'Licking and Rubbing' - This Week in WordPress 373

'Licking and Rubbing' - This Week in WordPress 373 ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Ya6u3YFESmg/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** ['Licking and Rubbing' - This Week in WordPress 373](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya6u3YFESmg) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: #wordpress-core #plugin-security #collaboration #custom-post-types #gutenberg > author: Nathan Wrigley > source: WP Builds > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya6u3YFESmg > date created: 2024-05-11 09:00 > > # 🏷️ Title: Licking and rubbing - This Week in WordPress 373 >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Monitor WP Beacon for plugin security updates — supply chain protection #plugin-security - [H2] Follow WordPress 7.0 release changes — drops real-time collaboration #wordpress-core - [H3] Research custom post types implementation — may come to core soon #gutenberg ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [[#📝 Summary]] - [[#📖 Main Content]] - [[#🗒️ Notes]] - [[#📚 References]] - [[#🗣️ Paraphrase]] - [[#📰 Newsletter]] - [[#✅ Action Items]] - [[#🧪 Hypotheses]] - [[#📊 Methodology]] - [[#❓ Questions]] - [[#🔮 Future Research]] - [[#💡 Implications]] - [[#🧠 Learning Styles Assessment]] - [[#📊 Accessibility Assessment]] - [[#🌍 DEIB Assessment]] - [[#✅ Logical Validity]] - [[#🛡️ DARVO Analysis]] - [[#🎯 Conclusion]] ### 🔗 References - [WP Builds](https://wpbuilds.com) - [The Guild by Remus](https://remus.ca/announcing-the-guild) - [WP Beacon](https://wpbeacon.com) ## 📝 Summary - WordPress 7.0 drops real-time collaboration feature due to performance concerns - Custom post types UI appears in Gutenberg, sparking discussion about core inclusion - WP Beacon launches to monitor WordPress plugin supply chain security - The Guild by Remus announces comprehensive WordPress training platform - Release date for WordPress 7.0 confirmed for May 20th, 2024 ## 📖 Main Content This episode covers major WordPress developments including the removal of real-time collaboration from WordPress 7.0 due to hosting infrastructure concerns, the emergence of custom post types UI in Gutenberg plugin suggesting core inclusion, and new security initiatives. The discussion reveals tensions between innovation and stability in WordPress core development, particularly around hosting provider concerns and performance impacts. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/Ya6u3YFESmg?t=0) — [H1] Episode Introduction and Housekeeping - Key idea: Setting up episode format and introducing guests - Evidence: "This is WP Builds this week in WordPress show episode number 373" #### ⏱️ [02:15](https://youtu.be/Ya6u3YFESmg?t=135) — [H2] Guest Introductions and AI Tool Discussion - Key idea: Introducing panelists and discussing Whisper Flow productivity tool - Evidence: "I one week in, I cannot imagine living without it now" #### ⏱️ [05:30](https://youtu.be/Ya6u3YFESmg?t=330) — [H1] The Guild Launch Announcement by Remus - Key idea: New comprehensive WordPress training platform announcement - Evidence: "The guild is essentially my answer to this where I will provide a space to discuss these things" #### ⏱️ [08:45](https://youtu.be/Ya6u3YFESmg?t=525) — [H2] Guild Structure and Philosophy - Key idea: Focus on quality education without fluff - Evidence: "This is not another Slack or Discord but a place where we tune in to learn" #### ⏱️ [12:20](https://youtu.be/Ya6u3YFESmg?t=740) — [H1] WordPress 7.0 Date Confirmation - Key idea: WordPress 7.0 release date set for May 20th, 2024 - Evidence: "WordPress 7.0 release date confirmed for May 20th" #### ⏱️ [15:00](https://youtu.be/Ya6u3YFESmg?t=900) — [H1] Real-Time Collaboration Removed from WordPress 7.0 - Key idea: Matt Mullenweg personally removes RTC due to technical concerns - Evidence: "Matt Mullenweg has personally made the decision to remove real time collaboration" #### ⏱️ [18:30](https://youtu.be/Ya6u3YFESmg?t=1110) — [H2] Technical Challenges of Real-Time Collaboration - Key idea: Hosting providers struggled with infrastructure requirements - Evidence: "Early testing by hosting providers revealed the feature added too many requests per user" #### ⏱️ [22:15](https://youtu.be/Ya6u3YFESmg?t=1335) — [H2] Community Reaction to RTC Removal - Key idea: Mixed reactions but general agreement it was right decision - Evidence: "I think it's the right call" - Remus #### ⏱️ [26:40](https://youtu.be/Ya6u3YFESmg?t=1600) — [H1] Custom Post Types UI in Gutenberg - Key idea: Custom post types interface appears in Gutenberg plugin - Evidence: "There was a Gutenberg release last week that has a full taxonomy creation screen" #### ⏱️ [30:10](https://youtu.be/Ya6u3YFESmg?t=1810) — [H2] Custom Fields Discussion - Key idea: Call for custom fields to accompany custom post types - Evidence: "A custom post site without custom fields is just a renamed post" #### ⏱️ [34:25](https://youtu.be/Ya6u3YFESmg?t=2065) — [H2] Historical Context of Content Types - Key idea: Comparison to Drupal's implementation from 2014 - Evidence: "This was done 12 years ago in Drupal" #### ⏱️ [38:50](https://youtu.be/Ya6u3YFESmg?t=2330) — [H1] WP Beacon Security Initiative - Key idea: Austin Ginder launches plugin supply chain monitoring - Evidence: "113,006 plugins are currently being watched" #### ⏱️ [42:30](https://youtu.be/Ya6u3YFESmg?t=2550) — [H2] AI-Powered Security Analysis - Key idea: Using AI to detect plugin ownership changes and security issues - Evidence: "This is a wonderful wonderful usage of what AI can do" #### ⏱️ [45:15](https://youtu.be/Ya6u3YFESmg?t=2715) — [H2] Supply Chain Attack Examples - Key idea: Real examples of plugin hijacking through ownership transfers - Evidence: "Plugin had been bought and nothing had changed for eight months except this back door" ## 📚 References - [WordPress 7.0 Release Schedule](https://make.wordpress.org/core/) - [Gutenberg 23.1 Release Notes](https://github.com/WordPress/gutenberg) - [Yoast Custom Fields Blog Post](https://joost.blog/) - [WP Beacon Security Monitoring](https://wpbeacon.com/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - WordPress 7.0 will release May 20th without real-time collaboration due to hosting infrastructure concerns - Custom post types interface in Gutenberg suggests core inclusion with calls for accompanying custom fields - WP Beacon launches AI-powered monitoring of WordPress plugin supply chain security ## 📰 Newsletter Major WordPress developments this week! WordPress 7.0 releases May 20th but drops the highly anticipated real-time collaboration feature due to hosting performance concerns. Meanwhile, custom post types UI appears in Gutenberg, potentially bringing this long-requested feature to core. For security, check out WP Beacon's new plugin supply chain monitoring. These changes reflect WordPress's careful balance between innovation and stability. Resources: [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [Developer Docs](https://developer.wordpress.org/), [WP-CLI](https://wp-cli.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### WordPress - Core: Monitor custom post types integration timeline and implementation - Core Performance: Assess real-time collaboration infrastructure requirements - Security: Integrate supply chain monitoring capabilities - Plugins: Review ownership transfer notification systems ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Real-time collaboration will return in WordPress 7.1 with better infrastructure support - Custom post types in core will reduce reliance on third-party plugins significantly - Plugin supply chain security will become a major focus area for WordPress.org - Hosting providers will need to adapt infrastructure for future collaboration features ### 📊 Methodology - Monitor Gutenberg plugin releases for custom post types development - Track hosting provider feedback on real-time collaboration requirements - Analyze WP Beacon findings for supply chain security patterns ### ❓ Questions - How will custom post types integration affect existing plugin ecosystems? - What infrastructure changes do hosting providers need for real-time features? - Can WordPress.org integrate supply chain monitoring natively? ### 🔮 Future Research - Custom fields implementation strategy alongside custom post types - Alternative approaches to real-time collaboration infrastructure - Automated plugin security monitoring integration possibilities ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Developers should prepare for core custom post types migration - Policy: Plugin ownership transfers need better transparency requirements - Security: Supply chain monitoring becomes essential for WordPress sites - Education: Training needed on new core content creation features ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Grade 12 #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Screenshots of Gutenberg interface, WP Beacon dashboard - Improve: Workflow diagrams for custom post types, security monitoring visuals #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Podcast format with detailed discussions - Improve: Audio summaries of key decisions and technical explanations #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Technical terminology explanations, analogies to Google Docs - Improve: Glossary of WordPress development terms #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Plugin testing examples, hands-on security monitoring - Improve: Step-by-step guides for custom post types setup #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Technical decision reasoning, performance impact analysis - Improve: Decision trees for feature implementation, cost-benefit matrices #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community discussion format, multiple perspectives - Improve: Collaborative decision-making examples, stakeholder impact analysis #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual analysis of technical decisions - Improve: Self-assessment tools for security monitoring, independent research prompts #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Ecosystem thinking about WordPress plugin relationships - Improve: Environmental impact considerations of hosting infrastructure ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, descriptive timestamps - Improve: Better alt text for interface screenshots, ARIA labels for complex discussions #### Keyboard navigation - Present: YouTube video controls accessible via keyboard - Improve: Transcript navigation shortcuts, topic jumping functionality #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard video player meets contrast requirements - Improve: High contrast mode for video player interface #### Media and captions - Present: Audio content with full transcript provided - Improve: Time-synced captions, downloadable transcript formats ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Global WordPress community perspective, international hosting concerns - Improve: Multi-language plugin security considerations, regional hosting differences #### Inclusive language - Present: Technical terms explained, jargon defined in context - Improve: Plain language summaries for complex technical decisions #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Structured discussion format, clear topic transitions - Improve: Visual topic indicators, content chunking for easier processing #### Representation - Present: Multiple viewpoints on technical decisions, diverse expertise - Improve: Include perspectives from different WordPress user types ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Technical constraints lead to feature removal decision - Inductive strength: Pattern recognition in plugin security threats - Causal reasoning: Hosting infrastructure limitations cause performance issues - Analogical strength: Google Docs comparison for collaboration expectations #### Fallacies - Appeal to authority: Matt Mullenweg's decision accepted without technical analysis - False dilemma: Suggestion that features are either perfect or removed entirely #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Conversational but technically informed, balanced perspective on controversial decisions ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No significant denial patterns observed - Attack: No attacks on community members or critics - Reverse victim/offender: No victim/offender reversals detected - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Factual discussion with appropriate humor, technical focus ## 🎯 Conclusion WordPress continues balancing innovation with stability, as seen in the real-time collaboration removal and custom post types addition. The community's focus on security through initiatives like WP Beacon demonstrates maturation of the ecosystem. These developments highlight the complex technical and social considerations in open source CMS evolution. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### [H1] Real-time collaboration requires infrastructure beyond typical WordPress hosting > [!quote] This Week in WordPress 373 by Nathan Wrigley via WP Builds. Published 2024-05-11. > "Early testing by hosting providers revealed the feature added too many requests per user" Technical requirements exceed current hosting capabilities for real-time features. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/Ya6u3YFESmg?t=1110) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_rtc_infrastructure ### [H2] Custom post types need accompanying custom fields for completeness > [!quote] This Week in WordPress 373 > "A custom post site without custom fields is just a renamed post" Content type functionality requires both structure and field definitions. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/Ya6u3YFESmg?t=1810) #xref ID:rw_cpt_fields ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) #### [Z1] AI excels at bulk analysis tasks humans cannot scale - Scope: Plugin security monitoring across entire WordPress repository - Pointer: 42:30 WP Beacon discussion - Links: [[AI-Applications]] [[Security-Monitoring]] #### [Z2] Feature removal preserves ecosystem stability over innovation - Scope: WordPress core development philosophy - Pointer: 15:00 RTC removal announcement - Links: [[WordPress-Core]] [[Technical-Debt]] ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue - [F1] Research Whisper Flow productivity tool — voice-to-text efficiency #fleeting #inbox - [F2] Follow Guild launch timeline — comprehensive training platform #fleeting #inbox - [F3] Monitor WordPress 7.1 collaboration plans — feature may return #fleeting #inbox --- ## Full Transcript [00:04] It's time for This week in WordPress, [00:06] episode number 373 [00:09] entitled Licking and Rubbing. It was [00:13] recorded on Monday the 11th of May 2026. [00:16] My name's Nathan Wrigley and today I'll [00:18] be joined by Remice, by Steve Burge, and [00:21] by Ree Wyn. I would like to extend my [00:24] thanks to Steve Burge for helping me [00:26] during this weekend set up the show [00:27] notes. Normally I do that myself but he [00:29] stepped in because I was unable to. And [00:32] so a lot of what we're talking about [00:33] today is because of him. So what do we [00:36] talk about? Well to begin with WordPress [00:38] 7.0 it obviously had been delayed and [00:41] now the option of collaborative editing [00:44] that has been dropped and until some [00:46] undetermined future point. Maybe we'll [00:48] see that during 7.1 but for now it has [00:51] gone. We also talk about a new whole [00:55] raft of things which may drop in [00:57] WordPress in the near future. Possibly [01:00] custom post types and if we have custom [01:02] post types, should we have custom fields [01:04] as well? There seems to be an awful lot [01:06] of preparatory work dropping in the [01:08] Gutenberg plug-in and its latest update. [01:11] We get to talk about events. We get to [01:14] talk a lot about AI and how AI is really [01:17] shaping up to make WordPress extremely [01:20] exciting in the near future. We talk [01:22] about desktop mode which is a new idea. [01:26] The idea of putting little windows [01:28] inside your WordPress website so that in [01:31] effect it's like dragging windows on [01:33] your operating system. We talk about [01:35] that and so much more and it's all [01:38] coming up next on this week in [01:40] WordPress. Good morning, good afternoon, [01:43] good evening wherever you are in the [01:44] world. This is WP Builds this week in [01:47] WordPress show episode number 373. [01:51] We're doing this live. We always do. Um [01:53] but the intention really is to get it [01:55] shoved out into your podcast player of [01:57] choice tomorrow morning. That's [01:58] typically what we do. But um we welcome [02:01] your comments. The best way you're going [02:03] to be able to do that little bit of [02:04] housekeeping at the beginning um is to [02:06] is to go to the URL where we embed this. [02:09] It looks like that. wpbuilds.comlive. [02:13] Once more, wpbuilds.comlive. [02:16] If you go there, there's a YouTube video [02:18] embedded. And then next to it is [02:20] actually that's not true. It's not a [02:22] YouTube video that's embedded. I'll say [02:23] more about that in a minute, but there [02:25] is a YouTube embed of the comments. So, [02:28] if you've got a Google account, then you [02:30] can comment over there like you would do [02:31] on YouTube. But if you don't have a [02:33] Google account, you still want to [02:35] comment, there's a black button, top [02:37] right of the player. It says live chat, [02:39] I believe. Click that and you don't have [02:41] to be logged into anything. You just [02:42] type your name in and and we can receive [02:44] your comments that way. So, there you [02:46] go. Send your um you know, send your [02:49] colleagues and what have you to that [02:50] page and hopefully uh if you put a [02:52] comment, we'll get it onto the screen. [02:54] That would be the idea. Anyway, uh in [02:57] order to make this less boring, because [02:59] if it was just me, it' be pretty boring. [03:03] I'm joined by a bunch of people who are [03:06] much more exciting than I am. So, let's [03:07] go around the housing. We'll start [03:09] there. We'll start with Remus. Remus, if [03:12] I could only just slide my hand down [03:14] there, I could just [03:18] little bit of rubbing there. Um, how you [03:20] doing, Remus? [03:21] >> That felt very inappropriate. [03:23] >> Yes, it really did in the audio. Yeah. [03:26] >> Oh, now that you said it, [03:29] it really did. His eyes have gone really [03:32] wide. [03:32] >> And I'm I'm really happy that this time [03:35] I wasn't the one. So [03:36] >> yeah, that's right. That's right. How [03:39] you doing anyway? You all right? [03:40] >> I'm well. I'm well. Thank you. [03:42] >> Good. Good. We'll get on to some things [03:43] Remus has launched in the recent past in [03:45] a moment, but I'll just read the bio for [03:48] Remus out. So there he is. Remus Dice is [03:50] a WordPress performance specialist. He [03:52] co-founded Scample, which is a site [03:54] health and performance monitoring tool, [03:56] and he runs the within WordPress, uh, [03:59] which is a podcast, but also it's now [04:01] the home to the guild. We'll look at [04:04] that in just a minute. uh which [04:06] alongside doing courses they have a [04:08] newsletter. There's a podcast for those [04:09] serious about building better WordPress [04:11] sites. He also runs truer than North was [04:15] which is a strategic guidance service [04:17] for companies in the WordPress world for [04:19] making the right digital sorry the right [04:21] technical and ecosystem decisions. So [04:24] it's a pleasure having you on once more [04:26] RMA. Thank you so much. [04:28] >> Happy to be here. [04:29] >> Thank you. Over there first time. Nice. [04:33] Uh, is Ree. How you doing, Reese? Win. [04:36] >> I'm doing good. I'm doing good. Yes. [04:38] >> I'm not going to make any comments about [04:39] like robbing anything this [04:41] >> No, I mean I've already gone like bright [04:42] red already. Just had to mute the [04:45] microphone for a few minutes. [04:47] >> No, I'm never going to let it down. Uh, [04:49] Ree is joining us. Um, I don't know, [04:50] maybe the 10th time or something like [04:52] that. Has been on the show many times [04:53] before. So, it's an absolute pleasure uh [04:56] having you back. Reese W is a Welsh [04:58] freelance WordPress developer living in [05:01] northwest England. He co-organizes the [05:03] Manchester WordPress user group, writes [05:05] WordPress plugins, and speaks at events. [05:08] His work tends to focus on performance, [05:10] SEO, and general backend WordPress and [05:12] Woo Commerce development for small and [05:14] medium-siz businesses and charities. You [05:17] can find his WordPress services [05:18] newsletter and plugin at this is not [05:22] easy to say, will you say it? [05:24] >> Uh, sorry. Yeah, dwin.com. [05:26] >> Okay, dwin.com. dwin nhys.com. [05:32] Uh, or find his less focused ramblings [05:34] and links to whatever social profiles [05:36] are popular at ree.wales. [05:40] So that's rh yys.wales, the name of the [05:43] country, not be animal. I don't suppose [05:45] there is a domain with wh there should [05:47] be. [05:48] >> There probably is. [05:49] >> You can get fish. I know that that's [05:52] been popular for some. Does anybody [05:54] actually own a doish domain? Whale is [05:57] not a fish. [05:58] >> Oh, no. [06:00] >> Just to kind of put my glasses up. [06:04] >> I was going to say the same thing, but [06:06] >> Oh, okay. Uh, but anyway, thank you for [06:09] joining us, uh, Ree. And, uh, last, but [06:11] by no means least, in the corner there, [06:13] we got Steve Burge. Hello, Steve. [06:16] >> Hey, [06:17] >> nice to have [06:17] >> I would like I'd like a Penguin domain [06:20] if anyone wants to make them available. [06:22] Yeah, actually that would be a good [06:24] especially given that you're plugging um [06:26] your business plugin, you know, the uh [06:29] the publish press plugin. That's a [06:31] penguin for the mascot, isn't it? So, [06:32] that'd be quite nice. Yeah. [06:34] >> Oh, penguin. Publish press.penguin. Um [06:37] I've got to say a special thanks to [06:39] Steve because for reasons I won't bore [06:41] everybody with. I um I had to take a bit [06:42] of time out this weekend and uh Steve [06:45] was very gracious with his time. He [06:47] stepped in and coordinated a bunch of [06:49] the show notes that I would usually do [06:51] over weekend and uh I'm very grateful to [06:53] doing that and um [06:54] >> it's easy. It's been a crazy week in [06:56] WordPress. [06:58] >> Find out there really has been quite a [07:00] lot going on and not going on as the [07:02] case may be. So here's the bio for [07:03] Steve. Steve is the founder of Publish [07:06] Press. Uh he's from England and Wales. I [07:09] I don't know that you get to be both, [07:10] but there you go. Okay. How do you [07:13] >> Hey, I wanted to make G Reese feel more [07:14] home. [07:14] >> Oh, I see. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Uh but he [07:17] lives in Florida now. Um his old man [07:20] yelling at cloud opinion is that we [07:23] should read one book for every new AI [07:26] tool we adopt. Oh, I like that. [07:28] >> I like strategy. Every time we start [07:30] something AI based, we should uh read a [07:33] book. Last week on the podcast, we had [07:36] Cammy McNamara and Cammy McNamara put [07:38] under our noses a tool called Whisper [07:41] Flow. I don't know if you've come across [07:42] this. Have you come across Whisper Flow? [07:45] Have you Have you tried it? [07:48] Any of you? [07:49] >> I I've seen it. It rings a bell. Remind [07:51] me what it does. [07:52] >> Okay, so I'll tell you what it does. It [07:53] It just sits in this case on my Mac, but [07:57] it'll do it the same thing on your [07:58] Android or your iOS or Windows or Linux [08:01] or whatever it may be. It sits there and [08:03] you see nothing. There's nothing to see [08:06] here. But then you press a button on [08:08] your keyboard and it listens to what [08:11] you're saying and Grammarly style [08:15] corrects what you've said and the minute [08:17] you let go of the button it drops it [08:18] wherever your cursor is. And I thought [08:21] to myself, I was fairly skeptical. I [08:23] thought, "Yeah, that looks really [08:25] interesting. Oh man, I one week in, I [08:29] cannot imagine living without it now. [08:31] It's utterly ridiculous how productive [08:34] it is. You imagine the amount of times [08:36] that you type. Like you may be a quick [08:38] typer. I'm reasonably quick, but you [08:41] will see like whole minutes being shaved [08:44] off in in an hour. Like you might say 10 [08:46] minutes an hour just from that simple. [08:48] >> It's crazy. [08:49] >> It's more I use Voice Inc. which is a [08:51] similar tool. [08:52] >> Y [08:53] >> uh and it allows me to even add AI uh [08:56] stuff on top of it. So whatever I say [08:58] gets cleaned up and [09:00] >> Yeah. brought back to bullet points [09:02] whatever I have in my plan. [09:04] >> Yeah. Well, this is the same in that you [09:06] can you can paraphrase things and you [09:08] can say like you know begin bullet [09:10] points and end bullet points and it will [09:12] correct it will put commas in and [09:14] question marks and if you you know if [09:16] there's a long pause with an or an R or [09:18] clearly like garbled sentence structure [09:20] it just fixes all that right up. I was [09:23] really skeptical and Cammy all I can say [09:26] is I'm I was wrong. You were absolutely [09:29] right. It is an absolutely brilliant [09:30] tool. There's loads. I imagine we'll see [09:32] a whole boatload of these coming out in [09:33] the near future. But anyway, I don't [09:35] know where I got that. Oh, yeah. I know. [09:36] AI tool. So, now I need to read a book, [09:39] Steve. [09:40] >> Yeah. [09:40] >> Um, okay. I'll read one of the books [09:43] that you've sent me through the post. [09:45] Steve's re Whenever Steve's been on a [09:46] podcast appearance with me, I receive a [09:49] book uh through the mail. He sends [09:51] >> I mean it. We should read more books. I [09:54] love AI. Hey, I love our tools, but at [09:55] the same time, we're offloading our [09:57] brain to these external servers, and we [10:00] need to work on our own brains, too. [10:02] >> So, I'm going to Word Camp Europe in a [10:05] few weeks time. And I've decided that [10:08] every time I go to one of those kind of [10:10] events, the best way for me to find out [10:12] about what the city or wherever it is is [10:14] like is to get a book, an actual book. I [10:17] I just somehow can't pass those websites [10:20] like Trip Advisor or whatever. So, I've [10:22] bought a little crackoff book and it [10:25] should be arriving in the next day. You [10:26] know, like a little lonely planet theme [10:28] guide. So, uh if anybody's at Word Camp [10:30] Europe and wants some advice, come and [10:31] take my book. Uh [10:34] >> I'm going to trust a Polish person [10:35] living in [10:37] >> Yeah, I mean I mean [10:40] crack off. So, [10:42] >> okay. [10:44] >> This is me though wanting to get in [10:46] front of um just, you know, some ideas, [10:49] idea generation. And I'll tell you, have [10:52] you seen the salt mines near Kov? Has [10:55] anybody seen the pictures of those yet? [10:57] >> Seen the pictures? [10:58] >> Like, have you been? [11:00] >> Yeah, it's just salt, man. [11:01] >> Yeah. Is it as good as they look? [11:02] Because to me, it looks like Kazadum out [11:04] of Lord of the Rings or something like [11:07] that. [11:07] >> It's a small piece of advice. If you do [11:10] go on the tour, [11:11] >> Yeah. they will ask you loads of [11:12] questions. [11:13] >> Okay. Every single answer for every [11:16] single question is solved. [11:19] >> Okay. [11:21] just [11:22] >> but yeah it's they're really really [11:25] good. [11:25] >> I'm really looking forward to that [11:27] though. Anyway, hopefully the book will [11:29] give me more ideas like that. Right, [11:30] let's go through some of the comments [11:32] just quickly to say hi. Um Web Scrum. So [11:35] that's Imran. Hello. Nice to have you [11:37] with us. He's just saying good [11:38] afternoon. We're also joined by [11:39] Losmatic. Hello. Uh Elliot Sauby down [11:43] the road from me. Oh, and here it comes. [11:45] My humiliation again. [11:48] Every time this chap joins the call, I [11:51] can never remember his real name. And we [11:53] go [11:54] >> von Inc. [11:56] >> That's what I was going to say. Yeah, [11:57] that exactly what Rimas just said. [11:59] >> Hello. [11:59] >> Is it Gerard? It's Gerard. I've [12:01] remembered it's Gerard now. [12:02] >> It's not Gerard. It's Groat. [12:04] >> Okay. Okay. Okay. In English speak, it's [12:07] Gerard. But I remembered independently. [12:09] I'm not as old and as frail as I [12:10] thought. Um Marcus Bette's joining us. [12:13] Look, look. He says, "I'm here, right?" [12:14] Oh, good. Well done. He's subtracted an [12:17] hour. He's been showing up late and now [12:18] he's figured out the the daylight [12:20] saving. Hello wonderful people. Hello. [12:22] Oh, that's you, Steve. Um, Roy Tank [12:24] says, "Greetings. Who's this?" Oh, [12:26] that's Remus. Patricia says, "Hello." [12:29] Um, and maybe see you there, Nathan. Oh, [12:32] yeah. In the salt mines. Yeah, let's go [12:35] together and lick as much salt as we [12:37] possibly can. That's That's what you're [12:39] supposed to do, right? Lick [12:42] >> Can we already Can we already name this [12:44] episode? So inappropriate. and rubbing. [12:49] >> Rubbing inappropriately. Yeah. [12:51] >> Yeah. Okay. I'm going to write that [12:53] down. Right. Let's begin. Okay. Licking [12:55] and rubbing. That's the going to be this [12:57] episode, I think. Let me share my [12:58] screen. Here we go. This is our WP [13:01] builds. If you fancy um keeping in touch [13:04] with what we do, put your email address [13:05] into that field and we'll send send you [13:07] two emails a week. One when we spin this [13:10] out tomorrow morning. I'll just pull the [13:11] audio out of it basically and send it [13:13] out as a podcast episode. Uh, so you can [13:16] you can hear us talking about licking [13:18] and rubbing. Uh, how many more times can [13:20] I say that during this episode and will [13:23] Google enjoy the transcript? Um, but [13:26] also we do a podcast episode every [13:28] Thursday. We'll send you an email about [13:30] that as well. And this week, uh, I [13:32] actually ch talked with a chap called, [13:34] um, Giles Beckley, um, who has a [13:38] plug-in. Well, it's not really a plug, [13:39] well, it is a plug-in, but he's got an [13:41] e-commerce platform called Goose [13:42] Commerce, but interestingly, it's built [13:45] on top of Elementor, and he's got a [13:47] desktop app. So, go and check that out. [13:49] I'd never heard of it before. Goose [13:51] Commerce. Right, there we go. There's [13:53] our episodes for this week. First up, [13:56] uh, I allow the guests to bring their [13:58] own bits and pieces. Steve has got quite [14:00] a lot that he wanted to share this week [14:02] and I was grateful for that. But the [14:03] first one is uh Remus. There's no point [14:06] in me doing this one Remus, is there? [14:08] Because it's it's your thing and it's [14:09] your brand new exciting shiny thing. [14:11] Tell us about the guild. [14:14] >> Well, it is my way of uh fixing what [14:19] I've seen as a gap in knowledge for a [14:22] very very long time. um ranging from [14:26] best practices to just fully [14:28] understanding the concept of uh security [14:31] performance uh build uh procedures what [14:36] have you. Uh and on the other end [14:39] there's stuff being shipped with new [14:41] versions of WordPress all the time. And [14:44] um it for most people it's it's it's a [14:48] bit of a task to dive in and figure out [14:50] what these changes are, what they mean, [14:51] what what you can build with it, all [14:53] that sort of stuff. And uh the guild is [14:57] essentially my answer to this where I [14:59] will uh provide a space or spaces I [15:03] should actually say uh to discuss these [15:05] things and um with the ultimate goal of [15:09] uh becoming a better builder, developer [15:13] or however you want to quantify yourself [15:16] uh within WordPress. [15:18] So, you're beginning or I don't know [15:21] quite how this binds into that, but I [15:23] know that you've got a course which is [15:25] out already and I know that you're a [15:26] long way through the the process of [15:28] getting course number two. [15:30] >> Yes. [15:31] >> Um out. Is that is that kind of the [15:33] fulcrum around which this whole thing [15:34] hands? Is it primarily a coursebased [15:37] system or is it going to be more than [15:38] that? Okay. [15:39] >> No, it's going to be much more than [15:40] that. So, uh the guild will also give [15:42] you access to all the courses that I'm [15:44] releasing. So make WordPress fast is the [15:46] first one and uh Cloudflare for [15:48] WordPress is the second one I'm working [15:49] on. Uh the third one will be a security [15:51] related one. But the goal is for that to [15:54] be part of the community of the uh the [15:58] space as a whole the guild. Uh but [16:01] there'll be uh there will be workshops [16:03] there will be uh mini courses for [16:06] certain topics or what what have you. Uh [16:09] but there's mostly a lot of uh sharing [16:12] of knowledge. So [16:13] >> right [16:14] >> uh I have a dedicated space in there [16:15] that is just about you sharing your win. [16:17] So what did you figure it out? How did [16:19] you you know uh [16:22] >> found a way out of the problem you had [16:24] to solve and please share that with you [16:26] because that's how we learn. And um my [16:29] goal for this is especially I I think I [16:31] say it somewhere but uh this is not [16:34] channel or uh you know um or I not a [16:38] forum not another Slack or Discord but a [16:40] place where we tune in to learn to [16:43] become a better version of ourselves. [16:46] >> Yeah I remember reading I don't know if [16:48] it was this piece that but there was [16:49] another piece which you put out perhaps [16:52] after this one or perhaps before I can't [16:54] remember before this one. [16:55] >> Yeah. The bit that stopped with that was [16:57] the if if you know Remus, you'll know [17:00] that he's like a no how to describe you [17:03] like no fluff basically. You know, you [17:04] want to get to the heart of the matter [17:06] quickly and get on with things. And it [17:08] felt like there was quite a lot of that [17:09] coming through in the words that you [17:10] wrote. [17:11] >> You um you don't want it to be like [17:13] another Facebook group where it's just [17:14] sort of yada yada what's the favorite [17:16] page builder sort of thing. It's much [17:18] more [17:18] >> Yeah. [17:19] >> No. So my whole goal is for if you if [17:22] you're if you're building something the [17:24] best way you are going to build this and [17:26] I think that people in this space can [17:28] confirm that currently uh the better [17:30] your product is is based on the better [17:32] you understand the tools you're working [17:34] with uh as well as the CMS and its [17:36] options and all that. So the better you [17:38] understand that the better the quality [17:40] of your product is the easier it is is [17:42] to maintain it and to build upon it and [17:44] etc etc. [17:47] Um, and is it open now or because I'm [17:49] seeing the announcement post, not [17:51] >> I'm announcing that I am going to Well, [17:53] I'm in the middle of building it out. [17:55] Um, but obviously I wanted to gauge some [17:57] interest. Um, which has been [17:59] overwhelmingly positive. So, um, very [18:02] happy with that. [18:03] >> Um, the piece that we're looking at on [18:05] the screen, obviously if you're [18:06] listening to the audio, it makes it [18:07] somewhat harder, but it's remaster.com [18:10] and then slannouncingthegild [18:14] and those words are hyphenated. So, [18:16] announcing hyphen the hyphen guild and [18:19] um on there do we have like a sign up or [18:23] an intake form where you can [18:24] >> Yeah. At the bottom I link to um the [18:27] where you can uh sign up or express your [18:30] interest. Yes. [18:31] >> Okay. All right. So, um we go um [18:34] announcing the guild from Rimcaster [18:36] Brace. Very nice. Good luck. [18:38] >> Thank you. [18:39] >> Good luck. Good luck. Is it going to be [18:41] bound to the if I again if I remember [18:43] rightly when course two drops this opens [18:45] or something? [18:46] >> Yeah. [18:47] >> Okay. Right. Right. So you want it. [18:50] >> This has me really curious. We ran a [18:53] training company for like 10 years and [18:55] the first five years was kind of in [18:57] person. We'd fly somewhere, be in [19:00] someone's office for a week and [19:02] physically have them in the room. And [19:05] then that flipped to the traditional [19:07] online video courses and [19:11] both of them kind of ended up running [19:14] their kind of running out of steam a [19:16] little bit. Um [19:19] the video course side was swamped with [19:21] all the YouTube videos and I've always [19:23] been curious as to what the next [19:25] generation of training would look like [19:28] and this seems like a really interesting [19:29] attempt to to figure that out. [19:32] >> It is uh that Um, so I've done the same [19:36] thing uh the first part that you just [19:38] said. I've done training uh before I did [19:40] WordPress. I did a lot of uh this is I'm [19:43] really dating myself, but this is like [19:44] 25 years ago. Uh I did a lot of cohort [19:47] training. I did a lot of incomp [19:49] training, that sort of stuff. Um but [19:51] yeah, this is an attempt for me to sort [19:54] of bridge the continuous stuff [19:56] constantly being thrown into our [19:59] ecosystem. uh AI being the the hottest [20:02] thing currently, but uh related to that [20:04] is the APIs that we have or the the new [20:07] development tools over here and you know [20:09] all of that sort of stuff that just for [20:12] most people is too much to keep up with. [20:14] So my goal is to digest that into here's [20:17] what you just absolutely need to know in [20:19] the context of understanding best [20:21] practices. So uh if a tool is does [20:24] something really nice and shiny but it's [20:27] uh it's its promise is to be super [20:29] performant and it's not I'm not going to [20:31] mention it like I I keep a standard of [20:34] this is what uh [20:36] uh this these types of topics deserve [20:40] some guidance and uh there should be [20:42] less about it should be less about [20:45] everybody independently having to figure [20:48] out all the things and for the record I [20:49] I will be taking people other people's [20:51] content and put them in the guild and [20:54] pay them for it. So, it's not just going [20:55] to be it'll start with just me, but um [20:58] you know, once this has been running for [21:00] a year, I I hope to at least have two [21:02] other people's input in there as well in [21:05] whatever form that may look. [21:06] >> Nice. [21:07] >> But I I really want to grow this into uh [21:11] a top knowledge, best practices, [21:13] understanding, no no riff raff, no [21:15] fluff, just straight to the point of [21:18] this is what you need. And um with a [21:21] strong focus on agencies as well, right? [21:23] So there will be an agency tier which as [21:26] an agency you can subscribe to and you [21:28] you can have everybody in there learning [21:30] and processing whatever there is new to [21:32] process. [21:34] >> Nice. That's really nice. Um so I think [21:38] we probably captured it by now, but just [21:40] one more time uh remaster.comthegild [21:45] uh is the URL. If like you I don't know [21:48] you're listening to this in the car or [21:49] something like that and your memory [21:51] won't capture that the if you search for [21:54] this episode on WP build so 373 all the [21:57] links that we discussed today will be in [21:59] there somewhere. So just go to that page [22:00] and then I don't know search for remus [22:04] kus and it'll be in there I'm sure. Okay [22:06] let's move on. So now we're going to [22:08] drop into a whole bunch of WordPress [22:10] stuff. Normally I drop the links in, but [22:13] as I said, Steve's kindly stepped in and [22:15] sort of helped me out, so I'm sort of [22:16] playing a bit of catchup this time [22:18] around. First one then um is all about [22:23] the the new date for WordPress 7. And [22:26] we'll get on to the um the the fun stuff [22:29] that's happening or not in seven in a [22:31] moment. But really, Steve, I think is [22:34] this one just boiling down to where [22:36] where the new dates land, which is [22:38] basically the 20th of May with [22:40] everything coming backwards a week at a [22:42] time for that. Is this all you were [22:43] wanting to get out of this one? Just the [22:45] dates. [22:46] >> Yeah, that was the first link I could [22:47] find. Yeah. Shows the new date, which is [22:50] in what, 10 days? [22:51] >> Yeah, it's not far away, is it? Uh, [22:53] yeah, nine days actually. Uh, 20th of [22:55] May. So, it's coming fairly soon. And [22:59] somewhat surprisingly during the course [23:01] of this week, I've just changed the [23:03] article over. We're going to look at two [23:04] pieces, but they basically tell the same [23:06] story. Bit of a shock. Well, not maybe [23:09] not. I don't know. I know that you [23:12] particularly, Steve, have been following [23:13] this real time collaboration thing, [23:16] probably more closely than anybody else [23:18] that I know. Um, it sounded from the [23:21] bits and pieces that you were putting on [23:23] Twitter or wherever I was finding you, [23:25] you were increasingly kind of like [23:28] amazed by what was possible. I saw a few [23:31] videos where you were sort of fairly [23:32] buoyant about it. Um, and then closer to [23:35] the time obviously we had lots of [23:37] problems brewing. The long and the short [23:39] though is that in nine days time when [23:41] WordPress 7 uh is released, this thing [23:44] that we've been talking about for ages, [23:46] this Google Docs style real um time [23:49] editing [23:51] um sorry real time collaboration RTC is [23:54] is pulled. Um Matt Mulleng um has [23:58] personally made the decision to remove [24:00] real time collaboration and he was [24:03] citing concerns around surface area. I'm [24:06] not entirely sure what that means. Uh, [24:08] race conditions, server load, memory [24:11] efficiency, and recurring bugs found [24:14] through fuzz testing. Um, and says still [24:18] remains a real priority, but it's [24:21] definitely not being worked on for 7.0, [24:24] maybe 7.1. So, Steve, I'm going to drop [24:26] you right into this one to begin with. [24:28] Just tell us what your thoughts are [24:29] having watched this very, very closely. [24:32] Surprised or not? [24:35] it technically it's the most difficult [24:37] thing I've ever seen the WordPress [24:39] project attempt. That sounds big. I mean [24:42] we've built Gutenberg but you know other [24:45] people have built page edit page [24:47] builders before [24:49] but something like this I don't think [24:52] has ever shipped in an open source [24:53] project before. [24:56] The ability to update something in real [24:59] time across multiple users [25:04] has been done, I believe, by CK editor, [25:08] the kind of the tiny MCE alternative, [25:11] but they managed to solve it by having a [25:14] central server that connected almost [25:18] like like Google Docs does. there's [25:20] basically a central server that um all [25:23] the users connect to and that's like the [25:25] single source of truth. But I guess [25:28] that's kind of where I thought WordPress [25:30] would go. There might be a a central [25:32] server at WordPress.org or um say Jetack [25:37] or something like that. [25:39] >> Yeah. Yeah, [25:39] >> but they've attempted to do it [25:42] through through websockets and through [25:46] um [25:48] basically each site connecting to each [25:50] other and [25:53] it's I I'm a mediocre developer and I [25:58] know enough to know that it's a [26:00] monumental challenge to get it in there. [26:03] I'm surprised they've got it this close, [26:04] but am I surprised that it hasn't made [26:07] 7.0? [26:08] No. [26:09] >> No. Okay. I suppose the only thing [26:12] that's surprising is how close to the [26:13] wire it got actually in terms of dates [26:16] and times. You know, we were we were [26:18] very close at Word Camp Asia. Everybody [26:20] thought that that was the moment 7 was [26:22] going to drop. you know, full-sight [26:24] editing kind of made that be punted and [26:26] then the date got moved forward a little [26:28] bit and thought that there would be [26:30] enough time to do the work and the hosts [26:32] got involved with testing and let's just [26:34] move on quite quickly to the same story [26:38] only this time on um the repository. Um [26:42] this one's called Matt Mullen pulls real [26:44] time collaborative editing from [26:45] WordPress 7.0. Um and then the title [26:48] finishes off blames WP Engine [26:50] litigation. That's kind of like a minor [26:52] point in the story really, but same sort [26:54] of thing. Um Matt says that he's going [26:57] to take the heat for this because it was [26:58] sort of basically his decision. He's [27:00] decided, you know, I I'm going to wear [27:03] it. Um and now of course we've got the [27:06] process of kind of unpicking all of this [27:08] and making the release of 7.0 not have [27:11] the capability. So removing any features [27:13] that may be able to I don't know be [27:15] invoked accidentally or otherwise that [27:17] might switch fullsight editing um on and [27:21] I'll just read a couple of bits here [27:22] towards the middle of the article. [27:24] Realtime collaboration the centerpiece [27:25] of phase three of the Gutenberg road map [27:28] has been dogged by performance in [27:29] infrastructure challenges since it was [27:31] first flagged for possible inclusion in [27:33] WordPress 7.0 in November 2025. Moving [27:37] on a little bit. Early testing by [27:38] hosting providers re revealed the [27:40] feature added too many requests per [27:42] user. Pled too frequently created s [27:45] creating significant object caching [27:47] issues when built on post the post meta [27:51] table. And then there was a little [27:53] comment here from an anonymous hosting [27:55] provider member of staff. So, we don't [27:57] know who they are or which host they [27:59] work for, but an employee at a large [28:01] hosting company who was who asked not to [28:03] be named described months of scrambling [28:06] to assess real-time collaboration's [28:08] impact on their platform. And then to [28:10] quote them, RTC is a cool feature, but [28:13] it's quite a gift to but it's quite a [28:16] gift to get this reprieve from what from [28:18] worrying about its impact on hosting and [28:20] all of this rushing. The source said it [28:22] was the wrong approach and it needed so [28:23] much more time to bake, be tested, and [28:26] get hosts involved in confirming what [28:28] the impact would be. There's a lot more [28:31] to be said, but anyway, the long and the [28:33] short of that is that it's not happening [28:35] in seven. So, Ree Ramus, if you've got [28:37] anything you want to add, [28:39] >> I think it's the right call. [28:40] >> Yeah. [28:41] >> Okay. Um, [28:44] I still think that's not necessarily the [28:48] best thing to add to WordPress, but that [28:49] that's debatable. [28:51] Okay, [28:51] >> there's there's plenty of use cases [28:53] where it makes sense to have this. Uh I [28:55] think we touched this on the uh 371 uh [28:59] edition of this week in WordPress. Um [29:03] this is just me just saying I would much [29:05] rather have seen uh this type of effort [29:07] go into multilingualism. [29:09] >> Yeah. Okay. So swap those two around. [29:12] Yeah. Real time real time collaboration [29:14] comes after. Okay. Interesting. Um Ree, [29:17] anything on that? I mean, I think we're [29:19] going to touch on something. I think I [29:21] mean, further to what Steve said, I [29:23] mean, what this article talks about the [29:25] meta table and I I mean, I'll be honest, [29:28] when I first read it, I was like, "Oh, [29:31] yeah, that too." And I think there's [29:33] there's a lot of things in this where [29:35] it's like for Google Docs, which is [29:37] probably where most of us are familiar [29:39] with, you know, um, real time editor, [29:42] real time collaboration. It's for things [29:45] like that. it it it has the you know [29:48] it's just like a you know a word [29:50] document or or something of that nature [29:52] whereas there is so much that is [29:55] editable and can be editable within [29:57] WordPress that I just wouldn't know [30:00] where to begin [30:02] >> so yeah completely the right call [30:05] >> yeah it's it's kind of interesting as [30:07] well the expectation [30:09] would be Google Docs right you you'd [30:12] always be drawing a parallel to whether [30:14] it was as good as Google Docs. I think [30:16] everybody would do that. And anything [30:18] that wasn't as good good as Google Docs, [30:20] like that one change that never synced [30:23] or that that just locking up like one in [30:26] a hundred times or whatever it may be. [30:29] >> The comparison would simply be with [30:31] Google Docs all the time. And um you [30:33] can't live up to that, can you? Not [30:35] realistically. [30:36] >> Yeah. And I suppose also this is like [30:38] one of those things where it's like it [30:40] could it could work [30:42] but the second there's a problem the [30:45] problem is by the sounds of it is with [30:47] hosting like like by and large it's it's [30:50] the it's the hosting systems [30:51] >> WordPress will get the blame [30:53] >> like the blame will be oh what this [30:55] feature is broken in WordPress when it's [30:56] actually probably you know it's because [30:59] you need it the hosting and and I think [31:02] definitely a feature plugin because I [31:04] think the people who need Let's have [31:06] the, you know, the people who, you know, [31:09] will actually want this feature, [31:12] um, have it will have the [31:15] infrastructure, [31:16] >> right? [31:17] >> You know, and to set it up and to manage [31:19] it and keep it as a feature plug-in. [31:22] >> Okay. [31:23] >> Yeah. [31:24] >> So, toggle toggle on, toggle off, or [31:26] indeed pay for some API [31:29] that you can use to to take the grunt [31:32] out of this. Maybe, you know, maybe, you [31:35] know, integrate it in with something [31:36] like a jetpack just to kind of say like [31:38] we're going to use jetpack service to [31:40] because they've all set this up. I don't [31:41] know. [31:42] >> I mean, this is beyond what they [31:45] >> one of the curious things for me is I [31:47] genuinely don't know how many people [31:50] need it. Um, I know there's a lot of [31:52] people out there talking about, you [31:54] know, 2% seems to be being mentioned [31:56] quite a lot, two or 3%. I know that a [31:59] 100% of Google Doc users probably think [32:01] it's pretty great. Um, and presumably as [32:05] soon as as soon as WordPress masters [32:07] this and it's an actual thing and it [32:09] works, maybe a 100% of WordPress users [32:12] will think it's great as well. But I [32:14] don't know how many people need all of [32:16] this stuff in the background. Um, [32:20] >> I think that's a good remark because I [32:21] think it's we we first of all, we're not [32:24] tracking anything. So, we have [32:25] absolutely zero clue and there's going [32:28] to be tons of agencies once this is [32:30] released go like none of my clients and [32:32] use are using this and then there's tons [32:34] of agents we never hear online and [32:36] they're using it tons, right? There's no [32:38] way of telling what the actual [32:39] percentage is. But [32:40] >> yeah, [32:41] >> I do think this is a this is a feature [32:43] that once implemented and actually not [32:46] bogging the system down, which it [32:48] currently fully is doing, uh there's [32:51] going to be so many potential uses of [32:55] this particular feature that is that are [32:57] beyond our comprehension currently. I I [33:00] do think that's the case. [33:01] >> Yeah. Okay. So, once it's working and [33:03] everybody's happy, then maybe we'll [33:05] begin to invent ways to make it useful. [33:08] Yeah. This is not like post formats. [33:11] >> Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. All right. [33:14] >> Using those. [33:17] >> Using those. Okay. [33:19] >> I have in the corner there. Yeah. Uh [33:22] >> I've seen some talk of it like [33:24] collaboration then being used inside the [33:26] site editor. So people will be able to [33:28] work on a design together. [33:30] >> So you have comments on the header, [33:32] comments on the footer. Um, and then [33:34] also perhaps AI, you might have um be [33:38] able to collaborate with a a user or a [33:41] bot that's logged in as a user who's [33:43] working on something at the same time. [33:46] >> I I imagine that's actually pro probably [33:49] where it will be the most useful of all. [33:52] Um, [33:54] >> family bot is [33:55] >> right. Right. [33:56] >> While you're there, [33:57] >> yeah, you just want a little bit of data [33:59] about what you're doing. you know, does [34:00] this, you know, have you got any ways [34:02] that you can figure out that that block [34:04] over there could be improved? You know, [34:06] it was a terrible example, but when when [34:08] I first heard that that that character [34:12] in the collaboration system didn't have [34:14] to be a human, it did get the mind sort [34:16] of worring a little bit. Oh, actually, [34:18] okay, that's an interesting use case. [34:21] Okay, let's move on a little bit. So, [34:23] that's Anyway, there you go. 7.0 real [34:25] time uh collaboration gone. Not [34:27] shipping. Maybe 7.1. We'll see it. But [34:30] um now something something else that may [34:34] need to uh come into core or people have [34:37] been talking about for absolutely ages. [34:39] I came from Drupal when Drupal went from [34:43] version 7 to version 8. I don't know [34:45] when that was. I think it was about I [34:48] don't know 2014 or 2015 or something [34:51] like that. And at that point, uh, Drupal [34:55] for the longest period of time had [34:58] custom post types. They weren't called [35:00] that, but they were that. And, um, [35:03] custom fields. They weren't called that, [35:05] but they were that. That was all in [35:06] core. And when I came to WordPress for [35:09] the first time, I was a bit surprised, [35:11] frankly, that it wasn't there. Quickly [35:13] discovered, you know, a bunch of free, [35:14] incredibly useful plugins and a bunch of [35:16] paid, incredibly useful plugins that [35:18] satisfied that. But there seems to be a [35:21] move at the moment to uh to get a lot of [35:23] this stuff baked into core. Starting [35:25] with well this Steve again you dropped [35:28] this one in. Do you want to tell us and [35:30] we'll go through these articles that [35:31] relate to custom post types and custom [35:34] field. Should we start here? What's [35:35] going on with this one? [35:37] >> Good question. A lot of this has moved [35:38] fast. Um like we have a uh a taxonomy [35:44] plugin. Um it's called Taxo Press. that [35:47] allows you to to build taxonomies u and [35:51] use AI to scan posts and automatically [35:54] add the correct terms. So, I kind of [35:56] follow a lot of this stuff and [36:01] all of this kind of bypassed me that um [36:05] suddenly there was a Gutenberg release [36:08] last week that has a full taxonomy [36:11] creation screen inside there and there's [36:15] now content types I think in the [36:17] Goodutenberg plugin [36:19] >> and [36:20] I think Yoast uh used um used from Yoast [36:25] mentioned custom fields as an idea [36:28] that's already there on the GitHub [36:30] issue. This thing is moving fast. [36:32] >> Yeah, I think wasn't this like two weeks [36:34] in the making or something like that. [36:36] you know, more or less two weeks ago, [36:38] nobody was really talking about this. [36:40] And now, as you can see here in the in [36:43] in a version of WordPress, presumably [36:45] coming to you at some point in the near [36:47] future, if you've downloaded any kind [36:50] of, I don't know, plug-in which doesn't [36:53] really hijack the UI too much, allowing [36:55] you to create custom post types and [36:58] taxonies and things like that. Here we [36:59] are. we could see it, you know, um being [37:02] being put into the Gutenberg plug-in. [37:04] And uh Remus, you looks like you're [37:07] ready to say something. [37:08] >> I was going to say I I think you're I [37:10] think you're highlighting uh Yoast his [37:12] blog post as well uh where he says, [37:15] "Look, if we're doing this, please have [37:17] custom fields here in as well." [37:19] >> That is my my biggest remark. So I think [37:23] you know I I I've used CMBB CMBB2 [37:27] um [37:29] and for the most part uh ACF for any and [37:32] all of these types of functionalities. [37:34] I've always felt that this needed to be [37:36] core WordPress, but it needs to be [37:37] somewhat uh there needs to be some [37:39] guardrail so don't people don't just [37:42] >> you know go wild on creating the content [37:45] and we need to we need to solve that [37:47] problem as we're uh facilitating this [37:49] functionality. [37:51] Um but please if we're doing this [37:54] immediately have custom fields in there [37:56] as well. It just it's just silly to not [37:58] have this as one thing [38:00] >> in a sense. I've never really understood [38:03] why there's the separation of the two [38:05] things. Yeah, to me [38:07] >> they like a c like obviously in in the [38:11] language they're separate things but to [38:13] me I was even surprised by things like [38:16] the the webdev studios custom post types [38:19] UI that was the first plugin I ever came [38:21] across in WordPress that did custom post [38:23] and I remember thinking okay okay great [38:25] I've got a custom post type now I'll [38:27] drop in a bunch of fields no you won't [38:30] there aren't any available in that in [38:31] that plug-in you're going to have to do [38:33] it either programmatically or you're [38:34] going to have to go and find a different [38:35] plugin and then found that plugin. But [38:37] so you got this overlapping mesh of two [38:40] different things and it all seems like [38:42] just one thing, please. Let's just have [38:45] fields and [38:46] >> this is content enrichment. [38:47] >> Right, there you go. Let's call it that. [38:49] Let's call it content enrichment. That's [38:51] brilliant. And that's what we'll do. And [38:54] so the piece that we're looking at here [38:55] is Yoast the person um making the case [38:59] for if we get custom post types can we [39:04] also well he says need we also need [39:06] custom fields. It's a very well thought [39:08] through piece actually there's a lot of [39:10] it and he talks about you know why but [39:13] then he gets into the sort of weeds of [39:15] it a little bit and I've only [39:16] highlighted one little bit here. Um, a [39:19] custom post site without custom fields [39:21] is just a renamed post. [39:23] >> Mhm. [39:24] >> Uh, which is sort of sums it up [39:25] perfectly. You So, c can we make that [39:28] plea? Can the four of us together make [39:30] that plea? If we get custom post types, [39:32] can we have fields? I don't know what [39:33] fields I'm not in charge of that. [39:35] >> Can we can we can we also while we're [39:38] doing this, can we also stop calling [39:39] them custom post types and just calling [39:41] them [39:42] >> content? [39:43] >> Content. Okay. [39:44] >> What did they call it back in Drupal? It [39:46] was um content construction kit. [39:50] >> No. Well, no. Content construction kit [39:51] was the module that you had to use prior [39:54] to it going into core. [39:56] >> Oh, yes. Yes. [39:57] >> They were called content types. [40:00] >> Content types. Fine. [40:01] >> Content. [40:02] >> This was done 12 years ago in Drupal, [40:04] right? [40:04] >> Yeah. [40:06] Brilliantly obvious. And And what was [40:09] kind of interesting because it shipped [40:11] with core, you never kind of had to [40:14] learn it if you know what I mean. it [40:16] just became part of the onboarding [40:18] process, [40:19] >> you know, oh, I've done I've set up the [40:21] name of the website and now the next [40:22] screen's telling me to create some [40:25] whatever we just called them. I've [40:26] already forgotten. And so you did and [40:28] then you, you know, and then you filled [40:30] those with a bunch of uh different [40:31] fields. They they took a different [40:33] approach. Every single field was a [40:35] different plug-in. So if you wanted the [40:37] text field, you needed a plugin. If you [40:39] wanted a text area field, you needed a [40:41] plugin. If you wanted a date picker, you [40:44] needed a plugin. So they you built up [40:46] exactly what you needed. I'm not sure [40:48] about that, but I and I certainly don't [40:50] know what fields would be dur. [40:53] But yeah, I think we've all settled on [40:55] the fact that we we want these all of [40:57] these things. All of these Reese, I'm [40:59] sorry. Go on. [40:59] >> It should have been. I mean, this should [41:01] have been done when custom post types [41:04] were, you know, pushed out. I mean, I [41:07] was I was thinking about this and it [41:08] actually relates to um Yosta person. [41:11] Yoast person was like I remember being [41:16] at a conference and Yosta person talking [41:20] about custom post types and I think it [41:24] was like it was not a WordPress [41:26] conference, it was an SEO conference but [41:27] it was in like 2011 or 2010. [41:32] No, it was um it was a Saskcon. It was [41:34] one in Manchester. Um it was a very very [41:37] shortlived one. The company I worked for [41:39] at the time sponsored so I I I just [41:41] puddled along. But uh yeah, he he spoke [41:43] about it then. So and I was like, "Oh, [41:46] it's a job before the job that I had." [41:48] So this has been part of WordPress for a [41:50] very very long time now. you know, [41:54] professionally speaking is probably I'm [41:56] probably slightly grateful that it never [41:57] was part of, you know, [42:00] >> oh, [42:02] so because I a lot of my work has been [42:04] building custom post types and putting [42:06] in themes and and making it look [42:08] >> Okay, that's really interesting. So, [42:10] that little barrier made made a career [42:13] for you. the fact that [42:16] >> yeah I don't know like I I I don't know [42:18] if it actually became a career but there [42:21] is friction there and [42:23] >> yeah that's that's interesting I thought [42:25] about that [42:26] >> and what Rea says is like if you've got [42:28] something there I mean [42:30] I've logged into blogs and I've had [42:34] blogs news articles all as like three [42:37] separate post types because somebody got [42:40] a bit excited with the buttons and not [42:42] really structuring paying it [42:44] >> right right [42:45] >> but that exists so obviously like there [42:47] is like the consultancy kind of level [42:51] where I can kind of say that but there [42:53] was friction and I don't know how many [42:55] people [42:56] >> who were are clients of mine [43:01] you know um wouldn't be if this was [43:04] publicly available but [43:06] >> yeah yeah we we want to be easy but not [43:08] that easy I guess we could we could [43:11] argue you'd have more clients Well, [43:13] yeah, exactly. You you you don't you [43:15] know, you don't know like it's [43:17] >> No, but but from from my perspective, [43:19] this I mean, if we're considering this [43:22] finally and it maybe ends up in 7.1, I [43:25] think it should have been in 3.1. [43:27] >> Yeah. [43:27] >> Yeah. Well, [43:28] >> refined in 3.2. [43:29] >> Let's take that trip down memory lane [43:31] here because we have the repository [43:33] again. This article is called Gutenberg [43:35] 23.1 ships custom post types UI [43:38] prompting why now. [43:40] >> Yeah. [43:40] >> Uh from the community. So, I'll just [43:42] read this. Here's the memory lane bit. [43:44] Custom post types have been a [43:45] foundational part of WordPress since 3.0 [43:48] in 2010, allowing developers to extend [43:50] the CMS beyond standard posts and pages. [43:53] But creating them was always required [43:54] either a plug-in or code that got that [43:57] gap spawned two well-known products. [43:59] Webdev studios custom post types UI, [44:01] that's the one I just mentioned, which [44:03] has got currently over a million active [44:04] installations. I bet that plugin is like [44:08] much closer to two million. uh and WP [44:11] engines advanced custom fields which of [44:13] course back in the day was when this was [44:15] all happening was Elliot Elliot Condan [44:17] was the sole proprietor of that um [44:20] adding added custom post type and [44:22] taxonomy registrations um tools to ACF [44:25] 6.1 building on an already massive user [44:27] base of more than two million sites. So [44:29] yeah, let's do it. Let's get it into 7.1 [44:32] and um [44:34] >> all working with real time [44:35] collaboration. [44:36] >> Yeah. Yeah. And then we'll just argue [44:38] about which custom fields we want. We [44:40] need which are essential like the slide, [44:42] you know, the the date picker and the [44:44] slider and the price thing that you'll [44:46] be able to slide. And what else do we [44:48] need? We need an image uploader and off [44:50] we go. It'll be never it'll be never [44:53] ending. [44:54] >> Um, but okay, go and check that out. So, [44:56] there was a few more pieces bound to [44:57] that. And again, I'll put these in the [44:59] show notes. Here's the GitHub issue. You [45:00] can see that on the screen. And here is [45:02] the actual Gutenberg 23.1.0. [45:07] um [45:09] change log which you can find on um the [45:12] show notes which I'll put into yeah I'll [45:16] make sure that that's all linked and [45:17] there's Yos piece the Yos piece was [45:19] called if WordPress gets custom post [45:22] CPTs in core we also need custom fields [45:26] I like his new site I've got to say I [45:28] like his typography very very much and [45:31] the colors I'm drawn to these autuminal [45:34] colors right moving on. Is this the same [45:37] thing? Uh, Steve, I'm looking at 77600. [45:41] This content types tracking issue. [45:44] >> Yeah, that's the that's the key [45:46] organizing issue for [45:48] post types. Uh, taxonomy creation, [45:51] fields. I think if you scroll down, they [45:53] mentioned that fields is absolutely on [45:55] the road map. [45:56] >> Yeah. Um, there's a few not dissenting [46:00] voices, but there's, you know, it's a [46:02] big change, I guess. And we've got um [46:04] Jonathan D. Rozi is here who asks as I [46:08] said well it was sort of implied from [46:10] something that we read earlier. Why is [46:12] this being tackled? To quote him, why is [46:14] this being tackled? I don't see any [46:15] compelling discussions or reasoning as [46:17] to why this is a problem that WordPress [46:20] should tackle how does this fit into the [46:22] road map and the four phases. I think [46:24] he's actually done some work since then [46:26] to actually make this more more probable [46:28] than possible. So yeah, anyway, there's [46:32] a descending put it that way. [46:35] >> Okay. Do you think we've touched on that [46:36] one long enough? Probably we have. Let's [46:38] move on to this one. So this is WP [46:41] Beacon. I mispronounced [46:44] Austin's name uh last week to humorous [46:48] effect. I was actually almost in tears [46:52] with how funny I thought it was. Turns [46:54] out it wasn't very funny at all, but I [46:55] thought it was hysterically funny. Um [46:57] anyway, Austin, I'm going to get it [46:59] right. Ginder, there we go. Did it um [47:02] has got this amazing new thing, WP [47:05] Beacon. I've got a podcast episode of [47:07] The Tavern coming out with him pretty [47:09] soon, but um this is to to try and stop [47:14] supply chain attacks. So, I I guess the [47:16] easiest way to describe it is let's say [47:18] you've had a plug-in on your website for [47:19] ages. Unbeknownst to you, in the [47:22] background, that plug-in gets bought by [47:24] some other entity. they turn out to be [47:27] um horrible people who have only bought [47:29] the plugins so that they can do horrible [47:31] things like deface your website or any [47:34] other thing you can imagine. There [47:36] really isn't a system at the moment to [47:38] notify you that any of that's happened. [47:40] And so that's what Austin's doing here. [47:43] WP Beacon watching the WordPress plug-in [47:45] supply chain. 113,06 [47:49] plugins are currently being watched. [47:52] 79,000 or just short of authors being [47:55] tracked. It's covering 30 337.2 [47:59] million [48:01] uh installs of WordPress and he's got 23 [48:05] forensic audits. They're not small [48:07] numbers considering this project started [48:08] a couple of couple of weeks ago, but um [48:11] yeah. Anybody want to comment on this [48:13] Steve by the looks of it? [48:15] >> Yeah, he is he's doing wonderful work. [48:19] Um, I I'm a little [48:23] skeptical sometimes about AI. Um, we're [48:26] using AI in our our processes at Publish [48:30] Press, absolutely not in creating [48:32] content at the moment. Um, [48:35] but the work that Austin is doing is [48:39] absolutely in the sweet spot of where AI [48:42] can really help WordPress. Um, but he's [48:47] also [48:48] >> just lean into that a little bit, Steve. [48:49] Why do you say that? I I think I know [48:51] why, but is it Well, just tell me why [48:53] you say that. [48:54] >> He's basically downloading and scanning [48:56] the entire WordPress plug-in repo, [48:59] >> like 60,000 plugins. [49:01] >> Um, and he's solving some interesting [49:05] mysteries as well. Some of these are not [49:07] just the case of some bad JavaScript [49:11] inside the code. Some of these are some [49:13] really like malicious [49:17] tricky hacks um through like the update [49:21] mechanism that he's he's using AI I [49:25] think to to route out only obvious cases [49:28] and then using it to help him track down [49:32] some really [49:34] uh some really hard to solve hijacks [49:38] that Austin is I I take my hat off to [49:41] him. I don't have a I don't have a [49:43] Nathan, [49:43] >> you know. Actually, I'll take my hat [49:44] slightly off, but I've got headphones on [49:46] top. [49:47] >> Yeah. one of the ones that was so at the [49:49] time of recording uh I think he found [49:52] like four different or six or something [49:54] like that different plugins and they got [49:56] a whole variety of different things [49:58] going on but one of them was a plugin [49:59] that had been bought and nothing had [50:02] changed I think for eight months except [50:05] this back door had been put in such that [50:09] instead of updating from WordPress [50:11] excuse me instead of updating from [50:12] WordPress.org or the plug-in would now [50:16] start updating from this different [50:18] location which meant that WordPress.org [50:21] had no insight into what was happening [50:22] from that moment on. And I can't [50:24] actually remember I think it was a [50:26] defacing thing. I think they were sort [50:27] of trying to you know maybe they had [50:29] some sort of website that they wanted to [50:31] promote or whatever. But the point is it [50:33] sat there for eight months. Nobody knew [50:35] because the nobody needed to know about [50:37] the change of plug-in hands. I think it [50:39] was 23,000 installs or something like [50:42] that. It's such a curious, strange [50:45] little loophole. Um, it wouldn't [50:48] surprise me if this topic, this this [50:50] thing that he's built gets taken up by [50:52] or maybe, you know, a replica of it gets [50:54] built in uh, I don't know, inside of [50:57] automatic or WordPress.org or something [50:58] like that. Certainly, [51:00] >> you you could really argue that this [51:01] needs to be part of the infrastructure [51:03] of.org, [51:04] >> right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Um, presumably [51:09] um, you automatic or WordPress.org or [51:12] could roll their own. But as this is [51:14] already up and running, it would [51:16] certainly be worth getting in touch with [51:18] Austin. I think he's in touch with uh a [51:21] variety of different people already. I [51:23] think he's managed to prick people's [51:24] ears up. So, um yeah. Anybody else want [51:28] to touch on that? [51:30] >> I I'd like to uh what what's what Steve [51:33] said. I I think this is [51:36] on what AI allows us to do. There's so [51:40] much [51:42] uh crap coming out. Sorry, I need to [51:44] look for a a decent word there. [51:47] >> There's so much crap coming out of [51:49] people just slapping AI onto anything [51:51] and everything and just not really [51:54] thinking it through. Uh because they [51:56] just want to have AI in there. I think [51:59] this is what Steve said is I 100% agree [52:01] with this is a wonderful wonderful usage [52:05] of what AI can do. It's bulk. [52:08] >> It's undoable. [52:10] >> Yeah. for a person to do this as a [52:12] reviewer, [52:13] >> right? [52:14] >> However, it is perfectly scriptable and [52:17] detectable and AIable for whatever [52:21] uh purpose that you may think of because [52:23] this is just the base, right? From here, [52:25] you start thinking on more scenarios of [52:28] what you actually want to know about. Um [52:30] I I I love this project. [52:32] >> Yeah. [52:32] >> Um you've just coined a phrase. I think [52:35] people should use that more often. [52:36] AIable. I like that. That's um but this [52:39] sort of sums it up perfectly, doesn't [52:40] it? Like a giant corpus of information. [52:44] Yeah. [52:44] >> That no human can make any sense of like [52:47] atomize it. The humans can make sense of [52:49] all the little component bits one at a [52:52] time. But at scale, what have we got? 33 [52:56] 337 [52:58] million installations have been covered. [53:00] And this project is barely a few weeks [53:02] old. [53:02] >> Yeah. [53:03] >> Um it's perfect for that kind of stuff, [53:05] isn't it? Just just to think like as [53:07] well as like the plugins like so like [53:10] one of the things it does is like [53:11] ownership transfer it's looking probably [53:15] >> right [53:15] >> that who is committing you know because [53:19] it's done by a line within the [53:20] readme.txt txt file who he which which [53:23] accounts have access to a WordPress [53:25] repository by and large. So he's [53:27] probably looking like as well as as well [53:30] as the plug is watched the entire [53:34] commit history of all the plug all those [53:37] plugins [53:38] >> because that's when you can kind of see. [53:40] So it yeah it's it's [53:43] impossible for a human to do like [53:47] >> well and I suppose the problem that we [53:49] may face is that the the landscape might [53:52] well become um one in which AI [53:56] um the malicious use of AI let's go with [53:59] that the malicious use of AI will make [54:02] it so that humans really haven't got a [54:04] chance you know not just for sort of [54:06] retroactively coming up with interesting [54:08] projects like this but the landscape, [54:10] all possible futures in the f in the [54:12] future. There's just going to be so many [54:15] attacks. AI really is the only thing [54:18] that we'll be able to uh to keep a track [54:21] at pace. What a what an interesting [54:24] world we live in where that's a reality. [54:26] Anyway, Austin, um I appreciate the work [54:30] that you've done. Steve obviously does [54:31] and it sounds like Reese and Rimus [54:33] appreciate this as well. So, thank you [54:35] for building it. wpbeeon.io [54:39] and uh keep your ears peeled for the [54:41] Tavern podcast in a few weeks time and [54:43] Austin will be on trying to explain it [54:46] uh to me right now. This is very much [54:49] related to it. Um not quite the same [54:51] thing, but obviously the folk over at [54:54] Gravity Kit have um spied this as a [54:58] potential problem. I don't know if it [54:59] was prompted by the work that Austin's [55:01] been doing, but they have taken the [55:04] responsibility for making sure that you [55:06] know that their plug-in is legit by [55:09] themselves. So, this is a piece called [55:11] by Vlad, who is their head of [55:13] development, and it's called Gravity Kit [55:15] products now give you a stronger reason [55:17] to trust what you install. Every gravity [55:20] kit plug-in update is now [55:22] cryptographically verified before [55:24] installation. Tampered packages are [55:26] blocked before unpacking, protecting [55:29] your site from supply chain attacks [55:31] automatically. Steve, I'll give this one [55:33] to you as you dropped it in. Is was [55:34] there anything specific you wanted to [55:36] mention? [55:38] >> Well, this is related to Austin's work [55:41] that there have been some um some [55:45] hijacks of plugins on WordPress.org, [55:48] But there's also been a separate series [55:50] of attacks on uh premium plug-in [55:54] developers where people have got inside [55:57] the developers sites and [56:00] uh infested the actual code that people [56:03] are downloading from their sites. Um I [56:07] think Gravity Forms was the first one [56:10] and they caught it [56:13] >> before more than one or two people had [56:15] downloaded it. But there were some other [56:17] ones that were worse since um where I [56:22] think one or two of them had been [56:24] undetected for quite some time where you [56:27] you own the premium version of a [56:29] plug-in. Whenever you downloaded it [56:32] directly from their website, you were [56:34] taking a Trojan with the download, [56:37] >> right? Um, and so, um, Zach and his team [56:41] who have done some really creative work [56:43] like they they put out a a translation [56:46] plug-in recently to help you translate [56:49] your plugins automatically with AI. I'm [56:52] think Remus has some opinions on that [56:54] maybe um um about the quality of it. Um, [56:59] Zach and his team do creative stuff and [57:02] they're talking here about making 100% [57:06] sure that what you download from Gravity [57:09] Kit is verified. [57:12] Um, even if you're downloading [57:14] downloading automatically from your [57:16] WordPress website. Um, we've done [57:18] something similar at Publish Press. All [57:20] of our downloads now are done directly [57:23] from GitHub. They never actually touch [57:25] our website. Um, but we haven't written [57:28] out that process in quite as detail and [57:30] quite as helpfully as Zach has here. [57:33] >> Are you cryptographically [57:35] uh verifying your commits to GitHub? [57:39] >> That's um one reason that we haven't [57:42] written it up is we've still got some [57:44] things to do and that's on the on the [57:46] to-do list store. Yeah, because that's [57:48] the thing that I when I read this went [57:49] like it's great that you're doing it at [57:51] the delivery end, but if the code itself [57:53] still is in transit can be [57:58] >> I don't know played around with um you [58:01] you you still need to solve the [58:04] from the code lives on my machine and [58:06] then goes to the repo. You still need to [58:08] take care of that. Uh [58:11] uh it's it's essentially a vector that [58:14] you need to mitigate. Can I just ask a [58:16] question and it may I suspect it's me [58:18] not really understanding the process but [58:21] if let's say for example the gravity kit [58:26] let's just use them as an example. Let's [58:28] say that there was some mismatch between [58:31] the download that you got and what [58:33] you're anticipating. So somewhere [58:35] something's gone wrong. [58:37] Doesn't the fact that they are serving [58:40] it up aren't kind of all bets off if [58:44] they're serving up um something which is [58:47] not cryptographically signed? Wouldn't [58:50] the signing of it be tamperable with [58:52] presumably if somebody can get in to put [58:54] a payload on their website, wouldn't [58:57] they equally be able to incorrectly sign [59:00] it, if you know what I mean? Or do the [59:02] two things not follow? Have I [59:03] misunderstood? theoretically [59:06] uh but you'd need to be deep on in on [59:08] the system like [59:09] >> deep in the OS deep in the right [59:12] >> because you you generate essentially the [59:14] the cryptographic uh verification you [59:17] generate that based on what's on your [59:19] machine [59:20] >> right [59:20] >> uh which then get verifi then gets [59:23] verified [59:24] >> okay [59:25] >> the there what you're referring to there [59:27] there's there's always a chance of the [59:29] man in the middle attack so whatever the [59:31] middle is if there is a middle somebody [59:33] can get in Right. If you're doing this, [59:36] this is great, but you still need to [59:37] make sure your machine is safe and [59:39] secure and and audited and all that sort [59:41] of stuff. If you take this to the max, [59:43] there's a whole bunch of steps that you [59:45] need to make sure that is are not [59:47] tampered with. So essentially, you would [59:49] have every single step [59:51] >> of whatever the code goes through to the [59:55] end client, every single build step in [59:57] between needs to have these [59:58] verifications in there as well. [60:00] >> Yeah. I mean, we just simply don't want [60:02] to get to the point where we have to go [60:03] and meet Vlad in a cafe and he hands us [60:06] a pen drive because uh you know, there's [60:08] no other way. It's like if you want and [60:11] even then Vlad could be an imposter. You [60:14] you never know. [60:15] >> It is it is literally that. [60:18] >> Yeah. So I I've worked for I've worked [60:20] for a large insurance company uh which [60:22] is part of a bank [60:24] >> uh for many many years and you learn [60:26] about all the things that can happen and [60:28] and this is 20 more than 25 years ago [60:31] >> but the the problems of then are only [60:35] bigger now the principle is the same [60:37] there's so many layers where you need to [60:39] cover your ass [60:41] >> I I had a friend who was very senior in [60:44] BT and he worked with security and he he [60:47] he tells this story. He witnessed it. He [60:49] wasn't part of the unfolding drama, but [60:52] they they brought this security [60:53] researcher in who made the bold claim [60:55] that he would be able to get access to [60:57] any part of their system instantly. [61:01] And the guy who's the head of security [61:03] was there and was sort of like, you [61:04] know, no, no, no, that's not possible. [61:06] And he said, no, no, no, I'll do it. And [61:07] he said, okay, just pick some terminal. [61:10] We'll go over there and I'll get in [61:11] immediately. H. And he said, but you've [61:13] got to be quiet. You're not allowed to [61:15] interrupt me or anything like that. And [61:16] so they wandered over to this terminal [61:18] and the guy said to the guy at the [61:20] terminal uh I'd like you to give me [61:21] access to your terminal. You can see I'm [61:23] here with the head of security. So if [61:24] you just move over all and uh it's like [61:27] yep right I'm in [61:30] root access and all I had to do is show [61:32] a picture of you basically. [61:34] >> Yeah. And it's it's it's exactly that. [61:37] It's it's from the the the person to the [61:39] code and everything in between. [61:42] So maybe uh maybe four years ago, we got [61:46] caught in like a mild version of this um [61:49] that Zach and Vlad are talking about [61:50] here that um this was right around when [61:53] the uh Ukraine war started and we had [61:57] this kind of um kind of pop-up modal [61:59] library inside one of our plugins that [62:02] helped do the introductory tour. And [62:05] this plugin was in or this JavaScript [62:07] library sorry was in dozens of WordPress [62:10] plugins including ours and there was an [62:13] update that came out and which ran all [62:16] our security checks and it passed and we [62:19] released the plug-in and suddenly people [62:21] in Russia started complaining [62:24] what's going on. It it turns out that [62:26] the JavaScript um pop-up developer had [62:30] made it so that whenever anyone from [62:33] Russia visited a website with this on, [62:36] it would start playing the Ukrainian [62:37] national anthem really loudly. [62:41] >> That's genius. I think what the the [62:44] bottom line with security is it's a [62:46] never- ending challenge, right? And um [62:48] and as we discover some lowhanging well [62:50] not a low hanging fruit but it would [62:52] appear that the WP Beacon man in the um [62:56] um supply chain attack problem was kind [62:58] of always sitting there but nobody [63:00] really took any notice of it. This idea [63:02] of plug-in vendors taking things on. Now [63:04] that it's been highlighted maybe more [63:05] things like this gravity kit solution [63:07] will come along. Is it bulletproof? No. [63:10] Is it better? Yeah. Um and maybe that's [63:13] the calculus that we've got to go with. [63:15] So yeah. I don't know I don't know if [63:16] you saw um uh Matt Mullenweg retweeted [63:20] something this morning or this night [63:22] whatever I saw it this morning [63:23] >> where essentially [63:25] in terms of security they have a [63:28] particular type of server which has [63:30] space and everything built so that no [63:33] data can leave their server and they [63:35] found uh a low frequency magnetic pulse [63:40] that does something to the CPU and [63:44] and then data comes back It's just [63:46] >> it's a never- ending story this. [63:48] >> Oh, I mean it's literally never ending. [63:50] Have you heard of things like, you know, [63:52] when you hammer the uh you hammer the [63:54] hard you you kind of write and onight [63:56] and write and onright sectors of the [63:58] hard disk and the idea is you do it so [64:00] fast and so often you hit a sector near [64:03] where the password for the operating [64:05] system is stored and eventually it just [64:07] flips the bit because the electron has a [64:10] magnetic field. It flips the bit in the [64:12] adjacent sector of the hard disk. If you [64:15] do it like 10 billion times, you've got [64:17] a one in 10. All of a sudden, you can't [64:20] get access to the machine because your [64:21] password won't go. [64:23] >> It's just nuts. Yeah. Oh, works. Works. [64:29] >> Yeah. I'll meet you on a bridge [64:30] somewhere and you can you can give me [64:32] you can give me your plugin in [64:34] paperbased text. [64:36] >> I'll come back home and type it in. [64:38] >> Yeah. You'll go back to like old [64:41] >> punch cards. punch cards or or or [64:44] magazines where you have to type them [64:46] in. But no, it's scary. There's um [64:49] >> is scary. [64:50] >> During lockdown when we had like um you [64:53] know, we have like Zoom meetup. A friend [64:54] of mine was telling me about like the [64:56] Defcon conferences I think they're [64:58] called in in America where they they [65:00] they they just get given it's just a [65:02] security conference and it's [65:07] it's terrifying cuz [65:09] >> at the time they were like okay we just [65:12] got a bunch of like voting machines [65:15] >> um like the the election [65:17] >> go ahead and hack them see what you can [65:19] do with them kind of thing. And it's [65:21] like, yeah, it's quite terrible. [65:23] >> Every year they do the the sort of the [65:26] black hat. I forget. It may be the one [65:28] that you're talking about, but it's [65:29] really interesting if you read the [65:31] summation of it. And very often it's [65:32] about, I don't know, escaping the [65:34] sandbox of a thing like the Chrome [65:36] browser or the OS or Android or iOS. And [65:40] there's a lot of money attached to it, [65:41] you know, because Google and whoever [65:43] else is involved in these, you know, [65:45] these bug bounties will happily stomp up [65:47] a lot of cash. Well, for an individual [65:50] at least anyway. And some of the people [65:52] who are very successful, you know, in [65:53] two or three days they're millionaires [65:55] and then they come back next year, they [65:56] do it all again. Um, and they come in [65:59] teams typically, I think, and then they [66:01] leverage like one thing [66:03] >> which gives them a beach head to do [66:05] another thing and then another little [66:06] beach head and like 15 beach heads in, [66:09] they've got control of iOS. And [66:11] apparently that's the gold. If you if [66:13] you get full root access to iOS, that's [66:16] where the money is. you get tons of cash [66:17] for that. So, because that's apparently [66:19] really, really, really difficult, [66:21] whereas the Chrome browser is just a [66:23] piece of cake if you're very good [66:25] apparently. Um, anyway, there it's not a [66:27] piece of cake. It's, you know, just for [66:29] these people, right, let's move on. Um, [66:32] let me find the thing. Okay. Um, just a [66:36] quick one. I know REMUS was here a [66:38] couple of weeks ago. I just thought we'd [66:39] mention this. Steve brought it to our [66:41] attention again. Business Bloomer, an [66:44] open letter to the Woo Commerce uh and [66:46] the Woo Commerce community. Basically, [66:49] Ralpho, who set up the event, is um is I [66:52] I think just trying to figure out what [66:54] the heck WordPress and Woo Commerce look [66:57] like in the future. He's obviously run [66:59] this event. I think Remush, you'd regard [67:01] it as a success. You enjoyed it [67:02] >> brilliantly. I would say he's run this [67:04] event brilliantly. [67:05] >> Okay. As good as anything, you know, [67:07] like really top-notch. Yeah, [67:09] >> top notch. Top top notch. [67:10] >> Oh, great. Okay. Well, th this is like a [67:13] summation of him and all the thoughts [67:15] that have occurred to him in the week or [67:16] so or two weeks since then. Um, and he's [67:19] trying to just figure out what's going [67:21] on in the ecosystem and what are we [67:24] doing. I I'm not going to summarize it [67:25] much more than that. Steve, I don't know [67:26] if you've got some in insight that you [67:29] wanted to uh give. If not, I'll just [67:31] move on and let people read it on their [67:33] end. It's quite an [67:34] >> It struck me as basically like five [67:37] words. Uh, it's like I I love you, do [67:41] better. [67:42] >> Okay. [67:43] >> Yeah. Nice. [67:44] >> It seemed like um a friendly kick up the [67:49] butt that we had all these people in [67:52] Palmo, I think. Remus in Italy. [67:54] >> Yep. [67:55] >> In Palmo in Italy. And great conference. [67:58] But what um uh what Rulo heard was that [68:03] people are a little anxious. They want [68:07] WooCommerce to do better. They love the [68:09] platform. They want to keep developing [68:11] for it. But [68:13] people are nervous. They want I think he [68:16] was asking for WooCom to come back. He [68:18] was asking for perhaps a clearer road [68:19] map. Um [68:22] it was an open letter in that sense that [68:24] um here are here are our concerns. We're [68:26] putting them out in the open. Um let's [68:29] see if we can do better. [68:30] uh is it sort of shaped by just sort of [68:33] fear of I don't know AI taking over or a [68:35] dwindling in the community? [68:36] >> No, no, no, no, no. The the the [68:38] sentiment at the event was essentially [68:41] uh finally we were together in a room [68:44] talking about the tool we love working [68:46] with. Uh and [68:50] what what what this post is is [68:52] essentially uh [68:55] in some ways kind of a summary of [68:58] sentiments expressed by various members [69:00] of the audience as well as people from [69:02] Woo Commerce themselves. So they were [69:04] very clear in stating uh we hear you, we [69:08] see you uh on the woo side of things. [69:11] And I think to to me uh Rodalfo's post [69:14] reads like just a transcript almost a [69:17] confirmation of things and and emotions [69:19] expressed in terms of [69:22] just general [69:25] um [69:27] more visibility more action into more [69:30] listening more helping along. uh that [69:36] sort of approach. I don't think we've [69:37] heard many uh ooh now we're worried [69:40] about what AI was going to [69:42] >> okay [69:43] >> that that wasn't the sentiment. The [69:44] sentiment was it's a great tool. We love [69:47] working with it. We love the community [69:48] behind it. We love the systems and the [69:50] and the tools connected to it. However, [69:53] and then there's stuff that needs to [69:55] >> Yeah. Okay. Um I I don't know if you've [69:59] got a sense that like I do, but I think [70:01] events are becoming a much more [70:03] difficult proposition. I know that um [70:06] Ree in Manchester there organizing the [70:08] bits that you organize my participation [70:11] in the London um WLDDN down in London. [70:14] I've got some news to share with you [70:16] about that in a moment. But also this [70:18] piece and Steve, I know you had [70:20] something to say and we'll come back to [70:21] it in just a second, but I'll I'll just [70:23] sort of segue it to this quickly. Um, [70:27] I've just sort of Yeah. Okay, that's [70:29] going to work. I thought I'd popped the [70:31] wrong browser tab open. This one here. [70:34] Um, word camp US, which is due to take [70:37] place in mid August 2016. What are we [70:41] May, June, July, August? Three three [70:44] months more or less to the day. Um, [70:46] until this event is happening. And uh [70:49] this I I I could be wrong about this, [70:51] but I think this is the first time that [70:53] we're now on a call for sponsors, [70:56] speakers, volunteers, and obviously [70:59] attendees to come to this event. I don't [71:02] know particularly if this is normal. [71:04] Remus being one of the founders of Word [71:07] Camp Europe, I'm sure you've got [71:08] thoughts on this, but seems like it's [71:11] difficult to find people to do these [71:12] things, to get excited about these [71:14] things, to make these things happen. And [71:18] um yeah, Rulo pulling that off in Palmo [71:20] is pretty cool. [71:22] >> So Rulo did that in nine months. [71:24] >> Yeah. [71:25] >> Uh I've organized work camps in uh work [71:29] camp Netherlands specifically in the [71:30] span of three months, but that was when [71:33] the momentum was high when it was [71:36] relatively easy just to say, "Hey, we're [71:38] doing this. Uh get on board." [71:41] >> Finding a favorable date. [71:44] So, not in the middle of a vacation [71:46] period. [71:47] >> Yeah. [71:47] >> Um, [71:49] I think for a flagship event, three [71:52] months is super short, [71:56] >> if not if not too short to do it all the [71:59] way should be done, [72:01] >> right? [72:01] >> If they're still calling for organizers, [72:05] getting them on board, getting them up [72:07] to work, to speed, and all that sort of [72:09] stuff, we're a month in. So that [72:12] >> and then we organize the thing. [72:14] >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So are you kind of [72:18] does then that give you a sense that [72:20] this event [72:21] >> Yes. [72:21] >> is on the precipice of being [72:24] unorganizable? [72:26] >> I mean no it's organizable but [72:30] >> tough to do. Part of this is also the [72:33] amount of noise you're making and the [72:35] amount of visibility and the people [72:37] planning their lives ahead more than [72:40] three months in a vacation period. So [72:43] there's a very high chance the [72:45] attendance is not going to be where you [72:48] would like it to be [72:49] >> right [72:49] >> just for the simple reason again in the [72:51] vacation period [72:53] >> in a very very hot part of the United [72:56] States. Uh, [72:58] and you know, it's 3 months and you have [73:02] two and a half, two months of making [73:04] noise and getting good speakers and it's [73:08] just really short. [73:09] >> Yeah. [73:09] >> Yeah. Okay, I get the point. So, [73:11] basically, it's a confection of like [73:14] thousands, well, in theory, thousands of [73:16] people trying to organize their [73:17] calendars when it's the the event [73:20] location is tricky because of the heat [73:22] and and that's just not words, is it? [73:24] that it is really considerably hotter [73:26] than oh yeah like anywhere you can find [73:28] in Europe basically [73:30] >> this is this is this is in the [73:33] >> uh the Fahrenheit is it's well above 100 [73:35] and for those uh who who who understand [73:37] proper u u [73:41] it's uh it's 40 plus Celsius [73:44] >> okay all right it's brutal yeah but then [73:47] the point that you made the wider point [73:48] though about organizing your calendars [73:50] if it's in the holiday [73:51] >> or maybe you could have done that but [73:53] you need to have planned that probably [73:54] quite a lot. [73:55] >> The date has been known. So if if if uh [73:58] if if the organizing uh organizing team [74:01] is lucky then people have sort of [74:02] reserved that. [74:04] >> Right. Yeah. That's what I've done. I I [74:07] kind of put a you know a mark in the [74:09] calendar to [74:10] >> and so have I. But it's it's just the [74:12] combination of things makes me go like [74:15] >> Yeah. Okay. [74:17] >> The last edition I think barely got more [74:19] than uh than a thousand. [74:22] >> Yeah. It was along those lines. [74:25] The prior year the venue felt busy. The [74:29] second year the venue felt [74:31] >> not so busy and it was a big venue. I [74:34] reckon you could happily have got five [74:36] six thousand in there. [74:37] >> So I'd be surprised if we hit that uh or [74:40] come even close to it. I'm not trying to [74:41] be a negative Nelly here. Uh that's not [74:44] that's not my mo, but I I do see just a [74:47] whole bunch of constraints in making [74:48] this happen the way it should happen. [74:50] >> Okay. So maybe some of the bits that um [74:53] Rulo was leaning into a little bit [74:55] there, you know, is his thoughts about [74:57] how these things need to be scoped out [74:59] and thought about and planned in advance [75:01] and how they're going to work. Uh Steve [75:04] Ree, anything on that one before we move [75:06] on? [75:08] >> No. [75:09] >> No. Okay. In which case, we'll just put [75:12] that one to bed and we will move on to I [75:15] I have no idea why I like this as much [75:17] as I do. It makes no sense to me. I [75:19] don't think anybody else has got any of [75:21] the same vibes as I do. So, this is uh I [75:24] I kind of caught sight of this last [75:25] week, but Steve's brought it up again. [75:27] And there's a video this time, which [75:29] sadly I can't really get to play. It's [75:31] incredibly jittery, so I'm not even [75:32] going to try. But it's um it's um [75:35] WordPress desktop mode. And essentially, [75:39] it mimics in your browser the experience [75:42] of a desktop in that well, let me put [75:44] the video the bit that I can sort of try [75:46] to manage. It gives you the impression. [75:49] So you can see we're in a browser. Looks [75:51] like it's Chrome or something like that. [75:52] And you can see this tab is open. And [75:55] but what we've got here is something [75:56] akin to a desktop. So WordPress is ah [76:01] look I pressed play and it just totally [76:03] BS. Um let me see if I can find a little [76:06] bit which is of use. There there you go. [76:08] There was a just a brief moment there [76:10] where it looked like you had sort of two [76:12] overlapping windows. You could slide the [76:14] windows around. You could make the two [76:16] things kind of do things in tandem. So, [76:19] you could drag images from one side to [76:20] the other. We discussed all this last [76:22] week, but now there's a video. I think [76:24] it's great. I don't know why I really [76:27] like this, but there are a few locations [76:30] that I always want to have open and so [76:33] they're basically open and they're open [76:35] in different tabs. And usually I arrange [76:37] those tabs in different places on my [76:39] desktop. And I kind of like that like [76:41] like the idea of going full screen in [76:43] the browser, having all those things [76:45] lined up, and then when I close it, I've [76:47] got everything shot, and then when I [76:49] reopen it, maybe there's going to be a [76:51] way to reopen all those um tabs, for one [76:54] of a better word, at the same time. [76:56] Anyway, I think it's great. It's worth [76:58] checking out. There is a demo video. [76:59] >> I think it's the bees knees. [77:01] >> You like it. So, it wasn't just me. Oh, [77:04] >> no. No. So you're looking at this from a [77:06] website perspective, but turn this into [77:08] uh WordPress being the data house. This [77:10] is where your data lives for whatever [77:11] that your data is [77:13] >> and you have custom dashboards and all [77:14] that sort of stuff. [77:16] >> Oh yeah. [77:17] >> If if you turn this into um more of an [77:20] application approach [77:22] and then you have it installed as an [77:24] application, it looks like an [77:25] application. It behaves like an [77:26] application, you are going to make a lot [77:29] of people happy. [77:31] >> Okay. So that's interesting. So, I use I [77:33] use quite a lot of things. I don't know, [77:34] to-do lists and those kind of things and [77:36] calendar apps and things and and I often [77:39] want the two things side by side and [77:41] very often that means opening up two [77:43] tabs, splitting them out, locking them [77:45] somewhere in the browser, but like you [77:47] say, oh, okay. Yeah, I hadn't really [77:48] thought about it like that, but [77:49] displaying data. Yeah, for me it's more [77:52] utility like I want I want the because [77:54] I'm doing podcasting, I want the media [77:56] library open over there. I want the [77:57] current post. I want some like some sort [78:00] of documentation that I'm cribbing from [78:02] about that open in open there as well. [78:05] Yeah, I think this has got a lot of [78:06] legs. Um Oh, I'm glad you thought that. [78:09] >> I I genuinely see this if you if if you [78:11] don't get what this allows you to do, [78:13] you haven't looked at it long enough. [78:15] >> Yeah. Okay. Okay. [78:16] >> This should make you very excited. This [78:18] is part of the future of WordPress. [78:20] >> Nicely said. Uh Reys Steve, are you as [78:23] you [78:25] >> No, no, I No, I I I I did discover it. I [78:28] discovered it this morning. Um it was [78:30] it's one of the When were we talking [78:32] about a few weeks ago? There was like [78:34] the curated featured plugins. [78:37] >> Yes. List. This is one of them. [78:39] >> Yes. [78:40] >> That is on there. Um so I was like, "Oo, [78:42] that looks fun." And installed it [78:44] locally. Immediately stuck the Windows [78:47] XP Bliss. Oh, background in the [78:51] background just just to kind of like [78:53] make it a happy place. But no, it's it's [78:57] it's [78:58] >> it's fun. [78:59] >> It's just neat. Let me just see if I can [79:02] find a bit where it kind of emphas [79:05] Oh, and so what you can see here, dear [79:07] listener, apologies for this, but what [79:09] we're showing on the screen, I'm not [79:11] going to try and enlarge it or anything [79:12] because it'll bulk everything. This is [79:14] like the OS. Uh this is like the [79:16] settings panel [79:18] >> for the for the desktop environment. So [79:20] you can do things like set your you know [79:22] your background color and you know all [79:24] of that kind of stuff. Um and yeah I [79:27] think this has got a lot of legs really [79:31] >> going on from the app thing where I can [79:33] see this being useful and I know that [79:34] they they they've got like this timing [79:36] widget is on mobile. [79:39] >> I think mobile as well and and and iPads [79:42] and and tablets it could be really Cool. [79:47] >> One thing, one thing I would just say is [79:49] if you think that you're kind of getting [79:50] yourself into something that you might [79:52] regret, I haven't played with it, but [79:55] the the about uh section in the GitHub [79:57] repo is pretty clear. It says it's optin [80:00] per user, doesn't change core, and fully [80:03] reverts on deactivation. So, I don't [80:06] think it's messing with an awful lot. I [80:08] I I say that advisedly. I don't know [80:11] what's going on, but um we'll see. So it [80:14] says desktop mode is a WordPress plug-in [80:16] that turns WP admin into a desktop style [80:18] interface with movable windows and a [80:20] dock menu. What I want to happen here in [80:23] the same way that playground got picked [80:25] up by automatic and they put who was it [80:29] who was doing Playground at the [80:31] beginning? Can anybody remember that [80:33] guy's name? Oh, he's such a nice guy. I [80:36] think he's from [80:37] >> Polish. [80:38] >> Yeah, he's Polish. Adam Zalinski. There [80:40] we go. Adam Zalinski. He he was [80:43] immediately secounded to just right [80:45] crack on that's what you're doing from [80:47] now on and here's some other people to [80:49] help you. I want that to happen with [80:51] this I want this desktop mode to be [80:53] picked off in that way. [80:54] >> Is this part of automatic already like [80:56] they're doing like a radical speed month [80:58] or something like that? [80:59] >> I don't know if it's that. Um but it [81:02] feels like I mean if it's not it's with [81:05] exquisite timing. [81:07] >> Uh you think it is Ramus? Okay. I I [81:09] believe it is, but I'm not I'm not 100% [81:11] sure, but I think I saw it. [81:12] >> Yeah. Well, I hope that this is one of [81:14] those ones that rises to the surface and [81:16] gets funded and all of the people [81:17] involved get like full time to just mess [81:20] around with this. This seems like such a [81:21] credible thing to do. Uh I'm going to [81:24] quickly move on. Uh I'll just go to this [81:27] one quickly. Repository Matt Mulleng [81:30] assembles trusted group to overhaul [81:33] WordPress.org and five for the future. I [81:36] think it's fair to say that Matt is um [81:38] is a bit like in in a space where he [81:41] wants rapid change and he wants rapid [81:44] change by pulling the rug out from [81:47] processes and systems that have hitherto [81:49] been as I guess he would see it an [81:52] impediment to things happening quickly. [81:55] Um Steve, did you want to say something? [81:57] You look like you were [81:58] >> Yeah, I [82:01] I'm I'm quite often AI skeptical. [82:06] But it seems like AI [82:09] has been the best thing that's happened [82:11] to WordPress in a long time in the sense [82:14] that it's really given the whole [82:17] community a kick up the backside that we [82:19] had that kind of that massive stagnation [82:23] after the first word camp Portland and [82:25] all the things that um that happened [82:29] around that like no releases for a year [82:32] and then suddenly AI explodes on the [82:34] scene And we kind of as a community have [82:36] remembered that like we can get things [82:38] done, right? Like [82:40] >> oh okay the the taxonomies I think in [82:43] Ray's post about I mean um we this whole [82:48] thing has basically been like a kind of [82:49] a love letter to Ray's work she's highly [82:52] caffeinated the amount of work that [82:53] she's putting out on the repository but [82:55] in her in her post on on the taxonomies [82:59] she said it went from nothing to done in [83:02] two weeks. [83:03] >> Two weeks. Yeah. custom post types. We [83:05] were talking earlier, they [83:07] >> they should have been done 12 years ago, [83:09] >> something they've done. Um, uh, you can [83:13] you can go down the, [83:16] uh, the line of things that, uh, like [83:18] the connectors plugin, uh, to have AI [83:23] connectors, um, inside the WordPress [83:26] core went from an idea that Matt threw [83:28] out on like Friday afternoon to actually [83:31] being shipped seven days later. And I [83:35] think a lot of plug-in developers as [83:37] well are moving a lot more quickly. Um, [83:41] and there's just uh a a sense of [83:45] momentum that has come back to WordPress [83:48] that we'd lost. [83:49] >> Yeah, it's interesting. [83:50] >> Maybe 18 months. [83:51] >> Yeah. Yeah, I'm with you. [83:52] >> I agree. [83:54] >> This um this post though, I suppose [83:57] what's happened here, it feels like the [83:59] and I'm going to use the word [84:00] disgruntled because that's that's the [84:02] tenor of what I'm getting there. It [84:04] feels like Matt was be was becoming [84:06] disgruntled by atrophy by how the [84:08] processes that were in place which [84:10] appear to be have been impeded to quick [84:15] like move fast break things kind of [84:16] mentality [84:18] >> and um and there seems to be an [84:20] unpicking of all of that and a license [84:22] to just just go for it. So WordPress.org [84:25] you may may or may not be aware is [84:27] actually the property of Mr. Matt [84:29] Mullen. It's his personal thing. Uh some [84:32] people have opinions on that, but like [84:34] it or lump it, like it or hate it, [84:36] that's his website. And so he's within [84:38] his rights to say, "Right, crack on." [84:40] And that's basically what's happened. [84:42] He's given a a trusted, using air [84:44] quotes, a trusted um selection of people [84:47] cart blanch to do what they like and the [84:50] only impediment is they've got to report [84:52] to him. And I presume he has the you [84:54] know the final say. Yes. No. And we'll [84:56] see what goes on. So, it's people like [84:58] Anne McCarthy, it's Mary Hubard, it's [85:00] Null Talk, Western Rout. Um, where else [85:05] have we got? We've got Nick Hamsy in the [85:07] mix. There's a whole bunch of people and [85:09] I think a few others have jumped in as [85:11] well. So, expect some rapid change, I [85:14] would say. Let's see what the heck [85:16] happens in the days, weeks. Well, I [85:17] think it'll be days more than months, [85:19] maybe weeks. Um, and then something [85:22] similar uh for five for the future. Uh, [85:26] because time's running out, I won't get [85:27] into that. I'll just say go and have a [85:29] look at the article yourself. But, um, [85:31] similar things happening for the five [85:32] for the future as well. [85:35] Okay. Right. Okay. Uh, I don't know how [85:38] many of these we're going to be able to [85:39] get through because time is running out. [85:40] So, I'll just go through them quickly. [85:42] Joe Doulson has um written a piece about [85:45] the accessibility ready requirements [85:47] which have been updated. They haven't [85:49] been touched since well not say they [85:51] haven't been touched but they haven't [85:53] been modified in whole I think since [85:55] 2012 or something like that and [85:57] obviously in the accessibility space a [85:58] lot has changed since then. So he's [86:00] written up why it's changed and what has [86:03] changed. So go and check that out. Again [86:05] all the links uh in the show notes. [86:11] Oh I would just mention this one. Good [86:14] friend of mine Dan maybe wrote this post [86:16] on the WLDDN blog. I know the Reese has [86:19] been there recently. I've been there [86:21] recently and um the project WPLDN was on [86:26] the uh lookout for some sponsorships and [86:28] a hattip to the agency, the filter [86:31] agency who stepped up and uh offered [86:35] their um well opened up their wallet [86:37] basically to sponsor that event um at a [86:40] at a high level. So enabling that event [86:42] to go forwards. I will again link in the [86:45] show notes. What else have we got? I [86:48] think that's probably all that we've got [86:50] time for. Uh there's a few other Oh, no, [86:52] no, we'll just quickly do this one [86:53] because I know it's um it's Remus' [86:56] favorite subject. Cloudflare [86:58] this week um as as seems to be happening [87:01] all over the place. Cloudflare um [87:03] knocked I think 20% of their workforce. [87:06] Maybe that's the wrong number. Certainly [87:08] it's,00 people have been let go. Um, [87:12] this doesn't feel, from what I'm [87:14] reading, it doesn't feel like we're [87:16] suffering financially, so we're trying [87:17] to cut some fat. This feels like we're [87:20] aligning ourselves with what we think [87:22] the future's going to look like, and [87:23] that future doesn't involve lots of [87:25] humans sitting in chairs. Remus, I know [87:28] you know more and some of which you [87:30] probably embargoed on saying, but tell [87:32] us what your thoughts are. [87:35] >> Um, yeah, not financially motivated. um [87:40] and AI related. Uh not much to add [87:43] there. I think it's uh I think the way [87:46] you describe it is probably not entirely [87:48] the way you should look at it. Uh um AI [87:53] replacing, but it's more like how much [87:55] can you make AI part of your work type [87:57] of approach. [87:59] >> Okay. Um obviously sad news for those [88:02] people that have been affected, but um [88:04] yeah, I imagine at some point all of us [88:06] are using Cloudflare services. these [88:08] days. [88:08] >> If you if you just look at the stuff [88:10] they've been pumping out over the last [88:12] couple of months [88:13] >> that have either that are either [88:16] servicing parts of AI or are leaning on [88:19] AI or facilitating AI or built with AI, [88:24] >> right? [88:26] >> It should be pretty clear where this [88:27] company is headed, [88:28] >> right? I mean, the only bits that I've [88:30] really touched are the built with AI [88:32] different bits and pieces, you know, [88:34] like MDS and things like that. [88:36] The title the title of this blog post is [88:39] is spot on. [88:41] >> Building for the future is what that is [88:44] called. Yeah, sadly time has got the [88:46] better of us, but um anyway, there we [88:48] go. So, so, so um [88:52] in which case we will knock it on the [88:54] head just about there. There we go. That [88:57] wasn't We didn't get through everything, [88:58] but we got through the majority of it. [89:01] Another quick thanks to Steve for [89:02] knocking up what was probably the [89:04] majority of those show notes. Fully [89:06] appreciated that. Thank you. [89:07] >> Hey, I I built on the work of Ray at the [89:10] repository. Basically, [89:11] >> it is always thus um this show always [89:14] has I basically the way that this show [89:16] notes get put together is I wait for [89:18] Remus' newsletter to drop, which is [89:20] quite erratic at the minute. I've never [89:22] I used to be solidly a Friday. Now I'm [89:25] now sometimes Monday, maybe maybe just [89:27] randomly a Sunday here and there. Never [89:30] quite. [89:30] >> Yep. [89:31] But it's always it's always in time for [89:33] me anyway. So I crib crib what Ray's [89:35] written as well. Yeah. [89:36] >> I I much prefer it not being on a Friday [89:38] because Ray is on a Friday and they can [89:40] only read so much in a day. [89:42] >> She she alters it. It doesn't it's not [89:45] always on the Friday. So [89:47] >> but we cover different things. So [89:50] shouldn't be too much overlap. [89:51] >> But that's what I do as well. I I crib [89:53] from Remus. I crib from Ray and various [89:55] other places and just decide what I [89:56] think is of the most interest. But [89:58] anyway, Steve, it doesn't get away from [90:00] the fact that you still did it. So, I'm [90:01] very very grateful for you doing that. I [90:04] I will have to send you a book or [90:07] something. I I'll send you I'll secure [90:09] you the copy of [90:10] >> these three. [90:11] >> Yeah. The Gutenberg Parenthesis by Jeff [90:13] Jarvis. [90:15] Right. There we go. Um it only remains [90:17] for me to say thank you to our guests. [90:19] Let's go around. Oh, yeah. We got to do [90:20] the hands. Let's do the hands now, I [90:23] suppose. Let's do the hands. There we [90:24] go. Got the hands. Thank you. Um, but [90:27] thank you very much to Steve Burge from [90:30] Publish Press. Thank you to Remus from [90:32] Within WP and also The Guild. Go and [90:34] check that out. Links in the show notes. [90:36] And also Reesew from unpronouncable.com. [90:40] I can't I can't It'll be [90:43] >> Reese. [90:44] >> Yeah, I know. I just can't say it for [90:46] some reason. I don't know why. Right, [90:49] that's it. We will see you this time [90:51] next week. One would hope. Take it easy. [90:54] Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Now, a [90:56] question. Can I find the right bottom? [90:58] There it is. See you next week. Bye-bye.  📄 **Full text:** ![[Full Document Contents/Articles/'Licking and Rubbing' - This Week in WordPress 373.md|'Licking and Rubbing' - This Week in WordPress 373 by YouTube]] ## Highlights - of this week, I've just changed the article over. We're going to look at two pieces, but they basically tell the same story. Bit of a shock. Well, not maybe not. I don't know. I know that you particularly, Steve, have been following this real time collaboration thing, probably more closely than anybody else that I know. Um, it sounded from the bits and pieces that you were putting on Twitter or wherever I was finding you, you were increasingly kind of like amazed by what was possible. I saw a few ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kre43h5wgqcbvxbedqfdhh7c)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - videos where you were sort of fairly buoyant about it. Um, and then closer to the time obviously we had lots of problems brewing. The long and the short though is that in nine days time when WordPress 7 uh is released, this thing that we've been talking about for ages, this Google Docs style real um time editing um sorry real time collaboration RTC is is pulled. Um Matt Mulleng um has personally made the decision to remove ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kre43h86abrba8kgjbmtytm2)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - enough time to do the work and the hosts got involved with testing and let's just move on quite quickly to the same story only this time on um the repository. Um this one's called Matt Mullen pulls real time collaborative editing from WordPress 7.0. Um and then the title finishes off blames WP Engine litigation. That's kind of like a minor point in the story really, but same sort of thing. Um Matt says that he's going to take the heat for this because it was sort of basically his decision. He's ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kre43hexsc4dbgbzzt7fc2js)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - yeah, that too." And I think there's there's a lot of things in this where it's like for Google Docs, which is probably where most of us are familiar with, you know, um, real time editor, real time collaboration. It's for things like that. it it it has the you know it's just like a you know a word document or or something of that nature whereas there is so much that is editable and can be editable within WordPress that I just wouldn't know ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kre43hk0jy6jptdkkwfsjf53)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - it's pretty great. Um, and presumably as soon as as soon as WordPress masters this and it's an actual thing and it works, maybe a 100% of WordPress users will think it's great as well. But I don't know how many people need all of this stuff in the background. Um, >> I think that's a good remark because I think it's we we first of all, we're not tracking anything. So, we have absolutely zero clue and there's going to be tons of agencies once this is ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kre43hswm6c5jhdex1pn46g1)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - >> Yeah. Okay. So, once it's working and everybody's happy, then maybe we'll begin to invent ways to make it useful. Yeah. This is not like post formats. >> Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. All right. >> Using those. >> Using those. Okay. >> I have in the corner there. Yeah. Uh >> I've seen some talk of it like collaboration then being used inside the site editor. So people will be able to work on a design together. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kre43hxmmsp7e5xmw7ffpepd)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted