Bethel Church Service Kris Vallotton Sermon

Bethel Church Service | Kris Vallotton Sermon ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/s25IuN0oDrs/maxresdefault.jpg) Full Document Contents/Articles/Bethel Church Service Kris Vallotton Sermon.md, Bethel Church Service | Kris Vallotton Sermon, YouTube. ## Document Notes --- tags: [bethel-church, ministry-leadership, shepherding, social-media, church-discipline] author: Kris Vallotton source: Bethel Church reference: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s25IuN0oDrs] date created: 2024-12-19 18:30 --- # 🏷️ Title: The Complexities of Shepherding in the 21st Century ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Consider impact of public church discipline in internet age — 45:23 #leadership - [H2] Develop frameworks for pastoral confidentiality vs transparency — 52:17 #ethics - [H3] Balance protection of flock with grace for broken people — 38:45 #shepherding ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Bethel Church Service](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s25IuN0oDrs) - [Hebrews 13 - Leadership Accountability](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2013&version=ESV) ## 📝 Summary - Kris Vallotton addresses the unprecedented challenges of shepherding in the internet age, where global reach creates new pastoral responsibilities - Traditional church discipline and protection methods no longer work when everything becomes public and permanent - The internet has eliminated private "family talks" - addressing church issues now means addressing the world - Leaders face impossible choices between maintaining confidentiality and defending themselves against public accusations - Churches must balance being safe places for broken people while protecting the flock from intentional predators ## 📖 Main Content Vallotton explores how digital technology has fundamentally changed pastoral ministry. In pre-internet days, church discipline involved known community members where relationships provided context for behavior. Now pastors shepherd global audiences they've never met who still claim them as spiritual fathers. The core dilemma: traditional biblical principles for handling wolves and broken sheep assume closed communities. Social media makes every internal church matter a public spectacle, forcing leaders to choose between protecting confidentiality (losing their voice) or breaking trust (destroying their ministry). He distinguishes between broken people needing healing and actual predators, noting how internet dynamics make this distinction nearly impossible without relationship context. The permanent nature of online content means pastoral decisions have global, lasting consequences. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=0) — [H1] Student Testimonies Introduction - Key idea: BSSM students share family salvation testimonies - Evidence: "BSSM is the best school in the whole world... changing the lives of so many people" #### ⏱️ [03:47](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=227) — [H2] Talia's Sister's Conversion - Key idea: Consistent prayer and witness led to sister's transformation from atheism - Evidence: "I plead the blood of Jesus over her soul... she felt like it lifted off of her" #### ⏱️ [08:15](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=495) — [H2] Aelia's Kazakhstan Ministry - Key idea: Holy Spirit encounters led to multiple conversions in Muslim context - Evidence: "She started prophesying over me... I feel him. I know he is alive" #### ⏱️ [15:30](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=930) — [H1] Internet Age Shepherding Challenges - Key idea: Modern pastors face unprecedented global pastoral responsibilities - Evidence: "We're the first generation... who live with the internet and social media" #### ⏱️ [18:45](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=1125) — [H2] From Local to Global Pastoral Care - Key idea: Shepherding shifted from knowing everyone personally to managing unknown global audiences - Evidence: "Not a week goes by when two or three people don't... say you're my spiritual father" #### ⏱️ [22:10](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=1330) — [H2] Broken People vs Wolves Distinction - Key idea: Churches should welcome broken people while protecting from intentional predators - Evidence: "We want our churches to be full of broken people... you belong somewhere" #### ⏱️ [28:30](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=1710) — [H2] Small Town vs Large Church Dynamics - Key idea: Weaverville's 3,000 population allowed personal knowledge of everyone's story - Evidence: "You knew the wolf because everybody in town knew the wolf" #### ⏱️ [32:45](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=1965) — [H2] Church Growth and Streaming Challenges - Key idea: Growth to 10,000 people plus streaming created unknown congregation members - Evidence: "I've been at Bethel for three years. I'm like, I would swear I've never seen you" #### ⏱️ [35:20](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=2120) — [H2] No Delay Streaming Reality - Key idea: Live streaming eliminates editorial control over pastoral messages - Evidence: "There's no delay... whenever you share, they cannot edit" #### ⏱️ [38:15](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=2295) — [H2] David's Posthumous Responsibility - Key idea: Biblical precedent shows leaders responsible for people beyond their lifetime - Evidence: "Josiah... his father's name was David... David's been dead for 400 years" #### ⏱️ [42:30](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=2550) — [H1] End of Private Church Discipline - Key idea: No more "family talks" - addressing church equals addressing world - Evidence: "There's no such thing as telling it to the church without telling it to the world" #### ⏱️ [45:23](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=2723) — [H2] Internet as Permanent Record - Key idea: Online pastoral decisions have permanent, irreversible consequences - Evidence: "The internet's like the book of life. Like it doesn't get erased" #### ⏱️ [48:45](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=2925) — [H2] Juvenile Hall Encounter Story - Key idea: Personal story reveals how brokenness explains destructive behavior - Evidence: "My mother chose heroin when I was three instead of me" #### ⏱️ [52:17](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=3137) — [H1] Pastoral Confidentiality Dilemma - Key idea: Defending against accusations requires breaking pastoral confidentiality - Evidence: "Your life as a minister is over when you break confidence to defend yourself" #### ⏱️ [58:30](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=3510) — [H2] Social Media vs Legal Justice System - Key idea: Social media creates guilty-until-proven-innocent environment unlike legal system - Evidence: "In America, we are innocent until proven guilty... But not on social media" ## 📚 References - [Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry](https://bethel.edu/seminary/) - [Hebrews 13 - Leadership Accountability](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2013&version=ESV) - [Matthew 18 - Church Discipline Process](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2018:15-17&version=ESV) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Digital technology has fundamentally changed pastoral ministry by creating global responsibilities without personal relationships - Traditional biblical methods for church discipline assume closed communities but internet makes everything public and permanent - Leaders must choose between maintaining pastoral confidentiality and defending themselves against public accusations - Churches need new frameworks for distinguishing between broken people needing help and predators requiring removal ## 📰 Newsletter Ministry leaders face unprecedented challenges in the digital age that require new wisdom and approaches. Kris Vallotton's candid message addresses how internet connectivity has transformed pastoral care from local, relationship-based ministry to global responsibility for unknown followers. The core challenge: biblical principles for church discipline we > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [bethel-church, ministry-leadership, shepherding, social-media, church-discipline] > author: Kris Vallotton > source: Bethel Church > reference: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s25IuN0oDrs] > date created: 2024-12-19 18:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: The Complexities of Shepherding in the 21st Century >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Consider impact of public church discipline in internet age — 45:23 #leadership - [H2] Develop frameworks for pastoral confidentiality vs transparency — 52:17 #ethics - [H3] Balance protection of flock with grace for broken people — 38:45 #shepherding ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Bethel Church Service](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s25IuN0oDrs) - [Hebrews 13 - Leadership Accountability](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2013&version=ESV) ## 📝 Summary - Kris Vallotton addresses the unprecedented challenges of shepherding in the internet age, where global reach creates new pastoral responsibilities - Traditional church discipline and protection methods no longer work when everything becomes public and permanent - The internet has eliminated private "family talks" - addressing church issues now means addressing the world - Leaders face impossible choices between maintaining confidentiality and defending themselves against public accusations - Churches must balance being safe places for broken people while protecting the flock from intentional predators ## 📖 Main Content Vallotton explores how digital technology has fundamentally changed pastoral ministry. In pre-internet days, church discipline involved known community members where relationships provided context for behavior. Now pastors shepherd global audiences they've never met who still claim them as spiritual fathers. The core dilemma: traditional biblical principles for handling wolves and broken sheep assume closed communities. Social media makes every internal church matter a public spectacle, forcing leaders to choose between protecting confidentiality (losing their voice) or breaking trust (destroying their ministry). He distinguishes between broken people needing healing and actual predators, noting how internet dynamics make this distinction nearly impossible without relationship context. The permanent nature of online content means pastoral decisions have global, lasting consequences. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=0) — [H1] Student Testimonies Introduction - Key idea: BSSM students share family salvation testimonies - Evidence: "BSSM is the best school in the whole world... changing the lives of so many people" #### ⏱️ [03:47](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=227) — [H2] Talia's Sister's Conversion - Key idea: Consistent prayer and witness led to sister's transformation from atheism - Evidence: "I plead the blood of Jesus over her soul... she felt like it lifted off of her" #### ⏱️ [08:15](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=495) — [H2] Aelia's Kazakhstan Ministry - Key idea: Holy Spirit encounters led to multiple conversions in Muslim context - Evidence: "She started prophesying over me... I feel him. I know he is alive" #### ⏱️ [15:30](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=930) — [H1] Internet Age Shepherding Challenges - Key idea: Modern pastors face unprecedented global pastoral responsibilities - Evidence: "We're the first generation... who live with the internet and social media" #### ⏱️ [18:45](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=1125) — [H2] From Local to Global Pastoral Care - Key idea: Shepherding shifted from knowing everyone personally to managing unknown global audiences - Evidence: "Not a week goes by when two or three people don't... say you're my spiritual father" #### ⏱️ [22:10](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=1330) — [H2] Broken People vs Wolves Distinction - Key idea: Churches should welcome broken people while protecting from intentional predators - Evidence: "We want our churches to be full of broken people... you belong somewhere" #### ⏱️ [28:30](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=1710) — [H2] Small Town vs Large Church Dynamics - Key idea: Weaverville's 3,000 population allowed personal knowledge of everyone's story - Evidence: "You knew the wolf because everybody in town knew the wolf" #### ⏱️ [32:45](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=1965) — [H2] Church Growth and Streaming Challenges - Key idea: Growth to 10,000 people plus streaming created unknown congregation members - Evidence: "I've been at Bethel for three years. I'm like, I would swear I've never seen you" #### ⏱️ [35:20](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=2120) — [H2] No Delay Streaming Reality - Key idea: Live streaming eliminates editorial control over pastoral messages - Evidence: "There's no delay... whenever you share, they cannot edit" #### ⏱️ [38:15](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=2295) — [H2] David's Posthumous Responsibility - Key idea: Biblical precedent shows leaders responsible for people beyond their lifetime - Evidence: "Josiah... his father's name was David... David's been dead for 400 years" #### ⏱️ [42:30](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=2550) — [H1] End of Private Church Discipline - Key idea: No more "family talks" - addressing church equals addressing world - Evidence: "There's no such thing as telling it to the church without telling it to the world" #### ⏱️ [45:23](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=2723) — [H2] Internet as Permanent Record - Key idea: Online pastoral decisions have permanent, irreversible consequences - Evidence: "The internet's like the book of life. Like it doesn't get erased" #### ⏱️ [48:45](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=2925) — [H2] Juvenile Hall Encounter Story - Key idea: Personal story reveals how brokenness explains destructive behavior - Evidence: "My mother chose heroin when I was three instead of me" #### ⏱️ [52:17](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=3137) — [H1] Pastoral Confidentiality Dilemma - Key idea: Defending against accusations requires breaking pastoral confidentiality - Evidence: "Your life as a minister is over when you break confidence to defend yourself" #### ⏱️ [58:30](https://youtu.be/s25IuN0oDrs?t=3510) — [H2] Social Media vs Legal Justice System - Key idea: Social media creates guilty-until-proven-innocent environment unlike legal system - Evidence: "In America, we are innocent until proven guilty... But not on social media" ## 📚 References - [Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry](https://bethel.edu/seminary/) - [Hebrews 13 - Leadership Accountability](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2013&version=ESV) - [Matthew 18 - Church Discipline Process](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2018:15-17&version=ESV) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Digital technology has fundamentally changed pastoral ministry by creating global responsibilities without personal relationships - Traditional biblical methods for church discipline assume closed communities but internet makes everything public and permanent - Leaders must choose between maintaining pastoral confidentiality and defending themselves against public accusations - Churches need new frameworks for distinguishing between broken people needing help and predators requiring removal ## 📰 Newsletter Ministry leaders face unprecedented challenges in the digital age that require new wisdom and approaches. Kris Vallotton's candid message addresses how internet connectivity has transformed pastoral care from local, relationship-based ministry to global responsibility for unknown followers. The core challenge: biblical principles for church discipline were designed for closed communities where relationships provided context. Social media eliminates private correction, making every pastoral decision a public statement with permanent consequences. For ministry leaders, this means developing new frameworks that balance transparency with confidentiality, protection with grace, and local accountability with global influence. Resources: [Leadership Network](https://leadnet.org/), [Pastoral Care Inc](https://pastoralcareinc.com/), [Ministry Today](https://ministrytodaymag.com/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create content addressing ethical technology use in ministry - Education: Develop workshops on digital pastoral care best practices - Developer experience: Build tools for secure pastoral communication - Community management: Establish guidelines for handling public ministry conflicts #### Community - Maintainers: Develop governance for handling public accusations against leaders - Contributors: Create pathways for restoration after public failures - Sponsors: Ensure transparent processes for addressing misconduct allegations - Ecosystem: Build cross-ministry coordination for handling public crises #### WordPress - Core: Privacy-focused communication tools for pastoral care - Security Management: Confidential reporting systems for church issues - Community: Guidelines for handling public disputes in ministry contexts - Documentation: Best practices for digital ministry boundaries ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Traditional church discipline models become dysfunctional when applied to internet-connected communities - Pastoral effectiveness decreases as congregation size increases beyond personal relationship capacity - Social media dynamics create impossible choices between transparency and pastoral confidentiality - Global ministry influence requires new frameworks for accountability and protection ### 📊 Methodology - Comparative study of church discipline effectiveness pre and post-internet adoption - Survey data on pastoral stress levels correlated with congregation size and online presence - Case study analysis of public ministry conflicts and resolution outcomes - Interviews with pastors managing global vs local congregations ### ❓ Questions - How can churches maintain biblical discipline principles while operating in transparent digital environments? - What new accountability structures work for pastors with global influence but no institutional authority? - How should churches balance welcoming broken people with protecting vulnerable members? ### 🔮 Future Research - Development of digital-age pastoral care models balancing transparency and confidentiality - Study of effective church discipline in internet-connected communities - Investigation of legal frameworks for religious leaders in digital contexts ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Ministry leaders need new training for digital-age pastoral care - Policy: Churches require updated governance for handling public accusations - Security: Need for secure communication channels for sensitive pastoral matters - Education: Seminary curriculum must address internet-era ministry challenges - Funding: Investment in tools and training for digital pastoral care ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 8th grade (complex theological concepts presented conversationally) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Video format with speaker engagement - Improve: Diagrams showing evolution from local to global ministry challenges #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full audio sermon with emotional inflection - Improve: Podcast version with chapter markers for key concepts #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Extensive storytelling and analogies throughout message - Improve: Glossary of terms like "wolf," "shepherd," and church discipline concepts #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Personal testimonies providing concrete examples - Improve: Case study exercises for practicing digital-age pastoral decisions #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear progression from historical context to modern challenges - Improve: Decision trees for handling various pastoral scenarios #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Live church setting with audience interaction - Improve: Small group discussion guides for processing content #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Personal reflection prompts embedded in message - Improve: Private journaling questions about pastoral boundaries #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Agricultural metaphors (shepherds, wolves, sheep) - Improve: Environmental analogies about healthy vs toxic ecosystems ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear verbal content with logical flow - Improve: Transcript with proper heading structure and speaker identification #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Video player with standard controls - Improve: Chapter navigation for key sections #### Contrast and readability - Present: High contrast video with clear speaker visibility - Improve: Captioning with sufficient contrast ratios #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Video scales appropriately - Improve: Transcript that reflows properly at 200% zoom #### Media and captions - Present: Audio available, video format - Improve: Professional captions, downloadable transcript #### Forms and interactions - Present: Basic video interface - Improve: Interactive elements properly labeled ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: International student testimonies from Kazakhstan - Improve: Address cultural differences in church discipline approaches #### Inclusive language - Present: Gender-neutral terms where appropriate - Improve: Avoid assuming all cultures have same family/church structures #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Conversational tone, personal stories - Improve: Content warnings for discussions of abuse and trauma #### Representation - Present: Female international students given platform - Improve: Address how challenges vary across cultural contexts #### Psychological safety - Present: Acknowledges complexity and brokenness - Improve: Content warnings for abuse discussions, clearer support resources ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Strong progression from biblical principles to modern application challenges - Inductive strength: Multiple personal examples support broader claims about internet-age ministry - Causal reasoning: Clear connections between technology adoption and pastoral challenges - Analogical strength: Effective use of family dynamics to explain church relationships #### Fallacies - False dilemma: Presents choice between confidentiality and transparency as binary when middle paths may exist - Appeal to tradition: Assumes traditional methods were always effective without examining their limitations #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Vulnerable, defensive, and frustrated while trying to maintain pastoral authority ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: Explicitly denies accusations of failing to confront abuse: "Nobody who knows me would ever accuse me of that" - Attack: Attacks critics' motives: "people make huge amounts of money in media" - Reverse victim/offender: Positions leaders as victims of unfair internet dynamics and broken accusers - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Uses personal trauma stories to build sympathy and justify defensive responses ## 🎯 Conclusion Vallotton identifies a genuine challenge facing modern ministry: how to apply biblical principles designed for closed communities to internet-connected global audiences. While his concerns about social media dynamics and pastoral confidentiality are valid, the message reveals defensive positioning around accusations against Bethel leadership. The core insight remains valuable: digital technology requires new frameworks for pastoral care that balance transparency, protection, and restoration. Ministry leaders need training and tools for navigating public accountability while maintaining pastoral relationships. Future solutions likely involve developing new governance models, secure communication channels, and clear policies that protect both victims and accused parties while maintaining the church's mission to welcome broken people seeking healing. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad Purpose: Stage CEE units that become Literature notes. Split level: H3 ### [H1] Internet eliminates private church discipline > [!quote] [The Complexities --- ## Full Transcript [00:01] [applause] [00:03] [cheering] [00:07] Wow. Thank you. [00:10] [applause] [00:13] You can sit down. Thank you. And we have [00:16] a couple of BSSM students. Did I Did I [00:21] [cheering] [00:24] Did I add too many S's in there? BSSM [00:27] students who are, you know, BSSM is the [00:30] best school in the whole world. [00:34] I might be just a little bit biased. I [00:37] don't know, maybe just a little bit [00:38] biased, but it's changing the lives of [00:40] so many people. And I think uh four of [00:43] my grandkids have went through BSSM and [00:46] my son and my daughter-in-law. And uh so [00:50] we we it's a family affair. And when [00:52] your own family will go through your [00:53] school ministry when they grow up in [00:55] your home, I think that's the best [00:57] compliment a person can actually have. [00:59] And so it's changing lives. And I just [01:01] thought it'd be great if we just had a [01:03] couple of testimonies from a couple [01:04] students. Why don't you come on up? You [01:06] can say your name because they told me [01:08] your name and I started I couldn't even [01:09] spell it. Sorry. [laughter] [01:11] >> Hello. I am a BSSM um first year [01:15] student. My name is Talia. [01:20] I don't know how you spell that, but [01:22] >> T H A L I A. [01:26] >> I didn't even get close. [laughter] [01:29] >> Well, um yeah, so coming into BSSM, um [01:33] my family had experienced just a a loss [01:37] uh of a loved one. And so coming in, it [01:40] was super hard and um just leaving my [01:43] family, you know, behind in that season. [01:46] And I remember coming and and just [01:50] surrendering it to the Lord and leaving [01:52] it in his hands. And and um so [01:58] for a couple years I had been contending [02:01] for my older sister. She identified as [02:05] um agnostic atheist and I would tell her [02:08] to pray to Jesus and she would say no I [02:11] don't I don't believe in that. And [02:15] so coming here, I would just [02:18] continuously pray, "No, Lord, I plead [02:21] the blood of Jesus over her soul." [02:23] >> Come on. [02:24] >> Um during one king and the overnight [02:27] prayer, there was a poster that said, [02:29] "Uh, we'll be saved." And I wrote her [02:32] name down. And then going into [02:35] Thanksgiving break, [02:37] um we were having this open conversation [02:39] and I was telling her about everything [02:41] that was happening here with me. and she [02:44] looked at me and she said, "A few nights [02:46] ago, um, I was praying. I started to [02:50] pray to to Jesus." [02:53] And my sister had been struggling with [02:55] depression for a few years. [02:58] And she said that when she started [03:00] praying, she felt like it lifted off of [03:03] her and she felt this peace and joy. [03:06] Just [03:07] >> Wow. [03:08] It's amazing. [03:10] >> Yeah. She felt this piece of [03:13] >> Did you listen to one of my sermons? [03:16] >> Most likely. Yeah. [03:20] >> Sorry. [03:22] >> Just come over her. And she said that [03:24] she went asleep so peaceful that night [03:26] that the next morning when she woke up, [03:28] she felt that same way. And when she was [03:32] speaking, I mean, she was just radiating [03:35] the glory of God. And the following uh [03:39] break when we were together, she would [03:42] come to my family and be like, "All [03:44] right, what time we going to church?" [03:46] [laughter] [03:47] I even gifted her a Bible and she had um [03:52] she she had thanked me for it and she [03:54] said, "Wow, this is so beautiful." And [03:57] so the Lord's been really tugging at my [04:00] my extended family members as well. We [04:03] were having open discussion at the [04:05] dining room table, just saying [04:08] testimonies, talking about the Lord, and [04:11] my 13-year-old cousin just starts [04:13] weeping. And he's like, "I don't know [04:15] why I'm crying right now." And it's [04:17] like, we were like, "It's the Holy [04:18] Spirit. It's Jesus." We got the chance [04:21] to pray over him. He received the Lord. [04:24] [laughter] [04:26] Yes. [04:29] [applause] [04:29] Yeah. And and then I had another cousin [04:32] and I was praying over her too, just [04:35] contending for her soul and and she [04:38] ended up reaching out to me saying, [04:39] "Hey, I want to get closer to the Lord. [04:41] Uh, what translation of the Bible do you [04:44] recommend?" [04:47] Yeah. [applause] [04:50] Yeah. [04:52] And so I'm just here to say that prayers [04:56] do work. [laughter] [04:58] And it is the Lord's love language to [05:00] answer them. And I just release my [05:04] testimony onto everybody else in this [05:06] room that the Lord will save your family [05:11] members. [05:13] And it's not going to be by striving by [05:15] works, but it's it's just going to be [05:18] out of the puress of his love and by [05:20] representing him. [05:27] [applause] [05:29] >> Hi, my name is Aelia. I am first year [05:33] student at BSSM [05:35] and Y. [05:39] I'm I'm from Kazakhstan. [05:41] Yes. [05:44] And [05:46] before going to the winter holidays, I [05:49] was so excited. We we I attended two [05:53] AMTs, which is intimacy with a God with [05:57] Leslie Krenle and Dylan Nas. [06:00] >> Yes. [cheering] [06:01] And the second AMC impact your floor [06:04] with Tom Krenle is and his amazing team [06:07] JP and David. [06:10] It impacted my life so much. Thank you [06:12] for doing that. I'm not the same [06:15] anymore. And when I when I came to [06:19] Kazakhstan [06:21] the first day, I met my friends and one [06:24] of my friends said, "Aelia, I would love [06:26] to receive Jesus." [06:29] >> Yes. And I was like, "Are you sure?" [06:34] She goes, "Yes." So I decided I made my [06:38] decision to follow him. So in the south [06:41] Kazakhstan where I live, it's a region [06:44] where mostly Kazak people live and since [06:47] the since their birth, they are [06:48] considered to be Muslims and it is uh [06:52] when the Kazak girl or Kazak man [06:55] receives Jesus, it's a little bit like [06:58] ridiculous for them and they consider [07:00] you as a like kind of betrayal like [07:03] betrayer. So what she did, she received [07:06] Jesus and I go like, "Let's go and [07:09] celebrate it." And we went together to [07:12] have some meal. We were talking and [07:14] having some fun together. Her older [07:17] sister contacted her by messaging and [07:21] she asked what she's doing. She said she [07:23] met me and we are sitting together. She [07:26] asked if she can join. We we invited her [07:29] to sit with us and have some meal. We [07:32] talked and during the conversation her [07:36] sister says I said I'm feeling [07:38] something. I'm like what are you [07:40] feeling? She says I feel electricity all [07:43] over my body. [screaming] [07:47] And she looked at me and she started [07:51] prophesying over me saying [laughter] [07:53] like I see you. And she goes [08:00] yes. And it it resonated with me. I was [08:04] literally shocked what's going on here. [08:08] And I started like just sharing about [08:12] Jesus. And she said, "I feel him. I know [08:16] he is alive. I would love to receive him [08:18] into my life." [08:20] >> Yes. [cheering] [08:27] We prayed together. She started crying [08:30] and she said she has never felt peace [08:33] like that and she hasn't cried for so [08:37] many years already like for a long long [08:39] time and we were sitting and so [08:44] therefore five of us three of us are [08:47] believers now like this four of us are [08:49] believers two two others are [08:51] pre-believers [08:53] so [08:56] so one of the believers says, "I'm not [08:59] feeling really well." And I asked, [09:01] "Okay, can we pray for you?" And I asked [09:04] a new believer to pray for her. So she [09:08] laid her hand and she thanked father for [09:11] her and she said, "Be healed in the name [09:13] of Jesus Christ and she was healed [09:16] instantly." Yeah. [09:21] Y [09:23] and the new believer said like I [09:27] received Jesus into my life. Is it okay [09:30] that I'm not feeling well too? [09:33] I said okay like let's pray. She said [09:36] can you pray for me? And I remember uh [09:39] at the intimacy of God's lesson we had a [09:42] practical exercise when you without [09:45] talking you just release presence like [09:48] prophesy over a person. What I did I [09:51] just came up to her took her hand and I [09:55] was planning like to tune in a little [09:57] bit and she says what are you doing? I'm [10:02] like what am I doing? And she said, "The [10:05] power came from here and went into my [10:08] ears." I was like, "Oh my." So that was [10:13] amazing. [10:18] YES. [10:22] [laughter] [10:25] YES. And so after a few days I heard [10:30] that my school teacher got a cancer [10:33] [snorts] and I called her and asked uh [10:36] can I come and visit you and she goes [10:38] yes please come. I got some groceries [10:41] went to visit her prepared some soup of [10:44] Kazak real soup and we were sitting like [10:48] eating talking and she asked where are [10:52] you at life now? What are you doing? And [10:54] I told her that I that I am attending [10:56] BSSM and I'm following Jesus and I [11:00] shared a bit what we we are being taught [11:03] here. I shared about Jesus what he has [11:06] done on the cross. Yes. She has she [11:09] asked some questions and she said I said [11:12] I would love to receive Jesus into my [11:14] life. Yes. [11:18] Yay. [11:22] While I was going there and around like [11:25] I was not able to spend some time with [11:28] my sister who I actually prayed for here [11:31] at school right before going to the [11:33] winter holidays. We had a prayer meeting [11:35] especially for our families like sisters [11:38] and brothers and uh I bought a secret [11:42] kit to another city to visit my friend [11:46] who is in jail and actually like this [11:50] friend who is in jail. She has been [11:51] there for four years now. Two years ago [11:54] she received Jesus and she shares the [11:57] gospel over there. And while I was there [12:00] in my city, the girl from that jail that [12:04] knows my friend was justified and moved [12:08] to my city to attend our church. That [12:11] was good news. [12:13] And Yes. [12:17] Yeah. And so I was about so 25th of [12:21] December, Christmas day, the day when I [12:26] like honored Jesus when he was born into [12:28] this life and I'm going to the airport. [12:33] I know 4 a.m. and my sister goes like I [12:36] really felt bad that I was not able to [12:38] spend some time with her. She was into [12:41] the um like shamanic healing. She she [12:45] tried to heal people uh like we're using [12:49] like some wrong spirits and yeah and she [12:53] goes I would love to see you off and I [12:56] go like oh no need stay home [13:00] it's 4:00 a.m. too early. No need rest. [13:03] Have a good rest. You'll be going to to [13:06] the work in the morning. She goes, "No, [13:07] no, I would love to go." And I go, [13:09] "Okay, let's go." And she drives me to [13:12] the airport. We are talking and she's [13:15] sharing about her life, what what [13:17] changes has she has been seeing in her [13:20] life. And I saw like saw the piece was [13:24] stolen totally. [13:27] And I could see all the years stolen [13:30] everything. She was so desperate. We [13:32] talked a little bit and we went to the [13:35] airport to the registration desk and we [13:38] we we were just about saying bye. So see [13:41] you next time. And I see like she's [13:44] weeping without any sound. And she just [13:47] goes, I see I would love to receive [13:50] Jesus. YES. [13:55] [cheering] [13:59] That's crazy. Yes. [14:03] Yes. Jesus. YES. [14:07] [laughter] [14:10] YES. YES. [14:13] And every so everything happens at the [14:17] airport. people all over around Kazak [14:21] men, women, everyone is there and like [14:25] okay let's pray and we are standing [14:28] there and praying in the name of Jesus [14:32] Christ [14:34] >> and she says Jesus I receive you as my [14:37] savior and my lord and she starts [14:40] coughing and throws up. [14:44] OH MY GOSH. OKAY. [14:48] So what happened? She says she had a [14:51] lump that bothered her for several [14:54] months. She couldn't sleep well. She she [14:57] had this torments, panic attacks, and [14:59] everything. And she said she feels so [15:03] good now, like delivered, released. And [15:06] yeah, [screaming] [15:10] so good. [15:12] And [applause] [15:14] so the the landing started. I was like I [15:18] was sitting on my seat at a plane. I was [15:22] just like analyzing everything what [15:24] happened and I was like Jesus it's like [15:27] it's Christmas day 25th of December. My [15:30] sister got to know you. She received you [15:33] as as your her own savior and lord. So [15:37] she dedicated her life to you. She you [15:39] delivered her and actually you delivered [15:42] me too because I realized I didn't fear [15:48] at all while I was there at the airport. [15:52] >> And that was beautiful. Yes. Yes. [15:56] [applause] [15:59] Yeah. And I I believe that we are born [16:03] to arrange some parties in heaven. Yes. [16:07] Beautiful. [applause] [16:10] You can take that down. Great job. Wow. [16:14] [applause] [16:18] How many of you need a little bit of [16:20] that for your own family right here? [16:23] Yeah. While she's sharing, I was [16:24] thinking about all my family that need [16:26] to cough up something and [16:28] get a little more Jesus in there. Times [16:31] you got to make room for him like Bill [16:33] was talking about today. Okay. Okay. [16:35] Well, grab a hand and we're going to get [16:38] a date. Uh we're going to pray. [16:41] Holy Spirit, if you're watching online, [16:43] pray with us. Thank you, Lord, for what [16:45] you're doing all over the world. Thank [16:47] you for the power of the spirit that [16:50] transforms people and nations. God, [16:53] thank you for grace and mercy. God, that [16:56] we are saved by grace through mercy. And [16:59] I Lord I pray your blessing tonight as [17:02] we share as you teach God that we would [17:05] be uh inspired and we also find the fear [17:09] of the Lord God in the midst of our our [17:11] lives that would guide us towards you [17:13] and not away from you God in Jesus name. [17:16] Amen. [17:18] >> I want to [17:20] I I have a a unique message tonight. I I [17:24] don't know I ever preach a message like [17:25] this and I may not get all the way [17:27] through it. will see. But I I've been [17:29] thinking about the complexities of [17:32] shephering people in the 21st century [17:35] >> and the different dynamics and you see, [17:37] you know, people all over the internet [17:39] and social media. There's, you know, [17:41] lots of people positive, negative, and [17:43] talking about, you know, their [17:45] experiences with the body of Christ or [17:47] with leaders or obviously in the world. [17:49] There's so much fake news, right? It's [17:52] all mixed in there and it's really hard [17:53] to even trust a story. you see a person [17:56] that you know and uh and they're saying [17:59] crazy stuff and you realize it's AI and [18:00] it's nothing to do with what they said [18:02] and stories that people write are just [18:05] sometimes crazy. But I I want to talk a [18:08] little bit about the complexities that I [18:10] see that we face every day and uh and [18:14] talk through like what is it like [18:16] shephering people in the 21st century [18:19] with we're the first generation of [18:22] fathers and mothers and brothers and [18:23] sisters who live with the internet and [18:26] social media and we live with you know I [18:29] mean 20 maybe what 25 years ago if you [18:32] had a complaint if you felt that you [18:34] were abused or you had a story. You [18:37] pretty much had to go find someone that [18:39] had a media outlet, you know, a uh a Fox [18:42] News or something to try to tell your [18:44] story. And and there was maybe a little [18:47] bit of vetting like is this a credible [18:49] story? Maybe there's some background [18:51] somebody does a background to see if [18:54] your story is actually credible. But [18:56] what happened with the internet and then [18:58] social media especially what in the last [19:00] 12 15 years is everybody has really the [19:04] same reach and you can tell your story [19:08] it's it could be credible it could not [19:09] be credible and uh and you could tell [19:12] your side of the story without another [19:14] side of the story and and then you know [19:17] we as uh shepherds one of the tasks of [19:20] shepherds is to shepherd the flock and [19:23] protect the flock and protecting the [19:25] flock flock 30 years ago when your flock [19:29] was in your building is quite different [19:32] than to how do you protect your flock [19:35] when it's in you know 72 countries and [19:40] it includes hundreds of thousands and [19:42] maybe millions of people who are [19:44] influenced by you and and and the so [19:47] many of people I don't know sometimes [19:50] maybe loosely you know call us father [19:52] and mother and this is my family and I I [19:55] can't even I mean there's not a week [19:57] that goes by I I would probably be [19:59] exaggerating to say not a day goes by [20:01] but not a week goes by when two or three [20:03] people don't email me, text me, call me, [20:06] come to a conference and say you don't [20:08] know me but you're my spiritual father [20:11] or Bill's my spiritual father. This is [20:13] my family. And I'm like and I'm like [20:15] wow, you know the responsibility. [20:18] Hebrews chapter 13 talks about leaders [20:22] um and it it says it it it says uh it [20:25] talks about the fact that leaders [20:27] actually give an account for your soul. [20:30] And then it says as a as a follower as a [20:33] as a as a sheep. It says that you should [20:36] actually you should actually honor your [20:39] leaders in a way that that it's uh that [20:42] it's that it's easy for them to shepherd [20:45] you and to give an account for your [20:46] soul. And I'm like, I don't know how [20:48] this is going to work when we get to [20:50] heaven. You know, is the Lord going to [20:51] say, "Hey, those people in, you know, [20:54] Pakistan who you were shephering and [20:57] giving oversight for their souls, you [20:58] didn't do a good job." I don't know. I'm [21:00] like, "Lord, I didn't even know who [21:01] those people are." And so, you know, and [21:04] then the Bible, of course, is written in [21:06] the agricultural age and and it it talks [21:09] about shephering people and how do you [21:11] deal with people who fail and how do you [21:13] deal with wolves who come in and [21:15] actually try to try to intentionally [21:17] hurt the flock? And there's a big [21:19] difference between broken people who are [21:21] un kind of unsafe and somebody who's [21:24] intentionally trying to lead people [21:25] away. And and sometimes it's hard to [21:28] know the difference between a broken [21:30] person. And how many you know we want [21:31] our churches to be full of broken [21:33] people. We want the broken. And and we [21:38] we want the broken. We want the sinner. [21:41] We want the sick. We want the people who [21:43] need a miracle. [21:45] >> People we heard about tonight. Like we [21:47] want them to feel welcome in our church. [21:50] >> Oh people. Your your church is full of [21:52] broken people. That is a beautiful [21:53] compliment that broken people are [21:56] looking for a place to find a family and [21:59] get healed and and you know you choose [22:01] your friends but you don't choose your [22:02] family [22:05] [laughter] [22:07] you guys aren't laughing [22:09] cuz you don't have my family [22:12] and you know I don't know everybody has [22:13] a crazy uncle right [22:16] [laughter] maybe you're like yeah you're [22:18] my crazy uncle [22:20] everybody has a crazy uncle everybody [22:22] has a, you know, a, you know, kind of a [22:24] lunatic aunt, you know, so like a a [22:27] cousin who's like not totally, you know, [22:30] and and when you invite your friends [22:32] over for Christmas and your family's [22:34] there, you're like you're hoping that [22:35] your crazy uncle doesn't show [22:38] and they always do. [22:41] And it's just part of it's part of being [22:44] a family is that you belong somewhere. [22:47] >> No matter your condition, [22:49] >> you belong somewhere. Right. [22:51] >> And and and it's, you know, I I don't [22:54] know if this has ever happened to you, [22:55] but some I get embarrassed of the way [22:57] people behave in certain places and I'm [22:59] like, "Oh my gosh." You know, and then I [23:01] think it's a blessing that people who [23:04] are needing help can find a place, a [23:09] healthy place to get well. Yeah. [23:12] >> And it's uh it's always a challenge, you [23:15] know, to gosh, as we've grown, you know, [23:18] when we were in Weverville, everybody [23:20] knew everybody. Like, you knew the wolf [23:23] because everybody in town knew the wolf. [23:26] Again, it didn't even take discernment. [23:28] Like, that person had a reputation for [23:30] leading people astray and doing bad [23:32] things to people. And you were, you [23:33] know, when that person would come in the [23:35] room, you're praying that they get [23:36] delivered and healed and cough up [23:38] something, you know, [23:40] but you're on high alert. Like all the [23:42] elders are on high alert. You know who [23:44] that person is. And and and once in a [23:46] while a stranger comes in that nobody [23:48] knows. But when you're in town of 3,000, [23:50] there's not a lot of strangers. And when [23:52] you have nine businesses in a town of [23:53] 3,000, you pretty much know everybody. [23:57] And you know the broken people and you [23:59] know their story. And so you're, you [24:00] know, you're shephering people that you [24:02] actually have a relationship with. And [24:04] maybe they don't come to church, but [24:06] they're in your business. They're [24:07] they're you see them in the post office. [24:09] You have to go to the post office, get [24:10] your mail, and you there's just a lot of [24:12] interaction with people. So the the [24:15] challenge of, hey, how's that person [24:18] really doing is not that big because you [24:21] see them so often and you hear their [24:23] stories. And then you come, you know, [24:25] then we come here and at the time the [24:27] church is a thousand people and there's [24:29] no streaming. There's there's there's [24:32] there's no internet. We're not on [24:33] internet. And basically the people we [24:35] see, they're they're in the room and and [24:38] you're seeing the basic, you know, out [24:40] of a 900 people or a thousand people [24:42] that are in the room. You know, there [24:44] may be 1,200 people in our church that [24:46] you're rotating through. And after, you [24:48] know, when you're doing four or five [24:49] services a week with the same people, [24:51] you pretty much get to know them. you [24:53] kind of get the idea of, you know, who's [24:55] really broken, who's needing help, who [24:58] was a former drug addict, who's still on [25:00] drugs, but trying to find their way, and [25:02] you you kind of know their story. And so [25:05] like pastoring those people, it's it's, [25:07] you know, it's not I don't mean this in [25:10] an arrogant way, but it's it's not like [25:12] it's not like rocket science, you know, [25:14] and you and you can kind of and what [25:16] happens is is when you're pastoring [25:19] people on that level that you actually [25:21] have some level of relationship with, [25:24] you are as as a as a as a leadership [25:27] kind of conductor, you're like, "Hey, [25:29] Barbara, can you connect with that [25:30] person?" like your gift will work great [25:33] with them. Can you walk with them for a [25:35] while? Can you maybe their journey was [25:37] your journey? Maybe you were We have [25:39] people on our staff that were former [25:40] drug addicts and now they've been [25:42] delivered and and and they have [25:44] expertise in that area. Maybe they're a [25:46] former uh homosexual or gay and and like [25:49] Ken and Elizabeth and they've come out [25:50] of that lifestyle and you're like, "Hey, [25:52] this person is trying to come out. Can [25:53] you connect with them?" And and you get [25:56] really like good at shephering people. [25:59] And then we start to grow [26:02] and and now you know now we're like [26:04] 2,000 people, 3,000 people, 4,000 [26:07] people, 5,000 people. And right before [26:10] COVID, we were 10,000 people in eight [26:13] services. And we're not even counting [26:16] streaming yet. And all of a sudden, they [26:20] creates a whole different dynamic. [26:22] You're literally pastoring people that [26:24] you don't remember seeing [26:26] who are coming up to you and you're [26:27] like, I've been at Bethl for three [26:29] years. I'm like, I would swear I've [26:31] never seen you. I'm sorry I don't know [26:34] you. [26:36] Enter into outer dark. No, I'm just [26:38] kidding. I never knew you. [26:41] I'm like, Lord, I know why you never [26:43] knew those people. There's a lot of [26:44] people to know. [26:47] And it creates another dynamic. Uh it [26:50] creates another dynamic. And then social [26:53] media begins. And I'll never forget the [26:56] first time that we streamed. For some [26:59] reason, I got the pioneering first [27:02] streaming. Now, the only reason I [27:04] remember that is because my wife at 3:00 [27:09] in the morning, I woke up for natural [27:11] reasons. [27:14] And my wife was already awake, which [27:16] doesn't usually happen. And when I woke [27:18] up to go to the bathroom, she goes, [27:20] "Hey, you know, tomorrow they're [27:22] streaming [27:23] I'm like, "Yeah, she hasn't been asleep [27:25] yet." Yeah. And she goes, "You know, [27:28] there's no delay. [27:31] There's no delay in the streaming. Like, [27:33] whenever you share, they cannot edit. [27:40] Is this a true story? Raise your hand. [27:42] Tell them it's a true story." Yes. Yes. [27:45] And I go, "Oh, no. There's a there's a [27:47] 10-second delay." She goes, "No, I [27:48] called them. There ain't no delay. [27:53] And she's like, and she's concerned [27:55] because we're about to stream to we [27:59] don't even know how big the audience is, [28:00] but obviously bigger than the room to a [28:03] few thousand people the first day. And [28:06] she's concerned that [28:09] I'm [28:11] too [28:14] much. [28:19] What' you say? [28:23] cuz I I'm like I externally process from [28:26] the podium. [28:29] And then I mean I I did have a message. [28:31] This is a while ago. This is a long time [28:32] ago, actually about 20 years ago. And I [28:34] was preaching this message and all of a [28:35] sudden I felt inspired by the Holy [28:37] Spirit. [28:40] And I was chasing this rabbit like you [28:42] know like preachers often do except for [28:44] when I got about 15 minutes into it, I [28:45] remember I realized it was totally [28:47] unscriptural. [28:49] And I go, "Oh, that's not actually in [28:52] the Bible." And then I just went on to [28:55] change the message back. [28:58] Bill's in the front row and he's just [28:59] like, "Unbelievable." [29:03] So, you know, so she she's like, "She's [29:06] been with me since she was 12." So, [29:07] she's like, "There's no delay." [29:12] So, you know, all of these things are [29:14] just they're they're the evolution of [29:17] shephering people that aren't in the [29:19] room. Trying to understand what is our [29:23] responsibility for people who aren't in [29:25] the room, who still call us father. [29:28] >> And and and and to think that there is [29:31] no responsibility isn't actually [29:32] biblical. You think about David and and [29:35] you know um for example the a guy named [29:38] Josiah was prophesied to be king and he [29:40] didn't become king. He it was it was 37 [29:44] 370 years from the prophecy to the time [29:47] he became king. And it says Josiah was 8 [29:50] years old when he became king and his [29:52] mother's name was Jadiah and his [29:54] father's name was David as in King [29:57] David. [29:58] >> Only one thing David's been dead for 400 [30:00] years. [30:01] But how many know your personal victory [30:04] when you win a personal victory with [30:06] God, you become a corporate covering so [30:08] that people who identify with Christ [30:11] identified with King David who in who [30:14] who who was, you know, a man after God's [30:16] heart. I'm pointing out that that David [30:18] was responsible for people that weren't [30:20] even on earth. He he wasn't on earth. [30:22] They weren't on earth when he was on [30:23] earth. So So there So there is I don't [30:27] I'm trying to process externally with [30:28] you. I never even thought about these [30:30] things until a few weeks ago. I mean, in [30:34] this way, like, wow, we are responsible [30:36] for people we don't even know. [30:39] >> And then we're trying to apply [30:40] principles like like we would at [30:43] Weaverville. Like, there's a wolf among [30:44] us. I I can tell you that we've had [30:47] three or four of those conversations in [30:49] the 20 years we were in Weaverville. I I [30:51] mean honestly in our elders meeting [30:53] saying that person leads people astray [30:56] specifically I remember one and there [30:58] was probably two or three who he would [31:00] come into our church and he was known to [31:02] do this in other churches and he would [31:04] seduce our women he'd end up in bed with [31:07] some of our newest believers and they [31:10] would fall away and so he had a [31:12] reputation for that. So we like we mark [31:14] you know we marked him in that way. It's [31:15] like, hey, he can come in, but he needs [31:18] to [31:22] >> behave. [31:24] >> That was a good way to say behave. other [31:26] things came into my mind [31:34] and and and you know and I remember that [31:36] a couple of people got invited out [31:38] because of their their actually were um [31:41] at that time hopefully they got [31:43] converted but they were actually [31:44] seducing people and so you know and so [31:48] you know it's like and then and then we [31:51] have on the internet we have people [31:54] applying those principles that you live [31:56] by keeping people safe. Are you a good [31:59] shepherd? Are you warning people about [32:01] wolves [32:03] to a global audience? [32:06] And I'm like, well, those are really [32:09] good questions. Those are really good [32:11] questions because the other thing that's [32:14] happened in the 21st century is there's [32:16] no more family talks. [32:20] You don't you don't have a family talk. [32:22] So, you know, we're where um [32:25] where Jesus talked about in Matthew [32:28] chapter 6 when he talked about [32:30] forgiveness and he said that I if if you [32:34] go to a person [32:36] and he's sinned against you and then you [32:38] take another person and then you take [32:40] another person and that doesn't work, [32:41] you tell it to the church. Well, there [32:44] there's no such thing as telling it to [32:45] the church without telling it to the [32:46] world anymore. [32:48] If you expose somebody from the podium [32:52] within a day, people who you didn't plan [32:57] to have that message sent to them, [32:59] >> have that message sent to them. [33:01] >> And you have to decide like, are you [33:04] really, really, really, really, really, [33:05] really sure that you want to publicly [33:10] expose somebody who's in some form of [33:12] the process? Are you ready for that? [33:17] because because you don't know people [33:18] like you did when you were in [33:19] Weaverville. Like are you really sure [33:22] that's the right thing to do? Because as [33:24] soon as you say, you know, Henry is [33:29] unsafe or say something like that, [33:34] you just destroy that person's [33:36] reputation. Yeah, [33:40] >> you just better be very sure because [33:45] >> putting something on the internet's like [33:48] like the book of life. [33:50] >> Like it doesn't get erased. [33:53] >> Or what Jesus said, every word that you [33:56] spoke on earth, you will give an account [33:58] for. Like the internet's like that. You [34:00] you can't take it back. You can delete [34:01] it from the internet, but someone copied [34:03] it and it's back up there again. [34:06] So I'm pointing out that the process of [34:10] how you deal with people and how well do [34:12] you know that problem? How well do you [34:14] know that person? Do you actually are [34:16] you sure that that person is actually [34:19] trying to be evil? [34:22] Are you sure? [34:24] Uh, you know, my kids uh uh several of [34:27] my grandkids live in town and um several [34:29] of them um went to school here and uh [34:33] two or three Kathy can correct me, but I [34:34] think three of my grandkids who went to [34:36] high school here, they went to BCS and [34:39] then they went to high school. And when [34:40] they got to high school, three of them, [34:41] I think two or three of them out of I [34:44] have 11 grandkids and two great [34:45] grandkids. when they got to high school, [34:48] the whole Bethl stigma [34:51] uh that happens in our our own community [34:53] here. Um because of Bill and I leading [34:58] this thing, my grandkids were constantly [35:01] harassed for their grandfather's [35:02] position and finally left school. [35:06] I'm pointing out that what people say on [35:09] the internet costs families. [35:13] And if your father does something that [35:17] feels wrong or whatever and your last [35:21] name is, I don't know, let's say Jones [35:23] just cuz it's a popular name or Smith [35:25] and you're a Smith and your father did [35:28] something or your mother did something [35:30] and you publicly rebuke that person, you [35:32] shamed the entire family line. Like, are [35:35] you really ready to do that? [35:38] because [35:40] and and and I I'm asking myself the [35:42] question when they come up like like are [35:45] you are you ready to do that because you [35:47] can't take that back and if you find out [35:49] later like oh there's a lot of other [35:51] circumstances or that person that that [35:54] you thought was a woof is actually [35:56] somebody and you hear their story and [35:58] they're like they were raped when they [35:59] were little they grew up on the street [36:02] there I I I I went to juvenile hall the [36:05] other day I I was visiting [36:07] and uh and uh for the first time in a [36:10] long time he used to go to juvenile hall [36:11] in Weirville and uh and there was 22 [36:14] guys uh young you know they're all [36:16] juveniles right so below 18 so in the [36:18] room and and uh this they were the first [36:21] time I was in there so we're getting to [36:22] know each other and and um yeah they [36:26] were juvenile delinquents the behavior [36:28] wasn't wonderful in there it wasn't the [36:29] easiest place I've ever spoke before but [36:30] I' I've done it before and there was one [36:33] guy in there that was obviously the ring [36:35] leader [36:36] and he interrupted several times and uh [36:39] the Lord gave me a real love for him [36:41] just in that hour and a half we were in [36:43] there and I was just connected with him [36:45] and I was thinking yeah you and I [36:47] probably have a lot in common bro cuz I [36:49] grew up super broken. So afterwards he [36:53] asked if I could meet with him would you [36:55] meet with me and I looked at the guard [36:57] and the guard's like if you want to. So [36:59] went in the room and he looked at me and [37:02] he started sobbing and he said, "My [37:05] mother chose heroin when I was three [37:10] instead of me." [37:12] And he began to talk about how his [37:15] mother and father became addicts when he [37:18] was still a toddler and he was never [37:21] loved because I spoke on the love of [37:23] God. [37:25] And all of a sudden, within [37:29] five minutes of him speaking, I've never [37:31] met him before. Well, I was in the room [37:34] with him for an hour and a half. I never [37:36] talked to him before. All of a sudden, [37:37] I'm like, "This man's story makes me [37:41] understand why he's in this prison. [37:45] This man is a hurting, broken man." Who [37:50] can I say? Yes, he made bad choices, but [37:53] some bad choices were made for this boy. [37:56] And I'm not sure what kind of a start he [37:58] had. And I'm not sure how many people in [38:00] this room with that start wouldn't end [38:02] up in there. [38:03] >> And I understood him. And him and I, we [38:06] spent 15 minutes together. And by the [38:07] time he left, we had a bond. We [38:09] understand each other. And I'm like, [38:11] that kid's not a wolf. Yes, he's a [38:13] criminal. Let's get probably [38:16] incarceration. best thing that ever [38:17] happened to him right now because he [38:19] can't control himself from the inside [38:20] out. So, he has to be controlled from [38:22] the outside in while he gets well. So, [38:24] it's a great place for him, right? For [38:26] for right now. We don't want to be in [38:27] there forever. But but my point is is [38:29] that when you get to know people and you [38:31] walk with people, you have another [38:34] perspective [38:35] >> and you're like, "Yeah, that person's [38:37] pretty destructive, but there are lots [38:39] of other dynamics going on." [38:42] >> Are you with me? [38:44] And then there's then there's people who [38:46] are in on the internet and they are the [38:49] victims of some Christian maybe some [38:53] Christian some Christian leader. It's [38:54] all above, right? It's it's all over the [38:56] place actually. And uh and maybe you [39:00] know the leader and maybe you know the [39:02] person and they're like this leader did [39:04] this to me and they did this to me and [39:06] they did this to me and you're like okay [39:07] that okay first of all I know that guy. [39:10] Wow, that's shocking that he behaved [39:12] like that. Shocking. [39:15] I didn't know that. And it's uh it's sad [39:21] how destructive you can be and how [39:23] hypocritical you can live [39:26] and how you can build trust people [39:28] people get to trust you because you are [39:30] a spiritual leader. You walk in a [39:32] powerful gift and yet you yourself are [39:34] broken. [39:36] And you yourself, you yourself are not a [39:39] noble woman or a noble man. And you are [39:42] leading people astray. Not necessarily [39:46] because you're a wolf, but because [39:47] you're broken [39:49] >> and people expect you to be well because [39:50] of your artic how articulate you are [39:53] articulate you are in the podium or how [39:56] gifted you are in your amazing gift of [39:58] healing or prophecy or whatever. And yet [40:01] there's a big old broken piece in you [40:03] that nobody knew about till people were [40:06] got closer to you. [40:09] But then also sometimes you know the [40:10] other side of the story because you know [40:12] the person that's making the complaint [40:14] and you're like, "Oh yeah. [40:17] I I know that this is a two there's two [40:19] stories here." [40:21] And of course, if one person shares [40:24] their story, [40:26] then the other side of the story is not [40:28] shared and it feels like there's only [40:30] one side of the story. [40:33] I remember I worked for a man for seven [40:35] years and I loved the man very much. I [40:38] was a brand new Christian. I was 18 [40:40] years old when I went to work for him. I [40:41] I was literally saved a month. And uh he [40:46] really loved me. He came out of prison. [40:48] He was not a Christian. Now Kathy and I [40:50] led him to the Lord like year six or [40:52] something of our employment and um he he [40:56] was good to me. He loved me. He was a [40:58] chronic liar [41:01] and um he would lie to our customers. [41:03] Now this is funny. You know this they're [41:05] like there's no honor among thieves, but [41:07] he wasn't he wasn't dishonest about hey [41:09] we're going to sell you something you [41:11] don't need. It wasn't that. He'd be like [41:13] uh he'd forget to order the part and the [41:15] card sit there all day. Then you tell [41:16] the customer, "Oh, uh, the wrong part [41:19] came [41:20] when when in fact he never ordered the [41:22] part or um, yeah, we're almost done with [41:25] your car and we hadn't even start on it [41:26] yet." And this went on for years. And [41:29] so, you know, he I ran the shop, so he [41:32] would tell something and then he would [41:34] be gone and then the customer come in [41:35] and go, "Oh, I heard my uh part uh wrong [41:38] part came in." I'm like, "I know it's a [41:40] lie." And I'm like, "I am lying to cover [41:44] his lie. [41:46] And so that went on for five years. [41:49] And why did I not do something about it? [41:51] Even though I was a Christian, why did I [41:53] lie along with him to cover him? Because [41:55] I was broken, too. [41:58] And then in the fifth year, [42:02] I I I the Lord said to me, "It's time [42:04] for you to behave like a noble man and [42:07] stop behaving like the man you work for. [42:10] You can no longer blame him for your [42:12] behavior. It's time for you to grow up. [42:15] So I took him aside one day [42:19] and I said to him, "Hey, I want you to [42:22] know I can't lie for you anymore." And [42:24] he immediately goes, "Lie for me? You [42:25] don't lie for me?" I'm like, "Live for [42:27] five years? [42:29] I lie almost every day for you. [42:32] Sometimes multiple times when you tell a [42:34] customer something and then the customer [42:36] comes and asks me or makes a comment and [42:39] I go, "Yeah, that's the way it [42:40] happened." When I'm sitting there going, [42:42] "That is not the way it happened. [42:44] So he said, 'Well, I would never require [42:46] your lie from me. I said, 'Well, you [42:47] have for 5 years. So, I just want you to [42:50] know we're done with that. We're not [42:52] doing that anymore. Of course, we're [42:54] not. Well, the very next day, [42:57] literally the very next day, a customer [43:01] calls at like 4:00 in the afternoon and [43:03] says, "How close are we to my car being [43:05] done?" And I turn to him and I say, [43:08] "Hey, how close are we to his car being [43:09] done?" now we haven't started on it and [43:12] it's like a six-hour job. He goes, "Oh, [43:14] tell him you got about an hour left." We [43:15] hadn't pulled it in yet. And I said, [43:18] "Uh, Joe says you got about an hour [43:20] left." He goes, "Do I have about an hour [43:22] left?" I said, "No, sir." [43:25] He said, "What?" And my boss is standing [43:27] right there. He said, "You just said [43:30] that you have about an hour left." I [43:31] said, "No." I said, "Joe said you have [43:33] about an hour left." He said, "Do I have [43:36] about an hour left?" I said, "No, sir. [43:37] We haven't pulled it in yet. [43:39] Are you saying that your boss lied to [43:41] me? Yes, sir. That's exactly what I'm [43:42] saying. [43:44] Would you like to talk to him? I sure [43:46] would. Here you go. [43:51] That day. He fired me. [43:54] And I was very happy that he fired me. I [43:56] got a job. I got I got six jobs the next [43:59] day [44:00] >> that paid much more. [44:02] And he called me every day for a month, [44:05] three or four times. Please come back to [44:07] work. I will never require you to lie [44:10] again. And a month and a half later, I [44:12] think two months later, I came back to [44:14] work. And a month later, we led him to [44:16] the Lord. [44:24] But see, part of the problem was he was [44:26] broken, but I was broken, too. [44:29] >> And I would go home and complain to [44:31] Kathy, but I wouldn't do anything about [44:33] it because I was broken, too. And what [44:36] I'm getting at is there was two sides to [44:38] the story. And I was of course polarized [44:42] by my side of the story, but the fact [44:45] that I wouldn't say I'm not saying that [44:47] for five years, several times a week, [44:51] probably something else wrong. Are you [44:53] with me? And I I'm just pointing out [44:56] that [44:57] there's so much stuff that happens on [45:00] the internet. It's like Bethl doesn't [45:01] protect people. BETHL DID THIS THING TO [45:03] TELL ANYBODY. It's like, [45:07] yeah, there's more to that story. Now, [45:09] here's the other challenge. [45:11] One of the things that happens in [45:12] pastoral care and probably you when you [45:16] counsel your friends is that you they [45:19] tell you things they've never told [45:21] anyone else [45:23] because they trust [45:25] that you're going to be that you're [45:27] going to be that you're going to keep [45:28] confidentiality and you're not going to [45:29] tell anyone. [45:31] and and you win people and people need [45:34] to confess their sins, right? Because if [45:36] you confess your sins, first John, then [45:38] he's faithful to forgive your sin to to [45:41] forgive your sins and cleanse you from [45:43] all righteousness, but it comes with [45:44] confess, right? First, so you you one of [45:47] the things that happens in counseling [45:49] and pastoral care and just friendship is [45:52] that after a while, people get to trust [45:55] you and they tell you things that [45:57] they're ashamed of. and you pray for [46:00] them and you know things about them and [46:03] you would never take that information [46:05] and give it to anyone else. [46:08] So when people are telling somebody's [46:11] story that they were this or this [46:12] happened to them or or there was you [46:15] know all these things that happened and [46:17] you like know the rest of that story and [46:20] the only way you could defend yourself [46:22] is to tell the rest of that story. [46:27] Your [46:29] life as a minister is over when you [46:33] break confidence to defend yourself. [46:40] >> Your life is over [46:43] when that person sees their story that [46:47] they told you in confidence on the [46:50] internet. [46:51] >> So you can say, "Well, let me tell you [46:53] about Henry. Let me tell you about [46:56] Josephine. [46:58] Yeah, she said this. That's true. But [47:00] let me tell you this backstory here [47:03] because Proverbs says when the first [47:04] person tells a story seems to be right [47:06] till the second person tells the story. [47:08] The problem is the second story can [47:11] seldom be told when you're a pastor [47:15] because you know things you better never [47:17] share with anyone to defend yourself. [47:20] And so you must stay silent in the midst [47:26] of accusation [47:28] because you are a shepherd of a flock, [47:30] not an attorney. [47:36] >> And you have to navigate silence with [47:38] grace or you get bitter. And I want to [47:40] tell you why I know you get bitter. [47:42] Because I've been bitter before [47:45] and I like to debate. My wife can tell [47:47] you. And I am really good at it. [47:50] I am really [clears throat] good at [47:52] debating. I can win most debates. [47:55] But this isn't about debating. This is [47:57] about shephering of movement with grace [48:00] and honor. [48:04] So whole [48:06] documentaries get made about Bill and I [48:09] and our movement and hours of YouTube [48:13] videos where someone makes thousands of [48:15] dollars telling [48:18] a story [48:21] and people write me and like you did [48:24] this and you should have and I'm like [48:26] well yeah that's [48:29] you know if I believed that story I [48:31] would have quit the ministry a long time [48:32] ago [48:34] and you didn't you didn't confront [48:38] evil. [48:41] Nobody who knows me would ever accuse me [48:43] of that. [48:45] [snorts] [48:46] I have never been accused of being [48:49] afraid to confront anyone. [48:52] >> Amen. [48:53] >> That's just stupid. [48:58] The whole front row is laughing because [49:00] my challenge is Mark's laughing. He's [49:02] been with me 27 years. My problem is I [49:04] should shut up. [49:07] My wife is forever. Don't not now. Don't [49:09] say any Don't say everything that comes [49:11] up on the screen. [49:14] I I I I [49:17] you know, I don't mean this in a like a [49:19] holy way. Like I have an unhealthy no [49:22] fear of people. [49:24] Unhealthy. I could say anything to [49:26] anyone. I have to manage the fact that I [49:29] don't actually care what you think. [49:34] And I grew up in a house where my first [49:38] stepfather for eight years beat my [49:40] mother in the bedroom where my mother [49:43] screamed for help. And as a 5-year-old [49:46] boy sitting at the door of her room, [49:48] well, the door was locked, begging for [49:50] him to stop beating my mother. [49:54] You have no idea what that does to [49:56] somebody. I have a justice button that's [49:58] probably off the charts. When somebody [50:00] abuses somebody, I have to tone myself [50:03] down and go, [50:05] "Grace, [50:06] do not kill this person." [50:12] Like, protector is not my weakness. [50:16] So, if you hear stories about [50:20] something that happened that I actually [50:21] know about and it's like, "You didn't [50:23] confront them." I'm like, "You don't [50:25] know about it for reasons that I can't [50:27] tell you." [crying] But let me tell you, [50:30] that did not happen. [50:32] But not everybody who gets confronted [50:34] repents. [50:42] You know, I wrote [snorts] this. This [50:43] might be better to read than try to talk [50:46] my tears. In America, we are innocent [50:48] until proven guilty. When [snorts] [50:51] somebody allegedly commits a crime, they [50:53] are guaranteed a fair trial. The justice [50:55] process is designed to make sure the [50:57] victim and the victimizer have an [50:59] opportunity to share their story. [51:01] Furthermore, they are trained. There are [51:03] trained detectives who investigate all [51:05] the facts of the case and present them [51:07] to the jury. There's an attorney [51:10] assigned to both the victim and the [51:11] alleged uh predator or perpetrator. The [51:14] case is laid out before a carefully [51:18] selected nonpartisan jury agreed upon by [51:22] the plaintiff and the defendant's legal [51:25] team. The judge who conducts the case [51:28] must be completely impartial, ensuring [51:31] that the defendant and the plaintiff get [51:33] a fair, unbiased trial. [51:38] People are innocent till proven guilty [51:42] in America. [51:44] But not on social media. [51:47] Social media has created a whole [51:49] different dynamic [51:51] in which you are guilty till you prove [51:54] yourself innocent and then you are [51:57] invited on to talk shows [52:00] and podcasts [52:02] to tell your case to a jury that has [52:05] already determined you're guilty. [52:08] Yeah. [52:09] >> And if you're someone like me, I am [52:12] blackmailed all the time. And if you [52:13] don't tell your story, we're going to [52:15] tell everybody that you did this thing. [52:18] I'm like, only way I can tell my story [52:21] is tell their story. And I can't tell [52:23] you their story because that's what [52:25] shepherds do. [52:29] >> Are you with me? [52:30] >> Yeah. [52:31] >> And so we're in this really strange [52:33] thing. And then there's the challenge [52:35] like here's here's church discipline, [52:36] right? Like if you if you um molest a [52:40] child, we are mandatory reporters. [52:42] >> And by the way, we've reported many many [52:44] many many many over the 27 years I've [52:46] been here. Some of some people who [52:48] consider my friends, unfortunately. And [52:51] you have to call CPS and you have to [52:53] call the police and you need to do it [52:56] swiftly. And by the way, you should do [52:57] it swiftly because kids should not be in [52:59] danger by their parents, their friends, [53:01] their cousins, whoever. And we've done [53:04] that many, many times. So what are [53:05] mandatory reports? And and and and [53:07] actually it's good because you turn the [53:10] uh situation over uh child protection [53:12] services. Am I boring you guys? And over [53:14] to police. And these guys, this is what [53:16] they do for a living. Like they have [53:18] investigators. They they understand [53:20] child molestations and rape. It's all [53:22] they deal with all the time. They they [53:24] they're they're they understand. They're [53:26] experts in that area. And and we have [53:28] really good relationship with them in [53:29] town. So they work with us, too. And [53:31] they're not our enemies. They're not [53:32] like, "Oh, we're going to turn them over [53:33] to the system." We're like, "No, no." [53:35] Many of them are believers. We love [53:37] them. They love us. And uh and it's [53:40] good. And so and then the the there's a [53:42] process that the the victim and the [53:44] victimizer have to go through. It's a [53:46] legal process. And the and the and and [53:49] the the people who are working with them [53:51] have authority like to even put you in [53:54] prison. [53:56] So it's not like, hey, if you don't [53:59] repent, you can't come to our church. [54:00] It's like you go to jail. [54:03] you you might go to jail anyway. And so [54:06] they're they're they're giving tools for [54:09] people have to go through a process to [54:12] make sure that they don't do it again or [54:15] whatever or the this child hang out in [54:17] the home or whatever [54:20] when something happens in church that's [54:22] wrong but it's not illegal. [54:27] People have this idea that if you're [54:30] Bill Johnson or Chris Valatin and you [54:32] confront somebody, they're like, "Oh, [54:34] I'm sorry. I'm never going to do that [54:35] again." And what what [54:39] if you confront someone and they say, "I [54:41] didn't do that. [54:44] I don't have investigators. [54:48] No, I don't have a a court that, [54:51] you know, what do they say? Everyone no [54:53] one in prisons everyone in prisons [54:55] innocent." I don't have a court system [54:57] that figures out that the person that [54:59] says they're innocent isn't innocent. I [55:01] have no process. I have me talking to [55:04] them and they go, "I didn't do it." [55:10] Well, Joanne says you did. Well, I [55:12] didn't. [55:15] Okay. Now, what do I do? [55:19] What do I do? Well, five people said, [55:21] "You did it." [55:23] They said, "I did it. [55:27] like this isn't there's no I don't I [55:30] don't know I think there's like this [55:31] idea that like leaders spiritual leaders [55:34] have some sort of authority that they [55:36] can press people into and you go you [55:38] can't go to our church if you do that [55:40] great there's 3,000 other churches I can [55:43] go to [55:45] are you following me and and there and [55:47] there's just like this idea [55:50] that [55:52] when you confront somebody, [55:55] they're going to repent. And then if [55:57] they don't, you should tell everybody. [56:02] And by the way, you can't just tell the [56:03] church because you're going to tell the [56:05] whole world that the church has this [56:08] major flaw. The people you're trying to [56:11] lead to Christ, you're going to say, [56:13] "Don't trust churches because they are [56:16] made up of really broken people." And [56:18] you get to tell the whole world [56:21] that churches are not safe when you [56:24] interact and and defend yourself on [56:27] social media because you're not just [56:29] talking to the audience you want to talk [56:31] to. You're talking to every unbeliever [56:35] who wants to chime in on why they don't [56:37] go to church because those people are [56:40] insane. [56:42] And you know, Paul spoke to it in 1 [56:45] Corinthians 6 and he talked about [56:46] Christians suing Christians and going to [56:49] law courts. But but but he but he said [56:52] this. He said, "You're going to go to [56:55] court in front of a judge who doesn't [56:58] know God?" [57:00] And then he goes, "Why not rather be [57:01] wrong?" [57:04] And and and of course, this doesn't mean [57:06] like, "Well, I got molested. I shouldn't [57:07] tell anyone." No, I'm not talking about [57:08] I I got raped. This person's beating me. [57:10] I'm not talking about that. I'm just [57:11] talking about the fact that when you [57:13] those things, sure, you should call the [57:15] police. Absolutely. [57:17] If I if I grew up today, my stepfather [57:21] would be in prison. I would have made [57:24] the first 911 call. We didn't have 911 [57:26] in those days. [57:28] I I I'm all for that. I'm pointing out [57:30] that in the internet, Christians war [57:33] against one another in front of the [57:35] world. They were trying to win [57:40] >> and then they put it on my social page [57:42] that has, you know, I got 700,000 people [57:44] on my social pages all together and then [57:46] they put it on there and like if I [57:48] respond on my social page, they got 30 [57:51] people on theirs. Soon as I respond on [57:53] mine, I just included 700,000 people who [57:56] didn't know that situation. And now I [57:58] get to tell everybody [58:01] >> and I get to tell every person who [58:04] doesn't know the Lord, [58:07] >> who chimes in, these Christians are [58:10] fighting one another over this person [58:12] being abused. And I'm like, these are [58:13] things that should be family problems [58:15] that we work out together. And the [58:17] police need to get involved. Let's do [58:18] that because those are tools we have. [58:24] And people make huge amounts of money in [58:28] media. You tell a story and their media [58:32] sites become boxing rings where they [58:35] invite you to fight this guy and their [58:37] pay-per-view. [58:39] And it's all in the name of helping the [58:41] church get rid of the woos. [58:46] That's a very difficult and it's very [58:49] complex and sometimes it's even right. [58:54] You know what's interesting to me is um [58:56] I I'll be done in a few minutes if [58:58] you're getting bored. [snorts] Um I'll [59:00] never talk like this in an open forum. [59:04] Um the other thing is [59:07] when someone fails, was their ministry [59:10] bad? [59:12] I was thinking about Jesus chose 12 guys [59:14] and one of them was Judas. [59:17] and he was a thief and Jesus made him [59:20] the treasure. [59:23] >> Now, if I know that Richard is a thief, [59:26] which he is, and he's a godly man, I'm [59:28] not going to put him over the finances [59:30] of Bethl Church, even if he's a reformed [59:33] thief. [59:36] I'm not going to put him in his [59:37] weakness. If I have a person who was [59:39] once an alcoholic, I'm not going to have [59:41] them have bar ministry. Not unless I [59:44] know for a fact that they've really [59:45] proven that area in their life. But [59:48] Jesus makes the guy who's a a thief, he [59:53] puts them over the money box. I mean, [59:55] why not Matthew? [59:58] >> He's a tax collector. He probably knows [59:59] something about money. [60:01] But here's the crazy thing. Jesus sends [60:05] them out by twos. So, we don't know who, [60:08] you know, when Peter and John pretty [60:09] popular. We know that James and John [60:11] pretty popular. But I don't know who [60:13] went with Judas, [60:15] but you can't hide when you're in a [60:16] group of two [60:18] and Jesus sends you out like, "Keal the [60:20] sick, raise the dead, cast out demons. [60:22] I'll meet you over here." Can you [60:23] imagine if Judas got there and every [60:25] time they get in a a ministry situation, [60:27] he has to go for a smoke. [60:30] I mean, the guy that's with him is going [60:31] to go when Jesus goes, "One of you [60:32] betrayed me." He's go, "It's got to be [60:34] Judas." [60:36] And I'm pointing out that Jesus didn't [60:38] have any problem with putting someone [60:40] who was really broken on the ministry to [60:42] him. And he didn't go, "Well, Judas's [60:44] ministry is not good." I wonder if when [60:47] Judas finally betrayed Jesus, if people [60:49] like, "Hey, he gave me a prophetic word. [60:51] It must not be right. [60:56] Would Jesus send Judas out if he knew [60:58] he's giving fake words?" [61:01] And I'm pointing out that Romans 11 says [61:03] the gifts and callings of God are [61:05] irrevocable. When God gives you a gift, [61:08] he doesn't take it back. [61:10] >> So people who are really broken [61:12] sometimes do great ministry. And some of [61:14] these people that are on the internet, [61:16] the ones the few that I know that people [61:19] talk about, they have a great ministry. [61:21] Some of them are like they use social [61:22] media to get words of knowledge. I'm [61:25] like, yeah. And I don't know why they [61:26] did that because the ones that I know, I [61:28] brought them in rooms many times when [61:30] there was there were no way they could [61:32] have known who was in that room. And [61:33] they called out people's names, called [61:36] out people's phone numbers. [61:38] When I was in in on the couch for 6 [61:41] months, one of those leaders who is [61:43] famously infamous right now, [61:47] it it called me all the time, gave me [61:50] great words, knew things about me that [61:52] no one could know. So, I'm like, great [61:54] ministry doesn't mean you have that you [61:57] have great character. [62:00] >> And bare character doesn't mean you [62:01] don't have great ministry. Gosh, I hate [62:03] to say that. I wish it did. [62:06] Are you Are you with me? And then we [62:08] have people like Solomon. You know, [62:11] Solomon started well like he God said in [62:14] a dream, "You can have anything you [62:16] want." And he said, "Man, God, you've [62:19] given me these people." [62:21] And then he here's what he said. I feel [62:23] like a little child. Like I don't know [62:24] what to do. I don't know how to go in [62:25] and come out. [62:28] I need wisdom. [62:30] And God said, "Wow, [62:33] not only am I going to give you wisdom, [62:35] but because you didn't ask for long [62:37] life, you didn't ask for the head of [62:39] your enemies. You didn't ask for wealth. [62:41] I'm going to give you long life, wealth, [62:43] and you're going to be the wealthiest [62:44] king who ever lived. And I'm going to [62:46] give you wisdom." And it says this, "And [62:49] Solomon was loved by God." And it says [62:52] that Solomon loved God and he wrote [62:55] Proverbs. [62:58] But it goes on to say, and I'm not going [63:00] to read it because it's too long and [63:01] I've already gone long. It goes on to [63:04] say in First Kings [63:07] 11 that Solomon loved foreign wives and [63:12] they stole his heart. It goes on to say [63:15] that he built temples to their gods and [63:19] he sacrificed children on those temples. [63:24] Solomon made [63:27] Solomon made [63:32] Hugh Hefner [63:34] Playboy Mansion [63:38] look like kindergarten. [63:42] He created a cult [63:45] from seven nations of women, built [63:47] temples to all of them, and sacrificed [63:50] children on the sex cult in a sex cult. [63:55] At the end of his life, he built a harum [63:59] with thousands of women in it, all for [64:02] sex. [64:04] And we still read his books. [64:08] No one says, "Well, Solomon was terrible [64:11] person at the end of his life." I'm not [64:13] reading Proverbs. [64:17] We still read his books. [64:20] Let me say this. We still read [64:21] Ecclesiastes. And he wrote Ecclesiastes [64:23] when he didn't have relationship with [64:24] God. But he still had a gift of wisdom [64:26] on his life. [64:29] I I pointed out that people can do [64:32] really good ministry. Jesus encountered [64:34] a guy. Remember this? He said, "Didn't I [64:36] cast out demons? Didn't I prophesy? [64:38] Didn't I didn't did didn't I do [64:40] miracles?" And he said, "Get away from [64:42] me. I never knew you." He didn't go, [64:44] "No, you didn't." He just said, "I never [64:47] knew you." And I'm pointing out that [64:50] people that are being accused, not all [64:52] them, I don't know all of them, but the, [64:53] you know, the two two or three I know [64:55] that are kind of always in this thing, [64:58] like they have really good ministry. [65:02] Some of them we had here many times. And [65:04] people like, "He gave me a word and now [65:05] I know it was fake." I'm like, "How do [65:07] you know that's fake?" Judas was a fake [65:08] the whole time. And he did pretty good [65:10] ministry. [65:13] Judas never even got in trouble. It was [65:15] Peter and John were like, "We'll call [65:17] down fire." It wasn't Judas. [65:20] And Thomas is like, "I doubt it." [65:25] And Judas is like, "We can make money on [65:26] on this situation." [65:30] So anyway, I need to be finished. [65:33] Galatians 6:1 says, "Brothers and [65:35] sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, [65:38] you who are spiritual, restore him or [65:41] them in a spirit of gentleness, each one [65:44] looking to yourself, so that you too may [65:47] not fall into temptation." I want to [65:50] read you one more. Revelation 2:20. I [65:53] have this against you that you tolerate [65:55] the woman Jezebel who calls herself a [65:57] prophetus and she teaches and leads my [65:59] bond servants astray. So they commit [66:01] acts of immorality and eat sacrifi [66:04] things sacrificed idols. Listen to this [66:06] the second part. I gave her time to [66:08] repent [66:10] and she does not want to repent of her [66:13] immorality. I I don't know if you notice [66:15] this. It's like this is Jezebel famous [66:19] for taking God's bondervants and drawing [66:22] them into [66:24] immoral sex. [66:27] And what's Jesus's response? I gave her [66:30] some time to repent. [66:32] And worse yet, in the church, here's [66:34] what I have against her. You not that [66:36] you did it, that you tolerated it. And [66:39] by the way, you and I both gave her time [66:42] to repent. You gave her way too much [66:44] time to repent. [66:46] You let her stay too long. I was going [66:48] to leave her in for a while. You let her [66:49] in too long. Are you with me? But my [66:52] point is God's response to people who [66:55] are even doing evil is I want to make [66:58] sure that I make sure that I make sure [67:01] that they don't want to repent. [67:04] And I would say this that Bethl's [67:09] mistakes [67:12] shortcomings [67:16] is that we're always a little late. [67:20] Like why didn't you do it then? [67:25] Because we're trying hard [67:28] to see people redeemed. [67:32] Why didn't you do it when you heard the [67:33] first thing? [67:35] I don't know. We're trying really hard [67:37] to make sure that we're not the [67:40] church of the Pharisees who have [67:42] forgotten where we've come from. [67:44] >> Wow. [67:46] >> You know, when the woman was caught in [67:47] adultery and the Pharisees and came to [67:51] Jesus and said, "Hey, the law says we [67:52] should stone her. What do you say?" [67:55] I like his ultimate response. He said, [67:57] "Yeah, it's probably a good idea. He [68:00] who's he who's never sinned. Get us [68:04] started. Isn't it interesting he didn't [68:07] say he who's never committed adultery. [68:13] See, we have relative righteousness. [68:17] >> See, when I see somebody that sinned in [68:19] the likeness of the adulteress, I go, [68:22] "Well, I can make a judgment about her. [68:25] I could talk about her on my YouTube [68:27] channel because I have never done that. [68:30] >> And Jesus said, "Great. If you've never [68:33] sinned, get us started." [68:36] And I'd like to point out that we end up [68:38] with relative righteousness because I [68:40] think as long as I'm better than you, [68:42] then I have a place to say something [68:44] about it. [68:46] And I like to point out that Galatians, [68:47] Paul said, "Make sure you who are [68:50] spiritual [68:51] that you restore people with a spirit of [68:53] gentleness. look into yourselves [68:56] >> to make sure you don't fall into the [68:57] same temptation. When we get the idea [69:00] that someone we see on the internet, [69:01] maybe who is wellknown or famous or not, [69:04] did something really terrible and we [69:05] think, I would have never done that. You [69:08] don't know cuz you haven't been there. [69:11] Prayerfully, you wouldn't. [69:14] But we have [69:17] become in the last 20 years, [69:23] a global community [69:28] that spends a lot of time telling people [69:30] where they're wrong. [69:32] You can post Jesus is amazing. I love [69:36] Jesus. Jesus loves you. And somebody [69:42] will write a negative comment. I did an [69:45] experiment. I wrote I I was telling my [69:47] friend, watch this. And I wrote, "Jesus [69:50] loves you." And somebody wrote, "Well, [69:52] the Bible says, [69:55] [snorts] "Jacob I loved and Esau I [69:57] hated." [69:59] I like you can't win. Someone's got to [70:02] tell you like there is one verse in the [70:04] Bible where God said he hated somebody [70:06] and you just missed that one. [70:10] And I'm just pointing out we've become a [70:13] we we we live in a culture of faultf [70:16] finding and judgment and we we hear half [70:20] the story and we and we have a lynch mob [70:24] >> and we create there is a lynch mob [70:28] society on social media that hears the [70:33] story and for some reason they think if [70:36] I really love God I will rise up and [70:38] read justice for this person and you [70:41] don't even know the person. [70:46] Jonah Bark [70:49] was burned at the stake for being a [70:52] heretic by the Catholic Church [70:56] and 40 years later honored as a saint. [71:00] Galileo, the scientist, was put on house [71:03] arrest because he believed that the [71:07] earth actually circled around the sun, [71:12] not the sun, around the earth. He was [71:15] branded a heretic [71:18] and spent the rest of his life on house [71:19] arrest by the Catholic Church. [71:22] The church is famous [71:26] for making judgments about people. [71:29] and I'm not participating in that [71:32] no matter how much you taught me. [71:36] I need mercy [71:39] and I [71:42] want to always [71:44] be overly merciful [71:47] >> instead of overly judgmental. [71:49] And behind the scenes, [71:52] I'm very confronted. [71:55] And if there's a story about Bethl where [71:58] a leader didn't get confronted, [72:00] confronted, seriously confronted [72:03] numerous times, you just don't know the [72:06] rest of the story. But just because [72:08] someone's confronted doesn't mean [72:10] they'll change. [72:13] And you have to decide, are you going to [72:15] shame their whole family [72:18] when you don't know them like you did in [72:20] Weaverville? [72:22] Are you sure that you want to make a [72:24] permanent record of this person's [72:27] failure? Are you sure? [72:32] And having to answer that question is [72:34] not easy. [72:37] Not easy. [72:39] Especially when your family is shamed [72:42] every day for things [72:46] that we did not do or that were blown [72:48] out of proportion [72:50] or were halftruths. [72:52] I know what it's like to have a [72:54] permanent record of documentaries [72:57] against me for 30 second clips [73:00] out of a 40-minute talk [73:03] taken out of context. [snorts] things [73:05] people said, jokes you told. [73:10] I don't want to create that for people [73:14] who have failed. [73:16] So they have a permanent record unless I [73:18] am positive [73:20] that they are so destructive that it [73:23] warrants telling the whole world [73:25] including people who don't know God. [73:29] this person should be marked forever [73:34] for being a cheater, a liar. [73:38] That is a big decision [73:41] that most of us don't have to make, but [73:44] we have to make them. [73:46] And I do think we have aired at times by [73:51] waiting too long. [73:54] But it is with the right heart. [73:56] Would you stand please? [74:00] >> [applause] [74:11] [applause] [74:14] >> Gosh, [74:16] my wife's probably like, "Oh my gosh, [74:18] she's sitting in the front row." [74:20] Remember, there's no delay. [74:24] Uh um I just want to pray uh I want to [74:27] pray for us actually. I I think I need [74:30] it too. And I want to pray for [74:34] um the people who have uh [74:38] uh made us their enemies. [74:40] Um we're supposed to love our enemies. [74:42] We're supposed to be kind to people who [74:44] are unkind to us. And I think mostly I [74:46] think even most of those people that are [74:49] on social media, YouTube, calling us [74:51] out, my guess is that they have a really [74:54] good heart. I guess they're trying to do [74:56] the right thing. [74:58] And um so Lord, we just pray right now. [75:01] Lord, we pray for the condition of the [75:03] hearts of people who have actually hurt [75:05] the body. Especially for those who have [75:09] deceived the body, those who have been [75:10] judices and people that have lied and [75:13] cheated and done immoral things [75:17] uh to their teams. And God, we pray that [75:20] you would grant them repentance. [75:23] >> We pray that you would change their [75:24] heart. God, we thank you that you are [75:27] the you're the God who's famous for [75:29] changing people's hearts. You changed my [75:32] heart, God. You changed my boss's heart [75:35] many years ago from a liar to a saint. [75:40] Lord, you're the master of hearts. [75:43] You're the lover of people. Lord, you [75:46] you are the slowest to act against [75:50] people. God, you are so you are so slow [75:55] to anger and so quick to mercy. [76:00] And Lord, I pray for mercy for those who [76:02] have sinned against the body, [76:06] especially those who've done it [76:07] purposely. I pray for the victims. God, [76:10] please God, restore the victims. So many [76:13] broken people, [76:16] even who are perpetrated and perpetuated [76:20] by broken leaders. God, may you restore [76:23] every single one of them, their [76:25] marriages, their hearts, their souls. [76:27] Lord, God, I pray that you would give us [76:31] wisdom, not just Bethl, but Lord, the [76:34] leaders of the 21st century church. May [76:36] you teach us, God, how to actually [76:38] shepherd all these people and and and [76:40] how to and how to create some [76:43] level of protection and and and how to [76:47] how to behave in in a in in a global [76:50] church where people know us, but we [76:53] don't know them. Lord, help us, God, to [76:58] help us, God. Give us supernatural [77:00] wisdom for the years ahead. And as we [77:03] come into this season of AI, give us [77:06] even more wisdom, God, [77:09] >> as people [77:11] come into the false lead of machines. [77:15] God, may we be people who rise above [77:17] that. [77:19] And Lord, I pray that you would forgive [77:21] me for wherever I've made wrong [77:24] decisions and [77:26] wherever I've done it wrong or said it [77:27] wrong or spoken out of frustration or [77:30] anger. Lord, I pray you'd forgive me and [77:32] I pray that you restore anyone who I [77:35] hurt with my my words or my attitude. [77:38] And I pray a blessing on this flock, [77:40] God. May you be you you poured out your [77:43] spirit here so gracefully, God. I'm not [77:45] certainly not sure that I deserve it, [77:48] but God, I thank you that you've always [77:50] dealt with me as from a child from [77:52] childhood with great grace and mercy. [77:55] And I pray that you'd extend that to [77:57] everyone in our movement and those that [77:59] don't yet know you, God, in Jesus name. [78:02] Amen. Thank you so much for listening. [78:03] God bless you. [applause] --- Here’s a structured pass through the sermon, focusing on logical fallacies (by type) and DARVO patterns. I’ll quote briefly, then label and explain. --- ## 1. Framing and Generalizations about the Internet & Social Media > “Social media has created a whole different dynamic in which you are guilty till you prove yourself innocent…” - **Hasty Generalization / Overgeneralization** Treats “social media” as if it *normally* or *always* functions as guilty‑until‑proven‑innocent, ignoring: - platforms where careful investigation is done - instances where alleged victims are disbelieved or silenced - **Composition / Ecological Fallacy** From some toxic online environments, he infers *social media as a whole* works this way. > “We have a lynch mob society on social media…” - **Loaded Language / Emotional Appeal (Pathos)** “Lynch mob” is rhetorically explosive. It equates public criticism or advocacy with extrajudicial mob killings, which: - inflates the moral gravity of online critique - implicitly casts critics as violent, irrational mobs. - **Slippery Slope (implied)** Online criticism → “lynch mob” → destruction of reputations → destruction of churches. Mechanisms in between are largely asserted, not demonstrated. --- ## 2. Victim/Persecutor Framing & Motives of Critics > “People make huge amounts of money in media… their media sites become boxing rings… pay‑per‑view.” - **Ad Hominem (circumstantial / motive attack)** Suggests critics’ accounts are driven by profit and spectacle, which: - attacks motivation rather than addressing factual claims - invites the audience to distrust them *because* they benefit. - **Poisoning the Well** Pre‑emptively undermines any future critical reporting by associating it with profiteering and exploitation. > “I think even most of those people… calling us out, my guess is that they have a really good heart. I guess they’re trying to do the right thing.” - **Concession‑with‑Undercut / False Benevolence** On the surface, he credits their motives, but in context: - earlier comments about profit, boxing rings, and lynch mobs frame them as harmful or corrupt - so this “charitable” statement softens tone without really revising the underlying negative characterization. --- ## 3. “Two Sides of the Story” and Confidentiality > “The problem is the second story can seldom be told when you’re a pastor… you must stay silent in the midst of accusation because you are a shepherd… not an attorney.” - **False Dilemma** Presents two options: 1. Break confidence to defend yourself (ministry over), or 2. Say nothing at all. Ignores options like: - independent third‑party investigations - public process explanations without disclosing victim‑identifying details - institutional statements that separate personal defence from victim confidentiality. - **Appeal to Tradition** Implied: because pastoral confidentiality has historically been treated this way, it must continue to be handled only in these binary terms. > “There’s so much stuff that happens on the internet. It’s like Bethel doesn’t protect people… it’s like, yeah, there’s more to that story.” - **Bare Assertion / Special Pleading** “There’s more to the story” is claimed but not substantiated. The audience is asked to: - assume exonerating details exist, - while being told those details cannot be shared. - **Appeal to Ignorance** Implied: “You don’t know everything I know; therefore your concerns are unreliable.” Lack of accessible evidence is used to dismiss criticism. --- ## 4. Use of Personal Trauma and Anecdotes > Step‑father abuse story; juvenile hall story; dishonest boss story; “justice button… off the charts.” - **Appeal to Emotion / Pathos** Personal trauma is real and important. Here it functions rhetorically to: - build moral credibility (“protector is not my weakness”) - elicit sympathy for him as someone deeply formed by injustice. - **Subtle Appeal to Authority (experiential)** Because he has experienced injustice, he is positioned as especially qualified to: - interpret accusations and justice questions about himself/Bethel. - **Red Herring** The intensity of these stories can distract from the structural issues raised: - specific alleged mishandling of abuse or discipline - policies and power dynamics in the institution. --- ## 5. “We’re Always a Little Late” & Self‑Critique > “Bethel’s mistakes… shortcomings… we’re always a little late… Because we’re trying hard to see people redeemed.” - **Self‑Serving Bias / Framing Effect** Admits failure (lateness) but attributes it to *virtue* (“trying really hard to see people redeemed”), not: - poor policies - conflicts of interest - loyalty to leaders over safety of victims. - **False Cause (post hoc rationalization)** It’s suggested the *reason* for delayed action is their mercy orientation. This may be one factor, but other possible causal contributors are neither admitted nor examined. --- ## 6. Generalizations about the Church and Judgment > “The church is famous for making judgments about people. And I’m not participating in that…” - **Overgeneralization / Sweeping Statement** “The church is famous for…” takes historical episodes (Joan of Arc, Galileo, etc.) and: - universalizes them over all times and settings - downplays churches that have done careful, just discipline. - **Tu Quoque (You too)** By highlighting historical church injustices, he implies: - current critics risk being “like” those past persecutors, - which indirectly discredits them without examining their specific claims. --- ## 7. Judas, Solomon, and “Great Ministry vs. Character” > Judas doing ministry; Solomon’s wisdom and sexual sin; “we still read his books.” - **Equivocation on “ministry validity”** Conflates: - the *truthfulness or usefulness* of someone’s words - with whether that person should remain in leadership / be trusted currently. The fact that God can speak through flawed people doesn’t by itself address: - whether an unrepentant or unsafe leader should continue in power today. - **False Analogy** - Comparing modern leaders whose misconduct involves power, money, and global platforms to biblical figures with unique covenantal and historical roles. - Using Solomon/Judas to suggest we should still receive ministry from current leaders with serious moral failure is structurally not parallel (no canon formation process, no direct divine endorsement in the same way). --- ## 8. Binary Framing: Transparency vs. Church Reputation > “If you expose somebody from the podium… you just destroy that person’s reputation… you get to tell the whole world that churches are not safe…” - **False Dilemma / False Consequence** Suggests that public naming: - necessarily “destroys” individuals - necessarily broadcasts that “churches are not safe” to unbelievers. Leaves out: - careful, survivor‑centric public statements - the possibility that transparency *increases* trust. - **Slippery Slope** Public honesty about misconduct → global belief that churches are insane and unsafe. This is a strong causal leap, asserted not evidenced. --- ## 9. Social Media Criticism as “War Among Christians” > “Christians war against one another in front of the world… these are things that should be family problems…” - **No True Scotsman (boundary policing)** Implies that: - “family problems” should stay inside; going public is framed as a kind of betrayal. Critics who go public act “un‑Christian,” allowing him to discount their corrective role without engaging substance. - **Category Error / Misplaced Priority** Places unity and public image of “the family” above: - safety and truth‑telling by victims - wider accountability when internal processes have failed. --- ## 10. Rhetoric around Accusers and Evidence > “I am blackmailed all the time… If you don’t tell your story, we’re going to tell everybody that you did this thing.” - **Loaded Assertion** Claims repeated blackmail by unnamed parties: - extremely serious allegation - no verifiable detail - rhetorically paints accusers as malicious manipulators, inviting the audience to distrust future reports as potential blackmail. > “If there’s a story about Bethel where a leader didn’t get confronted… you just don’t know the rest of the story.” - **Begging the Question / Circular Reasoning** Premise: Bethel *does* confront leaders. Evidence for the premise: “If you hear otherwise, you don’t know the whole story.” The claim is supported by itself rather than independent verifiable facts. --- ## 11. “Everyone Sins” and Relative Righteousness > “If you’ve never sinned, get us started…” - **Red Herring / Moral Equivalence** Moves from the specific question of: - “Did X leader / institution mishandle abuse or discipline?” to the general: - “We are all sinners; who are you to judge?” This can: - blur the difference between ordinary failing and patterns of harmful misconduct in positions of power. - **False Equivalence** Treats all sin (in the abstract) as morally relevant in the same way to the question of: - whether a specific leader should face consequences for specific actions. --- ## 12. Implicit Authority and Self‑Credibility > “Nobody who knows me would ever accuse me of [failing to confront evil]. That’s just stupid.” - **Appeal to Character / Argument from Ethos** The claim: - rests on his own perception and on long‑term insiders (“the whole front row is laughing”). This is: - not logically *invalid* per se, but limited as evidence about specific cases, especially where harm has been alleged by people outside that inner circle. - **Appeal to Ridicule** (“That’s just stupid”) Dismisses the claim by mocking it rather than arguing against particular facts. --- ## 13. DARVO Analysis (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender) **D – Deny** - Direct denial of mischaracterization: > “If I believed that story I would have quit the ministry a long time ago.” > > “That did not happen.” - Structural denial: - “Bethel doesn’t protect people… it’s like, yeah, there’s more to that story” (implies accusations are at least incomplete, possibly false). **A – Attack** - Attacking accusers’ motives: > “People make huge amounts of money in media… boxing rings… pay‑per‑view.” - Attacking methods: > “Lynch mob society on social media… war against one another in front of the world.” - Subtle undermining: - Critics are driven by outrage, ignorance of “the rest of the story,” or a desire to shame entire family lines. **RVO – Reverse Victim and Offender** - Presenting himself/Bethel as primary victims: > “What people say on the internet costs families… my grandkids were constantly harassed… finally left school.” > > “I know what it’s like to have a permanent record of documentaries against me for 30 second clips… taken out of context.” - Shifts the central emotional focus from: - alleged victims of church mishandling to: - leaders and their families suffering due to publicity. - Frames public critics as functional aggressors against the church family: - “lynch mob,” - “boxing rings,” - “Christians war against one another,” - thus positioning leaders as unjustly attacked and needing protection. **Simultaneous Partial Acknowledgment** - He *does*: - acknowledge genuine victims exist - pray publicly for their restoration - admit lateness and some institutional shortcomings. - However, under DARVO lens, these acknowledgments sit alongside: - strong centering of his/Bethel’s suffering - repeated emphasis that outsiders lack key information - delegitimization of external critique as profiteering or mob‑like. This mix often appears in *sophisticated* DARVO: not outright “nothing happened,” but “it’s much more complex, we’re already dealing with it, and outside attacks are unfair and harmful.” --- ## 14. Meta‑Pattern Put together, the main argumentative pattern is: 1. **Complexity & Novelty** - “We’re the first generation shepherding in the internet age; the situation is unprecedented.” 2. **Asymmetry of Knowledge** - “We know things we can’t tell you, so public narratives are necessarily incomplete or distorted.” 3. **Moral Centering on Leaders’ Burdens** - heavy emphasis on personal pain, blackmail, family stigma, documentaries, etc. 4. **Partial Confession, Exculpatory Framing** - “We’re sometimes late, but only because we so badly want redemption.” 5. **Suspicion Toward Critics** - framed as mobs, profiteers, or at least dangerously naive. 6. **Appeal to Mercy and Shared Sinfulness** - which can, functionally, dilute attention to specific harms and accountability needs. Each of these steps includes specific logical fallacies (false dilemmas, overgeneralizations, appeals to motive/emotion, red herrings) and, taken together, map onto a DARVO‑like defense posture with religious rhetoric and pastoral‑care language layered over it. --- Here’s a structured pass through the sermon, focusing on logical fallacies (by type) and DARVO patterns. I’ll quote briefly, then label and explain. --- ## 1. Framing and Generalizations about the Internet & Social Media > “Social media has created a whole different dynamic in which you are guilty till you prove yourself innocent…” - **Hasty Generalization / Overgeneralization** Treats “social media” as if it *normally* or *always* functions as guilty‑until‑proven‑innocent, ignoring: - platforms where careful investigation is done - instances where alleged victims are disbelieved or silenced - **Composition / Ecological Fallacy** From some toxic online environments, he infers *social media as a whole* works this way. > “We have a lynch mob society on social media…” - **Loaded Language / Emotional Appeal (Pathos)** “Lynch mob” is rhetorically explosive. It equates public criticism or advocacy with extrajudicial mob killings, which: - inflates the moral gravity of online critique - implicitly casts critics as violent, irrational mobs. - **Slippery Slope (implied)** Online criticism → “lynch mob” → destruction of reputations → destruction of churches. Mechanisms in between are largely asserted, not demonstrated. --- ## 2. Victim/Persecutor Framing & Motives of Critics > “People make huge amounts of money in media… their media sites become boxing rings… pay‑per‑view.” - **Ad Hominem (circumstantial / motive attack)** Suggests critics’ accounts are driven by profit and spectacle, which: - attacks motivation rather than addressing factual claims - invites the audience to distrust them *because* they benefit. - **Poisoning the Well** Pre‑emptively undermines any future critical reporting by associating it with profiteering and exploitation. > “I think even most of those people… calling us out, my guess is that they have a really good heart. I guess they’re trying to do the right thing.” - **Concession‑with‑Undercut / False Benevolence** On the surface, he credits their motives, but in context: - earlier comments about profit, boxing rings, and lynch mobs frame them as harmful or corrupt - so this “charitable” statement softens tone without really revising the underlying negative characterization. --- ## 3. “Two Sides of the Story” and Confidentiality > “The problem is the second story can seldom be told when you’re a pastor… you must stay silent in the midst of accusation because you are a shepherd… not an attorney.” - **False Dilemma** Presents two options: 1. Break confidence to defend yourself (ministry over), or 2. Say nothing at all. Ignores options like: - independent third‑party investigations - public process explanations without disclosing victim‑identifying details - institutional statements that separate personal defence from victim confidentiality. - **Appeal to Tradition** Implied: because pastoral confidentiality has historically been treated this way, it must continue to be handled only in these binary terms. > “There’s so much stuff that happens on the internet. It’s like Bethel doesn’t protect people… it’s like, yeah, there’s more to that story.” - **Bare Assertion / Special Pleading** “There’s more to the story” is claimed but not substantiated. The audience is asked to: - assume exonerating details exist, - while being told those details cannot be shared. - **Appeal to Ignorance** Implied: “You don’t know everything I know; therefore your concerns are unreliable.” Lack of accessible evidence is used to dismiss criticism. --- ## 4. Use of Personal Trauma and Anecdotes > Step‑father abuse story; juvenile hall story; dishonest boss story; “justice button… off the charts.” - **Appeal to Emotion / Pathos** Personal trauma is real and important. Here it functions rhetorically to: - build moral credibility (“protector is not my weakness”) - elicit sympathy for him as someone deeply formed by injustice. - **Subtle Appeal to Authority (experiential)** Because he has experienced injustice, he is positioned as especially qualified to: - interpret accusations and justice questions about himself/Bethel. - **Red Herring** The intensity of these stories can distract from the structural issues raised: - specific alleged mishandling of abuse or discipline - policies and power dynamics in the institution. --- ## 5. “We’re Always a Little Late” & Self‑Critique > “Bethel’s mistakes… shortcomings… we’re always a little late… Because we’re trying hard to see people redeemed.” - **Self‑Serving Bias / Framing Effect** Admits failure (lateness) but attributes it to *virtue* (“trying really hard to see people redeemed”), not: - poor policies - conflicts of interest - loyalty to leaders over safety of victims. - **False Cause (post hoc rationalization)** It’s suggested the *reason* for delayed action is their mercy orientation. This may be one factor, but other possible causal contributors are neither admitted nor examined. --- ## 6. Generalizations about the Church and Judgment > “The church is famous for making judgments about people. And I’m not participating in that…” - **Overgeneralization / Sweeping Statement** “The church is famous for…” takes historical episodes (Joan of Arc, Galileo, etc.) and: - universalizes them over all times and settings - downplays churches that have done careful, just discipline. - **Tu Quoque (You too)** By highlighting historical church injustices, he implies: - current critics risk being “like” those past persecutors, - which indirectly discredits them without examining their specific claims. --- ## 7. Judas, Solomon, and “Great Ministry vs. Character” > Judas doing ministry; Solomon’s wisdom and sexual sin; “we still read his books.” - **Equivocation on “ministry validity”** Conflates: - the *truthfulness or usefulness* of someone’s words - with whether that person should remain in leadership / be trusted currently. The fact that God can speak through flawed people doesn’t by itself address: - whether an unrepentant or unsafe leader should continue in power today. - **False Analogy** - Comparing modern leaders whose misconduct involves power, money, and global platforms to biblical figures with unique covenantal and historical roles. - Using Solomon/Judas to suggest we should still receive ministry from current leaders with serious moral failure is structurally not parallel (no canon formation process, no direct divine endorsement in the same way). --- ## 8. Binary Framing: Transparency vs. Church Reputation > “If you expose somebody from the podium… you just destroy that person’s reputation… you get to tell the whole world that churches are not safe…” - **False Dilemma / False Consequence** Suggests that public naming: - necessarily “destroys” individuals - necessarily broadcasts that “churches are not safe” to unbelievers. Leaves out: - careful, survivor‑centric public statements - the possibility that transparency *increases* trust. - **Slippery Slope** Public honesty about misconduct → global belief that churches are insane and unsafe. This is a strong causal leap, asserted not evidenced. --- ## 9. Social Media Criticism as “War Among Christians” > “Christians war against one another in front of the world… these are things that should be family problems…” - **No True Scotsman (boundary policing)** Implies that: - “family problems” should stay inside; going public is framed as a kind of betrayal. Critics who go public act “un‑Christian,” allowing him to discount their corrective role without engaging substance. - **Category Error / Misplaced Priority** Places unity and public image of “the family” above: - safety and truth‑telling by victims - wider accountability when internal processes have failed. --- ## 10. Rhetoric around Accusers and Evidence > “I am blackmailed all the time… If you don’t tell your story, we’re going to tell everybody that you did this thing.” - **Loaded Assertion** Claims repeated blackmail by unnamed parties: - extremely serious allegation - no verifiable detail - rhetorically paints accusers as malicious manipulators, inviting the audience to distrust future reports as potential blackmail. > “If there’s a story about Bethel where a leader didn’t get confronted… you just don’t know the rest of the story.” - **Begging the Question / Circular Reasoning** Premise: Bethel *does* confront leaders. Evidence for the premise: “If you hear otherwise, you don’t know the whole story.” The claim is supported by itself rather than independent verifiable facts. --- ## 11. “Everyone Sins” and Relative Righteousness > “If you’ve never sinned, get us started…” - **Red Herring / Moral Equivalence** Moves from the specific question of: - “Did X leader / institution mishandle abuse or discipline?” to the general: - “We are all sinners; who are you to judge?” This can: - blur the difference between ordinary failing and patterns of harmful misconduct in positions of power. - **False Equivalence** Treats all sin (in the abstract) as morally relevant in the same way to the question of: - whether a specific leader should face consequences for specific actions. --- ## 12. Implicit Authority and Self‑Credibility > “Nobody who knows me would ever accuse me of [failing to confront evil]. That’s just stupid.” - **Appeal to Character / Argument from Ethos** The claim: - rests on his own perception and on long‑term insiders (“the whole front row is laughing”). This is: - not logically *invalid* per se, but limited as evidence about specific cases, especially where harm has been alleged by people outside that inner circle. - **Appeal to Ridicule** (“That’s just stupid”) Dismisses the claim by mocking it rather than arguing against particular facts. --- ## 13. DARVO Analysis (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender) **D – Deny** - Direct denial of mischaracterization: > “If I believed that story I would have quit the ministry a long time ago.” > > “That did not happen.” - Structural denial: - “Bethel doesn’t protect people… it’s like, yeah, there’s more to that story” (implies accusations are at least incomplete, possibly false). **A – Attack** - Attacking accusers’ motives: > “People make huge amounts of money in media… boxing rings… pay‑per‑view.” - Attacking methods: > “Lynch mob society on social media… war against one another in front of the world.” - Subtle undermining: - Critics are driven by outrage, ignorance of “the rest of the story,” or a desire to shame entire family lines. **RVO – Reverse Victim and Offender** - Presenting himself/Bethel as primary victims: > “What people say on the internet costs families… my grandkids were constantly harassed… finally left school.” > > “I know what it’s like to have a permanent record of documentaries against me for 30 second clips… taken out of context.” - Shifts the central emotional focus from: - alleged victims of church mishandling to: - leaders and their families suffering due to publicity. - Frames public critics as functional aggressors against the church family: - “lynch mob,” - “boxing rings,” - “Christians war against one another,” - thus positioning leaders as unjustly attacked and needing protection. **Simultaneous Partial Acknowledgment** - He *does*: - acknowledge genuine victims exist - pray publicly for their restoration - admit lateness and some institutional shortcomings. - However, under DARVO lens, these acknowledgments sit alongside: - strong centering of his/Bethel’s suffering - repeated emphasis that outsiders lack key information - delegitimization of external critique as profiteering or mob‑like. This mix often appears in *sophisticated* DARVO: not outright “nothing happened,” but “it’s much more complex, we’re already dealing with it, and outside attacks are unfair and harmful.” --- ## 14. Meta‑Pattern Put together, the main argumentative pattern is: 1. **Complexity & Novelty** - “We’re the first generation shepherding in the internet age; the situation is unprecedented.” 2. **Asymmetry of Knowledge** - “We know things we can’t tell you, so public narratives are necessarily incomplete or distorted.” 3. **Moral Centering on Leaders’ Burdens** - heavy emphasis on personal pain, blackmail, family stigma, documentaries, etc. 4. **Partial Confession, Exculpatory Framing** - “We’re sometimes late, but only because we so badly want redemption.” 5. **Suspicion Toward Critics** - framed as mobs, profiteers, or at least dangerously naive. 6. **Appeal to Mercy and Shared Sinfulness** - which can, functionally, dilute attention to specific harms and accountability needs. Each of these steps includes specific logical fallacies (false dilemmas, overgeneralizations, appeals to motive/emotion, red herrings) and, taken together, map onto a DARVO‑like defense posture with religious rhetoric and pastoral‑care language layered over it.  ## Highlights - my extended family members as well. We were having open discussion at the dining room table, just saying testimonies, talking about the Lord, and my 13-year-old cousin just starts weeping. And he's like, "I don't know why I'm crying right now." And it's like, we were like, "It's the Holy Spirit. It's Jesus." We got the chance to pray over him. He received the Lord. [laughter] Yes. [applause] Yeah. And and then I had another cousin ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01khfnadcwg8t18ckm1dqedkbh)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - answer them. And I just release my testimony onto everybody else in this room that the Lord will save your family members. And it's not going to be by striving by works, but it's it's just going to be out of the puress of his love and by representing him. [applause] >> Hi, my name is Aelia. I am first year ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01khfnadd92qra7efw2ryzg2x2)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - at school right before going to the winter holidays. We had a prayer meeting especially for our families like sisters and brothers and uh I bought a secret kit to another city to visit my friend who is in jail and actually like this friend who is in jail. She has been there for four years now. Two years ago she received Jesus and she shares the gospel over there. And while I was there in my city, the girl from that jail that ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01khfnadejpsfdaa8hy0qe96e9)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - leading people astray and doing bad things to people. And you were, you know, when that person would come in the room, you're praying that they get delivered and healed and cough up something, you know, but you're on high alert. Like all the elders are on high alert. You know who that person is. And and and once in a while a stranger comes in that nobody knows. But when you're in town of 3,000, there's not a lot of strangers. And when you have nine businesses in a town of 3,000, you pretty much know everybody. And you know the broken people and you know their story. And so you're, you ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01khfnadh4xacvvc0byckpbd2c)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - forgiveness and he said that I if if you go to a person and he's sinned against you and then you take another person and then you take another person and that doesn't work, you tell it to the church. Well, there there's no such thing as telling it to the church without telling it to the world anymore. If you expose somebody from the podium within a day, people who you didn't plan to have that message sent to them, >> have that message sent to them. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01khfnadmd58g1ybsgzb5qd182)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - walk with people, you have another perspective >> and you're like, "Yeah, that person's pretty destructive, but there are lots of other dynamics going on." >> Are you with me? And then there's then there's people who are in on the internet and they are the victims of some Christian maybe some Christian some Christian leader. It's all above, right? It's it's all over the place actually. And uh and maybe you ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01khfnadsjfqetfsb83qpye9s3)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - and and you win people and people need to confess their sins, right? Because if you confess your sins, first John, then he's faithful to forgive your sin to to forgive your sins and cleanse you from all righteousness, but it comes with confess, right? First, so you you one of the things that happens in counseling and pastoral care and just friendship is that after a while, people get to trust you and they tell you things that they're ashamed of. and you pray for ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01khfnae3jpad5pdnv159tbqgm)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - them and you know things about them and you would never take that information and give it to anyone else. So when people are telling somebody's story that they were this or this happened to them or or there was you know all these things that happened and you like know the rest of that story and the only way you could defend yourself is to tell the rest of that story. Your life as a minister is over when you ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01khfnaedf8bj9knfcm82d0qrh)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - let me tell you this backstory here because Proverbs says when the first person tells a story seems to be right till the second person tells the story. The problem is the second story can seldom be told when you're a pastor because you know things you better never share with anyone to defend yourself. And so you must stay silent in the midst of accusation because you are a shepherd of a flock, ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01khfnaep949k8wgcp21m065q2)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - really good ministry. Jesus encountered a guy. Remember this? He said, "Didn't I cast out demons? Didn't I prophesy? Didn't I didn't did didn't I do miracles?" And he said, "Get away from me. I never knew you." He didn't go, "No, you didn't." He just said, "I never knew you." And I'm pointing out that people that are being accused, not all them, I don't know all of them, but the, you know, the two two or three I know that are kind of always in this thing, like they have really good ministry. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01khfnaf6e6ztqave94bg41afr)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted