Episode 25 Jill Binder - CourtneyR.dev's 2nd Brain

Episode 25: Jill Binder ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/SZNThB0salY/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [Episode 25: Jill Binder](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZNThB0salY) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: #public-speaking #diversity #community-building #wordpress #representation #speaker-training > author: Community and Code > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZNThB0salY > date created: 2025-01-16 12:00 > > > [!info] Generated analysis — not the author's words. Sections below are machine-written > > from the captured source. Only text inside `> [!quote]` blocks is verbatim from the author. > > Do not quote or attribute any other line to the named author. > > > [!note] Re-upload > > The channel re-uploaded this episode on 2026-09-22 as https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4dk4LGE6Bc (92–95% identical transcript). This original doc stays canonical. > > > # 🏷️ Title: Episode 25: Jill Binder >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Create speaker self-diagnostic tool for community events — assessment framework #public-speaking - [H2] Develop sincere apology script for diversity work — conflict resolution template #diversity - [H3] Implement proactive speaker outreach strategy — replace blind selection #representation ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [[#📝 Summary]] - [[#📖 Main Content]] - [[#🗒️ Notes]] - [[#📚 References]] - [[#🗣️ Paraphrase]] - [[#📰 Newsletter]] - [[#✅ Action Items]] - [[#🧪 Hypotheses]] - [[#📊 Methodology]] - [[#❓ Questions]] - [[#🔮 Future Research]] - [[#💡 Implications]] - [[#🧠 Learning Styles Assessment]] - [[#📊 Accessibility Assessment]] - [[#🌍 DEIB Assessment]] - [[#✅ Logical Validity]] - [[#🛡️ DARVO Analysis]] - [[#🎯 Conclusion]] ### 🔗 References - [WordPress Diversity Speaker Training](https://speaktechconfidently.com) - [Speaker Blueprint Tool](https://speaktechconfidently.com/blueprint) ## 📝 Summary - Jill Binder scaled a local Vancouver speaker training workshop to reach 600 people across 50 countries over 5 years through the WordPress diversity speaker training initiative - The program addressed two core barriers: "What would I even talk about?" and "I'm not an expert in anything" - Results showed 3x increase in applications from women and achieved 50% representation at subsequent WordCamps - Post-2020, diversity work became more challenging due to heightened tensions and cultural sensitivity across global communities - Blind speaker selection often reinforces existing inequalities despite appearing egalitarian ## 📖 Main Content Jill Binder founded the WordPress diversity speaker training initiative after her Vancouver WordCamp received only 7 applications from women out of 56 total submissions, resulting in just 4 women speakers out of 28 total. This local problem sparked a global solution that reached 50 countries. The core workshop addresses impostor syndrome and helps participants develop story-based talks. Research shows well-represented groups apply for opportunities when they know "a little bit" about something, while underrepresented groups only apply when they feel they know "everything." The workshop reframes this by emphasizing that everyone is an expert in their own experience. Cultural complexities emerged when scaling globally. Different regions have varying definitions of diversity - in some countries, men of color are well-represented locally but become underrepresented on global stages, creating disorienting experiences. Post-2020, heightened cultural awareness created both more support and more tension in diversity work. The transition from blind speaker selection to proactive outreach proved more effective. While blind selection appears fair, it often disadvantages non-native English speakers and maintains existing power structures. Proactive invitation and support yield better representation outcomes. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/SZNThB0salY?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and background - Key idea: Jill built WordPress diversity training from local problem to global program - Evidence: "600 people across 50 countries" #### ⏱️ [05:23](https://youtu.be/SZNThB0salY?t=323) — [H2] WordCamp Vancouver speaker diversity problem - Key idea: Severe underrepresentation despite community efforts - Evidence: "56 applications and only seven were from women... four out of 28 speakers" #### ⏱️ [12:45](https://youtu.be/SZNThB0salY?t=765) — [H3] Cultural complexity in global diversity work - Key idea: Diversity definitions vary dramatically by region and culture - Evidence: "Men of color are over-represented in Philippines and Africa regions" #### ⏱️ [18:30](https://youtu.be/SZNThB0salY?t=1110) — [H2] Post-2020 challenges in diversity work - Key idea: Heightened awareness created both support and tension - Evidence: "People were very understandably on high alert... trauma state" #### ⏱️ [25:15](https://youtu.be/SZNThB0salY?t=1515) — [H1] Workshop development and core barriers - Key idea: Two primary obstacles prevent speaking applications - Evidence: "What would I even talk about? And I'm not an expert in anything" #### ⏱️ [32:40](https://youtu.be/SZNThB0salY?t=1960) — [H2] Workshop results and scaling request - Key idea: Dramatic improvement led to global expansion request - Evidence: "Three times the number of applications... fully 50% representation" #### ⏱️ [38:20](https://youtu.be/SZNThB0salY?t=2300) — [H3] Blind speaker selection limitations - Key idea: Appears fair but reinforces existing inequalities - Evidence: "People of other countries might not write English well and get unselected" #### ⏱️ [45:10](https://youtu.be/SZNThB0salY?t=2710) — [H2] Importance of diverse representation - Key idea: Different perspectives create better conferences and innovations - Evidence: "Audiobooks for veterans... now podcasts are a thing" #### ⏱️ [52:30](https://youtu.be/SZNThB0salY?t=3150) — [H1] Transition to public speaking coaching - Key idea: Individual coaching provides career transformation - Evidence: "Senior developer and then team lead... first and only woman developer" #### ⏱️ [58:45](https://youtu.be/SZNThB0salY?t=3525) — [H3] Performance poetry background - Key idea: Slam poetry provided foundational speaking skills - Evidence: "Tangentially in the slam scene for almost 10 years" #### ⏱️ [63:20](https://youtu.be/SZNThB0salY?t=3800) — [H2] Overcoming common speaking barriers - Key idea: Most barriers addressed through topic selection and practice - Evidence: "Last three things you learned at work... mistakes you've made" #### ⏱️ [68:15](https://youtu.be/SZNThB0salY?t=4095) — [H3] Breathing techniques for confidence - Key idea: Proper breathing transforms stage presence and voice quality - Evidence: "Breathe through our belly... fuller voice" ## 📚 References - [Speak Tech Confidently](https://speaktechconfidently.com) - [Speaker Blueprint Tool](https://speaktechconfidently.com/blueprint) - [WordPress Community Events](https://make.wordpress.org/community/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - A local Vancouver WordCamp's poor speaker diversity sparked a global initiative that reached 600 people across 50 countries - The core workshop addresses impostor syndrome by helping participants realize they're already experts in their own experiences - Cultural sensitivity and global perspectives create complex challenges when scaling diversity programs internationally ## 📰 Newsletter **From Local Problem to Global Solution: Scaling Speaker Diversity Programs** This week's spotlight features Jill Binder's journey from solving a local WordCamp speaker diversity issue to building a global training program. Her work demonstrates how community-driven solutions can scale when they address fundamental barriers. **Key Takeaways:** - Proactive speaker outreach beats blind selection for diversity outcomes - Story-based talks help overcome impostor syndrome - everyone's an expert in their experience - Cultural context matters enormously when scaling programs globally **Community Resources:** Check out WordPress Community Events for local meetup support and Make WordPress for contribution opportunities. Resources: [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [Developer Docs](https://developer.wordpress.org/), [WP-CLI](https://wp-cli.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### Community - Maintainers: develop speaker mentorship programs with structured feedback loops - Contributors: create story-based talk templates for technical presentations - Sponsors: fund diversity initiatives with transparent impact measurement - Ecosystem: coordinate cross-community speaker sharing programs #### WordPress - Community: implement proactive outreach strategies for WordCamp speaker selection - Training: develop cultural competency modules for global community organizers - Marketing: create speaker diversity success story documentation - Documentation: build comprehensive public speaking resource hub ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Proactive speaker invitation yields higher diversity than passive application processes - Story-based technical talks have higher audience retention than pure how-to presentations - Cultural context training reduces conflict in global diversity programs - Breathing technique training measurably improves speaker confidence scores ### 📊 Methodology - A/B test proactive outreach versus open applications for conference diversity outcomes - Survey audience retention comparing story-based versus instructional technical talks - Measure conflict resolution success rates with cultural competency training ### ❓ Questions - How do we maintain program quality while scaling diversity initiatives globally? - What metrics best capture the long-term career impact of speaker training programs? - How can we address systemic barriers beyond individual skill-building? ### 🔮 Future Research - Longitudinal studies of career advancement post-speaker training - Cross-cultural communication frameworks for global community programs - Technology solutions for reducing language barriers in speaker selection ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Speaker selection processes need proactive outreach components - Policy: Blind selection policies may require cultural context considerations - Education: Public speaking training should incorporate breathing and confidence techniques - Community: Global programs need cultural competency frameworks ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 10th grade #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Speaker statistics and demographic breakdowns - Improve: Workshop process diagrams, cultural context infographics #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full podcast episode with speaker examples - Improve: Breathing exercise audio guides, story structure templates #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear definitions of diversity and representation terms - Improve: Speaking technique glossary, cultural communication guides #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Workshop exercises and practice frameworks - Improve: Interactive speaker assessment tools, breathing practice routines ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure and content organization - Improve: Add transcript formatting for speaker examples #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript available for video content - Improve: Timestamped sections for navigation ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Global perspective with specific regional examples - Improve: More detailed cultural context for different countries #### Inclusive language - Present: Careful framing of identity and representation - Improve: Additional language around intersectionality #### Representation - Present: Diverse speaker examples and career outcomes - Improve: More specific demographic impact data ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Workshop results demonstrate scalable methodology - Inductive strength: Multiple case studies support representation benefits - Causal reasoning: Clear connection between barriers and solutions #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Collaborative and solution-focused with appropriate cultural sensitivity ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - No concerning patterns detected - discussion acknowledges systemic issues while focusing on constructive solutions ## 🎯 Conclusion Jill Binder's work demonstrates that effective diversity programs require both individual skill-building and systemic change. Her transition from local problem-solving to global program leadership shows how community-driven solutions can scale when they address fundamental barriers like impostor syndrome and topic selection. The key insight is that representation isn't just about fairness - it creates better outcomes through diverse perspectives and innovations. However, scaling requires cultural competency and sensitivity to local contexts while maintaining core principles of inclusion and support. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### [H1] Story-based talks overcome impostor syndrome barriers > [!quote] Episode 25: Jill Binder via Community and Code. Published 2024. > "We are always an expert in our own experience. Nobody can argue with our life experience." Fundamental reframe for technical speaking that addresses confidence barriers. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/SZNThB0salY?t=3525) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_speaking_expertise ### [H2] Proactive outreach beats blind selection for diversity > [!quote] Episode 25: Jill Binder via Community and Code > "Have you tried asking? I can ask people." Simple but effective strategy that transforms speaker demographics. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/SZNThB0salY?t=2300) #xref ID:rw_speaker_selection ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue - [F1] Create cultural competency framework for global community programs — diversity toolkit #fleeting #community - [F2] Research breathing technique impact on speaker confidence — coaching metrics #fleeting #public-speaking - [F3] Document proactive speaker outreach templates — organizer resources #fleeting #wordpress --- ## Full Transcript [00:20] Welcome back to Community and Code. I'm [00:22] your host, Chris Reynolds. My guest [00:25] today has an origin story that starts [00:26] with I wasn't trying to do this and ends [00:29] with 600 people across 50 countries. [00:31] Jill Binder is a public speaking coach [00:33] for Tech Folks based in Vancouver, BC. [00:36] And before that, she spent 5 years as [00:38] the founder and lead of the WordPress [00:40] diversity speaker training initiative, a [00:43] program she built inside the WordPress [00:45] community to get more underrepresented [00:47] voices onto conference stages. We talk [00:50] about how the diversity training [00:51] initiative got its start and how it [00:53] became a global program. And we talk [00:56] about speaking and speaker selection in [00:57] general, like why blind speaker [00:59] selection doesn't necessarily solve the [01:01] problem you think it does and often [01:03] times introduces new issues. For anyone [01:05] who's ever thought I don't have anything [01:07] worth saying, Jill would disagree with [01:09] you. Let's get into it. Welcome to [01:12] Community and Code, the podcast where we [01:14] talk to the human beings behind the [01:16] commits. I am here today with Jill [01:19] Binder. Uh Jill has been active in the [01:22] open source and particularly the [01:24] WordPress community for a very long [01:26] time. uh doing all sorts of stuff, but [01:28] most recently uh diversity stuff, but [01:32] also sort of uh just helping people [01:35] speak better at things and doing and and [01:39] representing underrepresented groups. [01:40] And I am thrilled to have you on. Uh [01:44] welcome Jill. Tell us about yourself. [01:46] >> Hi Chris, thanks so much for that intro [01:49] and thanks so much for having me on the [01:50] show. This is so fun. Um for five years [01:54] I was the founder and lead of the hashwp [01:58] diversity speaker training group in the [02:00] WordPress community space and I did that [02:02] till um 2023 early 2024 something like [02:07] that. Um and after taking a break I'm [02:10] now doing public speaking and confidence [02:12] coaching for all voices in tech. Um, [02:16] public speaking is just such a [02:18] transformative thing, but I know so much [02:21] about diversity and I still incorporate [02:22] it in all the work that I do now and I'm [02:24] happy to chat about any of those topics. [02:28] Um, and just in case we do talk a lot [02:31] about the diversity part, I just want to [02:33] say a little thing that I like to say [02:35] before having those conversations, um, [02:38] which is I'm a white woman in Canada. I [02:41] can't possibly know everything that [02:43] you're all going through. I also tend to [02:46] be socially awkward and um terms change, [02:50] but also I trip over words and sometimes [02:53] accidentally say things that um are not [02:56] great. And I want people I want [02:58] everybody to know that I try very very [03:00] very hard to say the right things. I [03:04] don't always get it right. um my heart [03:06] is in the right place and I uh I want to [03:10] do right and if any if I say anything [03:12] out there that bothers anybody and if [03:14] you have some bandwidth to spend on me [03:17] please reach out and chat with me about [03:19] it. [03:21] >> I I appreciate that a lot. Um I we met [03:25] uh in person recently and at Word Camp [03:27] Canada um and I went to your talk. I [03:30] I've I've known who you are for a lot of [03:33] uh for a long time. a lot of that being [03:36] the WP diversity work that you were [03:38] doing, but I think that like your name [03:39] was floating around even before that um [03:42] just in in the in the round. So, I was [03:44] excited to to to go to your talk and [03:46] then you gave a very similar sort of [03:48] introduction and that I just like [03:49] framing [03:51] everything from a foundation like just [03:54] like from the get-go like I just I just [03:56] feel like that's just I don't know it [03:58] helps me contextualize the space that I [04:02] occupy in the world. um and the space [04:05] that I hope to occupy in the world, but [04:07] also like I'm a white man living in [04:09] America and I have a whole lot of things [04:11] that go along with that baggage, right? [04:13] Um and [04:16] Right. [04:17] Um [04:17] >> I love that word baggage. That's [04:19] awesome. [04:20] >> Yeah. Yeah. There's there's there's much [04:22] to be had. Um, like there's a lot of [04:24] things that go along with that. And [04:26] there's a lot of things that go along [04:27] with just not having been in the place [04:30] of to experience many things that people [04:33] who don't look uh like me or occupy the [04:36] same physical spaces that I do um or [04:39] aren't don't have access to those [04:40] physical spaces. Um, and it's it's [04:43] really grounding to sort of like, you [04:45] know, start from the get-go with with [04:46] that thing. So, like, yeah, I I glad to [04:50] have you on, glad to have you talking [04:51] about that stuff. Uh I was um why don't [04:54] we start off I guess with um with the [04:57] talk that you gave at at at uh Word Camp [04:59] Canada since that kind of what is what [05:01] brought us together. Um for anyone who [05:03] was not there which is probably a lot of [05:05] people were not at Word Camp Canada. [05:07] What uh what what was your talk about [05:10] and and what brought you to that [05:12] specific topic? [05:14] >> Oo yeah. Um well so the title my fancy [05:18] long title that I workshopped for a very [05:20] long time um was from Canada to the [05:23] world 10 lessons from working with 50 [05:26] countries. Um and I I came to that topic [05:30] because um the Word Camp Canada team [05:33] came to me asking if I would give a [05:36] diversity related talk and I haven't [05:39] officially been in the diversity space [05:41] for a bit. I needed to take a break and [05:43] I thought, well, what would be fun for [05:46] current Jill? What would I love to talk [05:48] about? So, I did a little um slight [05:52] angle on it and instead of talking [05:54] directly about diversity, I talked about [05:58] what it was like to take a little [06:00] workshop that a few of us created in [06:02] Vancouver for public speaking for our [06:05] underrepresented voices and what happens [06:08] when um I was asked to scale that to all [06:12] over the world. Um at the time precoid [06:15] there were 800 cities with meetups and I [06:18] was asked to try to reach all of them [06:20] with that that work. In the end I was [06:24] able to reach 50 countries over 5 years [06:26] which is an incredible feat and was a [06:28] lot of work to do. Um and so the talk [06:32] was the the little things that I learned [06:34] you know the little um and a lot of it [06:37] was tangentially diversity related [06:39] because that was my lens the whole time. [06:41] the whole time I was doing these [06:44] workshops for underrepresented groups. [06:46] So there's a little bit of cultural [06:48] stuff, a little bit of like um working [06:52] with women in Latin America and um lang [06:55] language issues speaking with um you [06:59] know India and Japan. And the parts that [07:02] people really resonated with in this [07:04] talk were um [07:08] talking about what diversity means in [07:09] places like the Philippines and um the [07:12] black culture in Africa and then how the [07:16] black culture in Africa is different [07:17] from the black culture in America [07:19] >> because in Africa let's say um and in [07:23] the Philippines you know the the the men [07:26] of of color are over represent the the [07:30] well what I like to say the well [07:31] represented folks of the regions and um [07:35] and then they are asked to come speak on [07:37] the global stages because they're [07:39] underrepresented because you know in [07:41] tech we typically have [07:44] uh I like to say straight cis young [07:47] white men um not not necessarily always [07:49] sis not necessarily always straight but [07:52] um [07:54] >> uh and not necessarily young um but just [07:56] a kind of as a as a global like just to [07:59] give a snapshot If you ask ChatGBT what [08:02] a tech what a tech worker looks like, [08:05] you would probably get [08:06] >> Yeah, probably get that. [08:08] >> Um, and so then they're asked to speak [08:10] on these global stages and it feels very [08:12] disorienting to come from a culture [08:14] where one is well represented and then [08:16] walk into a space where they're under [08:18] reppresented and it's it's dizzying and [08:20] it's disorienting. Um, so talking about [08:22] that, whereas in America, black men of [08:26] America are very underrepresented and [08:28] very um, and this was the most personal [08:31] part of my whole talk and the one that [08:33] people resonated with the most and [08:34] appreciated the most. Um, it was [08:37] basically [08:39] uh they live in a culture of and again [08:42] I'm a white woman in America uh in in in [08:45] Canada trying to talk about black men in [08:47] America but I have from my experiences [08:50] and also I've checked this with people [08:52] to make sure it was correct. Um there's [08:54] a culture of fear um because they don't [08:59] know who to trust. They don't know who [09:01] they can open up to. my workshops were a [09:03] very vulnerable space. Um, you know, [09:06] digging into why we're afraid of public [09:08] speaking and starting to use our voices [09:11] is a is a big deal and they didn't know [09:13] if they could trust me. Um, and all [09:15] kinds of issues came up out of that and [09:17] I had to apologize a bunch of times and [09:19] I gave a whole script for how to [09:21] apologize sincerely, [09:24] >> um, etc. So, it was those kinds of [09:27] things that uh were unexpected and [09:30] constant. It was it there was always [09:33] things coming up which is part of why I [09:35] developed that script with the help of [09:37] some fellow diversity experts um because [09:41] things were coming up and people were [09:43] leaving upset um especially in 2020 when [09:47] diversity became a bigger issue when the [09:50] George Floyd incident happened and it [09:51] became top of everybody's minds um [09:54] people were um uh more sensitive at the [09:58] time absolutely understandably [10:00] Um, but then tanking it out on me, the [10:04] white woman in Canada who's trying to do [10:05] well in the world. Um, and so making [10:09] sure people knew that I'm coming from a [10:11] good place made a really big difference [10:13] in people's experiences cuz I care more [10:16] about [10:17] them than anybody being angry with me. [10:21] Um but that's yeah so that's that's a [10:24] little bit about that speech and a few [10:26] of the highlights and the the little bit [10:28] about that. Yeah, I as I as I was [10:32] listening to you like I remember you [10:34] know in the before times before COVID um [10:39] uh well once upon a time there was a [10:42] really good traveling conference called [10:44] Alterconf [10:46] uh and Alterconf was specifically [10:49] for by and for predominantly like [10:52] underrepresented groups in tech. show. [10:55] Um, and I went to one in Portland. Um, [11:00] and so there's like a lot of female [11:02] speakers, a lot of uh trans and [11:05] non-binary speakers, and all sorts of [11:07] things. And basically the stories were [11:09] the common theme was this is what it's [11:11] like to exist as myself in a space that [11:14] is dominated by [11:16] >> cis straight white men, basically. Um, [11:19] and [11:19] >> yeah, [11:20] >> and it was heavy. Uh, and it was it was [11:23] amazing. It was really really eye [11:24] opening um for me as a cis white man um [11:29] in tech. Uh and it made me really want [11:34] to be part of whatever a solution or an [11:40] answer or a response to that [11:45] pain that discomfort uh was. Um, and uh [11:51] I think I can't remember who who it [11:53] might have been. Uh, it might have been [11:55] Andrew Norcross who at at [11:58] Loopconf [12:00] one year gave a talk that I went to in [12:04] which he said, "Use your powers of [12:06] privilege for good." Um, [12:10] >> and I was like, "Yeah, yeah, I I can do [12:13] that. I can't I can't be the like I can [12:17] I can try I can try to be more visible. [12:20] I can try to be repres like you know [12:22] like be the representation like use my [12:25] voice as much as I can in the spaces [12:27] that I have access to to raise awareness [12:32] or whatever like I that is a thing that [12:34] I can do. Um, and then so, so what I was [12:37] thinking about as you as you're talking [12:38] is I gave a talk at Open West, uh, I [12:42] guess it was had to have been like 2019 [12:44] or something or 2018. Um, in in response [12:47] to all of these ideas, things floating [12:49] in my brain called being a better ally. [12:52] And it was basically what it was. What [12:55] was ironic at the time was um one of the [12:58] things I was talk I mean like I was also [13:02] very self-aware that I'm a male speaker [13:04] talking about allyship at a tech [13:06] conference with an audience of primarily [13:09] male uh attendees and speakers and I [13:12] also noticed and I told the organizers I [13:14] was going to do this when I did it that [13:16] the speaker selection also tended very [13:20] heavily white male and I'm like look I'm [13:23] going to call you out on this because [13:26] because it's obvious and it's it's [13:28] topical to my thing. It's not because I [13:30] think you're doing a bad job. It's [13:32] because it's it's a this is just this is [13:34] an evidence that this is an issue, [13:35] right? And and one of the things like [13:38] their process for selecting speakers was [13:40] it was a blind speaker selection [13:42] process. Um, which to me also just under [13:46] underlines why blind speaker selection [13:49] is not always the best way of doing like [13:52] it it feels egalitarian [13:54] >> but it the result you get is is just [13:57] going to you know reinforce those [13:58] things. Um [14:00] >> I don't know if I would give that talk [14:03] uh like this year and I and it I didn't [14:06] even think about like how things have [14:09] changed over time but in in hearing you [14:12] H we're working on that through that [14:15] time. What what things have you observed [14:18] um change in sort of like I don't know [14:22] feeling sentiment uh vulnerability over [14:25] like over that period of time like sort [14:27] of postcoid. [14:29] >> Oh yeah big big question. Um good [14:32] question. [14:33] >> Took a took a lot of time to get there. [14:34] I had to ramp up [14:36] >> and I if we can come back later to the [14:39] um the thing about why blind selection [14:42] like people don't know why blind [14:43] selection doesn't work. I would love to [14:44] chat more about that but let me let me [14:46] answer this question. [14:48] >> Um so [14:50] um [14:52] there were two sides to um what changed [14:58] from what I could observe. one which was [15:01] amazing was more people cared in the [15:05] before times I was alone a lot trying to [15:09] do this work I had I had a bit of help [15:12] here and there um and then when that [15:15] happened people suddenly cared and I got [15:19] a lot more volunteers for my initiative [15:22] which was amazing um and a lot more [15:25] people caring about it and a lot more [15:27] people wanting to contribute opinion [15:29] ions and ideas which was also amazing. [15:33] Um [15:35] um although I was a bit burned out and [15:38] had a hard time wrangling the ideas and [15:40] contributions and [15:43] me now who has rested up and is well [15:46] resourced I know how I would handle that [15:48] now but in the past it was it was a lot [15:51] um and then from the side of the people [15:53] who are underrepresented [15:55] um [15:57] I you know I'm partially [15:59] underrepresented myself so I'm partially [16:01] speaking myself you I'm female. I'm [16:04] neurode divergent. I have some physical [16:07] uh not quite disabilities, but not quite [16:10] full abilities either. I'm currently [16:12] walking with walking sticks to be able [16:14] to walk. Um [16:16] for example, so I can't do stairs and [16:18] things like that. Um [16:21] uh [16:23] but um from the people at the time, um [16:27] people were very understandably on high [16:30] alert all the time. Everybody was in a [16:33] little bit of a trauma state. [16:35] >> Um and so um [16:40] the hardest time for me [16:44] um was that time. Um I had people being [16:48] very upset um with me over things that [16:53] they may or may not have been upset [16:54] about other times or maybe they maybe it [16:57] would always bother them but maybe they [16:58] wouldn't have spoken up as much. And so [17:00] I had long conversations of people being [17:04] upset with me. And um I did my best to [17:08] listen, hold space when needed, [17:11] apologize, and I learned a lot about [17:13] apologizing, which is something I talked [17:15] about in the speech. Um and mostly it [17:19] was letting people feel heard. Um, one [17:23] of my diversity [17:25] uh, peers pointed out that people were [17:28] just upset at the system and at that [17:30] time I was representing the system and I [17:32] was an outlet to uh, um, talk to and I'm [17:36] very glad that I was. Um, I just my [17:40] nervous system was also shot and it was [17:42] hard at the time. Um but uh after I [17:48] started so that's when I developed the [17:49] script and then I didn't have people um [17:53] have those long angry upset [17:55] conversations with me anymore after [17:57] that. If anybody had anything to say [17:59] they came to me gently with corrections [18:02] which didn't happen much um after I [18:05] started saying that script. Um and again [18:09] it's not about me and my experience. It [18:11] was really the important thing to me was [18:15] helping people with their like I wanted [18:19] I I cared more about other people and [18:21] their experiences. Um it's it's not [18:24] about me having a hard time. It's it's [18:27] like I don't want people to come to a [18:29] workshop that is [18:32] pre in the pre-times was very [18:34] transformative for people and would [18:36] absolutely change their lives. I don't [18:38] want them to come to an amazing [18:40] experience and have a terrible time. But [18:42] because everybody was on high alert, [18:44] there were there were more terrible [18:46] times. [18:47] Um [18:49] uh one of the things that I didn't No. [18:53] Yeah. So um uh there were little things [18:56] that happened as well like um I [18:58] mentioned in my speech about the color [19:00] of the skin on the posters in India when [19:03] we had when we were holding workshops [19:04] specifically for India and it wasn't [19:06] just India there were other regions as [19:08] well but I just gave one example story [19:11] um and that story was basically we had [19:14] the people of the region pick the the [19:17] poster and pick the person and it was a [19:19] light-skinned person and everybody in [19:23] India seemed fine with it, but people in [19:25] other parts of the world were very [19:28] triggered and very upset by it being a [19:30] light-skinned person. [19:32] >> Yeah. [19:34] >> Yeah. Well, there's whole I mean there's [19:36] there's I don't know how many hundreds [19:38] of years of history to explain why in [19:42] India that is the one that gets picked [19:45] versus the versus an option with with [19:47] darker skin. Like there there's there's [19:50] >> it there's [19:51] >> I mean we have a cultural framework in [19:54] the United States that is based on a [19:56] very particular history and like where [19:58] our biases and cultural like things that [20:00] we identify with or think is normal or [20:02] whatever comes from like they have a [20:04] very similar but different like I mean [20:06] it's yes there's there's a whole a whole [20:11] host of things that could be said about [20:13] about that sort of stuff. Um for sure. [20:16] Um, [20:16] >> yeah. [20:17] >> What, um, [20:19] what brought you to, uh, like into this [20:24] sort of like diversity or even just [20:28] speaking type of work? Like what what [20:30] was the thing that brought you into that [20:31] to begin with? [20:33] >> Yes. Good. I love the story. [20:36] So, I was never a diversity person. It [20:40] it just sort of happened. I wrote an [20:42] article a couple years into it called um [20:44] how I became an accidental activist um [20:48] in Vancouver. So I was uh one of the [20:51] main Word Camp co-organizers from 2013 [20:54] to 2015. And for people who don't know [20:57] what Word Camp is um it's it's I'm [21:00] assuming a lot of people listening to [21:02] your show know, but just in case it is [21:04] our basically our one to two day [21:07] conference. Um most most cities around [21:10] the world will have a 1 to two day [21:12] conference all on done by and for the [21:16] community and it's all WordPress topics. [21:18] Any anything tangentially related to [21:21] WordPress can be talked about at these [21:24] events. Um and we had [21:28] uh [21:30] close to 56 I think 56 applications and [21:33] only seven were from women. M [21:37] >> um and in the end uh we only had four [21:42] out of 28 speakers who were women at our [21:44] event. Um and when I say women, I mean [21:47] people who identify as women somewhere [21:49] all of the time. Uh and we were not [21:52] happy about that and the audience was [21:54] not happy about that. They talked to us [21:57] um privately about it and they also [22:00] called us out publicly. They wrote blog [22:02] posts about it. Uh absolutely [22:04] understandably. We did our best. We we [22:07] accepted six and then two dropped out [22:08] for family emergencies and then in the [22:11] end it was the small 14%. [22:15] Um and so I was chatting with people [22:19] about this issue. I went to Word Camp US [22:22] to ask other meetup organizers, how do [22:25] you get more women and under other [22:27] underrepresented? And I also, while I'm [22:29] here, I'll define when I say [22:31] underrepresented and diversity, I mean [22:33] gender, um, cast, class, physical [22:37] ability, sexuality, [22:39] uh, race, ethnicity, [22:42] uh, etc. Age, that's something that when [22:45] I forget to say age, I always have [22:46] people coming up to me asking about the [22:48] age thing. Absolutely. age also. Um, and [22:52] so I I we there was this meetup brunch [22:55] and I asked all of them, how do you get [22:56] more people asking, you know, applying [22:59] to speak? And they're like, you got [23:01] seven, we got zero. [23:05] So then I learned this was a bigger [23:07] issue all around. And I I started doing [23:11] more effort. I started asking people [23:13] directly instead of just waiting for [23:15] people to show up. and I got the same [23:17] two answers over and over, which is what [23:19] would I even talk about? And I'm not an [23:22] expert in anything. And I learned so [23:26] those were the two big things. I chatted [23:28] with some people and somebody gave me an [23:29] idea um to tackle the topic question [23:33] with doing a brainstorming session. And [23:36] from there, a group of women and I [23:39] created our 5-hour workshop, which is [23:42] the foundation for what I've been doing [23:44] ever since. And in this workshop, we [23:47] first cover imposttor syndrome, the [23:49] myths of who it is the person speaking [23:52] up on stage. Especially um uh the well- [23:57] reppresented people in a community when [24:00] they know a little bit about something [24:01] will be like, "Yeah, I can apply for [24:03] that job or I can talk on that topic." [24:05] And the rest of us when we only know a [24:07] little bit, we're like, "Well, I don't [24:09] know enough." But we actually know the [24:10] same amount. Um so helping people [24:12] reframe that. um helping people do more [24:15] story based talks. Um when we started [24:19] developing this workshop, make WordPress [24:22] community got a wind that we were doing [24:23] this and they asked, can we get people [24:26] to do more story- based workshops? [24:28] People will walk away from a day of [24:31] conference talks after a whole bunch of [24:34] how-to talks won't remember the details, [24:36] but stories are engaging. People [24:40] remember them. And so I've been really [24:42] honing in over the years how to help [24:45] people create great stories. Um and so [24:48] then make WordPress said great you've [24:51] had these amazing results. Other cities [24:53] started running their own versions of it [24:56] and they asked could I lead a team to [25:00] make it not just women all diversity and [25:03] all around the world. And that is that [25:05] is how that began. It started with our [25:08] own local little problem in Vancouver. [25:11] We developed a solution that worked and [25:15] uh and oh yeah and we we started running [25:18] that workshop for ourselves and in the [25:19] next year we had three times the number [25:21] of applications from people who identify [25:24] as women and it was a developer edition. [25:26] So that's an even bigger deal. Uh and [25:28] then we had fully 50% um representation [25:32] in our next few word camps as well. So [25:36] that's how that all started. [25:39] >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, that overlaps with the [25:42] with the thing that we we uh pinned uh [25:45] earlier with with uh speaker selection [25:47] and and the the blind speaker selection. [25:50] Um I also I was involved in in Word Camp [25:52] Salt Lake City for for many many many [25:54] years. Um I was uh co-organizer for two [25:58] years and then I was lead organizer for [26:00] two years. So I basically was I was [26:02] running it in to a greater lesser extent [26:05] for essentially four years. Um and we [26:09] had I mean the exact same problem. We [26:11] have like the applications come in and [26:13] for a long time it was like well we're [26:14] just going to run with what we get, [26:15] right? Like that's that's what you do. [26:17] Um, when I was not satisfied with that [26:22] uh answer, I [26:25] >> I think it was actually and I think it [26:27] was probably like a similar conversation [26:28] because I think that might have been [26:29] about the same time as uh there was a [26:32] word camp San Francisco. It was before [26:34] Word Camp US was a thing. There was a [26:35] Word Camp San Francisco where there was [26:36] an open well it was an invite community [26:38] summit and I happened to be invited [26:40] because I was part of the docs team at [26:41] the time. Um, so I got to go to the [26:43] community summit which meant that I got [26:45] to have conversations with other people [26:46] that are word camp organizers which [26:48] wasn't, you know, ostensibly the reason [26:49] I was there. Um, and I asked that [26:53] question and the answer that I got was, [26:55] well, have you tried asking? [26:59] >> Like, wow, I can ask people. [27:03] which then so the next year I went to [27:05] when I when we were organizing was like [27:07] okay I'm gonna like pick a bunch of [27:08] people that I think would would uh bring [27:11] value to the people that come to our [27:13] event uh that are maybe not local but [27:16] people that I know that I have at least [27:18] some like six degrees of Kevin Bacon [27:22] connection to um [27:24] >> yeah yeah [27:25] >> that and just just ask just ask would [27:27] you like to come to Salt Lake City to [27:29] give a presentation I don't really care [27:30] what you want to talk about we can talk [27:32] about whatever you want just I'd love to [27:34] have you here. And yeah, it that weirdly [27:38] when you ask people if they if they want [27:40] to speak at your event, a lot of them [27:42] say yes. [27:43] >> Um [27:44] >> that's awesome. [27:45] >> And we were able Yeah. And we were able [27:47] to to course correct that. I think I [27:50] think the next year when I the first [27:51] year when I did that, we had I think [27:53] about 50%. I mean, if you're if you're [27:55] considering a gender binary as the as [27:58] the rubric by which you're organizing [28:00] who's on what side of the line, we had [28:02] about 50%. Um and and and that continued [28:07] and that was um yeah um and that and it [28:11] goes to the point like and because I had [28:12] that experience that was why I was [28:15] >> uh not super uh enthusiastic about the [28:19] blind speaker selection of this one [28:21] event that I was speaking at because [28:23] like I felt like I felt like I knew what [28:25] a solution could be. Um, and like I get [28:28] it, like I understand like [28:31] >> it seems fair, but I think that you can [28:33] do that and also do the other thing too [28:36] >> and then get better results. Yeah. [28:39] >> I think I want to speak a little bit [28:41] about why it matters that there's [28:45] representation and also a little bit [28:46] more about the blind selection. [28:48] >> Yeah. Um so um you know when I first [28:51] started in this work there was a lot of [28:54] talk out there of um it should be based [28:57] on talent. It should be a good mix of [29:00] topics. Um it shouldn't be who's [29:03] speaking the the representation [29:05] shouldn't matter. And I argue after [29:08] learning a lot about this over the [29:10] years, um, different perspectives, [29:13] people with different history, people [29:15] with unique, um, viewpoints because of [29:19] having different representation and the [29:21] representation what I mentioned before [29:23] in all the different forms. Um, it makes [29:26] for a more interesting conference. Um, [29:30] it it does so many things. It makes for [29:32] a more interesting conference. It helps [29:34] the audience feel included and [29:37] represented because um if people are as [29:40] lucky to have the kind of audiences that [29:42] we had, we had a big mix in our audience [29:44] but not on stage before I started this [29:46] work. Um it boosts ticket sales because [29:50] a lot of people will look for is there a [29:52] mix of speakers. Um and since [29:57] 2020ish [29:59] um maybe even a bit before but [30:01] especially after people will boycott [30:04] people will say this is all young young [30:07] middle-aged white men [30:11] I will not go. Uh and so it's it's [30:13] important even just just to uh um [30:23] uh to be a better event and for people [30:26] to to agree that it's a better event. I [30:29] guess that's one way of saying it. [30:31] >> Yeah. [30:31] >> Um and then blind selection. What [30:34] happens with that? There's a few things [30:36] that happens. One is if the people [30:39] haven't been on the speaker circuit, [30:41] they may not write as good of a an [30:44] application, a speaker application and [30:46] the application is the title and the [30:49] description and uh in a blind selection [30:51] that's the only thing that people read [30:53] and people of other countries and um [30:58] cultures, ethnicities, all the different [31:00] things might not write English well and [31:03] get unselected. Now in my work I say I [31:08] tell people um you know make sure you [31:12] know it's it's sad that people don't get [31:14] selected based on how it is written but [31:16] that is the reality get somebody to help [31:19] you write it properly and now there's [31:21] all kinds of tools to help people with [31:23] their grammar [31:24] >> um uh and um blind selection does remove [31:30] the names so you're so they are less [31:32] likely to pick the popular people. But [31:35] the fact is we can often recognize, oh, [31:38] this is a talk from this person. I'd [31:40] want this person there. Um, and [31:45] um and and also, you know, [31:49] even if all the talks are truly [31:53] anonymous, you can't tell who the [31:54] popular people are and um all written at [31:58] the same quality. You still just want a [32:02] mix of voice. It's for all the reasons I [32:04] said before, it's a better conference [32:06] when there's a mix of voices, [32:08] >> right? I remember [32:10] back there, you know, I haven't been on [32:13] Twitter in probably well since Elon [32:15] bought it, but um once upon a time I was [32:18] and um I think it was Anneil Dash who at [32:22] some point decided that because he had [32:25] gotten so big on Twitter and he has so [32:27] many followers that he was going to [32:29] intentionally stop uh like reposting [32:33] um things by male users and just repost [32:38] things by you know female or non-binary [32:41] like things that because so much of the [32:46] discourse and dialogue was already from [32:49] like the male perspective even if the [32:51] content was exactly the same. he was [32:53] going to retweet the thing that was [32:54] posted by somebody who is female. Um [32:57] because just to elevate those voices and [33:00] because and and because like the yeah [33:03] the topic title could be exactly the [33:05] same thing but the perspective that [33:07] comes behind it. The lived experience [33:10] that goes into the ideas is going to be [33:14] by default different. Um [33:16] >> yeah. [33:17] >> Yeah. Um and [33:18] >> and something to add on that. Um it is [33:22] to our benefit to hear more lived [33:25] experiences. Yes. Um, you know, there's [33:26] all kinds of things that we're blind to [33:29] for our from our own um, lived [33:32] experience that are things that our our [33:35] users experience and we need to know [33:38] that they're experiencing that as well [33:40] as um, so hearing the different [33:43] perspectives opens our eyes to more [33:45] things as well as um, people's different [33:49] experiences often bring cool innovations [33:53] to things. Um, for example, [33:58] back in the wartime, a long long time [34:00] ago, um, they started creating, uh, what [34:04] was it? Um, like I think I think it was [34:07] creating audiobooks for their veterans [34:09] who, um, couldn't read. And now podcasts [34:14] are a thing. You know, it was created [34:15] originally for a certain segment, which [34:18] became something that changed, you know, [34:22] made things better for everyone. Um, and [34:25] so, uh, you know, there's all kinds of [34:27] innovations that can happen when we when [34:29] we're problem solving for somebody in [34:31] particular and then it can become [34:33] something cool in the mainstream for [34:34] everybody. [34:36] >> Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I mean, I think, [34:38] you know, when I was in high school, we [34:40] had books on tape and whatever, but that [34:41] was like [34:43] >> that was it. Books on tape. Yes. [34:45] >> Yeah. [34:46] >> Yeah. But like books on tape like to [34:48] start you think about like well [34:50] obviously you if you can't read a book [34:52] because you are vision impaired then [34:54] that is the the thing that but like yeah [34:55] I [34:56] >> I you process information differently by [34:59] listening to a book being read to you [35:00] than than you do by reading it with your [35:02] eyeballs too. And like, you know, [35:04] there's so many reasons why you would [35:06] choose to do the one thing over the [35:07] other thing. And and like you can read a [35:09] lot more books if you listen to them [35:10] when you're doing like making dinner. [35:12] Like yeah. Um [35:15] >> all sorts of sort of accidental uh [35:17] serendipitous uh effects of of things [35:20] that that started out being for like ex [35:23] sort of like for accessibility sort of [35:26] purposes. Yeah. Yeah. [35:27] >> So talk about um now you do sort of [35:31] coaching for public speaking. Um tell [35:35] obviously that came out of your work [35:36] from the WP diversity thing. Um but talk [35:39] about how that sort of evolved and and [35:42] what like what made you want to sort of [35:44] focus in that. [35:47] >> Yeah. Uh so when I came back from my um [35:50] self-funded recovery sbatical, I was [35:54] looking at what can I do and um I still [35:58] had some corporate clients on the side. [36:00] Um I I starting in 2020 um I had a [36:05] couple of companies hire me to just do [36:06] one-on-one coaching with their um [36:09] employees just to help them be better on [36:11] stage. And uh I still had those clients [36:14] and I when I came back to work I really [36:18] loved it a lot and it still makes such a [36:23] big different like you know it it [36:27] the diversity work is so meaningful but [36:30] I've found so much meaning in helping [36:34] all voices cuz it's basically if [36:37] somebody has a good experience on say a [36:39] podcast or on stage. It helps them level [36:43] up to their next self. People get so [36:46] much confidence. People get career um uh [36:52] it helps their careers. I'll talk more [36:54] about that in a second. Um it's [36:58] uh some people step into leadership [37:00] roles after speaking. my my um my whole [37:05] stepping into being the the founder and [37:08] lead of the WP diversity training [37:12] initiative uh was right after I did a [37:15] public speaking talk on how it how it [37:17] was going with our workshop in [37:19] Vancouver. Um I that was at Word Camp [37:22] Seattle. Um and uh yeah, and so there's [37:26] I've I had I've had so many stories. Um [37:29] but there's one in particular that I [37:32] witnessed that means so much to me. Um [37:34] one of the people who went through a [37:35] workshop in Vancouver um got spotted by [37:40] a local uh agency. They sought her out. [37:45] They said we need her specifically after [37:47] seeing their talk her talk and um got [37:51] her on board. See, she soon became their [37:54] senior developer and then their team [37:56] lead and she was their first and only [37:58] woman developer for the for a bunch of [38:00] years and then she brought some other [38:01] women developers on board as well. Um, [38:04] and I've also in my own experience, um, [38:06] and seeing seeing it happen for so many [38:09] people, people get job offers, people [38:11] people who are entrepreneurs get gigs. [38:14] Um, you know, before doing this public [38:16] speaking coaching, I was and before the [38:19] diversity initiative, I was a web [38:21] developer and every time I got on stage, [38:23] no matter how good or bad I was that [38:25] day, I inevitably got people asking to [38:27] hire me to work on to create their [38:29] websites for them. [38:31] um it's just this visibility thing that [38:33] makes a huge difference for people. And [38:36] so the combination of the fact that I [38:39] ran this workshop literally 100 times [38:43] over 5 years, reached 600 people in 50 [38:46] countries. Um but also I have done a lot [38:50] of public speaking myself before that. [38:52] So I'm just very good at it. Um, I [38:55] started off as a performance poet uh for [39:00] I was kind of tangentially in the slam [39:02] scene for almost 10 years and that's [39:04] where I really learned how to do public [39:07] speaking. Um, and then in the work world [39:10] I started giving a lot of talks when I [39:12] was a other kinds of coaches and then [39:14] when I was doing web development and [39:16] then I started speaking at meetups and [39:18] word camps when I got into the WordPress [39:20] space. Um, and I just uh I'm a very [39:26] anxietyfilled person and I've learned [39:29] how to calm my own nerves and I'm able [39:31] to help people calm their nerves. And I [39:35] have kind of a small presence in regular [39:37] life, but on stage I have a big stage [39:39] presence and I'm able to teach people [39:41] how to do that as well, no matter how [39:44] small and introverted they are in [39:46] regular life. Um, and it's not about [39:48] being something that we're not. It's [39:50] about using our own and if we're having [39:52] a if I'm very quiet and I have a quiet [39:54] energy lean into that be quiet which is [39:58] I think what I did at my keynote I'm not [40:01] even sure this I'm usually feeling quiet [40:04] so I lean into that and it gives me this [40:06] presence so because of all of that that [40:09] that's now what I'm doing and and um I'm [40:13] I don't know I love it so much [40:17] I'm doing one-on-one coaching with [40:19] people when they have a talk coming up. [40:20] And I'm also aiming to do some cohorts [40:24] where, you know, I gave these 5-hour [40:26] workshops where it was just a crash [40:27] course quickly. And I would love to do [40:29] like one module at a time, one month at [40:32] a time and really dig into it together [40:34] and get people from I don't know, I [40:37] could never give a talk to giving a [40:39] standout talk that they're so proud of [40:41] and everybody really loves. So that's [40:44] the current thing. [40:46] Yeah, that's a good current thing to [40:48] have. Um, I've I've had a couple people [40:51] on before who are either in Devril or [40:54] they're in uh tech spaces who are come [40:56] from similar backgrounds where um, you [41:00] know, they [41:03] had to sort of force themselves to [41:06] do public speaking and they did so [41:09] because they thought it would just help [41:11] them in general or because it would help [41:13] them professionally or whatever. um and [41:16] and now they do it a lot and they really [41:17] enjoy it. Um what are what are the sorts [41:20] of things that you uh would recommend or [41:24] suggest to folks that are that are on [41:27] the cusp but need a little bit of a [41:29] nudge to to to do to go to a meetup and [41:32] and do like talk or you know give a [41:35] presentation for their employer or like [41:38] or [41:39] >> get up on stage like whatever. What's [41:41] what's the sort of like key thing that [41:42] you think that uh that you would suggest [41:44] to to get people over the little over [41:46] the hump? [41:48] >> That's a good question and it depends a [41:50] little bit on where that hump is. You [41:53] know, I would start by asking is it [41:56] feeling like they don't know enough and [41:58] don't belong on stage? They don't know [41:59] what their topic is. They're too [42:01] nervous. They don't know how to write a [42:03] title and and description. Um I actually [42:06] have a little self diagnostic tool. Am I [42:09] allowed to mention a little thing on my [42:11] website? Um, [42:13] speaktuckconfidently.com/blooprint. [42:16] I lay out the 10 steps for what it takes [42:19] to get on stage and have people self [42:21] diagnose um what's their confidence [42:24] level with each stage. So, some of the [42:26] stages that I just mentioned. Um, so for [42:29] the two most common ones, well, the [42:32] three most common ones that um I hear a [42:34] lot is what would I talk about? Um, and [42:37] so there's uh little exercises we can [42:40] do, but as a quick example, um, the best [42:43] talks are what we're already doing every [42:46] day in our tech life. So a little quick [42:50] prompt could be, um, think about the [42:53] last three things that you learned at [42:55] work. Um, and then [42:58] some, one of those could be a great [42:59] topic or or a great one is like mistakes [43:02] you've made. Everybody has mistakes [43:03] they've made in tech and that that's a [43:06] really good story-based talk. Yeah. [43:08] >> Like here's the mistakes I made so that [43:10] I, you know, learn from me so you don't [43:12] make the same mistakes. [43:13] >> Um if it is feeling like they don't [43:16] belong on stage. Little thing I [43:19] mentioned before. Um [43:22] we tend to self- select ourselves out [43:25] feeling like I only know a little bit [43:27] but actually we know the same amount as [43:29] the people who are getting up on stage. [43:32] Um, but I like to say because I'm I love [43:35] helping people. Well, so there's a bunch [43:37] of different kinds of talks, but I do [43:39] lean towards the story-based talk, [43:41] although I let people choose. There's [43:44] how-to talks, story-based case studies, [43:47] panels, workshops, etc. Um, but the [43:51] great thing about story-based talks is [43:53] we are always an expert in our own [43:55] experience. Nobody can argue with our [43:58] life experience. [44:00] Um, so there's that's one way to get [44:03] over that hurdle. And then for nerves, [44:06] the two two big tips are practice, [44:09] practice, practice, practice before if [44:12] if one can before getting up on a big [44:15] stage, get up on little related stages [44:18] or even just talking to friends and [44:20] family. Just just practice. Um, and [44:24] breathing. Breathing is this overlooked [44:27] thing. We breathe. But do we? Uh when we [44:30] get nervous, our breath [44:33] >> and energy gets high and we we we're [44:37] breathing from here and here and our [44:39] voice goes up and our body gets tense. [44:42] And if we bring that slow the breathing [44:45] down, breathe through our belly, take a [44:49] few deep breaths. I recommend breathing [44:52] in the day weeks and days leading up to [44:55] it because some of us are in a [44:56] heightened state all that time, but then [44:59] also on the day of [45:02] do deep breathing before and then [45:04] there's often a wait period before we're [45:06] called up on stage. Great time to do [45:09] more breathing. And [45:11] when we get on stage before talking, [45:16] I recommend doing deep breathing. Um, [45:19] there's a difference between somebody [45:20] who walks up onto stage and then starts [45:22] talking, "Hi, my name is Jill. I'm here [45:24] to talk about blah blah." versus, "Get [45:26] up on stage, take take a moment, take a [45:30] breath, [45:34] and then on one of the outreaths, start [45:37] talking, which also gives us a fuller [45:39] voice. [45:41] Hi everyone, my name is Jill. I'm so [45:44] happy to be here with you today. [45:47] preferably a better start line than [45:48] that. I like I like to coach people to [45:50] have an interesting hook before starting [45:52] to tell people who they are. Have like a [45:54] really interesting question that is the [45:56] through line of the whole talk. [45:58] Um but yeah, those are some little tips [46:01] to get people started on some of those [46:04] things. [46:05] >> Breathing is so good. Um I'm [46:08] >> so good. [46:10] >> I I so I've I've I do aerial uh arts [46:14] stuff. I've been going to classes for [46:16] about a year and and pull and [46:19] >> and I'm our instructors are constantly [46:21] saying and remember to breathe because [46:24] for the for very similar but slightly [46:26] different reasons because but like yeah [46:29] you you doing a thing that's really hard [46:31] and you're pulling yourself up and it [46:33] and then you forget [46:35] you need actually need to breathe like [46:36] and breathing makes it better. [46:39] >> Breathing makes it more successful. [46:41] Breathing uh helps you not tense up. [46:43] Breathing helps you not get injuries. Uh [46:46] yeah. Yeah. Breathing is breathing is [46:48] really good. [46:49] >> Breathing is good. [46:51] >> Yeah. And that actually reminds me of [46:52] another thing which is um you know [46:54] sometimes we start speeding up in a talk [46:57] and so deciding ahead of time some spots [47:00] that we're going to stop and take a [47:01] breath. Especially between sections is a [47:04] really good time. Or sometimes we have [47:07] this moment where we blank. So, I have [47:10] this little story. When I was in grade [47:12] school, um I was doing pretty well at [47:15] the public speaking, but there was this [47:17] one time that I blanked, [47:22] did not know what my next line was, ran [47:24] out of the room crying, and then refused [47:27] to do public speaking until I was an [47:30] adult and really wanted to do my poetry [47:32] on stage until I had a really good [47:34] reason to push past it. But I just lived [47:37] in fear for so long. And now with with [47:40] what I know now, when we blank, [47:44] stop, take a few breaths, oxygenate the [47:48] brain, maybe even another thing I talk [47:51] to people about is um feeling in their [47:53] heart, maybe even putting a a hand on [47:56] their heart. and that it our heart is [47:59] like this second brain that will remind [48:02] us what we are there to talk about and [48:07] overcome situations like like tough [48:09] questions in the Q&A time and um so the [48:12] breathing and and the heart thing will [48:15] help people get over the humps of stuff [48:17] in the middle of the things that happen [48:20] when we're on stage. [48:22] >> Yeah. Well, I will have to think about [48:25] that. [48:27] remember that. Um, well, thank you so [48:29] much, uh, Joe for coming on. Um, I love [48:33] talking about this stuff. Uh, I love to [48:35] have you on. Um, I was so happy that we [48:37] got to meet in person, uh, a few months [48:39] ago. Uh, for anyone who's maybe looking [48:42] for you or what you do on the internet, [48:44] where can they find you? [48:47] >> Oo, great question. Um I am Jillbinder [48:51] all one word on LinkedIn Mastadon still [48:55] on X. Um uh Facebook but except on [49:00] Facebook it's Jillbinder consulting. Um [49:04] those are the business social medias and [49:06] my website is speaktechconfidently.com [49:11] and that little um self diagnostic tool [49:15] that I mentioned to figure out where [49:17] somebody is stuck so they know where to [49:19] even start or also just to know like how [49:22] does one do a talk or how does one do [49:24] their next talk and make it better. um [49:26] the 10 steps to that. It's that was [49:28] speakconfently.com/bloopprint. [49:31] And thanks for letting me mention those [49:33] things. Free some free stuff. [49:35] >> For sure. For sure. Absolutely. Well, [49:37] thanks again for coming on. Thank you [49:39] everybody who might be watching or [49:41] listening to this in the future. And uh [49:43] we'll see you on the internet. [49:44] >> Thank you, Chris. This was a pleasure.  📄 **Full text:** ![[Full Document Contents/Articles/Episode 25 Jill Binder.md|Episode 25: Jill Binder by YouTube]] ## Highlights - WordPress community space and I did that till um 2023 early 2024 something like that. Um and after taking a break I'm now doing public speaking and confidence coaching for all voices in tech. Um, public speaking is just such a transformative thing, but I know so much about diversity and I still incorporate it in all the work that I do now and I'm happy to chat about any of those topics. Um, and just in case we do talk a lot ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kre5rn9frxt7jtwd4737kgyg)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - I've I've known who you are for a lot of uh for a long time. a lot of that being the WP diversity work that you were doing, but I think that like your name was floating around even before that um just in in the in the round. So, I was excited to to to go to your talk and then you gave a very similar sort of introduction and that I just like framing everything from a foundation like just like from the get-go like I just I just feel like that's just I don't know it helps me contextualize the space that I ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kre5rn9xdwge9f89hwrsdcmx)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - with doing a brainstorming session. And from there, a group of women and I created our 5-hour workshop, which is the foundation for what I've been doing ever since. And in this workshop, we first cover imposttor syndrome, the myths of who it is the person speaking up on stage. Especially um uh the well- reppresented people in a community when ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kre5rncng3dhna82kjw70pzw)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - conference talks after a whole bunch of how-to talks won't remember the details, but stories are engaging. People remember them. And so I've been really honing in over the years how to help people create great stories. Um and so then make WordPress said great you've had these amazing results. Other cities started running their own versions of it and they asked could I lead a team to ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kre5rnf2bfhwwh5sn88vqkf7)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - in our next few word camps as well. So that's how that all started. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, that overlaps with the with the thing that we we uh pinned uh earlier with with uh speaker selection and and the the blind speaker selection. Um I also I was involved in in Word Camp Salt Lake City for for many many many years. Um I was uh co-organizer for two years and then I was lead organizer for ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kre5rnk26m5x283fhyfxcjg8)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - coaching for public speaking. Um tell obviously that came out of your work from the WP diversity thing. Um but talk about how that sort of evolved and and what like what made you want to sort of focus in that. >> Yeah. Uh so when I came back from my um self-funded recovery sbatical, I was looking at what can I do and um I still had some corporate clients on the side. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kre5rnq6hrmh5x7k1cydnhvs)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - roles after speaking. my my um my whole stepping into being the the founder and lead of the WP diversity training initiative uh was right after I did a public speaking talk on how it how it was going with our workshop in Vancouver. Um I that was at Word Camp Seattle. Um and uh yeah, and so there's I've I had I've had so many stories. Um but there's one in particular that I ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kre5rnx70qqnp8meqjrg7dwy)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - um it's just this visibility thing that makes a huge difference for people. And so the combination of the fact that I ran this workshop literally 100 times over 5 years, reached 600 people in 50 countries. Um but also I have done a lot of public speaking myself before that. So I'm just very good at it. Um, I started off as a performance poet uh for ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kre5rp2am7jvj4kvevzyarz4)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - I was kind of tangentially in the slam scene for almost 10 years and that's where I really learned how to do public speaking. Um, and then in the work world I started giving a lot of talks when I was a other kinds of coaches and then when I was doing web development and then I started speaking at meetups and word camps when I got into the WordPress space. Um, and I just uh I'm a very anxietyfilled person and I've learned how to calm my own nerves and I'm able ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kre5rp63xek4w3dd5528rqam)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted