Everything Wrong With the Passion Translation in Colossians

Everything Wrong With the Passion Translation in Colossians ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/7OfUZyCOJi4/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [Everything Wrong With the Passion Translation in Colossians](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OfUZyCOJi4) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [biblical-translation, passion-translation, aramaic-claims] > author: Mike Winger > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OfUZyCOJi4 > date created: {{date:YYYY-MM-DD}} {{time:HH:mm}} > > # 🏷️ Title: Everything Wrong With The Passion Translation in Colossians >  ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ## 📝 Summary - Mike Winger commissioned scholars to review The Passion Translation (TPT), arguing it's not actually a translation but a highly interpretive paraphrase with serious theological problems - Alex Hewittson (M.Div student) and Dr. Brad Bittner (Westminster Seminary professor) analyzed TPT's rendering of Colossians, finding massive expansions, inconsistent translations, and unsupported aramaic source claims - Brian Simmons claims divine revelation and access to secret aramaic texts that supposedly predate Greek manuscripts, but scholars find no evidence for these aramaic originals - Key findings: TPT is 40% longer than standard translations, translates identical Greek phrases inconsistently, and adds entire sentences not present in the original text - The translation promotes what critics call "gnostic-style" claims about hidden knowledge while making one translator very wealthy ## 📖 Main Content ### Translation Philosophy Problems The Passion Translation claims to balance literal meaning with modern accessibility, but scholars demonstrate it fails to adhere to its own stated translation strategy. When back-translated to Greek, TPT would be "unrecognizable" compared to the original manuscripts, indicating fundamental translation failures. ### Aramaic Source Text Claims Brian Simmons repeatedly claims that: - 90% of biblical interpretation problems disappear with "aramaic texts" - Recent scholarship has discovered that virtually all New Testament books were originally written in Aramaic - He has supernatural access to these aramaic originals through divine revelation However, scholars clarify that: - No aramaic manuscripts of New Testament books exist - All available New Testament manuscripts are in Greek - The "aramaic texts" Simmons references appear to be later Syriac translations (2nd-7th century) - First-century Palestine was multilingual, with Greek being the lingua franca for written documents ### Length and Expansion Issues Comparative word counts reveal TPT's excessive expansions: - Standard translations: 2,100-2,200 words for Colossians - Passion Translation: 2,900 words (40% longer) - Single verses expanded from 17 words to 42 words in some cases ### Translation Inconsistencies Paul's standard greeting formula appears identically in Greek across five epistles, yet TPT renders each differently: - "Grace to you and peace" becomes various combinations like "riches of favor," "undeserved favor releasing grace," etc. - This indicates lack of systematic translation methodology ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:03:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OfUZyCOJi4&t=192) Winger's motivation - Hired multiple scholars to provide unbiased academic review - Claims TPT pushes sectarian theology and puts ideas into scripture that aren't there - Notes Brian Simmons lacks proper educational credentials for biblical translation #### ⏱️ [00:08:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OfUZyCOJi4&t=510) Simmons' supernatural claims - Claims God gave him "downloads" and "spirit of revelation" - Says he discovered "secrets" and "mysteries" in biblical texts - Promises TPT will bring revival and fresh revelation #### ⏱️ [00:15:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OfUZyCOJi4&t=945) Translation spectrum explanation - Literal translations (NASB) vs. dynamic equivalents (NIV) vs. paraphrases (The Message) - TPT goes beyond paraphrase into commentary territory - Most good translations done by large teams of qualified scholars over many years #### ⏱️ [00:22:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OfUZyCOJi4&t=1338) Aramaic text problems - Simmons references "aramaic" 23 times in Colossians footnotes alone - Claims recent scholarship discovered aramaic originals behind Greek manuscripts - Scholars confirm this is "bonkers" and "just not true" #### ⏱️ [00:35:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OfUZyCOJi4&t=2142) Jesus's last words claim - Simmons claims Jesus said "kala" (aramaic for "bride") not "tetelestai" (Greek for "it is finished") - Promotes this as hidden revelation that will "change your life" - Scholars note this is linguistically false and doctrinally problematic #### ⏱️ [00:45:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OfUZyCOJi4&t=2715) Love language claims - Simmons calls aramaic/hebrew "god's love language" - Claims other translations miss divine emotional content - Scholars note this reflects gnostic-style claims about hidden knowledge - Contradicts biblical testimony about God's multiple attributes (justice, holiness, etc.) ## 📚 References - [Alex Hewittson's paper on TPT Colossians](link) - [Westminster Seminary California faculty pages](link) - [Mike Winger's Passion Project playlist](link) - Academic sources on first-century multilingualism - Syriac manuscript traditions research ## 🗣️ Paraphrase A YouTube biblical scholar hired academics to systematically review The Passion Translation's rendering of Colossians, finding it fails basic translation standards. The translator claims divine revelation and access to secret aramaic texts, but scholars confirm no such aramaic New Testament manuscripts exist. Instead of faithful translation, TPT adds extensive interpretive material, expanding the text by 40% while inconsistently handling identical Greek phrases. The work promotes questionable theological claims about hidden biblical knowledge while enriching its primary translator through millions of sales to unsuspecting Christians. ## 📰 Newsletter **Translation Troubles**: Ever wondered if that trendy new Bible translation is legit? A fascinating deep-dive into The Passion Translation reveals why scholarly review matters for Scripture. When claims about "secret aramaic texts" and "divine downloads" meet actual manuscript evidence, the results aren't pretty. Essential viewing for anyone who cares about faithful Bible translation—plus great insights into how real translation work happens. The academic papers are freely available, making this a goldmine for anyone interested in textual criticism and translation philosophy. ## ✅ Action Items #### Community - Share scholarly reviews with pastors and church leaders who may encounter TPT recommendations - Develop educational materials explaining difference between translation and paraphrase - Create comparative charts showing TPT expansions vs. standard translations #### WordPress - Documentation: Create guides explaining manuscript traditions and translation methodologies - Community: Host discussions on discernment practices for biblical resources - Training: Develop curricula for evaluating religious texts and claims #### The WPCC - Programs: Fund initiatives promoting biblical literacy and critical thinking skills - Projects: Support development of educational resources about translation principles ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Churches that adopt TPT will experience theological drift toward hyper-charismatic distinctives - Readers comparing TPT with standard translations will notice significant interpretive differences - Academic scrutiny of TPT will eventually limit its adoption in mainstream evangelical contexts - Simmons' claims about aramaic sources can be definitively refuted through manuscript evidence - TPT's popularity correlates with biblical illiteracy and desire for "fresh revelation" ### 📊 Methodology - Comparative translation analysis using word count metrics - Linguistic analysis of claimed aramaic sources and actual manuscript traditions - Survey of seminary professors and biblical language experts - Content analysis of TPT promotional materials vs. actual translation practices ### ❓ Questions - How do mainstream publishers justify marketing TPT as a "translation"? - What percentage of TPT readers are aware of the scholarly criticisms? - How do other charismatic biblical scholars view Simmons' claims? - What legal or ethical standards apply to biblical translation marketing? ### 🔮 Future Research - Systematic analysis of TPT's theological distinctives across all published books - Investigation of TPT's influence on sermon content and church doctrine - Study of consumer decision-making in biblical translation selection - Analysis of TPT's marketing strategies and target demographics ### 💡 Implications - **Education**: Need for improved biblical literacy programs in churches - **Practice**: Importance of peer review and team-based translation approaches - **Policy**: Potential need for truth-in-advertising standards for religious texts - **Security**: Risks of theological manipulation through translation distortion ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: High school to early college (15-16 grade level using Flesch-Kincaid) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Comparative word count tables, translation spectrum diagrams - Improve: Manuscript timeline graphics, side-by-side text comparisons, flowcharts of translation process #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Video format with multiple speakers, quoted audio from Simmons - Improve: Podcast-style discussion segments, audio examples of different translations #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear definitions of translation terminology, repeated key concepts - Improve: Glossary of technical terms, more analogies explaining translation principles #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Academic paper reviews as concrete examples - Improve: Interactive comparison tools, hands-on translation exercises #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Systematic categorization of problems, numbered observations - Improve: Decision trees for translation evaluation, statistical analysis charts #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Panel discussion format, multiple expert perspectives - Improve: Group discussion guides, peer review exercises #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Detailed academic papers for independent study - Improve: Self-assessment checklists, personal reflection prompts #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Historical context about manuscript traditions - Improve: Timeline of biblical text preservation, cultural environment examples ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, descriptive video titles - Improve: More detailed alt text for visual tables, ARIA labels for complex data #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard YouTube controls, linked resources - Improve: Skip links for video segments, keyboard shortcuts documentation #### Contrast and readability - Present: High contrast video player, clear audio - Improve: Closed captioning accuracy review, color-blind friendly charts #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive video player, scalable text descriptions - Improve: Mobile-optimized table views, zoom-friendly layouts #### Media and captions - Present: Auto-generated YouTube captions - Improve: Professional captioning, downloadable transcripts #### Forms and interactions - Present: Standard video controls - Improve: Accessible comment moderation, clear interaction guidelines #### Standards reference - Maps to WCAG 2.2 AA for multimedia content accessibility requirements ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Focus on English-language translation issues - Improve: Examples from other language translation traditions, global manuscript evidence #### Inclusive language - Present: Academic terminology with explanations - Improve: Plain language summaries, avoid insider jargon #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Structured presentation, clear sections - Improve: Visual organization aids, processing time accommodation #### Representation - Present: Male-dominated academic panel - Improve: Diverse scholarly perspectives, female biblical scholars' input #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful tone toward translation concerns - Improve: Content warnings about theological controversy, supportive community guidelines ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - **Manuscript evidence analysis**: Systematic comparison of available texts demonstrates absence of claimed aramaic sources - **Quantitative translation analysis**: Word count data and inconsistency examples provide measurable evidence of problems - **Expert consensus verification**: Multiple qualified scholars independently reach similar conclusions #### Fallacies - **Appeal to special revelation**: Simmons claims divine downloads bypass normal scholarly verification methods - **False novelty claims**: Assertion that recent scholarship discovered aramaic primacy contradicts established consensus - **Moving the goalposts**: When pressed on aramaic sources, defenders might shift to "spiritual truth" rather than textual accuracy #### Tone of voice - **Academic but accessible**: Maintains scholarly rigor while explaining technical concepts for general audience - **Concerned pastoral care**: Emphasizes protection of believers rather than mere academic criticism ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - **Deny**: Simmons doesn't directly engage scholarly criticisms, instead promotes continued divine revelation claims - **Attack**: Implies traditional scholars lack spiritual insight and supernatural revelation access - **Reverse victim/offender**: Positions himself as bringing restoration to a church "robbed" of true biblical meaning for 2000 years - **Emotional manipulation**: Uses phrases like "this will change your life forever" to bypass critical thinking ## 🎯 Conclusion The systematic scholarly review of The Passion Translation reveals fundamental failures in translation methodology, unsupported source text claims, and concerning patterns of theological manipulation. Rather than providing fresh biblical insight, TPT appears to function as an interpretive commentary disguised as translation, potentially misleading sincere believers who trust its accuracy. The academic consensus demonstrates the importance of peer review, qualified translators, and transparent methodology in biblical translation work. Christians seeking reliable biblical texts should prioritize established translations produced by qualified teams over individualistic projects making extraordinary claims about divine revelation and secret sources. ## 🔄 Refactor Appendix — Everything Wrong With The Passion Translation in Colossians ### 📚 Literature Atoms (H3) #### Translation teams provide accountability that individual translators lack > [!quote] ID:rw_001 > Most of our good english translations are done by teams of really large teams of truly excellent scholars across the world different cultures different backgrounds and training but all highly qualified **Context & use**: - Contrasted with Brian Simmons as sole translator of TPT - Explains why established translations are generally reliable **Tags**: #xref #biblical-scholarship **Highlight**: [view highlight](readwise://...)  #### Aramaic New Testament manuscripts do not exist for scholarly verification > [!quote] ID:rw_002 > There isn't there for colossians say our topic today uh an aramaic translation of colossians that i can pull off of any dusty shelf in this in this room it just isn't there **Context & use**: - Dr. Bittner's direct refutation of Simmons' aramaic source claims - Central to debunking TPT's foundational premise **Tags**: #xref #manuscript-evidence **Highlight**: [view highlight](readwise://...)  #### Translation expansions beyond normal limits indicate interpretive addition rather than faithful rendering > [!quote] ID:rw_003 > 2900 words to translate colossians and the next highest is uh is the nasd with 2122 words so the passion translation is longer than that by nearly 40 percent **Context & use**: - Quantitative evidence of TPT's excessive expansions - Demonstrates departure from translation into commentary **Tags**: #xref #translation-methodology **Highlight**: [view highlight](readwise://...)  ### 🧠 Permanent Candidates (H4) #### Claims of divine revelation bypass normal scholarly accountability **Claim**: Religious translators who assert supernatural revelation for their work effectively place themselves beyond academic criticism and peer review. **Evidence pointer**: [[#Translation teams provide accountability that individual translators lack]] **Scope & conditions**: Applies when religious authority claims substitute for demonstrable expertise; breaks down when revelation claims can be factually verified **Links**: - [[Religious authority claims]] — because extends beyond biblical translation - [[Peer review processes]] — because contrasts with accountability mechanisms - [[Charismatic theology]] — because applies-in contexts emphasizing ongoing revelation  ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue - Investigate other "supernatural translation" claims throughout church history #fleeting #inbox - Research consumer psychology of biblical translation marketing #fleeting #inbox ### → Things 3 (max 2 actions) - [ ] Compare TPT sales figures with scholarly translation adoptions — church purchasing patterns #things - [ ] Create visual comparison chart of translation word counts for common passages #things --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] let me tell you why this matters so much [00:02] to me and why i've hired [00:03] a number of highly respected scholars to [00:05] review the passion translation [00:07] and then made their work their papers [00:08] and their interviews available for free [00:10] online [00:11] the passion translation is a bad [00:12] translation it is not even proper [00:14] to call it a translation it has more [00:16] issues than i can count it pushes [00:18] sectarian theology and puts ideas into [00:21] the bible that just [00:22] aren't there to start with it's [00:23] primarily the work of one man a guy [00:25] named brian simmons who doesn't seem to [00:27] have the proper education [00:28] or skills to be able to translate the [00:31] entire bible [00:32] well but brian simmons claims that god [00:34] has supernaturally given him the spirit [00:36] of revelation [00:37] and given him secrets of hebrew and [00:39] greek that he has put into his passion [00:40] bible now normally [00:41] weird and bad translations don't really [00:43] make it into your shelf at home or into [00:45] the bookstores or certainly aren't [00:46] recommended from pulpits [00:48] normally but because of the reckless and [00:51] unwise endorsing of the passion [00:52] translation by some high-profile [00:54] hyper-charismatic pastors [00:56] that's exactly what's happening i [00:57] thought something has to be done about [00:59] this [00:59] so i made a number of videos exposing [01:01] the passion translation trying to share [01:03] why i think this [01:04] is a bad translation even though i like [01:05] the esv and the nasb and the [01:07] new king james version i like the king [01:09] james version i mean i like [01:11] most of the available translations we [01:12] have nowadays but no not [01:14] this one still even with the videos and [01:16] the reviews i had done some people [01:18] questioned my motives or some people [01:19] wondered if maybe [01:20] it's kind of like a mike winger versus [01:22] brian simmons you know who do i believe [01:23] situation [01:24] so i hired a bunch of scholars to review [01:26] the passion translation [01:28] and present their work to you so you [01:29] could have an academic and as unbiased [01:31] as possible [01:32] review of the work that is what i've [01:34] called my passion project [01:35] and this is i honestly this is one of [01:38] the best videos we're gonna have in the [01:40] passion project [01:40] alex hewittson has written probably one [01:43] of the best papers we've had so far [01:44] it's so accessible and it really breaks [01:47] things down in a way that i think [01:48] everyone can totally comprehend [01:50] and follow alex gives lots of good [01:51] examples and he backs this up with [01:53] research and footnotes that you can [01:54] check for yourself now most the scholars [01:56] i've hired have been really sort of [01:58] well-known and highly respected people [02:00] who have a long list of [02:02] scholarly works behind them in their cv [02:04] but alex is actually a student still [02:05] he's getting his masters of divinity at [02:07] westminster seminary here in california [02:09] alex's work is solid but since he [02:11] doesn't have the same credentials that [02:12] pretty much everybody has had who's been [02:14] part of this project [02:15] we've asked dr brad bittner to peer [02:17] review alex's work [02:18] and then to join in on the interview [02:20] which you're about to watch dr brad [02:21] bitter is the associate professor of new [02:23] testament at westminster seminary in [02:25] california [02:26] he has his phd in new testament and [02:27] early christianity [02:29] you can actually look at his academia [02:30] page down below where you can find some [02:31] of his work i've got tons of links down [02:33] there you're going to want to check out [02:34] i think that alex's work being the work [02:36] of a student still reviewed by [02:38] a legitimate scholar is evidence that [02:41] even a student who's careful and [02:43] thoughtful in their work can easily [02:44] disprove [02:45] the claims being made by brian simmons [02:47] about the passion translation the church [02:48] needs to be warned [02:50] about this wildly popular and very [02:52] wildly weird [02:53] bible translation in my opinion this is [02:55] a fraud that has been perpetrated on the [02:57] people of god [02:58] and it's making one man very rich and [03:01] famous [03:01] while changing god's word so much that [03:03] it's becoming the word of brian [03:05] simmons but i'm not just gonna make [03:06] claims here my passion project is meant [03:08] to prove it [03:09] and there's links below to all of the [03:11] interviews and all of the papers that [03:12] we've done in the passion project [03:13] including the paper that we're about to [03:14] look at right now written by alex [03:16] hewitson [03:16] and peer review by dr brad bittner it's [03:18] available for free in a link below also [03:20] there's timestamps you should see [03:22] chapters on this video and timestamps in [03:23] the description and in the first comment [03:25] the goal of that is to help you just [03:26] kind of navigate to the things that you [03:27] find most important and most relevant [03:29] for your understanding and i personally [03:31] ask that if you're interested in this [03:33] project and what i'm doing and you want [03:34] to help me spread the word that you [03:35] consider liking and sharing out this [03:37] video to other people [03:38] so that we can get information out there [03:40] about this translation and its [03:42] many many problems alex me and you go [03:45] back a little bit a little ways and uh [03:47] dr bittner you've [03:48] recently jumped on to do the peer [03:50] reviewing of all the work that alex has [03:52] done trying to review the passion [03:53] translation and i just want to thank [03:54] both of you so much [03:55] like sincerely sincerely thank you for [03:57] being part of this project it's [03:59] something i care a lot about and i think [04:01] i know alex cares a lot about it i think [04:03] dr bittner [04:03] you you're the back and forth we've had [04:05] exhibits that you also have a heart [04:08] not just about this translation but [04:09] about the people uh who are being [04:11] influenced [04:12] by the word of god as it goes out and so [04:15] let's [04:15] just start at the beginning um why did [04:17] you guys agree to do this project what [04:19] do you see [04:19] as the most important reason to be part [04:23] of it [04:23] well mike you know we've been in touch [04:25] for a while now i [04:26] i where i come from in south africa i've [04:29] been exposed to [04:30] the translate the passion translation a [04:32] bit and so i just [04:34] getting an understanding of how wide [04:36] reaching the effects have been globally [04:38] speaking [04:39] and my love and passion for god's word i [04:41] just really felt that it was [04:43] important to be part of something that [04:44] would look after guardians and integrity [04:48] yeah i feel like you're echoing my my [04:49] whole reason for doing the ridiculous [04:51] amount of work it is to [04:52] get all these all these people together [04:54] and do all the reviews of the passion [04:55] translation so thank you [04:57] and uh dr bittner what got you involved [04:59] it's really down to alex [05:01] um alex came to me he's in my [05:04] pastoral sorry my pauline epistles class [05:06] so alex is part of the pauline epistles [05:09] class this semester and uh of course in [05:12] in that we are working our way through [05:15] and got to [05:15] a book like colossians and early on you [05:18] saw that coming and so stopped in and [05:20] asked me [05:21] if i'd heard about this passion [05:23] translation i hadn't [05:24] by name as it turned out but as he [05:27] described what it was to me i realized [05:29] that i had [05:30] talked to some people who had been [05:32] influenced by it in the past [05:33] and realized that if i had known about [05:36] it i would have been able to help them [05:38] in in better ways so i'm i also am [05:41] passionate about [05:42] getting good translations of god's [05:45] powerful word in people's hands and [05:46] helping them to [05:48] be able to discern what's good and [05:49] what's less good yeah well amen that's [05:52] that's exactly why this project's [05:53] happening is because so many people it's [05:55] like that in this it's as though in a [05:56] scholarly world [05:57] the passion translation flew under the [05:59] radar for the most part [06:00] but it's wildly popular amongst certain [06:03] i would say [06:04] hyper charismatic groups in particular [06:06] where it's just flying off the shelves [06:07] millions and millions of copies [06:09] so far and it's ramping up it seems so [06:12] um at least [06:13] facebook keeps trying to sell me more [06:15] more of the same ones [06:16] so what was your approach alex to uh to [06:19] reviewing colossians in the passion [06:20] translation [06:22] so my my thought was let me translate [06:25] colossians from scratch [06:27] uh not not for publication as [06:30] as a sold bible but just for the [06:32] purposes of the review [06:34] so i worked through uh every verse the [06:36] whole of the book [06:37] working through and then and taking [06:38] notes on major grammatical features [06:41] certain theological themes and power and [06:44] comparing it to what simmons did in his [06:46] translation [06:46] and then aggregating all that data and [06:49] that's what you'll be able to see in the [06:50] paper that you'll put up [06:52] is there's just a condensation of all of [06:55] those observations [06:56] and i really thought the way the best [06:58] way to do it would translate the whole [06:59] thing [07:01] yeah and i want the audience to know [07:02] that um what what alex has done is [07:04] probably put more time into his paper [07:06] than anybody else has not [07:08] that's a a brag on alex more than [07:10] anything else it's not a slight other [07:11] guys did the job [07:12] but alex actually made his own [07:13] translation of the entire book of [07:14] colossians just as a tool [07:16] for his own research and his use of uh [07:20] of going through the passion translation [07:21] so i'm grateful for that i i think the [07:23] end result is this is [07:24] probably the most functionally useful of [07:27] all the papers we've had in the passion [07:29] project so far [07:30] i think it's really going to just [07:31] connect with people and really make [07:33] things obvious to them [07:34] that need to be obvious because i'm [07:35] making wild claims okay [07:37] i'm saying things brian simmons is [07:40] making wild claims [07:41] brian simmons is saying things he's [07:43] claiming that god spoke to him that god [07:44] gave him special supernatural revelation [07:46] secrets of hebrew and greek he's [07:48] unlocking the bible for us and special [07:50] in new ways it's going to bring revival [07:52] it wasn't a dream it was a wonderful [07:54] encounter that i had two in the morning [07:56] and upstairs bedroom where [07:59] the one i love came and and gave me this [08:02] commission [08:02] to do the translation process he [08:05] breathed on me [08:06] so that i would do the project and i [08:08] felt [08:10] downloads coming instantly i received [08:12] downloads it was like [08:14] i got a chip put inside of me i got a [08:17] connection [08:17] inside of me to hear him better to [08:20] understand the scriptures better and [08:23] hopefully to translate [08:24] he promised that he would give me new [08:28] understanding and new fresh revelation [08:31] from his word [08:33] and immediately he gave me a download [08:36] immediately i began to receive a [08:39] supernatural download [08:42] of insight and revelation that has [08:44] continued to this day [08:46] i had a visitation and i was given the [08:48] commission by the lord [08:50] as he breathed on me and released me and [08:52] called me [08:53] to translate the bible i discovered and [08:56] uncovered so many mysteries and glory [08:58] realms in the book of psalms [09:00] it will take your breath away i believe [09:02] god gave me the key to the book of [09:04] proverbs [09:04] the lord showed me it's the homonymic [09:07] structure of hebrew is going to be the [09:09] key to understanding revelation in the [09:11] last days including the book of [09:12] revelation which [09:14] you haven't got yet honestly i'm mega [09:17] understating it [09:19] god really helped me do this translation [09:22] he promised that he would uh [09:24] give me secrets that had not been [09:26] disclosed [09:27] the secrets of the lord he's beginning [09:29] to share them with me [09:30] and i'd like to share them with you i've [09:32] made some discoveries i don't know who [09:33] to talk to [09:34] i mean i'm finding out all the secrets [09:36] and translating [09:38] every time i open the bible i get fresh [09:40] insight i [09:41] it speaks to me it goes beyond the mind [09:43] i i get [09:44] dreams and and revelation from from the [09:48] lord that is [09:49] clear and prophetic so [09:53] i think sid i believe i got baptized in [09:55] the spirit of revelation in that [09:57] library room of heaven and he's [09:59] revealing himself [10:00] in this hour like never before the word [10:02] of god is coming alive to us it's like [10:05] we're getting a brand new bible isn't it [10:07] and i'm suggesting that these things [10:09] aren't true and what [10:11] the work you're doing is putting uh the [10:13] scholarship and putting [10:14] the facts and the data and the evidence [10:16] behind [10:17] all of these things and i just i'm [10:19] really grateful for that so [10:21] um to get some perspective though on how [10:23] we should look at the passion [10:24] translation overall for those who want [10:25] to hear an informed [10:26] view on this can you briefly explain the [10:28] different types of translation varieties [10:30] that exist currently in the church [10:34] sure i can speak to that um [10:38] we are really blessed in our day and age [10:39] to have lots of great [10:41] options out there in english translation [10:44] and across other languages [10:46] but most of those would fall on a [10:48] spectrum so you've got on the one end [10:50] uh very literal translations and on the [10:53] other end what really aren't [10:54] translations anymore they would be [10:56] called paraphrases [10:57] almost deserve to be called commentary [11:00] and [11:00] some people might have heard uh for [11:02] example that the new international [11:04] version [11:05] falls somewhere in the middle of that [11:06] spectrum as a dynamic equivalent [11:09] translation that is they're looking at [11:10] the words in the original languages but [11:12] trying to bring the sense across [11:14] not just word for word or phrase for [11:16] phrase but in a way that maybe uses some [11:19] of the [11:19] idioms the ways of everyday speaking in [11:22] the in the target language [11:24] and another translation maybe like the [11:27] esb which some people use would be [11:29] slightly more literal the nasb [11:32] very very literal because they're taking [11:34] it word for word [11:36] and leaving the interpretation then up [11:38] to the reader [11:39] and the one who's doing some bible study [11:42] rather than doing that interpretation [11:43] for the reader so okay on that on that [11:46] spectrum on this sort of [11:48] sort of like and you could view it as a [11:50] spectrum you could kind of like label [11:51] translations and put them in [11:53] different sort of places approximately [11:55] on a spectrum there where would you put [11:56] the passion translation so people can [11:58] understand what kind of thing we're [11:59] dealing with here [12:00] yeah i think i think it's a misnomer to [12:02] be honest to call it a translation [12:04] it's uh we'll get into this perhaps with [12:07] alex's [12:08] good work on colossians but it's it's [12:11] all the way to this [12:12] end of a paraphrase so something like [12:15] the message which has been helpful to a [12:16] lot of people in recent decades [12:19] is a paraphrase but i think the passion [12:21] translation goes even beyond that at [12:23] many points [12:24] and it's really a commentary on the text [12:27] rather than translation [12:28] in several places that has been [12:31] something i've heard consistently from [12:32] almost everyone who works in the project [12:34] they go this isn't [12:35] this isn't a translation uh one scholar [12:38] did his [12:38] first draft review of the of the work [12:40] and i had to message him back and say [12:42] you uh you you did the review of a [12:45] paraphrase [12:46] but he says it's a translation and in [12:49] his work he's going on to say [12:50] look it's not only is it not a [12:52] translation it's not [12:53] even properly a paraphrase you have to [12:55] you have to sort of [12:56] add extra extra words it's it's [12:59] interpretive or [13:00] i think it was tremper longman who said [13:01] it was a highly highly highly [13:03] interpretive paraphrase [13:04] that it's uh like a targum was what he [13:06] related it to [13:07] would you agree with that assessment [13:10] absolutely i think that's right in some [13:12] ways [13:13] i wish i wish brian simmons had had [13:17] reserved a lot of what he put in the [13:19] so-called translation for [13:20] marginal notes you know if you wanted to [13:23] have a study bible for instance [13:25] with some commentary or some notes in [13:26] the margins at the bottom of the page [13:29] i think that would have been a much more [13:30] appropriate way to go [13:32] rather than calling the translation and [13:34] acting as though these are the [13:36] words in the original text yeah now help [13:39] our our audience anybody who might be [13:40] watching who's going to look at this [13:42] review and they don't really know [13:43] you gentlemen and they're like thinking [13:45] so are these guys just critical of lots [13:47] of translations [13:48] like is that their goal is just to tear [13:49] down the word of god like where are you [13:51] coming from here what's your attitude [13:52] towards translations even paraphrases in [13:54] general [13:56] i'm saying i we we're coming at this [13:59] from the angle of people who [14:01] have a tremendous love for the word of [14:03] god and [14:04] i i want to i'm very very careful to [14:07] ever say anything publicly in criticism [14:09] of translations because [14:11] most of our good english translations [14:13] are done by [14:14] teams of really large teams of truly [14:18] excellent scholars across the world [14:20] different cultures [14:22] different backgrounds and training but [14:24] all highly qualified and they [14:26] and they dedicate years and years and [14:28] years of careful study [14:30] that they bring to the table to make [14:31] these translations and so [14:33] the act of translating itself is a real [14:36] challenge [14:36] and so these people have thought very [14:38] carefully about [14:40] translation for decades have done so for [14:42] a reason [14:43] and so we don't want to undermine [14:45] people's confidence in the word of god [14:47] in any way [14:48] the english translations that we have [14:50] are highly reliable [14:51] really good quality we of course may [14:53] have some differences here and there [14:55] about how we might approach things [14:57] but that's not the same as saying we're [14:59] critical of [15:00] other translations as uh dr bernardi [15:02] said this isn't really a translation [15:05] which is why it deserves the level of [15:06] criticism that i think it should [15:09] yeah thank you for making that clear and [15:11] so in agreement with that my own studies [15:13] into translations i you know i was [15:14] raised up in sort of a king james only [15:16] ish kind of influenced environment and [15:19] when i started doing my own real [15:20] work on this and study on this i was [15:22] relieved to find out we have so many [15:24] good [15:24] and faithful translations and then i [15:26] could pick up the esv and the nasb [15:28] and i could i could i could read the niv [15:30] even believe it or not [15:32] and um and to know that all these are i [15:35] would consider these [15:36] generally reliable good translations and [15:38] yeah the passion translation is in a [15:39] different category altogether [15:41] and it's encouraging for people to [15:42] realize that this is not undermining [15:44] anything except for [15:46] just sharpening our ability to just hone [15:48] in on good translations [15:49] and discern them from other things and [15:52] so the passion of translation though um [15:54] it claims things you know the [15:55] publisher's website brian simmons he [15:56] goes around claiming lots of things [15:58] about the translation [15:59] and one of the things that they claim as [16:01] far as translation strategy and i'll [16:03] quote it now this is their claim they [16:04] say [16:05] the pastor translation's philosophy is [16:07] that the meaning of god's original [16:08] message to the world has priority over [16:10] its exact form which is why our goal is [16:12] to communicate the meaning of scripture [16:14] as clearly and naturally as possible in [16:15] modern english [16:16] brian and other reviewers have sought to [16:18] remain faithful to the original biblical [16:20] languages by preserving their literal [16:22] meaning yet flexible enough to convey [16:24] god's original message in a way [16:26] a modern english in the way modern [16:29] english speakers can understand [16:31] it's a balanced translation that tries [16:32] to hold both the words literal meaning [16:35] and original message in proper tension [16:37] resulting in an entirely new fiery [16:39] fresh translation of god's word now that [16:42] those seem in your paper you say these [16:44] are kind of standard for the most part [16:46] standard types of aims and goals [16:48] but your statement in your paper is [16:50] simmons does not adhere [16:52] to the stated translation strategy could [16:54] you explain that [16:56] yeah i think what you see if that was [16:58] the case is [17:00] his translation might have some [17:01] differences in different expressions [17:03] that he uses and so on but the [17:05] overall product would be comparable to [17:07] other english translations right [17:09] if he was really following through on [17:10] what he's talking about but his [17:12] translation [17:13] is so radically different from all the [17:15] other work that's been done by [17:17] scholars over centuries and the last [17:19] couple of decades [17:20] in particular producing a lot of our [17:22] version that really shows you that what [17:24] he's doing [17:25] isn't translated and i think another way [17:27] you could think about this is if we took [17:29] let's say the esb [17:31] and the niv and the nasb and some others [17:34] and we [17:35] translated it back into greek like we [17:38] did that as a project [17:39] right and compared those there would be [17:42] some there would be differences but [17:44] you'd be able to get a sense of the [17:46] real similarity in the end result if you [17:49] took [17:49] the passion translation simeon's work [17:51] and translated that back into greek and [17:53] then compared those two [17:55] translations of greek they would be [17:57] unrecognizable [17:58] for the most part and that just shows [18:00] you that what he's doing isn't really [18:02] translating at all [18:03] yeah yeah wow so i like that analogy i [18:06] think it's something i can grab onto [18:07] real easy [18:08] yeah when you you go from greek into [18:10] english well when you go from that same [18:12] english back into greek and it's [18:13] completely different [18:15] than the greek you started with [18:16] something happened along the way that [18:18] wasn't [18:18] wasn't a good idea so simmons has made [18:20] some really big claims [18:22] um and we're going to talk a little bit [18:23] here now about these claims the [18:24] publisher makes [18:25] open public claims that they've made [18:28] he's made claims about the source text [18:30] of his translation [18:31] some of these claims now these claims i [18:32] think go right over the head of average [18:33] people [18:34] uh not because people are unintelligent [18:36] they're intelligent they're just not [18:37] experienced [18:38] with this area and so he likes to say [18:42] that he's getting out these like [18:44] important source [18:45] texts he'll call them the aramaic he's [18:48] getting the aramaic [18:49] we're also incorporating some aramaic [18:52] which is always like it befuddles the [18:55] scholars why i've done this [18:57] 90 of the biblical problems you have [19:00] with understanding the text of the bible [19:02] 90 of them disappear with the aramaic [19:05] text [19:06] now as you're going back to as you said [19:07] the aramaic and the greek that way did [19:10] you have concern that there may be some [19:11] scholars who look at this and [19:13] and may not agree with the basic premise [19:16] but we're bridging the aramaic text [19:18] with the greek text it's going to be [19:20] eye-popping it's going to look different [19:22] feel different sound [19:24] different and i i welcome and anticipate [19:27] a lot of scholars bringing their review [19:29] and bringing their comments to us [19:31] his footnotes are just chock full in [19:33] fact in colossians 23 times he [19:35] references the aramaic in just four [19:37] chapters of colossians in his footnotes [19:39] 23 times [19:40] can you walk us through this issue can [19:42] you explain like what is going on with [19:43] his [19:44] claims about aramaic um what is it he's [19:46] claiming about the source texts [19:48] and then this is what in your paper you [19:50] say is quote one of the most problematic [19:52] areas [19:53] of simmons translation [19:56] i think that's exactly right if i can [19:57] jump in maybe alex want to clarify but [20:01] and just to be clear i i you read [20:04] earlier the [20:05] the aims of translation committee [20:08] so-called [20:09] in publishing this and i resonate with [20:12] so many of those we want to have [20:14] the bible in people's hands we want to [20:16] have god's word [20:17] as accurately and understandably as [20:19] possible going out to as many people as [20:22] possible [20:24] but to to call this a translation and [20:27] then to claim [20:28] further that you're working on the basis [20:30] of [20:32] obscure and um in some ways [20:36] uh hidden texts that people haven't seen [20:38] before [20:40] just isn't the case and so when when [20:42] alex first put this in front of me [20:44] and uh and i looked at colossians as an [20:47] example [20:48] and how many times as you say he he says [20:50] he's working for the aramaic text [20:52] i i had to just stop and ask myself [20:55] what's he talking about [20:57] i don't i don't even know what he's [20:59] talking about yeah [21:01] now you're not alone in that i just want [21:02] the listeners to know what dr bittner [21:04] says i got from scholar after scholar [21:06] i think it was um dr blomberg who [21:09] reached out to me [21:10] and and just said i'm not able to write [21:12] this review yet [21:14] when he says aramaic what is he even [21:16] talking about like i don't know what he [21:17] means when he says aramaic texts [21:19] and it's because the claims that he's [21:21] making were so [21:23] strange and novel to the guys who'd [21:26] actually do this kind of work [21:28] that that should raise alarms to all of [21:30] us so uh let me [21:31] just really quick to lay this out for [21:33] our listeners the brian simmons in the [21:35] passion translation claims that he's [21:37] getting new insights into the word of [21:38] god [21:39] and he's doing it through finding [21:41] aramaic texts and he says jesus spoke [21:43] aramaic [21:44] the apostle spoke aramaic and he even [21:46] claims and [21:47] i'll ask you about this in a minute he [21:48] even claims that scholarship has [21:50] recently [21:50] discovered that all or [21:53] almost all of our new testament was [21:55] originally written in aramaic and it's [21:57] causing them to run to the dusty corners [21:58] of their libraries to pull out the [22:00] aramaic texts [22:01] but what what you're saying is there is [22:03] no aramaic text [22:05] is that right well if i want to be and i [22:08] do want to be as charitable as possible [22:11] i think what he's talking about when he [22:14] says aramaic [22:15] are syriac texts [22:18] so syriac is an ancient language that [22:21] is also known as eastern aramaic [22:24] sometimes or middle aramaic [22:27] and you do have some syriac translations [22:29] of the new testament which date from the [22:31] second [22:32] through to the seventh centuries i just [22:34] want to emphasize that [22:35] these are not texts which [22:38] predate or which are better quality than [22:41] the greek [22:41] manuscripts that we have but they've [22:44] been known of for quite a while [22:45] and there are people who specialize in [22:47] syriac [22:48] texts and textual criticism which is [22:51] just the scholarly way of talking about [22:53] how do we take all the ancient evidence [22:55] and put it together so that we've got [22:56] the best [22:57] possible most original text that we can [23:00] have [23:02] to work from when we translate into [23:04] english so i think that [23:05] maybe is what he's referring to but even [23:08] so [23:08] uh that it's not as if there exists [23:12] uh for colossians say our topic today [23:15] uh an aramaic translation of colossians [23:18] that [23:18] i can pull off of any dusty shelf in [23:20] this in this room [23:22] it just isn't there so uh so i [23:25] i i'm afraid i can't get around the fact [23:27] that he seems to be making this up and [23:29] it [23:30] it it there can i say two things about [23:33] that sorry one is one one is more [23:36] pastoral i spent some time as a pastor [23:39] when i first finished seminary and i'll [23:41] start with the pastoral comment [23:43] uh i there was a woman who came up to me [23:47] when i was when i had a a job as a [23:50] shopkeeper [23:51] several years back and i had already [23:53] done some study of the new testament i'd [23:55] already learned grief in hebrew [23:57] and she knew that and she knew that i i [24:00] loved [24:01] the lord jesus christ and i wanted to [24:04] see people understanding god's word and [24:06] understand the gospel [24:07] and so she asked me had i heard about [24:10] these new aramaic [24:11] texts which were providing us with a new [24:14] translation [24:15] and she didn't share any names with me [24:17] and at the time i wasn't aware of this [24:19] passion translation but i'm almost [24:21] certain [24:21] this is what she was talking about uh [24:23] and uh [24:24] and and i said to her i i don't think [24:28] you're getting good information because [24:30] that's just not out there i've done a [24:32] lot of work with ancient documents and [24:34] this sounds really suspicious to me and [24:37] and yet she was so enticed by it that [24:40] she was listening to everything she was [24:42] being told [24:43] by people who were touting this as god's [24:46] word [24:47] most clearly communicated to her and [24:50] and that really bothered me as as a [24:52] former pastor [24:53] because i knew there were things that [24:55] she was telling me i didn't know the [24:56] source [24:57] text was the passion translation but i [25:00] knew there were things she was telling [25:01] me that were wrong [25:02] so i you can tell i'm a little bit [25:04] animated about this because [25:06] i think it really affects people [25:07] negatively yeah [25:09] we sorry from a scholarly standpoint [25:13] and once you call yourself a translation [25:16] or translation committee with reviewers [25:18] uh although although you may be a [25:20] brother or sister in christ and i want [25:21] to i want to respect you and show you [25:24] love [25:24] and be as generous as i can eventually [25:27] the realm of scholarly [25:28] discussion or scholarly debate at that [25:30] point [25:32] and and so all of our claims as scholars [25:34] about [25:35] the text or manuscripts are are and [25:38] should be [25:38] subject to very tight academic scrutiny [25:43] and as we look at this from a scholarly [25:45] perspective [25:46] there's nothing there's nothing behind [25:48] the curtain there's i'm afraid you pull [25:51] the curtain back [25:51] and there's just nothing there so i'm [25:54] left with this impression [25:56] that when when brian simmons wants to [25:59] expansively comment on the biblical text [26:03] it seems as though those points he's [26:07] he's claiming he has an aramaic original [26:09] which might be a syriac original but i [26:11] have not been able to find any of those [26:14] yeah and when you say syriac original [26:15] like if you know please correct i'm [26:17] going to [26:18] put this in my own words you're not [26:20] saying i don't think [26:22] you're not saying we have some sort of [26:24] original writing from the apostles that [26:26] was in syriac rather [26:28] the new testament writings were [26:29] translated into a language [26:31] sort of similar to jesus's language but [26:34] different not quite jesus is aramaic but [26:35] a different language [26:36] or a similar language it's a syriac [26:38] aramaic type thing [26:40] and that's from the greek over to a [26:43] different language [26:44] and he's treating it as though it were [26:45] the original so that he can kind of get [26:47] like a more authentic reading of the [26:48] bible at least that's the impression [26:50] normal people get oh he's he's getting [26:52] the real truth like we're getting the [26:54] real reading from jesus [26:55] so let me be i'll try to be really [26:57] crystal clear that's exactly what i'm [26:59] trying to say [26:59] is that even if there are syriac texts [27:03] uh which he's calling arabic those are [27:05] much later texts than the new testament [27:08] they're translations and an expert like [27:11] pete williams who [27:13] is at cambridge in tindle house has [27:16] written [27:16] about this and says there's a trajectory [27:18] whereby the earlier the [27:20] syriac translation actually the less the [27:22] less good quality [27:23] it is they become more literal over time [27:27] in general so that if you have a 7th [27:29] century text as a translation into [27:30] syriac it's going to be a little bit [27:32] more faithful but [27:34] that might mean as you can see that [27:36] we've got late quite late texts which [27:38] are translations of the greek [27:40] original text that we're now somehow [27:43] magically calling original and and if i [27:45] could just add one more note [27:47] to argue or to act as though it's it's [27:50] um [27:52] it's just a fact that jesus spoke [27:54] aramaic and these texts [27:56] would have originally been in aramaic or [27:58] translated from aramaic [27:59] that's also not that's not a [28:02] um a straightforward claim to me jesus [28:05] did not speak greek he spoke [28:07] aramaic galilean aramaic [28:10] so i i'm someone who works a lot with [28:13] ancient inscriptions [28:15] and we've got a wonderful set of new [28:17] inscriptions [28:18] from judea from palestine from from the [28:21] whole [28:22] region where jesus and the disciples [28:24] were living at the same time [28:26] frame that have just come out in the [28:27] last 15 years and more than anything [28:30] this has shown us how [28:31] multilingual israel was [28:34] in the first century and most new [28:37] testaments followed [28:38] all new testament scholars will tell you [28:40] that [28:41] nothing was written in aramaic that we [28:44] have access to [28:45] everything was written in greek and it [28:47] was probably first written in greek and [28:49] jesus was probably also one who knew and [28:50] spoke greek [28:52] yes he probably had aramaic maybe he had [28:54] hebrew as well but we've got all kinds [28:56] of mounting evidence for the [28:57] multilingual [28:58] environment of first century galilee and [29:01] judea [29:02] so i just want to make sure that people [29:03] are aware of this so that when they hear [29:05] someone claim [29:07] no it must have been arabic and now [29:09] we've got these texts [29:10] there's there are several problems at [29:13] each step in that [29:14] argument so this is all my alarm bells [29:16] go off with this [29:17] because i mean i have footage and i'll [29:20] play it [29:21] some part in our clip here i'll play it [29:22] for the people to hear where brian says [29:24] that scholarship has recently uncovered [29:28] this wonderful fact that the original [29:30] new testament documents were almost all [29:32] written in aramaic and he acts as though [29:34] like the scholarly world just had an [29:37] aramaic bomb dropped on it and they're [29:38] all sort of [29:39] experiencing the aftershock of it and [29:42] this is the kind of stuff he'll claim in [29:43] front of an audience that has no [29:45] knowledge of these types of things [29:46] all of our bible commentaries [29:50] and our understanding of the new [29:52] testament is based on what is called [29:54] greek primacy [29:56] which is that the original manuscripts [29:58] original autographs of the new testament [29:59] were all written in greek guess what's [30:02] happened in the last five years [30:04] this is really new brand new scholarship [30:07] just like they've discovered things [30:08] archaeologically that are astounding [30:11] they have discovered [30:13] and i've i've read the scholarly [30:16] uh reports hundreds and hundreds [30:19] of examples where it's been proven that [30:22] the greek manuscripts [30:24] are second-gen copies of the original [30:27] aramaic [30:28] new testament that virtually all of the [30:31] new testament there could be some [30:33] exceptions [30:34] but virtually all of the new testament [30:35] was originally in aramaic [30:37] and then copied into greek this causes [30:40] all the scholars [30:41] to free down and go back to the trash [30:43] can into the dusty corners of their [30:45] libraries and pull out all the greek men [30:47] or all the aramaic manuscripts and [30:49] realized that [30:50] they had thrown away the originals and [30:53] this [30:53] sets him up as kind of it's it seems [30:56] like a scholarly snake oil [30:58] type thing that's going on here i i and [31:00] i'm not trying to put those words in [31:02] your mouth [31:03] i tend to have stronger words than most [31:05] scholars do because everybody's always [31:06] very careful with their terms and i'm [31:08] i'm just clumsy sometimes [31:09] sometimes on purpose um because i just [31:12] want to make sure it's clear [31:13] i just want to make sure it's clear that [31:14] this is this is not accurate so can you [31:16] respond to that just [31:17] real quick um is it in fact not true [31:21] that scholars have recently shifted and [31:24] all decided that [31:26] the aramaic is probably the original [31:27] behind most of the new testament [31:30] it's just not true in fact it's bonkers [31:32] to say that [31:33] so if that's clear enough it's actually [31:35] clear [31:37] and it you know there as with anything [31:40] there are [31:41] there are strands of truth in what he's [31:43] saying and that in the middle of the [31:44] 20th century [31:46] there were debates about especially with [31:49] relation to the gospels [31:51] would we have we would be able to work [31:53] backwards from the greek text that we [31:55] have [31:56] to a reconstructed aramaic text which [31:59] might have represented [32:01] the spoken aramaic that jesus might have [32:03] been using [32:05] but that has not been in any in any way [32:08] shape or form [32:09] the dominant conclusion of new testament [32:12] scholarship and there have been no epic [32:14] bombshells dropped in the last several [32:16] decades [32:17] okay because this is yeah that's really [32:18] central to every time you see the word [32:20] aramaic in his translation it seems like [32:21] this is connected to this type of claim [32:23] he uh he even has like in many of the [32:25] places he goes and speaks he says that [32:27] jesus's last word on the cross wasn't to [32:28] telesty [32:29] uh he didn't it wasn't to tell us die in [32:32] the greek he didn't say that he said an [32:33] aramaic word [32:34] and the aramaic word has a double [32:35] meaning because you know he likes to [32:36] double triple translate things [32:38] so he says in many many occasions i've [32:40] seen him say probably six different [32:41] places [32:43] in large gatherings that what tetelestai [32:46] actually [32:46] means is it's a double meaning and it [32:49] also means bride [32:50] and so his final word on the cross was [32:52] to yell out bride this will change your [32:54] life [32:55] i mean this you'll never forget this [32:58] never long as you live you will never [33:01] forget what i'm going to say in the next [33:03] two minutes [33:05] absolutely change you forever have i got [33:07] your attention [33:10] and that's not american hype [33:13] the last word jesus spoke on the cross [33:16] he did not speak in greek [33:17] what is the last word jesus spoke on the [33:19] cross [33:21] you've heard me say this haven't you [33:23] okay you know what's coming sweetheart [33:25] oh this does it change your life oh this [33:28] this will i just got an email on my i [33:30] could show you my phone [33:32] uh women's prison is being revivals [33:35] hitting a women's prison [33:36] because of what i'm about to share with [33:37] you [33:39] the last word jesus spoke on the cross [33:41] he spoke in aramaic the language of [33:43] jesus was not greek [33:44] he spoke aramaic i'm not going to make [33:47] the point [33:47] you're going to have to search it out [33:49] and you you come to your own conclusion [33:50] but jesus taught the lord's prayer [33:53] sermon on the mount the teachings of [33:54] jesus were all in aramaic not greek [33:57] all right so the last word jesus spoke a [34:00] dying man is going to speak from his [34:02] heart [34:03] his heart language i speak a number of [34:04] languages but when i want to speak to my [34:06] wife or i share my heart it's english [34:08] jesus spoke aramaic the last word on the [34:11] cross was kala [34:12] kala kala is an aramaic homonym [34:17] which means finished but what if [34:21] for 2000 years the church has been [34:25] robbed [34:27] of what jesus really said [34:30] his dying breath kala if i [34:34] ask any hebrew speaker even to this very [34:36] day [34:37] aramaic and hebrew linguistically linked [34:40] it's the same in aramaic or hebrew the [34:42] word kala do you want to know what it [34:43] means [34:44] are you sitting down [34:47] it's the hebrew word bride [34:53] bride [34:59] then he gave birth to her because from [35:03] his [35:03] side came blood and water mom blood and [35:07] water [35:08] he gave birth and he always tells the [35:11] crowds the same thing he goes when i [35:12] tell you this it's going to change your [35:13] life you'll never be the same [35:15] and i was the same after i heard it but [35:16] i thought but i thought it was that kind [35:18] of thing that it's like [35:20] what's going on here this isn't [35:21] responsible to the word of god or the [35:23] people of god or [35:24] or or to the words of christ it just [35:26] seems not to be [35:28] not at all and i i think you know i i [35:32] would i would try again to be generous [35:34] and think how many how many sermons have [35:37] i preached or have i heard [35:38] where i might have said something which [35:40] is helpful [35:42] and maybe even in terms of the whole [35:44] bible the right doctrine [35:47] but not what this text was actually [35:49] communicating [35:51] and i think that's what's going on there [35:52] you know of course the church is the [35:54] bride of christ [35:55] in the new testament but to argue that [35:58] catalyst i [35:59] in any way gets us there is is not just [36:03] false linguistically false according to [36:06] the manuscript tradition [36:07] it's also really damaging because you're [36:10] suggesting to people [36:12] that the word of god that we do have [36:14] that god has [36:15] given by his holy spirit through these [36:18] human authors [36:19] who wrote in greek and he preserved this [36:23] in his wonderfully kind providence for [36:25] us in the manuscript tradition [36:26] that that's not actually the word of god [36:29] and that only if i'm touched by god [36:31] himself and have access to something [36:33] nobody else can see [36:35] can i tell you what god means at that [36:37] point you become [36:38] a renegade prophet and i think that's [36:41] really dangerous [36:42] but what if for 2000 years the church [36:47] has been robbed of [36:50] uh what jesus really said all right [36:53] let's [36:54] continue on the aramaic path just for a [36:56] second [36:57] i'm very grateful for all the things [36:59] you're sharing you're [37:00] echoing what's in my heart for sure so [37:03] um [37:04] uh one of the things that brian simmons [37:05] likes to claim is that [37:08] aramaic in part of this whole like sort [37:10] of gnostic kind of secret [37:12] secret knowledge thing that he kind of [37:13] leans on that aramaic is like the love [37:15] language of god [37:16] and and the aramaic and the hebrew it's [37:19] in this you get [37:20] god's love language and so the [37:23] implication [37:24] is that when we when we read [37:26] translations unlike the passion who [37:28] aren't leaning heavily on the aramaic [37:29] everywhere [37:30] that they're missing out on some very [37:33] valuable elements of god's love [37:34] and the passion is given the name of the [37:37] of the translation is restoring this [37:40] but isn't it by its root a very [37:41] love-filled language that's very [37:43] emotional [37:44] oh you know hebrew is pure [37:47] emotion the poetic language [37:50] of hebrew and aramaic release something [37:53] inside of us [37:55] it's it's divine it is full of [37:57] revelation [37:58] there's flavor it's not it's like [38:00] thinking with your heart [38:02] it's like heart level to heart level [38:04] spirit to spirit deep calling out to [38:06] deep [38:07] the romantic poetic heart-filled words [38:09] of god will fill you with new passion [38:11] and god's revival fire [38:12] you will get to know god on a deeper and [38:14] more intimate level the very words in [38:16] this translation will go right past the [38:18] defenses in your mind and right into [38:20] your spirit [38:21] the word of god will become so alive in [38:23] you and you will have a supernatural [38:25] encounter with the glory and presence of [38:27] god [38:28] is that true is aramaic an inherently [38:30] more [38:31] loving language is it like god's [38:33] selective love language [38:35] so this is one of the things that uh it [38:37] really has been a problem for me in [38:38] reading this is [38:39] it's a it's i i see it as a really truly [38:42] great offense against god and [38:44] in a in effect a kind of blasphemy [38:47] against god to say that he [38:48] that if effectively it collapses all his [38:51] attributes all that he is into one thing [38:54] but the scriptures testify as a whole to [38:56] many facets of god and i i just wonder [38:59] what simmons would do with [39:00] uh texts where there is judgment being [39:02] levied or [39:04] god's hatred of sin is being expressed [39:06] is this [39:07] all love language or is is god [39:10] is god loving but is he also holy and is [39:13] he also [39:13] just now i know simmons will want to [39:15] affirm those things so i'm not trying to [39:16] misrepresent him here [39:18] but i'm saying his claim about being a [39:20] love language is incompatible [39:22] with all the information that we have [39:24] about how this [39:26] uh language languages work and the the [39:28] claim that [39:29] aramaic is recovering a love language [39:32] and the secret heart of god [39:34] i think i've mentioned you before it's [39:36] somewhat similar to a lot of the gnostic [39:38] texts that we have in the in the first [39:41] centuries where um especially second [39:44] century you've got texts [39:46] uh coming up that will say things like [39:48] this is the secret [39:50] message from so-and-so or the secret [39:52] knowledge [39:53] about excellence it and that's what [39:56] essentially [39:57] seems to be claiming is that you need to [39:59] get behind [40:00] what you've got written in front of you [40:02] to the real meaning [40:03] and that it teaches us something about [40:06] god that was hidden [40:07] and i think again that is in a way is a [40:10] blasphemy against the holy spirit [40:12] because we want to affirm that for the [40:14] last several thousand years [40:16] we have had as like the bible just said [40:18] we have had the word of god with us and [40:20] we've had [40:21] all that that we need to know for life [40:23] and godliness [40:24] for uh what god is like what man is like [40:27] the nature of sin [40:28] the salvation that comes to us in christ [40:31] that we have had that it hasn't been [40:33] missing for two thousand years it was [40:35] given to us [40:36] uh through the apostles by the holy [40:38] spirit in the scriptures [40:39] so i really find that as a as a [40:42] christian somebody who loves god's word [40:44] and wants to honor god for who he is and [40:46] the work of the holy spirit [40:48] i find it offensive and frankly [40:50] blasphemous [40:52] well your paper is organized really well [40:54] um [40:55] it's it's organized sort of with uh [40:57] rather than a verse [40:58] structure going in order through [41:00] colossians you go concept wise you have [41:02] you know several observations a number [41:03] of observations you make and the first [41:05] observation [41:06] we'll kind of work through a bunch of [41:07] those right now the first one that you [41:08] make [41:09] is about how long colossians is in the [41:12] passion translation [41:13] compared to how long the same book is in [41:15] other translations [41:17] and i'll be able to put this table up on [41:18] screen for everybody to see but can you [41:20] explain what the problem is here right [41:23] okay so [41:24] one of the one of the inherent [41:26] challenges with [41:27] uh translating is that we don't always [41:30] have exactly the same [41:32] kind of word or a phrase or [41:35] idiom or something like that in in the [41:37] language that we're translating into [41:39] which we call the target language so [41:40] we're looking at greek [41:42] and we're wanting to translate into [41:43] english right they may not be the same [41:46] habits of speech and different different [41:48] words so sometimes what we need to do is [41:50] be slightly expansive and what i mean by [41:52] that is we might [41:54] uh give a translation that has a few [41:56] more words in order to convey the [41:58] meaning [41:58] because ultimately in translation we [42:01] want to have in front of us [42:02] uh the meaning of what the greek says we [42:05] want the meaning in english so sometimes [42:07] that takes a few more words [42:08] and i think in the in the table there [42:10] you'll see that [42:12] uh counting the greek number of words [42:14] and then counting [42:15] any english translations number of words [42:18] there is going to be more words in that [42:19] english translation [42:20] because we're changing into another [42:22] language that works differently [42:24] but if you compare the the difference of [42:27] between like the esv the niv the nasb [42:32] their percentage by which there's more [42:34] words in english than there is in greek [42:36] is relatively consistent but when you [42:39] look at the passion translation [42:41] uh so have a look there 2900 [42:44] words to translate colossians and the [42:48] next [42:48] highest is uh is the nasd with 2122 [42:54] 122 words so the passion translation is [42:57] longer than that by [42:58] nearly 40 percent you see how close the [43:00] number of words in english the rest of [43:02] the translations get it's because they [43:04] they are communicating a very similar [43:05] meaning they all have a good grasp of [43:07] what the greek is saying [43:08] but simmons either just doesn't [43:11] understand [43:12] how to translate well so he uses extra [43:14] words [43:15] or he's adding in a lot and i think it's [43:17] primarily it's definitely some of the [43:19] the former but it's primarily that he is [43:21] adding in a lot [43:23] a host of material to his translation [43:26] i think that's that is such a useful [43:29] just immediate image to say okay wow [43:31] that's that's a significant difference [43:33] and this is this is in the book of [43:34] colossians but this holds true across [43:36] the entire translation [43:37] there are sections that are much more [43:40] than 30 or 50 [43:41] longer in some places like twice as long [43:44] um there's there's [43:45] places where one verse that most [43:47] translations would handle in 17 words he [43:49] handles in like 42 words [43:51] um this this kind of thing happens [43:53] throughout throughout the work itself [43:56] more or less in different books but [43:57] always always a lot more than everybody [43:59] else does in their translations so [44:01] that's interesting thing there [44:02] how about um the second observation you [44:04] make which is [44:05] uh something i thought was really [44:06] helpful it's how simmons inconsistently [44:08] translates [44:09] the exact same greek phrase can you [44:11] explain i'll put that table up as well [44:13] can you explain like uh [44:14] why is it significant and you've taken [44:17] let me just highlight you've taken [44:19] phrases in your tables two and three [44:21] phrases that paul [44:22] tends to use the same phrase in the same [44:24] context [44:26] and yet simmons is handling it in very [44:28] imaginative ways [44:30] so i'll just make a brief note about [44:31] this i mean i think uh dr bitter is also [44:33] taking a look at a little bit of the [44:34] introductions that that [44:37] simmons does there but when paul writes [44:40] his letters uh depending on who he's [44:43] writing to and what his purpose is he [44:45] gives [44:46] the same greeting in greek in table [44:49] two uh vietnam that's um [44:53] the same exact greek words take place in [44:56] all [44:57] five of those greetings that i've listed [44:59] there and so [45:00] if simmons was translating he would have [45:03] the same result [45:05] for each one of those verses and i'm not [45:08] making [45:08] an assumption that he didn't compare [45:11] them [45:12] but i think from what i've seen him [45:14] talking about his translation [45:15] he did this in in phases and [45:18] he and as far as i can find from the [45:21] publication dates he released them in [45:23] phases as well which means that i think [45:24] he was working on different books at [45:26] different times [45:27] and that for me is an indicator that he [45:30] doesn't really know [45:30] necessarily what's going on in the greek [45:32] there and that he's not translating [45:34] because [45:34] those three words are very easy to [45:37] translate [45:38] into english and so you should get [45:39] exactly the same phrase [45:41] in all five places and the same thing [45:43] with table three [45:44] i think that that shows even more [45:46] radically [45:47] how he uses totally different words [45:49] sometimes this is [45:50] a riches of favor sometimes grace uh [45:53] sometimes undeserved favor [45:55] releasing grace uh so he adds verbs [45:59] now this table three what is that [46:01] usually translated as [46:05] grace to you and peace grace to you in [46:08] peace but [46:08] all of these are examples of how he has [46:12] very differently translated and [46:15] and you know as i mentioned briefly [46:18] before but can you account for the [46:19] differences these being translated [46:20] differently by different contexts [46:22] are they put into strange contexts that [46:23] would cause you to think of different [46:25] things when reading the same words but [46:27] not really i think dr buddha can speak [46:29] to this as well but the nature of [46:30] what's happening in the introductions to [46:32] these uh even this epistolary [46:34] uh literature these letters which are [46:36] epistles i [46:37] it's it's a it's a greeting it's a [46:40] common greeting [46:41] and the context isn't going to change [46:43] that he's pronouncing [46:44] grace in the lord jesus christ and peace [46:47] from god the father [46:49] that's not going to change the meaning [46:50] of these words their meaning stays the [46:52] same [46:54] yeah and we'll return to some of this [46:56] pretty soon we're all in a little bit [46:57] let's talk about observation number [46:59] three which is about adding or [47:00] subtracting various parts of [47:02] speech now you offer it to my count here [47:06] 43 examples [47:08] of adding or subtracting different parts [47:10] of speech that are in colossians just in [47:12] four chapters here it's a pretty short [47:13] book it's a pretty quick read [47:15] well we can't go through every example [47:16] could you give us just an idea of [47:18] like what you've found through this sure [47:20] i can speak to some of alex's [47:22] conclusions [47:23] and and affirm them heartily all you [47:25] have to do is look at the first [47:27] two verses uh in in colossians to [47:30] realize [47:32] that not only what we we were just [47:34] talking about ways that he [47:35] inconsistently translates [47:37] i might add inaccurately translates [47:40] these are [47:41] um you would not pass a greek one [47:44] class if you were translating the [47:47] phrases [47:48] in tables two and three in the ways that [47:50] he's doing and [47:52] and not just because we want to be [47:54] strict or pedantic but because it's just [47:56] not a good translation so [47:58] it's it's it's not serious to my mind [48:01] as i look at this but then you start to [48:04] realize [48:05] as you read fashion translation next to [48:08] the greek text [48:09] that he's just throwing things in and [48:12] it's it's a little bit more than a [48:13] paraphrase [48:13] this is why i characterize it as a [48:15] commentary [48:17] and a very interpretive commentary that [48:20] if you look at [48:21] if you look at colossians 1 1 and 2 [48:25] i'll just read out what he has if that's [48:26] all right and then note [48:28] a few things it says my name is paul and [48:31] i [48:32] i've been chosen by jesus christ to be [48:35] his apostle [48:36] by the calling and destined purpose of [48:38] god [48:39] my colleague timothy and i send this [48:42] letter to all the holy believers [48:44] who have been united to jesus as beloved [48:47] followers of the messiah [48:48] may god our true father release upon [48:51] your lives the riches of his kind favor [48:54] and heavenly peace through the truth [48:57] sorry he goes on through the lord jesus [48:58] the anointed one [49:00] and i'm sorry i left that bit out [49:02] because on my copy i [49:04] i made some notes and crossed out things [49:06] that just aren't there in the greek [49:07] uh so so he's adding entire phrases as [49:10] well as words [49:12] what uh what people will see if they're [49:13] looking at alex's paper that i know [49:15] you're going to post [49:17] in observation 3 are things like [49:19] adjectives that adjected true [49:21] or heavenly there in verse 2 [49:24] if we read on another verse the verb [49:26] overflow isn't [49:28] it's just not there but this is [49:30] incredibly expansive and much more so [49:32] than you would need to be [49:34] to make this to make this communicate [49:38] appropriately on the basis of the greek [49:41] so it [49:41] it it really is i think an egregious [49:45] level of addition and change that we're [49:47] looking at here [49:48] yeah yeah this is this is a huge deal [49:52] i mean we don't we [49:55] we want to trust our translators that [49:57] they're giving us a faithful [49:58] representation of what god inspired to [50:00] be written [50:01] not an adaptation and additions and [50:04] subtractions [50:05] uh we we need to be able to trust these [50:07] guys this is why we put them on teams [50:08] right [50:09] because it's like trust but verify you [50:11] know and um [50:13] and this is unfortunately not what's [50:14] happening with the passion translation [50:16] so [50:16] there's 43 examples there that everybody [50:18] can look at but in observation number [50:20] four [50:21] you talk about radical expansions [50:24] radical expansions what exactly do you [50:26] mean [50:26] um alex by radical expansions and can [50:29] you walk us through [50:30] some of those sure so the difference [50:32] there between a radical expansion and [50:34] just adding some [50:35] verbs and adjectives like we just spoke [50:37] about there in the third point [50:39] is that these seem to import whole [50:41] sentences [50:42] uh large new ideas not just single words [50:45] or [50:46] or phrases uh i think the [50:49] the best example there is in chapter one [50:52] verse five [50:53] you'll see there that it's a one and a [50:55] half lines [50:56] to translate it simply into english and [50:59] for him it ends up being almost six [51:01] lines six lines long [51:03] uh 54 words compared to 26 [51:07] in my translation and uh it's it's not [51:10] complicated greek [51:11] really not complicated greed so it's not [51:14] that the meaning needed to be explained [51:16] by expanding it a bit it's just whole [51:19] extra ideas [51:20] that that which prove that he's bringing [51:23] in [51:23] something that he wants to say as [51:25] opposed to making clear what's in the [51:27] text [51:28] and so i think it's the difference there [51:30] is what is motivating a verse being [51:33] longer than perhaps you might think it [51:35] needs to be is it because it needs to be [51:36] made [51:37] more clear or is it because you wanted [51:39] to say something and you took that [51:40] opportunity in the text [51:41] i think it's i think it's that the [51:42] letter [51:44] yeah may i interject something please do [51:47] dr bitter [51:48] and uh you can you can tell me if it's [51:51] helpful or not but i think [51:52] earlier i mentioned uh you know you [51:56] this is not good translation from greek [51:58] even a first year group level [52:00] now if that sounds too academic for some [52:03] people [52:04] as if i'm you know here's the teacher [52:05] the professor being pedantic and [52:08] too strict let me put it in terms of a [52:10] different analogy [52:11] uh if if we were watching the president [52:14] of the united states [52:15] or some kind of diplomat in a room with [52:18] a [52:18] an official from another country in [52:20] another language and they couldn't [52:21] communicate in english [52:23] so they have an interpreter there and if [52:26] there was a very short and precise [52:29] and exact and crafted sentence that the [52:32] president [52:33] uttered and then the interpreter goes on [52:35] and on for a paragraph's worth [52:38] of translation i can tell you what would [52:40] happen to that interpreter very quickly [52:43] he or she would be fired because it [52:45] would be very clear that they're [52:46] inserting [52:47] what they want to say in in unnecessary [52:50] excess and and again i think that's [52:53] what's [52:53] that's what we're talking about here in [52:55] these first several observations [52:58] and if we grant which i think most of [52:59] your you know most of the people viewing [53:01] this [53:02] uh who love god's word would want to [53:04] grant that paul's the apostle [53:07] not brian simmons so so brian simmons [53:10] job is to translate [53:11] paul as the one who is inspired by the [53:13] spirit of god [53:14] then the interpreter ought to stick to [53:17] the apostles text that was inspired by [53:19] the spirit and not go crazy and expand [53:21] it [53:22] yeah even if you just expand it to make [53:24] it [53:25] feel better land better to to add stuff [53:29] that you think [53:29] if only paul had said it this way boy [53:32] people would really connect with it that [53:33] much more [53:34] because you're not the inspired author [53:37] you are [53:38] you are supposed to be a translator but [53:39] this is what brian simmons says over and [53:40] over again [53:41] so many of the changes he he gives like [53:43] let me read the paragraph to you're [53:44] mentioning in one five [53:46] he says your faith and love rise within [53:49] you [53:49] as you access all the treasures of your [53:51] inheritance stored up for you [53:53] up in the heavenly realm for the [53:56] revelation of the true gospel is as real [53:58] today [53:58] as the day you first heard of our [54:00] glorious hope now that you have believed [54:02] in the truth [54:02] of the gospel these are nice sounding [54:05] phrases [54:06] these feel good but that's not the [54:09] question [54:10] isn't what bible feels the best [54:13] in the most places this is the question [54:16] is [54:16] which one represents the original [54:18] inspired work that god gave us so yeah [54:21] let's talk about observation number five [54:22] and this one i thought was interesting [54:23] you said it's the use of [54:25] unusual words unusual words can you walk [54:28] us [54:28] through that yeah this was a [54:31] particularly interesting [54:32] observation for me because i understand [54:37] his he has a philosophy that he wants to [54:38] add in certain verbs and nouns and [54:40] adjectives to [54:41] to be a bit clearer or to say something [54:43] that he wants to say [54:44] but what's different here is when he [54:46] uses the same [54:49] word that's not in the text but multiple [54:51] times and for me that indicates when [54:53] someone does that in a normal [54:54] conversation with me and they keep [54:56] saying the same word [54:57] it's a key to me that they think that [54:59] this is important and that there's some [55:01] kind of agenda connected with that and i [55:03] think that's what we end up seeing here [55:04] for example the idea of revelation [55:08] which does not appear seven times even [55:10] though it's not in the greek text and [55:12] it's almost with the idea behind it is [55:15] that he wants to say [55:17] there's something more to know than what [55:20] is just what we're talking about here in [55:21] the text and i think that fits with his [55:23] overall perspective that [55:24] aramaic is this recovered love language [55:27] and you know those types of claims [55:29] these uh also the use of the word rome [55:33] there's some there's some ways in which [55:34] we we can actually helpfully use this [55:36] phrase [55:37] but based on how i've heard him talk [55:39] about it in different contexts [55:41] he uses that word to mean something a [55:43] little different [55:44] to to what you find in a greek lexicon [55:47] in its usage in the new testament so [55:48] it's really misleading to use it uh even [55:52] um in english even though it especially [55:54] though it's not in the greek [55:56] um he also uses the word release [56:00] which is not actually a scriptural way [56:02] of talking about [56:04] how we obtain uh grace and peace [56:07] as if there are uh some substances yeah [56:10] and that's [56:10] so he'll mention like i'm like releasing [56:12] forgiveness or releasing grace [56:14] upon you right like that's the way he [56:15] adds it in there right and i think i've [56:18] made this point somewhere else in the [56:19] paper but [56:20] when i forgive someone i don't release a [56:23] mystical substance through the airways [56:25] to them that now [56:27] plants forgiveness on them and restores [56:30] the atmosphere or something [56:31] rather i cease to hold them in my in [56:35] in debt to me for something that they've [56:37] done as a sin against me [56:39] for example it's it's an actual action [56:41] it's not the release of some substance [56:44] and the same thing with god's grace to [56:46] us it's not some particle that comes [56:48] through the air [56:49] it's the way in which god acts towards [56:51] us in jesus christ [56:53] and in giving us his spirit i think [56:56] these are really important because [56:58] they're theologically charged terms and [57:01] so as a translator you [57:03] you don't want to come with a [57:05] theological agenda [57:07] you just want to be representing what [57:09] the text says so that's why i think [57:10] those are pretty important [57:11] yeah now this got my attention so much [57:14] this observation you made because [57:15] this is uh you know it's pervasive i [57:17] found this elsewhere like [57:19] he's at okay so in in the hyper [57:20] charismatic [57:22] particular group he's part of now i'm [57:24] charismatic so i'm not trying to rip on [57:25] charismatics at all here [57:27] but there are certain buzz words right [57:29] that that those who are charismatic tend [57:31] to use and hyper charismatic groups tend [57:33] to use them even more [57:34] brian simmons seems to have embedded [57:36] these buzzwords throughout the text of [57:38] the passion translation these types [57:40] of things uh release and realm and [57:42] revelation and [57:43] somebody told me who has been part of [57:45] this movement in the past they said [57:46] i wonder if you put the word portals in [57:47] there portals because in my [57:49] group they always talk about portals so [57:51] i'm like looking up portals yep there it [57:52] is [57:52] you know it's nowhere else no other [57:54] translation does this [57:56] but his does because it's not coming [57:58] from the text it's coming from somewhere [57:59] else [58:01] sorry mike i i i think this is [58:05] um i think this is really dangerous [58:08] and really troubling to me because [58:11] whether or not i agree with brian [58:14] simmons [58:15] interpretations of scripture or his [58:17] theological [58:19] views on a variety of things my hope [58:22] would be that we're working from the [58:24] same word of god [58:25] that actually we could have a discussion [58:27] that god's word is god's word [58:29] and that's what we both will take as [58:31] authoritative [58:32] we both want to submit ourselves to [58:34] god's word we both want to [58:36] learn from what god has revealed to us [58:38] we both want to bring our lives our [58:40] doctrine and our understanding and our [58:42] behavior [58:43] more and more in line with the health of [58:44] god's spirit according to his word [58:47] is the standard but when you tweak that [58:50] standard [58:50] and make that standard speak in the [58:53] words of your interpretation [58:55] you are actually preventing people from [58:58] hearing the voice of god in a way that [59:00] might tell them something they didn't [59:02] already think [59:03] or didn't already know and that becomes [59:06] really dangerous and it and it [59:08] it it means this is not just not a [59:10] translation [59:11] it's it's a way to throw a veil over the [59:14] scriptures to keep people from hearing [59:16] god [59:17] speak to them so powerfully through the [59:19] words of the text [59:20] that they might have their minds and [59:22] their hearts changed by what god says [59:24] not by what brian simmons says [59:26] amen i so appreciate you saying that i [59:29] think that's so valuable [59:30] and if i can just add more support to [59:32] what you just said [59:33] there's it's no surprise to me that when [59:36] i go to the passion translations [59:38] publisher website [59:39] and i see the official endorsers of the [59:41] work those who've endorsed the passion [59:43] translation you know bill johnson has [59:44] his own version i [59:45] actually got it here right the the one [59:47] that has the forward by bill johnson in [59:49] it and [59:49] uh those who've endorsed it are almost [59:52] all in fact everybody i've able to been [59:54] you know i've done background checks on [59:55] just about everybody to my ability here [59:57] not criminal background checks i just [59:58] look them up to see kind of who are they [60:00] are they [60:01] are the credentialed scholars that are [60:02] endorsing it this is what i was looking [60:03] for [60:04] but i find that all of them are hyper [60:05] charismatic people so bill johnson bobby [60:08] houston [60:08] che on lou engle james gold patricia [60:11] king and the list goes on [60:12] and so we find these words embedded in [60:15] the text what you'll call a veil [60:16] which i think is accurate like how's [60:18] that how is scripture to change my [60:19] theology [60:20] if my theology is being placed into the [60:22] text from my [60:24] you know sort of corporate sort of [60:26] mentalities and buzzwords that we've got [60:28] and then we find all those who are [60:29] endorsing it are from the same camp [60:31] and then we find that there's just more [60:33] and more evidence of this sort of thing [60:34] so [60:34] that's why i thought observation number [60:36] five you put was really [60:39] an eye-opener for people to see and to [60:41] my knowledge there has never been [60:43] the translation of the bible ever [60:46] in this generation in english from [60:49] people who believe in the five-fold [60:51] ministry [60:52] dreams visions trances angels coming the [60:55] fire of god [60:56] divine encounters people going to heaven [60:58] and back getting fresh revelation [61:00] with passion uncourt unrestrained [61:04] attached to the translation that's a [61:06] mouthful [61:07] [Music] [61:09] and that's what i'm trying to do with [61:10] the passion translation and i've already [61:12] got people like slam in it i got whole [61:14] web pages telling [61:15] how i'm the devil you know [61:18] they listed me as one of the most [61:20] dangerous christians [61:22] in our in the prophetic apostolic [61:24] spirit-filled movement right now they [61:26] listed me as one of the [61:28] one of the most dangerous because of [61:29] this translation is going to change the [61:31] church [61:32] i said it takes my enemies to get it my [61:35] enemies are prophesying [61:37] what's what's gonna happen so let's talk [61:39] about number six um [61:41] observation six is about simmons having [61:43] a habit [61:44] of grouping verses together with joint [61:46] verse numbers now i've seen other [61:48] um paraphrases really do this i've seen [61:51] this before [61:52] not very common perhaps but i have seen [61:54] it what's your concern there [61:57] just that it proves that he's not [61:59] translating [62:01] in a in a direct way because if he was [62:03] you'd be able to keep the [62:04] sentences separate in a way that [62:07] preserves the burst numbers [62:08] and that's as you say rightly [62:10] paraphrases is where you tend to see [62:12] this but he has explicitly said that [62:14] this is not a paraphrase right [62:15] it's the wording is clear on the website [62:17] that this is a reliable translation [62:20] that can be used for teaching uh [62:22] preaching a [62:23] personal devotional study yeah yeah in [62:26] fact [62:26] let me let me if i can remember off the [62:27] top of my head i think the way he words [62:29] it is [62:29] uh it's it's it's good for use as your [62:32] primary bible for serious [62:34] study right which is [62:37] quite a claim it is quite a claim i mean [62:40] if you can't even reference [62:41] verse by verse from it it really is [62:43] proving that you are [62:44] separating and rewriting and [62:48] moving parts of one sentence into [62:49] another and adding together [62:51] and subtracting and so on so what you [62:53] end up with is a sentence which [62:55] might make a sense logically but you [62:57] can't [62:58] you can't divide it up because you've [62:59] changed change things so much so it's a [63:01] brief observation [63:03] and it's not just a matter of style as [63:05] well i think alex has been really [63:07] quite generous in the way he puts that [63:08] let me maybe be a little bit sharper [63:11] um what what he does at several points [63:15] even in just in colossians when he [63:17] combines verses [63:18] is to run roughshod over the way the [63:21] sentence is constructed in greek [63:23] so as in any language so in greek you [63:26] can [63:27] emphasize things by where you put them [63:29] in the sentence you can arrange your [63:30] clauses [63:32] with conjunctions like and or but or now [63:34] or you can use [63:35] certain kinds of prepositions for the [63:38] purpose of to express [63:40] the real goal of what you're saying and [63:42] when he combines what he tends to [63:44] tends to do in these cases in colossians [63:47] is [63:47] to completely obliterate what i would [63:50] call the discourse [63:51] logic the clear communication that ought [63:53] to be there in a good translation [63:55] that could make the difference between [63:56] what's a supporting and what's a more [63:58] ultimate point that paul and the holy [64:02] spirit through paul is trying to make [64:03] so it's not just a matter of style yeah [64:06] awesome [64:07] thank you for sharing that um so number [64:09] seven observation number seven it's [64:10] about divine titles [64:12] so what exactly is the issue there can [64:14] you walk us through that [64:18] yeah again i think alex has done some [64:19] some really good work here [64:21] he he points out that simmons tends to [64:23] add [64:24] these are again additions at auction [64:25] aren't there phrases like the anointed [64:28] one [64:28] uh father yahweh [64:32] and uh and there are a lot of things we [64:34] could say about this but i think [64:35] it's another example of [64:39] quite frankly it's the kind of thing you [64:41] might expect to hear someone like him [64:43] using in prayer as he stood up front and [64:46] praying [64:47] uh these extra addresses to god which in [64:50] a context of prayer might be completely [64:52] appropriate [64:53] that that is we're addressing but what [64:56] he does here [64:57] is is not nearly as helpful i think i i [64:59] will say you know [65:00] i want i want to be charitable i [65:02] absolutely want to be charitable and as [65:03] i look through trying to find things to [65:05] praise [65:06] uh there are times when he will use as [65:09] he did in those opening verses [65:11] the term messiah which is more of a [65:14] title [65:15] to translate christos which is sometimes [65:17] translated straight through as [65:18] christ that's not a that's not a [65:22] difference that really makes a big [65:24] difference but i actually quite like the [65:25] way he does that [65:26] that messiah communicates this is this [65:29] is the [65:30] the one who was expected by the jews on [65:32] the basis of the old testament [65:34] uh to come as as this messianic [65:37] figure this davidic kingly figure so i [65:40] think he has a nice [65:41] instinct in places like that but i think [65:44] overall what he does is [65:46] muddy the waters and and over complicate [65:49] what are sometimes very simple sentences [65:51] and phrases [65:52] that paul uses by adding in these titles [65:55] so let's talk about that anointed one [65:57] real quick because that connects to [65:58] something else i've [65:59] been noticing as i was studying through [66:02] i noticed the same thing with you know [66:03] he he's [66:04] he's translating christ and he'll put [66:06] anointed one there which means he's [66:07] translating as you've observed in your [66:09] paper alex [66:10] he's double translating he's taking the [66:11] word christ which is mentioned once in [66:13] greek [66:13] and he's translated as christ anointed [66:15] one i don't know if in some places he [66:17] might even triple [66:18] translate it christ and messiah and [66:20] anointed one all in the same text [66:22] but uh what's really interesting here is [66:25] now when you take [66:26] acts 11 11 26 b his translation of that [66:30] passage [66:30] where it says that in antioch the they [66:33] were first called christians [66:36] but his version says it was an antioch [66:38] that the followers of jesus were first [66:39] revealed as anointed ones [66:44] and then i started to say wait a minute [66:46] it when he says jesus is an anointed one [66:48] which almost sounds like it's a category [66:50] now [66:51] and then he says we're revealed as [66:52] anointed ones what's he doing here and [66:54] then i find footage of brian simmons [66:55] saying things like [66:57] everything that can be said about jesus [66:59] can be said about [67:00] you how does it feel to be an anointed [67:03] one [67:04] is that good tell the person next to you [67:06] even if you don't like them [67:08] even if they're weird tell the person [67:10] you are an anointed one [67:12] go ahead and tell them i'm gonna say it [67:14] as clear as i can make it folks [67:17] everything you love about jesus will be [67:20] said of you [67:24] you have everything he has [67:28] all of his righteousness all of his [67:30] glory [67:32] all of his authority and god has [67:35] a secret and is getting out [67:42] and the secret is this [67:45] i love you so much i'm going to make you [67:47] just like me [67:50] first born of many there's coming a new [67:52] breed a new day [67:53] a new people are going to come [67:56] i've chosen i want to be in that company [68:00] now i want you to listen with your heart [68:02] don't don't shut down because you think [68:04] you know it all [68:05] right but four times he says my sister [68:09] my bride [68:10] when he visited me 2009 walked through [68:13] my wall [68:14] breathed on me he said i will give you [68:15] secrets and this is the first one he [68:17] gave [68:17] [Music] [68:19] he said the word sister is the hebrew [68:22] word equal [68:25] not equal by bride [68:30] so i translated that my publisher called [68:34] up [68:34] right after i zipped the manuscript to [68:37] him [68:38] and he said uh we're not going to [68:40] publish the book [68:42] i said oh whoa yo what up with that i [68:45] mean what [68:46] why did i do something wrong he said [68:49] well you're telling people four times in [68:51] your translation you're telling people [68:53] that they're equal to jesus [68:56] i said no bro i'm not telling you that [68:58] he is [69:00] i would never say that [69:04] he says it if he tells you not to be [69:08] unequally yoked [69:10] with an unbeliever would he let his own [69:12] son be unequally yoked [69:15] an equal partner will murder a radiant [69:19] infused with glory and look-alike [69:21] partner everything you love about jesus [69:24] will be said over you [69:30] you're part of him now i mean you two [69:33] have become one [69:34] you are in christ you are in him so much [69:37] he he puts all of his glory all of his [69:39] beauty [69:40] all of his righteousness strength [69:41] authority give me a thesaurus he's given [69:44] you [69:44] dude everything if he were to give you [69:47] any more [69:48] than he's already given it would be a [69:51] threat to the trinity [69:56] it have to be a quartet [70:00] you have been included you are destined [70:03] you're [70:03] predetermined to be like jesus christ [70:06] you're going to be like christ are you [70:08] hearing me [70:10] okay then take this like a man [70:13] everything you love about jesus [70:17] will be said about you [70:21] the father loves the son so much he's [70:23] going to fill the earth with people just [70:25] like him [70:26] he's the firstborn among many there's a [70:28] pattern a cornerstone [70:29] there's going to be the glorious son of [70:33] god in a corporate expression because [70:35] now the body [70:36] is christ christ is the body you have [70:38] the dna of god [70:41] you're a new species you're a 200 [70:45] human being god and dust and deity have [70:48] kissed [70:50] and then i'm concerned and then i find a [70:52] footnote in first peter 4 16 which says [70:55] in the passion translation the word [70:57] christian means anointed ones [70:58] christ is the anointed one and his [71:00] followers [71:02] are joined in life union to him we too [71:05] are anointed ones and so [71:10] that starts to be weird to me what do [71:12] you guys think of this [71:15] it is it is weird and it's it's more [71:18] than weird it's unhealthy [71:19] and it's it's linguistically and [71:21] historically inaccurate [71:23] so to take your acts example where the [71:26] followers of jesus are first called [71:28] christians to try to read [71:31] in messiah anointed one to christ [71:34] and then transfer that to christianoi [71:37] which we translate as christians [71:40] is the kind of mistake that you would [71:43] make if you don't understand how [71:45] languages work [71:46] and if you didn't understand the [71:48] historical context of acts [71:51] so what's actually going on there is [71:53] they're being called probably [71:54] derisively by the name of this figure [71:58] christ who's become known to some people [72:01] this this crucified so-called messiah [72:05] it's not a name of honor at least not [72:08] initially of course it's taken on that [72:09] way [72:10] so it's linguistically wrong it's [72:12] historically wrong [72:14] but once again you can understand there [72:15] might be a theological [72:17] desire to communicate to people what's [72:20] true of jesus because [72:22] he represents us as our mediator [72:25] he has paid for our sins he has taken [72:27] the curse for us [72:29] he's given us free and full forgiveness [72:31] and [72:32] the father has poured out every blessing [72:34] upon him is the one who's done this work [72:36] perfectly and now that comes to you as a [72:38] believer [72:39] of course that's a theological truth [72:41] that we see elsewhere in the new [72:42] testament and we want to affirm and we [72:44] want to rejoice in that [72:45] but that's not what's going on when you [72:47] have the term christian [72:49] not even posts yeah yeah [72:52] there's and there are definitely limits [72:54] like you would probably not agree with [72:55] the phrase [72:55] everything that can be said of jesus can [72:57] be said of you i mean that [73:00] that is taking it without sort of any [73:04] context uh looking at christ as he [73:06] stands on our behalf as he goes to [73:08] represent us before god and all that [73:10] but um instead it starts to feel like [73:11] there's identity confusion [73:13] yes that's right so um that my concern [73:18] there is that i [73:19] being someone who who's kind of been in [73:21] different camps in my christian walk [73:24] i read the text and i i now think in the [73:25] past translation i go oh [73:27] somebody else might pass this right over [73:29] but somebody who knows sort of [73:31] the more intense hyper or charismatic [73:35] groups would realize that this is now [73:37] going to be a preaching point [73:39] that because the lingo is placed in the [73:40] text it's like preaching points [73:42] for a particular sect a legitimate [73:44] christian group [73:46] but who has sort of particular beliefs [73:48] that are more um [73:49] unique are now read into the text you [73:52] mentioned in observation number eight [73:53] that [73:53] there's the softening of difficult ideas [73:55] what is that and where do you see that [73:58] in colossians here so i think dr bennett [74:01] spoke to that a bit already and he can [74:03] speak a little bit more to it perhaps [74:04] but i [74:05] i see that one of the one of the [74:07] features [74:08] of god's word is that it includes things [74:11] in it [74:12] that we that challenges our assumptions [74:15] and beliefs uh and and that's a good [74:18] thing because [74:19] god uses his word that is alive and [74:22] active [74:23] and pierces and divides uh a [74:26] truth and gets us moving forward in our [74:30] spiritual [74:31] walk our knowledge of god and it does [74:33] that by confronting [74:35] uh the way in which we do or think about [74:37] things [74:38] right and so that means that we're going [74:40] to come across things [74:41] in the in the scriptures that we [74:43] disagree with [74:44] and need to uh change our ideas about [74:47] them right i think [74:49] tim keller has a good way of speaking [74:50] about this he said would you not expect [74:53] that a a holy and transcendent and [74:55] majestic [74:56] god will have some aspects to him that [74:59] are surprising and sometimes [75:01] uncomfortable or different or unexpected [75:04] for you [75:05] and so if if you come to the scriptures [75:07] and everything is as you expect [75:10] then then you're seeing yourself in the [75:12] scriptures you're not seeing god and i [75:14] think the softening of ideas thing is [75:16] that [75:17] in order to make some of the uh biblical [75:19] truths that we hold [75:21] dear more palatable to people [75:24] brian has chosen a different approach to [75:27] to translating [75:28] these things and so for example i think [75:30] this is a good good one that [75:32] demonstrates that kind of idea [75:33] uh chapter 1 verse 20. so the greek's [75:36] very clear here that [75:37] it's a verb which means to make peace [75:40] and simmons has back to [75:41] in original intent restored to innocence [75:45] again and i've said that that is [75:47] partially true [75:48] in one sense if a result of forgiveness [75:53] is that there is a restoration of a [75:55] relationship [75:56] and right standing and that's that's [75:59] true [75:59] but the the fact that peace needs to be [76:02] made [76:03] implies that there was not peace [76:06] uh at first in fact there was enmity and [76:09] that's a very clear teaching of the [76:11] scriptures that we are at [76:12] enmity with god in our flesh because of [76:15] our sin against him [76:17] and so there's and there's a need for [76:19] peace to be made [76:20] there's a hostility that exists because [76:23] god [76:24] is holy and just and so [76:27] for transgressions and sin there is a [76:30] need for [76:31] forgiveness and so taking away that idea [76:34] starts to change [76:35] the way in which we speak about what it [76:37] is that jesus did so [76:38] this is not a harmless claim i i think [76:40] this is a pretty [76:42] major one maybe just another one uh in [76:45] in one of his double verses chapter 1 [76:47] verse 28 to 29 [76:49] there's a very obvious greek word for [76:52] warning [76:53] there and he's and he says that awaken [76:56] hearts [76:57] and those are two totally uh they're [77:00] different ideas there's a little bit of [77:01] overlap [77:02] in the sense that when we get a warning [77:03] we realize wait this is important and i [77:06] need to respond [77:07] but it is it is a warning in the sense [77:10] of there is impending judgment [77:12] whereas awakening hearts just means come [77:14] on guys get more excited about [77:16] jesus you know those are two different [77:18] ideas so [77:19] that's why i have an issue with that [77:21] kind of approach yeah now what concerns [77:23] me is [77:24] you can actually start to piece together [77:27] some of his [77:28] particular peculiar theological [77:30] positions [77:31] and preaching styles from his [77:33] translation [77:35] which i i mean ideally am i right dr [77:37] better to say that the translator wants [77:38] to be as invisible as possible like you [77:40] don't want to look at it and think [77:42] oh so and so translated that or this was [77:44] translated from this group or that [77:45] that perspective i think that's [77:48] i think that's largely the case yeah [77:50] that the translator [77:52] the translator's job and this is what [77:53] most translations are doing [77:56] is to accurately bring through an [77:58] understandable way [78:00] what's there in the original text so [78:02] that people can access that without [78:05] knowing that original language [78:06] and then on the basis of the good [78:08] translation they can have debates about [78:11] how to interpret it [78:12] uh so so i think that's exactly what you [78:14] i mean you have in other areas of life [78:16] you know when we go to school [78:18] and we're in high school literature [78:20] classes [78:21] our teacher might in an english class [78:24] use a different translation of [78:25] homer's odyssey to this one and it's [78:27] known as the fagles translation well [78:29] that's not because [78:30] it's what robert fagles thought homer [78:33] should have written [78:34] and he changes the words it's just [78:36] because he's done such a good [78:37] translation it becomes known and that's [78:38] that's not the kind of thing though that [78:40] we do when we translate [78:42] by invisible committee on uh on [78:45] on the issue of bible translation so i [78:48] think it's inappropriate [78:49] yeah and and i i just like that you you [78:52] highlighted the fact alex [78:53] that he's softening ideas there's these [78:55] sort of [78:56] uncomfortable aspects and we all are [78:58] aware that these are the very [79:00] things that are the hardest to swallow [79:03] in some of these teachings of scripture [79:05] that are all of a sudden just missing in [79:07] that place [79:08] and that's concerning that's concerning [79:10] um [79:11] you uh mentioned also i'm gonna go to [79:13] observation number 10 here where you [79:15] talk about failure to reference [79:16] authoritative [79:17] reference works what exactly is going on [79:20] there [79:21] what do you mean by that normally in [79:24] translation practice or scholarly [79:26] practice with original texts in [79:28] translation [79:30] the further you depart from [79:33] the accepted original meanings of words [79:36] for example [79:38] the more necessary it is to justify [79:41] your new spin on the translation [79:44] and given the fact that we've already [79:46] pointed out just how [79:47] significantly he's departing from every [79:50] other translation that's something [79:51] evidently he's wearing as a badge of [79:53] honor [79:53] you would expect that he would justify [79:57] how he's getting from a to b with this [80:00] translation but [80:01] as far as i can tell we don't see that [80:03] so normal [80:05] normal authorities that every new [80:07] testament greek scholar would [80:08] acknowledge [80:10] that you need to work with normal things [80:12] like [80:13] certain lexicons or dictionaries just [80:16] don't appear [80:16] at all as far as i can tell so you're [80:19] left to draw the conclusion i'm afraid [80:21] or i am [80:22] that uh that it's just something that he [80:25] wants to do to make a [80:27] poetic gloss perhaps on the english text [80:31] that he has in front of him rather than [80:33] a legitimate translation of the greek [80:34] text [80:35] and you also mentioned um in this paper [80:38] alex you mentioned that he's seems to be [80:41] using [80:42] strong's as a source [80:45] but it's hard to see how he's using say [80:48] what you would consider [80:49] typical lexicons more authoritative and [80:52] well-respected lexicons [80:53] now average people a lot of people are [80:55] just like strong's isn't strong's really [80:56] good could you explain [80:58] what the issue there is yeah i think dr [81:00] bennett could say a little bit more [81:01] about this but i would just say [81:03] you do you do not use stroms as a [81:06] because it's not an authoritative [81:08] lexicon it has been helpful for a lot of [81:10] christians over the years to go and get [81:12] a sense of basic meaning [81:14] in greek but there's been a tremendous [81:17] amount of development [81:19] in uh in scholarship and people were [81:22] doing very specific research just into [81:25] sometimes single words [81:26] over decades and the result of that is [81:29] it goes into [81:30] authoritative scholarly lexicons and [81:32] there's a reason that's [81:33] that strong's is basically free i mean [81:35] it's a it's a thick book [81:36] but you can get it for a couple of [81:38] dollars [81:40] sometimes you can second hand for a [81:41] dollar but and there's a reason for that [81:43] because [81:44] scholarly lexicons take so many decades [81:46] very careful work and [81:48] and so those are the things that you [81:49] want to be quoting but uh strong's [81:51] it it also indicates to me that he isn't [81:54] familiar with the scholarly world and [81:56] perhaps that's connected with the the [81:58] training [81:59] and so on because i've never come across [82:02] a [82:02] scholar referencing uh strong's as a [82:05] part of their argument so [82:07] i don't think that's exactly you [82:10] if i go if i go in uh you know for [82:13] pre-op [82:14] or surgery some kind of complicated [82:16] surgery that i'm going to need and i see [82:18] that the only book on my surgeon's shelf [82:21] is grey's anatomy okay at [82:24] one time that was a really valuable [82:27] resource and it's a kind of classic [82:29] now for its illustrations which look a [82:30] bit retro [82:32] but that is not the thing that i want my [82:34] surgeon [82:35] studying and quoting to me when he's [82:37] telling me how my heart surgery is going [82:39] to go forward i want to know that he's [82:41] been trained with the most [82:42] up-to-date tools possible so he [82:44] understands what he's talking about [82:46] and has taken advantage of the advances [82:48] but also the corrections that have been [82:50] made since the time of something [82:52] like grace or even early resource and [82:54] that's the impression that you get when [82:56] someone just cites strong strong is fine [82:58] as alex says it's free [83:00] i can remember in the days before i [83:02] learned greek [83:03] wanting to get my hands on every [83:04] possible bible study resource i could to [83:06] understand god's word better [83:08] and so you wouldn't blame you know [83:10] someone like that for reaching on the [83:12] shelf or strongs or youngs or other [83:14] old lexicons but a first year student [83:18] who cites strongs in the paper for me [83:20] this year is going to be fail for that [83:22] because [83:23] they've been taught that we have now [83:26] a lexicon in greek called bdag and they [83:28] know from my classes that bdag is the [83:31] gold standard it's been [83:32] updated and there's a lot of good [83:35] research based on new evidence that goes [83:37] into that [83:37] there are better word definitions and [83:40] glosses [83:41] if you want to get a little poetic and [83:42] you want to communicate it well b-tag is [83:44] the place to go to look for those [83:46] sources but that's nowhere cited here [83:48] the reason why this weighs in so heavily [83:49] is because on top of put all this [83:51] together [83:51] and then combine it with very murky [83:54] educational history [83:56] brian simmons claims that he's [84:01] studied but it's it's difficult to get a [84:02] solid claim about how much [84:04] training he's had in in one place he [84:07] might say you know [84:08] i'm not a scholar and he openly admits [84:10] i'm not a scholar and somewhere else [84:12] he he talks about what it takes to be [84:14] part of his passion project [84:15] and he says not only do you have to be [84:17] have a scholarly understanding of these [84:19] things you have to also have a passion [84:20] for god and you're like well wait [84:21] doesn't that make you a scholar then if [84:23] you're [84:23] the lead of the whole thing i had [84:26] brilliant leaders and men of god and [84:29] mighty [84:30] brainiacs tell me i had no business to [84:32] translate the bible because i was not a [84:34] greek scholar [84:35] he said where are your credentials who [84:37] do you think you are [84:38] when you when you started this project [84:41] um [84:41] were you had you already had training [84:44] in greek and hebrew or was this [84:47] something that [84:48] you had to jump into again or [84:51] i had minimal background in biblical [84:54] languages so [84:55] yeah it was something that honestly [84:58] something the lord has really helped me [84:59] with [85:00] um great i have learned a few languages [85:05] i'm a linguist i i have a crazy [85:08] delight in this kind of stuff i'm [85:10] writing a book that will be [85:11] entitled glorious eschatology it will be [85:13] a scholarly commentary on the book of [85:15] revelation [85:16] there are tremendous insights that come [85:19] when the aramaic text is placed [85:21] alongside of the greek [85:22] and it's a long arduous debate and i [85:25] don't want to get into that with you [85:27] i am a minority uh i'm among the [85:30] minority scholars that that believe [85:33] that the original autographs of the new [85:34] testament for the most part were written [85:37] in aramaic translated into greek [85:39] as i study the original manuscripts of [85:41] greek hebrew and aramaic [85:42] i have uncovered what i believe is the [85:45] love language of god [85:46] and it's been missing from many modern [85:48] translations [85:49] but beyond scholarly level [85:53] i think what qualifies a person to be [85:56] involved [85:56] in this monumental project of the [85:58] passion translation [86:00] is not just a exceptional understanding [86:03] of greek and hebrew [86:04] but to have a heart for god so it's [86:06] confusing uh there's no cv for brian [86:09] where you can actually look at [86:10] here's his degree from this school when [86:12] it comes to these things he has a [86:14] a a degree in uh uh [86:17] some sort of ministry i'm trying to [86:19] remember right now what it is i'll put [86:20] it on the screen for people a ministry [86:22] position with like a focus on prayer [86:23] that he got from the see peter wagner [86:25] school which is a which is a hyper [86:27] charismatic [86:28] school but that's not a language's [86:30] background [86:32] and and his previous involvement in the [86:34] piokuna translation he seems to have in [86:36] some places at least [86:38] greatly exaggerated how much work he did [86:40] there and so you add that to this [86:42] observations you're making about failing [86:43] to reference authoritative reference [86:45] works [86:46] and i mean i'm going to use my word it [86:49] looks fraudulent [86:50] the content looks fraudulent to me [86:54] yeah the fact adding together those [86:57] parts of the picture [86:58] and the idea of using strong's and so on [87:01] it [87:02] in my view it's almost like the most [87:05] likely candidate for how he's thought [87:07] about this is to look at it interlinear [87:09] online which has [87:10] uh you've got a running source of the [87:12] original text [87:14] and then a translation into english and [87:16] then gone and done some individual [87:18] work on various words and things and [87:20] then consulted things like strums and [87:23] added in his own verbs and nouns and [87:25] adjectives and all that kind of thing [87:27] and then kind of kind of reconstructed a [87:30] translation [87:31] uh and that's kind of the sort of thing [87:33] that you'd expect [87:35] you know with somebody referencing [87:36] strong's and so on instead of a b [87:38] and other reference words yeah i would [87:41] love to see an interlinear [87:43] version of the would passion translation [87:45] would be pretty remarkable [87:47] i think i thought about including [87:48] something about that in the paper is [87:50] that [87:51] you you actually wouldn't be able to do [87:52] an interlinear in in [87:54] large chunks of it because the words and [87:57] the phrases and the sentences [87:59] of places don't correspond at all to the [88:01] greek i think you didn't agree with that [88:04] there would be huge gaps and then [88:06] rearrangements it would be a mess [88:08] brian simmons has frequently claimed [88:10] that god gave him [88:12] supernatural empowerment a spirit of [88:14] revelation [88:15] and secrets of hebrew and greek and that [88:17] this translation represents those [88:19] secrets of hebrew and greek [88:20] one secret in particular he's actually [88:22] said this is the secret is [88:23] homonyms and this allows him to say [88:27] here's a here's a word here's a word [88:28] that you guys know this already but for [88:30] the audience here's a word [88:31] here's another word that sounds just [88:32] like it and then he'll take [88:34] the meaning of both of those and put [88:36] them in the text so this allows him to [88:37] double and triple translate [88:39] words this is something you've observed [88:41] in your observation number 11. [88:43] what are some examples of brian simmons [88:45] double and triple translating words [88:47] and is there any chance this is just him [88:50] being [88:51] brilliantly insightful and getting [88:52] secrets of the original language [88:58] sure so uh i think uh 126 [89:03] he revealed is a good [89:06] good translation there i think that's [89:08] that's fine [89:10] but then it starts adding uh unfolded [89:12] and [89:13] manifested so that one becomes a triple [89:15] translation [89:17] uh is one sense uh i [89:20] i think also with the four one as [89:24] lord in addition to to master because in [89:27] another place he [89:28] he translates a master as employer [89:32] but it would be kind of strange to have [89:33] to say the same thing about god in this [89:35] context [89:37] so we can we can talk about the the [89:39] homonyms as well [89:40] i think dr bennett can add to this but [89:43] that is more likely [89:44] in hebrew for the occurrence for there [89:47] to be homonyms because it's [89:48] the language is composed of root letters [89:51] and so you can get [89:52] different words with some of the same [89:54] rude letters [89:55] and so that that doesn't happen much [89:58] much less so in in greek [90:01] and i i think more what he's doing here [90:05] is he is [90:06] taking the various possible meanings [90:09] of one word and adding all of those [90:12] meanings together not the meanings of [90:13] two words that sound the same [90:15] but rather different meanings of one [90:17] word and then importing those in it [90:19] we have a technical term for that which [90:21] we call illegitimate totality transfer [90:24] and [90:24] just to break that down that means we [90:26] take [90:27] all of the possibilities or a good [90:29] number of the possibilities of what a [90:30] word could mean and then we just put all [90:32] of those in the text [90:34] but that's not how a language works [90:37] we have when i say i'm going to cross a [90:39] bridge [90:40] you know in the context of what we're [90:42] talking about that that means that i'm [90:43] walking across [90:44] an object constructed over water or an [90:47] obstacle or something [90:48] you're not going to tell me that what i [90:50] mean by bridge is the game that is [90:52] played by two people sitting the table [90:54] right so we don't take all the possible [90:57] meanings of every word [90:58] and put it into every sentence and [91:02] simmons seems to do that a lot here i [91:04] think that's going on so he's doing that [91:06] here and now [91:06] let me just speak to this is this this [91:08] is definitely not then a secret [91:10] of greek that's appearing with these [91:12] double and triple translating [91:14] of words that's going on no [91:17] it's not um we could you know alex is [91:20] throwing around some fancy terms we love [91:22] to use we like to make up [91:24] big big phrases in uh talking about [91:27] green but no [91:27] the short answer is as far as i can tell [91:30] you what he's doing here [91:31] is actually what a good effective [91:34] preacher does a lot of times [91:36] when you want to drive home a point so [91:38] if you want to say [91:40] reveal there's a is a key concept in [91:42] this verse 126 [91:44] and you want to help your people [91:46] understand that you start to use some [91:48] different synonyms but there's [91:49] absolutely nothing in greek [91:52] that signals that we would have to do [91:53] that here and i think it's interesting [91:56] and we can start to see the shape of [91:57] this just from what the work alex has [91:59] done [92:00] shows us it's interesting that he does [92:02] that particularly in certain places [92:04] which once again [92:05] seem to fit the pattern of theology that [92:07] you might have that you're describing [92:09] and he doesn't do it in other places [92:11] where you might also want to emphasize [92:13] things so it's [92:14] it's not just that i think he's um uh [92:17] he's at at times bringing in too many [92:20] slightly different meanings in the way [92:21] alex was talking about with his bridge [92:23] example [92:24] it's that he's just piling up synonyms [92:26] but he's doing that [92:27] as a poet or as a preacher rather than [92:30] as a translator [92:31] yeah now could you speak briefly to the [92:33] homonym issue that i did bring up [92:35] now it's hard to tell where he's doing [92:37] this with homonyms because from what i [92:38] can tell he doesn't supply footnotes to [92:40] tell you [92:41] so in some cases i think we're just when [92:43] you go [92:44] there's this extra phrase in that in the [92:46] verse i don't know where it came from [92:48] i'm thinking that in some cases this [92:49] comes from him thinking [92:50] well there's in just because of the [92:52] claims he's made there's an aramaic [92:54] word and that aramaic has a homonym and [92:57] the hominin means this and if i bring [92:58] that meaning into it then i'm going to [92:59] add an extra phrase to [93:01] unpack that meaning as well so the [93:03] footnotes don't really reveal this i [93:05] don't think he wants criticism [93:06] on this particular issue but uh is that [93:09] legitimate [93:10] um or or would you have anything to [93:12] comment on what i've just shared [93:15] uh no i don't think it's legitimate [93:17] translation technique i don't think it [93:18] gives us an effective translation [93:20] that's not something that in any [93:22] standard course of study [93:24] you would be taught to do with either [93:27] greek [93:27] or hebrew it is something however that [93:30] we've seen from time to time [93:32] in his history of texts over the [93:35] centuries and where we see it [93:37] is where you get people who are making [93:39] claims to secret knowledge [93:41] and to like to play a word association [93:44] game [93:44] and jump from one word to another and [93:46] then in some ways reverse engineer an [93:48] explanation [93:50] for how they got to the conclusion or [93:52] the the final point they wanted to get [93:54] to [93:55] and so you get this in in some forms of [93:58] jewish mysticism like kabbalah [94:00] you've seen it in some of the gnostic [94:02] traditions that alex mentioned earlier [94:04] but there's no there's actually no way [94:06] to um [94:08] you couldn't footnote because there's [94:09] nothing to put out there it's it's him [94:11] associating [94:12] and it's not standard linguistic [94:15] practice [94:16] another way to perhaps also think about [94:18] it is uh [94:19] if it were true that the i think he [94:21] explicitly said something along the [94:23] lines of it is [94:24] the it is this is the secret god [94:26] revealed to him of how [94:27] all prophetic revelation works or [94:29] something like that using using [94:31] hebrew and homonyms now when jesus came [94:33] to me [94:34] and said i'm going to give you secrets [94:36] one of the secrets he gave me [94:39] was uh that of homonyms you see when you [94:42] translate hebrew you're forced to say it [94:44] one way or the other [94:46] right well but it's both [94:51] the lord showed me it's the homonymic [94:54] structure of hebrew is going to be the [94:56] key to understanding revelation in the [94:58] last days including the book of [94:59] revelation which [95:00] you haven't got yet honestly if that [95:03] were the case [95:04] that would make it almost impossible to [95:06] to know what the meaning of any text is [95:08] because if everything was [95:09] uh homonyms then you'd and that means [95:12] you would have [95:13] an infinite number of combinations [95:14] across the whole of a text [95:16] and you could make 50 different texts [95:19] based on what the homonyms are [95:20] which is uh homonyms are if wherever [95:23] they [95:24] apply in the text are more [95:27] something that helps with interpretation [95:29] or if [95:30] puts emphasis on something a good [95:32] example might be [95:33] this one you'll probably all recognize [95:35] is uh in judges 15 [95:37] samson after taking out a thousand of [95:40] the philistines with a with a jawbone [95:43] he says uh with the with the jawbone of [95:46] a donkey [95:47] heap upon heap and what he means is i've [95:49] made this pile of body using this [95:51] jawbone and and the word for jawbone [95:53] has the same three-letter roots in [95:56] hebrew as the word for keep [95:58] so he's just he's making he's a playful [96:00] guy in chapter 14 he made riddles and so [96:02] on [96:03] so it's it's a it's a literary device [96:05] but it's not a translation device and i [96:07] think that's an important distinction [96:08] too [96:09] make well i think i think using even [96:12] using the term homonym is a bit [96:13] misleading [96:14] there uh you know it's maybe doing the [96:17] same kind of [96:18] work that everything about aramaic [96:21] manuscripts does [96:22] you could talk much more helpfully about [96:24] forms of word [96:26] play if that occur in any language but [96:28] you can still trace those in the way [96:30] alex just did with the hebrew text of [96:32] judges [96:33] you can point to shared roots and a [96:36] context [96:37] which helps you to pin down the meaning [96:39] and translate it carefully into the [96:41] target language [96:42] that's a different matter as far as i [96:44] understand it to what he's doing [96:46] here he's he's making associations in a [96:49] playful kind of way that reminds you [96:51] almost of what [96:53] some of the post-modern [96:54] deconstructionists do with texts [96:57] there's like that seed of truth okay [96:59] yeah homonyms do exist they occur in [97:01] some places but this isn't how that [97:03] works [97:04] the you know the thing you're appealing [97:06] to doesn't justify the thing you're [97:07] doing with it and that [97:08] that this happens when someone i think [97:11] is trying to [97:12] um pull i call pulling the greek over [97:15] someone's eyes [97:17] when they're trying to i mean we've seen [97:19] it if you learn as soon as you learn a [97:20] little bit of greek the first thing you [97:21] notice is how many people [97:23] only know a little bit of greek and in [97:25] sermons and messages they're [97:27] you know when they're like well this [97:28] particular greek word doesn't just mean [97:30] throw a ball [97:30] it means throw it as hard as you can [97:32] because you're angry or something like [97:34] that [97:35] and you go nah no that's not how it [97:37] works [97:38] so um yeah this is this is unfortunately [97:41] it's manipulative to people who are [97:43] trusting the man [97:44] to represent language properly this is [97:47] not the first time this has [97:48] happened i can think of example in [97:51] a mystical sufi islam for example they [97:54] actually use a phrase very similar to [97:57] what simmons does in terms of the love [97:59] language of god [98:01] and one of the the founding guys of that [98:03] uh ability [98:05] he was the 18th century mystic and [98:08] he had access to a lot of these early [98:12] third century diagnostic tests and he [98:15] would make [98:15] similar claims uh and and do things with [98:18] the language and say there's the secrets [98:20] behind them and things so [98:21] this is not the first time as dr [98:24] brittner pointed out that people have [98:25] made these kinds of claims [98:27] in history it's a it's a pattern that [98:29] repeats itself so on number 12 [98:30] observation number 12 [98:31] you say that on a number of occasions [98:34] simmons intentionally [98:35] overrides the clear meaning of the greek [98:38] text [98:38] can you explain the example you give you [98:40] give a few examples [98:42] but from colossians 3 6 on this issue [98:45] all right so uh 3-6 the the greek is [98:48] uh wrote again it's very simple easy to [98:51] translate [98:52] i would say something like because of [98:55] these [98:56] the the wrath of god is coming and then [98:59] i've gotten brackets there upon the sons [99:01] of [99:02] of disobedience but the the part that [99:04] matters here is [99:05] because of these the wrath of god is [99:08] coming [99:08] and he translates that as when you live [99:11] in these vices you ignite the anger of [99:14] god [99:14] against these acts of disobedience [99:19] and so uh what what it's clearly the [99:22] point here is that [99:23] because of these advices the greek is [99:27] saying that the wrath of god is coming [99:29] upon the people who commit there [99:31] is very clear from a context but he [99:33] rarely overrides that and says and [99:35] adds in against these acts [99:39] of disobedience because he seems to be [99:42] trying to avoid the idea that god's [99:43] wrath [99:44] might be deserved by people but law that [99:47] acts [99:48] but if we look at what the new testament [99:50] says about [99:52] god's wrath and the need for forgiveness [99:53] of sins but [99:55] god doesn't god doesn't punish the acts [99:58] themselves [99:59] people are what commitments the [100:01] implication almost comes across here [100:03] from simon says [100:04] that it's the acts themselves that are [100:06] going to get wrath and [100:08] need to be removed rather than that god [100:11] is going to pour our breath on on people [100:13] and i think there's no way of getting [100:14] around he has changed what the text is [100:16] saying [100:18] yeah now that corresponds to the talking [100:19] point i've heard from his circle [100:21] actually uh bill johnson has said this [100:23] like it's not that god's mad at you he's [100:25] just mad at the things that are hurting [100:26] you [100:27] um and i would say that there's i mean [100:29] there's a truth in that but that itself [100:31] isn't exactly true it's like not really [100:33] the whole story [100:34] and and here it's uh unfortunately being [100:37] placed into the text of scripture [100:39] so you also give an example of from [100:41] colossians 1 [100:42] verses 28 and 29 could you explain that [100:45] way [100:46] yeah this one was a pretty clear case of [100:50] directly overriding the text here [100:52] because again it's very clear [100:54] that the reason paul is writing [100:57] to the colossians i think dr brookman [101:00] can expand on this [101:01] as well is is to bring about by the [101:05] uh applying the word in the spirit that [101:08] they will be [101:09] presented mature in christ that this [101:12] word will have an effect [101:14] in them by the power of the spirit that [101:16] will increasingly conform them to the [101:18] likeness of their savior jesus christ [101:21] right so this is the grace of god [101:23] working in his people over time to make [101:25] him more and more [101:26] christ but he ends up changing it to say [101:29] to present [101:30] to every believer the revelation of [101:33] being his perfect one [101:35] and so what's changing in the meaning [101:36] here is not that the believer is [101:38] becoming more and more like christ [101:40] but that he's saying that a revelation [101:42] comes to them [101:43] that they are his perfect one now [101:47] we're not trying to comment [101:49] theologically and say that that's a [101:50] problem because in one sense it is [101:52] true that because of the work of jesus [101:54] christ we are made [101:55] we we have his righteousness so when god [101:58] looks at us [101:59] he sees the perfect works of his son [102:02] instead of the sins that we have [102:04] committed because jesus has paid for [102:05] that right so [102:06] we heartily want to affirm that and view [102:09] that as [102:09] really at the core of the gospel but is [102:12] that what paul is talking about here [102:15] no definitely not he's talking about the [102:18] ongoing way in which people are being [102:20] made more and more like jesus [102:22] so i think it's totally changing the [102:24] meaning of what paul is talking about [102:27] don't know that i have that much to add [102:29] other than amen to that i mean that's [102:31] he's he's completely switched it around [102:34] in the way that alex just described and [102:35] so [102:37] you know i i feel really i feel really [102:40] um i feel really passionate [102:43] as i look at this so-called passion [102:45] translation [102:46] that that is not going to communicate to [102:49] people [102:50] opening up their bibles or listening to [102:52] someone who's preaching from this text [102:54] what it is that the holy spirit through [102:56] paul is trying to communicate to them [102:58] here in this text god's saying he wants [103:02] to present [103:03] believers mature that he's at work by [103:05] his spirit in colossians especially of [103:07] all places [103:08] not just to give you revelation there's [103:10] no revelation in this text [103:12] no word that even comes close to [103:14] revelation but in the context what we've [103:16] got is something else that's [103:18] that's that's rich and that's missed [103:20] it's the [103:21] fullness of god offered in the knowledge [103:24] of christ [103:25] that is the thing that believers are [103:27] then being rooted and grounded in and [103:29] growing in spiritually [103:31] and that's been completely disfigured [103:34] by a translation that we read in this [103:37] case [103:38] let's look at observation number 13. uh [103:40] you mentioned inconsistency in [103:42] italicizing [103:43] additions or expansions um can you just [103:47] in a sentence explain like what's the [103:49] point of italics in the bible [103:51] and why do you have a problem with the [103:53] way they're not showing up [103:54] in places in the passion translation [103:57] sure i mean this is a relatively brief [103:59] point but simmons has said that when he [104:01] has supplied [104:03] new additional words to make something [104:06] more clear [104:06] or put an expansion that he would [104:08] italicize it so that you'd be aware and [104:10] i'm i'm thankful for that as an approach [104:14] there are some translations which do do [104:16] that [104:17] if they need to supply a noun to make a [104:20] sentence work in english or something [104:21] then they'll italicize it and i think [104:23] that's [104:24] that is that's commendable uh [104:27] the problem is you also don't want to [104:28] see italics everywhere because [104:30] that means that a lot more is going on [104:32] than just the translating [104:34] as we've mentioned however what i think [104:36] has happened here is there's a [104:38] good number of times and it happens in [104:40] almost [104:41] all of the books as far as i'm aware [104:43] that he's translated [104:44] is that there is material in there which [104:47] counts as one of those additions or [104:49] changes that he's made or expansions [104:51] that he doesn't italicize and i'm [104:53] definitely not going to [104:55] venture an opinion on whether that's [104:56] intentional or not it may just be [104:57] editorial [104:58] but it is very problematic because then [105:01] you don't know [105:02] look at this text is the is this brian [105:05] simmons [105:06] or is this paul i mean we have a problem [105:09] in a whole host of ways [105:10] as we've been talking about but i think [105:12] specifically here not having the italics [105:15] when he has actually added things is a [105:18] real problem [105:19] one of the things everybody really seems [105:20] to want to know about because we when we [105:22] talk about like aramaic and big broad [105:24] reaching issues [105:25] uh that takes a little bit for people to [105:27] kind of like think how is this really [105:29] affecting the translation [105:30] when i'm when i'm actually trying to [105:31] live it out so one thing people want to [105:33] know is like [105:33] what are some areas where the passion [105:35] translation has [105:36] changed like practical instructions like [105:39] where the bible applies to my life [105:40] and you give three areas where i think [105:42] this happens the the instructions and [105:44] colossians [105:45] between slaves and masters husbands and [105:47] wives and children and parents [105:49] so let me start with the first one how [105:50] has simmons translation [105:53] altered something really in in the [105:55] teaching on slaves and masters [105:57] well one of the things alex points out [105:59] in this paper is [106:00] that he opts for employees and employers [106:03] instead of slaves and masters [106:05] in 322 and then 4-1 and [106:09] again i think i can i can i have a guess [106:12] as to what's going on here [106:13] there are a lot of commentaries and a [106:15] lot of [106:16] pastors who will in both colossians [106:20] and similar texts in ephesians uh [106:24] trying to make this more relevant and [106:27] understandable [106:28] for people today by explaining it in [106:31] this way [106:31] there's a kind and there is that's [106:33] there's a kind of analogy [106:35] that works from ancient slavery to [106:38] ancient employment but to contemporary [106:40] employment [106:41] uh and we feel this when we go to work [106:43] someday but it's not a straight line and [106:45] it's not [106:46] that's an interpretation again that's a [106:48] commentary that's that sort of thing [106:50] is a claim that belongs to the [106:51] commentary where you're making an [106:52] argument about [106:54] how we moved from greco-roman culture to [106:57] 21st century [106:58] southern california culture or american [107:00] culture whatever it is that's our target [107:03] it's not a translation and the thing [107:05] that we miss then [107:06] is the strangeness of the translation [107:10] what we want is once again to be [107:12] surprised by and [107:14] slightly set [107:17] we want our attention peaked we want to [107:19] be [107:20] a little bit off balance when we hear [107:23] this ancient [107:24] text that's given to us in a fresh [107:27] accurate translation so that we can [107:28] ponder it [107:29] and with the help of god's spirit come [107:31] to understand what's he saying to us in [107:33] it [107:33] and so when i read slaves and masters my [107:36] first thought as a as a 21st century [107:38] american might be [107:39] oh that sounds a little bit like [107:40] southern slavery [107:42] in u.s history but then i can do before [107:45] thinking of course and realize that's [107:47] not either exactly what's going on here [107:49] and so maybe it sends me to a study [107:51] bible [107:51] maybe it sends me to my pastor maybe it [107:53] sends me to another resource [107:55] to try and understand what were the [107:57] dynamics between ancient slaves and [107:59] masters [108:00] and how are those similar but also very [108:02] different to what's going on [108:04] in for example an employee employer [108:06] relationship so [108:07] it doesn't belong in a translation even [108:09] though one might make an argument for it [108:11] as an analogy for application [108:13] yeah so one potential application of the [108:16] text has become the translation [108:18] of the text which has removed the [108:20] initial or [108:21] original meaning of the text and [108:22] replaced it um what about [108:24] the teaching between husband and wives [108:26] how has since represented that in [108:27] colossians [108:29] this is a this is an example of the [108:31] problem [108:32] that he faces when he comes across [108:34] something that perhaps he doesn't [108:35] exactly like the idea of or wants to [108:37] soften the idea [108:38] and so he makes an appeal to a resource [108:42] a language resource [108:43] that is really problematic now this is [108:45] something that if i [108:47] if i back in in first year greek or [108:50] something i was asked to do a word study [108:51] on [108:51] i could do this in two minutes no [108:53] problem really straightforward [108:56] and you'd see the results would be so [108:58] first uh [108:59] what we're talking about here yeah tell [109:01] us tell us the word that he's [109:02] in your opinion translating wrong here [109:04] what is it i'll do that so in in [109:06] chapter three verse 18 the greek is [109:09] submit yourselves [109:10] to your husbands all right and the the [109:12] greek is hupatasa [109:14] this is uh so i'll read you the trans [109:16] the uh meaning that's given directly by [109:18] vdag that authoritative reference work [109:21] which is to subject oneself [109:25] to be subjected or subordinated or to [109:28] obey for example that's [109:30] that's one of its meanings listed there [109:32] it's and it's lists [109:33] uh data lists that have a meaning in [109:35] this context [109:38] so simmons puts a footnote here [109:41] and uh this is really i found this kind [109:43] of somewhat humorous because [109:45] it's it's strange he he says that [109:48] kupataso [109:48] can mean attached uh [109:52] but the problem is the word attached [109:54] there is in its meaning [109:56] in beta is to to add a document at the [109:59] end of another document i.e to attach [110:01] or staple or append so clearly paul [110:04] doesn't have in mind here [110:06] a husband and wife being stapled right [110:09] so that he he actually doesn't seem to [110:12] understand [110:12] how a lexicon works and how the meanings [110:15] of words work you can't just say oh one [110:17] possible meaning is this [110:18] therefore that's that's what it means [110:20] here yeah so ultimately [110:22] it seems that he's he's taken what is a [110:24] very obvious meaning that kind of [110:25] everybody [110:26] we know what this means let's talk about [110:28] how it applies let's carefully [110:29] understand it in context and all that [110:30] but we know what the word means [110:32] um and he's replaced it with a meaning [110:34] that seems [110:35] illegitimate and i i can tell you from [110:37] having listened to many many hours of [110:39] his content [110:40] he's extremely interested in [110:43] changing uh the churches or guiding the [110:46] church's perceptions on the role of [110:47] women both in [110:48] marriage and in churches and he would [110:50] say he has a very egalitarian view [110:53] ladies are you sitting down it says [110:56] women wives submit to your husbands [110:59] right [111:00] the greek language indeed says submit [111:03] what if the original text was written in [111:06] aramaic [111:06] and translated into greek and they [111:08] missed it a little bit here's the [111:10] aramaic text [111:11] what makes some men mad here i just [111:13] ruined your abuse system of your wife [111:15] here you [111:16] stop it but it says that [111:20] wives be tenderly devoted to your [111:22] husband [111:23] as the church is tenderly devoted to [111:25] christ just that should sell the passion [111:27] translation just that one verse [111:30] you know you should get it just for that [111:32] come on ladies [111:33] women of god rise up and and and silence [111:36] all these critical know-it-alls that say [111:38] women should never do those things [111:40] oh yeah make them look like idiots i [111:42] dare you ladies [111:44] come on challenge this religious spirit [111:46] that says women can't [111:48] teach women can't pastor women can't [111:50] prophesy women can't [111:51] what does this women can't stop how come [111:54] it's always the men saying that by the [111:55] way [111:56] anyway you got me on my high horse [112:01] now i don't actually care what his view [112:03] is there i just care [112:04] that his view isn't causing him to [112:06] change the bible [112:08] in that regard and that seems to be [112:10] what's happening here is that right [112:12] that's exactly right as far as i'm [112:13] concerned i mean it's it's just [112:15] completely irresponsible translation [112:17] this is basic [112:19] arithmetic when it comes to translating [112:21] this this greek in this context [112:23] and so the only explanation i can think [112:25] of is that you want it to mean something [112:27] different [112:27] and so you are translating it in this [112:30] way [112:30] and as you say fine perhaps from other [112:34] texts or for other reasons he wants to [112:37] put forward a different view of the [112:39] bible's teaching on marriage but you [112:40] can't do that from this [112:42] text that's not what it means here and [112:44] even [112:45] i mean this is fascinating so those of [112:47] us who who [112:49] love god's word and want to submit to [112:50] god's word even though it's not [112:52] culturally acceptable in certain ways [112:54] anymore [112:55] or it's the maybe not the dominant view [112:58] uh we're we're pointing out that in this [113:01] case for example [113:02] it means to be subjected to to be [113:05] subordinated to [113:06] to obey that's the meaning of the word [113:08] and we realize we've got to grapple with [113:11] the implications that follow and the [113:13] debates that follow if we want to say [113:15] this is god's word not just paul's word [113:18] and so we can't [113:19] we can't relativize it i would have [113:22] agreement if i were sitting here with a [113:24] feminist liberal scholar [113:26] who didn't agree with me that this is [113:29] god's word but she would look at the [113:31] same word in the same text and say [113:33] there's no way you can translate it in [113:34] any other way and that's why she [113:36] or he might not like what paul's saying [113:39] here [113:40] so people from very different [113:41] ideological backgrounds [113:43] would translate this responsibly in the [113:46] way that most translations do [113:48] not in the way we see in the passion [113:49] translation right yeah we want to [113:52] relegate our theological discussions [113:54] post-translation instead of [113:56] pre-translation and that's [113:58] and that's what he's done in many cases [114:00] with with texts especially [114:01] as they relate to women i i think he [114:03] feels as though he's being [114:04] a champion for the cause of women but i [114:06] have a feeling that women want to know [114:07] what the bible actually says [114:10] and not and not have some sort of agenda [114:12] pushed on to it [114:14] we sure want them to know yeah yeah [114:17] now on children and parents uh what was [114:20] your observation there [114:22] this is another example just again a [114:24] straightforward issue of his [114:26] uh how he does his work in greek [114:29] there is no other way to to translate [114:32] what this means [114:33] the greek word here in chapter 3 verse [114:35] 20 [114:36] children obey your parents it's [114:39] and that that means to follow [114:42] instructions [114:43] to obey uh to be subject to that's [114:46] that's without doubt and it says here [114:49] see this uh [114:50] he double translates it with both words [114:52] incorrectly as [114:53] respect and pay attention to now one of [114:56] the ways in which children respect their [114:57] parents is to obey them [114:59] but we all agree that those are those [115:01] words have different ideas even if [115:03] there's some kind of connection [115:05] it really softens the idea that children [115:07] are to be subject [115:08] to their parents and that is something [115:10] that if you read the book of proverbs [115:13] you'll see is a key part of the way in [115:15] which god blesses children they're [115:18] they're instructed [115:19] and they grow and they're blessed by the [115:22] teaching [115:22] and instructions of their parents and so [115:24] i think that's not up for negotiation [115:26] no i agree and if if somebody was [115:30] telling my teenagers or my younger [115:33] children [115:34] on the basis of this text that it's [115:35] sufficient for them to tell me you know [115:37] what dad i respect you i'm paying [115:39] attention to what you say [115:40] but i'm not going to do what you say [115:42] they would have it wrong [115:43] because there's a difference there what [115:45] the text says is you have to obey your [115:47] parents [115:48] not just merely respect and pay [115:50] attention to [115:51] yeah so you what what i'm trying to [115:54] point out here is [115:55] uh particularly in our culture husbands [115:57] and wives children and parents [115:58] this is this is actually altering the [116:00] way we apply the bible into very [116:01] important relationships in our lives [116:03] and i think that god wrote what he wrote [116:06] and we have no [116:07] right to alter any of that stuff um you [116:10] can [116:10] you can follow it or not to you but yeah [116:14] that's what it says so [116:15] in your paper you also give a list of uh [116:18] 10 i believe it's 10 verses in [116:19] colossians [116:20] where simmons quote makes speculative [116:23] theological interpretations [116:25] either transforming the meaning of the [116:26] text or [116:28] adding his own ideas into it unquote [116:31] people can read your paper and they can [116:33] go through all 10 examples if they want [116:34] but can you please explain the example [116:36] from colossians [116:37] 3 16. i thought that was really [116:39] insightful this is where simmons [116:42] handles the phrase spiritual songs but [116:44] he translates it as [116:46] prophetic songs what were your thoughts [116:48] on that [116:50] yeah so so he says [116:53] there's a word there for spiritual in [116:56] greek [116:57] and of its ways of thinking about what [116:59] it can mean [117:01] nowhere in that range of ideas at all [117:04] is the idea of prophecy there is [117:07] no nothing connected with that at all [117:10] and so [117:11] this is an example of where he has [117:13] imposed something [117:15] on on the text there that he wanted to [117:17] say [117:18] my understanding is this is connected to [117:22] a spontaneous types of worship that [117:25] uh that involve an element of prophecy a [117:28] god [117:28] speaking through a person saying [117:30] something that god plans to do [117:31] or something like that but that is that [117:34] is not [117:35] the context in which this is being [117:38] spoken [117:39] issue here is the nature of the speech [117:41] yeah the nature of the speech so [117:43] let me let me hammer this home because i [117:44] think it's really important [117:46] uh in brian simmons commentary on the [117:48] song of songs he has the following [117:50] phrase [117:51] the power of prophetic song prepares [117:54] hearts for harvest [117:55] the new thing god is unfolding will [117:58] require new songs to be sung [117:59] the seasons of singing and dancing the [118:02] season of singing and dancing is here [118:04] what i'm suggesting here is that brian [118:06] simmons presents prophetic songs [118:08] as a key to end times revival [118:13] brian simmons then unjustifiably inserts [118:16] the phrase prophetic songs into [118:18] colossians [118:19] which then creates a platform for a [118:22] teaching [118:23] he's bringing with him to the text of [118:24] scripture and this is the kind of thing [118:27] we see happening with the passion [118:28] it's not just um [118:32] well that wasn't quite accurate in [118:33] addition to that there is like [118:35] no there's like a theological agenda [118:37] that seems to be in place here [118:39] which is which is why i'm trying to make [118:40] a big deal about this this whole thing [118:42] with the passion [118:43] project bringing you guys on to share [118:45] your thoughts on this so yeah [118:46] that was why that example stood out to [118:47] me because i'm going wait a minute i've [118:49] he's talked about prophetic songs a lot [118:51] and guess what now he's got a scripture [118:52] to prove that he's right [118:54] but it's an interesting connection [118:56] because [118:58] in addition to being just flat out wrong [119:01] in terms of [119:02] the greek translation it's also [119:04] problematic in the [119:05] in the contextual use so it's not just [119:08] that linguistically we can say that this [119:10] is not possible but contextually it's [119:12] obviously not the case because he's [119:13] contrasting [119:14] this to other types of speech and [119:17] remember that [119:18] if colossians as a whole is paul is [119:20] right [119:21] and uh he's he's teaching doctrine about [119:24] christ that can [119:25] correct the the ways in which things [119:27] have been going wrong for the colossians [119:28] that has affected the way that they've [119:30] lived their lives [119:31] affected the way they relate to one [119:33] another affected the things that they [119:35] say and do and so he's trying to correct [119:38] those through this text what prophecy [119:41] has to do with any of that [119:42] anyone's guess so as you say it seems to [119:45] have just been oh this is an opportunity [119:46] for me to put this prophetic songs idea [119:50] yeah it's fascinating for me to listen [119:53] to this and hear you [119:54] decode the passion translation [119:57] for me um because effectively that's [120:00] what it sounds like is going on here [120:02] that there are some coded phrases [120:04] that he is inserting without any [120:07] justifiable warrant [120:08] in the original text in order to trigger [120:12] a kind of reaction or agreement from [120:14] people with [120:15] with his theology of course that's [120:17] really dangerous but it also does the [120:19] thing alex just points out [120:20] it misses that what's going on in this [120:23] verse in 316 [120:24] we want we want the word of christ that [120:26] is the word that christ has given [120:28] through his [120:29] of his apostles the first century [120:31] apostles whose writings we have [120:33] and if we're talking prophets let's talk [120:35] about the old testament prophets who [120:37] also maybe call [120:38] psalms that we have in the old testament [120:40] written down for us [120:42] call those spiritual songs we want we [120:45] want the bible to dwell in us richly [120:47] so that god can use his word inside us [120:50] to remake us [120:51] and to keep us from error keep us from [120:53] living in ways that displease him [120:55] that's not anything to do with uh what [120:57] you just described that most people [121:00] from that certain background would [121:02] understand when they read prophetic [121:04] songs which is [121:05] not what the text says yep [121:08] that's it that's it right there all [121:10] right you also offer [121:11] this is observation 16 uh sectarian [121:13] theological ideas [121:15] you offer five different examples of [121:16] places where simmons ads [121:18] which you call sectarian theological [121:20] light we're already talking about this [121:21] with the prophetic songs that's [121:23] it's not the point isn't whether it's [121:25] true or false the point is [121:26] it's sectarian as it as in it comes from [121:28] a sect it's not from christianity as a [121:30] whole it's from a particular sect [121:32] and it's a theological idea that's now [121:33] being imported into text [121:36] one of them that struck me though of all [121:37] five was colossians 1 [121:39] 2 what did he add there and we kind of [121:42] mentioned it earlier but let's highlight [121:43] it now [121:44] when we use the word sectarian this is [121:47] not [121:48] meant to be uh to write a divisive or uh [121:51] derogatory in any way what we're simply [121:53] it's simply an adjective that [121:55] that describes that this is a this is a [121:57] teaching that's associated with a [121:59] particular group [122:00] of people like we have different groups [122:02] in christianity who believe [122:04] slightly different things about some [122:06] things and sometimes very different [122:07] things about others [122:09] but so what we mean here is that the [122:11] terminology that he's using [122:13] is related to what you might describe as [122:16] his own set that has their own [122:20] language certain terms that they use and [122:23] the problem with that is he hasn't just [122:25] written this [122:27] for that group of people he's written [122:29] he's done the passion translation [122:31] for the whole world and what you end up [122:33] doing when you use [122:34] terms that only you and your group tend [122:37] to use [122:38] is that it excludes everybody else [122:42] from the the actual meaning that they [122:43] would take if they had the right [122:45] translation so i think that's [122:46] problematic [122:49] just in the first place but here again [122:52] to mention that idea of releasing [122:54] it is it is something that we just don't [122:57] have that [122:58] verbal idea in the greek text for the [123:01] ways in which the new testament talks [123:03] about things like [123:04] forgiveness or peace or grace or things [123:06] like that [123:07] it has this mystical idea of a substance [123:11] or a realm i know [123:14] in the theological circles he's in this [123:17] a lot of discussion of [123:18] changing atmospheres and [123:22] releasing anointings and these are these [123:24] are ideas that seem to be [123:26] disconnected from the ways in which the [123:28] new testament talk about those things so [123:30] that's why i think [123:31] it's a problem to use phrases like [123:33] releasing when that's just connected [123:35] with his particular group [123:37] yeah i know okay on a personal level [123:39] like pastorally i've kind of had a [123:42] concern for many years when i enter into [123:45] a church group [123:46] and they have a lot of like buzz words [123:49] that frame [123:50] their understanding of spiritual things [123:51] and christian sort of [123:53] revival perhaps and these words don't [123:56] have their root in scripture [123:58] not not just the words but rather the [124:00] idea itself you're going is that idea [124:02] even biblical [124:03] you know like where's that idea coming [124:05] from but it seems core to their concept [124:07] of revival [124:08] and so the concern here is that like [124:10] releasing i'm releasing over you this [124:12] i'm releasing over you that this is a [124:13] big buzz word for brian's movement [124:16] but now it's in the scriptures now it's [124:19] placed in the bible and [124:20] and it's earlier we talked we said that [124:22] the word itself [124:23] isn't in colossians 1 2. it's added by [124:25] brian simmons [124:26] now we're talking about not just the [124:27] presence of a word but the presence of a [124:29] concept [124:30] that's foreign to scripture being added [124:33] and that's a different thing altogether [124:34] and so you have a list of [124:35] several examples of this kind of thing [124:36] that you give there that we should be [124:38] aware of [124:39] um it's hard to reform to [124:42] solo scriptura to what go back to the [124:44] text right back to the [124:46] what the scripture says when the [124:47] scripture is being adapted to fit your [124:49] sect your particular group let's talk [124:52] about [124:52] basic grammatical errors now you [124:55] discovered several bait what you call [124:57] basic grammatical errors [124:58] if you could just really quickly just [125:00] kind of like shotgun us through several [125:02] examples [125:03] of where brian simmons has made these [125:04] this goes towards his basic [125:06] credibility as well um as someone who [125:09] should be trusted [125:10] with handling being the lead translator [125:13] of a whole bible translation yeah sure [125:16] i'll mention briefly a couple and i [125:18] think uh dr brennan can talk just a bit [125:20] a little bit about [125:21] grammatical skill in general and how [125:23] that what we see being displayed in [125:25] simon's translation [125:28] the thing is that when you start [125:29] learning a language newly freshly at a [125:32] basic level a lot of what you will focus [125:35] on [125:35] is some some basic rules for how the [125:38] language [125:38] it works as a whole and then at a micro [125:41] level how sentences can be constructed [125:44] how what phrases mean and what they do [125:46] and then of course what [125:48] words mean how they fit into sentences [125:50] and it just seems to [125:51] me that some of these basics [125:54] don't show up in the way in which uh [125:58] simmons translates things so [126:01] the first one i've got here is an [126:02] example in chapter one verse five [126:05] uh in greek the idea of how this [126:09] particular phrase works is that it [126:11] explains what something is [126:13] so when it says uh the word of truth [126:17] uh it is namely meaning this word of [126:19] truth that we're talking about [126:20] is the gospel it's explaining what that [126:23] is [126:24] but he he makes it become an adjective [126:28] and says it's the truth of the gospel uh [126:31] rather we're saying the truth that we're [126:32] talking about is the gospel [126:35] now of course we affirm the gospel is [126:37] true i'm just saying grammatically [126:39] uh he is he changes it around one of the [126:41] examples that alex [126:43] points us to is in three nine where uh [126:46] where simmons has lay aside your old [126:50] adam's self as an instruction um [126:53] and and there's something also strange [126:55] going on in the footnote there he says [126:57] well i translate from the greek the [126:59] aramaic actually have imperative [127:01] but what he has given us in english is [127:02] an imperative it's a command [127:04] and what you should what you should see [127:07] in a good translation just there [127:09] is that we're being given the grounds by [127:12] which we can stop speaking falsely [127:14] actually that this is because you have [127:16] since you have put off the old man this [127:19] is something [127:20] that points us to what god's already [127:22] done for us [127:23] in christ as the basis that gives us the [127:25] spiritual ability and power [127:27] to do the command that precedes it but [127:30] by changing it he's actually giving you [127:32] a series of commands [127:33] and i'd say he's kind of stripped away [127:36] the good news that empowers us [127:38] to fulfill the commands that we have [127:39] been given [127:41] and so and your criticism here if i [127:43] understand it right is [127:45] he seems to in the footnote rightly [127:47] acknowledge [127:48] that it's it's one way in the greek it's [127:51] another way in the aramaic [127:52] he says he's translating the greek but [127:54] he translates it the aramaic way [127:56] and it's and it and it makes it [127:59] imperative [128:00] instead of uh a statement of fact [128:04] yes i think so that he says he's got an [128:07] air american photo i never make [128:08] something in front of him i don't know [128:09] what that is [128:10] or if there exists anything but uh he he [128:13] says [128:14] that's an imperative but i'm looking at [128:16] the greed [128:17] well as i look at the greek it's not an [128:19] imperative [128:21] what it is instead it should be [128:22] translated in a way that [128:24] conveys the sense of because or since [128:27] this is [128:28] true it's it's a participle actually [128:32] and we hardly ever have participles that [128:34] act as imperatives and certainly not [128:36] this one in this context so what you [128:37] lose there [128:39] practically is that all the commands [128:41] that have been given in verse 7 [128:43] and verse 8 prior to that [128:46] uh put away what put off these things [128:48] bits of rage hatred cursing [128:51] filthy speech all the rest those are [128:53] meant to be understood as grounded in [128:55] the fact that [128:56] you can do this because you've put off [128:59] the old man when you were united to [129:01] christ by faith [129:02] and this is possible because of the work [129:05] of christ on your behalf [129:06] instead what we get from simmons is just [129:09] another thing to do [129:10] so it's up to you to lay aside the old [129:13] adam [129:14] as i read him there and that i think is [129:16] a serious result [129:17] of the mistranslation here we've got now [129:19] um observation 19. [129:21] and this one i thought was extremely [129:23] helpful [129:24] this is about how it i'm going to put it [129:27] in my words and please [129:28] correct them and just summarize this for [129:30] the audience if you would but i think [129:31] this is about how simmons has [129:32] effectively erased [129:34] the style of the biblical authors and [129:37] kind of replaced it overwritten it with [129:38] his own style so it's almost as though [129:40] he's the author of all these letters [129:42] could you unpack that or even disagree [129:44] with me if i've overstepped it at all [129:47] sure again dr panel can speak a bit to [129:50] the nature of disciplinary literature [129:52] these the what these [129:54] letters are like i would just say to [129:56] give a clear example [129:59] if if i write a a birthday [130:02] letter to my mother and and mail it off [130:05] uh to the uk [130:07] she's gonna open that and she is gonna [130:09] read he's gonna [130:10] know that i'm the person who wrote it [130:12] because of the words that i use the way [130:14] i [130:15] i say things there will be phrases that [130:17] are that she can recognize and she's [130:19] gonna [130:19] my imprint is gonna be on that later you [130:22] know what we get this all the time with [130:24] my wife right because [130:25] if i'm busy and she's texting from my [130:27] phone i give her the words to use [130:29] because she just texts different and [130:31] she'll add more smiley faces and stuff [130:33] and i'm like no [130:34] just she goes just say yep that's the [130:36] whole text and i'm like yes that's the [130:37] whole text just say yep [130:39] and she would never do that and so it's [130:40] like yeah it's ours it's kind of our [130:41] style of speaking yeah [130:43] right and if i called my friend over the [130:46] phone and said [130:47] please write a birthday letter to my [130:48] mother and mail it off i mean she's [130:50] immediately going to recognize hey [130:51] listen [130:52] although he's communicating this similar [130:54] thing happy birthday and i love you and [130:56] so on [130:57] it is not coming from me and it's not [130:59] the words that i've written [131:01] it's my friend's idea about what i had [131:03] said right now [131:04] and i think that that is uh conceptually [131:06] what's going on [131:08] going on here once again if we take i [131:12] mean if we [131:12] if we begin from the assumption that [131:15] this is not just [131:16] paul's word but it's god's word written [131:18] through paul delivered through paul by [131:20] the holy spirit [131:22] then we also have to think about the [131:24] fact that the holy spirit [131:26] formed the apostle paul to be the person [131:30] that he was [131:31] from the time he was formed in the womb [131:33] from the time he was born [131:35] through his schooling the way he learned [131:37] to write greek and [131:39] use certain phrases in certain ways and [131:41] that the holy spirit formed him in [131:43] just the right way that he wanted to [131:45] form [131:46] god used paul as an instrument to take [131:49] the gospel out to the nations [131:51] and to write it down for us [131:54] god did not form brian simmons or any [131:57] other bible translator [131:58] in that kind of special way because [132:02] brian simmons is not an apostle like [132:04] paul [132:05] is an apostle neither am i neither [132:07] there's anybody who sits on a [132:08] translation committee [132:09] and so what we lose is not just an [132:12] interesting note of this is paul's style [132:14] this is simmons style we lose the holy [132:17] spirit's [132:18] pauline style and what he wants to say [132:21] clearly through paul to us i think [132:22] that's [132:23] for me the real issue yeah wow wow [132:26] that's [132:26] to me that's really eye-opening it's [132:28] like what what is the some of the [132:29] cumulative [132:30] effect of all these changes across all [132:32] these various books of the bible [132:34] so let's talk a little bit about your [132:36] conclusions now um [132:38] if you could just in a short summary if [132:41] the average person average christian [132:42] walks up to you they say hey alex [132:44] dr bittner i've got this passion [132:48] translation [132:49] my friend gave it to me i read some [132:50] verses my favorite verses in it and [132:52] it's just like really coming alive to me [132:54] you know but i don't know i heard some [132:55] weird stuff online there's this mike [132:57] winger guy [132:58] who seems to be a critic of this thing [132:59] but i don't know if he speaks [133:01] you know the truth or not so what would [133:03] you say what are your [133:04] just your summary conclusions about the [133:06] passion translation for everybody to [133:07] hear [133:09] i think just pastorally you'd want to [133:11] say it is it is a really great thing to [133:13] be excited by god's word [133:15] and excited about about growing in [133:17] knowledge of it and enjoyment of it and [133:19] loving god [133:20] more thoroughly that is that is [133:22] something that you never want to crush [133:24] but god has also given us the way in [133:26] which that is best accomplished and [133:27] that's through [133:28] his word and by his holy spirit [133:31] that creates faith in our hearts when we [133:34] hear the truth [133:35] and i think simmons has so radically [133:38] altered [133:40] the text of scripture that what you have [133:42] is not [133:43] scripture in your hands it contains [133:45] scriptural truths [133:46] it contains many of the ideas that the [133:48] bible communicates [133:50] but what you're holding in your hands it [133:52] does not qualify as scripture [133:55] dr bittner if someone asked me what i [133:59] thought about the passion translation [134:01] and they were getting excited about it [134:03] uh like alex i'd want to say i'm so [134:06] so excited for you that you're opening [134:08] up god's word that you want to read that [134:10] but what you have in your hands is not a [134:12] good translation of god's word [134:13] it's a it's passionate it's poetic but [134:16] it's not a translation [134:18] and if you really want to hear god [134:19] speaking to you you need to put that [134:21] down [134:21] and you need to go pick up any of [134:24] another [134:25] number of other translations and we can [134:27] talk about great translations that are [134:29] there [134:30] but that is not the one to be reading if [134:32] you want to hear [134:33] clearly what it is that god has been [134:35] saying to his people for 2 [134:36] 000 years and continues to say freshly [134:39] to us [134:40] it's just not a good translation [134:43] now in your opinion gentlemen do you [134:45] think the pastor translation should be [134:47] on the shelves of [134:48] stores and christian bookstores or [134:52] wherever so i i thought about this a [134:55] little bit i'm [134:56] as a as an advocate of a an unregulated [135:00] market in the sale of goods and services [135:02] i think [135:03] individual businesses should have the [135:04] rights to sell what they choose to [135:06] if i was a bookstore or [135:10] thinking about a theological library or [135:11] something uh [135:13] absolutely not it is it misrepresents [135:16] what it is in a very material sense [135:19] and so whilst a book show a bookstore [135:22] might have it on its shelf [135:24] i really do not think that a christian [135:26] should have it on their shelf upon them [135:29] yeah i like that as well i mean i don't [135:31] really i'm not looking at [135:32] i'm not a band books kind of person but [135:36] when you group them together as here's a [135:38] group of [135:39] bible translations it seems like this [135:40] shouldn't be on that shelf at least [135:42] you know to call it like a translation [135:44] as you guys have made pretty clear [135:46] um now here's a question i've received [135:48] several times i'd like to get your guys [135:50] thoughts on this which is [135:51] could somebody become a christian if the [135:54] only bible they have was the passion [135:55] translation and [135:56] and they read it could it be used in [135:58] leading people to christ would it be a [136:00] faithful guide to [136:01] to lead them to salvation [136:06] there are a lot of things that god can [136:08] do in less than ideal circumstances [136:10] so i would i wouldn't want to preclude [136:12] that but i think if i can go back to an [136:14] analogy i tried to make earlier [136:16] could could my heart surgery be [136:18] successful if my surgeon had only [136:21] been using grey's anatomy or a very [136:23] outdated [136:24] and and in need of updating kind of [136:27] resource [136:28] i wouldn't want to trust myself to that [136:30] i really wouldn't [136:31] so i i'm not going to say god can't do [136:34] miracles he does them all the time in [136:36] changing [136:37] dead sinners into alive saints but i [136:41] don't [136:41] think uh i don't think this is [136:44] a resource that i would want to give any [136:46] good scans [136:47] and i i really agree with that i think [136:50] god [136:51] can do anything accomplish anything that [136:53] that's according to his world [136:55] i i would say that in reading the [136:57] passion translation i've read [136:58] large sections of it not just colossians [137:01] in it you don't find any claims like oh [137:05] denying the trinity or denying that [137:08] jesus [137:09] is the one in whom we must have faith [137:11] and that we need salvation [137:12] and so on so there's certain elements [137:15] which are true [137:16] and can be used in sharing the gospel [137:20] but it is it is so defaced as the [137:22] scriptures [137:24] that uh i certainly wouldn't recommend [137:26] in any way [137:27] being used in evangelism or anything [137:29] like that yeah it [137:31] it almost feels to me like the question [137:33] while valid [137:35] it leaves so much unsaid it's kind of [137:36] like saying can an abusive [137:38] parent still raise a physically healthy [137:42] child and you're like well yeah they [137:44] could [137:45] but we're sort of not talking about the [137:47] important part here [137:48] at this point and it's the same thing [137:50] you know it's like could i survive if i [137:52] eat out of the garbage [137:53] well yeah you'll survive but it's not [137:55] like it's not good [137:56] you don't want that and so the pastor [137:59] translation may [138:00] may well lead someone to the true gospel [138:02] um [138:03] but but that's not the only function of [138:05] scripture it's the whole revelation of [138:07] god's word and so there's so much more [138:08] there [138:09] that we need so yeah maybe as a [138:11] follow-up to the last question i'll ask [138:12] this that [138:13] what you know other than just salvific [138:16] questions what effect do you [138:18] suppose the passion translation might [138:19] have on a person who [138:21] reads it as their main bible [138:26] i i have to i've said not read any more [138:29] than colossians [138:30] uh in the passion translation but on the [138:32] basis of colossians alone [138:35] i think they are going to get a less [138:38] clear view of the wonderful gracious [138:41] work of [138:42] god in christ for us than they would in [138:45] other translations [138:47] i think they're going to come away with [138:48] a sense that [138:51] they need to work hard to receive [138:54] this release and revelation that [138:57] uh you find in the pages of the fashion [139:00] translation [139:01] rather than to hear that they need to [139:04] grow in [139:04] knowledge of christ and thereby be [139:07] filled with the fullness that god [139:09] is pouring out into its church and just [139:11] people so i think those are some [139:13] practical [139:15] shortcomings that people run into if [139:17] they depend on the passion translation [139:19] that's just speaking to corruption [139:22] i think perhaps more broadly as well [139:25] in taking into account what i've read [139:27] across as a whole is it's not just in [139:29] colossians where he's radically [139:30] transforming what the scriptures say [139:32] so i would say that for that christian [139:34] uh that they aren't ultimately going to [139:37] be confident [139:37] that the bible is their source of [139:39] authority in fact it may end up being [139:41] that [139:41] in a lot of things that they read brian [139:43] simmons has become their ultimate [139:45] authority even though that would shock [139:47] them [139:48] but that's the reality because so much [139:50] of what you're reading [139:51] is from the hand of brian simmons [139:54] instead of uh from the mouth of god [139:56] through his prophets and apostles [139:57] i'm mike winger and my goal with all the [139:59] free content i put up online is to help [140:01] you learn how to think biblically about [140:02] everything but you really can't learn [140:03] how to think [140:04] biblically if the bible you're reading [140:06] represents the thinking of brian simmons [140:08] and not the revelation and the [140:10] inspiration of the holy spirit [140:12] if you ever want to join me i go live [140:13] every week on mondays and fridays at 1 [140:16] p.m pacific time [140:17] i do bible studies i do apologetics [140:19] theology and i do a q a that's the [140:21] friday video 1 pm [140:22] and we do q a answering your questions [140:24] from the live chat giving you guys the [140:26] best answers that i can come up with [140:28] for you're often very challenging [140:30] questions take care  📄 **Full text:** ![[Full Document Contents/Articles/Everything Wrong With the Passion Translation in Colossians.md|Everything Wrong With the Passion Translation in Colossians by YouTube]] ## Highlights - their percentage by which there's more words in english than there is in greek is relatively consistent but when you look at the passion translation uh so have a look there 2900 words to translate colossians and the next highest is uh is the nasd with 2122 122 words so the passion translation is longer than that by nearly 40 percent you see how close the ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01ksvc4ve0e64p0ggtyw71835t)) - Note: The empirical word-count anchor: TPT Colossians runs 2,900 English words vs NASB's 2,122 — ~40% longer than even the most expanded standard translation. Other English translations cluster tightly because they're rendering the same Greek with predictable expansion ratios; TPT breaks the pattern. Cleanest single-number proof of "this is not translation, it's interpretive expansion." - Tags: 40-percent-longer, colossians, word-count-empirical, expansion-by-numbers, atom/literature/h1