He Exposed His Spiritual Father. Now He's Wondering What's Real...

He Exposed His Spiritual Father. Now He's Wondering What's Real... ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/7kn9Prcm9K0/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [He Exposed His Spiritual Father. Now He's Wondering What's Real...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kn9Prcm9K0) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: #charismatic-movement #spiritual-abuse #accountability #church-governance #discernment #restoration #prophetic-ministry #nar > author: Minor Prophets Podcast > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kn9Prcm9K0 > date created: 2024-12-19 00:00 > > # 🏷️ Title: He Exposed His Spiritual Father. Now He's Wondering What's Real... >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Develop clear accountability structures for church leadership — prevent spiritual abuse #accountability - [H2] Create discipleship-focused church culture instead of audience-building — 45:30 #discipleship - [H3] Evaluate all teachings by fruit rather than just scriptural justification — 12:15 #discernment ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [[#📝 Summary]] - [[#📖 Main Content]] - [[#🗒️ Notes]] - [[#📚 References]] - [[#🗣️ Paraphrase]] - [[#📰 Newsletter]] - [[#✅ Action Items]] - [[#🧪 Hypotheses]] - [[#📊 Methodology]] - [[#❓ Questions]] - [[#🔮 Future Research]] - [[#💡 Implications]] - [[#🧠 Learning Styles Assessment]] - [[#📊 Accessibility Assessment]] - [[#🌍 DEIB Assessment]] - [[#✅ Logical Validity]] - [[#🛡️ DARVO Analysis]] - [[#🎯 Conclusion]] ### 🔗 References - [Minor Prophets Podcast](https://youtube.com/@minorprophets) - [Steven Powell Ministries](https://stevenpowell.org) ## 📝 Summary - Stephen Powell, who exposed his mentor Todd Bentley's abuse, discusses his journey of re-evaluating charismatic beliefs and practices - Why exposing abusive leaders is necessary biblical ministry despite cultural resistance - Key theological shifts: questioning NAR mythology, end-times narratives, culture of honor, and dominionist theology - The need for fruit-based evaluation rather than just scriptural justification of teachings - How discipleship deficits create vulnerability to online spiritual manipulation ## 📖 Main Content Stephen Powell joins John Mark Comer to discuss his experience exposing spiritual abuse and the resulting theological recalibration. Powell, formerly mentored by Todd Bentley and connected to Morning Star Church, was forced to publicly expose his "spiritual father" in 2019 after discovering patterns of sexual abuse. The conversation explores how charismatic movements can create mythologies that elevate leaders beyond accountability. Powell argues that much NAR doctrine, while having scriptural elements, produces toxic fruit in practice - creating "kings and queens" ruling over congregational "serfs" rather than servant leadership. Both hosts acknowledge maintaining belief in spiritual gifts while rejecting the grand narratives and power structures that have enabled abuse. They discuss developing humility toward historic Christianity, discernment ministry, and the need for discipleship-focused rather than audience-building church models. The dialogue addresses the complexity of distinguishing authentic spiritual experiences from manipulative systems, emphasizing that evaluation by fruit (Matthew 7:16) is essential alongside scriptural grounding. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/7kn9Prcm9K0?t=0) — [H1] Introduction to Stephen Powell's story - Key idea: Powell exposed his mentor Todd Bentley for sexual abuse, leading to theological re-evaluation - Evidence: "Unfortunately job of having to expose his own spiritual father" #### ⏱️ [02:30](https://youtu.be/7kn9Prcm9K0?t=150) — [H2] Biblical foundation for exposure ministry - Key idea: Public exposure is necessary when private accountability fails - Evidence: "Whenever a private process is exhausted with confrontation and accountability there has to always remain the option of public exposure" #### ⏱️ [05:45](https://youtu.be/7kn9Prcm9K0?t=345) — [H3] Shock of discovering leadership corruption - Key idea: Leaders thought to have integrity handled abuse situations corruptly - Evidence: "To see him handle that situation in such a corrupt way, in such a sinful and unchristlike way, you know, was shocking" #### ⏱️ [08:20](https://youtu.be/7kn9Prcm9K0?t=500) — [H2] Difficulty distinguishing Bible from interpretive lens - Key idea: Deception involves being handed a lens to read scripture rather than scripture itself - Evidence: "What you were handed was not the scriptures. You were handed a lens through which to read the scriptures" #### ⏱️ [12:15](https://youtu.be/7kn9Prcm9K0?t=735) — [H1] Evaluating doctrine by fruit not just scripture - Key idea: Must examine practical outcomes of teachings, not just biblical justification - Evidence: "You have to really evaluate the fruit of that doctrine and how it plays out" #### ⏱️ [15:30](https://youtu.be/7kn9Prcm9K0?t=930) — [H3] NAR mythology vs biblical foundation - Key idea: Much end-times teaching comes from alleged prophetic encounters, not scripture - Evidence: "The billion soul harvest isn't even in the Bible. That's coming out of the mythology of guys like Bob Jones" #### ⏱️ [18:45](https://youtu.be/7kn9Prcm9K0?t=1125) — [H2] Gaining humility toward discernment ministry - Key idea: Previously dismissed cessationist critics due to bias, now more open to their evidence - Evidence: "I had a bias that was basically like, well, they're cessationists anyway and so I'm not going to pay attention" #### ⏱️ [22:10](https://youtu.be/7kn9Prcm9K0?t=1330) — [H2] Restorationist chronological snobbery - Key idea: Pentecostal restorationism can create arrogance toward 2000 years of church history - Evidence: "As if the Holy Spirit just wasn't doing anything for 2,000 years and then all of a sudden a hundred years ago just like started doing stuff again" #### ⏱️ [26:30](https://youtu.be/7kn9Prcm9K0?t=1590) — [H1] Hyperdominionists and power imbalance - Key idea: Super-apostle theology creates massive power gaps that enable abuse - Evidence: "How can the concerns of just a regular church member be really valid compared to the super apostle that's been ordained by God to change the nation?" #### ⏱️ [30:15](https://youtu.be/7kn9Prcm9K0?t=1815) — [H3] Kingdom of God vs political dominionism - Key idea: Jesus resisted politicizing the kingdom, emphasizing spiritual transformation - Evidence: "My kingdom is not of this world... over and over again Jesus resisted that" #### ⏱️ [34:20](https://youtu.be/7kn9Prcm9K0?t=2060) — [H2] Testing leadership by handling vulnerable victims - Key idea: True test of apostolic readiness is how powerless victims seeking justice are treated - Evidence: "The greatest testing is when a powerless, vulnerable victim comes to those who have all the power and seeks justice" #### ⏱️ [38:45](https://youtu.be/7kn9Prcm9K0?t=2325) — [H3] Exposure movement as authentic move of God - Key idea: Current exposures have hallmarks of divine movement calling church back to faithfulness - Evidence: "I see the exposure movement as having all the hallmarks of a move of God" #### ⏱️ [42:30](https://youtu.be/7kn9Prcm9K0?t=2550) — [H1] Demonic infiltration through impartation - Key idea: Using NAR's own logic about impartation, ordaining Todd Bentley spread spiritual contamination - Evidence: "I do not think you can underestimate the impact of all of these leaders essentially laying hands on Todd Bentley in 2008" #### ⏱️ [45:30](https://youtu.be/7kn9Prcm9K0?t=2730) — [H1] Online ministry fills discipleship vacuum - Key idea: Audience-building church model creates vulnerability to online spiritual manipulation - Evidence: "Online ministries proliferate in the absence of real discipleship happening in churches" ## 📚 References - [Steven Powell Ministries](https://stevenpowell.org) - [Minor Prophets Podcast](https://youtube.com/@minorprophets) - [Matthew 7:16 - Know them by their fruits](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207%3A16&version=ESV) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Stephen Powell exposed his mentor Todd Bentley for sexual abuse, forcing theological re-evaluation within charismatic movements - Churches must develop systems for public accountability when private confrontation fails to address leadership corruption - Many NAR teachings create toxic power structures despite scriptural justification, requiring fruit-based evaluation alongside biblical grounding ## 📰 Newsletter **Accountability in Charismatic Leadership: Lessons from Stephen Powell** Stephen Powell's journey from charismatic insider to accountability advocate offers crucial insights for WordPress and open source communities. Just as Powell discovered that "culture of honor" became a cover for abuse, our tech communities must balance respect for contributors with transparent accountability processes. Key parallels for WordPress: - **Evaluation by fruit**: Like Powell's emphasis on practical outcomes over theoretical justification, we need metrics-driven assessment of leadership effectiveness - **Distributed authority**: Moving away from "super-apostle" models toward collaborative governance structures - **Mentorship over audience-building**: Focusing on genuine skill development rather than platform building Powell's experience shows how mythologies can develop around founding figures, making critical evaluation difficult. The WordPress community can learn from his emphasis on historical humility and systematic accountability. Resources: [WordPress Governance](https://make.wordpress.org/community/handbook/), [Code of Conduct](https://make.wordpress.org/handbook/community-code-of-conduct/), [Conflict Resolution](https://make.wordpress.org/community/handbook/community-deputy/incident-response/) ## ✅ Action Items #### Community - Maintainers: Develop clear accountability processes for project leaders, avoiding "culture of honor" that prevents criticism - Contributors: Create fruit-based evaluation metrics for community leadership effectiveness - Sponsors: Implement transparency requirements for funded positions and decision-making processes #### WordPress - Community: Establish clear escalation paths for addressing leadership concerns, ensuring vulnerable voices are heard - Core Program Team: Review governance structures to prevent concentration of power without accountability - Meta: Design systems for handling conflicts involving high-profile contributors with transparency #### OSPO - Policy & Governance: Develop guidelines for handling leadership accountability that balance community respect with necessary oversight - Community Engagement: Create processes for addressing concerns about upstream project leadership - Strategic Alignment: Establish metrics for evaluating health of community governance structures ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Communities with "culture of honor" frameworks are more vulnerable to leadership abuse than those with systematic accountability - Audience-building models in tech communities create similar vulnerabilities to spiritual manipulation as in religious contexts - Fruit-based evaluation systems can identify problematic leadership patterns before major incidents occur - Historical humility toward established practices reduces susceptibility to revolutionary rhetoric that enables abuse ### 📊 Methodology - Study design: Comparative analysis of community governance structures and incident rates - Data sources: Documentation of conflicts, leadership transitions, and community health metrics - Experiments: Pilot accountability frameworks with transparent escalation processes ### ❓ Questions - How can open source communities balance respect for contributors with necessary accountability oversight? - What early warning indicators suggest when "honor culture" is becoming problematic? - How do we distinguish authentic innovation from mythology-building around project leaders? ### 🔮 Future Research - Analysis of governance failure patterns across different open source communities - Development of community health metrics that predict leadership accountability issues - Study of effective whistleblower protection in distributed volunteer organizations ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Need for structured accountability processes in volunteer-driven communities - Policy: Balance between protecting leaders from harassment and enabling legitimate criticism - Education: Training for community leaders on power dynamics and accountability - Funding: Sponsorship models should include governance health requirements ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 11th grade (Flesch-Kincaid) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Timestamps, clear section headers, structured format - Improve: Governance flowcharts, accountability process diagrams #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Original podcast format available - Improve: Audio summary highlighting key accountability principles #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Definitions of key terms, analogies between religious and tech communities - Improve: Glossary of governance terminology, case study comparisons #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Action items, practical implementation steps - Improve: Workshop exercises for developing accountability processes #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear cause-effect relationships, systematic analysis - Improve: Decision trees for escalation processes, metrics frameworks #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Discussion of community dynamics, interpersonal accountability - Improve: Group discussion guides, collaborative governance exercises #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Self-reflection prompts, individual analysis - Improve: Personal governance assessment tools, private accountability checklists #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Organic community evolution concepts, ecosystem thinking - Improve: Community health assessment frameworks, natural accountability cycles ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Proper heading hierarchy, descriptive timestamps - Improve: Alt text for any embedded media, ARIA labels for complex sections #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard navigation structure, logical tab order - Improve: Skip links for long transcribed sections #### Contrast and readability - Present: Clear text formatting, adequate spacing - Improve: High contrast mode compatibility checks #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive formatting supports zoom - Improve: Ensure timestamps remain functional at 200% zoom #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided - Improve: Structured captions with speaker identification #### Forms and interactions - Present: Standard link interactions - Improve: Clear focus indicators on internal links ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion of religious community dynamics applicable across cultures - Improve: Examples from diverse governance traditions, multi-faith accountability systems #### Inclusive language - Present: Generally neutral terminology, defined technical terms - Improve: Sensitivity around religious trauma, inclusive governance language #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear structure, consistent formatting - Improve: Content warnings for abuse discussions, shorter summary sections #### Representation - Present: Focus on accountability principles applicable to all communities - Improve: Examples from diverse community types, varied leadership models #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful discussion of abuse topics, emphasis on victim protection - Improve: Resources for those experiencing similar situations, support information ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Syllogistic reasoning about accountability (premise: cultures without accountability enable abuse; NAR lacks accountability; conclusion: NAR enables abuse) - Inductive strength: Pattern recognition from multiple abuse cases suggesting systemic issues - Causal reasoning: Clear cause-effect relationships between governance structures and outcomes - Analogical strength: Effective parallels between religious and tech community dynamics #### Fallacies - Hasty generalization: Some broad statements about entire movements based on specific cases - could benefit from more nuanced language - Appeal to consequences: Evaluating doctrine primarily by outcomes rather than truth claims - though this is somewhat intentional given the fruit-based framework #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Respectful but firm, acknowledging complexity while maintaining clear positions on accountability ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: Discussion of how abusive leaders deny or minimize accountability concerns - Attack: Analysis of how critics are attacked as "heresy hunters" or lacking honor - Reverse victim/offender: Examination of how accountability advocates are portrayed as the problem rather than the abuse they expose - Emotional cues: Recognition of how spiritual language and honor rhetoric can manipulate emotional responses to avoid accountability ## 🎯 Conclusion Powell's experience demonstrates that maintaining spiritual authenticity requires systematic accountability structures that can evaluate leaders by their fruit, not just their charisma or doctrinal positions. The conversation offers --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] None of us want to go to a normal [00:01] church. We want to go to the special [00:03] church and then we're wondering why the [00:06] special church is pasurred by a [00:07] narcissist. There's been high level [00:09] demonic infiltration at the highest [00:11] levels of the NER. And until that is [00:13] acknowledged and repented of and then [00:16] really dug into about what led to those [00:18] doors being opened to those demons, [00:20] nothing's going to change, you know, and [00:22] these painful exposures are going to [00:24] continue to be necessary. the amount of [00:27] ties that Bill Johnson has going, you [00:29] know, he was going to speak at Kirby [00:31] Lander's church. I'm probably [00:32] mispronouncing his name, but like this [00:34] guy is like a a straightup syncratistic [00:37] new age mystic dude. It needs to give us [00:40] a reality check that so much of these [00:42] doctrines in practice are delusional. [00:45] They do not have the fruit. How do you [00:48] know when you're being deceived? You [00:49] begin to examine what you thought was [00:51] the scriptures, but really what you were [00:54] handed was not the scriptures. You were [00:55] handed a lens through which to read the [00:57] scriptures and it is difficult sometimes [01:00] to determine what is what is Bible and [01:03] what is lens. [01:07] Welcome to the minor prophets podcast. I [01:09] am John Mark Baker and today I am joined [01:12] by my congenial guest Stephen Powell. Uh [01:16] Stephen man, how are you doing? [01:18] >> Doing good. Good to be here John Mark. [01:20] Thanks for having me. [01:22] Yeah. Well, uh, Stephen has a podcast [01:26] and, uh, a ministry called Steven Powell [01:28] Ministries. I don't know where he got [01:31] the name, but I am, uh, uh, he's he's a [01:35] friend and really a hero. For those of [01:38] you who may not be familiar with who [01:40] Stephen Powell is and uh why he is a [01:43] significant figure to me, um he he [01:47] really [01:49] Steven was a uh follower for a time, [01:52] mentored really by Todd Bentley and um [01:57] was tasked with the unfortunate job of [02:00] having to expose his own spiritual [02:03] father. Some of you are familiar with [02:05] that, some of you may not be. But it [02:07] sent him uh along this journey of kind [02:11] of recalculating [02:14] where he is in this kind of charismatic [02:16] space as it has for a lot of us, myself [02:19] included. You know, we all have kind of [02:21] had our watershed moments of, you know, [02:24] like for me it was when IHOP got exposed [02:28] and the prophetic history was totally [02:30] like fake and I just began to sort of [02:33] like dig into what was real and I knew [02:36] that I had real experiences in the [02:40] spirit. Um, but there was so much of [02:43] like what was a charismatic experience [02:46] that was put out for me, a narrative [02:49] that I was supposed to uh place myself [02:51] in that was this grand sweeping [02:54] narrative of the of the prophetic [02:55] history. You know, this escatological [02:58] um, [02:59] >> you know, saga that we're playing a role [03:02] in right now. And I had no idea the [03:05] latter rain influences and all these [03:07] things and sort of detangling from all [03:10] of that has been quite the job. And then [03:13] you and I were doing that while we're [03:15] still, [03:16] >> you know, ministering. And man, so uh [03:21] man, why don't you just like I don't [03:24] know where you want to go from that, but [03:26] uh why don't you talk? [03:28] >> No, it's all good. [03:29] >> Uh yeah, again, thanks for having me, [03:31] John Mark. Yeah, it it's been a lot. Um, [03:34] you referenced uh sort of my first case, [03:37] my first experience with all this, what [03:39] I've come to call exposure ministry, [03:42] which to some people's taboo, but I kind [03:45] of lean into it because I've, you know, [03:47] since seen it in the Bible, right? I I [03:49] think it's an important part of [03:51] ministry. And I think one of the reasons [03:52] why uh it's been so shocking to the [03:56] system so to speak of the church is [03:58] we've neglected this important ministry [04:00] for for so long in so many cases. But [04:03] you know I think biblically speaking [04:06] it's clearly established both old [04:09] testament and new that whenever a [04:11] private process is exhausted with [04:13] confrontation and accountability there [04:15] has to always remain uh the the option [04:18] of public exposure. you know, for, you [04:21] know, the fear of God, the the honor of [04:22] God, but for the safety of the church, [04:24] right? [04:25] >> Uh anyways, um my my first experience [04:29] with this as as as you said was was back [04:32] in 2019 with my former mentor, uh Todd [04:35] Bentley, and I was also going to Morning [04:36] Star as well. That was my home church [04:39] for a couple years. And it was just a [04:41] real shock. You know, you know, it's [04:45] like, [04:46] you have this view of these leaders for [04:48] so long. you grow up in this movement [04:50] and they're the heroes of of the faith. [04:53] And you know, in your mind, in your [04:55] heart, uh they're not just people that [04:57] have uh these incredible encounters and [05:00] have this incredible gift from God, but [05:02] I also saw people like Rick Joiner is [05:04] people of integrity, you know, people of [05:06] honor. And then to see him handle that [05:08] situation in such a uh a corrupt way, in [05:12] such a sinful and uncristlike way, you [05:17] know, was shocking. So it was like it [05:18] was like trauma compacted upon trauma, [05:21] you know, like the trauma, the shock of [05:22] my mentor discovering that he's a sexual [05:24] predator and then discovering I didn't [05:27] know this, but it went back to his youth [05:29] when he was put in prison for sexually [05:32] assaulting a kid, you know, which [05:35] conveniently nobody ever talked about, [05:37] you know, you're not allowed to talk [05:38] about that stuff. But then it was just [05:39] one thing after another and then like [05:42] you were saying John Mark it's taken [05:45] such a process you know to just process [05:48] all this and then you know kind of [05:50] figure out guys like me and you like [05:52] where where we land with all this and [05:53] then there was this period of time where [05:56] we're like okay well where do we belong [05:58] you know we're not going to like become [06:00] John MacArthur type you know [06:02] cessationist right we we've seen the [06:04] work of the spirit but we've also felt [06:06] like and I think you would agree [06:08] that we don't fit really in the NAR [06:11] anymore, you know, expressions like [06:13] that. But I'm encouraged though, John [06:15] Mark, because I I really do believe [06:17] we're seeing something new emerge, you [06:19] know, out of all this, you know, guys [06:20] like you and I where we want the Holy [06:23] Spirit, but we also want wisdom, we want [06:25] safety, we want holiness, you know, we [06:27] want [06:28] >> scriptural Christianity, you know. So, [06:31] >> and one of the things that's kind of [06:33] disorienting just a little bit is that's [06:37] what I've always wanted [06:39] >> and that's what I thought I had. And if [06:42] I was deceived then, you know, it's you [06:46] kind of ask yourself like how do you [06:48] know how do you know when you're being [06:50] deceived? [06:52] And man, it it just really [06:56] um it you begin to examine what you [07:00] thought was the scriptures, but really [07:03] what you were handed was not the [07:04] scriptures. You were handed a lens [07:06] through which to read the scriptures. [07:08] >> And it is difficult sometimes to [07:11] determine what is [07:12] >> what is Bible and what is lens [07:16] >> and um you know because there's there's [07:18] scriptural justification for a lot of [07:20] things. And so like when we're thinking [07:22] about some of the things that we're [07:24] shifting on that we don't that we don't [07:27] line up with doctrinally anymore, like [07:30] what's one thing that you're changing as [07:32] you're as you're sort of re-evaluating [07:36] everything? [07:38] >> Yeah. Well, I mean, one thing that [07:40] really stands out to me is [07:42] this whole concept of you may give give [07:45] a li lip service to like an important [07:48] doctrine or an important scriptural [07:49] belief, but you know, you have to really [07:52] evaluate the fruit of that doctrine and [07:55] how it plays out. You referenced it with [07:56] the with like the prophetic histories of [07:58] Kansas City. [08:00] I've I've I've come to this place where [08:02] I've had to accept that there's been an [08:04] elevation of not just these apostles and [08:06] prophets, but really like the mythology [08:09] that's been created out of this big just [08:13] tangled mess of okay, was it a false [08:17] prophecy? Was it a real angelic [08:18] encounter? Was it something real that [08:21] happened but greatly exaggerated? It's [08:23] this big mess that's created this [08:25] mythology that's actually held up a lot [08:28] of parts of this movement. And I've had [08:31] to accept that in practice [08:34] many of these apostles and prophets in [08:36] particular in the NR [08:38] are operating outside of scriptural [08:41] boundaries. They are operating in what I [08:44] would call illegitimate false authority [08:47] you know and then then you talk to their [08:49] followers. I mean, even just recently, I [08:51] think over the weekend, it was announced [08:53] that, you know, Mike Bickle could be [08:55] coming back, but it's the people that [08:57] are pushing that are still the people [08:59] that are totally bought in to the [09:02] prophetic histories and the mythology [09:04] and they still have an emotional [09:05] attachment to that because so much of [09:07] their lives and so much of their [09:09] worldview has been anchored in that and [09:12] it's just too much for them to give up [09:13] at this point to accept the truth that [09:15] Mike Bickle is actually a wolf and, you [09:18] know, has the characteristics of of a [09:20] false prophet, not a true prophet, [09:21] right? A false apostle. Uh but you know, [09:24] that's to answer your question, that's [09:26] been one of the things is just [09:28] re-evaluating everything and saying, [09:30] "Okay, how does this work out in [09:32] practice?" And then once we evaluate the [09:35] fruit of something, Jesus said, "This is [09:37] actually how you discern true prophets [09:39] from false prophets. You will know a [09:41] tree by its fruit." So that's been very, [09:44] very shocking. But of course, you know, [09:46] things like culture of honor. I always [09:48] had issues with Culture of Honor just [09:50] because I felt like it wasn't addressing [09:53] it wasn't encompassing so much of the [09:55] other scriptures, you know, that that [09:57] are supposed to balance it out. But now [10:01] I've just come to see the leaven of [10:03] that, you know, as as you know, once [10:06] again, not just the way it's taught, but [10:07] the way it's walked out as I would call [10:09] it a false teaching, you know, that that [10:12] >> blends elements of scriptural truth, but [10:15] the way it's been created, it [10:17] >> it's become something false. And as you [10:19] pointed out many times, it aids in [10:21] something false and evil, which is cover [10:23] up culture, [10:24] >> you know. [10:24] >> Yeah. But it is, you don't want a [10:26] culture of dishonor, [10:28] >> but [10:29] But yeah, the the way that honor the way [10:32] that you define honor essentially means [10:36] holding these people up to basically [10:39] above accountability. [10:42] >> Yeah. And another one that comes to mind [10:44] just in talking about uh beliefs that [10:47] I've had to re-evaluate just just the [10:49] whole narrative of you know like the the [10:52] end time outpouring and the billion soul [10:54] harvest all of that. It's like once [10:57] again when you start to evaluate things [11:00] like that, you're like, "Oh, the billion [11:01] soul harvest isn't even in the Bible." [11:03] That's that's all coming out of the [11:05] mythology of guys like Bob Jones who [11:08] >> allegedly I say now allegedly had these [11:11] encounters. And the reason why I say [11:13] that people some people won't like me [11:15] saying that, you know, because it was [11:16] just taken as gospel, as canon, you [11:19] know, like whatever Bob Jones said [11:20] forever. But I have to say allegedly now [11:24] because there's a chance that he had [11:25] some of these encounters, but the [11:26] credibility of these guys in my in my [11:29] eyes is completely shot. [11:31] >> Yeah, [11:31] >> it's done. And I would not be a [11:33] responsible Christian if I continued to [11:36] believe not just these individuals, but [11:39] this group after they showed me over and [11:41] over again that they're they they're [11:44] rampid with fraud and with sexual abuse [11:47] and sin and all these different things, [11:49] right? Yep. So yeah, but that that's big [11:53] right there, like the end time stuff [11:55] because you don't realize just how much [11:57] of your life and your future and [11:59] everything was tied up in that. But once [12:02] again, the fruit, evaluate the fruit. [12:04] It's a lot of stadiums. It's a lot of [12:05] money for the guys at the top, but it's [12:08] not really bill of goods that they keep [12:10] selling you. [12:10] >> Yeah. Yeah. you think about what these [12:12] stadium events that have happened and [12:15] like what of real impact has happened [12:18] from from these things and [12:21] you know admittedly it's tough to [12:23] quantify even if there really is fruit [12:26] it would be tough to kind of point to it [12:28] right here's one of the things that I'm [12:30] I'm reprocessing [12:32] um I have a lot more humility [12:36] now towards some of the discernment [12:40] ministry [12:41] types, you know, the Steve Kosars, [12:44] >> like just cards cards on the table. [12:46] Sorry, Steve, if you're watching this. [12:48] >> Um, I I I just I just couldn't take it. [12:53] I just couldn't take the tone. I [12:55] couldn't stomach the, you know, kind of [12:58] the mockery and I had a bias that was [13:03] basically like, well, they're [13:05] cessationists or whatever anyway and so [13:08] I'm not going to [13:10] >> I'm not going to uh pay attention [13:12] because they already are going to write [13:15] it off and they're going to find an [13:17] excuse to write off any genuine gift. [13:19] And so that was the narrative I told [13:21] myself. And but [13:23] >> because I told myself that they had a [13:26] bias that created in me a bias against, [13:29] you know, somebody with a bias can still [13:31] present solid evidence for you to to [13:35] consider. Um and that wasn't something [13:38] that I was mature enough, I think, to to [13:41] have in mind. Another one is a lot more [13:45] humility towards the historic teachings [13:48] of the church. You know, I come from a [13:50] Pentecostal tradition [13:53] >> and as do you, right? And you know, as [13:57] Pentecostals were by nature [14:00] restorationists, we believe that the [14:03] Holy Spirit began reinvigorating a gift [14:07] of the spirit to a greater degree um in [14:10] the uh 20th century. [14:13] >> Yeah. And I think that for me, [14:18] I began to see that as like a trend. [14:21] Okay. Well, if that's going to happen, [14:22] then there's going to be more gifts that [14:24] are going to be sort of reinvigorated [14:26] and restored. Right? This is a [14:28] restorationist sort of movement. And so [14:31] it it be it creates this chronological [14:35] snobbery to borrow CS Lewis's term. uh [14:39] where [14:40] >> now we here from this end of history are [14:43] looking down upon you know 2,000 years [14:46] of Christians that have been walking in [14:48] fellowship with the Holy Spirit that [14:50] have been used of God in spiritual gifts [14:52] that like as if the Holy Spirit just [14:56] wasn't doing anything for 2,000 years [14:59] and then all of a sudden a hundred years [15:01] ago just like started doing stuff again [15:05] and you know and I always thought the [15:07] historic position of the church was [15:08] either, you know, like my brand of [15:11] Pentecostalism or cessationism and not [15:14] realizing that really the entire [15:16] majority of church history is kind of [15:20] basically continuationist. [15:22] Yeah. [15:24] Yeah. That that's good. I I've felt the [15:27] Lord do a similar work in my heart as [15:30] well. I have more appreciation for [15:32] groups and and branches of Christianity [15:35] that uh I would have just ignored before [15:39] or you know in in you know in the worst [15:42] cases you know would have had that that [15:43] snobbery and that you know that uh bad [15:46] bad view of you know like I've been [15:49] doing more research uh historically into [15:51] the historical church and I have more [15:53] respect now you know for for you know [15:56] some of those ancient branches but uh [15:59] you Because Pentecostalism comes out of [16:03] Protestantism, I think a lot of the [16:06] Protestants, you know, there were those [16:07] battles, you know, between the Catholics [16:09] and the Protestants for hundreds of [16:10] years and there was this sort of [16:12] systematic just dismissal of everything [16:15] on that side with with those guys, [16:17] >> you know. So, I think it it kind of just [16:20] carried down traditionally and caused us [16:22] to not see a lot of even even the good, [16:25] you know. But yeah, you're right. The [16:26] Holy Spirit has been at work. The Holy [16:28] Spirit is at work uh everywhere where [16:31] people are calling upon the name of the [16:32] Lord and putting their their trust in [16:34] Christ. The Holy Spirit's at work. And [16:37] yeah, I I think it happens with a lot of [16:39] groups though, not just Pentecostals or [16:41] charismatics. We tend to, you know, [16:43] we're very tribal as people. We tend to [16:45] sort of get locked in our own echo [16:47] chambers and kind of see our thing as [16:49] the main thing or the big thing. So that [16:52] that's something that's been good in all [16:54] this is it's caused me to look outside. [16:56] It's caused me to see [16:58] other other parts of the church where [17:00] where God's at work. And I feel like [17:01] I've really grown, you know, and really [17:03] matured uh as a result. Um but yeah, [17:07] that's a good point you bring up though. [17:08] The restoration is if they if we believe [17:11] that the gifts were being restored [17:13] systematically, well, that naturally [17:15] moved into okay, God's restoring [17:17] apostles, God's restoring prophets. But [17:20] if we go beyond what scripture says, the [17:23] authority we have or the power that [17:25] we've been given, I think many times [17:27] there are other spirits, you know, there [17:28] are evil spirits that are there ready to [17:31] offer that power rather than to give [17:33] power where you're going [17:34] >> beyond what what God has ordained. So, [17:37] >> you know, as as we've seen like what [17:39] you're talking about, the restorationist [17:40] movement continue to progress. I think [17:42] it's gone beyond. I I think there is an [17:44] element of truth with restoration as [17:46] we've come more out out of the quote [17:48] unquote the dark ages or whatever. I [17:50] think there has been progress not just [17:51] in the church but in society you know in [17:54] the western world all this um but we've [17:57] gotten to the point where it became what [17:59] I call hyperdominionists you know and [18:02] now it's like you have super apostles [18:06] super end time prophets that are [18:09] supposedly having the authority to be [18:11] gatekeepers over entire nations and to [18:13] transform these mountains of influence. [18:15] And then if you really bring this into [18:17] the context of coverup culture and abuse [18:21] culture, right? I mean, what are what [18:24] are the valid how can the concerns of [18:26] just quote unquote a regular church [18:28] member be really valid compared to the [18:31] super apostle that's been ordained by [18:33] God to change the nation? Right? You see [18:36] how it just creates this incredible [18:40] gap, you know, this incredible power [18:42] imbalance that has, I think, accelerated [18:45] the abuse culture over the last 20 or 30 [18:47] years, you know, and these are some of [18:49] the dynamics that just have to be [18:51] addressed, you know, and I've been [18:52] writing more about this lately, so I've [18:54] been thinking more about it lately, but [18:56] it's just it's been a perfect storm, you [18:58] know. So to some people it's a big shock [19:01] how we've come to this place with all [19:02] this abuse and all this exposure of of [19:05] just gross sin with these guys. But when [19:08] you really study like the roots [19:10] doctrinally uh culturally and all the [19:14] the things that preceded it, it's [19:16] actually not shocking at all how we've [19:18] come to this, you know. [19:20] >> Right. Yeah. So, you know, you think [19:23] about what, you know, one of the things [19:25] you talk about with dominionism [19:27] is this grasping for power. [19:30] >> Um, [19:31] >> that is never called for in the New [19:33] Testament. [19:34] >> Um, but they they'll justify it with [19:37] like [19:39] they'll justify it with various [19:42] scriptures about the kingdom of God, [19:45] right? So, the kingdom of God is like a [19:47] mustard seed or the kingdom of heaven is [19:49] like a mustard seed. You plant it in the [19:52] garden is the smallest of all seeds. It [19:53] becomes the biggest plant in the whole [19:55] garden. So much so that birds will come [19:57] and perch in its branches [19:59] >> or the kingdom of heaven is like yeast [20:01] and it's a little bit of yeast that is [20:04] put in the dough and it you know it it [20:07] eventually leavs the whole lump. This is [20:09] what Jesus teaches about the kingdom of [20:11] God. But when he's talking about the [20:15] kingdom of God, he's hearkening back to [20:18] Daniel. This is Daniel's uh in Daniel [20:21] chapter 2 uh Nebuchadnezzar has this [20:24] this dream and it's this statue. It's [20:27] made out of all these different [20:29] materials that represent different [20:30] kingdoms. [20:32] >> But then a stone is cut from a mountain [20:36] and it rolls down. It smashes the [20:38] kingdoms of the world and grows to [20:41] become a mountain that fills the whole [20:42] earth. And so the dominionist idea will [20:46] be like look see that's the kingdom of [20:48] God. It is a political force that does [20:52] begin to exert its power through the [20:55] kingdoms. And I would say yes and amen. [20:57] But notice the fact that it is a stone [21:00] that is carved out of the mountain [21:03] without human hands. [21:06] >> Um I think this goes to the you know if [21:09] you start reading Thomas Aquinus versus [21:12] um uh Thomas Aquinus versus Augustine. [21:16] So Augustine in the city of God, he's [21:19] like, you know, um he he has a very [21:23] pessimistic view of human governance. It [21:26] is a necessary evil until the return of [21:29] Christ is kind of kind of the view. And [21:32] if it can be influenced by by um by the [21:36] gospel, great. Um Thomas Aquinas has a [21:40] little bit more of a holistic view, a [21:42] little bit more of an optimistic view. [21:44] Um, and some days I just don't know who [21:47] I agree with, you know, um, Augustine or [21:51] Aquinas. I guess in either camp I'm in [21:54] good company. But, um, when Jesus sends [21:57] out the 12, he's sending them out to [22:00] proclaim the kingdom of God. And he [22:03] doesn't he doesn't ever tell them to use [22:07] political means to establish the kingdom [22:09] of God. If that were to be a biblical [22:13] imperative, surely instructions for [22:16] doing so would be extent in the New [22:19] Testament. And yet we don't see anything [22:22] of the sort. [22:23] >> All we do see is proclamation of the [22:26] gospel [22:27] and ministry of the spirit. And if we [22:31] see those two things, you know, those [22:32] healing, um, prophecy and, uh, signs and [22:36] wonders that attest to the proclamation [22:39] of the gospel, and I think that that is [22:41] the mustard seed, right? The mustard [22:42] seed is like the human heart being [22:44] transformed. [22:45] >> Um, I don't know. I' I've been [22:47] monologuing [22:49] >> like what I think about these things, [22:52] too. I think [22:53] >> Well, I mean, Jesus over and over again [22:55] said, "My kingdom is not of this world." [22:58] I mean over and over again even in the [22:59] gospels there were multiple times where [23:03] uh the the these questions were posed [23:05] because I think in the Jewish thought [23:07] they didn't see two comingings of Christ [23:09] they saw one so they saw you know the [23:12] the the military conquest of the Messiah [23:15] you know sort of blended in there and [23:17] I'm thinking of the the time when they [23:18] try to physically take Jesus right and [23:21] make him king and the Bible says he just [23:24] walked through the midst of him right [23:25] and the point that you're making is over [23:27] and over again. Jesus resisted that. He [23:30] resisted [23:32] the whole them trying to take the [23:34] kingdom and the gospel and make you know [23:37] politicize it and make it of this world, [23:40] right? He kept tying it back to the [23:41] gospel uh back to uh my kingdom is not [23:45] of this world. And I think his message [23:48] even the gospel of the kingdom was [23:49] firmly rooted as well uh in uh not just [23:54] that that first coming but in the [23:55] narrative that God had been building all [23:57] throughout the scriptures up to that [23:58] point including what was still to come [24:01] in the future right tied to his return [24:04] and ultimate reconciliation restoration [24:07] the future resurrection all this stuff [24:09] and that's why it's interesting as well [24:10] to evaluate just how much like the [24:13] charismatic church has shifted in [24:16] theology and doctrine and esquetology [24:18] more and more more than becoming [24:20] predtoist right because the predtoist [24:22] the hermeneutic serves them well. serves [24:25] the hyperdimenionist [24:27] uh you know sort of hermeneutic well to [24:29] make it all about now all about what's [24:31] been accomplished all about what we're [24:33] we're doing now [24:35] >> you know [24:36] >> um but once again I I I'm really big on [24:39] this now like what is the fruit okay [24:42] like you may have scriptures on it okay [24:44] but I want to see the fruit of that [24:46] walked out as well and to me the fruit [24:50] is just terrible the fruit is is like [24:53] kings and queens to rule over their [24:55] surfoms [24:57] of congregations, you know, and [24:59] apostolic networks. And over and over [25:03] again, when when these systems have [25:05] really been tried, you know, the the [25:07] greatest testing, I think, is when a [25:09] powerless, vulnerable victim comes to [25:12] those who have all the power and seeks [25:15] justice or accountability or even just [25:17] in some cases to be heard. And then how [25:20] that is handled, right? how it's been so [25:23] terribly mismanaged and handled like [25:26] like horrific like beyond what you and I [25:28] could have ever have imagined I think [25:30] was even these leaders were even capable [25:32] of and yet they think they're ready to [25:34] rule nations. They think that they're [25:37] ready to be gatekeepers for the whole [25:40] city that they're in or the the nation. [25:43] To me, it's just crazy. And I'm reminded [25:45] of what is it 1 Corinthians 6 where [25:47] Paul's like, if you can't even judge [25:48] these matters in the church to where [25:51] it's leaving the church, and that's [25:52] what's happening right now, right? It's [25:53] leaving the church. It's going public. [25:55] It's going outside. Like Paul said, if [25:58] you can't even handle these matters now, [25:59] like like what does that tell you about [26:02] where you are? the the church one day is [26:04] supposed to judge angels, you know, [26:06] we're supposed to judge the world and [26:08] you can't even handle these matters, [26:10] these small matters when they pop up in [26:12] the church. So, I think that needs to [26:14] produce humility, [26:16] >> but also like you're saying, [26:18] >> it needs to give us a reality check that [26:21] so much of these doctrines in practice [26:23] are delusional. They do not have the [26:26] fruit uh that it supposedly is supposed [26:28] to be connected to what they're really [26:29] saying and what they're really teaching, [26:31] you know. And I know like with guys like [26:33] you and me, there's been a humbling and [26:35] I just pray that more of these leaders [26:36] like in the NR there would be a [26:38] humbling. There would be an [26:39] acknowledgement that hey there's a [26:41] disconnect here with how this is being [26:43] walked out and what we've really [26:44] believed and taught. [26:46] >> Yeah. I'm I'm in the position, you know, [26:48] like I I wrote a book and I'm like [26:52] scared to go back and read it to see, [26:55] you know, what do I still agree with? [26:57] And you know, [26:59] >> there's some books I don't even reorder [27:00] anymore from Amazon, you know. [27:03] >> I'm not putting them on the book table [27:04] anymore. [27:05] >> Uhhuh. Yeah. And I'm like I'm pretty [27:08] sure I agree with most of it. Um there [27:12] there's some other things that I'm still [27:13] on the fence about that I I know I [27:16] taught in the book that I am [27:19] >> questioning now. So, and if you're [27:21] curious about that, I'm not going to [27:22] appine publicly. Thank you very much. [27:25] Yeah, for me unfortunately there's some [27:28] of the books that I wrote whenever I was [27:30] running uh with with Todd Bentley [27:33] totally into all that that Yeah, there's [27:36] just really nothing redeemable about it, [27:38] you know. It's a it's a it's a barrel [27:40] burner. [27:42] >> So, anyways, and and unfortunately I had [27:44] to buy like thousands of copies of it, [27:46] too. So, you know, [27:48] >> I guess quite literally, you know, we [27:50] can have some fun with with with with [27:51] some fires in the backyard, you know, [27:53] with the kids. [27:55] Yeah. [27:55] >> So, because it is just a [27:57] >> prophetic mess, you know, just prophetic [28:00] swap mess, some of it. [28:02] >> Um, but but yeah, you know, there's that [28:05] refining process that's happened. It's [28:07] been really good. It's been really hard. [28:09] It's been painful, especially like you [28:11] said, when guys like you and I still [28:12] have to preach. You know, what a [28:14] wonderful thing, you know, to have to [28:16] get up and preach and have to, you know, [28:18] uh, bring something for people when you [28:20] yourself are struggling with some of the [28:23] most foundational things, you know, that [28:25] have been the foundation of what you [28:27] believe for so long, you know, but God [28:28] in his grace does. Amen. [28:31] >> Well, that's why expository preaching is [28:33] just really great. And, you know, like [28:36] in my church, I'm I'm just preaching [28:38] through the sermon on the mount right [28:40] now. And um it's it's it's for a few [28:44] reasons. One, like we're emphasizing at [28:47] our church disciplehip. [28:49] >> And too often we're like, "Yeah, let's [28:52] be disciples of Jesus." Well, what does [28:54] that mean? Uh [28:57] you know, like, do you even know what he [28:59] taught? Because if if you don't, how can [29:03] you call yourself a disciple of Jesus if [29:05] if you're not familiar with Christianity [29:07] 101, you know, the sermon on the mount, [29:09] and you're not just like putting that [29:12] into practice. And it's listen, we can [29:15] maybe go overboard [29:17] saying that like exaggerating just how [29:22] biblically inept I I've always been a [29:24] student of of the scriptures. Um [29:26] >> Yeah. [29:27] And so it it's not like I'm having some [29:31] radical reinterpretation of my Bible [29:33] reading by any means. So, um, [29:36] >> yeah, [29:37] >> it's more the examples that were held [29:40] out to me as being the end goal. Like [29:43] this is the goal that we're striving [29:45] towards is this example. Every single [29:48] one of those examples has been toppling [29:50] over [29:52] >> and until there's only one example, [29:54] which you know, maybe that's what it [29:57] should have been all along. There's only [29:58] one example. It's Christ. Yeah. Amen. [30:03] Yeah. I mean, you're right. It's it's [30:05] difficult at times not to just throw [30:07] everybody sort of in the same basket, [30:09] but there is nuance, and I tried to the [30:11] best of my ability not to do that, you [30:13] know. Um, you know, me too. I've always [30:16] been a serious uh student of the word. [30:19] Um, and I've tried always to to base [30:22] everything uh off of the scripture, you [30:25] know, but when when I was really like [30:27] running with Todd Bentley and going to [30:30] Morning Star, there there was just [30:31] mixture there and some of it was just [30:33] immaturity and some of it was just sort [30:36] of following example of those that I [30:38] really looked up to, you know. [30:40] Um uh but yeah, I mean for for those I [30:44] mean that is the hope I think uh for [30:46] still the charismatic churches for those [30:48] that have anchored, you know, so much of [30:51] what they've done and said in the [30:52] scripture. I'm hoping that that [30:54] connection and that anchoring will then [30:56] cause them to to look at at some of the [30:59] the scriptures that so clearly condemn [31:02] so many of the practices and the way the [31:04] culture has gone, the way leadership [31:06] practices have gone. Uh but it takes [31:09] time, you know. Uh that's another thing [31:11] I try to do is I try to be patient with [31:13] people because everyone's kind of on [31:15] their own timeline with a lot of this. [31:17] Some people come out of it really [31:18] quickly, but other ones take years, you [31:21] know, to come out, you know, and they're [31:22] going to be coming out for a long time. [31:25] But what I have peace with now and what [31:27] I've just kind of settled on is this is [31:30] something that God's doing. It's [31:32] painful, but it's necessary exposure [31:35] ministry. And honestly, I mean, I know [31:38] this can sound cliche for some people, [31:40] but I really do mean it. I've tried to [31:43] ask myself, okay, uh, you know, how can [31:48] I let this moment pass by without doing [31:50] what I feel a burden to do? Okay, saying [31:53] what I have a burden to say, you know, [31:55] because we have to put eternity in [31:57] perspective here. We're going to stand [31:58] before God one day and there's a price [32:01] to pay for this. you know, you were [32:03] recently, you know, you've been more [32:05] maligned uh lately by some people [32:07] online, people making videos of [32:09] yourself. I think that means, you know, [32:10] you're getting promoted. Personally, you [32:13] know, we had some fun discussions about [32:15] that. You know, uh but you know, pe some [32:21] people are going to are going to think [32:22] what they want. You know, some people [32:24] are always going to falsely judge you [32:26] and falsely accuse you. But as long as [32:29] we're keeping our hearts right, we're [32:30] doing what we feel we have a burden from [32:33] the Lord to do in what we see uh [32:35] scripture, you know, giving us a burden [32:37] for, I just believe and I trust that [32:40] God's going to bless us, that God's [32:42] going to lead us moving forward, and [32:44] he's going to continue to use our [32:46] ministries for the the good of the [32:48] church and, you know, the furthering of [32:50] his kingdom. And you know, I'm [32:52] constantly encouraged by some of the [32:54] fruit, you know, that that we're seeing. [32:56] Uh I mean, we're seeing just so many uh [32:58] victims find their voices once again. [33:01] It's always amazing seeing those [33:03] stories, you know, because for so long [33:05] it wasn't the case. What's interesting, [33:07] John, Mark, is I see the exposure [33:09] movement as having all the hallmarks of [33:12] a move of God, but well, you know, [33:14] haven't we always? [33:17] >> Yeah. a move of God. It's coming, but [33:19] many people aren't going to be able to [33:20] recognize it. Like, we talked about [33:21] these things for years, and here it is [33:24] right in our midst, but it looks nothing [33:26] like the like the laughter revival of [33:28] the '9s, right? [33:30] >> Yeah. You look at um the prophets in in [33:35] the Old Testament and in the New [33:38] >> They're just exposing sin like [33:42] >> and not for the purpose of [33:45] >> not for the purpose of condemning people [33:49] but calling God's people back to [33:52] covenant faithfulness with himself. [33:55] >> Amen. And um so that's what that's what [34:00] the [34:03] that's what the purpose of prophetic [34:05] ministry is always meant to be. And [34:07] >> you know when the prophetic movement [34:11] >> starts uh receiving prophetic ministry [34:14] from people like yourself [34:17] and and Mike Winger. Um like [34:21] >> prophetic ministry of Mike Winger. Gotta [34:23] love it. [34:24] >> Yeah. [34:27] Um, you know, like that's that's what [34:30] that's what prophets were always meant [34:32] to do. It wasn't telling you your bank [34:34] card number. [34:35] >> It was [34:36] >> Now, even the point you make there, [34:39] >> it's so clearly written and established [34:42] as prophetic ministry in scripture. But [34:46] how is it [34:47] >> that so many people that just eat, [34:50] sleep, and breathe nothing but the [34:52] prophetic day and night in the N don't [34:55] see that? [34:56] >> To me, [34:58] it shows I think there is there is some [35:01] real heavy stuff going on here [35:03] spiritually. I think there's some real [35:05] deception and delusion [35:06] >> far worse than I think we we ever uh [35:09] imagined. [35:11] >> Right. Right. It is interesting. you [35:13] know, so much of what's being exposed [35:16] right now has direct connections to kind [35:19] of like the prophetic movement. [35:22] >> And I've I've wondered privately. I you [35:25] and I have had these chats. I've been [35:29] wondering how much of this was actually [35:31] a demonic spirit that has been [35:33] proliferated throughout the charismatic [35:35] movement like yeast [35:37] >> um a little levan [35:39] >> um that has just [35:41] >> been imparted you know like I don't know [35:44] maybe I'm making too much of that um [35:48] >> well I I actually don't know but [35:49] >> you if you use even the N's own logic [35:53] okay and own sort of belief system you [35:56] know how much they believe about [35:57] impartation and how much they believe [35:59] about the oil flowing from the head down [36:02] into all the garments, right? Psalm 133. [36:05] I do not think you can underestimate the [36:09] impact of all of these leaders [36:12] essentially laying hands on Todd Mintley [36:14] in 2008 and ordaining him as an apostle, [36:19] you know, and speaking those things over [36:21] him and and and to your point, you know, [36:23] what has gone out into the movement with [36:26] when things like that have happened. I'm [36:28] not I'm not entirely as sure, but once [36:31] again, Jesus said, "You will know the [36:33] tree by its fruit." We keep seeing I [36:36] mean not just rotten fruit like like [36:39] fruit that is just horrific you know [36:42] horrific abominable [36:44] uh evils that I never imagined you know [36:48] would would would would show up and once [36:50] again that has to force us to look at [36:53] reality that has to force us to [36:54] re-evaluate and make some important [36:57] pivots here. [36:58] >> And that's that's all that I'm trying to [37:00] do. You know I'm not out to uh heresy [37:04] hunt. I'm not out to uh try to just um [37:07] you know pointlessly destroy people or [37:10] or attack people. I'm trying to face [37:12] reality of what what God is showing us, [37:14] what God is revealing to us in many ways [37:17] sovereignly. And then what we're [37:20] responsible for what we know. We're [37:22] responsible for what God reveals to us. [37:25] And and yes, uh I think there is there [37:28] is what I the way I describe it, there's [37:30] been high level demonic infiltration at [37:32] the highest levels of the NE. And until [37:34] that is acknowledged and repented of and [37:36] then really dug into about what what led [37:40] to those doors being opened to those [37:42] demons, nothing's going to change. You [37:44] know, it it's going to continue to wax [37:46] grosser and grosser, you know, worse [37:48] worse and worse. And the these painful [37:53] uh exposures are going to continue to be [37:54] necessary, you know, because of that, I [37:57] think. [37:58] >> So, [37:58] >> yeah, I you know, we look at the we just [38:02] did a video Katie Souza astral [38:05] projecting and [38:07] >> good job. [38:07] >> You know, yeah, thanks. Uh [38:11] >> I had never heard some of the stuff you [38:13] mentioned that video. I'm like, whoa, [38:14] this is this is out there. [38:16] >> Yeah. you know, time traveling. And you [38:19] know, I as you mentioned, I I did [38:22] receive some criticism for that video, [38:23] but uh I am learning from Katie Soua how [38:26] to time travel so I can go back and uh [38:29] fix that video. So, stop myself from [38:32] having ever made it in the first place. [38:34] But, um like I I'm just I was of a like [38:39] I'm Assemblies of God and AG folks are, [38:44] you know, just typically a little bit [38:45] more [38:47] tame, you know, it depends where you're [38:49] at, I guess. But, um, it's just a little [38:52] bit more tame. And I've I've always been [38:54] like, okay, yeah, that's weird, but [38:57] that's not [38:59] >> that doesn't affect me. But I just [39:01] realized like, oh, no, no, but they do. [39:03] They affect the people who are affecting [39:06] the movement. Like the amount of ties [39:09] that Bill Johnson has going, you know, [39:11] he was going to speak at Kirby Lander's [39:13] church. I'm probably mispronouncing his [39:15] name, but like this guy is like a a [39:17] straightup syncratistic new age mystic [39:20] dude. He's teaching yoga and meditation [39:22] and Christ consciousness and all this [39:24] stuff. And they cancelled [39:28] >> Bill Johnson because Bill Johnson had [39:30] too much heat on him. [39:32] >> Yeah. So, I think you're the one who sh [39:34] who shared that with me. Um Yeah. [39:36] >> But I was just shocked. I mean, I [39:38] shouldn't be shocked at this point with [39:40] Physics of Heaven and everything else [39:42] they they got going on there. Uh, but [39:44] there there really is I mean, I still [39:47] hate to admit it, you know, it still [39:49] pains me to admit it, but Mike Winger [39:51] has been right about a lot of this stuff [39:52] for years. There's absolute infiltration [39:55] of the new age and the demonic, you [39:57] know, and and that's the fruit. Once [39:58] again, fruit. Okay. Why on earth would [40:02] Bill Johnson ever accept an invitation [40:04] from that man? Why? [40:06] >> Mhm. Like there there's no there's no [40:08] good reason just like there was never [40:10] any good reason there there was ever [40:11] going to be about why he appeared on [40:12] that TVN show with Shawn BS after he was [40:15] privy to the facts about Shawn's abuse. [40:18] Yeah. Yeah. I he I used to think it was [40:23] just like he was unwise in his [40:25] associations but I actually I just think [40:29] he believes that stuff. he is opening [40:33] himself up to all kinds of stuff and [40:35] because he has the appearance of [40:38] somebody who is more grounded and [40:41] credible. Um, [40:43] >> then you know, he was kind of a gateway [40:46] drug to a lot of the charismatic [40:50] nonsense that I thought that I was like [40:53] removed from cuz I was like, "Yeah, [40:55] whatever. That's just that's that's [40:58] craziness. I'm just But here's here's [41:01] the other thing though, Stephen. [41:02] >> That's where I give him uh Go ahead." [41:06] >> Well, I was going to go another [41:07] direction. Why don't you [41:09] >> I was just going to say on that well [41:10] that's where I kind of give him his [41:11] flowers and I wish [41:13] >> I wish other people that are kind of [41:14] like I don't know on the the other end [41:16] of the spectrum on some of these things [41:18] would would kind of learn some lessons [41:20] of wisdom. Bill Johnson does present [41:22] very well. He's very wise and very [41:25] shrewd with the way he presents and the [41:28] way they just have branded that whole [41:30] thing. And some other people could could [41:33] take some lessons. One of the things [41:35] that I I I would like to say though is [41:37] that it is within that movement that I [41:43] began to experience the Lord for real. [41:46] >> I and I say within that movement, I [41:48] would say maybe influenced by that [41:50] movement. Even somebody like Todd [41:52] Bentley, [41:54] >> he would teach on, you know, the secret [41:57] place, [41:58] >> but essentially all he would do, all of [42:01] his teaching was [42:03] >> crazy, but he would m he would make you [42:06] want to pray. So prayer is good. And um [42:10] he I actually think he introduced some [42:13] dangerous practices. So do not hear this [42:15] as an endorsement of any of Todd [42:17] Bentley's teachings, but just an [42:19] explanation for how this [42:22] >> how how that even in this movement you [42:25] can experience some good things. [42:28] >> So like um evangelism, I developed a [42:32] passion for sharing the gospel by [42:36] listening to some people that were [42:38] associated with Bethl. Um, and they [42:41] would they would pray for the sick and [42:44] people would be healed and it would be [42:46] and I I just wanted to see God do that [42:49] too. So I would share the gospel. I [42:51] would pray for the sick and you know for [42:54] a long time nobody was getting healed. [42:56] But um eventually I started to see some [43:00] stuff happen. I started to see the [43:02] spirit moving. I like legitimately [43:05] started to see I have led now I don't [43:08] know how many people to Christ all over [43:10] the world um [43:13] because of the because of the influence [43:17] of of people like Bill Johnson. And [43:21] >> that's not to excuse any of the bad [43:24] stuff that he's allowing in. It's not to [43:26] excuse any of these things obviously. [43:29] Um, but it it is it it makes sense of [43:33] why it's confusing for some of us [43:34] charismatics [43:36] to distinguish what was real and what [43:38] wasn't. Well, there's a complexity to it [43:41] and it's easier, I think, and more [43:44] emotionally satisfying for some people [43:46] just to throw out all of it. You know, [43:48] like the whole thing's evil, the whole [43:50] charismatic movement is demonic. But [43:52] that's just objectively not true. Okay? [43:55] There's just there's objectively good [43:57] fruit all throughout, you know, with [43:59] different people in different [44:00] ministries. You know, I was blessed, you [44:02] know, I just went to Alaska this last [44:04] week and I saw a woman who I think 20 to [44:07] 30 years ago something fell out of a [44:09] tree, ruptured her eard drum, uh [44:12] hearing, hasn't been able to hear hardly [44:14] anything out of that. I called her out [44:16] by a word of knowledge in a Sunday night [44:18] meeting this last Sunday night. She came [44:20] up and I always love it when I see [44:22] people heal healed of some sort of [44:24] deafness or some sort of ear thing [44:25] because they usually will react, you [44:27] know, and it's and it it can be [44:28] traumatic and just cool, you know, for [44:30] the demonstration, but she visibly [44:33] emotionally reacted when God opened up [44:35] her ear [44:36] >> and testified to to God healing it. [44:38] There was someone else that during the [44:40] meetings told me years ago, "You prayed [44:42] for my wife." It was something real [44:44] personal he couldn't tell me the details [44:45] of, but he said, "You prayed for my [44:46] wife, an issue she'd been struggling [44:48] with her whole life. she has not [44:49] struggled with it since. You know, it's [44:51] been years since you prayed for her. [44:52] >> So, you hear testimonies like that and [44:54] and yes, I mean, once again, people [44:57] make, you know, call me compromised or, [45:00] I don't know, deceive still, whatever. [45:02] They can call me whatever they want, but [45:04] I was stirred up and inspired by people [45:07] like Todd Bentley, you know, to pray [45:09] like you're saying, and to go after uh, [45:12] you know, the the the gospel of the [45:14] kingdom and praying for the sick, these [45:16] sorts of things. And I saw it in the [45:18] Bible, you know, I didn't just do it [45:20] because of these ministries, but I saw [45:21] it in the Bible [45:22] >> as a continuation of the ministry of the [45:25] church and the work of the Holy Spirit [45:26] that's still supposed to be present [45:27] today. And I've seen fruit. I've seen [45:29] positive fruit. you know, now uh you [45:33] know, like the more dramatic stories, I [45:35] I I think where we have to be like with [45:36] the miraculous and with the gifts is no [45:39] matter how dramatic it is or how [45:40] dramatic it's not, we just have to be [45:42] okay with whatever it is and not, you [45:46] know, cross over in that temptation to [45:49] uh exaggerate things, right? to to prop [45:51] things up, to make some things, you [45:53] know, something that they're not, you [45:55] know, because stories like with Shawn [45:57] BS, you know, uh to me it's just so [46:00] grievous the whole thing. But but to me, [46:02] what really grieves me is people that [46:04] were really seeking the Lord and seeking [46:07] to hear God better like that. I mean, [46:10] just kind of the shame that they must [46:12] have been under for years saying, "Man, [46:14] I just must be doing something wrong. I [46:16] just I'm I just must not be as close to [46:18] God as Shawn is cuz look at this. Look [46:20] at the stuff he's getting. You know, to [46:22] me that is so horrendous and so [46:25] damaging, you know, but [46:28] >> you know, even before I knew the truth [46:29] about Shambles, God did a work in my [46:32] heart to where I I was content with [46:34] whatever I saw. You know, I was content [46:36] with whatever I saw, whether it was [46:38] dramatic or not. [46:40] >> Um because I knew it was authentic and I [46:42] knew it was genuine. [46:43] >> You know, there's something very [46:44] beautiful about the authentic and the [46:46] genuine, you know. [46:48] >> Yeah. Well, there's there's another [46:50] thing. Um, [46:53] >> and this goes back to what we were [46:55] talking about earlier with the the the [46:58] grand narratives of of the prophetic [47:01] history and and these things. It's one [47:04] thing to believe in the continuation of [47:08] the gifts that it's been going on for [47:10] 2,000 years since since Jesus ascended [47:15] and it's been the last days since Acts [47:18] 2. And so like and and the Holy Spirit's [47:22] been poured out on all flesh and your [47:25] sons and daughters may prophesy. [47:28] and and that's been the case for the for [47:31] the entire [47:33] uh age of the church. But the problem [47:35] enters in I I think it was Michael [47:37] Michael Miller from Remnant Radio. He [47:40] said um [47:42] that this grand narrative becomes a [47:47] replacement for the great commission. M [47:50] >> and so suddenly [47:52] it it's not about these gifts are not [47:55] about exalting Jesus and I think this is [47:59] where demonic spirits come in. It's not [48:01] about exalting Jesus, proclaiming the [48:03] gospel and seeing the the advancement of [48:05] the kingdom of God. [48:07] >> It is establishing a prayer movement. It [48:10] is, you know, being part of this one [48:12] particular church and this brand of [48:15] Christianity. this well if you want to [48:17] call it even Christianity this this this [48:21] thing becomes like a cancer that begins [48:25] to eat up the life of the of the body in [48:28] order to build itself up rather than the [48:31] body building itself up in love it is [48:33] the body beginning to prop up this [48:36] movement this thing [48:38] >> uh this growth [48:40] and um I I think that's cases [48:44] >> yeah exactly [48:46] Exactly. But but it is something that we [48:48] are susceptible to if we are willing to [48:51] tell ourselves a certain story [48:54] >> that I I am [48:58] very important. [49:00] >> I'm more important than the people who [49:02] came before me. I'm more important than [49:05] other Christians. [49:07] And God is using me in a much more [49:09] special way than he's using anybody [49:11] else. that I think becomes a seedbed for [49:15] every cult. [49:17] >> Yeah. Well, it's why it's why it's so [49:20] important, you know, Paul said that [49:22] noviceses should never be put in places [49:25] of leadership, you know, senior [49:26] leadership, and there's so many of these [49:29] leaders that are being exposed [49:32] um and and and it's being revealed that [49:34] they had just such brokenness that was [49:36] never confronted with the power of the [49:38] cross before they gained real influence [49:41] and power, you know, positional power in [49:44] in the church. And to me, that that's [49:46] such a tragedy. You know, it's such a [49:49] tragedy. You know, they did a study a [49:51] little while back. I can't remember the [49:52] group that did it, but you know, [49:54] ministry is one of the number one [49:56] positions that narcissists, you know, [49:59] people with narcissistic personality [50:01] disorder seek out. You know, because [50:03] it's [50:04] >> it's a lot of power that's given and a [50:07] lot of times it's low barrier entry. You [50:09] know, it's not hard to get into those [50:11] positions of power. But I really think [50:14] we need to have a more in-depth process [50:15] of of really um you know knowing those [50:18] that labor among us, you know, and and [50:20] in the charismatic movement, [50:21] unfortunately, someone can really fast [50:24] track their way to the top if they're [50:26] gifted and charismatic. I mean, Todd [50:27] Bentley, I mean, he's he's barely even [50:29] out of high school and he's like one of [50:31] the biggest shakers in the movement fast [50:33] as you could snap your fingers because [50:34] he's charismatic and he's gifted, you [50:37] know, like that just not be like you [50:40] can't, you know, in the Bible, you [50:41] couldn't even be a priest until you're [50:42] 30. I think there's some wisdom in that, [50:45] you know. [50:47] >> I I really do. I think there's some [50:49] positions that you shouldn't even [50:51] qualify for until there's a certain [50:53] amount of uh track record and life [50:56] experience under your belt, you know. [50:58] >> Well, I I actually think that this is [51:00] this is one of the things I'm going to [51:02] think I I think I'm going to do a whole [51:04] episode on this. Mhm. [51:05] >> Um uh [51:09] online ministries [51:11] proliferate in the absence of real [51:14] disciplehip happening in churches. Mhm. [51:17] >> And the reason that we're having um a [51:21] crisis within the charismatic movement [51:24] >> is I think because the modern [51:26] evangelical structure [51:29] is set up so as not to make disciples [51:32] but to make an audience. [51:36] And so we have an audience and there and [51:39] that audience is looking to be [51:40] discipled. and they can't be discipled [51:43] by the structure that they presently [51:45] have access to unless there's, you know, [51:48] that I'm speaking in sweeping [51:49] generalities. There's obviously loads of [51:51] exceptions to what I'm talking about. [51:52] I'm talking about a kind of a um where [51:56] the attention of the church is. It's on [51:58] Sunday morning. Sunday morning is [52:00] important, but Sunday morning is not [52:02] sufficient for disciplehip. And what is [52:06] important for disciplehip is having a [52:08] real relationship with a real person who [52:12] is actually following Jesus. And um [52:16] >> like I had that when I was a teenager. I [52:18] had my my youth pastor mentored me, [52:21] taught me how to read the Bible, taught [52:22] me how to pray, taught me how to really [52:24] have a life with God. And um I think in [52:29] the absence of that we fill that vacuum [52:32] with people online and then people like [52:37] Google Prophet Loy and they see all the [52:40] stuff that he's doing and wow look at [52:43] this guy who really knows the Lord. Look [52:45] at him operating in this supernatural [52:47] gift. And there's no there's no [52:51] foundation of disciplehip that has been [52:53] established so that somebody can discern [52:56] true from false. Somebody can can know [52:59] what the real thing is so that they can [53:01] recognize the the the thing that's just [53:04] that's demonic. And so anyway, I I I [53:09] think that if the charismatic church and [53:13] I think the evangelical church more [53:14] broadly can emphasize disciplehip, [53:19] um it's not going to be the magic [53:21] bullet, but it is going to contribute [53:23] towards helping uh uh the church become [53:26] more healthy. [53:28] >> Yeah. I think what you're I think what [53:30] you're getting at is some of the same [53:32] challenges [53:34] uh that society faces as progress [53:37] happens will always mirror and always [53:40] parallel some of the same challenges [53:42] that the church has as well. And you [53:45] know in a developed nation like America [53:47] here in in our nation the you know the [53:51] the the the middle class and and like [53:53] small businesses is the backbone of the [53:55] the economy and the development of that [53:58] has actually been you know one of the [54:00] primary reasons for our rise to such [54:02] power and global dominance. But there's [54:05] been such an evolution of [54:07] entrepreneurship and the way that that [54:09] whole sector's developed. It's [54:10] transformed the church as well. of the [54:11] church as a result has become so much [54:14] more entrepreneurial, so much bottom [54:16] line focused. So many of the pastors [54:18] anymore aren't real pastor pastors like [54:20] the CEO, [54:21] >> they're more CEOs. Like, can you really [54:23] call yourself a shepherd if you never [54:24] even meet with a sheep [54:27] >> like throughout the week? And there's [54:28] some pastors that literally go from [54:31] Sunday morning pullpit to Sunday morning [54:32] pullpit week to week and never even have [54:34] interaction with the sheep. [54:36] >> And there's some of them are proud of [54:37] that. like it's like it's their [54:39] apostolic [54:41] >> uh inauguration or whatever. [54:43] >> And here's what's even worse. these [54:44] itinerate ministers aren't even part of [54:46] a church [54:47] >> that like you know a lot of them they're [54:50] you know they say they are [54:52] >> all [54:53] >> I've seen that for years you know [54:55] itinerates [54:56] >> I I've known many itinerates where [54:58] they're globe trottting they're [55:00] preaching in and out of churches and [55:01] when they go home they hide in their [55:02] houses you know they're not even a part [55:04] of a local fellowship which I think is a [55:06] tragedy you know a tragedy uh but yeah [55:10] we have to understand these challenges [55:11] that we're facing and we have to adapt, [55:15] you know, we have to we have to make [55:16] changes, you know, so that we can [55:18] preserve [55:19] >> the integrity of what Jesus and the [55:22] apostles left to us, you know, and and [55:24] and and and carry it forward and [55:26] continue to fulfill the mission of the [55:29] church, but to take care of the church, [55:31] you know, and to honor and glorify God, [55:33] you know, with what we do. And uh yeah, [55:38] you know, I think there's been a house [55:39] church movement, you know, you've been a [55:41] part of that. So, I do see positive [55:43] efforts for not just leaders but the the [55:46] the people of God to to have that, you [55:50] know, to to return to some of those [55:53] apostolic, you know, book of Acts type [55:55] uh fundamentals of the church. But we [55:58] just got to be aware of these challenges [55:59] and aware that with a lot of times [56:01] without even people recognizing it, you [56:03] can become shut off from a community [56:06] that you're supposed to be integrated [56:08] into in person and just be isolated [56:11] through the internet and through some of [56:13] these connections we have online. But [56:15] those are insufficient. You know, we [56:17] need other people in our lives that know [56:19] our lives that we can actually meet with [56:22] face to face. you can pray with us, that [56:24] can actually come and hold our hands [56:26] when we're at the hospital or whatever. [56:28] And [56:29] >> and I think that's a beautiful thing [56:30] about the local church, too. My my [56:31] church here, I go to an Assembly of God [56:33] church, uh, just like you. And my pastor [56:35] is a wonderful pastor, and [56:38] >> he wants to scale his ministry and grow [56:41] and continue to see growth and [56:42] everything like everybody else, but he [56:44] doesn't do that at the expense of his [56:46] burden and responsibility as a shepherd. [56:48] He's always been so good on that stuff. [56:50] So, really appreciate it. it. This is [56:53] still happening. There are still healthy [56:55] churches, you know, but sometimes you [56:56] got to look past what is drawing all the [56:58] attention to see it. So, [57:00] >> exactly right. Yeah. Be Yeah. None of us [57:04] none of us want to go to a normal [57:06] church. We want to go to the special [57:08] church [57:09] >> and then we're wondering why the special [57:11] church is pasurred by a narcissist. [57:13] And [57:14] >> you know, like [57:16] >> you know, none of us want to go to the [57:18] humble church. [57:19] >> That is human nature. But with [57:20] everything I've gone through, I'm like [57:21] attracted to the boring. Like I'm the [57:24] mundane now. I'm like, you know, I love [57:27] my church. You know, it's like it's like [57:29] you're saying, you know, AG is not it's [57:31] not too fantastical, you know, it's not [57:33] too, you know, out there, but it's a [57:35] good family church. Preaches the word [57:37] every week. Has good [57:39] >> uh small groups where we connect and do [57:41] disciplehip, mentorship, all that stuff. [57:43] So, [57:44] >> I I'm enjoying enjoying that versus what [57:47] I came out of when I was with Todd. I [57:49] mean, it was just a crazy charismatic [57:51] circus all over the world. It was [57:54] exciting. I got into that when I was in [57:55] my 20s and it was everything I [57:58] >> I dreamed of, at least up to that point. [58:00] But then it became a nightmare pretty [58:02] quick. And as I've gotten older, you [58:04] know, I've come to value different [58:05] things, you know. I value [58:07] >> uh stability. I value s, you know, I [58:11] value the the essentials being done [58:13] well, you know, week to week. So, [58:16] >> yeah. And it's not to say we shouldn't [58:18] be [58:20] seeking the Lord for gifts of the spirit [58:22] and evangelism and all those things. Um [58:25] but without disciplehip and real [58:27] community, it's all it it's [58:30] >> it is uh a flash in the pan and or [58:34] worse, it it just becomes a cult. [58:37] >> And so [58:38] >> yeah. [58:39] >> Yeah, man. Hey, Stephen, I'm so grateful [58:42] for you and uh grateful for everything [58:45] you're doing. Um, if you want to check [58:47] out Stephen's podcast, he talks about [58:49] this kind of stuff all the time. It'll [58:51] be linked down below. Also, you know, I [58:53] think we'll do the collab thing so that [58:55] uh, you know, this this, uh, will also [58:58] be on on your thing. So, it's one of [59:00] YouTube's newer features. You can do [59:02] multiple channels hosting a video. So, [59:04] >> yeah, man. Um, I'm I'm grateful for you. [59:07] And, uh, um, where can people like I [59:11] know you've got a substack. What's [59:12] what's your substack called? [59:14] >> Yeah. I mean, everybody can find [59:16] everything they need to know at my [59:17] website, stephenpow ministries.com. But [59:19] I also do have a Substack. Uh, if you [59:22] just go to Substack, type in stephenpow. [59:24] Uh, I've been writing articles regularly [59:26] there, as well as releasing my podcast [59:28] uh through through there as well. But I [59:30] have a podcast, a new podcast, the [59:32] Steven Powell podcast, uh, everywhere, [59:34] you know, you search for podcast. Been [59:36] doing that every week, you know. So, [59:38] it's a lot of work, you know, getting [59:39] out those articles and those podcasts [59:41] every week. But I've really been [59:42] enjoying it, you know, cuz it kind of [59:44] forces me to really go deep and think [59:46] deeply about these things, you know, [59:48] biblically and everything. But yeah, uh [59:50] check out the podcast, check out my [59:52] website, check out my Substack, and [59:54] hopefully uh that'll add some value to [59:56] your life and just help you with [59:58] biblical clarity, you know, during these [60:00] times that we So, Amen. Amen. Well guys, [60:05] thank you so much for listening all the [60:07] way to the end and uh we will see you in [60:10] the next episode. Thanks for having me, [60:12] brother. Bless you.  📄 **Full text:** ![[Full Document Contents/Articles/He Exposed His Spiritual Father. Now He's Wondering What's Real....md|He Exposed His Spiritual Father. Now He's Wondering What's Real... by YouTube]] ## Highlights - John Mark. Yeah, it it's been a lot. Um, you referenced uh sort of my first case, my first experience with all this, what I've come to call exposure ministry, which to some people's taboo, but I kind of lean into it because I've, you know, since seen it in the Bible, right? I I think it's an important part of ministry. And I think one of the reasons why uh it's been so shocking to the system so to speak of the church is we've neglected this important ministry ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kq8rke61ybp08nxstptrgraf)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - people are calling upon the name of the Lord and putting their their trust in Christ. The Holy Spirit's at work. And yeah, I I think it happens with a lot of groups though, not just Pentecostals or charismatics. We tend to, you know, we're very tribal as people. We tend to sort of get locked in our own echo chambers and kind of see our thing as the main thing or the big thing. So that that's something that's been good in all this is it's caused me to look outside. It's caused me to see other other parts of the church where where God's at work. And I feel like ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kq8rke861s2eytbx7wkap075)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - super apostle that's been ordained by God to change the nation? Right? You see how it just creates this incredible gap, you know, this incredible power imbalance that has, I think, accelerated the abuse culture over the last 20 or 30 years, you know, and these are some of the dynamics that just have to be addressed, you know, and I've been writing more about this lately, so I've been thinking more about it lately, but it's just it's been a perfect storm, you know. So to some people it's a big shock ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kq8rkebkhdca69m3gvgbyx7n)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - see those two things, you know, those healing, um, prophecy and, uh, signs and wonders that attest to the proclamation of the gospel, and I think that that is the mustard seed, right? The mustard seed is like the human heart being transformed. >> Um, I don't know. I' I've been monologuing >> like what I think about these things, too. I think >> Well, I mean, Jesus over and over again said, "My kingdom is not of this world." I mean over and over again even in the gospels there were multiple times where ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kq8rkeftvk8zxej5x5neejnp)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - Morning Star, there there was just mixture there and some of it was just immaturity and some of it was just sort of following example of those that I really looked up to, you know. Um uh but yeah, I mean for for those I mean that is the hope I think uh for still the charismatic churches for those that have anchored, you know, so much of what they've done and said in the scripture. I'm hoping that that connection and that anchoring will then cause them to to look at at some of the the scriptures that so clearly condemn ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kq8rkejjxspr9h1kvqpzxvmy)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - doing what we feel we have a burden from the Lord to do in what we see uh scripture, you know, giving us a burden for, I just believe and I trust that God's going to bless us, that God's going to lead us moving forward, and he's going to continue to use our ministries for the the good of the church and, you know, the furthering of his kingdom. And you know, I'm constantly encouraged by some of the fruit, you know, that that we're seeing. Uh I mean, we're seeing just so many uh victims find their voices once again. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kq8rkeqxn51ve3q5hph6w6h2)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - I don't know, deceive still, whatever. They can call me whatever they want, but I was stirred up and inspired by people like Todd Bentley, you know, to pray like you're saying, and to go after uh, you know, the the the gospel of the kingdom and praying for the sick, these sorts of things. And I saw it in the Bible, you know, I didn't just do it because of these ministries, but I saw it in the Bible >> as a continuation of the ministry of the church and the work of the Holy Spirit that's still supposed to be present today. And I've seen fruit. I've seen positive fruit. you know, now uh you ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kq8rkexsfwf6gsj9penj68n9)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - um and and and it's being revealed that they had just such brokenness that was never confronted with the power of the cross before they gained real influence and power, you know, positional power in in the church. And to me, that that's such a tragedy. You know, it's such a tragedy. You know, they did a study a little while back. I can't remember the group that did it, but you know, ministry is one of the number one positions that narcissists, you know, people with narcissistic personality ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kq8rkf90s14s0k30awkyq2c6)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - this is one of the things I'm going to think I I think I'm going to do a whole episode on this. Mhm. >> Um uh online ministries proliferate in the absence of real disciplehip happening in churches. Mhm. >> And the reason that we're having um a crisis within the charismatic movement >> is I think because the modern evangelical structure is set up so as not to make disciples ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kq8rkfnff6bxsbkq0f5sxdth)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - you know, and to honor and glorify God, you know, with what we do. And uh yeah, you know, I think there's been a house church movement, you know, you've been a part of that. So, I do see positive efforts for not just leaders but the the the people of God to to have that, you know, to to return to some of those apostolic, you know, book of Acts type uh fundamentals of the church. But we just got to be aware of these challenges and aware that with a lot of times ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kq8rkg063p4kvsjq4jz2fy45)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted