Devrelshow Episode 45 - Joey De Villa - CourtneyR.dev's 2nd Brain

Devrelshow Episode 45 - Joey De Villa ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/1SPme7zZGRk/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [Devrelshow Episode 45 - Joey De Villa](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SPme7zZGRk) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: #developer-relations #devrel #career #AI #technology #community > author: Fred Bouchery > source: The DevRel Show > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SPme7zZGRk > date created: 2024-12-28 12:00 > > # 🏷️ Title: DevRel Show Episode 45 - Joey de Villa on Developer Relations, AI, and Zero Trust Networks >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Consider how AI will augment rather than replace DevRel tasks — automation potential #AI - [H2] Evaluate Open Ziti for zero trust network architecture — security demonstration #networking - [H3] Explore documentation strategies for AI consumption — content transformation #documentation ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [[#📝 Summary]] - [[#📖 Main Content]] - [[#🗒️ Notes]] - [[#📚 References]] - [[#🗣️ Paraphrase]] - [[#📰 Newsletter]] - [[#✅ Action Items]] - [[#🧪 Hypotheses]] - [[#📊 Methodology]] - [[#❓ Questions]] - [[#🔮 Future Research]] - [[#💡 Implications]] - [[#🧠 Learning Styles Assessment]] - [[#📊 Accessibility Assessment]] - [[#🌍 DEIB Assessment]] - [[#✅ Logical Validity]] - [[#🛡️ DARVO Analysis]] - [[#🎯 Conclusion]] ### 🔗 References - [Open Ziti Project](https://openziti.github.io) - [Net Foundry](https://netfoundry.io) ## 📝 Summary - Discussion between Fred Bouchery and Joey de Villa about DevRel careers, AI impact, and networking technology - Joey announces new role as Senior Developer Advocate at Net Foundry working on Open Ziti - Exploration of how AI will change but not replace developer relations work - Live demonstration of zero trust networking with Open Ziti - Reflections on Microsoft developer evangelism team and community building ## 📖 Main Content Joey de Villa, veteran developer advocate known for bringing his accordion to conferences, discusses his career journey and new role at Net Foundry. The conversation covers the evolution of developer relations, concerns about AI replacing DevRel roles, and the importance of human connection in technical advocacy. Joey demonstrates Open Ziti, an open-source zero trust networking solution that makes networks "dark by default" - only accessible with proper cryptographic credentials. The discussion touches on their shared experience at Microsoft's developer evangelism team and how the industry has changed over the past decade. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/1SPme7zZGRk?t=0) — [H2] Show introduction and schedule changes - Key idea: Fred explains irregular scheduling due to travel demands - Evidence: "I was super strict about doing it every two weeks but I was always traveling" #### ⏱️ [02:15](https://youtu.be/1SPme7zZGRk?t=135) — [H3] Joey's background and Tampa Bay Tech Week - Key idea: Joey enjoying sunny weather and networking at tech events - Evidence: "We were on a boat that went around the harbor in Tampa for dinner" #### ⏱️ [04:30](https://youtu.be/1SPme7zZGRk?t=270) — [H2] Speaking at Arc of AI conference about documentation - Key idea: Documentation must now be optimized for AI consumption - Evidence: "Writing documentation that AI will also understand because you need to take a slightly different approach" #### ⏱️ [07:00](https://youtu.be/1SPme7zZGRk?t=420) — [H3] Joey's origin story in developer relations - Key idea: Accidentally became developer advocate through conference appearance - Evidence: "I jumped in front of some cameras with my accordion and parlayed that into an interview" #### ⏱️ [10:45](https://youtu.be/1SPme7zZGRk?t=645) — [H2] Windows Phone evangelism efforts - Key idea: Struggled with app ecosystem despite good hardware and OS - Evidence: "We were trying for a thousand apps in the store prior to launch" #### ⏱️ [15:20](https://youtu.be/1SPme7zZGRk?t=920) — [H1] The infamous Microsoft Tech Ready presentation - Key idea: Joey's controversial but memorable talk about mobile UI design - Evidence: "The app I kept referring to was called Sausage Party" #### ⏱️ [22:30](https://youtu.be/1SPme7zZGRk?t=1350) — [H2] Current job market challenges in DevRel - Key idea: Competitive market with AI anxiety affecting hiring - Evidence: "I worked frantically on Christmas Eve and submitted an assignment" #### ⏱️ [28:15](https://youtu.be/1SPme7zZGRk?t=1695) — [H1] AI's impact on developer relations roles - Key idea: AI will augment tasks but human connection remains essential - Evidence: "The human element talking developer to developer, building relationships, that's still something you need a human for" #### ⏱️ [34:00](https://youtu.be/1SPme7zZGRk?t=2040) — [H2] Expanded definition of "developer" with AI tools - Key idea: Low-code/no-code tools expand who counts as a developer - Evidence: "Now it's somebody who has a problem they want to solve and has an idea of how to solve it" #### ⏱️ [38:45](https://youtu.be/1SPme7zZGRk?t=2325) — [H3] Role confusion in DevRel positions - Key idea: Companies often misunderstand developer advocacy as sales - Evidence: "Pretend I'm a large customer and you're trying to convince me to use our system" #### ⏱️ [42:30](https://youtu.be/1SPme7zZGRk?t=2550) — [H1] Joey announces new role at Net Foundry - Key idea: Senior Developer Advocate position working on Open Ziti project - Evidence: "Net Foundry are the people who make an open source project called Open Ziti" #### ⏱️ [44:15](https://youtu.be/1SPme7zZGRk?t=2655) — [H2] Zero trust networking demonstration - Key idea: Networks should be "dark by default" with cryptographic access - Evidence: "Port 8080 is completely missing. You cannot break into a port you can't even see" ## 📚 References - [Open Ziti GitHub](https://openziti.github.io/) - [Net Foundry](https://netfoundry.io/) - [DevRel Collective](https://devrelcollective.fun/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Joey de Villa has built a career in developer relations spanning over two decades, accidentally starting when he brought an accordion to a conference - The developer relations field is grappling with AI anxiety, but the human connection aspect of DevRel work remains irreplaceable - Zero trust networking through Open Ziti creates "dark by default" networks that are only accessible with proper cryptographic credentials ## 📰 Newsletter 🎯 **DevRel Evolution in the AI Era** Joey de Villa's latest career move to Net Foundry highlights how experienced developer advocates continue finding meaningful roles despite market uncertainty. His perspective on AI as an augmentation tool rather than replacement offers reassurance to the DevRel community. **Key Takeaway:** Focus on the human connection aspects of developer relations that AI cannot replicate - relationship building, community fostering, and empathetic problem-solving. **Notable Quote:** "When I hear an accent, I hear courage. It takes balls to move to another place where it's not your first language." **Tech Demo:** Joey's live demonstration of Open Ziti showcased practical zero trust networking - making servers invisible until proper credentials are provided. Resources: [Open Ziti](https://openziti.github.io), [DevRel Collective](https://devrelcollective.fun/), [Net Foundry](https://netfoundry.io/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create content about AI's augmentation vs replacement role - Education: Develop workshops on zero trust networking for developers - Developer experience: Document best practices for AI-readable documentation - Community management: Foster discussions about DevRel career resilience #### OSPO - Software Inventory: Evaluate zero trust solutions like Open Ziti - Security Management: Assess network security posture and dark-by-default approaches - Developer Support: Provide guidance on securing development environments #### Community - Maintainers: Support open source zero trust networking projects - Contributors: Encourage participation in security-focused open source - Ecosystem: Bridge traditional networking and modern development practices ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Zero trust networking will become standard for developer tooling and API access - AI tools will expand the definition of "developer" to include more non-technical users - Human relationship skills in DevRel will become more valuable as AI handles routine tasks - Open source security solutions will gain adoption over proprietary alternatives ### 📊 Methodology - Survey DevRel practitioners on AI tool usage and impact concerns - Analyze adoption rates of zero trust networking in developer organizations - Study correlation between DevRel relationship-building activities and business outcomes ### ❓ Questions - How should developer documentation be restructured for both human and AI consumption? - What specific DevRel tasks are most suitable for AI augmentation versus human expertise? - How can zero trust networking improve developer experience without adding friction? ### 🔮 Future Research - Impact of AI on DevRel metrics and measurement strategies - Integration patterns for zero trust networking in developer workflows - Career transition strategies for DevRel professionals in AI-augmented organizations ### 💡 Implications - Practice: DevRel professionals should focus on relationship and community skills - Security: Zero trust approaches may revolutionize how developers access internal tools - Education: Documentation strategies need updates for AI consumption patterns - Funding: Investment in human-centered DevRel activities may increase as differentiation ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Grade 12 (technical discussion with clear explanations) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Live demonstration of zero trust networking concepts - Improve: Network architecture diagrams, before/after security visualizations #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Conversational podcast-style format with natural discussion - Improve: Audio summary of key technical concepts #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear analogies (accordion guy, sausage party app, dark networks) - Improve: Glossary of networking and DevRel terminology #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Code demonstration with practical examples - Improve: Step-by-step Open Ziti setup guide #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear cause-effect discussion of AI impact on careers - Improve: Decision matrix for evaluating zero trust solutions #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Discussion of team dynamics and community building - Improve: Community forum links and discussion prompts #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Personal career reflections and individual experiences - Improve: Self-assessment checklist for DevRel skills #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Evolution metaphors for technology and career development - Improve: Ecosystem analogies for developer communities ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear speaker identification and topic transitions - Improve: Structured headings for transcript sections #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard video player controls available - Improve: Timestamp navigation shortcuts #### Contrast and readability - Present: Clear video quality with good lighting - Improve: High contrast captions for code demonstrations #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive video player - Improve: Transcript availability for text scaling #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided - Improve: Synchronized captions with technical term highlighting #### Forms and interactions - Present: Simple video interface - Improve: Interactive transcript with clickable timestamps ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Canadian and Filipino perspectives represented - Improve: More diverse geographic examples in networking use cases #### Inclusive language - Present: Respectful discussion of accents and language learning - Improve: Avoid gendered assumptions in developer examples #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear section breaks and topic transitions - Improve: Content warnings for potentially triggering job loss discussions #### Representation - Present: Immigration experience and multilingual challenges acknowledged - Improve: More diverse career path examples #### Psychological safety - Present: Supportive discussion of career challenges - Improve: Resources for job seekers and career transition support ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: AI will augment but not replace human relationship building (strong premise) - Inductive strength: Career examples support broader DevRel market trends (moderate) - Causal reasoning: Network visibility leads to vulnerability (strong technical reasoning) - Analogical strength: Programming abstraction layers compared to AI tools (effective) #### Fallacies - Survivorship bias: Success stories may not represent typical experiences - Appeal to tradition: "We've always needed humans" may not predict future accurately #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Conversational, optimistic, technically informed with personal anecdotes ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No denial patterns observed - Attack: No attacks on accusers present - Reverse victim/offender: Not applicable to this content - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Positive, supportive discussion of career challenges ## 🎯 Conclusion This conversation highlights the resilience and evolution of developer relations as a field. While AI presents uncertainty, experienced practitioners like Joey de Villa demonstrate that focusing on human connection, community building, and practical problem-solving remains valuable. The demonstration of Open Ziti also shows how security-first approaches can be made developer-friendly, suggesting opportunities for DevRel professionals to bridge security and developer experience gaps. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### [H1] Zero trust networks improve security through cryptographic access control > [!quote] [DevRel Show Episode 45](https://youtu.be/1SPme7zZGRk) by Joey de Villa via The DevRel Show. Published 2024. Accessed 2024-12-28. > "You cannot break into a port that you can't even see." Demonstrates practical security benefits of dark-by-default networking approaches for developer infrastructure. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/1SPme7zZGRk?t=2700) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_001 ### [H2] AI augments rather than replaces developer relations work > [!quote] [DevRel Show Episode 45](https://youtu.be/1SPme7zZGRk) > "The human element talking developer to developer, building relationships, that's still something you need a human for." Supports focus on relationship-building skills as AI handles routine tasks in DevRel practice. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/1SPme7zZGRk?t=1695) #xref ID:rw_002 --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) #### [Z1] Documentation must consider AI consumption patterns - Scope: Technical writing for both human and LLM audiences - Pointer: 04:30 timestamp on AI conference speaking topic - Links: [[AI-Tools]] [[Technical-Writing]] #### [Z2] Network security through invisibility rather than hardening - Scope: Zero trust networking principles for developers - Pointer: 44:15 Open Ziti demonstration - Links: [[Network-Security]] [[Developer-Tools]] --- ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue - [F1] Research Arc of AI conference talks on documentation — speaking opportunity #fleeting #conferences - [F2] Evaluate Open Ziti for internal tool security — network architecture #fleeting #security - [F3] Create DevRel career resilience content — AI anxiety response #fleeting #content --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] Heat. Heat. [00:32] Hello. Hello, lovely people. Do you do [00:34] you like the intro song? You look like [00:36] someone who liked the [00:37] >> Yeah. Yeah, it's good. It's rocking. I [00:39] really like it. [00:40] >> I mean, it always said the moon. I'm [00:42] always excited to do that show, but like [00:44] when the intro song is there, just like [00:46] dancing by myself and like it it pumped [00:48] me up for the show, which I do not [00:50] really need, but still uh it's just [00:52] nice. So, hello everyone. Happy to be [00:56] back. I think it's been a month that I [00:58] was not about to uh do any devil show [01:01] episode. Uh I told you multiple time I [01:04] started to travel again for work. So, my [01:06] schedule is a little more uh difficult [01:08] uh now to do live stream. But I will [01:10] change how I do that. I was I don't know [01:12] why I was super strict about doing it [01:14] like every two weeks like within my [01:16] schedule. And it happens that I was [01:18] always traveling the day or the week [01:20] that like I was supposed to have an [01:22] episode. Now I'm just going to go like [01:24] all over the place and still trying to [01:26] like do it when I'm at home. It's just [01:27] easier. I could do it on the road, but [01:30] um I prefer to like just do it at round [01:32] in the comfort of my you know I wouldn't [01:35] call this a studio but like with my [01:36] equipment and everything I think and you [01:38] have the benefit of having cats once in [01:41] a while. Tails was with us. He left now [01:43] Carlos uh is is is walking around. So [01:47] yeah, um hopefully I'm going to be able [01:48] to continue to show as often as I used [01:51] to before I started to travel again. So [01:53] apologize for that. Maybe you did not [01:56] miss me, but I miss people. I miss doing [01:58] that show. Or maybe you did not even [02:00] recognize me because you know I just [02:01] started to grow my beard back again. So [02:03] it's been a while I didn't have a beard. [02:05] But anyway, it's been a while. Just [02:07] happy to be here as always. Always fun. [02:10] And I need to say today I would probably [02:14] even before it start categorize that [02:16] episode as that's going to be a fun one [02:19] because you know my guest is Joey. [02:22] Joey, how is life? [02:25] Life is pretty good actually. I can't [02:27] complain. I am enjoying uh I'm enjoying [02:31] sunny weather in Tampa, Florida. So, um [02:35] by Canadian standards, it's summer [02:37] weather. Uh I'd say I'd say actually [02:41] it's a little cool today. I would for [02:42] Tampa, I would say it's about 27 degrees [02:45] C. That is [02:48] low low 80s. I I have not yet switched [02:51] to Fahrenheit yet. I've been here I've [02:53] been here a dozen years and I have not [02:55] yet switched to Fahrenheit. But [02:58] >> I mean with all respect for American, I [03:00] don't think Fahrenheit makes sense. Uh [03:03] and obviously I use Celsius. So like I [03:05] understand Celsius. So but I'm surprised [03:08] though. I thought that after like more [03:09] than 10 years you would have like [03:10] switched. But at the same time you live [03:12] in Canada for for for way longer than [03:15] that. [03:15] >> Way long. Yeah. For way longer. So I'm [03:18] enjoying I'm enjoying some sunny [03:19] weather. I live in a nice I I live in a [03:22] nice neighborhood. I've landed a new [03:24] job. This is a particularly um [03:27] interesting and busy week for me because [03:29] it's it's Tampa Bay Tech Week. So, uh [03:31] there are a lot of there are a lot of [03:33] mini conferences happening all over the [03:35] place. And last night uh we were on we [03:39] were on a boat that went around the [03:40] harbor in Tampa for dinner and uh just [03:44] meeting up with the local techies and [03:46] some investors um people on the money [03:49] side of technology who I don't always [03:51] see all the time. I tend to talk to [03:53] developers more than uh more than people [03:56] on the money side but I but you know you [03:58] end up doing that anyways. And then uh [04:01] on Saturday we're flying down to Austin [04:04] to enjoy some bourbon and some barbecue. [04:06] And also I'm going to be speaking at the [04:08] Ark of AI conference where I will be [04:11] talking about an interesting topic that [04:14] does touch on Devril or uh those those [04:17] of you in Devril who do who write [04:19] documentation as well. I'm talking about [04:22] writing documentation that AI will also [04:25] understand because that you need to take [04:27] a slightly different approach. I like [04:30] that. I like that. Uh damn. I'm now I'm [04:33] sad that I'm won't be able to like I [04:35] won't be there and won't be able to [04:36] listen to the talk because I gave talk [04:38] once in a while about like creating [04:40] proper developer documentation and now [04:42] like I need to change a little bit like [04:44] how I'm talking about those like there's [04:46] a lot of like best practices that kind [04:48] of like keep being the same because you [04:49] still like need to have your docs for [04:51] the users but as you said now you need [04:53] to think about like LLMs that will train [04:56] in your documentation and your data. So [04:58] I like that and if you are going to that [05:00] conference if you did not have the [05:03] chance to see Joey on stage you have to [05:07] that that's a whole experience in itself [05:09] uh see Joey speaking because I and it is [05:13] coming exactly you don't only just see [05:15] Joey speaking if you've been at a [05:17] conference where Joey is like for me [05:19] let's say I go to the conference usually [05:21] people see me because I'm really loud I [05:23] take a lot of space I'm an extrovert I [05:25] talk to a lot of people so usually when [05:27] we are at the same conference [05:27] conference, we had the chance to meet [05:29] when you're at the same conference of [05:30] Joey, you have the chance to hear Joey [05:33] because that accordion is there all the [05:37] all the time. [05:38] >> Yeah. [05:40] >> Yeah. And I'm gonna have to play the [05:42] official song of AI, which is also a [05:44] tribute to Afroman. Congratulations to [05:46] Afroman on winning that freedom of [05:48] speech case. [05:52] >> I was going to get a job, but then came [05:54] AI. [05:57] I'm now an unemployed slob because of [06:00] AI. [06:02] I'm hiding from Terminators. Yeah, you [06:05] know why. Yay. Hey. Cuz of AI. Cuz of [06:09] AI. Cuz of AI. [06:15] I love it. I love it so much. Also, like [06:18] it's not confirmed yet. We just submit [06:21] uh a talk a panel. But uh speaking about [06:24] Joan stage, speaking about me, speaking [06:26] about Joey playing the accordion, um [06:28] hopefully uh our panel is going to be [06:30] selected for Devil Con in New York [06:32] happening this summer. So I submitted a [06:34] panel uh to you know some kind of like [06:37] MA ask me anything but ask everything [06:40] and anything about developer relation [06:41] with people that are doing that for a [06:43] long time. So Joey, myself, uh Chris [06:46] Dear, Chris Dear, sorry, Chris and also [06:49] uh Eder I forgot his last name. Yeah, [06:52] thank you uh Erodani. Uh so hopefully [06:55] our panel is going to be selected, but [06:57] if you're at the Dro County in New York, [06:59] uh even if we're not on stage, uh we're [07:00] going to be there and you probably going [07:02] to hear me talk really loud and Joey uh [07:04] probably gonna sing a song check and [07:08] it'll be fun. And interesting thing [07:10] about this panel, I have worked with [07:12] both you and Heather. [07:15] >> Oh yeah, actually [07:19] >> Yeah. Yeah. was at Octa and I was at Otz [07:21] Zero and Otzero got bought out by Octa [07:24] 2021. [07:26] >> Speaking of that, uh, you know, I know [07:29] you, we've been friends for a long time. [07:30] We work together at Microsoft. Maybe we [07:32] can talk a little more about that, but [07:34] maybe maybe there are people living [07:36] under a rock who do not know the [07:38] accordion guy. So, like tell tell people [07:41] like who are you? [07:43] >> Lots of people who don't know me. Well, [07:44] anyways, I'm Joey Dilla and I have [07:47] largely been uh developer evangelist, [07:50] developer advocate, devril person, [07:53] whatever, whatever you want to call it. [07:55] And I have been doing it for some time. [07:58] I accidentally became uh a developer [08:02] advocate uh in the year it was 2000 [08:06] actually. I was working with Corey [08:07] Doctoro startup it called Open Cola. And [08:11] what happened was I was I was originally [08:13] a developer and I went to Linux World [08:17] Expo New York City. And while I was [08:19] there, I jump I had my accordion with [08:21] me. Uh was one of the first times I took [08:23] an accordion to a conference. I jumped [08:25] in front of some cameras uh and parlayed [08:28] that into an interview. And by the time [08:30] I returned to Toronto, they said, [08:32] "You're now doing developer relations." [08:34] And since then, uh I've been doing a lot [08:37] of it. I did it at uh I did it at two [08:40] cows. A lot of people think think of two [08:44] cows as shareware but touc actually [08:46] provide two cows real money makers [08:49] providing services like domain name [08:51] registration and other capabilities to [08:54] hosting services. That's really where [08:55] they make their money. So I was helping [08:58] uh developers at these hosting services [09:01] uh connect you know just learn the APIs [09:03] to connect to twocow services. Um after [09:06] that Microsoft where I was there for a [09:08] while and that's where I met you Fred [09:10] and uh yeah they hired yeah they took me [09:13] in from the open- source world and my [09:16] job was to talk to was to talk to what [09:18] Microsoft at the time categorized as [09:21] unfriendly audiences in other words open [09:24] source which was wild and uh no had a [09:28] grand old time. In fact uh I I have um [09:32] what did I do? I yeah I was at a I was [09:34] at a talk where Richard Stallman was [09:36] auctioning off a plush GNU [09:39] uh and uh he was asking way more than [09:42] this was a student conference and he [09:44] started the bid at $100 and this is 20 [09:48] 2009 I think so these are $29 $100 [09:52] somebody at the back yells we're [09:54] students [09:56] >> but he he he he insisted on the starting [09:58] price at $100 and in the end uh Just as [10:02] a stunt, I decided, you know what? I'm [10:05] going as the as the Microsoft [10:07] representative, I'm going to buy the GNU [10:09] and I'm going to pay for it with a [10:11] Microsoft credit card. [10:14] >> And from what I know about the man, I'm [10:18] pretty sure was not super happy. [10:21] >> He was actually all right with it. Okay. [10:24] He was Yeah, because I talked with him [10:26] later on and I'm going, you know, [10:27] Microsoft actually puts out an open [10:29] source version of PHP that is better [10:31] tuned for Microsoft servers for internet [10:35] uh for IIS internet. Oh god, I don't [10:38] even I can't even remember what II is [10:40] short for. It's been so long. [10:42] >> Internet information server. [10:44] >> Yes, it's been so long. And you know [10:47] since and then yeah because of that [10:49] actually I got invited over to uh uh [10:52] when we went to Microsoft for tech ready [10:55] uh I got invi that's an internal [10:56] conference I got invited to see the open [10:58] source the open source lab there at the [11:01] time it was in building 17 and it's [11:03] where they compiled the uh version of [11:06] micros they of PHP for window that ran [11:09] on Windows server and they had other [11:12] open- source projects and I gave them [11:15] the GNU they had they had a whole bunch [11:17] of unharmed tux penguins and other plush [11:21] open source animals and yeah it was a [11:23] little yeah and they were uh it was an [11:26] interesting time to be part of an open [11:27] source project back then [11:30] Garrett Sarak was running it but yeah [11:33] fantastic guy and we've stayed in touch [11:35] all these years and um also at Microsoft [11:38] the other thing was after a while they [11:40] decided you know what I'd be because I [11:42] had a mobile focus they figured I'd be a [11:44] good a good person to be one of the [11:47] Windows Phone 7 champions. So, I tried [11:50] really hard to make Windows Phone 7 [11:52] happen. I really [11:55] >> No, sorry. I was just going to say I [11:57] think it was a fantastic phone. I really [11:59] love the OS and like the tile thing was [12:02] was really something modern at the time [12:05] and especially when when Nokia jump in [12:08] the like doing hardware. I think like we [12:10] had a good mix of like the OS was [12:13] interesting, the hardware was great. [12:15] >> Hardware. Yeah. [12:17] >> So, oh my god, [12:18] >> I see people in the chat. So, there is [12:21] uh wired kind of my god my former [12:24] colleagues. How are you gentlemen? [12:27] >> Oh, wait. [12:28] >> It's kind of it's uh either Rick or [12:33] Pierre. Actually, I'm not sure which one [12:36] is Bar. I'm so sorry. It's It's one of [12:38] one of the two. It's either Is it? I [12:41] don't know. You're going to tell us. But [12:42] >> yeah, you're going to have to tell us. [12:44] But [12:44] >> look at this one. The Acornian guy and [12:47] the tea princess. And I don't know if [12:49] you remember that. It's a story. [12:51] >> We were at actually I think it was it's [12:53] Pierre. Yeah, it's Pierre. So, uh Pierre [12:56] Pier, I don't know why I said that [12:57] accent. Pierre. Uh we were actually at [13:00] tech ready I think which as Joey said it [13:02] was an internal conference at Microsoft [13:04] and uh I don't know why I think I wanted [13:09] to drink a little less coffee so I was [13:11] like I started to be really into tea and [13:15] >> as ADHD person I usually go all in and [13:18] something new like so I bought the great [13:20] tea and I bought something so I can have [13:23] my own tea when I'm traveling and all [13:25] those things and so I had my own tea. We [13:28] were sitting at the table. I was like [13:30] boiling the water and then having my own [13:32] tea and I can't remember who called me [13:35] like tea princess and but we have this [13:38] on recording. It's somewhere in YouTube. [13:39] There's a video on me like saying I [13:42] think maybe even myself I said like I'm [13:43] a tea princess or something like that. [13:45] So yeah, I did not remember that but [13:47] thank god it's been forever. So that's [13:51] why I said this show would be different [13:54] than the other one because I've had [13:55] guests that I know on the show. I have [13:57] guests that like I met during the show, [14:00] but I've known Joey since forever. Yeah, [14:02] that was Bartto. Thanks, Pio. You have a [14:04] pretty good memory for uh the age you [14:07] reach now because you're not a young man [14:09] anymore. You have a pretty good memory, [14:11] P. But yeah, that was Bartalo. Bartalo [14:14] who called me the tea princess, but we [14:15] have this on video. So, uh no, that was [14:18] so much fun. And I have another story. I [14:20] don't know if we can talk about this, [14:22] but uh let's just go to other comments. [14:24] Uh there is uh Nightfly 89. I say I love [14:28] the Windows uh [14:29] >> Windows Windows phone on Nokia. Quite [14:31] good. [14:32] >> That was pretty good. I think and and [14:34] it's I think it's common knowledge now. [14:36] Uh it was not successful just because [14:38] we're not able to play that numbers [14:40] game. You know when you had like an [14:42] iPhone, you had a Android uh you were [14:45] going at a marketplace or whatever like [14:47] like the store and everything was there [14:49] like every application that you wanted [14:51] to install was there. with Microsoft [14:54] like we were building some of them. We [14:56] were paying contractor to build some of [14:58] them but we were like [14:59] >> we were [15:00] >> and we were encouraging developers to [15:02] build some of them. So we had Yeah. Uh [15:04] because I remember we had some uh [15:07] >> we we we we rewarded some developers. So [15:10] uh I oh I wish I could remember his [15:12] name. A young guy like I think uh either [15:14] a late high school or early university [15:16] student wrote what I consider to be the [15:20] best fart app ever. It was a fant it it [15:23] was fantastic. Used the w used the uh [15:26] Windows phone tiles beautifully. It was [15:28] a fant and there it was one of the uh it [15:30] was one of the apps that I got into I I [15:33] helped get into the store before the [15:35] phone launched. We were trying for a [15:37] thousand a thousand apps in the store [15:39] prior to launch. His was his was one of [15:42] them. I remember I gave him Yeah. I gave [15:44] him an Xbox 360 out of the magic swag [15:47] cabinet in uh from the Missaga office. I [15:50] love the magic swag cabinet, the Xboxes, [15:53] the Ogo backpacks, all the keyboard, all [15:57] the good stuff. The Arc mouse. I love [16:00] the Ark Mouse. Microsoft, you got to [16:02] bring the Arc mouse back. I love it. [16:03] >> That was that was such good. I I like I [16:05] cry a little when mine died. Uh because [16:08] it was like that was so good. And [16:10] especially I'm not the kind of person [16:11] who bring my mouse with myself when I go [16:14] in coffee shop and stuff, but like if [16:15] you do, that was the perfect mouse for [16:16] it because you could like just put it [16:18] like flat [16:19] >> and yeah, that was that was really [16:21] great. Uh yeah, there's a couple of [16:23] people who were really successful with [16:25] the Windows phone stores and the window [16:27] 8, Windows 8 store either from our side [16:31] because we were giving them like a lot [16:33] of free stuff because they were like [16:35] launching popular applications or [16:37] sometime we have programs where like the [16:39] more stuff they were doing the more [16:40] points they had and it could exchange [16:42] that to like as you said Xbox or stuff [16:43] like that. But some people made serious [16:45] money or it helps them to like lend jobs [16:49] after. So even if the like the platform [16:51] was not successful in itself um I I [16:54] think it was successful for what we've [16:56] done during that time but that was a [16:58] struggle also like after Microsoft I [17:00] went to Mozilla and we also tried to [17:02] launch a phone platform Firefox OS which [17:05] it may not be as well known because it [17:07] was mostly for for country um where [17:10] people may not be able to afford afford [17:13] the latest iPhone but um you know like [17:17] you know the cheap Android they're [17:19] really cheap like they're they're not [17:20] good quality. So the goal was to offer [17:22] something that was inexpensive but still [17:24] working well but on top of that for [17:26] developers to be able to build [17:27] application using u uh CSS HTML [17:30] JavaScript and I think the platform was [17:32] fantastic and we had a lot of developers [17:34] that were excited about it but we also [17:36] struggled to get as many hs as like [17:40] people needed on the platform because [17:41] when you go on a new platform you expect [17:43] to have all the applications that [17:45] everybody's using on the platform. So we [17:47] struggled to that and also I think in [17:49] terms of like Mozilla, Mosilla was doing [17:52] everything in the open like even their [17:54] teams meeting notes were on a weekly [17:56] that was public somewhere and now they [17:58] had to work with telecommunication [18:00] companies which are not open at all. So [18:02] I think they had a certain struggle [18:04] there but uh let me show some of their [18:06] comments. Uh Pierre is like I'm older [18:08] than the internet and I did not know [18:11] that it says that the heart mouse is [18:14] still available. [18:14] >> Oh we'll have to check. Okay, we'll have [18:16] to check that out. [18:18] >> Yeah, now I I really like I've been [18:19] using the this Logitech mouse which uh [18:22] show sign of wear, but I really like the [18:25] form factor, too. But like if that mouse [18:27] is dying, the heart mouse was was pretty [18:29] good. Pretty pretty good. [18:32] I don't know if you want to talk about [18:33] this probably, but like the last tech [18:35] ready that uh you've done uh you gave [18:39] one of what I consider the best talk [18:41] that I've seen at any conferences, but [18:44] it's a talk that puts you in deep [18:46] You were in trouble. [18:47] >> It is. And no, and you know what? This [18:49] is a Devrell show. Let you know we can [18:51] we can tell we can tell embarrassing [18:53] stories and it is what is it now? It's [18:56] at least 15 years in the past. [18:57] >> Yeah. [18:58] >> No. Yeah. But I do Yeah. I I I think uh [19:01] some people took issue with um a prop a [19:05] proposed app and I was talking about [19:07] Yeah. I was talking about user interface [19:09] design for Windows phone and the app I [19:12] kept referring to was a uh theoretical [19:15] application called Sausage Party which [19:18] was an application Yeah. which which I [19:22] think is would still be useful today. [19:23] Sausage Party simply reports the maleto [19:26] female ratio at bars near you. [19:30] That is it. It's It's taken from a term [19:33] that bouncers at bars and clubs use. [19:35] It's called the sausage party. That's [19:37] when there's way too many guys and way [19:40] too few women. And usually what happens [19:42] is a fight breaks out. You You get too [19:45] many guys in a place and with a lot of [19:47] alcohol at night [19:49] >> with pounding music some Yeah. a fight's [19:52] going to break out. So that I I think [19:55] that was I I think that was part of it. [19:56] I think the other thing was um Oh, yeah. [19:59] You know what? Um I think it was a [20:02] survey. Yeah. I was I was pointing out [20:03] some survey results about when people [20:05] use their phone and there was a um there [20:09] was a percentage a shockingly [20:12] what I thought was shockingly high, like [20:14] 15% of kids were using their mobile [20:17] phones while having sex. [20:20] And I was going, I don't know how it's [20:22] even pos uh I don't know how it's even [20:25] possible. And I pointed to my [20:26] co-presenter Paul and I was going we [20:28] were going to demonstrate but there are [20:29] these things called boundaries and yeah [20:32] that [20:34] >> poor Paul. I mean I mean like like yeah [20:37] I remember all that things. So yeah, no, [20:39] thanks for sharing. Like it may not be [20:41] as funny as you if you were not there or [20:43] like you were not part of all this, but [20:46] that was I've never laughed that much in [20:48] a talk. And in in all seriousness, like [20:52] yes, it put you in troubles because like [20:54] there was a corporate events and and not [20:56] everybody is like her team was. Let's [20:58] just say it like that. Uh but like from [21:02] my point of view like if I want to be [21:03] serious about that [21:05] >> like joking and and and using day-to-day [21:08] example to talk about text you know [21:10] we're talking about great experience for [21:11] building as a building mobile [21:13] application. I think it's the best way [21:15] to go like to to you know instead of [21:17] just like those are the facts and like [21:19] being super serious like you make jokes [21:21] you make it fun so people learn [21:22] something but they laugh at the same [21:24] time. I think that's the recipe for a [21:26] successful public speaker. I mean, not [21:28] everybody needs to do that or that [21:30] specific example, but at the end of the [21:32] day, I think that's the way to go. [21:34] >> Yeah, that is the way to go. And I do [21:36] try and remember there is a rule that [21:38] comedians tell each other all the time. [21:40] It's it's big in comedy circles, and [21:42] that is if it bends, it's comedy. If it [21:45] breaks, it isn't comedy. And the idea is [21:50] it's largely it's it's largely about [21:52] laughing at ourselves and not laughing [21:56] at the expense of other people. But [21:58] yeah, and it is it's I think it is [22:01] important to help maintain that sense of [22:04] humor especially these days right now [22:06] especially in Devril because we are [22:09] we're in the age of AI there is a lot of [22:12] anxiousness and worry because people are [22:15] going you know um am I going to get laid [22:18] off for various reasons either I'm going [22:19] to get replaced by AI or at least [22:23] somebody is going to use AI as an excuse [22:25] to have these layoffs [22:27] And we've se and we've seen it happen. [22:30] And it is a challenging it is a [22:33] challenging market out there. In fact, I [22:35] uh uh I had been re I I've just recently [22:38] come off a job search and it was it was [22:42] a it was a little on the long side and [22:45] had some and uh had some ups and downs [22:48] including one case where I was doing [22:51] some contract work and a contract got [22:53] can um my contract got cancelled. [22:56] Sometimes these things happen. Business [22:58] business business priorities change and [23:00] then um yeah the competition even within [23:03] Devril which uh I suspect is still an [23:07] easier [23:08] >> an easier still an easier market to land [23:10] a job in than straight up development [23:13] just because the population's smaller. [23:15] Not everybody not everybody wants to do [23:17] Devril. And there's a larger while [23:20] there's a larger body of [23:22] >> jobs out there for straight up [23:24] developers, they're still uh there is an [23:27] even larger body of people trying to get [23:29] those trying to get those jobs. So I [23:32] mean in one case I remember there was a [23:34] recruiter who on [23:36] >> uh I was interviewing at one place and [23:38] the recruiter told me the recruiter [23:40] actually said you know what if you could [23:44] if you could hand in that homework [23:46] assignment. So, I think it was uh I had [23:48] to uh do a write up, propose a new [23:51] feature um and write a really short [23:54] script to implement that feature. If you [23:56] could do that today, I think this will [23:59] win them over. And I told I was going, [24:01] "Okay, but you know, it's Christmas Eve, [24:03] right?" But I did. Yes. So, just this [24:06] past Christmas Eve, I worked frantically [24:10] and submitted an assignment [24:12] for this uh for this Devril job. It did [24:15] not pan out. uh it did not pan out. They [24:18] changed plans. [24:19] >> I I I thought I think it was on track. [24:21] But yeah, these things these things [24:23] happen. And um the other thing I've been [24:26] doing and I get I always get permission [24:29] for this is with my interview with my [24:31] interviews for various Devril jobs. I've [24:34] been um I've been recording. [24:37] I've been recording and I've used [24:39] Gemini. Uh Gemini is really good at [24:42] taking getting transcripts uh out of a [24:45] recording and then having both it and uh [24:49] both it and Clo analyze it. Since I'm [24:52] talking with you, Fred, I can call it I [24:54] can pronounce the name properly. It's [24:56] Clo. It's not Claude. I know. It's funny [24:59] because I was talking about it at a talk [25:01] recently and I was like I feel like I'm [25:03] breaking my jaw and I tried to force [25:05] myself to say Claude and I'm like I need [25:07] to say it like Claude. I'm like, "No, [25:09] it's Clo." Like, I mean, now Clude. [25:11] >> Yeah. Yeah. That's it. That's that's [25:12] that's its name. I mean, I I I I went to [25:15] school with a guy named Clo and he was a [25:17] bit of a Claude, but I still call him [25:18] Clo. [25:20] >> Yeah. You know, sometimes it's uh Yeah, [25:22] sometimes I need to to change my accent. [25:25] Uh I still have my my my accent. But you [25:29] may remember, Joey, speaking of that, [25:31] like when I started with Microsoft, like [25:33] I did not really know English. Like I [25:35] was babbling like a couple of words. So [25:37] when I started I remember if like many [25:40] people on the team were like oh my god [25:41] like the new developer advocate or we [25:44] were technical evangelist or technical [25:46] developer [25:46] >> we were developer evangelists developer [25:48] evangelist that was the title that they [25:49] were using. Yeah. [25:50] >> Yeah. And oh let me go back to that [25:52] after because I kind of missed that [25:54] title but um people were like oh Fred is [25:56] shy and at the time Demir was like nope [26:00] like I'm pretty sure this guy is not [26:02] shy. He just don't know how to express [26:04] himself. which was the case and I don't [26:06] know why I'm talking about that but like [26:08] I learned English after but I was lucky [26:10] enough that I worked with a bunch of you [26:11] like everybody on the team you were [26:13] probably because most of you were in [26:15] Ontario so we're probably used to work [26:16] with Kbeekqua who like have like a [26:18] shitty English so you were really [26:20] patient with me and you helped me to [26:22] improve myself so you went well but uh I [26:26] was lucky enough because that opened the [26:27] doors to so many things after that or so [26:29] many places where they would not have [26:31] gave me the chance and Microsoft and our [26:33] team did uh I really appreciate that. [26:36] But [26:36] >> hey, hey, no problem. And besides, the [26:38] other thing is one, your English is [26:40] better than my French. [26:44] So, yeah. No, no, you were you were [26:45] ahead of me. I was going, I can't, you [26:47] know, I cannot blame I can't blame you [26:49] for that. Your your your English Yeah, [26:51] your English was better than my French. [26:52] And you know what? As myself, as a first [26:55] generation immigrant, like I was born in [26:57] the Philippines, you know, when I hear [26:59] Yeah. You you know, when I hear um and I [27:02] I I I say Yeah. I often say it a little [27:04] more crudely in a bar, but basically, [27:06] yeah, I just say, you know what, when I [27:07] hear an accent, I hear balls. It takes [27:10] it takes balls or courage or grit or [27:13] whatever you want to call it to move to [27:16] another place where you did not, you [27:18] know, it is not your first language [27:20] >> and you have to and you have to operate [27:23] in and you have to you have to learn [27:25] Yeah. And and you have to learn a [27:27] different culture and uh Yeah. It's all [27:30] it's it's it's all different. And even, [27:32] you know, even within Canada, [27:34] >> yeah, [27:35] >> you can tell when you're inside uh you [27:38] can tell when you're inside label [27:39] provence and when you're among the uh [27:43] modlay, [27:45] the provinces have different feels. By [27:47] the way, Bel Provence, that's the [27:48] reference for Quebec, the beautiful [27:50] province. And Modi Anglay, damned [27:54] English. [27:57] I need to say it's not a reflection of [27:58] what I'm thinking about the people [28:00] speaking English in Canada. If I want to [28:02] be honest though, maybe it was many many [28:05] many years ago because when you speak [28:06] only one language and how it's working [28:08] in Canada, I don't want to go in [28:09] politics but like you know there's [28:11] always the feeling that there is Quebec [28:12] and the rest of Canada because we're a [28:14] little bit like a village within the [28:16] rest of Canada like speaking French [28:18] having like a little bit of different [28:19] culture. So maybe it was what I was [28:21] thinking in the past but I was lucky [28:23] enough that you know uh obeyed the mayor [28:26] working with people like Damiier Joey [28:28] unfortunately enough I also work with [28:30] people like P uh which was uh the worst [28:34] uh seriously but [28:37] no I kind of missed I'm still talking [28:39] about that team like you know um it's [28:42] been what uh 14 years for me maybe that [28:46] I left Microsoft. Uh I like at first [28:50] when uh when John Oxley approached me [28:53] for the job, I said no two or three [28:55] times because I was more like an open [28:57] source person and Microsoft at the time, [28:59] you know, there was the Balmer era. [29:00] Microsoft was not open at all and I was [29:02] like I'm not sure I want to do that. And [29:04] uh they tricked me. Christian came in [29:06] Christian uh came in in Montreal and it [29:09] was like hey French is my first [29:10] language. We came a discussion in French [29:12] and like just a coffee and I'm like [29:14] okay. And Christian like kind of like [29:15] won me over with that discussion was [29:17] like, "Okay, maybe I can do the [29:19] interview process." And where am I going [29:21] with that? Oh yeah. And and the the only [29:23] reason why I left after a while is [29:25] because my job like they hire me to do [29:27] open source open data stuff and [29:29] interoperability. And at some point new [29:31] manager was like, "Hey, it's not what [29:32] you're going to do. You're going to do [29:33] other stuff." And I'm like, "Yeah, but [29:34] this is not what I'm good at. This is [29:36] not what I want to do." So I left. But [29:38] um I've been in many teams since and and [29:41] the team we had at the time I think it [29:43] was like a brilliant team like a really [29:44] like you know like a bunch of like [29:46] superstar like being really good at what [29:49] we're doing and we had multiple team we [29:50] had like the developer team but we also [29:52] had the IT pro team and we had like the [29:54] the the bread team and the dev team and [29:56] I feel like everybody were like really [29:59] good at their job at what they're doing [30:01] mostly everybody. I mean except Pier [30:02] again. Uh [30:04] >> and yeah very cohesive group and uh fant [30:08] you know these are people who I mean we [30:11] had uh we had uh tech days Canada. So [30:15] yeah, uh across Canada conference where [30:18] we took stuff where we took material [30:20] from the big conference, the big [30:22] Microsoft conference build, which [30:24] normally cost $2,000 to attend and we [30:27] would train up local developers to [30:29] deliver that same material that all the [30:31] big shots were delivering so that they [30:33] too could be rock stars. they too could [30:36] work on their skills and we even gave [30:38] them we even gave them presentation [30:40] training and then you know within those [30:43] uh eight or nine Canadian cities we [30:45] would only charge $200 and even then for [30:48] a lot of people especially students we [30:50] we'd let them in for free and it was it [30:53] was great and it is the kind of [30:56] community thing that I think that uh [30:59] everybody in Devril should cons yeah [31:02] everybody in Devril should consider [31:04] especially now that the definition of [31:07] developer is a lot wider [31:10] now that we've got vibe coding and uh [31:13] it's something that we need to uh it's [31:15] some it's something we need to consider. [31:16] It's a crazy it's a crazy brave new [31:18] world. [31:19] >> It is. [31:20] >> But I am so glad we had all those times [31:22] at Microsoft together. I love that. [31:24] Yeah, that team is fantastic. Uh [31:26] everybody was everybody was great to [31:29] work with. I would glad, you know, I I [31:32] would have no trouble sitting in a van [31:34] with all of you for eight hours driving [31:36] from one place to another. I mean, yeah, [31:38] it was it was fantastic. It was it was [31:40] that funny enough, I don't know if you [31:42] remember Tony. Uh she was the uh um she [31:46] was uh assistant for what's what was his [31:49] name? Maria Antonella. She was at the [31:53] Missoga office. So, I was in Toronto [31:54] last week. Uh we went for a coffee. So, [31:58] fantastic. See each other. So I try to [32:00] keep in touch with some people but I [32:02] don't have the chance to meet most of [32:03] the uh approvers team once in a while. [32:06] Uh I have a question for you. Will uh [32:08] editor AI be the developer advocate for [32:12] five coding agents? [32:15] Uh I don't know another um there will [32:19] there might be another uh some AIS who [32:22] will take on some of the jobs or some of [32:25] the tasks not jobs tasks that devril [32:28] people [32:30] >> will take on for instance um probably [32:33] doing things like um [32:36] repeating a message across social media [32:38] maybe converting uh converting uh [32:42] converting documentation [32:44] converting uh converting content that we [32:47] have to create from one format to [32:48] another like maybe especially extra you [32:51] know what take this video or [32:52] presentation I did and turn it into an [32:54] article [32:56] >> but I think in the end um and I hope I'm [33:00] right about this I think the human [33:02] element talking developer uh talking [33:05] developer to developer making that [33:07] connection building those relationships [33:10] uh that's uh that is still something [33:13] that you're going to need a human [33:15] developer relations person for I think [33:21] >> that you said that because I was like [33:23] ready to fight with you depending on [33:25] your answer. I it's funny I was talking [33:27] with a colleague exactly about your two [33:30] parts answers like one like it can be [33:34] helpful with some task uh it can help us [33:37] to amplify what we're trying to do and [33:39] maybe it's a little bit like pretentious [33:42] for for me to do to say that but like [33:44] you just said it so I guess it's not the [33:46] case or maybe we're both pretentious I [33:47] don't know but I think I think the job [33:49] that we do [33:51] >> will even be more important because [33:54] we're slowly removing the human for so [33:56] many process we've been doing that for [33:57] years but now with AI it's even more [33:59] that and it does not resonate with most [34:02] people and our job even if it's it's a [34:06] technical job even if I still consider [34:07] myself a developer even if I'm a [34:09] developer right advocate right now I [34:11] still consider myself a developer my job [34:13] was really never about the tech my job [34:16] was always about the human and I use the [34:18] tech to connect with the human and I use [34:20] the tech to help human like be [34:23] successful and I hope they're going to [34:24] be successful with my up because you [34:26] know I want my company to be successful [34:28] and get my paycheck let's be honest but [34:31] >> the why that job is necessary is because [34:35] how developers are it's because how we [34:37] can connect with developers because the [34:38] thing that they like because the thing [34:40] that they dislike it needs a specific [34:41] approach and a human approach so again [34:44] maybe I'm delusional about that and I [34:46] hope I'm not uh but I'm pretty sure that [34:49] like yeah we won't be able to replace [34:52] our job or at least not all the job part [34:55] of the task as you said maybe that's [34:56] going to help us to amplify but I firmly [34:59] believe and I hope also that uh that job [35:02] will still be really important uh [35:04] because it was always about the human [35:06] connection. [35:07] >> Yeah. And the other thing is that the [35:10] definition of who who get who gets [35:12] counted as a developer is now a bigger [35:14] pool. Like before it was somebody who at [35:17] least [35:18] >> understood at least one programming [35:20] language and maybe had to understand [35:23] some of the underlying technology [35:25] whereas now it's somebody who has a [35:28] problem they want to solve and they have [35:30] an idea of how to solve it. uh you know [35:34] cuz I'm sure there are a lot of people [35:35] who have you know dreamed oh I wish you [35:38] know I wish this thing existed and now [35:41] and now that you can in plain language [35:44] explain what it is and have an AI [35:48] if not maybe build a perfect version of [35:50] the application build a prototype or bu [35:53] you know build a something that works [35:56] well enough to do the job like I I I I [35:59] envision you know at some point people [36:01] will [36:02] vibe coding, just little things to help [36:04] them through their day that are only [36:06] useful to them, but [36:09] >> saves them some saves them some time, [36:11] saves them some effort every day. It [36:13] makes their life easier every day. Uh [36:16] like, you know, like people talking to [36:18] the Star Trek computer and asking for a [36:21] thing and they get they get this piece, [36:22] they get this application that helps [36:24] them. I see that as I see that that uh [36:28] yeah we are now talking we're now [36:30] talking to a larger audience and we will [36:33] probably need to [36:35] uh adjust our practice as developer [36:38] advocates to uh to this to this new [36:41] audience who may necess not necessarily [36:43] have learned programming or technology. [36:45] I just think of vibe coding as just the [36:47] next layer of abstraction. In the [36:50] beginning if you wanted to solve a um in [36:53] the beginning you had to solve a problem [36:54] entirely by hardware and then after that [36:57] yeah after that you you had to do it in [37:00] assembly language and then after that [37:02] you know it got better and people [37:04] started using higher level languages and [37:07] I remember uh I remember people saying [37:09] oh no no you will always need to use [37:11] assembly language uh this higher level [37:13] language stuff is for amateurs [37:15] >> you know and it it and it changes now we [37:18] just have an extra layer. As far as I'm [37:21] concerned, prompting is programming. [37:23] It's just the next layer of abstraction [37:25] up. [37:26] >> Yeah, I agree. And and I mean I I [37:29] understand where the comments is from. [37:32] So basically the job of the future that [37:33] won't be replaced by I is being a [37:35] Devril. I don't think it's necessarily [37:38] true. I hope it's true. I firmly believe [37:40] in the value of Devril. But at the same [37:42] time right now um so many people are [37:46] losing their jobs and the reason or the [37:49] the reason that are put in place are AI [37:52] but if we want to be honest right now we [37:54] didn't reach a point where AI really [37:56] replace people or or help you to be 10x [37:59] more productive it's on the premises [38:01] that at some point AI will give you that [38:05] possibility of producing more and or [38:07] just like a reason for like shitty [38:10] people to lay people off. So, we're not [38:13] at the point yet, I think, even if a lot [38:15] of people has AI as a reason where they [38:17] they lose their job, I don't think it's [38:19] a real reason most of the time. So, who [38:22] knows? Uh like I have lost my job at [38:26] companies even preai because um like [38:29] they thought that my job was something [38:31] else closer to a salesperson. Even when [38:33] we talked about it, they realized it was [38:35] not the case and they didn't see the [38:36] value. So, they let me go. So AI or not, [38:39] there's always going to be people that [38:40] won't see value in what we do and or [38:43] will want to get more money or cut cost [38:45] somewhere and will be the ones going to [38:48] have to being let go. Maybe at some [38:51] point some people will say like you know [38:53] um I'm pretty sure people in customer [38:55] support were like hey we will never be [38:57] replaced because when you are at the [38:59] point when you need to talk to customer [39:00] support it's because you need to talk to [39:01] a real person. you didn't find the [39:03] information on the docs on the website [39:04] on the manual of whatever you have [39:06] problem with and now it's a lot of butt [39:08] that helps you does that make the [39:10] experience better most of the time from [39:13] my personal experience no I always try [39:15] to talk to a real person because like [39:17] that that butt is most of the time not [39:19] able to answer my question because if I [39:20] reach that point it's because I tried [39:22] everything and I need to talk to a real [39:24] person so maybe some people will replace [39:26] developer relation with AI a bot or LLM [39:29] that will do most of what we you will [39:32] that be good maybe. Would that be good [39:34] enough? Maybe too. But yeah, we know we [39:38] we just don't know. I don't want to say [39:39] that like don't don't quote and say like [39:40] hey Joey and Fred in like April 9 in [39:43] 2026 said that like their job will never [39:46] be replaced and like a year after [39:49] >> that doesn't exist. But I think the [39:51] human job [39:54] >> something like we do is going to be a [39:55] little more difficult to replace. But [39:58] again, maybe we're just dreaming because [40:00] this is what we do and this is what we [40:01] love to do and this is like I'm pretty [40:03] sure [40:04] >> most developer were like we will never [40:06] be replaced because you need specific [40:07] skills to be able to build application [40:09] and now right now we're like not [40:11] replacing but like slowly changing how [40:13] we code. So [40:16] >> I don't know. [40:16] >> Yeah man. Yeah. Yeah. This is a big [40:19] level of change on you know as big as [40:22] well actually probably bigger than the [40:24] industrial revolution in the end. And I [40:27] kind of wonder what happened you know [40:28] what happened to the art how how did the [40:32] artisans react when you know a lot of [40:34] the work was being done by machine and [40:36] initially done by machine very poorly [40:39] and you know that's you know and we have [40:41] that's where we get the word sabotage [40:43] from actually it's that French workers [40:45] throwing their wooden shoes into the [40:47] machinery they're sabo so yeah sabotage [40:50] that's where that's where it came from [40:52] that I know it was coming from French [40:55] like but I don't know because they're [40:56] really good at at you know going in the [40:59] street and just trying to change things [41:01] like the French people like French from [41:03] France they're really good at doing that [41:04] but I don't know what's coming from [41:05] there yeah [41:06] >> yeah that's where it comes from [41:09] >> my was like sorry too late already vibe [41:11] wrote an article and quote what we said [41:14] about the I like that I like that and um [41:18] we have another comment from uh [41:23] and I'm sorry I'm probably struggle say [41:25] your um your name uh for Deell [41:28] specifically sometimes we don't lose [41:29] because of AI but sometimes when the [41:31] role is not understood correctly [41:33] >> yes that is the story of my life Joey [41:36] please go [41:36] >> that's oh yeah that's the challenge I [41:38] guess part of it is you know they're [41:40] just going well it's sort of it's [41:42] developer marketing [41:44] >> or you're part of the marketing [41:45] department or um I I had one uh I had [41:51] one interview for a deell position where [41:53] I was ready with demos post and they [41:56] said, "Actually, we standardize on this [41:58] thing. Uh, pretend I'm a large customer [42:02] and you're trying to convince me to [42:05] you're trying to convince me to use our [42:07] particular system." And I was just [42:09] going, "Wait, hold it. Uh, I've done [42:11] sales before, but I can't do it on the [42:14] fly. I have no sales material. I have no [42:16] idea. I have no idea of the needs of [42:19] this particular hypothetical customer [42:21] that you're coming up with. I don't know [42:23] the details of all the products. I was [42:26] focused on a particular aspect of it. So [42:29] yeah, it does happen. I mean in the end [42:32] in the end part of it is yeah a a [42:35] company wants to make a a company wants [42:37] to make money and sometimes uh people in [42:41] management are just going you know what [42:42] the developer Yeah the developer's job [42:45] the de a developer uh advocates job is [42:49] to just uh be a techier salesman. Yeah. [42:54] >> And and that's it, [42:56] >> you know. Uh [42:57] >> and and and we need people like that, [42:59] but it's not my definition of developer [43:01] advocate. It's not my definition of [43:03] developer relation. So yeah, sometimes [43:06] it doesn't work and and sometime there's [43:08] like what I've seen too is [43:09] misunderstanding of like the nature of [43:11] the role where like we have discussion [43:12] during the interview and I was like [43:14] okay, I think we understand each other [43:15] because I'm really clear about and I [43:17] don't have the only truth. I'm just [43:19] clear about what myself I like to do [43:21] when it comes to Devil and how I see [43:23] Deell and we explain and we discuss and [43:26] I start the job and I'm like, "Oh, but [43:28] like I thought you were like more like a [43:31] salesperson." I'm like, "No, no, I just [43:33] told you like this is not what I do." [43:35] >> So, yeah. Anyway, I mean, we help drive [43:38] sales and eventually everybody does [43:41] eventually everybody does sales, but [43:43] it's not as developer advocates, it's [43:45] not our it it's not our primary job. [43:48] >> Exactly. I always say that um if I do my [43:52] job well, a positive side effect is that [43:56] I will fill the top of the funnel. I [43:58] will probably help the self-esteem. I [44:01] will help people at every level. But if [44:03] my job start to be sure that people's [44:06] going to give us money or be sure [44:07] they're going to be users, it becomes [44:10] like a it becomes a sales role. So, and [44:13] this is not something that I want to do. [44:14] So, uh we're going to take last question [44:16] because we can we could talk forever and [44:18] I love doing that, but I try to keep the [44:20] show a little more like around like 45 [44:22] minutes an hour and um I will take the [44:25] last question. So there's uh Nightfly Ed [44:28] was Isn't that the definition of a [44:30] pre-sales engineer role? Uh you're [44:35] talking I'm not sure actually. Are you [44:37] talking about like what we were talking [44:38] about developer relation or more like [44:42] like the things we said were not [44:44] developer relation? Yeah, I'm not sure I [44:45] understand. Sorry the question. Maybe [44:47] Joey, do you know? [44:49] >> Well, uh [44:51] there there there's some overlap. Yeah, [44:53] there there there's some overlap. I [44:55] think the uh I I I think a developer [44:58] advocate is reaching out a little a [45:02] little wider and just uh because [45:05] developer advocates also are talking to [45:07] existing developers and exist customers [45:10] who are already there uh to maintain the [45:14] rel uh maintain the relationship uh [45:17] alert the alert the current user base of [45:19] new developments or changes or [45:22] announcements or things like that. So [45:24] it's a little it's a little wider than [45:26] uh it's a little wider than the [45:28] pre-sales. I have in many organizations [45:31] sales engineering or pre-sales [45:33] engineering uh [45:36] work in a work in a different department [45:38] but I have I have paired up with them on [45:42] customer meetings and calls to provide a [45:44] little more uh provide a little more [45:46] background [45:47] >> because uh pre-sale uh pre uh sales [45:50] engineering in general are a little more [45:52] driven by commission and they are [45:53] measured more by sales versus uh [45:56] developer advocates or developer [45:58] relation. were measured more by um uh [46:02] things like satisfaction thing uh [46:04] satisfaction numbers some uh enga and [46:08] various engagement metrics and it is a [46:11] tricky thing to measure [46:13] >> it is it is because businesses don't [46:15] always speak that way what they want to [46:17] see is the amount of dollar the [46:19] conversion and stuff but as you said and [46:21] I think this is what nightfly was asking [46:23] is like the the last thing that we said [46:25] that we're not really deil but some [46:27] companies ask us to do is more like a [46:30] pre-sales engineers when from my point [46:32] of view uh I'm going to talk to you uh [46:35] even if you don't give us money I'm [46:36] going to talk to you even if you don't [46:38] plan to give us money I'm going to talk [46:39] to you even if you don't care about my [46:41] product I'm going to try to help you if [46:43] I can because what I'm doing is building [46:45] relation if I want to be honest [46:47] business-wise I hope that like the time [46:49] that I help you you remember that and at [46:51] some point in your career in the next [46:53] project if you need my solution you may [46:56] remember me as the guy was nice and help [46:58] you. I'm going to do it because I feel [47:00] like a nice person. But it's also a [47:02] little bit part of the job. It's the [47:03] medium to long-term type event pack you [47:05] have when you build those kind of [47:07] relation with people. So [47:09] >> yeah. [47:11] >> Anyway, uh from what you have on your [47:15] screen behind your head, I feel like we [47:18] have like the devil show. [47:20] >> It's going to have an exclusivity right [47:22] now. [47:23] >> An announcement. Yes. This is where I'm [47:25] publicly saying it for the first time [47:27] here on the Devril show. Yes, I Joey [47:30] Davilla have landed a job. It is as a [47:33] senior developer advocate for Net [47:36] Foundry. And Net Foundry are the people [47:39] who make an open source project called [47:41] Open ZD. And yes, that [47:46] >> congratulations [47:48] to Sorry, go ahead. [47:49] >> Oh, no, no, go ahead. Go ahead. Oh to [47:52] say congratulation to to both of you. [47:54] Congratulation to you for landing a job. [47:57] As you said it was a little more like [47:59] lenty to like the market was difficult. [48:02] I was looking for a job last year. It [48:03] was like a different than like any other [48:06] time that I was looking for a job. Uh so [48:08] congratulation to you for the new job. [48:11] Congratulation to Net Foundry because [48:13] you find one of the most amazing person. [48:16] Look at that guy. He's on the devil show [48:18] today. He did not even start the work [48:20] yet. is already doing stuff, already [48:23] talking about the company, already [48:25] talking about one of your product. [48:28] Why? Just because he is passionate, he's [48:30] good at what he's doing. Um, so if you [48:32] can deal with his personality, you're [48:34] you're good. [48:36] >> Yeah, exactly. Hopefully, they can put [48:38] up with me for a while. But [48:40] >> I mean, this is what I tell people the [48:42] same thing for me. Like, if if you can [48:44] get used to me as a person, [48:47] >> I think we're going to be a great team [48:48] and I can I think you're going to be [48:49] happy. Not everybody is able to do that, [48:51] but uh no, I think it's going to be [48:53] good. Uh open uh Clint says it'll fit [48:56] right in. [48:57] >> But yeah, open Yeah, open ziti. So yeah, [49:00] ziti as in the noodle, but really [49:02] because it's a play on Z, the letters [49:06] ZT, zero trust. So Oh. [49:09] >> Oh, you know what? I thought that that [49:12] that exact I did not make that [49:13] connection myself. [49:15] >> No, neither at all. Not at all. But I [49:17] love it. I love it. And maybe it's [49:20] because we're Canadian and we think of [49:21] the last letter of the alphabet as zed. [49:24] >> That's true. I don't know. But yeah, but [49:26] yeah, ZT zero trust. And basically what [49:30] it is is it's a fantastic way I wish I'd [49:33] known about this earlier. It's a great [49:35] way to protect your networks. And the [49:38] reason is generally and I remember [49:40] working at Open Cola. We had we hired [49:43] somebody who submitted his resume by [49:47] this is in 2000. Okay. He scanned our [49:50] Windows network and then used it to [49:53] insert a um insert his resume in the [49:59] CEO's home directory. [50:02] >> I mean, give that person a job first. [50:04] Yeah. [50:05] >> Oh, yeah. As soon as that happened, I'm [50:06] just going, we got to hire that guy. [50:09] >> This this is our [50:11] >> But yeah, that's the thing is that the [50:13] problem is we've got networks are [50:15] typically listening uh they're always [50:18] listening on an open port because that's [50:20] how you connect with them. But the [50:21] problem is that's where that's where the [50:24] vulnerability lies. But what if your [50:27] network was dark by default? And that's [50:29] the idea behind Open Zi. It is an [50:31] open-source project. You do not need to [50:33] buy anything from Net Foundry to use it. [50:36] The idea is that you go to Net Foundry [50:39] for the hosted version where they take [50:41] care of it and they manage it and you [50:43] build your application using this open [50:46] ZD. It's a network overlay. So it's [50:48] basically kind of a network on top of [50:51] your network and you communicate with [50:53] that network and the only way to reach [50:55] that network actually is to have the [50:58] correct cryptographic ID. [51:00] >> Oh, okay. no matter what. So, uh, what [51:04] I'm going to do, uh, please I know you [51:06] asked for a demo and this is this is [51:08] hilarious. So, I don't work I don't [51:09] start there till the 20th. I have not [51:11] received any documentation. They've been [51:14] busy. They've got they they have an all [51:16] hands they've got all hands and planning [51:18] meetings next week uh next week. So, [51:20] they're a bit busy to deal with the new [51:23] guy. Uh, you know, they uh but I figured [51:25] I I'll do some research on my own and [51:28] write uh write something. So yeah, I'm [51:31] sure. Is my screen visible? [51:32] >> Yes. Yes. [51:33] >> There we go. So I've got I've got a [51:35] server running right now. It is running [51:38] uh it is running on open it is running [51:40] on open ziti and I'm going to call up a [51:43] plain old client right now. So I'm just [51:46] going to go I wrote a really this simple [51:48] server just spits out JSON if you can [51:51] access it. Otherwise uh otherwise you [51:55] can't access access it at all. [51:58] I have a plain Python client. I'll show [52:00] you the code in just a moment, but all [52:02] it does is it sends a HTTP get request. [52:05] Very simple. [52:07] I try to access the system just using [52:10] plain old HTTP request. And of course, I [52:12] get connection refused. No TCP port is [52:16] listening. And in fact, if I uh this [52:20] thing is serving on, you can see here [52:22] I'm highlighting it localhost 8080. [52:26] Let me uh let me end map localhost. [52:30] All the ports are listed there. Notice [52:32] that port 8080 is completely missing. [52:35] >> Yeah, [52:36] >> it is not there. You cannot break into a [52:39] port that you can't even you can't even [52:41] see. That's the idea. So, let me run the [52:45] other client. [52:47] So, once again, uh pythonclient [52:50] ziti and I will show you the code. Once [52:53] again, this is simply sending an HTTPS [52:56] get request, but this one has requests [53:00] monkey patched to use an open ZD object [53:03] which contains the necessary uh contains [53:07] the necessary uh cryptographic [53:08] credentials [53:10] which allows me to access the server and [53:14] get the message that it delivers. Hello [53:16] from the open ZD protected server. So, [53:19] the only way once again, the only way to [53:21] access this is to use, let me see if I [53:25] can, [53:27] let's see, client ZD. Here we go. Once [53:30] again, I'm just using [53:34] plain old [53:36] HTTP requests, the Python uh the Python [53:39] library. The only difference is prior to [53:41] making that request, [53:43] >> okay, [53:44] >> I'm using the open ZD object to monkey [53:46] patch the requests method. And basically [53:49] that's what allows me to connect to what [53:52] is a um basically it's a combination [53:55] controller and router that handles all [53:58] the messaging between a a ZD protected [54:02] server and a ZD enabled client. So uh [54:06] and only a ZD enabled client can [54:08] communicate with a ZD enabled server and [54:12] o and that is when they can see it can [54:15] see the ports that have been opened and [54:17] that guarantees that of course uh you [54:19] can't get uh you you can't you can't [54:22] hack what you can't even access or see. [54:25] So that's the whole that's the whole [54:27] idea behind it. And uh right now Net [54:30] Foundry is in the middle of they've just [54:32] released a whole bunch of stuff. There [54:34] is a uh there's an open ZD system for [54:36] LLMs and there's an open ZD for MCP [54:39] servers and there's going to be more [54:41] there's going to be more stuff for AI [54:43] systems because AI opens a giant attack [54:46] surface uh to the rest of the world. So [54:50] you'd better lock down your network. So [54:52] that's what uh that's what Net Foundry [54:54] is doing. Uh there are a lot of large US [54:57] banks that already have that are using [55:00] open ziti or net foundry services as are [55:02] a bunch of companies including I was [55:04] just looking through the list including [55:05] the German company Zemens and a whole [55:08] bunch of people who really want their [55:09] networks locked down. So that's what [55:11] this is all about. Uh the um they need a [55:15] little more publicity. They need a [55:17] certified yapper to make the noise for [55:19] them. And that is uh that's what I'm [55:22] going to be doing. And uh I plan to do [55:25] all kinds of uh do all kinds of things [55:27] including presentations and articles and [55:31] and basically um helping helping [55:34] developers whether they are seasoned uh [55:37] seasoned programmers who've been working [55:39] programming languages for the past 20 [55:40] years or they're vibe coders. I'm going [55:43] to help them use Open ZD and net and of [55:46] course the hosted version net foundry. [55:49] >> That's that's amazing and and I I will [55:51] try that first. Uh, and I don't say that [55:54] just to be nice. Uh, because I usually [55:56] don't say that after Debo, but like this [55:58] is really interesting to me. Uh, they [56:00] found the right person, but I have a [56:02] huge bias toward my friend here. Uh, but [56:05] I I know it's not really a bias. It's [56:07] true. Uh, the proof is Clint was like, [56:09] "Hey, uh, application bed, zero trust, [56:12] example, and action. Very nice. Love an [56:14] overachiever. I told you he did not even [56:17] start the job. That he's already doing [56:19] his job. He didn't get a paycheck yet. [56:21] that he's already doing that job. So [56:22] that's amazing. And uh I think it's even [56:25] more important right now to talk about [56:27] security as you said like because of AI. [56:30] Um there's a lot of people and I'm not [56:32] saying that in a um a cynical or or to [56:36] to be negative about people but there's [56:38] a lot of people that do not exactly know [56:39] what they're doing which end ups with a [56:41] lot of application that are not secure. [56:43] I mean even as developers often we don't [56:46] know what we're doing. [56:47] >> We we get wrong. [56:48] >> We get wrong. We create bugs and and I [56:51] used to work for a small part of of my [56:53] devro life in the in security space and [56:56] uh when I was asking developers like do [56:58] you care about security the answer was [57:00] yes and when I was asking them what are [57:02] you doing to secure your application or [57:04] fro or whatever the answer was always [57:06] like um um um people were like yeah okay [57:11] so I think it's important to talk it was [57:13] always important to talk about it and [57:15] giving a solution that from my point of [57:17] view seems really uh simple to use. Not [57:21] that the solution is simple, but like [57:22] simple to use. I think it does a lot of [57:24] complex stuff, but like it seems like [57:26] it's quite straightforward to use. I [57:28] think it's great. So, yeah, like any [57:29] good product, uh you need to have a [57:31] voice out there that can talk to [57:33] developers, the same language, and that [57:35] can show the benefits. So, anyway, uh [57:37] congrats again on the job. Thanks for [57:39] the demo. Anything else you want to add [57:41] about uh Open CD or uh Net Foundry? [57:45] >> Well, basically, I'm still learning. I I [57:48] I'm still in the learning phase, but uh [57:50] you know what? Uh this quick message uh [57:53] quick quick message to uh Dave, my boss, [57:55] the CTO. Uh it worked. [57:59] I cobbled it together last night and it [58:01] worked. [58:03] >> That's awesome. That's awesome. [58:04] >> And I've got And I'm gonna have to turn [58:06] I'm gonna have to turn this into an [58:07] article. [58:08] >> Yeah. Yeah. Know, please do. [58:10] >> And and a demo. So this is the Python uh [58:14] this is the Python version. I'm going to [58:15] have to work on this the C version and [58:18] the Go version. Actually, this is a good [58:20] chance for me to sharpen my Golang uh [58:23] skills. So, yeah, I'm looking great. [58:25] Yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. [58:28] Uh it's a small company. Yeah, 65 [58:30] people. [58:31] >> Speaking of David, I don't know if it's [58:34] that David, but there is a David Hart [58:36] here. [58:39] >> That's that's my boss, Dave Hart. So, [58:41] >> CTO uh co-founder of Net Foundry and [58:44] Open CDN, [58:46] >> my friend, I don't know if you were [58:47] listening before, I'm gonna say it [58:49] again. Uh you hired the right person to [58:52] do the job. You are in good hands with [58:55] Joey. He is one of the top developer [58:57] advocate out there. So, uh [58:59] congratulation to you uh for hiring [59:01] Joey. Uh, I'm saying that obviously [59:04] Joey's a friend, so maybe you don't [59:05] trust what I say, but I've seen a lot of [59:07] great and a lot of not so great [59:09] developer advocates and and Joy's on the [59:11] top uh of the the [59:14] >> M. Thank you, Fred. You're you're way [59:16] too kind. Thank you. [59:18] >> So, uh, thanks for being on the show. [59:21] Uh, that was it was I know it was going [59:24] to be great to have you on the show. Um, [59:27] you know, we've known another for a [59:30] while. We don't always have the chance [59:32] to spend time together since we don't [59:33] work together anymore. I think the last [59:35] time we met and it was kind of like in [59:37] and out. Was it in Texas for Civo Nate? [59:40] I think [59:41] >> it was Civo Nate. It was here in Tampa. [59:43] >> And Tampa. Oh, that was in Tampa. [59:45] >> Yeah, it was here in Tampa. But you know [59:46] what? Uh I I I need to head up to [59:49] Montreal again. And Nitro wants to see [59:51] Montreal again. We want to eat uh you [59:53] know, we want to go to G M and uh and [59:57] have duck in a duck in a can. [60:00] Let me know. Let me know if you're [60:02] koshon. We also want to go to ped koson. [60:04] >> Yeah. Yeah. Probably you want to go [60:05] there. Yeah. No, no. Let me know when [60:07] you're in town. And uh maybe the new job [60:10] will bring you also to do more [60:12] conferences. So [60:14] >> what happened with most of my developer [60:16] advocate colleagues is that uh we see [60:18] each other at different conferences. [60:20] Hopefully that's going to be the case. [60:21] And hopefully [60:23] >> I mean we will go drinking in Brooklyn. [60:26] >> I think so. I mean, John or Swift, if [60:29] you're watching, uh, De Ro right now, [60:32] watching the recording, they're the one [60:33] organizing Devil Con in New York. [60:37] >> After what you've seen, you don't have [60:38] the choice to accept our panel. On top [60:40] of that, it's not just the two of us. [60:42] You have Chris and you have Er, amazing [60:45] human. [60:45] >> That's going to be a real show. I think [60:48] we have, you know, we have the other [60:49] thing we have to do is we have to go to [60:50] New York City's Lower East Side, the [60:53] super hipster district, and uh there's [60:56] the there's a restaurant there called [60:58] Putoutin. [60:59] >> Okay. [61:00] >> And they claim to make Putin. And I want [61:04] to see I've never been and I want to see [61:06] if these New Yorkers can make Putin. I [61:09] know that uh there's a place called uh [61:11] there's a Putin place in Disney World in [61:14] Orlando. [61:15] >> Oh, yeah. [61:18] I mean, I've had I've had poutine in [61:20] many places outside of Quebec or Canada, [61:23] and most of them. [61:26] Yeah. [61:27] >> Yeah. Maybe New York. It's close enough. [61:30] I mean, [61:30] >> it's close enough. Although, you know [61:31] what? There's an there there's a former [61:33] Montrealer here in the Tampa Bay area, [61:36] and he he has a restaurant. He has a [61:38] chain of restaurants called Frenchies, [61:41] >> and his poutine's Okay. [61:42] >> Okay. Good. Good. So, yeah, let's try [61:44] this in New York. Uh yeah, even if we [61:46] don't do the panel, uh the conference [61:48] should be nice being with our peer. It's [61:50] the only developer relations conference [61:52] out there. Actually, I should probably [61:55] uh share the link with folks. If you do [61:57] not know about the conference, maybe [61:59] it's not close to you, [62:01] >> but uh it's uh let me create a banner [62:03] here because I think it's worth to [62:05] promote that event. Uh it's a conference [62:07] that happened uh many many years ago, [62:09] different places in the world uh for [62:11] reasons. It did not happen for the last [62:13] couple of years but two or three years [62:14] ago uh the lovely folks being uh behind [62:18] uh MLH uh major league hacking uh [62:21] decided to start to organizing in [62:23] organize it in New York. So it's going [62:24] to be the third edition. I was unlucky [62:27] enough that I was not able to be there [62:28] for different reason than the last two. [62:30] Uh but this year I mean my ticket is [62:33] paid. Uh I submit a panel. Uh it like [62:37] the timing is good. So unless things [62:39] happen again, I should be there. Uh but [62:41] again it's the only conference that [62:44] really pertain to us doing their real so [62:46] if you're developer advocate you need to [62:48] be there great content but also just the [62:51] the number of people the great people [62:53] that are going to be there [62:54] >> fantastic speakers yeah go look on their [62:57] YouTube channel uh of past presentations [62:59] it is f it's fantastic and the other [63:02] thing is I am looking forward to waving [63:04] the net foundry flag there [63:06] >> and open zd and yeah may have to yeah [63:09] may have to [63:10] >> may have to order some ziti and just [63:12] serve it to people. There's a there's a [63:13] whole noodle theme in [63:16] with open ziti and net foundry. Yeah, [63:19] >> there is definitely something you can do [63:20] there. So, uh thanks again for being on [63:22] the show. Uh any last word you want to [63:25] end the show with? Anything? [63:29] >> Well, uh you you know what? Uh basically [63:33] the best way [63:36] I'm just making this off the top of my [63:37] head right now. The best way to deal [63:38] with artificial intelligence is with [63:40] real humanity. [63:42] How about that? [63:44] I cannot add anything after that. So on [63:48] that note, thanks again Joey. Thanks for [63:50] the people who watch live. I always like [63:52] to have comments and question. That's [63:53] always that that is why I do a live [63:55] stream. If not, I would do a podcast a [63:57] video podcast. Uh I like to have it uh [64:00] live. Uh lovely episode. Thanks for the [64:03] great feedback. Your quote, Joey, very [64:06] very deep. [64:08] Love it. Uh, love it. Def love that. [64:10] David, thumbs up. So, uh, thanks again [64:13] for everyone who watch us live and, uh, [64:15] thanks for, uh, everyone also who's [64:18] going to watch the recording. And I'm [64:20] going to be back in the next, uh, [64:22] Devrell show. I should really like know [64:25] those kind of things. But I think I have [64:27] one exactly uh, scheduled in two weeks [64:30] actually. Yes. So, I'm starting to do [64:32] these a little more often and trying to [64:34] fit them within my travel. And I'm also [64:36] excited about my next guest. So that's [64:38] gonna be Phil. I'm gonna screw up his [64:40] last name. Legator. Uh well known in [64:43] Deel. Uh so Phil's gonna be on my show [64:45] in two weeks. So have a good rest of the [64:48] day everyone. [64:49] >> All right. [64:49] >> See you soon. [64:50] >> Thanks everybody.  📄 **Full text:** ![[Full Document Contents/Articles/Devrelshow Episode 45 - Joey De Villa.md|Devrelshow Episode 45 - Joey De Villa by YouTube]] ## Highlights - there are a lot of there are a lot of mini conferences happening all over the place. And last night uh we were on we were on a boat that went around the harbor in Tampa for dinner and uh just meeting up with the local techies and some investors um people on the money side of technology who I don't always see all the time. I tend to talk to developers more than uh more than people on the money side but I but you know you end up doing that anyways. And then uh ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kp6brnsgw6246fka643kght2)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - AI. I'm hiding from Terminators. Yeah, you know why. Yay. Hey. Cuz of AI. Cuz of AI. Cuz of AI. I love it. I love it so much. Also, like it's not confirmed yet. We just submit uh a talk a panel. But uh speaking about Joan stage, speaking about me, speaking about Joey playing the accordion, um hopefully uh our panel is going to be ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kp6brnszaczw4vks6xcvkcs6)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - We work together at Microsoft. Maybe we can talk a little more about that, but maybe maybe there are people living under a rock who do not know the accordion guy. So, like tell tell people like who are you? >> Lots of people who don't know me. Well, anyways, I'm Joey Dilla and I have largely been uh developer evangelist, developer advocate, devril person, whatever, whatever you want to call it. And I have been doing it for some time. I accidentally became uh a developer ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kp6brntecj9879g2d71xynkq)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - I returned to Toronto, they said, "You're now doing developer relations." And since then, uh I've been doing a lot of it. I did it at uh I did it at two cows. A lot of people think think of two cows as shareware but touc actually provide two cows real money makers providing services like domain name registration and other capabilities to hosting services. That's really where they make their money. So I was helping uh developers at these hosting services ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kp6brnv29kjdnb3rft9a0rgh)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - like when I started with Microsoft, like I did not really know English. Like I was babbling like a couple of words. So when I started I remember if like many people on the team were like oh my god like the new developer advocate or we were technical evangelist or technical developer >> we were developer evangelists developer evangelist that was the title that they were using. Yeah. >> Yeah. And oh let me go back to that after because I kind of missed that title but um people were like oh Fred is shy and at the time Demir was like nope ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kp6brnywxgd6hae83bgkka8d)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - Microsoft was not open at all and I was like I'm not sure I want to do that. And uh they tricked me. Christian came in Christian uh came in in Montreal and it was like hey French is my first language. We came a discussion in French and like just a coffee and I'm like okay. And Christian like kind of like won me over with that discussion was like, "Okay, maybe I can do the interview process." And where am I going with that? Oh yeah. And and the the only reason why I left after a while is because my job like they hire me to do open source open data stuff and interoperability. And at some point new ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kp6brp167bzvb712ycm5t2mf)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - everybody in Devril should consider especially now that the definition of developer is a lot wider now that we've got vibe coding and uh it's something that we need to uh it's some it's something we need to consider. It's a crazy it's a crazy brave new world. >> It is. >> But I am so glad we had all those times at Microsoft together. I love that. Yeah, that team is fantastic. Uh everybody was everybody was great to work with. I would glad, you know, I I ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kp6brp8z0h5v7tmnyt4kydfe)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - and basically um helping helping developers whether they are seasoned uh seasoned programmers who've been working programming languages for the past 20 years or they're vibe coders. I'm going to help them use Open ZD and net and of course the hosted version net foundry. >> That's that's amazing and and I I will try that first. Uh, and I don't say that just to be nice. Uh, because I usually don't say that after Debo, but like this is really interesting to me. Uh, they ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kp6brprp3ve44j24g7acq1e7)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - voice out there that can talk to developers, the same language, and that can show the benefits. So, anyway, uh congrats again on the job. Thanks for the demo. Anything else you want to add about uh Open CD or uh Net Foundry? >> Well, basically, I'm still learning. I I I'm still in the learning phase, but uh you know what? Uh this quick message uh quick quick message to uh Dave, my boss, the CTO. Uh it worked. I cobbled it together last night and it ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kp6brq0xc0gcrhkxzq17kqxs)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - Joey. Uh, I'm saying that obviously Joey's a friend, so maybe you don't trust what I say, but I've seen a lot of great and a lot of not so great developer advocates and and Joy's on the top uh of the the >> M. Thank you, Fred. You're you're way too kind. Thank you. >> So, uh, thanks for being on the show. Uh, that was it was I know it was going to be great to have you on the show. Um, you know, we've known another for a ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kp6brq6xry47q33m9tn7resf)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted