Finding Purpose in Agency Work - CourtneyR.dev's 2nd Brain

Finding Purpose in Agency Work ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/jWd_RNFEM0s/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [Finding Purpose in Agency Work](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWd_RNFEM0s) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [agency-growth, purpose-driven-work, professional-relationships] > author: Kurt Von Ahnen, Toby Cryns > source: Agency Action > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWd_RNFEM0s > date created: {{date:YYYY-MM-DD}} {{time:HH:mm}} > > # 🏷️ Title: Finding Purpose in Agency Work >  ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ## 📝 Summary - **What happened**: Agency owners Kurt Von Ahnen and Toby Cryns discussed navigating difficult periods in agency work, including revenue challenges, team management struggles, and questioning business direction. - **Why it matters**: Demonstrates the emotional and practical challenges of scaling agencies beyond solo operations while maintaining quality and purpose. - **Key stakeholders**: Agency owners, project managers, development teams, clients, and the broader WordPress community. - **Risks and tradeoffs**: Balance between growth ambitions vs. quality control; team overhead vs. solo control; authenticity vs. professional image. - **Bottom line**: Professional relationships and clear processes provide crucial support during challenging periods, while maintaining perspective on long-term value creation. ## 📖 Main Content The conversation centers on the tension between agency growth and maintaining quality while preserving personal purpose. Toby describes a particularly challenging month and a half where his agency faced significant operational issues despite everyone's best efforts, leading to existential questions about continuing to scale versus reverting to solo work. The discussion reveals several key themes around agency sustainability: **Team Structure Benefits**: Both hosts emphasize how project managers and specialized team members create crucial buffers between owners and daily operational stress. Project managers handle formal processes that owners might resist but that are essential for revenue protection and client satisfaction. **Revenue Protection Through Process**: Kurt highlights how structured phases prevent scope creep and maintain pricing integrity. Without project management discipline, agencies risk delivering value without corresponding payment. **Professional Relationship Value**: Both speakers emphasize how connections within the WordPress community provide emotional support, business opportunities, and a sense of belonging that sustain them through difficult periods. **Authenticity vs. Professional Image**: The conversation touches on the challenge of being genuine about struggles while maintaining the confidence necessary to close sales and serve clients effectively. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:01:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWd_RNFEM0s&t=60) Toby's challenging period - Month and a half of recognizing significant operational gaps - Emotionally draining despite team's best efforts - Questioning whether to scale back to solo operation #### ⏱️ [00:04:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWd_RNFEM0s&t=270) Kurt's perspective on challenges - Went months without sales, questioned continuing - Recovery came through maintaining confidence rather than desperation - Emphasis on having power to change vs. corporate employment limitations #### ⏱️ [00:08:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWd_RNFEM0s&t=525) Project manager value proposition - Handle overhead that's critical but not directly billable - Create emotional buffer for owners during difficult client interactions - Enable delegation of formal processes owners might resist #### ⏱️ [00:16:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWd_RNFEM0s&t=980) Revenue protection through process - Structured phases prevent premature value delivery - Project managers enforce boundaries owners might compromise - Clear revision rounds and change order processes #### ⏱️ [00:22:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWd_RNFEM0s&t=1320) Professional relationships as support - WordPress community connections provide belonging - Subcontracting creates interwoven professional relationships - Professional partnerships offer marketing benefits and emotional support #### ⏱️ [00:26:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWd_RNFEM0s&t=1590) Authenticity in professional settings - Challenge of being real about struggles while maintaining confidence - Difference between honest sharing and appearing desperate - Importance of maintaining expert positioning during sales ## 📚 References - [Agency Action podcast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWd_RNFEM0s) - [TheMightyMo.com](https://themightymo.com) - Toby's agency - [Mananamas.com](https://mananamas.com) - Kurt's agency and training - LifterLMS partnership mentioned - WP Tonic collaboration referenced ## 🗣️ Paraphrase Two seasoned agency owners candidly discuss the emotional and operational challenges of scaling beyond solo work. Toby shares a particularly difficult period where his team discovered significant gaps in their delivery despite everyone's best efforts, leading him to question whether the complexity of team management is worth it compared to simpler solo operations. Kurt provides perspective from his own recent struggles with revenue gaps and health issues, emphasizing how ownership provides the power to change circumstances that employment cannot. Both speakers highlight the critical value of project managers who handle formal processes and create emotional buffers during difficult client situations. The conversation reveals how professional relationships within the WordPress community provide both practical business benefits and emotional support during challenging periods. They discuss the delicate balance between authentic sharing about struggles and maintaining the confidence necessary to serve clients effectively. ## 📰 Newsletter **Agency Growing Pains: When Success Feels Like Struggle** Ever wondered if other agency owners question whether it's all worth it? This week's Agency Action podcast delivers a refreshingly honest conversation between Kurt Von Ahnen and Toby Cryns about the messy middle of agency growth. Toby shares a challenging month where his team discovered significant operational gaps despite everyone's best efforts—a reminder that good intentions don't always equal good outcomes. Kurt offers perspective from his own recent struggles, emphasizing how the WordPress community provides crucial support during tough times. Key takeaways for WordPress professionals: - **Project managers aren't overhead—they're revenue protection** through structured processes and client boundary enforcement - **Community connections matter more than credentials** for long-term sustainability and emotional support - **Authenticity has limits** in professional settings—share struggles without appearing desperate Whether you're solo or scaling, this conversation offers practical insights about maintaining perspective during inevitable rough patches. Sometimes the best business advice comes from people brave enough to admit when things aren't going perfectly. ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Document formal processes that protect project phases and revenue streams - Create boundary-setting templates for scope changes and revision rounds - Develop community engagement strategies that build professional support networks #### Community - Host honest discussions about agency challenges at WordPress meetups - Create peer support groups for agency owners facing scaling decisions - Document case studies of successful project manager integration #### WordPress - **Training**: Develop project management curricula specific to WordPress agencies - **Community**: Foster mentorship programs connecting experienced and emerging agency owners - **Documentation**: Create resources for structuring client relationships and project boundaries ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Professional relationships within industry communities provide measurable emotional support during business challenges - Formal project management processes directly correlate with revenue protection and client satisfaction - Agency owners who maintain structured phases see higher profitability than those who blur project boundaries - Authentic sharing about business struggles, when balanced with confidence, strengthens professional relationships - Team members without ownership stakes enforce boundaries more effectively than owners in client relationships ### 📊 Methodology - Survey agency owners about community relationship impact on business persistence - Track revenue correlation with formal vs. informal project management approaches - Analyze client retention rates based on project boundary enforcement - Study professional network effects on business resilience during challenging periods ### ❓ Questions - What specific community touchpoints provide the most meaningful support for agency owners? - How do agencies measure the ROI of project management overhead? - What's the optimal balance between authentic sharing and professional confidence? - How do different team structures affect owner emotional well-being during client conflicts? ### 🔮 Future Research - Long-term impact of community relationships on business sustainability - Correlation between formal processes and team member job satisfaction - Client perception of agency professionalism based on project management approach - Emotional health metrics for agency owners at different scaling stages ### 💡 Implications - **Practice**: Agencies should invest in both formal processes and community relationships as business infrastructure - **Policy**: Industry associations could formalize peer support programs for agency owners - **Education**: Business training should include emotional resilience and community building components - **Funding**: Consider community engagement as a factor in agency investment decisions ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level: 11th grade (Flesch-Kincaid) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Clear discussion structure with named speakers and topics - Improve: Add organizational charts showing agency roles, process flow diagrams #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Audio podcast format with conversational tone - Improve: Timestamped segments for key topics, downloadable audio summary #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Extensive real-world examples and analogies ("crystals and pyramids") - Improve: Glossary of agency terms, comparison tables between approaches #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Actionable examples of boundary setting and process implementation - Improve: Step-by-step guides for hiring project managers, boundary-setting templates #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear cause-and-effect relationships between processes and outcomes - Improve: Decision trees for scaling decisions, ROI calculations for team roles #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Emphasis on community relationships and peer support - Improve: Discussion guides for agency owner meetups, peer mentoring frameworks #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Self-reflection prompts about business direction and values - Improve: Assessment worksheets for agency readiness, private journaling prompts #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Organic conversation flow and natural business evolution discussions - Improve: Seasonal business cycle analogies, ecosystem thinking about agency relationships ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear speaker identification and topic headings - Improve: Structured transcript with ARIA landmarks, speaker change indicators #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard video player controls - Improve: Timestamped navigation links, skip-to-topic functionality #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard video player interface - Improve: High-contrast transcript option, adjustable text size #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript available - Improve: Synchronized captions with speaker identification, downloadable transcript ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Two white male agency owners sharing similar experiences - Improve: Include diverse agency owner perspectives, varied business models #### Inclusive language - Present: Generally professional and accessible language - Improve: Define industry jargon, avoid gendered business assumptions #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Conversational format may help some processing styles - Improve: Structured summaries, multiple content formats #### Representation - Present: Limited to two similar demographic profiles - Improve: Feature diverse agency ownership models, varied success definitions ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - **Causal reasoning**: Clear connection between formal processes and revenue protection - **Analogical reasoning**: Effective use of personal experiences to illustrate broader principles - **Inductive reasoning**: Building from specific experiences to general agency management principles #### Fallacies - **Survivorship bias**: Focus on continuing agencies may miss perspectives from those who scaled back - **Anecdotal evidence**: Heavy reliance on personal experience without broader data #### Tone of voice - Conversational and vulnerable, with professional authority balanced by personal honesty ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis No significant DARVO patterns detected. The conversation maintains accountability for business challenges while providing mutual support and practical solutions. ## 🎯 Conclusion This conversation demonstrates that agency scaling challenges are universal and that professional relationships within industry communities provide crucial support during difficult periods. The key insight is that formal processes and team structures, while sometimes feeling like overhead, actually protect revenue and provide emotional buffers that enable sustainable growth. The practical next steps for agency owners include: investing in project management roles and processes, actively participating in professional communities, and developing frameworks for authentic but confident communication about business challenges. The emphasis should be on building systems that support both business objectives and personal well-being during inevitable growth struggles. --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] Folks, welcome to another Agency Action [00:02] show. I'm Kurt Von Ahnnen. My co-host is [00:05] with me today, Toby Crine. And I think [00:08] we got something really awesome to talk [00:09] about today. Hey Toby, let's just get to [00:12] it, man. Tell me how your last month and [00:14] a half has been. It's not good, Kurt. [00:16] It's It's been a challenge personally on [00:19] my, you know, we'll just say in my [00:21] house. It's been [00:23] a challenge at work. We've been going [00:25] Well, let's just say over the last month [00:28] and a half we've really shined a mirror [00:30] on ourselves and noticed some things we [00:32] weren't doing well. And it's really been [00:34] emotionally draining for me to realize [00:36] that, but also like take the next steps [00:38] to fix that. And also to be really frank [00:41] with our clients and that we haven't [00:44] been doing as good a job as we wanted to [00:46] despite our best efforts. Like that's [00:48] been the probably the most part of why [00:50] it's so emotionally draining is like my [00:52] whole heart and body is in this as is my [00:55] team's to the extent that they're [00:57] that's reasonable. And we've all been [01:00] really working hard and to realize that [01:02] there was there's such a huge room for [01:04] improvement where we thought we were [01:05] doing really well in certain aspects. [01:08] It's been really It's just been really [01:10] emotional and just [01:12] It's been tough. It's been a tough month [01:14] and a half. And it's caused me to kind [01:16] of rethink like why am I even doing [01:18] this? Because there is an easier path [01:20] even within the Mighty Mo agency. The [01:22] easy the easiest, simplest path is like [01:25] it's just me. I don't need I don't need [01:27] a team. I don't need a, you know, I'll [01:29] just do it myself. We'll scale way back. [01:31] I can control every single aspect if [01:33] it's just me. I'll know exactly what I'm [01:35] delivering and I'll know the pulse of [01:37] everything. I'll only have three clients [01:39] rather than 20, you know, that sort of [01:41] thing. So that's like the simple thing. [01:43] But then when I thought about like why [01:45] am I doing this? And that causes me to [01:47] like get back in it and be like, "Okay, [01:50] we're on a path to something. What are [01:51] we heading What are we aiming towards? [01:54] And how are are doing on that path?" And [01:56] in some ways I think like despite all [01:58] this inner turmoil that I'm experiencing [02:01] and this emotional really really tough [02:03] emotional month and a half and also [02:05] physically draining because I've been [02:06] investing so much more time than normal [02:09] into the business to figure stuff out [02:11] and [02:12] >> Yeah. Yeah. having so many more meetings [02:14] with my team to like just be like what's [02:16] going on? Tell me about this email [02:18] exchange. Tell me about where this [02:19] project is, what happened today I cuz I [02:22] really want to understand what's going [02:24] on so we can like diagnose problems and [02:26] then get to the next place but it's just [02:27] been a ton of time so I've had to like [02:29] cut back on personal things for the last [02:32] month and a half and really like invest [02:34] more of my energy into business which [02:36] sucks. That's not my goal. Like my goal [02:38] is not to spend all my time in my [02:40] business but that's what I've been [02:41] doing. But part of this question is like [02:43] despite all that like maybe I'm actually [02:47] kicking [02:48] kicking ass right now. Like [02:50] >> [snorts] [02:50] >> like maybe this is just a growth pain to [02:52] the next place and [02:53] >> Yeah. Yeah. [02:55] So I wanted to jump in on you but I [02:57] didn't want to be rude and you were on a [02:58] riff so I was going to let you keep [03:00] going. First off kudos to you for being [03:02] brave and honest and speaking and and [03:04] talking about the subject on the show, [03:06] you know, where supposedly five or six [03:08] people are going to hear this. You know, [03:10] I I went through my thing at the [03:11] beginning of the year. I went for months [03:13] without making a new sale and on top of [03:15] that got the flu and was like knocked [03:17] out for like six weeks. I just I just [03:19] felt like crud and same thing like at [03:22] the end of February's rolling around, [03:24] March is coming through and then I'm [03:25] still feeling like crap. We're we're [03:27] revenues not pouring in, right? And I'm [03:29] thinking to myself, hey, you know, [03:31] they're opening up a new YMCA here in [03:33] the city. Maybe I should be the director [03:35] of enrollment for that. That maybe I [03:36] should apply for that. Maybe maybe [03:38] there's a position for me in town. [03:40] And but then reality hits and I remember [03:43] my corporate employment and I remember [03:44] like those moments where you're like [03:46] this isn't going the way I want it to [03:47] but you have no power to change it. But [03:49] if you own your own thing, you do have [03:51] the power to change it. And so, do I [03:53] want to give up being, you know, the [03:55] king of all I survey, [03:56] uh even though in in moments it seems [03:59] I'm not surveying much? No. No, I don't. [04:01] Like, I keep getting driven back to I [04:03] have certain freedoms and I have certain [04:05] abilities and certain things. And I [04:07] think it's really important. Like, I I [04:09] gosh, the whole the whole pandemic, [04:12] Toby, before you knew me, I would get [04:13] online and I would say things like, we [04:15] got to find the opportunity within the [04:16] obstacles and you know, we have to [04:18] associate in order to have a harvest. [04:20] And now, April came, pretty good harvest [04:22] month for us, not going to lie. You [04:24] know, the harvest was plentiful in [04:25] April. May is looking pretty strong. And [04:28] I just closed a public speaking gig that [04:30] came to me. I didn't even have to apply [04:32] for it. It came to me because it had to [04:34] do with things I was doing last year [04:36] that brought that work to me now, right? [04:39] And so, I think so many times we allow [04:42] our emotions or our feelings in the [04:44] moment dictate what success is when it's [04:47] it the facts that, you know, the key [04:49] performance indicators are are [04:51] completely, you know, devoid of our [04:53] feelings. It it's it we you Dude, you [04:56] could look at your stuff and go, this is [04:57] really bad. Or you could take a look at [04:59] stuff and go, holy crap, we're kicking [05:01] ass. And it's it's hard to understand [05:03] un- unless you're objective enough to [05:05] look at it from the outside in what's [05:07] really happening. Yeah, and I think this [05:09] can be said for anybody. The perspective [05:11] probably matters more than Yeah. Like, [05:13] people there's probably people in my [05:16] worst day in the last month and a half [05:18] would be like, I'm really working hard [05:19] to get to a point where I have that [05:20] problem. [05:24] I remember I was working at uh ABC [05:27] Network News. This would have been the [05:28] year 2001. [05:31] I was in LA at the news desk. Um this is [05:33] where Peter Jennings This is For for all [05:35] you old-timers, you'll remember Peter [05:37] Jennings. That's where he worked when he [05:39] was in LA. I was just an hourly employee [05:41] at the desk answering the phones. I [05:43] talked to Tony the Tiger one time. It [05:45] was great. But Tony the Tiger called. [05:47] He goes, you know, I'm just like ABC [05:49] Network News and he's like, "This is [05:51] Tony the Tiger, if you believe it." And [05:52] I thought cuz we got prank calls [05:53] sometimes. I was like, "There's no way." [05:55] But I just happened to overhear someone [05:57] in down the hall talking about Tony the [05:59] Tiger. I'm like, "Wait, maybe we're [06:00] doing a story about Tony the Tiger." So, [06:02] I'm like, "Are we doing a story about [06:04] Tony the Tiger?" Someone's like, "Yeah." [06:05] So, I'm like, "Okay, Tony, I'll patch [06:07] you through." So, I'm overhearing. So, [06:09] I'm I have like at this time, I want [06:11] more than anything I wanted to go to a [06:13] dentist cuz I just had dentist dentistry [06:15] issues that I wanted to cure, but I had [06:17] no money. I'm making um [06:19] 13 bucks an hour, which was actually a [06:21] great wage for me in LA, but not enough [06:23] to pay for a dentist. [06:25] Yeah. I I shared a house I shared a a [06:28] two-bedroom house with eight people. [06:32] That sounds about LA-ish. [06:35] There was a guy living in the bar in the [06:37] back. Like picture [06:39] a 4-ft by 2-ft like bar that we moved [06:42] the you know, this is like a backyard. [06:44] Anyway, I overhear the lady next to me [06:46] at the at the ABC News desk and she's [06:48] like complaining about the coverage she [06:49] has for her dentist things, you know, [06:51] like ABC News only provides 80% copay or [06:55] something. I'm just like, you're like, [06:56] "I wish I had dentist I wish I had that [06:58] money." So, I think like part of it like [07:01] it's good to take stock as best we can, [07:03] but it's it I admit that it's really [07:04] hard for me anyway to figure out like, [07:07] "How am I actually doing? Like, where am [07:09] I even going?" Sometimes I don't even [07:11] remember where I'm going or know why I'm [07:13] going cuz like work is just one piece of [07:17] the many shaded puzzle of my life. [07:20] Yeah. Yeah. [07:22] But there's looking at our notes, [07:23] there's like a whole other category or [07:26] reason for why there might feel like [07:27] some disconnection, you know, for you [07:29] from what you've described just now, [07:31] right? You you have project managers. [07:33] So, there's a lot of stuff that happens [07:35] within the Mighty Mo that you're not [07:37] even aware of. Like you you kind of find [07:39] out on the back end, I imagine, right? [07:41] >> Yeah. [07:42] And usually it's awesome stuff. Like I [07:45] shouldn't say usually, sometimes it's [07:46] awesome stuff, sometimes they're [07:47] alerting me to issues that need to be [07:49] resolved. I would say like it took me [07:51] 20-something years before I hired my [07:54] first project manager, and it's an [07:55] interesting role cuz it's just overhead. [07:58] Like they're not delivering anything [08:01] from a Yeah. in the sense that like a [08:02] developer, they're doing the work, and I [08:05] phrased that wrong because they're [08:06] critical to what we do. Our project [08:08] managers are critical. And a great [08:10] project manager [08:12] changes businesses, you know, like a [08:14] great project manager is felt throughout [08:16] the organization when we're my size. [08:19] There are days where um [08:22] our project manager, just in passing, so [08:23] I have a stand up twice a week with one [08:24] of them, and and they'll be like, um so [08:26] I sent an invoice for this and this and [08:28] this. I'm like, I don't know what you're [08:29] talking about, but I understand the word [08:31] you sent an invoice. Great. [08:35] I'm hearing revenue. Exactly. I don't [08:37] know how much. I've just like that [08:39] sounds wonderful. So there's lots of [08:41] good news there, but also they So when [08:43] I'm we have When I'm not feeling up to a [08:46] client call, [08:48] it's so nice to know that my project [08:50] managers are there to help. Like and I'm [08:53] trying more and more to take myself out [08:55] of our delivery process entirely. And [08:57] the more I do that, the more I think [08:59] like this is where I want This is where [09:01] I need to go. That's my objective is to [09:03] be more, you know, just kind of steering [09:05] the business rather than like doing the [09:07] work. And you know, there there have [09:09] been times where I'm really not up for a [09:11] conversation, and our project I'll be on [09:13] a call with our project manager, and I'm [09:15] just like, you take it. I'm going to be [09:16] on the call. I'm just going to be quiet. [09:18] I'm angry. I'm like I'm the call, and [09:21] whether it's the client's fault or [09:22] something that happened at home, I'm [09:24] angry, and I'm just sitting there [09:25] smiling. The project manager's running [09:27] the meeting, and hopefully I don't have [09:29] to say anything, but oh, thank you, it's [09:31] been great. Bye. Um and in those times, [09:33] it's it's unbelievably, like I'm so [09:36] grateful to everybody who makes that [09:38] possible on our team. I just got to ask [09:41] cuz people are probably wondering, in [09:43] your mind, can you define or describe [09:46] like what a project manager actually is? [09:49] Like I consider myself the project [09:51] manager of Mañana No Mas. And so I bring [09:54] in the jobs, I split things up, I give I [09:56] delegate them out to team members. I'm a [09:58] I'm a producing team member as well, so [10:01] so some of it gets delegated to myself, [10:03] which I guess makes me not really the [10:05] project manager. But in your case, you [10:08] you have people that that run the thing [10:11] for you. Yeah. In in our case, we don't [10:13] really have [10:14] account managers, although technically [10:16] I'm the account manager if we're going [10:17] to split it up that way. Um although my [10:20] sales guy kind of plays the role of [10:21] account manager, and so Yeah. I think [10:23] like there there's like seats in this [10:26] project manager has a seat. [10:28] It could be in a if you're depending on [10:30] what you're doing, your project manager [10:31] could be like 50% of the time in the [10:33] project manager seat, 20% in account [10:35] manager, and [10:36] you know, 20% in billing or something. [10:39] Like you can So I just feel like but in [10:41] my case, I have a full-time project [10:43] manager. Um and actually I have [10:45] one full-time, one part-time, but [10:48] they're the in that seat, their job is [10:51] to simply [10:53] um [10:54] make sure the clients know exactly [10:55] what's happening, when it's going to be [10:56] happening, get ahead of issues as much [10:59] as I can, kind of understand the [11:00] pipeline, and [11:02] keep the projects on track. Really [11:04] that's their job is to make sure that [11:07] communication is clear, that our [11:09] developers are getting what they need, [11:11] that our designers get what they need, [11:12] but a lot of that our developers and [11:14] designers are now just talking directly [11:16] to the clients. And so like the project [11:18] manager's job is just be like, client, [11:20] do you have everything you need? No? [11:22] Okay, who do you need to talk to? Let me [11:24] facilitate that. Yeah. [11:27] I'm always asking my project managers, [11:29] are we on track or off track? Like [11:31] what's the risk level today for this [11:33] project? And you know, for specific [11:35] project it might the risk might be high [11:37] today and low tomorrow. It just kind of [11:38] depends where we're at and what's [11:40] happening. I'm curious about something [11:42] else. And I'm thinking about my own [11:44] personal experiences. So, [11:46] years ago, years ago, I had a client, [11:49] brought her on. She had was formerly an [11:51] L&D manager, right? So, learning and [11:53] development manager. So, she had some [11:55] pretty high expectations in the [11:56] e-learning space. And I knew I could [11:58] fulfill those those really, really well [11:59] through my young and ambitious [12:01] mind. But, she was also very specific [12:03] about image design, flash, pizzazz, all [12:06] these things. And some of the content, [12:08] the way she provided it, didn't provide [12:09] all that pizzazz and jazz, right? But, [12:12] but she still expected it. And she [12:13] expected things like pixel-perfect [12:16] spacing for between the heading and the [12:18] content, between And when I was first [12:20] building it out, I was concerned with [12:22] function, right? I just wanted the [12:25] I just wanted to slam the content in and [12:27] we can adjust it as we need as we go for [12:29] styling purposes, but I wanted to get it [12:31] done. And in that process, she had [12:33] become [12:34] concerned with my abilities. Let's just [12:36] say that. She was like, "You're [12:38] obviously not artistic like I am, blah, [12:40] blah, blah, right?" And it's so, there's [12:42] going to be a huge disconnect here if [12:43] this product doesn't match my [12:45] expectations. So, we're having that that [12:47] talk. [12:48] She's passionate, I'm passionate, and I [12:50] find that passionate people can can [12:52] swing the pendulum really well between [12:54] like hyper-critical and like ambassador, [12:57] right? Now, it took a little bit of work [13:00] and I and I had another person on my [13:02] team that that worked with them for a [13:03] little bit that's more design-oriented. [13:05] And so, then what this customer got to [13:07] see was, "Oh my god, Kurt really is [13:10] highly functional and highly good at [13:12] this e-learning portion, but he's also [13:14] got someone on the team on the design [13:15] side." She ended up going from highly [13:18] critical to one of our biggest [13:20] advocates. I mean, referred work to us [13:22] in the whole thing. Is that something [13:24] that you see be the product manager is [13:26] able to kind of do for you because if [13:28] you're running the whole [13:29] So I'm picturing you with your team, [13:31] Toby, right? So So you've got these [13:32] positions, these seats you call them. [13:34] Does that help with your communication [13:36] and clients to to like they're able to [13:38] like restore confidence or or or bring [13:41] the level up whereas quite honestly just [13:44] you being the only person could cause [13:46] friction. Yeah, cuz there's there's [13:47] something to be said for somebody who [13:50] comes to work in the morning, they don't [13:51] own the company, they don't carry the [13:53] baggage that I carry every morning, they [13:56] don't carry the emotional stuff, the 20 [13:59] years, you know, and they just show up [14:01] there like, I got a job to do. And my [14:02] job is to get this client from point A [14:05] to point B today. And a lot of times [14:07] like I've been just so grateful to have [14:09] that team in place because like I said, [14:11] I go to meetings sometimes and I'm just [14:13] angry. Maybe I'm angry at what the [14:15] client's saying, maybe I'm angry at [14:17] something my wife said to me, I don't [14:18] know. Maybe I'm just angry cuz I woke up [14:20] on the wrong side of the bed. But like [14:22] for somebody whose job it is is to like [14:25] present confidence and like yeah, they [14:28] can help immensely. And I I'm picturing [14:30] your designer in this case and you know, [14:32] maybe they had slightly better design [14:34] skills than you, but I'm guessing, you [14:36] know, there was probably some [14:37] compatibility between your skills and [14:39] their skills, but there's something to [14:40] be said for bringing in someone to say, [14:42] "Hey client, I have an expert in this [14:44] that's going to help you." And just that [14:46] like shift, even if the person isn't [14:48] that much better, can change the [14:50] dynamic. [14:51] >> Yeah. Yeah. Um I have a term that I use [14:54] and some people get insulted, but but I [14:55] call things like crystals and pyramids. [14:57] I'm a very Naturally, I'm a very black [14:59] and white kind of idealistic person. And [15:02] then crystals and pyramids to me is is [15:03] people that are like more artistic, more [15:05] abstract, more whatever. And she was [15:08] behaving in a very crystals and pyramids [15:09] way to me and I thought, "My designer is [15:12] a little more crystals and pyramids. [15:14] Let's put these two together and see if [15:15] they can't agree on a on a on a [15:18] you know, design template moving [15:19] forward. And then if that's established [15:22] and she's happy with the design, I can [15:23] go back to just the function and [15:25] content, plugging the stuff in. And And [15:27] that worked really well. It worked [15:29] really really well. Like I said, it it [15:30] it was it was the pendulum swing that [15:32] went from she's going to be [15:34] hypercritical and think I don't have [15:36] what she needs to meet her expectations [15:37] to oh my god, they knocked it out of the [15:39] park, and I got to work with an extra [15:41] person, and it was wonderful. [15:42] >> Yeah, and here's another example at the [15:43] Mighty Mo. I'm not a huge intuitively, [15:46] I'm not a huge fan of super formal [15:48] processes like we must complete A before [15:51] B, we must complete B before C. It's [15:54] just not where I live in life. What I've [15:56] realized, my project managers, it's been [15:59] really helpful to have them cuz they've [16:01] created processes that are very formal. [16:04] Like we need to sign off on this, we [16:05] need to sign off on that before we do [16:06] this. And it's not a great fit for me [16:09] personally, but I see the value to the [16:11] business. And so, having someone else [16:14] see that and appreciate it as part of [16:16] the thing that makes their job be [16:17] better, it's been I've been super [16:19] grateful for that, too. Like so, this is [16:21] like as we talk about should I hire a [16:22] project manager, they bring they can do [16:25] the things that you know you need that [16:27] you don't want to do cuz you're you, you [16:29] know, or me. Well, you nailed one. You [16:32] nailed one just what you described right [16:33] there that, believe it or not, I think [16:35] is part of why we're able to create the [16:37] revenue we create up on Yalla Na Mas. [16:39] Like yourself, I am someone that's like, [16:41] "Hey, I'm already in here. I'm [16:43] I can already I You know what? I can [16:44] import their contacts list into the CRM [16:47] right now, right? Or I'm here. I can [16:50] build this this first automation that [16:51] deals with this course enrollment." But, [16:53] project management says we have phase [16:55] one, phase two, phase three, phase four, [16:58] right? And those phases are based on [17:01] revenue exchanging hands. So, if I cuz I [17:05] cuz I'm not like process oriented like [17:07] like you what you just said, right? If I [17:09] go, "Hey, we're going to install the CRM [17:10] in phase one, but we're going to [17:11] populate the CRM in phase two." If I [17:14] start populating the CRM while I'm still [17:16] working on phase one and phase two [17:18] requires another $8,000 from the client. [17:21] They're like, why am I paying you? [17:22] You're already doing it. Like it just [17:24] devalues it devalues the structure you [17:26] sold on. And so, yeah, my my gut when [17:30] I'm men [17:31] it's so hard cuz when I'm working I hit [17:33] I have a ups and flows like everyone [17:35] else that's creative, right? And so, [17:37] maybe I sit at the computer for 2 hours [17:39] and do nothing and then all of a sudden [17:41] I work, you know, at midnight till 2:00 [17:43] in the morning and knock out 10 hours [17:44] worth of work. Right? And I just and I [17:46] start going. I got to be careful to not [17:49] break out of the phases and reduce the [17:52] value of what we've sold. So then So [17:55] then I got to get back to, you know, [17:57] contact the customer and say, "Great [17:58] news. We've completed phase one. You [18:01] know, we can start phase two early cuz [18:03] since we're ahead of schedule, if you [18:05] want to start phase two early, we can. [18:06] Just let me know and I'll pop you an [18:07] invoice for that $8,000. We can get [18:09] started right away." Right? And that's [18:11] the way that we keep the revenue forcing [18:13] through the door. But if we don't have a [18:15] project manager and we don't hold to our [18:17] process, we lose the ability to create [18:20] the revenue on the timeline we have the [18:22] possibility to. [18:24] Yeah. That was a lot to spit out. [18:26] No, you're totally right. In addition to [18:30] you know, uh [18:32] the the process helping improve your [18:34] standing with the client. And it's [18:36] something they can grab onto. And and [18:38] everybody gets frustrated with processes [18:41] at some point in the you know, like [18:42] there it's going to cause some [18:43] frustration, but the goal is like [18:45] overall it's going to help. And [18:46] similarly, we had a case just recently [18:48] with a client that we've really enjoyed [18:50] working with and are a great fit with, [18:52] but they we realized they sent us [18:54] spreadsheets to import and we thought [18:56] the first one was the final. Nope, [18:58] here's a second one. We're like, "Okay, [18:59] great. This will be it." We're on the [19:00] sixth version, but before they sent the [19:02] sixth version our project man I was like [19:05] we're I'm conversing with the project [19:06] manager and she's like, "I'm going to [19:07] email them and tell them this is the [19:09] last version that we're going to do for [19:11] free and happy to do more, but it'll [19:13] cost money. And the the next version was [19:15] the final version, or they're going to [19:16] pay. You know, but like also I think [19:18] like this idea of process and we're [19:21] trying to get better at that, too. Like [19:22] just setting firm And other ideas like [19:24] that we've been getting more and more [19:25] firm on is revision rounds. And I think [19:27] it's been really helpful to let the [19:29] clients know what our process is. Like [19:31] they feel comfort in it. It increases [19:33] like our professionalism, hopefully in [19:35] their eyes, but also it sets firm [19:36] boundaries about when we're going to [19:37] charge, when we're not going to charge, [19:39] and like it sets those expectations [19:41] early. And so we had a client uh [19:43] recently, great client. And they're [19:44] like, "Hey, I know we signed off on the [19:46] document saying we're ready to go with [19:48] this, but here's a thing that we want [19:50] you to tweak." And our project manager [19:52] was able to say, "We're happy to do [19:54] that, but you already agreed to this. [19:56] We're already beyond that. Here if you [19:58] want Here's the invoice if you want to [20:00] do that." And they said, "Okay, we'll do [20:03] We'll pay you for it." You know, like [20:05] they understood, you know, we [20:06] communicated up front. They checked the [20:08] box that said, "Anything more beyond [20:09] this is going to cost money." Yeah. [20:11] Well, and that's so important because [20:13] the delineation of roles within the [20:15] organization allows the the project [20:17] manager has no problem with that, right? [20:19] The project manager is like, "Nope, that [20:21] was done. That's extra. Here's your [20:22] invoice." The salesperson [20:25] would have like that that connection to [20:27] making the sale, right? And they And [20:29] they would be have that relationship in [20:30] the back of their head. And they would [20:31] be like, "Ah, come on, it's just a quick [20:33] change. Can't we just factor that in?" [20:35] And you as the owner, you're like, "I [20:37] really don't want friction on this. [20:38] Let's just make the customer happy." [20:40] Right? But no, people downwind that [20:42] aren't part of that original [20:44] relationship cycle, they're like, "Nope, [20:46] that was done. That's extra. Here's your [20:47] invoice." It's perfect. [20:49] >> Perfect. [20:51] Exactly. And as the owner of the agency, [20:53] you get to like it's been nice to kind [20:55] of [20:56] push those boundaries down my project [20:58] managers and say like, "No, just charge. [21:00] By default, we're going to charge. Maybe [21:01] you can decide to make an exception." [21:03] And one thing we've been doing is um we [21:05] created a a values document recently [21:07] that I shared with our team to kind of I [21:09] don't want them coming to me for [21:10] everything. I want to push [21:11] responsibility on them and say like [21:13] before you talk to me run it through [21:14] this framework and if you can make a [21:16] decision based on our values, make the [21:18] decision and here's like the dollar [21:20] value that is within balance like if it [21:23] if you can do it for X amount of dollars [21:25] and you think it fits, go ahead and do [21:26] it. But also like even if it's in that [21:28] value, whatever that dollar amount is, [21:30] and you think it's not fair, don't do [21:32] it. Set a boundary and say happy to do [21:34] it here's here's the invoice. [21:36] Yeah. No, that's all really really good [21:38] stuff. In terms of support for for those [21:41] moments where you think to yourself, why [21:43] am I bothering to do this or or what is [21:45] the what's the sense? What's the [21:47] purpose? How much of your drive to [21:50] continue has to do with like your [21:52] professional partnerships or people that [21:54] you associate with away from the [21:57] day-to-day Mighty Mo stuff? [21:58] >> So I think the thing that keeps me going [22:00] when I'm not sure is that my team is [22:03] there and they're counting on me to be [22:05] there and to be thoughtful, you know, [22:07] for their for their sake. [22:09] Yeah. And I try to be very thoughtful [22:10] before you know, before doing anything [22:12] rash. For example, we have a developer [22:14] who's currently part-time but some weeks [22:16] he works, you know, close to full-time [22:18] hours and I've told him I'm like I'm [22:19] trying to get you up to full-time but I [22:21] can't promise. I'm not going to bring [22:23] you up there until I can promise you [22:24] that consistently cuz I don't want to [22:26] bring you up and then break your heart [22:28] and you know, [22:28] >> Yeah. [22:30] I've kind of like over the years, I used [22:33] to care a lot about what my peers [22:34] thought. Is Toby doing amazing things [22:38] that are award-winning or is he like a [22:40] you know, Joe Schmo solopreneur and I [22:43] actually don't [22:43] >> win the Etsy award. Yeah, exactly. I [22:46] used to care a lot about that like, you [22:48] know, 15 years ago, maybe 10 years ago. [22:50] I care hopefully close to zero about [22:52] that now. I mean, I think I'm just a [22:55] more mature human today than I was [22:58] definitely 20 years ago. [22:59] >> [laughter] [22:59] >> Yeah. And I um like my my goals now I [23:03] try to frame in terms of like how am I [23:05] serving my community and my family and [23:08] my community includes my clients and my [23:09] employees, but [23:11] How about you? How do How do you look at [23:13] that? Over the years, so when I first [23:16] started, I didn't even know there was a [23:17] WordPress community. I mean, I 12 15 [23:20] years of slugging the thing out before I [23:21] realized there was a community. [23:23] And then things changed, you know, a lot [23:26] of it has to do with age, exposure to [23:28] the community, if we if we want to you [23:30] know, point that out. But it's it's like [23:33] this podcast with the WP Minute, Matt [23:35] and the team, right? Like I look at that [23:37] as [23:38] yeah, great opportunity, but also an [23:40] obligation, right? Like like are we [23:42] under contract? No, but but are someone [23:44] expecting me to come up with this [23:45] content? Yes. I do the lives with [23:47] LifterLMS every week, right? That that's [23:50] an exposure, that that's another [23:51] channel. I do content with Jonathan over [23:54] at WP Tonic and I do some work for WP [23:56] Tonic, right? Through through Manuel on [23:58] the Amoss. And so those ties that we [24:01] have, those tentacles that reach out [24:03] from just what we do, the things that [24:05] get us connected and and involved with [24:07] these other organizations, it gives me a [24:09] sense of I'm not alone in this thing. [24:11] I'm I'm doing this with others. And [24:14] yeah, Manuel on the Amoss is separate [24:16] and it creates its own revenue stream [24:17] and it does its own work, but the [24:19] tentacles outreach to other things. And [24:23] it makes me feel like makes me feel like [24:24] we really do belong, right? Like like [24:27] I'm not forcing my way into the room [24:29] where where I don't belong, right? I'm [24:31] not like I'm not like some dude in like [24:33] Bermuda shorts and and flip-flops trying [24:35] to get into a room full of guys in [24:36] tuxedos, right? Like it's like I [24:39] actually belong in these circles and it [24:41] feels really good to to be in that [24:43] space. And so in that respect, I think [24:45] those professional partnerships help [24:48] from a marketing perspective, obviously, [24:50] podcast exposure and getting to mention [24:52] Manuel on the Amoss, you know, a [24:53] gazillion times, that that certainly [24:55] helps. But it's more like like there's [24:57] tools. So, like LifterLMS is a plugin, [24:59] Gravity Forms is a plugin, Fluent Forms [25:02] is a plugin, right? And and by knowing [25:05] and engaging with the people that that [25:08] make those tools, well well now I feel [25:10] like we're part of that exchange as [25:11] well, right? And then [25:14] I just got to say, I'm on a [25:16] subcontracting model, right? Most of my [25:18] staff is all subcontracted. And so, I'm [25:21] usually job sharing with people. And so, [25:23] that creates relationships that are [25:26] interwoven. And so, when I have those [25:28] moments like I did, you know, 6 weeks [25:31] ago where I'm like, "Oh god, I should [25:32] just get a job." Well, what would I do [25:34] with all those relationships and [25:35] tentacles and and webs that I was [25:36] talking about, right? I'd have to sever [25:38] all that or at least downplay it all. [25:41] And so, for me, it just makes sense to [25:43] keep forging forward and know that the [25:46] the harvest does come, right? As long as [25:47] you do the work, the harvest does come. [25:49] It doesn't always come in the timing [25:50] that you want, but it always shows up. [25:52] >> Yeah. So, maybe in I'm thinking about [25:54] these professional partnerships, Kurt. [25:56] Maybe we can end with this. Like, one [25:58] thing I struggle with is and this is [26:00] historically, despite my best efforts of [26:02] like trying to be real and be like my [26:06] goal is to close the gap between like [26:08] public Toby and the Toby that I'm what [26:11] I'm sitting at home alone on a Friday [26:13] night or [26:14] usually I'm not alone. Usually I'm with [26:15] my kids and my family. Like like my goal [26:18] is that when you see me at the no-code [26:20] meetup, you're seeing the same person [26:22] that you see on Friday. But as we were [26:23] talking earlier, you know, we do this [26:25] podcast and and you see this all over [26:27] YouTube and you know, people [26:28] everything's great. Or you go go to some [26:30] conference and somebody's presenting and [26:32] they're everything's great. Everything's [26:34] perfect in my business and we never have [26:36] any problems. The problems we have are [26:38] like, you know, these you know, like the [26:40] problem is I'm not I work too hard, you [26:42] know, that's the problem, you know, like [26:44] Yeah. [26:45] But how do you be real in these [26:47] conversations with professionals? And [26:50] how do you set yourself up to belong [26:52] despite who you are know, who I am? How [26:55] do I set myself up despite the nuances I [26:57] bring at you know in my room? You know [26:59] what? I find that I'm an oversharer cuz [27:01] I just tell people if things suck. [27:03] Um because it comes up. But there's a [27:06] difference in there's a difference in [27:08] like saying, "Oh, things are rough right [27:10] now, but we'll get through it, right?" [27:11] Like like or you know, "Ebbs and flows, [27:14] you know, we're in a valley now, the [27:15] mountain's coming, right?" Like like I'm [27:17] usually that way. I'm not like things [27:20] are slow. "My god, please, do you know [27:21] have anyone that can send us some work?" [27:23] Like I just think that that is there's [27:24] like a line not to cross, right? I don't [27:27] want to seem desperate. In fact, when I [27:29] look at our April and what we did sell, [27:32] I didn't sell that from being desperate. [27:34] I sold that from being confident, being [27:36] like, "We are the expert. This is our [27:39] field of expertise. This is our [27:40] specialty. We're going to knock this out [27:42] of the park for you, but it's going to [27:44] cost this much, right?" And these sales [27:48] don't happen when you're hat in hand and [27:50] desperate, right? Like So, I I think [27:52] when we're sewing seed and we're and [27:54] we're and we're building our equity and [27:57] our value in the space, I think it's [27:59] really important if things are slow [28:01] revenue-wise, not to get caught up in [28:03] that and allow yourself to become [28:05] desperate. You have to recognize that [28:06] that that whole time you weren't [28:08] selling, you were building the value [28:10] that is going to sell. That's the [28:11] hardest thing. That is the hardest [28:13] thing. I remember like yesterday, you [28:15] know, the reason I'm doing this whole [28:16] apprentice program to teach people how [28:17] to run a successful agency is I remember [28:20] begging people to let me build them a [28:21] website for 500 bucks. And then them [28:24] coming in with all kinds of crazy asks [28:26] like like you know, "Well, I want a [28:27] custom slider." Now, remember I'm [28:29] talking like 18 years ago, right? So, "I [28:31] want a custom slider. I want I want a [28:33] gradient background. I want I All these [28:36] things." And I'm trying to figure, [28:37] "Well, how do I code that in the back of [28:38] the of the They called it the editor in [28:40] WordPress, right? You go back and you [28:41] get the code and all that stuff. Um what [28:44] a nightmare. And I did it cuz I was a [28:46] And then I ran into people five [28:49] years, six years later that looked at me [28:50] dead in the eye and went, "You built [28:52] that? [28:53] Dude, that's like a 50 or 60 thousand [28:55] dollar website. What did you charge for [28:57] that?" And I'm like, "$1,200." And [28:59] they're like, "You're a You're [29:01] the reason that people are cheap. You're [29:04] the reason people keep trying to drive [29:05] down the value of what we do. It's [29:07] because there's people that'll do it [29:08] cheap, you know?" And I had to learn the [29:10] hard way that I had to justify my my [29:12] expenses and my charges and all that [29:14] stuff. Yeah. Well, thank you. That's [29:16] Tell us how people can get in touch with [29:17] you, Kurt. [29:18] >> LinkedIn. I'm the only Kurt Von Ahnen on [29:19] LinkedIn. You can reach me there. Or, [29:21] better yet, come to mananamas.com [29:24] and see what we offer over there. Toby, [29:26] you? Also on LinkedIn. My last name is C [29:28] R Y N S. First name Toby. Uh you can [29:30] find me at themightymo.com. [29:35] Uh make sure to like and subscribe and [29:38] whatever you kids are doing these days [29:39] cuz it helps the algorithm. So, thanks [29:42] everybody.  📄 **Full text:** ![[Full Document Contents/Articles/Finding Purpose in Agency Work.md|Finding Purpose in Agency Work by YouTube]] ## Highlights - and this emotional really really tough emotional month and a half and also physically draining because I've been investing so much more time than normal into the business to figure stuff out ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kt43517r2kg5gsjr7ah9c4z0)) - Note: The hidden cost of scaling an agency: an emotionally and physically draining stretch of over-investing time to figure things out. - Tags: atom/literature/h2 - created a a values document recently that I shared with our team to kind of I don't want them coming to me for everything. I want to push responsibility on them and say like ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kt434z33p90yj42bm808j3bb)) - Note: Support during hard periods: a shared values document pushes decisions to the team instead of routing everything through the owner. - Tags: atom/literature/h1 - it. Set a boundary and say happy to do it here's here's the invoice. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kt4353djkkbzqwrd6gxmgwy3)) - Note: Boundary-setting with clients: if a request isn't fair, set a boundary — or quote the invoice for it. - Tags: atom/literature/h3