French Friday Can We Redefine Christian Zionism

French Friday: Can We Redefine Christian Zionism? ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/iTVCejHwgo0/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [French Friday: Can We Redefine Christian Zionism?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTVCejHwgo0) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [anti-semitism, christian-zionism, israel-palestine, religious-liberty, american-history] > author: Skye Jethani > source: Holy Post Media > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTVCejHwgo0 > date created: 2025-01-27 10:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: French Friday: Can We Redefine Christian Zionism? >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Examine rise of anti-semitism in MAGA movement — Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens examples #anti-semitism - [H2] Differentiate between anti-semitism and legitimate Israel criticism — avoiding extremes on both sides #israel-palestine - [H3] Consider Christian response to both anti-semitism and Palestinian rights — ethical framework needed #christian-zionism ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [David French New York Times Article on Supreme Court](URL) - [Advisory Opinions Podcast](URL) ## 📝 Summary - David French discusses rising anti-semitism in MAGA movement and attempts to redefine Christian Zionism - Key concern: influential right-wing voices like Tucker Carlson and Candace Owens spreading anti-semitic conspiracy theories - French proposes Christian Zionism based on ethics rather than prophecy - supporting Israel's right to exist while advocating equally for Palestinian rights - Discussion includes historical context through film "Testament of Ann Lee" about religious persecution in early America - Bottom line: Need for Christian response to anti-semitism that doesn't dehumanize Palestinians ## 📖 Main Content French argues that anti-semitism is surging on the political right due to conspiracy thinking and a "no enemies to the right" mentality that radicalizes discourse. He distinguishes between legitimate criticism of Israeli policies and anti-semitic conspiracy theories. French advocates for redefining Christian Zionism as an ethical position supporting both Israeli security and Palestinian dignity, rejecting prophecy-driven interpretations that treat Palestinians as lesser. The conversation explores how Christian ethics should inform foreign policy discussions around Israel-Palestine while avoiding both anti-semitic and anti-Palestinian extremes. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/iTVCejHwgo0?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and weather delays - Key idea: Winter storms in Nashville caused infrastructure collapse and power outages - Evidence: "Trees were collapsed all over the road... total pitch blackness, no lights, no street" #### ⏱️ [08:30](https://youtu.be/iTVCejHwgo0?t=510) — [H2] Rise of anti-semitism on MAGA right - Key idea: Anti-semitism growing among influential right-wing voices with audience rewards - Evidence: "Tucker Carlson Candace Owens... you're seeing explosive growth of anti-semitism" #### ⏱️ [12:15](https://youtu.be/iTVCejHwgo0?t=735) — [H1] Conspiracy thinking leads to anti-semitism - Key idea: Conspiratorial mindset naturally progresses toward anti-semitic explanations - Evidence: "As soon as a community gets conspiratorial... start the clock. Anti-semitism is on its way" #### ⏱️ [15:45](https://youtu.be/iTVCejHwgo0?t=945) — [H2] Candace Owens Jewish supremacist claims - Key idea: Modern conspiracy theories recycling ancient anti-semitic narratives - Evidence: "Jewish supremacists had everything to do with the Civil War... Jewish people were in control of the slave trade" #### ⏱️ [18:20](https://youtu.be/iTVCejHwgo0?t=1100) — [H1] Theological roots of Christian anti-semitism - Key idea: Replacement theology cuts Jews off from God's grace and blames them for crucifixion - Evidence: "When Jesus came, the special relationship between God and the Jewish people was severed... they killed Jesus" #### ⏱️ [22:10](https://youtu.be/iTVCejHwgo0?t=1330) — [H2] No enemies to the right dynamic - Key idea: Right-wing culture only accepts criticism from further right, creating radicalization - Evidence: "Criticisms from the right are valid... criticisms from the left are wokeness" #### ⏱️ [28:45](https://youtu.be/iTVCejHwgo0?t=1725) — [H1] Differentiating anti-semitism from Israel criticism - Key idea: Must distinguish legitimate policy criticism from anti-semitic conspiracy theories - Evidence: "There are absolute loons on each end of the spectrum... radical and extreme and confident" #### ⏱️ [35:20](https://youtu.be/iTVCejHwgo0?t=2120) — [H2] French's definition of Christian Zionism - Key idea: Support for Jewish state based on Christian ethics, not prophecy - Evidence: "Defense of the existence of Israel as a Jewish state... through the use of Christian ethics and morality" #### ⏱️ [42:30](https://youtu.be/iTVCejHwgo0?t=2550) — [H1] Equal dignity for Palestinians and Israelis - Key idea: Christian ethics demands equal treatment and rights for all people - Evidence: "Any form of advocacy for Israel that treats Palestinians as any less deserving... isn't just unchristian, it's anti-Christian" #### ⏱️ [48:15](https://youtu.be/iTVCejHwgo0?t=2895) — [H2] Jethani's concerns about Christian Zionist label - Key idea: Term carries theological baggage that hinders productive dialogue - Evidence: "Christian Zionism... is largely equated with a dispensationalist view... interpretation of prophecy" #### ⏱️ [55:40](https://youtu.be/iTVCejHwgo0?t=3340) — [H1] Need for Christian response to Christian anti-semitism - Key idea: Christian arguments needed to counter Christian-framed anti-semitism - Evidence: "If one side is making a Christian argument... the side making the Christian argument tends to win" #### ⏱️ [62:20](https://youtu.be/iTVCejHwgo0?t=3740) — [H2] Testament of Ann Lee film discussion - Key idea: Story of Shaker founder illustrates American promise and failure on religious liberty - Evidence: "Coming to America for freedom... first things they see? They see a slave auction" #### ⏱️ [68:50](https://youtu.be/iTVCejHwgo0?t=4130) — [H1] Already and not yet of American ideals - Key idea: America has aspirational goals but consistently falls short in practice - Evidence: "Every man shall live under his own vine and fig tree... how many more caskets will there be under the tree of liberty" ## 📚 References - [David French New York Times pieces on Israel-Palestine](URL) - [Advisory Opinions podcast with Sarah Isgur](URL) - [Testament of Ann Lee film](URL) - [Tucker Carlson interview with Mike Huckabee](URL) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Anti-semitism is rising on the political right through conspiracy thinking and audience incentives that reward extreme positions rather than punish them - Christian Zionism should be redefined as supporting Israel's existence based on Christian ethics while equally advocating for Palestinian dignity and rights - The "no enemies to the right" mentality creates a one-way ratchet toward radicalization since only criticism from the left gets dismissed as "wokeness" ## 📰 Newsletter David French warns about rising anti-semitism in conservative circles while proposing a Christian response rooted in ethics rather than prophecy. His call for equal dignity for both Israelis and Palestinians offers a framework for navigating complex foreign policy discussions without falling into conspiratorial thinking or dehumanizing rhetoric. Key insight: The same Christian ethics that oppose anti-semitism must also advocate for Palestinian rights - consistency matters more than tribal loyalty. Practical application: When discussing Israel-Palestine, avoid both extremes that deny either people's right to safety and self-determination. Resources: [Anti-Defamation League](https://adl.org/), [Christians for Fair Witness](URL), [Israeli-Palestinian Dialogue](URL) ## ✅ Action Items #### Community - Religious leaders: Develop teaching materials distinguishing legitimate criticism from conspiracy theories - Educators: Create curriculum on history of anti-semitism and its connection to conspiracy thinking - Media: Establish editorial standards for platforming voices spreading ethnic conspiracies - Interfaith: Facilitate dialogue between Jewish, Christian, and Muslim Palestinian communities #### OSPO - Policy development: Guidelines for identifying and addressing hate speech in open source communities - Community standards: Clear consequences for anti-semitic or anti-Palestinian rhetoric - Educational initiatives: Training on recognizing religious and ethnic bias in technical discussions #### WordPress - Community: Moderation policies for WordCamps and meetups regarding discriminatory speech - Documentation: Guidelines for inclusive language in official communications - Leadership: Training for community team on handling religious and ethnic conflicts ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Conspiracy-prone communities will develop anti-semitic tendencies within predictable timeframes - Christian arguments against anti-semitism will be more effective with Christian audiences than secular approaches - Redefining contested terms like "Christian Zionism" can shift discourse in productive directions - Equal rights frameworks reduce zero-sum thinking in ethnic conflicts ### 📊 Methodology - Historical analysis: Track correlation between conspiracy adoption and anti-semitic rhetoric emergence - Survey research: Test effectiveness of religious vs secular anti-bias messaging - Content analysis: Measure audience response to redefined theological terminology ### ❓ Questions - Can theological terms be successfully reclaimed from extremist interpretations? - What role does audience incentive structure play in radicalizing public discourse? - How do religious and ethnic minorities balance advocacy for their own rights with advocacy for others? ### 🔮 Future Research - Longitudinal studies on conspiracy theory progression patterns - Comparative analysis of anti-semitism across different political movements - Effectiveness research on interfaith dialogue approaches to Middle East conflicts ### 💡 Implications - Policy: Foreign aid decisions should consider human rights records for all recipients equally - Education: Religious literacy programs needed to counter theological anti-semitism - Media: Platform responsibilities for amplifying voices that spread ethnic conspiracies - Security: Anti-semitic conspiracy theories pose domestic terrorism risks requiring monitoring ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th grade #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: None identified in audio format - Improve: Timeline graphics of anti-semitic conspiracy theory spread, maps of Middle East conflicts #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full conversational podcast format with multiple perspectives - Improve: Include clips from referenced Tucker Carlson interviews for context #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Extensive definitions, theological terminology explanations, historical analogies - Improve: Glossary of terms like "replacement theology," "dispensationalism" #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: None identified - Improve: Interactive timeline of Christian-Jewish relations, case study exercises #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear cause-effect relationships between conspiracy thinking and anti-semitism - Improve: Decision trees for evaluating legitimate vs illegitimate criticism #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Dialogue format models respectful disagreement - Improve: Discussion questions for faith communities, interfaith dialogue guides #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Reflection prompts about personal theological positions - Improve: Self-assessment tools for recognizing bias, journaling questions #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Historical patterns and cultural ecosystem analysis - Improve: Environmental metaphors for how ideas spread through communities ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear speaker identification throughout transcript - Improve: Timestamp formatting for navigation, heading structure for topics #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard YouTube controls available - Improve: Chapter markers for easy navigation between topics #### Contrast and readability - Present: High contrast YouTube player interface - Improve: Transcript formatting with better visual hierarchy #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: YouTube supports zoom and responsive design - Improve: Dedicated transcript page with better text controls #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided - Improve: Time-synced captions, downloadable transcript file #### Forms and interactions - Present: Standard YouTube commenting interface - Improve: Moderated discussion space with better accessibility ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion includes multiple religious traditions (Protestant, Catholic, Jewish) - Improve: Include Palestinian Christian perspectives, Muslim viewpoints #### Inclusive language - Present: Careful distinction between ethnic groups and political positions - Improve: More consistent person-first language, avoid generalizations #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Long-form conversation allows processing time - Improve: Topic markers, content warnings for discussing genocide and persecution #### Representation - Present: Two white male Christian perspectives primarily featured - Improve: Include voices from Jewish, Palestinian, Muslim communities #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful tone even during disagreement - Improve: Clearer content warnings, resources for those triggered by anti-semitism discussion ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Clear logical progression from conspiracy thinking to anti-semitism - Inductive strength: Multiple examples support pattern of right-wing radicalization - Causal reasoning: "No enemies to the right" mechanism well-explained - Analogical strength: Kurdistan comparison effectively illustrates principles #### Fallacies - False dichotomy: Occasionally presents only extreme positions on Israel-Palestine - Appeal to consequences: Some arguments based on what "leads to" rather than what "is true" #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Thoughtful, measured, willing to engage complexity and nuance ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No significant denial patterns observed - Attack: No attacks on accusers identified - Reverse victim/offender: Discussion avoids victim-offender reversals - Emotional cues: Appropriate concern and sadness about anti-semitism rise ## 🎯 Conclusion French and Jethani demonstrate how to engage complex, emotionally charged topics like anti-semitism and Israel-Palestine with nuance and principle. The key insight is that consistency in applying ethical frameworks - whether Christian ethics or human rights - provides a path between extremes that either demonize Jews or dehumanize Palestinians. The conversation models how theological terms can be reclaimed from extremist interpretations while acknowledging the practical challenges of loaded language. Their discussion of the "Testament of Ann Lee" film reinforces that America's promise of religious liberty remains unfulfilled, requiring continued vigilance against persecution of any minority group. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### [H1] Conspiracy thinking naturally leads to anti-semitism > [!quote] French Friday: Can We Redefine Christian Zionism? by Skye Jethani via Holy Post Media. Published 2025. Accessed 2025-01-27. > "As soon as a community gets conspiratorial, just as soon as they get conspiratorial, it's like start the clock. Anti-semitism is on its way." French explains the psychological mechanism connecting conspiracy mindset to anti-Jewish sentiment across cultures. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/iTVCejHwgo0?t=735#H1) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_conspiracy_antisemitism ### [H2] Christian ethics demands equal treatment of all peoples > [!quote] French Friday --- ## Full Transcript [00:01] Guess what day it is? [00:04] It's French fry day. It's French fry [00:06] day. So grab your prize and say hooray. [00:09] Drench is here to play on French fry [00:12] day. It's French fry day. [00:18] >> Hey everybody, welcome back to the Sky [00:19] Pod brought to you by Holy Post Media [00:21] and Universal Exports. I am back with [00:23] David French. Hi David. [00:26] >> Sky, great to see you. It's been a [00:27] minute. We we we missed French Friday [00:30] for January. [00:31] >> We did. And I and I know you made a [00:33] heroic effort to try to make it work, [00:34] but mother nature was aligned against [00:36] us. [00:37] >> Oh. Oh my goodness. I had I had the most [00:40] adventurous two-mile drive of my life [00:43] the night the ice storms took out [00:45] everything in Nashville. It took me 40 [00:48] minutes to drive 1.9 miles to the golden [00:51] light of Waffle House to secure a hot [00:54] meal. Was it a white knuckle kind of [00:57] drive with the ice? Because some of [00:58] those I've been in those circumstances. [01:00] It's terrifying. [01:01] >> Oh, well, it was a full inch of ice. So, [01:03] trees were collapsed all over the road. [01:06] Those the roads had about three inches [01:08] of snow with an inch of ice on top. And [01:10] I have a four-wheel drive, which by the [01:12] way, like at that point, every southern [01:15] man was turning to their wives and [01:16] saying, "See, see, this is why this is [01:20] why he needed the four-wheel drive." But [01:22] I had the four-wheel drive, you know, [01:24] four and but I had to turn back four or [01:27] five times because of different roads [01:29] were blocked by fallen trees. I mean, it [01:30] was it was apocalyptic there for that [01:33] first couple of days in Nashville. Just [01:35] all the trees down everywhere, total [01:37] pitch blackness, no lights, no street. [01:40] It it was weird to be in the middle of a [01:43] major city and it just be dark, just [01:46] completely dark and super cold. So, I [01:49] felt like we were in, you know, 1787 for [01:52] a minute. [01:53] >> Well, you're you're either in 1787 or [01:54] you could be in 2027 when AI takes over [01:57] and shuts down the grid and we're all [01:59] scrging for scraps. [02:01] >> Well, fortunately, our Pentagon is [02:02] wanting Anthropic to um unleash its AI [02:06] to be able to open fire without a human [02:09] intervention, which I don't know how [02:11] that could possibly go wrong, Sky. Like, [02:13] I don't know what could possibly be. [02:15] There was a Marvel movie with this plot [02:18] if you remember um the first what was [02:20] it? Captain America. [02:22] >> Uh which one was it? [02:25] >> Oh, the Winter Soldier where they're [02:26] making those flying hovercraft things [02:28] that were going to shoot people using [02:30] Okay, we're in weird weird territory. [02:33] >> It's not what I want to talk about [02:34] today, but um it's not too far off [02:37] because there are some current events [02:38] happening that um and we could spend the [02:40] time talking about the Scotas ruling, [02:41] about tariffs. [02:43] You've written some fantastic pieces [02:45] about that. You and Sarah have done some [02:46] really great reporting and explanation [02:48] of that ruling. I found it thoroughly [02:51] fascinating how especially Justice [02:53] Gorsuch and his uh concurring opinion [02:56] outlined all of the different positions. [02:59] >> It was a festivist. He had beef with [03:01] everybody except himself and Justice [03:03] Roberts. [03:04] >> I know. He seems like the kind of person [03:06] I would love to have a couple drinks [03:07] with and get the his real opinions out [03:10] on things, although he seems to be [03:11] sharing them pretty loosely now. Um, [03:13] well, [03:15] yeah, he is uh he's an interesting guy. [03:17] And I think the thing is though, if you [03:20] had drinks with him, he would be very [03:22] happy to talk to you about his judicial [03:24] opinions and not at all willing to talk [03:27] to you about like why, who he is, what's [03:31] his background, like all of that stuff. [03:33] I I I interviewed him [03:35] >> and oh gosh, this was a couple years [03:38] ago. You found him to be a personally [03:40] private person but loquacious about his [03:43] jurist prudence. [03:44] >> Yeah. So very loquacious about his [03:46] judicial philosophy and I was just like [03:48] I was I was you know interviewing him [03:50] and really trying to establish you know [03:52] like hey you know we're we're talking [03:56] you know and having a really great [03:57] conversation about juristprudence. Now I [04:00] want to ask something about your origin [04:02] story like where where where does this [04:05] come from? He shut that down really [04:08] quickly, Sky. He shut that down really [04:11] quickly. So, yeah, he does not like to [04:13] be or at least certainly not. I I don't [04:16] want to make blanket statements because [04:17] I've had one interview, but he was not [04:20] interested in in any being analyzed by [04:22] me. Let me just put it that way. [04:24] >> All right. Well, I respect that. I [04:26] respect that. Anyway, I want to point [04:28] everybody to the stuff you've done at AO [04:30] advisory opinions. You've written a [04:32] really great piece in the New York Times [04:33] explaining why this recent ruling by the [04:35] Supreme Court might be the most [04:37] important one of the 21st century so [04:39] far. [04:40] >> Lots of good stuff there, but we're not [04:42] going to talk about it cuz I want to [04:43] talk about a piece you wrote a couple [04:44] weeks ago about the rise of [04:48] anti-semitism, particularly on the MAGA, [04:51] right, and how that links to Christian [04:53] Zionism. I I I appreciated your article. [04:56] I agreed with a lot of it. There's a [04:58] couple bones I want to pick with you, [04:59] though. [05:00] >> Sure. about this, but I think it's an [05:02] important topic because it comes up in [05:04] Christian communities quite a bit as it [05:05] relates to America's foreign policy with [05:07] Israel. But let's begin with where you [05:10] begin, which is an examination of what [05:12] exactly is going on on the MAGA right [05:16] >> as it relates to anti-semitism and how [05:18] what do you what's your explanation for [05:21] the rise of anti-semitism on the right? [05:24] >> Yeah. So it's very complicated but the [05:26] short answer is that what is going on is [05:28] that some of the most popular voices on [05:31] the right uh some of the most [05:32] influential voices on the right whether [05:34] it's a Tucker Carlson Candace Owens of [05:37] course a Nick Fuentes who you know he's [05:39] said words like I love Hitler or you [05:41] know equivalent that you're seeing a [05:45] explosive growth of anti-semitism you're [05:47] seeing it in some of the biggest voices [05:49] and then you're beginning to see that [05:50] people are sort of glomming on to this [05:53] And as they glom on to it, they get [05:56] bigger and they have more of a of a [05:58] voice. In other words, once you join the [06:01] wave of anti-semitism, your voice [06:03] doesn't diminish, [06:05] it expands, it grows. Okay? So, that's [06:09] what we're seeing on the right. So, [06:10] we've got some of the biggest voices [06:12] now. There there are a lot of people who [06:13] push back on them, but here's the [06:15] interesting thing. A lot of the people [06:16] who push back on them sometimes see [06:18] their audience shrink. They lose [06:21] subscribers. They lose people. And so [06:23] you have this phenomenon where you know [06:26] for example [06:27] a Megan Kelly who has essentially you [06:30] know in many ways become kind of like a [06:32] human weather vein like she where you [06:35] know where MAGA winds are blowing you're [06:37] going to see Megan really staking out [06:39] that ground and and one thing that is [06:41] interesting to me is how reluctant she [06:44] has been to weigh in and use her voice [06:47] to like clearly condemn a Candace Owens [06:49] and some others that [06:52] and and I I think part of the reason is [06:53] that this is where some of the growth is [06:56] on the right. This is where you're [06:59] gaining audience and influence on the [07:00] right and sky is coming from a lot of [07:03] different places. The the first thing to [07:05] understand is that anti-semitism and [07:08] conspiracy thinking [07:10] >> just go together like and the reasons [07:13] are and they have for a long time. It's [07:16] like as soon as a community gets [07:18] conspiratorial, just as soon as they get [07:21] conspiratorial, it's like start the [07:23] clock. Anti-semitism is on its way. [07:27] >> To that end, I want to reference [07:29] something you quote in your piece from [07:30] Candace Owens where she said, this is a [07:33] quote, "Jewish supremacists had [07:34] everything to do with the Civil War in [07:36] America and that Jewish people were in [07:38] control of the slave trade. They've [07:40] buried a lot of it, but it's there and [07:41] you can find it." That's her quote. So [07:44] this isn't like they're it's a recent [07:46] conspiracy theory around Jews are doing [07:47] this. She's citing the Civil War was [07:49] caused and slavery itself by the Jews. [07:52] >> Yeah. I mean that's what we're dealing [07:54] with. So a lot of this is and you know [07:56] you you talk to people like Yer [07:57] Rosenberg over at at the Atlantic and he [08:00] has a sort of a much richer explanation [08:02] than this. He's he's been a student of [08:04] anti-semitism for a while, but like [08:06] there is some bottom line stuff here [08:08] about um just cons the rise of [08:12] conspiracy thinking means a rise in [08:14] anti-semitism. And one of the things you [08:16] see from both the far left and the far [08:18] right in this country is an enormous [08:20] amount of conspiracism. Just a huge [08:23] amount. So that's no surprise. The other [08:26] thing that you're seeing that's on the [08:27] right but not on the left is sort of the [08:30] rise of a sort of hypertraditionalist [08:32] fundamentalist Catholicism and [08:34] Protestantism [08:36] >> that is uh so for example on the [08:39] Catholic side that rejects Vatican 2 [08:42] like Vatican 2 that's when the church [08:44] went wrong and really wants prevatican 2 [08:46] Catholicism and then you really have [08:49] some of the folks in Protestant world [08:52] and who are very dedicated to Christian [08:54] nationalism [08:55] They don't have much patience for the [08:57] existence of a Jewish state unless the [09:00] Jewish state is ethnically Jewish and [09:03] theologically Christian, right? They [09:04] they don't necessarily and they have a [09:07] very sharp view. And both both of these [09:09] views have a have a sort of a similar [09:11] theological background and sort of a [09:13] similar theological approach. And it's [09:16] basically summed up as step one, [09:20] uh, when Jesus came, the special [09:23] relationship between God and the Jewish [09:25] people was severed. It's over. The the [09:28] purpose of the Jewish people to bring [09:29] the Messiah, to be the people who ushers [09:31] in the Messiah, is over. It's done. Now [09:34] you're just any but like anybody else. [09:36] And the chosen people, the chosen people [09:38] are Christians. And so, and then you add [09:42] on to that that they they really just [09:45] twist biblical verses about the [09:47] crucifixion to say not only did the Jews [09:51] have they been cut off from the tree of [09:53] life, they have they killed Jesus. So, [09:57] they're the people who killed Jesus, [09:58] they're cut off from God's grace. And it [10:01] doesn't take a rocket scientist to [10:03] figure out sort of how Christian [10:04] attitudes harden against Jewish people [10:07] when they've been cut off from the tree [10:09] of life. They killed Jesus. And this is [10:11] where you get a lot of that prevatican 2 [10:14] Catholic anti-semitism that was the [10:16] scourge, this scourge of Jewish people [10:19] in Europe for years and years and years. [10:22] >> So the arguments you just articulated [10:24] there are are not they're not new. They [10:29] no [10:29] >> they existed in in medieval Europe [10:32] predominantly and were we have quotes of [10:35] Martin Luther the Protestant reformer [10:37] using some of the awful things [10:38] >> right some of some of that same logic so [10:41] when you hear people paring those ideas [10:43] today they're not getting that from [10:45] scripture obviously [10:46] >> and they're not getting it from what I [10:48] would argue are renowned or credible [10:51] theologians they're getting it from [10:53] medieval stereotypes of anti-semitism [10:55] and and and and Jewishness from Europe, [10:59] but for whatever reason, civilizational [11:01] reasons, Christian ideals of what the [11:03] West should be like, they're just paring [11:05] all of those things. The the question I [11:08] have, there's multiple questions I want [11:09] to go into here, but one is [11:12] there has been a form of anti-semitism [11:14] on the left for some time in part [11:17] because the left did not like the United [11:20] States international support for the [11:22] state of Israel. [11:24] >> Right. Uh um but the at least in my [11:27] lifetime the conservative end of the [11:29] political spectrum in the United States [11:30] tended to be very pro-Israel [11:33] and would not tolerate anti-semitic [11:36] ideas. [11:37] >> Yeah. [11:38] >> At least not in not in the spotlight. [11:40] Maybe on the fringes it existed. It's [11:42] always been there, but it hasn't been. [11:43] You just mentioned how different voices [11:45] are are spewing this stuff and are being [11:48] rewarded for it on the right. It's far [11:50] from being shut down or a blemish on [11:54] someone's record. They are gaining [11:56] followers and I assume revenue from [11:59] using. What do you attribute that shift [12:03] to? Well, I think it is the relentless [12:06] momentum whether it's explicit or [12:09] implicit of no enemies to the right. So [12:12] if you you've had a culture for a long [12:15] time that it is totally acceptable to [12:19] critique a member of the Republican [12:20] party, the conservative legal movement [12:22] or whatever from the right. [12:24] >> And so a critique from the right stings. [12:28] It's the thing you have to worry about. [12:29] Just like if you were on the left side [12:30] of the spectrum, let's say you're a [12:31] university professor, if you're getting [12:33] critiqued by the TPUSA chapter on [12:36] campus, well, it could be really bad [12:38] from people off campus piling on to you. [12:40] But you're going to get a lot of support [12:41] rallying on campus. But if you critique, [12:43] say, Students for Justice for Palestine [12:45] on campus and you're a solid like left [12:48] liberal person, you're going to get a [12:50] lot of blowback from your friends, quote [12:54] unquote. And so there's been a culture [12:58] on the right for 10 plus years, probably [13:00] longer than that, which is criticisms [13:04] from the right are valid and criticisms [13:06] from the right must be taken seriously. [13:08] criticisms from the left are wokeness. [13:11] And so what that what happens is you [13:14] have a one-way ratchet that radicalizes. [13:16] And so if you accept a criticism from [13:19] the left of you, let's you know, even if [13:21] you're like a hardcore like 99% [13:26] rightwinger, if if if that 1% gets to [13:29] you, then it's like what happened to [13:31] Sky? What happened to David? I mean, [13:34] he's paying attention to the progressive [13:36] gaze, right? But then if you're getting [13:38] stuff from the right, it's like you got [13:40] to answer that. You got to deal with [13:42] that. And so it has this relentless pull [13:46] towards the radicalization, then it also [13:48] has a relentless pull towards [13:50] conspiracies. Because one of the top [13:53] ways to find yourself crosswise with the [13:56] MAGA, right, and and sort of the core [13:58] MAGA movement is if you debunk a [13:59] conspiracy theory or two. you know, the [14:02] the it's very hard to be in really good [14:04] standing with MAGA and say, "Yeah, the [14:06] 2020 election was totally was free and [14:08] fair, right? It it's it's there are a a [14:12] kind of a series of conspiracies and a [14:14] and a kind of outlook in a worldview [14:16] that's like the ticket of entry into [14:18] true MAGA." And again, once you cross [14:21] that threshold, once you start walking [14:24] down the conspiracy path, anti-semitism [14:26] is just waiting for you with open arms. [14:29] it because it's the it's the turnkey [14:31] conspiracy. It's it can always be the [14:34] Jews, right? And so that that means that [14:36] I I I think the actually difficult [14:39] thing, the actually really serious [14:43] problem that you have is that all these [14:46] people standing up to take on the new [14:48] right-wing conspiracy theories are also [14:52] being labeled as rhinos, as boomers, [14:57] whatever you want to whatever you want [14:59] to call it, that's what they're being [15:00] labeled as. [15:01] >> Yeah. Okay. So, most people know that [15:03] there have always been fringe groups on [15:05] the far far right that were [15:07] anti-Semitic. The KKK, neo-Nazis, those [15:11] kinds of the the the folks marching in [15:13] Charlotte with the torches, the tiki [15:14] torches, saying the Jews will not [15:15] replace us. Those folks have always [15:17] existed on the far right. [15:19] >> But what's changed is it's no longer [15:22] okay to call those people fringe, loons, [15:27] racist, like you can't critique them. [15:30] And so their messaging seems to be [15:32] coming in more and more and more to like [15:34] the normal right. So you do get people [15:37] like Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson [15:39] and Megan Kelly and others who are if [15:42] not platforming neo-Nazis and [15:45] anti-semmites are paring some of their [15:48] conspiracy theories. That's what's so [15:50] weird here. It's not that this is new. [15:52] It's that it's become acceptable and [15:54] even applauded. And I think your theory [15:56] is correct that the no enemies to the [15:58] right idea and you just keep getting [16:00] more and more extreme because of the [16:02] algorithms and everything else that gets [16:03] rewarded these days is really bizarre. [16:05] Okay, here's the pivot that I want us to [16:07] really explore and your piece does this [16:10] as well. What is the link between [16:14] anti-semitism and anti-sionism? [16:18] because the I've had numerous [16:19] conversations with different guests on [16:21] ever since October 7th and the the [16:23] attacks that started the war in Gaza and [16:27] I've been to Israel since the war [16:28] started and I've talked to people on all [16:30] sides and there is this weird thing that [16:32] happens when in some settings if you [16:36] express any criticism of the state of [16:38] Israel or the Netanyahu government or [16:42] the tactics that they're they're using [16:44] in Gaza or if you question the the some [16:48] of the parameters of the modern state of [16:51] Israel, you are accused of being [16:53] anti-semitic, [16:54] >> that these things are synonymous. So [16:57] what's going on there and how do we [16:59] differentiate between the two things? [17:01] >> So the first thing you have to realize [17:02] is there's absolute loons on each end of [17:05] the spectrum. Just loons when it comes [17:07] to this issue. I I I will never forget [17:10] talking to someone uh not long ago who [17:12] said [17:14] there are only a few areas where if you [17:17] write about it, you can expect to see [17:19] and get commentary from people that you [17:22] feel like what is happening where what [17:24] planet are they writing from? Because [17:26] this is so radical. This is so extreme. [17:28] And it's not just radical and extreme [17:30] sky. It's radical and extreme and [17:33] confident. I have my mind is untroubled [17:36] by the doubt of the righteousness of my [17:37] opinion and that's in this world. So [17:41] there are people that unless you will [17:43] say Israel committed genocide, they will [17:46] believe you're a genocide apologist like [17:48] that you are evil to the core, you [17:51] shouldn't be able to speak. And then [17:53] there are people who if you criticize [17:54] anything that Israel does, well then [17:57] you're you're at the very minimum you're [18:01] contributing to anti-semitism. at the [18:03] maximum you're an anti-semite yourself. [18:05] So I wrote a p I wrote a piece I have [18:07] been long a supporter of Israel. Uh and [18:11] I even I represented the interest of the [18:13] government of Israel and I was part of a [18:14] legal team that was representing the [18:16] interests of the government of Israel in [18:17] proceedings at the International [18:19] Criminal Court be after the '08 Gaza [18:22] war. So I'm very familiar with these [18:25] issues. I have looked at IDF tactics. I [18:27] understand IDF tactics. I'm a JAG [18:29] officer. I understand American tactics. [18:31] And I wrote a couple of pieces including [18:34] one where I said the cut off of aid is [18:36] full wrong is wrong and the cabining of [18:39] aid into particularly dangerous areas [18:41] where it's very difficult for people to [18:42] get to is full-on wrong. And in spite of [18:44] all that that I had done, Sky, I was [18:47] accused of blood liel. Of blood liel. [18:50] Like come on. So the first thing you [18:52] have to do if you're going to talk about [18:54] Israel and Palestine in any way that is [18:57] intelligent, re meaningful, reasonable, [18:59] you have to learn to screen out the [19:02] edges. You just have to. It's so hard [19:05] not it's so hard to because they're so [19:07] loud and they're so insistent and [19:08] they're so strident. And so, how do you [19:12] talk about this while screening out the [19:14] edges? The people who believe that [19:16] Israel has absolutely no legitimate [19:18] right to exist versus the people who [19:20] think that Israel not only has a right [19:22] to exist, but it has a right to all of [19:24] the territory. Say, and they'll have [19:26] different biblical time periods, right? [19:28] They'll they'll look at the West Bank [19:30] and they'll say they're entitled to they [19:31] don't call it the West Bank, they call [19:32] it Judea and Samaria. [19:34] >> Did you see Tucker Carlson's recent [19:35] interview with Mike Huckabe? [19:37] >> Yeah. [19:38] >> Gosh, I I hate that. Neither one neither [19:41] one covered themselves in glory in that. [19:42] >> No. And I and I really don't like Tucker [19:44] Carlson, but I I had to give it to him. [19:47] He he held Huckabe's feet to the fire [19:49] and showed the inconsistencies of his [19:51] own position, which was pretty [19:53] illuminating. [19:55] >> Well, you know, Huckabe seemed to [19:57] embrace a maximalist view of Israeli [20:00] domination of the Middle East, which [20:01] I've never even heard any Israeli [20:04] >> leader articulate. You know, [20:07] >> we can get into that in a minute, but [20:08] okay. Before we go further on this, so [20:09] you you say something in your article [20:11] which I want to wholeheartedly agree [20:12] with and and it it's it's avoiding those [20:16] two extremes that you're talking about. [20:17] You wrote this. [20:18] >> Any form of advocacy for Israel that [20:20] treats Palestinians as any less [20:23] deserving of safety and security than [20:24] Israelis isn't just uncchristian, it's [20:28] anti-Christian. It directly contradicts [20:30] the teachings of scripture which place [20:32] Jews and Gentiles in a position of [20:34] equality. [20:35] Okay. Wholeheartedly agree. Amen. [20:39] Full stop. [20:41] Later in the article, you go on to talk [20:43] about you you self-identify as a [20:45] Christian Zionist. [20:47] >> And that term, you know, is triggering [20:50] for a lot of people for different [20:52] reasons. [20:52] >> Yeah. [20:53] >> So what some people would argue that [20:55] calling yourself a Christian Zionist and [20:57] saying what you just said here that I [20:59] quoted are those are incompatible with [21:01] each other. [21:03] So how do you how do you define [21:05] Christian Zionism that yeah that makes [21:08] you comfortable identifying yourself [21:10] with that term? [21:12] >> It is the defense of the existence of [21:15] Israel as a Jew as a as Jewish state not [21:17] through the use of prophecy but through [21:19] the use of Christian ethics and [21:20] morality. Okay. So I distinguish that [21:24] from some of the extreme version of of [21:26] of Christian Zionism which is [21:29] essentially the belief that the modern [21:31] nation state of Israel is the heir to [21:33] the biblical nation of Israel and that [21:36] has been this particular iteration of [21:39] the nation state of Israel has been [21:40] prophesied. It is part of God's plan [21:43] often part of God's plan sorted towards [21:44] the unfolding of the end times. And I [21:47] think debates about what is the role of [21:50] the modern state, nation state of Israel [21:52] in biblical prophecy, I find that debate [21:56] interesting. I also find it irrelevant [21:59] to what national policy should be and [22:02] actually how the Christian church should [22:04] truly interact with Israel. [22:06] >> Okay, hold on. Let me pause you there [22:07] for a second. If I hear what you're [22:08] saying, your definition of Christian [22:10] Zionism is as a Christian rooted in [22:13] Christian ethics and Christian [22:15] teachings, you believe in the right of [22:17] the state of Israel to exist. [22:19] >> Yes. Do you acknowledge though that [22:21] that's not how most people define [22:22] Christian Zionism? [22:24] >> I acknowledge that most people don't [22:26] have a definition of Christian Zionism [22:28] that that it is one of the most [22:33] contentious terms you can possibly [22:35] imagine. Um, [22:36] >> yeah. [22:37] >> And and I would say that there are a lot [22:40] of people who have who have a very [22:43] prophecydriven version of Christian [22:45] Zionism [22:46] >> and there are a lot of people who do [22:47] not. [22:49] >> When I that's the way I would I would [22:51] say it. When I first read your piece and [22:53] that got to that part of it, I kind of [22:55] went, "I'm not sure I'm with you here, [22:57] David." Because it's a little bit, this [22:59] isn't exactly the same, but it's a [23:01] little bit like saying, "Well, I'm a [23:03] Christian and I'm I'm a patriotic [23:06] American, so that makes me a Christian [23:09] nationalist." I'm like, I've heard other [23:12] politicians have made that argument like [23:14] Lauren Boowbert made that argument and [23:16] she has obviously not ident she doesn't [23:18] understand the difference between [23:19] patriotism and nationalism. But a lot of [23:20] people are framing the phrase of [23:22] Christian nationalism. It just means I'm [23:24] a Christian who's patriotic and loves my [23:25] nation. That's not what Christian [23:27] nationalism actually means, at least in [23:28] its historic use. [23:31] Christian Zionism for the most part is [23:34] largely equated with a dispensationalist [23:36] view of the n modern state of Israel as [23:39] it fits into a certain theological [23:41] framework and interpretation of [23:44] prophecy. So [23:46] >> I mean certainly not in the Catholic [23:47] context. Uh [23:50] yeah, perhaps not. But in the way it [23:52] dominates American Protestantism, [23:56] >> that's usually I mean Mike Huckabe would [23:58] be [23:58] >> a Christian Zionist and he would root it [24:00] deeply in [24:01] >> his reading of Genesis 15 and and [24:03] prophecies and things like that. So [24:06] that's what caught me by surprise is I [24:08] also believe the state of Israel has a [24:10] right to exist. I also think I'm [24:12] approaching both Israelis and [24:14] Palestinians through an ethic set by [24:17] Jesus and human dignity and equal [24:18] rights, things like that. But I am very [24:21] hesitant to call myself a Christian [24:22] Zionist because of the way that term is [24:24] often heard and assumed to be equated [24:27] with I think that the modern state of [24:30] Israel has God's ordained blessing to do [24:34] what they want because they have a right [24:37] to this land going back to Genesis. I [24:38] don't agree with that theological [24:40] framework. So I just I understand [24:42] rooting your view in Christian ethics as [24:44] all Christians should. The difference is [24:46] most Christian Zionists I think root [24:48] root it in more than Christian ethics. [24:49] They root it in Christian theology and a [24:52] particular kind of Christian theology. [24:54] >> Yeah. Also there's another element of [24:56] this because so much Christian [24:58] anti-semitism there's been so much [25:00] Christian anti-semitism. There is a need [25:02] for a specifically Christian response to [25:05] Christian anti-semitism. And so part of [25:07] the problem I have is that I don't [25:10] consent to other people's definitions of [25:13] things. Okay? So if if if you're going [25:17] to be if you're going to talk about [25:19] conservatism, for example, I do not [25:21] consent to MAGA's definition of [25:23] conservatism. [25:24] >> Okay? If you're going to talk about [25:26] Christian Zionism, I do not consent to [25:28] Mike Cuckabe's definition of Christian [25:29] Zionism because the fact of the matters [25:32] guy and this is something that I think [25:33] evangelicals forget all the time is [25:35] evangelicalism is really one channel of [25:38] Christianity. It is and one channel [25:41] that's not even the biggest channel. [25:43] It's a ch one channel of Christianity. [25:45] And we get often so parochial and myopic [25:48] as if the arguments that we have with [25:49] each other as evangelicals [25:52] are the Christian arguments, right? that [25:55] I object to that and I object to that [25:57] more and more and more every year that a [25:59] lot of the arguments that you have in [26:01] evangelicalism are actually like [26:04] in some ways given the the numbers of [26:06] people involved and given the sort of [26:08] the strange offshoots and different sex [26:11] in evangelicalism often it's like [26:13] reminds me more of a debate in a dorm [26:16] room over obscure theological points [26:20] than it reminds me of a debate in like [26:23] an actual classroom. room say where [26:25] you're actually having to defend a [26:27] position against its most rigorous [26:28] opposition [26:30] and one of the problems that I have is [26:32] we have an evangelical world that is [26:34] often quite cloistered only listens to [26:37] each other [26:38] >> and it has powerful elements that have [26:41] bought into this sort of you know divine [26:44] that that this idea that the modern [26:46] nation state of Israel has been [26:49] established by God. It is absolutely [26:50] providential. No question about it. And [26:52] we're going to be enemies of God [26:55] if we disagree with the Netanyahu not [26:58] Netanyahu Netanyahu uh administration. I [27:01] it you know at some point it just gets [27:03] absurd, right? And so what I'm trying to [27:05] do is articulate a a version, a vision [27:09] of this that is rooted in my [27:11] Christianity that responds [27:14] to Christian heresy, I think, and [27:16] Christian bigotry in explicitly [27:19] Christian terms, [27:20] >> right? Because [27:22] >> Yeah, [27:22] >> I agree with you on that. Here's my [27:24] question. [27:26] Uh does a Christian response to [27:28] anti-semitism [27:30] have to be Zionism? [27:33] I find it very difficult. [27:37] I find the argument against the idea of [27:41] a Israel is a Jewish state. [27:44] I find that argument it's it is I [27:48] understand it in the abstract. [27:50] The problem I have is in the concrete. [27:53] So there are a lot of people who support [27:56] a Palestinian state [27:59] and they do not support Israel as a [28:00] Jewish state. Well, there are some I [28:02] mean the official position of the United [28:03] States is still a two-state solution. A [28:06] Palestinian state and a Jewish state. [28:07] >> Correct. [28:08] >> But um the way I have generally [28:12] understood I mean there's a lot of [28:13] variation within the term Zionism. [28:15] Clearly [28:17] >> Tom Freriedman has written a lot about [28:18] this over the years, your colleague at [28:20] the New York Times and he talks about [28:22] three incompatible desires that Zionists [28:25] want. And he his argument is you can [28:27] have any two of the three but it's hard [28:29] to have all three. And the three [28:31] elements are a Jewish state that [28:33] occupies all the land that is a [28:35] democracy. [28:37] He says you can have a democracy that's [28:38] all the land but it's not Jewish. You [28:40] can have a Jewish state that's a [28:42] democracy but it's not going to get all [28:43] the land. Or you can get a democracy [28:46] with all I forget how that all goes. But [28:49] some Zionists are arguing modern state [28:52] of Israel should have should have all [28:54] that land you know from the river to the [28:55] sea kind of idea. It should be a Jewish [28:57] state and a democracy. And he keeps [29:01] arguing you can't have all three of [29:02] these. But that seems to be what some [29:04] Zionism or the most strident form of [29:06] Zionism is arguing. [29:07] >> Extremists. [29:08] >> Yes. [29:09] >> Yes. Extremists want that. No question. [29:11] >> So can you have be a Zionist and say no, [29:14] the state of Israel should be a [29:15] pluralistic culture that includes people [29:17] who aren't Jewish? [29:18] >> Well, you can be a Zionist and say [29:20] because the modern state of Israel is a [29:22] pluralistic culture that includes people [29:23] who are not Jewish. It just has a very [29:25] large Jewish majority and so which is [29:29] pro going to continue for the next 100 [29:31] 500 years unless Israel conquers the [29:34] West Bank and assimilates it and does [29:36] what the maximal Zionists want to do in [29:39] which case then all of a sudden you have [29:41] something much more like an apartheid [29:42] state where you would have a you know a [29:44] Jewish minority or a 50/50 that has [29:47] engaged in a wars of conquest [29:50] >> to assimilate within the borders a whole [29:53] bunch of people that If everyone was [29:54] granted equal rights, it wouldn't be a [29:56] Jewish state anymore. Like, think about [29:57] it like this. Think about if I'm [29:59] supporter of Kurdish autonomy and [30:01] independence, which I am. So, you have a [30:05] concrete geographic region that is [30:08] disproportionately inhabited by an [30:10] enormous number, a disproportionately [30:12] high number of Kurdish citizens. They [30:15] grant civil rights to non-Kurdish [30:16] citizens, but definitely because of the [30:18] geography, it's a majority Kurdish. So I [30:20] feel like I could say because of the [30:22] historical oppression of Kurds and [30:25] because Kurds have been singled out for [30:27] being Kurds [30:29] for oppression that one of the absolute [30:32] best ways to preserve a people from [30:35] domination oppression is through the [30:37] means of a nation state. And so would [30:40] somebody say that I am therefore for [30:41] apartheid Kurdistan? No. But if [30:44] Kurdistan decided that I'm we're it's [30:46] going to invade all of Iraq and rule the [30:49] Shia and Sunni Arab population as quote [30:52] Kurdistan, [30:54] that's a problem. Similarly, if you had [30:56] a Palestinian state and it's a [30:58] Palestinian state, but then it tried to [30:59] conquer Israel [31:01] as a quote Palestinian state, you've got [31:04] a problem. [31:04] >> Yeah. Well, we're not going to solve the [31:06] Israeli Palestinian conflict obviously [31:08] in this conversation, but some would [31:09] argue depending on what point in the [31:11] last hundred years you want to look at. [31:13] It hasn't been a Jewish majority state. [31:16] There were equal, if not more, [31:17] Palestinians on that piece of land for a [31:19] lot of the last century until they were [31:22] removed or forced into exile or as [31:25] refugees. You know, it goes on and on [31:27] and on. So it's your analogy doesn't [31:29] quite work cuz I would agree if you have [31:31] a a a designated part set of land where [31:35] 80% of the people are all ethnically the [31:38] same and there's a minority group there [31:39] that's given equal rights of course that [31:41] could be Kurdistan that could be Israel [31:42] that could be whatever that's not the [31:43] situation [31:45] in this in this geographic space that we [31:48] are talking about. It is much it's not [31:50] as clearly evident that Jews are [31:53] overwhelmingly the majority on that [31:54] piece of land which is where all the [31:56] conflict comes from. And so I mean [31:58] that's the bottom line the problem is [32:00] you have the you also have overlaying [32:03] this the Holocaust. [32:05] >> Sure. But that gets that gets back to my [32:07] point. If you want to rewind history to [32:09] I don't 1945 or 1920. The question is, [32:13] is the only solution to anti-semitism [32:16] Zionism or Zionism as defined by the [32:20] most radical proponents [32:23] of [32:23] >> obviously defined by the most radical [32:25] proponents is absurd, right? They're [32:27] they're loons. They're loons. Okay. So, [32:30] but [32:32] how many years of history of vicious [32:34] violent genocidal persecution do you [32:36] need to have before you can say that, [32:39] you know, perhaps the only way this [32:42] people can live in some degree of [32:43] security and peace is if they have their [32:45] own state. And, you know, if you go back [32:47] to the partition in 1947, you know, you [32:50] had, if you look at that map, it was [32:53] divided up into majority Palestinian [32:55] areas and majority Jewish areas. So, it [32:56] was kind of a patchwork quilt, but in [32:58] both of those both of those areas, there [33:02] was a majority Palestinian uh community [33:05] and a majority Jewish community. And and [33:07] the Jewish states said yes to that. The [33:09] Palestinian and all their Arab states [33:11] said no to that. Right? [33:12] >> And once you do that and you launch [33:14] offensive warfare, [33:17] then the problem that you have is you [33:20] might lose that war. You might lose that [33:22] war. And when you lose that war, you [33:23] don't get to just go, "Oh, our bad, our [33:26] bad. We tried to exterminate you. Now we [33:29] all go to status quo antib, you know, [33:31] antibellum that, you know, so at some [33:33] point my point on this with, you know, [33:36] because people absolutely got upset [33:37] about this piece about it being a Jewish [33:38] state." And I would respond, I'd say, [33:42] you know, do you have the same feeling [33:43] about Kurdistan? Do you have the same [33:45] feeling about [33:47] >> um the Czech Republic, Slovakia? Yeah. [33:51] Yeah. I mean like [33:52] >> and this is a part of your article that [33:54] I think needs to be highlighted because [33:55] it shows your consistency. You wrote [33:58] this as an extension of this commitment. [33:59] No group of people should be subjected [34:01] to abuse or persecution much less [34:03] genocide. You go on in this formulation [34:06] a so-called Christian Zionist would also [34:08] probably be a Christians [34:10] not a phrase you hear every day or have [34:12] a Christian commitment to Palestinian [34:14] statethood. You're saying that the [34:15] persecution or genocide against [34:17] Palestinians is equally abhorentt to the [34:20] Christian mind and we ought to advocate [34:23] for their peaceful existence on an [34:24] autonomous self-governing [34:26] state. And also there's an element of [34:29] this that where there is a Christian [34:31] bigotry that requires a Christian [34:32] response and that Christian bigotry is [34:34] that extreme Zionism that would say [34:37] drive these Palestinian folks off the [34:40] land. And so, you know, it's it's [34:43] interesting. I I like the eye concept of [34:46] equality of treating like with like [34:49] things alike. You know, that's the [34:51] fundamental concept of equal protection [34:53] is similarly situated people should be [34:55] treated similarly. And so if you have a [34:59] geographically compact [35:01] area that is um the home of a deeply [35:06] persecuted minority that has not been [35:09] able to find security under the umbrella [35:11] of safety of anybody else. And in fact, [35:13] all of history is contradicting that [35:15] that's maybe even possible. And it's so [35:18] sad to see the rise of anti-semitism [35:20] here in the United States, which is [35:21] previously been like a real home for [35:23] Jewish people. [35:25] >> So, what do you do with that? And it's [35:27] very interesting to me, and this is [35:28] where anti-semitism [35:30] converges with anti-ionism. [35:32] I know lots of people who would very, [35:34] very happy to see Kurdistan independent. [35:37] I know lots of people who would be very [35:38] happy to see an a Palestinian state [35:41] created out of the West Bank and Gaza [35:42] Strip as a Kurdish state as a [35:44] Palestinian state, but then are [35:47] absolutely revolted at the idea of [35:50] Israel as a Jewish state. So then again, [35:53] one of the one of the issues with [35:54] anti-semitism is that you treat Jews [35:56] differently and worse than other people [35:58] groups. And so if you have an analysis [36:01] of people groups and sovereignty and [36:04] ethnicities and nations and you're [36:06] willing to grant sovereignty and nation [36:09] state status to persecuted people [36:11] groups, but not to Jews, [36:15] but not to Jews, then you're my eyebrows [36:19] going to raise. [36:19] >> Yeah, [36:20] >> my eyebrows. [36:21] >> Like I said earlier, I I also support [36:22] the right of the state of Israel to [36:24] exist. [36:25] Uh, I think what what [36:28] the moment we are in, and I think this [36:30] Tucker Carlson interview with Mike [36:31] Huckabe, who's the current ambassador of [36:33] the United States to Israel, highlights, [36:35] is our foreign policy and our current [36:37] government is aligned with some of the [36:40] most extremist ideas of what Zionism [36:42] means. And it's often at the at the [36:45] expense and and turning a blind eye to [36:48] the abuses of the Netanyahu government [36:50] towards Palestinians, towards people in [36:52] the West Bank, towards Gazins. That's [36:54] what makes it hard in this moment [36:56] because there isn't a strong advocacy in [36:59] the United States government right now [37:00] for the rights of Palestinians. [37:03] At the same time, whenever I bring up [37:05] this topic in various settings and sound [37:07] like I am advocating for the equal [37:09] rights of Palestinians or some critique [37:11] of the Israeli government, what [37:13] sometimes gets thrown at me is, well, [37:14] you're being anti-Semitic, which is [37:16] insane because I don't think criticism [37:19] of the state of Israel means you don't [37:21] believe in the equal dignity and human [37:23] rights of Jewish people anywhere. So [37:26] that's that we just the rhetoric has [37:28] gotten so bizarre in this current [37:30] setting that I wish we could hold these [37:32] things together and it's one of the [37:33] reasons I stay away from the language [37:35] Christian Zionism because it's such a [37:37] loaded triggering term that doesn't help [37:39] the conversation move along. [37:41] >> Well, so that's the difference between [37:42] you and I, Sky. If I there's a term [37:45] being fought over, I run to the battle [37:47] like a moth heading towards flame. And [37:49] I'm like, we got to define this thing. [37:52] And you know, I think you might have [37:55] some pretty prudent like uh this this [37:57] term is getting corrupted and maybe it's [37:59] not very useful. [38:00] >> I would argue the term is corrupted. [38:02] You're trying to redeem it, which okay, [38:04] but I I would rather fight a different [38:06] battle. [38:08] But you know the bottom line is the the [38:10] definition of Zionism is the ex is [38:13] supporting the existence of Israel as a [38:15] Jewish state. That is what Zionism is. [38:18] And what I'm saying is it is absolutely [38:21] that is an absolutely uh ab you know [38:24] that that Zionism not support for [38:26] Netanyahu not support for the various [38:28] Israeli tactics in Gaza. We have to be [38:30] able to walk and chew gum at the same [38:32] time. And when somebody jumps at me for [38:34] saying I'm a Christian Zionist because [38:36] of anything that Netanyahu did, I [38:38] said,"Ive not aware of a definition any [38:41] credible of definition of Christian [38:42] Zionism that includes supporting [38:45] Benjamin Netanyahu any more than I'm [38:47] aware of any definition of patriotism [38:50] of American patriotism that requires me [38:52] to support Donald Trump." No. Now, there [38:56] are radicals [38:58] >> I mean, you and I have seen them all the [38:59] time that will say, "We don't support [39:02] Donald Trump." So, we're not patriots [39:04] and we're not even Christian. [39:05] >> Yeah. I I I think [39:08] >> I have no problem with someone saying as [39:10] a Christian rooted in the ethics of [39:12] Jesus, I'm a Zionist. [39:15] But the moment you say I'm a Christian [39:16] Zionist, it brings all of these [39:19] theological [39:20] all this baggage about Genesis 15 and we [39:24] can't do anything that would be against [39:26] the government of Israel because then [39:27] America won't be blessed and all the [39:29] rights of the it goes on and on and on [39:30] with this bizarre theology. And that's [39:33] where I'm like I that is not a helpful [39:34] conversation. And the assumptions that [39:37] it carries are are [39:39] >> and I I I hear you saying that that's a [39:42] narrow view that captures a lot of [39:44] American evangelicalism, but it's not [39:46] the broader understanding of Christian [39:47] Zionism. [39:49] >> It is the operational one in this [39:50] government today. [39:52] Except that this government isn't [39:54] exactly that. It's very divided. So one [39:57] of the things about this government is [39:59] that it has actually coerced Israel into [40:02] some agreements that [40:04] if Biden had done it then there would be [40:07] anger at Biden. [40:08] >> Sure. I mean even the ceasefire that [40:10] Trump was able to accomplish would never [40:12] have happened under Biden probably. [40:14] >> And some of what we're seeing that we're [40:16] reading as support for Israel is [40:17] actually actually support for the United [40:19] Arab Emirates and other people who have [40:21] been lining Trump's pockets and this [40:24] Trump coalition. I don't think people [40:26] realize how much anti-semitism is in it. [40:29] Um there's an enormous amount including [40:32] within the government. And so this is [40:34] why this battle is so intense is that [40:40] when you had Tucker and you had Huckabe. [40:42] Yeah, Huckabe is the ambassador. But [40:46] does Tucker have supporters and friends [40:48] up and down the Trump administration? [40:50] You better believe it. And so I think [40:52] the actual reality is a lot more [40:54] complicated. I think the actual reality [40:56] is you have an older generation of [40:58] Republicans who are very much they're [41:01] the ones who are most influenced by what [41:03] you might call that extreme Christian [41:04] Zionism. And then you have the younger [41:06] generation of Republicans that is really [41:09] shot through with anti-semitism. [41:11] >> And all of the momentum right now is on [41:14] the side of the younger anti-semitic [41:16] faction. That's where all of this [41:18] momentum is. And so the the ability it [41:22] is I think very important because [41:24] they're they're appealing to [41:25] Christianity [41:27] to support their Zionism very [41:29] explicitly. And so the answer to them [41:32] has to be Christian because you're [41:35] talking to communities that are believe [41:38] if one side is making a Christian [41:40] argument and they're Christians and the [41:41] other side is not making a Christian [41:43] argument, the side making the Christian [41:45] argument tends to win. And so what I'm [41:48] I'm I mean two Christians obviously. And [41:51] so what I'm saying is there a Christian [41:52] argument against the prevatican 2 [41:56] Catholic anti-semites and there's a [41:58] Christian argument against the uh like [42:01] we'll call him Huckabe and and I don't [42:03] know how radical he is as practically as [42:06] a matter of his policies but he seems [42:08] pretty radical. Um, so you have to have [42:10] a Christian arguments against Huckabe [42:12] Huckabeism and you have to have a [42:15] Christian argument against prevatican [42:16] 2ism [42:18] or you're not reaching Christians. And [42:21] so I think that that's a very important [42:23] part of this very important component of [42:25] all of this. [42:25] >> I don't disagree with any of that. I do [42:27] think uh having engaged with quite a few [42:31] Palestinian Christians both here in the [42:33] United States and in Palestine, the [42:37] label of Christian Zionist [42:39] is not going to get you a hearing with [42:42] with with that community for sure. It's [42:44] a huge barrier. So I am all for [42:47] Christian arguments. Absolutely. [42:48] Everywhere we go, we should be [42:49] advocating from a Christian, explicitly [42:52] Christian point of view for equal [42:54] rights, human dignity, safety and [42:56] security, self-determination, all these [42:58] other things for all kinds of different [42:59] people. [43:01] But we need to be shrewd about the way [43:02] we do that and and sensitive to the way [43:05] history has defined terms that can open [43:07] doors or close them. So, okay. Uh before [43:10] we wrap up, I want to briefly talk about [43:12] another piece you wrote this month about [43:14] a movie that you said broke your heart. [43:17] >> And I I'll confess up front it's a movie [43:19] I have not seen. It's not a movie I had [43:21] planned to see, but after reading your [43:23] >> Me I know you say that up front, but uh [43:26] so tell us about the Testament of Anne [43:28] Lee. What is it and why did it strike [43:30] you so deeply? [43:32] >> Okay, so the movie is about Anne Lee. [43:34] Who is Well, that's a news flash. [43:36] Testament of Anne Lee Sky. It's about [43:38] Anley. [43:39] >> Not Annley. [43:40] >> Annley. [43:41] >> Not Angley. Anley. Annley is the founder [43:43] of the Shakers, the Shaker movement. Uh, [43:46] also known as Shaking Quakers, although [43:48] it's less clear that they were actually [43:49] an outgrowth of the Quakers as opposed [43:51] to religious dissident from various [43:52] different traditions. But it's the story [43:55] of her forming the very tiny, and when I [43:58] say tiny Shaker religious sect, I mean [44:01] tiny. uh when they when they formed it [44:04] in England, she encountered brutal [44:08] persecution, just brutal persecution [44:10] because remember England at this time, [44:11] this is colonial era America, uh has a [44:15] very robust state church which she [44:18] desented from. So she's brutally uh [44:20] persecuted. She's uh imprisoned in the [44:23] mo the worst of conditions. At the same [44:25] time, she has this kind of arranged [44:27] marriage to a guy who's not, as the [44:29] movie portrays it, it's he's not kind to [44:31] her. The historical record is a little [44:34] more mixed on that. It's very clear that [44:35] it was sort of an arranged marriage that [44:37] she wasn't really into. And then then [44:40] she gives birth to four children in four [44:41] years who all die. And in the midst of [44:44] this religious persecution, in the midst [44:46] of this suffering and trauma, she says [44:49] she has a revelation from God that the [44:51] thing that is really keeping the the [44:53] millinarian church from purity and [44:56] righteousness is sex. [44:58] >> And when I say sex, guy, I mean all of [45:00] it, [45:00] >> right? Total celibarital, [45:03] >> total celibacy. I mean, I I haven't [45:05] studied this, but when I hear her story [45:07] being in a marriage she didn't really [45:09] want to be in [45:10] >> losing four children sequentially, I [45:14] mean, if I were her, I would be like, [45:16] "Yeah, every sex has brought nothing but [45:18] pain and suffering into my life. [45:21] >> It can't be from God. I'm out." Like, it [45:23] makes sense. There's a logic to it. [45:25] >> Yeah. She also lived in a part of [45:27] Manchester, England that was known for [45:29] its just absolute depravity. So, she's [45:31] surrounded by sexual depravity. She has [45:33] experienced a kind of arranged marriage. [45:35] She has lost four children and she's [45:38] being brutally persecuted by the Church [45:40] of England and English authorities. And [45:42] so she says this is a revelation from [45:45] God. And about eight or nine people kind [45:49] of agree with her like this is not the [45:51] thing that you know you get out in the [45:53] streets and you start preaching this [45:54] sermon that like is packing them in, [45:56] right? [45:57] >> No, this this is not a a church growth [46:00] >> uh strategy for sure. [46:02] So she says, "Let's go to America." [46:05] Which is sort of the call and the cry of [46:07] persecuted people for centuries. Uh and [46:10] this is the early version of this. Let's [46:12] go to America. And so she and I think [46:14] eight others get on a boat and they [46:17] cross the uh Atlantic Ocean in extreme [46:19] hardship as you did. They arrive in the [46:22] United States of America. And this is [46:24] where the movie just was gut punching me [46:26] again and again. So they come to America [46:29] for freedom. And what's one of the first [46:31] things that they see? They see a slave [46:33] auction. Um the revolution. They come in [46:36] the middle of a revolution. What happens [46:38] to them? Well, revolutionary soldiers, [46:40] patriots, colonists [46:42] want to know where they stand. And these [46:44] are shakers who are pacifists. So [46:46] they're they're not just celibate, [46:47] they're also pacifists. They also were [46:50] very egalitarian. So she was a a female [46:53] preacher. She was the leader of the [46:55] sect. [46:56] um they would welcome people who are [46:58] women, who were black, who are white, [46:59] who were Native American. It was very [47:01] egalitarian. So that raised a lot of [47:04] hackles back in that day. So she's [47:06] seized by colonial authorities for not [47:09] swearing allegiance to the colonial [47:10] cause. And then later after an [47:14] underappreciated figure in American [47:15] history, New York Governor George [47:16] Clinton, who is also a leading [47:18] anti-federalist, [47:19] intervenes to say, "What are we doing? [47:21] We don't imprison people for consc, you [47:23] know, rights of conscience." She's let [47:25] out and then she's beaten by her own [47:27] neighbors and beaten by other [47:29] communities to the point where [47:31] um it it essentially kills her. When she [47:34] was re when she was reentered in 1820, [47:36] they found a skull fracture. [47:38] That's how badly she'd been beaten. But [47:41] the movie is so powerful because at the [47:43] very end of it, so you you see this [47:45] woman who's coming to America out of [47:46] hope and yet she's able to establish a [47:50] community, but she's also viciously [47:52] persecuted. Both of these things are [47:54] happening at once. And then in this [47:55] super powerful moment, one of the women [47:57] comes up to her and gives her the news [48:00] that Washington is has surrendered to [48:02] Cornwallis. [48:03] >> And she kind of falls surrendered to [48:05] Washington. [48:05] >> I mean, Cornwallis is that's a that's a [48:07] historical revision, right? [48:09] >> Corn Wallace has surrendered to [48:11] Washington [48:12] >> and she like falls on her knees in [48:14] gratitude because of the hope of liberty [48:16] to come. And then there's this beautiful [48:20] scene at the very end that just tears [48:22] boom just exploded for me is her plain [48:26] pine casket is underneath this beautiful [48:30] painting of a tree. And why would that [48:32] matter? Because remember we just [48:35] referenced Washington. And what was [48:37] Washington's favorite Bible verse? The [48:40] one that he wrote 50 times to people [48:43] including to the Hebrew congregation of [48:44] Rhode Island talking about accepting [48:46] religious liberty. It was Micah 4:4. [48:48] >> Yeah. It's in his farewell address [48:49] famously. [48:50] >> It's in Yes. Every man shall live under [48:52] his own vine and his own fig tree and no [48:54] one shall make him afraid. [48:56] >> And it just struck me to see a casket [48:59] under the tree. [49:01] And it was such a powerful vision of the [49:06] hope of the American experiment [49:09] with the gut punch that the reality is [49:11] that we don't often we we we have failed [49:14] to live up to it time and time again. [49:16] And so I saw it as like, you know, for [49:19] me it was sort of like this very, you [49:21] know, emotional moment that was like, [49:24] how many more caskets will there be [49:26] under the tree of liberty before we can [49:29] be who we are supposed to be [49:31] >> and [49:32] >> so that's why I love that's why I loved [49:33] it, [49:33] >> especially in this moment. And I mean, [49:34] you wrote this piece earlier in February [49:36] when the whole country was riveted by [49:38] what was happening in Minneapolis [49:41] and not just the the tragic deaths of [49:44] some of the protesters, but the the the [49:47] clear stoking of violence and animist [49:50] towards immigrants who many who entered [49:54] this country undocumented, illegally. I [49:56] understand there's a lot of controversy [49:58] about what our national policy should be [50:00] towards that but almost universally [50:02] these people came like Amy Amy Lee Ann [50:06] Lee uh [50:08] >> to seek something better for themselves. [50:10] There was they were drawn to this [50:11] country because of its promises and hope [50:14] >> and we can have a much better system [50:18] that welcomes people and screens people [50:21] and all that that's that's clearly [50:23] needed. But to punish people and [50:26] dehumanize them for the very promise [50:28] upon which this country was built seems [50:31] inconsistent. [50:33] Um, and this story from 200 years ago or [50:35] 250 years ago captures that very live [50:39] debate right now. So I'm I I was I was [50:42] touched by your article even though I [50:43] haven't seen the movie yet. [50:46] I mean, it's so touching, Sky, because [50:48] it really, you know, I I used in the [50:50] article the phrase already and not yet, [50:52] which [50:53] >> you know, I'm sure you've heard that in [50:55] the evangelical world, like there's the [50:56] already. Christ did come. You know, he's [50:59] already defeated death and hell, [51:01] >> but not yet. Like, there isn't the [51:04] second coming. There isn't the [51:05] establishment of Christ's kingdom. You [51:06] know, that that this is we live in that [51:09] already and not yet. And and in many [51:11] ways, we do as a country. We've already [51:14] sort of staked out a lot of ground [51:16] around concepts of liberty and pluralism [51:19] and democracy and rule of law and yet we [51:23] still still 250 years later fall short [51:26] of our own aspirational goals. [51:28] >> Yeah. [51:29] >> And I just thought it was a beautiful [51:30] movie illustrating that on both ends. [51:32] >> It does seem kind of ironic and we've [51:34] talked about this in the past that at [51:35] least again in my lifetime the political [51:38] right side of the spectrum has tended to [51:40] be the more libertarian side. the one [51:42] that says we want limited government. [51:44] Um, don't tread on me. Deregulation. [51:48] Uncle Sam shouldn't be sticking his nose [51:50] into all of our private affairs and [51:51] business and on and on and on. And yet [51:54] that would be sort of the let each [51:55] person, you know, live in peace under [51:57] their own fig tree and and not worry [52:00] about being interfered with and kind of [52:02] that frontier mentality of go west young [52:05] man and be independent. That's been more [52:07] the ethos on the political right. And [52:10] yet today the political right is marked [52:12] by things like Christian nationalism [52:14] which is an illiberal vision that says [52:16] we want to impose upon everyone else [52:18] what we think is right and not let [52:21] people live in peace based on their own [52:23] values, religions or convictions. [52:25] How did we get to that point? You know [52:28] it is a great great great question [52:30] because you know the political right [52:32] also claims to like sort of speak for [52:35] the founders right and but you if you [52:38] look at the founders [52:40] at their best when they were saying what [52:42] they wanted for this country, what they [52:43] aspired to and again I'll say it you [52:45] know they didn't live up to it as I [52:47] wrote in the piece like Washington who [52:49] was so wonderfully dedicated to that [52:50] vine and fig tree uh verse his slaves [52:53] were he did not designate to free his [52:56] slaves until his wife died [52:58] >> that's what that was his intention so [53:00] we're talking about very imperfect [53:02] people but when they were talking about [53:03] what they imagined I want to read for [53:06] you a a very short part of Madison's [53:09] uh remmonstrance memorial and [53:11] remmonstrance against religious [53:12] assessments. This was the very famous [53:15] letter that he wrote against a sort of [53:17] religious assessment for the support of [53:19] particular churches in Virginia. And he [53:22] says this because the proposed [53:24] establishment is a departure from that [53:26] generous policy which offering an asylum [53:29] to the persecuted and oppressed of every [53:33] nation and religious religion promised a [53:36] luster to our country and an assession [53:39] to the number of its citizens. [53:42] That that'll preach Sky like this is [53:47] founding vision. We're a beacon of [53:50] liberty and hope. I was talking to I had [53:52] a the occasion to speak to David Blight [53:54] who's a Yale historian and one of the [53:56] foremost historians of you know [53:58] Frederick Douglas and sort of that that [54:00] civil war period and we're reflecting on [54:02] the declaration at 250 [54:04] and he was talking about how much the [54:06] declaration was supposed to be a beacon. [54:09] This was supposed to be something that [54:10] would attract people to us. And so right [54:13] now there is an irreconcilable tension [54:15] in the heart of the Republican party [54:16] that I think is the vestage of the GOP [54:20] that you and I have talked about [54:22] combined with MAGA means that you have [54:24] this devotion to the founders but a [54:27] total contradiction to their ethos in [54:30] the same movement [54:32] >> and that will not last. One or the other [54:34] is going to have to win out. [54:35] >> Totally. Um Madison's quote reminds me [54:38] of one from George Washington. I cited [54:40] this in numerous places, but I gave a [54:41] message earlier uh late 2025 when I was [54:44] out in California about Christian [54:46] nationalism called Malice Toward None. [54:48] And and I quoted Washington. This one's [54:50] I've used this so many times because I [54:52] think it's so [54:54] relevant to our current circumstances. [54:56] He said this, "The bosom of America is [54:58] open to receive not only the opulent and [55:00] respectable stranger, but the oppressed [55:02] and persecuted of all nations and [55:04] religions whom we shall welcome to a [55:07] participation of all of our rights and [55:09] privileges." [55:11] So the idea that America was always [55:13] supposed to be a Christianonly nation [55:15] and not welcome people who are Jews or [55:18] Muslims or you know name what your [55:20] religious background [55:21] >> it's demonstrably untrue whether you [55:24] quote Madison or Washington that [55:25] founding generation had this vision of [55:27] America Jefferson right [55:29] >> so to to turn your back on that and say [55:32] no no no no we're a Christian nation [55:35] >> and you maybe will tolerate your [55:37] presence here but you don't get all the [55:38] same rights and privileges if you're not [55:39] a Christian that is antithetical to [55:42] everything the founders believed in and [55:44] what the founding documents articulate. [55:46] So [55:47] >> totally. [55:47] >> Yeah. I find the inconsistency on the [55:49] right crazy that they're the same ones [55:51] that want to hold up pictures of Jesus [55:52] handing the Constitution to the founders [55:55] and and celebrate America as this God- [55:58] ordained nation and at its founding and [56:00] then turn their back on the very [56:01] founding principles of the nation they [56:03] say God founded. It doesn't make any [56:05] sense. [56:06] >> Do you know what hurt me recently? uh [56:08] sky, it just really hit me and and I [56:11] think part of the there are several [56:13] things that are, you know, we're living [56:14] in a very difficult time and so a lot of [56:16] things will kind of unsurprisingly like [56:18] hit you in an emotional way in when [56:21] you're going through like a nation's [56:22] going through a difficult time and I'm [56:23] sure a lot of the listeners feel the [56:25] same way. They'll be kind of shocked by [56:27] their emotion in a moment because this [56:29] is a hard time and I was watching the [56:32] Apple TV show Tyron. [56:34] >> Do you watch that? [56:35] >> I haven't seen it. No. [56:36] >> So good. So good. If you like spy [56:38] thrillers, so good. [56:40] >> Watching the first season of the night [56:42] manager. [56:43] >> Manager. [56:44] >> Yeah. [56:45] Come on, Sky. [56:46] >> I haven't seen the second season yet. I [56:48] know. I'm late to the game. [56:49] >> So good. [56:49] >> All right, Tyron. I'll play the list, [56:51] too. [56:52] >> No. No. I don't I'm not I'm not somebody [56:53] who scolds you for being late. I'm like, [56:55] come here, big guy. You're part of the [56:56] club now. [56:57] >> Have you seen season two yet? [56:59] >> Yeah, it's seen it all. [57:01] >> All right. Should I watch season two? Is [57:02] it worth it? [57:04] >> 100%. All right. Yeah. So anyway, this [57:08] woman is she's Iranian and she's wanting [57:10] to flee Iran and she's horribly [57:14] oppressed as as so many Iranian women [57:16] are. And they ask her, "Where do you [57:18] want to go?" And I was hoping it would [57:22] say America. [57:24] >> Like that's what I was hoping. And [57:26] instead she doesn't know. [57:29] And for some reason that hit me. Like [57:32] that hit me because it is so [57:34] contradictory to everything I grew up [57:37] with as a kid of the Cold War. Like you [57:39] would you would want to hear somebody [57:40] who's in Poland or Romania or the Soviet [57:44] Union or in China. You want to leave. [57:46] You want to be free. You want to have [57:47] feel safety and security. Where would [57:49] you want to go? And for generation after [57:52] generation, there was an answer. [57:53] >> Yep. [57:54] >> America. As imperfect as we are. [57:56] >> I I'll tell you one story and then we [57:57] got to go. My father is an immigrant [57:59] from India. He grew up in Mumbai. He [58:01] went to a high school, St. Xavier's Boys [58:04] Academy, which was run by Jesuits from [58:06] New York City. Across the street from [58:08] his high school, I visited there. I've [58:09] been to this location. Across the street [58:11] from his high school in the 1950s [58:13] and60s, the United States State [58:16] Department set up what was called an [58:18] American Cultural Museum. And it was [58:21] part of their PR efforts against [58:22] communism in various parts of the world. [58:24] And my dad would go across the street [58:26] from his high school and marinate in [58:29] Christian pop or not Christian, American [58:32] popular culture. He'd listen to Elvis [58:33] Presley records and watch American [58:35] movies and and that's where he fell in [58:37] love with America and the ideals of [58:38] America and the the freedoms of America [58:40] and the equality of America. And that's [58:42] when he decided his goal in life was to [58:44] leave India and become an American. And [58:46] he did that. He came here. That's why he [58:49] now fast forward. I was back in Mumbai [58:51] number of years ago visiting family and [58:54] a younger relative who was a high school [58:57] student was graduating from high school [58:59] and he was going to go abroad for [59:01] college. I'm trying to leave some of the [59:02] details uh ambiguous here. And I asked [59:05] him I said are you thinking about coming [59:07] to the United States for college? And he [59:10] looked at me and he said no way. And I [59:13] said why? and he said, "Well, it's [59:15] pretty obvious you don't like brown [59:16] people there very much, and I'd prefer [59:18] not to get shot." So, I he ended up in [59:21] Australia. And I was just the the the [59:25] dramatic change from my father's [59:27] experience, which was there was no [59:29] better place to be in all the world than [59:32] America to fast forward two generations [59:35] and another member of the family in [59:37] India going, I would never want to come [59:38] to America. And it just shows you how [59:42] things have changed. And I wonder what [59:44] kind of brilliance and talent and [59:46] intelligence and ingenuity and [59:49] entrepreneurship are we losing because [59:51] there's so many people who don't think [59:53] of America as the shining city on a hill [59:55] anymore the way Ronald Reagan used to [59:56] talk about it. [59:57] >> Yeah. [59:57] >> Uh and it broke my heart a little bit to [59:59] hear a relative say that. [60:02] >> It should. It should, Sky. That's a [60:04] proper reaction. It's tragic. I mean, I [60:08] it's tragic and it really cuts to the [60:11] heart of what I've loved about this [60:12] country my whole life, my whole life. [60:16] You know, one thing that I loved was [60:19] when you would have a defector from the [60:21] Soviet Union or the Eastern Block or [60:23] China or whatever, and they would join [60:25] the US Olympic team. [60:27] >> Mhm. [60:28] >> I saw them as every bit as American as [60:32] the people who were born here. [60:33] >> Weren't the the Olympics were so much [60:35] better during the Cold War? Let's be [60:36] honest. [60:37] >> Yeah, [60:37] >> there was so much more to fight for. I [60:39] mean, [60:40] >> I still love him. I still love him. But [60:42] >> yeah. [60:42] >> H All right, David, thank you uh for [60:45] coming back and for the excellent [60:46] articles and thoughtprovoking ideas. And [60:48] hopefully if you know people don't want [60:50] to see the the what was it the testimony [60:53] of [60:54] >> Ann Lee [60:55] >> Annne Lee then go watch Terron or the [60:57] night manager [60:59] something else maybe something with [61:01] >> very different very and I will warn you [61:03] the testimony of An Lee or the testament [61:06] of an Lee it it shows ecstatic worship [61:10] in a very sympathetic way and that's [61:13] something that is very interesting to me [61:15] why I've rarely seen that. What's the [61:17] warning about? [61:18] >> Because it's ecstatic worship. Like a [61:20] lot of people will look at that and [61:21] they'll be like, [61:23] >> "That's not like what I do at church. [61:26] That's weird." And but it's very [61:29] historically it's based in shaker [61:31] dances, shaker movements, stylized a bit [61:33] more, but very historically based. But [61:34] also, [61:36] >> it it does show in this really powerful [61:39] way the ecstasy of forgiveness, of [61:42] confession and forgiveness. [61:44] >> And it's beautiful. It's beautiful. So, [61:46] but it's also not what happens in your [61:48] normal day in the pews. So, that's why [61:50] I'm saying that it's it's not mocking [61:53] Shakerism. It's showing shakerism. [61:56] >> All right. Well, [61:56] >> and and so it's very interesting. [61:58] >> All right. Well, they're called Shakers [61:59] for a reason. [62:01] >> It's true. [62:02] >> All right, David. Uh hopefully we'll [62:03] catch up next month. [62:06] >> French Friday is a production of Holy [62:08] Post Media featuring David French and [62:11] me, Sky Jatani. Music and theme song by [62:14] Phil Viser. This show is made possible [62:16] by Holy Post patrons. To find out how [62:19] you can become a Holy Post patron and to [62:21] find more common good Christian content, [62:23] go to holypost.com.  [[3. Resources/Readwise/Full Document Contents/Articles/French Friday Can We Redefine Christian Zionism|Full Document Contents]] ## Document Notes --- tags: #anti-semitism #christian-zionism #israel-palestine #religious-liberty #american-history author: Skye Jethani source: Holy Post Media reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTVCejHwgo0 date created: 2025-01-27 10:30 --- # 🏷️ Title: French Friday: Can We Redefine Christian Zionism? ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Examine rise of anti-semitism in MAGA movement — Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens examples #anti-semitism - [H2] Differentiate between anti-semitism and legitimate Israel criticism — avoiding extremes on both sides #israel-palestine - [H3] Consider Christian response to both anti-semitism and Palestinian rights — ethical framework needed #christian-zionism ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [[#📝 Summary]] - [[#📖 Main Content]] - [[#🗒️ Notes]] - [[#📚 References]] - [[#🗣️ Paraphrase]] - [[#📰 Newsletter]] - [[#✅ Action Items]] - [[#🧪 Hypotheses]] - [[#📊 Methodology]] - [[#❓ Questions]] - [[#🔮 Future Research]] - [[#💡 Implications]] - [[#🧠 Learning Styles Assessment]] - [[#📊 Accessibility Assessment]] - [[#🌍 DEIB Assessment]] - [[#✅ Logical Validity]] - [[#🛡️ DARVO Analysis]] - [[#🎯 Conclusion]] ### 🔗 References - [David French New York Times Article on Supreme Court](URL) - [Advisory Opinions Podcast](URL) ## 📝 Summary - David French discusses rising anti-semitism in MAGA movement and attempts to redefine Christian Zionism - Key concern: influential right-wing voices like Tucker Carlson and Candace Owens spreading anti-semitic conspiracy theories - French proposes Christian Zionism based on ethics rather than prophecy - supporting Israel's right to exist while advocating equally for Palestinian rights - Discussion includes historical context through film "Testament of Ann Lee" about religious persecution in early America - Bottom line: Need for Christian response to anti-semitism that doesn't dehumanize Palestinians ## 📖 Main Content French argues that anti-semitism is surging on the political right due to conspiracy thinking and a "no enemies to the right" mentality that radicalizes discourse. He distinguishes between legitimate criticism of Israeli policies and anti-semitic conspiracy theories. French advocates for redefining Christian Zionism as an ethical position supporting both Israeli security and Palestinian dignity, rejecting prophecy-driven interpretations that treat Palestinians as lesser. The conversation explores how Christian ethics should inform foreign policy discussions around Israel-Palestine while avoiding both anti-semitic and anti-Palestinian extremes. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/iTVCejHwgo0?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and weather delays - Key idea: Winter storms in Nashville caused infrastructure collapse and power outages - Evidence: "Trees were collapsed all over the road... total pitch blackness, no lights, no street" #### ⏱️ [08:30](https://youtu.be/iTVCejHwgo0?t=510) — [H2] Rise of anti-semitism on MAGA right - Key idea: Anti-semitism growing among influential right-wing voices with audience rewards - Evidence: "Tucker Carlson Candace Owens... you're seeing explosive growth of anti-semitism" #### ⏱️ [12:15](https://youtu.be/iTVCejHwgo0?t=735) — [H1] Conspiracy thinking leads to anti-semitism - Key idea: Conspiratorial mindset naturally progresses toward anti-semitic explanations - Evidence: "As soon as a community gets conspiratorial... start the clock. Anti-semitism is on its way" #### ⏱️ [15:45](https://youtu.be/iTVCejHwgo0?t=945) — [H2] Candace Owens Jewish supremacist claims - Key idea: Modern conspiracy theories recycling ancient anti-semitic narratives - Evidence: "Jewish supremacists had everything to do with the Civil War... Jewish people were in control of the slave trade" #### ⏱️ [18:20](https://youtu.be/iTVCejHwgo0?t=1100) — [H1] Theological roots of Christian anti-semitism - Key idea: Replacement theology cuts Jews off from God's grace and blames them for crucifixion - Evidence: "When Jesus came, the special relationship between God and the Jewish people was severed... they killed Jesus" #### ⏱️ [22:10](https://youtu.be/iTVCejHwgo0?t=1330) — [H2] No enemies to the right dynamic - Key idea: Right-wing culture only accepts criticism from further right, creating radicalization - Evidence: "Criticisms from the right are valid... criticisms from the left are wokeness" #### ⏱️ [28:45](https://youtu.be/iTVCejHwgo0?t=1725) — [H1] Differentiating anti-semitism from Israel criticism - Key idea: Must distinguish legitimate policy criticism from anti-semitic conspiracy theories - Evidence: "There are absolute loons on each end of the spectrum... radical and extreme and confident" #### ⏱️ [35:20](https://youtu.be/iTVCejHwgo0?t=2120) — [H2] French's definition of Christian Zionism - Key idea: Support for Jewish state based on Christian ethics, not prophecy - Evidence: "Defense of the existence of Israel as a Jewish state... through the use of Christian ethics and morality" #### ⏱️ [42:30](https://youtu.be/iTVCejHwgo0?t=2550) — [H1] Equal dignity for Palestinians and Israelis - Key idea: Christian ethics demands equal treatment and rights for all people - Evidence: "Any form of advocacy for Israel that treats Palestinians as any less deserving... isn't just unchristian, it's anti-Christian" #### ⏱️ [48:15](https://youtu.be/iTVCejHwgo0?t=2895) — [H2] Jethani's concerns about Christian Zionist label - Key idea: Term carries theological baggage that hinders productive dialogue - Evidence: "Christian Zionism... is largely equated with a dispensationalist view... interpretation of prophecy" #### ⏱️ [55:40](https://youtu.be/iTVCejHwgo0?t=3340) — [H1] Need for Christian response to Christian anti-semitism - Key idea: Christian arguments needed to counter Christian-framed anti-semitism - Evidence: "If one side is making a Christian argument... the side making the Christian argument tends to win" #### ⏱️ [62:20](https://youtu.be/iTVCejHwgo0?t=3740) — [H2] Testament of Ann Lee film discussion - Key idea: Story of Shaker founder illustrates American promise and failure on religious liberty - Evidence: "Coming to America for freedom... first things they see? They see a slave auction" #### ⏱️ [68:50](https://youtu.be/iTVCejHwgo0?t=4130) — [H1] Already and not yet of American ideals - Key idea: America has aspirational goals but consistently falls short in practice - Evidence: "Every man shall live under his own vine and fig tree... how many more caskets will there be under the tree of liberty" ## 📚 References - [David French New York Times pieces on Israel-Palestine](URL) - [Advisory Opinions podcast with Sarah Isgur](URL) - [Testament of Ann Lee film](URL) - [Tucker Carlson interview with Mike Huckabee](URL) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Anti-semitism is rising on the political right through conspiracy thinking and audience incentives that reward extreme positions rather than punish them - Christian Zionism should be redefined as supporting Israel's existence based on Christian ethics while equally advocating for Palestinian dignity and rights - The "no enemies to the right" mentality creates a one-way ratchet toward radicalization since only criticism from the left gets dismissed as "wokeness" ## 📰 Newsletter David French warns about rising anti-semitism in conservative circles while proposing a Christian response rooted in ethics rather than prophecy. His call for equal dignity for both Israelis and Palestinians offers a framework for navigating complex foreign policy discussions without falling into conspiratorial thinking or dehumanizing rhetoric. Key insight: The same Christian ethics that oppose anti-semitism must also advocate for Palestinian rights - consistency matters more than tribal loyalty. Practical application: When discussing Israel-Palestine, avoid both extremes that deny either people's right to safety and self-determination. Resources: [Anti-Defamation League](https://adl.org/), [Christians for Fair Witness](URL), [Israeli-Palestinian Dialogue](URL) ## ✅ Action Items #### Community - Religious leaders: Develop teaching materials distinguishing legitimate criticism from conspiracy theories - Educators: Create curriculum on history of anti-semitism and its connection to conspiracy thinking - Media: Establish editorial standards for platforming voices spreading ethnic conspiracies - Interfaith: Facilitate dialogue between Jewish, Christian, and Muslim Palestinian communities #### OSPO - Policy development: Guidelines for identifying and addressing hate speech in open source communities - Community standards: Clear consequences for anti-semitic or anti-Palestinian rhetoric - Educational initiatives: Training on recognizing religious and ethnic bias in technical discussions #### WordPress - Community: Moderation policies for WordCamps and meetups regarding discriminatory speech - Documentation: Guidelines for inclusive language in official communications - Leadership: Training for community team on handling religious and ethnic conflicts ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Conspiracy-prone communities will develop anti-semitic tendencies within predictable timeframes - Christian arguments against anti-semitism will be more effective with Christian audiences than secular approaches - Redefining contested terms like "Christian Zionism" can shift discourse in productive directions - Equal rights frameworks reduce zero-sum thinking in ethnic conflicts ### 📊 Methodology - Historical analysis: Track correlation between conspiracy adoption and anti-semitic rhetoric emergence - Survey research: Test effectiveness of religious vs secular anti-bias messaging - Content analysis: Measure audience response to redefined theological terminology ### ❓ Questions - Can theological terms be successfully reclaimed from extremist interpretations? - What role does audience incentive structure play in radicalizing public discourse? - How do religious and ethnic minorities balance advocacy for their own rights with advocacy for others? ### 🔮 Future Research - Longitudinal studies on conspiracy theory progression patterns - Comparative analysis of anti-semitism across different political movements - Effectiveness research on interfaith dialogue approaches to Middle East conflicts ### 💡 Implications - Policy: Foreign aid decisions should consider human rights records for all recipients equally - Education: Religious literacy programs needed to counter theological anti-semitism - Media: Platform responsibilities for amplifying voices that spread ethnic conspiracies - Security: Anti-semitic conspiracy theories pose domestic terrorism risks requiring monitoring ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th grade #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: None identified in audio format - Improve: Timeline graphics of anti-semitic conspiracy theory spread, maps of Middle East conflicts #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full conversational podcast format with multiple perspectives - Improve: Include clips from referenced Tucker Carlson interviews for context #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Extensive definitions, theological terminology explanations, historical analogies - Improve: Glossary of terms like "replacement theology," "dispensationalism" #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: None identified - Improve: Interactive timeline of Christian-Jewish relations, case study exercises #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear cause-effect relationships between conspiracy thinking and anti-semitism - Improve: Decision trees for evaluating legitimate vs illegitimate criticism #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Dialogue format models respectful disagreement - Improve: Discussion questions for faith communities, interfaith dialogue guides #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Reflection prompts about personal theological positions - Improve: Self-assessment tools for recognizing bias, journaling questions #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Historical patterns and cultural ecosystem analysis - Improve: Environmental metaphors for how ideas spread through communities ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear speaker identification throughout transcript - Improve: Timestamp formatting for navigation, heading structure for topics #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard YouTube controls available - Improve: Chapter markers for easy navigation between topics #### Contrast and readability - Present: High contrast YouTube player interface - Improve: Transcript formatting with better visual hierarchy #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: YouTube supports zoom and responsive design - Improve: Dedicated transcript page with better text controls #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided - Improve: Time-synced captions, downloadable transcript file #### Forms and interactions - Present: Standard YouTube commenting interface - Improve: Moderated discussion space with better accessibility ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion includes multiple religious traditions (Protestant, Catholic, Jewish) - Improve: Include Palestinian Christian perspectives, Muslim viewpoints #### Inclusive language - Present: Careful distinction between ethnic groups and political positions - Improve: More consistent person-first language, avoid generalizations #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Long-form conversation allows processing time - Improve: Topic markers, content warnings for discussing genocide and persecution #### Representation - Present: Two white male Christian perspectives primarily featured - Improve: Include voices from Jewish, Palestinian, Muslim communities #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful tone even during disagreement - Improve: Clearer content warnings, resources for those triggered by anti-semitism discussion ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Clear logical progression from conspiracy thinking to anti-semitism - Inductive strength: Multiple examples support pattern of right-wing radicalization - Causal reasoning: "No enemies to the right" mechanism well-explained - Analogical strength: Kurdistan comparison effectively illustrates principles #### Fallacies - False dichotomy: Occasionally presents only extreme positions on Israel-Palestine - Appeal to consequences: Some arguments based on what "leads to" rather than what "is true" #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Thoughtful, measured, willing to engage complexity and nuance ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No significant denial patterns observed - Attack: No attacks on accusers identified - Reverse victim/offender: Discussion avoids victim-offender reversals - Emotional cues: Appropriate concern and sadness about anti-semitism rise ## 🎯 Conclusion French and Jethani demonstrate how to engage complex, emotionally charged topics like anti-semitism and Israel-Palestine with nuance and principle. The key insight is that consistency in applying ethical frameworks - whether Christian ethics or human rights - provides a path between extremes that either demonize Jews or dehumanize Palestinians. The conversation models how theological terms can be reclaimed from extremist interpretations while acknowledging the practical challenges of loaded language. Their discussion of the "Testament of Ann Lee" film reinforces that America's promise of religious liberty remains unfulfilled, requiring continued vigilance against persecution of any minority group. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### [H1] Conspiracy thinking naturally leads to anti-semitism > [!quote] French Friday: Can We Redefine Christian Zionism? by Skye Jethani via Holy Post Media. Published 2025. Accessed 2025-01-27. > "As soon as a community gets conspiratorial, just as soon as they get conspiratorial, it's like start the clock. Anti-semitism is on its way." French explains the psychological mechanism connecting conspiracy mindset to anti-Jewish sentiment across cultures. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/iTVCejHwgo0?t=735#H1) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_conspiracy_antisemitism ### [H2] Christian ethics demands equal treatment of all peoples > [!quote] French Friday --- ## Full Transcript [00:01] Guess what day it is? [00:04] It's French fry day. It's French fry [00:06] day. So grab your prize and say hooray. [00:09] Drench is here to play on French fry [00:12] day. It's French fry day. [00:18] >> Hey everybody, welcome back to the Sky [00:19] Pod brought to you by Holy Post Media [00:21] and Universal Exports. I am back with [00:23] David French. Hi David. [00:26] >> Sky, great to see you. It's been a [00:27] minute. We we we missed French Friday [00:30] for January. [00:31] >> We did. And I and I know you made a [00:33] heroic effort to try to make it work, [00:34] but mother nature was aligned against [00:36] us. [00:37] >> Oh. Oh my goodness. I had I had the most [00:40] adventurous two-mile drive of my life [00:43] the night the ice storms took out [00:45] everything in Nashville. It took me 40 [00:48] minutes to drive 1.9 miles to the golden [00:51] light of Waffle House to secure a hot [00:54] meal. Was it a white knuckle kind of [00:57] drive with the ice? Because some of [00:58] those I've been in those circumstances. [01:00] It's terrifying. [01:01] >> Oh, well, it was a full inch of ice. So, [01:03] trees were collapsed all over the road. [01:06] Those the roads had about three inches [01:08] of snow with an inch of ice on top. And [01:10] I have a four-wheel drive, which by the [01:12] way, like at that point, every southern [01:15] man was turning to their wives and [01:16] saying, "See, see, this is why this is [01:20] why he needed the four-wheel drive." But [01:22] I had the four-wheel drive, you know, [01:24] four and but I had to turn back four or [01:27] five times because of different roads [01:29] were blocked by fallen trees. I mean, it [01:30] was it was apocalyptic there for that [01:33] first couple of days in Nashville. Just [01:35] all the trees down everywhere, total [01:37] pitch blackness, no lights, no street. [01:40] It it was weird to be in the middle of a [01:43] major city and it just be dark, just [01:46] completely dark and super cold. So, I [01:49] felt like we were in, you know, 1787 for [01:52] a minute. [01:53] >> Well, you're you're either in 1787 or [01:54] you could be in 2027 when AI takes over [01:57] and shuts down the grid and we're all [01:59] scrging for scraps. [02:01] >> Well, fortunately, our Pentagon is [02:02] wanting Anthropic to um unleash its AI [02:06] to be able to open fire without a human [02:09] intervention, which I don't know how [02:11] that could possibly go wrong, Sky. Like, [02:13] I don't know what could possibly be. [02:15] There was a Marvel movie with this plot [02:18] if you remember um the first what was [02:20] it? Captain America. [02:22] >> Uh which one was it? [02:25] >> Oh, the Winter Soldier where they're [02:26] making those flying hovercraft things [02:28] that were going to shoot people using [02:30] Okay, we're in weird weird territory. [02:33] >> It's not what I want to talk about [02:34] today, but um it's not too far off [02:37] because there are some current events [02:38] happening that um and we could spend the [02:40] time talking about the Scotas ruling, [02:41] about tariffs. [02:43] You've written some fantastic pieces [02:45] about that. You and Sarah have done some [02:46] really great reporting and explanation [02:48] of that ruling. I found it thoroughly [02:51] fascinating how especially Justice [02:53] Gorsuch and his uh concurring opinion [02:56] outlined all of the different positions. [02:59] >> It was a festivist. He had beef with [03:01] everybody except himself and Justice [03:03] Roberts. [03:04] >> I know. He seems like the kind of person [03:06] I would love to have a couple drinks [03:07] with and get the his real opinions out [03:10] on things, although he seems to be [03:11] sharing them pretty loosely now. Um, [03:13] well, [03:15] yeah, he is uh he's an interesting guy. [03:17] And I think the thing is though, if you [03:20] had drinks with him, he would be very [03:22] happy to talk to you about his judicial [03:24] opinions and not at all willing to talk [03:27] to you about like why, who he is, what's [03:31] his background, like all of that stuff. [03:33] I I I interviewed him [03:35] >> and oh gosh, this was a couple years [03:38] ago. You found him to be a personally [03:40] private person but loquacious about his [03:43] jurist prudence. [03:44] >> Yeah. So very loquacious about his [03:46] judicial philosophy and I was just like [03:48] I was I was you know interviewing him [03:50] and really trying to establish you know [03:52] like hey you know we're we're talking [03:56] you know and having a really great [03:57] conversation about juristprudence. Now I [04:00] want to ask something about your origin [04:02] story like where where where does this [04:05] come from? He shut that down really [04:08] quickly, Sky. He shut that down really [04:11] quickly. So, yeah, he does not like to [04:13] be or at least certainly not. I I don't [04:16] want to make blanket statements because [04:17] I've had one interview, but he was not [04:20] interested in in any being analyzed by [04:22] me. Let me just put it that way. [04:24] >> All right. Well, I respect that. I [04:26] respect that. Anyway, I want to point [04:28] everybody to the stuff you've done at AO [04:30] advisory opinions. You've written a [04:32] really great piece in the New York Times [04:33] explaining why this recent ruling by the [04:35] Supreme Court might be the most [04:37] important one of the 21st century so [04:39] far. [04:40] >> Lots of good stuff there, but we're not [04:42] going to talk about it cuz I want to [04:43] talk about a piece you wrote a couple [04:44] weeks ago about the rise of [04:48] anti-semitism, particularly on the MAGA, [04:51] right, and how that links to Christian [04:53] Zionism. I I I appreciated your article. [04:56] I agreed with a lot of it. There's a [04:58] couple bones I want to pick with you, [04:59] though. [05:00] >> Sure. about this, but I think it's an [05:02] important topic because it comes up in [05:04] Christian communities quite a bit as it [05:05] relates to America's foreign policy with [05:07] Israel. But let's begin with where you [05:10] begin, which is an examination of what [05:12] exactly is going on on the MAGA right [05:16] >> as it relates to anti-semitism and how [05:18] what do you what's your explanation for [05:21] the rise of anti-semitism on the right? [05:24] >> Yeah. So it's very complicated but the [05:26] short answer is that what is going on is [05:28] that some of the most popular voices on [05:31] the right uh some of the most [05:32] influential voices on the right whether [05:34] it's a Tucker Carlson Candace Owens of [05:37] course a Nick Fuentes who you know he's [05:39] said words like I love Hitler or you [05:41] know equivalent that you're seeing a [05:45] explosive growth of anti-semitism you're [05:47] seeing it in some of the biggest voices [05:49] and then you're beginning to see that [05:50] people are sort of glomming on to this [05:53] And as they glom on to it, they get [05:56] bigger and they have more of a of a [05:58] voice. In other words, once you join the [06:01] wave of anti-semitism, your voice [06:03] doesn't diminish, [06:05] it expands, it grows. Okay? So, that's [06:09] what we're seeing on the right. So, [06:10] we've got some of the biggest voices [06:12] now. There there are a lot of people who [06:13] push back on them, but here's the [06:15] interesting thing. A lot of the people [06:16] who push back on them sometimes see [06:18] their audience shrink. They lose [06:21] subscribers. They lose people. And so [06:23] you have this phenomenon where you know [06:26] for example [06:27] a Megan Kelly who has essentially you [06:30] know in many ways become kind of like a [06:32] human weather vein like she where you [06:35] know where MAGA winds are blowing you're [06:37] going to see Megan really staking out [06:39] that ground and and one thing that is [06:41] interesting to me is how reluctant she [06:44] has been to weigh in and use her voice [06:47] to like clearly condemn a Candace Owens [06:49] and some others that [06:52] and and I I think part of the reason is [06:53] that this is where some of the growth is [06:56] on the right. This is where you're [06:59] gaining audience and influence on the [07:00] right and sky is coming from a lot of [07:03] different places. The the first thing to [07:05] understand is that anti-semitism and [07:08] conspiracy thinking [07:10] >> just go together like and the reasons [07:13] are and they have for a long time. It's [07:16] like as soon as a community gets [07:18] conspiratorial, just as soon as they get [07:21] conspiratorial, it's like start the [07:23] clock. Anti-semitism is on its way. [07:27] >> To that end, I want to reference [07:29] something you quote in your piece from [07:30] Candace Owens where she said, this is a [07:33] quote, "Jewish supremacists had [07:34] everything to do with the Civil War in [07:36] America and that Jewish people were in [07:38] control of the slave trade. They've [07:40] buried a lot of it, but it's there and [07:41] you can find it." That's her quote. So [07:44] this isn't like they're it's a recent [07:46] conspiracy theory around Jews are doing [07:47] this. She's citing the Civil War was [07:49] caused and slavery itself by the Jews. [07:52] >> Yeah. I mean that's what we're dealing [07:54] with. So a lot of this is and you know [07:56] you you talk to people like Yer [07:57] Rosenberg over at at the Atlantic and he [08:00] has a sort of a much richer explanation [08:02] than this. He's he's been a student of [08:04] anti-semitism for a while, but like [08:06] there is some bottom line stuff here [08:08] about um just cons the rise of [08:12] conspiracy thinking means a rise in [08:14] anti-semitism. And one of the things you [08:16] see from both the far left and the far [08:18] right in this country is an enormous [08:20] amount of conspiracism. Just a huge [08:23] amount. So that's no surprise. The other [08:26] thing that you're seeing that's on the [08:27] right but not on the left is sort of the [08:30] rise of a sort of hypertraditionalist [08:32] fundamentalist Catholicism and [08:34] Protestantism [08:36] >> that is uh so for example on the [08:39] Catholic side that rejects Vatican 2 [08:42] like Vatican 2 that's when the church [08:44] went wrong and really wants prevatican 2 [08:46] Catholicism and then you really have [08:49] some of the folks in Protestant world [08:52] and who are very dedicated to Christian [08:54] nationalism [08:55] They don't have much patience for the [08:57] existence of a Jewish state unless the [09:00] Jewish state is ethnically Jewish and [09:03] theologically Christian, right? They [09:04] they don't necessarily and they have a [09:07] very sharp view. And both both of these [09:09] views have a have a sort of a similar [09:11] theological background and sort of a [09:13] similar theological approach. And it's [09:16] basically summed up as step one, [09:20] uh, when Jesus came, the special [09:23] relationship between God and the Jewish [09:25] people was severed. It's over. The the [09:28] purpose of the Jewish people to bring [09:29] the Messiah, to be the people who ushers [09:31] in the Messiah, is over. It's done. Now [09:34] you're just any but like anybody else. [09:36] And the chosen people, the chosen people [09:38] are Christians. And so, and then you add [09:42] on to that that they they really just [09:45] twist biblical verses about the [09:47] crucifixion to say not only did the Jews [09:51] have they been cut off from the tree of [09:53] life, they have they killed Jesus. So, [09:57] they're the people who killed Jesus, [09:58] they're cut off from God's grace. And it [10:01] doesn't take a rocket scientist to [10:03] figure out sort of how Christian [10:04] attitudes harden against Jewish people [10:07] when they've been cut off from the tree [10:09] of life. They killed Jesus. And this is [10:11] where you get a lot of that prevatican 2 [10:14] Catholic anti-semitism that was the [10:16] scourge, this scourge of Jewish people [10:19] in Europe for years and years and years. [10:22] >> So the arguments you just articulated [10:24] there are are not they're not new. They [10:29] no [10:29] >> they existed in in medieval Europe [10:32] predominantly and were we have quotes of [10:35] Martin Luther the Protestant reformer [10:37] using some of the awful things [10:38] >> right some of some of that same logic so [10:41] when you hear people paring those ideas [10:43] today they're not getting that from [10:45] scripture obviously [10:46] >> and they're not getting it from what I [10:48] would argue are renowned or credible [10:51] theologians they're getting it from [10:53] medieval stereotypes of anti-semitism [10:55] and and and and Jewishness from Europe, [10:59] but for whatever reason, civilizational [11:01] reasons, Christian ideals of what the [11:03] West should be like, they're just paring [11:05] all of those things. The the question I [11:08] have, there's multiple questions I want [11:09] to go into here, but one is [11:12] there has been a form of anti-semitism [11:14] on the left for some time in part [11:17] because the left did not like the United [11:20] States international support for the [11:22] state of Israel. [11:24] >> Right. Uh um but the at least in my [11:27] lifetime the conservative end of the [11:29] political spectrum in the United States [11:30] tended to be very pro-Israel [11:33] and would not tolerate anti-semitic [11:36] ideas. [11:37] >> Yeah. [11:38] >> At least not in not in the spotlight. [11:40] Maybe on the fringes it existed. It's [11:42] always been there, but it hasn't been. [11:43] You just mentioned how different voices [11:45] are are spewing this stuff and are being [11:48] rewarded for it on the right. It's far [11:50] from being shut down or a blemish on [11:54] someone's record. They are gaining [11:56] followers and I assume revenue from [11:59] using. What do you attribute that shift [12:03] to? Well, I think it is the relentless [12:06] momentum whether it's explicit or [12:09] implicit of no enemies to the right. So [12:12] if you you've had a culture for a long [12:15] time that it is totally acceptable to [12:19] critique a member of the Republican [12:20] party, the conservative legal movement [12:22] or whatever from the right. [12:24] >> And so a critique from the right stings. [12:28] It's the thing you have to worry about. [12:29] Just like if you were on the left side [12:30] of the spectrum, let's say you're a [12:31] university professor, if you're getting [12:33] critiqued by the TPUSA chapter on [12:36] campus, well, it could be really bad [12:38] from people off campus piling on to you. [12:40] But you're going to get a lot of support [12:41] rallying on campus. But if you critique, [12:43] say, Students for Justice for Palestine [12:45] on campus and you're a solid like left [12:48] liberal person, you're going to get a [12:50] lot of blowback from your friends, quote [12:54] unquote. And so there's been a culture [12:58] on the right for 10 plus years, probably [13:00] longer than that, which is criticisms [13:04] from the right are valid and criticisms [13:06] from the right must be taken seriously. [13:08] criticisms from the left are wokeness. [13:11] And so what that what happens is you [13:14] have a one-way ratchet that radicalizes. [13:16] And so if you accept a criticism from [13:19] the left of you, let's you know, even if [13:21] you're like a hardcore like 99% [13:26] rightwinger, if if if that 1% gets to [13:29] you, then it's like what happened to [13:31] Sky? What happened to David? I mean, [13:34] he's paying attention to the progressive [13:36] gaze, right? But then if you're getting [13:38] stuff from the right, it's like you got [13:40] to answer that. You got to deal with [13:42] that. And so it has this relentless pull [13:46] towards the radicalization, then it also [13:48] has a relentless pull towards [13:50] conspiracies. Because one of the top [13:53] ways to find yourself crosswise with the [13:56] MAGA, right, and and sort of the core [13:58] MAGA movement is if you debunk a [13:59] conspiracy theory or two. you know, the [14:02] the it's very hard to be in really good [14:04] standing with MAGA and say, "Yeah, the [14:06] 2020 election was totally was free and [14:08] fair, right? It it's it's there are a a [14:12] kind of a series of conspiracies and a [14:14] and a kind of outlook in a worldview [14:16] that's like the ticket of entry into [14:18] true MAGA." And again, once you cross [14:21] that threshold, once you start walking [14:24] down the conspiracy path, anti-semitism [14:26] is just waiting for you with open arms. [14:29] it because it's the it's the turnkey [14:31] conspiracy. It's it can always be the [14:34] Jews, right? And so that that means that [14:36] I I I think the actually difficult [14:39] thing, the actually really serious [14:43] problem that you have is that all these [14:46] people standing up to take on the new [14:48] right-wing conspiracy theories are also [14:52] being labeled as rhinos, as boomers, [14:57] whatever you want to whatever you want [14:59] to call it, that's what they're being [15:00] labeled as. [15:01] >> Yeah. Okay. So, most people know that [15:03] there have always been fringe groups on [15:05] the far far right that were [15:07] anti-Semitic. The KKK, neo-Nazis, those [15:11] kinds of the the the folks marching in [15:13] Charlotte with the torches, the tiki [15:14] torches, saying the Jews will not [15:15] replace us. Those folks have always [15:17] existed on the far right. [15:19] >> But what's changed is it's no longer [15:22] okay to call those people fringe, loons, [15:27] racist, like you can't critique them. [15:30] And so their messaging seems to be [15:32] coming in more and more and more to like [15:34] the normal right. So you do get people [15:37] like Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson [15:39] and Megan Kelly and others who are if [15:42] not platforming neo-Nazis and [15:45] anti-semmites are paring some of their [15:48] conspiracy theories. That's what's so [15:50] weird here. It's not that this is new. [15:52] It's that it's become acceptable and [15:54] even applauded. And I think your theory [15:56] is correct that the no enemies to the [15:58] right idea and you just keep getting [16:00] more and more extreme because of the [16:02] algorithms and everything else that gets [16:03] rewarded these days is really bizarre. [16:05] Okay, here's the pivot that I want us to [16:07] really explore and your piece does this [16:10] as well. What is the link between [16:14] anti-semitism and anti-sionism? [16:18] because the I've had numerous [16:19] conversations with different guests on [16:21] ever since October 7th and the the [16:23] attacks that started the war in Gaza and [16:27] I've been to Israel since the war [16:28] started and I've talked to people on all [16:30] sides and there is this weird thing that [16:32] happens when in some settings if you [16:36] express any criticism of the state of [16:38] Israel or the Netanyahu government or [16:42] the tactics that they're they're using [16:44] in Gaza or if you question the the some [16:48] of the parameters of the modern state of [16:51] Israel, you are accused of being [16:53] anti-semitic, [16:54] >> that these things are synonymous. So [16:57] what's going on there and how do we [16:59] differentiate between the two things? [17:01] >> So the first thing you have to realize [17:02] is there's absolute loons on each end of [17:05] the spectrum. Just loons when it comes [17:07] to this issue. I I I will never forget [17:10] talking to someone uh not long ago who [17:12] said [17:14] there are only a few areas where if you [17:17] write about it, you can expect to see [17:19] and get commentary from people that you [17:22] feel like what is happening where what [17:24] planet are they writing from? Because [17:26] this is so radical. This is so extreme. [17:28] And it's not just radical and extreme [17:30] sky. It's radical and extreme and [17:33] confident. I have my mind is untroubled [17:36] by the doubt of the righteousness of my [17:37] opinion and that's in this world. So [17:41] there are people that unless you will [17:43] say Israel committed genocide, they will [17:46] believe you're a genocide apologist like [17:48] that you are evil to the core, you [17:51] shouldn't be able to speak. And then [17:53] there are people who if you criticize [17:54] anything that Israel does, well then [17:57] you're you're at the very minimum you're [18:01] contributing to anti-semitism. at the [18:03] maximum you're an anti-semite yourself. [18:05] So I wrote a p I wrote a piece I have [18:07] been long a supporter of Israel. Uh and [18:11] I even I represented the interest of the [18:13] government of Israel and I was part of a [18:14] legal team that was representing the [18:16] interests of the government of Israel in [18:17] proceedings at the International [18:19] Criminal Court be after the '08 Gaza [18:22] war. So I'm very familiar with these [18:25] issues. I have looked at IDF tactics. I [18:27] understand IDF tactics. I'm a JAG [18:29] officer. I understand American tactics. [18:31] And I wrote a couple of pieces including [18:34] one where I said the cut off of aid is [18:36] full wrong is wrong and the cabining of [18:39] aid into particularly dangerous areas [18:41] where it's very difficult for people to [18:42] get to is full-on wrong. And in spite of [18:44] all that that I had done, Sky, I was [18:47] accused of blood liel. Of blood liel. [18:50] Like come on. So the first thing you [18:52] have to do if you're going to talk about [18:54] Israel and Palestine in any way that is [18:57] intelligent, re meaningful, reasonable, [18:59] you have to learn to screen out the [19:02] edges. You just have to. It's so hard [19:05] not it's so hard to because they're so [19:07] loud and they're so insistent and [19:08] they're so strident. And so, how do you [19:12] talk about this while screening out the [19:14] edges? The people who believe that [19:16] Israel has absolutely no legitimate [19:18] right to exist versus the people who [19:20] think that Israel not only has a right [19:22] to exist, but it has a right to all of [19:24] the territory. Say, and they'll have [19:26] different biblical time periods, right? [19:28] They'll they'll look at the West Bank [19:30] and they'll say they're entitled to they [19:31] don't call it the West Bank, they call [19:32] it Judea and Samaria. [19:34] >> Did you see Tucker Carlson's recent [19:35] interview with Mike Huckabe? [19:37] >> Yeah. [19:38] >> Gosh, I I hate that. Neither one neither [19:41] one covered themselves in glory in that. [19:42] >> No. And I and I really don't like Tucker [19:44] Carlson, but I I had to give it to him. [19:47] He he held Huckabe's feet to the fire [19:49] and showed the inconsistencies of his [19:51] own position, which was pretty [19:53] illuminating. [19:55] >> Well, you know, Huckabe seemed to [19:57] embrace a maximalist view of Israeli [20:00] domination of the Middle East, which [20:01] I've never even heard any Israeli [20:04] >> leader articulate. You know, [20:07] >> we can get into that in a minute, but [20:08] okay. Before we go further on this, so [20:09] you you say something in your article [20:11] which I want to wholeheartedly agree [20:12] with and and it it's it's avoiding those [20:16] two extremes that you're talking about. [20:17] You wrote this. [20:18] >> Any form of advocacy for Israel that [20:20] treats Palestinians as any less [20:23] deserving of safety and security than [20:24] Israelis isn't just uncchristian, it's [20:28] anti-Christian. It directly contradicts [20:30] the teachings of scripture which place [20:32] Jews and Gentiles in a position of [20:34] equality. [20:35] Okay. Wholeheartedly agree. Amen. [20:39] Full stop. [20:41] Later in the article, you go on to talk [20:43] about you you self-identify as a [20:45] Christian Zionist. [20:47] >> And that term, you know, is triggering [20:50] for a lot of people for different [20:52] reasons. [20:52] >> Yeah. [20:53] >> So what some people would argue that [20:55] calling yourself a Christian Zionist and [20:57] saying what you just said here that I [20:59] quoted are those are incompatible with [21:01] each other. [21:03] So how do you how do you define [21:05] Christian Zionism that yeah that makes [21:08] you comfortable identifying yourself [21:10] with that term? [21:12] >> It is the defense of the existence of [21:15] Israel as a Jew as a as Jewish state not [21:17] through the use of prophecy but through [21:19] the use of Christian ethics and [21:20] morality. Okay. So I distinguish that [21:24] from some of the extreme version of of [21:26] of Christian Zionism which is [21:29] essentially the belief that the modern [21:31] nation state of Israel is the heir to [21:33] the biblical nation of Israel and that [21:36] has been this particular iteration of [21:39] the nation state of Israel has been [21:40] prophesied. It is part of God's plan [21:43] often part of God's plan sorted towards [21:44] the unfolding of the end times. And I [21:47] think debates about what is the role of [21:50] the modern state, nation state of Israel [21:52] in biblical prophecy, I find that debate [21:56] interesting. I also find it irrelevant [21:59] to what national policy should be and [22:02] actually how the Christian church should [22:04] truly interact with Israel. [22:06] >> Okay, hold on. Let me pause you there [22:07] for a second. If I hear what you're [22:08] saying, your definition of Christian [22:10] Zionism is as a Christian rooted in [22:13] Christian ethics and Christian [22:15] teachings, you believe in the right of [22:17] the state of Israel to exist. [22:19] >> Yes. Do you acknowledge though that [22:21] that's not how most people define [22:22] Christian Zionism? [22:24] >> I acknowledge that most people don't [22:26] have a definition of Christian Zionism [22:28] that that it is one of the most [22:33] contentious terms you can possibly [22:35] imagine. Um, [22:36] >> yeah. [22:37] >> And and I would say that there are a lot [22:40] of people who have who have a very [22:43] prophecydriven version of Christian [22:45] Zionism [22:46] >> and there are a lot of people who do [22:47] not. [22:49] >> When I that's the way I would I would [22:51] say it. When I first read your piece and [22:53] that got to that part of it, I kind of [22:55] went, "I'm not sure I'm with you here, [22:57] David." Because it's a little bit, this [22:59] isn't exactly the same, but it's a [23:01] little bit like saying, "Well, I'm a [23:03] Christian and I'm I'm a patriotic [23:06] American, so that makes me a Christian [23:09] nationalist." I'm like, I've heard other [23:12] politicians have made that argument like [23:14] Lauren Boowbert made that argument and [23:16] she has obviously not ident she doesn't [23:18] understand the difference between [23:19] patriotism and nationalism. But a lot of [23:20] people are framing the phrase of [23:22] Christian nationalism. It just means I'm [23:24] a Christian who's patriotic and loves my [23:25] nation. That's not what Christian [23:27] nationalism actually means, at least in [23:28] its historic use. [23:31] Christian Zionism for the most part is [23:34] largely equated with a dispensationalist [23:36] view of the n modern state of Israel as [23:39] it fits into a certain theological [23:41] framework and interpretation of [23:44] prophecy. So [23:46] >> I mean certainly not in the Catholic [23:47] context. Uh [23:50] yeah, perhaps not. But in the way it [23:52] dominates American Protestantism, [23:56] >> that's usually I mean Mike Huckabe would [23:58] be [23:58] >> a Christian Zionist and he would root it [24:00] deeply in [24:01] >> his reading of Genesis 15 and and [24:03] prophecies and things like that. So [24:06] that's what caught me by surprise is I [24:08] also believe the state of Israel has a [24:10] right to exist. I also think I'm [24:12] approaching both Israelis and [24:14] Palestinians through an ethic set by [24:17] Jesus and human dignity and equal [24:18] rights, things like that. But I am very [24:21] hesitant to call myself a Christian [24:22] Zionist because of the way that term is [24:24] often heard and assumed to be equated [24:27] with I think that the modern state of [24:30] Israel has God's ordained blessing to do [24:34] what they want because they have a right [24:37] to this land going back to Genesis. I [24:38] don't agree with that theological [24:40] framework. So I just I understand [24:42] rooting your view in Christian ethics as [24:44] all Christians should. The difference is [24:46] most Christian Zionists I think root [24:48] root it in more than Christian ethics. [24:49] They root it in Christian theology and a [24:52] particular kind of Christian theology. [24:54] >> Yeah. Also there's another element of [24:56] this because so much Christian [24:58] anti-semitism there's been so much [25:00] Christian anti-semitism. There is a need [25:02] for a specifically Christian response to [25:05] Christian anti-semitism. And so part of [25:07] the problem I have is that I don't [25:10] consent to other people's definitions of [25:13] things. Okay? So if if if you're going [25:17] to be if you're going to talk about [25:19] conservatism, for example, I do not [25:21] consent to MAGA's definition of [25:23] conservatism. [25:24] >> Okay? If you're going to talk about [25:26] Christian Zionism, I do not consent to [25:28] Mike Cuckabe's definition of Christian [25:29] Zionism because the fact of the matters [25:32] guy and this is something that I think [25:33] evangelicals forget all the time is [25:35] evangelicalism is really one channel of [25:38] Christianity. It is and one channel [25:41] that's not even the biggest channel. [25:43] It's a ch one channel of Christianity. [25:45] And we get often so parochial and myopic [25:48] as if the arguments that we have with [25:49] each other as evangelicals [25:52] are the Christian arguments, right? that [25:55] I object to that and I object to that [25:57] more and more and more every year that a [25:59] lot of the arguments that you have in [26:01] evangelicalism are actually like [26:04] in some ways given the the numbers of [26:06] people involved and given the sort of [26:08] the strange offshoots and different sex [26:11] in evangelicalism often it's like [26:13] reminds me more of a debate in a dorm [26:16] room over obscure theological points [26:20] than it reminds me of a debate in like [26:23] an actual classroom. room say where [26:25] you're actually having to defend a [26:27] position against its most rigorous [26:28] opposition [26:30] and one of the problems that I have is [26:32] we have an evangelical world that is [26:34] often quite cloistered only listens to [26:37] each other [26:38] >> and it has powerful elements that have [26:41] bought into this sort of you know divine [26:44] that that this idea that the modern [26:46] nation state of Israel has been [26:49] established by God. It is absolutely [26:50] providential. No question about it. And [26:52] we're going to be enemies of God [26:55] if we disagree with the Netanyahu not [26:58] Netanyahu Netanyahu uh administration. I [27:01] it you know at some point it just gets [27:03] absurd, right? And so what I'm trying to [27:05] do is articulate a a version, a vision [27:09] of this that is rooted in my [27:11] Christianity that responds [27:14] to Christian heresy, I think, and [27:16] Christian bigotry in explicitly [27:19] Christian terms, [27:20] >> right? Because [27:22] >> Yeah, [27:22] >> I agree with you on that. Here's my [27:24] question. [27:26] Uh does a Christian response to [27:28] anti-semitism [27:30] have to be Zionism? [27:33] I find it very difficult. [27:37] I find the argument against the idea of [27:41] a Israel is a Jewish state. [27:44] I find that argument it's it is I [27:48] understand it in the abstract. [27:50] The problem I have is in the concrete. [27:53] So there are a lot of people who support [27:56] a Palestinian state [27:59] and they do not support Israel as a [28:00] Jewish state. Well, there are some I [28:02] mean the official position of the United [28:03] States is still a two-state solution. A [28:06] Palestinian state and a Jewish state. [28:07] >> Correct. [28:08] >> But um the way I have generally [28:12] understood I mean there's a lot of [28:13] variation within the term Zionism. [28:15] Clearly [28:17] >> Tom Freriedman has written a lot about [28:18] this over the years, your colleague at [28:20] the New York Times and he talks about [28:22] three incompatible desires that Zionists [28:25] want. And he his argument is you can [28:27] have any two of the three but it's hard [28:29] to have all three. And the three [28:31] elements are a Jewish state that [28:33] occupies all the land that is a [28:35] democracy. [28:37] He says you can have a democracy that's [28:38] all the land but it's not Jewish. You [28:40] can have a Jewish state that's a [28:42] democracy but it's not going to get all [28:43] the land. Or you can get a democracy [28:46] with all I forget how that all goes. But [28:49] some Zionists are arguing modern state [28:52] of Israel should have should have all [28:54] that land you know from the river to the [28:55] sea kind of idea. It should be a Jewish [28:57] state and a democracy. And he keeps [29:01] arguing you can't have all three of [29:02] these. But that seems to be what some [29:04] Zionism or the most strident form of [29:06] Zionism is arguing. [29:07] >> Extremists. [29:08] >> Yes. [29:09] >> Yes. Extremists want that. No question. [29:11] >> So can you have be a Zionist and say no, [29:14] the state of Israel should be a [29:15] pluralistic culture that includes people [29:17] who aren't Jewish? [29:18] >> Well, you can be a Zionist and say [29:20] because the modern state of Israel is a [29:22] pluralistic culture that includes people [29:23] who are not Jewish. It just has a very [29:25] large Jewish majority and so which is [29:29] pro going to continue for the next 100 [29:31] 500 years unless Israel conquers the [29:34] West Bank and assimilates it and does [29:36] what the maximal Zionists want to do in [29:39] which case then all of a sudden you have [29:41] something much more like an apartheid [29:42] state where you would have a you know a [29:44] Jewish minority or a 50/50 that has [29:47] engaged in a wars of conquest [29:50] >> to assimilate within the borders a whole [29:53] bunch of people that If everyone was [29:54] granted equal rights, it wouldn't be a [29:56] Jewish state anymore. Like, think about [29:57] it like this. Think about if I'm [29:59] supporter of Kurdish autonomy and [30:01] independence, which I am. So, you have a [30:05] concrete geographic region that is [30:08] disproportionately inhabited by an [30:10] enormous number, a disproportionately [30:12] high number of Kurdish citizens. They [30:15] grant civil rights to non-Kurdish [30:16] citizens, but definitely because of the [30:18] geography, it's a majority Kurdish. So I [30:20] feel like I could say because of the [30:22] historical oppression of Kurds and [30:25] because Kurds have been singled out for [30:27] being Kurds [30:29] for oppression that one of the absolute [30:32] best ways to preserve a people from [30:35] domination oppression is through the [30:37] means of a nation state. And so would [30:40] somebody say that I am therefore for [30:41] apartheid Kurdistan? No. But if [30:44] Kurdistan decided that I'm we're it's [30:46] going to invade all of Iraq and rule the [30:49] Shia and Sunni Arab population as quote [30:52] Kurdistan, [30:54] that's a problem. Similarly, if you had [30:56] a Palestinian state and it's a [30:58] Palestinian state, but then it tried to [30:59] conquer Israel [31:01] as a quote Palestinian state, you've got [31:04] a problem. [31:04] >> Yeah. Well, we're not going to solve the [31:06] Israeli Palestinian conflict obviously [31:08] in this conversation, but some would [31:09] argue depending on what point in the [31:11] last hundred years you want to look at. [31:13] It hasn't been a Jewish majority state. [31:16] There were equal, if not more, [31:17] Palestinians on that piece of land for a [31:19] lot of the last century until they were [31:22] removed or forced into exile or as [31:25] refugees. You know, it goes on and on [31:27] and on. So it's your analogy doesn't [31:29] quite work cuz I would agree if you have [31:31] a a a designated part set of land where [31:35] 80% of the people are all ethnically the [31:38] same and there's a minority group there [31:39] that's given equal rights of course that [31:41] could be Kurdistan that could be Israel [31:42] that could be whatever that's not the [31:43] situation [31:45] in this in this geographic space that we [31:48] are talking about. It is much it's not [31:50] as clearly evident that Jews are [31:53] overwhelmingly the majority on that [31:54] piece of land which is where all the [31:56] conflict comes from. And so I mean [31:58] that's the bottom line the problem is [32:00] you have the you also have overlaying [32:03] this the Holocaust. [32:05] >> Sure. But that gets that gets back to my [32:07] point. If you want to rewind history to [32:09] I don't 1945 or 1920. The question is, [32:13] is the only solution to anti-semitism [32:16] Zionism or Zionism as defined by the [32:20] most radical proponents [32:23] of [32:23] >> obviously defined by the most radical [32:25] proponents is absurd, right? They're [32:27] they're loons. They're loons. Okay. So, [32:30] but [32:32] how many years of history of vicious [32:34] violent genocidal persecution do you [32:36] need to have before you can say that, [32:39] you know, perhaps the only way this [32:42] people can live in some degree of [32:43] security and peace is if they have their [32:45] own state. And, you know, if you go back [32:47] to the partition in 1947, you know, you [32:50] had, if you look at that map, it was [32:53] divided up into majority Palestinian [32:55] areas and majority Jewish areas. So, it [32:56] was kind of a patchwork quilt, but in [32:58] both of those both of those areas, there [33:02] was a majority Palestinian uh community [33:05] and a majority Jewish community. And and [33:07] the Jewish states said yes to that. The [33:09] Palestinian and all their Arab states [33:11] said no to that. Right? [33:12] >> And once you do that and you launch [33:14] offensive warfare, [33:17] then the problem that you have is you [33:20] might lose that war. You might lose that [33:22] war. And when you lose that war, you [33:23] don't get to just go, "Oh, our bad, our [33:26] bad. We tried to exterminate you. Now we [33:29] all go to status quo antib, you know, [33:31] antibellum that, you know, so at some [33:33] point my point on this with, you know, [33:36] because people absolutely got upset [33:37] about this piece about it being a Jewish [33:38] state." And I would respond, I'd say, [33:42] you know, do you have the same feeling [33:43] about Kurdistan? Do you have the same [33:45] feeling about [33:47] >> um the Czech Republic, Slovakia? Yeah. [33:51] Yeah. I mean like [33:52] >> and this is a part of your article that [33:54] I think needs to be highlighted because [33:55] it shows your consistency. You wrote [33:58] this as an extension of this commitment. [33:59] No group of people should be subjected [34:01] to abuse or persecution much less [34:03] genocide. You go on in this formulation [34:06] a so-called Christian Zionist would also [34:08] probably be a Christians [34:10] not a phrase you hear every day or have [34:12] a Christian commitment to Palestinian [34:14] statethood. You're saying that the [34:15] persecution or genocide against [34:17] Palestinians is equally abhorentt to the [34:20] Christian mind and we ought to advocate [34:23] for their peaceful existence on an [34:24] autonomous self-governing [34:26] state. And also there's an element of [34:29] this that where there is a Christian [34:31] bigotry that requires a Christian [34:32] response and that Christian bigotry is [34:34] that extreme Zionism that would say [34:37] drive these Palestinian folks off the [34:40] land. And so, you know, it's it's [34:43] interesting. I I like the eye concept of [34:46] equality of treating like with like [34:49] things alike. You know, that's the [34:51] fundamental concept of equal protection [34:53] is similarly situated people should be [34:55] treated similarly. And so if you have a [34:59] geographically compact [35:01] area that is um the home of a deeply [35:06] persecuted minority that has not been [35:09] able to find security under the umbrella [35:11] of safety of anybody else. And in fact, [35:13] all of history is contradicting that [35:15] that's maybe even possible. And it's so [35:18] sad to see the rise of anti-semitism [35:20] here in the United States, which is [35:21] previously been like a real home for [35:23] Jewish people. [35:25] >> So, what do you do with that? And it's [35:27] very interesting to me, and this is [35:28] where anti-semitism [35:30] converges with anti-ionism. [35:32] I know lots of people who would very, [35:34] very happy to see Kurdistan independent. [35:37] I know lots of people who would be very [35:38] happy to see an a Palestinian state [35:41] created out of the West Bank and Gaza [35:42] Strip as a Kurdish state as a [35:44] Palestinian state, but then are [35:47] absolutely revolted at the idea of [35:50] Israel as a Jewish state. So then again, [35:53] one of the one of the issues with [35:54] anti-semitism is that you treat Jews [35:56] differently and worse than other people [35:58] groups. And so if you have an analysis [36:01] of people groups and sovereignty and [36:04] ethnicities and nations and you're [36:06] willing to grant sovereignty and nation [36:09] state status to persecuted people [36:11] groups, but not to Jews, [36:15] but not to Jews, then you're my eyebrows [36:19] going to raise. [36:19] >> Yeah, [36:20] >> my eyebrows. [36:21] >> Like I said earlier, I I also support [36:22] the right of the state of Israel to [36:24] exist. [36:25] Uh, I think what what [36:28] the moment we are in, and I think this [36:30] Tucker Carlson interview with Mike [36:31] Huckabe, who's the current ambassador of [36:33] the United States to Israel, highlights, [36:35] is our foreign policy and our current [36:37] government is aligned with some of the [36:40] most extremist ideas of what Zionism [36:42] means. And it's often at the at the [36:45] expense and and turning a blind eye to [36:48] the abuses of the Netanyahu government [36:50] towards Palestinians, towards people in [36:52] the West Bank, towards Gazins. That's [36:54] what makes it hard in this moment [36:56] because there isn't a strong advocacy in [36:59] the United States government right now [37:00] for the rights of Palestinians. [37:03] At the same time, whenever I bring up [37:05] this topic in various settings and sound [37:07] like I am advocating for the equal [37:09] rights of Palestinians or some critique [37:11] of the Israeli government, what [37:13] sometimes gets thrown at me is, well, [37:14] you're being anti-Semitic, which is [37:16] insane because I don't think criticism [37:19] of the state of Israel means you don't [37:21] believe in the equal dignity and human [37:23] rights of Jewish people anywhere. So [37:26] that's that we just the rhetoric has [37:28] gotten so bizarre in this current [37:30] setting that I wish we could hold these [37:32] things together and it's one of the [37:33] reasons I stay away from the language [37:35] Christian Zionism because it's such a [37:37] loaded triggering term that doesn't help [37:39] the conversation move along. [37:41] >> Well, so that's the difference between [37:42] you and I, Sky. If I there's a term [37:45] being fought over, I run to the battle [37:47] like a moth heading towards flame. And [37:49] I'm like, we got to define this thing. [37:52] And you know, I think you might have [37:55] some pretty prudent like uh this this [37:57] term is getting corrupted and maybe it's [37:59] not very useful. [38:00] >> I would argue the term is corrupted. [38:02] You're trying to redeem it, which okay, [38:04] but I I would rather fight a different [38:06] battle. [38:08] But you know the bottom line is the the [38:10] definition of Zionism is the ex is [38:13] supporting the existence of Israel as a [38:15] Jewish state. That is what Zionism is. [38:18] And what I'm saying is it is absolutely [38:21] that is an absolutely uh ab you know [38:24] that that Zionism not support for [38:26] Netanyahu not support for the various [38:28] Israeli tactics in Gaza. We have to be [38:30] able to walk and chew gum at the same [38:32] time. And when somebody jumps at me for [38:34] saying I'm a Christian Zionist because [38:36] of anything that Netanyahu did, I [38:38] said,"Ive not aware of a definition any [38:41] credible of definition of Christian [38:42] Zionism that includes supporting [38:45] Benjamin Netanyahu any more than I'm [38:47] aware of any definition of patriotism [38:50] of American patriotism that requires me [38:52] to support Donald Trump." No. Now, there [38:56] are radicals [38:58] >> I mean, you and I have seen them all the [38:59] time that will say, "We don't support [39:02] Donald Trump." So, we're not patriots [39:04] and we're not even Christian. [39:05] >> Yeah. I I I think [39:08] >> I have no problem with someone saying as [39:10] a Christian rooted in the ethics of [39:12] Jesus, I'm a Zionist. [39:15] But the moment you say I'm a Christian [39:16] Zionist, it brings all of these [39:19] theological [39:20] all this baggage about Genesis 15 and we [39:24] can't do anything that would be against [39:26] the government of Israel because then [39:27] America won't be blessed and all the [39:29] rights of the it goes on and on and on [39:30] with this bizarre theology. And that's [39:33] where I'm like I that is not a helpful [39:34] conversation. And the assumptions that [39:37] it carries are are [39:39] >> and I I I hear you saying that that's a [39:42] narrow view that captures a lot of [39:44] American evangelicalism, but it's not [39:46] the broader understanding of Christian [39:47] Zionism. [39:49] >> It is the operational one in this [39:50] government today. [39:52] Except that this government isn't [39:54] exactly that. It's very divided. So one [39:57] of the things about this government is [39:59] that it has actually coerced Israel into [40:02] some agreements that [40:04] if Biden had done it then there would be [40:07] anger at Biden. [40:08] >> Sure. I mean even the ceasefire that [40:10] Trump was able to accomplish would never [40:12] have happened under Biden probably. [40:14] >> And some of what we're seeing that we're [40:16] reading as support for Israel is [40:17] actually actually support for the United [40:19] Arab Emirates and other people who have [40:21] been lining Trump's pockets and this [40:24] Trump coalition. I don't think people [40:26] realize how much anti-semitism is in it. [40:29] Um there's an enormous amount including [40:32] within the government. And so this is [40:34] why this battle is so intense is that [40:40] when you had Tucker and you had Huckabe. [40:42] Yeah, Huckabe is the ambassador. But [40:46] does Tucker have supporters and friends [40:48] up and down the Trump administration? [40:50] You better believe it. And so I think [40:52] the actual reality is a lot more [40:54] complicated. I think the actual reality [40:56] is you have an older generation of [40:58] Republicans who are very much they're [41:01] the ones who are most influenced by what [41:03] you might call that extreme Christian [41:04] Zionism. And then you have the younger [41:06] generation of Republicans that is really [41:09] shot through with anti-semitism. [41:11] >> And all of the momentum right now is on [41:14] the side of the younger anti-semitic [41:16] faction. That's where all of this [41:18] momentum is. And so the the ability it [41:22] is I think very important because [41:24] they're they're appealing to [41:25] Christianity [41:27] to support their Zionism very [41:29] explicitly. And so the answer to them [41:32] has to be Christian because you're [41:35] talking to communities that are believe [41:38] if one side is making a Christian [41:40] argument and they're Christians and the [41:41] other side is not making a Christian [41:43] argument, the side making the Christian [41:45] argument tends to win. And so what I'm [41:48] I'm I mean two Christians obviously. And [41:51] so what I'm saying is there a Christian [41:52] argument against the prevatican 2 [41:56] Catholic anti-semites and there's a [41:58] Christian argument against the uh like [42:01] we'll call him Huckabe and and I don't [42:03] know how radical he is as practically as [42:06] a matter of his policies but he seems [42:08] pretty radical. Um, so you have to have [42:10] a Christian arguments against Huckabe [42:12] Huckabeism and you have to have a [42:15] Christian argument against prevatican [42:16] 2ism [42:18] or you're not reaching Christians. And [42:21] so I think that that's a very important [42:23] part of this very important component of [42:25] all of this. [42:25] >> I don't disagree with any of that. I do [42:27] think uh having engaged with quite a few [42:31] Palestinian Christians both here in the [42:33] United States and in Palestine, the [42:37] label of Christian Zionist [42:39] is not going to get you a hearing with [42:42] with with that community for sure. It's [42:44] a huge barrier. So I am all for [42:47] Christian arguments. Absolutely. [42:48] Everywhere we go, we should be [42:49] advocating from a Christian, explicitly [42:52] Christian point of view for equal [42:54] rights, human dignity, safety and [42:56] security, self-determination, all these [42:58] other things for all kinds of different [42:59] people. [43:01] But we need to be shrewd about the way [43:02] we do that and and sensitive to the way [43:05] history has defined terms that can open [43:07] doors or close them. So, okay. Uh before [43:10] we wrap up, I want to briefly talk about [43:12] another piece you wrote this month about [43:14] a movie that you said broke your heart. [43:17] >> And I I'll confess up front it's a movie [43:19] I have not seen. It's not a movie I had [43:21] planned to see, but after reading your [43:23] >> Me I know you say that up front, but uh [43:26] so tell us about the Testament of Anne [43:28] Lee. What is it and why did it strike [43:30] you so deeply? [43:32] >> Okay, so the movie is about Anne Lee. [43:34] Who is Well, that's a news flash. [43:36] Testament of Anne Lee Sky. It's about [43:38] Anley. [43:39] >> Not Annley. [43:40] >> Annley. [43:41] >> Not Angley. Anley. Annley is the founder [43:43] of the Shakers, the Shaker movement. Uh, [43:46] also known as Shaking Quakers, although [43:48] it's less clear that they were actually [43:49] an outgrowth of the Quakers as opposed [43:51] to religious dissident from various [43:52] different traditions. But it's the story [43:55] of her forming the very tiny, and when I [43:58] say tiny Shaker religious sect, I mean [44:01] tiny. uh when they when they formed it [44:04] in England, she encountered brutal [44:08] persecution, just brutal persecution [44:10] because remember England at this time, [44:11] this is colonial era America, uh has a [44:15] very robust state church which she [44:18] desented from. So she's brutally uh [44:20] persecuted. She's uh imprisoned in the [44:23] mo the worst of conditions. At the same [44:25] time, she has this kind of arranged [44:27] marriage to a guy who's not, as the [44:29] movie portrays it, it's he's not kind to [44:31] her. The historical record is a little [44:34] more mixed on that. It's very clear that [44:35] it was sort of an arranged marriage that [44:37] she wasn't really into. And then then [44:40] she gives birth to four children in four [44:41] years who all die. And in the midst of [44:44] this religious persecution, in the midst [44:46] of this suffering and trauma, she says [44:49] she has a revelation from God that the [44:51] thing that is really keeping the the [44:53] millinarian church from purity and [44:56] righteousness is sex. [44:58] >> And when I say sex, guy, I mean all of [45:00] it, [45:00] >> right? Total celibarital, [45:03] >> total celibacy. I mean, I I haven't [45:05] studied this, but when I hear her story [45:07] being in a marriage she didn't really [45:09] want to be in [45:10] >> losing four children sequentially, I [45:14] mean, if I were her, I would be like, [45:16] "Yeah, every sex has brought nothing but [45:18] pain and suffering into my life. [45:21] >> It can't be from God. I'm out." Like, it [45:23] makes sense. There's a logic to it. [45:25] >> Yeah. She also lived in a part of [45:27] Manchester, England that was known for [45:29] its just absolute depravity. So, she's [45:31] surrounded by sexual depravity. She has [45:33] experienced a kind of arranged marriage. [45:35] She has lost four children and she's [45:38] being brutally persecuted by the Church [45:40] of England and English authorities. And [45:42] so she says this is a revelation from [45:45] God. And about eight or nine people kind [45:49] of agree with her like this is not the [45:51] thing that you know you get out in the [45:53] streets and you start preaching this [45:54] sermon that like is packing them in, [45:56] right? [45:57] >> No, this this is not a a church growth [46:00] >> uh strategy for sure. [46:02] So she says, "Let's go to America." [46:05] Which is sort of the call and the cry of [46:07] persecuted people for centuries. Uh and [46:10] this is the early version of this. Let's [46:12] go to America. And so she and I think [46:14] eight others get on a boat and they [46:17] cross the uh Atlantic Ocean in extreme [46:19] hardship as you did. They arrive in the [46:22] United States of America. And this is [46:24] where the movie just was gut punching me [46:26] again and again. So they come to America [46:29] for freedom. And what's one of the first [46:31] things that they see? They see a slave [46:33] auction. Um the revolution. They come in [46:36] the middle of a revolution. What happens [46:38] to them? Well, revolutionary soldiers, [46:40] patriots, colonists [46:42] want to know where they stand. And these [46:44] are shakers who are pacifists. So [46:46] they're they're not just celibate, [46:47] they're also pacifists. They also were [46:50] very egalitarian. So she was a a female [46:53] preacher. She was the leader of the [46:55] sect. [46:56] um they would welcome people who are [46:58] women, who were black, who are white, [46:59] who were Native American. It was very [47:01] egalitarian. So that raised a lot of [47:04] hackles back in that day. So she's [47:06] seized by colonial authorities for not [47:09] swearing allegiance to the colonial [47:10] cause. And then later after an [47:14] underappreciated figure in American [47:15] history, New York Governor George [47:16] Clinton, who is also a leading [47:18] anti-federalist, [47:19] intervenes to say, "What are we doing? [47:21] We don't imprison people for consc, you [47:23] know, rights of conscience." She's let [47:25] out and then she's beaten by her own [47:27] neighbors and beaten by other [47:29] communities to the point where [47:31] um it it essentially kills her. When she [47:34] was re when she was reentered in 1820, [47:36] they found a skull fracture. [47:38] That's how badly she'd been beaten. But [47:41] the movie is so powerful because at the [47:43] very end of it, so you you see this [47:45] woman who's coming to America out of [47:46] hope and yet she's able to establish a [47:50] community, but she's also viciously [47:52] persecuted. Both of these things are [47:54] happening at once. And then in this [47:55] super powerful moment, one of the women [47:57] comes up to her and gives her the news [48:00] that Washington is has surrendered to [48:02] Cornwallis. [48:03] >> And she kind of falls surrendered to [48:05] Washington. [48:05] >> I mean, Cornwallis is that's a that's a [48:07] historical revision, right? [48:09] >> Corn Wallace has surrendered to [48:11] Washington [48:12] >> and she like falls on her knees in [48:14] gratitude because of the hope of liberty [48:16] to come. And then there's this beautiful [48:20] scene at the very end that just tears [48:22] boom just exploded for me is her plain [48:26] pine casket is underneath this beautiful [48:30] painting of a tree. And why would that [48:32] matter? Because remember we just [48:35] referenced Washington. And what was [48:37] Washington's favorite Bible verse? The [48:40] one that he wrote 50 times to people [48:43] including to the Hebrew congregation of [48:44] Rhode Island talking about accepting [48:46] religious liberty. It was Micah 4:4. [48:48] >> Yeah. It's in his farewell address [48:49] famously. [48:50] >> It's in Yes. Every man shall live under [48:52] his own vine and his own fig tree and no [48:54] one shall make him afraid. [48:56] >> And it just struck me to see a casket [48:59] under the tree. [49:01] And it was such a powerful vision of the [49:06] hope of the American experiment [49:09] with the gut punch that the reality is [49:11] that we don't often we we we have failed [49:14] to live up to it time and time again. [49:16] And so I saw it as like, you know, for [49:19] me it was sort of like this very, you [49:21] know, emotional moment that was like, [49:24] how many more caskets will there be [49:26] under the tree of liberty before we can [49:29] be who we are supposed to be [49:31] >> and [49:32] >> so that's why I love that's why I loved [49:33] it, [49:33] >> especially in this moment. And I mean, [49:34] you wrote this piece earlier in February [49:36] when the whole country was riveted by [49:38] what was happening in Minneapolis [49:41] and not just the the tragic deaths of [49:44] some of the protesters, but the the the [49:47] clear stoking of violence and animist [49:50] towards immigrants who many who entered [49:54] this country undocumented, illegally. I [49:56] understand there's a lot of controversy [49:58] about what our national policy should be [50:00] towards that but almost universally [50:02] these people came like Amy Amy Lee Ann [50:06] Lee uh [50:08] >> to seek something better for themselves. [50:10] There was they were drawn to this [50:11] country because of its promises and hope [50:14] >> and we can have a much better system [50:18] that welcomes people and screens people [50:21] and all that that's that's clearly [50:23] needed. But to punish people and [50:26] dehumanize them for the very promise [50:28] upon which this country was built seems [50:31] inconsistent. [50:33] Um, and this story from 200 years ago or [50:35] 250 years ago captures that very live [50:39] debate right now. So I'm I I was I was [50:42] touched by your article even though I [50:43] haven't seen the movie yet. [50:46] I mean, it's so touching, Sky, because [50:48] it really, you know, I I used in the [50:50] article the phrase already and not yet, [50:52] which [50:53] >> you know, I'm sure you've heard that in [50:55] the evangelical world, like there's the [50:56] already. Christ did come. You know, he's [50:59] already defeated death and hell, [51:01] >> but not yet. Like, there isn't the [51:04] second coming. There isn't the [51:05] establishment of Christ's kingdom. You [51:06] know, that that this is we live in that [51:09] already and not yet. And and in many [51:11] ways, we do as a country. We've already [51:14] sort of staked out a lot of ground [51:16] around concepts of liberty and pluralism [51:19] and democracy and rule of law and yet we [51:23] still still 250 years later fall short [51:26] of our own aspirational goals. [51:28] >> Yeah. [51:29] >> And I just thought it was a beautiful [51:30] movie illustrating that on both ends. [51:32] >> It does seem kind of ironic and we've [51:34] talked about this in the past that at [51:35] least again in my lifetime the political [51:38] right side of the spectrum has tended to [51:40] be the more libertarian side. the one [51:42] that says we want limited government. [51:44] Um, don't tread on me. Deregulation. [51:48] Uncle Sam shouldn't be sticking his nose [51:50] into all of our private affairs and [51:51] business and on and on and on. And yet [51:54] that would be sort of the let each [51:55] person, you know, live in peace under [51:57] their own fig tree and and not worry [52:00] about being interfered with and kind of [52:02] that frontier mentality of go west young [52:05] man and be independent. That's been more [52:07] the ethos on the political right. And [52:10] yet today the political right is marked [52:12] by things like Christian nationalism [52:14] which is an illiberal vision that says [52:16] we want to impose upon everyone else [52:18] what we think is right and not let [52:21] people live in peace based on their own [52:23] values, religions or convictions. [52:25] How did we get to that point? You know [52:28] it is a great great great question [52:30] because you know the political right [52:32] also claims to like sort of speak for [52:35] the founders right and but you if you [52:38] look at the founders [52:40] at their best when they were saying what [52:42] they wanted for this country, what they [52:43] aspired to and again I'll say it you [52:45] know they didn't live up to it as I [52:47] wrote in the piece like Washington who [52:49] was so wonderfully dedicated to that [52:50] vine and fig tree uh verse his slaves [52:53] were he did not designate to free his [52:56] slaves until his wife died [52:58] >> that's what that was his intention so [53:00] we're talking about very imperfect [53:02] people but when they were talking about [53:03] what they imagined I want to read for [53:06] you a a very short part of Madison's [53:09] uh remmonstrance memorial and [53:11] remmonstrance against religious [53:12] assessments. This was the very famous [53:15] letter that he wrote against a sort of [53:17] religious assessment for the support of [53:19] particular churches in Virginia. And he [53:22] says this because the proposed [53:24] establishment is a departure from that [53:26] generous policy which offering an asylum [53:29] to the persecuted and oppressed of every [53:33] nation and religious religion promised a [53:36] luster to our country and an assession [53:39] to the number of its citizens. [53:42] That that'll preach Sky like this is [53:47] founding vision. We're a beacon of [53:50] liberty and hope. I was talking to I had [53:52] a the occasion to speak to David Blight [53:54] who's a Yale historian and one of the [53:56] foremost historians of you know [53:58] Frederick Douglas and sort of that that [54:00] civil war period and we're reflecting on [54:02] the declaration at 250 [54:04] and he was talking about how much the [54:06] declaration was supposed to be a beacon. [54:09] This was supposed to be something that [54:10] would attract people to us. And so right [54:13] now there is an irreconcilable tension [54:15] in the heart of the Republican party [54:16] that I think is the vestage of the GOP [54:20] that you and I have talked about [54:22] combined with MAGA means that you have [54:24] this devotion to the founders but a [54:27] total contradiction to their ethos in [54:30] the same movement [54:32] >> and that will not last. One or the other [54:34] is going to have to win out. [54:35] >> Totally. Um Madison's quote reminds me [54:38] of one from George Washington. I cited [54:40] this in numerous places, but I gave a [54:41] message earlier uh late 2025 when I was [54:44] out in California about Christian [54:46] nationalism called Malice Toward None. [54:48] And and I quoted Washington. This one's [54:50] I've used this so many times because I [54:52] think it's so [54:54] relevant to our current circumstances. [54:56] He said this, "The bosom of America is [54:58] open to receive not only the opulent and [55:00] respectable stranger, but the oppressed [55:02] and persecuted of all nations and [55:04] religions whom we shall welcome to a [55:07] participation of all of our rights and [55:09] privileges." [55:11] So the idea that America was always [55:13] supposed to be a Christianonly nation [55:15] and not welcome people who are Jews or [55:18] Muslims or you know name what your [55:20] religious background [55:21] >> it's demonstrably untrue whether you [55:24] quote Madison or Washington that [55:25] founding generation had this vision of [55:27] America Jefferson right [55:29] >> so to to turn your back on that and say [55:32] no no no no we're a Christian nation [55:35] >> and you maybe will tolerate your [55:37] presence here but you don't get all the [55:38] same rights and privileges if you're not [55:39] a Christian that is antithetical to [55:42] everything the founders believed in and [55:44] what the founding documents articulate. [55:46] So [55:47] >> totally. [55:47] >> Yeah. I find the inconsistency on the [55:49] right crazy that they're the same ones [55:51] that want to hold up pictures of Jesus [55:52] handing the Constitution to the founders [55:55] and and celebrate America as this God- [55:58] ordained nation and at its founding and [56:00] then turn their back on the very [56:01] founding principles of the nation they [56:03] say God founded. It doesn't make any [56:05] sense. [56:06] >> Do you know what hurt me recently? uh [56:08] sky, it just really hit me and and I [56:11] think part of the there are several [56:13] things that are, you know, we're living [56:14] in a very difficult time and so a lot of [56:16] things will kind of unsurprisingly like [56:18] hit you in an emotional way in when [56:21] you're going through like a nation's [56:22] going through a difficult time and I'm [56:23] sure a lot of the listeners feel the [56:25] same way. They'll be kind of shocked by [56:27] their emotion in a moment because this [56:29] is a hard time and I was watching the [56:32] Apple TV show Tyron. [56:34] >> Do you watch that? [56:35] >> I haven't seen it. No. [56:36] >> So good. So good. If you like spy [56:38] thrillers, so good. [56:40] >> Watching the first season of the night [56:42] manager. [56:43] >> Manager. [56:44] >> Yeah. [56:45] Come on, Sky. [56:46] >> I haven't seen the second season yet. I [56:48] know. I'm late to the game. [56:49] >> So good. [56:49] >> All right, Tyron. I'll play the list, [56:51] too. [56:52] >> No. No. I don't I'm not I'm not somebody [56:53] who scolds you for being late. I'm like, [56:55] come here, big guy. You're part of the [56:56] club now. [56:57] >> Have you seen season two yet? [56:59] >> Yeah, it's seen it all. [57:01] >> All right. Should I watch season two? Is [57:02] it worth it? [57:04] >> 100%. All right. Yeah. So anyway, this [57:08] woman is she's Iranian and she's wanting [57:10] to flee Iran and she's horribly [57:14] oppressed as as so many Iranian women [57:16] are. And they ask her, "Where do you [57:18] want to go?" And I was hoping it would [57:22] say America. [57:24] >> Like that's what I was hoping. And [57:26] instead she doesn't know. [57:29] And for some reason that hit me. Like [57:32] that hit me because it is so [57:34] contradictory to everything I grew up [57:37] with as a kid of the Cold War. Like you [57:39] would you would want to hear somebody [57:40] who's in Poland or Romania or the Soviet [57:44] Union or in China. You want to leave. [57:46] You want to be free. You want to have [57:47] feel safety and security. Where would [57:49] you want to go? And for generation after [57:52] generation, there was an answer. [57:53] >> Yep. [57:54] >> America. As imperfect as we are. [57:56] >> I I'll tell you one story and then we [57:57] got to go. My father is an immigrant [57:59] from India. He grew up in Mumbai. He [58:01] went to a high school, St. Xavier's Boys [58:04] Academy, which was run by Jesuits from [58:06] New York City. Across the street from [58:08] his high school, I visited there. I've [58:09] been to this location. Across the street [58:11] from his high school in the 1950s [58:13] and60s, the United States State [58:16] Department set up what was called an [58:18] American Cultural Museum. And it was [58:21] part of their PR efforts against [58:22] communism in various parts of the world. [58:24] And my dad would go across the street [58:26] from his high school and marinate in [58:29] Christian pop or not Christian, American [58:32] popular culture. He'd listen to Elvis [58:33] Presley records and watch American [58:35] movies and and that's where he fell in [58:37] love with America and the ideals of [58:38] America and the the freedoms of America [58:40] and the equality of America. And that's [58:42] when he decided his goal in life was to [58:44] leave India and become an American. And [58:46] he did that. He came here. That's why he [58:49] now fast forward. I was back in Mumbai [58:51] number of years ago visiting family and [58:54] a younger relative who was a high school [58:57] student was graduating from high school [58:59] and he was going to go abroad for [59:01] college. I'm trying to leave some of the [59:02] details uh ambiguous here. And I asked [59:05] him I said are you thinking about coming [59:07] to the United States for college? And he [59:10] looked at me and he said no way. And I [59:13] said why? and he said, "Well, it's [59:15] pretty obvious you don't like brown [59:16] people there very much, and I'd prefer [59:18] not to get shot." So, I he ended up in [59:21] Australia. And I was just the the the [59:25] dramatic change from my father's [59:27] experience, which was there was no [59:29] better place to be in all the world than [59:32] America to fast forward two generations [59:35] and another member of the family in [59:37] India going, I would never want to come [59:38] to America. And it just shows you how [59:42] things have changed. And I wonder what [59:44] kind of brilliance and talent and [59:46] intelligence and ingenuity and [59:49] entrepreneurship are we losing because [59:51] there's so many people who don't think [59:53] of America as the shining city on a hill [59:55] anymore the way Ronald Reagan used to [59:56] talk about it. [59:57] >> Yeah. [59:57] >> Uh and it broke my heart a little bit to [59:59] hear a relative say that. [60:02] >> It should. It should, Sky. That's a [60:04] proper reaction. It's tragic. I mean, I [60:08] it's tragic and it really cuts to the [60:11] heart of what I've loved about this [60:12] country my whole life, my whole life. [60:16] You know, one thing that I loved was [60:19] when you would have a defector from the [60:21] Soviet Union or the Eastern Block or [60:23] China or whatever, and they would join [60:25] the US Olympic team. [60:27] >> Mhm. [60:28] >> I saw them as every bit as American as [60:32] the people who were born here. [60:33] >> Weren't the the Olympics were so much [60:35] better during the Cold War? Let's be [60:36] honest. [60:37] >> Yeah, [60:37] >> there was so much more to fight for. I [60:39] mean, [60:40] >> I still love him. I still love him. But [60:42] >> yeah. [60:42] >> H All right, David, thank you uh for [60:45] coming back and for the excellent [60:46] articles and thoughtprovoking ideas. And [60:48] hopefully if you know people don't want [60:50] to see the the what was it the testimony [60:53] of [60:54] >> Ann Lee [60:55] >> Annne Lee then go watch Terron or the [60:57] night manager [60:59] something else maybe something with [61:01] >> very different very and I will warn you [61:03] the testimony of An Lee or the testament [61:06] of an Lee it it shows ecstatic worship [61:10] in a very sympathetic way and that's [61:13] something that is very interesting to me [61:15] why I've rarely seen that. What's the [61:17] warning about? [61:18] >> Because it's ecstatic worship. Like a [61:20] lot of people will look at that and [61:21] they'll be like, [61:23] >> "That's not like what I do at church. [61:26] That's weird." And but it's very [61:29] historically it's based in shaker [61:31] dances, shaker movements, stylized a bit [61:33] more, but very historically based. But [61:34] also, [61:36] >> it it does show in this really powerful [61:39] way the ecstasy of forgiveness, of [61:42] confession and forgiveness. [61:44] >> And it's beautiful. It's beautiful. So, [61:46] but it's also not what happens in your [61:48] normal day in the pews. So, that's why [61:50] I'm saying that it's it's not mocking [61:53] Shakerism. It's showing shakerism. [61:56] >> All right. Well, [61:56] >> and and so it's very interesting. [61:58] >> All right. Well, they're called Shakers [61:59] for a reason. [62:01] >> It's true. [62:02] >> All right, David. Uh hopefully we'll [62:03] catch up next month. [62:06] >> French Friday is a production of Holy [62:08] Post Media featuring David French and [62:11] me, Sky Jatani. Music and theme song by [62:14] Phil Viser. This show is made possible [62:16] by Holy Post patrons. To find out how [62:19] you can become a Holy Post patron and to [62:21] find more common good Christian content, [62:23] go to holypost.com. ## Highlights - advisory opinions. You've written a really great piece in the New York Times explaining why this recent ruling by the Supreme Court might be the most important one of the 21st century so far. >> Lots of good stuff there, but we're not going to talk about it cuz I want to talk about a piece you wrote a couple weeks ago about the rise of anti-semitism, particularly on the MAGA, right, and how that links to Christian Zionism. I I I appreciated your article. I agreed with a lot of it. There's a couple bones I want to pick with you, though. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjg3ymchwps6mvs3tg1csddv)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - reasons, Christian ideals of what the West should be like, they're just paring all of those things. The the question I have, there's multiple questions I want to go into here, but one is there has been a form of anti-semitism on the left for some time in part because the left did not like the United States international support for the state of Israel. >> Right. Uh um but the at least in my lifetime the conservative end of the political spectrum in the United States ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjg3yme683rqdmkwdqtstedp)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - domination of the Middle East, which I've never even heard any Israeli >> leader articulate. You know, >> we can get into that in a minute, but okay. Before we go further on this, so you you say something in your article which I want to wholeheartedly agree with and and it it's it's avoiding those two extremes that you're talking about. You wrote this. >> Any form of advocacy for Israel that treats Palestinians as any less deserving of safety and security than Israelis isn't just uncchristian, it's anti-Christian. It directly contradicts ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjg3ymgjxp8xr18v6xyqpwr6)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - the teachings of scripture which place Jews and Gentiles in a position of equality. Okay. Wholeheartedly agree. Amen. Full stop. Later in the article, you go on to talk about you you self-identify as a Christian Zionist. >> And that term, you know, is triggering for a lot of people for different reasons. >> Yeah. >> So what some people would argue that calling yourself a Christian Zionist and saying what you just said here that I quoted are those are incompatible with ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjg3ymmrxc8g4pte9qks900w)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - contentious terms you can possibly imagine. Um, >> yeah. >> And and I would say that there are a lot of people who have who have a very prophecydriven version of Christian Zionism >> and there are a lot of people who do not. >> When I that's the way I would I would say it. When I first read your piece and that got to that part of it, I kind of went, "I'm not sure I'm with you here, David." Because it's a little bit, this isn't exactly the same, but it's a ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjg3ymqdzh234z8g5j6nra7z)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - deeply in >> his reading of Genesis 15 and and prophecies and things like that. So that's what caught me by surprise is I also believe the state of Israel has a right to exist. I also think I'm approaching both Israelis and Palestinians through an ethic set by Jesus and human dignity and equal rights, things like that. But I am very hesitant to call myself a Christian Zionist because of the way that term is often heard and assumed to be equated with I think that the modern state of Israel has God's ordained blessing to do ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjg3ymwegpwa27dx2e2hxar6)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - bigotry that requires a Christian response and that Christian bigotry is that extreme Zionism that would say drive these Palestinian folks off the land. And so, you know, it's it's interesting. I I like the eye concept of equality of treating like with like things alike. You know, that's the fundamental concept of equal protection is similarly situated people should be treated similarly. And so if you have a geographically compact ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjg3yn0z3r4jth24kqtczr3w)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - of people groups and sovereignty and ethnicities and nations and you're willing to grant sovereignty and nation state status to persecuted people groups, but not to Jews, but not to Jews, then you're my eyebrows going to raise. >> Yeah, >> my eyebrows. >> Like I said earlier, I I also support the right of the state of Israel to exist. Uh, I think what what the moment we are in, and I think this ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjg3ynamfqxa13kp4amjkdb8)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - for the rights of Palestinians. At the same time, whenever I bring up this topic in various settings and sound like I am advocating for the equal rights of Palestinians or some critique of the Israeli government, what sometimes gets thrown at me is, well, you're being anti-Semitic, which is insane because I don't think criticism of the state of Israel means you don't believe in the equal dignity and human rights of Jewish people anywhere. So that's that we just the rhetoric has gotten so bizarre in this current ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjg3ynggqscsz95vr5jvbc4x)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - with this bizarre theology. And that's where I'm like I that is not a helpful conversation. And the assumptions that it carries are are >> and I I I hear you saying that that's a narrow view that captures a lot of American evangelicalism, but it's not the broader understanding of Christian Zionism. >> It is the operational one in this government today. Except that this government isn't exactly that. It's very divided. So one of the things about this government is that it has actually coerced Israel into ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjg3ynprs8pdcwcrddn3efvg)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted