EP106 Building Biz in WP With Mark Szymanski

EP106 Building Biz in WP With Mark Szymanski ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/UYHpKgarLRs/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [EP106 Building Biz in WP With Mark Szymanski](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYHpKgarLRs) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: #wordpress #business #freelance #pagebuilders #community #entrepreneurship #content-creation > author: Kurt Steinke > source: Manano Nomas Podcast > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYHpKgarLRs > date created: 2025-01-03 17:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: EP106 Building Biz in WP with Mark Szymanski >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Transition from freelancer to agency model — requires systematic delegation #business-growth - [H2] Evaluate echo chamber concerns in WordPress community — consider diversity and inclusion strategies #community-development - [H3] Focus on profitable specializations vs. trying every tool — develop service blueprints #business-optimization ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [[#📝 Summary]] - [[#📖 Main Content]] - [[#🗒️ Notes]] - [[#📚 References]] - [[#🗣️ Paraphrase]] - [[#📰 Newsletter]] - [[#✅ Action Items]] - [[#🧪 Hypotheses]] - [[#📊 Methodology]] - [[#❓ Questions]] - [[#🔮 Future Research]] - [[#💡 Implications]] - [[#🧠 Learning Styles Assessment]] - [[#📊 Accessibility Assessment]] - [[#🌍 DEIB Assessment]] - [[#✅ Logical Validity]] - [[#🛡️ DARVO Analysis]] - [[#🎯 Conclusion]] ### 🔗 References - [WP Tonic Podcast](https://wptonic.com/) - [Elementor](https://elementor.com/) - [Bricks Builder](https://bricksbuilder.io/) - [Etch by Kevin Geary](https://etchframework.com/) ## 📝 Summary - What happened: Mark Szymanski shares his journey from college graduate to WordPress agency owner and content creator - Why it matters: Provides insights into scaling from freelancer to agency while navigating the WordPress community - Key stakeholders: WordPress freelancers, agency owners, content creators, community members - Risks and tradeoffs: Balancing community involvement with profitable business focus; delegation challenges - Bottom line takeaway: Success requires focusing on profitable services, systematic delegation, and authentic community engagement ## 📖 Main Content Mark Szymanski discusses his evolution in the WordPress space, from building websites in college to becoming a recognized community member and agency owner. He emphasizes the importance of moving beyond solo freelancing through strategic delegation, while addressing concerns about echo chambers in the WordPress community. The conversation covers practical business growth strategies, including specialization over tool proliferation and the balance between community involvement and profitability. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/UYHpKgarLRs?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and community connections - Key idea: Mark has become well-connected in WordPress community through consistent content creation - Evidence: "I saw him on screen with Matt Maderas, Kevin Geary, all these people" #### ⏱️ [02:30](https://youtu.be/UYHpKgarLRs?t=150) — [H2] Background and WordPress journey - Key idea: Mark's path involved college, corporate job, then freelance transition during COVID - Evidence: "I left my job right before COVID and everything started, right around 2020" #### ⏱️ [05:45](https://youtu.be/UYHpKgarLRs?t=345) — [H3] Community vs. using WordPress - Key idea: Being in WordPress community is different from just using WordPress - Evidence: "You could be using it for a long time and not actually be in the community" #### ⏱️ [08:20](https://youtu.be/UYHpKgarLRs?t=500) — [H2] Learn, try, share philosophy - Key idea: Mark's content creation motivation stems from wanting to share knowledge - Evidence: "One of my life mottos is learn, try and share" #### ⏱️ [12:15](https://youtu.be/UYHpKgarLRs?t=735) — [H1] Echo chamber discussion - Key idea: WordPress community faces questions about diversity and inclusivity - Evidence: Discussion of Imran's post about creating echo chambers #### ⏱️ [18:30](https://youtu.be/UYHpKgarLRs?t=1110) — [H3] Community entry barriers - Key idea: No explicit invitations needed but content quality matters - Evidence: "I haven't seen anybody be really like get out of here. I also haven't seen invitations" #### ⏱️ [25:40](https://youtu.be/UYHpKgarLRs?t=1540) — [H2] Personal branding evolution - Key idea: Both Kurt and Mark evolved their content setups over time - Evidence: Kurt's garage setup with tools, Mark's bedroom to studio progression #### ⏱️ [32:20](https://youtu.be/UYHpKgarLRs?t=1940) — [H1] WordPress scale challenges - Key idea: WordPress's massive scale creates complex decision-making for leadership - Evidence: "WordPress is so large that every decision has vastly different ramifications" #### ⏱️ [38:15](https://youtu.be/UYHpKgarLRs?t=2295) — [H1] Freelancer to agency transition - Key idea: Mark is actively building team to move beyond solo work - Evidence: "I just hired, I've just now starting to actually build out a team" #### ⏱️ [42:30](https://youtu.be/UYHpKgarLRs?t=2550) — [H2] Identifying weaknesses for delegation - Key idea: Mark recognizes he's not good at design or editing - Evidence: "I am not a good designer, I'm much more analytical and objective" #### ⏱️ [48:45](https://youtu.be/UYHpKgarLRs?t=2925) — [H3] Freelancer challenges - Key idea: Many WordPress freelancers struggle with sell-fulfill-sell cycle - Evidence: "There's not enough time to sell, then fulfill, and then go back to selling" #### ⏱️ [55:20](https://youtu.be/UYHpKgarLRs?t=3320) — [H2] Business optimization mindset - Key idea: Mark struggles with over-optimization when should focus on revenue - Evidence: "You don't need to optimize anything. You're not making enough money to optimize" #### ⏱️ [62:10](https://youtu.be/UYHpKgarLRs?t=3730) — [H1] Entrepreneurship vs. employment - Key idea: Mark committed to making entrepreneurship work rather than returning to employment - Evidence: "There's no reality where I fail at this. I've already proven I have skills" #### ⏱️ [68:30](https://youtu.be/UYHpKgarLRs?t=4110) — [H2] Business simplification strategy - Key idea: Need standardized blueprints and tool stacks for efficiency - Evidence: Kurt focuses on 20 plugins out of 65,000 available #### ⏱️ [75:45](https://youtu.be/UYHpKgarLRs?t=4545) — [H3] Etch page builder discussion - Key idea: New tools like Etch promise to bridge page builder and block editor gaps - Evidence: "It's a page builder but automatically creates blocks in Gutenberg" ## 📚 References - [Mark's YouTube Channel](https://youtube.com/@markszymanski) - [WordPress Community](https://wordpress.org/community/) - [WordCamps](https://central.wordcamp.org/) - [Etch Framework](https://etchframework.com/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Mark's WordPress journey started with college web development, evolved through corporate work, then became full-time entrepreneurship during COVID - The WordPress community offers connection opportunities but requires authentic engagement and quality content creation - Scaling from freelancer to agency demands systematic identification of weaknesses and strategic delegation of non-core activities ## 📰 Newsletter Mark Szymanski's journey from WordPress freelancer to agency owner offers valuable lessons for growing your WordPress business. His "learn, try, share" philosophy demonstrates how authentic community engagement can accelerate professional growth while building meaningful relationships. Key takeaways include the importance of moving beyond the sell-fulfill-sell cycle through delegation, focusing on profitable specializations rather than chasing every new tool, and balancing community involvement with business objectives. Mark's transparency about his challenges with optimization paralysis resonates with many entrepreneurs seeking sustainable growth. Resources: [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [Developer Docs](https://developer.wordpress.org/), [WP-CLI](https://wp-cli.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create content showcasing WordPress business growth strategies - Education: Develop workshops on freelancer-to-agency transition - Community management: Address echo chamber concerns through inclusive outreach #### WordPress - Community: Evaluate diversity and inclusion in community leadership representation - Training: Create business development learning paths for WordPress professionals - Documentation: Document best practices for WordPress service business models #### The WPCC - Programs: Consider mentorship programs pairing established and emerging WordPress entrepreneurs - Funding: Explore microgrants for underrepresented community members entering WordPress business ## 🧪 Hypotheses - WordPress freelancers who systematically delegate non-core activities achieve higher profit margins than solo practitioners - Community involvement in WordPress accelerates business growth but requires balance to maintain profitability - Tool specialization produces better client outcomes than attempting to master every WordPress solution - Content creation serves as effective business development for WordPress service providers ### 📊 Methodology - Survey WordPress freelancers on delegation practices vs. revenue growth - Compare business metrics of community-active vs. community-passive WordPress professionals - Analyze client satisfaction correlation with service provider tool specialization ### ❓ Questions - How can the WordPress community proactively address diversity and inclusion concerns? - What systematic approaches help freelancers identify optimal delegation opportunities? - Which WordPress business models scale most effectively in current market conditions? ### 🔮 Future Research - Longitudinal study of freelancer-to-agency transition success factors - Analysis of WordPress community demographics and representation gaps - Evaluation of emerging page builder technologies impact on service businesses ### 💡 Implications - Practice: WordPress service providers should prioritize specialization and delegation over tool proliferation - Policy: Community leaders should examine inclusivity in promotional and speaking opportunities - Education: Business development training should be integrated into WordPress learning resources - Funding: Investment in diverse community member business development could strengthen ecosystem ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 8 #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Video format with speaker backgrounds and environments - Improve: Business growth diagrams, delegation flowcharts, community connection maps #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Podcast-style conversation format with personal anecdotes - Improve: Audio highlights summary, business strategy discussion points #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Rich discussion with definitions, examples, personal experiences - Improve: Glossary of business terms, agency vs. freelance comparisons #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Real-world business scenarios and practical examples - Improve: Delegation assessment checklist, business growth action steps #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Sequential business development timeline, cause-effect relationships - Improve: ROI calculations for delegation, growth metrics framework #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community connections discussion, networking insights - Improve: Community engagement strategies, collaboration opportunities #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual entrepreneur journey, self-reflection elements - Improve: Business assessment worksheets, personal development exercises #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Organic business growth analogies, ecosystem thinking - Improve: WordPress community ecosystem mapping, business lifecycle concepts ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear speaker identification in transcript - Improve: Structured headings for topic transitions, descriptive link text #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard YouTube video controls - Improve: Chapter markers for topic navigation, transcript search functionality #### Contrast and readability - Present: High contrast video player interface - Improve: Transcript formatting with adequate spacing, clear visual hierarchy #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript available - Improve: Time-synced captions, audio descriptions for visual elements ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion of various career paths and backgrounds - Improve: Examples from diverse geographic regions, international WordPress community #### Inclusive language - Present: Generally respectful discussion of community dynamics - Improve: More explicit acknowledgment of systemic barriers, inclusive terminology #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Conversational pace allows processing time - Improve: Clear topic transitions, summary sections for key concepts #### Representation - Present: Two entrepreneurs sharing different perspectives - Improve: Diverse voices in community discussion, varied identity representation #### Psychological safety - Present: Honest discussion of challenges and vulnerabilities - Improve: Content warnings for business anxiety topics, resource links for support ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Business scaling principles applied to WordPress context effectively - Inductive strength: Personal experiences generalized appropriately with caveats - Causal reasoning: Clear connections between delegation and business growth - Analogical strength: Effective comparisons between different business models #### Fallacies - Survivorship bias: Focus on successful entrepreneurs may not represent broader experience - Hasty generalization: Some community observations based on limited sample size #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Conversational and authentic, with appropriate vulnerability about challenges ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No concerning denials present - Attack: No attacks on individuals or groups - Reverse victim/offender: No victim/offender dynamics identified - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Authentic sharing of struggles and growth experiences ## 🎯 Conclusion Mark Szymanski's WordPress journey illustrates the evolution from solo freelancer to community-connected agency owner. His emphasis on systematic delegation, specialization over tool proliferation, and authentic community engagement provides a roadmap for WordPress entrepreneurs. The discussion of community echo chambers raises important questions about inclusivity that require ongoing attention and proactive solutions. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad Purpose: Stage CEE units that become Literature notes. Split level: H3 ### [H1] WordPress community involvement accelerates business growth > [!quote] EP106 Building Biz in WP with Mark Szymanski by Kurt Steinke via Manano Nomas Podcast. Published 2025. Accessed 2025-01-03. > "I saw him on screen with Matt Maderas, Kevin Geary, all these people for his time in the space." Community connections create visibility and opportunities beyond traditional marketing. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/UYHpKgarLRs?t=0#H1) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_001 ### [H2] Freelancer-to-agency transition requires systematic delegation > [!quote] EP106 Building Biz in WP > "There's not enough time to sell, then fulfill, and then go back to selling." Solo practitioners face revenue ceiling without delegation strategy. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/UYHpKgarLRs?t=2925#H2) #xref ID:rw_002 --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) Purpose: Promote reusable claims into Atomic notes. Split level: H4 #### [Z1] Learn-try-share creates authentic content strategy - Scope: Content creators in technical communities - Pointer: 8:20 timestamp discussion - Links: [[Content-Marketing]] [[Community-Building]] #### [Z2] Tool specialization outperforms tool proliferation - Scope: Service-based WordPress businesses - Pointer: 68:30 business simplification discussion - Links: [[Business-Optimization]] [[Service-Design]] --- ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue Purpose: Capture quick actions for Fleeting notes. - [F1] Research WordPress community diversity statistics — Imran's echo chamber post #fleeting #inbox - [F2] Document delegation decision framework — Mark's weakness identification #fleeting #inbox - [F3] --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] Heat. [00:03] [Music] [00:14] Heat. [00:16] [Music] [00:34] Hey folks, welcome back to another [00:36] Manano Nomas podcast. As you know, uh I [00:39] put these episodes out when someone [00:41] that's really awesome agrees to come and [00:43] share some time with me that can maybe [00:45] add some value to you. I met this guy [00:47] named Mark Zamansski uh on the WP Tonic [00:51] podcast doing stuff with Jonathan and he [00:54] just I mean he seemed a he's younger [00:57] than me so so he seemed vibrant, [00:58] youthful, all those things. Um but then [01:01] after that chat with him I saw him on [01:04] screen with Matt Maderas. I saw him on [01:05] screen with Kevin Giri. I saw him on [01:07] screen with like all these people and [01:11] for his time in the space and for the [01:13] energy level he brings he seems really [01:15] well connected in what a lot of us do [01:17] for a living. So I thought it'd be [01:19] really cool to introduce you to Mark and [01:21] let Mark tell us a little bit more about [01:23] himself. [01:24] >> Kurt my man, thank you so much for [01:26] having me. Greatly appreciate it. Uh and [01:28] thank you for that intro there. Yeah, I [01:30] mean just to add a little bit more to [01:31] it, uh a little bit of background we can [01:33] dive into it is um yeah, I mean so the [01:36] last I would say I keep saying like year [01:38] and a half and now it's probably like [01:39] two two and a half years I feel like is [01:41] has been predicated on diving more into [01:43] the WordPress community. Um which is [01:46] totally different than just being a part [01:47] of WordPress because you could be using [01:49] it for a long time and not actually be [01:51] in the community. And that's kind of uh [01:53] some of the stuff that you were talking [01:54] about there, which is being more [01:55] connected, just getting to know people, [01:57] product owners, uh content creators, [02:00] etc. I started building websites when I [02:04] was like kind of in college. So like I [02:07] graduated from the University of [02:09] Pittsburgh in what was it like 2018 I [02:13] think at this point. And and then I had [02:15] like a job and I was right I left my job [02:18] right before kind of co and everything [02:20] started. So, right around that time, you [02:22] know, 2020ish or whatever, [02:25] uh is when I left and I just started [02:27] building websites really like as a [02:29] freelance designer and um an agency [02:32] owner if you want if you wanted to call [02:33] it that. And then, you know, I was doing [02:36] that for a few years and then I was [02:37] creating content about other stuff, but [02:38] then ultimately I was like, I have this [02:40] skill that I'd like to tell people [02:42] about. And I just started making, you go [02:43] back on my YouTube channel and you could [02:44] see I just started making content about [02:46] Elementor, about Bricks when I switched [02:48] there. And that's kind of what propelled [02:50] me into literally just into the [02:52] community space of mainly WordPress. And [02:55] now I've, you know, I we could talk more [02:57] about kind of like where I think I'm [02:59] headed. Um, but ultimately that's kind [03:02] of it in a nutshell. I've always just [03:04] been really interested in technology and [03:06] now digital marketing. Uh, we got AI and [03:08] automation coming down the pipeline here [03:10] too. But um yeah, that's the quick [03:12] synopsis I would say of how I got to [03:14] where I'm at. [03:15] >> It's it's amazing that we both kind of [03:17] ended up, you know, in this pathway [03:19] together, but from very different paths. [03:22] Um I was in the car business for a long [03:25] like Matt Madaris. Matt Madaris was in [03:26] the car business [03:27] >> and um I was on the service side and I [03:29] would do 13, 14 hours a day, concrete [03:32] floors, arguing with people from sun up [03:35] to sun down about stupid stuff. And what [03:38] happened to me was I was just so keyed [03:39] up when I got home from work. I was [03:41] like, I got to find a hobby or [03:42] something. Um, and I latched on to [03:45] Macromedia 2004, [03:48] which for young people, it became the [03:50] Adobe Creative Cloud that we have today. [03:53] So that's where Dreamweaver and [03:54] Fireworks, a discontinued graphic [03:56] software package, came from and all [03:58] those things. I didn't go to school for [03:59] this. I literally spent the money, [04:01] bought the software, locked myself in a [04:03] room in the basement and just taught [04:05] myself how to do stuff. And I started [04:07] building websites like for nonprofits in [04:09] the community, like people that I knew, [04:10] like friends from church or whatever. [04:12] And I was like, I could probably help [04:13] you with that. And I would just do it, [04:15] you know. And then I was like, I should [04:17] probably start charging people for this [04:18] cuz apparently I'm half decent at it. [04:21] And so again, freelance like you. But [04:24] then when the economy really took a dip [04:26] in like 2008, 2009, I told my wife, I [04:30] said, I cannot keep going to a building [04:33] and standing on a concrete floor for 13 [04:35] hours a day to make 35 bucks. [04:38] >> Yeah, I can't do it. I'm going to quit. [04:40] And she was like, "Oh my god, don't [04:42] quit." And I did the coffee shop thing [04:44] for a while and I did some other like, [04:46] you know, anything to like meet people [04:47] and try and sell a website. And I was [04:49] like, "You know what? I got to get an [04:50] office." As soon as I got on office, [04:52] business doubled. And then I made some [04:55] other strange changes that seemed [04:56] counterculture at the time. But each of [04:59] those changes, I locked out and it was [05:01] like doubled my business, tripled my [05:02] business. And by the time I left [05:05] Albuquerque, New Mexico, Ducati, North [05:07] America was my number one client. [05:09] >> So, [05:10] >> but all that to say, I never knew about [05:13] the community through all of that. I [05:15] built that out of my basement in the [05:17] darkness of isolation. [05:19] um hurts and lessons learned the hard [05:21] way the entire way. And it wasn't until [05:25] Word Camp San Diego, what was that, [05:27] 2021? [05:30] >> Can't remember what year it was, but [05:32] that was my first Word Camp. Uh Lifter [05:34] LMS took me and they are so gracious. [05:37] They introduced me to everybody they [05:38] knew. Like if if Chris Badget knows [05:41] somebody and you're a guest with Chris [05:42] Badget, you know who that is. Like he [05:44] introduces you to everybody, plugs you [05:46] in, [05:47] >> and it was instant. I ended up on [05:49] podcast meeting everybody, you know. Um, [05:53] let's let's just let's just call this [05:55] out. Um, there was a post this week on [05:58] X. It got some attention. Immran said, [06:01] "Are we creating an echo chamber or, [06:03] >> you know, is the community really [06:05] solid?" And then I can't help but think [06:07] about this like I I think about this all [06:09] the time. [06:11] um disadvantaged people groups, people [06:13] with uh uh all the different communities [06:16] that we could list by name and they all [06:18] say disadvantaged people groups, [06:19] disadvantaged people groups. And then I [06:21] look at who I perceive to be these [06:23] influencers and people that like Chris [06:25] introduced me to, right? Like so Katie [06:27] Keith is one of them, right? So, okay, [06:29] woman column, but then I look at you, [06:32] Kevin, Matt, myself, Jonathan Denwood, [06:36] Chris Badget, Remiss, Poodle Press, WP [06:39] Tuts. Uh, we've all got something in [06:42] common, right? And and I go, so is that [06:45] the echo chamber that everybody's upset [06:47] about? And then, have you ever given [06:48] thought like, how do we expand that? How [06:50] do we invite these other groups into our [06:52] circles? Because nobody invited me. I [06:54] turned on my camera and went live. [06:57] Yeah, you know, it's a tough topic. Um [06:59] because, you know, I chatted with and I [07:01] I just chatted with Matt Maderas about [07:03] this a little bit uh too on our last our [07:05] last chat. Um I don't know. I don't [07:07] know. I don't have an answer for you, [07:08] man. Like, yeah, I I I wasn't invited [07:10] here. Like, you know, I wasn't like I I [07:13] I I [07:14] had a skill. And I was going to make a [07:16] point, too, about this kind of I think [07:18] it all kind of goes together is like, [07:19] you know, you could probably go your [07:21] entire career. I'm sure people have, you [07:24] know, in WordPress. So you could be [07:25] making millions of dollars possibly with [07:26] WordPress and not really be involved in [07:28] the community aspect at all because you [07:30] don't have to be which is a which is [07:31] kind of like cool and you know whatever [07:33] like it's a cool thing that you could do [07:34] that but if [07:38] you know and once you get involved in [07:39] the community I feel like it is mostly a [07:41] net positive at least from my experience [07:44] but also there are like drawbacks to it [07:46] because you know there's [07:49] this is a little off topic and I'll come [07:51] back to that other thought is if you go [07:53] so far cuz I've already done this in [07:54] just like the short time is I got I've [07:56] gone so far down the rabbit hole that it [07:58] al almost ends up being detrimental to [08:00] my business because I'm so like in the [08:02] weeds of like core versus page builders [08:04] versus this versus that and it's like [08:06] that is not making me any money like [08:08] maybe if I make content on it and really [08:10] monetize it but ultimately there's not [08:12] as many people that really care about [08:13] that type of content as there are people [08:15] that you know you could build or help [08:17] scale their businesses through digital [08:19] marketing and website and stuff. So, um [08:21] I think it's important to be involved, [08:23] you know, personal opinion because I do [08:24] like the connections and everything, but [08:26] at the same time, I think there's net [08:28] there's there are some negatives to it, [08:29] but over overall it's been a net [08:31] positive. Coming back to what you're [08:32] saying there is yes, just like you said, [08:35] I was not invited like I just had a [08:38] skill and I knew WordPress and then I [08:40] wanted to at the very core of it wanted [08:41] to share my life. One of my life motos [08:44] is learn, try and share. So, like I [08:46] learn things, I try them for myself. I'm [08:47] like, "Oh, this is pretty cool." And [08:48] then I want to share with others. I [08:49] don't know why I'm like that, but that's [08:50] what I wanted to do and that's the [08:52] reason that I wanted to do that and [08:54] that's and that's what what the [08:55] motivation was there and I just started [08:58] doing that. So, I mean, I feel like you [09:02] don't need an invitation. I feel like [09:04] this is like a pretty welcoming [09:06] community. What I don't see a lot of is [09:10] I don't see a lot of um people dissing [09:14] on people that much. Like I mean again [09:16] you could comment on certain like times [09:19] where it's like oh my approach is better [09:20] than your approach. Like I don't really [09:21] see that as like a disc personally. [09:23] Everyone has a different opinion on [09:24] this. So it you know it's like [09:26] completely subjective. But what I don't [09:28] see is like I don't ever see like don't [09:30] come into the community. That's not what [09:31] I see. I I've never seen that. I don't [09:33] see explicit invitations all the time. [09:35] But it's like [09:37] there's a there's another thread to [09:39] this. It's if we're specifically talking [09:42] about creating content there there is [09:44] this concept of [09:48] are you actually good at creating [09:51] content? And I don't say that to be an [09:52] [ __ ] What I say I say that to mean I [09:55] say that to be like are you engaging? Do [09:57] you care about your craft? Are you [09:59] trying to make your your set look good? [10:01] Are you trying to make your videos look [10:02] good and things like that? I'm not [10:03] saying you need to be world class, but [10:05] my point is that if you put out like [10:08] mediocre stuff, you can't really expect [10:11] everyone to love that. You can't expect [10:13] everyone to like get a get a bunch of [10:15] attention from that. This is really [10:17] hard. It takes a lot of consistency. It [10:19] takes a It takes a lot of work. Like I [10:21] don't know if you I'm sure you remember, [10:22] Kurt, like the other times I've talked [10:24] to you, I was I had a [ __ ] bed in my [10:25] background. I don't know if we're [10:26] allowed to swear here. Sorry about that. [10:28] I just I get passion I just get [10:31] passionate about this. But like I I had [10:33] a bed in my background. Now I have now I [10:34] kind of like built the studio and I put [10:36] a little video up. It's like I'm trying [10:37] to make myself better at the skill of [10:41] creating content or contributing [10:43] educational stuff to the community and [10:44] things like that and just like and do [10:46] all those types of things. I'm not [10:47] saying it's a requirement. I'm just [10:48] saying basic human nature, especially in [10:51] 2025, people like care a little bit [10:54] about how much you care. Like if you [10:56] care about your craft, then you can do [10:58] that. So, I know that was a I know that [10:59] was a long-winded answer, but I'm just [11:02] saying that I haven't seen anybody be [11:04] really like get out of here. I haven't [11:06] seen I also haven't seen invitations. [11:09] And the only thing that I feel like I [11:11] could do is I I try to do all the time [11:13] is like, hey, listen, this is what I do. [11:15] I learn, try and share. What I would [11:16] encourage you is to watch what I do, [11:20] then watch other people. And then if you [11:23] want, whoever you are, I don't care [11:25] race, religion, creed, sexual [11:26] orientation, like whatever, right? like [11:27] whatever you are, whatever you want to [11:29] do, if you want to share the thoughts [11:32] that you have, I would encourage you to [11:34] share them. What I would also tell you [11:36] though is that just because you're [11:38] sharing stuff doesn't mean people are [11:40] going to like you're going to become a [11:41] celebrity. That's not it's not a [11:43] onetoone there. Um it it's not like [11:46] you're absolutely going to be accepted [11:49] isn't the right word, but it's not like [11:50] you're going to become a thought leader [11:51] just because you're talking, but talking [11:54] is a prerequisite to becoming a thought [11:56] leader. [11:57] >> Yeah. [11:57] >> So that's that's just how I operate. And [12:00] I, you know, again, I encourage everyone [12:02] to like do that. Um at the same time, I [12:05] will say it's probably not for everyone, [12:07] but you don't know that until you try [12:09] and then you see what what happens, you [12:12] know. So, [12:12] >> yeah, to your point, I have tried lots [12:15] of things. I tried doing the uh, you [12:17] know, everyone was doing those virtual [12:18] backgrounds for a while and I was like, [12:19] I'll do a professional virtual [12:20] background. Uh, news flash, bulb people [12:23] look stupid on virtual backgrounds [12:25] because it does weird blocks around your [12:27] head. Like, it never looks right. It [12:29] never cuts just to your head. Um, so [12:32] it's like I think the hair I think the I [12:34] think the the curviness of the hair or [12:37] something does something to make make it [12:39] work better. Um, but it looks extremely [12:41] fake when bald people do it. Um, [12:43] >> interesting. [12:44] >> Yeah. So, so, so that was one of my [12:46] things. And then, uh, I used to work out [12:49] of my garage and I I was a master tech [12:52] for Ducati. I I worked for Ducati for a [12:54] while. I worked for Suzuki. I always had [12:56] tools in the garage and bicycles. I love [12:58] bicycles. And one of my friends who's [13:00] like a mentor, mentor, co-eer, whatever. [13:02] He was like, "Dude, forget all this [13:05] technology nonsense. Everyone that knows [13:07] you knows that you ride bicycles and [13:09] that you work on motorcycles. Like just [13:12] film it where you're at with the [13:13] toolboard right behind you. So for like [13:15] two years I made live content with a [13:18] bunch of special tools hanging on a wall [13:20] behind me and I thought it was really [13:22] stupid, but then I was interviewing a [13:25] publisher for a a book company and he [13:27] goes, "Hey, you're the guy with all the [13:29] tools, right?" And I was like, "Oh." So [13:32] I guess that kind of branding kind of [13:33] worked, right? And then we moved to [13:36] Kansas and I thought about redoing this [13:38] room. I really thought about it. Like I [13:40] was just going to redo the whole thing. [13:41] But then I was like part of my brand now [13:43] is I'm the guy that escaped California [13:45] and got to the to the lower cost of [13:48] living, you know, countryfriendly [13:51] small town Kansas vibe. And that's what [13:53] I'm trying to put in this room. Like [13:54] small town Kansas vibe. I even got my [13:56] cowboy hats back there. [13:57] >> Yeah. [13:57] >> Um [13:59] >> will it stay that way forever? No. [14:00] Eventually, I'm probably going to up [14:02] sweep the game, do a dark wall and nice [14:05] little shadow lights behind me someday, [14:07] >> but it's it's like everything's in [14:09] phases and to your point, you have to [14:11] take it somewhat serious or else no one [14:13] else is going to. [14:15] >> Yeah. I mean, I just think that I mean, [14:18] this obviously borders on a conversation [14:20] of like branding, like you just said [14:22] there, like that's a really important [14:23] part of it. Um, and that could be [14:25] whatever you want. Like it doesn't [14:27] matter exactly what your set is, per se. [14:29] It's more so like I said about like [14:31] consistency, but ultimately like I would [14:35] just say back to the point of like you [14:38] could anybody should feel free to kind [14:40] of share like what they're going what [14:41] they're they're interested in their [14:43] skills and everything like that. And [14:45] then you know I don't know specifically [14:48] about the uh the point that Imran was [14:50] making that was it sounded more like [14:51] there was a little bit of like promotion [14:56] not just like sharing your stuff but [14:57] like also like promotion [14:59] from almost creator creator or from like [15:01] WordPress like how much how much they're [15:04] um [15:05] >> kind of like promoting each people like [15:07] each person in their thing [15:08] >> and that's like a whole thing but [15:11] >> you know WordPress is a huge project [15:13] automatic is a huge [15:14] There's a lot going on there. And it's [15:17] almost to the point where, you know, [15:19] I've I've I've said this before on other [15:21] on other shows, but it's like it's [15:23] almost like this whole thing was built [15:25] again kind of around, you know, like a [15:28] circle, like a circle like a campfire, [15:29] right? Like a word camp, like a around a [15:31] campfire. Like everyone was building [15:32] that. And I wasn't here for that. So I I [15:34] empathize with how everyone feels, you [15:36] know, if they were here since like 2003 [15:38] or whatever. Um but now it's so large [15:40] that it just every decision like I [15:43] empathi empathize with the idea of [15:46] having a business and having a project [15:48] gets so big that now literally just in a [15:51] 15-year period the decisions that you [15:53] have to make are so vastly different [15:56] like the ramifications are so vastly [15:58] different of like oh well if we you know [16:01] again I'm making this up but like if [16:02] like WordPress.com or.org or whatever, [16:05] like said, "Hey, this person is [16:07] fantastic. Like, Kurt is fantastic. You [16:09] know, he's his content's awesome." Do [16:11] you know how many people you're going to [16:12] piss off? Like, you tried to do it one [16:14] nice thing for one person and you're [16:16] going to piss off so so many other [16:17] people. So, it's almost better to just [16:19] never promote anything kind of because [16:21] then you're just like completely [16:23] agnostic. So, I don't know. I don't know [16:25] the inner workings entirely. I just kind [16:27] of like see, you know, based on other [16:29] content creators what they say and what [16:30] their theories are and what their [16:31] thoughts are. And then I see what comes [16:33] out of, you know, the project and the [16:35] the, you know, and the product side of [16:37] of WordPress.com, WordPress.org. And um [16:41] it's a wild place. I mean, I don't, like [16:43] I said, I don't really envy um being in [16:47] that position. Maybe one day I'll have a [16:49] large company like that, but I don't [16:50] know. It's like, but it's a totally [16:52] different thing. It's like very [16:53] difficult to actually understand what [16:56] that is like when you're not at that [16:58] scale, I feel like. So, [17:00] >> as old as I am, you know, I remember [17:03] when Amazon was in a garage selling [17:05] books. [17:06] >> Yeah. [17:06] >> I remember, you know, when WordPress [17:08] launched. I mean, I started with [17:10] WordPress in 2004. I mean, that was [17:12] that's about as early adopter as you can [17:14] get with WordPress. [17:15] >> Yeah. [17:15] >> Um, and it was confusing as the dickens [17:18] back in the day. [17:20] >> Well, download a zip file, open this up, [17:23] put this over here, copy that. That not [17:25] doesn't work. Start over. Download a zip [17:27] file. So, uh, so, so that's the way it [17:29] was, you know, then. And I think about [17:31] where we're at now. And then then, and [17:32] to your point that now, you know, Matt [17:34] Mullwag's got to be like, I'm [17:35] responsible for 43% of the internet, you [17:37] know, like, like how, like when you try [17:39] and think about how does that really [17:40] work, it's like Bezos, right? Oh, I'm in [17:43] charge of, you know, 80% of e-commerce [17:45] or whatever it is. Um, it's just lunacy [17:48] when we think about those things. And [17:51] so, let let's let's roll back. You [17:54] started your business. You said I'm a [17:56] freelancer slash, you know, call me an [17:57] agency, you know, blah blah blah. I can [17:59] see in your post, especially on X, you [18:01] seem to be pretty forward on X about [18:03] like life goals, business goals, [18:07] financial goals, all those things. [18:11] What are the some of the biggest lessons [18:12] that you learned being a business owner [18:14] in the WordPress space and transitioning [18:18] from freelance to agency? [18:20] So that's been a pretty recent endeavor [18:23] actually as well because I just hired [18:25] I've just like now starting to actually [18:27] build out a team. I've always called [18:28] myself an agency. It's more been like an [18:30] agency of one. But I I feel like I did [18:32] that because that was where I was trying [18:34] to go. Like I definitely didn't want to [18:36] always be completely solo, but I was [18:38] obvious I was honestly just like kind of [18:40] terrified of the concept of like hiring [18:42] somebody. But, you know, over over my I [18:46] don't know, it's it's realistically it's [18:47] been like six or seven years, but really [18:49] like 5 years of actual entrepreneurship, [18:52] I've tried like a bunch of different [18:53] things kind of early on and then I kind [18:55] of settled more so into the website [18:56] stuff and then now the content is rolled [18:58] in there. Um, I think the biggest lesson [19:01] that I've learned, a lot of them are [19:02] again personal to me. It's like [19:04] literally just personal development. I'm [19:05] so interested in that. You know, I'm [19:07] coming up on you know, age 30 now. So [19:10] like I am, you know, from a life [19:12] perspective thing, like I am, you know, [19:14] my wife and I like we're going to be [19:16] starting a family soon. Like there's so [19:17] much like I'm in a transitionary period. [19:19] So I need to realize that like, okay, [19:21] the last 5 years and like the whole 20s [19:23] have been like a lot of learning which [19:25] has been awesome. But now like I really [19:27] do need to extremely focus on like [19:29] actually earning [19:31] um you know with the businesses and and [19:34] on top of that I'm thinking you know [19:36] some of the lessons like how can I [19:39] I constantly think how can I not like [19:42] how can I work less and make more but [19:43] kind of in that way like I don't want to [19:45] be what I've learned in this in this [19:47] agency realm and broader website design [19:50] is I'm a really I I've learned what I'm [19:52] not good at right let's start there so I [19:53] am not a good designer like I'm just not [19:55] a good designer I know what's I know [19:56] what's like looks good. I could [19:58] definitely tell you that. But uh I could [20:00] tell you something looks like [ __ ] but [20:01] I am not really good at going from like [20:04] a blank page to something beautiful. [20:06] That's just I don't have that mind. [20:07] That's I'm much more analytical and and [20:09] objective and and all that. So I'm not a [20:11] good designer. So that's something that [20:13] I'd like to hire out for and that I have [20:15] done recently. Um from the content side [20:17] of it, I'm not I don't really love [20:19] editing. I don't really like creative [20:21] stuff that much either. So like [20:22] thumbnails and editing, that's also [20:24] something that I'm hiring out for. What [20:26] I've re what I've realized recently is [20:28] that obviously with the IN of AI, you [20:30] could get pretty I was working on a [20:31] project earlier today and I'm like I [20:33] love dynamic data. I love the [20:35] structuring of all the website stuff. [20:37] Like if you tell me like what your goal [20:38] is as a as a business, you know, you're [20:41] a law firm and you want to have all [20:42] these different things on here and you [20:44] show me some examples, I will structure [20:45] the hell out of that website. I'll tell [20:47] you everything you need to know from a, [20:50] you know, custom post type situation to [20:51] the templates that you need to do for [20:53] the actual, you know, the templating [20:55] layouts of all those different things. [20:57] Love all that, but I'm not like I also [21:00] don't really want to write the content [21:02] because that's another problem for me [21:03] because I'm good at like talking and I [21:07] guess like expressing my opinions, but [21:09] now it's like I'm doing that for another [21:10] business. So that's like another piece. [21:12] So, you know, maybe a copywriter or like [21:14] an AI assisted copywriter is like [21:16] another thing that I would need to kind [21:18] of hire out there for. But, um, you [21:20] know, kind of all over the place here a [21:22] little bit, but ultimately the the [21:23] things that I've learned are really the [21:25] things that I don't like doing because [21:27] then I can hopefully start to delegate [21:29] those more and which I have started to [21:31] now. And I've realized that in [21:33] WordPress, there's a lot of people like [21:36] we could go into this if you want. [21:37] There's a lot of people in WordPress [21:38] that are trying to do it themselves like [21:41] as a freelancer and I genuinely look [21:43] around sometimes and I wonder like these [21:46] people are super talented and they work [21:48] and I could tell like they work really [21:49] hard and they're really passionate but [21:50] like I hope they are doing okay. You [21:53] know what I mean? Like cuz I think of [21:54] myself I'm like if I had to do this all [21:56] myself all the time there is no way that [21:58] I would ever get ahead whatsoever [22:00] financially because I just there's not [22:02] enough time to sell. This is a common [22:04] problem. there's not enough time to [22:05] sell, then fulfill, and then go back to [22:07] selling. Like, it just it's a terrible [22:09] that's a terrible cadence because you [22:11] never [22:12] >> you never have the ability to actually [22:14] sell more than you need for your, you [22:17] know, just to support yourself and, you [22:18] know, let alone save money and do that. [22:21] So, that's kind of that's the big thing [22:23] that I've learned over the last like two [22:24] years of just like really getting into [22:26] it. And I'm sure it's not a I'm sure [22:27] this is a problem that's broader than [22:30] just WordPress freelancers and agents in [22:32] and solo agency owners and stuff, but [22:34] that's like the really big one is [22:35] breaking past that I feel like is is [22:38] really where I'm where I'm at and the [22:39] biggest thing I've learned. [22:40] >> And and so I I kind of want to leaprog [22:44] around this a little bit. I'm thinking [22:46] about who you're connected to, who you [22:48] have conversations with um that I'm even [22:51] aware of, let alone what I'm not aware [22:53] of. Right. And then this conversation [22:55] we're having right now, it's like [22:58] obviously you've got some ideas coming [23:00] from mentorship and conversations you're [23:02] having with people with more skin in the [23:03] game or more more time in in the in the [23:05] frame set. [23:07] Think about these freelancers [23:09] like where where do they even see the [23:12] light at the end of the tunnel? Like as [23:13] you describe those freelancers, I think, [23:15] well, these are the people that are [23:16] locked into the $1,500, $2,000 websites [23:20] and they're like, "Well, I can't charge [23:21] more because I'm just, you know, I'm [23:22] doing this." And it's like, but if you [23:24] don't charge more, you're never going to [23:26] be able to hire somebody to do the stuff [23:28] that's weighing you down. It it's like [23:30] you get into this locked in thing. The [23:32] thing I've expressed personally that [23:34] that I found as I grew my agency was [23:37] that I had to learn everything the hard [23:38] way. No, there was no source. there was [23:41] no um root root source of information [23:45] that said, "Oh, you want to grow a [23:47] successful agency? Here's some things [23:49] you want to do. A, don't name it after [23:51] yourself." Like like and just common [23:52] things like don't name it after [23:53] yourself. What if you want to sell it in [23:55] 20 years, right? And then then just go [23:56] throw these things. And so, as I've been [23:59] creating a course to serve as kind of [24:01] this, you know, apprenticeship pathway [24:03] to growing your own agency, I've been [24:05] able to realize, wow, somebody would [24:06] have told me this stuff 15 years ago, [24:08] how far would I have gotten? Yeah, [24:11] >> you know, it's been really difficult. [24:13] >> Yeah, there's so there's a that's a [24:14] that's a great point. I mean, I I [24:17] actually have and this is something that [24:20] with my daily shorts that I post on [24:22] literally every platform. I've been [24:23] doing this thing for like 60 days where [24:25] inspired by some other creators where I [24:26] just like every single day I almost post [24:29] like a quick little recap less than 3 [24:30] minutes of what I did kind of and then [24:32] like a thought of the day. So, I'm [24:33] extremely I mean I'm I was already [24:35] introspective. Now I'm getting even more [24:36] introspective because I have to do it [24:38] every single day to an audience. [24:40] basically and it's been really helpful [24:41] for me and you know you say that you [24:44] know if somebody would have told you all [24:46] that stuff and I agree with that my [24:48] problem and I I think there's other [24:49] people out there that also have this [24:51] problem is my problem is that I actually [24:55] because I'm like extremely thoughtful. I [24:58] think way too much. So then I I if [25:01] somebody would have told me all that [25:03] almost would have probably overoptimized [25:04] because I feel like I did do this like I [25:06] was creating like other mini businesses. [25:07] cuz if you look at my LinkedIn, you can [25:09] see like, oh, I wanted to start like an [25:10] apparel company, a podcast thing, and [25:12] then I had another podcast with my wife, [25:13] and then I wanted to do like real [25:15] estate, you know, random [ __ ] Like, so [25:17] I was setting all these these things up. [25:18] And I didn't realize at the time that [25:20] like just how much energy and time it [25:23] takes to actually learn business to the [25:27] point of su like having any level of [25:30] success. [25:31] And even now, I struggle with it because [25:33] I'm I'm thinking like, how do I [25:35] optimize? How do I optimize? It's like, [25:37] bro, you don't need to optimize [25:38] anything. You're not making enough money [25:40] to optimize. It's obviously getting [25:42] better. It's trending better. But my [25:43] point is like that's that's the thing is [25:46] like I love that idea of a of like a [25:48] quick start course guide because it's [25:49] going to help a ton of people. The thing [25:51] I would also say though in there and I [25:52] would I would encourage you like almost [25:53] like tell these people is like you [25:55] here's here's everything that I've [25:57] learned, but there is a very big [25:59] difference between learning from your [26:00] own mistakes and learning from somebody [26:02] else's. Learning from somebody else's [26:03] mistakes is amazing. Like if you can [26:04] actually take that to heart and you can [26:07] and you can like oh like this person did [26:09] this and lost a million dollars. Okay, [26:10] definitely not going to do that. Like [26:11] that's great. But sometimes you don't [26:13] even like understand how that feels and [26:15] that doesn't fully resonate with you [26:17] until you make that mistake. [26:19] >> And I'm not saying you have to make the [26:21] mistake. It's just like that's that's [26:23] one of the meta like kind of nuances to [26:25] this whole thing that I've realized is [26:27] that there's a lot of it that [26:30] you some honestly sometimes it just [26:32] takes time. Like it just I don't I look [26:34] at these young kids now that are like 18 [26:36] years old and they're making like you [26:37] know 100 grand a month or whatever. [26:39] They're making these AI businesses. It's [26:41] like I that's awesome. That sounds [26:43] great. I really hope you're saving that [26:45] money cuz I hope nothing bad ever to [26:47] like what you're doing cuz like they [26:48] just make these YouTube videos and [26:50] they're just like what are you I don't [26:51] even I don't like I understanding [26:53] conceptually what you're doing but like [26:54] I don't understand how you they're doing [26:56] this. You're just like skipping class [26:58] and just doing all this random stuff. I [26:59] mean, it's it's wild this new new [27:01] generation of little entrepreneurs, but [27:04] um but yeah, so that's slightly off [27:06] topic, but that's that's just uh that's [27:08] what I've that's what I've seen so far, [27:10] and that's the things that I'm [27:11] navigating day-to-day. So, uh personal [27:14] note when when I said I was going to [27:18] start my agency, um I think most people [27:21] heard me say that and went, "Oh my god, [27:22] he quit a job and started an agency." I [27:25] quit a job and kind of started selling [27:26] websites is, you know, more accurate. [27:29] But like my wife was in the mom's club [27:32] and there were a bunch of moms in the [27:33] mom's club that thought they knew how [27:35] the world worked a whole lot better than [27:36] I did and were in her ear the whole time [27:39] going, "I can't believe you let him quit [27:41] his job. Oh my god, he's going to make [27:43] websites. I mean, my cousin can make [27:44] websites. Websites are easy. That's not [27:46] a real job. That's not a Right." And so [27:49] that follows for a decade. Like even [27:52] like Ducati is my number one customer, [27:54] right? And it's like, "Hey, there's this [27:56] job posted. Do you want to apply for [27:58] it?" And it's like [27:59] >> I am creating content for Ducatti North [28:02] America. Oh, and by the way, I'm a [28:04] motorcycle freak. So, it's like I have [28:06] the dream job. I'm working for the best [28:08] brand in the world, right? Um, and [28:10] people were still like, "Oh, are you [28:12] going to go get a real job?" Well, in [28:15] 2020, I was working for Suzuki and they [28:17] had a massive layoff. They laid off over [28:19] half the office and uh the whole [28:21] training department got cut and I was in [28:23] charge of the training department. And [28:25] uh and so I started applying for jobs [28:27] and there were no jobs to be had in [28:29] California for 55-year-old white dudes [28:32] looking for work in higher management. [28:34] Wasn't going to happen. Was not the [28:36] right and I'm not angry, but it just [28:37] wasn't the right season for me to be [28:39] unemployed, especially with COVID [28:40] rolling out. Um and so I relaunched the [28:43] agency, right? I said, "Well, it would [28:45] never it was never dead. I was always [28:46] doing side work. Let's just relaunch [28:48] this thing full-time." And it was [28:50] immediately the same thing like, "Oh, [28:52] just keep looking for a job. don't you [28:54] know why you know are do you need a real [28:56] job [28:57] >> and now here we are in Kansas and this [29:00] agency is paying for this house [29:02] >> right and it's like oh hey there's a job [29:05] like do you still suffer that being [29:07] self-employed where where you have like [29:09] this weird I'm not saying it's your wife [29:11] I'm not saying it's but I'm like you [29:13] know uh the the angel and the demon [29:15] right the angel's like you're killing it [29:17] man you you [29:18] >> what do you dude you're like what 8,000 [29:20] followers on YouTube now or something [29:23] Uh, like close to six, I think. [29:25] >> That's crazy. I not not me, folks. Not [29:28] me. Like and subscribe over here if you [29:29] want. Um, but you know, you got this, [29:31] dude, you're slaying it. You're killing [29:33] it. You know, everyone loves you. You're [29:34] on all these shows. You're doing great. [29:35] And then you have this other thing [29:36] going, you know, you could probably get [29:38] a real job teaching this at a college [29:40] somewhere. Like, you know, yeah, it's uh [29:43] Yeah, the the the [29:46] devil there or the the the pessimist one [29:48] is not my wife. My wife is incredibly [29:50] supportive. It's actually Maduros is the [29:51] pessimist. He's the he's the biggest [29:53] pessimist in my life. You can tell him I [29:54] said that. Uh hopefully you watch this [29:56] and he'll he'll know. Um yeah, he's he's [29:58] he's it's funny cuz he's kind of like, [30:00] you know, one of my I would say one of [30:01] my mentors in the space just cuz he's [30:03] like the very first person that reached [30:04] out to me when I started making like [30:06] WordPress stuff or whatever. And um you [30:09] know, he he's talk to him all the time [30:12] and it's been it's been great to [30:14] dispense like all the wisdom. And that's [30:15] the other thing too is like in the [30:16] WordPress space there's a lot of a lot [30:18] of you guys are like, you know, more [30:20] seasoned. you've been here, you like you [30:22] know like how it came up. You've been [30:23] using it for so long and like it's I [30:26] just really appreciate having all the [30:28] again like the wisdom from everyone that [30:29] I talked to and um you know the job [30:33] thing is something that I'll tell you a [30:36] little bit about the job thing. The job [30:37] thing I had uh an internship at a ReMax [30:41] franchise here in Pittsburgh. It was one [30:42] of like the biggest, it's still one of [30:43] the biggest like franchises here. And I [30:46] got in there like at an internship in [30:48] college. It around like 2017, 2018, [30:51] something like that. Um, and I was in [30:53] there for total three years I was at [30:55] that place. Internship and full-time [30:57] employment. Throughout that 3 years, I [30:59] was like in the I got it hired as like [31:00] kind of like tech guys, like I was [31:03] working next to guys that were coding in [31:04] ASP.NET and [ __ ] and then uh learned a [31:07] lot from them and then eventually kind [31:09] of moved my way into kind of like the [31:10] middle of there in the marketing [31:11] department cuz again small lean team of [31:13] of people and then I was like kind of uh [31:17] you like just a marketing person or [31:19] something like that like systems kind of [31:21] whatever and just doing a bunch of [31:23] different stuff learning a ton about you [31:24] know the tech and the marketing side and [31:26] then al ultimately I was like director [31:27] of marketing of like a couple people max [31:29] right and over that three-year period [31:31] right before co I left there because I [31:33] literally hated it like I just I it was [31:35] one of situations where I feel like [31:37] everyone goes through where you're like, [31:38] I'm just not learning enough anymore. [31:40] You know, the pay, I think it was like [31:42] 55 grand a year or something like that [31:44] at that point. And I was like, not [31:46] terrible money. Um especially when [31:47] you're still living at at home at the [31:49] time and everything. And you know, you [31:52] can say I had money to like save and [31:54] invest and all that. And like that's [31:55] that's fine, but like you can't keep [31:57] doing a situation like that that you [31:58] literally hate. At least I can't. Like I [32:00] can't keep going to something every [32:02] single day and just hating that. I look [32:04] back on that time in my life and I [32:06] think, okay, your other options were to [32:08] go get a better job somewhere. Like, you [32:10] could have probably made more money and [32:12] learned more and and bought another few [32:14] years. So, I don't regret just leaving [32:16] that and like just jumping cuz I haven't [32:19] had a job since then. Um, I mean, I I my [32:21] family had a diner, so I was obviously [32:22] kind of like working there a little bit, [32:23] but I haven't had like an actual job [32:25] since then. And I really don't want one. [32:28] Like, I can't even imagine myself having [32:30] one. And I feel like the only options [32:32] for me are to just make this work [32:34] because it's not like I've been squ like [32:36] just floundering for five years. I've [32:38] been learning so much and we've we've [32:39] been making more money every year. So [32:41] that's good. It's just like the real [32:44] issue becomes when the rubber meets the [32:46] road and it's like okay now your not [32:49] just the general you know US you know [32:52] economics and stuff like that are rising [32:54] you know crazily but like you have to [32:56] now now my like I'm in a position like I [32:58] said earlier where I'm in a [32:59] transitionary period where I have to I [33:00] have to physically make more money cuz [33:02] I'm going to have like I'll have like [33:03] another mouth to feed another two mouths [33:05] to feed in like less than 5 years. Will [33:06] you want to move into you know a [33:08] different house potentially like those [33:09] types of things. Um, so I know I'm like [33:12] all over here with the personal stuff, [33:14] but like it that's where it just really [33:16] all, you know, it kind of comes down to [33:18] when you think about like should I [33:20] continue with the business, should I get [33:21] a job, etc. But really when you break it [33:24] down, you could honestly just do a [33:27] little bit of introspection. And I think [33:29] again this is what I do every day now is [33:31] there is no reason like there's no real [33:34] reason and I don't think there's a [33:37] reality in where I fail at this. Like I [33:39] might not become Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, [33:42] but like there's no reality where I fail [33:44] at this. I've already proven that I can [33:47] that I have skills and I can monetize [33:49] them. [33:50] uh I've already proven that I can become [33:53] sort of like kind of omniresent in a lot [33:55] of like the channels and like I can and [33:56] and people you know want to connect with [33:59] me and I build these relationships well [34:01] and those types of things. Really the [34:04] problem is like time is the main one and [34:07] then a little bit of optimization and a [34:10] little bit of focus on hey Mark maybe we [34:12] should like focus on the things that [34:13] actually make us money. Maybe we should [34:14] maybe we should like see what we're [34:16] doing, see what lever we can pull that [34:18] makes the most money most consistently [34:20] and then pull that lever a little bit [34:22] more often. And that's all there is to [34:24] it. Like I it's oversimpl simplifying [34:26] business. But I have just realized that [34:30] I don't think I need a job. I think [34:32] maybe again there's maybe a different [34:33] path to go down, but I don't like that's [34:35] I I don't think there's any reason to do [34:37] that because I just think back to like [34:41] how bad I might end up feeling and I [34:43] don't want to feel like that because you [34:46] know, as you probably know, not every [34:48] day in entrepreneurship is great, but I [34:50] still think it's better knowing that [34:51] you're building something that's yours. [34:53] And uh and the last part is I just [34:56] cannot be told what to and what to what [34:58] to to say and not to say and to do and [35:00] not to do. like it's just not it's not [35:02] that's not for me. Like so anytime I put [35:05] I put myself in a position like that, I [35:06] don't want to like I want to respect [35:08] whoever I would be working for. And I I [35:12] can't do that while also staying true to [35:15] myself, so to speak. Like I can't be [35:16] like, "Oh, you can't you like you're you [35:19] work for so and so, you go on podcast, [35:21] you can't like swear or something like [35:23] that or whatever." Like just like that [35:24] that that type of small stuff. like I [35:26] just can't do it because I'm like [35:28] radically authentic all the time. So [35:32] >> just [35:34] I think we have a a similar vibe there. [35:36] I I want to go back to something that [35:38] you had said in your answer about [35:40] simplifying business and this is a [35:42] curiosity of mine personally. [35:46] I so I'm in the same mode as you like [35:49] how am I going to optimize this? How am [35:50] I going to grow this? How am I going to [35:51] create more more funding more whatever? [35:54] When I lived in California, I could not [35:56] afford to say no to any project. The [35:58] economy was so wicked whack there that [36:00] if someone said, "I need a website." I [36:01] was like, "I'm in." You know, like like [36:03] whatever it is, I'll do it. I'll do it. [36:04] I'll do it. Uh and now that we're in [36:07] Kansas and I don't have that pressure on [36:09] my shoulders anymore. I've been able to [36:11] say no to foolishness. I've been able to [36:14] say no to things that don't make sense [36:15] and I've been able to focus on things [36:17] that are in my wheelhouse and [36:18] profitable. And so for me, I'm very much [36:21] focused on membership and learning [36:22] websites. I just I I have the skill set [36:24] for it. I know how the tools work. I'm [36:26] very efficient with my time building [36:28] these things and they're skills that I [36:31] can actively teach a team how to [36:33] implement without giving people on the [36:36] team like direct customer access, right? [36:38] Like I can just say, I'll build this and [36:39] they'll they'll build it. So, it works [36:40] for me. But that all came from out of [36:44] the 65,000 plugins in the WordPress [36:46] repository, there's like 20 that I lean [36:50] on that that I really leverage and use, [36:54] but I also want to be an informative [36:56] person with content creation and stuff [36:57] like like you, right? [36:58] [Music] [37:00] Talk to me about simplification of [37:02] business and and like how you plan to [37:05] streamline and be really good and have [37:07] high margins with what you do without [37:10] being distracted by the other 64,982 [37:14] plugins. [37:16] >> Yeah. Yeah. It's not an easy it's not an [37:18] easy task. I mean, I think you have to [37:20] have I think any, you know, like if [37:23] you're trying to be responsible and [37:24] you're trying to be again profitable, [37:25] you don't you don't want to start every [37:27] project from square one every single [37:29] time. You should have some level of a [37:30] blueprint, some level of a stack that [37:32] you like to use, you know, and this is [37:34] I'm going to actually go way back for a [37:36] second. This is exactly what we're [37:37] talking about when we're talking about [37:38] um Imran's video like this concept of [37:41] echo chambers. It's just kind of human [37:43] like you literally can't know [37:44] everything. You can't know and talk [37:46] about everything at all times. So this [37:49] is just I think this is a real world [37:50] example of that. It's like if I use [37:53] bricks to build my websites, I am [37:55] probably going to know more about bricks [37:57] and talk more about bricks because I use [37:59] it to build my website. It's like I used [38:01] elementor before so I have some [38:02] knowledge there. I've never used divvy [38:04] at at scale. I've never used oxygen at [38:06] scale. I've never used you know even [38:08] like Gutenberg like obviously you know a [38:10] little bit about that because it's baked [38:11] in everything but like I've never really [38:12] used any of that. So it's like I can [38:16] learn more about those things. Sure. But [38:18] the trouble that I kind of have is that [38:19] I have two things going on. I have a [38:21] service business that needs to make [38:23] money from providing a service to [38:24] clients and building things that I feel [38:26] are, you know, potentially scalable, [38:28] maintainable, like just quality stuff. [38:30] And then I also have this other prong of [38:32] myself that is a little curious and [38:34] wants to educate people. Um, and I have [38:36] to and like you said, I have to be [38:37] really careful with how wide I go with [38:39] some of that because as I scale my [38:42] operation, I have more people working [38:44] like it would it was it's less important [38:46] how how tight I am in that sense of like [38:48] my time and or not my time but like my [38:50] focus of like what I'm doing cuz I [38:52] could, you know, I have a little bit [38:53] more freedom. But um, yeah, I mean again [38:56] like that's that when I started making [38:57] those YouTube videos is cuz I found [38:58] bricks and I was like really interested [39:00] and like there was some thoughts I had [39:01] around all those things and I was and I [39:03] was doing that. You have to you have to [39:05] have that blueprint though. You have to [39:06] have that stat because you don't want to [39:07] start from that square one. Uh and [39:10] honestly like [39:12] this is one of the other things like if [39:13] we could put it in the column of almost [39:15] like a potential negative of being in [39:16] the community is that you're constantly [39:18] inundated with all of the things that [39:20] are coming out. And as much as I would [39:23] love a world where everything is as good [39:25] as everything else, that's just not how [39:27] the world is. There are some people that [39:29] are there are some products that are [39:30] better than others and there are some [39:32] products that are worse than others. And [39:33] I know that's completely contradictory [39:35] to like kind of a lot of the WordPress [39:37] um you know community vibe that that has [39:41] been created there, but that is that is [39:44] literally it. Now good and bad is not [39:46] always a great use case. It's more like [39:48] good for this versus good for that. Good [39:50] for this avatar, good for this business [39:52] versus that business. There's a lot of [39:54] that in there. This is not a black and [39:55] white thing. It's very nuanced. Um, but [39:58] you just have to realize like that if if [40:02] you're trying to build websites for a [40:04] certain type of business or a certain, [40:06] you know, again, learning management, [40:08] like you have to think about, okay, [40:10] well, do I need like learn dash stuff? [40:13] Do I need lifter stuff? Like what like [40:14] what which feature set is kind of doing [40:16] that? So, there's going to be a little [40:17] bit of that, but you know, um, that's [40:21] kind of where I end up leaning on, if I [40:24] was in that position, I would end up [40:25] leaning on creators or even AI at this [40:27] point to kind of give me the lowdown. [40:28] And then obviously you have to do some [40:30] level of testing yourself. Um, but yeah, [40:34] I don't know if that's I don't know if [40:35] that's the best answer, but that's a [40:37] tough one because you have to you really [40:39] have to almost almost like only [40:43] dedicate you almost like have almost [40:45] like a dedicated window of your time [40:46] where it's like, okay, I can play around [40:48] and mess around in this amount of time [40:50] or I can, you know, learn things for [40:52] this amount of time in the day, but I [40:54] can't learn all the time because if I'm [40:55] not doing anything, then I'm not making [40:56] any money. So, that's that's like the [40:59] biggest thing regardless of uh of where [41:01] you're at, I feel like, is is my my [41:03] lesson that I've learned there. [41:04] >> I'm super big on time blocking and [41:06] journaling. I use this remarkable [41:08] tablet. Uh every conversation I have, I [41:11] get notes, right? They're all [41:13] searchable. It's digital. I used to have [41:15] notebooks and I had a stack of [41:16] notebooks. I was like, I can't find [41:17] nothing in these. Uh, and so I got this [41:20] remarkable thing and I'm able to like [41:22] time block my day and this is this and [41:24] this is that and podcast is here and [41:26] work is here and and learning is here [41:29] and I'm and I'm I'm pretty good about [41:31] it. I'm pretty good about it. I'm going [41:32] to be really transparent and tell you [41:34] where I jumped off the rails and I think [41:36] I overcommitted myself. I know it's the [41:38] right thing, but it's a it's been it's [41:41] been a challenge for me. Uh Kevin Giri [41:44] and Etch, he got all my money. I became [41:46] an early adopter. He puts things out. He [41:49] makes a video. Um, I find Kevin [41:53] incredibly intelligent, but sometimes [41:55] he's hard to listen to because he's so [41:57] brash, you know, and he's he's he's [41:59] like, "Ah, you designed like a chump." [42:01] Well, I've been a chump for a long time, [42:02] Kevin. Show me the right way. Um, but it [42:06] it's uh it's it's such a huge jump for [42:09] me to go from Gutenberg and creating [42:13] stuff like a chump in Elementor to this [42:15] whole idea of create this piece as this [42:19] class thing that's going to be used all [42:21] over the place and change it once and it [42:23] changes everywhere. Um, but the thing [42:26] that got me was as soon as he said it's [42:29] a page builder, but it automatically [42:32] creates the blocks in Gutenberg, so a [42:34] client could make the changes in [42:35] Gutenberg, but you can still build in [42:38] the page builder like that. They were [42:41] that they were consistent and synced. [42:43] That was that got all my money right [42:45] there because the reason I don't use [42:47] Elementor on new client builds is [42:50] because trying to teach clients how to [42:53] use Elementor after the page is live is [42:56] just some brain dead nonsense for me. [42:58] And it's and while as an agency we were [43:01] selling training, we were selling [43:03] consulting, we were you would think [43:04] that's another vertical, it it wasn't [43:07] becoming a successful vertical because [43:09] clients that weren't sharp enough, and [43:12] it sounds sounds harsh, but clients that [43:15] weren't sharp enough weren't satisfied [43:16] with the training. They wanted it over [43:19] and over and over. And I was like, well, [43:20] as we discussed three sessions ago, this [43:23] is what you click. Um, and then when [43:25] they got the invoice again, they were [43:26] like, but I already paid for it. Yeah. [43:27] Well, you don't pay for it once and get [43:29] me live three times, right? You get me [43:31] live once when you pay once. Um, and it [43:34] just became not a positive experience. [43:37] So, we don't I was like, "Okay, now [43:39] everybody's in cadence or Astra now." [43:41] Like, because I'm not dealing with the [43:42] Elementor thing and clients. [43:44] >> Yeah. [43:44] >> And so, when he released Etch and said [43:47] that was one of the features of Etch, I [43:49] was like, I'm in now. I'm in. Right. But [43:52] I'm trying to learn it and I'm beating [43:53] my head against the wall. You're an ETH, [43:56] too, right? [43:57] Uh yeah, I'm uh I was an I'm an adviser [44:00] for for uh for Etch and kind of like the [44:03] building and everything like that. So [44:04] that's something that I'm I've played [44:07] around in it pretty heavily. Obviously, [44:08] it's still at point is it 21 today? [44:12] >> I know that they literally as of [44:13] recording that as of recording this [44:15] they're literally I think you just [44:17] opened it today to for more or [44:19] >> air conditioning doesn't work. It might [44:21] go off today or [44:23] >> we share way too much online. We all do. [44:27] I I can't. Yeah, I absolutely me. Yeah, [44:30] 100%. [44:31] >> Well, uh kudos to you. I mean, to me it [44:33] seems like a paradigm shift in this page [44:36] build page builder space. Is that the [44:38] impression you get too, [44:40] >> you know? Yeah. I mean, going back to [44:42] kind of Kevin there. I, you know, I owe [44:44] a lot to Kevin because he's one of the [44:45] like main people too as well that I've [44:48] that I've learned a lot from, especially [44:49] like, you know, when I moved to bricks [44:51] specifically because of the content he [44:52] was doing, ACSS and frames and [44:54] everything. You know, my thing about [44:55] Kevin is I've I've heard the the [44:57] critiques and again sometimes I do [44:59] think, you know, he could probably ah, [45:00] you know, probably could have said that [45:02] a little differently. I wouldn't have [45:03] said it like that, but I but I still [45:04] agree with what you said. So, it's a [45:06] hard spot to be in. Um, but, you know, [45:09] definitely extremely intelligent. Here's [45:11] the thing I would say about like from [45:13] Kevin, you know, everything that I've [45:14] talked to him, you know, you talk to him [45:16] in person. This is the other thing to [45:17] you talk to him in person, you talk to [45:18] him DM wise, great guy. I mean, he's [45:21] always he's, you know, I don't know if [45:22] you've seen him at any events or [45:23] anything, but like it's he you could [45:26] tell, especially in person, that he [45:28] wants to move this whole thing forward. [45:30] Obviously, you know, he he wants to [45:33] serve himself and him family his family [45:35] just like everyone else does, but like [45:36] he really is passionate about this stuff [45:38] and hopefully, you know, a lot of people [45:39] can see that regardless of the [45:41] communication. So, but specifically to [45:43] make it about like the product of Etch [45:46] in that context is I really believe that [45:51] if you're going to if you're going to [45:52] use something to build with your [45:54] business, right? Like effectively when [45:55] you pick the builder, whatever the [45:57] builder is, you are building your [45:59] business around that tool, right? [46:01] Because like you have to either train [46:04] yourself or train or potentially end up [46:06] training other people on how to do this. [46:08] Now, I can't imagine a world, maybe some [46:10] people would do this, but I can't [46:12] imagine a world where you'd want to [46:13] change your builder like every year. [46:14] Like, that doesn't seem like a thing [46:16] that you'd want to do, right? I've [46:17] changed it twice. I was an elementor for [46:19] several years and then bricks. And I [46:22] can't imagine there's a lot of good [46:23] stuff out there, but I can't imagine [46:24] like changing all the time. Like, [46:26] there's just too many out there and [46:27] there's too many similarities. But the [46:29] thing that I would say that I feel about [46:31] Etch personally is that of all of the [46:34] people and the builder like the builders [46:36] and the people behind the builders that [46:37] I've kind of seen here, it's like [46:40] if you were going to bet on something or [46:42] someone, wouldn't you bet on the one [46:44] that's like the most like almost like [46:47] unbelievably relentless and passionate [46:49] about something? So that's the thing [46:51] that that's the that's that's probably I [46:53] probably say that a little differently [46:54] but like with Etch like I just feel like [46:57] Kevin is not going to stop until that [46:59] thing is like perfect and it's never [47:01] going to be perfect so he's never going [47:04] to stop. You know what I mean? So it's [47:05] like if you were going to build your [47:06] business around something and you were [47:08] going to build it around a a builder in [47:09] WordPress specifically like this. That's [47:12] why like I'm super bullish on it based [47:15] on everything that I've seen. You know, [47:16] nobody can predict the future, but it's [47:18] like every time I see Kevin talking [47:20] about something, he's just in the like [47:23] this is what's happened to me over the [47:24] last couple years. [47:26] I was like really in the weeds when I [47:29] got to the bricks thing. I was when I [47:30] got into bricks. I was like, "Oh, wow. [47:31] This is way better than Elementor or [47:33] whatever because I could do this, this, [47:34] and this really easily, and that's [47:35] awesome." [47:37] But like then I realized that if this is [47:40] a whole topic for another episode, so, [47:42] you know, I'll try to keep it concise [47:43] here. But then I got to the real the the [47:45] the realization where it's like, Mark, [47:47] you have to be honest with yourself. [47:48] Like, you're not a designer. You're not [47:50] really a developer. You can build [47:52] websites, but like do you want to be [47:53] doing this for the rest of your life? [47:55] And honestly, the answer is like, uh, [47:58] maybe I'd love the freedom to not do it [48:00] for the rest of my life. I'd love to be [48:01] able to have somebody else like kind of [48:03] like me steer the ship, like move myself [48:05] higher up in the business rather than [48:08] specifically having to be, you know, [48:10] chained to my desk like just, you know, [48:13] doing stuff in Elementor bricks or [48:14] whatever, right? And I'm thinking to [48:16] myself like, okay, wait a second. If [48:18] that's my goal, then I don't necessarily [48:21] want to be the one that has to know [48:23] every single CSS [48:26] syntax and everything else like this. [48:28] Like, I know enough to be dangerous. [48:29] probably know enough than like the [48:30] average person, but there's a there's a [48:33] there's this idea of like diminishing [48:35] returns where like you could know so so [48:36] much and like you could charge more for [48:38] the stuff that you know for sure, but if [48:40] your goal like I just had this problem [48:42] where like I would watch a ton of [48:43] content I'd be like oh I want to be a [48:44] web developer web but it's like really I [48:48] don't need to be that and I'm not sure [48:50] over this is just happens over the [48:51] course of you being a business person [48:53] you like maybe you realize that you're [48:56] more of a a CTO or a CEO or a CM O or a [49:01] uh you know COO, right? Like honestly, [49:03] that's kind of possibly where I'm really [49:04] at. But my point is that I just realized [49:07] that I didn't want like I look at stuff [49:09] now and I'm like I know what this does. [49:11] I know the inherent value of knowing all [49:14] these extreme technical skills and I'm [49:16] not going to stop. like I'm I'm going to [49:18] continue to learn, but I'm going to I'm [49:20] going to change the way that I think [49:21] about it. And I'm going to think, all [49:23] right, I'm I'm trying to, you know, [49:26] optimize for me being out of this a [49:28] little bit more. So, let me just like [49:30] focus on learning it so I can train [49:32] people or learning it enough so I know [49:34] what's going on, but really, why don't I [49:35] go find more people that can fill in the [49:38] holes that I physically can't do or I [49:41] don't want to do? And that's been a real [49:43] paradigm shift, I would say, over the [49:45] last like, you know, 3 to 6 months. And [49:47] it and I'm happy that it's been going [49:48] that way. And I don't know if that was [49:50] at all that all at all answered your [49:52] question, but that's why like all of [49:54] those things put together, [49:56] you know, and again, back to the ETH [49:58] thing specifically, I know that Kevin's [49:59] not going to let that thing fail. So [50:01] that's why like I am willing to be [50:03] optimistic and kind of like invest my [50:06] energy into learning it, but also like [50:07] building around that moving forward. [50:10] Again, I think it's we're kind of still [50:11] in the alpha stages, so I'm not telling [50:13] you to necessarily go out and start [50:14] building a ton of websites with that [50:16] right now because I've seen it and it's [50:17] it's extremely promising, but just like [50:19] anything, it takes time to really ramp [50:20] up. So, um I'm bullish on it. Uh but, [50:25] you know, that's that's I'm trying to [50:26] give you the context of why I think the [50:29] way that I think and I'm and I'm trying [50:30] to like move in that direction. Uh just [50:32] with that, you know, with Etch as one of [50:34] the examples. Well, I loaded it into a [50:37] test site with ACSS and started just [50:39] kind of formatting a homepage. You know [50:42] what I mean? Like, let's just [50:44] >> cut yourself a break, Curt, and let's [50:46] just do something basic, right? With [50:47] nobody watching. And uh and [50:50] >> so far, I mean, it it's doing stuff, but [50:53] there's so many things to do outside my [50:55] skill set. Um, [50:57] >> you know, listening to you talk is like [50:58] listening to someone that just read the [50:59] book Strength Finders, right? Like, [51:01] focus on your strengths, don't worry [51:02] about your weaknesses. [51:04] Uh I'm in the same boat. For me, it's I [51:07] am a I am an unbelievably good project [51:10] manager. Unbelievably good. Like the my [51:12] the way that I'm able to see where we're [51:14] at, like take the snapshot where we're [51:16] at, see where we want to go, what are [51:17] the milestones to get there, who's the [51:19] best implementer for each of those [51:21] milestones, put it on a Gant chart, [51:23] boom. Like, like I have that nailed [51:25] down. And so as I've decided to grow my [51:28] agency, I've I've very much gone into [51:30] the the phase of how can I be a good [51:32] consultant, uh trainer, coach, all that [51:36] stuff, right? I really like to educate [51:37] people. Um and then project managing. [51:40] And then when it comes to uh you know [51:44] the update the elementor, do this with [51:46] the PHP do blah blah blah. I have people [51:48] to do that stuff. I really just try to [51:51] make sure I educate myself enough that I [51:53] have enough surface understanding to [51:54] understand what they're telling me. And [51:56] then if clients are asking for things, I [51:59] know that it's relatable and I can I can [52:00] relate that to the team to make sure [52:02] that I can we can execute it, you know, [52:04] but but I have people to do that. Dude, [52:06] I I'm having so much fun with you. Uh [52:09] but I do want to value your time and [52:10] thanks again for coming on the show cuz [52:12] you said no, but you showed up. Um, is [52:16] there anything that you're releasing [52:17] soon that you want to share or just tell [52:19] us what are the best ways for people to [52:20] get in touch with you if they want to [52:22] get in touch with you outside of the [52:23] show other than liking, subscribing, and [52:25] following this show? [52:27] >> Oh, yeah. Uh, yeah, I should really have [52:29] something to sell. I'm working on that. [52:30] Um, but if in the interim, if you just [52:32] go to mjs.bio, [52:34] that's kind of my links page. You can [52:36] check out the agency. You can check out [52:37] my YouTube channel or whatever. If you [52:39] want to sign up for the only thing I [52:41] really promote is there's a newsletter [52:42] sign up there. If you want to head over [52:44] there, if you like what we're chatting [52:45] about here and everything like that, you [52:46] want to learn more, you sign up there, [52:47] then I promise you when I have something [52:50] of extreme value to give you other than [52:52] just the content that I produce, I will [52:54] let you know. So, uh, but Kurt, man, [52:56] this has been a great conversation, man. [52:57] Thank you so much for having me. [52:58] >> This whole show, we didn't even get to [53:00] talk about playing hockey together. [53:02] >> Next time. [53:03] >> Next time, folks. We'll see you next [53:05] show. [53:09] [Music] [53:09] [Applause] [53:12] [Music]  📄 **Full text:** ![[Full Document Contents/Articles/EP106 Building Biz in WP With Mark Szymanski.md|EP106 Building Biz in WP With Mark Szymanski by YouTube]] ## Highlights - passionate about this. But like I I had a bed in my background. Now I have now I kind of like built the studio and I put a little video up. It's like I'm trying to make myself better at the skill of creating content or contributing educational stuff to the community and things like that and just like and do all those types of things. I'm not saying it's a requirement. I'm just saying basic human nature, especially in 2025, people like care a little bit about how much you care. Like if you care about your craft, then you can do that. So, I know that was a I know that was a long-winded answer, but I'm just ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krgptybvq9xdf3r7v3nw696c)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - agency of one. But I I feel like I did that because that was where I was trying to go. Like I definitely didn't want to always be completely solo, but I was obvious I was honestly just like kind of terrified of the concept of like hiring somebody. But, you know, over over my I don't know, it's it's realistically it's been like six or seven years, but really like 5 years of actual entrepreneurship, I've tried like a bunch of different things kind of early on and then I kind of settled more so into the website stuff and then now the content is rolled in there. Um, I think the biggest lesson ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krgptyg2a3mbw7s2jha041gb)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - don't really want to write the content because that's another problem for me because I'm good at like talking and I guess like expressing my opinions, but now it's like I'm doing that for another business. So that's like another piece. So, you know, maybe a copywriter or like an AI assisted copywriter is like another thing that I would need to kind of hire out there for. But, um, you know, kind of all over the place here a little bit, but ultimately the the things that I've learned are really the things that I don't like doing because then I can hopefully start to delegate those more and which I have started to ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krgptyktrv6e8da16v13s9d1)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - and solo agency owners and stuff, but that's like the really big one is breaking past that I feel like is is really where I'm where I'm at and the biggest thing I've learned. >> And and so I I kind of want to leaprog around this a little bit. I'm thinking about who you're connected to, who you have conversations with um that I'm even aware of, let alone what I'm not aware of. Right. And then this conversation we're having right now, it's like obviously you've got some ideas coming from mentorship and conversations you're ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krgptysmn5d3dat6w4z626gr)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - this, you know, apprenticeship pathway to growing your own agency, I've been able to realize, wow, somebody would have told me this stuff 15 years ago, how far would I have gotten? Yeah, >> you know, it's been really difficult. >> Yeah, there's so there's a that's a that's a great point. I mean, I I actually have and this is something that with my daily shorts that I post on literally every platform. I've been doing this thing for like 60 days where inspired by some other creators where I just like every single day I almost post like a quick little recap less than 3 ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krgptz0v9e1b431cevasaqbm)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - somebody would have told me all that almost would have probably overoptimized because I feel like I did do this like I was creating like other mini businesses. cuz if you look at my LinkedIn, you can see like, oh, I wanted to start like an apparel company, a podcast thing, and then I had another podcast with my wife, and then I wanted to do like real estate, you know, random [ __ ] Like, so I was setting all these these things up. And I didn't realize at the time that like just how much energy and time it takes to actually learn business to the point of su like having any level of success. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krgptz70z0xqq4hr4xb052wr)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - if someone said, "I need a website." I was like, "I'm in." You know, like like whatever it is, I'll do it. I'll do it. I'll do it. Uh and now that we're in Kansas and I don't have that pressure on my shoulders anymore. I've been able to say no to foolishness. I've been able to say no to things that don't make sense and I've been able to focus on things that are in my wheelhouse and profitable. And so for me, I'm very much focused on membership and learning websites. I just I I have the skill set for it. I know how the tools work. I'm very efficient with my time building these things and they're skills that I ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krgptzkhjadbvpeq972zptmb)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - got into bricks. I was like, "Oh, wow. This is way better than Elementor or whatever because I could do this, this, and this really easily, and that's awesome." But like then I realized that if this is a whole topic for another episode, so, you know, I'll try to keep it concise here. But then I got to the real the the the realization where it's like, Mark, you have to be honest with yourself. Like, you're not a designer. You're not really a developer. You can build websites, but like do you want to be doing this for the rest of your life? And honestly, the answer is like, uh, maybe I'd love the freedom to not do it ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krgptzzr27d5q7p6mf0n156j)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - uh you know COO, right? Like honestly, that's kind of possibly where I'm really at. But my point is that I just realized that I didn't want like I look at stuff now and I'm like I know what this does. I know the inherent value of knowing all these extreme technical skills and I'm not going to stop. like I'm I'm going to continue to learn, but I'm going to I'm going to change the way that I think about it. And I'm going to think, all right, I'm I'm trying to, you know, optimize for me being out of this a little bit more. So, let me just like ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krgpv0g5m0nza23s7x7x981c)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - that's why like I am willing to be optimistic and kind of like invest my energy into learning it, but also like building around that moving forward. Again, I think it's we're kind of still in the alpha stages, so I'm not telling you to necessarily go out and start building a ton of websites with that right now because I've seen it and it's it's extremely promising, but just like anything, it takes time to really ramp up. So, um I'm bullish on it. Uh but, you know, that's that's I'm trying to give you the context of why I think the way that I think and I'm and I'm trying ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krgpv14x5rb7avxy9je1gjes)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted