Breaking Change: Snow Plows, Connectors, and the WORLD  🔗 **Source:** [Breaking Change: Snow Plows, Connectors, and the WORLD](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR3hB-ns18w) ## 📺 Video  ## Highlights - For the first time ever, over 50% of WordPress websites are in languages other than English. --- # 📝 Full Notes (Deep-Read Analysis) # 🏷️ Title: Breaking Change: Snow Plows, Connectors, and the WORLD ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Explore multilingual plugin development opportunities — WordPress now 50%+ non-English #wordpress - [H2] Review AI connector implementation strategy — WordPress 6.9 integrating major AI providers #ai-integrations - [H3] Consider civic tech applications for local government — snow plow tracking case study #civic-tech ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [[#📝 Summary]] - [[#📖 Main Content]] - [[#🗒️ Notes]] - [[#📚 References]] - [[#🗣️ Paraphrase]] - [[#📰 Newsletter]] - [[#✅ Action Items]] - [[#🧪 Hypotheses]] - [[#📊 Methodology]] - [[#❓ Questions]] - [[#🔮 Future Research]] - [[#💡 Implications]] - [[#🧠 Learning Styles Assessment]] - [[#📊 Accessibility Assessment]] - [[#🌍 DEIB Assessment]] - [[#✅ Logical Validity]] - [[#🛡️ DARVO Analysis]] - [[#🎯 Conclusion]] ### 🔗 References - [WordPress State of the Word 2025](https://wordpress.org/news/) - [Core AI Team Slack Channel](https://wordpress.slack.com/) - [Featured Plugins Discussion](https://make.wordpress.org/) ## 📝 Summary - WordPress reaches milestone: over 50% of websites now use non-English languages, with Japan leading adoption - WordPress 6.9 introduces AI connectors for OpenAI, Claude, and Gemini - first direct commercial integrations in core - Featured plugins system gets human curation overhaul, dramatically impacting plugin discovery and downloads - Civic tech case study: rapid development of snow plow tracking system reaches 25,000+ users during emergency - Discussion of WordPress evolution toward AI-first interfaces and implications for traditional content management ## 📖 Main Content Two WordPress industry veterans discuss major shifts happening in the WordPress ecosystem. The conversation covers WordPress's international growth, new AI integrations, plugin marketplace improvements, and real-world civic technology applications. They explore how AI integration represents a fundamental change in WordPress's traditionally open-source-only approach, while celebrating community-driven improvements to plugin discovery and the potential for rapid civic technology deployment. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/zR3hB-ns18w?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and Format - Key idea: Third collaborative discussion between Matt Madeiros (WP Minute) and Matt Cromwell (WP Product Talk) - Evidence: "This is a collab... we're doing this now for the third time" #### ⏱️ [04:23](https://youtu.be/zR3hB-ns18w?t=263) — [H1] WordPress Language Milestone - Key idea: WordPress crosses 50% non-English website threshold for first time in history - Evidence: "For the first time in WordPress history, over 50% of WordPress websites are in languages other than English" #### ⏱️ [06:15](https://youtu.be/zR3hB-ns18w?t=375) — [H2] Japan's WordPress Dominance - Key idea: Japan emerges as second-largest WordPress market with exceptional adoption rates - Evidence: "Japanese became the second most used language, with Japan reaching 58% website share and 83% CMS share" #### ⏱️ [09:42](https://youtu.be/zR3hB-ns18w?t=582) — [H2] Localization Impact on Plugin Development - Key idea: Plugin developers must prioritize internationalization for global market access - Evidence: "You can actually have a readme in any language you want... nobody does that" #### ⏱️ [12:30](https://youtu.be/zR3hB-ns18w?t=750) — [H1] AI Connectors Commercial Integration - Key idea: WordPress 6.9 introduces first direct commercial service integrations through AI connectors - Evidence: "This is the first time I've ever seen anything in WordPress at the core experience that says... you're going to have to go buy something" #### ⏱️ [16:45](https://youtu.be/zR3hB-ns18w?t=1005) — [H2] Revenue Model Questions - Key idea: Debate over whether Automattic should monetize AI connector placements - Evidence: "I hope Automattic is getting paid to put those things right in there" #### ⏱️ [19:20](https://youtu.be/zR3hB-ns18w?t=1160) — [H3] Open Source AI Alternative Argument - Key idea: WordPress should prioritize open-source AI models over corporate services - Evidence: "Make open-source models the first class citizens here" #### ⏱️ [23:15](https://youtu.be/zR3hB-ns18w?t=1395) — [H2] Developer Communication Challenges - Key idea: AI team needs better coordination with content creators for user education - Evidence: "They need to either outreach to folks like you and I to help coordinate these announcements" #### ⏱️ [28:30](https://youtu.be/zR3hB-ns18w?t=1710) — [H1] Snow Plow Tracking Civic Tech Story - Key idea: 40-inch snowstorm leads to rapid development of citizen-powered street tracking system - Evidence: "40 inches officially in my neck of the woods... I took the Claude code and built a bit of an MVP" #### ⏱️ [32:45](https://youtu.be/zR3hB-ns18w?t=1965) — [H2] Viral Adoption and Official Integration - Key idea: Grassroots tool gains official city endorsement and 25,000+ user reach - Evidence: "The police department had shared it as like the way to report your emergency" #### ⏱️ [37:20](https://youtu.be/zR3hB-ns18w?t=2240) — [H3] Product Design Insights - Key idea: Emergency software requires friction-free user experience without registration - Evidence: "I didn't want user login... there was no way people were like in a time like this that they... register create account" #### ⏱️ [41:10](https://youtu.be/zR3hB-ns18w?t=2470) — [H1] Featured Plugins Curation Revolution - Key idea: Human curation replaces algorithmic plugin discovery in WordPress.org - Evidence: "Nick Hamzy checked a checkbox in WordPress.org and changed this whole screen for everyone" #### ⏱️ [45:30](https://youtu.be/zR3hB-ns18w?t=2730) — [H2] Plugin Discovery Impact Metrics - Key idea: Featured placement drives significant download and installation increases - Evidence: "Ali Menu Designer went from a thousand active installs to 2,000 active installs" #### ⏱️ [48:45](https://youtu.be/zR3hB-ns18w?t=2925) — [H1] WordPress 7.0 as Watershed Moment - Key idea: Upcoming major version represents irreversible shift toward AI-centric interfaces - Evidence: "This is that moment that we're not coming back from" ## 📚 References - [WordPress State of the Word 2025](https://wordpress.org/news/) - [WordPress AI Experiments Plugin](https://wordpress.org/plugins/ai-experiments/) - [Core AI Team Slack](https://wordpress.slack.com/) - [Hidden Gems Plugin by Nick Hamze](https://github.com/) - [Featured Plugins Slack Channel](https://wordpress.slack.com/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - WordPress has become truly global with majority of websites now using non-English languages, particularly strong growth in Japan showing preference for open-source solutions - The platform is integrating commercial AI services directly for the first time, raising questions about monetization and open-source principles versus practical user needs - Plugin discovery got human curation which immediately improved lesser-known plugins' visibility and adoption, showing the power of editorial oversight versus pure algorithms - Rapid civic technology deployment during emergencies demonstrates how AI-assisted development can create significant community impact in hours rather than weeks ## 📰 Newsletter WordPress is experiencing fundamental shifts that every community member should understand. The platform just crossed a historic milestone with over 50% of WordPress sites now using languages other than English - Japan alone has reached 83% WordPress market share! This has serious implications for plugin developers who often neglect internationalization. Meanwhile, WordPress 6.9 introduces AI connectors for major providers like OpenAI and Claude, marking the first time core WordPress directly promotes commercial services. The community is debating whether this compromises open-source principles or represents necessary evolution. On a positive note, the plugin directory now features human curation thanks to Nick Hamze's initiative. Featured plugins are seeing 100%+ increases in active installations within days of promotion. Most fascinating is Matt Cromwell's snow emergency civic tech story - using AI assistance, he built and deployed a crowd-sourced snow plow tracking system that reached 25,000+ users and official city adoption in just days. These changes signal WordPress 7.0 as a watershed moment toward AI-centric interfaces. The question isn't whether this transformation will happen, but how the community shapes it. Resources: [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [Core AI Slack](https://wordpress.slack.com/), [Featured Plugins Channel](https://make.wordpress.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### WordPress - Core AI: Improve developer communication strategy, coordinate with content creators for feature announcements - Polyglots: Expand multilingual plugin readme support, create documentation for localization best practices - Plugins: Refine featured plugins rotation system, develop transparent selection criteria - Meta: Enhance plugin directory search functionality beyond current ElasticSearch configuration #### Community - Plugin Developers: Prioritize internationalization implementation, create localized documentation and readmes - Content Creators: Engage with Core AI team for early feature testing and user education content - Educators: Leverage Campus Connect program growth for international WordPress training initiatives #### OSPO - Strategic Alignment: Assess AI integration approach against open-source principles and commercial sustainability - Community Engagement: Monitor reception of commercial service integration, gather feedback on monetization concerns ## 🧪 Hypotheses - WordPress sites using non-English languages will continue growing faster than English sites as global internet access expands - Human curation of plugin features will outperform algorithmic recommendations in driving quality plugin adoption - AI-assisted rapid prototyping will enable more civic technology solutions during emergency situations - Commercial AI service integration will create tension between open-source ideology and practical user needs ### 📊 Methodology - Track WordPress language usage statistics quarterly through State of the Word reports - Monitor featured plugin performance metrics before/after curation implementation - Survey plugin developers on internationalization practices and barriers - Analyze civic technology deployment patterns during emergency situations ### ❓ Questions - How will WordPress balance open-source principles with commercial AI service integration? - What impact will non-English majority have on core development priorities and processes? - Can human curation scale effectively as the plugin directory continues growing? - Will AI-assisted development democratize civic technology creation beyond technical professionals? ### 🔮 Future Research - Long-term sustainability models for WordPress AI integration - Cross-cultural user experience patterns in WordPress administration interfaces - Economic impact of featured plugin curation on developer revenue - Emergency response technology adoption patterns in municipal governments ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Plugin developers must prioritize internationalization or risk missing majority markets - Policy: WordPress governance needs frameworks for evaluating commercial service integrations - Security: AI connector implementations require careful API key management and user privacy protection - Education: Non-English WordPress education resources need significant expansion and investment - Funding: Featured plugin curation success may justify investment in broader editorial initiatives ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th grade (technical discussion with industry jargon) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Plugin directory screenshots, download statistics graphs - Improve: AI connector interface mockups, geographic adoption maps, civic tech user interface examples #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full video discussion with natural conversation flow - Improve: Chapter markers for key topics, audio-only podcast version #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear explanations of technical concepts, real-world analogies - Improve: Glossary of WordPress-specific terms, comparison frameworks #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Civic tech case study with hands-on development story - Improve: Step-by-step plugin localization guide, AI connector setup tutorials #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Market share statistics, adoption timeline analysis - Improve: Decision trees for AI integration choices, cost-benefit analyses #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community discussion format, Slack channel references - Improve: Discussion prompts for WordPress meetups, collaborative project suggestions #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual reflection on WordPress evolution - Improve: Self-assessment checklist for plugin internationalization, personal development roadmap #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Organic community growth patterns, ecosystem evolution metaphors - Improve: WordPress ecosystem lifecycle analogies, sustainability considerations ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Video has clear speakers identification, structured conversation flow - Improve: Full transcript with speaker labels, heading structure for topic changes #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard YouTube controls accessible via keyboard - Improve: Video chapter navigation, transcript search functionality #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard video player interface meets contrast requirements - Improve: High contrast option for embedded code examples and screenshots #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: YouTube player responsive at various zoom levels - Improve: Ensure transcript text reflows properly at 200% zoom #### Media and captions - Present: YouTube auto-generated captions available - Improve: Professional captions with technical term accuracy, downloadable transcript #### Forms and interactions - Present: Basic video controls and comments accessible - Improve: Structured feedback forms for topic suggestions ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Global WordPress adoption discussion, international case studies - Improve: More diverse geographic examples beyond Japan focus #### Inclusive language - Present: Generally neutral technical discussion - Improve: Define WordPress-specific jargon, avoid industry insider assumptions #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Conversational format may be engaging for some learners - Improve: Provide topic timestamps, structured takeaways summary #### Representation - Present: Two white male industry veterans discussing - Improve: Include diverse voices from international WordPress communities #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful disagreement modeling, constructive criticism - Improve: Community guidelines for discussion participation, welcoming language for newcomers ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Market share statistics support conclusions about WordPress globalization - Inductive strength: Civic tech case study generalizes to broader AI-assisted development potential - Causal reasoning: Clear connection between featured plugin placement and adoption increases - Analogical strength: Comparison of WordPress AI integration to other platform monetization strategies #### Fallacies - Confirmation bias: Focus on positive WordPress developments without addressing significant challenges - False dilemma: Presenting commercial AI integration as either good or bad without nuanced middle ground - Anecdotal evidence: Single snow plow case study used to make broader claims about civic technology #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Conversational, industry-insider perspective with occasional technical enthusiasm ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No significant denial patterns observed in discussion - Attack: No attacks on accusers or critics present - Reverse victim/offender: No victim/offender dynamics discussed - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Generally balanced technical discussion with enthusiasm for positive developments ## 🎯 Conclusion WordPress is experiencing simultaneous transformation across internationalization, AI integration, and community curation. The shift to majority non-English usage demands serious attention to localization, while AI connectors represent the first commercial service integration directly in core WordPress. Human curation of plugins proves immediately effective, and AI-assisted civic technology shows remarkable potential for rapid community impact. WordPress 7.0 appears to represent a watershed moment toward AI-centric interfaces, with the community needing to actively --- # 📄 Full Transcript *Auto-generated from YouTube captions · timestamps roughly every 30 seconds · [watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR3hB-ns18w)* **[00:10]** trying out some new things. >> I I was really grooving to that intro. >> It was like elevator music in all the wrong ways. >> I almost forgot what I was doing. I was just like, am I on hold? Hey everybody, this is a collab. Um, and we're doing this now for the third time. It's almost like we think it's a good idea. Um, Matt Maderos from the WP Minute, Matt Cromwell from **[00:42]** uh WP Product Talk and Roots and Fruit. Matt, how are you doing? >> Doing great, Matt. Uh, third time's the charm, as they say. And I'm excited to dive into some of these uh, breaking changes. >> Breaking changes. Let's break all the changes. Um, it's been a, you know, it's honestly going into this um, this idea of breaking changes. I was like, you know, changes are breaking, but not like all the time. Um, but I might be wrong. **[01:15]** like I I'm like as as we got closer to this uh this Friday, I was like, "Ah, there's maybe nothing going on." And then all of a sudden there were things going on. And honestly, sometimes you were the one who stirring things up. So yeah, you know, when the news when nothing is happening in the news, you got to make the news. Uh I've learned. Uh but on a more serious topic about like WordPress, yeah, these things can I mean it's not like you you haven't been **[01:45]** producing WordPress media for a while, but sometimes there's you know 6 months of nothing fun happening, nothing to talk about in the WordPress space and then suddenly, you know, there's a whole new version coming and there's all kinds of things uh happening. So yeah, it's the ups and downs of this space. >> Yeah, 100%. Folks, if you're watching on LinkedIn or YouTube, you can contribute to the conversation in the comments and we will put them on the screen and make fun of you. Um, or we'll answer your **[02:15]** questions. We'll see what happens. See, we'll see how snarky Matt's feeling. So, um, let's, um, let's start with a softball. Um, and this might, and I told Matt beforehand, um, this might be old news to a lot of folks, but, um, I was really impressed. I randomly stumbled upon, um, the 2025 State of the Word, uh, blog article, and it said that for the first time in **[02:48]** WordPress history, um, I got to find the exact quote. Where did it go? For the first time ever, over 50% of WordPress websites are in languages other than English. Um, Japanese became the second most used language, uh, with Japan reaching 58% website share and 83% CMS share. Like, Japan is blowing up. Matt, you probably covered this in one way or another way back after State of the **[03:18]** Word. Um, and I'm just behind the times, but did what's your take on on this? >> Yeah, I I mean I it shows that it's probably the the the grassroots efforts of um a lot of the, you know, word camps and uh meetups that have been happening everywhere else except for the United States. So there's, you know, a growing market and a growing interest for that. And you know, I would say that you **[03:48]** there's probably a rise in the, you know, not to to jump into the AI stuff already, but like there's probably a rise in the tooling around WordPress, you know, to help either translate or create more content with and and WordPress just looking at as one of those um, you know, great apps to do it with. the the hopeful in me says the world wants an open-source thing to do this. >> Yeah, >> that that's the hopeful in me. So, I'm **[04:20]** trying not to look at it with from just like a you know like a real analytical or like a data driven um a data data driven lens. It's more like do people finally want open source and Japan is sort of leading that uh leading that track. Uh which is great to see and I I think uh hopefully we see see more of it of course but uh yeah >> surprising but also not surprising at the same time that finally there's there's a broader adoption of of **[04:51]** WordPress if you can even say that. Yeah, I I think it's great because the way in which the project is run is very English centric, but now uh English has less than 50% of all the websites all over the world. But of course, it's still the the highest used language. Um but I think that that should impact the way that the everybody contributes to the project in one form or another. I just think that multilingual sites or **[05:22]** sites that are localized in other languages are just going to become more and more and more important. Um because I've heard a lot of folks, myself included, say almost the opposite. Um because it's like, well, AI can just like translate your whole website in the browser now essentially. So why even deal with those things? Well, you deal with it because people actually care. like the the website experience and making it feel like this website is made for me really really matters a lot. And the website is not just like whatever **[05:54]** you see on the front end. It's also the the admin experience because folks all over the world have teams of people who are logging into the admin in order to do things and if everything is English, they feel like this this this isn't for me. Um so I I think it's pretty incredible. I think it's a great statistic to show adoption all over the world and the idea of localization in general I think is so significant. I think plugin have to take it like as like hey if this isn't on your radar if you're not taking these things seriously **[06:26]** um then you're doing something wrong. So >> yeah, the one thing I didn't look at is is are the numbers over are going up in terms of overall adoption of WordPress websites and and now the the uh like international sites, the non-English sites are are starting to to rise. But is the overall number going up? Like the English speaking sites aren't going down, correct? Or or are they? I don't know if that was in that article. >> It wasn't it wasn't in the article that **[06:57]** way. I think it was just more about like um percentages of the total stats, but I I mean folks have definitely been saying that um the total number of new WordPress websites is not as high as it used to be uh globally. Um you know, we were on such a steep incline for so long and then of course COVID as well pushed the the limits even further that we're having a slowdown postco and I mean now it's like we're like really clearly **[07:28]** postcoid for a long time already. Um it's natural that we're not having such huge adoption. I also think it's just there's this healthy sense in which it's like I mean what does that mean if if 90% of all the websites are built with WordPress? Like I I I don't know that that's healthy or good, you know. Um and if we were at 90% and all of a sudden it's 80%, everybody would be like, "Oh my gosh, we lost 10%." Well, I mean maybe that's a good thing, you know. Yeah, >> but that we hover around 45, **[07:58]** 44, whatever for a while, that still just means tens of millions of websites, you know. Uh if we went down from 44 to 39, it still would mean tens of millions of websites. Like it's not like these are small numbers, you know. Um anyway, I'm not on the doom and gloom when it comes to CMS market share and things like that. Overall, personally, >> in your original note, you said um that **[08:28]** this has serious implications for plug-in devs or that often or who often neglect internationalization or don't encourage localization. Um once again, I I think at the global level and like where you need to be to to compete. I mean, I'm I'm going to say compete cuz I'm thinking with my business hat on, like if you're somebody who's selling a product or a service, especially in the WordPress space. Um, and you start think to think to yourself is, oh my god, how could I serve the **[08:58]** Japan audience, right, if they're not speaking English uh when they're communicating with me or coming to my sales pages? And again, another win, dare I say, for AI. Um, I've seen amazing uh advancements uh keeping my eye on the podcasting space of like real time translation happening uh for speech. Um, and I can only imagine if it's real time for speech, it's real time for text. And so if you have the **[09:31]** ability to converse with somebody on your site and you have a plugin or theme and you're trying to provide that service, these tools are getting so good that that worry comes down, right? Market still increases in competition because you're going to have a lot more competition maybe um but the the the barrier to to help other people in other with through other languages is is going to drop to to zero. And um that'll be a great thing um not just for WordPress **[10:01]** obviously, but for for any kind of organization or business. >> Yeah, 100%. And I think a lot of folks don't realize like I I hear a lot of devs who who know how to do uh to make their um plug-in properly internationalized. Uh you know, you got to use the internationalization standards. Uh make sure that get text works correctly with all your strings and all that kind of thing. They focus on all that and then they call it done. Um, but the truth is like you can actually have a read me in any language **[10:33]** you want a a plug-in directory readme and no nobody does that. I haven't even done that for my reason plugins. Um, like I can I should make a German version of my readme right now. Like um that's easy. Um and uh and when they're on the de.wordpress.org /plugins, then your plugin will be in German, not in English. Um, and then that I mean that's an easy one. And then of course if you have a localized version of the plugin, then when they install it, it's all in German **[11:04]** automatically um in their website. Um, so that type of stuff I think um is is is really important. They also I mean.org has the glot press setup. It can be a little bit hard to navigate and figure out, but you could jump into the Polyglots channel and make WordPress Slack and they'll help you navigate and they'll greenlight things when they're looking good and everything. Um, so there there's ways there's ways uh folks just have to take it seriously. **[11:34]** >> How does WordPress.org plug-in repo react now? So, if you only have your English readme in the plug-in and somebody goes to the plug-in listing page, uh, does WordPress.org translate that in the DE version or it just keeps it in English? >> Yep. If if you don't have a localized readme then, um, then it just serves the English one. But you can create a localized readme for any language you want. That's what that's what I mean. I forget exactly the syntax, but it's something like um like readme dash then **[12:09]** the language string then.ext something like that. Um there's docs on the on there, but um the only plugin that I've seen do that uh consistently is Yoast. Yoast SEO does a good job on that front. >> I'm sure there's others, but >> yeah. >> Yeah. But that was a softball. Let's get into something a little bit with a little bit more teeth. Uh Matt's uh creating some drama out there um and um **[12:43]** about these this new uh upcoming version of WordPress is coming out that is being shipped with the ability to fork over some monies to some big corporate AI companies essentially more or less. I mean that was your take it seems like. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. So I you know just you know anyone who's been in the space for a gazillion years like you and I have and maybe a good portion of viewers you know uh we've always wondered you know what's the what's the **[13:14]** commercial side of.org or the the standalone uh free version of WordPress like what's what's the commercial side of it? Will it ever be commercialized? You know, for years I've thought that, well, if we're ever going to see some kind of commercialization of WordPress, it's going to come in the form of, well, maybe Jetack will have a landing page in the core experience of WordPress. And by and you know, again, I want to just preface this with I'm not against it. Well, >> I'm not against it depending on what I **[13:44]** see, but I'm not against automatic making money from the free version of.org. I know that's a hot topic in a debate like I I I want automatic to to survive and win. >> Um and I was just you know uh testing out some of the AI stuff. Then it dawned on me like wait a minute these three services at least in the iteration that I tested on playground claude OpenAI Gemini it can't spin those up for free. I mean maybe they have a free trial but I think at minimum it's a $5 API $5 cash **[14:17]** in to to activate the API. Uh, this is the first time I've ever seen anything in WordPress at the core experience said that says to the user, if you want this, click here, but you're going to have to go buy something in order to get this. >> And I know through the comments on um my thread, the the X thread is, you know, a lot of people saying like, well, it's not bundled with WordPress. I I I get it. I get the technicalities that the plug-in isn't bundled in WordPress and when you activate it, it installs it in **[14:47]** the back end, but the core experience is telling people go buy this now. And for 46ish% of the internet, I mean, that's a big push to, you know, these other AI services. I mean, granted, AI is super hot. A lot of people know these services without WordPress thankfully, but there'll be a c a definite on-ramp of people who are like, I guess I'll use this Gemini thing now. Um, and click to install it and activate it. So, >> um, >> which is fine. I'm just throwing it out **[15:18]** there. Boy, this is a milestone moment, which we'll probably talk about some other stuff in a little while. like this is a milestone moment for WordPress where this sets the stage for >> something else to come in and it sort of softens that blow of like oh my god there's a commercial thing here now. >> Yeah. I honestly I don't I you know I'm I'm sometimes not the the standard WordPress insider guy on these fronts. I hope automatic is getting paid to put those things right in there. Like I would hope and expect **[15:49]** that open AAI would be like we will pay for top placement to make sure that people can connect to their WordPress website through our API. Um and you know there is a lot of WordPress and a lot of Matt Mulleng that is very idealistic about open source um and would be like no like own your own API keys like if you have an API with open AI just use that and be done. Um and um but I think that that's a missed opportunity personally. Um like like I mean which **[16:22]** I'm that probably puts me on the opposite camp is what you're saying, but um but I I I mean I do I think like this is the future. We're going to be interacting with WordPress over AI and over uh APIs a lot more. Um and um and the only way for um automatic to continue to be sustainable long term is to try to capitalize that not only in terms of the functionality but also in terms of uh profitability uh honestly but **[16:54]** >> that's my take but I am almost certain that that's not what's happening here. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean this is I I feel like this is the reactionary thing of what's happening with uh you know all the stuff in in in AI in the AI team which is fine again. This is like they're just trying to push as fast as they possibly can. Uh you know while still getting criticized that they're not moving fast enough. >> Um >> which is not you know I I don't agree with but uh so I think that's what we're seeing. James Le page which I haven't I **[17:26]** don't have the exact link but I think he posted with either within this thread or he he started his own thread of already showing like 12 different providers uh on that page >> um you know which he's already starting to mock up or integrating with because I I do agree like the open source side of me is saying like well where's the open where's the open source stuff here like or or where's just the choice of like I don't need to pick the big three. Um, **[17:56]** so you know, how how does a user get that kind of uh, you know, that kind of uh option or that kind of diversity in in their AI tooling? Um, this is where I really think hosting companies are going to win in the future. >> Yeah. because I I think hosting companies are going to start to lean into potentially hosting their own open models or their own connections to this stuff and and you'll have more opportunity um for diversity in the future. >> Yeah. I mean, that's what that's what that's where I'm like, listen, if we're **[18:29]** going to be idealistic and uh open source all the way, then make open- source models the first class citizens here. like there are open source models and you can connect into them and you would be encouraging open source um throughout the world uh in a lot more serious manner. Um, you could do that, you know, but then if you're not going to do that and you're going to put corporate I mean I mean technically OpenAI is still a nonprofit foundation, but like um like if you're going to put **[18:59]** corporate uh folks right dead center, then you should get paid for that, you know? But this in between of like let's just basically um be a mediator um to the big AI companies and not get any credit for it, that to me seems a little shortsighted, honestly. Yeah. >> Um, but this is interesting these mockups that James has here. Um, to add kind of any connector you want. Um, I think that's smart also. Um, **[19:29]** >> yeah. >> Oh, here he's showing it even in the Woo Commerce uh area. That's interesting. But, >> you know, my my you know me, I have to have a good critical eye on on all of this stuff is I don't think um I don't think and this is not I don't mean this in a bad way. There's just not enough person power or it's just not priority yet. But I really think that team, the AI team, needs to interface with either **[20:03]** content creators like you and I, you know, and they have I mean, we had uh Jason on from the AI team a couple weeks ago on the podcast or a month ago. Um I've talked to James before. Uh you know, they're very active on Twitter and responding and stuff like this, but I think people need to be right alongside of them uh shouldertoshoulder saying like here's the stuff that's happening with AI. I mean, we needed that for decades with WordPress development, but I think right now with AI to keep people interested and to keep people aware of like here's how fast **[20:34]** we're moving. These are the things that we're doing and more importantly like here's how you can start to test it and and start using it now. Um, I think is so crucial to to where we're at. Uh, it's why I've been diving deep into it. Um, you know, for example, I think I I did the video that you see on on your screen right now. >> Yeah, I was going to ask about that. Yeah, I did a a quick uh just a presentation because I saw a lot of people saying like, "Oh, AI is in in WordPress now and you can chat with it." Like everyone started saying, "Oh, now all these things are integrated." Well, it's not integrated into core of WordPress, right? This is the guard **[21:05]** rails for other developers and other people connecting into WordPress to leverage a central place for your API keys. Let's just call it that. It's a central place for your API keys. Air quotes 50,000 foot view. But there was also an AI experiments plugin where you can try the AI experiments plugin. So as a power user and somebody who follows this stuff closely, I was like, well certainly if I pair up connectors with AI experiments, I can do some fun stuff and it didn't work. **[21:36]** >> It just nothing nothing happened. Uh and then um one of the contributors somewhere in there said uh oh experiments only works on 6.9. And then I was just like that doesn't make any sense, right? Like I thought, you know, we're moving so fast like and this is what I mean like we they need to be able to communicate this stuff, which I know is a super challenge, but they need to either outreach to folks like you and I to help coordinate some of these these uh these announce announcements at a real, you know, uh digestible level. Um **[22:07]** or somebody on the team within Automatic who creates content really needs to be able to to get a hold of this stuff. Um, >> yeah, 100%. >> That's my take on that. >> Yeah. What is your take in your video where you're saying they're getting it wrong? What are they getting wrong? Just >> is that >> is That's a bit of clickbait, Matt. >> Uh, I I need to get some views. So, it's not they as in the WordPress team. >> I just needed to hear you say it. That's all. I just >> I listen I there are so many people in our space who are buying views now. I am **[22:40]** just done. I'm going to I'm going to lean into the clickbait. So, there isn't there is an actual they who are getting it wrong and it's they who are saying that AI is now in WordPress. Um that's the they got it. >> You could confuse it with they the team. >> Yeah. You know they WordPress are getting it wrong. Yeah. >> Click to find out. >> Click. Yeah. You know, I don't watch your stuff so I had to ask. >> That's fine. >> No, this is good stuff. the other one. Honestly, we don't have a link here, but I I definitely want to talk um briefly **[23:13]** about your um foray into being locally famous um last week. Um which by the way, I'm glad you're safe. Uh so, for those who don't know or weren't paying attention, Matt was uh and his whole entire >> uh state was under snow, like um three feet of snow or something like that. Yeah. um for like a week >> 40 in Yeah. a week. 40 inches officially in my my neck of the woods. >> Crazy. >> Um yeah, it was nuts. Um but I also I **[23:46]** made some WordPress news because Matt tweeted about or Matt wrote a post about it or included me in his like link roundup. >> The third most famous Matt in WordPress. >> Third most famous Matt in WordPress. So the short story is like uh 40 ines of snow, huge like obviously state emergency. uh hasn't been that much. It beat the blizzard of 78, which is uh an old uh tale around these parts. I wasn't born then, but everyone every time it snowed around here, no matter what, it was always on the news, there's clips **[24:16]** of, you know, blizzard of 78 and how cars got, you know, snowed in for for weeks. Um 40 inches of snow. Literally couldn't couldn't leave. I mean, I couldn't leave my house, couldn't get down the street, couldn't get out of my driveway nonetheless. and uh the our city and our surrounding cities just weren't prepared for that kind of uh that kind of that kind of snow. >> Mhm. >> So, Tuesday nightish, somebody on on uh Facebook uh was just like, I would love to if the city had some kind of way to **[24:48]** show people like what streets were getting plowed and like and maybe we'd be able to say like our street needs to get plowed too and all this other stuff. So, I took the claw code and built a bit of an MVP and I was just like I have nothing else to do. I'm like, let me just see what I can do. Cloudflare pages. Nice little exercise to do this kind of thing. And um you know, the person who happened to say it or asked that question was also a former mayor of our city. So, he had quite a reach. I don't know him. I don't have any connection to him. Uh but I just made it **[25:18]** DM'd it to him and said, "Hey, I just threw this together. What do you think?" He shared it on his page, which is like, I don't know, 25,000ish people that follow him on his page. And um it just blew up, right? People started reporting their streets, yada, you know, it was was going nuts. I've never I've never launched anything to that kind of fanfare before. Uh dang it. Uh conductor came in a conductor came in a close second. Uh um but it took off and then it really took off the next day because I went to **[25:48]** bed. I was like fixing some things and trying to make it, you know, make sure everything was working. And then I woke up the next morning and the police department had shared it as like the way to, you know, to report your emergency. Couple days goes on, I I I know somebody in the police department, a friend of mine that I used to work with at a at my first tech job. And um he was asking me to help like build stuff in the admin back end to help uh so that they could coordinate it with the with the plow plows going out and the city police and **[26:18]** fire and all this other stuff. they could download it and then eventually like mark the streets that were done so that the citizens could be informed that >> so the citizens are saying my street's not plowed and then the plowing company is saying it is now. >> Yes. >> Basically, oh that's amazing. >> So So it crazy exercise and a social experiment in in like how this stuff all plays out because I don't know what it's like in Germany. I'm sure people are in the US who can relate to their like local Facebook group of, you know, their **[26:51]** town or city. >> A lot of people just like to complain about stuff, you know, and that's largely what gets the most noise. Um, so I didn't want from a technical perspective, from a product perspective, yes, I used AI. Uh, I could have made something in WordPress like if we didn't have AI, I could have used Gravity Forms and something. it would have taken me many hours to do it. Um, but from the technical perspective and to give myself some like product knowledge credit uh I didn't want a user **[27:24]** login. I didn't want user registration. Uh, one from like the technical hassle of that and managing that. >> Yeah. >> And two from the adoption of of the product itself. There was no way >> people were like in a time like this that they okay I'm going to go to this app register create account create a profile wait for the email okay access it you know all that stuff >> so I I built it in a way where it was just a majority rules you search for your street you say your street is either uh plowed or not plowed and it **[27:56]** just creates a tally system internally and you could see the votes and it just you know you flip the streets so if you have 100 people on the street >> 51 say yes, >> then it's then it's green, the street's green. >> Uh if 51 say no, the street turns red. And you could come back and vote. You could vote once an hour. >> Um >> and you could come back because obviously if your street gets plowed, you come back and you say yes. >> Did you have to have a minimum of votes like at least 10 people had to have voted? >> No. No, it would just um it would just you know, you vote once **[28:26]** >> one person then that's 100% already done, >> right? So, is their name and email or IP address or No. >> Nope. I kept all of that uh all IP stuff is hashed. It's not >> tracked. Um still not tracked. Still no user accounts. >> Yep. >> Um and then yeah, then it started it just really started going off see watching it spread on Facebook. people screenshotting it like look at the count here you know look at like they're not you know it's obviously largely people **[28:58]** complaining being like look they haven't plowed this they haven't done that what are they doing yada yada yada >> and then I got news outlets um reaching out to me doing interviews >> the craziest thing um again from a technical perspective and for those of us who are in this space nobody wanted to find out who I was like the city was recommending You're like some random guy who's going to remain random and anonymous. **[29:28]** >> Matt, I I tell you, I I I kid you not. I'm watch I'm sitting here at my desk uh like the third day of the storm and the governor came down and they're in like the the place where they're you know the emergency command center in our city and she's doing a live press conference with my app my website in the background with a map and everything and I'm sitting here going you guys like does anybody know what the internet's like? At any point I could have switched that to like **[29:59]** a QR code with a bitcoin, send me some money, you know, it's just like nobody wanted to find out who this guy was. It's just really different like us being in like the technical space and how we approach things of like scale and security. >> Yeah. >> And then like >> the rest of the world is just like give us give it give it to us. It's helping us. Nobody cares. Um so it's been a wild ride. I've been releasing features for it. Uh now you can like track you can alert to potholes and stuff. Uh the city **[30:30]** reached out this morning. They want to have a conversation with me. Um a couple other cities have been using it. They reached out during the storm. They wanted to use it. Um so a real lesson in like you know the power of you know um democratizing software and helping out people. Obviously the power of AI um to help me expedite this stuff. And um yeah it's been it's been a wild ride. So I I you know I might be starting a whole new company as if I knew it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh city city city works uh type of app **[31:02]** development. That'd be interesting. Um and uh >> and they don't know what these things cost. So uh that's lucrative. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean yeah I've done a ton of research. But it's also like I start to think about this whole, you know, speaking of breaking changes is I mean I joke about I'm not a developer. I do have a technical background obviously. I've been doing this now for for many many many years. Um so yes, I'm ahead of the curve on this stuff. But I think about **[31:33]** where we're at with AI and if a power user like myself can launch something like this >> Yeah. and turn it into something. A year from now, that gap only starts to get, you know, smaller and smaller. So long as the economics of AI stay the way stay the way they're at. We could get a rug pull a rug pull of your claw code now cost $10,000 a month. >> Yeah. Versus 20. >> Yeah. >> So that could be a thing. Yeah, **[32:04]** >> I think something like that, maybe not to that extreme, but something like that is on the horizon for sure. >> Correct. >> Yeah, sure. You can use the cheap AI for sure and it will tell you how to make a good um apple pie, but um if you want the good AI, you're going to have to pay for it. >> Yeah. >> Um I'm going to back up a little bit because we got Jason Adams in the comments here. Jason Adams is on the core AI team. Um, and he's saying based on our conversation earlier, uh, for me **[32:34]** the focus has been on getting the AI client out in the hands of plug-in developers and working. I think the connectors UI, which we were talking about earlier, is still only going to cater to a very small percentage of users who are able to set up an AI service account and get keys. Um, my little comment thing is breaking it off. Hold on, let me see. Get get keys. The primary focus will remain on empowering the ecosystem to develop AI powered features. Um, **[33:08]** hold on. The connector's UI is still only going to cater to a very small percentage of users who are able to set up AI service accounts and get keys. >> Okay. I I think he's what what he might be saying is that type of there's only a certain type of person who's going to go set up an API key, which I agree with. >> But the issue is WordPress goes out to so many people. And if if this touches your random Joe that has heard about **[33:39]** chat GBT, he's going to go, "Oh, I can connect chat chat GBT to this." Sure, he's going he might fail. >> Uh but the problem is that might be a bit of a friction friction experience there. Like people are like, I thought I could get chat GPT into into this. >> Yeah. Um Jason also says, "Please join the core AI chats in Slack. You're both so welcome. We love your assistance." I am in there. I am a wallflower. Um I read um most everything that's in there. **[34:09]** Um and there is a lot of really good activity, not just from the core AI people, not just from automaticians. There's lots of good folks in there. I see I see um folks from Fueled in there all the time. Um there's uh there's good folks contributing in there. So, and it's it's I have to say um and I I've seen a lot more constructive uh cooperation with automaticians and any core WordPress person with the community. It's been way healthier than **[34:40]** it's ever been in the past in my opinion. There's a little bit of a tangent, but I I I just have noticed just a ton of really healthy engagement. Um, it actually is related to this next thing here. Um, good segue, Matt. Good job. Um, I had this conversation this week with Nick Hamsy. If you haven't heard about it, um, open up your WordPress dashboard and go to add new plugins. And the first thing you see is this dark screen. Uh, probably not so **[35:13]** dark on your screen, but like where do these plugins come from? You've never seen most of these plugins before in your life, but now they're front and center on the add new plugins screen. And that's because Nick Hamsy checked a check box in WordPress.org and changed this whole screen for everyone. Um, I was actually really surprised by that. I that was one of my first questions. I was like, was this code? Did you push code? like how did that hap where how did this happen without like a a core release? Uh and **[35:45]** he's like no it's a checkbox like you log into WordPress.org and if you have the the the user role uh for it you can just check on or check off whether or not a plugin is featured in the featured plugins area. Um and he figured that out by talking with Matt Mullenweg and Matt said, "Nick, go and just change them. Just go change them. Uh go talk to the right people. go figure it out and just go change them. And then Nick just went out and dogged anybody who had any **[36:16]** responsibility or any gatekeeping roles for those toggles and got access and changed them to these plugins. And he did that. He said in the a while back he built a a fun little plugin that's only on GitHub right now. It's called Hidden Gems. you install it and it will um enhance your plug-in directory in your WordPress site to um be able to highlight plugins that aren't crazy popular but are on the up. **[36:46]** They're they're gaining in uh active installs. They have really good ratings, all that kind of thing. Uh but they're not in the thousands or tens of thousands or millions of active installs. It's a cool little plugin. Um and that got him thinking about doing something like this. He got the thumbs up from Matt. He went in and he found he said he just took um he what does he use? He doesn't use cursor. Uses Copilot. I think he said he used Copilot and just ping the WordPress.org plug-in API and said find me some really good **[37:19]** plugins that need to be highlighted. Um and uh he came up with these ones. Um, and then he said that uh basically he's going to change it out every two weeks. And there's also a Slack channel uh in Make WordPress called featured plugins right now. And if you want to recommend your plugin in there, you just go in that channel and you just say, "Hey, these are the plugins that I think should be featured." He said definitely gets more weight if it's not your plugin. Um, you know, uh, and they have to pass a certain bit of muster. Um but **[37:51]** um but uh I I'm excited about this. It's just such a simple change that I think has a dramatic impact on the users. Um and the other thing that this did um so this is our follow-up conversation with uh Nick that we just had yesterday. Honestly, um the other thing that this did um is >> before you go before you go uh yeah, before you go to that >> the the checkbox he he he didn't have that on his **[38:21]** account. He just real he just knows that >> other admins have access. >> He does have it on his account now. He didn't and he got approval from Matt and now he has the capabilities. Yes. >> Right. Yes. cuz I remember probably like you way back in the day where the contributor or like the theme uh review team basically could also like feature themes and stuff like that based on the reviews that they did. >> Yeah. Yeah. And this is now basically Nick's job. Um he's not an auto automatician, but he has the trust of **[38:53]** Matt on this. And um and he >> also has a Pokemon store. >> He runs a Pokemon store. I honestly I really think that that's like the key is like he doesn't give two shits like like Nick doesn't have aspirations and yes so it's not like he can like he doesn't want to do anything nefarious you know >> right if Matt Cromwell had the keys on the other hand >> where did that green Porsche come from Matt I don't understand you got that **[39:25]** >> I don't know I don't know it's gonna change in two weeks so don't worry about Um, no. But, um, I was like, I'm sure this has an impact. So, uh, sure enough, like two or three days later, I just went and looked at, um, Mike Mallister's, um, Ali Menu Designer, which is a great plugin, and I was really happy that it was one of the first to be featured. Um, and you could see how the download count shot through the roof. Now, for those who are uninitiated, download count isn't an **[39:56]** awesome metric. It does say how many times a plugin was downloaded by a WordPress install in one form or another, but that could be updates to the plugin. That could be just a download of the zip file from WordPress.org itself into somebody's downloads folder. It could be all kinds of things. Um, but we don't have a lot of other metrics um to evaluate these things by at all. Um, and we did notice though that the Ali Menu designer went from a thousand active installs to 2,000 **[40:26]** active installs also in this span of time. Um, so active installs is another metric that we don't have visibility over anymore at all. We used to, we don't anymore. U, but it's supposed to say how many websites actually physically are using this uh, plugin enough that they have gone through like at least one update of it or things like that. So that clearly had an impact. And there's a whole thread here of other um plugins that got featured who also had spikes in their uh install counts too. **[40:58]** So >> yeah. Yeah. No, it's a it's a it's a fantastic thing. I mean I think even major companies like Apple have human curation with music and and podcasts and news and >> yeah, >> it's about time about time we had this >> about time really. And uh in the conversation um with Nick yesterday, we talked a lot about like, well, all right, cool. What's next? Can you get like filters into the search? Um and it **[41:30]** it is a lot of folks, even in my thread, they were like, oh, cool, but like you still can search by for a plugin by name and it won't show up at the top of the search. Um so the search still has a lot of room for improvement, for sure. Um, and uh, it's it's kind of frustrating because um, it's an elastic search engine. They have an elastic search engine that is basically on uh, the Jetack side. It's powered by Jetack search essentially. Um, and so it's doing really robust searching. I mean, **[42:00]** it has to search through 70,000 plugins. Um, so it's really robust, but it feels like the way the it's configured, which you can actually see the code in WordPress.org, org. Everybody can see the source code of WordPress.org, by the way. It's like really seriously open source. Um, you could see the way that it basically prioritizes plugins uh according to a certain um weight um uh and uh and see how that operates. Um folks have just saying like, well, let's **[42:30]** deal with that next like why don't we just like make this actually work in a way that is a lot more robust. So, I don't know. We'll see. Yeah. I mean, again, uh I love the fact that that we have it. It's just like, damn, why did it take this long? Because now it's like >> it almost feels like we're we're heading to that situation where we'll be just chatting with our MCP to install plugins. But um maybe it it earmarks uh human like some, you know, some kind of **[43:00]** human curation experience that those of us who really care will will be looking at instead of just chatting with our bots about. H. >> Yep. Nice. Well, that's most of what I've got this time. Did you have something else on your mind? >> You didn't want to talk about your article? >> Oh, we could talk about that article, too. One more. You want to talk about this? >> Well, you I I I think you and I agree. **[43:30]** Of course, you put it much more eloquently than I. Um, I left my note on the um on the make blog post. I think it was for before the connector. It was before it was a James post. I should I should have had this link. Um, but I I also think that, you know, we're we're thinking so much now about WordPress interface and you see all these other people like our, you know, friend of the show, Chris Lema, uh, migrating his site, uh, to **[44:02]** Astro and Payload, wants MD files, wants to interface with AI bots and all this other stuff. So many people talking about that. Um, and now the experience of of WordPress. Yeah, we need to keep up. We need to enhance this stuff. we need to stay relevant. Um, but we're doing this all now for agents and bots hitting the site and MD files. And I'm just like, well, >> now we're just planning for WordPress to just the experience be for bots, you know, no offense bots, but that's what **[44:33]** we're thinking about now. And this is a huge departure uh from how we experience WordPress. And um you know I think uh you put it much better than I did uh in your piece and uh I absolutely agree. This is this this WordPress 7 is you know it's a landmark moment. >> Yeah. Whe >> whether you feel it or not when when your site updates to seven uh you know uh in April uh whether you feel it or not it's that moment that we're not **[45:04]** coming back from. Um, >> I saw somebody, you know, post on Twitter uh last or earlier this week, which I think is like the six-y year anniversary of COVID, like when it re like like when it really and somebody was like, do you remember when six years ago was the last normal day of your life? And I was just like, oh yeah, like I remember that when things were so different back then. Uh, this is what's going to happen when 7.0 hits. I I don't mean it as doom and gloom as that, but **[45:35]** Well, that's I mean that's exactly that tension here is that there are so many folks who are like, "Yeah, we're at a cusp of something and it's the demise of WordPress itself. Like everybody say goodbye. It's all over." And I mean these are just some random comments. Um uh I mean this guy's got a decent following but uh like and and I just see these comments on Reddit everywhere on Kora and like in Facebook groups. Um, I mean, we've seen them, but I and I do think very often those types of comments are coming from the outside looking in. **[46:07]** They're not folks who actually are paying that close attention to what's actually happening in WordPress. But that sentiment is not foreign um to common people, you know. Um, and I'm like, yeah, there is something in the air. Um, but I think it's an event horizon, not a sunset. I I think we're at the beginning of a whole new um situation and there's lots of reasons to think that like I I just do three main reasons basically um which uh real quick **[46:38]** is the way that they're tackling uh AI I do think is amazing. Uh some folks will say it's too slow, but honestly like Google went slow. Lit literally like chat GPD was out there doing all kinds of crazy things and Google was like ah we're not going to do AI yet, you know. So sometimes >> Apple did nothing and hired Google. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Apple's been on the sideline being like AI is dangerous. Um but of course they're they're going to turn around. Um, uh, also the way that the Campus Connect stuff is going, **[47:10]** folks, if you're not paying attention to Campus Connect, like just if you want to just feel good about what you're doing in WordPress, like go into the Make Slack channel. Again, we keep mentioning it over and over again. Go to Campus Connect and just look at all of the positive energy that's happening in there. Folks are creating events in ways that haven't been done before. People are showing up, students are showing up and learning about WordPress for the first time. certifications are happening and this is happening again all over the world. It's another one where it's like **[47:40]** the internationalization is happening everywhere and now there's like real energy around learning WordPress in places that are not the United States of America at all. Um like I haven't seen a Capus connect show up on in a western country necessarily. There is one in Italy that was like the the kickoff. Um but um it's >> we just interviewed Yeah, we just interviewed the head of the WordPress credits program. I just DM'd you the link. >> Oh, nice. And it was Yeah, it was just f you know, it's great. It's fascinating **[48:11]** to to WordPress was always that thing was the the way people learned how to do the web was through for a lot of us through WordPress through trying to get this thing up on a server 20 years ago and and for them to position this educational component and hopefully that's a a huge foundational piece or fundamental piece for WordPress's survivability moving forward. >> 100%. Yeah, it's all I did not know about this. I'm gonna I'm going to actually **[48:42]** watch your content now. >> And here's And here's the best thing. Here's the best thing, Matt. It's not me, it's Eric. >> Oh, okay. There we go. I'm safe. I'm safe. Um, yeah. Uh, the other one is people are talking about flat plug-in sales, and I agree. Um, I mean, Katie always comes to every conversation with data, and she's not wrong. Um, I just think that flat plug-in sales is an indicator of a very rapidly maturing market. Um, I I think that the SAS space is entering the WordPress market more forcefully and not **[49:15]** even on purpose that much. It's just that the SAS applications are more applicable to a WordPress website than they've ever been before. And so people are choosing those more slick and robust um experiences over a cludgy uh plug-in. Um and that makes it harder to sell um overall. So, but a saturated market or a a more maturing market needs to be seen as an opportunity for these plug-in shops, not just like, oh crap, I can't **[49:45]** sell anymore. Um it's hard. It's it's not easy at all, but um but it means that there's demand. That's the thing. It means that there's demand, not that that it's getting um thinner. So, >> yeah. >> Anyway, yeah, that's my take. >> Great piece, Matt. Good job, buddy. >> Thank you. Thank you. Nothing like um like literally saving a whole entire town from its uh snow plow problem, but I'll take it. I'll take it. >> Yes. >> Awesome, man. Well, this has been great. **[50:17]** Again, third time is a charm. Any final thoughts? Um any things that you're looking forward to in the next couple weeks? >> Uh no, doing a lot of prep for uh Prescom and doing a lot of interviews for the folks who are hitting the stage at Prescom. So excited for that. Don't forget press conf.vents. Check that out. Um otherwise, no same steady as she goes. Uh I'll be developing civic software moving forward, Matt. **[50:47]** My talk at press conf is going to be a little bit different. >> It's a lucrative lucrative uh area. When you pinged that that mayor, you should have been like, "Hey, by the way, I've been working on this for months." You That's what you said, right? >> Yeah. No, I said I did this in an hour. >> Exactly. And that's fine because I know I know I have to pivot I I already have to pivot my software company that doesn't exist yet into an AI education company. It's already pivoting over to I'm not going to be able to sell this software. **[51:17]** I'm gonna have to show people how to do it. >> So that's that's where I'm at. >> Nice. Yeah. I'm also I mean I think I mentioned it last time. I'm also looking forward to press conf. I think it's going to be awesome. Um I love these independent events. Um also checkout summit is coming up really soon as well. Uh Ralffo has been putting on a show over there. Um I think it's going to be great. It's kind of like the first real independent Woo Commerce event. And if you think about it, like Shopify has this huge conference that they do all the time. And Woo Commerce just hasn't had something like that. Um right now **[51:49]** Checkout Summit's not huge. It's more intimate, private. Um but I think it's going to be a great event. I think it has lots of potential to be something really significant in the in the e-commerce space in general. Um, but you know, first year is always hard. Um, so we'll see how it goes. But I'm I'm looking forward to being there. Besides, it's in Polmo. Like, why not have an excuse to go to Polarmo? So, >> or it's beautiful. >> Yeah, I'll let you know how it goes. Um, >> yeah, >> but has the budget. The WP Minute does not. **[52:21]** >> Well, it's not that far from me, so um um Nice. Cool. Cool. Folks, have a good >> if you have Yeah. If you just for folks in the audience, uh, subscribe to both of our channels, follow us, uh, every other Friday here. If you have stuff you want us to cover, you like these two talking puppets talking about WordPress, uh, let let us know. Uh, what like what was the uh uh the uh uh the Muppet Show? The two uh old dudes up in the balcony. That's us. That's that's us. You got **[52:53]** something you want us to cover? >> Everybody's minds now. there. That's definitely going to be what they say. Now, >> you want us to cover something, uh, ping us, let us know, and we'll chat about it on the show. Uh, we're happy to, uh, break your changes right here live.