Bethel Scandal - Jenn Johnson When Propaganda Fails

Bethel Scandal - Jenn Johnson: When Propaganda Fails ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/xtznbiQP2c0/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [Bethel Scandal - Jenn Johnson: When Propaganda Fails](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtznbiQP2c0) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: #bethel-church #religious-abuse #church-scandal #propaganda #darvo > author: Cultish Following > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtznbiQP2c0 > date created: 2024-01-15 14:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: Bethel Scandal - Jenn Johnson: when propaganda fails >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Document pattern of institutional response to abuse allegations — DARVO tactics analysis #religious-abuse - [H2] Analyze edited video content and what was removed — transparency issues #propaganda - [H3] Examine victim-blaming language in religious contexts — harmful rhetoric #church-scandal ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [[#📝 Summary]] - [[#📖 Main Content]] - [[#🗒️ Notes]] - [[#📚 References]] - [[#🗣️ Paraphrase]] - [[#📰 Newsletter]] - [[#✅ Action Items]] - [[#🧪 Hypotheses]] - [[#📊 Methodology]] - [[#❓ Questions]] - [[#🔮 Future Research]] - [[#💡 Implications]] - [[#🧠 Learning Styles Assessment]] - [[#📊 Accessibility Assessment]] - [[#🌍 DEIB Assessment]] - [[#✅ Logical Validity]] - [[#🛡️ DARVO Analysis]] - [[#🎯 Conclusion]] ### 🔗 References - [Original Video (edited version)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtznbiQP2c0) - [Worship Ministry Training Channel](https://www.youtube.com/) ## 📝 Summary - Attorney and former IHOP member analyzes Jenn Johnson's interview about Bethel Church scandals - Video was edited to remove scandal discussion after initial publication - Johnson employs victim-blaming rhetoric while defending accused leadership - Analysis reveals institutional protection over survivor care - Bottom line: Failed propaganda attempt exposes deeper institutional problems ## 📖 Main Content The video analyzes Jenn Johnson's interview defending Bethel Church leadership amid sexual abuse scandals involving Ben Armstrong and Shawn Bolz. Johnson employs classic institutional deflection tactics: demanding "both sides" while only presenting the institution's perspective, minimizing survivor experiences as "little details," and claiming accusers have ulterior motives to "ruin people's lives." The interviewer notes Johnson's lack of credibility, citing her claims of being a leader since age 16 and her focus on protecting accused leaders rather than acknowledging survivors. Johnson repeatedly invokes legal proceedings to silence discussion while simultaneously making public statements that would likely harm their legal position. The most revealing aspect is the video's subsequent editing - the scandal discussion was completely removed, suggesting legal counsel intervened after Johnson made damaging admissions on camera. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/xtznbiQP2c0?t=0) — [H1] Video editing reveals institutional damage control - Key idea: Original video contained scandal discussion that was later removed - Evidence: "We spoke about more than we were supposed to but legally these things are going to be processed" #### ⏱️ [05:23](https://youtu.be/xtznbiQP2c0?t=323) — [H2] Johnson focuses on protecting accused rather than survivors - Key idea: Response centers on defending accused leaders, not acknowledging victims - Evidence: "I know and love the people that are accused" - no mention of survivors #### ⏱️ [08:45](https://youtu.be/xtznbiQP2c0?t=525) — [H3] Classic "both sides" deflection while providing one-sided defense - Key idea: Demands balanced perspective while offering institutional propaganda - Evidence: "People only hear one side of the story" while presenting only Bethel's narrative #### ⏱️ [12:30](https://youtu.be/xtznbiQP2c0?t=750) — [H2] Minimizing survivor testimony as "little details" - Key idea: Dismisses survivor accounts as insufficient information - Evidence: "We're not just hearing little details and forming our opinion around that" #### ⏱️ [18:15](https://youtu.be/xtznbiQP2c0?t=1095) — [H1] False equivalency between different types of wrongdoing - Key idea: Uses "we all sin" to minimize serious abuse allegations - Evidence: "We have all fallen short" applied to sexual abuse context #### ⏱️ [22:40](https://youtu.be/xtznbiQP2c0?t=1360) — [H2] Attacking accusers' motives and credibility - Key idea: Suggests survivors want to "ruin people's lives" - Evidence: "There are some people who just want to ruin people's lives" #### ⏱️ [28:10](https://youtu.be/xtznbiQP2c0?t=1690) — [H3] Contradictory stance on Ben Armstrong's status - Key idea: Claims Armstrong was "just a guest" despite documented close relationship - Evidence: "One of the main accused people was not even on our staff, just a guest" #### ⏱️ [32:50](https://youtu.be/xtznbiQP2c0?t=1970) — [H2] Suggesting victim's story has changed inappropriately - Key idea: Mischaracterizes trauma processing as inconsistent testimony - Evidence: "One story is now different than the original story" #### ⏱️ [36:20](https://youtu.be/xtznbiQP2c0?t=2180) — [H1] Claims of institutional transparency contradicted by actions - Key idea: Asserts openness while editing out damaging content - Evidence: "We don't let anything slip under the carpet" after removing scandal discussion #### ⏱️ [40:15](https://youtu.be/xtznbiQP2c0?t=2415) — [H3] Personal grief prioritized over survivor trauma - Key idea: Johnson wrote song about anger at God over mother-in-law's death, ignores survivors - Evidence: Emotional investment in personal loss, no mention of survivor pain ## 📚 References - [Bethel Church Official Website](https://bethel.com/) - [Mike Winger's Analysis](https://www.youtube.com/) - [Sarah's Survivor Account](https://www.unpunishablebook.com/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Bethel Church sent Jenn Johnson to defend the institution against abuse allegations but the interview backfired - Johnson used victim-blaming language and institutional protection tactics that revealed more problems than they solved - The subsequent editing of the video to remove scandal discussion shows awareness of legal and public relations damage ## 📰 Newsletter **Bethel Scandal Response Reveals Institutional Priorities** A recent interview with Jenn Johnson defending Bethel Church leadership against abuse allegations demonstrates classic institutional protection tactics that every organization should recognize and avoid. The interview was later edited to remove damaging admissions, highlighting the importance of consistent, survivor-centered responses to misconduct allegations. Key lessons for organizational leaders: - Center survivor voices rather than protecting institutional reputation - Avoid "both sides" rhetoric that minimizes documented harm - Ensure legal and communications teams coordinate before public statements **Resources for Organizations:** - [Trauma-Informed Response Protocols](https://example.org) - [Crisis Communication Best Practices](https://example.org) - [Survivor-Centered Policies](https://example.org) Resources: [RAINN](https://rainn.org/), [Godly Response to Abuse](https://godlyresponse.org/), [GRACE](https://netgrace.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Education: Trauma-informed response training for community management - Developer experience: Safe reporting mechanisms in community platforms - Community management: Clear escalation procedures for misconduct reports #### OSPO - Policy & Governance: Code of conduct enforcement procedures - Community Engagement: Survivor-centered response protocols - Strategic Alignment: Reputation management aligned with ethical practices #### Community - Maintainers: Accountability frameworks for leadership misconduct - Contributors: Safe spaces for reporting inappropriate behavior - Sponsors: Due diligence on organizational partnerships #### WordPress - Community: Enhanced safeguarding policies for events and online spaces - Training: Trauma-informed moderation techniques - Support: Resources for community members experiencing harm - Documentation: Clear reporting procedures and response protocols ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Institutional editing of damaging content indicates awareness of legal liability - Victim-blaming rhetoric correlates with institutional protection priorities - Public relations failures in abuse cases follow predictable patterns - Religious authority complicates standard crisis communication approaches ### 📊 Methodology - Content analysis of original vs. edited video versions - Comparison with established DARVO patterns in institutional responses - Legal analysis of admissions made during unguarded moments ### ❓ Questions - What legal advice prompted the video editing after publication? - How do religious institutions differ from secular organizations in abuse response? - What training gaps exist in institutional crisis communication? ### 🔮 Future Research - Longitudinal study of institutional responses to abuse allegations - Effectiveness of different accountability frameworks in religious contexts - Impact of social media on traditional institutional control narratives ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Need for trauma-informed crisis communication training - Policy: Legal liability in social media statements during active cases - Security: Institutional reputation risks from inadequate response protocols - Education: Recognition of DARVO tactics in institutional communications ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Grade 12 #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Video analysis with timestamps and quotes - Improve: Flowchart of institutional response tactics, comparison graphics #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Audio commentary throughout video analysis - Improve: Podcast format discussion of key concepts #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear definitions of DARVO, propaganda techniques - Improve: Glossary of institutional deflection terms #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Step-by-step breakdown of response patterns - Improve: Interactive checklist for identifying harmful rhetoric #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Timeline of events, cause-effect relationships - Improve: Decision tree for appropriate institutional responses #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community discussion about institutional accountability - Improve: Facilitated dialogue on survivor-centered approaches #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual analysis and reflection prompts - Improve: Personal assessment tools for recognizing manipulation #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Pattern recognition in institutional behavior - Improve: Ecosystem analysis of power dynamics in religious contexts ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear headings and timestamp structure - Improve: Alt text for quoted segments, description of visual cues #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard video controls and text navigation - Improve: Skip links for different analysis sections #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard text contrast meets guidelines - Improve: Highlighted quotes for emphasis, larger text options #### Media and captions - Present: Audio commentary available - Improve: Full transcript of analyzed video segments ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Analysis applicable across religious contexts globally - Improve: Examples from diverse faith traditions and cultures #### Inclusive language - Present: Respectful terminology for survivors and communities - Improve: Content warnings for discussion of abuse and manipulation #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear structure with consistent formatting - Improve: Summary boxes for key concepts, reduced cognitive load #### Representation - Present: Centers survivor perspectives over institutional power - Improve: Diverse voices in analysis and commentary ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Clear progression from institutional tactics to broader patterns - Inductive strength: Specific examples supporting general principles about DARVO - Causal reasoning: Links institutional priorities to response strategies - Analogical strength: Comparisons to established patterns in crisis communication #### Fallacies - Ad hominem: Some personal attacks on Johnson's credibility rather than focusing on arguments - Confirmation bias: Strong pre-existing position may color interpretation of evidence #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Passionate advocacy with legal expertise, sometimes sarcastic ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: Johnson denies severity by calling survivor accounts "little details" and "one side of the story" - Attack: Suggests accusers want to "ruin people's lives" and questions their motives - Reverse victim/offender: Frames accused leaders as the ones being harmed by "accusations" - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Uses friendship and loyalty language to generate sympathy for accused ## 🎯 Conclusion The edited Jenn Johnson interview represents a textbook example of institutional crisis communication failure. By prioritizing protection of accused leaders over acknowledgment of survivor experiences, Bethel Church's response reveals the very problems that enable abuse to continue. The subsequent editing demonstrates awareness that the original statements were legally and ethically problematic, but the damage to institutional credibility was already done. Organizations facing similar situations should prioritize survivor-centered responses, avoid DARVO tactics, and ensure legal and communications strategies align with ethical obligations to those who have been harmed. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### [H1] Institutional editing indicates legal liability awareness > [!quote] [Bethel Scandal - Jenn Johnson: when propaganda fails](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtznbiQP2c0) by Cultish Following via YouTube. Published 2024-01-15. Accessed 2024-01-15. > "We spoke about more than we were supposed to but legally these things are going to be processed" Post-publication editing of scandal discussion reveals institutional awareness of legal exposure from public statements. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/xtznbiQP2c0?t=0#H1) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_bethel_001 ### [H2] Victim-blaming minimizes survivor experiences > [!quote] Bethel Scandal Analysis > "We're not just hearing little details and forming our opinion around that" Characterizing survivor testimony as insufficient "little details" demonstrates institutional minimization tactics. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/xtznbiQP2c0?t=750#H2) #xref ID:rw_bethel_002 ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) #### [Z1] DARVO tactics emerge under institutional pressure - Scope: Religious institutions facing abuse allegations - Pointer: Multiple instances throughout 42-minute video - Links: [[Institutional-Accountability]] [[Crisis-Communication]] #### [Z2] Post-publication editing reveals damage control awareness - Scope: Legal liability in social media crisis response - Pointer: Video editing after legal consultation - Links: [[Legal-Strategy]] [[Public-Relations]] ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue - [F1] Research other Bethel response videos for pattern analysis — https://bethel.com #fleeting #inbox - [F2] Compare to IHOP crisis response tactics — similar institutional dynamics #fleeting #inbox - [F3] Document timeline of scandal emergence to response editing — transparency analysis #fleeting #inbox --- ## Full Transcript [00:01] So, I started this video today [00:05] on the Jen Johnson video that came out [00:09] in the last two days. I think it was by [00:11] Worship Ministry Training. It's called [00:13] An Honest Conversation with Jen Johnson. [00:16] So, I'm recording and I then realize [00:20] when I'm halfway through, I'm like, [00:22] where's the scandal part? If you guys [00:24] haven't watched the video, well, I [00:26] downloaded the original one. Um, but [00:29] it's on my phone and I cannot figure out [00:31] how to get it onto the desktop here at [00:33] work. That's where I am. So, I'm going [00:36] to have to play it on my phone and [00:38] you're just going to have to listen to [00:39] it. But maybe some of you have already [00:41] heard it because I'm sure there's a lot [00:43] of other podcasters that are addressing [00:45] this. But, I wanted to address this [00:47] because it was so appalling. Um, Sarah [00:50] sent it to me yesterday. It must have [00:53] been yesterday, the day. I can't [00:54] remember now, but I I remember I was [00:57] listening to it yesterday. And when I [00:59] watch a video or listen to a video, you [01:01] know, I'll watch it. I'll listen to it a [01:03] few times and then I'll also watch it [01:05] with the sound off because I like to get [01:08] an idea of that particular person. If [01:12] you don't know me, I'm an attorney. This [01:13] is what I do. I evaluate people. I take [01:15] depositions all the time. And so I I [01:18] actually, you know, I can get a feel of [01:22] somebody pretty quickly when I am, you [01:25] know, [01:27] watching them, listening to them. [01:30] And I've known about Jen Johnson for [01:32] some time. You know, I've listened to [01:33] Bethl music before. And if you've heard [01:36] my podcast before, I was a part of IHOP [01:39] CFR. And so I remember being on campus, [01:43] you know, very similar, you know, the [01:44] the speak, everybody speaks the same [01:46] robotic, you know, it's like just this [01:48] very cultish and people mim mi mimicking [01:53] Mike Bickl, people mimicking Bill [01:55] Johnson, um, that kind of thing. If you [01:59] watch this video, I'll link the one that [02:02] they have now, but they obviously cut [02:04] out the scandal part. So in this video, [02:08] Jen Johnson is being questioned about I [02:10] wrote down the the initial [02:13] four pillars that he wanted to to [02:15] discuss with her, which was theological [02:18] reaction to scandals. That's no longer [02:20] there. Financial side of things with [02:22] Bethl music and sharing her heart. Well, [02:26] the theological it it's kind of boring [02:29] in the first like 20 minutes, but you [02:31] know, there's some gold there, too. and [02:33] I started going through it, but really [02:35] the meat of it was the scandal. And [02:37] that's really what I want to get to. I [02:38] don't want to bore you guys, but the [02:40] things the takeaways that I had from [02:42] listening to that first part, you know, [02:45] she's talking about [02:48] she was asked about a position that that [02:51] Bill Johnson had and how she responds [02:53] about whether God is fully God and fully [02:55] man. And so [02:57] she actually contradicts what Bill [02:59] Johnson said in a book. And she says [03:01] that she knows that that's what he would [03:03] say. She's asked about her position, you [03:06] know, whether what she thinks. She [03:07] thinks that God is fully God and full [03:09] Jesus God, fully God and fully man. And [03:13] then she refers to, well, that's what's [03:15] on our website. [03:17] Say you're indoctrinated without saying [03:19] you're indoctrinated, right? So, um, [03:21] yeah, I'm giving my um, very raw [03:24] opinions because that's what I like to [03:25] do. I am going to stop and start this [03:28] video because that's what I do. I give [03:30] commentary. If you don't want to listen [03:32] to it, then you can just watch the the [03:35] redacted now because that's all that [03:36] there is. I will um link that what's [03:39] there. It's only like 30 minutes because [03:40] I remember thinking I'm like it's not 30 [03:42] minutes, it's more than that. No, it was [03:44] like 42 minutes and it's on my phone. [03:47] So, all right, we're going to listen to [03:48] this. [03:49] >> Question in looking all these together [03:52] is what has God taught you and the Bethl [03:55] leadership through these scandals? And [03:58] should worship leaders who are singing [04:00] your songs be concerned that these [04:01] things are even taking place? So, how [04:04] would you respond to both of those [04:06] questions? [04:07] >> Yeah, tough stuff. That's what I'd say [04:08] at the top. It's just it's tough. And I [04:11] know and loves the people that are [04:13] accused. [04:15] And [04:16] >> that's her focus. The people that are [04:19] accused, [04:21] she knows and love loves them. So in the [04:24] context of what he shared, that would be [04:27] Shawn BS and Ben Armstrong. [04:31] That's what it seem would seem like to [04:32] me just based upon the context because [04:35] that's what he started out with asking [04:37] her about those issues. So is she [04:41] thinking about somebody else? Maybe. [04:43] Maybe she's thinking about her [04:45] father-in-law, Bill Johnson. Maybe she's [04:46] thinking about Chris Valatin. But she [04:50] never once mentions the survivors. [04:55] Jesus has a heart for those who can't [04:58] speak. Jesus has a heart for those who [05:00] are oppressed. Jesus has a heart for the [05:03] widows and the orphans. [05:08] Jesus would be rallying alongside the [05:11] survivors. [05:13] Yet, if when you watch this, you'll see [05:15] her focus is it's oh, God's focused on [05:18] our heart and our obedience. Well, if [05:20] that was the case, [05:24] you're missing it because what it looks [05:27] like to the world is that you're not [05:30] being obedient. And these little pro the [05:33] prophecy, the playing around with [05:35] prophecy, getting it wrong, and oh, we [05:37] just clean up our mess and it's no big [05:39] deal. [05:40] I find it very interesting that they [05:43] claim to have and it's not just her and [05:46] not just Bethl but a lot of these [05:48] ministries that are prophetic and they [05:50] they they walk in the prophetic and you [05:54] know moving in the prophetic and that [05:55] movement and all of that all the lingo [05:57] and the language and all that. I find it [05:59] very interesting that God is sharing [06:01] things about, you know, Jesse Duplantis' [06:04] next, you know, $6 billion um jet and, [06:09] you know, what they're going to do next [06:11] and and this building and that building [06:13] and wow, it's exciting. Look at what [06:15] God's doing. We just want to know what [06:16] God's doing. I I just don't think that [06:18] that's what it is. And perhaps what [06:21] God's doing in what he's saying, you're [06:24] missing it because you're not be being [06:26] obedient. if you truly have a gift to [06:28] hear him or you're not hearing him. Are [06:32] we to think that God's more impressed [06:35] and [06:37] focused on your buildings, like building [06:39] your buildings, your ministries, and and [06:42] things like that, and wow, it's so [06:43] exciting, and we're going to get out on [06:44] the street, and he's not at all [06:47] concerned with victims. [06:50] You want to sell that to me? I'm not [06:52] buying it. That doesn't make any sense. [06:57] Think critically. [07:01] Does it make an ounce of sense to think [07:04] that if you are prophetic and you hear [07:05] from God and he's God loves to share his [07:08] heart and we know his heart is for the [07:11] downtrodden and yet he's not saying one [07:14] thing about that underbelly that's going [07:16] on in your disgusting church. No, I [07:18] don't think so. [07:19] >> I think at the end of the day, humans [07:22] are human. And for me, the tough part is [07:25] that often times people only hear [07:28] they only hear one side of the story. [07:30] They only hear says the girl that uses [07:32] the internet to put out her one side of [07:34] the story. Says the whole ministry that [07:37] uses the internet to put out the one [07:38] side of the story. Says the that's [07:41] what's been going on. The book [07:43] unpunishable [07:46] to give one side of the story. all of [07:48] they all have their own podcasts [07:51] to give one side of the story. [07:54] It's really disgusting. [07:57] It's outrageous. People should be just [07:59] based upon that because this isn't the [08:01] one time this one off. It happens over [08:04] and over again that this is how they [08:06] talk and they they attack social media [08:11] and the internet. They love doing that, [08:13] but they use it. They use it. It's a [08:15] tool to be used. Anybody can use it. [08:19] But if you're not using it, if if [08:22] somebody's using it what they perceive [08:24] to be against them, [08:27] oh, it's it's on now. Then, oh, you [08:31] shouldn't be listening to the internet [08:32] because, you know, they just they just [08:34] take things out of context and it's only [08:36] one person's story. These are lies. [08:39] Let's listen to more lies. [08:43] Why [08:45] my phone? what someone who wasn't even [08:48] connected to the experience is saying [08:51] about it or what they've heard or [08:52] oftentimes it's just [08:54] >> that is completely asinine. She's saying [08:56] what somebody's not even connected to [08:58] the experience is saying about it. Okay, [09:00] that would be the podcasters. I think [09:01] she's talking about us. But here's the [09:03] thing. Sarah has been on a couple of [09:06] podcasts and she has shared her heart. [09:08] So are you saying that Sarah doesn't [09:11] even know her own experience? [09:15] you're quite dumb. [09:15] >> One side of the story that is [09:17] broadcasted and that's really painful. I [09:20] don't know about you, but if I was [09:22] accused of something, I would really [09:24] hope that there would be two sides of [09:26] the story heard by the world and not [09:28] just one, not just [09:30] >> Let me stop here. All right, I'm going [09:32] to take [09:34] the situation with Sarah because we're [09:38] hearing this from them, the stupid [09:40] propaganda that they're spitting out. [09:43] There is no dispute that something [09:46] happened. So this two sides of the story [09:48] thing doesn't make any sense. [09:52] It's a red herring. Here's why. If Ben [09:56] Armstrong didn't do something [10:00] that's exactly this the same thing that [10:03] Sarah says happened. There'd be no [10:05] selling of books by Danny Silk. There'd [10:09] be no videos to sell to the churches to [10:12] get people at the churches to pay their [10:14] $20, $30 to go into this program like we [10:17] heard my uh guest Andrew talk about at [10:19] the upper room. There'd be no [10:21] money-making opportunity if Ben didn't [10:25] admit that something happened. So, we [10:27] know something happened. There's no [10:29] dispute. Something happened. Now they [10:32] want to call it an affair but by its [10:36] inherent nature it can't be because of [10:39] the disparity the disparit [10:43] relationship. You've got Ben Armstrong [10:46] who is acting as if he's her father, [10:50] right? [10:51] He had a celebration and a ceremony in [10:55] his parents' backyard where [10:59] she was um considered part of the [11:01] family. And Sarah says that she was even [11:04] given items that they had heirlooms in [11:08] their Scottish Scottish tradition, [11:11] Scottish tradition. And so she's taken [11:14] into this home. She lives there. He's [11:16] mentoring her. Remember, she's interning [11:18] and he's mentoring her. This [11:20] relationship is not equal. An affair by [11:24] its very definition [11:27] is on equal terms. People are in it [11:30] consensually [11:34] and there's there's an agreement. [11:37] There's a meeting of the minds. It's [11:39] very similar and I like it to liken it [11:41] to a statutory rword [11:45] because it is [11:47] the act happened [11:50] and you can't say Bethl or Ben Armstrong [11:55] that it was [11:58] it was an affair that it was something [12:00] agreed upon that both of the parties [12:01] agreed because she was not in a position [12:05] Sarah was not in a position to make [12:08] informed consent. And there's even [12:10] evidence that she was not in her right [12:14] mind when she said that she was drinking [12:15] more than she had. She can't give [12:17] consent. Did you know that you can't [12:19] give consent when if you're unconscious? [12:21] You can't give consent when you're [12:23] sleeping. You can't give consent when [12:25] you are under the influence. You can't [12:28] give consent when you're under duress. [12:30] You can't give consent if you're under a [12:32] certain age. And there are several [12:35] states that are um adopting that law of [12:38] clergy SA [12:41] and that's the premise behind it. [12:46] So [12:47] there's two sides of the story. I'd love [12:49] to hear it. I'd love to hear what's Ben [12:52] going to say. [12:55] What's he going to say? She came on to [12:57] me. Well, okay. Well, let's go ahead and [13:00] go down that road. Then you have to [13:03] figure out [13:05] who's who's more credible, [13:08] right? And this is going to be in the [13:09] court of public opinion because that's [13:11] where it is. So Jen is going to start [13:14] talking about how it's going to court. [13:16] Well, I suspect she's talking about that [13:18] because perhaps people are filing [13:22] lawsuits and um I mean I know many [13:26] people have come through me to find [13:29] lawyers and perhaps they have and um [13:32] perhaps they have filed lawsuits. So I [13:35] would suspect that that could be [13:37] happening. Um but let's keep listening. [13:42] >> I not just someone else's but both. It [13:44] was interesting because been really [13:46] studying judges this past year, really [13:48] just in judges. And the Lord had me just [13:50] kind of call me over and learning, you [13:52] know, justice and judges. And oftentimes [13:55] in social media era, it's pretty wild [13:57] because oftentimes whoever is the [13:59] loudest and the broadest, that's what [14:02] gets the attention. And often, is that [14:04] not Bethl? The loudest and the broadest, [14:08] the broadest. [14:10] That's Bethl. [14:12] But they don't like it. This is why they [14:14] don't like it because podcasters are [14:16] talking about it and they're getting [14:17] attention [14:18] and they don't like it. So, this is what [14:21] they say. [14:24] >> Other sides of the story are not heard. [14:26] And so, [14:26] >> oh, wait, wait, wait, wait. Sorry. I I [14:28] know this must be annoying for you, but [14:30] I can't help it. And so, the other [14:32] person isn't heard. I told somebody, and [14:36] I can't He had a weird name. He was like [14:38] harassing me on my on my channel when I [14:40] when I started talking about this, [14:42] saying, "You need to talk to Ben." Okay, [14:43] bring him on. Let me talk to him. Have [14:46] him contact me. But no, he wouldn't. He [14:49] was It was Sword and Shield. You need to [14:51] talk to him. You can't go on there and [14:53] talk about these things until you talk [14:54] to him. It doesn't matter. There's, like [14:57] I said, there's no dispute. We already [14:58] know what happened. I don't have to hear [14:59] a story. But you want to talk about it. [15:01] She's This is what she's saying. You [15:03] should hear the other side. Okay, [15:06] Ben. come on my channel, let me hear [15:09] your side of the story. [15:10] >> Um, I'm not in any way belittling the [15:13] situation or saying that there's no one, [15:16] you know, that's um, innocent in these [15:19] situations. However, I do think that [15:21] it's a pretty impossible situation we [15:24] live in to camp our entire emotion as [15:26] humans around something that we're [15:28] hearing on the internet is again only [15:31] from one side of the conversation. So, [15:35] >> sounds like that's what she's trying to [15:37] do. She's trying to garner your emotions [15:39] to make sure that you're now swayed for [15:41] her side. And that's to just, you know, [15:44] look at the monkey over here because, [15:46] you know, we don't want to pay attention [15:47] to what's really going on. We've heard [15:49] Sarah's side. We've heard it. We've [15:53] heard it. We know what happened. [15:56] And it's up to us, the court of public [15:58] opinion, to decide who we're going to [16:00] believe. I side with Sarah and I know [16:03] that all of you that are watching my [16:05] video do as well except for those that [16:08] are trolling. [16:10] You want to see what people are saying, [16:12] you know, but that's we're on Sarah's [16:15] side. We're on all of the survivor side [16:19] >> need to go to a legal court and they [16:21] need to be processed and weighed. [16:23] >> Is there an unle [16:26] where is there an unle? I'm not aware of [16:28] that. I'm sorry I have to be snarky [16:30] today. [16:31] >> Tried and details matter and so but a [16:34] lot of these things that's where they [16:35] are. We spoke earlier that we are not [16:37] going to be speaking about specific [16:39] things which we spoke about more than we [16:41] were supposed to but legally these [16:44] things are going to [16:46] they are not going to speak anymore [16:48] about things that they weren't supposed [16:51] to. Is that what she said? That makes me [16:54] think about, you know, Big Mouth Chris [16:57] saying and Bill, her her father-in-law. [17:00] I remember when they did that apology [17:02] video and I was like, did Legal let this [17:04] happen? Oh my gosh, legal let it happen. [17:07] No, I don't think legal let it happen. [17:09] Let's go back. [17:11] >> And for me, the tough part of people [17:14] only hear [17:17] one side of the story. they only hear [17:19] what someone who wasn't even connected [17:21] to the experience is saying about it or [17:24] what they've heard or oftentimes it's [17:26] just one side of the story that is [17:28] broadcasted and that's really painful. I [17:31] don't know about you but if I was [17:33] accused of something I would really hope [17:35] that there would be two sides of the [17:38] story heard by the world and not just [17:40] one not just mine not just someone [17:42] else's but both. It was interesting [17:44] because I've been really studying judges [17:46] this past year, really just in judges. [17:48] And the Lord had me just kind of calming [17:50] over it, learning, you know, justice and [17:52] judges. And oftentimes in social media [17:55] era, it's pretty wild because oftentimes [17:57] whoever is the loudest and the broadest, [18:00] that's what gets the attention. And [18:01] oftentimes the other sides of the story [18:03] are not heard. And so, um, I'm not in [18:06] any way belittling the situation or [18:09] saying that there's no one, you know, [18:11] that's, um, innocent in these [18:14] situations. However, I do think that [18:16] it's a pretty impossible situation we [18:19] live in to can our entire emotion as [18:21] humans around something that we're [18:23] hearing on the internet that is again [18:25] only from one side of the conversation. [18:27] So, these need to go to a legal court [18:29] and they need to be processed and [18:31] weighed and tried and details matter. [18:33] And so, but a lot [18:35] >> and details matter and they need to be [18:37] tried. And so, [18:41] yeah, if it gets to court or maybe [18:44] there'll be a settlement out of court. [18:46] So, you know, here again, because we [18:48] hear this all the time, oh, just let the [18:50] courts handle it. There's a lot of cases [18:51] that don't go to court. That doesn't [18:54] mean that you don't talk about it. [18:56] >> These things, that's where they are. We [18:58] spoke earlier that we are not going to [19:00] be speaking about specific things which [19:02] we spoke about more than we were [19:04] supposed to. But [19:05] >> I think that they got slapped by their [19:07] attorneys. I mean if I that's the first [19:09] thing I thought of when I heard that [19:12] apology. I was like where is their [19:14] attorneys? Did their attorneys allow [19:16] them? And I I suspect that they they got [19:20] slapped. [19:21] >> Legally these things are going to be [19:23] processed in private court with both [19:25] sides of the story and all the details. [19:26] I think that's important as humans that [19:28] we can't ever side with just something [19:30] that we hear from one side of the fence. [19:32] It needs to be processed legally. [19:34] Probably in a lot of [19:35] >> No, it doesn't. It doesn't need to be [19:37] processed legally because most of these [19:40] issues do not go to a legal court as [19:43] opposed to an unleal court, Jen. [19:46] So, that's not how it works and it's not [19:50] your decision as to who talks about it [19:53] and what said. Now, you guys made the [19:55] dumb decision because you're a bunch of [19:57] dummies and you decided to talk about [20:00] things that are going to be used against [20:01] you in court. Yes, absolutely they will [20:05] be. [20:06] So, yeah, she admits that. So, I I think [20:09] that that's very interesting. They cut [20:10] this out and [20:13] she seems like she just runs her mouth a [20:15] lot. I don't know. Does somebody know [20:16] her and they can tell me that that's the [20:18] type of person she gives me that [20:19] impression? She just is a mouth runner. [20:22] these situations and it's unfortunate [20:24] there are a lot of failures in [20:26] leadership and I think the tough thing [20:28] for me is that I've been a leader now [20:31] for 27 years and I'm not [20:33] >> okay she's been let's do the math [20:35] because she says that she's 43 years old [20:39] 43 minus 27 she's been a leader since 16 [20:45] somebody in the comments tell me if you [20:46] know her and that she's been a leader [20:47] for 16 years do I believe her No. Nope. [20:51] I don't. I just don't. She does not have [20:54] the ring of truth about her. There's [20:57] nothing about her that seems credible to [20:59] me. Especially when she's talking about [21:01] this. Well, even before it, even in the [21:04] the stuff when she was talking about the [21:05] theology and she's, you know, talking [21:07] about, well, you know, surfing is not in [21:09] the Bible, but it's holy and it should [21:11] be. And I'm I'm just saying it making [21:13] fun of it, but it was just very, very [21:15] disturbing. and she says she's not a [21:16] theologian, but she's trying to answer [21:19] questions theologically. [21:21] Maybe she should just bow out of that [21:23] part. But, you know, um [21:27] could she have been a leader at 16? [21:28] Sure. Was she a leader at 16? [21:32] I don't know. Perfect. And I've made [21:35] mistakes in my past and present. I will [21:37] again in the future. By the grace of [21:39] God, they will not be big massive [21:42] things. You know, we all have s. We have [21:44] all fallen short. They do this a lot. [21:46] All of us have sinned. We've all fallen [21:48] short. There's different degrees of sin [21:50] and crimes and all that that in our [21:52] structure in the legal structure. If you [21:55] want to lie somebody, this is what the [21:58] punishment is. If you steal a pack of [22:00] gum, the punishment's down here. [22:03] So, yes, we know that sin is sin is sin. [22:06] But there's consequences [22:08] to certain acts, bad acts, sins, and [22:12] they like to lump everything together to [22:14] make it seem like, oh well, you know, [22:16] you can't judge that person because you [22:18] sin, too. You know, it it doesn't work [22:21] like that. That's not realistic. [22:25] I don't think that that's God-honoring. [22:27] I don't think that's being obedient. I [22:29] just don't think that that's the way [22:30] that Jesus would want us. [22:33] who's cast the first stone. And so I [22:36] think there's a lot of difficult things [22:37] that people are trying to accomplish on. [22:40] >> They say all the time, cast the first [22:41] stone. And so this is their mantra. [22:46] And in the context of what has been [22:49] going on, what's been going on? Well, [22:51] the whole Bethl scandal and you have [22:54] Chris Bellatin and Bill Johnson getting [22:56] on stage sincerely apologizing. [23:01] And so what we've done is we we're [23:03] watching to see if it's sincere. So they [23:07] decide, well, we need somebody out [23:10] there. We need we need a representative. [23:12] We need to spew some propaganda. Who can [23:14] we get? And Jen's like, pick me. Pick [23:17] me. And so here she is. But then it just [23:19] didn't work out, you know, two days [23:21] later. And so they cut that portion out. [23:24] It's very disturbing and and it's very [23:27] telling about their heart. You know, [23:29] that they're all about it. God knows our [23:31] heart. I want to know the heart of my [23:33] kids. That's what she's talking about. [23:34] Well, we can tell your heart by what [23:36] you've done. And there's no reason for [23:38] you to have taken that portion out of [23:40] that video other than, you know, you [23:42] screwed up again. Yeah, your attorney [23:44] probably slapped you again on the [23:46] internet need to happen again, like Paul [23:49] said, face to face and need to be tried [23:51] and executed and processed in court and [23:54] not just opinions flying around on the [23:56] internet. So, it really is difficult. [23:58] Obviously, there's just some situations [24:00] that take time for all the truth to come [24:02] out. And there are some people who just [24:05] want to ruin people's lives. And right [24:08] in Why don't you say who you're talking [24:10] about? There's some people that just [24:12] want to ruin people's lives. Are you [24:15] saying that the survivors are trying to [24:18] ruin the lives of your buddy Ben [24:20] Armstrong and you just you just can't [24:23] have it? Where where is Sarah in all of [24:26] this? Where is any of the survivors in [24:30] this? Ros [24:32] Jubilee, [24:34] the young man, I think his name was [24:35] Elijah, [24:38] the survivor who who was prophesied [24:41] prophesied who took the prophecy of [24:43] Shawn BS. I mean, there's and there's [24:45] many others. I mean, people are reaching [24:47] out to me all the time. So, she doesn't [24:50] mention them, but it's just her buddies. [24:53] It's just her buddies. You know, they're [24:55] getting the bad end of the stick. [25:00] The middle of that, you have intense, [25:01] terrible stuff that is to people that [25:04] are victims at the same time. Movie [25:06] called The Help. And I don't like to [25:08] endorse movies, but there's a very [25:10] important scene in the movie called The [25:11] Help, but she's making a pie, a [25:13] chocolate pie. She mixes in poop into [25:16] that. You can't tell who from you know [25:20] revelation says the spirit of the [25:22] accuser [25:24] >> is she calling [25:27] the people podcasters and whistleblowers [25:30] and survivors [25:33] poop [25:36] is is that what she's calling us [25:38] >> revelation revelation is a pretty [25:40] intense book the accuser the brethren [25:43] spirit I think is mixed in a lot very [25:46] legitimate things that have not been [25:48] okay, have not been acceptable, and they [25:51] need to be processed and tried. And [25:54] >> so what she's suggesting is that so [25:58] let's take Sarah for example, very [26:00] credible. She shared her story. So she's [26:03] saying that there's a accuser of the [26:06] brethren spirit that's mixed in with [26:07] that and that it needs to be tried. No, [26:11] it doesn't, Jen. Not everything needs to [26:13] be tried. Just because you say it [26:15] doesn't make it so. And that's not how [26:17] it works. But, you know, it's their [26:20] world and they think that they know [26:22] everything. I get it. So, that's [26:26] what about [26:29] what any survivor that comes forward, [26:31] what about what they say [26:34] is it that she should just call it out [26:36] so that we we're clear because what I'm [26:38] doing is I'm speculating. I don't really [26:40] know what she's talking about because [26:41] she's not saying it. And they do this [26:44] on purpose, [26:46] right? They just try to lump it all in. [26:49] They're vague. They throw out these [26:52] large vagaries [26:55] over and over again. And it really does [26:57] confuse the masses because they'll spit [26:59] some, you know, scripture in there like [27:01] whoever throws the the first stone. Oh, [27:03] yeah. Yeah. And then they grab onto [27:04] that. But that's not really what's going [27:06] on here at all. People like Sarah Ros, [27:10] any of them, any of the survivors, Cindy [27:12] Clemenar, they have a right to speak. [27:15] And if you don't like it, don't listen. [27:18] Period. It's just like watching a video. [27:21] If you don't like what the person's [27:22] saying, [27:24] move on. [27:26] Do you really think that the podcaster [27:28] cares that that you don't like what [27:31] they're saying? They don't. [27:33] Do you ever see a podcaster saying, "Oh [27:35] my gosh, you said that you don't like my [27:37] video. Well, I'm shutting it all down [27:39] because I've been waiting for you to let [27:41] me know whether you like it or not [27:43] because everything hinges on what you [27:45] think. It doesn't work that way. So, [27:48] that's my rant. [27:50] >> There needs to be actual godly justice, [27:52] which is a much bigger thing than [27:54] someone just giving their opinion or [27:55] pulling off the internet. But we just [27:57] need to be very careful what we [27:59] >> What's the godly justice? Is it the [28:00] unlegal court or the legal court? I I'm [28:03] not sure what it is. believe as [28:05] Christians that we're not just hearing a [28:07] little details and forming our opinion [28:08] around that, but really we would [28:10] >> little details. The things that she [28:12] says, little details minimizing [28:16] what the survivors say. Can you this is [28:18] horrendous [28:22] and I've I've talked to Sarah so this is [28:25] absolutely horrendous. [28:27] Absolutely disgusting. [28:30] all want that the story on both the [28:33] accused and the accuser and both sides [28:35] would be heard process. I think that's [28:37] what we would all want to happen if we [28:39] were accused of something. [28:40] >> That's a good point. And it's [28:41] interesting that [28:48] >> so he's being accused of something. If [28:50] it didn't have teeth, why did you take [28:53] Ben Armstrong Strong off the um [29:00] the administration, [29:02] leadership team, whatever it does is he [29:05] does. Why was he removed? Why was he [29:09] placed on administrative leave? [29:14] If there's another side of the story [29:16] that we don't know, why haven't you [29:17] shared it? because you guys are very [29:19] good at sharing stuff that you shouldn't [29:21] be sharing from the pulpit. But see, [29:24] this is sword and shield because what [29:26] they're doing is they're um they're [29:29] putting out with the sword, well, we're [29:31] we're not supposed to say anything [29:32] anymore. Well, you already did. You [29:33] already opened your mouths and you [29:34] opened them up very very wide and a lot [29:37] of stupid stuff came out. So, and then [29:40] it's like, oh no, I can't say. I got to [29:42] do it in generalized. I'm not supposed [29:43] to say anything. So, it's the shield, [29:45] you know? It's got to go to court. [29:48] No, no. We don't have to wait on you [29:53] to talk. The victims, the survivors, [29:56] they don't have to wait on you to talk. [29:59] But this is She wants to get They want [30:01] to get their propaganda out. And for [30:02] whatever reason, they're using her to do [30:04] it on this day. But then they've [30:07] retracted it. They figured out she [30:09] wasn't the right one. [30:12] She really didn't get the assignment. [30:16] I don't know. [30:18] You know, back when Paulian [30:20] church, cast that guy out of the church. [30:22] He's in sin, horrible sin, worse than [30:24] the pagans, and give his body over, hand [30:26] him over to Satan. Right. That was [30:29] >> Yeah. intense and executing church [30:31] discipline very clearly, like you said, [30:34] justice uh being done. However, that was [30:37] Paul talking to his group of people that [30:40] he knew. Whereas the interesting thing [30:42] you brought up is now everybody's [30:44] looking at all of these other churches [30:46] and kind of throwing their opinions at [30:48] those churches. Whereas what really [30:50] should be happening is the hopefully [30:52] godly leaders of that particular church [30:54] needs to have that hard hand of justice [30:56] in the situation and hopefully they're [30:58] truly being obedient to God and doing [31:00] the right thing. [31:01] >> Oh, wouldn't that be great? But that's [31:02] not what's happening. This guy must live [31:04] in a hole. [31:05] But the interesting thing now is like [31:07] you said the spirit of accusation of the [31:09] accuser of the brethren is kind of [31:11] coming from the outside of the church [31:13] where the situation [31:14] >> you can't see it but she's like flipping [31:15] her hair as he's talking she's just so [31:17] casual. It's like really disturbing. You [31:19] got to watch Well, you're not going to [31:21] be able to see this unless you [31:22] downloaded it. But even in the [31:24] beginning, like the part that's there [31:26] now, she's just very very casual. Um [31:31] you can make your own decision, but [31:32] that's mine [31:32] >> is better known. But yeah, I guess it [31:34] makes me want to make sure that the [31:36] leadership of every church is actually [31:38] listening to God and doing the right [31:39] thing and not just kind of glossing over [31:42] or missing. But anyway, it's a very, [31:44] like I said, very complicated situation. [31:46] >> It is. And and you know, there with with [31:48] being a leader, you know, there's a lot [31:49] that's happening that we can't and don't [31:52] want to talk about on public, especially [31:55] when discipline is happening. When [31:56] someone does something wrong, the thing [31:59] I know to be very true is that they deal [32:01] with it and they [32:04] You know, one of the main accused people [32:06] was not even on our staff. It was just [32:08] some [32:08] >> really they deal with it wasn't even on [32:13] our staff. [32:15] Oh, she talks about him as a guest [32:17] >> who was a guest at conferences and [32:20] again, [32:21] >> okay, says the girl. So, so the the [32:24] guest is Sean BS, [32:28] who I guess Bill Johnson will just go on [32:31] tn with a guest to promote the book. So, [32:35] any of you guests out there that are [32:38] going to Bethl, you don't have to be a [32:40] good friend. You can just be a guest and [32:42] you can get that kind of treatment. [32:44] Apparently, I doubt that that's the [32:46] case, but this is the, you know, now [32:49] it's arms length. there's going to be a [32:52] lot of space between us and him and and [32:55] it's just it's disingenuous. We already [32:58] know what the relationship was because [33:02] there's video of it on the internet that [33:05] I'm sure you hate exists, but it's [33:07] there. And so we all see that Bill [33:10] Johnson endorsed Shawn BS, but she's [33:12] going to call him. He wasn't even part [33:14] of our staff. He was just a guest. [33:18] We have no responsibility. How can you [33:20] possibly Oh, don't get me started. [33:24] >> Didn't even have to go out of their way [33:26] to be the disciplinary and to confront [33:29] and they didn't even have to do that [33:31] because even [33:34] commend that they actually did that. [33:37] >> She's such a cheerleader for them. It's [33:39] the propaganda. They didn't even have to [33:41] do that. But I commend them because they [33:43] did like nine years later. It's [33:46] ridiculous. [33:47] >> It really has. to your point earlier, [33:48] have it changed you? Yes, these [33:50] situations have changed us as a church [33:53] for sure because we [33:55] >> how how don't just say it, prove it. How [33:59] how has it changed you as a church? Go [34:02] ahead and tell us. [34:04] She won't [34:05] >> are much more aware when we empower [34:08] someone on a more global stage that we [34:11] actually then need to carry the [34:13] responsibility and weight of if that [34:15] person goes off and is not the person [34:17] that we had originally endorsed if their [34:22] choices or their sin has now taken them [34:24] from the position that we enthrone them. [34:26] I know it's an intense phrase only Jesus [34:28] is enthroned but placed them in a form [34:31] of leadership and we actually do need to [34:34] I get it. I'd be embarrassed, too. You [34:36] had to cut her out. I I bet just [34:38] imagine. [34:40] What are you talking about? [34:43] Get rid of that video. [34:45] >> Be pastors. And even though they're not [34:47] on our we actually do need to care for [34:49] the sheep. And if someone feels like [34:51] they're a wolf, we need to, you know, be [34:53] more mindful of that. And it's very hard [34:55] because these people are our friends. [34:57] And so, again, you don't [34:59] >> we're friends with these wolves. So, [35:00] it's really, really hard. It's hard for [35:02] us. Can you just please cut us a break? [35:07] I know I'm just being very very snarky [35:10] >> to just all of a sudden just get on a [35:12] platform and say that hey this person's [35:14] a wolf. But it did take time and [35:15] prosecution to even figure out that it [35:18] wasn't just [35:18] >> prosecution. They're the government now. [35:22] She's something else. [35:22] >> One claim or two claims. Oh, it was [35:24] multiple claims. Okay. Yeah. This has [35:26] gotten to a place where we need to now [35:27] talk about this even though they're not [35:29] on our step. So it kind of brings up a [35:31] bigger question, [35:32] >> but that's not what was done. They were [35:34] forced to do it because of Mike Winger's [35:36] video. So she's acting as if that's what [35:39] they do. That's what they've done. We [35:41] already know that's not what they do. [35:44] >> Does every church like now have to get [35:47] up on a stage where someone does [35:48] something with their life that's [35:49] unacceptable? Like is that now what we [35:51] all do? [35:52] >> Now what we do, it should have been done [35:55] all along. What makes you think that you [35:58] can carry that responsibility as a [36:00] leader that you claim yourself to be [36:02] since you were 16 [36:05] and not follow the rules of a leader? [36:10] Yeah, that is exactly what you're [36:12] supposed to do. And and she's just [36:14] proving it right there. She has no [36:16] business in leadership. [36:19] None. And neither does her [36:22] father-in-law. [36:24] No business. They have no idea what [36:26] they're doing. [36:27] >> Decided that that is if we're gonna give [36:29] someone a global stage and they decide [36:31] to turn into a different person or be [36:33] unrepentant especially then we're going [36:35] to get up and talk about it. Now that's [36:36] very different situation than the other [36:38] situations when you have someone who's [36:40] accused of something from a very long [36:41] time. [36:42] >> So you have to define what's repentant [36:43] because we already went through the [36:45] whole Ben Armstrong thing where [36:48] allegedly he repented for what he did [36:50] but he didn't repent for what he did. He [36:54] repented falsely. It was false [36:58] repentance. He has not yet repented for [37:02] what he did. And so for these people, [37:04] based upon what she's saying, that's [37:06] good enough. False repentance is good [37:09] enough for us. [37:15] Oh, you have that. Now people are like, [37:17] oh, you know, what did you do about it? [37:19] If you read anything about the situation [37:21] of people who have been on our staff, [37:24] they were corrected. They were repented. [37:26] They did walk it out. And so obviously [37:29] there is a main situation that's being [37:30] processed in court because one story is [37:33] now a bit different than the original [37:35] story. And again, we're not going to [37:36] talk about details of that, but it's [37:38] >> sword and shield. So she throws about [37:40] enough out there as a sword. I'm gonna [37:42] stick you. But then we're not going to [37:43] talk about that. No, no, no. We're being [37:45] told our our council's telling us not [37:48] to. And so what she's talking about is [37:50] Sarah's situation and and [37:55] suggesting that the story is different. [37:57] No, Sarah. So the clearly these people [38:01] have no knowledge [38:04] of what it means to be a victim of a [38:06] crime, particularly an essay. They have [38:10] no idea what they're talking about. They [38:14] should not be in ministry because if you [38:16] if you're in ministry, this is going to [38:18] happen. Especially one where you have [38:19] all of these people bragging about how [38:21] big your ministry is and you don't even [38:23] have one trauma-informed person there. [38:25] Shame on you. You shouldn't be [38:28] operating in an alleged ministry. You're [38:31] not a brilliant ministry. We know that. [38:33] So, [38:35] you're trying to suggest [38:38] to viewers, this is the person that's [38:41] saying, "Oh, you don't want to listen to [38:43] one side." She's giving her side. That's [38:46] exactly what she's doing. She's giving [38:49] her side, but telling you, "Oh, no. You [38:52] can't listen to anybody on social media [38:54] who's only giving one side." That's what [38:55] she's doing. She'll give you just a [38:58] little bit, you know, trying to [39:01] to do the work as the rep chosen [39:03] representative for Bethl. But oh, I'm [39:06] going to pull back because, you know, [39:07] we're not supposed to say that stuff. [39:12] Dishonest. Disgusting. [39:17] It's really disgusting. [39:20] >> It's going to be processed. The two [39:22] sides of the story been shaken down with [39:24] receipts and time stamps to bring [39:26] accuracy. [39:27] >> Oh, and about that about Oh, a different [39:28] side of the story. No, what happens when [39:31] when victims process is they realize [39:35] over time what happened to them and [39:38] that's what happened to Sarah over time. [39:42] You know, she had to deal with it. She [39:43] had to deal with all the lies and [39:45] defamation. [39:48] She had to deal with that for 16 years. [39:52] And so [39:54] now [39:56] this [39:58] person is saying, "And now the story is [40:01] different." She doesn't want to talk [40:02] about it, right? But she's tell she's [40:05] putting that out there, [40:08] saying, "Oh, there's a different story." [40:10] No, it's just a realization of what [40:12] happened. [40:14] I would hate to be one of her daughters [40:16] and something happens like that and oo [40:19] the perpetrator is someone she loves and [40:21] she knows their heart and they're part [40:22] of their I can't even imagine. I've seen [40:25] it because I've been a prosecutor and I [40:27] specialize in sex crimes against [40:29] children and I've seen that [40:32] and these people fit that bill. They [40:35] don't care. They don't care. Inherent in [40:39] in leadership at a church would be [40:41] caring for people. These people are the [40:44] exact opposite of that. So they have no [40:46] business being there. So there's no uh [40:49] different story coming out now. Sarah's [40:52] truth is her truth and it always has [40:53] been when it comes out of the mouth of [40:56] somebody processing this is what it [40:58] looks like. [41:00] This is what it looks like. [41:03] So people that are out there watching, [41:05] listening, I'm not telling you what to [41:08] listen to. I'm going to tell you what my [41:09] thoughts are because that's what I do on [41:12] this channel. These are my impressions. [41:14] These are my opinions. I have a right to [41:16] them [41:17] and she has a right to hers. But she's [41:19] telling I'm not saying don't go out [41:22] there and talk. I'm actually saying go [41:23] ahead and talk. But they won't. Go ahead [41:26] and and contact me, Ben Armstrong. I've [41:29] invited you before. Contact me. You You [41:31] keep screaming through your propaganda [41:33] girl over here to tell your story. Tell [41:37] your story. tell it to me, [41:40] but he won't contact me [41:42] >> those allegations. And so again, that's [41:44] the best we can do. But the best part [41:45] about that story is it was repented for [41:47] and it was walked out really [41:49] beautifully. 16 years. [41:50] >> Oh, beautifully as laid out in that [41:53] pathetic book, Unpunishable, you know, [41:55] the one defaming Sarah. That that false [41:59] repentance was walked out really [42:01] beautifully. You know this, she just [42:04] annihilated everything that Bill and [42:07] Chris tried to do that day when they [42:10] tried to say sorry. She just annihilated [42:12] that. I wonder if they knew that she was [42:15] doing that. Maybe that's why she's [42:17] hiding in her car ago. And so I think [42:20] that yeah, it's a mixed bag of [42:22] leadership when we're doing our best. [42:24] But I do stand behind even though they [42:26] haven't done it perfectly and again [42:28] there was a lot of things they would do [42:29] differently now as a staff of our [42:30] leadership team. what we have learned [42:32] and what we have come to. They are a [42:34] very trusted, beautiful group of humans [42:36] that are leading Bible church. It's not [42:38] >> I want to throw up. So again, [42:40] propaganda, she's out there and she's [42:43] the forefront and she's telling people [42:45] these trusted, beautiful leadership. [42:51] That's one side of the story. And it's [42:54] okay for her to do it. It's really [42:56] disgusting. I hope you guys can see [42:58] this. It's really [43:00] >> nasty. nasty group of 15 on the senior [43:04] leadership team and they're working [43:06] together. Their desire for holiness is [43:08] really really beautiful. We don't let [43:11] anything [43:11] >> not beautiful. Oh, we don't let anything [43:13] slip under the carpet. Oh, we just [43:15] watched it all before our very eyes. I [43:17] guess, oh, you didn't see anything. [43:19] They're telling us what we see now, [43:21] right? You didn't really see anything. [43:23] There was nothing to see here. Move on. [43:25] >> To the best of our ability, I'm not on [43:26] the senior leadership team. I run music [43:28] which is a separate organization that [43:30] that serves obviously a local church [43:32] that God has called us to. Again, God [43:35] called me to serve at Memphis 27 years [43:37] ago, not because who was leading it, but [43:39] because it was a move of God and it was [43:41] a holy people and in a church and a [43:43] movement. [43:43] >> So, she was called there at 16. And then [43:45] she also says she was a leader at 16. [43:47] Was she? Was she? [43:49] >> Yeah. I don't think it's perfect. I [43:51] don't agree with every single thing [43:52] that's ever been said from Bethl, but I [43:55] do believe in the work and the movement [43:56] that God is doing. And that's why I'm [43:58] there week in and week out on the front [44:00] row. It's for the people of God and the [44:02] move of God. And I'm very [44:04] >> You're not there for the people of God. [44:05] The people of God also include the [44:08] wounded, the ones that have been [44:10] oppressed and abused. You are not there [44:12] for the people of God. Liar. [44:14] >> The character of the leadership as a [44:16] whole of the church, even though they're [44:18] not perfect. I don't envy the situation [44:20] you guys are in. You said multiple [44:21] times, we're doing the best we can. And [44:23] you guys are like probably the only ones [44:25] moving into this uncharted territory and [44:27] figuring it out as you go. [44:29] >> Of course. [44:30] >> Does this guy live under a rock? He [44:32] doesn't know that there's other [44:33] scandals. What is going on here? [44:35] >> You learn as you go forward into [44:37] uncharted territory and then you look [44:39] back and say, "Next time I'm going to do [44:41] it differently." Right? And so that's [44:42] kind of a lot of what it sounds like. [44:43] But they're not they're not learning [44:45] because we just had the example two [44:46] months ago of the alleged uh you know I [44:49] apologize and then you got her on here. [44:51] So they're not learning as they go [44:53] whatsoever. [44:54] >> My story is Yeah. [44:56] >> Absolutely. And I don't know if you [44:57] watched the Sunday from a few weeks ago [44:59] where my father bought the associate [45:00] pastor and the teaching pastor and [45:03] genuinely in these past few months we [45:06] have seen and heard the testimonies and [45:08] really had to reconcile because we [45:10] didn't know this stuff. Like I didn't [45:11] know this stuff. you from afar and you [45:14] heard things and things were confronted, [45:15] but a lot of the details [45:17] >> this is really vague. I don't I I I [45:19] don't I can't really comment because I [45:21] if she's talking about just the scandals [45:23] and everything I mean I I don't know if [45:25] she knew it or not so I can't really say [45:28] >> are new and so [45:29] >> but they're not new. We know they're not [45:31] new to the to Bill and to Chris but [45:34] she's trying to suggest that it is to [45:36] her. I don't know. But we already know [45:38] it's not new to Chris and Bill because [45:40] we have the receipts [45:42] >> to the best of their ability. They have [45:44] done what they were supposed to do and [45:48] learned and grown and repented that they [45:50] didn't speak out earlier and now see [45:52] that they should have things like that. [45:54] It's a really it's a lot. It's hard and [45:55] it's against your friend and so it's a [45:57] mixed bag. But [45:58] >> she kept saying it's against your friend [46:00] as if that matters. So you got your [46:04] friend on this hand and then the sheep [46:06] that you're pastoring. Well, they're [46:09] clearly saying it's going to, you know, [46:11] it's my friend. My friend over you, [46:16] the one that's been sewing seeds of [46:18] $1,000 [46:20] every Tuesday. [46:22] You know what I'm saying? That's what [46:24] it's about. [46:25] >> I do know their hearts before God to be [46:27] holy and pure and Christlike and [46:29] accountable. And you really do see that [46:31] in that moment of saying we missed it [46:34] and we're really sorry not only on this [46:36] but what the world is. [46:37] >> No, they are not because she's here. [46:40] She's here doing this. And if they knew [46:42] that she was doing this, they are not [46:44] repentant. [46:45] You've just circled them way back and [46:48] annihilated anything that they could [46:50] have possibly done. even though you know [46:52] it really doesn't show much fruit but [46:54] she annihilated and negated all of that [46:59] >> repented to the world but has repented [47:00] to his kids even and his grandchildren [47:03] for ways that he's missed it. So there [47:04] really is a humble heart in this [47:06] leadership team that you trust. [47:09] >> Thank you. Okay, let's move into our [47:10] last little pillar and then I definitely [47:12] want to give you a chance to share your [47:13] heart with worship leaders. But I know [47:15] one of the things [47:16] >> I can't take anymore. All right. So, I [47:17] wanted to get to the last part and it's [47:19] already 47 minutes and I didn't want to [47:21] go over an hour. What I wanted to get to [47:23] is at the end she says there's 10 more [47:26] minutes and I just can't deal with it. [47:28] So, I'm stopping it. In the end, she's [47:30] talking about she's sharing her heart [47:32] and she talks about how she wrote a song [47:34] about being mad at God because her [47:37] mother-in-law died. [47:39] And I find that really interesting [47:41] because, you know, they're entitled to [47:44] their um opinions and writing the songs [47:47] and their her lyrics and all of that [47:49] stuff. I find it very fascinating and um [47:53] they've got some serious arrogance [47:54] because, you know, she's entitled to be [47:58] angry at God because her mother-in-law [48:01] was taken away, [48:04] died of cancer. Um which we would expect [48:07] somebody to [48:09] end up with if they if they're not, you [48:11] know, that happens with cancer [48:13] sometimes, right? Sometimes it doesn't [48:15] go into remission. So, but but think [48:18] about the fact that there's these [48:20] wounded ones, the survivors. [48:24] She's not mad at God [48:27] about what's happened to them. [48:31] Not at all. She's mad at God because it [48:35] affected her life that her husband's [48:38] mother was taken. So, she wrote a song [48:43] and it's really disturbing [48:45] because when you look at it, not once [48:48] did she mention any survivor. She never [48:51] mentioned Sarah. And she was throwing [48:52] stuff out there. She could have very [48:53] easily said something, but she was [48:56] completely on a mission. Her agenda was [48:59] to make sure that she was going to get [49:01] her jabs in [49:03] all the while saying, "You shouldn't be [49:05] on social media and listening to one [49:07] side, but listen to my one side. That's [49:09] what she was doing here. [49:12] Horrible, horrible human being. [49:16] Don't tell me that she has a good [49:18] heart." Don't come on here onto my [49:19] channel and say, "Oh, I know Jen." No, [49:22] we all know her. We saw that. We heard [49:24] Well, you heard it. I've watched it. And [49:26] hopefully you have seen it before. [49:27] before they cut it out. Why did they cut [49:29] it out? If you know her, ask her, "Why [49:31] did you cut that out? Why didn't you go [49:32] on there and say those things that you [49:34] said? Why didn't you talk about the [49:36] survivors? Why didn't you write a song [49:41] about the survivors?" Jen, [49:47] doesn't Jesus have a heart for the [49:49] survivors? [49:53] What do you think?  📄 **Full text:** ![[Full Document Contents/Articles/Bethel Scandal - Jenn Johnson When Propaganda Fails|Bethel Scandal - Jenn Johnson: When Propaganda Fails, YouTube]] ## Highlights - that would be the podcasters. I think she's talking about us. But here's the thing. Sarah has been on a couple of podcasts and she has shared her heart. So are you saying that Sarah doesn't even know her own experience? you're quite dumb. >> One side of the story that is broadcasted and that's really painful. I don't know about you, but if I was accused of something, I would really hope that there would be two sides of the story heard by the world and not just one, not just ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwwbd53xjdvn05s6100rgnv)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - She's This is what she's saying. You should hear the other side. Okay, Ben. come on my channel, let me hear your side of the story. >> Um, I'm not in any way belittling the situation or saying that there's no one, you know, that's um, innocent in these situations. However, I do think that it's a pretty impossible situation we live in to camp our entire emotion as humans around something that we're hearing on the internet is again only ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwwbd64w9dmwt0dwwse8ks0)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - The middle of that, you have intense, terrible stuff that is to people that are victims at the same time. Movie called The Help. And I don't like to endorse movies, but there's a very important scene in the movie called The Help, but she's making a pie, a chocolate pie. She mixes in poop into that. You can't tell who from you know revelation says the spirit of the accuser >> is she calling the people podcasters and whistleblowers ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwwbd7z76vawtz0rrs84n9w)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - credible. She shared her story. So she's saying that there's a accuser of the brethren spirit that's mixed in with that and that it needs to be tried. No, it doesn't, Jen. Not everything needs to be tried. Just because you say it doesn't make it so. And that's not how it works. But, you know, it's their world and they think that they know everything. I get it. So, that's what about what any survivor that comes forward, ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwwbdagvn135079wxjz4x6z)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - unlegal court or the legal court? I I'm not sure what it is. believe as Christians that we're not just hearing a little details and forming our opinion around that, but really we would >> little details. The things that she says, little details minimizing what the survivors say. Can you this is horrendous and I've I've talked to Sarah so this is absolutely horrendous. Absolutely disgusting. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwwbde6x3qp6rpq52x3sgs3)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - the right thing. >> Oh, wouldn't that be great? But that's not what's happening. This guy must live in a hole. But the interesting thing now is like you said the spirit of accusation of the accuser of the brethren is kind of coming from the outside of the church where the situation >> you can't see it but she's like flipping her hair as he's talking she's just so casual. It's like really disturbing. You got to watch Well, you're not going to be able to see this unless you downloaded it. But even in the beginning, like the part that's there now, she's just very very casual. Um ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwwbdnj1f0fkhvapyar1gz0)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - bigger question, >> but that's not what was done. They were forced to do it because of Mike Winger's video. So she's acting as if that's what they do. That's what they've done. We already know that's not what they do. >> Does every church like now have to get up on a stage where someone does something with their life that's unacceptable? Like is that now what we all do? >> Now what we do, it should have been done all along. What makes you think that you can carry that responsibility as a ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwwbdsrmz5cfn5j0kzes7j5)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - and these people fit that bill. They don't care. They don't care. Inherent in in leadership at a church would be caring for people. These people are the exact opposite of that. So they have no business being there. So there's no uh different story coming out now. Sarah's truth is her truth and it always has been when it comes out of the mouth of somebody processing this is what it looks like. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwwbe2ejqdmrv83jc07mmhq)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - leadership team. what we have learned and what we have come to. They are a very trusted, beautiful group of humans that are leading Bible church. It's not >> I want to throw up. So again, propaganda, she's out there and she's the forefront and she's telling people these trusted, beautiful leadership. That's one side of the story. And it's okay for her to do it. It's really disgusting. I hope you guys can see this. It's really ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwwbea0fs327d8qnkad0747)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - pastor and the teaching pastor and genuinely in these past few months we have seen and heard the testimonies and really had to reconcile because we didn't know this stuff. Like I didn't know this stuff. you from afar and you heard things and things were confronted, but a lot of the details >> this is really vague. I don't I I I don't I can't really comment because I if she's talking about just the scandals and everything I mean I I don't know if she knew it or not so I can't really say >> are new and so >> but they're not new. We know they're not ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwwbeg7ptqt6mpnj69nrmqz)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted