Going in-Depth With Web Pioneer Jeffrey Zeldman Part 2

Going in-Depth With Web Pioneer Jeffrey Zeldman: Part 2 ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/37Ddo5vyGTA/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [Going in-Depth With Web Pioneer Jeffrey Zeldman: Part 2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37Ddo5vyGTA) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: #wordpress #open-source #web-standards #automattic #ai #accessibility #remote-work > author: The WP Minute > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37Ddo5vyGTA > date created: 2024-12-19 10:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: Going In-Depth With Web Pioneer Jeffrey Zeldman: Part 2 >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Explore WordPress AI privacy controls — employer brand implications 15:42 #privacy - [H2] Research distributed company culture practices — remote work best practices 08:15 #remote-work - [H3] Investigate content scraping protections for WordPress sites — AI content policies 16:23 #ai ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [[#📝 Summary]] - [[#📖 Main Content]] - [[#🗒️ Notes]] - [[#📚 References]] - [[#🗣️ Paraphrase]] - [[#📰 Newsletter]] - [[#✅ Action Items]] - [[#🧪 Hypotheses]] - [[#📊 Methodology]] - [[#❓ Questions]] - [[#🔮 Future Research]] - [[#💡 Implications]] - [[#🧠 Learning Styles Assessment]] - [[#📊 Accessibility Assessment]] - [[#🌍 DEIB Assessment]] - [[#✅ Logical Validity]] - [[#🛡️ DARVO Analysis]] - [[#🎯 Conclusion]] ### 🔗 References - [Jeffrey Zeldman Studio](https://zeldman.com) - [Automattic Careers](https://automattic.com/work-with-us/) ## 📝 Summary - Jeffrey Zeldman discusses his transition from 30+ years of freelancing to joining Automattic - His current role focuses on employer branding and distributed company culture at Automattic - WordPress faces challenges from AI content scraping that threaten the open web ecosystem - Remote-first, asynchronous work culture with periodic in-person gatherings creates strong community - AI tools must balance productivity gains with privacy protection and creator compensation ## 📖 Main Content Jeffrey Zeldman, co-founder of A List Apart and web standards pioneer, shares his journey from independent consultant to Automattic employee. After three decades of freelancing, market changes and payment challenges led him to seek in-house opportunities. His long relationship with Matt Mullenweg, dating back to WordPress's early days, made Automattic the natural choice. At Automattic, Zeldman works on employer branding, highlighting the company's distributed work culture, open source values, and diverse communities. The company operates as remote-first and asynchronous, with occasional in-person gatherings to build relationships. Looking forward, Zeldman identifies AI as both opportunity and threat. WordPress must navigate content scraping challenges while ensuring creators are compensated and privacy is protected. The platform needs infrastructure to help websites remain discoverable and valuable in an AI-dominated search landscape. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/37Ddo5vyGTA?t=0) — [H1] Transition from freelancing to Automattic - Key idea: Market changes pushed experienced freelancers toward in-house roles - Evidence: "Even people like Ethan Marcotte, who were also brilliant freelance, were starting to take gigs in-house" #### ⏱️ [02:15](https://youtu.be/37Ddo5vyGTA?t=135) — [H2] Client payment struggles led to difficult decisions - Key idea: Payment disputes forced choosing between money and client relationships - Evidence: "I need the money right now... I'm going to get paid and I'm going to lose a client" #### ⏱️ [03:30](https://youtu.be/37Ddo5vyGTA?t=210) — [H1] WordPress powers 43-44% of websites - Key idea: WordPress has become the dominant web platform through open source - Evidence: "It powers 43% of the web or 44% of websites now. It's incredible" #### ⏱️ [04:45](https://youtu.be/37Ddo5vyGTA?t=285) — [H2] Early recognition of Matt Mullenweg's potential - Key idea: Zeldman predicted WordPress success when Mullenweg was 19-22 years old - Evidence: "This guy is the future. And what he's doing, what he's working on is the future" #### ⏱️ [07:00](https://youtu.be/37Ddo5vyGTA?t=420) — [H3] Job offer emerged from consulting proposal - Key idea: Automattic hired Zeldman after he pitched website redesign services - Evidence: "After 11 of these emails, Matt said to me, 'Well, not going to redesign automattic.com... but I'll give you a job'" #### ⏱️ [08:15](https://youtu.be/37Ddo5vyGTA?t=495) — [H2] Distributed company culture at Automattic - Key idea: Remote-first, asynchronous work supported by periodic in-person gatherings - Evidence: "We now call ourselves a distributed company because it's remote first, asynchronous first" #### ⏱️ [10:30](https://youtu.be/37Ddo5vyGTA?t=630) — [H3] Supportive, diverse workplace culture - Key idea: Automattic combines high talent with collaborative, inclusive environment - Evidence: "Almost everybody's super nice... We have a neuro-diverse community, queer community, black community" #### ⏱️ [12:45](https://youtu.be/37Ddo5vyGTA?t=765) — [H2] Employer branding role and employee support - Key idea: Zeldman writes about company culture and exceptional employee care - Evidence: "We helped an employee bring his mother from Iran to the US where she could get better treatment for cancer" #### ⏱️ [15:42](https://youtu.be/37Ddo5vyGTA?t=942) — [H1] AI privacy concerns in workplace tools - Key idea: AI productivity tools create privacy risks when accessing personal data - Evidence: "How do you give AI access to everything you do and make sure that it won't say inappropriate personal questions?" #### ⏱️ [16:23](https://youtu.be/37Ddo5vyGTA?t=983) — [H1] WordPress role in protecting content creators from AI scraping - Key idea: WordPress can implement controls over content scraping and creator compensation - Evidence: "You're not allowed to scrape this site for content, period, or you have to pay them a certain amount" #### ⏱️ [18:15](https://youtu.be/37Ddo5vyGTA?t=1095) — [H2] Risk of content ecosystem collapse - Key idea: Uncompensated scraping could eliminate incentives for content creation - Evidence: "5 years of that and there'll be no new content left and then it'll just be bots scraping what bots wrote" #### ⏱️ [19:30](https://youtu.be/37Ddo5vyGTA?t=1170) — [H3] Balancing AI discoverability with website traffic - Key idea: Websites need to be AI-discoverable while maintaining direct user engagement - Evidence: "How do I make sure that my content is getting to the agent... And how do I still let them know that they should come to my website" #### ⏱️ [21:45](https://youtu.be/37Ddo5vyGTA?t=1305) — [H2] Concerns about AI tool cost inflation - Key idea: AI dependency could create unsustainable cost burdens for professionals - Evidence: "2 years from now I won't be able to do my job without 50 AI helpers and then... it's $2,000 a month" #### ⏱️ [23:00](https://youtu.be/37Ddo5vyGTA?t=1380) — [H3] Optimism about sustainable AI infrastructure - Key idea: Competition and environmental concerns will drive more efficient AI systems - Evidence: "Chinese AI will be solar powered. And eventually America will be dragged... to using solar power" ## 📚 References - [A List Apart](https://alistapart.com/) - [Happy Cog Studios](https://happycog.com/) - [Automattic](https://automattic.com/) - [WordPress.org](https://wordpress.org/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Zeldman transitioned from 30+ years of freelancing to Automattic due to market changes and payment challenges with clients - Automattic operates as a distributed company with remote-first, asynchronous culture supported by diverse, inclusive communities and exceptional employee care - WordPress faces critical challenges from AI content scraping that threaten creator compensation and the sustainability of the open web ecosystem ## 📰 Newsletter 🌟 **Web Pioneer Jeffrey Zeldman Shares Automattic Journey & AI Challenges** In part two of this fascinating interview, Jeffrey Zeldman reveals how market changes led him from 30+ years of freelancing to his current role in employer branding at Automattic. His insights into distributed company culture and the existential challenges AI poses to WordPress are eye-opening. **Key Takeaways:** - Automattic's remote-first, asynchronous culture creates exceptional employee experiences while maintaining high performance - WordPress needs robust protections against AI content scraping to preserve creator incentives and the open web - The platform must balance AI discoverability with maintaining direct website engagement **For WordPress Professionals:** Consider how AI tools in your workflow balance productivity with privacy, and explore how your sites can maintain value in an AI-driven discovery landscape. Resources: [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [Developer Docs](https://developer.wordpress.org/), [WP-CLI](https://wp-cli.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create content about WordPress AI content controls and creator protection features - Education: Develop workshops on distributed team collaboration best practices for WordPress teams - Developer experience: Improve documentation around content scraping protections and metadata standards - Developer marketing: Highlight WordPress role in preserving open web against AI threats - Community management: Foster discussions about ethical AI use in WordPress development #### OSPO - Policy & Governance: Develop guidelines for AI tool usage that protect privacy and intellectual property - License Compliance: Review implications of AI training on open source WordPress code and content - Security Management: Assess vulnerabilities created by AI integrations in WordPress workflows - Community Engagement: Support WordPress Foundation initiatives around AI content policies - Strategic Alignment: Align AI policies with open source values and creator protection #### Community - Maintainers: Provide tools and guidance for implementing content scraping controls - Contributors: Create pathways for contributing to AI-related WordPress features - Sponsors: Support development of creator-friendly AI policies and implementation - Ecosystem: Coordinate with hosting providers and plugin developers on AI content protections #### WordPress - Core: Implement native controls for content scraping permissions and creator compensation - Core Performance: Optimize for AI agent discoverability while maintaining performance - Core AI: Develop privacy-first AI tools that respect user data and creator rights - Meta: Enhance .org infrastructure to support new content protection needs - Documentation: Create guides for balancing AI discoverability with website traffic - Accessibility: Ensure AI tools and protections work with assistive technologies - Community: Facilitate discussions about ethical AI use in WordPress ecosystem ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Distributed work culture with periodic in-person connection creates stronger team bonds than fully remote or fully in-office approaches - WordPress sites with implemented content scraping controls will maintain better creator engagement and monetization - AI tools that access comprehensive user data without privacy controls will face user abandonment and regulatory challenges - The open web ecosystem will fragment between AI-friendly and AI-protected content zones ### 📊 Methodology - Survey WordPress site owners about content scraping concerns and protection preferences - Analyze correlation between distributed work practices and employee satisfaction/retention - Track website traffic patterns for sites implementing AI content controls - Study monetization impacts of different AI content access policies ### ❓ Questions - How can WordPress implement creator compensation for AI content access without fragmenting the open web? - What distributed work practices from Automattic could benefit other WordPress companies and teams? - How will AI content dependency affect long-term incentives for quality content creation? ### 🔮 Future Research - Long-term sustainability of open web content creation in AI-dominated discovery - Effectiveness of different distributed work culture models in technical organizations - Privacy-preserving AI tool architectures that maintain productivity benefits ### 💡 Implications - Practice: WordPress professionals need strategies for AI tool adoption that preserve privacy and creativity - Policy: Open source projects require new governance frameworks for AI content access and creator protection - Security: AI integrations create new attack vectors requiring updated security practices - Education: Technical teams need training on distributed collaboration and ethical AI use - Funding: Sustainable creator compensation models needed as AI changes content discovery and monetization ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 10th-11th grade #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Video format with speaker presentation - Improve: Organizational charts of distributed teams, AI content flow diagrams #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full audio interview with natural conversation flow - Improve: Chapter markers for key topics, podcast-style summary #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Rich storytelling, personal anecdotes, industry analogies - Improve: Glossary of technical terms, definition callouts #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Real-world examples of workplace practices - Improve: Interactive exercises for implementing distributed work practices #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear progression from problem to solution, cause-effect reasoning - Improve: Decision trees for AI tool adoption, cost-benefit analyses #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Interview format encouraging discussion - Improve: Community discussion prompts, collaboration frameworks #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual reflection on career transitions and choices - Improve: Self-assessment tools for distributed work readiness #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Discussion of ecosystem sustainability and environmental impacts - Improve: Deeper exploration of sustainable AI infrastructure ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Video has spoken content, likely auto-generated captions - Improve: Professional transcript, descriptive headings, proper markup #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard YouTube player controls - Improve: Custom transcript navigation, topic jumping #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard video player interface - Improve: High-contrast transcript options, adjustable text size #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive video player - Improve: Reflowable transcript with responsive design #### Media and captions - Present: Video content with likely auto-captions - Improve: Professional captions, downloadable transcript, chapter markers #### Forms and interactions - Present: Basic video controls - Improve: Accessible comment forms, feedback mechanisms #### Standards reference - Missing: WCAG 2.2 AA compliant transcript presentation ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion of diverse communities at Automattic - Improve: More international perspectives on distributed work #### Inclusive language - Present: Respectful discussion of neurodiversity, LGBTQ+ communities - Improve: More explicit discussion of inclusion practices #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Mentions neuro-diverse community support - Improve: Specific accommodations and support structures #### Representation - Present: Positive representation of diverse workplace communities - Improve: More diverse voices in interview format #### Psychological safety - Present: Discussion of supportive workplace culture - Improve: Specific examples of conflict resolution and support systems ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: WordPress market dominance supports open web preservation arguments - Inductive strength: Personal experience at Automattic used to generalize about distributed work benefits - Causal reasoning: Clear links between AI scraping and content creator economic threats - Analogical strength: Comparison between current AI challenges and historical web evolution #### Fallacies - Survivorship bias: Automattic success may not generalize to all distributed companies, lacks discussion of failures - Appeal to authority: Heavy reliance on personal relationships and reputation rather than systematic evidence - False dichotomy: Presents AI as either threat or opportunity without exploring nuanced middle positions #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Conversational, reflective, optimistic despite challenges. Combines personal anecdotes with industry analysis. Authentic and humble about predictions while confident in values. ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No defensive den --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] Hi everyone, and welcome to the WP [00:02] Minute. I'm Eric Karkovack. [00:05] Welcome to part two of my interview with [00:07] A List Apart co-founder Jeffrey Zeldman. [00:10] In part one, Jeffrey shared his journey [00:13] from journalist and copywriter to web [00:15] pioneer. [00:16] In this episode, we dig into his role at [00:19] Automattic and his thoughts on the [00:21] future of the open web. [00:23] We'll pick up our conversation with [00:25] Jeffrey's transition to Automattic. I [00:28] wanted to bring this forward a little [00:30] bit because you've done all this stuff [00:32] for decades, right? You you said you [00:33] were fighting all these fights and [00:35] how did you end up at Automattic and and [00:37] like what's your role there now? Like [00:39] and how is that different from what you [00:41] were doing if it is different? [00:44] It's very different. [00:46] It's great. [00:47] I love the company. [00:49] Uh [00:51] so I worked for myself for 30 30 [00:55] plus years. [00:57] And the market was changing. I noticed [01:00] that even people like Ethan Marcotte, [01:03] who were also a brilliant [01:06] Yeah. [01:06] >> freelance [01:07] uh were starting to take gigs in-house. [01:11] And I thought, well, if he's doing it [01:14] I had a studio and the studio, happycog, [01:17] still exists. They're based in New York. [01:18] They do terrific work, but I'm no longer [01:20] affiliated with them. So I [01:22] I left happycog. I started Jeffrey [01:26] Zeldman studio. [01:28] Uh [01:29] but I gave up all the clients that I had [01:32] on happycog [01:34] because I left happycog and [01:37] I was struggling with clients. [01:39] Uh [01:40] had a client I loved but they were slow [01:43] to pay. [01:45] It's quite possible that I misunderstood [01:48] the language in our contract. I thought [01:50] they were always late. They may have [01:52] thought they may have Anyway, it got to [01:55] a point where I just asked asked a [01:57] lawyer to write to them. Just nothing [01:59] else and you're not being sued or [01:59] anything but just like my client Jeffrey [02:02] Zeldman informs me that he's having [02:03] trouble collecting blah blah. [02:06] And two things happened. They cut me a [02:07] check right away and they [02:10] said we're not working with you anymore. [02:11] Of course not. They were insulted. I get [02:14] it. [02:14] I knew when I did it, I'm going to get [02:16] paid and I'm going to lose a client. [02:18] But I need the money right now. So I was [02:20] thinking, all right. [02:22] If I were to work [02:23] in in house somewhere, where would I go? [02:26] And the only place I could think of was [02:28] automatic. [02:29] Because it's an open well, because of [02:32] open source WordPress for starters, [02:35] right? And [02:38] WordPress [02:39] isn't always the prettiest [02:42] tool to use. [02:43] It's not the simplest or most obvious [02:46] tool to use because it's very powerful [02:50] um and very extensible. [02:52] It's an ecosystem. It powers 43% of the [02:55] web or 44% of the of websites now. It's [02:58] incredible. [03:00] Um mostly free, right? Mostly people [03:04] downloading it, installing it on their [03:06] own server. If if you know, you as a [03:08] webmaster could do that. If you're not, [03:10] there's plenty of places that will host [03:12] WordPress that specialize in it. We have [03:14] one but there are others. [03:16] They're all, you know, [03:19] optimized for it. They work well and I [03:22] just thought [03:23] and I knew Matt. I'd met him I met him [03:25] when he was 19 at South by Southwest. [03:28] Oh, wow. I was I was giving a talk on [03:30] stage [03:32] and I had just been introduced to Matt [03:35] and I call I think he was 19. He might [03:37] have been 22. I don't know. I just kick [03:40] I he was very young. And he he and uh [03:43] and some colleagues had just started [03:45] WordPress. [03:46] And it was standards compliant from the [03:48] get-go. [03:50] And [03:53] it persuaded me to stop hand coding my [03:57] site, which I did. [03:59] Through the [04:00] early mid-2000s, I continued to [04:03] handwrite HTML every day and page [04:06] spinner or and [04:07] because I just I enjoyed that and I [04:10] enjoy like I enjoyed writing and then [04:13] like loading [04:15] on my browser and going, "Yeah, that [04:17] doesn't read right." Like I needed to [04:19] see it in the layout. [04:21] I didn't I didn't mind not having a [04:23] WYSIWYG environment. I just I was used [04:25] to it, but um [04:28] WordPress was amazing and [04:31] this kid, so I called him up on stage. I [04:34] said, "Matt Mullenweg, I know you're in [04:35] the audience. Can you please come up?" [04:37] And pop and I went, [04:39] "This guy is the future." [04:41] And what he's doing, what he's working [04:42] on is the future. And I [04:44] It's one of the few times I've been [04:47] accurate in my predictions. [04:49] >> [laughter] [04:50] >> Yeah, that one task going to become It [04:52] really worked Who Who knew it was going [04:54] to be so huge. So, I'm looking around. [04:57] I spoke to uh [05:00] I spoke to a recruiter who was helping [05:03] uh a colleague of mine, who was also uh [05:06] an elder statesman in the in the field [05:09] and you know, [05:10] you get to a point where it's harder to [05:12] find a job that's suitable for you. And [05:14] she said, "Who do you know?" I said, [05:16] "Well, I know Matt Mullenweg. I I've had [05:18] dinner with him a few times." And she [05:20] said, "Well, you should talk to Matt." I [05:21] said, [05:22] "Okay. Yeah, that makes sense." And I [05:25] talked to him. [05:26] Actually, I initially approached him [05:29] as a client for my Jeffrey Zeldman [05:31] Studio business and I said, [05:34] "You have an amazing company, but I [05:36] don't think automatic.com is telling [05:38] that story. And I'd love to help you [05:40] redesign and rewrite it." [05:42] And he said, "What do you mean?" So, I [05:44] wrote a bunch of emails saying, "Well, [05:45] I'd do this and I think I do that, and [05:48] bear in mind I haven't spoken to you [05:50] about this. I don't really know if any [05:52] of this is right. These are just some [05:54] ideas. If we work together, I'll have a [05:56] much better, more accurate, more [05:58] brand-appropriate idea. I'll have a [06:01] better idea of your business issues and [06:03] how the website can help that. And [06:05] after, I don't know, 11 of these emails, [06:07] Matt said to me, [06:09] "Well, [06:10] not going to not going to redesign [06:12] automatic.com. I love it, [06:15] but I'll give you a job." [06:18] And I went, well, if there's ever any [06:20] place where I could be okay in-house, it [06:22] would be this place. So, I did it. [06:24] And I'm really glad I did. It took me a [06:26] while to find my proper niche. You asked [06:29] what I do now. I work on employer brand, [06:31] mostly, which is [06:33] what does it feel like to work here? [06:35] What's unique about this place? [06:38] Not only about what we make and how we [06:40] make it, you know, the whole open-source [06:41] part, but also [06:44] we've been [06:46] uh we've been [06:49] working at your home, [06:51] you know, [06:52] uh we've been remote only from the very [06:54] get-go. Yeah. Um a friend of mine wrote [06:57] a book, The Year Without Pants, after [06:59] working here for a year. Um [07:03] but [07:05] we're more than that. We sort of out [07:07] We're we now call ourselves a [07:08] distributed company because [07:10] it's where it's remote first, [07:12] asynchronous first. [07:15] And it's supported by getting together [07:16] every once in a while, so you know, like [07:19] you know, who walks faster than you, who [07:21] works walks slower than you, when you [07:23] go, you know, who else liked going to [07:25] the park, who preferred going to the [07:27] gallery. You just You just learn about [07:29] the things about the people. And you do [07:31] a lot of work. We do maybe once or twice [07:33] a year we'll get together in person. [07:35] But the rest of the time I'm here. [07:38] This is my apartment It's a New York [07:39] apartment. [07:41] And it used to be big for a New York [07:42] apartment. [07:44] But uh [07:46] when it was me, a wife, and a baby. [07:49] And it was not my workplace. I had an [07:51] office. But now it's, you know, now it's [07:54] my daughter and her guy [07:57] and uh [07:59] three cats. [08:01] And so anyway, I put up this wooden [08:03] screen [08:04] just so you wouldn't see [08:07] the assorted chaos in my living room [08:10] {slash} [08:11] I also I do my This is also a music [08:14] studio now, my living room. I have [08:16] keyboard right here. You can't see it, [08:18] but I'm hitting it. Uh [08:20] I have recording software inside my Mac. [08:24] I you know, I do so much stuff from this [08:27] little seat here. And I just [08:30] I wanted to block it off a little [08:31] visually in case [08:33] uh yeah, just [08:36] to present a slightly less chaotic [08:39] a truth. Chaos is okay with me. I I've [08:41] got some chaos behind me as well. So, [08:44] but it sa- it sounds like you're where [08:45] you want to be though. [08:47] Yeah, I'm very happy there. I'm very [08:50] happy there. Um [08:52] we have One of the things we have at our [08:55] company, [08:56] we have a lot of really smart, really [08:58] talented people. [09:00] And almost everybody [09:04] I say almost because it's impossible for [09:06] it to be everybody, but almost [09:07] everybody's super nice, too. [09:09] Like I work with I worked at like I [09:11] worked at an ad agency where everybody [09:12] was really gifted. And everyone was [09:15] super intelligent. And you know, very [09:17] professional with clients, but everyone [09:19] was very competitive and [09:21] you know, again, [09:22] secretive and like, you know, [09:24] we were always in shootouts. Yeah. My [09:27] ad's going to win. No, my ad's going to [09:28] win. You know, I'm I'm doing it like a [09:31] puppet show. I'm not doing it like the [09:32] way people actually spoke. It was more [09:34] It was less transparent than that. But, [09:37] um [09:38] people are very supportive here. [09:40] We have um a neuro-diverse community [09:43] here. We have queer community here. [09:46] We have black community here and um [09:49] people of color community. So, we have [09:51] all these communities inside community [09:53] built around [09:55] the open source community, the [09:58] uh [09:58] the WordPress community, with and then [10:02] our other products which nobody not that [10:04] many people know about, but they're [10:05] awesome [10:06] uh because we don't advertise. We don't [10:09] We don't do any marketing. We just [10:11] make this stuff. Now, that could change [10:13] tomorrow, but I don't know. It's um [10:16] and even though I I have a big title, [10:19] Matt gave me the big title [10:22] because I [10:24] weigh in on design and writing and all [10:26] kinds of things and across many teams. [10:29] But, my primary job is still I'm a [10:31] writer [10:33] writing about uh [10:35] what it's like to work here and things [10:37] we do for employees. We helped an [10:40] employee [10:41] bring his mother from Iran to the US [10:44] where she could get better treatment for [10:46] a cancer that she had developed. I Oh, [10:48] wow. We helped I mean, our HR team went [10:51] to bat making sure that she could [10:53] migrate and getting all the permits and [10:55] everything and that that's you know, [10:57] that I love writing stories like that. [10:59] It gives me hope. Yeah, it sounds very [11:02] fulfilling. [11:04] Yeah, and uh yeah, I'm very happy there. [11:07] So, I plan to stay here until I stop [11:10] working and I don't plan to stop [11:11] working. I mean, eventually they'll [11:13] probably go, [11:14] "You're decrepit. [11:16] You can't walk anymore. You have to stop [11:19] working for us." But, that's what [11:20] they're going to They're going to have [11:21] to fire me at some point, I think I love [11:24] that. They're going to have to drag you [11:25] out of there and you know. [11:27] Yeah, it's like I have this crowded [11:30] small apartment in New York, but they're [11:32] going to drag me out of it in a box. [11:34] Like I'm I'm the kind of New Yorker who [11:36] wants to stay here. I know it's crazy. I [11:38] have friends living everywhere else who [11:40] have houses for less than I pay for an [11:42] apartment. Who had you know, they can [11:46] they can have guest rooms. They have all [11:48] kinds of stuff that I can't have here. [11:50] Um and it's not like I'm going to the [11:52] Metropolitan Museum every day. It's not [11:54] like I'm taking advantage, but I I'm [11:55] just the kind of person who this place [11:58] vibes right for me and I'm that's how I [12:01] feel about automatic. Not for everybody, [12:03] but for who it if it's if you're right [12:05] if it's right for you, man, you'll be [12:07] very happy. So, I don't think I knew I [12:09] was going to get to make a pitch for [12:11] that when I came on the show, but uh [12:14] Hey, we're all for it. [12:16] Good. And I I feel [12:18] we need more brilliant people working on [12:20] WordPress and our other products. And we [12:23] need more people, [12:24] you know, [12:26] helping to save the open web, which [12:29] you know, is under so many threats right [12:31] now. [12:32] Well, that was the the last thing I [12:34] wanted to ask you actually. Um [12:36] what role can WordPress and open source [12:40] play in keeping the open web alive and [12:43] thriving and and and kind of keep [12:46] pushing us forward on accessibility and [12:48] standards and privacy especially. That's [12:51] another big one that we we need to [12:53] tackle. [12:53] >> huge. Privacy is huge and when you're [12:56] working with AI, how do you guarantee [12:58] privacy? If if you're using an AI tool [13:02] to say look at every message I send all [13:04] day long, look at every [13:06] comp I make, [13:08] read every article I publish, and tell [13:10] me every day like what's the most [13:12] important after a week tell me what [13:14] what patterns do you see in my work? How [13:16] can I improve my work? Like that to me [13:19] is an okay use of AI. [13:21] Um but [13:23] how do you give AI access to everything [13:25] you do and make sure that it won't [13:28] say, "Hey, I see I hear you're in [13:30] Queeromatic. [13:32] Um when did you know you were queer?" [13:33] Like, no. It's not supposed to do any of [13:35] that, right? So, [13:37] um just as an example. [13:39] Uh [13:40] I think with AI now, [13:43] I think one thing WordPress can do is [13:45] say, "All right, you're not allowed to [13:47] scrape this site for content, period, or [13:50] you the owner of this site will let you [13:53] scrape this site for content, but you [13:56] have to pay [13:57] them a certain amount because they're [13:59] losing advertising revenue or [14:02] subscription revenue or whatever it is. [14:03] So, help to compensate the people we [14:06] serve as we all deal with this huge [14:09] change in the ecosystem. Similarly, [14:12] WordPress can uh can say, "All right, [14:16] you know, 5 years ago if you had a [14:19] coffee shop, you we could make you could [14:21] make a WordPress website, but half the [14:23] time someone's going to type type into [14:25] chat GPT or into Claude or whatever, um [14:28] where's there a coffee shop near me?" [14:31] I they should still be able to find your [14:33] coffee shop. It should still be able It [14:35] should be able to grab the information [14:36] from your website. It should provide a [14:39] link to your website like, you know, [14:41] words won't do it, go look at the [14:42] pictures. [14:44] Basically, [14:46] since we know that these huge companies [14:49] are going to be grabbing and these huge [14:52] new tools are going to be grabbing [14:54] content [14:56] without necessarily recompensing the [14:58] people who create the content, the web [15:01] will die. [15:02] 5 years of that and there'll be no new [15:04] content left and then it'll just be bots [15:06] scraping what bots wrote to serve to [15:09] bots. Like, it'll just be [15:10] So, how can we continue to serve the [15:13] human beings here, [15:15] whether they use AI or not, whether they [15:16] like AI or not, how can we help them [15:20] deal with this change that's coming from [15:22] all all of us from all sides. [15:24] Um I think that's [15:26] a really important role that WordPress [15:29] can play. I don't know what I know that [15:32] the website of the future, which is [15:35] something one of our advisors talks [15:36] about, um [15:39] I don't know that it's any different [15:40] from the website of now, but it's going [15:42] to have to have underpinning to it under [15:45] the surface that [15:47] that, you know, makes it more easy [15:50] that makes it easy not only for Google [15:53] to find, but for all these bots to find. [15:55] Like, how do I make sure that my content [15:58] is getting to the the agent [16:01] that's going to book my client, you [16:03] know, that's going to book this user's [16:04] airline tickets. And how do I still let [16:07] them know that they should come to my [16:09] website if they have a problem with the [16:10] ticket or whatever. [16:12] Um [16:13] so I I think it's that negotiating [16:16] the rift that AI is temporarily creating [16:19] and hopefully only temporarily between [16:21] creators and every [16:24] and the thing we want, which is come to [16:27] my website and do A. You know, come to [16:29] my website and do B. Come to my website, [16:31] subscribe, [16:33] check out my advertiser. Don't do any of [16:35] that. I even even if I have a free [16:37] website that's not monetized like [16:39] zeldman.com. Uh [16:42] I still want people to come to it. I [16:45] still want you to read my words the way [16:47] I laid them out if at all possible. Yes, [16:49] you can read read them in RSS. Yes, you [16:52] can read them any number of ways. Yes, [16:55] you can have, you know, you can read [16:56] them scraped onto LinkedIn or whatever, [16:59] but I also want you to come here [17:02] because I like my new design and I want [17:04] you to see it. So, [17:06] I think uh [17:08] these are challenging years. [17:10] Uh a lot of people are stressed. There's [17:12] all kinds of political turmoil going on [17:15] at the same time. There's health issues [17:16] going on, war, like it was already crazy [17:19] enough. Like if AI hadn't come out now, [17:22] if it had come out during the Clinton [17:23] administration, when everyone was like, [17:25] "History's over. We won the Cold War. [17:28] There's nothing to worry about." [17:31] You know. [17:32] Which was never really true, but We [17:34] believed it. [17:35] >> [laughter] [17:36] >> We believed it and we were, you know, I [17:38] would be like, "All right, I see an [17:39] existential threat to my job." But it [17:42] all could also be an enhancement to my [17:44] productivity that helps me stay employed [17:46] longer. I don't know, but I'll I'll [17:48] figure that out because you know. [17:52] It's the Clinton administration. I'm not [17:54] worried. I Whereas, I don't know what [17:56] the newspaper headlines are going to [17:58] read every morning and I'm, you know, [18:00] always scared to look, but I have to [18:02] look. So [18:03] So I I would say that we have our our [18:05] work cut out for us. [18:07] I'm glad that the web standards I'm glad [18:10] that the initial web took longer. [18:13] That we had 30 years to figure it out [18:15] instead of [18:16] 3 years. [18:17] I worry that we're moving too fast in [18:20] some ways. [18:21] Uh I have [18:23] concerns that [18:25] I won't be able to do, you know, 2 years [18:27] from now I won't be able to do my job [18:29] without 50 AI helpers and then the AI [18:31] companies are going to go, "Okay, it's [18:33] now it's $2,000 a month." [18:36] That's That's a real That's a real [18:37] threat. [18:39] It's a real threat. [18:40] I think So, you should always be able to [18:42] do your job by yourself and there are [18:44] certain things you should only do by [18:45] yourself, like illustration, um creative [18:48] writing. [18:49] But [18:51] at least But the other thing is [18:53] when I think about the pollution [18:56] I think, "Well, China is going to catch [18:58] up with us in AI and Chinese AI will be [19:01] solar powered." [19:02] And eventually America will be dragged [19:04] kicking and screaming and the West [19:05] generally will be dragged kicking and [19:07] screaming to using solar power instead [19:09] of poisoning water or using burning [19:12] gasoline [19:14] to answer somebody's question. Like [19:17] uh so I'm I'm optimistic. [19:21] I'm not optimistic about the immediate [19:23] future cuz I think it's the kind of [19:25] chaos [19:26] that maybe we like and also the kind of [19:28] chaos we don't like at all. It's like [19:31] >> you know, it's it's like [19:34] I don't know what. It's like uh [19:37] Lord of the Rings. It's like one [19:38] challenge after another. Like at a [19:40] certain point, can we just put the crowd [19:42] on this guy and walk away? Can we be [19:43] done? [19:45] It's been 17 hours, you know. [19:47] But that that it's a [19:50] I'm going to start a newspaper called [19:52] Interesting Times. [19:54] I'm not going to start it, but that's [19:55] it's a an idea. It's an idea, though. [19:57] Interesting times are interesting times [20:00] because that's what we're [20:01] both blessed and cursed to live through [20:03] right now and uh [20:07] Yeah. [20:09] Well, Jeffrey, I I thank you so much for [20:11] your time. I I thank you for sharing [20:14] sharing the history and and and what [20:16] you're doing today. And I I also thank [20:18] you just for all the contributions you [20:20] and the folks you worked with have made [20:21] to the web because you've made all this [20:23] possible, you know, that that's that's [20:25] something we need to take time to to say [20:27] thank you for uh more often because we [20:30] take all this for granted, all the [20:31] standards and all the cool stuff we have [20:33] now. [20:34] So, thank you for for spreading the word [20:36] about that and and helping it happen. [20:40] Okay. Well, thank you, Eric, and [20:43] congratulations on 30 years in the biz. [20:46] Thank you. Uh 20 and uh [20:50] congratulations. This is a great [20:51] podcast. It's an honor to be on it. And [20:54] uh [20:55] I'm looking forward to [20:58] going, "Oh god, did I say that?" when it [21:00] comes to [21:01] >> [laughter] [21:02] >> Hey, we can edit out any part you want. [21:04] But uh Yeah, it's okay. But uh thanks to [21:07] all of you for watching and listening. [21:09] Uh Be sure to visit us over at the [21:11] wpminute.com/subscribe. [21:13] You can get our newsletter, support the [21:15] work that we do here at the WP Minute [21:16] cuz we are [21:18] sponsored. We are user supported and [21:21] sponsor supported. So, without you, we [21:23] can't do this. So, thanks a lot and we [21:26] will see you next time.  📄 **Full text:** ![[Full Document Contents/Articles/Going in-Depth With Web Pioneer Jeffrey Zeldman Part 2.md|Going in-Depth With Web Pioneer Jeffrey Zeldman: Part 2 by YouTube]] ## Highlights - stage and I had just been introduced to Matt and I call I think he was 19. He might have been 22. I don't know. I just kick I he was very young. And he he and uh and some colleagues had just started WordPress. And it was standards compliant from the get-go. And it persuaded me to stop hand coding my site, which I did. Through the ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01ks0a3rxqjmzpz02fhgeq09bs)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - feel about automatic. Not for everybody, but for who it if it's if you're right if it's right for you, man, you'll be very happy. So, I don't think I knew I was going to get to make a pitch for that when I came on the show, but uh Hey, we're all for it. Good. And I I feel we need more brilliant people working on WordPress and our other products. And we need more people, you know, helping to save the open web, which you know, is under so many threats right ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01ks0a3ryt1tey77p8y93ztxtt)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - will die. 5 years of that and there'll be no new content left and then it'll just be bots scraping what bots wrote to serve to bots. Like, it'll just be So, how can we continue to serve the human beings here, whether they use AI or not, whether they like AI or not, how can we help them deal with this change that's coming from all all of us from all sides. Um I think that's a really important role that WordPress can play. I don't know what I know that ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01ks0a3s09g096tg113kfs2bvz)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted