Easy Optimism vs Durable Hope With Sharon McMahon

Easy Optimism vs Durable Hope With Sharon McMahon ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/p6RuIIm4irc/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [Easy Optimism vs Durable Hope With Sharon McMahon](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6RuIIm4irc) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [christian-nationalism, political-religion, generational-theology, american-civil-religion, justice-theology, racial-politics] > author: [MISSING] > source: The Holy Post > reference: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6RuIIm4irc] > date created: {{date:YYYY-MM-DD}} {{time:HH:mm}} > > # 🏷️ Title: Easy Optimism vs Durable Hope with Sharon McMahon (ep. 721) >  ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ## 📝 Summary - A Christian nationalist "rededication" ceremony on the National Mall lacked biblical elements of repentance and included only MAGA-aligned speakers - Elon Musk's increasing focus on racial discourse and "white replacement" rhetoric raises concerns about his platform's influence - Gen Z Christians are shifting from asking "why do bad things happen to good people?" to "why don't bad things happen to bad people?" - The generational theological divide reflects broader cultural tensions between personal righteousness and social justice - Political movements across the spectrum provide frameworks for moral hatred disguised as righteousness ## 📖 Main Content The hosts discuss three interconnected phenomena shaping contemporary American Christianity and politics. The "Rededicate 250" ceremony exemplifies how Christian nationalism appropriates biblical language while abandoning biblical substance. Unlike biblical rededication ceremonies that centered repentance and confession of national sins, this event focused solely on recent cultural changes around LGBTQ+ issues while ignoring historical injustices like slavery and genocide. Elon Musk's racial discourse demonstrates how wealth and platform ownership can amplify harmful narratives. His focus on "white replacement" theory and criticism of diverse casting choices reflects broader anxieties about changing demographics and cultural representation. The generational shift in theological questions reveals deeper tensions about justice, mercy, and divine judgment. Where previous generations struggled with theodicy—why good people suffer—Gen Z Christians increasingly question why oppressors escape consequences. This shift reflects both greater awareness of global suffering through social media and frustration with apparent lack of accountability for systemic injustices. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:03:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6RuIIm4irc&t=192) Rededicate 250 Event Analysis - House Speaker Mike Johnson led prayer to "rededicate" America to God - Platform included Eric Metaxas, Greg Locke, Sean Feucht, Mark Driscoll - Zero mainline Protestant representation, minimal Catholic/Jewish presence - Trump did not attend—recycled video from previous event #### ⏱️ [00:12:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6RuIIm4irc&t=765) Biblical Model vs. Political Performance - Nehemiah 9 provides biblical template: confession of sins before rededication - Franklin Graham's video focused only on "transgenderism" and same-sex marriage - No acknowledgment of historical sins like slavery or genocide - Event served MAGA political goals rather than genuine spiritual renewal #### ⏱️ [00:18:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6RuIIm4irc&t=1110) Elon Musk's Racial Rhetoric - 6% of Musk's posts (850 total) about race in 7-month period - Claims whites are "rapidly dying minority" facing "unrelenting hate" - Posted racist content about Lupita Nyong'o's casting in The Odyssey - Uses platform ownership to amplify white replacement theory narratives #### ⏱️ [00:35:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6RuIIm4irc&t=2120) Gen Z Theological Questions - Shift from "why do bad things happen to good people?" to "why don't bad things happen to bad people?" - Students struggle more with God's mercy to oppressors than with suffering itself - Social media exposure increases awareness of global injustice and oppression - Growing comfort with political violence as means to achieve justice #### ⏱️ [00:42:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6RuIIm4irc&t=2535) Righteousness and Self-Reflection - Both progressive and conservative movements designate acceptable targets for hatred - Missing element: personal confession and recognition of complicity in sin - Political movements often mask personal pain and trauma through ideological warfare - Need for both social justice awareness and personal spiritual transformation ## 📚 References - [Christianity Today article on Gen Z theological questions](MISSING) - [Nehemiah 9 - Biblical model of national rededication](MISSING) - [Policy Genius](policygenius.com/holypost) - [BetterHelp](betterhelp.com/holypost) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase The Holy Post team examines how American Christianity is being reshaped by political performance, racial anxieties, and generational theological shifts. The "Rededicate 250" event on the National Mall exemplified Christian nationalism's hollow appropriation of biblical language—claiming to rededicate America to God while avoiding the biblical requirements of confession and repentance for national sins. Meanwhile, Elon Musk's increasingly racial focus demonstrates how platform ownership can amplify harmful narratives about white replacement and cultural decline. His criticism of diverse casting choices and claims about white persecution reflect broader anxieties that find receptive audiences in online spaces. Perhaps most significantly, Gen Z Christians are asking fundamentally different theological questions than previous generations. Rather than struggling with why good people suffer, they're demanding to know why bad people escape consequences. This shift reflects both greater awareness of global injustice through social media and frustration with apparent lack of accountability for oppression. ## 📰 Newsletter This week on The Holy Post, the team unpacks three troubling trends reshaping American Christianity. From the hollow political theater of "rededicating" America to God (without any actual repentance) to Elon Musk's concerning racial rhetoric, we're seeing how power and platform combine to distort Christian witness. Most fascinating is their discussion of how Gen Z Christians are flipping traditional theological questions—less concerned with "why do bad things happen to good people?" and more demanding "why don't bad things happen to bad people?" It's a shift that reveals both greater awareness of injustice and dangerous comfort with vengeance over mercy. Essential listening for anyone trying to navigate the intersection of faith, politics, and generational change in American Christianity. ## ✅ Action Items #### Community - Develop biblical literacy resources on concepts of justice, mercy, and national repentance - Create intergenerational dialogue opportunities about theology and social justice - Establish mentorship programs connecting older believers with justice-oriented younger Christians - Host workshops on discerning between biblical justice and political vengeance #### WordPress - Community: Develop discussion frameworks for difficult theological and political topics - Training: Create content on media literacy and platform bias awareness - Documentation: Compile resources on Christian approaches to social media engagement - Accessibility: Ensure religious content is accessible across diverse learning styles and abilities ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Christian nationalism events that lack repentance elements serve primarily political rather than spiritual functions - Platform ownership significantly amplifies the reach and normalization of fringe racial theories - Gen Z's theological focus on divine judgment reflects social media exposure to global suffering - Political movements across the spectrum provide frameworks for sanctified hatred of ideological opponents - Intergenerational theological tensions mirror broader cultural divides about justice and mercy - Personal spiritual formation suffers when subsumed under political identity ## 📊 Methodology ### Study designs to test the hypotheses: - Content analysis comparing biblical rededication ceremonies with contemporary political-religious events - Longitudinal study of social media platform algorithm changes under different ownership - Survey research on generational differences in theological priorities and biblical interpretation - Ethnographic study of how young Christians integrate social justice concerns with traditional faith - Experimental research on how social media exposure affects moral reasoning about justice and mercy ## ❓ Questions - How can churches address legitimate justice concerns while maintaining gospel centrality? - What role should Christian leaders play in countering harmful racial rhetoric on social media platforms? - How do we distinguish between biblical justice and political vengeance in practical ministry contexts? - What theological frameworks help process global suffering awareness without losing hope? - How can intergenerational Christian communities bridge theological and political divides? ## 🔮 Future Research - Long-term effects of social media exposure on moral reasoning and theological development - Comparative analysis of Christian nationalism across different cultural contexts - Impact of platform ownership concentration on religious discourse - Effectiveness of different approaches to Christian political engagement - Role of historical awareness in contemporary theological formation ## 💡 Implications ### Practice - Churches need intentional strategies for addressing political polarization within congregations - Christian education must include both personal spiritual formation and social justice awareness - Religious leaders require training in digital media literacy and platform bias recognition ### Policy - Religious liberty protections must distinguish between genuine faith expression and political performance - Social media regulation should consider the amplification effects of platform ownership concentration - Educational institutions need frameworks for addressing generational theological differences ### Education - Theological education must integrate historical awareness with contemporary justice concerns - Biblical literacy programs should emphasize both personal and social dimensions of faith - Media literacy becomes essential for religious formation in digital age ## 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Grade 12-14 (Flesch-Kincaid). Content assumes familiarity with theological concepts and contemporary political references. #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Podcast format with visual timestamps and section headings - Improve: Add infographics comparing biblical vs. political rededication elements, social media post examples, generational theology comparison charts #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Primary audio content with multiple speakers and conversational format - Improve: Provide audio summary highlighting key theological concepts, include pronunciation guides for names #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Rich dialogue format with definitions and examples embedded naturally - Improve: Add glossary of theological terms, provide analogies for complex concepts #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Timestamped segments allow selective engagement with topics - Improve: Create discussion guides with practical application exercises, provide reflection questions for journaling #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear progression from observation to analysis to implications - Improve: Add decision trees for evaluating political-religious events, provide logical frameworks for theological discernment #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Conversational format models respectful disagreement and collaborative thinking - Improve: Include discussion prompts for small groups, provide moderated online forum links #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual podcast consumption allows private processing - Improve: Add reflection questions for personal study, provide journaling prompts for theological development #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Limited natural analogies in current content - Improve: Include ecosystem metaphors for church health, discuss environmental stewardship as justice issue ## 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading hierarchy and descriptive link text in transcript - Improve: Add ARIA labels for timestamp links, ensure all speaker transitions are clearly marked #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard video player controls accessible via keyboard - Improve: Ensure transcript sections have logical tab order, add skip-to-content links #### Contrast and readability - Present: Transcript provides text alternative to audio content - Improve: Ensure transcript formatting meets 4.5:1 contrast ratio, use appropriate font sizing #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Transcript text should reflow appropriately - Improve: Test transcript readability at 200% zoom, ensure no content clipping #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided for audio content - Improve: Add time-synced captions to video player, provide downloadable transcript option #### Forms and interactions - Present: Basic video controls available - Improve: Ensure custom video controls have appropriate labels and error states ## 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion acknowledges diverse perspectives within Christianity - Improve: Include more international perspectives on Christian nationalism, expand beyond US-centric analysis #### Inclusive language - Present: Generally inclusive discussion of racial and generational differences - Improve: Define theological terms more clearly, avoid inside baseball references #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Structured format with clear transitions and timestamps - Improve: Provide content warnings for discussion of racism and political violence, add sensory break indicators #### Representation - Present: Multiple hosts provide some perspective diversity, discussion includes experiences of marginalized communities - Improve: Include more voices from affected communities directly, expand representation in speaker examples #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful treatment of difficult topics, acknowledgment of legitimate concerns - Improve: Add explicit content warnings, provide resources for further support and discussion ## ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - **Inductive reasoning**: Hosts effectively use specific examples (Rededicate 250, Musk's posts, Gen Z student responses) to identify broader patterns about American Christianity and political religion - **Analogical reasoning**: Strong comparison between current "rededication" event and biblical model in Nehemiah 9 effectively highlights missing elements of repentance and confession - **Causal analysis**: Thoughtful connection between social media exposure and generational theological shifts, though correlation vs. causation could be explored more carefully #### Fallacies - **Hasty generalization**: Some sweeping statements about "Gen Z" based on limited classroom observation could benefit from more systematic evidence - **False dichotomy**: Occasional framing suggests choosing between personal righteousness or social justice, when integration might be possible - **Ad hominem tendency**: While criticism of public figures focuses on actions/statements, some personal characterizations edge toward attacking character rather than arguments #### Tone of voice - **Conversational and analytical**: "It's just not a serious event if it is simply a celebration without any lament" - **Concerned but measured**: "This has been on my list for a couple of weeks. The world's richest man...who may become the next Bond villain" - **Pastoral and teaching-oriented**: "The grace that is available to us in principle has to be available to everyone else" ## 🛡️ DARVO Analysis #### Deny - Implicit denial that Christian nationalism represents genuine faith expression rather than political performance - Musk's rhetoric denies historical context of racial privilege while claiming white persecution #### Attack - Attacks on "woke" culture as threatening Western civilization - Characterization of diversity efforts as discriminatory against white people - Dismissal of concerns about racism as "guilt trips" #### Reverse victim/offender - White replacement rhetoric positions historically privileged group as victims - Christian nationalism frames religious majority as persecuted minority - Claims that efforts toward racial equity constitute racism against whites The analysis reveals how both Christian nationalism and racial grievance politics employ DARVO patterns to reframe power dynamics and avoid accountability for historical and ongoing harms. ## 🎯 Conclusion This Holy Post episode reveals how American Christianity faces a crisis of authenticity as political performance increasingly substitutes for genuine spiritual transformation. The "Rededicate 250" event exemplifies this problem—appropriating biblical language while avoiding biblical substance like confession and repentance. Simultaneously, Elon Musk's platform ownership demonstrates how concentrated media power can amplify harmful racial theories that contradict core Christian principles about human dignity and reconciliation. The generational theological shift toward demanding divine vengeance rather than wrestling with mercy reflects both greater awareness of injustice and concerning comfort with hatred disguised as righteousness. The path forward requires recovering both personal spiritual formation and commitment to biblical justice—refusing the false choice between individual piety and social engagement while maintaining the gospel's central call to love even one's enemies. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### Christian nationalism appropriates biblical language while avoiding biblical substance > [!quote] [Easy Optimism vs Durable Hope with Sharon McMahon (ep. 721)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6RuIIm4irc) by [[The Holy Post]] via [[YouTube]]. Published [MISSING]. Accessed {{date:YYYY-MM-DD}}. > "If you're going to say something like we're going to have a national event and there is no reckoning with our past in the context of renewal." Unlike biblical rededication in Nehemiah 9, political events skip confession and repentance entirely. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6RuIIm4irc&t=720) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_[MISSING] ### Platform ownership significantly amplifies fringe racial theories > [!quote] [Easy Optimism vs Durable Hope with Sharon McMahon (ep. 721)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6RuIIm4irc) > "6% of Musk's posts on X, a total of about 850 have been about race. More than half of those have used the word white." Concentrated media control enables systematic promotion of white replacement narratives to massive audiences. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6RuIIm4irc&t=1110) #xref ID:rw_[MISSING] ### Gen Z Christians prioritize divine judgment over theodicy questions > [!quote] [Easy Optimism vs Durable Hope with Sharon McMahon (ep. 721)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6RuIIm4irc) > "Gen Z isn't asking why bad things happen to good people. Where is God's judgment against oppressors?" Generational shift reflects social media exposure to global suffering and demand for accountability. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6RuIIm4irc&t=2120) #xref ID:rw_[MISSING] --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) #### Political movements provide frameworks for sanctified hatred - All movements communicate who it's morally responsible to hate - Context: discussion of how justice concerns can mask vengeance desires - Links: [[Political-Theology]] [[Moral-Psychology]] #### Social media exposure affects theological development in younger Christians - Digital witness to global suffering shapes questions about divine justice - Context: Gen Z shift from theodicy to demands for judgment - Links: [[Digital-Discipleship]] [[Generational-Theology]] #### Biblical rededication requires confession not just celebration - Nehemiah 9 model includes repentance for national sins before renewal - Context: contrast with "Rededicate 250" political performance - Links: [[Christian-Nationalism]] [[Biblical-Interpretation]] --- ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue (Extract by Selection) - [F1] Research connection between social media algorithms and theological formation — context/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6RuIIm4irc #fleeting #inbox - [F2] Develop intergenerational dialogue resources on justice vs. mercy — context/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6RuIIm4irc #fleeting #inbox - [F3] Analyze platform ownership concentration effects on religious discourse — context/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6RuIIm4irc #fleeting #inbox --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] Welcome to the Holy Post. MAGA [00:02] politicians, pastors, and influencers [00:04] gathered on the National Mall this [00:06] weekend to rededicate America to God. [00:09] Unlike biblical ceremonies of [00:11] rededication, however, this one included [00:13] no repentance or lament. Then, Elon Musk [00:16] is upset that a black woman has been [00:18] cast as Helen of Troy in Christopher [00:20] Nolan's upcoming film, The Odyssey. And [00:22] Sharon McMahon is back to explain how [00:24] political backlash and violent threats [00:26] canled her commencement speech at Utah [00:29] Valley University and why the message [00:31] she planned to deliver is more relevant [00:33] than ever. Also this week, religious [00:36] skeptics used to ask why do bad things [00:38] happen to good people, but Gen Z is [00:40] asking a different question. Why don't [00:43] bad things happen to bad people? On Holy [00:46] Post Plus this week, as always, we have [00:48] a boatload of exclusive subscriberonly [00:50] content. But let me highlight just two [00:52] things. First, Caitlyn has done a bonus [00:54] interview with Sharon McMahon about how [00:56] both those who idolize American history [00:58] and those who demonize American history [01:01] get it wrong and why it's more important [01:03] than ever for us to think wisely about [01:05] our history if we're going to fix the [01:07] challenges we're currently facing. And [01:09] then secondly, we have a new episode of [01:11] Getting Schooled where Caitlyn and I [01:13] discuss a theology of tattoos. That [01:16] conversation goes in some surprising [01:17] directions. It's definitely going to [01:19] spark a lot of comments, so don't miss [01:21] it. But of course, if you don't have [01:22] Holy Post Plus, then you are going to [01:24] miss it along with everything else that [01:26] we're doing like Sharon McMahon's bonus [01:28] interview, full episodes of the Skypod [01:30] every Friday, the Holy Post book club, [01:32] and a whole lot more. So, if you want [01:34] smart pro- neighborh content, head on [01:37] over to holyost.com and sign up for [01:39] Holyost Plus today. Here is episode 721. [01:44] Hey there, welcome back to the Holy Post [01:45] podcast. I'm here with Sky Jatani. Hi, [01:49] Phil. [01:49] >> Hi, Sky. And oh, are you Caitlyn Chess? [01:53] >> I am not. [01:54] >> Oh, you're you're Esau. [01:55] >> Yeah, I'm already married. I'm not [01:56] getting married soon. [01:57] >> Esau McCaulay. [01:58] >> Hey, thank you for having me on the [02:00] podcast. [02:00] >> I'm happy you're here. [02:01] >> Yeah. [02:01] >> And do we know where Caitlyn is? [02:04] >> Uh, we got rid of her for a week [02:05] finally. She Oh, yeah. She was [02:07] threatening to go for weeks and then But [02:10] Mike kept saying the wrong thing. [02:12] >> Yeah, it was my fault. over and over [02:14] again saying, "Oh, I don't think she's [02:16] here this week." And then I would change [02:18] all my plans and then I'd find out, [02:20] "Nope, she was here." [02:21] >> Does he have a mic over there? [02:22] >> I do. I have a mic over here. [02:24] >> Oh, look at that. [02:25] >> No, you miked them up, too. [02:27] >> Yeah. Well, you you have him in close. [02:29] You keep your enemies close. I think is [02:32] how you work that [ __ ] [02:34] >> Yeah. I thought I could insult him [02:35] without him being able to do like a [02:36] comeback. I didn't realize he just [02:38] tossing takes from the sidelines [02:40] >> over here. He saw I have the power to [02:41] mute your mic. [02:42] >> Oh, yeah. [02:43] >> Okay. Here we go. [02:44] >> So, it could it could get worse [02:46] >> if you don't behave. And now it's time [02:48] for the theme song. [02:51] >> What's the news that you like the most? [02:54] Who's your favorite podcast host? If [02:57] it's breakfast, get your toast. It's [03:00] Sky, Caitlyn, and the Holy Post. Sky, [03:03] Caitlyn, and the Holy Post. And [03:06] sometimes other people. [03:11] Holy Post is sponsored by Policy Genius. [03:14] Summertime for me means lots of time [03:16] making memories with my wife, my kids, [03:18] and my grandkids. And that reminds me [03:20] just how many people rely on me, which [03:22] makes me think, um, do I need to check [03:24] on my life insurance policy? Though I've [03:26] had life insurance for a long time, I [03:28] wasn't sure how to compare prices and [03:30] policies until I found Policy Genius. [03:32] It's an online insurance marketplace [03:34] that allows you to compare quotes from [03:36] some of America's top insurers side by [03:38] side for free. I've tried it. It's easy. [03:41] Their licensed team helps you get what [03:43] you need fast so you can get back to [03:45] summer fun. Easily find what you need. [03:47] Coverage amounts, prices, terms. No [03:49] guesswork, just clarity. Protect your [03:51] family with a policy that grows with [03:53] your life. With Policy Genius, you can [03:55] find 20-year life insurance policies [03:57] starting at just $275 [04:00] a year for $1 million in coverage. Head [04:02] to policygenius.com/holyost [04:05] to compare life insurance quotes from [04:07] top companies and see how much you could [04:09] save. That's policygenius.com/holypost. [04:13] Holyost is sponsored by betterhelp. I've [04:16] experienced financial stress and I've [04:18] seen how it can affect my sleep, my [04:20] mental health, even my relationships. [04:22] 88% of Americans reported feeling [04:24] financial stress at the start of 2026. [04:27] And rising prices for gas and other [04:28] things aren't helping. This month, [04:30] BetterHelp wants to remind you that help [04:32] is available. No, talking with a [04:34] therapist doesn't put money in your bank [04:36] account or lower the price of gas, but [04:38] it can help you handle the stress by [04:39] building healthier coping strategies and [04:41] relationships with money and the people [04:43] around you. With more than 30,000 [04:45] licensed therapists, BetterHelp is the [04:47] world's largest online therapy platform. [04:50] A short questionnaire will match you [04:51] with a therapist, and you're free to [04:53] switch therapists at any time. Money [04:55] doesn't grow on trees, but help with [04:57] financial stress is within reach. Take [04:59] the first step today. When life feels [05:01] overwhelming, therapy can help. Sign up [05:03] to get 10% off at [05:05] betterhelp.com/holyost. [05:08] That's betterhp.com/holyost. [05:12] >> Okay. What's going on? I have a story um [05:15] that I'm going to save because Caitlyn's [05:19] not here. [05:19] >> Okay. [05:20] >> And it was a story that a whole bunch of [05:23] y'all sent in saying, "Oh, did you see [05:26] this one?" [05:27] >> Made the rounds, huh? [05:28] >> It made the rounds. And I said, "Oh, [05:30] yeah. I better Okay. It's what the [05:32] people want, but it's not fun if [05:34] Caitlyn's not here. But don't tell [05:36] Caitlyn. Don't Don't I don't want her to [05:38] know that when she comes back, it's [05:42] news. It's news of the butt. [05:43] >> Oh, [05:44] >> that's why Esau. It's It's not a [05:46] statement about you. It's a statement [05:48] about [05:48] >> I don't. [05:49] >> So, you're saving news of the butt for [05:50] Caitlyn? Yes. Oh, [05:52] >> it makes her uncomfortable. [05:53] >> I don't like it either. So, I'm really [05:55] glad that [05:55] >> Don't tell [05:56] >> I'm glad that she's going to miss it. [05:57] >> Don't tell She's not going to miss it. [05:59] >> Don't tell Caitlyn. Do you feel America [06:02] is different today? Does it feel Does [06:06] the country feel different today than [06:09] than Saturday? Would you like go back 48 [06:12] hours? [06:12] >> It's wetter around here. [06:13] >> It feels a little dediced. I think [06:15] >> you feel it. It's more dedicated. [06:17] >> I was walking I I was walking like just [06:19] down the road. I think someone did the [06:21] sign of the cross just randomly. [06:22] >> Yeah. Yeah. Uhhuh. And the pope had [06:25] lunch right next to us. Right down the [06:26] road. [06:27] >> That was a few years ago. [06:29] Um, rededicate 250 was a service on [06:33] Sunday. We're recording this on Monday, [06:36] so it's yesterday. It's still fresh. [06:38] There's a fresh anointing of the Holy [06:39] Spirit. I think over over I noticed it [06:42] on Roosevelt Road when I was driving [06:44] down to come here just now is just it [06:47] felt redicated. [06:48] >> Is it going out like a shock wave from [06:50] Washington DC spreading throughout the [06:51] country? [06:52] >> Yes. Yes, it is. And it's And if you're [06:54] an atheist, it just knocks you down. Oh, [06:56] >> it just it just knocks you. Right. Right [06:58] to the sidewalk. And you say, "What [07:00] happened?" [07:01] >> Rededicate 250. [07:02] >> Rededicate 250. Trump allies lead [07:04] thousands in prayer to rededicate [07:05] America to God on the National Mall. The [07:08] House Speaker Mike Johnson [07:11] prayed this. Just as we in the beginning [07:13] dedicated this land to your most holy [07:15] name, I think Columbus did that, didn't [07:18] he? But it wasn't this land. [07:19] >> Is he talking about that beginning? [07:20] >> I don't I [07:23] 1776. What beginning is he talking [07:25] about? If it's the 250, then he should [07:28] be talking about 1776. But I don't think [07:31] we dedicated this land to God's name in [07:33] 17 in the Declaration of Independence. [07:35] >> Uh, no. No. Or in the Constitution where [07:38] he's not mentioned at all. [07:39] >> Yeah. But that wasn't 250. No. But [07:41] >> just as we in the beginning dedicated [07:43] this land to your most holy name, today [07:44] here, Lord, in this 250th year of [07:47] American independence, we hereby [07:49] rededicate the United States of America [07:52] as one nation under God. It's like one [07:55] of those uh marriage [07:57] >> marriage reedic what's it called? A [07:59] recommmitment. [08:00] >> Renewal of vows. [08:01] >> Renewal of vows. We've renewed [08:03] >> our vows to God. [08:06] >> A lot of people were there. [08:07] >> Not that many. [08:08] >> Mo well I'm just the speakers and [08:11] >> Yeah. [08:11] >> Like [08:12] >> the platform people. [08:13] >> Yeah. The platform people including our [08:15] old buddy Eric Mataxis. [08:16] >> Yeah. [08:17] >> Oh [08:17] >> guest on episode number one. [08:20] >> Do we want to keep sharing that? [08:21] >> Oh wow. [08:23] >> You didn't know that? That was before I [08:24] was working here. [08:25] >> Yes, it was. [08:26] >> It was early on. [08:27] >> It was It was before he changed. Was it [08:30] though? [08:31] >> Was it though? [08:31] >> Well, he was half Okay, I don't know. [08:33] >> Never mind. We won't litigate that. [08:35] >> So, he spoke um he he tweeted a picture [08:38] standing with I don't know if you saw [08:40] this picture. He was standing with Greg [08:43] Lockach, the controversial Tennessee [08:46] pastor. [08:47] >> Um very Christian nationalist. Sean Fo, [08:50] the controversial Christian nationalist [08:52] worship leader. [08:53] >> Oh, [08:54] >> and [08:55] >> what he leads worship toward is [08:56] questionable. [08:57] >> And um Mark Driscoll. [09:00] >> Oh, yeah. [09:00] >> The controversial not necessarily [09:02] Christian nationalist, just not a good [09:04] guy. [09:06] >> Um disgraced pastor. So that was that [09:08] was kind of the crowd. That was the [09:10] crowd. Dutch Sheets was there. Do you [09:12] know Dutch Sheets? [09:13] >> I This is not my This is [09:15] >> Is that a wrote? [09:17] >> I have no idea who that is. Is that a [09:18] linen brand? [09:19] >> It should be, but it isn't. It's uh one [09:22] of the leaders of the New Apostolic [09:24] Reformation movement. Uh goodness. [09:27] >> In that little circle of people that [09:29] spent all of 2020 and 2024 [09:34] >> prophesying about what was going to [09:36] happen and mostly being wrong. But but [09:39] this this is the circle of people that [09:42] developed the seven mountain mandate um [09:45] and that also developed the idea they [09:48] workshopped this and then they launched [09:49] it successfully that Donald Trump wasn't [09:52] a Christian but he was a Cyrus figure. [09:54] So the idea of Trump as Cyrus came out [09:56] of the new apostolic reformation circle. [10:00] So it seemed to be more that crowd. [10:02] There were a were a couple of Catholics, [10:05] zero mainline Protestant representation. [10:10] Couple of Catholics, one rabbi. It's [10:13] kind of a joke. Two Catholics, a rabbi, [10:15] and 48 right-wing evangelicals walk into [10:20] the National Mall. [10:21] >> Yes. [10:21] >> And what comes out of it? We are [10:23] rededicated to God. [10:24] >> Yeah. There's actually, and we want to [10:27] do at least I want to say we know that [10:29] America isn't like Israel and that like [10:31] we're not the chosen nation. Do we [10:32] though? [10:32] >> Yeah, I'm going to at least that's I'm [10:34] going to say theologically that's true [10:35] before. [10:35] >> I'm not sure we do. [10:37] >> Okay, then maybe we don't. We think that [10:38] we are. If we were, there's actually a [10:40] model of a rededication or renewal of [10:44] the covenant that's actually in the [10:45] Bible. You know where this occurs? [10:46] >> Oh, tell me. [10:47] >> You know what, you know, Nehemiah, [10:49] right? They read the law. [10:51] >> But what do they do though in in in [10:53] addition to reading the law? [10:54] >> There's a lot of sacrifices [10:55] >> and there's a big part repentance and [10:58] confession of their sins, right? [11:00] >> But we don't have any. That's what I'm [11:01] saying. Like they said in sorry in and [11:02] for those of you who don't know, you [11:03] read this in Nehemiah 9. Nehemiah goes, [11:06] "We made a mess of things. We worship [11:08] idols. We did all of this other stuff [11:09] and things went poorly for us and we're [11:11] suffering. And now we want to say sorry [11:13] about that, God. Now let us renew our [11:16] commitment by turning from our ways and [11:19] and running towards the Lord." Now, [11:21] obviously, we're not in the same kind of [11:22] covenant like that we are with like the [11:24] blessings and curses promises in the Old [11:26] Testament. But if you're going to say [11:27] something like we're going to have a [11:29] national event and there is no reckoning [11:32] with our past in the context of renewal. [11:34] So for example, hey, we kind of came and [11:36] stole this land and killed a bunch of [11:38] people and enslaved people. That wasn't [11:40] the best thing. Sorry about that. [11:42] >> But that's when we were dedicated to [11:44] God. [11:44] >> That's what I'm saying. [11:45] >> That's before we undedicated in the [11:47] 1960s. [11:48] >> And the only people that need to repent [11:50] are Democrats and they're not real [11:51] Americans anyway. [11:53] >> So Okay. So this that just like I get it [11:56] when I know like it's just not a serious [11:58] event. [11:59] >> Yeah. [11:59] >> If it is simply a celebration without [12:02] any lament. And maybe [12:04] >> Franklin Graham brought the lament. [12:06] >> Okay. Go ahead. [12:07] >> Okay. Franklin Graham preached remotely [12:11] via video and said, "America has become [12:14] morally rotten, completely sick with [12:16] sin." [12:17] >> Yes. Okay. [12:17] >> Just recently, we've become morally [12:19] rotten, completely sick with sin. Here's [12:22] here's Do you want to know what how he [12:24] knows this? Because we have [12:25] transgenderism, we have same-sex [12:28] marriage, and we are opening women's [12:29] locker rooms to men. [12:32] >> And that's just the tip of the iceberg. [12:34] >> So, it's crotch Christianity. [12:35] >> Yeah. And so, and that's all relatively [12:37] recent. So, that that's why we have to [12:39] rededicate [12:41] >> because of LGBT stuff is where we've [12:45] gone astray as a nation, [12:47] >> right? Because prior generations didn't [12:49] have any deviation from [12:52] >> they didn't have sin as much as they [12:54] made some mistakes [12:56] >> but [12:56] >> like by enslaving an entire group of [12:59] people. [12:59] >> Yeah. [12:59] >> And like massacring some of people [13:01] >> but we shared our faith with them. [13:03] >> Okay. You're right. Thank you for [13:04] talking about that. [13:04] >> And there were economic interest there [13:06] by all. I mean come on. I know. It's [13:08] just that like I like at this point [13:11] >> this consistent like it's almost like [13:12] you if you think if you have the [13:15] microphone as if we don't have the [13:17] internet [13:18] >> is that people don't actually understand [13:19] like if I hold an event my event [13:22] determines truth is the part that's [13:24] frustrating. [13:25] >> But Esau I I know I know what you're [13:27] trying to say because we have the [13:28] internet and because you can find [13:30] anything on the internet. I think these [13:32] organizers and some of the voices on [13:34] these platforms understand that there [13:35] are people who want to hear this [13:37] message. [13:37] >> Play the hits. [13:38] >> Play the hits. People want to hear this [13:39] message and the people who want to hear [13:40] it, there it is for them and they're [13:42] happy to. [13:43] >> And the message is [13:46] >> uh America was founded in God's name and [13:51] walked with him until quite recently [13:55] >> uh 2016 [13:58] >> when it when it became negative world. [13:59] Oh, 2008. [14:01] >> Was it the 1960s? [14:02] >> Yeah. Well, it started in the 1960s with [14:04] feminism. Um, and we used to say civil [14:08] rights, but now we say no, no, no, that [14:09] was fine. That was fine. Although [14:11] Charlie Kirk says the Civil Rights Act [14:13] was a big mistake because it led to [14:15] discrimination against white people. Um, [14:17] which seems to be coming up a lot as a [14:19] theme. [14:19] >> I mean, civil rights we talk I mean, so [14:21] we just we just undid the civil rights [14:23] like the major legislative event, [14:26] >> the voting article two. [14:27] >> Yeah, that's a Well, yeah. Okay. Mhm. [14:29] Yeah. That's a whole different That's a [14:31] whole different story. Here's my So, [14:32] here's my question. You both [14:34] >> Yeah. [14:35] >> are are either current or former [14:37] pastors. Yes. [14:38] >> So, you can help me with this. [14:39] >> Okay. [14:41] >> The people that were there and the ones [14:44] that spoke, what do they think is going [14:47] to happen because of this? [14:50] >> Oh, that's easy. They're going to make [14:52] more money. [14:53] >> Okay. The people that were there in [14:55] attendance. [14:56] >> Oh, okay. What do they think is going to [14:58] happen? Because the speaker of the house [15:00] said we rededicate our nation to God. [15:04] >> If my people who are called by my name [15:06] will humble themselves and pray, then I [15:09] will heal their land. [15:10] >> Yeah, that's the that's the passage that [15:12] President Trump read. [15:13] >> That's what they think is going to [15:14] happen [15:15] >> via video. So we pray and so our land [15:18] will be healed which means locker rooms [15:21] will be closed to cross [15:24] >> well for for those who have truly [15:26] integrated their faith and their [15:27] politics they think it means that their [15:29] political enemies will lose power [15:32] >> and they will have more influence over [15:34] the culture and the government [15:35] themselves [15:35] >> and the seven mountains [15:37] >> right [15:37] >> yeah what do I think they think [15:39] >> yeah what do they think [15:40] >> I mean it's hard for me to get inside of [15:43] someone else's mind but Try try real [15:46] hard. [15:47] >> I think there is this hope that there [15:50] will be some proof of concept that comes [15:52] out of the last 8 to 10 years. [15:55] Effectively, if there is a revival, an [15:57] increase in church attendance and [15:58] increase in holiness and increase in [15:59] pursuit of God, then it makes all of the [16:03] moral compromises that were necessary to [16:05] support some of the things this [16:06] administration was doing was worth it. [16:08] >> And so, it's almost like they need a [16:10] revival occur. And so they're searching [16:11] for tons of information even though most [16:13] studies show that you know church [16:14] attendance is roughly the same and there [16:16] hasn't been this but they need there [16:18] there has to be a revival because if [16:20] there isn't a revival then you sold your [16:23] like sense of self for for nothing. And [16:26] so that's what I think is happening. I [16:27] think there's a there's I've never seen [16:29] people argue about a revival as much as [16:32] I've seen. Normally when a revival is [16:33] happening it's kind of [16:35] >> like oh wow look and like you don't just [16:37] keep going. We're going to launch the [16:38] revival today. Oh, we're going to launch [16:40] it tomorrow. We keep launching the [16:41] revival. And so, I think they're trying [16:43] to manufacture a spiritual renewal that [16:46] is ultimately under the timing of God [16:48] that they can ne they can't necessarily [16:50] control. [16:50] >> Yeah. [16:51] >> And is that because all the other [16:52] promises that they were given have not [16:55] worked out. Yeah. [16:56] >> I mean, they were promised we're going [16:57] to get rid of abortion. Abortion rates [16:59] are up. They were promised no more wars. [17:01] We've entered more wars. Uh we're going [17:04] to get a handle on inflation and the [17:05] economy, and it's absolutely out out of [17:08] control. like everything else they [17:09] wanted from this administration has not [17:11] worked out. So the last the last [17:14] possibility is all that's okay if we get [17:17] a spiritual revival [17:18] >> that I mean [17:20] I don't understand what the either that [17:22] or it is simply a performance to like [17:25] continue to keep your base engaged. [17:28] That's the other [17:29] >> I think that's probably a lot of it. I [17:31] was surprised to read that Donald Trump [17:33] did not speak at this event. [17:35] >> Did not attend. [17:36] >> He did not attend. [17:36] >> Well, he spoke. They played a recording [17:38] from another event. [17:39] >> Yeah. But that's what's so hysterical is [17:40] not he not only wasn't there, he [17:42] recorded a message that was played. He [17:46] didn't even record it for this event. [17:49] >> Yeah. [17:49] >> It was the replay of what he did a [17:51] couple weeks ago for that Bible reading [17:53] day. [17:53] >> He was at at a golf thing. [17:55] >> Yeah. He was in a like it just shows he [17:57] does not care about his white [17:58] evangelical supporters. These are not [18:00] the people he is going to accommodate to [18:02] even one day off the golf course. and he [18:05] just recycled an old videotape. [18:07] Basically, that's how little he cared to [18:09] engage this audience. What what was [18:11] interesting about this event was there [18:14] was zero attempt to make it a broad a [18:18] big tent, right? You know, not even for [18:20] all evangelicals. [18:21] >> Yeah, but they had a they had a rabbi, [18:23] Phil. [18:23] >> They had a rabbi, but it's not even even [18:25] the the choices of evangelical speakers, [18:28] the most important thing is that they [18:29] were MAGA. So, so this wasn't, you know, [18:33] you were an adviser of Trump or you were [18:36] a very loud supporter [18:38] >> of Trump to get to speak here. [18:41] >> So, [18:42] >> you had to be pro ballroom, too. [18:43] >> We've we've [18:45] and pro ballroom. Eric Mataxis said he [18:48] was being sarcastic, but it sure sounded [18:50] like he was being serious when he said, [18:52] "God raised up been waiting 200 years [18:55] for a man who could build that [18:56] ballroom." Eric has a a tendency to use [18:59] sarcasm and it doesn't always land. [19:01] >> Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't. So, what was I [19:05] saying? I don't remember. [19:07] >> You a narrow segment of faith leaders. [19:10] >> Yeah. So, it was a slice like if you're [19:12] if you're featuring, you know, the the [19:14] new apostolic reformation guys who are [19:17] primarily YouTube personalities. That's [19:21] where that whole movement really lives [19:23] is on YouTube. Um, it's it's influencers [19:26] and YouTube personalities [19:29] that are all outspoken supporters of the [19:32] current administration, which seems to [19:35] have less to do with our 250th [19:38] anniversary and more to do with what's a [19:42] certain group of people are trying to [19:44] accomplish right now in this political [19:45] moment. [19:45] >> Then buckle up, Phil, because I think [19:47] the entire 250th anniversary plan is [19:50] going to be all about Trump. I'm Yeah, [19:52] I'm not I I Do either of you remember [19:54] the 200th? [19:56] >> I was born that year. [19:57] >> Okay. You don't remember? [19:58] >> I was not alive yet. [19:59] >> You were not alive yet. I remember the [20:00] 200th. Um and it just [20:03] >> it's the bicesentennial, Phil. [20:05] >> Yeah, it was the bsentennial. This one [20:07] is the semiquitentennial. [20:10] The semiquincentennial, [20:12] I think, is the actual name. [20:13] >> I know 150 is susquentennial. [20:15] >> Yeah, whatever. All right. [20:17] >> Whatever. [20:18] Anyway, the the bicesentennial was not [20:21] partisan and it was not religious. It [20:25] was just us being happy about America, [20:26] right? [20:27] >> I was there. I remember time. [20:29] >> It was a simpler time. Okay. Um the [20:32] >> I'm trying to count back to what year [20:33] that was. [20:34] >> 1976. [20:35] >> 76. [20:36] >> I wonder how simple it was in 76. [20:38] >> No, actually we we were [20:40] >> for white people in Iowa. It was pretty [20:41] simple. There's no we just come through [20:43] the OPEC oil crisis in 74 and Watergate [20:47] in 73. So, and I remember those things [20:50] too. I remember how high gas prices got. [20:52] >> It's just funny that you can say [20:53] Watergate was simpler times. [20:55] >> It was though. I'm not saying he said [20:57] that. No, but that's when our [20:58] politicians had a sense of shame. [20:59] >> Yeah, I know. I There is something [21:01] fundamentally different. So, I was just [21:02] giving you a hard time. Yeah, you're [21:04] right. [21:04] >> Yeah. No, give him a hard time. [21:05] >> Yeah, you a hard time. There we go. [21:07] >> The Holy Post is sponsored by Rocket [21:09] Money. I was having a hard time figuring [21:11] out where our money was going. [21:13] Subscriptions to streaming services, [21:15] gaming sites, news sites, Bible apps, [21:17] music services. It was out of control. [21:19] One point, we had three subscriptions to [21:21] the same app. Then I found Rocket Money. [21:23] Not only can Rocket Money identify all [21:25] of our subscriptions. In many cases, it [21:28] can cancel them for you. Just click a [21:30] button. Done. But it does way more than [21:32] that, helping me track all our expenses [21:34] so I know where our money is going every [21:36] month. Do I still have a lot of [21:38] subscriptions? I do, but they're the [21:40] ones I want. 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Located in the heart of [23:21] Northwestern's campus, just a short [23:23] train ride from Chicago. Let our city be [23:26] your training ground. Garrett also [23:27] offers fully online and hybrid programs. [23:31] Apply by July 15th to begin a master's [23:33] degree this fall. Learn more at [23:36] garrett.edu/holyost. [23:40] Um, I just wanted to mention this. This [23:42] has been on my list for a couple of [23:43] weeks. The world's richest man. [23:45] >> Yeah. [23:46] >> Elon Musk. [23:46] >> Yeah. who may become um [23:50] >> the next Bond villain. [23:51] >> No, he may become a trillionaire. [23:52] >> Oh, [23:53] >> he's on um SpaceX is about to go public [23:56] and it's expected to be one of the [23:58] largest public offerings in history and [24:00] that it could push him over a trillion [24:02] dollar personal fortune. [24:04] >> I'm so happy for him. [24:06] >> Elon Musk, the world's richest person on [24:08] the cusp of record setting initial [24:10] public offering that could make him a [24:11] trillionaire. And in recent months, he's [24:12] been increasingly vocal about something [24:14] else. rallying white people to stand up [24:17] for their race. [24:18] >> Yeah, [24:18] >> this is a little disturbing. [24:20] >> Uh, whites are a rapidly dying minority. [24:24] >> Yeah, [24:24] >> I am so rapidly dying. [24:26] >> Like it feels like every year I'm a [24:28] little bit closer. [24:29] >> Yeah. [24:30] >> Uh, Musk wrote in January in a post on [24:32] his social media site X, the fact that [24:34] he owns one of the major social media [24:36] sites certainly adds to concern of his [24:40] personal ethics and morality. Uh, that [24:43] comment has garnered more than 17 [24:44] million views and 150,000 likes. In a [24:47] February post liked by more than 365,000 [24:50] people, Musk declared that there's been [24:52] an unrelenting oh, there has been [24:54] unrelenting hate and poisonous [24:56] propaganda in the West against anyone [24:59] white, straight or male, over the past [25:01] decade or more, adding, "No more guilt [25:04] trips. Enough. We white, we straight [25:08] white men will refuse to be guilted." [25:11] When I think of the issues that I and [25:13] many other people have with Elon Musk, [25:15] it has nothing to do with the fact that [25:16] he is straight, male, or white. [25:19] >> No, none of the issues. [25:20] >> No. Um, over the past 7 months, 6% of [25:23] Musk's posts on X, a total of about 850 [25:27] have been about race. More than half of [25:29] those have used the word white. He's [25:31] posted on X about race almost daily, [25:35] 166 days out of 197 from last October to [25:40] midappril. Suddenly he cannot stop [25:43] talking and he's repeating little bits [25:45] from the far right, you know, because [25:47] I'll see other people saying the same [25:49] things and then he'll sometimes pick [25:51] them up and and repeat them [25:53] >> and magnify them [25:54] >> and it's concerning. Is it Do you do you [25:57] find it concerning? [25:58] >> Yeah. I mean, did there was the one that [26:00] I was talking about? Is it Leita? [26:03] >> Yeah. Yeah. So, [26:04] >> yeah. Lepita Nongo. [26:07] >> Yeah. Yeah. So, she she's staring as [26:09] Helen um [26:10] >> Helen of Troy, but she's not. That's [26:13] just just come out. She's playing a [26:14] different character. [26:15] >> Oh, she is. [26:15] >> Oh, really? Can we know for sure? [26:17] >> I'll I'll tell you. Okay. Yeah. [26:18] >> So, he was upset that she was cast in um [26:22] like uh [26:23] >> the Odyssey. [26:24] >> The Odyssey [26:25] >> by Christopher Nolan. Let's get all the [26:26] background. Christopher Nolan, one of [26:28] our greatest filmmakers, big budget [26:30] Odyssey. Um Matt Damon is playing [26:34] Odysius. Is that who it is about? Yeah. [26:36] Yeah. What is it? [26:37] >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's Matt Damon. [26:39] >> I don't remember. It's Yeah, Matt Damon. [26:41] Is he even Greek? [26:43] >> And so, the point is like having a black [26:45] woman, I don't whether this is true or [26:47] not. This was the discourse, having a [26:49] black woman be um portrayed as being [26:51] beautiful enough to inspire these wars [26:53] was clearly ridiculous. And so, he's [26:56] been posting pictures of her [26:58] >> from when she was playing a slave, a [27:01] slave, an enslaved woman, and I think it [27:03] was a slave. And it's like, look how [27:05] unattractive she is. And so you have and [27:08] blatantly racist, right? Because there's [27:10] tons of pictures of her that exist on [27:11] the internet. You could have showed [27:12] another picture and they and so and even [27:14] the idea that a dark-kinned black woman [27:17] could be seen as attractive to the [27:19] entire world there. He's presenting it [27:21] like the the mere fact of who she is [27:23] makes it clear this is a ridiculous [27:25] idea. And so you do have like a a [27:28] strange focus on race and in particular [27:30] race as relates to standards of beauty [27:32] that him and a bunch of other people are [27:34] picking up on. [27:34] >> Okay. We were both right and we were [27:36] both wrong. [27:37] >> Oh. [27:38] >> Lupita Nuongo is set to play two [27:40] important characters in the Odyssey [27:41] along with portraying the famous Helen [27:43] of Troy. [27:43] >> Yeah. [27:44] >> The actress will also play Helen's [27:46] sister [27:47] >> Clemenestra. Is that how you say? [27:48] Clement whatever some. Yeah. So she's [27:51] playing two characters. [27:52] >> Were they twins in the history? I don't [27:55] know. Well, I mean, this less less [27:57] relevant than the racism. [27:58] >> I think that's even more offensive. But [28:00] like the whole family is a black woman. [28:02] >> The same black woman. [28:03] >> The same black woman. What's that? [28:05] People everywhere. [28:06] >> I Okay. [28:07] >> Because she'd been A SLAVE FOR 12 YEARS. [28:09] >> I don't know if Elon Musk tweeted about [28:11] this at the time, but you remember when [28:12] Rings of Power that Amazon series based [28:15] on the Lord of the Rings simmerely and [28:16] stuff like that, people flipped out [28:18] because there was a black elf [28:19] >> and people were mad about black uh black [28:21] snake. Black snake too. [28:22] >> Oh, yeah. Black Snape is another one, [28:24] right? But these are all fictional [28:26] characters. [28:27] >> You're erasing my culture. [28:28] >> Yeah. [28:29] >> Hobbit culture. [28:31] No, Western civilization. This this [28:34] battle over over civilizations [28:37] has has so captivated the far right. You [28:41] know, that we are in a knockdown, [28:43] dragged out, allin battle to save [28:47] Western civilization. [28:48] >> Here's the thing. If you really wanted [28:49] to preserve quote unquote western [28:51] civilization, maybe western civilization [28:53] shouldn't have colonized the rest of the [28:54] world. So that now all those places are [28:56] coming back to the west [28:58] >> only because of our suicidal empathy. If [29:01] we didn't care, we colonized them, but [29:04] we shouldn't have started caring about [29:05] them because now they want to come and [29:09] open up a Pakistani restaurant right [29:11] down the street from me and I don't like [29:12] it. Maybe maybe I missed this because I [29:14] was looking up her character while you [29:15] guys were talking, but like okay, Helen [29:17] of Troy famously, even people who don't [29:19] know anything about Greek mythology [29:20] knows that she's supposed to be [29:21] beautiful. [29:22] >> Yeah. [29:22] >> By any objective standard, Leita No is a [29:26] beautiful woman. What [29:27] >> is she Greek? [29:28] >> But Helen of Troy wasn't Greek. Troy [29:31] wasn't [29:31] >> of course we criticized we criticized [29:33] Greek women for being sworthy. So we [29:36] didn't we want we want a Swedish Greek. [29:38] >> I'm just saying like I I could [29:40] understand the fury of if Nolan had [29:42] drafted some woman or cast some woman [29:44] who was clearly not beautiful, but she [29:47] is. [29:47] >> I think I think that you have we have [29:49] this weird thing that and this is we [29:51] were talking about this earlier. There's [29:53] been this weird return to the ability to [29:57] sexualize and objectify women in an [30:00] attempt to fight wokeness. And so you [30:03] see this in the evangelical evangelical. [30:05] So you the whole point is [30:06] >> I don't think we ever stopped [30:08] objectifying women [30:10] within Christian context. So what they [30:12] have is like here is a what people will [30:14] see of a traditionally beautiful blonde [30:15] woman with a certain build and they will [30:18] put this like they'll put the picture up [30:19] and go clearly this is what we all want [30:21] and then they put the black woman up and [30:23] go clearly this isn't what we want and I [30:24] like well hold on aren't we supposed to [30:26] like not be lusting after people but [30:28] they're saying no this is the woman that [30:29] we should be lusting after in this [30:31] fictional film not this woman [30:33] >> cuz this is the beauty that God created [30:35] >> this is the one that the garden yeah any [30:37] picture I've ever seen of Eve she's [30:39] white [30:39] >> yeah and so what I'm saying like not all [30:41] that attractive for him. She doesn't [30:43] shave. [30:44] >> People People are putting these y'all [30:46] like you're not I'm going to make a real [30:48] point. [30:49] My there you have this thing where the [30:53] racism and the sexism are showing at the [30:55] exact same time because there's a [30:57] constant fight over who we're allowed to [31:00] be attracted to. [31:01] >> Yeah. [31:02] >> And the fact that the black woman I mean [31:04] they're not even making an argument. [31:05] They're just saying clear dark-kinned [31:07] black woman. Nobody likes her. everybody [31:10] likes this other woman. And and there's [31:12] a part of like Christianity or [31:14] evangelical Christianity that is saying [31:17] in the battle against wokeism, I see [31:19] what Elon Musk is doing as an ally. And [31:22] part of it is the this idea of racial [31:24] fatigue that he's saying, "Hey, [31:26] >> all of the work that we've done to kind [31:28] of end racism, it made me feel not great [31:31] about myself sometimes [31:32] >> as a as a South African raised in a [31:34] parttheid." And so what I'm going to do [31:36] is I'm going to I'm going to like I'm [31:38] going to shut off any concerns about [31:40] empa empathy or propriety or anything [31:43] and I'm just going to kind of fight for [31:45] my own. And because he seems to be [31:47] pushing back on things that are [31:49] leftcoded, people are ignoring the [31:51] blatantly racist stuff. I mean it seems [31:53] like some Christians somewhere ought to [31:55] have gone, hey this guy seems to be [31:58] putting forward the elements of the [32:00] great replacement theory that he's [32:01] afraid that white people are being [32:02] replaced. And it is that idea that we [32:05] need to save like white civilization. [32:08] >> He's an immigrant. [32:09] >> I know what I'm saying. The fact that [32:11] >> he's a product of uh you know South [32:13] Africa. [32:14] >> He's a white immigrant. [32:15] >> Yes. South Africa. That's why we can [32:17] only accept refugees from Africa if [32:19] they're white South Africans because [32:21] they they can do Western civilization [32:24] >> because they don't have melanin. [32:26] >> Because they're white. [32:27] >> That's so dumb. [32:29] I [32:30] >> Here's the thing. Yeah. Okay. [32:33] I'm assuming Elon M I mean he had the [32:35] whole Doge thing. He's obviously been [32:37] big partner with Donald Trump and all [32:38] that stuff. I'm assuming he's a big fan [32:39] of like deregulation, keeping government [32:42] out of business and let me do what I [32:44] want. [32:44] >> Yes. [32:45] >> Shouldn't he be like celebrating the [32:47] fact that Christopher Nolan is making [32:48] the film he wants to make [32:50] >> and he's casting the actors he wants to [32:52] cast and just let him be? [32:54] >> He believes Christopher Nolan had to do [32:56] this to qualify for an Oscar because the [32:58] Academy has diversity requirements now [33:01] that they added read up on that. [33:03] >> Yeah, I I I also read up on that. [33:05] >> And that's not it's a total [33:07] misinterpretation of [33:09] >> Variety wrote a piece on it and and said [33:11] that every Academy Award best picture [33:15] film since the beginning would [33:17] technically qualify [33:19] >> under the new standards. So there's no [33:21] reason, and that seems hard to believe, [33:23] but they did the math and said it's [33:25] true. Um, so there was would be no [33:28] reason for Christopher Nolan to have had [33:30] to change any casting to qualify for an [33:33] Academy Award. He could have an all [33:36] Greek cast. He didn't want one. [33:38] >> Right. [33:38] >> You mentioned you mentioned like X [33:41] >> and I know we're always I mean people [33:43] always announcing leaving stuff and [33:46] coming back and doing this and doing [33:47] that. Is there any place where you can [33:50] say, "Hey, the person who owns this [33:52] company isn't doing like quasi racist [33:55] stuff, but there's some places that are [33:57] like full problematic." [33:59] >> Is there any place you kind of say, [34:00] "Okay, this is the person who's [34:01] controlling the algorithm." Then maybe [34:04] this isn't the best place to have [34:06] Christian discourse. [34:07] >> Oh, [34:07] >> I'm not saying that like we should go to [34:09] Threads or we should go to Blue Sky and [34:11] have the opposite kind of [34:12] >> We're all going to be on YouTube, baby. [34:14] >> We should all just go to YouTube. [34:15] Christian fight it out in the comments. [34:18] Are you is this a subtle way to try to [34:19] get Phil off of X? [34:20] >> I mean, [34:21] >> or are you announcing that you're [34:23] launching your own social media [34:24] platform? [34:26] >> I don't know if I got I don't know if I [34:27] got the pull to start my own social [34:28] media platform, but I I have I have [34:31] found like that everyone knows this. We [34:35] don't need to go into another like [34:37] what's the state of Twitter [34:38] conversation, but it is more of a kind [34:40] of MAGA controlled space. [34:42] >> It's a cess poolool. [34:43] >> Yeah. And so it feels like you you can [34:46] feel that you are if you're not fully on [34:49] board with a certain way of being and [34:51] there's certain people who are currently [34:52] flourishing on on X that if you're not a [34:56] part of that you you feel the fact that [34:58] you're different [34:59] >> and that's what I say I noticed about X [35:01] you know this far into the Elon era he [35:04] has remade it into a white right I would [35:07] say not white right friend I can't say [35:10] the word right friendly space [35:12] >> I think Esau saw as a black man on X, [35:14] you are feeling exactly what the [35:17] algorithm wants you to feel. [35:19] >> Yeah, I that's the reason I like I I [35:20] don't I don't have a lot of back and [35:22] forth there anymore. [35:22] >> Okay. All right. Enough about that. [35:25] Okay. [35:25] >> We're not We're not happy about it, [35:26] though, are we, guys? [35:27] >> I'm going to go see The Odyssey, and I'm [35:29] I'm [35:29] >> We're three cranky men of various shades [35:32] of melanin. [35:33] >> There we go. [35:35] >> Um, Jenzers. [35:38] Jenzers. [35:39] Jared Dobson teaches biblical studies [35:41] and theology at Bushnell University [35:44] and he noticed something among his Jane [35:46] J Gen Z students. He says uh Gen Z isn't [35:50] asking why bad things happen to good [35:52] people. He's writing for Christianity [35:54] today. He says among his students, he [35:56] says, "As I've begun my career as a Gen [35:58] Z Bible professor to Gen Z students, [36:00] I've realized my undergraduates aren't [36:02] asking the questions, why do bad things [36:05] happen to good people and how can a good [36:07] God let evil happen?" Time and again, I [36:09] hear instead some variation of another [36:11] question. Where is God's judgment [36:13] against oppressors? If God is real, why [36:15] hasn't he struck down these people for [36:17] their sin? Or more bluntly, why don't [36:20] bad things happen to bad people? Um, he [36:23] talks about teaching the story of David [36:25] and Ba Sheeba. And the big concern from [36:28] his students wasn't David's sin, but [36:30] that he got off too easily. [36:32] >> That there was too much mercy. Mhm. [36:35] >> Uh the difficulty for them, he says, was [36:37] God's forgiveness and mercy. From my [36:40] observation in the classroom, Gen Z [36:42] seems to be expectant of evil and [36:44] brokenness. That isn't giving them [36:46] issues. What they want is to see evil [36:50] and brokenness punished harshly. [36:53] >> Yeah. [36:54] >> And quickly. And that they're taking [36:56] more the attitude of the imprecatory [36:58] psalms. Smash the teeth of my enemies. [37:02] Um they they they speak of a deep desire [37:05] to see justice especially for the [37:07] oppressed. Imprecatory psalms are often [37:08] written from a position of [37:10] powerlessness. The experience of Gen Z [37:12] is unique though and this is his theory. [37:14] How digital media exposes young people [37:16] to suffering, oppression and violence [37:17] against others and mass. Zoomer's [37:20] interest in imprecation and justice [37:22] comes not only from their personal [37:23] experiences but also from the daily [37:25] witness of social media of the harm done [37:27] to others around the world. And studies [37:30] show that Gen Z is becoming more [37:32] comfortable with the idea of political [37:33] violence, for example, that it may be [37:35] necessary to get the change in the world [37:38] that you want. [37:40] Um, have you Hey, you teach [37:43] >> Yeah. [37:43] >> Yeah. [37:44] >> Yeah. I al also give sermons to people [37:46] who in that age group. [37:47] >> I have some exposure to Gen Z and I had [37:51] it in my family and I have to say I have [37:53] seen some of this. [37:54] >> You had it in your family. [37:55] >> I had some in my family. There was some [37:57] Gen Z in my family. No, through my [38:00] family I have exposure [38:02] >> Gen Z children [38:03] >> to Gen Z and I have seen this of [38:08] >> a a level of um hatred against [38:12] oppression and oppressors, [38:14] you know, that kind of exceeds the [38:16] boundaries of of Christian compassion or [38:19] sometimes theology. [38:21] >> Yeah. Sometimes it feels like um [38:24] evangelicalism is just like this is [38:26] going to sound so mean. It's like 20 [38:28] years, maybe 50 years. It's playing out, [38:31] but it's playing out the script that [38:34] African-American church Christians have [38:35] struggled with for a long time. This [38:37] idea of the the relationship between [38:39] compassion and vengeance. It's not [38:41] actually what happened, but it's [38:43] basically the Malcolm versus Martin kind [38:45] of stereotype. The history is actually [38:47] more complicated than that, but like the [38:49] idea [38:49] >> that would be Malcolm X and Martin. [38:52] Sorry for that for the audience. But the [38:53] idea that I'm struggling with the [38:55] Christianity where God doesn't smite my [38:56] enemies and the people who are [38:58] continuing to suffer and God hasn't done [39:00] anything. That's just another remix of [39:03] why hasn't God done more to help black [39:05] people and we remain oppressed and he's [39:06] not striking down our oppressor. And [39:08] when I say it feels like a lot of these [39:09] conversations that I experienced as a [39:11] kid have been helpful now, it's similar [39:13] to when like evangelicalism woke up all [39:15] at almost all at once and said, "Hey, [39:18] the people we thought were good guys [39:19] were actually bad guys." And the second [39:21] level of that processing is, oh, the [39:23] people who I thought were good guys are [39:25] actually bad guys. Then God should judge [39:26] those bad guys. Oh, he hasn't done so. [39:28] They've been bad for a long time. What [39:29] do we do? And so, one of the things that [39:31] I've tried to say is, and this is comes [39:34] not from me. It comes from like that [39:36] entire tradition is that the grace that [39:37] is available to us in principle has to [39:39] be available to everyone else. That in [39:41] that, you know, in the Old Testament, [39:42] they would say the day of the Lord, the [39:44] day of the Lord. But the what the [39:46] prophet said is that once God begins to [39:48] judge, what happens when this judgment [39:50] turns to you? [39:51] >> And one of the things that happens [39:52] sometimes and not just with Gen Z, with [39:54] all of us is that we can see the role [39:57] that people play out there, but we don't [39:59] see our own brokenness. And so if God [40:01] begins to actually judge the world, the [40:02] question becomes, what happens when he [40:04] judges you? And so offering the the [40:07] possibility of change to even the [40:09] oppressor is a manifestation of God's [40:12] grace that you've already taken [40:13] advantage of. And so they can say that [40:14] once I've had advantage of that grace, [40:16] I've received that forgiveness, I want [40:18] to stop it. But the nature of grace is [40:20] it tends to flow over and over and over [40:22] again and helping them to understand the [40:24] relationship between the grace that God [40:25] gave to them and the grace that might be [40:27] available to people who are currently [40:29] oppressors and even hearing stories of [40:31] people who were once oppressors who've [40:33] now come over helps them understand [40:34] what's going on. [40:35] >> I I the article is really good. I hope [40:37] we'll link to it in the show notes. [40:38] People should read it. I thought the [40:40] missing piece and maybe if he had more [40:42] space or could have written a longer [40:43] article it would have been better. The [40:45] missing piece was I would love to see [40:46] him interact with the work of like Greg [40:48] Lucanov and Michael Jonathan height [40:52] about the coddling of the American mind [40:54] and like this younger generation who's [40:56] been [40:56] >> coddled since they were born and told [40:58] they're the best and they never fail and [41:00] everything because there's this [41:02] >> disconnect as you're putting it [41:04] >> Esau between wanting God to smite all [41:07] the evildoers out there in the world but [41:09] I'm clearly not one of them. So, there's [41:11] this really bizarre self-conception that [41:13] this generation has that they're [41:15] righteous, they're great, they're good, [41:17] they don't have to worry at all about [41:19] God's judgment, but all those bad people [41:21] do. [41:21] >> But the culture, I mean, the culture has [41:23] painted this. You know, here's how you [41:26] you're on the right side of history. You [41:28] know, you're on the right side of [41:29] history if you're an ally to this group [41:31] and that group and this group and that [41:33] group and you stand up, you know, you [41:34] stand up for Palestine and you stand up [41:36] for LGBT. [41:37] >> But MAGA people would say the same [41:38] thing. I know everybody wants to be [41:40] righteous in their own eyes [41:42] >> in in my group is always good and on [41:44] God's side and all those groups are bad [41:46] and need to be judged severely [41:47] >> and you and that you should be smoked. [41:50] >> Yeah. And I mean Jesus talks about the [41:52] sermon on the mount take the plank out [41:53] of your own eye. Like there's this [41:55] complete lack of self-reflection and [41:57] self-awareness and realizing I am also [41:59] an enemy of God. [42:00] >> Yeah. I am on speaking on the right. I [42:03] had this conversation with one of our [42:05] one of our online critics, a more famous [42:07] one that I will not mention [42:09] >> talking and they were talking about this [42:11] great revival that's happening and and [42:14] someone brought up well do we see [42:16] confession of sin because that tends to [42:17] be how revival starts and the response [42:20] was well sure I know someone who has [42:23] confessed that that they were too scared [42:26] to tell their LGBT friend that he's [42:28] going to hell. [42:30] That was his sin was not pointing out [42:33] the sin of another. [42:34] >> Yes. So my sin is not pointing out the [42:36] speck in my brother's eye. [42:37] >> Yeah. I thought that was that's [42:39] fascinating that we've put ourselves in [42:41] a position where the only way we can [42:43] fail is by not telling you how you're [42:45] failing. [42:46] >> Right. [42:46] >> I I I have this maybe this is my take [42:49] and maybe I'm wrong. I think that some [42:52] of our largecale political discourse is [42:57] a way of hiding our own personal pain [43:01] and trauma. And by that I mean yes, like [43:04] you should care about like the [43:06] oppressed. Like I'm like team care about [43:07] the oppressed. But but so if you if we [43:11] all took on the back of your shirt, [43:13] >> I I say this all the time. Some of the [43:15] deepest wounds that we've actually had [43:16] are by the people who are closest to us. [43:18] Of course, [43:18] >> it's things that your parent has said, a [43:21] friend or a neighbor. And we are trying [43:23] to fix the world solely by these large [43:27] scale social movements and the students [43:29] can see those things, but they don't [43:31] understand the the individual damage [43:33] that they can do. Like the kinds of [43:35] cruelty that you see people inflict [43:38] against one another, even even when it [43:39] comes to ideological warfare. Everybody [43:41] cares about mental health until it is [43:43] their ideological opponent and then you [43:45] can destroy them. And so the idea that I [43:47] might actually have within me brokenness [43:51] that needs to be transformed for the [43:53] good of the world because you know what [43:54] happened you know how a structure is [43:55] created it's a individual broken person [43:58] who gets a lot of power who can then [44:00] perpetuate that brokenness into society [44:02] maybe even like Elon Musk right and so I [44:04] think I think you need something like [44:06] >> there was there was a point in Christian [44:07] history where there was a break over [44:10] social justice and you know and interior [44:13] righteousness and the the [44:15] fundamentalists which are my strain [44:18] that's the side that you know I come [44:20] from um focused on the interior you know [44:23] are you a good person are you do you [44:25] smoke do you drink do you chew do you go [44:27] with girls that do etc etc etc are you [44:29] in church every week [44:31] >> um and the other side moved more away [44:33] from personal righteousness and more [44:35] towards societal right righteousness and [44:37] social justice so it seems like that's [44:39] kind of playing out again [44:41] >> but among many Christian kids [44:44] >> yeah you know, that grew up evangelical, [44:46] but they don't like that it only [44:48] matters, you know, your sexual sin is [44:51] the only thing we should really be [44:52] concerned about and not societal sin. [44:54] So, we're kind of we're flipping the the [44:57] conservative kids are becoming the old [44:59] liberals from the early 20th century. [45:01] >> There's some of that for sure. I I also [45:03] think though that [45:05] every whether it's a political movement [45:07] or a social movement or a justice [45:09] movement, what they all share in common [45:11] is they're trying to communicate [45:14] who is it okay for me to hate? [45:17] >> And not only okay for me to hate, who is [45:19] it morally responsible for me to hate? [45:21] >> Yeah. [45:22] >> And I think the moment you are [45:24] designating any other group of people as [45:26] the target of your hatred or God's [45:28] hatred, you are not following Jesus [45:30] anymore. [45:32] And we [45:32] >> Nazis, [45:34] >> even Nazis, like I I fundamentally [45:36] disagree with the Nazis out there. I [45:38] also wish for their redemption. [45:40] >> Yeah. [45:40] >> Right. That's different than just [45:42] condemnation and judgment. And so to to [45:45] put those two pieces together, there [45:46] needs to be Yeah. wisdom and discernment [45:48] to know what's going on in the world [45:49] that is contrary to God's will and to [45:52] seek restoration and correction and all [45:54] those kinds of things. At the same time, [45:56] I need to be open to what God is [45:58] revealing in me and what in the name of [46:00] trying to change the world. Am I [46:01] harboring anger, hatred, vengeance, and [46:03] evil in my own soul that needs to be [46:05] exposed and repented of? And if I'm not [46:08] doing both of those things, then [46:10] something's broken in my faith. [46:11] >> And I would say, and I don't want to be [46:12] mean cuz like we're the old sters, so I [46:14] don't want to yell. [46:15] >> We are the old we don't even have [46:16] Caitlyn here to be one generation [46:19] closer. But I think I think that one of [46:21] the other things that are difficult for [46:23] me is that people like they read a [46:25] couple of books or they see a YouTube or [46:28] they see a YouTube short or they see [46:30] someone on Instagram and they get really [46:32] passionate about an issue and then they [46:34] want it solved in like whatever this [46:37] like time horizon is and they end up [46:39] going further than the actual group of [46:41] people who they're supposedly trying to [46:42] help. And so they don't always allow for [46:45] the actual oppressed people to to [46:48] articulate the nature of their [46:49] liberation. I've had people always [46:51] talking to me all the time about what [46:52] black people ought to be doing, how [46:53] black people ought to believe. And I'm [46:55] like, I'm the actual black person, [46:56] right? I ought to get a vote in [46:58] determining the nature of my liberation. [47:00] And if I want to hold out hope for the [47:01] transformation of society, not just to [47:03] defeat my enemies, it doesn't mean that [47:05] I'm actually internalizing whiteness. It [47:07] means that maybe I believe in the [47:08] gospel. And so I do see some of these [47:10] students like yeah God can't ex sorry [47:12] there's a pain external to you that [47:14] causes you to doubt the goodness of God [47:16] and the people who are suffering that [47:17] pain believe in God maybe you need to [47:20] think about having a little bit epistmic [47:21] humility and that's one of the things [47:22] that I struggle with when I'm trying to [47:24] counsel people like I'm the oppressed [47:26] person I actually have the beef and I'm [47:28] telling you why you should stay [47:29] Christian that's a little bit of a [47:31] that's asking us to do double labor why [47:33] don't you just take a step back and I'm [47:35] not saying this is his students take a [47:37] step back and ask why do those people [47:40] still follow Jesus and what do they see [47:42] that I don't see and have I taken their [47:44] critique on board because sometimes it's [47:46] always this debate between the left and [47:48] the right around the nature of justice [47:49] and liberation and the goodness of God [47:51] and the people who are actually making [47:53] sense of this are often left out of it. [47:55] Same thing with the immigrants, right? [47:56] The immigrants aren't they're not going [47:58] to stop being Christians because there's [47:59] a guy who claims Jesus who says that [48:02] ISIS is part of God's work. We can just [48:04] go no that's stupid and and keep [48:06] following the Lord. [48:08] Okay. All right. Think I think it's time [48:11] to wrap it up. I do I do think there's a [48:13] desire for there's always a desire for a [48:16] worksbased righteousness. And if I can [48:18] just show up at the right rallies and [48:20] put the right stickers on my laptop, I [48:22] think I'm one of the good guys. I think [48:25] I'm one of the good people. [48:26] >> Oh man. [48:27] >> I I to come back to this article. [48:29] >> I'm not going to say anything about [48:30] sticker and and um what do you call [48:32] them? Yard sign Christian. [48:34] >> Oh yeah. Sticker activism. I the one [48:36] thing that does give me encouragement [48:38] from this article though is the fact [48:39] that there's a generation who's asking [48:40] the question why when is God going to [48:43] judge evil in the world scripture has a [48:45] ton to say about that [48:46] >> story that we can tell [48:48] >> that's right but there's a ton in [48:49] scripture about that and it's I think an [48:52] easier narrative to tell from scripture [48:54] than the why does bad why do bad things [48:56] happen to good people that's also in [48:58] scripture not nearly as much but that's [49:00] much more of a mystery whereas the [49:02] justice of God is so clearly displayed [49:04] throughout the Bible and and he does [49:06] have a solution for it. So, I'm [49:08] encouraged by that that our faith has a [49:10] a response to it. [49:11] >> We'll tell the good story. [49:13] >> I think we could call it good news. [49:14] Actually, the story that we could tell. [49:17] >> Oh, [49:18] >> yeah. [49:18] >> That's great marketing. [49:19] >> Thank you. I'm going to put on a sticker [49:21] on my laptop. There we go. [49:22] >> Okay. Hey everybody, thanks for coming [49:24] along. Isa Macaulay, thanks for being [49:26] here. [49:27] >> Thank you. I'll be back in another six [49:28] months or when I come. [49:29] >> How can I come on? [49:30] >> If somebody goes down, you'll get called [49:32] up. [49:33] That's how it works. Have a If Caitlyn [49:36] twists her ankle, Esau Mal Isa Maui. [49:39] >> Esau podcast. Esau Macaulay podcast. [49:43] >> Yes. Yes. It exists. [49:44] >> Esau Macau show. [49:46] >> Yes. It's called the What is it called? [49:47] >> What is it called, [49:48] >> Mike? What is it called? [49:49] >> Isa show. [49:50] >> It's called the podcast. [49:51] >> No, it's the podcast. [49:53] How long How many episodes have we done? [49:54] 82. [49:55] >> Yeah, something like that. [49:56] >> I know. This is called the Holy Post. [49:58] >> That's cuz we've done 750. You had more [50:01] time to figure it out. Okay. Hey, thanks [50:03] for coming along everybody. Stay around [50:04] for the guest and we'll see you next [50:05] week. Our guest today is known as [50:08] America's government teacher. Sharon [50:10] McMahon rose to national prominence [50:12] during the 2020 election for combating [50:14] misinformation on social media with [50:16] fact-based civic education. She's a [50:19] former high school government teacher, [50:21] but most people know her through her [50:22] social media platform Sharon sayso. Her [50:25] podcast is called Here's Where It Gets [50:27] Interesting, and her newsletter is The [50:30] Preamble, where she explains history, [50:32] government, and current events in a [50:34] clear, nonpartisan way. McMahon is also [50:36] the author of the number one New York [50:38] Times bestselling book, The Small and [50:40] the Mighty. Caitlyn recently talked to [50:43] Sharon McMahon because she was slated to [50:44] be the commencement speaker this month [50:46] at Utah Valley University. That's the [50:49] same school where Charlie Kirk was [50:50] assassinated last fall. But McMahon's [50:53] speech was cancelled because of what the [50:55] university called increased safety [50:57] concerns. But there's more to the story [50:59] than just that. And Sharon opens up with [51:02] Caitlyn about what was really going on [51:03] behind the scenes. And she shares what [51:06] issues her commencement address would [51:07] have tackled and why they're more [51:09] relevant now than ever before. And for [51:12] our Holy Post Plus subscribers, Caitlyn [51:13] also did a bonus interview with Sharon [51:15] McMahon about how we should think about [51:17] American history and why both the far [51:20] right that idolizes American history and [51:22] the far-left that demonizes it are not [51:25] helping us move forward as a country. [51:27] Again, that interview is exclusively for [51:29] Holy Post Plus subscribers. So, go to [51:31] holypost.com to learn how you can sign [51:33] up as well. Here's Caitlyn's [51:35] conversation with Sharon McMahon. [51:38] Sharon McMahon, thank you so much for [51:40] joining me again. [51:41] >> I'm so happy to be here. It's good to [51:43] see you. [51:43] >> Yes, you too. Um, so let's just jump [51:46] right into it. For people who might not [51:48] be as maybe annoyingly online as maybe [51:51] you and I both are, um, just to give [51:53] them a little background, you were [51:54] scheduled to be the Utah Valley [51:56] University commencement speaker. There [51:58] was backlash online. There was kind of a [52:00] a coordinated campaign to keep that from [52:03] happening. Um, in part because of some [52:05] comments that that resurfaced online [52:06] that you had made about about Charlie [52:08] Kirk, who was shot and killed while [52:09] speaking at the same university. Um, and [52:11] because of all of that, you have not [52:12] ended up being the commencement speaker. [52:14] Um, before we get into some of the [52:16] things you were going to say in your [52:17] speech and some of that experience for [52:19] you, anything you would add to that [52:21] description of what happened for people [52:22] listening, they know you as, you know, [52:23] America's government teacher, not, you [52:25] know, bringer of controversy to a [52:26] college campus. So, give us some some [52:28] more detail about that. [52:30] >> Yeah. Well, I've spoken at UVU twice [52:32] before, so uh this is not a university [52:34] that just sort of like blindly reached [52:37] out and, you know, based on some kind of [52:39] recommendation from somebody they didn't [52:40] know. Like they they uh knew who they [52:43] were inviting. Uh they're very familiar [52:45] with my work. We were actually in touch [52:47] in the days following Charlie Kirk's [52:50] horrific assassination. Um, and you [52:54] know, I just I I know that they were uh [52:57] asking me to come in a in a spirit of [53:01] good faith and in thinking about uh ways [53:05] that we might sort of um bring a balm to [53:10] a very challenging school year for this [53:13] university because whether you loved [53:15] Charlie Kirk or you didn't enjoy him, [53:18] what a horrible thing to have happen on [53:20] your college campus. What a horrible [53:22] thing for the students to have [53:23] witnessed. It impacted every single [53:25] student there. [53:26] >> And uh so I I know that that was one of [53:28] the intentions that they uh with which [53:31] they were inviting me. [53:33] >> Um and in terms of you know comments [53:35] sort of resurfacing online, [53:38] >> I don't necessarily know that that's the [53:40] really the best way or the right way to [53:42] to look at it. Uh the there are many uh [53:46] things that happened in the aftermath of [53:48] his assassination, which by the way, I [53:50] was live on the internet when it when [53:52] that happened. Like I was literally live [53:55] on the internet when my phone was [53:56] starting to blow up with what was [53:58] happening. [53:58] >> Yeah. We were all here in the office [54:00] like live following like what is even [54:01] going to happen? Yeah. It was horrible. [54:03] >> Yeah. I mean, I had like thousands of [54:04] people like eyeballs on me at the moment [54:06] that it was announced that he had been [54:08] shot and then there was that [54:09] >> time where we didn't know what would the [54:11] outcome of that would be. I was so um [54:16] just I was choked up and uh distraught [54:20] for the not just his family but for the [54:23] school community. [54:24] >> Yeah. [54:24] >> And for America as a whole, [54:28] >> right? Like this is not I said in this [54:31] video that I that I was like literally [54:33] on the internet while this was [54:34] happening. This is not the America I [54:36] want to live in [54:37] >> in which we um solve disagreements with [54:41] people. uh with violence. That's not the [54:44] America I want to live in. [54:46] >> Uh and I still believe that that's even [54:48] more true today than it was uh all those [54:50] months ago. I also on that day um posted [54:54] um a post that made some people mad. [54:58] >> Uh and the post said, I'm paraphrasing, [55:00] but something to the effect of um loving [55:04] your neighbor means loving your enemies. [55:09] And that's a that's a you know like your [55:12] enemy is your neighborhood. [55:14] >> And uh [55:16] >> I've heard someone say that before. [55:18] >> Your enemy is your neighbor. And there [55:21] were a lot of people who were like, I [55:23] don't want to hear that. He's he was a [55:26] terrible racist bigot. Fill in the [55:28] blank. Fill in the blank. um you can't [55:31] ask me to care about somebody who said [55:34] such horrible things because again based [55:36] on your perception of Charlie Kirk. [55:39] Yeah. [55:39] >> Um you the people tended to fall into [55:42] two camps and I I've learned that there [55:43] are actually three camps but the two [55:46] main camps are you were a big fan. You [55:48] loved everything he did. you felt like [55:51] he was a purveyor of both free speech [55:54] and the gospel and that he was sort of [55:56] unashamed in his faith and that he was [55:59] uh going to college campuses and [56:01] engaging in good faith debates with [56:02] college students. That's you know sort [56:04] of one camp camp of people um and their [56:07] view of him. And then there's another [56:09] camp who feels um like Charlie Kirk was [56:13] disingenuous, that as I mentioned that [56:15] he was uh racist, that he was a bigot, [56:18] that he was anti- you know uh he was [56:20] Islamophobic, he was anti-LGBTQ, and [56:23] that he said purposely inflammatory [56:25] things in an effort to get clips on the [56:27] internet in which it appeared as though [56:29] he was getting in some [56:31] >> burns against college students. So these [56:35] two camps of people have apparently [56:38] Kalin have never spoken to each other. [56:41] These two camps of people don't know [56:43] each other at all. And um the people in [56:47] the first camp who feel like he that [56:50] essentially that Charlie Kirk was a [56:52] messenger from God or some people have [56:54] even said he is this generation's Martin [56:55] Luther King. H [56:58] this camp over here could not conceive [57:01] of why anyone other than a terrible [57:04] person would take issue with anything [57:07] that he had ever said. [57:08] >> So anyway, that's the not to belabor the [57:11] point, but that was sort of like the [57:12] second thing that I said about this this [57:14] issue. [57:15] >> A lot of people were mad about that. I [57:17] stand by it. I still believe that's [57:19] true. You can be mad at me all you want. [57:20] I still I stand by that. Um, and then [57:23] the third thing that I put up was a [57:25] couple of days after he died [57:28] when I really discovered that there were [57:30] a lot of people who had never heard of [57:32] him. [57:33] >> Yeah. Yeah. [57:34] >> That was actually very surprising to me. [57:36] And I actually was on a podcast recently [57:38] where the podcast host was like, [57:39] "Actually, that was me. [57:41] >> I didn't know who he was. I had no idea [57:44] who he was. I couldn't imagine why [57:46] anybody would want to assassinate him, [57:49] >> you know, like that. it just completely [57:51] over my head. [57:52] >> So, the post that I uh put up that [57:55] eventually became controversial many [57:56] months later uh was contextualizing for [57:59] people who' never heard of him, [58:00] contextualizing who he was and the [58:02] incredible cultural impact he had [58:04] specifically in certain circles. He had [58:07] 20 million podcast listeners a month. [58:10] >> Wow. [58:10] >> As a podcaster, [58:12] >> you know how crazy. [58:14] >> Okay, that is a that is an huge [58:18] audience. insane audience. Um, so [58:21] contextualizing who he was and then also [58:23] contextualizing for people who could not [58:26] conceive of like what was good about [58:28] this person or why would anybody dislike [58:31] him, [58:32] >> right? [58:32] >> Um, contextualizing some of the more [58:35] controversial things that he had said [58:36] and why anyone would find them [58:39] controversial. [58:40] >> So, um, those [58:42] >> doing the work that you already do, [58:43] right? Educating people on the internet [58:44] who are trying to figure out what's [58:45] going on in our politics. Yeah, [58:46] >> that's right. Right. none of this is out [58:48] of the ordinary for me uh to to try to [58:52] help people understand the moment in [58:53] which we're living. [58:55] >> Um and that that post was very popular. [58:59] Uh it had like over 200,000 likes on it. [59:03] >> Um and a lot of people were mad too. [59:05] There were there were people who were [59:06] angry as well. [59:08] >> But overall it was it was by far like [59:10] the most viral post I've ever written by [59:12] far. And that lived in my feed until um [59:16] a couple of months ago um when [59:20] the the [59:22] number of uh followers that I was [59:25] continuing to gain from that post just [59:28] became [59:30] not worth the cost of what was happening [59:34] um as a result of that post, which [59:35] again, you're on the internet, you know [59:37] how unusual it is for a post to continue [59:40] to live on months and months and months [59:42] later. It's a very unusual scenario. And [59:45] when people started like figuring out [59:47] where my children went to school and [59:49] what my home address was and mailing me [59:51] copies of the outside of my children's [59:54] school and when they started uh planning [59:57] a coordinated effort to try to get my [59:59] child fired from their job, [60:02] >> like calling my child's boss um and and [60:05] then having a series of people call [60:08] every day for a period of time in an [60:11] effort to try to get them fired. it just [60:15] became not worth [60:17] >> having in my feed any longer. Even [60:20] though I was continuing to gain [60:21] thousands of followers from that post, [60:23] it just was not worth the trade-off to [60:24] my children, [60:26] >> right? To the my children's safety. [60:28] >> Yeah. [60:28] >> So, I archived that post a couple of [60:30] months ago. Um, not because I don't it's [60:34] there's nothing in it that I would take [60:36] back. Um, there's nothing in it that I [60:38] would say, "Oh, I should have said that [60:40] differently or whatever." like I I [60:42] believe wholeheartedly in everything [60:43] that I wrote. I know the intention with [60:45] which I wrote it. I know what my where [60:47] my heart is and I carefully considered [60:49] my words. [60:50] >> Um but solely the reason I took it down [60:52] was solely because of [60:54] >> Yeah. [60:55] >> the effects the the collateral damage [60:58] for my children that they don't they [61:00] don't deserve. [61:01] >> Mhm. [61:02] >> Yeah. Yeah. So that's the sort of [61:04] backdrop against all of this. Yes. Yeah. [61:07] and then give us some, you know, little [61:09] bit of the context of how that ended up [61:11] becoming the reason you were no longer [61:13] the commencement speaker at this [61:14] university because I think most people [61:16] hearing that would just go, she's making [61:18] a wise choice for her children. Also, [61:20] she's not someone who said inflammatory [61:23] things about Charlie Kirk or said [61:25] anything positive about what happened. [61:27] So, give us some sense of like what [61:28] could possibly have led from that to [61:30] what ended up happening when it came to [61:32] the commencement speech. [61:33] >> Yeah, I've never mentioned Charlie Kirk [61:35] one time prior to that. So, it wasn't [61:37] like I'm out here being a Charlie Kirk [61:39] hater on a daily basis. The only time I [61:41] ever talked about him was in the context [61:43] of this horrific event. And the only [61:45] time I've talked about him since is in [61:47] giving occasional news updates about the [61:49] investigation into his murder. [61:50] >> Mhm. [61:51] >> I've I've there like you you cannot [61:54] create some kind of pattern of like she [61:55] hates Charlie Kirk. I did not and do not [61:58] hate Charlie Kirk. M um so what ended up [62:02] happening was um a coordinated effort on [62:05] the part of Turning Point and Utah [62:09] elected officials both [62:11] >> both federal like in Congress and state [62:14] legislature officials um to [62:18] try to make it so that I would not be [62:20] allowed to be the speaker at this [62:23] school. And then as a result of their [62:26] coordinated [62:28] attack, and I'm talking, we're not just [62:30] talking about posting on Twitter. I [62:33] don't I don't think she's a great [62:34] choice. We're talking about like going [62:37] on Fox News, dedicating entire episodes [62:40] or dedicating aspects of large platform [62:44] um podcasts with millions of listeners [62:46] to talking about me. um that scenario [62:52] that and and I'm talking about elected [62:53] officials, members of the United States [62:55] Congress posting about me personally [62:57] dozens and dozens of times. [62:59] >> Um and all of this happening at um all [63:03] at the same time. Like there's no no way [63:06] that this was um organic. [63:09] >> No coincidence here. [63:10] >> Yeah. There because they did not say one [63:12] word about me [63:13] >> after this happened. They said not not [63:15] one word after the post was put up and [63:17] after it lived in my feed for months and [63:19] months. [63:20] >> Yeah. [63:20] >> Um it was not organic. And then um [63:23] members of the Utah legislature began to [63:25] threaten the school's funding [63:28] >> uh and begin to say openly in public um [63:31] that they needed to pull the school's [63:33] funding. When when the public responded, [63:36] they were like, "Yeah, text. I I'll text [63:38] you. Higher ed appropriations. I'll text [63:40] you." M [63:41] >> um so this was not a um a studentled [63:48] effort which you see in other parts of [63:50] the country. [63:51] >> Yeah. [63:52] >> Uh there's currently a studentled effort [63:54] backlash against the speaker at NYU [63:57] Jonathan Height. There was recently a [64:00] backlash against the lieutenant governor [64:01] of South Carolina at an H.B.CU where [64:04] students felt like this is not a good [64:06] speaker for us. This was not studentled. [64:09] In fact, um, a local news channel in [64:11] Salt Lake City went to the campus and [64:13] did like man on the street interviews [64:16] trying to find the student outrage and [64:18] couldn't. [64:20] >> Either the students were like, [64:22] >> "Yeah, [64:23] >> I don't know who that is." [64:25] >> Or, "I'm not graduating. I'm not paying [64:27] attention to the speaker." Or they were [64:30] like, "She seems she seems great. [64:32] >> Fine. Yeah, great. Good." Yeah, [64:34] >> there was not a there was this was not a [64:36] like [64:37] >> the students made this choice. [64:40] >> Um, so [64:42] >> all of this put together created an [64:45] escalating series of threats and [64:48] security issues [64:50] >> against me, against the university [64:53] itself, against the board of trustees, [64:57] against the university administration, [64:58] against the university president. Um, [65:02] and then couple in add in one more [65:04] factor, which is a Utah state law that [65:06] doesn't allow them to have um like a [65:09] weaponsfree event. They are they're [65:12] required to allow [65:14] >> weapons in the building. [65:17] So there it it became a very difficult [65:19] event to cons to to secure. [65:22] >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, [65:24] there were we had multiple security [65:27] conversations with with like a dozen [65:30] people, with local law enforcement, with [65:34] security on campus, with campus police, [65:37] with administration, with my my private [65:39] security that I hired. [65:41] >> Um, and in those conversations, we were [65:44] having to say things like, [65:47] >> "Does Sharon have to wear a bulletproof [65:49] vest under her commencement robe?" Oh my [65:52] goodness. And then like is are the [65:55] optics of wearing a bulletproof vest [65:58] really bad? Oh. And will the [66:01] commencement robe which are very loose [66:03] and flowy, [66:05] will the commencement robe like cover it [66:07] enough so that the students won't know? [66:10] >> Like these are the kinds of [66:11] conversations that were being had. So um [66:15] all of that just be created this perfect [66:17] storm. [66:17] >> Yeah. of [66:19] >> it just became I could not bear the [66:21] thought of anything else happening to [66:24] this school. [66:25] >> Sure. Yeah. [66:26] >> And the school certainly is extremely [66:30] reticent to take a risk. [66:32] >> 100% understandable [66:34] >> why they would feel that way. And then [66:36] also the whole funding piece is yet [66:38] another thing that they're trying to [66:40] consider. [66:42] So, um, it's the students who are being [66:45] unfairly penalized in that scenario. The [66:48] students, this is the largest university [66:50] in Utah. It has over 40,000 students. [66:53] Wow. [66:53] >> Um, a large percentage of whom I I want, [66:55] I believe it's somewhere in the 40% [66:57] range. A large percentage of whom are [66:59] firstg generation college students. [67:01] >> These are people who are working hard. [67:04] They they are not [67:06] >> they're not trying to they just want to [67:08] have a nice little graduation like I did [67:10] it. Guess all they're trying to do is [67:12] just graduate. They're not trying to get [67:14] involved in a security issue and [67:16] protesters. [67:18] >> I mean, Turning Point had already begun [67:20] planning to bus in protesters. [67:23] >> Oh my goodness. [67:24] >> And the and like they were open. They [67:26] were transparent about this to the [67:28] school security and the school security [67:30] was was in the process of figuring out [67:33] where's the protest area [67:35] >> and that's their right to do that. I [67:37] 100% your right 100% [67:41] >> support your right to protest. [67:43] >> Yeah. [67:43] >> Um and if students were going to like [67:47] stand up and walk out of my commencement [67:49] address, um I support their right to do [67:52] that. Even if even if I disagree with [67:55] what they're saying, I believe in [67:57] protecting their right to say it. [67:59] >> Yeah. [67:59] >> Um free speech on campus is an important [68:02] issue to me. Um but but again all of [68:05] these things just created such a [68:08] maelstrm that it became um not worth the [68:12] security risks to to move forward. And [68:16] so that's that's ultimately how it how [68:18] it kind of came to a head. [68:20] >> Yeah, it's wild. I didn't think about [68:22] this until you were describing it, but [68:25] while I think almost no one listening, [68:26] maybe a handful of people, but very few [68:28] people listening are like, "Oh yeah, [68:29] I've been in Sharon's position where [68:31] there's this entire, you know, [68:32] politicians are making statements on Fox [68:34] News." And but I actually think a lot of [68:36] people listening have been the pastor of [68:38] a church or have been involved in a [68:40] community organization and have watched [68:42] people with money or people with outside [68:44] influence work in very similar dynamics [68:46] to what you have described. I have where [68:48] it's like the people in the church [68:51] aren't wanting this to happen but a [68:52] handful of influential stakeholders or [68:55] some people with a lot of money or some [68:56] people who want to use a specific person [68:59] or situation as a platform for their [69:01] other you know political position that [69:02] they want to forward for people who have [69:06] any kind of sense of what this is like [69:07] or for people who are just watching this [69:09] from the outside and are feeling what [69:10] I'm feeling which is just oh my goodness [69:12] Jiren I am so sorry and I am I just am [69:15] horrified that this is the state that we [69:16] are in politically [69:17] Mhm. [69:18] >> I wonder what you have learned. I wonder [69:21] what I mean, you are someone who talks [69:23] about these topics all the time when it [69:24] comes to polarization, the difficulty we [69:26] have talking across difference, the way [69:28] that people who aren't even trying to be [69:30] at the center of a controversy get swept [69:32] up into it. [69:33] >> What has this I mean, it's been horrific [69:35] for you, I'm sure, but what what have [69:37] you learned? M you know, one of the [69:40] things I've learned is um that despite [69:44] the American experiment uh coming up on [69:47] its 250th anniversary this year, [69:50] >> uh that we are still grappling with many [69:52] of the same issues and questions that we [69:56] have always grappled with. And this is [70:00] in many communities the the idea of a [70:03] threat of violence for using your rights [70:06] uh especially especially if you're a [70:08] black American, if you're an American [70:10] from a minority group, a racial minority [70:14] group, an ethnic minority group, [70:16] religious minority group, if you're an [70:18] LGBTQ community, if you are a member of [70:21] one of those groups, the idea that of [70:23] the threats of violence would be used [70:25] against you for exercising your rights [70:28] that is not an uncommon experience in [70:32] those communities even to this day. [70:35] >> And um as as much as I would like to be [70:38] like this is horrifying and has never [70:40] happened in American history before [70:43] >> um it certainly has happened far less [70:46] frequently to um to well-educated white [70:50] women [70:52] >> you like me. It certainly has happened [70:54] far less frequently to people like me [70:56] than it has to other people in America. [70:58] And so I I hesitate to um you know I [71:02] don't view myself as like I'm this [71:05] horrible victim. Nobody's ever been a [71:06] victim the way I am. I don't I don't [71:08] view it that way at all. [71:09] >> Um what I have is a greater sense of [71:12] empathy for what many Americans have [71:16] lived through for centuries. [71:18] >> Yeah. that seeking to uh seeking with [71:22] only pure intention to exercise their uh [71:25] free speech rights or their right to [71:27] vote or their you know their right to [71:29] peaceibly assemble seeking only to [71:32] exercise their own rights they have been [71:34] turned back by threats of violence over [71:36] and over. This is a pattern throughout [71:38] American history. [71:39] >> And um as much as I would like to say [71:43] well we're over it, [71:45] >> uh it's it's obvious that we're not. And [71:48] uh it it's given me just the tiniest [71:52] uh it's enlarged the window just just a [71:55] little into the um the exhaustion and [71:58] the pain of other communities who have [72:00] who have dealt with far more. [72:02] >> Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about the [72:05] speech that you didn't give that was [72:06] published after the commencement that [72:08] you did not give a speech at. Um I have [72:10] a few questions because I loved the [72:12] speech. I wish I could have heard it be [72:13] given by you. But one of the places that [72:15] I just loved that I think people who [72:18] listen to the Holy Post would be [72:19] especially interested in is that you you [72:20] draw this distinction between easy [72:22] optimism and durable hope. And often [72:25] when we're talking about this on the [72:26] podcast, we're talking about Christian [72:27] hope. But I think there's a similar [72:29] dynamic here where people go, is this [72:31] like pie in the sky optimism? Is it just [72:33] like slap a happy face on? And and and [72:35] sometimes we'll even get criticized by [72:37] people who say, "Are you not paying [72:38] enough attention to like every horrible [72:40] thing that's happening in the world?" [72:41] And I loved how you described this. So, [72:43] so give us a little bit of the sense of [72:44] what is the difference between easy [72:45] optimism and durable hope. [72:48] >> And easy optimism is the idea that uh [72:52] things are going to work out, that you [72:54] know, you're going to win the game or [72:56] that you're going to get the race or [72:58] that uh you know, the road ahead is wide [73:01] and uh [73:03] >> flat and that what what's what's ahead [73:06] for you is just is blue skies and [73:08] opportunity. [73:09] And um that easy optimism crumbles the [73:14] second you know a diagnosis comes. The [73:17] second a loved one passes away. The [73:20] second um something terrible happens in [73:23] your community. Uh the second somebody [73:26] you love is subjected to a horrific [73:29] event. That easy optimism crumbles and [73:31] it and it shakes the foundation of what [73:34] you believed to be true. And so it's as [73:38] as easy as it is for us to want to reach [73:41] for that sense of like things are [73:43] working out. Um that is ultimately a [73:46] shaky foundation on which to build a [73:48] worldview. And uh I I encouraged um I [73:53] was hoping to encourage students to um [73:55] reach for something that is um [74:00] something more durable, something that [74:01] is longerlasting, that will last even [74:05] through the difficult times, that is not [74:07] dependent upon an easy path forward in [74:12] order to um feel [74:16] that what you do matters. And you know, [74:18] a durable hope, I liken it in the in the [74:21] speech to a hand in the dark. When when [74:23] like all it feels like is a hand in the [74:25] dark. That's all I have. I don't have [74:27] the bluebirds and the blue skies and [74:30] the, you know, the wide flat road to go [74:32] 80 miles an hour on. All I have is a [74:35] hand in the dark. [74:36] >> Um that will that hand in the dark will [74:39] get you through [74:41] >> uh when uneasy optimism crumbles. [74:43] >> Yeah. So, I I think it's easy in a [74:47] commencement speech to want to just um [74:51] prop everybody up with 15 minutes of [74:53] feelood and to tell everybody that [74:56] they're about to change the world and um [74:59] that the future belongs to them. And and [75:01] those things are not they're not wrong. [75:03] It's not wrong to tell people that. Um, [75:06] but I wanted my hope was that I would I [75:10] would give people something to sort of [75:11] tuck into their pocket that would last [75:13] longer than uh than just the 15 minutes. [75:17] I mean, do you remember who do you [75:19] remember who your college commencement [75:21] speaker was, Caitlyn? I have the [75:23] unfortunate uh reality of being like [75:25] these graduates and that I went to [75:26] Liberty University, so it was political [75:28] chaos where I went, but it was not a [75:30] good commencement speech. And I think [75:31] most people do not remember their [75:32] commencement speeches, so I'm with you. [75:34] They might remember them because they're [75:36] bad. [75:37] >> Yes. That's a good way to stick in the [75:39] memories to be horrific. [75:40] >> Yes. The last college commencement I [75:42] attended was my sister's college [75:44] commencement and the speaker was bad and [75:47] tried to spend the whole time uh making [75:49] some kind of life lesson about his niece [75:52] that was trying to buy a broom at the [75:53] hardware store. And I remember like [75:55] looking at my mom like sitting next to [75:58] me being like, "How much longer is this [76:00] going to be? This is not [76:01] >> like this is a tortured metaphor. It's a [76:03] tortured metaphor. [76:05] >> I was talking Oh, go ahead. [76:06] >> Go ahead. I was talking to another [76:08] friend about this like, "Do you remember [76:09] your college commencement?" And they [76:11] speaker and they're like, "Well, I do [76:13] because my college commencement speaker [76:15] was llj." [76:17] And I and I was like, "Okay, all right." [76:20] You know, that's a few experience. [76:23] >> Yeah. I would understand why you'd [76:24] remember that. [76:25] >> Most of us are don't have that [76:27] opportunity, but I'm glad you did. [76:29] That's very true. [76:30] >> Yes. And I love that you just mentioned [76:31] another one of the kind of platitudes [76:32] that get thrown around in commencement [76:34] speeches is change the world. Like go [76:36] out and do this huge thing. And I love [76:38] that you say in your speech, you aren't [76:41] asking graduates to save the world. And [76:42] you give some pretty like lower, [76:45] smaller, softer examples even though [76:48] they're still very beautiful of things [76:49] that they can do. You know, offer [76:51] forgiveness to someone, say the hard [76:53] thing when it's necessary. give us some [76:55] sense of why that was important because [76:56] I think a lot of us probably did if we [76:58] even do remember our commencement [76:59] speeches or even many of us sermons on a [77:01] Sunday morning hear something that feels [77:04] like the scale is huge and impossible [77:07] and we don't often hear the smaller [77:09] thing. So why was that important? [77:12] >> This is something that I hear from [77:13] people all the time that when they're [77:15] reading history or they're watching the [77:17] news, it's very easy to feel like, [77:19] "Hello, I'm not Elon Musk. I'm not I [77:22] don't I didn't I don't have a trillion [77:25] million billion dollars. I didn't invent [77:27] some satellite technology. I'm not [77:29] George Washington, you know, like hello, [77:32] I stay at home with little children, [77:34] right? [77:34] >> I you know, I teach elementary school. I [77:37] work in in a doctor's office. Um, it's [77:40] very easy for us to count ourselves out [77:43] of the narrative because we view the [77:46] scale of our own lives to be so small as [77:49] to not be meaningful. [77:52] >> And over and over, history uh proves [77:55] that that's wrong. That that that [77:57] actually is wrong. That what you do on a [77:59] daily basis actually matters a lot. And [78:03] uh it's I I am constantly trying to [78:06] encourage people to stop thinking about [78:09] it's my job to change the world. It's my [78:12] job to save the world. It's my job. [78:13] Look, no, it's not. It's actually [78:15] absolutely not your job. [78:16] >> That is not your job. And uh it actually [78:20] feels far more empowering to me. [78:23] uh to be told that what I do and who I [78:27] am matters where I am at the life stage [78:30] that I'm in with the resources available [78:32] to me than to be like become Elon Musk [78:35] right like that's not first of all no [78:37] secondly secondly um I'm not I'm I don't [78:42] I'm not interested in that and so [78:44] consequently does my small life [78:47] >> even make a difference um I want people [78:50] to I wanted graduates It's to know that [78:54] um in fact even though these are the [78:57] times that try men's souls [79:00] >> um that [79:02] what they leave to the what they leave [79:06] to the future is is far bigger than they [79:10] can ever realize. Yeah, I love that. And [79:12] I think all of the graduation speeches [79:14] that say go out and change the world can [79:16] also tempt people to your point about [79:18] Elon Musk to go okay I'm going to get [79:19] all the power and the money and the [79:21] resources to do the big scale thing and [79:24] by the time you get all of them what [79:26] you've had to sacrifice to get to them [79:27] has often made you the kind of person [79:29] that can't offer forgiveness or do the [79:31] small next thing. [79:32] >> Um one last question Sharon and then [79:34] maybe we'll do a bonus segment to talk a [79:36] little bit more about American history. [79:37] But another line from the speech that I [79:39] just loved was, "Do not let anyone make [79:42] you feel foolish for loving a world that [79:44] is still worth saving." I'd love to hear [79:47] you talk a little bit about that line in [79:49] particular. You know, we've talked about [79:51] durable hope versus easy optimism. I do [79:54] think there are plenty of people [79:55] listening who are with us on that. And [79:56] then there's also a lot of people [79:57] listening and a lot of people at [79:59] universities around this country that [80:01] think despair is not only the most [80:03] logical option but maybe the most [80:05] fashionable, the most sophisticated, the [80:08] most intelligent. Um, yeah. Talk to us [80:11] about why we might be tempted to feel [80:14] foolish and why we shouldn't have to [80:16] feel foolish. M I think you're [80:18] absolutely right that it seems like the [80:21] your brain just easily reaches for I [80:24] mean hello we're we're going to hell in [80:27] a hand basket inside of a dumpster fire [80:30] inside of a train wreck like look [80:33] around. [80:34] >> Uh it seems easy to even mock people who [80:38] are like who are trying to hold on to [80:41] hope because everything truly is seems [80:44] horrific. Yeah. So it uh it it almost [80:47] this this uh penchant for cynicism [80:51] feels uh internally to some people like [80:54] the more intelligent option. [80:57] >> It seems like if I feel cynical, I have [81:01] correctly assessed the state of the [81:03] world. I can see through all these this [81:08] this all is a set. This is just like a [81:10] pretend blue skies. This is all just a [81:14] an act. And I I know the truth. It helps [81:17] people. It guards against um injury by [81:23] setting up a very cynical wall for [81:25] ourselves. Uh that is that becomes [81:27] impenetrable and uh allows us to feel as [81:31] though nothing matters and so we don't [81:33] need to try. [81:35] >> And ultimately [81:38] that is not the fertile soil from which [81:40] good things have ever grown. Anyone that [81:43] you admire from history, anyone, whether [81:47] it's Abraham Lincoln, whether it's [81:49] Harriet Tubman, whether it's a figure [81:52] from the Bible, any anyone you admire [81:55] from history has never made a a name for [81:59] themselves based on cynicism. M and it [82:04] is not because they felt incredible [82:09] feelings of optimism and hope and and [82:11] like everything's going to turn out for [82:12] me. You think Abraham Lincoln was like [82:14] everything's turning out for me look [82:17] >> no people were actively trying to kill [82:20] him. He dodged being assassinated [82:22] multiple times. [82:24] >> His child died while he's pre president. [82:27] his wife is severely mentally ill and [82:29] like having like talking to ghosts [82:32] upstairs at the White House. Nothing was [82:35] like half the country hated him so much [82:37] they were like, "You know what? I'd [82:38] rather get shot in the face than go [82:39] along with your ideas." [82:41] >> That's that's quite literally what was [82:44] happening. [82:45] >> He there was no sense of an easy [82:47] optimism. And I could talk about Abraham [82:49] Lincoln's depression for another [82:51] episode, but he never had an easy [82:53] optimism. But neither did he allow [82:57] himself to sink into [83:00] a cynical despair in which uh they [83:04] believe that nothing can change. [83:07] >> We do have the ability to impact the [83:09] future. We do have we don't know what [83:12] the future holds. And sinking into a [83:16] sense of cynicism and despair removes [83:19] our ability to impact the future. [83:22] >> Yeah. If we want to just leave the [83:24] future to other people and be like, [83:25] "Well, it's up to you guys. I don't have [83:26] anything to say about it." Then we can [83:28] go ahead and continue to just be uh [83:30] cynical and exist in, you know, as Ann [83:33] of Green Gables would say, the depths of [83:35] despair. We can go ahead and just like [83:37] stay in that place forever and then have [83:39] no ability to impact the future. [83:42] >> So, as you know, I am not asking for [83:45] anyone [83:47] to ignore injustice. I am not asking for [83:50] anyone to pretend as though everything [83:54] is normal and fine. I am not asking [83:57] anyone to uh to bury their head in the [84:01] sand and to and to say, you know what, [84:03] it's all going to work out. No, that's [84:05] easy optimism. That is easy optimism. I [84:08] don't know if it's going to work out. [84:10] >> Yeah. And that is not going to stop me [84:15] from doing what I can to try to uh [84:20] impact the future for the better. What [84:22] do I want the future to [84:25] >> have learned from me? [84:27] >> What do I what lessons do I want to [84:29] leave the future? [84:31] >> And those are that's something that's [84:33] accessible to all of us. No matter our [84:36] station in life, no matter how many kids [84:37] we're staying at home with or if we're [84:40] still in high school [84:41] >> or if we're getting ready to retire, [84:43] those are things that's a that's [84:44] something everyone has access to. [84:46] Doesn't require you to have a trillion [84:47] dollars or hold high- elected office. [84:50] >> Yeah, that's a great word to end on. Um [84:54] Sharon, thank you so much. We're going [84:55] to stick around for any Holy Post Plus [84:57] listeners to ask you one more question [84:58] about American history and how we can [85:00] critique and learn from American [85:01] history. You're the perfect person to [85:02] ask that question, too. But for everyone [85:03] else, thank you so much, Sharon. Thank [85:05] you. Thanks for having me. [85:06] >> Hi, kids. I'm Bob the Tomato. Like and [85:09] subscribe. [85:11] Don't sue me, Universal.  📄 **Full text:** ![[Full Document Contents/Articles/Easy Optimism vs Durable Hope With Sharon McMahon.md|Easy Optimism vs Durable Hope With Sharon McMahon by YouTube]] ## Highlights - saying. Like they said in sorry in and for those of you who don't know, you read this in Nehemiah 9. Nehemiah goes, "We made a mess of things. We worship idols. We did all of this other stuff and things went poorly for us and we're suffering. And now we want to say sorry about that, God. Now let us renew our commitment by turning from our ways and and running towards the Lord." Now, obviously, we're not in the same kind of covenant like that we are with like the blessings and curses promises in the Old Testament. But if you're going to say something like we're going to have a national event and there is no reckoning ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01ks5dtw1j2hrxyb96s7s5stvy)) - Note: Christian nationalism appropriates biblical language while avoiding biblical substance - Tags: atom/literature/h1 - of melanin. >> There we go. >> Um, Jenzers. Jenzers. Jared Dobson teaches biblical studies and theology at Bushnell University and he noticed something among his Jane J Gen Z students. He says uh Gen Z isn't asking why bad things happen to good people. He's writing for Christianity today. He says among his students, he says, "As I've begun my career as a Gen Z Bible professor to Gen Z students, ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01ks5dvdwf7y1frqccrf60cvyp)) - Note: Gen Z Christians prioritize divine judgment over theodicy questions - Tags: atom/literature/h3