EmDash New Plugin Opportunity or Threat - CourtneyR.dev's 2nd Brain

EmDash: New Plugin Opportunity or Threat? ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/etL7Ket9om8/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [EmDash: New Plugin Opportunity or Threat?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etL7Ket9om8) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: #content-management #static-site-generators #javascript #cloud-computing #plugin-architecture > author: WP Product Talk > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etL7Ket9om8 > date created: 2024-12-28 15:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: EmDash: New Plugin Opportunity or Threat? >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Investigate EmDash plugin development opportunities — 02:30 #plugin-development - [H2] Research distributed plugin marketplace architecture — 23:45 #marketplace - [H3] Evaluate EmDash vs WordPress for new projects — 31:20 #technical-evaluation ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [[#📝 Summary]] - [[#📖 Main Content]] - [[#🗒️ Notes]] - [[#📚 References]] - [[#🗣️ Paraphrase]] - [[#📰 Newsletter]] - [[#✅ Action Items]] - [[#🧪 Hypotheses]] - [[#📊 Methodology]] - [[#❓ Questions]] - [[#🔮 Future Research]] - [[#💡 Implications]] - [[#🧠 Learning Styles Assessment]] - [[#📊 Accessibility Assessment]] - [[#🌍 DEIB Assessment]] - [[#✅ Logical Validity]] - [[#🛡️ DARVO Analysis]] - [[#🎯 Conclusion]] ### 🔗 References - [EmDash GitHub Repository](https://github.com/m-cms) - [Cloudflare Workers Documentation](https://developers.cloudflare.com/workers/) - [Astro Web Framework](https://astro.build/) ## 📝 Summary - Cloudflare launched EmDash, a new CMS calling itself the "spiritual successor" to WordPress - Built on Astro with sandboxed plugin architecture using Cloudflare Workers - Designed to be familiar to WordPress users while addressing security and modern development needs - Strong initial community response with hundreds of PRs and active development - Open source with MIT licensing, deployable beyond Cloudflare platform ## 📖 Main Content EmDash represents Cloudflare's attempt to create a modern content management system that captures WordPress's accessibility and extensibility while addressing its security vulnerabilities and technical debt. The project emerged from a top-down directive from Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince to "build the next WordPress." The system uses Astro as its foundation and implements a sandboxed plugin architecture through Cloudflare's dynamic workers, similar to mobile app permission systems. This approach grants plugins specific capabilities at install time rather than full system access. The team designed EmDash to be familiar to WordPress users, matching concepts like posts, pages, and user roles while modernizing the underlying architecture. Key technical decisions include MIT licensing for greater commercial flexibility, support for distributed plugin marketplaces, and platform-agnostic deployment despite Cloudflare-specific optimizations. The project has generated significant community interest with rapid contribution rates and plugin development. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/etL7Ket9om8?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and Context - Key idea: Special episode at PressComp with Cloudflare team discussing EmDash - Evidence: "Launched on April 1st saying they are the spiritual successor of WordPress" #### ⏱️ [02:30](https://youtu.be/etL7Ket9om8?t=150) — [H2] Meet the EmDash Team - Key idea: Team brings publishing and media experience plus Astro framework expertise - Evidence: "TK worked at Financial Times on CMSs, Matt Kane is Astro core maintainer" #### ⏱️ [05:45](https://youtu.be/etL7Ket9om8?t=345) — [H1] Origin Story from CEO Directive - Key idea: Project originated from top-down request to "build the next WordPress" - Evidence: "Matthew Prince, our CEO, said what can we do to build the next WordPress now?" #### ⏱️ [08:20](https://youtu.be/etL7Ket9om8?t=500) — [H2] AI-Enabled Development Approach - Key idea: AI agents made the ambitious project feasible within two months - Evidence: "Too daunting until the advent of agents that were able to help us on this" #### ⏱️ [10:15](https://youtu.be/etL7Ket9om8?t=615) — [H1] Spiritual Successor Philosophy - Key idea: Familiar WordPress concepts with modern architecture, not exact copy - Evidence: "We call it a spiritual successor. Not designed to be one for one match" #### ⏱️ [12:40](https://youtu.be/etL7Ket9om8?t=760) — [H2] Platform Portability Strategy - Key idea: Deployable anywhere Astro runs, not locked to Cloudflare platform - Evidence: "People have deployed it to Vercel and to Netlify. We want everyone to run this everywhere" #### ⏱️ [15:30](https://youtu.be/etL7Ket9om8?t=930) — [H1] Plugin Sandboxing Innovation - Key idea: Mobile app-style permission model for plugin security - Evidence: "Best analog for plugins are mobile apps. Capabilities are limited and granular, defined at install time" #### ⏱️ [18:45](https://youtu.be/etL7Ket9om8?t=1125) — [H2] Core vs Plugin Philosophy - Key idea: Common WordPress plugin functionality built into EmDash core - Evidence: "Everyone installs SEO plugins, roll plugins. Should those things really be plugins?" #### ⏱️ [21:20](https://youtu.be/etL7Ket9om8?t=1280) — [H3] Yoast Contribution Example - Key idea: Major WordPress plugin authors already contributing to EmDash - Evidence: "PR authored by Yoast, the creator of Yoast. His entire plugin was based on something missing from WordPress" #### ⏱️ [23:45](https://youtu.be/etL7Ket9om8?t=1425) — [H1] Governance and Community Structure - Key idea: Separate GitHub organization and Discord for community governance - Evidence: "Not on github.com/cloudflare. It's github.com/m-cms. We want it to be part of a community thing" #### ⏱️ [26:15](https://youtu.be/etL7Ket9om8?t=1575) — [H2] Distributed Plugin Marketplace Vision - Key idea: Federated marketplace where everyone can publish and discoveries are shared - Evidence: "Want to do a distributed plugin store. Everyone to be able to publish and be federated together" #### ⏱️ [29:30](https://youtu.be/etL7Ket9om8?t=1770) — [H3] Theme Architecture Differences - Key idea: Astro-based themes work differently than WordPress, AI may replace visual editors - Evidence: "Theme is really just a site in its own right. AI agent may replace drag and drop panels" #### ⏱️ [31:20](https://youtu.be/etL7Ket9om8?t=1880) — [H2] MIT Licensing for Commercial Flexibility - Key idea: MIT license enables more business models than GPL - Evidence: "MIT licensing gives people more flexibility. GPL causes issues for people selling themes and plugins" #### ⏱️ [33:45](https://youtu.be/etL7Ket9om8?t=2025) — [H1] Cloudflare's Commitment Response - Key idea: Overwhelming positive response changed internal roadmap priorities - Evidence: "Q2 roadmap has been question mark. We have blown away every possible expectation" #### ⏱️ [36:10](https://youtu.be/etL7Ket9om8?t=2170) — [H2] Ground Floor Opportunity for Developers - Key idea: Early adopters can shape the platform and build successful plugins - Evidence: "You are in the ground floor. You have opportunity to build the blockbuster plugin for EmDash" ## 📚 References - [EmDash Official Repository](https://github.com/m-cms) - [Astro Documentation](https://docs.astro.build/) - [Cloudflare Workers Platform](https://workers.cloudflare.com/) - [FAIR Plugin Proposal](https://github.com/WordPress/wp-plugin-infrastructure) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Cloudflare created EmDash as a modern CMS that captures WordPress's familiar concepts while addressing security and architecture limitations through sandboxed plugins - The project originated from CEO-level direction to build "the next WordPress" using AI assistance and modern web technologies like Astro - EmDash implements mobile app-style permission systems for plugins and aims for platform portability despite Cloudflare optimizations ## 📰 Newsletter **EmDash Emerges as WordPress Alternative with Familiar Concepts** Cloudflare has launched EmDash, a new content management system that positions itself as the "spiritual successor" to WordPress. Built on the Astro web framework, EmDash brings familiar WordPress concepts like posts, pages, and user roles to a modern, security-focused architecture. The key innovation is EmDash's sandboxed plugin system, which grants specific permissions at install time rather than full system access. This mobile app-inspired approach addresses one of WordPress's biggest security challenges while maintaining extensibility. For WordPress developers, EmDash offers ground-floor opportunities with MIT licensing enabling flexible business models. The platform has already attracted contributions from major WordPress plugin authors, including Yoast's creator. **Key Resources:** - **Learn WordPress**: [Developer Training](https://learn.wordpress.org/) - **EmDash Repository**: [GitHub Organization](https://github.com/m-cms) - **Astro Framework**: [Documentation](https://astro.build/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create EmDash vs WordPress comparison content for developers - Education: Develop workshops on migrating WordPress concepts to EmDash architecture - Developer experience: Document WordPress-to-EmDash plugin migration patterns - Developer marketing: Position as early-adopter opportunity in modern CMS space - Community management: Monitor EmDash Discord for developer feedback and pain points #### WordPress - Core: Evaluate EmDash innovations for potential WordPress adoption (sandboxing, AI integration) - Core Performance: Compare Astro-based performance with WordPress optimization efforts - Core AI: Accelerate AI-native features to compete with EmDash's AI-first approach - Community: Address developer concerns about WordPress's pace of innovation - Plugins: Research improved plugin security models inspired by EmDash sandboxing - Themes: Explore modern theme architectures that compete with Astro-based approaches #### Community - Maintainers: Assess whether EmDash's rapid development model offers lessons for WordPress governance - Contributors: Evaluate opportunities to contribute to both WordPress and EmDash ecosystems - Sponsors: Consider strategic involvement in EmDash development while supporting WordPress ## 🧪 Hypotheses - EmDash's sandboxed plugin architecture will reduce security vulnerabilities compared to WordPress - MIT licensing will attract more commercial plugin developers than GPL-licensed alternatives - Astro-based themes will require less customization overhead than WordPress themes - AI-first development approach will accelerate EmDash feature development beyond traditional CMS cycles ### 📊 Methodology - Security analysis comparing plugin vulnerability rates between sandboxed and traditional architectures - Developer survey on licensing preferences for commercial plugin development - Performance benchmarking of Astro vs WordPress theme rendering - Feature development velocity tracking for AI-assisted vs traditional development ### ❓ Questions - Can WordPress implement sandboxed plugin architecture without breaking backward compatibility? - Will EmDash's community governance model avoid the centralization issues affecting WordPress? - How will the distributed plugin marketplace handle security vetting and quality control? ### 🔮 Future Research - Long-term sustainability of AI-driven development approaches in open source projects - Community dynamics comparison between WordPress and EmDash ecosystems - Market adoption patterns for WordPress alternatives in enterprise environments ### 💡 Implications - Practice: WordPress developers should evaluate EmDash for new projects while monitoring migration patterns - Policy: WordPress governance may need acceleration to compete with faster-moving alternatives - Security: Sandboxed plugin models could become industry standard for CMS platforms - Education: Developer training should include modern CMS alternatives alongside WordPress - Funding: Investment in WordPress core development becomes more urgent to maintain competitive position ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Grade 12-13 (technical content with domain-specific terminology) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Architecture diagrams, plugin comparison charts - Improve: EmDash vs WordPress feature matrices, security model visualizations #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full podcast discussion with WordPress and EmDash perspectives - Improve: Technical deep-dive audio segments on specific features #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Extensive analogies (mobile apps, operating systems) - Improve: Glossary of technical terms, real-world usage examples #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Hands-on plugin development examples mentioned - Improve: Step-by-step EmDash installation guide, WordPress migration checklist #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Technical architecture comparisons, decision trees for platform selection - Improve: Performance metrics, security vulnerability analysis #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community discussion format, Discord community references - Improve: Collaborative plugin development guides, community contribution pathways #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual exploration opportunities mentioned - Improve: Self-paced learning modules, independent project ideas #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Ecosystem metaphors for plugin marketplaces - Improve: Platform evolution analogies, community growth patterns ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure in discussion format - Improve: Transcript with proper landmark roles, technical term definitions #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard YouTube video controls - Improve: Chapter navigation, keyboard shortcuts for technical segments #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard video player interface - Improve: High contrast transcript option, larger text for code examples #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive YouTube interface - Improve: Scalable transcript with preserved technical formatting #### Media and captions - Present: Auto-generated captions available - Improve: Professional captions with technical term accuracy #### Forms and interactions - Present: Standard video interaction controls - Improve: Accessible comment interaction, technical discussion threading ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Multiple perspectives from different team backgrounds - Improve: Global developer community perspectives, international use cases #### Inclusive language - Present: Technical discussion remains professional - Improve: Avoid competitive language that dismisses alternative approaches #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Structured conversation with clear topic transitions - Improve: Chapter markers, topic summaries for easier navigation #### Representation - Present: Technical leadership from diverse professional backgrounds - Improve: Include perspectives from various developer experience levels #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful discussion of competing technologies - Improve: Acknowledge legitimate concerns about platform adoption risks ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Technical architecture comparison follows logical principles - Inductive strength: Community response patterns support adoption predictions - Causal reasoning: Security improvements linked to sandboxing architecture - Analogical strength: Mobile app permission model effectively explains plugin system #### Fallacies - Appeal to novelty: Assumption that newer technology is inherently better - False dichotomy: Framing as WordPress vs EmDash rather than complementary tools #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Professional and exploratory, balanced between enthusiasm and critical evaluation ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No problematic denial patterns observed - Attack: No attacks on competing platforms or communities - Reverse victim/offender: No victim/offender dynamics present - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Balanced technical discussion without manipulative elements ## 🎯 Conclusion EmDash represents a significant technical advancement in CMS architecture, particularly in plugin security and modern development practices. Its early success demonstrates demand for WordPress alternatives that maintain familiar concepts while addressing fundamental limitations. WordPress developers should monitor EmDash's evolution closely, both as potential competition and as a source of architectural innovations that could benefit the WordPress ecosystem. The ground-floor opportunity for plugin developers is genuine, though success will depend on EmDash's long-term adoption and Cloudflare's sustained commitment. The --- ## Full Transcript [00:01] Hey everybody. [00:01] Welcome, welcome. [00:02] This is a special episode of WP Product Talk where, uh, Zack and [00:08] I are in the same room at the same time, which is weird for us. [00:13] Um, and we are here at Press Comp, uh, this week in Tempe, Arizona, [00:18] enjoying the conference here. [00:20] Uh, and they were kind enough to let us use this room, um, for this [00:24] special episode where we have. [00:26] Two other Matts as well. [00:28] We have some rules. [00:29] We're going to talk about the mat situation here, but last week you might've [00:33] seen, uh, online an announcement, uh, that ironically happened on April 1st. [00:38] Uh, but it was true, uh, that Cloudflare has launched a new product called EmDash [00:43] and um, they launched it saying that they are the spiritual successor of WordPress. [00:48] And so we were like. [00:50] I wonder if you all would like to talk about that with some WordPress folks. [00:54] Uh, and they were kind enough to say yes. [00:55] So Matt TK, Matt Kane, thank you so much for being here. [01:00] Um, uh, we are privileged to be able to talk with you about it [01:04] and I'd love if you can introduce yourselves, um, a little bit. [01:08] Um, oh, sorry. [01:09] The Matt Rules, we talked about this earlier, so [01:12] everybody can call me Cromwell. [01:14] People call me Cromwell all the time. [01:15] We decided Matt Taylor is gonna be TK. [01:18] Is that right? [01:19] Um, yes, and then Matt Kane gets the privilege of being called Matt. [01:23] So, um, [01:24] I'm honored. [01:25] I'm honored, [01:28] but, uh, TK, can you introduce yourself? [01:30] Tell us a little bit about what you do, where you're from, um, and, [01:33] uh, what brings you here today? [01:35] For sure. [01:36] Um, thanks for inviting on the podcast. [01:38] Uh, yeah. [01:38] Hi everyone. [01:39] I'm TK. [01:39] I am a senior product manager at Cloudflare. [01:42] Um, I joined Cloudflare late last year and, uh, worked here in London on [01:47] the, um, authoring and testing team. [01:50] Probably better known as like the Wrangler team. [01:52] So, uh, interface for a lot of developers into the Cloudflare developer platform. [01:57] Um, and EmDash is something that I was kind of thrown into through [02:01] basically my past experience. [02:03] So last kind of decade of my life, I have been working in publishing and media. [02:08] Uh, for the last four years I was a product manager at the Financial Times, [02:11] working on content management systems. [02:13] Uh, the FT has actually built their own, uh, very bespoke system. [02:17] Um, and prior to that. [02:18] I was at, uh, news Corp, who are a large WordPress customer and [02:22] have been, um, migrating a lot of content to WordPress over many years. [02:25] Um, so yeah. [02:27] Um, joined Matt on his quest, um, in, uh, kind of February this year [02:32] and have been enjoying the ride. [02:34] Excellent. [02:35] And Matt Kane. [02:37] Hi. [02:38] Um, yeah, I am. [02:39] I'm Matt Kane. [02:39] I'm also in England. [02:41] Um, I'm a senior principal engineer at Cloudflare. [02:45] Um, I joined around the same time as, as TK did to the, the, [02:49] towards the end of last year. [02:50] Um, I am also, I think, more relevantly here. [02:54] I am one of the core team of the Astro Web framework, so a few of your, some of [03:00] your listeners and viewers may, may know of, of Astro, but I've been a. Maintainer [03:04] of Astro for about, about two years now. [03:07] And I was, before joining Astro, I was the lead on the framework. [03:11] Awesome. [03:13] Cool. [03:13] Cool. [03:13] Thanks so much for being here. [03:14] Um, and we wanted to jump in with some questions. [03:17] I think, Zack, you got the first question? [03:19] Yeah. [03:19] So, uh, can you tell us more about how you ended up building a CMS at Cloudflare? [03:24] Uh, we'd love to hear the, the story of how that actually, uh, came about. [03:29] Well, I will, I will take this one because it was, um, it was one [03:32] of these things that came to me. [03:34] Um, I actually only found out the full details of how this happened, [03:38] um, uh, only yesterday, in fact. [03:40] So the previous story that I told was that I was, um, nerd sniped by [03:44] Dane, RCTO, now, nerd Snipe, as in. [03:48] Somebody threw me a challenging and very fun problem. [03:52] Now, what he told me yesterday is that this was actually from math. [03:55] Another Matthew, Matthew Prince, our CEO, that he just passed on to me. [03:59] Yeah. [04:00] So he basically said to me, what can we do to, can we build the next WordPress now? [04:08] This is something that is a, I I mean this is something that particularly [04:14] astro, um, maintainers have been thinking about a lot, and it's one [04:18] that I personally have been thinking about quite a lot for a few years. [04:22] And, um, so it was obviously a challenge that I could not. [04:27] Refuse, I mean, quite apart from the fact that it came from the CEO, um, but [04:31] it was one that I had also already spent quite a lot of time thinking about. [04:35] Yeah. [04:35] So this was the kind of the, the way this came in, and from, as I [04:39] understand it, this is something that people at Cloudflare had been thinking [04:43] about for a while, but it, it'd been. [04:45] Too daunting a task, um, until the advent of agents, the AI, [04:52] that were able to help us on this. [04:53] So that was effectively, my, my task was that I want, I was going to create what I [05:00] felt was the, the kind of what WordPress would be if it was created in 2026. [05:07] Um, and I was gonna do it. [05:10] With the, you know, the help of an unlimited token budget. [05:14] And this was basically what I was, what I was set out to do, and that's what [05:17] I've been doing for the past two months. [05:19] Yeah, that's amazing. [05:20] I, uh, I'll say I tested out and astro quite a bit last year, [05:24] and I, I immediately was like, how can I tack a CMS onto this? [05:28] Um, and I, what [05:30] everyone says is what everyone says. [05:31] Yeah, [05:32] I mean, it works great and it works great with Cursor out of the [05:35] box and, um, it was really good. [05:37] But the, I was, I tried out Story Block, um, that seemed to be highly, um, [05:43] suggested and also tested out, uh, sanity. [05:47] Um, and they take a very unique and different approach to CMSs. [05:53] Um, but it seems like EmDash is a lot more. [05:56] WordPress esque. [05:57] Was that on purpose? [06:00] 100%. We, we built this very much with the WordPress. [06:06] WordPress at the front of our mind. [06:09] You know, we, we weren't. [06:11] We weren't trying to port WordPress or trying to build, uh, an exact copy [06:17] of WordPress, but we were wanting to build something that would be [06:20] familiar to WordPress developers and WordPress users, and we did that [06:26] by matching as much as we could. [06:29] The concepts from WordPress. [06:32] So this is why we call it a spiritual successor. [06:34] This is not designed to be a one for one match, but it is supposed to be. [06:39] Bringing the parts that you love from WordPress into a, into a modern CMS. [06:44] And I think that's kind of where we've gone is we've like looked [06:48] at, at every decision, every stage of every decision we made. [06:51] We've looked at how did WordPress do that? [06:54] Is this, is this something that people like about how WordPress did it? [06:59] If yes, we will probably take it on. [07:01] If not, we'll think about why, why people don't like it, and [07:05] think about the other ways that we might be able to do that instead. [07:08] So when you say it's more of a familiar successor than a spiritual, I think [07:12] the word spiritual has, uh, the open source community and the WordPress [07:16] community has, has been trying to parse what, what that, what is meant by that. [07:20] So your goal w was to make it familiar for people who were [07:23] migrating from WordPress to EmDash. [07:25] Not so much to, uh, a, a bigger question of, um, the, the nature of WordPress [07:32] itself, just like the interface and the, the concepts and the structure of EmDash. [07:37] Would be something that you could transfer the knowledge of how, how to use the, [07:43] yeah, I, I think that's a key part of it is that we know there's a lot [07:47] of people that are very familiar with the WordPress interface posts pages. [07:52] The way it kind of like fundamentally ties together. [07:55] You know, we've, um, been inspired by the, the role system in WordPress and mm-hmm. [08:00] That is identical, you know. [08:02] Um, but at the same time, I think there's something that WordPress was to a lot of. [08:08] Developers in the kind of early days of its growth, where it was the kind [08:15] of stumbling block that you would run through and FTPing it onto a server, et [08:19] cetera, right, to learn programming and play around with databases and content [08:25] management, because that was the kind of defacto standard, and I think like as. [08:31] You have an entirely new generation of people kind of entering the internet [08:35] and building things on the internet, especially with the advent of agents, and [08:39] that was obviously a huge part of EmDash. [08:41] I'm sure we can talk about, um. [08:44] I don't think WordPress is really the tool of choice for those, those kinds of users. [08:49] And often it's things like Astro that are promoted as, oh, build a site with Astro. [08:56] But then where is that kind of like word pressy element that enables you to pull [09:02] together some content user database, like, you know, make some of the. [09:06] Bits that you don't really want to spend loads of tokens on, or you don't really [09:09] want to be hacking around in the HTML or markdown files to do much, much easier. [09:13] And I think that that was a key component of what you're building here, is it's [09:17] this really extensible system that sits on top of a lot of very modern [09:21] technology to do the thing that WordPress would do, but is actually not very [09:26] well suited for at this point in time. [09:28] Yeah. [09:29] Interesting. [09:30] I think one, um, thing that, um, stood out when what Zack was leaning on a [09:36] little bit, the, the idea of the spiritual successor, um, was that one of the [09:42] things that's really important to the WordPress ecosystem is the way WordPress [09:47] allows you to own your own content. [09:49] Um, and to, for that content to be portable. [09:53] Um, and it kind of. [09:55] Feels different with EmDash since it seems to be at the moment. [09:59] Very, um, Cloudflare Pages specific. [10:02] Um, is that also intentional and is there a plan to, um, [10:07] allow EmDash to be installed in any host or anything like that? [10:12] To, to be clear what the EmDash is able to be installed anywhere that [10:19] Astro can be installed, which is. [10:21] Most places, it is by default, a pure node JS app. [10:26] You can run it as a node. [10:28] Um, and people, you know, we've got official stuff already in there talking [10:32] about how to deploy it to, to railway. [10:34] It's, and, and it works on, people have deployed it to CEL and to Netlify. [10:41] The, we built it. [10:43] With Cloudflare in mind because we work at Cloudflare. [10:48] Yeah, yeah. [10:48] But at the same time, you know my, I have been working in open [10:53] source for a very long time. [10:55] I've been building web frameworks for like, over about six years now. [11:00] So before Astro I was working on Gatsby, if people may remember that. [11:04] And. [11:05] I am very much, you know, I'm very, very keen to make sure [11:10] that this works everywhere. [11:11] 'cause that's one of the great beauties of WordPress is that you can stick it on a $5 [11:16] VPS somewhere and it will, it will work. [11:18] But the, what the idea here is that the thing that we were super, super [11:23] keen that this was gonna be able to do is run in a serverless environment. [11:27] So, you know, it should be able to run in an AWS Lambda, it should be able to run [11:31] on a, um, on netlify functions or versal. [11:35] Or Cloudflare workers, and this was the idea is we wanted this [11:39] to be as portable as possible. [11:41] Now there are features in there which only work on WordPress. [11:45] On, on only work on on Cloudflare. [11:47] Yeah. [11:48] But um. [11:49] We, this is not an inherent thing on them. [11:52] This is not something that we have deliberately done. [11:54] This is because they are using things that are, um, only available on the [11:59] word prep on the Cloudflare platform. [12:01] I'm gonna keep making that mistake. [12:03] Um, and, but. [12:05] But we are, you know, our users are c the community that suddenly sprung [12:10] up in the last week are already, you know, tackling those problems. [12:15] And I, you know, we are very, very happy that they are doing this. [12:18] Yeah. [12:18] 'cause, you know, to make this clear to, to make this as clear [12:21] as we can, we want everyone to be able to run this everywhere. [12:24] Okay. [12:25] You know, we are not using this as a thing to try and lock people into [12:28] Cloudflare because No, no CMS is gonna succeed if that's what they're doing. [12:33] Yeah. [12:34] You [12:34] know, nobody is going to want to deploy something that only runs on Cloudflare. [12:39] Yeah. [12:39] We want people to deploy to Cloudflare because we think Cloudflare is a [12:42] fantastic platform and provides lots of things outta the box that [12:45] other platforms don't provide. [12:46] But at the same time, if you want to run this on your $5 VPS. [12:50] You can, you can deploy it as a note JS app and it will work on, um, on [12:56] your same VPS that you are running PHP on or you know, you can put it in [13:01] a docker image or what, or whatever. [13:02] Yeah. [13:03] And this is very much what we want to make clear and, you know, the initial. [13:08] S talk has been all about Cloudflare because, you know [13:11] it is a Cloudflare project. [13:12] Yeah. [13:12] It has been built by Cloudflare, but we don't want that to be where it goes. [13:16] So this is why we've created it in a separate like GitHub organization. [13:20] We've got a separate, separate Discord community because we want [13:24] to be able to take this further. [13:25] So it is started as a Cloudflare project and it runs particularly well [13:29] on Cloudflare, but we want it to go beyond Cloudflare and we want it to [13:33] be, um, um, accessible to everybody. [13:35] So one of the questions, uh, sorry, uh, is about plugin sandboxing. [13:40] That's one of the main features that EmDash launched with is saying that, [13:43] that, that, that is one of the problems with WordPress is that plugins have the [13:47] ability to bring down a site or like they have too much scope of like, uh, in [13:51] terms of what they can do on the website. [13:53] So, um, will that, are there plans to make that, uh, non-exclusive to Cloudflare? [14:01] There are not just plans, there are people working on it at the moment. [14:05] This is, this is something that we knew would happen straight away. [14:08] It was one thing that it, I would've implemented it. [14:12] Like at launch, if I could have done it without like, huge amounts of work. [14:16] Yeah. [14:16] Yeah. [14:16] This has been a big, big, big thing to work on. [14:19] You know, I did implement as much on, on Node that I could easily, I was [14:25] hoping that people could jump into it. [14:29] I spoken to some of the people on, uh, work at Cloudflare who are. [14:32] No JS maintainers who have got, you know, deep knowledge in there. [14:36] And there are people in our Discord community now who are tackling [14:41] this from several different angles. [14:43] They've got thoughts about different ways that this could be run. [14:46] The thing is the dynamic workers that we are using for this from Cloudflare are [14:52] just particularly well suited for it. [14:54] They weren't created for this, they were created mainly to be able to run [14:58] AI generated codes in a secure sandbox. [15:01] But while I was, you know, one of the first things I was thinking [15:05] about when I was thinking how am I going to design this as a, you know, [15:09] as a product and a platform you. [15:11] Is how are plugins going to work? [15:14] Because, you know, we all know that plugins are what makes WordPress, [15:18] you know, that is, that is the thing that defines WordPress and [15:22] what makes it such a huge success. [15:24] So the big thing that I had to think is how are we going to make [15:27] work plugins work well on this? [15:30] Because, you know, we, we know also that they are. [15:34] WordPress is greatest failing in terms of, in terms of security, [15:38] in terms of, you know, the many, many issues that come from it. [15:42] So I wanted to think about a way that we could do this better and I immediately [15:46] just suddenly thought, wait a second, we've got this, this product that [15:50] would be absolutely perfect for it. [15:52] And I. Uh, when I implemented that, I made sure that I, it worked without it. [15:57] So you can run it without the sandboxing. [16:00] Yeah. [16:00] But I wanted it to be possible to use this as a, as a thing that was going to be, um, [16:05] that was going to be secure and sandboxed. [16:07] So, you know, I want everybody to be able to run it on sandbox because apart [16:10] from anything, it just makes it a lot easier to be able to have this, these [16:14] plugin marketplaces and things like that. [16:17] As it stands, it's, it's Cloudflare only for there. [16:19] But, you know, look from the speed of development that's going on in [16:22] the repo at the moment, I imagine that there will be something next [16:25] week that's gonna be working with working that's gonna run on notes. [16:28] So, you know, watch this space. [16:30] It has been really amazing to see so much activity on that repo, on the several [16:35] of the repos, um, o overnight almost. [16:37] Um, TK you were gonna chime in a minute ago. [16:41] I didn't, we [16:41] Yeah. [16:42] I, I was just gonna add to, uh, to Matt's point that, um, dynamic workers [16:46] is an awesome primitive, and I think. [16:48] The way that Cloudflare's kind of dx through bindings in your worker makes [16:53] all of that stuff really accessible is really kind of like our big selling point. [16:57] Um, and of course like how that works with EmDash is really like [17:02] sensible and unique as well. [17:03] But this is not like a unique thing that Cloudflare will only [17:08] be able to do in the future. [17:09] I'm sure there are lots of companies that are working on the same [17:11] kind of thing because Asmat says. [17:12] The kind of future of this, uh, dynamic workers proposition [17:16] is really not EmDash at all. [17:18] It's and plugins at all. [17:19] It is all base baked into how we need somewhere that is secure and [17:24] isolated to run AI generated code. [17:26] Yeah. [17:26] And lots and lots and lots of places have that same problem. [17:28] So I think the, the problem space, as Matt says, it's being worked on and there'll [17:32] be other solutions that come out for sure. [17:35] Yeah, I think related to that, um. [17:38] You know, I, I, I think you all nail, um, narrowed in on the fact that yes, [17:44] the plugin ecosystem in WordPress is what makes WordPress successful, but [17:47] it also is the biggest vector, uh, from a security perspective for sure. [17:52] Um, but at the same time. [17:54] Um, it's hard to imagine having the ability to customize your website, [18:00] um, when the, if, if a plugin was restricted from interacting with [18:04] the database or things like that. [18:06] Um, can you speak a little bit to that? [18:08] Because, uh, I'm having a hard time like. [18:12] One plugin I install on every single WordPress website is a user role editor. [18:16] It basically lets me customize my users to have different capabilities [18:20] and roles and things like that. [18:22] I'm not sure something like that would be possible on EmDash, um, for example, [18:26] uh, because of the sandbox nature. [18:28] Um, can you, can you speak a little bit to that and what, what, what do you lose [18:32] when, um, with this approach essentially? [18:35] So I think the, probably the best analog to think of for the, for the way that [18:39] the plugins work here are mobile apps. [18:42] So the points that these, that we've done with these plugins is we still give them [18:47] capabilities, but those capabilities are. [18:51] Limited and granular, and they are defined at install time. [18:56] So if you are installing something that is calling a web hook when you are publishing [19:02] something, then you know that it does want to be able to access any, anywhere [19:05] on the internet so that it's able to, you know, um, hit an arbitrary endpoint. [19:10] But if you are doing something that is supposed to be adding a banner into your, [19:15] you know, into your page, you shouldn't, it shouldn't be something that is able [19:18] to access the internet independently. [19:20] Why? [19:20] Why should it be doing that? [19:21] And equally, it shouldn't be able to access your database and it shouldn't [19:25] be able to access your emails. [19:26] But if you are installing, uh, a plugin that is an email provider. [19:30] Then you want it to be able to have access to emails, but probably [19:34] doesn't need access to, you know, user accounts for example. [19:38] But the idea here is that these may have lots of capabilities, [19:44] but they are granular and they can be granted where they are needed. [19:49] And I think this is the point, is that if the, the, the most of the issues that [19:54] you get with plugins are about them. [19:56] Grabbing much more, um, use much more capabilities than [20:00] they, than they should have. [20:02] And the problem with the WordPress is there's no way of limiting that. [20:05] As soon as any plugin that you install, your little sale banner [20:08] can go in there and, you know, exfiltrate your entire user database. [20:12] Yeah. [20:12] And can, you know, pull out your products and everything. [20:15] Whereas with EmDash, you, you know, you know what you're getting when [20:18] you install it and you know it will. [20:21] It will have very specified, um, uh, capabilities that it's [20:25] able to, that it's able to do. [20:27] And, um, it has, and if it's, um, if it's contacting the internet, you can have [20:32] it that it's limited to specific hosts. [20:35] And, um, we, you know, we've launched with a particular set of, um, [20:40] capabilities and APIs that they have. [20:43] But, you know, at the moment there are dozens of people already in, in [20:47] the, um, EmDash discord that are. [20:50] Planning their plugins that they're working on and, but also bringing [20:54] up things about, you know, what, which hooks are missing and which [20:57] capabilities are missing and which ones that they want to add. [21:00] So, you know, we are at a very, very early stage here. [21:03] Yeah. [21:03] You know, it is literally one week since we launch this [21:05] thing. [21:05] Yeah. [21:06] But we are able to add these, these things and, you know, every piece that we've [21:12] added, we've thought really carefully about how we can do this in a secure way. [21:16] Yeah. [21:16] So, for example, we do allow them to generate. [21:20] User interface in the, in the admin panel. [21:22] Now that could, in theory be a risky thing to do because, you know, if you [21:26] are generating UI, you might be able to use it to, to, um, access user data. [21:31] So we have generated, we've used a language that is similar to Slack's [21:35] block kit that allows you to. [21:36] Define user interface in a way that is secure. [21:39] Mm-hmm. [21:40] And then we've also provided APIs for injecting, um, meta tags into [21:45] the head and tags into the footer. [21:48] But they are, things you could inject are limited, so they are very specific. [21:51] So you can't, you know, you're not able to in, um, if you've. [21:55] If you granted something that is, that you want to be able to inject analytics, it's [21:59] not gonna be able to inject other things that are not supposed to be in there. [22:02] So this is, this is the, the point about it. [22:04] It's not about making it so that these are, you know, these, these [22:09] are plugins that can't do anything. [22:10] It's about making sure that they're plugins that do the [22:12] thing that they're supposed to be doing, and not more than that. [22:16] Yeah. [22:16] I also think there's a, there's a completely different angle, sorry, [22:19] Cromwell to, to just jump on your point. [22:20] It's like if you're installing a plugin on every site that you encounter, I think [22:25] some of the things that we've tried out with EmDash is thinking, well, everyone [22:28] installs, like these SEO plugins, everyone installs a roll plugin, let's say, right? [22:33] Yeah. [22:33] Maybe some of these things in WordPress's time were just not considered as [22:38] part of core development because. [22:40] These plugins exist and this ecosystem exists, and we want to [22:43] support that, that plugin ecosystem. [22:45] But should those things really be plugins, the ability to say what an [22:48] editor has access to do, or a subscriber has access to do or whatever, right? [22:52] These feel like capabilities that should just generally exist. [22:56] So I do think there's an opportunity in EmDash two rethink the kinds of things [23:00] that typically might have been a plugin. [23:02] Yeah. [23:02] And say. [23:03] Should that be core, like we've got rid effectively of a lot of what, um, [23:08] advanced custom fields did for WordPress by just allowing you to define different [23:12] content types and, and set the properties that exist for those content types. [23:16] I, it, it seems odd to me that WordPress has not addressed these things for [23:20] the many years it's been alive. [23:21] Um, and I think it is really good opportunity to rethink. [23:28] Um, I think TK froze up there. [23:30] We lost lost TK. [23:31] I was gonna, I was gonna add a, a thing to there. [23:34] That was quite a nice, um. [23:36] That was quite a nice detail on, on that because as, as TK [23:40] was, was hinting about there. [23:42] We, we have a lot of the SEO things built in. [23:46] Um, I merged a, a PR into our repo yesterday. [23:51] That, um, added, that improved the way that the OG images were, um, [23:57] injected for, for in the SEO, um, fields that, uh, that PR was authored [24:02] by Yost, the creator of Yost. [24:05] Yeah. [24:05] Yeah. [24:05] So his, you know, this is, this is the kind of, you know, the, his, [24:10] his entire plugin was based on the fact that this was effectively [24:13] something that was missing from [24:15] Yeah. [24:15] Um, from there. [24:16] But he has also created a plugin that adds the extra bits of SEO that you [24:19] don't need, necessarily need everywhere. [24:21] And I think that's kind of the, the, the approach that we want to take to this is [24:25] think about exactly which bits does do basically every single site need and then [24:30] put those in the core, but, but still leave things in plugins that are not [24:35] going to be needed by every single person. [24:37] Yeah. [24:38] So one question that brings up is, uh, governance and how EmDash [24:43] will be managed moving forward. [24:44] Uh, can you talk about how you see that happening? [24:49] I think Matt could probably talk a bit to it because, um, yeah, he's, [24:52] he's done a lot more in open source previously, but I would also just point [24:55] to we one weekend where, yeah, you saw [24:57] Scrambled talked briefly about, about the future of EmDash from that regard. [25:01] Yeah. [25:01] Since that is one of the questions regarding WordPress, uh, community. [25:05] Mm-hmm. [25:06] Yeah, absolutely. [25:07] I mean, I. I, I'm, I would be lying if this wasn't something that was, you know, [25:12] quite high on my mind at the moment. [25:14] Yeah. [25:14] Um, as, as, um, as TK said, I do have, you know, and I, as I hinted before, I've got, [25:20] you know, got quite a lot of experience in, um, uh, open source maintenance for, [25:24] you know, particularly for large projects. [25:26] This has obviously been built out as a project from Cloudflare, but it's [25:33] always been something where we have. [25:37] Wanted it to be something that would be like part a community thing. [25:41] So this is why we have not launched it. [25:43] As you know, it's not on github.com/um Cloudflare. [25:47] It's github.com/m-cms Now. [25:50] One, the, that side of the, um, the, the governance is one thing. [25:56] We've obviously there is the whole thing of an open source project and [25:59] the governance and the who roles are and all that kind of thing. [26:02] At the moment, that is me going, oh my God, I have got like a hundred [26:07] PRS open and I've merged 20 today and there's another 30 that have opened. [26:12] Um, who am I gonna, you know, bring on board to do that? [26:14] That at the moment is. [26:17] You know, to be determined, but I think there is also the [26:19] technical side of it as well. [26:21] So, for example, you know, there is the, one of the ways that the governance [26:27] is obviously an issue with, with WordPress is, is the, the plugin store. [26:31] You know, that is a. You know, a key, A key part. [26:35] Yeah. [26:35] What we want to do is do a distributed plugin store, and there's some really, [26:39] really interesting conversations going in on, in Discord and GitHub at the moment [26:44] about how that could be architected. [26:46] And we've been looking at the fair proposal, which, you know, was one [26:49] of the things that was proposed for, for WordPress plugins, that there's [26:53] some interesting things in there. [26:55] But the o one of the other things we've done is that, you know, by there is the, [26:59] we've published the plugin, the plugin marketplace is, is in, you know, is in [27:04] the monorepo and it's open source and anyone can use it and host their own. [27:08] But I'm still not happy with it at the moment. [27:10] 'cause what I want is for everybody to be able to publish all of them and [27:13] them to all be federated together. [27:15] And, you know, I think that's, that's where I see that one going. [27:19] That's interesting. [27:20] Uh, I'd love to hear a little bit more about that specifically 'cause [27:23] we only have a few more minutes left. [27:25] Um, uh, but anything you can say about the plugin marketplace, the [27:29] theme marketplace, um, TK you saw, I put a discussion up there about. [27:35] Parent themes and child themes, that is something that actually was [27:38] a big deal in the WordPress space. [27:40] And, and the, the mindset there is that, uh, if I am a product person [27:45] and I ship a, a theme that works great with Astro and EmDash, um, I want, [27:51] uh, folks to be able to customize things without messing up the core. [27:55] Theme files and things like that. [27:56] That's something that's been, um, a big aspect of WordPress for a long time, [27:59] but that might not be the way forward. [28:01] Uh, when it comes to theme, a theme marketplace in EmDash. [28:04] Um, any details you can provide for our audience about like what [28:09] opportunities there are, uh, for, uh, products, um, on EmDash. [28:15] Yeah, I mean, themes are certainly challenging. [28:17] It's early days. [28:18] Um, but as you'll understand from the architecture, uh, [28:22] Astro works very differently. [28:24] EmDash works very differently. [28:25] So the idea of a theme in kind of astro pilots is really just [28:30] a, a site in its own right. [28:31] And, um, yeah, you'll have seen from some of the examples [28:34] that we've produced, right? [28:35] We have, uh, three entirely different sites that the only commonality. [28:40] Is that they all import the same API in order to bring their posts and pages in, [28:45] and they have this EmDash plugin in order for the administration interface to exist. [28:50] Um, so I think there's a, you know, a huge opportunity for folks to work on. [28:56] Um, you know, what has been a kind of large, you know, astro community [29:02] that are building themes for Astro to think about, okay, what does [29:07] a theme for EmDash look like? [29:09] What does a site for EmDash look like? [29:11] Um, in terms of like customization. [29:13] I think, Matt, you can obviously speak a bit more to this as well. [29:16] Like, there's, there's possibly opportunities where, um, the, the. [29:21] Site itself could expose things that could be changed in the administration panel. [29:24] But I think we're a very long way from something like an Elementor or [29:28] like, you know, full site editing. [29:29] The, the direction that kind of WordPress is going, I think is quite counter to. [29:35] Not only kind of like where EmDash architecturally is kind of at this point [29:38] in time, but also possibly where the internet is going at this point in time [29:42] with the ability for you to kind of conjure up a site or modify a site just [29:47] by talking to a, an AI agent, right? [29:50] Rather than you having to go through multiple panels and drag [29:53] options around and things like that. [29:55] Um, it certainly seems to me that as time goes on, that kind of [29:59] stuff is just gonna get easier and easier and easier and cheaper and. [30:03] Really the different differentiating factor at that point is this [30:06] kind of like system in the back. [30:08] Um, and how does that work? [30:10] Hmm. [30:11] And what about the plugin marketplace? [30:14] Um, is there a monetization aspect that's being considered at all? [30:18] Like again, of course we know you're ve version 0.1, so, but [30:23] any kinds of thoughts and ideas about where that's heading Overall? [30:27] We've definitely had some folks talk to us and, um, kind of reach out and, [30:31] you know, they're commercial entities and they're interested in kind of [30:35] being, you know, first to EmDash and showing that they can produce something. [30:39] Um, you know, we have, uh, the most common obvious example of this, [30:43] uh, kind of email providers, right? [30:45] So if you want to send an email with EmDash, you're going [30:48] to need an email provider. [30:49] And some email providers have already stepped up and said, here is a. You know, [30:54] extension that allows you to do that. [30:56] And the result of that right, is you'll need an API key from that email [31:00] provider, and if you go over whatever their free allocation is, you'll [31:03] be, uh, spending money with them. [31:05] So that's, that's a benefit I think from that perspective. [31:07] I think the other angle of like EmDash being MIT licensed and that effectively [31:12] meaning that the plugins can be licensed in a different way as well, possibly [31:15] opens up that market a bit more, but really interested to see how, how [31:18] that evolves further as time goes on. [31:20] Yeah, but we would very much like people to be able, able to build [31:24] businesses on top of, on top of EmDash. [31:26] You know, the, the MIT licensing thing is one of those, one of those parts of it. [31:32] And I know that, you know, I'm a, I'm an old school open source advocate. [31:36] You know, I've been building open source things for like. [31:38] Well, nearly 30 years now, but I know that the GPL has causes issues for a lot [31:45] of people, particularly people who are trying to sell themes and plugins and, you [31:48] know, it's, it's obviously a great bone of contention in there, but we were very [31:52] keen that we wanted to use the MIT license to give people more flexibility about [31:56] how they are publishing these things. [31:58] And our existing marketplace doesn't have built in support for monetization, but we [32:03] would love people to be able to do that. [32:05] This is something that we. [32:06] You know, we love the way that, you know, for that people have built [32:10] these businesses on top of it. [32:12] And I think that we would like to be able to give people the, the [32:15] kind of flexibility that say a Shopify marketplace is able to give. [32:19] And, um, and we, but equally for, from the marketplace perspective, [32:24] we aren't wanting to be competing with the, the hosting platform. [32:28] So we are not planning to be a, a managed hosting provider either. [32:32] What we are doing is we want to provide you the tools so that you can do that. [32:36] And absolutely, amazingly, somebody has already launched a hosting [32:40] platform for EmDash this week. [32:43] Bet using the tools. [32:43] That's amazing. [32:44] We provided and that's like, you know, this is, that's the [32:46] perfect thing that we want. [32:48] That is what we want to do at this. [32:49] 'cause Cloudflare does isn't, that's not our business. [32:52] We don't do managed hosting. [32:53] Yeah. [32:53] We provide the infrastructure for most of the managed hosts out there. [32:57] So most of the WordPress hosts that you know are using Cloudflare in some form. [33:01] So. [33:01] This is what, you know, this is where we see ourselves fitting within this [33:05] ecosystem is providing, providing the tools for, for everybody else who wants [33:09] to build a business and make lots of money and build some amazing sites on it. [33:14] And can you talk, I, I know, I know we're at time, but, uh, could I, I'm [33:18] sure this question has come up a lot. [33:19] Uh, can you speak to Cloudflare's commitment to EmDash? [33:23] Because WordPress has been around for 20 years and I know that people are [33:26] concerned about if this is a fad or something in the internally, a Cloudflare. [33:31] I think if you asked, and Matt has like, yeah, sorry. [33:34] If you, if you asked us, and Matt has [33:35] absolutely no q2. [33:37] Exactly. [33:38] If, if you'd asked us two weeks ago, we would've said, [33:42] we're gonna see how it goes. [33:43] You know, we want the, we want to see what's going on. [33:45] Before, before Mark, you know, my Q2 roadmap has been like question mark. [33:51] Um, and, um. [33:53] Obviously the response has been incredible. [33:55] You know, we have blown away every possible expectation that [33:59] I could have had from this. [34:00] So there is clearly a massive demand for that, and that has [34:03] not gone unnoticed internally. [34:05] So basically at the moment, the answer is we are trying to work out how, but [34:09] the clear point is that this is something that a lot of people want to be using. [34:13] So we would be crazy to not be resourcing this. [34:16] Yeah. [34:16] So, you know, at the moment we have got a sort of semi roadmap for the way that [34:20] we are gonna be building this over the. [34:22] Over the next six to 12 months. [34:24] But it's not, you know, at the moment all we can say is, yes, this is, people [34:29] want to build with this and we want to help people build with it as well. [34:32] Yeah. [34:32] But equally we want to see how we can build this community as well to make [34:36] it something that, you know, lots of WordPress developers and astro [34:39] developers and you know, any other web developers or who, somebody who's just. [34:45] Downloaded clawed and is trying, trying it out, are I going to be able to build [34:48] things for, 'cause you know, I think it's a golden age of web development [34:51] at the moment, and this is, I want this to be the CMS that people are using. [34:56] Yeah, [34:56] that's [34:56] excellent. [34:56] Yeah, this is gone spectacularly well for us and I, I think it would be, uh, crazy [35:01] if we don't spend a lot more time on it. [35:02] And there's a lot, a lot interest internally about how we, uh, how we [35:06] make this, make this a really big thing. [35:08] That's awesome. [35:09] Well, I really appreciate your time. [35:10] We close every single episode out with our best advice, and [35:15] I'd love to hear from you two. [35:16] Uh, what is your best advice to plugin authors or theme authors out [35:21] there who are considering EmDash? [35:23] Um, what would you tell them as a nutshell? [35:26] Best advice, uh, TK, you want to go first? [35:30] Um, come say hello. [35:32] We, we are, we are very, very approachable. [35:34] We're on the discord on a daily basis. [35:36] Um, Matt's, I mean, fainting as he files through hundreds of [35:41] issues and, uh, um, pull requests. [35:44] Um, but we are really, really open. [35:46] I think the community that we're building is fantastic. [35:48] So I just, I would love to see more people as a part of that. [35:51] And I think a big thing that we are looking for now. [35:53] Is people who want to build something, you know, a bit unique, a bit novel, and don't [35:59] quite have the hooks and capabilities available for them from the system yet [36:02] to build that as a sandbox plugin and want to help us build those things. [36:06] 'cause I think the more hooks that we have, the more clear [36:09] it will be to other people. [36:11] Oh, okay, this is how I put a plugin together. [36:13] It is like a kind of app store in terms of the permission model, et cetera. [36:15] It does make a lot more sense. [36:17] I think that's really where we wanna see people contributing. [36:20] Love it. [36:20] Yeah, I mean, the, my, my thing, my tip would be you are in the ground floor here. [36:26] You have got the opportunity to shape the way that this, [36:29] um, the way that this forms. [36:31] But you have also got the ability to build the great, you know, [36:35] blockbuster plugin for EmDash because you are right there at the beginning. [36:40] So. [36:41] Do. [36:42] Come in, try it out. [36:43] Tell us what you want from the plugin system and what you want from EmDash and [36:49] we are wanting to help you do this 'cause we are not wanting to compete with you. [36:53] We want to, you know, we want to help you out. [36:56] That's excellent. [36:57] Well, I appreciate both of your time a lot. [36:59] Uh, folks, if you are here, we're gonna say goodbye to Matt and TK and Zack [37:04] and I might just chat a little bit. [37:06] Um, uh, and, uh, but again, thank you so much for your time and for joining us. [37:11] Um, and uh, we will be in touch for sure. [37:14] Well, thanks for having us on your show. [37:16] Thanks. [37:17] Thanks so much for the invitation. [37:18] Absolutely. [37:19] Have a good one. [37:20] Alright, bye. [37:23] Zack, [37:24] Matt Cromwell, [37:27] Cromwell, um, what's your take? [37:30] How was it? [37:31] Uh, very interesting. [37:32] Yeah. [37:32] Yeah. [37:33] Uh, it seems like it went from zero to a thousand miles per hour. [37:37] Yeah. [37:38] Uh, that was really cool that they, it was interesting to hear that they hadn't [37:42] necessarily planned for such a great response, but that they're also open to. [37:48] To taking, to, responding to it in kind and, and allocating more resources like [37:53] Yeah. [37:54] You know, one of the, there's, there have been a lot of criticisms about, um. [37:59] WordPress, this WordPress that isn't WordPress great. [38:01] And yeah, WordPress is great. [38:02] WordPress is the community. [38:04] And I think a lot about the community is how you respond to feedback. [38:08] Yep. [38:09] And I was heartened to hear that they have a open door policy where you just go on [38:15] Discord and talk about what you want and maybe actually get a PR merged in decor. [38:19] Like that is something that, uh, I haven't tried merging anything in 10 years because [38:25] Yeah. [38:25] Uh, it's a nightmare in WordPress. [38:27] So. [38:28] You know, I think a lot of the energy that goes into plugins in WordPress [38:33] might be going into core for EmDash, like [38:36] Mm. [38:36] Wouldn't that be interesting? [38:37] Yeah. [38:38] Really interesting. [38:39] I mean, obviously their success is a big signal, um, and does mean a lot of things. [38:46] It's so funny to that, having had a lot of conversations with new. [38:51] Plugin authors over the years, um, they often are like, oh, you know, [38:55] back in the day you launched a plugin on.org and you had success 'cause [38:59] people could find you right away and adopt your plugin really quickly. [39:02] And now it's not like that anymore. [39:04] Well, geez, it absolutely is like that on EmDash right now. [39:07] Like it's absolutely like a bit of a gold rush moment. [39:10] Um, uh, and that's what they were saying at the end there. [39:13] Matt in particular Matt Cain was saying like. [39:17] Where you could fill that spot. [39:19] You could be the yo SEO of EmDash if you just like get [39:22] the plugin out there right now. [39:24] Um, which is seems incredible potentially. [39:27] Of course. [39:28] Yeah. [39:28] And it comes down to execution. [39:30] And if you wanna know about execution, check out WP Product Dog. [39:33] We talk a lot about how to make a product successful, but like. [39:37] Anybody can, I've burned a billion tokens, I think, on an [39:40] EmDash plugin suite already. [39:42] Oh, wow. [39:42] Uh, that does, you know, everything from uh, gravity kit, stuff like [39:46] form displaying and like, uh, event management, um, membership [39:51] stuff just to see what's going on. [39:53] Um, our friend Jason, uh, with, um, [39:56] Jason Coleman. [39:57] Jason Coleman with Paid Membership Pro has a paid membership Pro plugin already. [40:01] Yep. [40:02] Like. [40:03] It's, it's not about the code. [40:04] 'cause the whole point of EmDash is anybody can make this code. [40:07] It's about executing and Yeah, and launching and marketing and getting [40:11] people to use it and pay for it. [40:12] Like that's a really exciting blue sky opportunity. [40:15] A [40:15] hundred percent. [40:16] How, how are you thinking about the execution on EmDash [40:20] I, I mean. [40:21] I, I think that WordPress is going to continue to be, um, the website [40:28] builder of choice for a lot of businesses and organizations. [40:32] Um, and I think EmDash right now looks like a really interesting alternative. [40:36] Um, I think their bullishness about their approach, um, to their ar, to their [40:43] stack, their architecture is interesting. [40:46] Um, and if they are right about that, then yeah, like things [40:50] have to change with WordPress. [40:51] But the thing is like. [40:53] WordPress is changing very rapidly in, in WordPress terms, like, uh, [40:59] our ability to adopt more AI forward. [41:02] Uh, things in WordPress core is, it's the fastest development [41:06] I've ever seen in WordPress. [41:07] Yeah. [41:08] But it's half of the pace of. [41:11] Everything that's happening in AI at the moment, like we're, we're going [41:14] faster than ever, but it's still slow. [41:16] Uh, basically. [41:18] Um, so I how EmDash goes from V 0.1 to version one is really gonna be [41:26] the real take and how WordPress, uh, isn't like what, what yo [41:31] said in his article isn't just. [41:34] AI compatible, but becomes AI native. [41:37] Um, if WordPress can become AI native, I don't even know. [41:41] Um, I'm not sure, but how WordPress does adopts AI and how MDE goes to V [41:46] one, those are the big tests for me. [41:48] Um, and I think that. [41:50] Once both of those things are fully realized, you're gonna see it's [41:54] really kind of like an apples and oranges situation, not a apples [41:58] and anvils situation, you know? [42:00] Uh, I don't know if that makes sense. [42:02] I use that, I use that analogy a lot. [42:04] They're, they're more similar. [42:05] Um, they're not more different. [42:07] Um. [42:08] Yeah, like one of the things that Matt was saying was that he, he wanted [42:12] to have a concept of security that is more like a mobile phone app. [42:17] And the permission structure of mobile phones, uh, are really limiting. [42:21] And there's a reason that people still use desktop computers for a lot of things. [42:25] Yeah. [42:25] True. [42:25] And there's so many things you can't do on a phone that are really frustrating. [42:29] Yeah. [42:29] Uh, that people use a desktop computer for and another. [42:32] Thing about that is when you use a application on your phone, it [42:36] progressively asks you, can I ask a access your specific contact list? [42:41] Now after you've onboarded, maybe now you need contact access. [42:45] Mm-hmm. [42:45] Maybe now you, so like. [42:47] I'm sure this will get worked out, but that one of the things that [42:49] came up to for me is like, well, he said where, uh, where you need [42:53] access, but not when you need access. [42:55] Mm-hmm. [42:55] And I think like that kind of flexibility is going to be [42:57] being needed to be worked out. [42:59] Yeah. [42:59] And that's interesting because you bring up what Matt Mullenweg has mentioned [43:03] several times that he wants WordPress to be the operating system of the web. [43:06] Right. [43:07] Um, you know, if they're the mobile apps of the web, but WordPress is [43:10] the operating system of the web. [43:12] That's really interesting. [43:13] Um, and, and. [43:15] I mean, I could see it working that way. [43:17] Um, again, if WordPress really adopts AI in a way that is meaningful, [43:23] um, and not just a attack on, so, [43:26] yeah, I mean, I, I do appreciate that Matt took 7.0 by the reins. [43:31] I wish he had. [43:33] Let, let them release 7.0. [43:35] Uh, well, anyway, my, my point, the ai, you, you [43:39] can say what you wanna say, Zack. [43:40] No. [43:40] There are, the AI being pushed into WordPress aggressively is the right move. [43:46] Yes. [43:46] Um, and I think there needs to be more unilateral decision making to make [43:50] sure that WordPress keeps up because [43:52] ironically Yes. [43:53] Yeah. [43:53] And that requires, uh, moving quickly, making decisions. [43:58] And maybe you get it wrong, but we could revert that later. [44:01] But like WordPress's, uh, structure, um, does not inherently [44:05] mean that it's not good for ai. [44:07] AI has trained on WordPress, uh, for years. [44:10] It's just that there's a lot of new code that needs to be better [44:12] documented and like the focus needs to be on making AI a better experience. [44:17] Making WordPress is a better experience for ai, and I think EmDash is [44:21] gonna kick WordPress in the pants. [44:23] Um, and get us really focused on how to improve. [44:26] And I'm excited about that. [44:28] I wanted to see, we had a lot of comments that we didn't pay attention to at all. [44:32] Um, I wanted to see if we might highlight a couple. [44:34] Um. [44:35] Here's one from a user that, um, B Green AZ is Cloudflare serious about [44:42] putting in the work resources to maintain EmDash in a viable open source platform? [44:46] What plans do you have to foster sustained community after initial buzz? [44:50] Subsides. [44:51] That's the question you asked at to end [44:52] and I was really glad that they, uh, are addressing. [44:55] I was also really glad to hear that Matthew Prince was the [44:58] person who it was top down. [45:00] Oh yeah. [45:00] A hundred percent. [45:01] That was, I love that they led with that. [45:03] We were both curious about [45:04] that. [45:04] I also wanted to dive into that a bit more and like. [45:07] He said, you know, do WordPress, uh, but better be the there next [45:11] be the next WordPress. [45:12] Yeah. [45:12] Uh, and that means a lot of different things. [45:13] I wonder if he said that exact, like, what the exact words were, [45:17] because I feel like it had to have been those exact words be the next, [45:19] how can you be the next WordPress? [45:20] Yeah. [45:21] And then, uh, as a developer, Matt kind of seemed to have parsed that [45:25] into like, well the data structures and stuff, um, and the community angles. [45:29] Uh, there are so many different things that make up WordPress, and that was [45:32] a lot of the feedback that we've been hearing after the release is like, [45:36] well, WordPress is this, WordPress is that they didn't think about this. [45:38] It seems like they're open to hearing and thinking and considering and [45:42] moving forward, like it doesn't seem like it's flash in the pan. [45:45] It seems like they're willing to put in the infrastructure. [45:48] What? [45:48] I mean, it was interesting that they. [45:50] Made it a big giant question mark. [45:52] In the beginning, they were like, well, maybe nobody cares. [45:54] Like maybe we this. [45:55] It's a [45:55] big EmDash. [45:56] Yeah. [45:57] Yeah. [45:58] But clearly it's a, [46:00] yeah. [46:01] Q2. [46:01] Who knows, huh? [46:02] Yeah. [46:03] Ian Meisner is our co-host on WP Project. [46:06] He's in the comments, he says, why will EmDash succeed at adding more to core [46:10] while building and maintaining a healthy ecosystem where WordPress may have not? [46:16] I don't know if that got addressed directly at all. [46:18] Um, yeah, but it's a good question overall. [46:21] Um, [46:21] I mean, I, I think the, the bureaucracy of maintaining open source [46:25] hasn't hit them yet, which is a, [46:27] yeah. [46:27] Which is, you know, and not just open source, but like AI generated prs, [46:32] uh, the, the management of the prs and like, it sounds like they're about [46:36] to scale up a lot and I think that. [46:38] The attitude that we are at 0.1 0.0, like they can, they can make choices right now [46:44] that they, that WordPress simply cannot. [46:46] Yeah, because it's the, it's the Microsoft windows of, uh, open source. [46:51] Where you have to maintain infinite, backward comparability. [46:54] Yeah, because that's the ethos. [46:55] You can't break anything, [46:56] which I love that ethos. [46:58] Personally, I still think it's a strength, but you're right, it's also a huge burden. [47:04] A strength to, yeah. [47:05] To what point, like the, [47:06] to what extent? [47:07] Yes. [47:08] I mean. [47:09] It depends. [47:10] Yeah. [47:10] But, uh, Katie is also a co-host and she's in the comments here. [47:15] She says, personally I'd rather wait until we know it will have a decent [47:19] number of users, which, uh, I think she's saying that in the context of [47:23] talking about, um, you know, whether she would make any of her products, [47:28] uh, compatible with EmDash or not. [47:31] Um, and that's a hundred percent a valid perspective. [47:34] Why should we be. [47:35] Jump in over there, um, if nobody's gonna be using it. [47:38] Um, but like they said, um, you might miss the gold rush, honestly. [47:43] Um. [47:44] Because, uh, you know, there might be 25 different document library pros that get [47:48] created between now and when you finally feel like there's a opportunity there. [47:52] One more from Ian. [47:53] Does a big host offer manage EmDash in the next two years? [47:57] They already said it. [47:57] They mentioned it. [47:58] They said that. [47:59] Well, I mean it, I don't know if it's a big host, but [48:01] Right. [48:01] Somebody already launched, uh, an EmDash, um. [48:04] Related, uh, hosting platform, uh, which I'm not surprised at all. [48:08] Um, but I, I did think that their comments about the lock in was really interesting. [48:13] Um, it, it definitely has a lot more potential for application when [48:18] you can host your whole setup, um, in lots of different environments. [48:22] I will say though, that like right now. [48:24] Getting set up with a node hosting environment is, is a lot more challenging [48:28] than, uh, a WordPress hosting environment. [48:31] Um, it's not for the faint of heart. [48:33] It's definitely very develop developer centric, which is why I [48:37] think a managed hosting environment for EmDash makes the most sense [48:40] because that's the only way you're gonna get it in front of the masses. [48:43] You're not gonna have folks, um, installing their own node [48:46] set up, um, uh, on a server. [48:49] Um, [48:50] and honestly, the. [48:53] I've been developing with EmDash locally and playing around with it [48:56] and developing without their plugin. [48:58] Sandbox has been fine. [49:00] Like I've, mm-hmm. [49:01] I've built out all the plugins that I talked about, like those were [49:03] just developed locally and they work perfectly with a local environment. [49:07] So the lack of a sandbox just means. [49:10] There's a little less security or something, so, [49:12] yeah. [49:13] Um, I, I think coming from WordPress, that's not a real problem. [49:17] Yeah. [49:17] Yeah, yeah. [49:18] Yeah. [49:19] I've, I played with it too. [49:20] I posted last week, uh, a walkthrough of me trying to export my personal website [49:25] from WordPress into EmDash locally. [49:27] And I, overall, I, I had already experienced Astro before, um, and I felt [49:32] like the CMS was just getting in the way. [49:34] Like I just was like, I, I would much rather. [49:37] I liked the importer. [49:38] The importer was helpful and useful. [49:39] It, it got everything set up locally and then I have everything there. [49:42] Uh, but then I just could go to town with Cursor and Astro and I [49:46] didn't need the, the CMS at all. [49:48] Um, but, um, uh, Nick actually commented, um. [49:53] Uh, you know this guy Nick, who I don't remember his name. [49:57] Um, our friend Nick, um, [49:59] Diego. [49:59] Uh, I maybe, no, I don't know. [50:01] Um, who, who, I give him a hard time every time I see him, um, [50:05] that I don't know who he is. [50:07] Um, and you're not helping me. [50:08] I'm sorry. [50:09] I'm plaguing. [50:09] Yeah. [50:10] Well anyway, Nick was like, but is that because it's just a solo website? [50:14] Um, and um, and you know, if you had a team of people working on the [50:18] content, you would need the CMS more, and I was like, maybe potentially. [50:22] Um, [50:23] well, I, I think that, that the release of EmDash with such a basic UI signals [50:29] to me that they don't intend the UI to be the primary way of interacting with it. [50:34] And they, they said, they said something to that extent. [50:37] Um. [50:38] Uh, to that effect on the call. [50:39] And I think they anticipated being AI first, and that means, you know, [50:44] instead of somebody logging into the CMS, maybe it is just AI talking with [50:48] your cloud or like your AI provider. [50:51] Mm-hmm. [50:52] Like the, the, the editor experience not great. [50:55] Uh, but the data structure really good. [50:57] So like, I, I do think that the, the focus for them on the, [51:01] um, engineering side of things. [51:03] Yeah. [51:04] Um. [51:04] Signals what their, uh, attitude is toward, like how that they [51:10] aren't as concerned about. [51:12] Yeah. [51:12] People logging in. [51:14] Maybe it's, uh, maybe it's just a headless, uh, experience to use WordPress [51:18] maybe. [51:19] Yeah. [51:19] It was interesting too that Scott Buscemi put in a PR to add Gutenberg into EmDash. [51:25] I thought that was really funny. [51:26] And it was rejected 'cause of the license? [51:28] Because of the license. [51:29] Exactly. [51:29] They're like, ah, you know, the GPL is often called a viral license. [51:34] Uh, as soon as it's in a project, it infects the rest of the whole project. [51:39] Um, and that's by design and by intention. [51:41] And that's why. [51:43] Matt Mullenweg likes it so much. [51:44] He is like, it is the licensing that forces open source, uh, [51:49] to continue to be open source. [51:51] Uh, but it is a perspective and it is an opinion of, of, uh, free code. [51:57] Um, and clearly they are a lot more comfortable with MIT approach instead, [52:02] uh, which is another perspective, another opinion, and it's valid. [52:06] So, [52:06] and I've gotta say the WordPress, uh, world. [52:09] Uh, like at Gravitate, we've just in the past few days, built CPS [52:13] to better interact with a block editor at a per block basis. [52:17] Uh, WordPress VIP has a plugin that allows, uh, structuring data [52:21] in JSON format, not in the stupid HTML format, but, you know, the [52:25] block editor saves things in that's easier for, uh, for AI to parse. [52:29] You can use like Python and jq. [52:31] Like it makes it a lot easier to interact with the data when [52:35] it's not in HTM l comments. [52:36] Mm-hmm. [52:37] And I think WordPress is moving faster than ever before, like you were saying. [52:40] Yeah. [52:40] To make it something that is usable by ai. [52:43] So I don't think WordPress is at a AI disadvantage personally. [52:46] I think it's at a speed disadvantage. [52:49] I think there is a structural. [52:51] Question. [52:52] Yeah. [52:52] But you can't, you can't just be in Claude or Cursor and say, post [52:57] this article for me to my website. [52:59] You can't do that right now. [53:00] Yeah. [53:00] But you can do that with Astro. [53:02] We absolutely do that. [53:03] I mean, you can. [53:03] Yeah, you can, but it's not in core the that way currently. [53:08] Um, and [53:08] but for EmDash is all about developer experience, right? [53:11] Yeah. [53:11] And for developers who are working with WordPress. [53:14] It's pretty darn straightforward to, to make it so that your MCB can, [53:17] but yeah, you also can't just say, uh, redesign my homepage to be this way. [53:23] Well, you can't. [53:23] It'll look like trash. [53:24] Yeah, you can. [53:26] Yeah. [53:26] You can't do it effectively. [53:29] You can try. [53:30] Um, but that's, that's what I mean though with Astro, um, you can do all those [53:35] things really easily, really quickly, and it's because the architecture is set up [53:39] in a way, the AI looks at it and is like, oh, I get exactly what's going on here. [53:43] And can make all the changes happen automatically, so [53:45] we're not headless WordPress with an astro. [53:48] I've seen folks say that that's what they're doing instead. [53:51] Um, it's basically using WordPress as the CMS and not the front end. [53:55] Um, and I think it makes more and more sense that way. [53:58] Um, but it makes like the power of WordPress, you know, very much minimized. [54:03] You know, is it really just a content database? [54:06] Is that really all it is? [54:07] Um, it, and then it's like, if you're gonna do that, there's way leaner [54:11] ways to have a content database than to use all of WordPress for that. [54:15] Right? [54:15] Um, but. [54:16] Yeah. [54:17] Well, and for, for Gravity Kit, we are centering everything back into WordPress. [54:22] Like fluent CRM is what we're using for our marketing Now, uh, you know, [54:26] obviously Gravity forms, um, a lot of. [54:29] A lot of our decisions have been to put everything into one database. [54:33] Nick, here's Nick, our friend Nick, who? [54:35] I, I don't know this guy. [54:36] I don't know him at all. [54:37] I'm sorry, [54:37] Nick. [54:37] Yeah, Nick is the one who was telling me, uh, because I'm solo. [54:42] Make me lonely, Nick. [54:43] That's why I don't know you. [54:44] Anyway, Nick, Nick Laughlin, good guy. [54:46] Thanks for being here, Nick. [54:48] Um, any other last comments? [54:50] Best advice? [54:50] What's your best advice, man? [54:51] Oh [54:52] man. [54:52] My best advice is to pay freaking attention, folks, [54:55] because it's all going so fast. [54:57] Um, and there's so many things happening all the time, and it's not just noise. [55:04] It's so many really. [55:06] Hyper interesting things. [55:08] I mean, there's a ton of noise too, which is difficult and, and challenging. [55:12] But the way things are changing nowadays in WordPress, outside [55:15] of WordPress, it's all relevant. [55:17] Um, and if you're not paying attention, you really do start [55:21] to miss out really quickly. [55:23] Um, 'cause it, it also, all this, all these changes bring [55:26] about new opportunity as well. [55:28] Um, and being an early adopter, it has its benefits and strengths. [55:32] Uh, the only way you can do that is if you're. [55:35] Paying attention and are agile enough to be able to adjust on the fly. [55:40] So, um, not that I'm saying that I'm the best at any of those things, but I, [55:44] I, I'm, I, it makes me tired how much I'm having to pay attention and how [55:49] much I have to feel like I'm adjusting all the time to the newest stuff [55:53] that's, uh, available to us nowadays. [55:55] Yeah, I think, uh, you know, Yost, uh, with the WordPress hyphen, [56:00] SEO slug on the plugin directory. [56:03] That I don't think that was in the directory for like six years or something. [56:08] It was, it yos didn't launch immediately. [56:11] Uh, [56:11] yeah. [56:12] That I think there is time for us to, to wait and see. [56:16] Uh, that's not what I'm suggesting anybody do. [56:18] But I also like, it's, I'm, I feel such panic when things like this launch. [56:23] Yeah. [56:23] And then I realized like, okay, it's not first mover, it's best mover, apple's. [56:27] Well, didn't create the first smartphone. [56:28] It created the best smartphone. [56:30] Like, and then changed the industry after that. [56:31] So like, [56:32] yeah. [56:32] But they're way behind on AI right now, and I'm not sure that they're [56:36] gonna get up with the game, honestly. [56:38] Yeah. [56:38] And it might have been the best move They've, they've not had to [56:41] spend a hundred billion dollars on [56:43] True. [56:43] They could just license from Google and have all the benefits [56:46] without any of the costs. [56:48] So [56:49] potentially [56:50] so first mover advantage, maybe, maybe not. [56:52] Um, but I do think my best advice is it comes down to fundamentals and like [56:56] mm-hmm. [56:57] If you believe you have what it takes to ship and deliver and really [57:02] iterate and focus and market and have the connections and, you know. [57:07] They, they were talking to hosting providers and big players [57:09] in the email marketing it. [57:11] It might be about connections right now and trying to make, trying [57:14] to, you know, affect, influence. [57:17] If you have the fundamentals, do it. [57:19] Give it a go. [57:20] But if not, you're okay to wait. [57:21] That's my, that's my feeling. [57:23] Good stuff. [57:24] Good stuff. [57:25] Well, folks, we were actually on a break, um, because of Press Conf. [57:29] Um, we squeeze this one in, as you could tell. [57:31] Um, for really good reasons. [57:34] We're on a break next week as well. [57:35] Um, and then we're coming back with some more great content [57:38] with more product owners. [57:40] Um, I'm looking forward to next season for sure. [57:42] Hey, and if you're watching, do us a favor and hit like, and subscribe. [57:45] Uh, it helps the show. [57:47] And also thanks to Freemius for being our global, uh. [57:51] Sponsor for WP Product Talk. [57:53] Uh, frees helps you ship the, um, [57:56] we don't have the notes in front of [57:58] us. [57:58] Well free. [57:58] I, I'll tell you, [57:59] they're, they're a merchant of record. [58:00] They're a merchant of record. [58:01] They do all the stuff the plugin owners need you to do. [58:03] Uh, sure. [58:03] Including tax compliance for global tax compliance, uh, distributing software. [58:09] They do all this stuff that's hard, uh, for about selling [58:11] products, and they make it easy. [58:13] So, [58:13] and they even work with SaaS applications, not only WordPress folks. [58:17] So if you're thinking about EmDash stuff. [58:19] MIUs is still in the cards honestly, [58:20] and maybe Freemius should talk to EmDash and see if they could be, you know, [58:24] opportunity. [58:24] I think [58:25] opportunity. [58:25] Nice. [58:25] Not knock over. [58:28] Alright folks, thanks so much. [58:29] Thanks everybody. [58:30] We'll see you next.  📄 **Full text:** ![[Full Document Contents/Articles/EmDash New Plugin Opportunity or Threat|EmDash: New Plugin Opportunity or Threat?, YouTube]] ## Highlights - seen, uh, online an announcement, uh, that ironically happened on April 1st. Uh, but it was true, uh, that Cloudflare has launched a new product called EmDash and um, they launched it saying that they are the spiritual successor of WordPress. And so we were like. I wonder if you all would like to talk about that with some WordPress folks. Uh, and they were kind enough to say yes. So Matt TK, Matt Kane, thank you so much for being here. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwwe6b8nyv89jwph6cv39fp)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - You have an entirely new generation of people kind of entering the internet and building things on the internet, especially with the advent of agents, and that was obviously a huge part of EmDash. I'm sure we can talk about, um. I don't think WordPress is really the tool of choice for those, those kinds of users. And often it's things like Astro that are promoted as, oh, build a site with Astro. But then where is that kind of like word pressy element that enables you to pull ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwwe6bssr2wxt4rdjs7y0rr)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - put those in the core, but, but still leave things in plugins that are not going to be needed by every single person. Yeah. So one question that brings up is, uh, governance and how EmDash will be managed moving forward. Uh, can you talk about how you see that happening? I think Matt could probably talk a bit to it because, um, yeah, he's, he's done a lot more in open source previously, but I would also just point to we one weekend where, yeah, you saw Scrambled talked briefly about, about the future of EmDash from that regard. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwwe6e73zv0k33f7vtcst8g)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - So. This is what, you know, this is where we see ourselves fitting within this ecosystem is providing, providing the tools for, for everybody else who wants to build a business and make lots of money and build some amazing sites on it. And can you talk, I, I know, I know we're at time, but, uh, could I, I'm sure this question has come up a lot. Uh, can you speak to Cloudflare's commitment to EmDash? Because WordPress has been around for 20 years and I know that people are concerned about if this is a fad or something in the internally, a Cloudflare. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwwe6h19wq3qnn0r4v9p7yt)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - Yep. Like. It's, it's not about the code. 'cause the whole point of EmDash is anybody can make this code. It's about executing and Yeah, and launching and marketing and getting people to use it and pay for it. Like that's a really exciting blue sky opportunity. A hundred percent. How, how are you thinking about the execution on EmDash I, I mean. I, I think that WordPress is going to continue to be, um, the website builder of choice for a lot of businesses and organizations. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwwe6mtbwvqgvn2teqtw9np)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - Um, and I think EmDash right now looks like a really interesting alternative. Um, I think their bullishness about their approach, um, to their ar, to their stack, their architecture is interesting. Um, and if they are right about that, then yeah, like things have to change with WordPress. But the thing is like. WordPress is changing very rapidly in, in WordPress terms, like, uh, our ability to adopt more AI forward. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwwe6rs7w1ch4dtwg3dymqm)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - Um, I wanted to see if we might highlight a couple. Um. Here's one from a user that, um, B Green AZ is Cloudflare serious about putting in the work resources to maintain EmDash in a viable open source platform? What plans do you have to foster sustained community after initial buzz? Subsides. That's the question you asked at to end and I was really glad that they, uh, are addressing. I was also really glad to hear that Matthew Prince was the person who it was top down. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwwe6xex4gcnymy6b52c4g3)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - a lot of the feedback that we've been hearing after the release is like, well, WordPress is this, WordPress is that they didn't think about this. It seems like they're open to hearing and thinking and considering and moving forward, like it doesn't seem like it's flash in the pan. It seems like they're willing to put in the infrastructure. What? I mean, it was interesting that they. Made it a big giant question mark. In the beginning, they were like, well, maybe nobody cares. Like maybe we this. It's a big EmDash. Yeah. Yeah. But clearly it's a, ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwwe7bhycw2nshh1fmgkbek)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - yeah. Q2. Who knows, huh? Yeah. Ian Meisner is our co-host on WP Project. He's in the comments, he says, why will EmDash succeed at adding more to core while building and maintaining a healthy ecosystem where WordPress may have not? I don't know if that got addressed directly at all. Um, yeah, but it's a good question overall. Um, I mean, I, I think the, the bureaucracy of maintaining open source hasn't hit them yet, which is a, yeah. Which is, you know, and not just open source, but like AI generated prs, ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwwe7kxc43xntbb245ahbkz)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - Um, and that's a hundred percent a valid perspective. Why should we be. Jump in over there, um, if nobody's gonna be using it. Um, but like they said, um, you might miss the gold rush, honestly. Um. Because, uh, you know, there might be 25 different document library pros that get created between now and when you finally feel like there's a opportunity there. One more from Ian. Does a big host offer manage EmDash in the next two years? They already said it. They mentioned it. They said that. Well, I mean it, I don't know if it's a big host, but ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwwe7s2xrsajfk6199zrh0c)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted ## New Highlights added 2026-05-13 at 10:03 AM - seen, uh, online an announcement, uh, that ironically happened on April 1st. Uh, but it was true, uh, that Cloudflare has launched a new product called EmDash and um, they launched it saying that they are the spiritual successor of WordPress. And so we were like. I wonder if you all would like to talk about that with some WordPress folks. Uh, and they were kind enough to say yes. So Matt TK, Matt Kane, thank you so much for being here. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krgrn0f066w9gewdqv7nykzb)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - You have an entirely new generation of people kind of entering the internet and building things on the internet, especially with the advent of agents, and that was obviously a huge part of EmDash. I'm sure we can talk about, um. I don't think WordPress is really the tool of choice for those, those kinds of users. And often it's things like Astro that are promoted as, oh, build a site with Astro. But then where is that kind of like word pressy element that enables you to pull ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krgrn0fvnr011w0ttx0rtkcr)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - put those in the core, but, but still leave things in plugins that are not going to be needed by every single person. Yeah. So one question that brings up is, uh, governance and how EmDash will be managed moving forward. Uh, can you talk about how you see that happening? I think Matt could probably talk a bit to it because, um, yeah, he's, he's done a lot more in open source previously, but I would also just point to we one weekend where, yeah, you saw Scrambled talked briefly about, about the future of EmDash from that regard. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krgrn0jhgxjz7c7jz2qs5xa9)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - So. This is what, you know, this is where we see ourselves fitting within this ecosystem is providing, providing the tools for, for everybody else who wants to build a business and make lots of money and build some amazing sites on it. And can you talk, I, I know, I know we're at time, but, uh, could I, I'm sure this question has come up a lot. Uh, can you speak to Cloudflare's commitment to EmDash? Because WordPress has been around for 20 years and I know that people are concerned about if this is a fad or something in the internally, a Cloudflare. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krgrn0npmw3y1cjgfdv5tccg)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - Yep. Like. It's, it's not about the code. 'cause the whole point of EmDash is anybody can make this code. It's about executing and Yeah, and launching and marketing and getting people to use it and pay for it. Like that's a really exciting blue sky opportunity. A hundred percent. How, how are you thinking about the execution on EmDash I, I mean. I, I think that WordPress is going to continue to be, um, the website builder of choice for a lot of businesses and organizations. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krgrn0spm7mxbb5kb93yn9ra)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - Um, and I think EmDash right now looks like a really interesting alternative. Um, I think their bullishness about their approach, um, to their ar, to their stack, their architecture is interesting. Um, and if they are right about that, then yeah, like things have to change with WordPress. But the thing is like. WordPress is changing very rapidly in, in WordPress terms, like, uh, our ability to adopt more AI forward. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krgrn0xvpfb4zswckfke2998)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - Um, I wanted to see if we might highlight a couple. Um. Here's one from a user that, um, B Green AZ is Cloudflare serious about putting in the work resources to maintain EmDash in a viable open source platform? What plans do you have to foster sustained community after initial buzz? Subsides. That's the question you asked at to end and I was really glad that they, uh, are addressing. I was also really glad to hear that Matthew Prince was the person who it was top down. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krgrn12pge4s17dapwxrs348)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - a lot of the feedback that we've been hearing after the release is like, well, WordPress is this, WordPress is that they didn't think about this. It seems like they're open to hearing and thinking and considering and moving forward, like it doesn't seem like it's flash in the pan. It seems like they're willing to put in the infrastructure. What? I mean, it was interesting that they. Made it a big giant question mark. In the beginning, they were like, well, maybe nobody cares. Like maybe we this. It's a big EmDash. Yeah. Yeah. But clearly it's a, ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krgrn1h0mmkrvggjee4c0b9m)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - yeah. Q2. Who knows, huh? Yeah. Ian Meisner is our co-host on WP Project. He's in the comments, he says, why will EmDash succeed at adding more to core while building and maintaining a healthy ecosystem where WordPress may have not? I don't know if that got addressed directly at all. Um, yeah, but it's a good question overall. Um, I mean, I, I think the, the bureaucracy of maintaining open source hasn't hit them yet, which is a, yeah. Which is, you know, and not just open source, but like AI generated prs, ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krgrn1sh8qqv905djy5kyhkr)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - Um, and that's a hundred percent a valid perspective. Why should we be. Jump in over there, um, if nobody's gonna be using it. Um, but like they said, um, you might miss the gold rush, honestly. Um. Because, uh, you know, there might be 25 different document library pros that get created between now and when you finally feel like there's a opportunity there. One more from Ian. Does a big host offer manage EmDash in the next two years? They already said it. They mentioned it. They said that. Well, I mean it, I don't know if it's a big host, but ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krgrn1z0ngde8n8vgky9nr9h)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted