Bethel Scandal Sarah Sets the Record Straight

Bethel Scandal: Sarah Sets the Record Straight ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/3ie9l-4m03E/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [Bethel Scandal: Sarah Sets the Record Straight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ie9l-4m03E&t=1420s) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: #spiritual-abuse #bethel-church #sexual-misconduct #religious-trauma #whistleblower-protection > author: [Content Creator Name] > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ie9l-4m03E&t=1420s > date created: 2024-12-19 14:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: Bethel Scandal: Sarah sets the record straight >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Create trauma-informed investigation protocols for religious institutions — institutional protection concerns #spiritual-abuse - [H2] Develop resources for spiritual abuse survivors — healing and validation needs #religious-trauma - [H3] Analyze institutional response patterns in abuse cases — accountability gaps #institutional-accountability ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [[#📝 Summary]] - [[#📖 Main Content]] - [[#🗒️ Notes]] - [[#📚 References]] - [[#🗣️ Paraphrase]] - [[#📰 Newsletter]] - [[#✅ Action Items]] - [[#🧪 Hypotheses]] - [[#📊 Methodology]] - [[#❓ Questions]] - [[#🔮 Future Research]] - [[#💡 Implications]] - [[#🧠 Learning Styles Assessment]] - [[#📊 Accessibility Assessment]] - [[#🌍 DEIB Assessment]] - [[#✅ Logical Validity]] - [[#🛡️ DARVO Analysis]] - [[#🎯 Conclusion]] ### 🔗 References - [Bethel Stories Community Platform](https://bethlstories.org) - [Wake Up and Win Podcast with Jubilee Dawn](URL) ## 📝 Summary - Sarah, a former BSSM intern, clarifies her account of abuse at Bethel Church and addresses institutional responses - Bethel leadership has not directly contacted Sarah despite public apology videos claiming desire for reconciliation - Multiple corroborating witnesses have come forward supporting Sarah's testimony - Investigation firm hired by Bethel lacks visible trauma-informed credentials or institutional accountability track record - Jen Johnson's video response demonstrates institutional protection over survivor care ## 📖 Main Content Sarah's testimony reveals systemic issues within Bethel Church's handling of abuse allegations. Despite public statements about wanting to "make things right," leadership has failed to directly contact survivors. The church's choice to have Richard Gordon, a technology officer described as Ben Armstrong's "good friend," reach out to Sarah demonstrates poor judgment in trauma-informed practices. Multiple witnesses have independently corroborated Sarah's account, including fellow interns who observed the inappropriate behavior and targeting. The spiritual grooming involved prophetic manipulation, where leaders used claimed divine insight to break down boundaries and create submission. The institutional response pattern shows classic organizational protection behaviors: minimizing survivor voices, emphasizing "both sides" narratives when facts aren't disputed, and hiring investigators without demonstrated expertise in religious institutional abuse. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/3ie9l-4m03E?t=0) — [H1] Sarah's legal representation and no direct contact from Bethel - Key idea: Despite public apology videos, Bethel leadership hasn't directly contacted Sarah - Evidence: "No, I haven't heard from anybody except for the email that I got from Richard Gordon" #### ⏱️ [05:23](https://youtu.be/3ie9l-4m03E?t=323) — [H2] Richard Gordon's inappropriate selection as contact person - Key idea: Bethel chose a male technology officer who is Ben Armstrong's "good friend" to contact abuse survivor - Evidence: "Let me introduce you to my good friend Richard Gordon" #### ⏱️ [12:45](https://youtu.be/3ie9l-4m03E?t=765) — [H3] Fellow intern corroboration of abuse patterns - Key idea: Another intern witnessed and experienced similar prophetic manipulation and targeting - Evidence: "Everything she says in her podcast is true. I watched it. I saw it all" #### ⏱️ [18:30](https://youtu.be/3ie9l-4m03E?t=1110) — [H2] Prophetic manipulation tactics described - Key idea: Ben Armstrong used prophetic claims to break down boundaries and create inappropriate intimacy - Evidence: "Ben sharing prophetic critiques of y'all's character or your emotional world" #### ⏱️ [25:15](https://youtu.be/3ie9l-4m03E?t=1515) — [H3] TikTok revelation about Ben Armstrong's previous pattern - Key idea: Former youth found Ben Armstrong on social media discussing similar targeting behaviors with teenagers - Evidence: "He felt singled out by Ben because he was the cool kid...Ben kind of targeted him" #### ⏱️ [32:40](https://youtu.be/3ie9l-4m03E?t=1960) — [H2] CRA Group investigation concerns - Key idea: Bethel's chosen investigation firm lacks visible trauma-informed credentials - Evidence: "I looked at their website...there's nothing on their website [about trauma-informed practices]" #### ⏱️ [45:20](https://youtu.be/3ie9l-4m03E?t=2720) — [H1] BethelStories.org community response - Key idea: Alumni created independent platform for abuse survivors due to institutional failures - Evidence: "PTSD, some even considered unaliving themselves as a result of the harm" #### ⏱️ [52:10](https://youtu.be/3ie9l-4m03E?t=3130) — [H3] Sarah's healing through speaking out - Key idea: Breaking silence has been therapeutically beneficial despite institutional resistance - Evidence: "The most important thing is that the fruit...I'm more open. I'm happier" #### ⏱️ [58:45](https://youtu.be/3ie9l-4m03E?t=3525) — [H2] Pattern recognition across multiple cases - Key idea: Sarah's story connected to broader pattern of clergy abuse she recognized in other cases - Evidence: "Started hearing people talk about clergy abuse and spiritual abuse" #### ⏱️ [65:30](https://youtu.be/3ie9l-4m03E?t=3930) — [H1] Jen Johnson's problematic response video - Key idea: Leadership family member prioritized protecting accused over supporting survivors - Evidence: "I know and love the people that are accused" #### ⏱️ [72:15](https://youtu.be/3ie9l-4m03E?t=4335) — [H3] "Both sides" narrative when facts aren't disputed - Key idea: Institutional response seeks to muddy clear abuse situations with false equivalency - Evidence: "There's no dispute as to what happened...He is saying it happened" #### ⏱️ [78:50](https://youtu.be/3ie9l-4m03E?t=4730) — [H2] Consent impossibility in spiritual authority relationships - Key idea: Power dynamics in spiritual relationships eliminate possibility of consent - Evidence: "There is no such thing as a consensual sexual relationship with your pastor" #### ⏱️ [85:20](https://youtu.be/3ie9l-4m03E?t=5120) — [H3] Internet dismissal while using internet platform - Key idea: Bethel dismisses survivor testimonies as "just internet" while building empire online - Evidence: "Their whole...empire...that's how you become so big and famous" ## 📚 References - [BethelStories.org](https://bethlstories.org) - [CRA Group Investigations](URL) - [Wake Up and Win Podcast](URL) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Sarah has engaged legal counsel and received no direct contact from Bethel leadership despite their public statements about reconciliation - Multiple independent witnesses corroborate Sarah's account of spiritual abuse and inappropriate targeting by Ben Armstrong - Bethel's institutional response shows pattern of protecting leadership over caring for survivors through poor investigation choices ## 📰 Newsletter **Bethel Survivor Speaks: Institutional Protection vs. Survivor Care** This week's spotlight on religious accountability reveals troubling patterns in how large ministries handle abuse allegations. Despite public apologies, direct survivor contact remains absent while investigation processes raise serious concerns about trauma-informed practices. Key learning: Authentic institutional repentance requires survivor-centered approaches, not protection of organizational reputation. The emergence of independent survivor communities like BethelStories.org demonstrates the critical need for safe spaces when institutions fail to provide them. Resources: [SNAP Network](https://snapnetwork.org/), [Faith Trust Institute](https://faithtrustinstitute.org/), [The Hope of Survivors](https://thehopeofsurvivors.com/) ## ✅ Action Items #### Community - Survivors: Document experiences, seek trauma-informed legal counsel, connect with survivor networks - Witnesses: Provide corroborating testimony when safe to do so - Community members: Support independent accountability platforms like BethelStories.org #### WordPress - Documentation: Create resource hubs for spiritual abuse survivors - Community: Develop moderation guidelines for sensitive abuse disclosure discussions #### FAIR - Technical independence: Verify investigation firm credentials and track records - Policies: Establish standards for trauma-informed institutional responses ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Religious institutions prioritize organizational protection over individual survivor care - Prophetic practices can be weaponized for psychological manipulation and boundary violation - Independent survivor communities form when institutional responses prove inadequate - Trauma-informed investigation protocols are essential for legitimate accountability processes ### 📊 Methodology - Case study analysis of institutional response patterns - Witness testimony correlation and verification - Investigation firm credential and track record assessment ### ❓ Questions - What standards should govern religious institutional abuse investigations? - How can survivor-centered approaches be mandated in religious organization policies? - What role should independent oversight play in religious accountability? ### 🔮 Future Research - Comparative analysis of religious institution abuse response protocols - Effectiveness study of trauma-informed vs. standard investigation approaches - Long-term impact assessment on survivors of different institutional response types ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Religious organizations need trauma-informed response protocols - Policy: Legal frameworks for religious authority relationships require strengthening - Security: Power dynamics in spiritual mentorship create inherent vulnerability - Education: Training on consent impossibility in authority relationships needed ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Grade 10-12 #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Video testimony format, website screenshots - Improve: Organizational chart showing authority relationships, timeline graphics #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Podcast and video testimony formats - Improve: Audio-only versions of survivor testimonies #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear definitions of spiritual abuse, trauma responses - Improve: Glossary of terms, analogy explanations #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Community platform engagement opportunities - Improve: Action checklists for supporters, step-by-step reporting guides ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Video provides detailed verbal descriptions - Improve: Full transcript with speaker identification, timestamp navigation #### Media and captions - Present: YouTube auto-captions available - Improve: Professional captions, downloadable transcript ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful framing of survivor testimony, content warnings about abuse - Improve: Resource links for crisis support, community guidelines for commenters #### Representation - Present: Centers marginalized survivor voice over institutional power - Improve: Multiple survivor perspective inclusion, diverse support resources ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Inductive strength: Multiple independent witnesses corroborate core claims - Causal reasoning: Clear connection between authority dynamics and consent impossibility #### Fallacies - False equivalency: Jen Johnson's "both sides" framing when facts aren't disputed ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: Institutional minimizing of abuse severity through investigation delays - Attack: Questioning survivor credibility via "internet" dismissals - Reverse victim/offender: Framing institution as needing protection from "loud" survivors ## 🎯 Conclusion Sarah's testimony reveals systemic failures in religious institutional responses to abuse. The lack of direct survivor contact, inappropriate choice of male technology officer as intermediary, and selection of investigation firm without trauma credentials demonstrates organizational protection over survivor care. Multiple independent corroborating witnesses validate Sarah's account while showing broader patterns of spiritual authority abuse. The community's creation of independent platforms like BethelStories.org fills critical gaps left by institutional failures. Moving forward requires trauma-informed protocols, survivor-centered approaches, and recognition that consent cannot exist in spiritual authority relationships. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### [H1] Religious institutions prioritize organizational protection over survivor care > [!quote] [Bethel Scandal: Sarah sets the record straight](https://youtu.be/3ie9l-4m03E) by [Creator]. Published 2024. > "They just want to protect each other...they're just being protective of themselves." Pattern observed across multiple religious abuse cases where institutional survival takes precedence. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/3ie9l-4m03E?t=1960#H1) #xref #institutional-accountability ### [H2] Consent impossible in spiritual authority relationships > [!quote] Same source > "There is no such thing as a consensual sexual relationship with your pastor." Legal and ethical framework for understanding power dynamics in religious settings. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/3ie9l-4m03E?t=4730#H2) #xref #spiritual-authority ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad #### [Z1] Prophetic practices weaponized for boundary violation - Scope: Charismatic religious contexts with claimed divine revelation - Pointer: Multiple witnesses describe pattern at 18:30 - Links: [[Spiritual-Abuse]] [[Religious-Manipulation]] #### [Z2] Independent survivor communities emerge from institutional failures - Scope: When official channels prove inadequate for accountability - Pointer: BethelStories.org creation discussed at 45:20 - Links: [[Community-Response]] [[Institutional-Accountability]] ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue - [F1] Research trauma-informed investigation standards — legal/institutional #fleeting #standards - [F2] Document pattern of tech leaders as abuse intermediaries — inappropriate selection #fleeting #patterns - [F3] Analyze "both sides" framing in undisputed abuse cases — rhetorical analysis #fleeting #rhetoric --- ## Full Transcript [00:01] Well, I have my friend Sarah here with [00:03] me today and I think that this is going [00:06] to be a very interesting conversation. [00:09] I've brought Sarah on. We've been [00:10] talking for weeks after she did the [00:13] podcast on Wake Up and Win and with [00:16] Jubilee Dawn. And so, this is not a [00:18] video where we're going back over what [00:21] Sarah has shared. This is more of um [00:24] just you know her thoughts and [00:26] processing things and um [00:29] clarification and setting the record [00:32] straight in some areas and we're just [00:34] going to be talking about some things [00:35] and also that Jen Johnson video and [00:39] thank you Sarah for sharing that with me [00:41] because I did that the other day where [00:43] in the middle of taping it it went out [00:46] and you know the deal. So in any event, [00:49] so we're going to move into this so that [00:51] we're we we have about an hour and a [00:53] half is what we're dealing with here. So [00:55] we're going to first talk about first [00:57] off, let me just tell everybody that [01:00] Sarah has engaged with a law firm. So we [01:02] will not be talking about that legal [01:05] process. So Sarah, welcome. I'm so glad [01:08] you're here. Thank you for joining me. [01:10] >> How are you? [01:12] >> Good to be here. I'm good. Yeah, I'm a [01:14] little nervous. I don't really love [01:16] being in front of a camera, but I'm, you [01:18] know, excited to talk about it more. [01:21] >> Good. And I know that this is going to [01:22] be helpful to you and helpful to others. [01:25] You and I have been talking for uh quite [01:28] some time. And yeah, I'm glad you're [01:30] here. Let me ask you this because I'm [01:33] sure people, you know, this is after the [01:35] apology video by Chris Valatin and Bill [01:39] Johnson and uh there's some, you know, [01:43] murmurss and and people saying that [01:45] you're not being cooperative. And first [01:47] off, have Chris Valatin and Bill Johnson [01:50] ever reached out to you personally since [01:52] that video? No, I haven't heard from [01:55] anybody um except for the email that I [01:58] got from Richard Gordon, their senior [02:00] leadership team member who I don't know. [02:03] I He was after my time, so I don't [02:05] really know much about him. Yeah, I [02:07] haven't heard from anybody. I've [02:09] reconnected with a lot of friends that [02:10] are still inside of Bethl. Um a good old [02:14] friend of mine I've been talking to [02:15] quite a bit, but I haven't heard from [02:17] anybody directly. [02:19] >> Yep. Yeah, I've seen that and I know you [02:21] shared some of those comments with me [02:22] that people are saying that you're not [02:24] being cooperative and that's just simply [02:26] not true. First off, they haven't [02:28] reached out to you. Second off, and [02:30] we're going to get to that in just a [02:31] second, somebody from Bethl reached out [02:33] to you named Richard Gordon. But now [02:35] that you've engaged with a law firm, [02:37] there's no way that you would ever be [02:38] speaking with them. But let me talk [02:40] about that. So, Richard Gordon, when I [02:42] went to the website, and his picture's [02:45] on the on the thumbnail on the Bethl [02:47] website, he is not listed as a pastor. [02:51] >> He's listed as chief technology officer [02:55] >> and his background is [02:59] in he has completed a BSC [03:03] in computer engineering and a master's [03:05] in electronic engineering. So Sarah, [03:07] just I know this is just uh springing [03:10] this question on you. Would you feel [03:12] comfortable talking to a male even? [03:15] Let's take take out the fact that you [03:16] haven't engaged, you know, say you [03:18] weren't uh with a law group, a law firm, [03:21] and uh you know, you come forward with [03:23] what you went through. Would you feel [03:24] comfortable with a male who is working [03:27] for BETHL and whose background is in [03:30] technology to tell them about the abuse [03:32] that you endured? [03:34] >> Um not really. I I don't know him and I [03:38] think I'm sure he's a nice man and I'm [03:41] sure he cares. At least I hope so. Um [03:44] but I feel like it was a little bit it [03:46] would be inappropriate for me to reach [03:48] back out. And also, you know, I've been [03:51] so far removed from Bethl for so long [03:53] and really gone through a lot of healing [03:55] over my time there that the idea of [03:58] really talking to anybody closely like [04:01] that is pretty triggering for me or the [04:04] thought of it is at least. And I went [04:06] back and forth, you know, I really did [04:07] want to reach back out because, you [04:09] know, my nature is to just like I just [04:11] want everything to be good. Um, so I [04:14] really I really went back and forth on, [04:16] you know, I I even have a couple drafts [04:18] that I did draft to like start, you [04:20] know, reply to him, you know, just, hey, [04:22] thanks for thanks for reaching out. And [04:25] he did leave the ball in my court. he [04:26] did say, you know, obviously um this [04:30] this is up to you, but we're here and [04:32] we'd love to meet with you if you felt [04:34] comfortable enough, but it was not any [04:36] pressure. It was definitely like this is [04:38] your decision. Um and then legally, I [04:41] just don't think it's the right thing to [04:42] do right now. [04:43] >> Right. No, exactly. Yeah, he did end it. [04:46] There is no expectation or pressure to [04:48] respond. We will fully respect whatever [04:51] you decide. So, [04:52] >> I'm glad you have that up. I was trying [04:53] to pull it up, but thanks. [04:55] >> Yeah, I have. Yeah, there's no question [04:57] if I have it. I probably do. So, I've, [05:00] you know, I printed out everything that [05:02] you shared with me, and I know we're not [05:03] going to be able to get to everything, [05:05] but um I did want to address that. And [05:09] also, I wanted to clear this up really [05:11] quickly because after, you know, the [05:14] videos that went up with your testimony, [05:16] some people said in comments, I've seen [05:18] it. Um, even in some of the videos that [05:21] I did, people said that, "Oh, Sarah was [05:22] up on stage when when Ben um, you know, [05:28] apologized or what whatever he did early [05:31] on." You know, I I don't remember what [05:33] they're what they're really saying or [05:34] just said that he had an affair. But it [05:36] wasn't you that was on stage with him, [05:38] right? [05:39] >> No, it wasn't me. I think that rumor [05:40] came from another person who came [05:42] forward with their story and that was [05:45] their memory. But I was not on stage. it [05:46] was him and his wife and that went um [05:49] that went global. It was accidentally [05:51] televised [05:53] >> and so I think a lot of people thought [05:54] it was me but I never had the [05:56] opportunity to do anything like that. [05:59] >> Okay. [06:01] So I'm just going to touch on this too [06:03] because in this the group and we off um [06:07] screen we were talk off recording we [06:09] were talking about this. you're in a a [06:11] group BSSM, right? And it's one that's [06:15] safer or more you feel more safe in that [06:17] one. Can you tell us a little bit about [06:19] that? [06:20] >> Yeah. Um it's a it's a processing group [06:24] um from alumni that you know are not I'm [06:28] I've never been a part of the BSSM [06:29] alumni um groups just because of [06:33] everything that happened with me. [06:34] >> Sure. Um, I never really felt like I [06:37] guess like I described in my in my [06:40] podcasts with like Blaze and Christina [06:42] and Jubilee. Um, I was just always so [06:44] afraid I was going to be rejected, you [06:46] know? So, I never really got into any of [06:48] those. And I've I've deconstructed and [06:50] moved on with my life in a way and done [06:52] a lot of healing that I I don't really [06:54] have a need to be in those groups. I [06:55] don't want to. Um, yeah, but I think I [06:58] did talk about this at one point, but [07:00] >> over a little over a year or so ago, I [07:02] found this um Buffalo or BSSM alumni [07:06] processing group um on Facebook. And I'd [07:09] been in it for a while and not said [07:10] anything. Just kind of watched here and [07:12] there. And that's where I actually first [07:14] started talking about this back in um [07:16] like February or January into January [07:19] when all of this came up. And I I didn't [07:20] even know about Mike Winger's video or [07:22] everything anything like that. um it [07:24] just kind of lined up and I I was like [07:26] I'm going to post in there and see if [07:28] it's safe. Uh but it's a variety of [07:30] people, you know, some still in Bethl, [07:32] some still very like supportive of a lot [07:34] of BETHL. It's very balanced. And then [07:37] there's people who are totally [07:38] deconstructed from the faith entirely. [07:40] Yeah. [07:40] >> Some just so it's a it's a variety of [07:43] people, but it's been a really awesome [07:44] safe place for a lot of people to [07:47] process. [07:47] >> Yeah. [07:48] >> When you just said that, it reminded me [07:50] you did talk about it with with um [07:52] Jubilee Dawn. Yeah, [07:54] >> I do remember you talking about that. [07:55] Right. [07:56] >> And so [07:58] >> since you are an alumni, you do get [08:01] emails from them, updates in regard to [08:04] what they're doing now or know. [08:06] >> It's funny, I didn't for a long time. Um [08:09] I don't know why I hadn't seen any of [08:11] the emails come through from BETHL and [08:13] maybe I just miss them. Um but I pay [08:15] pretty good attention to my emails [08:16] because of work. Uh but when I was [08:19] speaking with my friend who's inside [08:21] Bethl still, he was just trying to, you [08:24] know, kind of, you know, what do you [08:26] what do you how do you feel about us [08:27] reaching out? Like how come people [08:29] haven't reached out to you? He was [08:30] really, you know, talking to me about [08:32] how I felt that no one had really tried [08:34] to be supportive of me. Um and he Sorry, [08:39] I forgot I forgot your question. [08:42] >> Well, um do you get the emails? I was [08:44] asking about that. [08:45] >> Oh, yeah. Yes. Sorry. So he [08:48] um I was talking to him and talking [08:51] about how you know it would be I I feel [08:54] like the right thing for them to do [08:55] would be to reach out to me and he was [08:57] like do you want them to call you and I [08:58] said no probably an email would be best. [09:01] So I gave my friend my email that's when [09:03] Richard Gordon reached out to me and [09:04] then suddenly I started getting all the [09:06] Bethl emails and updates again. [09:08] >> Yeah that's interesting. [09:09] >> Interesting. Yeah. [09:10] >> And I think it was around April 4th. I [09:13] was just looking at our text messages [09:15] because you had shared one with me and [09:17] there was an update from um Bethl and it [09:19] said, "Dear Bethl online community and [09:22] they said since our letter on January [09:24] 25th, 2026 and subsequent updates on [09:27] February 15th and 27th that we've [09:30] continued to deeply reflect on this [09:32] season with sobriety and care. I'm not [09:34] going to go through the whole thing, but [09:35] ultimately they said that they are they [09:39] have engaged a group called CRA S I N T [09:42] R A if anybody wants to look it up. CRA [09:44] group investigations [09:47] and they said that um it's an [09:48] organization with over 20 years of [09:50] experience in investigative work [09:53] including traumainformed investigative [09:55] protocols. [09:57] So when you said that to me, of course I [09:59] looked it up and I could not find [10:01] anything on their website about trauma [10:03] informed. They have a very basic Did you [10:05] have an opportunity to look at their [10:06] website too, Sarah? [10:08] >> I did look at it. I did spend some time [10:10] looking for um evidence that it was [10:12] trauma informed and just kind of the [10:14] experience that they had, how long the [10:16] company had been um functioning, I [10:19] guess. [10:20] >> Yeah. And so, you know, as a lawyer, I [10:23] mean, we engage with all types of [10:25] investigators, you know, people that are [10:27] prior um law enforcement that some of [10:31] them, you know, they start their own [10:32] companies. That's it's just what they [10:34] do. But that this is what the vibe I got [10:38] after researching this was that and it [10:40] does say that they're um ex first [10:42] responders uh you know, retired. And [10:45] really what um I got from it was that [10:48] they do background checks like they do [10:50] administrative type of uh investigations [10:54] and they do data searches. There was [10:57] nothing on here saying like hands-on [10:59] like other than the fact that they say [11:01] that they did investigations while they [11:03] were law enforcement. Doesn't have [11:05] anyone's names on that website. It's [11:07] just very vague. And again, it doesn't [11:10] say anything about working with [11:12] churches, working, you know, [11:14] investigating clergy, investigating any [11:17] type of SA or any abuse for that matter. [11:20] Um, it was more, you know, just like [11:23] these background churches. Uh, sorry, [11:25] background searches. Uh, yeah. So I [11:29] don't that's my impression as far as you [11:31] know [11:33] if I was someone in your situation [11:37] and there's many others that have [11:39] varying um experiences with Bethl I [11:44] personally would be concerned about [11:46] engaging with this group. So, you know, [11:50] somebody that is not trauma informed [11:53] leading an investigation can be [11:55] triggering and can cause more trauma. [11:58] So, that is why, you know, you want to [12:00] get your, you know, you want to do your [12:02] due diligence and you want to research [12:03] these things because if you don't, [12:05] you're going to you might end up in a [12:07] situation where, you know, you're not [12:10] better off, you might be worse off [12:11] because of what they're um, you know, [12:15] engaging in, which you really don't need [12:17] to be. So any thoughts on that with that [12:21] CRA group? [12:22] >> Yeah, I was a little concerned when I [12:24] when they first announced that and like [12:26] I said, I looked at their website to me [12:28] I and people were posting about it in [12:30] this processing group I'm a part of and [12:32] they were like, you know, where does it [12:33] say they're trauma informed? Bethl said [12:35] that, but there's nothing on their [12:37] website. And then I've had I've had some [12:39] pretty uh great people like really doing [12:42] some research and say they find nothing [12:44] about it. And then um just that there's [12:47] no real evidence in their like 15 years [12:49] of being um in operation I guess that [12:52] shows that they held any institutions [12:54] accountable or found anything. It seems [12:57] like they just kind of leave it up to [12:59] the institution to decide. But I'm not [13:01] I'm not really sure. That's just kind of [13:03] what it seems like to me. [13:04] >> Right. It's really it was hard to find [13:07] anything and that's what I understand [13:08] from when you and I were talking about [13:10] it. Very hard to find anything. And [13:12] that's concerning too because you want [13:14] to know what do they do with that [13:15] information after they gather it, you [13:17] know, how do they deliver it? How do [13:20] they conclude it? Those kinds of things. [13:22] So, um that was very concerning. But [13:25] there is um a new website uh by Beckett [13:29] and um I told him that I was going to be [13:32] sharing that here today on the on the [13:35] video. And so it's called [13:37] bethlstories.org [13:39] org. And [13:41] if you go to the about, I'm just going [13:43] to read it really quickly. Bethl Stories [13:45] is a community-led effort. We are not [13:47] here to take the place of a therapist, [13:49] lawyer, or other professional. And they [13:52] are not affiliated in any way with [13:53] Bethl. The goal is to create a a space [13:56] for many stories of abuse, fraud, and [13:59] cover up that they've heard from fellow [14:02] BSSM and BSSD alumni, Bethl writing [14:06] staff, volunteers, and people involved [14:08] in Bethl branded churches and [14:10] ministries. [14:12] And then it goes on to say, "In an [14:14] environment where we're told the utmost [14:16] goal we could work towards was bringing [14:18] heaven to earth, many of us put our full [14:20] trust in the words of Bill Johnson, [14:23] Chris Valatin, and Danny Silk, and those [14:25] they hired to support and guide us. We [14:27] believe the conquering that conquering [14:29] the seven mountains of family, media, [14:31] education, arts, and entertainment, [14:33] religion, business, and government was a [14:34] worthy mission. [14:37] We were told out to go out and change [14:39] the world. We became we came to Bethl [14:41] and BSSM because we wanted to live out [14:44] our faith. We wanted to see people [14:46] healed and see lives changed through [14:48] connection to a God who was a good [14:50] father. We read books about leaders [14:52] who'd come before us and who often [14:54] failed in major ways to live a good and [14:56] ethical life before they passed. We [14:59] shook our heads at how they fell and [15:01] tried to examine ourselves to ensure we [15:02] never met the same fate. And yet all [15:05] that time we were standing on a rotting [15:07] foundation. [15:09] Some of our fellow students at the time [15:11] were going through hell on earth as [15:14] leaders within the movement shut them [15:16] down for reporting concerning behavior, [15:19] offered cash in exchange for silence and [15:23] an NDA or even committed horrific abuse [15:26] against them. I that needed to be [15:29] shared. I'm glad that that was included [15:31] in that about portion. And it says, "Now [15:34] many of us now having left Bethl are [15:37] left not with happy memories and a [15:39] stronger relationship with God, but [15:42] depression, anxiety, PTSD, some even [15:47] considered unalivvening themselves as a [15:51] result of the harm that was done to them [15:52] by Bethal leaders. That is [15:55] extraordinary. [15:57] >> Absolutely extraordinary. It just it [15:59] makes me pause and just and we have to [16:01] pause and think about how important this [16:04] is. Your story is important. Everyone's [16:07] story is important. [16:09] Um there's many, many stories. I've [16:11] listened to so many people and I know [16:12] you have too, Sarah. A lot of people [16:15] reached out to you with their stories. [16:17] >> Oh yes, I've had a lot. And you know, [16:19] just reading that paragraph about, you [16:21] know, the PTSD and the just the the [16:24] depression and what you go through after [16:26] spiritual abuse, religious abuse, clergy [16:28] abuse. Um, I've experienced all of it, [16:31] you know, so I I have a lot of I have a [16:34] lot of empathy and compassion for people [16:36] and it's been actually just like so [16:38] amazing that people feel safe enough to [16:40] talk to me about it. and I've been [16:42] trying to help people with resources [16:43] because I actually do a lot of like [16:46] mental health and peer support for uh [16:48] first responders with PTSD. So, I have a [16:50] lot of extra resources and um advice [16:53] that I can give and it's really nice to [16:55] just be able because I don't have the [16:56] capacity right now, but I can direct [16:58] people appropriately. So, [17:00] >> and you've been very helpful for a lot [17:02] of those people, too. So, [17:04] >> I I hope I have been and I will continue [17:06] to be. It's really um [17:10] unfortunately where people have been [17:12] discarded and just avoided and uh pushed [17:17] aside and that's why I have this [17:19] platform you know where we are going to [17:22] talk about it and let me just interject [17:24] right here because I know that you know [17:26] this has to be said I say this in a lot [17:27] of my videos um this is a safe place for [17:31] people that have been have been abused [17:34] in various ways and also for [17:36] whistleblowers and also family members [17:38] of those because they're affected as [17:40] well. And I don't put up with any of the [17:43] comments that could be uh deemed harmful [17:47] and hurtful. People that question [17:49] whether somebody's telling the truth or [17:50] not, just don't listen. You know, um [17:54] this channel will not be for you. You [17:56] know, this is a place where we platform [17:58] people to give them a voice because for [18:00] you, Sarah, your voice was taken away [18:02] for such a long time. That's why your [18:04] story I mean it's so important and um [18:08] again I know from talking to you like [18:10] you've just shared a lot of things that [18:13] you know you've been seeing happening [18:15] and and feeling and experiencing since [18:18] your story has gone public and um I know [18:22] you want to make sure that people or [18:25] your hope at least is that people will [18:27] be blessed by it and also be encouraged [18:30] and come out and tell their stories as [18:32] well. Yeah, 100%. I mean, that was a big [18:36] I'm not I never imagined that I'd be [18:38] able to talk about it. Like I've said, I [18:40] couldn't. And then just since being able [18:42] to talk about it, get my story out [18:45] there, everything I remember, um it's [18:47] just been extremely healing. And it I [18:49] mean, I keep telling myself if nothing [18:51] else comes of this, um the most [18:53] important thing is that the like the [18:55] fruit of what is happening in my life is [18:57] amazing. Like I I'm like more open. I'm [19:01] happier. my marriage is doing better. I [19:03] just feel more free. Um I'm getting [19:06] somewhere with this all of this in like [19:08] therapy now because it makes sense [19:10] finally and just knowing I have support. [19:12] And then also the fact that it opens the [19:14] door for other people to feel safe to [19:16] talk because that's why you know I keep [19:18] saying this that's why I started talking [19:19] started hearing people talk about clergy [19:22] abuse and spiritual abuse and I'm start [19:24] I started making the connections that [19:26] led me to be able to talk. So, I hope to [19:28] do that for other people for sure and I [19:30] have and I'm really grateful for that. [19:32] >> That's great, [19:33] >> 100%. [19:34] >> And your courage is is just so [19:36] appreciated. And I know you said this, [19:37] but you you did start thinking about it [19:41] and wanting to put your story out there [19:43] even before the Mike Winger video came [19:46] out. [19:46] >> Yeah. Yeah. I think it was around when [19:48] everything started coming out about Mike [19:50] Bickl and then, you know, I heard about [19:52] Bob Hartley and, you know, I I was [19:54] around for the Bob Hartley time and and [19:57] when Jed was around, but yeah, I I [20:00] started kind of coming to terms with [20:02] what really happened to me, hearing [20:04] other people's stories in therapy, like [20:06] having professionals really show me. Um, [20:09] I was I was like, "Okay, well, now what [20:11] do I do with it?" And I didn't know what [20:12] I was going to do, but I knew that I [20:15] needed to use my voice and I needed to [20:17] talk because I have been so shut down [20:19] with this for so long. You know, it's [20:21] been very internal and very um very [20:24] complicated and confusing. So yeah, I [20:27] had wanted to. I just didn't know how. [20:29] And then it just [20:30] >> it just happened and there was momentum [20:32] and the timing was right for sure. [20:33] >> Yeah, [20:35] >> that's amazing. I want to talk about and [20:37] without sharing names because you don't [20:38] have to share names if you don't want [20:39] to. two particular people that have come [20:42] out and really encouraged you and helped [20:45] you. Um I have one that's written uh [20:49] someone who was an intern with you. Do [20:51] you want to talk about that [20:53] >> when you were an intern for Ben? That [20:55] person was an intern as well. [20:57] >> This person was an intern with me that [20:59] year and I had not I haven't I haven't [21:03] um made anything happen as far as like [21:06] intentionally reaching out to people. [21:07] It's just been person after person [21:10] finding me, contacting me, and just [21:13] offering their support. And this person, [21:15] >> they're okay if I name them, but I just [21:17] want to protect them and not say their [21:19] name. But we talked on the phone for a [21:22] couple different times, I think, for [21:23] like an hour about everything that we [21:25] went through. Um, they're still a little [21:28] bit connected to Buffalo in a way. um [21:31] and just really trying to figure out on [21:34] their own what what they went through [21:36] and kind of deconstruct themselves but [21:39] wrote me this amazing letter of like you [21:42] know basically just support like this is [21:44] what I went through. It was very [21:45] balanced because we did have good [21:47] experiences. You know, in the beginning, [21:50] um Ben and lots of leaders were people [21:53] we really looked up to and trusted. And [21:55] basically this um letter talks about [21:58] how, you know, everyone was so like [22:01] loving and so kind. And it also felt [22:04] like everything they said was like it, [22:08] you know, we didn't we couldn't really [22:09] have opinions because we just believed [22:11] that they knew better. So she talks [22:13] about that. that she talks about [22:14] experiences she had with Ben um that are [22:17] similar to mine and then says in the [22:20] end, you know, I watched what happened [22:21] to Sarah for a year and everything she [22:23] says in her podcast is true. I watched [22:26] it. I saw it all. And she says, um, [22:29] aside from being in the house and the [22:31] one-on-one experiences that I had with [22:32] Ben, she watched it all. And he was [22:35] very, he targeted me more than anyone. [22:37] And I wasn't married, the other two [22:38] interns were, so maybe that was part of [22:40] it. Um, but it was just like extremely [22:43] supportive for her to send me that and [22:45] just more healing and then we've become [22:47] friends again. So, it's really awesome. [22:49] Yeah, [22:50] >> it is. Do you mind if I share some of [22:52] the things that she said? Can I do that? [22:54] >> Yeah. Yes. I have it here by not [22:57] >> I have it highlighted. Um, she was [23:00] talking about that all three of you [23:02] really looked up to Ben and that you all [23:05] respected and enjoyed being taught by [23:07] him and that the respect turned into a [23:10] type of submission as there was this [23:13] feeling at least for her that Ben was [23:16] always right prophetically. And in the [23:18] internship that often looked like Ben [23:20] sharing prophetic critiques of y'all's [23:23] character or your emotional world. So [23:27] whatever he said about you all, you [23:29] would all believe. And he would [23:31] consistently tell you that you needed to [23:33] be more open, trust more, let your walls [23:37] down. And because she's expressing [23:40] because she looked up to him so much, [23:42] she believed it mostly without question. [23:44] Did you feel similar to what she said? [23:47] >> I've talked about that a little bit in [23:49] the best way that I know how. But yeah, [23:51] I experienced all of that. [23:53] >> Yeah. I mean, Ben Ben was our hero and [23:55] we loved him and we really looked up to [23:57] him as well as like pretty much all of [24:00] Bethl leadership. You know, these are [24:01] like [24:02] >> right [24:02] >> these are the elite um the elite of [24:06] evangelical Christianity in a way. So, [24:08] you just trusted them and listened to [24:10] everything they said. And [24:12] >> I mean definitely if you had red flags [24:13] or weren't certain about things, it it [24:16] was pretty easy to just shelf it. You [24:17] know, maybe I don't really connect to [24:19] that, but you could shelf some things. [24:20] But we everything Ben said was like [24:23] something we wanted to listen to. [24:25] >> She also said that um talking about you [24:29] that Sarah's account of the way that Ben [24:32] would speak to her is exactly how I [24:34] remember it. She says that he Ben had [24:37] said similar things to her, but that Ben [24:41] spoke that much that way much more [24:43] frequent frequently to you. And then she [24:46] recalled one instance when Ben told her [24:50] that um that she had int that she had [24:53] issues with intimacy. And this reminded [24:56] me of Ros. And she does mention Ros in [24:58] here too. And so that was very telling [25:01] because this is all corroboration. I [25:03] mean Roz corroborates you, you [25:05] corroborate Roz. And now this young [25:07] lady, she corroborates you both. And she [25:10] says that um Ben told her that it was [25:15] going to affect her marriage if she [25:17] didn't fix it. And you know this is what [25:19] people that you know the coercive [25:21] control, the manipulation, all of this, [25:24] the grooming, this is what they do. And [25:27] you know they get into your head and I [25:29] could clearly see it because she says at [25:31] that time I hadn't been married long and [25:33] what he said really bothered me. I got [25:36] very introspective and I thought [25:38] something was very wrong with me. So, [25:41] you know, I can see that as you know, [25:42] young adults and you're in this [25:44] situation and you've got this leader, [25:47] you know, that you trust, you look up [25:49] to, he's fun, you know, [25:52] >> and then he says these things that, you [25:54] know, it starts you looking inward and [25:57] thinking things about yourself that you [26:00] never thought before that really were [26:01] never there. you know, it's just making [26:03] things up and it's part of that grooming [26:06] and and manipulation process. But [26:08] absolutely what she says in this, it it [26:10] 100% corroborates what you've shared as [26:13] well. Um, and then she, you know, talks [26:16] about the intimacy issues, the touching. [26:20] Um, she talks about that as well in her [26:22] letter. [26:25] So there was also another individual [26:28] that I think you said that you found him [26:31] on TikTok. [26:33] >> Yeah. Yeah. [26:33] >> Do you want to talk about that? [26:34] >> There's been a few people who have [26:36] reached out and you know offered support [26:38] and just because there's times where I'm [26:40] like man like I it's so long ago. It's [26:43] it's just really good to like be [26:45] encouraged that no we saw it and you're [26:47] not crazy. [26:48] >> Um but yeah actually I had totally [26:51] forgotten about this. is in the back of [26:52] my brain somewhere. Um, it must have [26:55] been I think like October of 2024 [26:59] or 25 24. I was just scrolling Tik Tok [27:04] and somebody's um somebody's video [27:07] popped up on my for you page and he was [27:10] talking about he says, "Let me introduce [27:11] you to my spiritual parents, Ben and [27:14] Heather Armstrong." And then suddenly [27:16] it's a clip of them on Bethl stage [27:17] talking. They're like about to preach or [27:19] something and probably tell their story [27:22] and they talk about some very Bethly [27:24] things that he feels is kind of not good [27:28] and uncomfortable I guess. So he [27:30] mentions that in his um TikTok and then [27:33] he goes on to say they were when he was [27:35] a teenager. I think uh Ben was his like [27:39] youth pastor or Ben was some kind of in [27:42] leadership and he had come this is like [27:44] the missing timeline between Bob Johnson [27:47] and then coming to Bethl I believe if I [27:49] remember right it was a different [27:50] church. [27:51] >> So he went there and Ben was in charge [27:53] of either a college group or the youth [27:55] group. Um and he talks about how he felt [27:58] singled out by Ben because he was the [28:00] cool kid and he was a worship leader. Um [28:02] and his dad was a drug addict. He had a [28:04] really really rough childhood. So, um, [28:08] Ben kind of he says targeted him and [28:11] then manipulated him with the prophetic [28:13] stuff. Um, I've had a really good [28:16] conversation with him about that and [28:17] some of the things he experienced Ben [28:19] doing inappropriate stuff, saying [28:22] inappropriate stuff to like teenagers. [28:25] um prophesying things that the teenagers [28:28] took for you know this this pastor or [28:31] leader is telling them and then it winds [28:33] up sim like similar to what Jubilee went [28:35] through a really harmful relationship [28:37] that was prophesied to them. You know [28:39] these are teenagers and young adults. He [28:42] talked about that. And so, yeah, [28:44] actually when I found that TikTok, I [28:46] reached out to him right away and I was [28:48] like, "Hey, like I had not talked about [28:50] this at all yet." And I was in the [28:52] beginning stages of figuring all of this [28:55] out. So, he was really supportive and [28:57] helpful for me and has been like he says [29:00] to me, you know, in a way we're like [29:01] messed up long lost messed up siblings [29:04] in a way, which is weird, but yeah, he's [29:07] great. And I found out he has a home [29:08] near me in the town I live in. So, we [29:10] are going to get lunch and hang out, [29:11] which I'm really excited about. He's [29:13] been [29:13] >> That's amazing. [29:14] >> He's a sweetheart. [29:15] >> That is absolutely amazing. You know, [29:18] the whole thing, you know, I'm glad you [29:20] mentioned that about Jubilee Dawn, you [29:22] know, getting that [29:24] garbage prophetic word by Sean BS. What [29:28] I've been hearing about Ben Armstrong [29:31] and others, not just at Bethl, but other [29:34] places, but of course we're talking [29:35] about Bethl, so there, you know, and [29:37] they're practicing the prophetic and oh, [29:39] it's a mess. Oh, I made a mess. Oh, as [29:42] if you just like, you know, [29:44] >> they use that word a lot. [29:46] >> Yeah, they love that. Clean up your mess [29:48] in aisle three. I mean, it's it's really [29:52] um [29:55] patronizing and it's really minimizing [29:58] and it's harmful. But what I'm trying to [30:01] say is I don't know if there really is a [30:03] difference between what Sean BS was [30:05] doing, pulling that information out from [30:08] social media as opposed to somebody like [30:11] Ben Armstrong just pulling it out of the [30:13] air and just giving them words that, you [30:16] know, didn't come to pass and could have [30:18] potentially been harmful. I'm just [30:19] saying that as an example in general [30:21] terms, but um based upon from what I'm [30:25] hearing that that kind of occurred quite [30:26] a bit. [30:28] >> Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I mean, I [30:31] don't really know because not an [30:33] investigator and I'm not God, but [30:36] >> I can't really say for sure whether um [30:39] it was good or bad intentions. I believe [30:42] that it was. I think it's just coming [30:45] from the top down and you know he's [30:47] learning prophetic and just talking with [30:49] this person who was in a teenager when [30:52] Ben kind of adopted him spiritually [30:55] adopted him. He talks about how um it [30:59] just felt like he was kind of [31:02] evangelizing their church with the [31:04] prophetic and their church felt [31:05] uncomfortable about it. And then he he [31:07] actually um gathered the youth and kind [31:10] of started his own underground group [31:12] because the church was kind of [31:13] uncomfortable with the way he was doing [31:15] the prophetic and teaching the prophetic [31:17] to all these kids. So yeah. [31:19] >> Yeah. [31:20] >> I hope that the intentions were good. [31:22] But either way, it's harmful. [31:24] >> Yeah, it is. And it's good to talk about [31:26] this stuff. And I forgot to mention this [31:29] because you and I talked about this back [31:31] to Richard Gordon, the one who was [31:33] reaching out to you to talk. [31:35] >> Yeah. Uh, you came across a video where [31:38] he's in a video with Ben Armstrong and [31:41] what was the opening statement? [31:43] >> Uh, I have it right here. Benh says, um, [31:47] let me introduce you to my good friend [31:49] Richard Gordon. And so that was like, oh [31:51] my gosh, like I'm even more glad I [31:54] didn't respond to his email because that [31:56] just feels so inappropriate. Like on a [31:59] on a in so many levels, it's just wildly [32:02] inappropriate. [32:04] wildly inappropriate. Absolutely. [32:07] >> I mean, this organization who, you know, [32:10] their representatives Chris and Bill get [32:13] on stage and say that they're they're [32:14] wanting to make the wrong things right. [32:17] And [32:18] >> they weren't using trauma-informed or [32:20] any like language in that apology. And [32:24] then after that, that's I this is my [32:27] belief is that they got with legal [32:30] counsel and then all of a sudden the [32:31] language looked a little bit different [32:32] and they started using that. But with [32:35] that being said and with that in mind, [32:37] you would think that they would have [32:39] somebody perhaps a female uh [32:42] traumainformed perhaps reach out to you, [32:45] but no, they're going to send somebody. [32:46] My good friend Ben calls sorry Ben calls [32:50] Richard his good friend or vice versa. [32:53] Uh Ben calls him his friend. [32:55] >> Yeah. And this is the man they have [32:57] reach out to you in the midst of what's [32:58] going on here where all eyes are are on [33:01] Bethl [33:03] >> after he came out. And [33:05] >> I'm sure he's a nice man. Yeah. And I'm [33:07] sure I'm sorry I interrupted you. I'm [33:08] sure he's a nice man and means well, but [33:11] um at least I hope so. [33:13] >> Uh it seemed like it from his email, but [33:15] it just made me realize even more like [33:18] the more that comes out and the more I [33:20] see, they're just not getting it. And [33:22] that ultimately would be the goal, you [33:25] know, for everyone to just understand [33:27] and be informed and just heal and grow [33:30] and be better. That's the whole point of [33:32] all of this in a lot of ways. I That's [33:34] how I feel. So [33:35] >> Oh, 100%. [33:36] >> It's so sad. I'm just like, you're just [33:38] not getting it. And that's for a lot. [33:40] It's hard for so many people. [33:43] >> I know. And And I I feel so bad for [33:46] because you have that frustration, but [33:48] you're handling it so well. I mean, you [33:50] really are. And it it is frustrating [33:53] because everybody handles things [33:55] differently and unfortunately that is a [33:57] realization. I mean even all the you [33:59] know the messages that you and I have [34:01] been sharing and you've shared with me [34:03] and I see the comments where it is clear [34:06] that people like BSSM students their [34:09] comments they do not understand trauma. [34:12] They don't understand [34:14] what that process looks like, what how, [34:17] you know, people go through that and [34:20] they it's so foreign to them. You know, [34:24] nobody wakes up and says, "Oh, okay." [34:26] You you know, when you're going to a [34:28] church that you went to school there and [34:31] you're trusting those leaders, you never [34:34] go in there thinking, "Oh, this could [34:35] possibly happen." It's just not [34:37] something that you even think of. And [34:41] the fact is, you know, they didn't take [34:42] steps to make sure that people were [34:45] protected. You know, you go to a [34:47] building, right? This the the school, [34:50] the church, whatever, they're going to [34:51] have an evacuation plan, right? [34:54] Well, do you have a plan for when a [34:56] student gets assaulted, you know, just [34:59] like any other university or college or [35:02] school out there? It doesn't seem like [35:04] they did. [35:07] >> Yeah. Um, [35:09] yeah, there's a lot there. I had like so [35:11] many thoughts come to mind. I'm trying [35:12] to like remember everything, but [35:15] um, sorry, can you remember? [35:17] >> Oh, no, it's not a It was just a [35:19] thought. It's just a thought. [35:21] >> Yeah. So, I am going because we're 35 [35:24] minutes in. So, because we're going to [35:26] go through this video. I'm going to [35:28] bring it up and so let me just tell [35:32] people, too, like this. This is I know [35:34] this is going to be triggering for you, [35:35] Sarah. So, [35:38] But I know it's it's also going to be [35:40] healing, too, because it's [35:44] I can't, you know, there's so many words [35:46] that I could use, but it's it's [35:48] inconceivable to me that Jen Johnson [35:50] would have decided to do this video and [35:53] say what she said and to the point they [35:55] obviously knew it was wrong and but you [35:58] know, like everything else, they get the [36:00] backlash and that's when they clean up [36:02] their mess, right? So, let's go through [36:05] this. I'm going to start it at when [36:06] they're talking about a scandal and just [36:08] tell me when um you know you want to say [36:11] anything and I'll stop too if I want to [36:13] make any comments. Do you want to do [36:14] that? [36:15] >> Yeah, sure. Yeah. [36:16] >> And thank you for being here. I am to be [36:19] honest a bit nervous about this [36:20] interview because I know if I ask you [36:22] >> All right, I'm going to move it up. [36:26] >> Scandals at Bethl and some past ones. I [36:29] will not mention any names due to legal [36:30] reasons, but recently a closely [36:33] associated Bethl partner in ministry was [36:37] caught using social media to gather [36:38] information about people before publicly [36:41] giving words of knowledge and prophecy [36:43] about those specific people. In other [36:44] words, he was scraping the internet to [36:46] look like he had words of knowledge and [36:48] prophecy about people. And that same [36:49] leader also has allegations of sexual [36:52] abuse. Similarly, one of the key pastors [36:54] on staff recently was accused by an [36:57] intern. This happened in the past, but [36:58] it was brought to light recently that he [37:00] tried to drag her into bed. And then we [37:02] also know that Bethl Music had had to [37:04] separate themselves from some key [37:06] artists. [37:07] >> I have to stop and just her body [37:09] language here. I don't know if you [37:10] noticed that, Sarah. I mean, [37:13] >> the disinterest on her face, that's what [37:15] I see. And you know, maybe somebody that [37:18] knows her and I know you knew her, [37:19] right? [37:20] >> Yeah, I knew that. I knew Jen pretty [37:22] well. Um, to me, I wanted to joke with [37:25] you when we first started. uh recording [37:27] this. Should I just sit in my car with [37:29] my laptop and and would that be [37:31] appropriate? I don't know. But I [37:35] I just it feels disrespectful to me. And [37:39] it's very Jen. Like I did know her [37:41] pretty well and um she's really good [37:43] friends with the Armstrongs and has been [37:45] since I was around so that it makes [37:47] sense all of it. But [37:49] >> yeah, when he got to the point talking [37:51] about the situation with you, she just [37:53] looks away and pulls her hair. It's I [37:56] mean I think it's telling. I don't know [37:58] body language, but it just doesn't sit [38:00] right. Doesn't feel right. Just like you [38:01] said. [38:02] >> Yeah, maybe I She did mention that she [38:04] doesn't feel good. Maybe she just, you [38:06] know, was not really feeling it and [38:08] wanted to go home and that is [38:11] understandable, but yeah, [38:12] >> perhaps. And that's she could be [38:14] manifesting that she's just [38:16] uncomfortable. But, you know, she did [38:18] agree to this. So, she could have said, [38:21] "Hey, you know, I don't really want to [38:22] go into the scandals. I don't want to [38:24] talk about it." but she agreed to it. So [38:26] that to me is very concerning. [38:29] All right, let me go. [38:31] >> That he tried to drag her into bed. And [38:33] then we also know that Bethl Music had [38:35] had to separate themselves from some key [38:37] artists for posting inappropriate or [38:39] compromising situations. Right? So my [38:42] question in lumping all these together [38:44] is what has God taught you and the Bethl [38:48] leadership through these scandals? And [38:51] should worship leaders who are singing [38:52] your songs be concerned that these [38:54] things are even taking place? So, how [38:57] would you respond to both of those [38:59] questions? [38:59] >> Yeah, tough stuff. That's what I'd say [39:01] at the top. It's just it's tough. And I [39:04] know and love the people that are [39:06] accused. And I think [39:09] >> I have to stop there because she that's [39:12] her first thought is the accused. and [39:16] that's she has to share that that's who [39:18] she loves and she knows you. She knows [39:21] it's you who was abused. Um I'm sure she [39:25] knows about other people too and she [39:28] doesn't mention anybody else. She [39:29] doesn't have to mention them by name. I [39:31] mean obviously they're not mentioned by [39:32] name but that was very um concerning to [39:35] me. What about you Sarah? [39:39] >> Um yeah. Uh when I was first watching [39:42] it, I was pretty I was like upset [39:44] obviously uh because clearly it's just [39:47] like everything I'm seeing internally [39:50] within Bethul's institution. It's like [39:53] they just want to protect each other and [39:55] that's I understand that because they [39:57] love each other and they're friends and [39:59] like this is their whole identity and [40:01] their whole empire. But it makes me it [40:04] reminds me of how I felt when I was on [40:07] the inside. obviously very protective of [40:09] these elite Christians that you just in [40:12] a way like are like you know you worship [40:14] them in a way they're your heroes. Um [40:16] >> right [40:17] >> and so I think they're just being [40:20] protective of themselves. They didn't [40:22] ever know the whole story. Um and I have [40:26] yeah there's there's a lot I could say [40:28] but um I think they're just seeing what [40:30] they want to see and protecting [40:32] themselves. And yeah, I mean, I would [40:34] probably feel the same way if it was [40:36] somebody that I was very good friends [40:38] with and loved. Um, but you still listen [40:42] to the people who are coming forward [40:44] with these like [40:46] >> stories um of abuse. And I mean, [40:50] honestly, it's like leadership 101. I've [40:53] been saying this. It's like I'm in [40:54] charge of a crew of people. I am [40:56] responsible for these people. I don't [40:58] have to necessarily get along with all [41:00] of them or like them or totally believe [41:02] them or know when they come to me with a [41:04] situation or story, but my number one [41:06] job is to protect my people and take [41:08] care of them. And I'm like, how this [41:11] just we're just seeing this in so many [41:13] areas of Bethl. It's like you're not [41:16] taking care of these people. Like it's [41:18] leadership 101. You take care of your [41:20] people. You listen to people. You get [41:22] the full p the big picture. You you hear [41:25] the whole story. Um, and it just seems [41:28] like they're really just in the interest [41:30] and business of protecting each other. [41:32] And that's really just not okay. And I'm [41:35] hoping that changes. I think a lot of [41:37] people are. [41:39] >> Yeah. And I agree. And that was very [41:41] well said. All right. Let's [41:44] >> At the end of the day, humans are human. [41:47] And for me, the tough part is that often [41:50] times people only hear the internet. [41:53] They only hear one side of the story. [41:54] they only hear what someone who wasn't [41:57] even connected to the experience is [42:00] saying about it or what. [42:02] >> So, this is really troubling because [42:04] we've all heard your side and you're [42:07] obviously connected. It happened to you [42:10] and then just the fact that she's [42:12] saying, "Oh, the internet, you know, [42:15] they're on the internet. She's on a [42:17] show. She's on a podcast on the [42:19] internet." [42:20] >> It's comical. Really? [42:21] >> It is. like they their whole like I mean [42:25] yeah we use the internet for everything [42:27] you that's how you become so big and [42:29] famous that's how you sell your music [42:31] that's how you sell your worship um it's [42:34] on the internet and I think I don't know [42:36] if she's referring to me or individuals [42:38] or the podcasters or interviewers um but [42:41] this is how we speak this is 2026 um [42:44] technology is online um this is freedom [42:48] of speech and this is how people talk [42:50] and for me this is how I'm healing like [42:53] doing makeup and win was like the most [42:55] healing thing I've probably ever done [42:57] for myself, you know, and it it was [42:58] because of the internet and podcasters [43:01] and yeah, maybe they don't know [43:03] everything. Um, and yes, I do believe [43:06] that all sides of the story should be [43:08] heard, but we've been hearing their side [43:09] for a long time and you know, now it's [43:11] important to listen to other people. And [43:14] yeah, I could go on and on, but [43:16] >> Terry, you're so humble and kind. You [43:19] really are. I mean, when I first saw [43:21] this, I remember when you sent it to me, [43:22] I was, you remember, I was on fire and I [43:24] was just like, "Oh my gosh, this is [43:26] insane." [43:27] I mean, just that level of um [43:33] just lack of empathy, um just common [43:36] decency. That's that's what I see that [43:39] she's lacking. And yeah, I get it. You [43:42] know, we can explain it, but it's not an [43:45] excuse. you. She I'm talking about Jen [43:47] lives in a bubble and it's very [43:49] protected and perhaps, you know, nothing [43:51] bad happens to her except for at the end [43:53] she talks about how she writes a song [43:55] about being mad at God because her um [43:58] mother-in-law died. But it's interesting [44:00] that you know these people that she knew [44:04] you, she knew others for sure that were [44:07] also that are also claiming that they [44:10] were abused too, but there's just no [44:12] sense of [44:14] relaying to them in any way. So, you [44:17] know, so to me, this makes even though [44:20] it's not her, you know, it's it's her [44:22] father-in-law and Chris, it just makes [44:24] what they said initially [44:27] lack any sincerity because then now she [44:30] comes on the scene on the internet and [44:34] does this. So, it's just very disturbing [44:37] to me. [44:38] >> Yes. And [44:40] I want to think and believe that Bill [44:42] and Chris are trying to do the right [44:44] thing. And I think that they really I [44:47] believe that they really do care. I hope [44:51] um they're just not they're just not [44:53] getting it. I think is what it looks [44:55] like to me. [44:56] >> And they might not ever, you know, and [44:58] that's something that we have to realize [44:59] too. They may not not ever get it. And [45:02] another thing is they may not want to [45:04] because they are um you know protecting [45:07] an empire. It's just, you know, it's sad [45:09] because you're you're a human and [45:12] obviously humans should take priority [45:14] over property and things, but [45:16] unfortunately we're seeing [45:18] >> um that they don't do that. So, all [45:21] right. [45:21] >> When I watched this, I just wanted to [45:23] say to them like even though there is so [45:25] much more outside of Bethle, like [45:27] there's so much you can learn, there's [45:29] opportunity. It's just and I was once in [45:31] there and it was my identity. It was my [45:34] everything. this is in this is one of [45:36] the most influential charismatic [45:38] churches on the planet. Um a lot of [45:40] people believe in in in all of this. So [45:43] I I understand but yeah it's um there's [45:46] so much more and yeah [45:48] >> yeah yeah again yep we understand but [45:52] it's really not an excuse because they [45:53] could choose just like you said other [45:55] things and people to prioritize people [45:58] and their feelings. [46:00] >> Yeah. And I think she thinks she's [46:01] saying the right the right things and [46:03] good things, but the whole video is just [46:05] gaslighting. And I think um a lot of [46:07] people see that, especially people who [46:09] are smart and trauma informed, [46:11] >> right? For sure. All right. Ready? [46:15] >> They've heard or oftentimes it's just [46:17] one side of the story that is [46:19] broadcasted and that's really painful. I [46:22] don't know about you, but if I was [46:24] accused of something, I would really [46:26] hope that there would be two sides of [46:28] the story heard by the world and not [46:30] just one, not just my [46:32] >> I just have to stop because Okay, so [46:34] she's again, you already said it. You [46:36] know, they've heard his side for 16 [46:38] years in Danny Silk's book in all the [46:40] DVDs that they sold and made money on [46:42] and profited about their side of the [46:44] story. So this is really reprehensible [46:47] but also um you know [46:51] >> not just someone else's but both [46:53] >> let me just go back there was something [46:56] that she said here hang on [46:58] >> hear what someone who wasn't even [47:00] connected to the experience is saying [47:03] about it or what they've heard or [47:05] oftentimes it's just one side of the [47:07] story that is broadcasted and that's [47:10] really painful. I don't know about you, [47:11] but if I was accused of something, I [47:14] would really hope that there would be [47:16] two sides of the story heard by the [47:18] world and not just one. Not just mine, [47:20] not just someone else's, but [47:22] >> So, and I I said this in in the video [47:25] that I did, Sarah, you probably watched [47:27] it last week. [47:29] >> Yeah. And there's no dispute as to what [47:32] happened. So, you know, it's just like [47:36] um you know, and you you you and I have [47:38] talked about this like a statutory [47:39] crime. It's not that Ben's saying that [47:42] something didn't happen. He is saying it [47:44] happened. So, there's no dispute. [47:47] And the fact that he was your spiritual [47:49] father, there was a ceremony where you [47:53] were adopted into that family, so to [47:56] speak. You were considered part of the [47:58] family. You lived there. He was your [47:59] mentor. He was your leader. He was your [48:01] spiritual father. he was certainly above [48:03] you. You're interning for him. That in [48:06] and of itself in a lot of states now [48:08] because there are states that are [48:09] adopting the the clergy um sexual abuse [48:13] criminal statute there there can't be [48:16] consent to that. So that's how I see [48:19] this. And just because perhaps you know [48:22] California doesn't have that standalone [48:24] statute in my mind [48:25] >> that's how I see this that even if you [48:28] did consent it it still would be wrong. [48:32] It should be criminal. That's how I I [48:34] view it. How do you feel about that? I [48:36] keep thinking about this and so many [48:37] people like it's taken me so long to get [48:39] here but um I'm just like in my mind [48:43] there is no such thing as a consensual [48:46] sexual relationship with your pastor [48:48] with someone who is spiritually over you [48:52] um a father type figure a mentor [48:54] especially with an age gap but I mean in [48:57] any in any way it's just there's no such [48:59] thing as consent and I think even if I [49:02] had seduced Ben or that had in my [49:05] intention or I threw myself at him or [49:08] was like in love with him. It still [49:10] doesn't matter because consent is not a [49:13] thing in this situ in this in this [49:15] story. [49:16] >> That's right. There was no consent. I [49:18] mean you it and there isn't even if you [49:21] did and you didn't. Yeah. But even [49:24] >> I've talked about how I did go along [49:26] with things and why that was you know [49:28] because I was groomed because I was mind [49:30] brainwashed and there's a thing you know [49:33] trauma responses freezing and fawning [49:35] that's still I still do that to this day [49:38] and I just you know I talk myself out of [49:40] things like this is not what I think it [49:42] is and things get worse and not [49:44] listening to myself. So that's I've [49:46] mentioned that that was really hard for [49:48] me to to not take ownership because but [49:51] I mean even even still it's just it's [49:54] it's wrong and it's um it's abuse. [49:58] >> Yeah, it is. All right. Ready? [50:00] >> Mhm. [50:01] >> Both. It was interesting because I've [50:03] been really studying judges this past [50:05] year. Really just in judges and the Lord [50:07] had me just kind of combing over and [50:09] learning, you know, justice and judges. [50:12] And often times in social media era, [50:14] it's pretty wild because oftent times [50:16] whoever is the loudest and the broadest, [50:19] that's what gets the attention. And [50:20] often times the other sides of the story [50:22] are not heard. [50:24] >> She's suggesting here that her friends, [50:27] the perpetrators, um, are their side of [50:30] the story are not getting heard, which [50:32] is it's she's flipped it upside down. [50:34] What do you think? [50:35] >> Yeah. I don't know that when I first [50:37] heard her say that I I was triggered [50:40] into how I felt back then, you know, [50:42] when I brought this story forward and [50:44] everyone came against me and turned on [50:46] me, I I instantly started thinking um [50:50] thinking that way. But yeah, I can you [50:54] remind me? [50:55] >> Yeah, let me go back so that you can [50:57] hear what she said. Hang on one second. [51:00] >> Casted and that's really painful. I [51:02] don't know about you, but if I was [51:04] accused of something, I would really [51:06] hope that there would be two sides of [51:08] the story heard by the world and not [51:11] just one. Not just mine, not just [51:12] someone else's, but both. It was [51:14] interesting because I've been really [51:16] studying judges this past year, really [51:18] just in Judges. And the Lord had me just [51:20] kind of combing over and learning, you [51:22] know, justice and judges. And often [51:24] times in social media era, it's pretty [51:27] wild because oftent times whoever is the [51:29] loudest and the broadest, that's what [51:32] gets the attention. And oftentimes the [51:33] other sides of the story are not heard. [51:35] And [51:36] >> yeah, the loudest and the broadest, you [51:39] know, they're the ones with the [51:40] megaphone. They they've got the [51:41] platform. [51:42] >> They have the influence. We're just the [51:44] little people out here trying to [51:45] survive, man. [51:47] >> Exactly. And it's like I just think [51:49] like, you know, the story I told back in [51:51] 2009 was very complicated and confusing [51:54] and I've had years to figure out what [51:56] actually happened to me. And finally, [51:58] even in the last two months, I've had [51:59] more details and more memories and [52:01] people reminding me now that I'm talking [52:02] about it. Um, and there is evidence that [52:05] I was trying to be heard and no one was [52:07] listening to the big picture, to the [52:09] full story. And I I it was just [52:12] impossible for me to um really get all [52:15] the details out because I was still [52:17] being so protective. My therapist even [52:19] told me like four months ago I was still [52:21] somewhat protective of Bethl. [52:22] >> Um and I still find myself I have to [52:24] because I loved all these people at one [52:26] point in my life and believed in them. [52:27] And I don't think they're all bad. [52:29] >> Um so I have really just been [52:32] >> just remembering more and um Yeah. Yeah. [52:37] >> And that's normal. more things are going [52:40] to come out as you're talking about it, [52:43] you know, have you noticed that? [52:46] >> Yeah, I've had a lot more details come [52:48] back to me. Um, and yeah, lots of little [52:52] things and it's still happening and I [52:54] just I just found more more stuff. So, [52:57] >> yeah. [52:57] >> Yeah. [52:58] >> All right. [52:59] So, um I'm not in any way belittling the [53:03] situation or saying that there's no one, [53:05] you know, that's um innocent in these [53:09] situations. However, I do think that [53:11] it's a pretty impossible situation we [53:13] live in to camp our entire motion as [53:16] humans around something that we're [53:18] hearing on the internet that is again [53:20] only from one side of the [53:22] >> she keeps on reiterating that and you [53:24] know I'll let it play until if you want [53:26] to say anything but that's the problem I [53:29] have with this is that she keeps on [53:30] harping on this internet and two sides [53:32] of the story and you know it they're not [53:35] hearing the full thing full story but we [53:37] have heard it and [53:40] very poor choice of um [53:44] route to go down is what I to say it [53:47] nicely. [53:49] >> I don't know. Yeah. [53:50] >> Yeah. All right. Hang on. [53:52] >> Conversation. So things need to go to a [53:54] legal court and they need to be [53:56] processed and weighed and tried and [53:57] details matter and so in a lot of these [54:00] things that's where they are. As we [54:02] spoke earlier that we are not going to [54:03] be speaking about specific things which [54:05] we spoke about a bit more. So it sounds [54:08] like she was told, right, or she has [54:10] some knowledge that she's not supposed [54:12] to think to speak about certain things [54:14] because she just said that. And so [54:16] that's why this is very strange because [54:19] she's talking about, you know, a legal [54:21] matter. Um, has anyone filed a lawsuit [54:24] yet? I don't know. I don't know. But, [54:27] you know, they probably anticipate it. I [54:29] I know that I've talked to many, many [54:31] people who intend on filing lawsuits. [54:34] Maybe they've gotten a couple. I don't [54:36] know. But um it does seem to me that she [54:39] was told not to speak about certain [54:41] things. Does what what are your thoughts [54:44] about that? [54:46] >> Yeah. Um I don't really have much with [54:48] that, but I don't I don't know what [54:50] she's been told or what's going on. And [54:53] at first when she when I first watched [54:56] this, it was like quite stressful, but [54:59] I'm like, "Yeah, bring it on." That's [55:02] how I feel about it now. Like I think [55:04] it's like it's hilarious. like I'm sorry [55:06] and I'm not trying to be rude, but it's [55:08] like bring it on. I [55:11] >> have my I have what happened to me and [55:13] I'm not lying about it. Yeah, I've [55:15] probably forgotten a lot of details and [55:16] there's probably a lot more that I don't [55:18] remember and that's okay. Like I'm just [55:22] taking it a day at a time. So, [55:24] >> it is and that's well said, Sarah. And [55:26] you know that there's uh probably [55:28] hundreds of thousands of people that are [55:31] supporting you. They've watched your [55:32] testimony. I don't even know what the [55:34] the count is, but it was over 100,000 on [55:36] that first video, right? [55:38] >> Yeah, I think it was up to like 135 last [55:40] time I looked, but Okay. Yeah, it's been [55:43] just amazing support. Just that's what's [55:46] carrying me. Honestly, I think I'd be [55:47] going back to my hidey-hole and not [55:49] talking about any of this if I just if I [55:51] didn't have, you know, even on this [55:53] video, it's 99% support of me and just [55:58] pressing back and challenging them and [56:00] trying to get them to see. And I think [56:02] the majority of people have really good [56:03] intentions. They just want them to get [56:05] it and so so they can heal and grow and [56:08] be better. Like this is what we're we [56:10] all should be doing. It's called life, [56:12] you know. [56:12] >> Yeah. [56:13] >> But yeah, [56:14] >> exactly. And unfortunately, you know, [56:16] again, like if they don't, that's fine [56:18] because the point is is to make sure [56:20] that this doesn't happen to people. So, [56:22] you know, we're here to um try to [56:25] educate people. See, because we're going [56:27] to learn from people's experiences. And [56:29] obviously you're, you know, you're so [56:31] courageous coming forward. You're [56:32] sharing your story. Um, you're very [56:34] transparent. You're very credible. [56:36] You're very believable. Again, people [56:38] are behind you and they they can see the [56:41] atrocity that people can clearly see [56:44] just the the horrible um situation here. [56:48] And the the problem is right here with [56:50] her is that it's continuing and and just [56:54] um she should have bad mistake. Just [56:57] poor mistake. All right. It's weird to [56:59] me because, you know, I've been gone for [57:00] so long, but it's like they're the exact [57:02] same. I was like, "Oh, I wonder if Jen's [57:04] grown up a little bit, but it's like she [57:06] they're all still behaving the same way [57:08] I remember them, you know, 17 years ago, [57:10] 18 years ago." It's like we should be [57:13] growing and evolving, right? Like it's [57:15] just it's kind of [57:16] >> scary to me actually and sad. [57:20] >> That is [57:22] all right. [57:22] >> More than we were supposed to. But [57:24] legally, these things are going to be [57:27] processed and tried in court with both [57:28] sides of the story and all the details. [57:30] And I think that's important as humans [57:32] that we can't ever side with just [57:34] something that we hear from one side of [57:36] the fence. It needs to be processed [57:37] legally probably in a lot of these [57:39] situations. And it's unfortunate. There [57:41] are a lot of failures in leadership. And [57:44] I think the tough thing for me is that [57:46] I've been a leader now for 27 years. And [57:49] I'm not perfect. And I've made mistakes [57:50] in my past, in my present. I will again [57:53] in the future. By the grace of God, they [57:55] will not be big massive things. You [57:57] know, we all have sinned. We have all [57:59] fallen short. He who is without sin cast [58:01] the first stone. And so, I think there's [58:04] a lot of difficult things that people [58:05] are trying to accomplish on the internet [58:08] that need to happen again like Paul [58:09] said, face to face and need to be tried [58:11] and executed and processed in court and [58:14] not just [58:16] >> Not everything goes to court. You [58:18] probably are aware of that, Sarah. [58:20] >> Yeah, it's so silly. like what are you [58:22] talking about girl? I don't know. It's [58:25] it's interesting. [58:29] >> Uh most cases don't go to court. You [58:32] know, as a lawyer, I can tell you that. [58:34] So, um first off, a lot of people, you [58:37] probably know this Sarah, and you, you [58:39] know, experienced this too. A lot of [58:41] people, they don't realize what's [58:42] happened or some that do, they just [58:44] don't come forward. You know, they feel [58:45] like um they're the bad guy or they've [58:48] been made to feel that way. And it's a [58:50] very, very low percentage. And so for [58:52] for cases, you know, the way when people [58:55] talk like that, they're suggesting that, [58:57] oh, you can't talk about anything until [58:59] it goes to court. Well, is that how you [59:01] live your life? That means that in order [59:02] to prove anything that happens in your [59:04] life, you take it to court. It doesn't [59:05] work that way. And just Oh, another [59:08] thing is too that the innocent until [59:10] proven guilty standard. That's in a [59:11] criminal court. [59:13] >> That's a standard that does not apply in [59:15] regular life. So [59:17] >> for me, I've listened to your story, [59:21] right? I believe you 100%. People can [59:24] hear your story, believe you 100%. Or [59:26] they could choose to believe whoever [59:28] they want. Everybody is free to believe [59:30] who they want to believe. That's free [59:33] will. [59:35] >> Yep. So all right. You want me to Is [59:39] there a specific part? Because there's [59:41] going to be about I think 10 more [59:42] minutes on it. I don't I don't really [59:45] Yeah, go ahead and just play it. If if I [59:47] think I'll try to remember stuff. I'm [59:49] just trying to write things down, but my [59:50] brain goes million miles a minute and [59:52] then I can't keep up with it. So, [59:55] >> that's okay. All right, here we go. [59:57] >> Opinions flying around on the internet. [59:59] So, it really is difficult. Obviously, [60:01] there's just some situations that take [60:03] time for all the truth to come out and [60:06] there are some people who just want to [60:09] ruin people's lives. And then right in [60:11] the middle of that, you have intense, [60:13] terrible stuff that has happened to [60:14] people that are victims. [60:17] >> This is bad. She's [60:18] >> It's really bad. [60:19] >> She's saying that you have people that [60:21] want to ruin people's lives. Now, we [60:25] don't know if she's talking about [60:28] survivors or if she's talking about [60:30] podcasters. [60:31] >> You know, in that sense, if she's [60:33] talking about podcasters, name them. You [60:35] know, who's trying to ruin who? So, you [60:37] know, [60:38] >> and that's what because we come along [60:41] podcasters like myself, we come [60:43] alongside people that have decided to [60:45] come forward and tell their stories and [60:48] um you know, that's what we've decided [60:52] to do because [60:54] people like her, they have minimized or [60:58] entirely quashed out the voice of [61:01] someone like you. And and that's what, [61:05] you know, I would love to have a [61:06] conversation with her to to find that [61:08] out. Unfortunately, it's a little vague [61:10] here. You can't figure out who she's [61:12] talking about. But it's problematic [61:15] because you you know, traditionally the [61:19] ones who don't have a voice, they get [61:21] stomped on, they get abused, and then [61:23] when they come out, this is what we're [61:25] seeing. Well, they don't like that [61:27] because it's destructive. [61:28] >> That's why people Sorry. That's why [61:29] people don't That's why people don't [61:31] talk because they're afraid and they're [61:33] afraid of this response. [61:35] >> And I keep I like just want to make it [61:38] very clear that I personally am not [61:40] trying to ruin anyone's lives. Um my [61:43] life has been destroyed for a time. And [61:46] I really just want reform. I want people [61:49] to heal. I want people to be better. And [61:52] from my perspective, that's everyone [61:55] that I've talked to is coming from that [61:57] same stance. They want things to change. [61:59] They want reform. And when people start [62:01] talking, you should listen. And I'm [62:03] trying to tell the truth. And so are a [62:05] lot of people. It's not like we're [62:06] attacking them or trying to burn the [62:08] house down. I really truly do not want [62:09] that. I want people to heal. I want [62:12] people to grow. And I want people to be [62:14] better. And you need to take care of [62:16] your victims and at least listen or try. [62:18] Like [62:19] >> yeah, [62:19] >> that's really what I care about. So [62:22] >> y [62:22] >> that's all I have with that. [62:24] >> Okay. [62:25] >> At the same time, there's a movie called [62:26] The Help. And I don't like to endorse [62:28] movies, but there's a very important [62:30] scene in the movie called The Help when [62:31] she's making a pie, a chocolate pie, and [62:34] she mixes in poop into that pie. And you [62:37] can't tell poop from pie. And I think, [62:39] you know, Revelation says that there's a [62:41] spirit of the accuser of the brethren. [62:44] And that is in Revelation. And [62:45] Revelation is a pretty intense book. But [62:47] the accuser of the brethren spirit, I [62:50] think, is mixed in a lot of very [62:52] legitimate things that have not been [62:54] okay, have not been acceptable, and they [62:57] need to be processed and tried, and [63:00] there needs to be actual godly justice, [63:02] which is a much bigger thing than [63:04] someone just giving their opinion. [63:06] >> So this analogy with the poop pie, that [63:09] was troubling to me. I think that [63:13] she could have done a better job. That [63:15] was a poor analogy because the way that [63:17] I took it and you tell me what you [63:19] think. Um, she again, she could be [63:23] talking about someone like yourself, a [63:25] survivor, or she could be talking about [63:26] a podcaster. It's, you know, they they [63:29] dub us the the accuser of the brethren. [63:32] And so she's saying that poop that it's [63:36] intertwined with poop. I mean, you could [63:39] use other words for it. So basically [63:41] lies, basically junk, you know, whatever [63:44] you want to call it is intertwined with [63:47] a a victim and them coming forward with [63:49] their story or a podcaster platforming [63:52] them. That was my impression and it just [63:55] didn't sit well with me. What are your [63:57] thoughts, Sarah? [63:58] >> Yeah, I don't really know what she's [64:00] talking about or if she's talking to me [64:02] specifically or other victims [64:03] specifically or podcasters. Who knows? [64:06] Um, but saying these things, I I just [64:09] really hope that they understand that [64:10] these the way they're approaching this, [64:12] the things that Jen is saying and a lot [64:14] of others is retraumatizing for [64:16] survivors, first of all. And then she [64:19] talks about the accuser of the brethren. [64:21] And I'm sorry, I'm still working on [64:23] rebuilding my faith. And I'm not, you [64:25] know, completely uh I don't know [64:27] everything, but I believe that the [64:29] accuser of the brethren [64:31] portion in the Bible is talking about [64:33] Satan. And so I'm like, are you calling [64:35] everybody like Satan? Because they're [64:37] trying to speak truth and be heard and [64:39] heal. [64:40] >> Um, it's just abusive, honestly, to to [64:43] say those types of things. Um, that's [64:45] all I have with that because I really [64:47] don't know. I don't know what she what [64:49] she's specifically referring to, but [64:50] it's it's weird. [64:52] >> Yep. No, thanks for that. opinion or [64:55] pulling facts off the internet. But we [64:56] just need to be very careful what we [64:58] believe as Christians that we're not [65:00] just hearing little details and forming [65:02] our opinion around that. But really like [65:04] we would all want that the sides of the [65:06] story on both the accused and the [65:08] accuser that both sides would be heard [65:10] and processed. I think that's what we [65:12] would all want to happen if we were [65:13] accused of something. [65:14] >> That's a good point. And it's [65:15] interesting that you know back when Paul [65:18] told the Corinthian church, "Cast that [65:20] guy out of the church. He's in sin. [65:22] Horrible sin, worse than the pagans." [65:24] and give his body over, hand him over to [65:25] Satan. Right. That was Paul. Yeah. Very [65:28] intense and executing church discipline [65:31] very clearly, like you said, justice uh [65:33] being done. However, that was Paul [65:36] talking to his group of people that he [65:38] knew, whereas the interesting thing you [65:40] brought up is now everybody's looking at [65:44] all these other churches and kind of [65:45] throwing their opinions at those [65:47] churches. [65:48] >> See, and and that's just vagaries right [65:50] there. That's not what's happening. [65:52] people that, you know, podcasters, [65:54] they're talking about specific things. [65:56] So, I think that he is um running a muck [66:00] with this as well, unfortunately. [66:02] Um, did you catch that? [66:04] >> Yeah. [66:05] >> How he's lumping them all in. [66:09] >> All right. Anything else or I'll move on [66:12] because [66:12] >> Well, she she does keep saying like we [66:15] need to hear all sides of the story. And [66:17] I think we already said this, but like [66:18] we've been hearing their side of the [66:20] story. Yeah. There's probably more [66:21] details, things that I forgot, things [66:23] that they remember and I don't. Um, but [66:25] we've been listening to their globally, [66:28] their teachings in churches, their [66:30] writing books, their their podcast, [66:32] their sermons, um, very loudly for this [66:36] whole time. And now we're finally [66:37] hearing or even in the case of Shawn BS, [66:40] like you've we haven't really heard from [66:42] Sean, but you're hearing from victims [66:43] and that's their side of the story. [66:45] finally talking like like me like I'm [66:47] finally [66:49] >> saying my side of the story and it's [66:51] probably things you've never heard [66:52] before because I never told it before [66:54] and now I am. [66:54] >> Exactly. [66:56] >> And it's crazy. [66:57] >> No, I appreciate that. And and is she [67:00] talking about Shawn BS? That's a good [67:02] point, Sarah. [67:03] >> Like is she talking about [67:05] >> It feels to me like she's more talking [67:07] about her friends. Um but I don't really [67:10] know. I think you know she brings up [67:11] Shawn in the beginning. Um, who knows [67:15] though because she isn't really giving [67:17] specifics. [67:18] >> Yeah, we didn't go over that, but if [67:20] anybody out there has watched it, she [67:21] referred to Shawn BS as just a guest. [67:24] You remember that? [67:26] >> Yeah. And that's funny because, you [67:27] know, we all know that he was treated [67:29] like royalty and like family to Bethl. I [67:31] was around for that. I saw that. I was [67:33] around when Sean first started coming to [67:35] Bethl. Um, I think she's just trying to [67:39] It really feels to me I know she has an [67:41] album coming out. It feels like she's [67:42] trying to save face in a little bit in a [67:45] in a little bit of a way and then [67:47] distance herself from, you know, I'm not [67:50] Oh, yeah. I'm It feels like she's trying [67:52] to save herself in a way. [67:54] >> Oh, for sure. Yeah. [67:56] >> Protect herself, I guess. [67:58] >> Yeah. [67:58] >> But I don't know. [68:00] >> I'm sorry. Say that again. [68:02] >> Sorry. I just said I'm not Jen. I don't [68:04] really know. I don't know her. I don't I [68:06] can only assume. We can all only assume [68:08] and interpret what we are interpreting. [68:12] All right. So, [68:13] >> whereas what really should be happening [68:14] is the hopefully godly leaders of that [68:17] particular church needs to have that [68:18] hard hand of justice in the situation [68:21] and hopefully they're truly being [68:23] obedient to God and doing the right [68:25] thing. But the interesting thing now is [68:27] like you said, the spirit of accusation [68:29] of the accuser of the brethren is kind [68:31] of coming. [68:32] >> I'm sorry, but the flipping of the hair [68:35] is just [68:35] >> I know [68:38] >> I mean, I get it. I'm fidgety, too. It's [68:40] It's awkward, but [68:41] >> I mean, we all are, but you know, it's [68:43] it's I just I don't know. All right, [68:46] I'll go [68:46] >> from the outside of the church where the [68:48] situation is better known. But yeah, I [68:50] guess it makes me want to make sure that [68:51] the leadership of every church is [68:53] actually listening to God and doing the [68:55] right thing and not just kind of [68:57] glossing over or missing. But anyway, [68:59] it's a very, like you said, very [69:00] complicated situation we're in. [69:02] >> It is. and and you know there with with [69:04] being a leader you know there's a lot [69:05] that's happening that we can't and don't [69:08] want to talk about on a public platform [69:10] especially where discipline is happening [69:12] when someone does something wrong the [69:14] thing I know to be very true about is [69:16] that they deal with it and they have [69:19] action you know one of the main accused [69:21] people was not even on our staff it was [69:24] just someone who was a guest at our [69:26] conferences [69:27] >> this is where she talks about it but [69:28] that they deal with it right away [69:32] >> is Is that your impression, Sarah? [69:34] >> I think they think they're doing the [69:35] right thing and they're trying, but it's [69:37] just they're not doing it correctly. Um, [69:42] but I don't know. I think that they're [69:43] just so obsessed with each other and in [69:47] love with their their identity of Bethl [69:49] and this institution that they're they [69:52] just aren't seeing it right and they're [69:54] not getting it. and they probably can't. [69:57] >> And I can put myself in their shoes [69:58] because I was once there, you know, I'd [70:01] be like [70:02] >> I'd also be saying like, "Yeah, but has [70:04] anybody had any bad experiences with [70:05] this person in the decade we've been [70:08] working with them?" Or, you know, like [70:10] they're so nice and they're so generous [70:11] and they're so kind and they're [70:13] everything we want to be. They're this [70:15] like shining example that you It's just [70:20] It feels to me like it's so much their [70:22] identity that they can't really see what [70:25] they need to be seeing. And I don't know [70:26] if they can. And I hope they can, but [70:29] >> Wow. Yeah. That's good. [70:31] >> And again, Bethl didn't even have to go [70:34] out of their way to be the [70:35] disciplinarian and to confront and they [70:39] didn't even have to do that because they [70:40] were on our staff. But I applaud and [70:42] commend that they actually did that. And [70:44] now it really has like to your point [70:45] earlier, has it changed you? Yes, these [70:48] situations have changed us as a church [70:50] for sure. Because we are much more aware [70:54] of when we empower someone on our global [70:57] stage that we actually then need to [71:00] carry the responsibility and weight of [71:02] if that person goes off and is not the [71:05] person that we had originally. what [71:08] she's what she says here. It would [71:11] suggest that something else like they're [71:12] paying attention to to other people that [71:16] they're platforming. [71:18] >> I think she's talking about Yeah, I [71:20] think she's talking about Shawn here. [71:22] Okay. She's saying he changed, but he [71:24] was always this person. That's how I see [71:26] it. Um I think that he's always been [71:28] this this way. And I'm Yeah, I don't [71:31] think that anyone changed. I think [71:34] they're just aware now, [71:37] >> right? They've been made aware [71:40] >> speaking. Yeah. Because people are [71:42] podcasting and putting it on the [71:44] internet, they're being made aware. [71:46] >> Yeah. [71:47] >> And it's the right thing to be doing. [71:49] So, [71:50] >> yeah. [71:52] >> Endorsed. If their life and their [71:53] choices or their sin has now taken them [71:56] from the position that we enthroned them [71:58] at, I know that's an intense phrase, [72:00] only Jesus is enthroned, but placed them [72:02] in a form of leadership. then we [72:04] actually do need to be pastors and even [72:07] though they're not on our staff, we [72:08] actually do need to care for the sheep [72:10] and if someone feels like they're a [72:12] wolf, we need to, you know, be more [72:13] mindful of that. And it's very hard [72:15] because these people are our friends. [72:17] And so, again, you don't [72:19] >> So, I mean, it just sounds like she's [72:20] saying, but it's so hard, you know, [72:22] yeah, we have to take care of the sheep [72:24] and, you know, get and identify the the [72:26] wolf and but the wolves are our friends. [72:30] So, it's just bizarre. It's bizarre [72:32] speak. It is um it's just another [72:35] example of how they're not they're not [72:37] listening to the people who need to be [72:39] listened to. They're protecting each [72:41] other um and defending each other [72:44] instead. [72:45] >> Yeah. I mean, how how hard would it be? [72:48] Yeah. Okay. I understand that's my [72:50] friend, but I'm going to do what's [72:51] right. [72:52] >> Yeah. You do what's right. It's called [72:53] integrity. You know, it may not feel [72:55] good and it may not be what you want, [72:57] but it's the right thing to do. you [72:59] know, [73:00] >> I'm just not really seeing true like [73:01] integrity with any of this and [73:04] >> it's really I I'm It's upsetting to a [73:08] lot of people. [73:11] >> Yeah. Are you doing okay? Does this [73:13] trigger? [73:14] >> Yeah. I mean, it's all hard. It's none [73:16] of this is fun. Um but it's necessary [73:19] and I'm happy to do it. I'm really But [73:21] yeah, it's hard. It's hard. [73:24] >> I know. I know it is. And again, all we [73:27] can do is encourage you and encourage [73:29] those that are going through this [73:31] because there are way more people out [73:34] there for you guys than against you. And [73:37] I think that people are [73:38] >> Oh, yeah. [73:39] >> because of what's going on, not just [73:40] with Bethl, like with all of the [73:42] exposures. People are seeing that, you [73:45] know, and they're waking up. And some [73:48] people even, you know, were against [73:50] people talking about this and then they [73:52] come back and say, you know, now I'm [73:53] seeing really what's going on. And it's [73:55] really important for people to see it as [73:57] well. [74:01] >> All right. You ready? [74:02] >> Yeah. For the sake of [74:03] >> want to just all of a sudden just get on [74:05] a platform and say that, hey, this [74:07] person's a wolf. But it did take time [74:09] and prosecution to even figure out that [74:11] it wasn't just one claim or two claims. [74:13] Oh, it was multiple claims. Okay. Yeah. [74:15] this has gotten to a place where we need [74:16] to now talk about this even though [74:18] they're not on our staff. So, it kind of [74:19] brings up a bigger question. Does every [74:22] church like now have to get up on a [74:24] stage when someone does something with [74:26] their life, it's unacceptable? Like, is [74:27] that now what we all do? And Bethl's [74:30] decided that that is if we're going to [74:31] give someone a global stage and they [74:34] decide to turn into a different person [74:35] or be unrepentant especially, then we're [74:37] going to get up and talk about it. Now, [74:39] that's very different situation than the [74:40] other situations when you have someone [74:42] who's accused of something from a very [74:44] long time ago. You have that now people [74:46] are like, "Oh, you know, what did you do [74:48] about it?" Well, if you read anything [74:50] about the situation of people who have [74:52] been on our staff, they were corrected. [74:54] They were repentant. They did walk it [74:56] out. And so, obviously, [74:59] >> see, the problem with this, if she's [75:01] referring to Ben, well, he didn't repent [75:03] of exactly what happened. And that's the [75:05] problem. [75:07] >> Yeah. I think if you're repenting of [75:10] >> Sorry, Sarah. Go ahead. [75:11] >> I'm sorry. I thought you were done [75:12] talking. Go ahead. [75:14] >> No, I think I think they think he did [75:15] and he thinks he did, but there's [75:17] >> there's so much more to the story and um [75:20] I think it's really important to [75:22] acknowledge that. [75:23] >> Yeah. [75:23] >> And um their idea of restoring him, you [75:27] know, he was still working. He Yeah. He [75:29] was demoted to like an admin role, but [75:31] he was still working in the school. I [75:33] had to see it every day. And then, you [75:36] know, they talk about within a year he [75:38] was back, you know, in school ministry [75:39] as a pastor again. But even before that, [75:42] just a couple months later, he was [75:44] speaking in a prophetic conference. Um, [75:46] he was a part of a prophetic like kind [75:49] of group that I had began with him that [75:52] Benny Johnson took over. Um, she was [75:54] going to allow me to help her with that. [75:56] She had literally told me she was going [75:59] to walk with me and she was she was with [76:01] me in all of this and she wanted me to [76:02] help. And then Chris took it over over [76:06] Benny and then when had been there and [76:08] because Ben was there I couldn't be [76:10] there and that was just two months [76:11] later. It was January. I just found a [76:14] bunch of this information and was [76:15] reminded of all of this. So then talking [76:18] about how it was this beautiful [76:19] restoration and I'm sure it was and I'm [76:21] really grateful that there was some [76:23] amount of healing for them. Absolutely. [76:25] Um I always wanted that but it wasn't it [76:29] wasn't right. you know, it wasn't um [76:32] this beautiful restoration story because [76:36] uh my life was destroyed, [76:38] >> right? And they weren't telling the [76:39] truth. And what you were just referring [76:41] to, so when Ben came out, because he had [76:43] to admit, you know, um but not entirely [76:47] truthful about it. Yeah. He was taken [76:50] out of the ministry school. Is that what [76:52] he was taken out of? But then he was put [76:54] into an administrative role, but he was [76:56] still talking at conferences. [76:59] Yeah, he as far as I what I have [77:02] recently remembered in seeing this old [77:04] email um to Benny uh that he so he was a [77:09] pastor in first year school of ministry [77:11] and part of his consequences while he [77:14] healed was to be demoted to like an [77:16] administrative role within within the [77:19] school ministry first year. Um, and he [77:21] talks about that in some of his podcasts [77:23] about how he felt ashamed of the way he [77:27] was not a pastor anymore. And then I saw [77:30] an email recently me asking I think [77:32] actually I was asking Danny, you know, [77:34] why has been speaking in the prophetic [77:37] conference, which would have probably [77:38] been late winter, early spring, um, just [77:41] a few months after all this stuff came [77:43] out with me. Um, and then he was [77:46] participating in a home group that I had [77:48] helped start that, you know, I had a lot [77:51] of hope when Benny told me she wanted to [77:53] keep me in that and help her. It gave me [77:56] a lot of hope that I could still stay [77:58] connected. Just similar to like me [77:59] getting the job in the coffee shop. I [78:01] was trying to stay I was trying to stay [78:04] like, you know, here I am and not [78:06] disappear and still, you know, be [78:08] myself. Um, but then he was allowed to [78:11] be a part of that group and I was pushed [78:13] away. So those are just a few little [78:16] examples that kind of support. Anyways, [78:20] >> yeah. Yeah. Is it okay if we kind of [78:23] like just talk about some last thoughts [78:25] because I know that we're you know [78:26] pressed for time. Um unless there was [78:29] Okay. Because I can take this down. [78:31] >> I have like 15 20 minutes. [78:33] >> You do? Okay. [78:34] >> I have a main situation that's being [78:36] processed. [78:37] >> Say that again. Sarah, [78:38] >> I said I'm okay. It's fine. But whatever [78:40] whatever you think. [78:41] >> Yeah. I just want to make sure because I [78:42] know your plans so I didn't want to [78:44] infringe on that. But yeah, that was a [78:46] good point because I remember you [78:47] telling me about him still being active [78:51] and the way that you know you just said [78:53] that you were involved in these groups [78:55] and then because Ben was still engaging [78:58] in it. Chris kind of was it Chris who [79:01] kind of said it wouldn't be good for you [79:03] to be in it or how did that happen? [79:06] Benny told me that Chris one had been [79:09] there in this prophetic group and that I [79:12] had started with Ben. She told me that [79:15] well I didn't I I found out they were [79:17] meeting without me and it was really [79:19] really hard for me but I worked it I [79:21] worked it out and eventually asked Benny [79:23] about it. Um and she was surprised that [79:25] no one had told me. She apologized and [79:28] said that Chris kind of took it over and [79:29] wanted to be overseeing it instead and [79:32] he wanted Ben there and he felt it was [79:34] inappropriate for me to be there if Ben [79:36] was there. [79:37] >> And that was the email that I just [79:39] recently found and now I'm remembering [79:41] these things. [79:41] >> Yeah. [79:42] >> Yeah. And Benny Benny was really [79:44] supportive of me. She obviously loved [79:46] Ben and had been around him since he was [79:49] a little boy. But when I told her [79:50] everything that happened, she told me [79:52] that she was going to walk with me and [79:53] that she she was going to be with me in [79:55] it. And she did she really did support [79:57] me for a time. [80:00] >> Did that did something happen where it [80:02] changed? [80:03] >> Yeah, I think it was around the time of [80:06] this group starting and then I start [80:08] feeling like I can't trust anybody. So, [80:10] I start just to see myself um and really [80:13] just keeping close with people that I [80:14] really knew I could trust. um which was [80:17] hard because I really I really loved her [80:18] and I loved a lot of people and she was [80:20] always really good to me um like a [80:23] mentor in a way and so it I think it was [80:26] just me needing to I didn't trust anyone [80:29] and I really needed to keep trustworthy [80:31] people in my inner circle so [80:34] >> and that's wise [80:38] >> I'm gonna keep going [80:39] >> court because one story is now a bit [80:42] different than the original story and [80:44] again we're not going to talk about [80:45] details of that But it's going [80:47] >> okay. I have to comment on that because [80:48] she is talking about you there. [80:50] >> Mhm. [80:51] >> Yeah. [80:52] >> And then and then she throws out the but [80:54] we're not going to talk about details. [80:56] And if anybody is out there, they know [81:00] that when you're in a situation like you [81:02] were in Sarah, you know, abused by [81:05] somebody who is over you. And then [81:07] you've got Danny Sel because I remember [81:09] you telling me that Danny Silk um was [81:12] kind of telling you this is an affair [81:13] and nobody's going to think otherwise. [81:15] these these are the leaders that you're [81:17] looking up to and they're saying that [81:19] stuff over you. [81:20] >> That must put you in a really really [81:22] hard position. [81:24] >> Yeah. And it's evident in some of these [81:25] emails that I'm uncovering from that [81:27] time of I'm really trying to be heard. [81:29] I'm really trying to figure out what [81:32] happened with me, but it was just way [81:33] too late. Um, and then I'm clearly being [81:38] silenced and told, you know, this is [81:40] what it is. And I was also very obedient [81:43] and really just wanted to make things [81:45] right and do the right thing. So I kind [81:47] of just did whatever they wanted and [81:49] listen to them and eventually just [81:51] completely stopped trying because I was [81:53] getting so like I was I was um very [81:57] messy too. I was so like emailing and [82:00] just trying to be heard and just kind of [82:01] all over the place and spiraling and [82:03] spinning and sorting out what had [82:05] happened to me. And that's pretty clear [82:07] in some of these emails that I'm finding [82:08] that I had forgotten about, [82:10] >> right? It's pretty It's pretty sad [82:12] actually, but [82:13] >> it is cuz you loved the family. You've [82:15] shared that many times that you loved [82:17] Ben, his wife, and his family. [82:20] >> I love everybody. Yeah. [82:22] >> You know, and and even Jen says it's an [82:24] impossible situation. Well, it's an [82:25] impossible situation that they put you [82:27] in as well. And um you know and and [82:32] another thing is they they're just not [82:33] willing to get educated about what this [82:36] looks like [82:37] >> and and trying to frame it as if the [82:39] story has changed. No, the story has not [82:42] changed at all. This is just um what [82:45] happens with trauma. [82:46] >> It is. And I know that now, you know, [82:48] and I I work with a lot of people who [82:51] have, you know, a lot of trauma and PTSD [82:53] and it it's it's very very very [82:56] complicated. So, I I think that they [82:58] should probably do more studying and [83:00] research and get I hope that they're [83:02] truly getting educated. I've seen little [83:04] things like maybe Bill said that they're [83:06] or Chris or somebody said that they're [83:08] working on getting trauma education and [83:10] I don't know. I really hope so. So, then [83:12] they can maybe understand this a little [83:14] bit better. [83:15] >> Yeah. [83:16] >> To be processed, the two sides of the [83:18] story and shaken down with receipts and [83:21] timestamps to bring accuracy to those [83:24] allegations. And so, again, that's the [83:26] best we can do. But the best part about [83:27] that story is it was repented for and it [83:29] was walked out really beautifully 16 [83:32] years ago. And so I think that yeah, [83:34] it's a mixed bag of leadership when [83:36] we're doing our best, but I do stand [83:38] behind even though they haven't done it [83:40] perfectly. And again, there was a lot of [83:41] things they would do differently now as [83:43] a staff, our leadership team, what we [83:44] have learned and what we have come to. [83:47] They are a very trusted, beautiful group [83:49] of humans that are leading Bethl Church. [83:51] It's not just one or two. It's a very [83:53] beautiful group of about 15 on the [83:56] senior leadership team and how they're [83:58] working together and their desire for [83:59] holiness is really really beautiful and [84:02] that we don't let anything slip under [84:04] the carpet. We to the best of our [84:05] ability I'm not on the senior leadership [84:07] team. I run Bethl Music which is a [84:08] separate organization that that serves [84:10] obviously a local church that God has [84:12] called us to. And again, God called me [84:15] to serve at Bethl 27 years ago, not [84:17] because of who was leading it, but [84:19] because it was a move of God and it was [84:20] a holy people and in a church and a [84:23] movement that I don't think is perfect. [84:25] I don't agree with every single thing [84:26] that's ever been said from Bethl, but I [84:29] do believe in the work and the movement [84:30] that God is doing and that's why I'm [84:32] there week in and week out. Any thoughts [84:36] on this? It's really focusing on this [84:38] movement in Bethl and the beautiful [84:39] leaders and you know where's the the the [84:43] attention to the beautiful people that [84:46] were harmed. [84:48] >> Yeah, I think I mean we've already hit [84:52] hit it quite I mean I'm like I don't [84:54] really have much more to say. Um, I [84:57] think that they think they're doing the [84:58] right thing and that it is this [85:00] beautiful restoration story and now [85:02] we're finding out that there's more to [85:03] the story and [85:06] >> they're not. I don't know. [85:08] >> Yeah. [85:08] >> Yeah. All right. [85:10] >> I think my ear my earbuds are going to [85:12] die soon. I just heard this. So, [85:14] >> all right. [85:15] >> Might have to take them out [85:17] >> and then it's going to mess up the the [85:19] reverb. So, I'm gonna [85:20] >> I don't know about you, but I'm pretty [85:22] much done with Jen. [85:24] >> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. [85:25] >> Is there any last thought on like just [85:28] just overall impression because you and [85:30] I have talked about that that video? [85:33] >> Oh, it's just like I mean we talked a [85:35] little bit about what it was like. I [85:36] mean Jenna was a landlord and I've had [85:38] you know a few people come. Do you want [85:40] to do we do you want to talk about any [85:42] of that or [85:43] >> you don't you know it's up to you if you [85:44] want to share. You know it's up to you. [85:46] I know you knew her. Um you know I know [85:49] you said that there are some things that [85:51] you know you did make a comment. You're [85:53] like well Jen is Jen. That's kind of [85:55] like what she was like. You hope that [85:57] she matured, but you know what you saw [86:00] is kind of what you experienced with her [86:02] when you were there 16 plus years ago. [86:05] >> Yeah. And I I don't want to like I guess [86:07] it's not really important. I don't want [86:09] to like throw her under the bus because [86:11] I loved Jen and I still love her. I [86:13] still believe in all these people. I'm [86:14] not trying to like harm anybody, but um [86:17] I have a lot to say, but yeah. Okay. [86:20] >> No, it's clear that you care about these [86:22] people and you have a heart for people. [86:24] I mean, that's evident totally. And um [86:27] you're very cautious and you um just [86:31] like you said, you're not going to want [86:32] to throw anybody under the bus. But the [86:34] bottom line is, you know, what I see is [86:37] that they uh really really focused on [86:40] the leaders and they're, you know, [86:41] trying to dub this as a beautiful thing [86:43] because there was repentance. But that [86:45] is not the entire story. And your story [86:48] is going to be heard. It's going to be [86:49] heard again, you know, because it's [86:51] important. And um it's right for people [86:54] to hear the truth and what actually [86:57] happened because if not, if you didn't [86:59] come out, then they're going to be stuck [87:00] with this lie that they have been um [87:03] selling for, you know, over a decade. [87:06] >> Yeah. [87:07] >> So, so Sarah, [87:09] >> I keep bumping the camera [87:10] >> and what? [87:12] >> I keep bumping the camera and it's it's [87:14] all shaking. [87:14] >> Oh, and it's shaking us. Okay, I can [87:17] still see you. We've got the video on. [87:19] But um I do appreciate you coming on [87:22] because I know people, you know, I've in [87:25] other videos people are asking about [87:27] Sarah, what's going on with Sarah. So [87:29] any like how are you doing? I know you [87:31] said you're doing much better. You said [87:32] that in the beginning. And living your [87:35] life and any last thoughts that you want [87:37] to share before we end? [87:40] >> Yeah, I it's been pretty crazy, but I'm [87:45] like I said, I'm doing overall very [87:46] good. I had bad days. I had really good [87:49] days. I the first couple weeks I was [87:51] kind of just like riding this high [87:52] because it felt so good to talk. [87:54] >> Um and I've just like I'm finding more [87:57] and more freedom in using my voice [87:58] again. I'm not as shut down as I was. [88:01] >> Um it's just amazing hearing other [88:03] people's stories and being able to [88:04] support them, trying to do the right [88:06] thing. I've had rough times. I've like [88:10] probably 95% of the feedback and [88:12] comments and support is all positive. [88:14] There's a few negative things that I've [88:16] seen and it's just it I understand. It's [88:19] okay. I expected that and I can handle [88:20] it because I've already been through [88:22] this 16 and 17 years ago. Um, and I know [88:26] who I am and I know I'm not a liar and [88:28] I'm not manipulating. I'm just trying to [88:31] speak the truth. And you know, people [88:34] have said things like, "Oh, she's [88:35] lying." Even my own family. I have a [88:39] kind of sort of close family that um [88:43] somebody still works at Bethl and [88:45] watched my podcast and was worried that [88:46] I was lying and called my family to ask [88:49] about it and they're like, "No, she's [88:51] not lying. This is this is what happened [88:53] cuz my family was around for all of this [88:55] and saw it and has been helping me [88:57] remember stuff too." Um but overall just [89:00] really just amazing support and [89:02] positivity and that that support group [89:05] I'm in has been phenomenal. um really [89:08] really good intelligent informed people [89:11] in there. Um I love that and it's just [89:14] honestly the if you even read people's [89:17] comments like there's an occasional [89:20] negative one here and there but it's [89:22] like 99% all in support of me and just [89:24] like trying to get them to see things [89:26] too, you know? So, [89:27] >> right. [89:27] >> Yeah, it's it's been really really good. [89:30] And like I said, if nothing comes of [89:32] this, at least at least I'm reclaiming [89:34] my story and my voice and trying to help [89:36] other people do that. And I hope that [89:39] continues. [89:41] It is. And your voice is a very [89:43] important one. And just, you know, like [89:45] I said, the humility is just so evident [89:48] and your heart for people is so evident [89:50] and I'm just I'm really glad that you [89:53] are sharing and that you continue to [89:54] share and that you're continuing to heal [89:57] and we're all here for you. [89:59] >> Thank you. you've been super helpful, [90:01] too. It's been so fun to get to know you [90:03] and talk to you and chat. It's like it's [90:05] so easy to talk to you. [90:07] >> Thank you. It is with you, too. And I [90:08] just love our chats. You know, we we [90:11] talk all the time. We're texting. So, I [90:13] do appreciate this relationship that we [90:16] have and I know that um I I'm pretty [90:20] sure people are going to be glad that [90:22] you came on and that they heard from you [90:24] and that you're doing well. So, thanks, [90:26] Sarah. [90:26] >> Thanks, Vanessa. And honestly, thank you [90:28] everybody for for real the reading the [90:31] comments. I keep I keep going through [90:33] them and it's just healing. So, thank [90:35] you. Good. Good. All right. So, stay on [90:37] for a second. I'm gonna end the [90:38] recording and I know you have plans, so [90:40] give me one second. Okay. [90:42] >> All right.  📄 **Full text:** ![[Full Document Contents/Articles/Bethel Scandal Sarah Sets the Record Straight.md|Bethel Scandal: Sarah Sets the Record Straight by YouTube]] ## Highlights - technology to tell them about the abuse that you endured? >> Um not really. I I don't know him and I think I'm sure he's a nice man and I'm sure he cares. At least I hope so. Um but I feel like it was a little bit it would be inappropriate for me to reach back out. And also, you know, I've been so far removed from Bethl for so long and really gone through a lot of healing over my time there that the idea of really talking to anybody closely like ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kphf1tc52n37wv1pnhvj9ag7)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - you know, I printed out everything that you shared with me, and I know we're not going to be able to get to everything, but um I did want to address that. And also, I wanted to clear this up really quickly because after, you know, the videos that went up with your testimony, some people said in comments, I've seen it. Um, even in some of the videos that I did, people said that, "Oh, Sarah was up on stage when when Ben um, you know, apologized or what whatever he did early ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kphf1tc9mxfbgfj7c7jyff2f)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - one-on-one experiences that I had with Ben, she watched it all. And he was very, he targeted me more than anyone. And I wasn't married, the other two interns were, so maybe that was part of it. Um, but it was just like extremely supportive for her to send me that and just more healing and then we've become friends again. So, it's really awesome. Yeah, >> it is. Do you mind if I share some of the things that she said? Can I do that? >> Yeah. Yes. I have it here by not >> I have it highlighted. Um, she was ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kphf1tcdg3p7f7fp554eh8xr)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - Bethl leadership. You know, these are like >> right >> these are the elite um the elite of evangelical Christianity in a way. So, you just trusted them and listened to everything they said. And >> I mean definitely if you had red flags or weren't certain about things, it it was pretty easy to just shelf it. You know, maybe I don't really connect to that, but you could shelf some things. But we everything Ben said was like something we wanted to listen to. >> She also said that um talking about you that Sarah's account of the way that Ben ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kphf1tch7w3zyc3crf476acn)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - connected to the experience is saying about it or what they've heard or oftentimes it's just one side of the story that is broadcasted and that's really painful. I don't know about you, but if I was accused of something, I would really hope that there would be two sides of the story heard by the world and not just one. Not just mine, not just someone else's, but >> So, and I I said this in in the video that I did, Sarah, you probably watched it last week. >> Yeah. And there's no dispute as to what ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kphf1tcncrqwmrmf4h5b4fzk)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - people reminding me now that I'm talking about it. Um, and there is evidence that I was trying to be heard and no one was listening to the big picture, to the full story. And I I it was just impossible for me to um really get all the details out because I was still being so protective. My therapist even told me like four months ago I was still somewhat protective of Bethl. >> Um and I still find myself I have to because I loved all these people at one point in my life and believed in them. And I don't think they're all bad. >> Um so I have really just been ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kphf1tcs2s0dp0v52pe7stjk)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - talking about or if she's talking to me specifically or other victims specifically or podcasters. Who knows? Um, but saying these things, I I just really hope that they understand that these the way they're approaching this, the things that Jen is saying and a lot of others is retraumatizing for survivors, first of all. And then she talks about the accuser of the brethren. And I'm sorry, I'm still working on rebuilding my faith. And I'm not, you know, completely uh I don't know everything, but I believe that the accuser of the brethren ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kphf1tcx7t20hmnptj4wteqq)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - writing books, their their podcast, their sermons, um, very loudly for this whole time. And now we're finally hearing or even in the case of Shawn BS, like you've we haven't really heard from Sean, but you're hearing from victims and that's their side of the story. finally talking like like me like I'm finally >> saying my side of the story and it's probably things you've never heard before because I never told it before and now I am. >> Exactly. >> And it's crazy. >> No, I appreciate that. And and is she ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kphf1td2hcsrnv1159zsmaea)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - >> And again, Bethl didn't even have to go out of their way to be the disciplinarian and to confront and they didn't even have to do that because they were on our staff. But I applaud and commend that they actually did that. And now it really has like to your point earlier, has it changed you? Yes, these situations have changed us as a church for sure. Because we are much more aware of when we empower someone on our global stage that we actually then need to ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kphf1td6qrqbdrakpybg4jvb)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - that when you're in a situation like you were in Sarah, you know, abused by somebody who is over you. And then you've got Danny Sel because I remember you telling me that Danny Silk um was kind of telling you this is an affair and nobody's going to think otherwise. these these are the leaders that you're looking up to and they're saying that stuff over you. >> That must put you in a really really hard position. >> Yeah. And it's evident in some of these emails that I'm uncovering from that time of I'm really trying to be heard. I'm really trying to figure out what ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kphf1tdaw8rgjbypkzsk3301)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted