Episode 282 Devconnect 2025 With Lucas Fada

Episode 282: Devconnect 2025 With Lucas Fada ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/ZqR_1IrG78o/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [Episode 282: Devconnect 2025 With Lucas Fada](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqR_1IrG78o) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [open-source-funding, web3, sustainability] > author: Sustain Podcast > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqR_1IrG78o > date created: 2024-12-28 15:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: Episode 282: Devconnect 2025 with Lucas Fada >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Explore dependency funding for critical libraries — Lucas explains funding models #funding - [H2] Connect developers with funders for better understanding — Ask devs about critical dependencies #partnerships - [H3] Consider bounty programs for sustainable contribution — UNICEF collaboration model #bounties ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Drips Network](https://drips.network) - [EthersJS](https://github.com/ethers-io/ethers.js/) ## 📝 Summary - Lucas Fada, head of partnerships for Drips Network, discusses strategies for making open source financially sustainable through dependency funding and strategic partnerships - The conversation covers why funding needs to move beyond philanthropy toward strategic ecosystem alignment - Key partnerships include Filecoin, ENS, Scroll, UNICEF, and Ethereum Foundation - Drips enables funding to flow through dependency chains, solving the problem of invisible critical infrastructure - Bottom line: Web3 ecosystems offer unique opportunities for sustainable open source funding through aligned incentives ## 📖 Main Content Drips Network approaches open source sustainability by creating funding mechanisms that align funder interests with maintainer needs. Rather than traditional grant models, they focus on dependency funding where money flows through the dependency tree, allowing popular libraries to fund their own dependencies. This addresses the challenge that most critical infrastructure remains invisible to funders who typically only see high-visibility projects like EthersJS or OpenZeppelin. The platform serves as a "super app for funding open-source builders" offering multiple funding mechanisms: direct grants, retroactive funding, recurring bounties, and dependency funding. Each serves different stages of the developer journey, from newcomers earning through bounties to established maintainers receiving recurring support. Lucas emphasizes that many maintainers are uncomfortable with self-promotion and marketing, preferring to focus on building. Drips addresses this by allowing anonymous repository funding and handling the funder relationship management, removing the marketing burden from developers. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=0) — [H1] Introduction to Lucas and Drips Network - Key idea: Lucas leads partnerships to make open source financially sustainable - Evidence: "10 years of experience working in early stage startups" #### ⏱️ [02:30](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=150) — [H2] Partnership strategy with ecosystems - Key idea: Partnerships focus on understanding what ecosystems want to fund - Evidence: "talking to different ecosystem, understanding what they want to fund in open source" #### ⏱️ [04:15](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=255) — [H3] Questions asked to funders - Key idea: Start by identifying who's already talking about open source funding - Evidence: "we try to see who's the one talking about it or who's behind those things" #### ⏱️ [06:00](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=360) — [H2] Visible vs invisible projects - Key idea: Famous libraries get funding while critical dependencies remain unfunded - Evidence: "typically the projects that are more visible are not like down the tree" #### ⏱️ [07:45](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=465) — [H1] Dependency funding model - Key idea: Fund visible projects who then fund their dependencies - Evidence: "you can fund those but then you're allowing those dependencies to fund their dependencies" #### ⏱️ [09:30](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=570) — [H3] Funder motivations beyond altruism - Key idea: Ecosystems fund for strategic reasons like attracting developers - Evidence: "attract open source into their ecosystem...find your dependencies like that there are no security issues" #### ⏱️ [12:00](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=720) — [H2] Maintainer marketing challenges - Key idea: Most maintainers don't want to market themselves - Evidence: "a lot of them are not in for the money...they are builders. They don't want to market themselves" #### ⏱️ [15:30](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=930) — [H1] Super app for open source funding - Key idea: Multiple funding mechanisms serve different ecosystem needs - Evidence: "retroactive funding, direct grants, recurring bounties, dependency funding" #### ⏱️ [18:00](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=1080) — [H3] Fund me button and crypto payments - Key idea: Simple funding mechanisms with no platform fees - Evidence: "we don't take any cuts and it's crypto so all the money goes to them" #### ⏱️ [21:30](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=1290) — [H2] Marketing as community effort - Key idea: Open source community could provide marketing support - Evidence: "have some sort of like marketing department where we go around different projects" #### ⏱️ [24:00](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=1440) — [H1] Funders talking to developers - Key idea: Best way for funders to understand value is talking to internal developers - Evidence: "ask them if you took one of these outs...What would happen if we forked this" #### ⏱️ [27:15](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=1635) — [H1] Moving beyond philanthropy - Key idea: Web3 ecosystems are naturally open source aligned - Evidence: "one of the most open-source ecosystems out there...It's modular. It's part of the ethos" #### ⏱️ [31:00](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=1860) — [H2] Career path for maintainers - Key idea: Multiple funding stages support different career phases - Evidence: "bounties for open source builders...direct grants...retroactive grants" #### ⏱️ [34:30](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=2070) — [H1] UNICEF partnership - Key idea: Working with UNICEF on digital public goods funding - Evidence: "giving a funding mechanism for their DPGs digital public goods" ## 📚 References - [Drips Network](https://drips.network) - [EthersJS by RickMoo](https://github.com/ethers-io/ethers.js/) - [OpenZeppelin](https://openzeppelin.com) - [UNICEF Digital Public Goods](https://unicef.github.io/publicgoods/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Drips Network creates sustainable funding for open source by aligning ecosystem incentives with maintainer needs, using dependency funding to support invisible critical infrastructure - The platform offers multiple funding mechanisms (grants, bounties, retroactive funding) to support developers at different career stages while removing marketing burdens from maintainers - Web3 ecosystems provide unique opportunities for open source funding because they're inherently open source and need to attract builders to their platforms ## 📰 Newsletter **Sustainable Open Source Funding Through Web3 Ecosystems** Lucas Fada from Drips Network shares insights on making open source maintenance a viable career through strategic ecosystem partnerships. Their "super app for funding open-source builders" offers multiple pathways: dependency funding, direct grants, retroactive rewards, and recurring bounties. Key insight: Most critical dependencies remain invisible to funders. Drips solves this by letting popular projects fund their own dependencies, creating a sustainable funding chain. **For WordPress builders:** Consider how dependency funding could work in the WordPress ecosystem - popular plugins funding the libraries they depend on. Resources: [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [Developer Docs](https://developer.wordpress.org/), [WP-CLI](https://wp-cli.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### Community - Maintainers: Explore dependency funding models for WordPress ecosystem - Contributors: Investigate bounty programs as entry point to sustainable contribution - Sponsors: Connect internal developers with funding decision makers #### WordPress - Core: Analyze critical dependencies that could benefit from funding chains - Community: Develop marketing support systems for maintainers uncomfortable with self-promotion - Plugins: Consider how popular plugins could fund their dependencies ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Dependency funding creates more sustainable support than direct project funding alone - Maintainers avoid marketing because it conflicts with builder identity and values - Web3 ecosystems provide better open source funding alignment than traditional tech - Bounty programs serve as effective onramps to long-term open source careers ### 📊 Methodology - Survey maintainers about marketing comfort levels and funding preferences - Track funding flow patterns in dependency vs direct funding models - Analyze career progression from bounty contributors to full-time maintainers ### ❓ Questions - How can traditional package registries implement dependency funding visibility? - What governance models work best for ecosystem-level open source funding? - How do we measure the true value of invisible critical infrastructure? ### 🔮 Future Research - Impact measurement for dependency funding vs traditional grants - Cross-ecosystem funding coordination mechanisms - Developer career pathway optimization through funding stage design ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Open source projects need funding strategy beyond individual donations - Policy: Ecosystem funding requires alignment between funder goals and maintainer needs - Education: Developers need training on communicating project value to funders - Funding: Multiple funding mechanisms serve different developer career stages ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 8-9 #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Dependency tree concepts, funding flow descriptions - Improve: Diagrams showing funding cascades, ecosystem partnership maps #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full podcast episode with conversational format - Improve: Audio highlights focusing on key funding mechanisms #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear definitions of funding types, ecosystem terminology - Improve: Analogies comparing funding models to familiar concepts #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Step-by-step partnership development process - Improve: Interactive funding calculator, hands-on ecosystem analysis #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Strategic alignment framework, career progression stages - Improve: Decision trees for funding mechanism selection #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community discussion about funding challenges - Improve: Peer feedback on funding strategy development #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual project funding assessment prompts - Improve: Self-evaluation worksheets for funding readiness #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Ecosystem-based funding model analogies - Improve: Sustainability lifecycle thinking for projects ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, descriptive timestamps - Improve: Alt text for any funding flow diagrams #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard podcast player controls - Improve: Keyboard shortcuts for timestamp navigation #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard text contrast ratios - Improve: High contrast mode for funding data visualization #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided - Improve: Timestamp synchronization with audio ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Global south examples (Sierra Leone), international partnerships (UNICEF) - Improve: More diverse ecosystem examples beyond web3 #### Inclusive language - Present: Gender-neutral terms, technical jargon explained - Improve: Plain language summaries for complex funding concepts #### Representation - Present: Focus on underrepresented developer career paths - Improve: More diverse maintainer examples and success stories ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Causal reasoning: Strong connection between visibility and funding success - Analogical strength: Good comparison of dependency trees to funding flows - Inductive strength: Solid generalization from ecosystem partnerships #### Fallacies - Appeal to novelty: Minor overemphasis on crypto solutions - False dichotomy: Presents philanthropy vs strategic funding as binary choice #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Conversational and optimistic with practical focus ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - No concerning patterns detected - Balanced presentation of challenges and solutions - Acknowledges both funder and maintainer perspectives ## 🎯 Conclusion Drips Network demonstrates that sustainable open source funding requires moving beyond traditional philanthropy toward strategic ecosystem alignment. By creating multiple funding pathways and solving the visibility problem of critical dependencies, they're building infrastructure for making open source maintenance a viable career. The key insight is that funders and maintainers both benefit when funding mechanisms align with natural ecosystem incentives rather than requiring artificial philanthropy. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### [H1] Dependency funding solves critical infrastructure invisibility > [!quote] Episode 282: Devconnect 2025 with Lucas Fada by Sustain Podcast via YouTube. Published 2024. Accessed 2024-12-28. > "You can fund those but then you're allowing those dependencies to fund their dependencies." Addresses the core challenge of critical infrastructure funding through cascade mechanisms. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=465#H1) #funding #infrastructure ID:rw_dep001 ### [H2] Maintainers resist marketing due to identity conflict > [!quote] Episode 282: Devconnect 2025 with Lucas Fada > "They are builders. They don't want to market themselves and they don't feel comfortable marketing themselves." Explains why traditional funding approaches fail with technical maintainers. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=720#H2) #marketing #maintainers ID:rw_mar001 --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) #### [Z1] Funders need internal developer input for dependency prioritization - Scope: Applies to organizations using open source dependencies - Pointer: 24:00 timestamp discussion with developers - Links: [[Funding-Strategy]] [[Developer-Advocacy]] #### [Z2] Multiple funding stages create career pathways for contributors - Scope: Sustainable open source career development - Pointer: 31:00 career progression discussion - Links: [[Bounty-Programs]] [[Maintainer-Sustainability]] --- ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue - [F1] Research RickMoo's full-time maintainer model — EthersJS example #fleeting #research - [F2] Explore UNICEF digital public goods partnerships — Global south opportunities #fleeting #partnerships - [F3] Investigate crypto payment systems for open source — Zero fee models #fleeting #payments --- ## Full Transcript [00:10] Hello and welcome to sustain the podcast [00:14] where we talk about sustaining open [00:16] source for the longhaul. [00:19] I am Errol Fox and with me today is [00:22] >> Victory Brown and we are speaking to [00:25] Lucas who is head of partnerships for [00:28] Drips Network. Lucas is bringing more [00:31] than 10 years of experience working in [00:34] early stage startups. His primary focus [00:36] at Drips has been on achieving the [00:39] company's vision of making open-source [00:41] software projects and maintainers [00:43] financially sustainable. Oh, a dream. by [00:47] strategically aligning them with the [00:49] needs of funders. Lucas is responsible [00:52] for leading all goto market strategies [00:55] for drips, interacting with ecosystems, [00:58] funders, and communities. This results [01:00] in partnerships with missional aligned [01:02] ecosystems such as Filecoin, ENS, [01:06] Scroll, UNICEF, and the EF. Hey, Lucas, [01:10] can you tell us a little bit more about [01:11] what doing partnerships for Drips [01:14] networks entails? Yeah, sure. So, as I [01:17] was saying before, I'm not usually asked [01:20] questions. I ask other people questions [01:22] to bring money into open source. [01:26] So, yeah, a lot of my work is around [01:30] talking to different ecosystem, [01:31] understanding what they want to fund in [01:33] open source and find ways in which our [01:36] protocol and products that we build on [01:39] top of that can service some of those [01:42] needs. [01:43] So, what are the most common questions [01:46] that you're asking funders? Or correct [01:48] me if I'm not using the right words, but [01:51] what are the most common questions or [01:53] topics that you end up having with these [01:56] funders for supporting open source [01:59] projects and the ecosystems that you're [02:01] funding for? [02:02] >> Yeah, that's a great question. So, [02:04] actually it starts before talking to the [02:06] funders and understanding if they have [02:08] done some work or some funding around [02:11] open source. So whenever we find some of [02:14] that information, we try to see who's [02:16] the one talking about it or who's behind [02:18] those things. So those people tend to be [02:21] more aligned with funding open source [02:23] right in that specific ecosystem. So [02:26] once we talk with these people, we try [02:29] to understand how funding those [02:31] open-source repositories or public goods [02:35] came about, why they do it, how does it [02:38] align with their strategy and then from [02:41] there we try to build and talk a little [02:42] bit about our primitive is our protocol [02:46] and how we did things with other [02:47] ecosystems that might inspire them. [02:50] >> Thank you Luka. Earl in your experience [02:54] with speaking to open source funders, [02:56] what are the kind of projects that [02:57] you've seen most funders being [02:59] interested in in the open source space? [03:02] Can you highlight some of them? [03:04] >> Yeah, for sure. So, typically the [03:06] projects that are more visible [03:10] are not like down the tree in their [03:12] dependency tree. So sometimes very [03:15] famous libraries like ethosjs [03:18] or webm for example, open zeppelin are [03:21] the ones that you hear the most. But [03:24] that's what we are trying to do at [03:25] drips. You can fund those but then [03:29] you're allowing those dependencies to [03:32] fund their dependencies. [03:34] So it doesn't necessarily mean that the [03:38] funer needs to understand or needs to [03:40] fund all their critical dependencies [03:42] just the ones they think are the most [03:43] critical and then they pass the ball to [03:47] those dependencies who can pass it on [03:50] through their dependencies. That's how [03:51] we are building a dependency graph. [03:54] >> Okay. So do you think this is more from [03:57] the fun side if it's personal interest [04:00] or based on what these projects [04:02] specifically interested in giving back [04:04] to communities? [04:06] I think we need to distinguish [04:09] what people want which is sometimes to [04:12] give back and what an ecosystem might [04:15] need right so when I talk to people like [04:17] behind ecosystems it's people and they [04:20] are highly aligned with what we do but [04:23] sometimes the ecosystem or to sell these [04:24] ideas internally you need to align with [04:28] different things one of those things [04:30] might be to attract open source into [04:32] their ecosystem right and that's very [04:34] legitimate another one could [04:36] find your dependencies like that there [04:39] are no security issues. If one of those [04:41] dependencies get compromised all the [04:43] dependency tree will get compromised and [04:46] another one it might be virtue signaling [04:48] for them or using as a marketing tool [04:50] right I'm funding dependencies look we [04:54] are no contribution will go unrecognized [04:56] so it all works if they fund open source [05:00] in my opinion [05:02] >> I think I realized as you were talking [05:04] maybe why drips network is called drips [05:07] because it's like the money dripping [05:09] down through the dependency chain as [05:11] well. So, I had like a aha moment about [05:13] maybe how you're named, but I'm really [05:16] curious speaking on behalf of maybe some [05:19] of the listeners of this podcast that [05:20] are running some of these critical [05:22] dependencies or some of these projects [05:25] that are harder to see and that maybe [05:27] don't get this effect of being supported [05:30] by what dependencies they are for. As [05:34] far as strategic things that open source [05:37] projects can do to highlight themselves [05:41] for funding, what would you advise a [05:44] open source project to do strategically [05:47] in order to be more visible, more [05:50] fundable, more kind of more there ready [05:53] to receive what they need? [05:55] >> Well, I think there are two parts to [05:57] that answer. In my work with talking and [06:01] working with maintainers from these [06:04] projects, I realized that a lot of them [06:07] are not in for the money and some of [06:10] them are not even comfortable talking [06:11] about money. Some others are, [06:14] but then outside from that they are [06:17] builders. They don't want to market [06:19] themselves and they don't feel [06:21] comfortable marketing themselves. So [06:23] there are some strategies they can apply [06:25] to market like having a discord or like [06:28] some sort of community, [06:30] adding certain logos into their website [06:33] or into their repo, giving priority to [06:37] certain funders. But in my experience, [06:40] they don't want to do that because this [06:42] is not why they are in for. [06:45] That's the problem we are trying to [06:47] solve. You're drip list. Anyone can fund [06:50] you. You would also signal what's [06:52] important to you. What percentage goes [06:54] to the maintainer? What percentage can [06:56] go to their dependencies or to other [06:58] contributors? And then our work is to [07:02] find funders as well. [07:05] We've been successful at it. I think we [07:07] can do a better job and I think there is [07:09] a long way to go into offering different [07:12] solutions for funders in order to fund [07:15] their dependencies or the open-source [07:17] developers projects in their ecosystems. [07:21] This is why we are building what we call [07:23] the super app for funding open-source [07:26] builders. So that targets to a lot of [07:29] the different initiatives that an [07:31] ecosystem might want to run like [07:33] retroactive funding, direct grants, [07:36] recurring bounties, dependency funding, [07:39] right? So those experiences try to [07:42] tailor to different ecosystems depending [07:45] on what they want to do, what they want [07:47] to achieve. [07:50] Is there anything that you think that [07:52] package registries could do differently [07:55] specifically for highlighting what the [07:58] needs might be for specific open source [08:00] packages? Is there anything that you [08:02] would really love for a package registry [08:04] like npm or ruby gems or Pippi to like [08:08] do in order to make this more visible? [08:12] >> Yeah, there are certain things that they [08:14] can do. So something that we launched [08:16] for example is a fund me button on their [08:20] GitHub repository but there is buy me a [08:22] coffee and other things they can do [08:24] right GitHub sponsors the cool thing [08:27] about that is that we don't take any [08:28] cuts and it's crypto so all the money [08:31] goes to them [08:33] so that's one of the things they can do [08:35] and these people go to a lot of [08:37] conferences they are part of communities [08:39] so just highlighting that there is a way [08:43] for them to get funding and that that [08:45] funding will go to them because with [08:48] drips you're funding the repository [08:50] itself. You don't need to know who's [08:53] behind the repo. So you can fund that [08:56] thing that you use and then they can [08:58] signal where is the money going and that [09:02] the money is going somewhere because [09:03] it's all on chain. So that's my [09:07] suggestion. But to me it's always about [09:09] like for them to keep building and us [09:12] making it easier for them to showcase [09:15] without the feeling that they are [09:17] marketers. power. [09:19] >> I remember speaking to Sona Bonewald at [09:23] the le at one point and marketing was [09:27] something that we used to talk about a [09:28] lot about how [09:30] a lot of open source projects are not [09:33] like allergic to marketing but it feels [09:36] like anti-open source in a way because [09:38] it feels proprietary commercial but that [09:42] really marketing is about communication. [09:45] It's about how you get out there, how [09:46] you tell people about what you're doing [09:48] and why it's important. The thought that [09:50] if you build something and people will [09:52] just find out is kind of not always [09:55] right. Right. You need to tell people [09:56] and get out there and do stuff. [09:59] >> Just brainstorming. There are many [10:01] things they could be doing. And maybe [10:04] something we need to do as a community [10:06] is to have some sort of like marketing [10:09] department where we go around different [10:12] projects part of the community and help [10:14] them market in different ways. This way [10:17] they don't feel they are just selling [10:19] their soul to corporations. [10:22] But yeah, that's just one idea. There [10:24] are probably thousands of others. [10:27] So similarly to the question that I [10:29] asked about what package registries [10:30] could do or other people can do. I'm [10:32] thinking about what funders could [10:35] proactively do. So I know from my [10:39] experience the funders that I'm involved [10:41] with kind of really struggle to [10:43] understand why a dependency is really [10:46] important. Maybe it's again about that [10:49] communication effort about understanding [10:51] why a dependency is critical. But what [10:54] kind of proactive things have funders [10:57] done or that you talk about with funders [11:01] in order to better understand the [11:03] ecosystem? Is there places where you [11:04] advise, okay, this is where you need to [11:06] go to better understand what's happening [11:08] here? Is there anything that the [11:10] Thunders can be doing proactively to [11:13] better understand how they can support [11:14] open source and critical digital [11:16] infrastructure? Right. [11:18] >> That's a really good point. Like what [11:20] can they be doing? What can funders be [11:22] doing in order to understand the value [11:25] of open source? I think [11:29] the most important thing for a funer to [11:31] do is to talk to the developers [11:36] within those companies projects because [11:39] the developers are the ones who are the [11:41] closest to the code. And if you ask [11:43] pretty much any developer and you give [11:44] them 10 to 15 minutes, they will come up [11:48] with their top five to 10 critical [11:50] dependencies. and why they are [11:51] important. You just ask them if you took [11:54] one of these outs, one of these [11:56] dependencies out. [11:58] What would happen if we forked this and [12:01] we needed to maintain this? How many [12:03] people would need to work on something [12:05] like this? And I think that will bring [12:09] realization [12:11] into the funders on why essentially it's [12:14] important to fund their dependencies. [12:16] Aside from what we discussed before, [12:19] security issues, attracting developers [12:22] and many other things that are out [12:24] there, but I think the best way to [12:26] convince someone is from within and not [12:28] from outside. [12:30] >> So on this note, I think you wrote [12:32] something in our prep document which is [12:33] about how funding open source needs to [12:36] move out of the realm of philanthropy [12:38] and crisis management. This makes me [12:41] think a lot about when the pandemic [12:43] started and all of a sudden a lot of [12:45] revenue that some foundations had [12:48] through events was suddenly not there [12:50] anymore and a lot of the foundations [12:53] were trying to find ways to fund what [12:56] they do when it was originally through [12:59] ticketed events or other things that [13:00] were in person and co made us all go [13:03] online rightly so to avoid infection. [13:07] I'm really curious to hear more about [13:09] your thoughts around how funding open [13:12] source can move out of that philanthropy [13:15] crisis management process and what maybe [13:19] the web 3 blockchain crypto space cuz [13:22] we're here at Devcon with the Ethereum [13:24] Foundation. What that space offers for [13:27] that challenge? [13:29] >> Well, I can start with the last part. [13:31] Why web 3? It's one of the most [13:35] open-source ecosystems out there, right? [13:37] It's modular. It's part of the ethos. [13:39] Even though there are many projects that [13:40] are not open source, I think we start [13:43] from there. And then the second part [13:45] about web 3 is that most of it are [13:47] ecosystems and ecosystems are open for [13:51] builders to come in and write open [13:54] source code in the languages that these [13:56] ecosystems want using the libraries [13:58] these ecosystems want them to use. So [14:01] yeah, I think web 3 is a very [14:04] opensourced driven ecosystem because the [14:08] different blockchains are typically open [14:10] source and they try to attract builders [14:13] and give them grants if they build in [14:15] the open. So how can we move out of the [14:18] philanthropy kind of discourse for [14:21] funding open source? It's hard work [14:24] because it's around [14:26] aligning with what they want to do and [14:29] offering a solution for that in a way [14:32] that [14:34] doesn't extract money that goes to the [14:37] open source builders because there are [14:39] solutions to fund open source but I [14:41] think they're very extractive. [14:43] So I think that's the hard work and [14:46] sometimes is [14:48] being a bit more pragmatic around what [14:51] we build for funders to fund [14:54] instead of [14:57] to um how can I put this? Yeah. purist [15:01] around open source, right? We need to [15:03] find a middle point where the funer is [15:07] interested [15:09] and the open source builder gets [15:12] benefited and can be rewarded for their [15:14] work. I think that's what we've been [15:16] doing at Drips really well is finding [15:18] that middle ground. [15:19] >> Yeah. Just to build on what you just [15:22] said about OSS maintenance and all, how [15:25] can we make being an OSS maintainer or [15:30] builder like a viable career in this [15:32] ecosystem and the way things are right [15:34] now [15:36] >> to make open source maintenance a viable [15:39] career. [15:39] >> Yeah, [15:40] >> that's our core. How can we do that? So [15:45] we are building solutions for different [15:48] stages of their maintenance or building [15:52] path. So we started with dependency [15:55] funding and dependency funding typically [15:57] funds critical dependencies and those [16:00] that are like widely used like ethersjs [16:04] right but then we launch direct grants [16:08] or we are launching direct grants. So [16:10] that's the traditional grant process. [16:12] Retroactive grants which is projects in [16:16] an ecosystem that may have built [16:18] something and then badge holders or a [16:22] jury decides what the impact is and they [16:24] reward them for that. And lastly, we [16:27] just launched Drip's wave, which is [16:30] bounties for open source builders. And [16:32] those are typically just starting out [16:34] and maybe they don't consider themselves [16:36] even open source builders, but [16:38] they start seeing the value contributing [16:40] in the open and getting rewarded for [16:42] that. [16:43] >> Yeah. So, what I'm hearing is there's [16:45] some form of hierarchy on how you're [16:48] helping builders build. So even at the [16:50] lowest level it's like even as a [16:52] contributor you're being recognized and [16:55] your contribution and that contribution [16:58] needs some form of recognition which [16:59] makes you want to do more build more and [17:02] then you keep growing on that. Yeah, [17:04] that's really wonderful. [17:05] >> Exactly. And a lot of these things are [17:07] very interesting for funders. [17:09] >> Yeah, [17:09] >> retroactive funding. Look at optimism. [17:11] Look at filecoin direct grants. Who [17:14] doesn't do a direct grant? And bounties. [17:17] A lot of ecosystems have bounty [17:20] programs. What we're doing now is [17:23] running them recurringly every month in [17:26] a way that opensource builders can [17:28] continue sharpening their skills with [17:29] real life repositories and then if code [17:32] gets merged they can also get funding [17:34] for that. Oh, that's really beautiful [17:36] because I think one of the speakers [17:38] mentioned something around how in the [17:40] web 3 space they fund excitement and [17:43] that makes people want to do more in the [17:46] open source space they fund people who [17:50] already have this ability. So I think [17:52] that's kind of like the differences that [17:54] I'm noticing here which is really [17:56] awesome. [17:57] >> And I see something that gets me excited [18:00] is we are also working with UNICEF on [18:04] essentially giving a funding mechanism [18:05] for their DPGs digital public goods. [18:09] >> Yeah, [18:09] >> we're launching our first trip place [18:11] with five of their most um used [18:15] repositories. [18:16] So anyone can fund them. But something [18:18] that is exciting for me personally is [18:20] that they work with lots of governments [18:23] that are trying [18:25] that their youth get into tech [18:28] governments in the global south. The [18:30] first one that comes to mind is Sierra [18:32] Leon. And we haven't done anything yet [18:36] with those governments and UNICEF, but [18:38] it's an idea for them to start coming [18:41] into these open source bounties, [18:44] learn skills, apply them in real life, [18:46] get some funding, build their portfolio, [18:48] and then potentially build a career that [18:51] is very good for them. [18:52] >> I love this. And we haven't got much [18:54] time left to delve more into this, but [18:56] maybe another time we can have a longer [18:58] conversation. I know some people that [19:00] are skeptical about bounties. They're [19:02] like, "Oh, it doesn't encourage [19:04] long-term whatever contribution, but I [19:07] see the benefits of bounties mean that [19:10] you don't get locked into like grant [19:12] deliverables and reporting." And not [19:14] everyone wants to do that, right? Like [19:16] not everyone wants to receive a grant [19:18] and have to be sign a very scary [19:21] contract to participate in open source [19:24] and be compensated. And bounties I see [19:27] as like a way of really encouraging a [19:31] soft landing into open-source and also [19:35] recognizing the value of all kinds of [19:37] contributions, not just huge big grantf [19:41] funed feature developments or whatever [19:43] or security builds and things like that. [19:46] And it does also mean that you can [19:48] distribute across more people in the [19:51] ecosystem. So it's really exciting to [19:52] hear about. Lucas, where can people find [19:56] you on the internet to hear more about [19:58] what you have to say on these topics? [20:00] >> So, I guess X Twitter [20:03] is the number one. My handle is L U K F [20:08] A Luke FA and that's probably the best [20:11] way you can DM me. Then we can continue [20:14] our conversation on Signal, Telegram, or [20:17] even our Discord, Brits Discord, which [20:20] is open for everyone. [20:22] >> Awesome. And do you have a project that [20:23] you'd like to spotlight for us? A [20:25] project that's been meaningful for you [20:26] or something else? [20:28] >> I personally really like EthosJS and the [20:31] maintainer behind Rigmu. I'm a big fan [20:33] of Rigmu. He also created Firefly, a [20:37] wallet that I think costs $1. He's been [20:40] giving them away, a hard wallet. So, [20:44] everyone uses Ether's JS, but I really [20:49] appreciate Rick's way of doing things [20:52] and that he managed to become a [20:55] full-time open-source maintainer, [20:57] builder, and that's probably the one I [21:00] want to highlight. [21:01] >> Amazing. And with that, I'll say thank [21:02] you very much, Lucas, for speaking to [21:04] us. And, uh, thank you listeners for [21:06] listening. [21:08] >> Thank you very much. [21:09] >> Thank you.  [[3. Resources/Readwise/Full Document Contents/Articles/Episode 282 Devconnect 2025 With Lucas Fada|Full Document Contents]] ## Document Notes --- tags: #open-source-funding #web3 #sustainability author: Sustain Podcast source: YouTube reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqR_1IrG78o date created: 2024-12-28 15:30 --- # 🏷️ Title: Episode 282: Devconnect 2025 with Lucas Fada ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Explore dependency funding for critical libraries — Lucas explains funding models #funding - [H2] Connect developers with funders for better understanding — Ask devs about critical dependencies #partnerships - [H3] Consider bounty programs for sustainable contribution — UNICEF collaboration model #bounties ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [[#📝 Summary]] - [[#📖 Main Content]] - [[#🗒️ Notes]] - [[#📚 References]] - [[#🗣️ Paraphrase]] - [[#📰 Newsletter]] - [[#✅ Action Items]] - [[#🧪 Hypotheses]] - [[#📊 Methodology]] - [[#❓ Questions]] - [[#🔮 Future Research]] - [[#💡 Implications]] - [[#🧠 Learning Styles Assessment]] - [[#📊 Accessibility Assessment]] - [[#🌍 DEIB Assessment]] - [[#✅ Logical Validity]] - [[#🛡️ DARVO Analysis]] - [[#🎯 Conclusion]] ### 🔗 References - [Drips Network](https://drips.network) - [EthersJS](https://github.com/ethers-io/ethers.js/) ## 📝 Summary - Lucas Fada, head of partnerships for Drips Network, discusses strategies for making open source financially sustainable through dependency funding and strategic partnerships - The conversation covers why funding needs to move beyond philanthropy toward strategic ecosystem alignment - Key partnerships include Filecoin, ENS, Scroll, UNICEF, and Ethereum Foundation - Drips enables funding to flow through dependency chains, solving the problem of invisible critical infrastructure - Bottom line: Web3 ecosystems offer unique opportunities for sustainable open source funding through aligned incentives ## 📖 Main Content Drips Network approaches open source sustainability by creating funding mechanisms that align funder interests with maintainer needs. Rather than traditional grant models, they focus on dependency funding where money flows through the dependency tree, allowing popular libraries to fund their own dependencies. This addresses the challenge that most critical infrastructure remains invisible to funders who typically only see high-visibility projects like EthersJS or OpenZeppelin. The platform serves as a "super app for funding open-source builders" offering multiple funding mechanisms: direct grants, retroactive funding, recurring bounties, and dependency funding. Each serves different stages of the developer journey, from newcomers earning through bounties to established maintainers receiving recurring support. Lucas emphasizes that many maintainers are uncomfortable with self-promotion and marketing, preferring to focus on building. Drips addresses this by allowing anonymous repository funding and handling the funder relationship management, removing the marketing burden from developers. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=0) — [H1] Introduction to Lucas and Drips Network - Key idea: Lucas leads partnerships to make open source financially sustainable - Evidence: "10 years of experience working in early stage startups" #### ⏱️ [02:30](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=150) — [H2] Partnership strategy with ecosystems - Key idea: Partnerships focus on understanding what ecosystems want to fund - Evidence: "talking to different ecosystem, understanding what they want to fund in open source" #### ⏱️ [04:15](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=255) — [H3] Questions asked to funders - Key idea: Start by identifying who's already talking about open source funding - Evidence: "we try to see who's the one talking about it or who's behind those things" #### ⏱️ [06:00](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=360) — [H2] Visible vs invisible projects - Key idea: Famous libraries get funding while critical dependencies remain unfunded - Evidence: "typically the projects that are more visible are not like down the tree" #### ⏱️ [07:45](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=465) — [H1] Dependency funding model - Key idea: Fund visible projects who then fund their dependencies - Evidence: "you can fund those but then you're allowing those dependencies to fund their dependencies" #### ⏱️ [09:30](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=570) — [H3] Funder motivations beyond altruism - Key idea: Ecosystems fund for strategic reasons like attracting developers - Evidence: "attract open source into their ecosystem...find your dependencies like that there are no security issues" #### ⏱️ [12:00](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=720) — [H2] Maintainer marketing challenges - Key idea: Most maintainers don't want to market themselves - Evidence: "a lot of them are not in for the money...they are builders. They don't want to market themselves" #### ⏱️ [15:30](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=930) — [H1] Super app for open source funding - Key idea: Multiple funding mechanisms serve different ecosystem needs - Evidence: "retroactive funding, direct grants, recurring bounties, dependency funding" #### ⏱️ [18:00](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=1080) — [H3] Fund me button and crypto payments - Key idea: Simple funding mechanisms with no platform fees - Evidence: "we don't take any cuts and it's crypto so all the money goes to them" #### ⏱️ [21:30](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=1290) — [H2] Marketing as community effort - Key idea: Open source community could provide marketing support - Evidence: "have some sort of like marketing department where we go around different projects" #### ⏱️ [24:00](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=1440) — [H1] Funders talking to developers - Key idea: Best way for funders to understand value is talking to internal developers - Evidence: "ask them if you took one of these outs...What would happen if we forked this" #### ⏱️ [27:15](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=1635) — [H1] Moving beyond philanthropy - Key idea: Web3 ecosystems are naturally open source aligned - Evidence: "one of the most open-source ecosystems out there...It's modular. It's part of the ethos" #### ⏱️ [31:00](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=1860) — [H2] Career path for maintainers - Key idea: Multiple funding stages support different career phases - Evidence: "bounties for open source builders...direct grants...retroactive grants" #### ⏱️ [34:30](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=2070) — [H1] UNICEF partnership - Key idea: Working with UNICEF on digital public goods funding - Evidence: "giving a funding mechanism for their DPGs digital public goods" ## 📚 References - [Drips Network](https://drips.network) - [EthersJS by RickMoo](https://github.com/ethers-io/ethers.js/) - [OpenZeppelin](https://openzeppelin.com) - [UNICEF Digital Public Goods](https://unicef.github.io/publicgoods/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Drips Network creates sustainable funding for open source by aligning ecosystem incentives with maintainer needs, using dependency funding to support invisible critical infrastructure - The platform offers multiple funding mechanisms (grants, bounties, retroactive funding) to support developers at different career stages while removing marketing burdens from maintainers - Web3 ecosystems provide unique opportunities for open source funding because they're inherently open source and need to attract builders to their platforms ## 📰 Newsletter **Sustainable Open Source Funding Through Web3 Ecosystems** Lucas Fada from Drips Network shares insights on making open source maintenance a viable career through strategic ecosystem partnerships. Their "super app for funding open-source builders" offers multiple pathways: dependency funding, direct grants, retroactive rewards, and recurring bounties. Key insight: Most critical dependencies remain invisible to funders. Drips solves this by letting popular projects fund their own dependencies, creating a sustainable funding chain. **For WordPress builders:** Consider how dependency funding could work in the WordPress ecosystem - popular plugins funding the libraries they depend on. Resources: [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [Developer Docs](https://developer.wordpress.org/), [WP-CLI](https://wp-cli.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### Community - Maintainers: Explore dependency funding models for WordPress ecosystem - Contributors: Investigate bounty programs as entry point to sustainable contribution - Sponsors: Connect internal developers with funding decision makers #### WordPress - Core: Analyze critical dependencies that could benefit from funding chains - Community: Develop marketing support systems for maintainers uncomfortable with self-promotion - Plugins: Consider how popular plugins could fund their dependencies ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Dependency funding creates more sustainable support than direct project funding alone - Maintainers avoid marketing because it conflicts with builder identity and values - Web3 ecosystems provide better open source funding alignment than traditional tech - Bounty programs serve as effective onramps to long-term open source careers ### 📊 Methodology - Survey maintainers about marketing comfort levels and funding preferences - Track funding flow patterns in dependency vs direct funding models - Analyze career progression from bounty contributors to full-time maintainers ### ❓ Questions - How can traditional package registries implement dependency funding visibility? - What governance models work best for ecosystem-level open source funding? - How do we measure the true value of invisible critical infrastructure? ### 🔮 Future Research - Impact measurement for dependency funding vs traditional grants - Cross-ecosystem funding coordination mechanisms - Developer career pathway optimization through funding stage design ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Open source projects need funding strategy beyond individual donations - Policy: Ecosystem funding requires alignment between funder goals and maintainer needs - Education: Developers need training on communicating project value to funders - Funding: Multiple funding mechanisms serve different developer career stages ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 8-9 #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Dependency tree concepts, funding flow descriptions - Improve: Diagrams showing funding cascades, ecosystem partnership maps #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full podcast episode with conversational format - Improve: Audio highlights focusing on key funding mechanisms #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear definitions of funding types, ecosystem terminology - Improve: Analogies comparing funding models to familiar concepts #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Step-by-step partnership development process - Improve: Interactive funding calculator, hands-on ecosystem analysis #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Strategic alignment framework, career progression stages - Improve: Decision trees for funding mechanism selection #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community discussion about funding challenges - Improve: Peer feedback on funding strategy development #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual project funding assessment prompts - Improve: Self-evaluation worksheets for funding readiness #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Ecosystem-based funding model analogies - Improve: Sustainability lifecycle thinking for projects ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, descriptive timestamps - Improve: Alt text for any funding flow diagrams #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard podcast player controls - Improve: Keyboard shortcuts for timestamp navigation #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard text contrast ratios - Improve: High contrast mode for funding data visualization #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided - Improve: Timestamp synchronization with audio ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Global south examples (Sierra Leone), international partnerships (UNICEF) - Improve: More diverse ecosystem examples beyond web3 #### Inclusive language - Present: Gender-neutral terms, technical jargon explained - Improve: Plain language summaries for complex funding concepts #### Representation - Present: Focus on underrepresented developer career paths - Improve: More diverse maintainer examples and success stories ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Causal reasoning: Strong connection between visibility and funding success - Analogical strength: Good comparison of dependency trees to funding flows - Inductive strength: Solid generalization from ecosystem partnerships #### Fallacies - Appeal to novelty: Minor overemphasis on crypto solutions - False dichotomy: Presents philanthropy vs strategic funding as binary choice #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Conversational and optimistic with practical focus ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - No concerning patterns detected - Balanced presentation of challenges and solutions - Acknowledges both funder and maintainer perspectives ## 🎯 Conclusion Drips Network demonstrates that sustainable open source funding requires moving beyond traditional philanthropy toward strategic ecosystem alignment. By creating multiple funding pathways and solving the visibility problem of critical dependencies, they're building infrastructure for making open source maintenance a viable career. The key insight is that funders and maintainers both benefit when funding mechanisms align with natural ecosystem incentives rather than requiring artificial philanthropy. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### [H1] Dependency funding solves critical infrastructure invisibility > [!quote] Episode 282: Devconnect 2025 with Lucas Fada by Sustain Podcast via YouTube. Published 2024. Accessed 2024-12-28. > "You can fund those but then you're allowing those dependencies to fund their dependencies." Addresses the core challenge of critical infrastructure funding through cascade mechanisms. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=465#H1) #funding #infrastructure ID:rw_dep001 ### [H2] Maintainers resist marketing due to identity conflict > [!quote] Episode 282: Devconnect 2025 with Lucas Fada > "They are builders. They don't want to market themselves and they don't feel comfortable marketing themselves." Explains why traditional funding approaches fail with technical maintainers. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/ZqR_1IrG78o?t=720#H2) #marketing #maintainers ID:rw_mar001 --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) #### [Z1] Funders need internal developer input for dependency prioritization - Scope: Applies to organizations using open source dependencies - Pointer: 24:00 timestamp discussion with developers - Links: [[Funding-Strategy]] [[Developer-Advocacy]] #### [Z2] Multiple funding stages create career pathways for contributors - Scope: Sustainable open source career development - Pointer: 31:00 career progression discussion - Links: [[Bounty-Programs]] [[Maintainer-Sustainability]] --- ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue - [F1] Research RickMoo's full-time maintainer model — EthersJS example #fleeting #research - [F2] Explore UNICEF digital public goods partnerships — Global south opportunities #fleeting #partnerships - [F3] Investigate crypto payment systems for open source — Zero fee models #fleeting #payments --- ## Full Transcript [00:10] Hello and welcome to sustain the podcast [00:14] where we talk about sustaining open [00:16] source for the longhaul. [00:19] I am Errol Fox and with me today is [00:22] >> Victory Brown and we are speaking to [00:25] Lucas who is head of partnerships for [00:28] Drips Network. Lucas is bringing more [00:31] than 10 years of experience working in [00:34] early stage startups. His primary focus [00:36] at Drips has been on achieving the [00:39] company's vision of making open-source [00:41] software projects and maintainers [00:43] financially sustainable. Oh, a dream. by [00:47] strategically aligning them with the [00:49] needs of funders. Lucas is responsible [00:52] for leading all goto market strategies [00:55] for drips, interacting with ecosystems, [00:58] funders, and communities. This results [01:00] in partnerships with missional aligned [01:02] ecosystems such as Filecoin, ENS, [01:06] Scroll, UNICEF, and the EF. Hey, Lucas, [01:10] can you tell us a little bit more about [01:11] what doing partnerships for Drips [01:14] networks entails? Yeah, sure. So, as I [01:17] was saying before, I'm not usually asked [01:20] questions. I ask other people questions [01:22] to bring money into open source. [01:26] So, yeah, a lot of my work is around [01:30] talking to different ecosystem, [01:31] understanding what they want to fund in [01:33] open source and find ways in which our [01:36] protocol and products that we build on [01:39] top of that can service some of those [01:42] needs. [01:43] So, what are the most common questions [01:46] that you're asking funders? Or correct [01:48] me if I'm not using the right words, but [01:51] what are the most common questions or [01:53] topics that you end up having with these [01:56] funders for supporting open source [01:59] projects and the ecosystems that you're [02:01] funding for? [02:02] >> Yeah, that's a great question. So, [02:04] actually it starts before talking to the [02:06] funders and understanding if they have [02:08] done some work or some funding around [02:11] open source. So whenever we find some of [02:14] that information, we try to see who's [02:16] the one talking about it or who's behind [02:18] those things. So those people tend to be [02:21] more aligned with funding open source [02:23] right in that specific ecosystem. So [02:26] once we talk with these people, we try [02:29] to understand how funding those [02:31] open-source repositories or public goods [02:35] came about, why they do it, how does it [02:38] align with their strategy and then from [02:41] there we try to build and talk a little [02:42] bit about our primitive is our protocol [02:46] and how we did things with other [02:47] ecosystems that might inspire them. [02:50] >> Thank you Luka. Earl in your experience [02:54] with speaking to open source funders, [02:56] what are the kind of projects that [02:57] you've seen most funders being [02:59] interested in in the open source space? [03:02] Can you highlight some of them? [03:04] >> Yeah, for sure. So, typically the [03:06] projects that are more visible [03:10] are not like down the tree in their [03:12] dependency tree. So sometimes very [03:15] famous libraries like ethosjs [03:18] or webm for example, open zeppelin are [03:21] the ones that you hear the most. But [03:24] that's what we are trying to do at [03:25] drips. You can fund those but then [03:29] you're allowing those dependencies to [03:32] fund their dependencies. [03:34] So it doesn't necessarily mean that the [03:38] funer needs to understand or needs to [03:40] fund all their critical dependencies [03:42] just the ones they think are the most [03:43] critical and then they pass the ball to [03:47] those dependencies who can pass it on [03:50] through their dependencies. That's how [03:51] we are building a dependency graph. [03:54] >> Okay. So do you think this is more from [03:57] the fun side if it's personal interest [04:00] or based on what these projects [04:02] specifically interested in giving back [04:04] to communities? [04:06] I think we need to distinguish [04:09] what people want which is sometimes to [04:12] give back and what an ecosystem might [04:15] need right so when I talk to people like [04:17] behind ecosystems it's people and they [04:20] are highly aligned with what we do but [04:23] sometimes the ecosystem or to sell these [04:24] ideas internally you need to align with [04:28] different things one of those things [04:30] might be to attract open source into [04:32] their ecosystem right and that's very [04:34] legitimate another one could [04:36] find your dependencies like that there [04:39] are no security issues. If one of those [04:41] dependencies get compromised all the [04:43] dependency tree will get compromised and [04:46] another one it might be virtue signaling [04:48] for them or using as a marketing tool [04:50] right I'm funding dependencies look we [04:54] are no contribution will go unrecognized [04:56] so it all works if they fund open source [05:00] in my opinion [05:02] >> I think I realized as you were talking [05:04] maybe why drips network is called drips [05:07] because it's like the money dripping [05:09] down through the dependency chain as [05:11] well. So, I had like a aha moment about [05:13] maybe how you're named, but I'm really [05:16] curious speaking on behalf of maybe some [05:19] of the listeners of this podcast that [05:20] are running some of these critical [05:22] dependencies or some of these projects [05:25] that are harder to see and that maybe [05:27] don't get this effect of being supported [05:30] by what dependencies they are for. As [05:34] far as strategic things that open source [05:37] projects can do to highlight themselves [05:41] for funding, what would you advise a [05:44] open source project to do strategically [05:47] in order to be more visible, more [05:50] fundable, more kind of more there ready [05:53] to receive what they need? [05:55] >> Well, I think there are two parts to [05:57] that answer. In my work with talking and [06:01] working with maintainers from these [06:04] projects, I realized that a lot of them [06:07] are not in for the money and some of [06:10] them are not even comfortable talking [06:11] about money. Some others are, [06:14] but then outside from that they are [06:17] builders. They don't want to market [06:19] themselves and they don't feel [06:21] comfortable marketing themselves. So [06:23] there are some strategies they can apply [06:25] to market like having a discord or like [06:28] some sort of community, [06:30] adding certain logos into their website [06:33] or into their repo, giving priority to [06:37] certain funders. But in my experience, [06:40] they don't want to do that because this [06:42] is not why they are in for. [06:45] That's the problem we are trying to [06:47] solve. You're drip list. Anyone can fund [06:50] you. You would also signal what's [06:52] important to you. What percentage goes [06:54] to the maintainer? What percentage can [06:56] go to their dependencies or to other [06:58] contributors? And then our work is to [07:02] find funders as well. [07:05] We've been successful at it. I think we [07:07] can do a better job and I think there is [07:09] a long way to go into offering different [07:12] solutions for funders in order to fund [07:15] their dependencies or the open-source [07:17] developers projects in their ecosystems. [07:21] This is why we are building what we call [07:23] the super app for funding open-source [07:26] builders. So that targets to a lot of [07:29] the different initiatives that an [07:31] ecosystem might want to run like [07:33] retroactive funding, direct grants, [07:36] recurring bounties, dependency funding, [07:39] right? So those experiences try to [07:42] tailor to different ecosystems depending [07:45] on what they want to do, what they want [07:47] to achieve. [07:50] Is there anything that you think that [07:52] package registries could do differently [07:55] specifically for highlighting what the [07:58] needs might be for specific open source [08:00] packages? Is there anything that you [08:02] would really love for a package registry [08:04] like npm or ruby gems or Pippi to like [08:08] do in order to make this more visible? [08:12] >> Yeah, there are certain things that they [08:14] can do. So something that we launched [08:16] for example is a fund me button on their [08:20] GitHub repository but there is buy me a [08:22] coffee and other things they can do [08:24] right GitHub sponsors the cool thing [08:27] about that is that we don't take any [08:28] cuts and it's crypto so all the money [08:31] goes to them [08:33] so that's one of the things they can do [08:35] and these people go to a lot of [08:37] conferences they are part of communities [08:39] so just highlighting that there is a way [08:43] for them to get funding and that that [08:45] funding will go to them because with [08:48] drips you're funding the repository [08:50] itself. You don't need to know who's [08:53] behind the repo. So you can fund that [08:56] thing that you use and then they can [08:58] signal where is the money going and that [09:02] the money is going somewhere because [09:03] it's all on chain. So that's my [09:07] suggestion. But to me it's always about [09:09] like for them to keep building and us [09:12] making it easier for them to showcase [09:15] without the feeling that they are [09:17] marketers. power. [09:19] >> I remember speaking to Sona Bonewald at [09:23] the le at one point and marketing was [09:27] something that we used to talk about a [09:28] lot about how [09:30] a lot of open source projects are not [09:33] like allergic to marketing but it feels [09:36] like anti-open source in a way because [09:38] it feels proprietary commercial but that [09:42] really marketing is about communication. [09:45] It's about how you get out there, how [09:46] you tell people about what you're doing [09:48] and why it's important. The thought that [09:50] if you build something and people will [09:52] just find out is kind of not always [09:55] right. Right. You need to tell people [09:56] and get out there and do stuff. [09:59] >> Just brainstorming. There are many [10:01] things they could be doing. And maybe [10:04] something we need to do as a community [10:06] is to have some sort of like marketing [10:09] department where we go around different [10:12] projects part of the community and help [10:14] them market in different ways. This way [10:17] they don't feel they are just selling [10:19] their soul to corporations. [10:22] But yeah, that's just one idea. There [10:24] are probably thousands of others. [10:27] So similarly to the question that I [10:29] asked about what package registries [10:30] could do or other people can do. I'm [10:32] thinking about what funders could [10:35] proactively do. So I know from my [10:39] experience the funders that I'm involved [10:41] with kind of really struggle to [10:43] understand why a dependency is really [10:46] important. Maybe it's again about that [10:49] communication effort about understanding [10:51] why a dependency is critical. But what [10:54] kind of proactive things have funders [10:57] done or that you talk about with funders [11:01] in order to better understand the [11:03] ecosystem? Is there places where you [11:04] advise, okay, this is where you need to [11:06] go to better understand what's happening [11:08] here? Is there anything that the [11:10] Thunders can be doing proactively to [11:13] better understand how they can support [11:14] open source and critical digital [11:16] infrastructure? Right. [11:18] >> That's a really good point. Like what [11:20] can they be doing? What can funders be [11:22] doing in order to understand the value [11:25] of open source? I think [11:29] the most important thing for a funer to [11:31] do is to talk to the developers [11:36] within those companies projects because [11:39] the developers are the ones who are the [11:41] closest to the code. And if you ask [11:43] pretty much any developer and you give [11:44] them 10 to 15 minutes, they will come up [11:48] with their top five to 10 critical [11:50] dependencies. and why they are [11:51] important. You just ask them if you took [11:54] one of these outs, one of these [11:56] dependencies out. [11:58] What would happen if we forked this and [12:01] we needed to maintain this? How many [12:03] people would need to work on something [12:05] like this? And I think that will bring [12:09] realization [12:11] into the funders on why essentially it's [12:14] important to fund their dependencies. [12:16] Aside from what we discussed before, [12:19] security issues, attracting developers [12:22] and many other things that are out [12:24] there, but I think the best way to [12:26] convince someone is from within and not [12:28] from outside. [12:30] >> So on this note, I think you wrote [12:32] something in our prep document which is [12:33] about how funding open source needs to [12:36] move out of the realm of philanthropy [12:38] and crisis management. This makes me [12:41] think a lot about when the pandemic [12:43] started and all of a sudden a lot of [12:45] revenue that some foundations had [12:48] through events was suddenly not there [12:50] anymore and a lot of the foundations [12:53] were trying to find ways to fund what [12:56] they do when it was originally through [12:59] ticketed events or other things that [13:00] were in person and co made us all go [13:03] online rightly so to avoid infection. [13:07] I'm really curious to hear more about [13:09] your thoughts around how funding open [13:12] source can move out of that philanthropy [13:15] crisis management process and what maybe [13:19] the web 3 blockchain crypto space cuz [13:22] we're here at Devcon with the Ethereum [13:24] Foundation. What that space offers for [13:27] that challenge? [13:29] >> Well, I can start with the last part. [13:31] Why web 3? It's one of the most [13:35] open-source ecosystems out there, right? [13:37] It's modular. It's part of the ethos. [13:39] Even though there are many projects that [13:40] are not open source, I think we start [13:43] from there. And then the second part [13:45] about web 3 is that most of it are [13:47] ecosystems and ecosystems are open for [13:51] builders to come in and write open [13:54] source code in the languages that these [13:56] ecosystems want using the libraries [13:58] these ecosystems want them to use. So [14:01] yeah, I think web 3 is a very [14:04] opensourced driven ecosystem because the [14:08] different blockchains are typically open [14:10] source and they try to attract builders [14:13] and give them grants if they build in [14:15] the open. So how can we move out of the [14:18] philanthropy kind of discourse for [14:21] funding open source? It's hard work [14:24] because it's around [14:26] aligning with what they want to do and [14:29] offering a solution for that in a way [14:32] that [14:34] doesn't extract money that goes to the [14:37] open source builders because there are [14:39] solutions to fund open source but I [14:41] think they're very extractive. [14:43] So I think that's the hard work and [14:46] sometimes is [14:48] being a bit more pragmatic around what [14:51] we build for funders to fund [14:54] instead of [14:57] to um how can I put this? Yeah. purist [15:01] around open source, right? We need to [15:03] find a middle point where the funer is [15:07] interested [15:09] and the open source builder gets [15:12] benefited and can be rewarded for their [15:14] work. I think that's what we've been [15:16] doing at Drips really well is finding [15:18] that middle ground. [15:19] >> Yeah. Just to build on what you just [15:22] said about OSS maintenance and all, how [15:25] can we make being an OSS maintainer or [15:30] builder like a viable career in this [15:32] ecosystem and the way things are right [15:34] now [15:36] >> to make open source maintenance a viable [15:39] career. [15:39] >> Yeah, [15:40] >> that's our core. How can we do that? So [15:45] we are building solutions for different [15:48] stages of their maintenance or building [15:52] path. So we started with dependency [15:55] funding and dependency funding typically [15:57] funds critical dependencies and those [16:00] that are like widely used like ethersjs [16:04] right but then we launch direct grants [16:08] or we are launching direct grants. So [16:10] that's the traditional grant process. [16:12] Retroactive grants which is projects in [16:16] an ecosystem that may have built [16:18] something and then badge holders or a [16:22] jury decides what the impact is and they [16:24] reward them for that. And lastly, we [16:27] just launched Drip's wave, which is [16:30] bounties for open source builders. And [16:32] those are typically just starting out [16:34] and maybe they don't consider themselves [16:36] even open source builders, but [16:38] they start seeing the value contributing [16:40] in the open and getting rewarded for [16:42] that. [16:43] >> Yeah. So, what I'm hearing is there's [16:45] some form of hierarchy on how you're [16:48] helping builders build. So even at the [16:50] lowest level it's like even as a [16:52] contributor you're being recognized and [16:55] your contribution and that contribution [16:58] needs some form of recognition which [16:59] makes you want to do more build more and [17:02] then you keep growing on that. Yeah, [17:04] that's really wonderful. [17:05] >> Exactly. And a lot of these things are [17:07] very interesting for funders. [17:09] >> Yeah, [17:09] >> retroactive funding. Look at optimism. [17:11] Look at filecoin direct grants. Who [17:14] doesn't do a direct grant? And bounties. [17:17] A lot of ecosystems have bounty [17:20] programs. What we're doing now is [17:23] running them recurringly every month in [17:26] a way that opensource builders can [17:28] continue sharpening their skills with [17:29] real life repositories and then if code [17:32] gets merged they can also get funding [17:34] for that. Oh, that's really beautiful [17:36] because I think one of the speakers [17:38] mentioned something around how in the [17:40] web 3 space they fund excitement and [17:43] that makes people want to do more in the [17:46] open source space they fund people who [17:50] already have this ability. So I think [17:52] that's kind of like the differences that [17:54] I'm noticing here which is really [17:56] awesome. [17:57] >> And I see something that gets me excited [18:00] is we are also working with UNICEF on [18:04] essentially giving a funding mechanism [18:05] for their DPGs digital public goods. [18:09] >> Yeah, [18:09] >> we're launching our first trip place [18:11] with five of their most um used [18:15] repositories. [18:16] So anyone can fund them. But something [18:18] that is exciting for me personally is [18:20] that they work with lots of governments [18:23] that are trying [18:25] that their youth get into tech [18:28] governments in the global south. The [18:30] first one that comes to mind is Sierra [18:32] Leon. And we haven't done anything yet [18:36] with those governments and UNICEF, but [18:38] it's an idea for them to start coming [18:41] into these open source bounties, [18:44] learn skills, apply them in real life, [18:46] get some funding, build their portfolio, [18:48] and then potentially build a career that [18:51] is very good for them. [18:52] >> I love this. And we haven't got much [18:54] time left to delve more into this, but [18:56] maybe another time we can have a longer [18:58] conversation. I know some people that [19:00] are skeptical about bounties. They're [19:02] like, "Oh, it doesn't encourage [19:04] long-term whatever contribution, but I [19:07] see the benefits of bounties mean that [19:10] you don't get locked into like grant [19:12] deliverables and reporting." And not [19:14] everyone wants to do that, right? Like [19:16] not everyone wants to receive a grant [19:18] and have to be sign a very scary [19:21] contract to participate in open source [19:24] and be compensated. And bounties I see [19:27] as like a way of really encouraging a [19:31] soft landing into open-source and also [19:35] recognizing the value of all kinds of [19:37] contributions, not just huge big grantf [19:41] funed feature developments or whatever [19:43] or security builds and things like that. [19:46] And it does also mean that you can [19:48] distribute across more people in the [19:51] ecosystem. So it's really exciting to [19:52] hear about. Lucas, where can people find [19:56] you on the internet to hear more about [19:58] what you have to say on these topics? [20:00] >> So, I guess X Twitter [20:03] is the number one. My handle is L U K F [20:08] A Luke FA and that's probably the best [20:11] way you can DM me. Then we can continue [20:14] our conversation on Signal, Telegram, or [20:17] even our Discord, Brits Discord, which [20:20] is open for everyone. [20:22] >> Awesome. And do you have a project that [20:23] you'd like to spotlight for us? A [20:25] project that's been meaningful for you [20:26] or something else? [20:28] >> I personally really like EthosJS and the [20:31] maintainer behind Rigmu. I'm a big fan [20:33] of Rigmu. He also created Firefly, a [20:37] wallet that I think costs $1. He's been [20:40] giving them away, a hard wallet. So, [20:44] everyone uses Ether's JS, but I really [20:49] appreciate Rick's way of doing things [20:52] and that he managed to become a [20:55] full-time open-source maintainer, [20:57] builder, and that's probably the one I [21:00] want to highlight. [21:01] >> Amazing. And with that, I'll say thank [21:02] you very much, Lucas, for speaking to [21:04] us. And, uh, thank you listeners for [21:06] listening. [21:08] >> Thank you very much. [21:09] >> Thank you. ## Highlights - understanding what they want to fund in open source and find ways in which our protocol and products that we build on top of that can service some of those needs. So, what are the most common questions that you're asking funders? Or correct me if I'm not using the right words, but what are the most common questions or topics that you end up having with these funders for supporting open source projects and the ecosystems that you're ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01khf99x2a0ehk7j2ckcz1f06f)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - funding for? >> Yeah, that's a great question. So, actually it starts before talking to the funders and understanding if they have done some work or some funding around open source. So whenever we find some of that information, we try to see who's the one talking about it or who's behind those things. So those people tend to be more aligned with funding open source right in that specific ecosystem. So once we talk with these people, we try to understand how funding those ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01khf99x2e3hyzssyxtebsxq9q)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - find funders as well. We've been successful at it. I think we can do a better job and I think there is a long way to go into offering different solutions for funders in order to fund their dependencies or the open-source developers projects in their ecosystems. This is why we are building what we call the super app for funding open-source builders. So that targets to a lot of the different initiatives that an ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01khf99x2ysysnsdgy3yeth83w)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted ## New Highlights added 2026-02-28 at 7:49 PM - understanding what they want to fund in open source and find ways in which our protocol and products that we build on top of that can service some of those needs. So, what are the most common questions that you're asking funders? Or correct me if I'm not using the right words, but what are the most common questions or topics that you end up having with these funders for supporting open source projects and the ecosystems that you're ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01khf99x2a0ehk7j2ckcz1f06f)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - funding for? >> Yeah, that's a great question. So, actually it starts before talking to the funders and understanding if they have done some work or some funding around open source. So whenever we find some of that information, we try to see who's the one talking about it or who's behind those things. So those people tend to be more aligned with funding open source right in that specific ecosystem. So once we talk with these people, we try to understand how funding those ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01khf99x2e3hyzssyxtebsxq9q)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - find funders as well. We've been successful at it. I think we can do a better job and I think there is a long way to go into offering different solutions for funders in order to fund their dependencies or the open-source developers projects in their ecosystems. This is why we are building what we call the super app for funding open-source builders. So that targets to a lot of the different initiatives that an ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01khf99x2ysysnsdgy3yeth83w)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted