Can WordPress Survive the AI Era - CourtneyR.dev's 2nd Brain

Can WordPress Survive the AI Era? ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/HQX1LYErVU8/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [Can WordPress Survive the AI Era?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQX1LYErVU8) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: #wordpress #ai #artificial-intelligence #web-development #page-builders #gutenberg #elementor #web-design #content-management #automation #agencies #future-of-web #vibe-coding > author: Rienus Diemer > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQX1LYErVU8 > date created: 2025-01-10 16:00 > > # 🏷️ Title: Can WordPress Survive the AI Era? (Live w/ Jamie Marsland) >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Explore TX for vibe-coded block theme generation — automatic's experimental tool #wordpress - [H2] Test WordPress.com MCP connector for Claude integration — new AI website understanding #ai - [H3] Research AI-first editing experiences for agencies — future opportunity #agencies ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [[#📝 Summary]] - [[#📖 Main Content]] - [[#🗒️ Notes]] - [[#📚 References]] - [[#🗣️ Paraphrase]] - [[#📰 Newsletter]] - [[#✅ Action Items]] - [[#🧪 Hypotheses]] - [[#📊 Methodology]] - [[#❓ Questions]] - [[#🔮 Future Research]] - [[#💡 Implications]] - [[#🧠 Learning Styles Assessment]] - [[#📊 Accessibility Assessment]] - [[#🌍 DEIB Assessment]] - [[#✅ Logical Validity]] - [[#🛡️ DARVO Analysis]] - [[#🎯 Conclusion]] ### 🔗 References - [TX by Automattic](https://tx.automattic.com) - [WordPress.com MCP Connector](https://wordpress.com) - [Lovable](https://lovable.dev) ## 📝 Summary - Jamie Marsland, head of YouTube at Automattic, discusses WordPress's future in an AI-dominated landscape - New tools like TX enable vibe-coding full WordPress block themes, not just individual blocks - WordPress.com's MCP connector allows AI to understand entire website stacks and context - The industry is shifting from manual editing interfaces to AI-first website generation - Agencies face disruption but have new opportunities in business process automation and AI integration - WordPress may ride "second and third waves" of AI growth after initial tools like Lovable captured first wave ## 📖 Main Content The conversation explores how AI is fundamentally changing web development and WordPress's role in this transformation. Jamie Marsland argues that while initial AI tools like Lovable and Bolt have captured significant market share by building websites from scratch, WordPress has unique advantages through its ecosystem of 60,000 plugins and deep user base representing 43% of the web. Key developments include Automattic's TX tool, which now generates complete block themes through vibe-coding, and WordPress.com's MCP (Model Context Protocol) connector that gives AI complete understanding of website stacks. These tools represent a shift from adding AI features to existing editors toward replacing traditional editing interfaces entirely. The discussion addresses market disruption data showing 35% growth in new website creation, primarily captured by new AI tools rather than traditional WordPress agencies. However, Marsland suggests WordPress is positioned to benefit from future waves as AI models improve their understanding of WordPress architecture. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/HQX1LYErVU8?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and Jamie's background - Key idea: Jamie works as head of YouTube at Automattic with extensive WordPress training experience - Evidence: "I've trained about 5,000 people face to face on WordPress" #### ⏱️ [05:30](https://youtu.be/HQX1LYErVU8?t=330) — [H2] Historical moment in technology - Key idea: We're living through a foundational 5-year period that will shape the next century - Evidence: "These next four years are going to be incredibly foundational in terms of the next hundred years" #### ⏱️ [08:45](https://youtu.be/HQX1LYErVU8?t=525) — [H1] WordPress.com MCP connector breakthrough - Key idea: AI can now understand entire WordPress website stacks, not just individual components - Evidence: "It knows your fonts, colors, and CSS intuitively - you can say build me a landing page and it understands your design aesthetic" #### ⏱️ [15:20](https://youtu.be/HQX1LYErVU8?t=920) — [H2] Agency opportunities in AI disruption - Key idea: Massive opportunities exist for agencies to automate client business processes - Evidence: "There's money in the mountains if you just go searching for it" #### ⏱️ [18:30](https://youtu.be/HQX1LYErVU8?t=1110) — [H1] TX tool for vibe-coded block themes - Key idea: Automattic's TX now generates complete WordPress block themes through AI prompting - Evidence: Demo showing custom-designed, responsive WordPress themes created through vibe-coding #### ⏱️ [25:15](https://youtu.be/HQX1LYErVU8?t=1515) — [H3] December 2024 AI capability shift - Key idea: December marked a significant leap in AI model capabilities across the industry - Evidence: "December felt like a big shift in terms of what these models were capable of" #### ⏱️ [28:40](https://youtu.be/HQX1LYErVU8?t=1720) — [H2] Foundational skills vs tooling focus - Key idea: Learn fundamental skills like storytelling rather than chasing every new AI tool - Evidence: "Think of what the foundational stuff is that you'll need where the value is for you" #### ⏱️ [35:20](https://youtu.be/HQX1LYErVU8?t=2120) — [H1] WordPress positioned for second wave growth - Key idea: While new tools captured initial AI wave, WordPress can dominate subsequent waves - Evidence: Chart showing 35% growth in new websites, mostly captured by tools like Lovable #### ⏱️ [42:30](https://youtu.be/HQX1LYErVU8?t=2550) — [H2] The accessibility revolution in web creation - Key idea: We've moved from developer-dependent to visual editors to AI-first creation - Evidence: "Elementor captured the market by making web creation accessible to non-coders" #### ⏱️ [48:15](https://youtu.be/HQX1LYErVU8?t=2895) — [H1] Users want AI instead of editors - Key idea: After 20 years of building complex editors, people just want to tell AI what they want - Evidence: "They don't want AI inside of the editor. They want AI instead of the editor" #### ⏱️ [52:40](https://youtu.be/HQX1LYErVU8?t=3160) — [H3] WordPress ecosystem advantages - Key idea: 60,000 plugins give WordPress leverage that new AI tools lack - Evidence: "If you want e-commerce, forms, any functionality - that intellectual work has been done" #### ⏱️ [56:20](https://youtu.be/HQX1LYErVU8?t=3380) — [H2] Headless WordPress with AI frontend - Key idea: AI-generated frontends can beautifully present WordPress content - Evidence: Demo of Lovable-built headless WordPress site with automatic content ingestion #### ⏱️ [62:10](https://youtu.be/HQX1LYErVU8?t=3730) — [H1] The editor paradigm shift - Key idea: Future websites won't need traditional editors - just conversational AI - Evidence: "I don't need an editor. I just tell the AI what to change" #### ⏱️ [68:45](https://youtu.be/HQX1LYErVU8?t=4125) — [H3] Communication challenges remain - Key idea: Even with perfect AI, humans struggle to articulate their business needs - Evidence: "Talking and communication is a skill - describing our own pain and problems is hard" ## 📚 References - [TX by Automattic](https://tx.automattic.com) - [WordPress.com MCP Connector](https://wordpress.com) - [Lovable](https://lovable.dev) - [Bolt](https://bolt.new) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - AI tools are fundamentally changing how websites are created, with new platforms capturing significant market growth that WordPress agencies haven't felt yet - WordPress has unique advantages through its plugin ecosystem and user base, positioning it to benefit from future AI waves even if it missed the first one - The future of web creation is moving toward conversational AI interfaces that replace traditional drag-and-drop editors entirely ## 📰 Newsletter **WordPress Meets AI: The Future of Web Creation** Jamie Marsland from Automattic shared exciting developments in WordPress AI integration. New tools like TX now generate complete WordPress block themes through simple prompts, while the WordPress.com MCP connector gives AI complete understanding of your site's design system. Key takeaway: We're shifting from "AI inside editors" to "AI instead of editors." This creates massive opportunities for agencies to focus on business process automation rather than manual CSS coding. The WordPress plugin ecosystem remains a crucial advantage - while new tools like Lovable build from scratch, WordPress offers 60,000 pre-built solutions for any functionality need. Resources: [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [Developer Docs](https://developer.wordpress.org/), [WP-CLI](https://wp-cli.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### WordPress - Core AI: Expand abilities API integration with plugin ecosystem - Gutenberg: Develop AI-first editing interfaces beyond traditional blocks - Developer Experience: Create better headless WordPress documentation - Community: Train agencies on AI integration opportunities #### Agencies - Business Development: Pivot toward business process automation services - Skill Development: Learn foundational storytelling and systems architecture - Tool Adoption: Experiment with TX and MCP connectors for client work - Client Education: Help businesses articulate their AI automation needs ## 🧪 Hypotheses - WordPress will capture "second wave" AI growth after initial tools plateau due to ecosystem advantages - Traditional visual editors will become obsolete within 3-5 years for most use cases - Agency revenue will shift from front-end design to business process automation - Headless WordPress with AI-generated frontends will become a dominant architecture ### 📊 Methodology - Track WordPress market share vs new website creation growth to validate wave theory - Survey agencies on revenue source changes from design work to automation services - Monitor TX adoption rates and quality metrics compared to traditional theme development ### ❓ Questions - How will WordPress maintain competitive advantage as AI models improve understanding of all platforms? - What new interface paradigms will replace drag-and-drop editing for non-technical users? - How can WordPress leverage its plugin ecosystem more effectively in AI workflows? ### 🔮 Future Research - AI video generation impact on content creation workflows - Cross-platform AI tool integration strategies for agencies - User experience design for conversational website creation interfaces ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Agencies must rapidly upskill in AI tool integration and business process optimization - Policy: WordPress governance needs frameworks for AI-generated content and themes - Education: Training programs should focus on foundational skills rather than interface-specific knowledge - Funding: Investment should prioritize AI integration over traditional feature development ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 12 #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Multiple screen shares showing TX demos and website examples - Improve: Workflow diagrams showing AI-first editing processes #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Live conversation format with natural discussion flow - Improve: Timestamped audio segments for key concepts #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear definitions of technical terms like MCP, TX, vibe-coding - Improve: Glossary of WordPress AI terminology #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Live demos of tools in action - Improve: Step-by-step TX tutorial guides #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Growth charts and market analysis data - Improve: Decision trees for AI tool selection #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Interactive live chat during stream - Improve: Community discussion forums for follow-up #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Detailed technical explanations for self-study - Improve: Self-assessment checklists for AI readiness #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Evolution analogies for technology development - Improve: Ecosystem metaphors for WordPress plugin interactions ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure and speaker identification - Improve: Transcript with proper markup for screen readers #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard video player controls - Improve: Timestamped navigation shortcuts #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard YouTube video quality - Improve: High contrast mode option #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive video player - Improve: Transcript with adjustable text size #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided - Improve: Professional captions with speaker identification #### Forms and interactions - Present: Basic video controls - Improve: Accessible chapter navigation ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Global perspective on web development trends - Improve: Examples from diverse geographic markets #### Inclusive language - Present: Professional, accessible technical terminology - Improve: Avoid industry jargon without explanation #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear topic transitions and structured discussion - Improve: Content warnings for rapid technical changes #### Representation - Present: Includes both technical and business perspectives - Improve: Diverse guest speakers from different backgrounds #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful discussion of industry disruption - Improve: Acknowledgment of anxiety around job displacement ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: WordPress ecosystem advantages logically support future growth potential - Inductive strength: Training experience with 5,000 users provides solid evidence base - Causal reasoning: Clear connection between AI capability improvements and editing interface obsolescence - Analogical strength: Industrial revolution comparison effectively illustrates current moment's significance #### Fallacies - Survivorship bias: Focus on successful AI tools may overlook failed experiments - Appeal to authority: Automattic position could bias perspective on WordPress advantages #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Optimistic but realistic about disruption, balancing excitement with practical concerns ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No concerning denial patterns observed - Attack: No attacks on individuals or groups - Reverse victim/offender: No victim/offender reversal present - Emotional cues: Genuine excitement about technology balanced with honest concerns about disruption ## 🎯 Conclusion WordPress faces significant disruption from AI-powered website creation tools, but possesses unique advantages through its massive plugin ecosystem and established user base. The key insight is that users ultimately want AI instead of editors - they want to describe what they need rather than learn complex interfaces. WordPress is well-positioned to capture future AI growth waves by leveraging its ecosystem advantages, even if it missed the initial wave captured by tools like Lovable. Agencies should pivot toward business process automation and foundational skills rather than traditional front-end development work. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad Purpose: Stage CEE units that become Literature notes. Split level: H3 ### [H1] WordPress positioned for AI second wave growth > [!quote] Can WordPress Survive the AI Era? by Jamie Marsland via YouTube. Published 2025-01-10. > "I don't think we've ridden this first wave. But I do think there is an opportunity for WordPress to ride the second and third waves." Market data shows 35% growth in new websites captured by AI tools, but WordPress's plugin ecosystem provides unique leverage for future waves. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/HQX1LYErVU8?t=2120) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_wp_ai_second_wave ### [H2] AI replaces editors rather than enhancing them > [!quote] Can WordPress Survive the AI Era? > "They don't want AI inside of the editor. They want AI instead of the editor." Based on training 5,000 WordPress users, people want to describe desired outcomes rather than learn complex interfaces. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/HQX1LY --- ## Full Transcript [00:36] Heat. Heat. N. [03:24] Heat. Heat. [04:58] you too. [05:03] Hello and welcome everybody to the [05:07] stream. Uh let me know if you can hear [05:09] me. Today we have a very spicy topic as [05:14] you can already see here at the top. Can [05:17] WordPress survive the AI era? Because [05:21] we've all seen what's happening. There [05:23] is so much changing in our industry and [05:26] for this topic I have a very very [05:29] special guest. His name is Jamie Marsand [05:33] and he uh works for automatic the uh [05:36] mother company of WordPress.com. So he [05:39] is close to the fire. He knows what's [05:41] happening and what is being developed. [05:44] He is testing a lot on his channel. He's [05:46] also a YouTuber. So, I'm incredibly [05:49] excited to uh have him here on the show. [05:54] So, let me switch to the scene. And [05:59] there he is. Welcome, Jimmy. [06:02] >> Hi, Reena. How are you? [06:04] >> Good. Good. I'm excited for this one [06:07] because I have been a fan of what you've [06:11] been posting mainly on Twitter. I don't [06:14] always have time to to check all of the [06:16] um uh YouTube videos, but I do I do [06:19] actually check your channel quite a lot [06:23] um compared to others because you talk [06:24] about new stuff and you have a vision [06:27] about the future which I really admire. [06:29] You post all kinds of interesting things [06:32] on your on your Twitter on your ex. I I [06:35] still find it weird to say that because [06:36] it sounds like your ex-girlfriend, but [06:38] you whatever. uh [06:42] please tell us a little bit about [06:44] yourself, about your background, about [06:45] your relationship with WordPress and uh [06:49] and then we can dive into the main [06:51] topic. [06:52] >> Um I'll be brief. So I currently work [06:55] for Automatic. Well, I do work for [06:56] Automatic, which is an amazing place to [06:58] work with some amazing people with a [07:00] parent company of WordPress.com and also [07:02] Woo Commerce and a whole bunch of other [07:03] brands. Um and I'm currently working in [07:07] uh head of YouTube for them. So around [07:09] content creation in all sorts of really [07:11] interesting areas actually. So uh we're [07:14] doing some you know video in terms of [07:16] YouTube stuff but we're also doing some [07:17] really interesting stuff about um which [07:19] you and I have never spoken about but uh [07:21] video AI generation which is like a [07:23] really fascinating topic in itself. So [07:26] we're starting to experimenting in that [07:27] area as well. My background is [07:29] publishing. I've been in publishing all [07:30] my life on both sides. So creating [07:33] publishing systems for uh folks a long [07:36] long time ago. This is a long time ago [07:38] where we dealt with things like HTML and [07:40] you had databases and you had to push [07:42] that information to paper, internet, [07:44] CDROM and then internet. Um, but I've [07:47] also run businesses, publishing [07:48] businesses as well. Uh, and those have [07:51] been like with paper. So they've they've [07:52] had like magazines and stuff like that. [07:55] >> Um, and then I've worked for marketing [07:56] businesses creating systems for [07:58] publishing businesses. Uh and then for [08:00] the last sort of 15 years I started my [08:02] own business called Poodle Press where [08:03] we started off as a WordPress training [08:05] business which essentially was me um [08:08] traveling around the country training [08:10] people face to face like in rooms 20 [08:12] people at a time um and I've trained [08:16] about 5,000 people face to face on [08:18] WordPress. So I've got [08:20] >> a lot of experience of in classrooms [08:22] seeing people h how they actually use [08:25] WordPress. uh a lot of those people were [08:27] beginners but also trained agencies and [08:29] also did I did a series with the [08:30] Guardian newspaper Guardian master [08:32] classes and then went into big brands [08:34] and trained them. So training training [08:36] forms a big part of my DNA and my love [08:38] of WordPress and seeing how it [08:40] transforms and has transformed people's [08:42] lives there is you know it's literally [08:44] you train them in WordPress and they can [08:46] literally go off and run their [08:47] businesses and make money and start [08:48] their new thing and all that kind of [08:49] good stuff. So, and and I think the the [08:52] kind of the DNA of that is it lives [08:54] within me in terms of that beginner [08:56] WordPress experience. And it forms a lot [08:58] of my opinions of where I think this [09:00] stuff is all heading. And I think I [09:03] naturally know because I've seen 5,000 [09:05] people face to face using these tools, [09:07] >> what people want in in a tool like [09:10] WordPress and what they want to achieve. [09:11] So, that feedback loop has been [09:13] incredibly valuable in forming a lot of [09:15] the opinions. During that process, I'll [09:17] get to the point quickly. During that [09:19] process, we also built some plugins. So, [09:20] the business grew and we built some [09:22] plugins mostly around Woo Commerce and [09:23] Gutenberg. [09:25] So, I've also run a plug-in business as [09:26] well. Um, so I've kind of got a broad [09:29] I've got a lot of broad experience of um [09:32] WordPress is a multifaceted thing like [09:34] there's so many different people are [09:35] using it for so many different things. [09:37] It's very easy to get pigeonhold and [09:39] think this is WordPress. I have a fairly [09:41] good view on what people are using, but [09:43] still my view is still a bit myopic in [09:44] terms of goodness me the amount of pe [09:47] the amount of use cases that people are [09:48] using WordPress for. It's very easy to [09:50] be reductive and thinking this is what [09:52] WordPress needs to be. So I I have a [09:54] good broad vision of what WordPress how [09:56] WordPress is being used. I think um [10:00] that's a that's a a long rambly saying [10:02] my experience, but I'm passionate about [10:03] publishing and I'm I'm even more [10:05] passionate about feeling like we're [10:07] incredibly lucky to be at this moment in [10:09] this time. [10:10] >> I think these next past year and the [10:13] next four years are going to be in [10:16] incredibly foundational in terms of the [10:18] next hundred years probably. We're at [10:20] this moment like there was a 30 period [10:23] 30-year period in the in the industrial [10:25] revolution where change happened that [10:26] then impacted the next 200 years. I [10:28] think we're at that point for the next [10:30] five years that the next five years is [10:33] going to start to shape probably the [10:34] next hundred years in terms of what a [10:36] great time to be in publishing. You know [10:38] what a fortunate time to be in [10:40] publishing. It's a it's incredibly scary [10:42] and disruptive but it is also we'll look [10:44] back and think this was the moment you [10:46] were there. You were you guys were [10:48] working on tools that were shaping 43% [10:50] of the web. [10:52] >> Yeah. [10:52] >> And you were there, you know, at that [10:54] time seeing it all happen. It's like [10:56] being it's like being being at the first [10:59] ever Beatles concert or, you know, [11:00] seeing Oasis when they just about to [11:02] break through, you know. What what a [11:04] time to be what a time to be alive, [11:06] right? That's enough. That's what I'm [11:07] gonna say. Yeah. It's a very exciting [11:10] It's a very exciting time to be in [11:11] publishing. [11:12] >> I I love your your mindset about it. I [11:16] think there's a lot of fear. Uh for me [11:20] personally, I think it's it's like a mix [11:22] of fear and excitement. Like some days I [11:25] wake up and I'm like, "Oh what's [11:27] what's happening?" And then the next day [11:29] I'm like, "Yeah, let's go." [11:31] >> Yeah, I'm I'm the same. I have I have um [11:33] I have three daughters and I I wake I do [11:35] have 3:00 a.m. moments where I wake up [11:37] >> and I'm I'm worrying about what they're [11:40] and they're all kind of university age. [11:42] I'm like, "What are they going to be [11:43] doing in five years time? what's the you [11:45] know for information economy workers [11:47] what are they going to be do so I'm the [11:48] same I do have [11:50] >> I'm very optimistic about this stuff and [11:51] I'm very excited about it and I'm [11:54] >> on it all the time like thinking about [11:56] it or playing with it or developing on [11:58] it but I still [12:00] >> I still part of my brain is this is [12:02] existentially very bad and it's we're [12:04] probably going to we could end up in a [12:06] really really bad place. [12:08] >> Yeah. Oh, [12:11] wait, [12:12] wait. Where's Jamie? Wait. Are you guys [12:16] also not seeing him anymore? [12:19] Wait, wait, wait, wait. What's going on? [12:22] Jamie, where are you? Uh oh. We're [12:25] having a little bit of a technical [12:26] difficulty. I am very sorry, [12:33] guys. [12:35] I'm sorry. We have to I will text him. [12:37] Uh let's see what's happening there. Uh [12:40] yes, he's gone. Okay. Okay. So, it's not [12:42] just me. Okay. Well, in the meantime, [12:44] let me know where you're watching from. [12:46] Uh I see a lot of people in the chat. [12:48] It's very nice. But unfortunately, Jamie [12:50] uh uh Oh, ecam crashed. Okay. All right. [12:54] So, something crashed. The link is on uh [12:56] WhatsApp, Jamie. So, please jump back in [12:58] because I was hanging on your lips and I [13:02] think everybody was. [13:04] Yes. Bad place came earlier. [13:08] Sockets time out. Used up tokens. [13:12] What? What do you mean tokens? You mean [13:14] AI tokens? [13:16] Okay, we're having people watching from [13:19] Netherlands, France, and we have uh [13:22] Denmark, [13:24] and what else do we have over here? We [13:27] have people from uh Germany. We have uh [13:31] Paul from the USA. We have Lana from [13:35] Ukraine. [13:36] I think she's still in the Ukraine [13:38] because she's from Kroger Block. And we [13:40] have Jeremy from the UK. Um, [13:45] Jamie, you have to pay. Yeah, you have [13:46] to pay. You have to pay for the [13:50] for the [13:53] for the AI credits. Wait, he's sending [13:55] me a WhatsApp. Unable to start a call. [13:58] Socket close. Time out. What is this, [14:01] Jamie? This is so weird, Jamie. This is [14:05] uh what? This is bad. Okay, let's chat [14:07] with chat GPT. [14:10] Let's chat with chat GPT. Oh, wait. No, [14:13] let's do clot. Does my clot start up? I [14:16] think it will. [14:19] Okay. Um. [14:23] Oh, there he is. There he is. Okay. [14:25] Okay. I was just about to ask Claude. [14:28] There he is. [14:31] What happened? What? What did you send [14:34] to me? What is that? S socket close [14:36] timeout. [14:38] >> I had to delivery. No, there was some [14:41] technical problem with ecam, I think. [14:42] Let's hope it doesn't [14:44] >> Let's hope it doesn't happen again. I've [14:45] never seen that before. [14:47] >> Yeah. [14:48] >> Okay. Anyway, where where were you were [14:50] in the middle of uh something, but now I [14:52] I got a bit lost. [14:54] >> Uh I was I was rambling about um this [14:57] moment of AI excitement that we're in. [15:00] >> Yeah. [15:00] >> Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I was saying like [15:02] I I love your mindset about it. I think [15:04] some some days are fear, some days are [15:06] are exciting. Uh of course we should [15:09] look at the exciting part of life. If we [15:11] start to look at the negative sides, [15:13] then nothing great will come from that. [15:15] But we have to face the reality uh that [15:19] we're in a very disruptive time and [15:22] disruption means that we have to let go [15:24] of certain things. Um, and for me to to [15:30] slowly get into the to the topic, um, [15:33] for me, one of these moments was when [15:36] when I started to see, and this is only [15:37] like one or two weeks old, when when, [15:41] uh, we're starting to see that the AI [15:43] experience we have seen in external [15:46] tools. [15:48] External tools. Yeah, external tools. [15:51] That was my camera. External tools like [15:53] lovable and bold. Um, [15:56] >> yeah. that kind of vibe coding just [15:58] prompt and things get generated. We're [16:00] now starting to see this kind of stuff [16:03] pop off inside of the builders we [16:06] already use. And you are a big fan of [16:08] Gutenberg. I'm more like an Elementor [16:11] guy, but I also have a lot of friends [16:13] who work with in in bricks. I have [16:15] friends who work in DV u but we're [16:17] starting to see demos now where [16:20] >> where we can generate a website inside [16:24] of the builder and then it's using the [16:26] proper block structure or widget [16:29] structure and when I saw that and I have [16:34] a demo which I want to show because you [16:36] have actually been sharing some very [16:38] interesting stuff on Twitter uh or acts [16:41] let me change in my browser can we all [16:44] see Yes. Let me see if they can still [16:47] hear you. Can you say something? [16:50] >> Oh, yeah. I'm here. [16:51] >> Okay. Okay. So, um Jamie shares uh very [16:55] interesting stuff on his on his uh [16:57] Twitter. You can see that he made this [17:00] website. I mean, this looks amazing and [17:03] it's cloud code connected inside of [17:06] WordPress using the new WordPress.com [17:09] connector. I'm not sure how this works. [17:12] Is this is this generating Gutenberg [17:14] blocks or is it just straight code? [17:17] >> Uh that example I think is straight code [17:19] actually but the but it it can I I [17:22] produced one another tweet which is [17:25] pretty identical that which is [17:27] Gutenberg. Now WordPress.com was just [17:29] released. We haven't really talked about [17:30] it yet. We're about to talk about an MCP [17:32] connector. So you can actually talk via [17:34] clause to a wordpress.com site [17:37] >> which is really the really cool bit [17:38] about it though the bit where I had a a [17:41] sort of eureka moment as in this is [17:44] really really cool is the way we've [17:46] written the MCP in WordPress.com it's [17:48] not just talking to WordPress which is [17:50] nice in itself but the MCP [17:52] the connection will understand the the [17:54] entirety of your website so and it [17:56] understands the entire stack of your [17:58] website or will do [18:00] >> and so what that means is when when you [18:02] talk to it you don't have to tell it [18:04] what fonts and what what colors and what [18:07] CSS your site is is using. It knows that [18:10] intuitively [18:11] >> which is like that's really cool because [18:13] then you can say right build me a [18:14] landing page. [18:15] >> Yeah. [18:16] >> And it needs to have this kind of [18:17] content. It'll go off and do it but [18:19] it'll actually understand your your [18:20] design aesthetic. And I did a few other [18:23] tests with it like I said which is quite [18:24] cool. So you can start to do new stuff [18:26] with it like you can say from this [18:28] website create me a brand guideline [18:30] document that I can send to an agency. [18:31] and it just did it, you know, like [18:33] >> yeah, [18:33] >> few seconds later, beautiful brand [18:35] document or analyze this against my [18:38] competitors for SEO and it comes back [18:41] with an SEO plan. So, for the first [18:43] time, like a lot of the tools I've been [18:45] playing with with AI and WordPress, [18:47] they've been little tools built within [18:49] WordPress. [18:50] >> Yeah. [18:50] >> Like create some content, add an alt um [18:53] tag to my images, [18:55] >> you know, blahy blah blah. for the first [18:57] time with these tools. It it understands [19:00] your entire stack, which is a which is a [19:02] huge thing. Like when I'm talking to [19:03] Lovable, it it naturally it naturally [19:06] understands my entire stack because [19:08] that's what the stack is built on. It [19:10] just knows everything about what I'm [19:11] what I'm trying to do. For the first [19:13] time, I had that moment last week with [19:15] WordPress.com MCP. It's like, oh, it [19:18] really does understand my entire [19:20] website. And that's that's a huge shift [19:22] over and above just building little [19:24] tools within little plugins within the [19:26] WordPress stack once it once AI can [19:28] understand the entire website. [19:30] >> Yeah, [19:30] >> it can kind of it it it becomes a proper [19:34] design partner for you. So it was a good [19:36] moment. [19:37] >> Yeah. Well, I I I also had this moment [19:41] last week. I did create this simple demo [19:44] um and it's not perfect but this was [19:46] completely generated with with cloud and [19:48] and this is not yet what you're [19:50] describing but it I just literally [19:53] started in the desktop application of [19:55] cloud code. I connected to WordPress [19:56] studio MCP and it's a boring layout. I [19:59] mean it's three everything is three [20:00] three columns but and and the fonts are [20:03] messed up here. It's not even it's not [20:04] even using the right colors etc. But [20:06] like the fact that it could do that was [20:09] really impressive because I I also had a [20:13] moment this week with with cloud code [20:14] where I could wait let me switch back to [20:17] the to the this one. [20:20] Um, I had a moment where I connected [20:23] Cloud Code via the MCP to my accounting [20:26] software and then I wrote a specific [20:30] skill on how for the software [20:34] subscriptions that I have in my business [20:36] and how how I need to fail that to the [20:38] government in the Netherlands, right? [20:40] And so instead of just asking CHPD like, [20:43] hey, how should I fail this? No, this is [20:45] specifically made for me. This is [20:47] literally how I trained a person in my [20:49] company four years ago. Uh uh like this [20:52] company you should file that as as this. [20:56] >> And so I saw like just claude is [21:00] amazing. MCPs are amazing because your [21:03] agent can do stuff on its own in these [21:05] other tools. But then combining that [21:07] with skills, that's where you can then [21:09] set up the instructions and and we can [21:13] what what's probably is going to happen [21:15] that WordPress itself will roll out a [21:17] skill or a plug-in. I'm not exactly sure [21:19] that in cloth code what the difference [21:21] is between a plug-in and a and a skill, [21:24] but it's a set of instructions. Um, and [21:26] then if you combine that with your own [21:28] workflow, uh, so your own classes, like [21:31] you said, your own color system, [21:33] whatever. Yeah, that is incredibly [21:35] powerful. like this is uh it's not as [21:38] big of a moment as when cloth came out [21:41] or I mean when chat GPT came out that [21:43] that was of course the the the big boom [21:45] in in our industry but I don't know [21:48] about you but I feel like this moment is [21:49] also one of these absolutely big mo well [21:53] not the moment as AI was was invented or [21:56] generative AI was invented but it's it's [21:58] it's this moment of like wait I can [22:01] connect all of my tools and I can build [22:03] it exactly for my workflow and that also [22:07] means that I can make it exactly for the [22:10] clients my client's workflow. I just [22:12] need to figure out what they're what [22:14] what they're doing, right? And then we [22:16] can build all kinds of systems. So, [22:18] >> yeah. Do you also see it this way that [22:20] this is one of these big big moments? [22:22] >> Yeah, I think I think um [22:25] and by the way, there's a massive [22:27] opportunity for agencies to go into [22:29] customers like you've just described and [22:31] automate their businesses and [22:33] >> bring AI into the business. That's just [22:34] such a huge opportunity if you're if [22:36] you're if you're sitting there worrying [22:38] about the fact that you might lose some [22:40] of this front end design CSS stuff. [22:43] There's even more opportunity to go into [22:46] customers and say you could improve this [22:49] um by automating all this stuff through [22:51] AI and bring all these tools. I mean [22:53] huge huge opportunities there. Um but [22:55] yeah, I I I sense the same thing like [22:56] can I show you can I share my screen on [22:58] a few things that have happened recently [23:00] that maybe people haven't seen. Is that [23:01] possible? [23:01] >> Of course. That would be that would be [23:03] super cool. [23:04] Let me switch to this one. Let me just [23:07] quickly check the comments. In the [23:08] meantime, somebody said, "My connection [23:10] is not good." Oh, VTO. Veto is here from [23:13] uh [23:14] >> um Atarim. Is it still bad, FTO? [23:18] Um nice alignment on the I know my [23:21] website is bad. It was just generated [23:22] with cloud. Okay. Don't don't criticize [23:25] my design, guys. We're we're So, we're [23:28] talking about WordPress replacement plus [23:30] AI plus WordPress combo. So, where was [23:33] Yeah, I'm gonna ask this question. We're [23:35] gonna get to this question, okay? But [23:37] we're first needing to talk a little bit [23:39] about um [23:43] AI generation inside of WordPress [23:46] because [23:47] that's also here and that's that's what [23:50] Jamie is showing now. And then of course [23:51] we're also going to ask critical [23:53] questions like where does WordPress have [23:56] a place uh in a world where everything [23:59] can be generated and databases can [24:02] connected. But let's first [24:04] show or let's first look at some [24:06] examples that are AI in WordPress [24:10] because we're not just magically going [24:12] to switch tomorrow to our all all our [24:15] website. We're not going to switch that [24:16] to AI coding Vive coding tools. That's [24:18] not going to happen. Right? So, uh, [24:21] yeah, let's, uh, let's get into this. [24:24] >> So, I'm going to show you a few sites. [24:25] These have all been vioded. These are [24:27] all Gutenberg block theme sites that now [24:29] in TX, which is automatic's kind of [24:32] experimental block generation tool, [24:35] which previously you could create like [24:37] block plugins. Now, you can create block [24:39] themes in it, which we haven't talked [24:40] about, but we're about to. And I'm going [24:42] to show you some early stuff. So, these [24:43] these is I was prepping a demo and I [24:45] built these sites. So, this is one here. [24:48] This is just vibe coded. But my point of [24:50] showing you this stuff is we're getting [24:52] to the point now where lovable was last [24:55] year in terms of the front-end design [24:57] stuff. We can achieve some really cool [24:59] I'm going to show you a few other ones. [25:01] We can achieve some really cool um front [25:03] end designs. Let me show you. I've got a [25:05] couple more here to show you. [25:07] >> This is already quite cool. It's like it [25:09] feels humanmade. It feels custom, not [25:11] like the the boring blocky. [25:14] >> No, exactly. I got to stop sharing that [25:16] and share this one. [25:18] This is another one. [25:20] Let me [25:22] hold on. [25:23] >> This one here. [25:25] >> Okay. [25:28] >> Yeah, I'll replay it. Hold on. Let's go [25:30] back [25:33] one second. Here we go. Can you see [25:36] that? [25:37] >> Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah, [25:40] >> it's cool, right? [25:40] >> Yeah, that's cool. [25:41] >> This is all built with TX. So people can [25:43] if anyone's watching, you can go to TX [25:45] now and vibe code a block theme. [25:48] >> Wait, people that don't know. [25:50] >> Yeah, sorry. Go on. [25:51] >> Yeah, for the people that don't know, [25:53] you're saying you can just go to TX. But [25:55] the the the from what I know what TX is [25:58] is is a is a widget generator or as it's [26:01] called in Gutenberg, a block gener [26:03] generator. You can create custom block. [26:04] But you're saying you can create a whole [26:06] website. Now [26:07] >> you can create well a block theme. This [26:09] is I mean this is essentially a website [26:11] but it's a blog theme that you can then [26:12] download and use on a customer site. [26:14] This is ready today. Um at the moment it [26:17] just creates like the index template. So [26:20] it doesn't create your other templates [26:21] but you can reprompt it to create all [26:23] those templates. It's really cool. Um [26:25] I'm going to show you another one. I've [26:26] got one more to show you. I think [26:28] >> this is really cool. [26:30] >> Um so let's just drag this one in. [26:35] Maybe I don't. Hold on. [26:41] Oh, I don't have the other one here. I [26:42] don't think. Do I? [26:46] Oh, maybe. Oh, yeah. I do have one more. [26:48] Yeah. Okay. This one here. Let me just [26:55] Oh, no. Uh, [26:58] I may have shown you this. Let me share [26:59] it anyway because I may not have done [27:07] This shows you, let me rewind this. This [27:09] shows you the process currently in TX [27:11] when you're actually so TX gives you [27:13] like four choices. [27:16] You you vi you basically vibe code and [27:18] then it will give you four choices and [27:20] then you choose the design you like. [27:24] >> Oh wow. [27:26] >> Cool. Right. And then and then you can [27:27] go off and further prompt. [27:29] >> Wait, so TX is like a vibe coding tool. [27:32] It's not just a widget generator. Exact. [27:34] Yes, exactly. You got it. Yeah. [27:36] >> Oh, I didn't know that. Oh, that's So, [27:39] >> we haven't we haven't really publicized [27:40] this yet. Um, but the functionality is [27:43] there and you can go and play with it [27:44] and start experimenting with it. But [27:47] it's really cool. It's very powerful. [27:50] Um, [27:50] >> but this is really new stuff, right? [27:53] >> Really new. Yeah. You're the first [27:54] person to see this, Reena. [27:55] >> Well, oh, uh, well, okay. Uh, that's [27:57] really cool. Thank you. Thank you for [27:59] giving this demo. It's the first time on [28:02] YouTube. My Yeah, cool. My point is for [28:05] the first time this feels I mean tell me [28:08] what you think after you played with it. [28:09] This feels like a experience to me in [28:12] terms of the kind of designs that we're [28:14] starting to be able to create um with [28:16] core WordPress blocks because the models [28:18] have got so good. [28:20] >> Yeah. [28:21] >> That they start to understand block [28:23] markup. Now there's another question [28:25] about [28:27] block markup and the future of editing. [28:30] And a lot of this is a lot of this stuff [28:32] is uh for discussion but these [28:35] experiments are happening and we're in a [28:38] different place to where we were three [28:40] months ago in terms of the technology. [28:42] December was a big shift, right? I don't [28:44] know if you felt it. December felt like [28:45] a a big shift in terms of what these [28:47] what the capability of of all these [28:49] models was. And it's um it's kind of [28:52] incredible where we're at. [28:54] >> Yeah. I I mean I took I took time off of [28:56] work in in December and when I yeah when [28:58] I came back it felt like wait this is [29:00] this is a different world. It was not [29:01] just a different year. [29:04] >> Yeah. Yeah. I had I had a week and I had [29:06] I had a week off. I went to the moldies [29:08] for for a week and I came back and it [29:10] was everyone was talking about um [29:13] >> 4.5 [29:16] I missed Remotion and I missed um [29:20] >> I think yeah so I missed like the two [29:21] biggest things that happen but that's [29:22] like every week at the moment right [29:24] we've kind of you take some time away [29:26] and the world has changed so it's it's [29:29] hard it's I mean it's one of the issues [29:31] I've got as a content creator it's [29:32] impossible to keep up you spend your [29:34] whole time like if you're going to [29:35] create some content getting off topic. [29:37] If you if you're going to try try and [29:39] create some content, you've got to keep [29:40] up, understand the thing, understand the [29:42] thing deeply. [29:43] >> Yeah. [29:44] >> To be able to communicate it. So, it's a [29:46] it's a hard time to be in content. It's [29:48] a harder time to be in product, but it's [29:49] a hard time to be in content. [29:51] >> Yeah. But Yeah. But Okay. But yes. Yes. [29:53] And yes, but think about the agencies [29:55] like I I talk to to many of my friends [29:57] who who have who have agencies and and [30:00] like I don't have a lot of time for for [30:01] for client work. I'd love to do more but [30:04] I because this takes a lot of time to [30:08] create uh quality content but um I okay [30:13] yes we're absolutely there and that's [30:15] why I'm trying to do a lot of live [30:16] stream because I don't have to plan it. [30:18] I don't have to edit it. We're just [30:19] talking and it's live and it's done and [30:21] it's not it's nice and it's interactive. [30:23] But like we have the time to to explore [30:28] this and then record it and publish it. [30:31] like a lot of agencies they have to [30:35] focus their time on client work right [30:36] now and you're you're using the tool you [30:39] cannot easily switch to another tool and [30:41] that's why I also think that people who [30:43] say like oh WordPress is doomed the [30:45] WordPress is over next year it's like [30:47] well do you realize that that first of [30:51] all most websites do not get a refresh [30:54] every year it's it's more around I think [30:56] it's more around four years that every [30:58] website gets a refresh right Now AI is [31:02] has a lot of risks. Uh it's not super [31:05] developed yet uh to the point where [31:08] where where everybody well where where [31:11] we think it's safe and it's good enough. [31:13] So I think for the next few years most [31:16] websites are not going to change just [31:18] because there's no need to completely [31:22] rebuild your website with with VIP [31:24] coding. Um uh but I feel like if you're [31:27] doing client work right now, you feel [31:28] like the the earth is moving beneath [31:31] your feet. Um um and and that's just one [31:35] thing that I want to say about that and [31:36] I want your vision on it as well and [31:38] then we get and then we're going to get [31:39] into this topic of WordPress and page [31:41] builders. But um do you also feel like [31:46] the the [31:49] well probably the the FOMO of of trying [31:52] to keep up with all of this Um but [31:55] but then also [31:58] that it's better to just focus on the [32:01] perspective that the world and the [32:05] humans are going to be here and the [32:06] technology is is is [32:09] going um improving. so fast right now [32:13] and especially when we reach when we [32:15] reach a GI not sure if that's going to [32:18] happen but if the AI can start to [32:20] improve itself then the yeah I feel like [32:23] the gap between what what is [32:25] technologically possible and what humans [32:28] where humans are that gap is is going to [32:31] grow so this this thing will go up and [32:33] up and it's like [32:36] it's impossible to catch and so how do [32:38] we deal with that I think we should just [32:40] let it go let it go up and just try to [32:46] look at what the humans are doing right [32:48] now and the businesses and try to just [32:50] move them up a little bit. How do you [32:52] deal with this anxiety of the the FOMO? [32:55] >> Um I that's a great question. I think um [32:59] it depends what situation you're in. If [33:00] you're if you're sitting there and [33:01] you're you've got to pay your mortgage [33:03] and you've got um you know you got [33:06] children to feed and all that stuff and [33:07] you're running a business I think there [33:09] are massive opportunities in the [33:11] disruption that you know pick a pick a [33:14] lane and go after it. Like I was saying [33:16] there's a huge amount of opportunity for [33:18] business process optimization at the [33:20] moment. It's just so vast the [33:21] opportunity that you know how you bring [33:23] in AI into a business and um that's a [33:26] huge opportunity. So I'd look for like [33:28] try not to worry about [33:31] um the weight of everything like look at [33:34] certain opportunities. There's massive [33:36] there's money in the mountains if you [33:37] just go searching for it. I think at the [33:39] moment for agencies that have typically [33:41] done this kind of work that I don't see [33:44] I don't see people being paid to writing [33:46] C for writing CSS in three years time. I [33:49] don't think that's where I don't see the [33:51] market going there. But I think there's [33:53] even more opportunity around like I see [33:55] a lot of I see a lot of WordPress [33:56] websites that aren't [33:59] aren't aren't brilliant and could be [34:01] improved through AI like most of them I [34:03] see could be improved and that and the [34:05] processes that fall off those could be [34:07] improved. So I think there's a massive [34:09] opportunity to make things a lot better [34:13] for you know if you're if you're looking [34:15] to make money out of this stuff there's [34:17] probably it's going to feel very [34:19] disruptive but I don't think it's going [34:20] to be writing CSS. I think it's the [34:22] value is going to move from the [34:23] front-end design stuff. And then in [34:26] terms of my thinking around where I [34:28] spend my time, I'm trying to think [34:29] foundationally around the time I spend [34:32] on this stuff. So take video AI [34:35] generation for example, which is a huge [34:37] interest of mine at the moment. I'm I've [34:41] been doing a lot of kind of foundational [34:42] work around learning storytelling and [34:44] learning how films are made and how to [34:47] write as opposed to spending all my time [34:50] I'm spending a lot of time actually but [34:52] spending all my time in the tooling you [34:54] know step back and say what are actually [34:55] the foundational skills that regardless [34:58] of where the technology is in years time [35:00] are going to be incredibly valuable in [35:02] years time for me personally or for you [35:05] personally and for for video generation [35:07] that's storytelling and it's how to [35:09] write and how to pace and that's that [35:11] doesn't matter what tool you're using [35:13] that stuff is still [35:14] >> regardless of the tooling learning that [35:16] stuff now is is probably more important [35:18] than the tooling because that's going to [35:20] put in goodstead when video generation [35:22] finally gets to a point which I'm hugely [35:24] excited about that I can just talk to it [35:26] and craft a story. I mean it's it's [35:28] clunky now but it won't be clunky in a [35:30] year's time. So that would be my advice. [35:32] Think of what the foundational stuff is [35:34] that you'll you know where the value [35:36] foundationally is for you and put [35:38] learning into that stuff. [35:40] >> Okay. So apart I just want to go a [35:42] little bit on that sidet track that you [35:44] that you introduced and then I want to [35:45] go back to WordPress but do you also [35:47] feel like we are we should not think in [35:51] terms of web designer web developer [35:54] anymore but more like systems architects [35:58] or uh elementor calls calls it web [36:01] creator which is more like a general [36:03] term um instead of thinking about [36:06] writing CSS or making a design more [36:09] pretty It's it's it's we're going beyond [36:12] websites. I mean, the the creative [36:14] skills um can be used in other areas and [36:19] and that's that's a that's valuable for [36:22] for companies, right? So, should we [36:24] think even outside of websites apart [36:28] from the WordPress conversation? [36:30] >> Yeah. Well, I I think it depends a bit [36:32] on what you're comfortable with and what [36:34] you're what you want to do and [36:36] >> okay, [36:37] >> but I I can I can see where the value [36:39] probably isn't going to be um probably [36:42] look forward and say where is the value [36:44] going to be in three years time for me [36:45] as a business or an individual. And I [36:47] don't think it's going to be in some of [36:49] the places where we've historically [36:51] where kind of the small agency market [36:53] and WordPress has typically um made [36:57] their money. I think it's going to be in [36:58] different places. Now, I think you can [37:00] probably start to assume where those [37:01] places are going to be and start to move [37:02] your business that way. So, I think it [37:05] it really depends on where each business [37:07] is at because there's going to be so [37:08] many niche examples of how how folks are [37:10] making money out there. But, I think you [37:13] can see a bit like you can see with [37:14] like, you know, my worries about my [37:16] children, where their value is going to [37:17] be in time, the type of work they're [37:19] going to be doing. I think you can start [37:20] to plot where AI is going to be in a [37:22] year, two years time, three years time. [37:24] >> Yeah. [37:24] >> And I don't think you want to be in [37:26] those places as a business. you want to [37:28] be in where's the value going to be for [37:30] that and that might be tying today tying [37:32] together these tools but it might I [37:34] think I think as well it's going to be [37:36] in whole new areas that we haven't even [37:38] we haven't even we don't even know about [37:40] yet in terms of you know AI video [37:43] generation is going to be honestly it's [37:44] going to be the most massive I mean it's [37:45] big now but it's going to be the most [37:47] massive have the most massive impact on [37:49] the world in my view okay and it's going [37:52] to impact us culturally and in all sorts [37:53] of places so you know where's that going [37:55] to be in years time what does that mean [37:57] for opportunities. Do I want to start an [37:59] AI video um production company? [38:02] >> Okay. Okay. I don't know about I I have [38:04] no idea what your what what your ideas [38:06] with the AI video generation, but I [38:08] would love to talk about that. But I do [38:10] want to park that on a on a separate uh [38:14] call or a a separate uh live stream [38:17] because I'm very interested in it [38:18] personally. But I do want to [38:20] specifically focus a little bit on the [38:23] part that you said about the numbers. [38:26] So, can you Oh, can you stop sharing [38:29] your screen? [38:30] >> Yeah. Actually, I've got another Can I [38:31] show you one more chart while we're [38:32] here? [38:33] >> Okay. Oh, well, actually, I have the [38:34] chart that that you that I the chart. [38:39] >> Have you got that? The one with the [38:40] growth. [38:41] >> Yeah. Here. This one. This one. This is [38:43] what I Okay. Okay. So, this is what I [38:45] what I wanted to to get to when you said [38:48] we don't know where this is all going. [38:50] Of course, that's true. um um nobody has [38:54] has an has a real idea but but what we [38:57] do know is numbers right we can track [39:00] stuff and so this is a very interesting [39:02] graph that you shared on an article that [39:04] was called wave 1 went to lovable why [39:08] wave two might be a different story okay [39:10] so can you explain while I'm zooming [39:12] into this what what are we looking at [39:15] here and why did it make you think [39:18] >> so this is a chart that shows the growth [39:21] in coding over the past few years, [39:24] right? And it shows a huge that we've [39:26] gone through a huge um peak and what [39:29] we've got on the left is the number of [39:30] new websites that are being built gone [39:32] up massively. I think it's about 35%. Uh [39:34] then the number of new OS apps and then [39:36] we've got some GitHub stuff over on the [39:38] right. There's another bit here of this [39:40] chart which is missing in my view which [39:42] is software actually. I think we've seen [39:43] a massive um and I'm not sure quite how [39:46] they're classifying. I think we've [39:47] probably seen a massive wave of new [39:48] software being built because a lot of [39:50] these vibe coding apps actually let you [39:52] build software. But what this says to me [39:55] is that there has been a huge growth in [39:57] new websites. But I don't think we've [39:59] felt that yet in the WordPress space. I [40:02] might be wrong, but me talking to [40:04] agencies and folks haven't seen an [40:06] explosion of growth. I think we've been [40:08] and if you look at the kind of WordPress [40:10] interest over time, I think we've se [40:12] seen a slight plateauing of interest and [40:15] that's because these vi vi coding tools [40:17] that we hadn't heard about two years [40:18] ago. Nobody had heard about lovable I [40:20] don't think lovable existed two years [40:21] ago. Lovable and bolt new had nobody had [40:24] heard of these two years ago but they've [40:25] come into this market and they've seen [40:26] enormous growth. Um and actually I do [40:29] have some numbers on lovable but not [40:31] here. Um [40:32] >> it's the fastest growing company in [40:33] Europe right now. I heard [40:35] >> I think ever probably software company [40:37] ever. So it's it's had enormous growth [40:38] and I think and and and that's because [40:41] they've they don't have any legacy. It's [40:44] very simple to build with. They don't [40:46] have WordPress's abstractions to deal [40:47] with. But I do my point of the article [40:50] was showing this graph and say I don't [40:51] think we've written this first wave. But [40:53] I do think there is an opportunity for [40:55] WordPress um to ride the second and [40:58] third waves which I think often happens [40:59] with technologies whereas the the [41:02] newbies come into the market and because [41:03] they have no legacy it's very easy for [41:05] them to build out and grow. WordPress is [41:07] a bit like an oil tanker. It's slower to [41:09] adapt. But now actually with the models [41:11] getting so good, it's getting to the [41:14] point where it can, as you've seen some [41:16] of the designs I've shown you, it can [41:17] start to compete in terms of the design. [41:20] So I think what WordPress's opportunity [41:21] is is to catch the second and third [41:24] waves as it evolves and the models get [41:26] better. And the work that James Leage is [41:28] doing within uh the core AI team is [41:31] fabulous as well. So there's some great [41:32] stuff going on within WordPress. the [41:35] models are getting incredibly good so [41:36] they can understand WordPress. So [41:38] WordPress it it probably feels slow for [41:42] folks at the moment but it it is quite [41:44] well positioned in terms of there is 43% [41:47] of the web um that is using it. So what [41:51] we might see, here's a prediction. What [41:52] we might see over the next few years is [41:55] the number of sites being built with [41:58] WordPress might grow again, but its [42:00] market share might dropped, which is [42:02] quite a because I think [42:04] >> I think the overall market is growing [42:06] enormously. And I think people like [42:08] lovable will continue to grow, [42:10] >> but I I think there will be [42:12] >> there's still a massive opportunity in [42:13] WordPress in that space. Even though we [42:15] might look at the market share numbers, [42:16] they might not be at 43%. [42:19] But the number of the the monetary [42:22] opportunity for folks building on [42:23] WordPress might be bigger because the [42:25] whole market is growing quite you know [42:26] there's still a a huge market [42:28] opportunity for new websites as that [42:30] chart shows us. [42:31] >> Yeah. So what you're actually describing [42:34] is a change in accessibility and we're [42:38] yeah [42:38] >> we're I'm not talking about web [42:40] accessibility like making your button [42:42] link so so uh you can open it in a in a [42:46] screen reader. Uh, no. I I mean like [42:49] accessibility as in [42:52] um [42:54] making the web accessible because I I'm [42:57] actually working on a on a on a video um [43:00] uh like this uh where I'm I'm making a [43:03] visualization of the three phases of of [43:07] web development. And the first phase [43:10] what I see uh what I think is that it [43:13] was uh completely developer or coding [43:17] dependence. Uh but then around 2018 19 [43:22] uh DV was the first one but that was [43:24] still in the back end with dragging and [43:26] dropping short code blocks. But then at [43:28] some point Elementor came and that was [43:30] the first full front end or it was not [43:33] the absolute first one but the first one [43:35] that did it properly and had proper [43:37] marketing etc. And so yeah, [43:39] >> this then attracted guys like me because [43:40] I was in that time I still had a I [43:43] already wanted to make websites and web [43:46] web apps as well, but I I I couldn't. So [43:48] I had to work uh with a developer in [43:51] order to create WordPress customized [43:52] WordPress themes, right? That's how [43:54] things were done. people were [43:55] downloading something from Team Forest [43:57] and then and then if you're lucky you [44:00] could you could finish with with a Team [44:02] Forest theme but probably not because [44:04] there's some limitations and it was [44:06] built uh not perfectly and so you had to [44:09] customize it uh in order to yeah do [44:11] anything so Elementor obviously solved [44:14] that issue [44:16] uh not completely it's not that themes [44:18] were completely irrelevant but I think [44:19] they captured most of the market and I [44:22] would even argue that some parts of [44:25] WordPress growth has come from Elementor [44:28] because WordPress itself didn't provide [44:30] much more [44:32] after they introduced a whole plug-in [44:35] directory. The plug-in directory is [44:36] incredibly useful because it's it's a [44:39] whole system of yeah, literally two [44:42] clicks uh install and activate that's [44:45] that's and then you get a lot of [44:47] functionality which is even easier than [44:49] VIP coding an SEO tool for example. But [44:52] um um we yeah the market moved to this [44:56] to this point where um we didn't have to [44:59] look at the code anymore. We we could [45:01] make stuff without a traditional [45:04] developer. [45:06] But now we're getting to a new phase, [45:09] right? And this is [45:12] another foundational step. And it's not [45:15] just what you what you said. way. I want [45:17] to go to another of your articles which [45:19] I found fascinating which you actually [45:20] posted this morning. I am so lucky that [45:23] I'm talking to you today. Um yeah, this [45:26] good such a good moment here. Look this [45:29] this article [45:31] uh on your Twitter called are we uh are [45:34] we in WordPress asking the right [45:36] questions? And then uh you said [45:41] you said [45:43] uh that people just just want a website, [45:46] right? That's that's you've been [45:47] teaching all of these people. That's [45:48] what you said in the beginning of this [45:50] this this live stream. You've been [45:51] teaching in real life in front of a a [45:54] class. And um um but if you want to work [45:57] with WordPress, which is you know what [45:59] you have explained for years and what I [46:01] did on on YouTube, you have to uh learn [46:04] 74 interfaces or 74 buttons, multiple [46:08] interfaces. Then you have a theme layer. [46:11] What what is that in in today's world [46:13] even from a non-coder perspective, [46:16] right? Uh you have all of these [46:17] different um uh plugins. Um, WordPress [46:21] has made things easier, but they haven't [46:24] really, in my opinion, and please uh uh [46:27] push back if you don't agree, but in my [46:29] opinion, uh, um, Gutenberg and the whole [46:32] blockbased editing has been a maybe a [46:36] little bit too late, uh, uh, coming to [46:39] full development because that whole wave [46:43] is now, yeah, has been taken by [46:46] Elementor and now we're going to get to [46:47] the point of AI and And before you [46:50] respond, I do want to point out one [46:52] thing. Um, [46:57] uh, in other words, they wanted [46:58] something that just work. For 20 years, [47:00] we couldn't build that. So, we built [47:02] editors instead. Yeah. So, editors like [47:04] Elementor that could interact with the [47:06] code. And then you said something here. [47:11] A lot of products in our space, so in [47:13] the WordPress space are asking, how do [47:16] we add AI into our existing tools? That [47:18] was the first AI tools we saw, right? A [47:20] plugin or generate a blog post, generate [47:22] alt text, generate an image. Sure, which [47:25] often results in something like a [47:27] button. Yeah, AI assistant. But the [47:29] question might be backwards because a [47:31] real question might be what do our [47:33] customers want? [47:35] Um, from your experience, you say, and [47:39] this is the key, they don't want AI [47:41] inside of the editor. They want AI [47:44] instead of the editor. [47:48] >> For decades, the natural interface have [47:50] used complex systems, etc. So you're [47:53] talking about this concept of [47:54] abstraction which is what Elementor did [47:57] to customizing themes and I feel like AI [48:01] may may do this to um to uh page [48:06] builders whether that's Gutenberg or uh [48:10] Element or DV whatever um because it can [48:15] bypass [48:17] that. So, how how do you how do you see [48:20] that? Because you're also optimistic [48:21] about the future of WordPress. [48:25] >> Yeah. Well, I I kind of WordPress if you [48:28] look at its history has gone through [48:30] many iterations in terms of its editing [48:32] experience from HTML, Tiny MCE. Um, [48:37] and then we went Gutenberg and then and [48:40] now we've kind of got AI. And it's like [48:42] if you if you if you say what what does [48:44] somebody actually want to achieve? They [48:45] want to achieve a web page layout. if [48:46] they can do that. Why I don't see people [48:49] and I love Gutenberg obviously I love [48:50] Gutenberg but I think we're going to [48:52] look back in five years time and there [48:54] are obviously use cases where people [48:56] we're be we're being quite reductive [48:57] around some of this conversation but [48:59] there are use cases where people are [49:00] always going to be using this stuff but [49:02] I don't see in five years time a typical [49:04] beginner will will want to add a column [49:07] layout to a website by adding a columns [49:10] block first. I just don't see that in in [49:12] three years time. But that's in my [49:14] experience of teaching beginners. They [49:16] don't want to do that. They just want to [49:17] be able to tell something to do it for [49:19] them. And that's probably chat. Um and [49:23] it does it beautifully better than they [49:24] could have ever imagined. And that's [49:26] that's based on my experience of [49:27] teaching 5,000 people in classrooms for [49:29] the last 10 years. I don't see and I [49:32] think that's okay. WordPress still that [49:34] doesn't negate having WordPress. You're [49:35] still going to need all the cool stuff [49:36] that WordPress brings with you. We're [49:38] just talking about the kind of theming [49:41] layer on top of it and the editing [49:43] experience, [49:44] >> the generating the pages, right? We're [49:46] not talking about the whole ecosystem. [49:48] >> Yeah, the plug-in the plugins is a huge [49:50] strength. So, if you want e-commerce, [49:51] you can plug that in. If you want forms, [49:53] you can plug that in because that work [49:55] that intellectual property um that [49:59] intellectual work rather has been done. [50:01] All those all those plugins 60,000 [50:03] plugins. [50:04] >> Yes. that that gives WordPress a huge [50:06] leverage if um and the stuff that James [50:08] Leage and his team are building around [50:10] the abilities API can tap into lets AI [50:13] tap into that stuff. So for me I see a [50:17] future hopefully where the AI is kind of [50:20] doing the front end experience for [50:22] people. [50:22] >> Yeah. [50:23] >> I suspect in my ideal world the theming [50:26] layer comes into question what that [50:28] looks like. I'm a big fan of, you know, [50:30] kind of the headless experience that [50:31] people are starting to experiment with. [50:34] And I see the editing experience, the [50:35] editing experience was only there as an [50:37] abstraction to make it easier for [50:39] people. That's why we built editors. [50:43] And if AI does that in 10 times as [50:46] easily and 10 times as well, then you [50:50] ask the question, do we need an editor? [50:53] I had this experience when I was using [50:54] Lovable a year ago. It was a Eureka [50:56] moment for me. I was testing it and I [50:58] was building a site and I built this [50:59] very beautiful website which is actually [51:01] a headless WordPress website. Um, which [51:03] is actually Can I show it? Can I show it [51:05] quickly? Is that possible? [51:06] >> Of course. Of course. [51:07] >> Have we got time? Um, [51:09] >> yeah, we got I don't know if you have [51:10] time, but I I made a lot of time for [51:12] this. [51:13] >> Let me share this. This is [51:16] This is it. Can you see that? [51:18] >> Uh, [51:21] not yet. Wait, let me just click here [51:24] and then you click here. Yeah. Now I see [51:26] it. [51:27] >> Okay. Yeah. So this this I built a year [51:29] a year ago using Lovable and it was a [51:31] kind of a Eura moment and it's kind of [51:33] cool, right? This is so this is [51:34] headless. This is actually ingesting [51:36] content from [51:37] >> it's cool, right? From a WordPress site. [51:40] Um but this is built using Loveable. So [51:42] it's like a front-end headless version [51:44] of WordPress. Um and it's just it's just [51:46] beautiful. So you've got this little [51:48] thing here that pushes out [51:50] >> and then I've got this photo journal. [51:52] This is pulling um photos automatically [51:55] from course it's not going to load now [51:58] um automatically from my WordPress site. [52:01] There they are. Okay. So that's just [52:03] automatically coming in. And then I've [52:05] got writings here which again which are [52:07] being pulled automatically from my [52:09] WordPress site. But I and then I've got [52:11] light and dark mode. And this took me [52:13] like an hour to build. And it's I think [52:15] it's absolutely beautiful. [52:18] And that would have taken you that would [52:20] have taken a long long time. [52:23] >> Yeah. And even the design idea of this [52:25] like when most people think this is also [52:28] an people that underestimate or [52:30] overestimate their own skills. But like [52:32] I I've been a designer for a long time. [52:34] I have a design degree, had a design [52:36] agency, I've been teaching design on [52:38] YouTube for a long time. And I'm not the [52:40] best designer in the world, but I can [52:42] see that this experience, what you're [52:44] showing here, it maybe not the best [52:45] layout for for all websites. Probably [52:48] not. But it is creative. It's it is [52:51] something that is hard to come up with [52:54] by yourself. And I think we're often [52:58] over [53:00] Yeah. How do I say it? over [53:03] complicating or no over [53:06] um [53:08] how do I say this overvaluing [53:12] the the absolute core of human [53:15] creativity uh yet there's absolutely [53:18] still a point to make and and human [53:20] designers will I think always be better [53:23] than AI but only very good human [53:25] designers there are many people who are [53:29] yeah I'm saying it this a bit bluntly [53:31] But there there are many people that are [53:34] okay designers and even myself like I [53:38] think I understand design quite well but [53:40] if I see what AI can generate today I'm [53:43] like well that's getting pretty close to [53:46] my skills if I'm really honest. [53:48] >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean this was this was but [53:51] my Eureka moment was with this was one [53:54] was it didn't take long to build and it [53:55] was kind of it was a very creative [53:57] process to to kind of build with it. Um, [53:59] the second one was I got to a point [54:01] where I was like, well, I've built this [54:02] thing. Now I need a way to edit it. And [54:03] I was starting to talk to the AI saying, [54:06] I'm going to need an editor. How would [54:08] And then I suddenly thought, no, I don't [54:10] I don't need an editor. I just tell the [54:12] AI what to change. And that was like, oh [54:14] yeah, this is this is the way people are [54:17] going to want to do this stuff. They're [54:18] not going to want to build editors. Now, [54:20] they will for certain use cases, like if [54:22] you're in a big company or a news [54:24] organization, you have complex [54:25] workflows. You definitely need that. But [54:27] for a lot of the people I've taught over [54:29] the last 10 years, they're going to want [54:30] to talk to it and you know, just like [54:32] they talk to a designer, say go off and [54:33] do this thing. It just felt very very [54:35] natural from that point on. Um, [54:37] >> so yeah, I think the editing the editing [54:39] is going to we're going to my view is [54:41] we're going to have an edit AI first [54:43] editing experience or we should be [54:45] aiming for that. That's the target I [54:46] think. [54:47] >> And within that within that it's not [54:50] just going to be like if we do that [54:51] properly, it's not just going to be a [54:54] chat b a chat box. is going to be [54:56] something else. I think we're still at [54:58] the very early stages of what that [54:59] experience looks like because for some [55:00] people being faced with a with a just a [55:04] chatbot is going to be very intimidating [55:06] and they're not going to have the ideas. [55:07] So, we're going to have to there's [55:08] opportunities for people to guide [55:10] through that process or [55:11] >> you know, you might have an interface [55:13] which is yeah, [55:14] >> you've got different different agent [55:16] designers that you want to work with [55:17] that have different vibes and you choose [55:19] that one and they lead you down this [55:21] path. So, I think we're right at the [55:22] early days of this, but I do think it's [55:24] going to be an AI first experience. It's [55:26] just so joyous and collaborative and a [55:28] creative way to to work. I think [55:31] >> I completely agree with this and I'm [55:34] also seeing that edit editing panels are [55:38] becoming less relevant. Maybe addit [55:41] later. Lovable has this thing now. They [55:43] didn't have this before, but you [55:44] generate the whole thing and then you [55:46] can still click on a heading for example [55:47] and then it it gives you some options [55:49] and it already connected to the [55:50] variables that it has generated. So this [55:53] is this is like a smart way to do it. [55:55] But the the the whole drag starting with [55:58] drag and drop maybe maybe that's going [56:01] to change. Maybe there will still be [56:02] drag and drop but you do it later um if [56:05] you want to add something. But yeah, [56:07] then then I think we have to also [56:08] separate uh clients uh or DIYers from [56:12] from people like us who have experience [56:14] and can help clients because this this [56:17] process of guiding is incredibly [56:19] important but it's it's even if you have [56:21] this perfect process what what you're [56:23] describing that you you're like hey [56:24] which which agent designer do you want [56:26] to work with? That's a very cool idea [56:28] right and like oh I like this style more [56:30] and this is my and and then the agent's [56:33] going to ask you about your business [56:34] problems etc. But this all requires [56:37] humans to to describe stuff about their [56:41] own business. And if we know one thing [56:43] about humans which has nothing to do [56:46] with technology is is that we find it [56:49] hard to look at ourselves describe [56:51] ourselves especially describes our our [56:54] pain and problems and we cannot always [56:56] come up with [56:58] >> Yeah. [56:58] >> Yeah. with with a way to to to describe [57:01] it. I mean talking is a communication is [57:04] a skill as well. Um and and yeah getting [57:07] that out on in that chatbot or whatever. [57:10] So I think there there's still huge [57:12] opportunity there for agency work. I [57:14] don't see a future where we're not going [57:16] to we're not going to be able to help [57:19] clients with it. But I do see that the [57:21] amount of hours that we can charge for [57:24] manually building and designing a page, [57:27] I think that's going to take the biggest [57:29] hits. [57:30] >> Yeah. But there's also lots of new [57:32] opportunities, right? We can create web [57:34] apps like like this is this is huge, [57:36] right? You can connect your WordPress [57:39] forums for example to a custom CRM that [57:42] you build for your clients. It's like [57:45] there's so much new opportunity as well. [57:47] Like do you also see that and how do you [57:50] see WordPress being connected in that [57:52] story? because it sounds kind of nice if [57:54] you can let's say you start in lovable [57:57] you create your website in lovable and [57:59] you also generate a web app that's [58:00] completely connected into the same [58:02] database. So this is also a a [58:04] conversation I think or a question that [58:06] many people have right now and that's [58:08] what I want your opinion on like where [58:11] in this world or for what type of [58:13] websites would make WordPress uh sense [58:17] if we can also just connect the database [58:19] easily with a with a tool like lovable. [58:22] How do you see that? [58:24] >> Well, I think there I mean the first [58:25] thing is there's always been like uh [58:27] competing products to WordPress. That's [58:29] not new, right? [58:30] >> Um [58:32] >> and I think WordPress's challenge is to [58:33] become as easy to use as um lovable and [58:38] of course it's open source which is a [58:40] huge advantage because [58:43] you can talk to it very very easily and [58:46] it's free. That's another huge [58:48] advantage. So you can build stuff, you [58:49] know, that's that's not to be [58:51] discounted. It's free and it's open [58:53] source and you can change it and mold it [58:55] to your will. So, um, [58:58] I I'm I'm very, you know, given what's [59:00] happened over the last 3 months, I'm I'm [59:02] probably obviously everyone has [59:04] existential moments around where we're [59:06] at, but I'm probably the most buoyant [59:07] I've been around what's possible with [59:10] WordPress than I've been uh for a long [59:12] time because the stuff you can create [59:14] with it is is getting to the point where [59:16] it's really really awesome comparable to [59:18] VI coding tools. Um, so I'm not sure [59:22] I've answered your question at all, [59:24] Reena. Um, but I think there are I think [59:27] I just think there's big opportunities [59:28] for like agencies and freelancers around [59:32] using WordPress as like the central [59:34] source of truth for a lot of uh kind of [59:37] where people live on the web, whatever [59:39] that's going to look like the next few [59:40] years. [59:41] >> Yeah. So, okay. So for how I see it is [59:44] like be beginner websites like I think [59:49] there are probably millions of uh [59:52] WordPress websites which are just [59:54] brochure websites. They have a simple [59:56] hosting plan. Maybe an agency build it [59:59] for them. The these one of these [60:00] agencies that generate a lot of websites [60:03] really fast or they did something [60:04] themselves with a template etc. Um and [60:07] it's just a simple website. there's [60:09] maybe a form plugin and and and whatever [60:12] and these kinds of website if they need [60:14] to be rebuilt I think that makes more [60:16] sense if there's no database to just v [60:20] code it but yeah then again there will [60:21] be many people who would just who will [60:24] just for the reason that their form [60:25] plug-in already has submissions there [60:27] they would just be like okay if we can [60:29] also use AI here then why would we turn [60:31] to another platform like like uh lovable [60:35] um [60:35] >> yeah why would why why would you why [60:37] would you rip out the plumbing of your [60:38] Sure, if the AI if you can point an AI [60:41] at your existing WordPress site which is [60:43] outdated and slow and plugins need [60:46] updating and you can say go off and [60:47] improve it and make it 10 times better. [60:49] Why would you rip all that out [60:51] for um you know my wife runs a yoga [60:54] studio which is running a a WordPress [60:55] site? There's no way we're going to [60:57] there's no way we're going to do that. [60:58] That that site has so much it would take [61:00] so much effort to migrate that site off [61:02] WordPress. So [61:03] >> yeah, [61:04] >> there is 43% of the web running [61:07] WordPress. Lots of websites could do [61:10] with updating and lots of those [61:12] businesses that are running those [61:13] websites could do with automating or [61:15] adding value or being better. [61:19] >> Yeah. [61:19] >> I you know that's that's that in itself [61:22] is a is a massive opportunity for [61:24] agencies to revisit those sites and say [61:26] look we've got this package. we can [61:28] improve your site and get you more [61:29] business and [61:30] >> and we can build apps on top of it and [61:32] so [61:34] >> yeah and I think also with agencies [61:36] speed uh is not always what you want to [61:40] achieve like just the let's say that [61:43] that companies like lovable get to a [61:46] point where is it is just a lot easier [61:48] to work with I mean that's probably [61:50] what's going to happen right because [61:51] there is also a heaviness that comes [61:53] with WordPress there's plug-in updates [61:55] that you have to do there can be uh [61:58] problems. Uh there's there's bloat. I [62:01] mean, if you use a a page builder, it's [62:04] it's more than of course Gutenberg is is [62:06] optimized very much. But there there is [62:09] there is a heaviness that comes with [62:10] WordPress and um at least that's my [62:13] view. Um and so there we I think we will [62:16] get to a time where where these other [62:18] platforms they they will not have that [62:20] heaviness. Um but then again uh agencies [62:24] do not always care about speed and super [62:26] ease of use. they want a proper [62:28] solution, right? Um, and so because they [62:31] want to have a good system for for their [62:34] clients and so I don't I also don't see [62:36] that agencies are always going to choose [62:39] the easiest option. Maybe the agencies [62:40] that just want to move really fast and [62:42] want to make a lot of websites like [62:44] those agencies will probably do it, but [62:46] the bigger agencies they they want to [62:49] have granular control. And that's why I [62:51] think page builders, I don't know how [62:53] you how you see that, but like page [62:55] builders, they provide that. And so they [62:59] want to have access. They want to be [63:01] able to make some changes to the code or [63:03] or make an custom plugin or Yeah, they [63:06] they they want that. the value is is not [63:09] speed and ease of use is not always the [63:11] option that agencies use, but for [63:14] millions of websites that are simple, I [63:17] think that's going to be hard to keep [63:19] these people on the platform. That's how [63:22] I see it. [63:24] >> Yeah, maybe. I think that I do think [63:26] there's an opportunity like [63:27] WordPress.com has its own AI builder and [63:29] drives a lot of traffic to that site [63:32] >> and WordPress has and it and WordPress [63:35] has you know it has brand and [63:37] distribution and a massive ecosystem. [63:41] So I think if WordPress wants to do it [63:43] and we execute it properly like there's [63:46] no reason why the experience of building [63:47] a site with these models shouldn't be as [63:50] joyous as using lovable and it's getting [63:52] to the point [63:54] >> sorry [63:55] >> yes so can we c can do you think we can [63:57] get to the point where you can literally [63:59] go to the website let's say [64:00] wordpress.com and you start with a prom [64:03] box and then the moment you do that it [64:04] spins up a sandbox and then it just [64:06] generates the whole thing and from there [64:08] on you can then decide hey host it there [64:10] because I that the the threshold right [64:13] now or the the roadblock is oh you have [64:15] to pick a hosting company first and then [64:18] what hosting company and then what [64:20] hosting package and then you have to [64:22] install and I think that that all of [64:24] those steps that is creating a lot of [64:26] friction for to get started but yeah I [64:30] think that if you can start with a promp [64:32] box but I don't know if that's possible [64:33] within WordPress [64:34] >> well we have we have it we have it now [64:36] wordpress.com so you can go you can you [64:38] can go to wordpress.com today we have an [64:39] AI builder [64:41] and you can do exactly that experience. [64:43] Now, at the moment, it's not as sleek as [64:46] using [64:48] level um but a huge amount of work going [64:54] >> Yeah. [64:58] >> Oh, so you're saying already here? [65:01] >> It's already here and you and you can [65:03] see other hosting companies are [65:04] approaching this as well. Um, so this [65:07] stuff this stuff has started to emerge [65:09] over the last, you know, six months. [65:12] >> Yeah. [65:12] >> And my point earlier was we are now [65:14] getting to the point and you saw in the [65:16] TX demo, we're getting to the point very [65:18] soon where the experience should be, my [65:22] hope is as comparable to these five [65:26] coding tools in terms of, you know, the [65:28] WordPress experience. [65:29] >> Yeah. So, [65:31] >> it's not loading, but uh [65:33] >> and then you don't have to wor you don't [65:34] have to worry about hosting in that [65:35] whole experience. You don't have to set [65:36] up servers. You just go through that, [65:38] build your site and you click launch and [65:40] it'd be kind of there. [65:41] >> That would be very good for [65:42] WordPress.com hosting, you know. [65:45] >> Yeah. Well, we built we built it and [65:47] it's kind of, you know, a lot of work's [65:48] going into it. [65:49] >> Um, and that's, you know, obviously that [65:53] that lowers friction enormously and [65:55] other hosts are doing it. So you can go [65:57] and check out other hosts have got their [65:58] own versions of this as well. [66:00] >> Yeah. [66:00] >> Um [66:01] >> so yeah [66:03] >> but um how do you see the or what do you [66:07] think makes WordPress [66:10] strong like what is the what are the [66:12] most valuable things [66:15] um apart from the plugins? [66:21] Well, we have we have 20 years of [66:23] history. I think I mean we have a huge [66:25] ecosystem and people around the world [66:27] and 43 I mean 43% of the web. I think [66:30] the risk on all these things is we look [66:31] at them purely from a technology point [66:32] of view and go well this can do this and [66:34] this can do this and it's like that's [66:35] always been the case. There's always [66:36] been tools that people have gone you [66:38] know when I first introduced WordPress [66:40] into my one of the businesses I ran. We [66:43] were using a CMS called which some of [66:45] you would have heard of which is a .NET [66:47] CMS commercial and my developers were [66:51] all net developers and they hated PHP [66:54] and they hated WordPress and they they [66:56] couldn't and they were always saying [66:58] this this technology is much much better [67:00] and that argument's always been made [67:01] that the technology WordPress doesn't [67:03] you know the stack doesn't compete and [67:05] people always complain about the stack. [67:07] What WordPress has really, you know, [67:09] grown from is the ecosystem of people [67:11] building with open source. That's kind [67:13] of and that's that hasn't changed. In my [67:15] view, that is like [67:17] the potential of that is even stronger [67:20] with AI because it's kind of [67:21] democratized that people are going to be [67:23] able to mold this tool now without [67:26] having to go through complex [67:29] learning. They can actually just talk to [67:31] AI and the AI will start to build them [67:32] these sites. So for me that's kind of [67:35] like that's why it probably you know you [67:39] can't you can't do some of the stuff [67:40] we're demoing today with Wix in terms of [67:44] you know because it's not open source [67:46] and it's it's a closed platform. [67:48] >> Um so and you can't you know I can't [67:51] control what will do at the end of the [67:53] day. I might go up tomorrow and they've [67:55] changed their model and I'm completely [67:56] stuffed. [67:57] >> So there's some there's some business [67:59] risk around using these tools as well. [68:01] So I think WordPress is [68:04] is has historically been behind, but I [68:07] think that's that's natural for a piece [68:09] of software that's been 20 years, but [68:12] there's a there's a kind of [68:14] consolidation of models, improving AI, [68:17] the stuff James Lee and his team are [68:19] doing, they're kind of coalesing into [68:21] this moment where we're getting to the [68:22] point where it's like getting, you know, [68:24] incredibly exciting to start building [68:26] with WordPress again. like the stuff [68:28] we've been sharing on Twitter. Yeah. [68:29] >> And stuff privately, it's like, wow, [68:31] that's that's incredible. So, [68:33] >> yeah. [68:33] >> Yeah. [68:35] >> Yeah. I I um I I agree. I'm just I'm [68:38] just I'm just challenging the idea a [68:40] little bit. That's of course my role [68:42] here in this in this um live stream. I [68:45] am uh I also uh see the well there's of [68:50] course this is the the these are the [68:53] questions I think we should ask right [68:55] now. And I think it also makes us sharp, [68:57] right? In the same way as as what you [68:59] said on Twitter, are we asking the right [69:01] questions? Because WordPress should take [69:03] this very seriously. But listening to [69:05] you, it sounds like they really are. [69:07] They're not just defending the past. [69:08] They're saying like, hey, we completely [69:11] believe in AI. We're not just saying [69:13] like, oh, we're sticking to the old. No, [69:15] we're going all in on it because we we [69:18] understand. And I think the power of [69:20] WordPress is that the vision has always [69:21] been very strong which is which is well [69:25] first it was democratizing publishing [69:27] and now they've expanded it to [69:29] democratizing [69:31] publishing or the web. I don't know [69:33] exactly what the quote is right now but [69:35] I think that's that's what it is right [69:37] democratizing the web creation. [69:41] >> Yeah. [69:42] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think [69:44] >> the other the other thing to see say [69:46] here um is nobody knows, right? This is [69:49] a this is this is a moment of I mean the [69:52] the other great thing that WordPress has [69:53] got going for it actually is that we are [69:55] in a moment of huge disruption and [69:58] because of the way WordPress is set up [70:01] which annoys lots of people because it [70:03] feels kind of chaotic [70:06] but because of that because we're [70:08] actually weirdly kind of really agile [70:12] because somebody can come up with an [70:14] idea over here and it can be plugged [70:16] into WordPress. It's not like there's [70:18] not just one person going we're going [70:20] here and actually at this moment of [70:23] craziness and massive dis disruption. [70:26] >> Having that as a kind of [70:28] >> foundation culture in our DNA is [70:30] actually it feels like a weakness [70:32] because some people are going no it must [70:34] do this it must have this but actually [70:36] having that flexibility we might look [70:38] back and go that was actually its its [70:41] main strength. It was kind of set up to [70:43] be organic and slightly chaotic. Like if [70:46] you're like if you're trying to create [70:47] an organization right now, that's [70:49] difficult, right? How do you create an [70:50] organiza if you've got like a thousand [70:52] people working for you, how do you [70:53] create an organization that's dealing [70:55] with the the the the wave that AI is [70:57] coming? And probably one of the things [70:59] you want to think about is how do we [71:01] make ourselves as agile as possible so [71:03] we can adapt as quickly as possible. And [71:05] WordPress WordPress WordPress feels [71:07] slow, but it's kind of open, right? So [71:10] if you if you have an idea and you want [71:12] to do it, you you you can kind of do it. [71:14] So, it's an interesting it's an [71:16] interesting conundrum. [71:18] >> That's a that's that's a very good [71:20] point. I that's the best point I've [71:22] heard so far as as in a defense on on [71:24] WordPress because exactly we don't we [71:27] don't know exactly what's going to [71:29] happen and you need to absolutely be [71:32] agile in this time. Like I'm also doing [71:34] that with my content. I'm not just [71:36] saying like okay this is where where [71:37] things are going. I'm I'm dipping my [71:40] toes into into VIP coding, but I'm also [71:43] still uh uh doing Elementor stuff and [71:46] and I don't know, maybe Elementor AI [71:48] will be super good, right? Maybe maybe [71:50] Gutenberg AI or whatever. And like we we [71:53] we have no idea. Um but we do know that [71:57] the workflow of prompting is superior [71:59] but that cannot do everything. Uh [72:02] because I think also another strength is [72:04] that the the [72:07] um the available options for you to [72:10] explore. So if you are vibe coding you [72:14] have to ask everything. So um in a in a [72:19] let's say SEO, right? You you you want [72:21] an SEO uh optimized website, you can [72:24] vibe code, but what does what does how [72:28] can you be an effective vibe coder and [72:30] create good SEO? You can only do that if [72:33] you know what is possible. And how did [72:36] these people learn that? Well, probably [72:38] through a WordPress plug-in or or some [72:41] something else. And so this this [72:43] exploration that you just install a [72:45] plugin and you're like, "Oh shit." [72:49] Okay. Yeah, that was my camera again. [72:51] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Sometimes my iPhone [72:53] does a weird thing. But this this [72:55] exploration thing, you just install a [72:56] plugin and you're like, "Oh, wait. What [72:58] is this? A schema? Oh, let me just go on [73:01] YouTube or go to chat and ask what a [73:05] schema is." and then um um it's you [73:10] discover something new. But that's a big [73:13] downside of of of a chat, it's that it's [73:16] empty. It's an empty box. And so you [73:17] need a really good plan. And I think [73:20] WordPress is it's just a it's just a [73:22] playground basically. You just, oh, I [73:24] can do this. Oh, I can activate this [73:26] plug-in. Oh, delete it. And like, oh, [73:27] and this or what about this? And what [73:29] about this? And like you learn through [73:31] playing with this platform. [73:33] >> Yeah. [73:34] WordPress has always been really good at [73:36] kind of [73:38] giving people the space to disagree and [73:41] come up with their own ideas and if they [73:43] produce something that's like amazing, [73:44] it'll get brought into core, right? [73:47] >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's a [73:49] collaborative thing. [73:51] >> Yeah. Exactly. So, I think that Yeah. [73:52] That's that's a big strength. We got [73:54] some questions. [73:55] >> Yeah. Let's Okay, let's we're we're one [73:57] hour in now, so let's do answer some [73:59] questions and then we're going to we're [74:01] going to end it. Um, I'm just going to [74:04] pull some stuff up. So, now is the [74:05] moment, guys. If you're watching live, [74:06] you have a question or you just want to [74:08] share your view on it. Uh, drop it in [74:12] the chat. Drop it again. Even if you [74:13] have already dropped it, I'm not going [74:15] to scroll back all the way. I'm just [74:16] going to choose. [74:19] Okay. What about now? Yes, exactly. Now [74:21] is the moment to place your comment. [74:24] Uh, let's see what Dennis is saying. [74:26] Dennis uh is uh is is always here. Like [74:29] I say before in other streams, WordPress [74:31] need to shift to another way of seeing [74:34] how people use WordPress is still block. [74:35] Yeah, that's an interesting point. Like [74:37] do you also think that WordPress still [74:38] holds on to this blog thing too much? [74:41] Like the default installation is still [74:44] blocked and comments and almost nobody [74:46] uses comments like how do you see that? [74:49] >> Well, I see a lot of the sites again we [74:51] tend to see WordPress as in what are [74:55] there's two discussions here, right? One [74:56] is the kind of onboarding experience. So [74:58] I think that's a valid point. The second [75:00] is I see a lot of sites that big [75:02] publishers are using with WordPress who [75:04] are definitely not using it as a blog [75:05] CMS. They're using it massive newspaper [75:08] publications for very complex workflows [75:10] like News International [75:12] doing some amazing stuff with um [75:14] Gutenberg. So yeah, agree agree on the [75:16] onboarding. I think that's definitely [75:18] blog centric and I think that could be [75:20] changed. Um, but there are some I mean [75:24] lots of enterprises are using WordPress [75:25] for incredibly complex workflows which [75:27] we probably should try and highlight [75:29] more. Um, yeah. [75:32] >> Yeah. But but I think for the for the [75:34] default, right, if you want to keep new [75:37] people to the to the if you want to [75:40] attract new people to the platform, it's [75:42] it's it just feels a little bit weird [75:44] that you're always presented with a blog [75:46] instead of that that's an option. You [75:48] know that's I think the strength of [75:49] WordPress is that it is a good CMS but [75:53] like there's no custom post type [75:55] builder. You have to install a plugin. [75:57] You have to know which one it is. [75:59] >> Yeah. But I don't most people won't be [76:02] using custom post types honestly [76:04] >> really [76:04] >> in WordPress. I know and your audience [76:06] will be but I bet you all the money in [76:10] my bank account that most people will [76:12] not be using custom post types. an an an [76:14] agency ccentric market will be but the [76:17] average person will not be using custom [76:19] post types in WordPress. So again we we [76:21] come back to what should go in core what [76:23] shouldn't go in core and there that's a [76:25] fine debate but also I don't see the [76:27] onboarding experience as being the [76:28] onboarding experience shouldn't be the [76:30] onboarding experience in a year's time [76:31] right it should be it should be an AI [76:34] onboarding experience which is [76:35] completely separate to what we're [76:37] talking about here so [76:39] >> we can spend our time rebuilding the [76:41] bridge or we can we can build an [76:43] airplane and I think we should build the [76:45] airplane to get across rather bridge I [76:49] don't see that how people I don't see [76:51] how that's people are going to be [76:52] interact I hope that's not how people [76:54] are going to you know interacting in [76:56] WordPress in a year two years time I [76:57] think we can do better [76:59] >> okay another one um WordPress key [77:02] feature is open source big history and a [77:03] lot of devs who understand the [77:05] architecture the biggest struggle in my [77:06] eyes is the gap between old school devs [77:08] and new age kids yeah how are how [77:11] because I think even Matt talked about [77:12] that like how are we going to attract [77:14] the new the new cool kids and how we're [77:16] going to keep them on the platform [77:19] >> I think I I think first product the [77:21] product has to be like so people like [77:23] you can create get excited about [77:26] creating content around WordPress like [77:29] the same excitement you're like I sense [77:31] it with you that you're creating with [77:32] your vibe coding videos I sense that [77:35] product has to be there and then it's [77:36] like how do we get the and then content [77:38] is a big part of that as well but I [77:40] think honestly the product is the [77:41] product has to be as exciting for um to [77:46] use as as some of these vibe coding [77:48] tools Like you see a lot of the lovable [77:50] stuff they're going to schools and [77:51] they're just they're doing like [77:52] hackathons with kids where they're [77:54] building apps. Do you know what I mean? [77:56] That's like [77:58] >> that's that's where we need to be. But [78:00] that comes from we can and there's [78:02] there's great initiatives to do stuff in [78:03] universities, [78:06] but I would love to be able to, you [78:08] know, have a product that was so that [78:10] easy to use that we could we could do [78:12] stuff like that. Um and we can do stuff [78:14] like that, but it needs a lot of [78:15] handholding at the moment. [78:17] So, so my Okay, my personal question is [78:20] why has it taken I'm saying this a bit [78:23] bluntly but I think [78:26] yeah I think I can I can say that why [78:28] has it taken 15 years to redesign the [78:31] interface and it's it's they have [78:33] announced it like more than two years [78:35] ago and it is not a question to you like [78:37] that you should justify the the company [78:39] decisions but I'm just like if we want [78:42] to attract the cool kids or and keep [78:44] them on there and attract them is it not [78:46] incredibly important that this part [78:48] finally gets updated. [78:53] >> Probably not. I mean, that's my this is [78:56] my this is my personal view. I don't [78:57] think a refresh on honestly I don't [79:00] think an admin I've never had a client [79:02] complaint I know a lot of people are [79:03] very passionate about the admin [79:04] interface. So, I'm probably gonna start [79:06] a fire here. I've never [79:07] >> really passionate about it. [79:08] >> I've never had a client in all my years [79:10] complain to me about the admin [79:12] interface. I don't think that's what's [79:13] going to that would not be my f. It's [79:16] definitely can be improved. I'm not I'm [79:17] not saying you can't [79:19] >> but I don't think that's where I would [79:20] start. I would start on the front end [79:22] and say make that experience beautiful. [79:25] >> Okay. I I respectfully fully disagree [79:28] because the the [79:31] um [79:32] >> and it is getting a refresh. It's [79:34] getting a refresh. [79:35] >> I know. I know. But I've been I've been [79:37] I hope it is before my pension uh [79:39] starts. Sorry. been waiting so long. [79:44] >> We can make the most beautiful admin [79:45] interface in the world and it's not [79:47] going to shift the dial in terms of new [79:49] users. [79:49] >> It it kind of is because Okay, so I I [79:52] have [79:53] >> I really I really don't want to spend [79:55] five minutes talking about the admin [79:56] interface. [79:58] >> Oh, okay. Go. I just want to say one [80:00] thing that that I got from from my my my [80:05] um design degree like there is lots of [80:10] things that design um influences in an [80:15] indirect way. This is also why boring uh [80:19] repeating advertising still works [80:22] because it's it's in it's in the back of [80:24] our head. it doesn't register it uh uh [80:27] on the on the on the prefrontal cortex [80:30] on on the rational level. It just [80:32] happens in the background and we and I [80:34] so your argument that people or your [80:37] clients will not complain about the the [80:39] interface. I don't think they ever will, [80:41] but it's a feeling of like is this a [80:45] platform that is actually taking the [80:48] future seriously. And so yes, you can [80:50] have you can build the most amazing [80:52] prompt box and and but if people log in [80:54] and they feel like this is still the [80:57] same stuff as it was in 2010, then it's [80:59] very hard to convince them that the [81:02] whole workflow is actually super modern. [81:04] So I think you're making it very hard [81:05] for yourself [81:07] uh as as WordPress as a company to not [81:09] have to not just fix that small thing [81:11] basically because it's not a huge thing. [81:13] I'm I'm I'm nothing to do with the admin [81:15] interface, so I'm not I'm not [81:17] >> I know I I um [81:20] >> I don't mind it. I mean, I'm I'm not a [81:22] I'm not a uh from an aesthetic, I know [81:24] people are going to jump on me here. I [81:25] don't mind the end admin interface. It's [81:27] never offended me. I'm kind of like, [81:29] yeah, makes sense. Stuff is where I want [81:30] it to be. [81:33] >> Not about it. [81:35] >> I'm being honest. I've never thought of [81:36] the admin interface, oh, I'd really like [81:38] it to do this. I've just never had that [81:40] >> that experience. I would I would I would [81:42] I would love the front end to be a [81:43] beautiful experience for people. And so [81:45] question for you if you if you had a [81:46] choice A or B, you can work on the admin [81:49] interface or you can create a beautiful [81:50] front-end experience for users. Where do [81:52] you where do you spend your time? Reena, [81:54] >> I Okay, if I if if I would run WordPress [81:58] right now, that would be the first thing [81:59] I'd tackle because it's just a branding [82:01] thing and I think WordPress has a [82:02] branding issue and that's what that's [82:04] the first thing that I would tackle. Of [82:05] course, like I would absolutely invest [82:07] in AI and make sure that that front end [82:09] experience is good. But like I think [82:11] this is one of these things that has [82:12] been so long on the on the to-do list um [82:16] and and being like on the do that I [82:19] would just quickly knock it out. Like [82:21] that's what I would do. [82:22] >> Well, here's what I would do because [82:24] obviously you can you can do that with [82:26] WordPress. It's open source. So what I [82:27] would do is create a beautiful piece of [82:29] video with your new interface design. [82:32] >> Get loads of people to start shouting [82:33] about it. a bit like Mike McCullis's and [82:35] some of his work which has now gone into [82:37] core and you get you get a point and go [82:39] this is what it should be like I mean [82:40] that's I mean it sounds a bit clear but [82:41] that is the opportunity in WordPress you [82:43] can actually go and [82:44] >> you can go and get involved and say this [82:46] we need this and [82:47] >> okay so lessing more doing [82:51] >> well yeah maybe [82:53] >> that's okay [82:54] >> I don't think I don't think like I did [82:55] this video with Brian Cords last year [82:57] which was how to fix Gutenberg where we [82:59] we were very polite actually it was [83:00] before I joined automatic but we were [83:01] very polite and we pointed out a lot of [83:03] the issues um [83:05] >> that it had. And actually I did I I did [83:07] this series of videos with my daughters [83:08] where I give them tasks to do and um [83:12] they were trying to accomplish them and [83:13] I got feedback this was before I joined [83:15] automatic that people in automatic and [83:17] then in WordPress had watched those [83:19] videos and had taken action on them [83:22] because of how they saw my daughters [83:24] struggling with some aspects of [83:26] Gutenberg. So you can, you know, which [83:28] is a beautiful thought. My daughters [83:30] were having impact on software that's [83:31] running [83:32] >> 43% of the web. So you do have agency [83:35] with your 267,000 [83:37] subscribers to have [83:38] >> impact. [83:39] >> Well, thank you. And I I know like I've [83:42] mainly my efforts has been in Elementor. [83:44] I've I I have been and also with other [83:46] products. I've influenced things in the [83:47] background that people don't even know. [83:49] Just I send videos to companies and [83:51] sometimes that has an effect. So I I do [83:54] understand the impact of of my work. [83:55] Even though we we um uh even if the [84:00] video only gets a few thousand views, it [84:02] only has to see one you only have to to [84:05] put a seat in one person's mind, which [84:07] is important enough and you know change [84:09] can happen. So okay. [84:11] >> Yeah. Dennis is saying waha Jamie good [84:14] call. I think he agrees with me that um [84:19] you're wrong and I'm probably right on [84:20] that [84:22] >> about the interface. You mean [84:24] >> Dennis? I think just give a thumbs up. [84:27] >> Dennis. Okay, we'll see. We'll see. [84:29] Let's Let's not Let's move on from the [84:31] from the from the interface. We We're [84:33] having a super chat. Somebody Somebody [84:35] paid something. That's nice. P What is [84:37] that? P 50. What is that? 50 P. What [84:41] what country are you are you doing that [84:43] from? That's very nice. It looks like [84:45] super chat. I think we got a little [84:47] donation for uh for our discussion. [84:50] >> That's Bitcoin, I think. [84:52] >> Oh, maybe it's Bitcoin. That would be 50 [84:54] Bitcoin. That's a pretty good donation. [84:56] >> Right. We're off. It's retired. [84:59] >> Okay. Um [85:01] >> Dennis. Dennis. Dennis confirmed. [85:04] >> Dennis confirmed it. [85:06] >> Yeah. [85:07] >> Okay. Okay. Dennis. Okay. Maybe. Maybe [85:11] well you know like you said what I can [85:13] do if if I really want the interface to [85:15] change I can I can do um I can give some [85:18] ideas and I've I've complained before [85:21] about it but yeah you're not the first [85:23] one who said who who tell me this that I [85:25] I with my channel I can influence [85:29] something but it WordPress always feels [85:30] like this big [85:32] monster that cannot be influenced easily [85:35] because if you're you know you know our [85:38] position we get approached by every [85:40] single whole company inside of [85:41] WordPress. Uh like I I oh my god, [85:45] >> my my my email inbox right now, I [85:47] haven't because I'm so busy with with [85:49] all of the content right now. I haven't [85:50] checked my my collaborations email for [85:53] three weeks. It's on 60 emails right [85:55] now. I don't even want to get started. [85:57] >> Well, that's that's another that's [85:59] another interesting Now, I've since I [86:00] joined Automatic, I'm not doing any [86:02] sponsored video content. I had a few [86:04] leftovers to run. [86:06] >> Um but I would say that I you've already [86:08] seen the shift too, right? 90% of the [86:11] emails I get for sponsorships are AI [86:14] companies, not WordPress companies at [86:16] all now. [86:16] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [86:17] >> Like it's [86:18] >> and some of some of the money they're [86:19] talking about is absurd as well. Like [86:22] it's just crazy [86:23] >> the amount of money swilling around. [86:25] >> Oh, of course. I I I sometimes I mean [86:28] people don't really like it when there's [86:30] too much sponsored content, but they [86:31] don't see the the 99% of sponsors we we [86:34] reject before we accept one, you know. [86:36] So, um, yeah, but what I wanted to say [86:39] is that the Wait, why did I want to say [86:42] that about the the collaborations? [86:46] Ah, I forgot my point. I forgot my [86:49] point. Let's go back to the to the chat. [86:51] Such a great chat. Thank you, Lana. Lana [86:53] from Croco Block. [86:55] >> I've got to go in about three minutes, [86:56] Reena. Okay, so [86:57] >> all right. Sure, sure. Sure. You uh [86:59] Dennis uh doubles down. You can't work [87:02] on everything. You're right. The admin [87:03] is still the same, but the experience [87:05] feels out there. Yeah. Okay. It just [87:06] feels outdated, you know. [87:08] >> One uh I think [87:10] >> yeah, [87:11] >> if you go and install the view [87:12] transitions plugin, which I think might [87:13] be coming to WordPress 7 that it it [87:15] feels beautifully buttery smooth. View [87:17] transitions. It's a free plugin. [87:19] >> Uh which um yeah, it just makes the [87:23] whole it's it's not going to solve all [87:25] your problems, but it does make it feel [87:26] a bit smoother. [87:27] >> Yeah, I've tested that one. It's it's [87:29] very nice. It's it makes it uh a lot [87:32] smoother. Yeah, but you know this this [87:33] discussion was mainly about about [87:34] WordPress. It was just like this thing [87:36] about the interface. Many people have [87:38] strong feelings about it. So, [87:40] >> yeah. Okay. Uh Jamie, I uh I want to [87:45] thank you a lot. I could I could talk an [87:46] hour or more with you and I I'm sure we [87:49] will have a good conversation on Word [87:52] Camp. If there are people here watching [87:54] right now that are also coming to Word [87:55] Camp, then feel free to walk up to us [87:58] and please don't just [88:00] >> Yeah. Yeah. [88:01] >> Can I do a quick a quick plug for Word [88:02] Camp? So, [88:04] >> of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [88:05] >> Yeah. So, um Word Camp Asia in Mumbai [88:08] next in April. Uh we're doing a speed [88:10] build um which is a live build where [88:12] we've got two players on stage building [88:14] a site. Um uh it's coming to Mumbai [88:17] which is incredibly exciting. So, if [88:18] you're in Mumbai, come and say hello. [88:20] But also come and watch that one because [88:21] it's it's kind of traumatic for me [88:24] because I'm trying to run it but it's [88:25] also a lot of fun and jeopardy. So, come [88:27] and say hello. There you go. [88:31] And of course, let's also give a give a [88:34] u well the link to his channel is in the [88:36] in the YouTube description. Um I yeah, I [88:39] would advise if you're on Twitter to [88:41] follow him there. Uh let me just quickly [88:43] share that on the screen. [88:47] So this is uh Jamie's Twitter, Press. [88:50] That's your name. That's your name, [88:51] right? [88:52] >> Well, yeah, that's my old company name, [88:53] which is um still my you can't change [88:55] Twitter name. So that's Yeah. Poodle [88:57] Press. [88:58] >> Okay. Okay. And on YouTube it is uh also [89:01] PL press. [89:03] >> No, it's JamieWP. [89:05] >> Oh, JamieWP. [89:08] There we go. So, if you want to get to [89:10] his channel and uh where can they reach [89:13] you if they want or is that just like uh [89:16] not not really what you want to share? [89:20] >> Yeah, just uh DM me on probably X is [89:23] probably the best place. Just message me [89:24] on X and that's probably the best place [89:26] at the moment. [89:26] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. [89:28] Okay. [89:29] >> All right, Jamie. [89:32] >> Thanks so much. [89:33] >> Thanks everyone. [89:35] >> Yeah, thank you everyone. This was uh [89:36] this was great and uh we'll um probably [89:40] have [89:42] >> Sorry, I am on LinkedIn. Message find me [89:43] on LinkedIn as well. So, [89:46] >> I'm actually more active on LinkedIn, [89:47] which is it's kind of [89:49] >> it's LinkedIn I'm finding much more [89:51] useful these days than I used to. So, [89:52] I'm on LinkedIn. Just probably search [89:54] for my name, Jamie Marson, and you'll [89:56] find me on Yeah. [89:58] Sorry. [89:59] >> All right. No, [90:02] I'm I'm so happy that that you that you [90:03] decided to spend one and a half hours uh [90:05] with me on this and thank you again and [90:08] people in the comments are also uh very [90:10] happy that that you were here. Thank you [90:12] both for this talk. See you there Jamie. [90:14] Okay, people are coming to work camp. So [90:16] that is uh that is very cool. Uh which [90:20] work camp? Yeah, the one in Asia in [90:22] Mumbai in a month from now, a month or [90:24] two. [90:27] the 8th or 9th. It's April the 9th, I [90:29] think. [90:29] >> Yeah, I will show it. You have to go [90:30] now. I will I will give a little bit [90:32] more context about that and then we'll [90:33] just end the stream after that. So, [90:35] thank you, Jamie. [90:36] >> And we'll speak. [90:38] >> Cheers. Bye. Bye. [90:41] >> That [90:44] was the discussion. What did you guys [90:46] think? I haven't checked all the [90:48] comments, but I'm going to do that right [90:50] now. And I'm also going to just quickly [90:52] pull up that work camp event we're going [90:54] to. So, Word Camp Asia. [90:59] Oh, wait. This one. Oh, this one. [91:02] This is the event. It's It's the biggest [91:05] WordPress event. The Asia edition is [91:08] always very big. The Europe one as well. [91:10] I'm not sure yet if I'm going to go to [91:12] the world or from to the Europe one as [91:15] well. But, uh, yeah, Jamie and I are [91:17] both going to be going to be here. I [91:19] think it was a very interesting [91:21] discussion, guys. What do you think? [91:22] like it's it's you know it's so good to [91:24] have these discussions because it's it's [91:28] if you're only in your own head you you [91:30] you're in an echo chamber and it's it's [91:32] interesting to see the chat some people [91:34] I see Lex Lex agree with me on the [91:36] interface [91:38] um and and Dennis doesn't [91:42] so um yeah there's different people [91:45] different perspective and that's how we [91:46] learned from each other and I just want [91:48] to say one more thing before we before [91:50] we end and that's [91:51] I and I I'm guilty of this as well, but [91:54] I I think our mind we always want to [91:56] think in black and white, right? We want [91:58] to see like, okay, is WordPress gonna is [92:00] WordPress going to die? You know, is [92:02] this page builder going to die? And the [92:04] truth is probably that [92:08] we're going to have a whole bunch of [92:09] different tools existing next to each [92:11] other. And there's there's probably [92:13] going to be even more workflows than [92:17] than what we have today, right? Because [92:19] until two years ago, the only discussion [92:21] we had was um uh well the first [92:25] discussion is are you going to handwrite [92:26] code or page builder? But most people [92:28] have realized that page builders are are [92:29] more efficient so and and a nicer [92:32] experience. So but then within page [92:34] builders you can choose a whole bunch of [92:36] things right inside and outside of [92:40] WordPress. But now the discussion is com [92:42] is much wider. It's it's are we gonna uh [92:47] do the old page builder just doing [92:49] everything manually because we don't [92:51] like AI that's also of course still an [92:53] option. Then uh are we going to [92:55] integrate AI into that builder? Then uh [92:58] maybe just use the AI tools that they [93:00] provide or are we going to connect our [93:02] cloud and we're going to create some [93:04] skills that are specific to our [93:06] workflow. I'm starting to become a big [93:08] fan of that. Uh so I hope that builders [93:11] like Elementor will also allow that. Um, [93:14] uh, I'm actually testing an MCP right [93:16] now. It's going to be interesting. I got [93:18] a an an an an video call two days ago [93:22] from a company that built an WordPress [93:24] MCP and they can basically control [93:27] everything within WordPress and also [93:28] inside of page builders. So, that's [93:31] going to be a workflow. Um, and um, [93:35] yeah, what else? Uh, of oh, of course, [93:37] not having a page builder, but doing it [93:39] straight into Gutenberg. Then also what [93:42] you can also do what he what Jamie also [93:44] showed is cloth code go straight into [93:47] the theme. So you don't even have the [93:48] editing panel but you do have WordPress [93:51] to plug all of your plugins in because [93:53] again a website is not just front end [93:55] right we need to connect all kinds of [93:57] systems it needs to have it needs to [93:59] have backups needs to have analytics you [94:01] need to have a cookie plugin you need to [94:03] have a uptime monitor you need all of [94:06] these different things in order to make [94:07] it work. So it is a lot more. [94:11] Um um I I just wanted to to to say this [94:14] that the whole discussion uh on social [94:18] media is often like oh this company is [94:20] dead. It's like well well it's not [94:23] really like that. And of course I am I [94:25] am challenging Jaime's views a little [94:28] bit and I know he is really a fan of the [94:31] future NAI and me too. But I just hope [94:35] that you see my dynamic here. I'm not [94:38] just going uh into one direction yet. Uh [94:43] maybe I will at some point decide like [94:45] okay this is the direction I'm going to [94:46] go into. I'm right now in a phase where [94:48] I'm trying to figure out what this new [94:50] workflow is. And so when you have when [94:53] we have a person like Jamie in the call [94:56] um I'm just going to challenge his views [94:59] a little bit and you know play play [95:01] devil's advocate a little bit and yeah [95:05] in this way we can get insight. So, I [95:08] hope that I did a good job here. [95:11] Uh, let's quickly check the uh the [95:14] comments. Emin, yeah, absolutely. I made [95:16] a video about that like uh probably a [95:19] year ago. This was um a game changer. [95:23] Yeah, I'm in Mumbai. [95:26] Um [95:28] um [95:30] important talks. Yeah, it was definitely [95:32] important. [95:36] you think the same? I agree with you [95:38] like Jamie like since we have choices. [95:40] Yeah. Okay. Uh let's just check a few [95:43] comments and then I'm going to close it [95:44] off. Uh yeah, I think good to break for [95:46] is going to be nice future. You can [95:48] easily extend vape pay if you like. You [95:52] have more design control. Yeah. Yeah. [95:55] Yeah. Yeah. I mean speed is going to [95:56] become more important, right? But page [95:59] builders are also moving in this [96:00] direction. [96:01] Where are we going to get more speed? Uh [96:04] Lusaka and Zombia. Okay, just putting [96:06] final touches on the headless Nex.js [96:08] front end that's connect to my Oh, [96:09] that's actually that's another workflow [96:11] that's possible, right? Headless, you [96:14] just create the the front end in [96:16] lovable. [96:19] Um, wait, I actually need to write that [96:20] down. That's actually a good point. Uh, [96:23] front end vibe coding and backend [96:27] WordPress. So, you're using the the [96:28] WordPress uh uh post system [96:32] and then you're just the front is [96:34] completely super fast, clean code. Very [96:37] very good point, Jason. [96:40] Uh cloth code work would be a game [96:42] changer. [96:44] Yeah, we would love to come back to [96:46] WordPress if something is coming to the [96:48] future, but the point of speed function [96:50] flow is uh come back to WordPress. Okay. [96:53] Did so did you already move to away? I [96:56] don't know. what you exact what you mean [96:58] with that but um [97:02] yeah it has been uh [97:05] interesting uh is that on brand [97:08] perception is yeah I can't wait to see [97:10] Reno's video [97:12] yeah like is for me personally I I just [97:18] don't understand [97:20] why why [97:23] I why this is such a a a thing that [97:26] there is [97:28] a resistance on like it's not that hard [97:30] to make it better. It's not a big task, [97:33] right? And I understand that they want [97:35] to rebuild the whole thing with a modern [97:37] stack. Uh and because right now it's [97:39] based on old code. I mean, I've heard [97:41] that from some developers that that's [97:44] the reason why they cannot do it. But [97:46] like yeah, I think brand perception is [97:48] incredibly important and and I am a big [97:50] fan of that. like I much of my skills as [97:54] a as a as a as a as a human are in [97:57] branding and and marketing and I'm also [97:59] a designer and a no code developer but I [98:02] I care a lot about how a brand positions [98:04] itself and I want to feel like I'm [98:07] working on the future right and I think [98:09] this has an deep effect on the on the on [98:12] the subconscious of of of us and so I [98:15] think if WordPress would would modernize [98:18] uh just even before they let's say [98:20] They're they're close to revamping the [98:22] whole UI. I know. But let's say that [98:25] that takes another year. I would just, [98:26] you know, give WordPress 7 a little [98:29] fresh paint and not just the colors. [98:32] They they changed the colors. That's [98:33] already better. But I think it just [98:36] needs a little bit more, you know. Yeah. [98:41] He just pops the comments which [98:43] supports. Why you so pushy? What? [98:46] Somebody pushy here? [98:49] I don't know about that test research [98:51] for that anti-gravity and geminis. Yeah, [98:53] I would love to test more of these [98:55] things guys. Um I came in bit late. Did [98:58] he mention schema plugging schema [99:00] plugging? I've been added manually to [99:02] but I know there are plugins there. [99:05] Anyone have I don't know. Are you [99:08] talking about the SEO schema? [99:11] I'm not exactly sure. Drupal have done [99:13] that as well, Reno. It looks totally [99:14] different from a from a few of you. [99:17] Yeah. And and again, I think that that's [99:19] very important for the perception of the [99:21] brand. And if if WordPress is struggling [99:22] right now to keep to attract the cool [99:24] kids Yeah. then and and if you're not [99:27] taking design, if you're not [99:29] prioritizing design and just how it [99:31] feels, right? Not really how it changed [99:33] in the way it works, but just how it [99:35] feels, I think it will be very hard to [99:37] attract to cool kids because if you [99:38] don't understand, this is this is my [99:40] point. If you don't understand how [99:42] WordPress works and you come into this [99:44] world for the first time, the only thing [99:46] you can judge is your eyes. Like in the [99:48] same way, if you're meeting a girl, [99:51] you the the first thing you have to [99:53] judge have to judge is how she looks. [99:56] You don't know about her personality. [99:58] So, you cannot judge it, right? And it's [100:00] and and this was why it's incredibly [100:02] hard for WordPress to attract the the [100:05] new cool kids because [100:08] Yeah. because that first judgment can [100:10] only be on the visual side and then [100:12] after years you realize the power of [100:14] WordPress but then yeah you've already [100:16] accepted the interface you know so [100:21] brand perception somebody tell me [100:22] builder is their sense AI doesn't work [100:25] oh builder is yeah yeah I I have that [100:27] I've seen that it's uh it's quite cool [100:29] it's a generation inside of it uh tuning [100:32] in but yeah you're very late literally [100:35] at the end of the live stream but of [100:38] course you can brought you back. This [100:39] live stream will be automatically turned [100:40] into a replay. Guys, this has been [100:45] great. Um, I'm going to close it off now [100:48] with all the news I have coming up. It's [100:50] always deciding which one to keep [100:53] because the cost Oh, that's a good point [100:55] as well. That's a very good point. But [100:57] then again, even if you decide right now [101:01] or if you if you are convinced that AI [101:04] coding tools can are better and they can [101:06] solve every problem that WordPress ha or [101:08] they they are better in than WordPress. [101:11] Let's say that you come to that [101:12] conclusion. [101:14] Then what are you going to do with all [101:15] these websites that you have right now? [101:16] You're going to convert them? Probably [101:18] not. Maybe if you're if you're deciding [101:21] that you're going to do a rebuild, but [101:24] people don't have time right now to [101:25] rebuild the whole thing, right? So [101:27] that's why WordPress market share will [101:29] not immediately drop right now. It's [101:31] impossible, [101:33] right? Just the fact that something is [101:34] available does not mean people will will [101:37] start using it. I mean, look at claude [101:39] and chat GPT. [101:41] I mean now actually this week people [101:44] uninstall CHGPT a lot because of some [101:48] shady stuff that they're doing but most [101:51] of the world just uses Chet GPT. They [101:53] don't even know Claude exists. [101:56] So yeah, that's all I wanted to say. Uh [101:59] this has been amazing guys. Thank you as [102:02] always for being here. Uh, this was fun [102:05] and uh [102:08] I will see you in the next stream.  📄 **Full text:** ![[Full Document Contents/Articles/Can WordPress Survive the AI Era|Can WordPress Survive the AI Era?, YouTube]] ## Highlights - newbies come into the market and because they have no legacy it's very easy for them to build out and grow. WordPress is a bit like an oil tanker. It's slower to adapt. But now actually with the models getting so good, it's getting to the point where it can, as you've seen some of the designs I've shown you, it can start to compete in terms of the design. So I think what WordPress's opportunity is is to catch the second and third waves as it evolves and the models get better. And the work that James Leage is doing within uh the core AI team is ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01km13y5272xhdgxajw56xv6f3)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - many iterations in terms of its editing experience from HTML, Tiny MCE. Um, and then we went Gutenberg and then and now we've kind of got AI. And it's like if you if you if you say what what does somebody actually want to achieve? They want to achieve a web page layout. if they can do that. Why I don't see people and I love Gutenberg obviously I love Gutenberg but I think we're going to look back in five years time and there are obviously use cases where people we're be we're being quite reductive around some of this conversation but there are use cases where people are ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01km13y52cz6fw51gdepf17r2t)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - All those all those plugins 60,000 plugins. >> Yes. that that gives WordPress a huge leverage if um and the stuff that James Leage and his team are building around the abilities API can tap into lets AI tap into that stuff. So for me I see a future hopefully where the AI is kind of doing the front end experience for people. >> Yeah. >> I suspect in my ideal world the theming layer comes into question what that looks like. I'm a big fan of, you know, ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01km13y52f9bnt0p5swc50923f)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - >> Yeah. But there's also lots of new opportunities, right? We can create web apps like like this is this is huge, right? You can connect your WordPress forums for example to a custom CRM that you build for your clients. It's like there's so much new opportunity as well. Like do you also see that and how do you see WordPress being connected in that story? because it sounds kind of nice if you can let's say you start in lovable you create your website in lovable and you also generate a web app that's ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01km13y52kpsrj3h5mwbhde28j)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - happened over the last 3 months, I'm I'm probably obviously everyone has existential moments around where we're at, but I'm probably the most buoyant I've been around what's possible with WordPress than I've been uh for a long time because the stuff you can create with it is is getting to the point where it's really really awesome comparable to VI coding tools. Um, so I'm not sure I've answered your question at all, Reena. Um, but I think there are I think I just think there's big opportunities for like agencies and freelancers around ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01km13y52qsgjnj9zfh3a7kkwv)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - >> It's already here and you and you can see other hosting companies are approaching this as well. Um, so this stuff this stuff has started to emerge over the last, you know, six months. >> Yeah. >> And my point earlier was we are now getting to the point and you saw in the TX demo, we're getting to the point very soon where the experience should be, my hope is as comparable to these five coding tools in terms of, you know, the WordPress experience. >> Yeah. So, ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01km13y52vb14kxnk6rvg97xhr)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - >> Yeah. >> Um >> so yeah >> but um how do you see the or what do you think makes WordPress strong like what is the what are the most valuable things um apart from the plugins? Well, we have we have 20 years of history. I think I mean we have a huge ecosystem and people around the world and 43 I mean 43% of the web. I think ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01km13y52yff8tz80rwah20w1q)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - and that argument's always been made that the technology WordPress doesn't you know the stack doesn't compete and people always complain about the stack. What WordPress has really, you know, grown from is the ecosystem of people building with open source. That's kind of and that's that hasn't changed. In my view, that is like the potential of that is even stronger with AI because it's kind of democratized that people are going to be able to mold this tool now without having to go through complex learning. They can actually just talk to ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01km13y53263d5p1dbpnk9nja6)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - So I think WordPress is is has historically been behind, but I think that's that's natural for a piece of software that's been 20 years, but there's a there's a kind of consolidation of models, improving AI, the stuff James Lee and his team are doing, they're kind of coalesing into this moment where we're getting to the point where it's like getting, you know, incredibly exciting to start building with WordPress again. like the stuff we've been sharing on Twitter. Yeah. >> And stuff privately, it's like, wow, ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01km13y536f24gyxm5rg298vmh)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - playing with this platform. >> Yeah. WordPress has always been really good at kind of giving people the space to disagree and come up with their own ideas and if they produce something that's like amazing, it'll get brought into core, right? >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's a collaborative thing. >> Yeah. Exactly. So, I think that Yeah. That's that's a big strength. We got some questions. >> Yeah. Let's Okay, let's we're we're one hour in now, so let's do answer some questions and then we're going to we're ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01km13y53atz2zhp7j1df4argr)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted