Jeremiah Johnson How Madison Broke Free of Cult-Like Control

Jeremiah Johnson: How Madison Broke Free of Cult-Like Control ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/GpCkltoE1IU/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [Jeremiah Johnson: How Madison Broke Free of Cult-Like Control](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpCkltoE1IU) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: #cult-recovery #spiritual-abuse #prophetic-manipulation #family-separation #church-authority > author: Ron Carpenter > source: Speak Up Podcast > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpCkltoE1IU > date created: 2024-12-19 15:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: Jeremiah Johnson: How Madison Broke Free of Cult-Like Control >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Document patterns of spiritual abuse in religious contexts — recognize isolation tactics #spiritual-abuse - [H2] Establish healthy boundaries around prophetic ministry — verify through multiple sources #prophetic-ministry - [H3] Create support networks for cult recovery — maintain family connections during crisis #cult-recovery ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [[#📝 Summary]] - [[#📖 Main Content]] - [[#🗒️ Notes]] - [[#📚 References]] - [[#🗣️ Paraphrase]] - [[#📰 Newsletter]] - [[#✅ Action Items]] - [[#🧪 Hypotheses]] - [[#📊 Methodology]] - [[#❓ Questions]] - [[#🔮 Future Research]] - [[#💡 Implications]] - [[#🧠 Learning Styles Assessment]] - [[#📊 Accessibility Assessment]] - [[#🌍 DEIB Assessment]] - [[#✅ Logical Validity]] - [[#🛡️ DARVO Analysis]] - [[#🎯 Conclusion]] ### 🔗 References - [Speak Up Podcast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpCkltoE1IU) - [ICSA (International Cultic Studies Association)](https://www.icsahome.com/) ## 📝 Summary - Madison Rollins experienced spiritual abuse and cult-like control under prophet Jeremiah Johnson's ministry - Johnson systematically isolated her from her parents through false spiritual accusations and manipulation - Her physical health deteriorated severely under the stress, with dangerously high cortisol levels - The family ultimately reconciled after Madison escaped the manipulative environment - This represents a clear pattern of spiritual abuse disguised as prophetic ministry ## 📖 Main Content The Rollins family welcomed prophet Jeremiah Johnson to North Carolina in 2020, initially excited about his ministry to "unite the bride of Christ." However, what followed was a textbook case of spiritual manipulation and cult-like control. Johnson immediately targeted their 21-year-old daughter Madison, claiming she was "the reason God sent them to North Carolina." This created enormous spiritual pressure - how does a young believer say no to what appears to be God's calling? The manipulation escalated when Johnson recruited Madison as worship leader without consulting her parents, who were also her pastors. When confronted, Johnson dismissed their concerns because "she wasn't being paid by them." This revealed his fundamental disrespect for parental authority and existing ministry relationships. The most devastating aspect was Johnson's deliberate campaign to separate Madison from her family. He told her privately that her father operated under a "religious spirit" and her mother under a "spirit of manipulation and control" that could manifest as "witchcraft." These accusations were never brought to the parents directly, violating basic Matthew 18 principles of confrontation. As Madison's health deteriorated under extreme stress (cortisol levels the doctor had never seen in his practice), Johnson dismissed medical advice and encouraged her to move out of her parents' home. He spiritualized her circumstances, claiming the "spiritual warfare" from her parents' ministry was making her sick. The only safe place, according to Johnson, was under his ministry covering. Johnson used twisted biblical interpretations to justify family separation, misapplying passages about leaving father and mother for the gospel. These verses refer to geographical missions or persecution for faith, not cutting off healthy family relationships for ministry advancement. The recovery process took years and required Madison recognizing the manipulation patterns. Her parents demonstrated remarkable patience, maintaining hope while watching their daughter suffer under spiritual abuse disguised as prophetic ministry. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/GpCkltoE1IU?t=0) — [H1] Introduction to Madison's story - Key idea: National prophet moves to region and targets pastor's daughter - Evidence: "They believed that Madison was the reason they had moved into North Carolina" #### ⏱️ [05:23](https://youtu.be/GpCkltoE1IU?t=323) — [H2] Initial recruitment without parental consultation - Key idea: Johnson hired Madison as worship leader without consulting her parents - Evidence: "There was no conversation with us. We were her parents, we were her pastors" #### ⏱️ [12:45](https://youtu.be/GpCkltoE1IU?t=765) — [H3] False spiritual accusations against parents - Key idea: Johnson privately told Madison her parents operated under demonic spirits - Evidence: "Your dad is operating out of a strong religious spirit... your mom is operating out of a spirit of manipulation and control" #### ⏱️ [18:30](https://youtu.be/GpCkltoE1IU?t=1110) — [H1] Severe health deterioration under stress - Key idea: Madison's cortisol levels reached dangerous heights due to ministry stress - Evidence: "In my entire practice as a doctor I have never seen cortisol levels so high" #### ⏱️ [25:15](https://youtu.be/GpCkltoE1IU?t=1515) — [H2] Dismissal of medical advice - Key idea: Johnson rejected professional medical assessment of Madison's condition - Evidence: "Jeremiah kind of laughed and was like yeah I don't really like your doctor" #### ⏱️ [32:00](https://youtu.be/GpCkltoE1IU?t=1920) — [H3] Prophetic manipulation to prevent leaving - Key idea: Johnson claimed Madison's dreams about leaving were demonic - Evidence: "I believe it is demonic. I do not believe it's from the Lord" #### ⏱️ [38:45](https://youtu.be/GpCkltoE1IU?t=2325) — [H2] Pattern of isolating support systems - Key idea: Anyone outside Johnson's circle was labeled as dangerous or unsafe - Evidence: "Everyone that wasn't in the leadership circle of the altar was not safe" #### ⏱️ [45:10](https://youtu.be/GpCkltoE1IU?t=2710) — [H1] Misuse of biblical passages - Key idea: Johnson twisted scripture about leaving family to justify separation - Evidence: References to leaving father and mother taken completely out of context #### ⏱️ [52:30](https://youtu.be/GpCkltoE1IU?t=3150) — [H3] Complete communication cutoff encouraged - Key idea: Leadership told Madison to stop all contact with parents and other supporters - Evidence: "I was encouraged by leadership to stop communication with my parents" #### ⏱️ [58:00](https://youtu.be/GpCkltoE1IU?t=3480) — [H2] Trauma response to confrontation - Key idea: Madison had severe panic attack after being told her discernment was demonic - Evidence: "I laid on the tile floor and had a 45-minute long panic attack" ## 📚 References - [International Cultic Studies Association](https://www.icsahome.com/) - [Freedom of Mind Resource Center](https://freedomofmind.com/) - [Spiritual Abuse Resources](https://spiritualabuseresources.com/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - A respected prophet used his spiritual authority to manipulate a young woman away from her family - The manipulation involved false spiritual accusations, medical dismissal, and isolation tactics - Physical and emotional health severely deteriorated under the controlling environment - Recovery required recognizing manipulation patterns and rebuilding family relationships ## 📰 Newsletter **Recognizing Spiritual Manipulation in Ministry Settings** This powerful testimony reveals how spiritual authority can be weaponized to control and isolate vulnerable individuals. Madison's story shows classic cult-like behaviors: love-bombing followed by isolation, dismissal of outside perspectives, and claiming exclusive access to God's will. Key warning signs include leaders who discourage family relationships, dismiss medical advice, or claim exclusive interpretive authority over your spiritual experiences. Healthy spiritual mentorship strengthens existing relationships rather than demanding their sacrifice. **Practical safeguards:** - Maintain multiple trusted advisors outside any single ministry - Verify prophetic words through Scripture and mature believers - Never allow ministry involvement to damage family relationships - Seek professional help for health issues regardless of spiritual interpretations Recovery from spiritual abuse takes time but is possible with proper support and boundaries. Resources: [ICSA Resources](https://www.icsahome.com/), [Spiritual Abuse Recovery](https://spiritualabuseresources.com/) ## ✅ Action Items #### Community - Develop warning sign checklists for spiritual manipulation patterns - Create safe spaces for cult recovery support groups - Train church leaders on healthy authority boundaries - Establish accountability systems for prophetic ministry #### Education - Teach biblical interpretation principles to prevent scriptural manipulation - Provide resources on healthy spiritual mentorship - Educate families on cult recruitment tactics - Develop media literacy for spiritual content #### Support Systems - Connect families experiencing similar situations - Provide professional counseling resources for spiritual abuse - Maintain open communication channels during ministry involvement - Create exit strategies and landing pads for those leaving controlling environments ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Spiritual manipulation follows predictable patterns across different cult-like groups - Young adults in ministry transitions are particularly vulnerable to authoritarian control - Medical dismissal often accompanies spiritual abuse in religious contexts - Family separation is a key indicator of cult-like behavior in religious settings ### 📊 Methodology - Track correlation between isolation tactics and spiritual abuse reports - Document health impacts of high-control religious environments - Study effectiveness of family intervention strategies in cult recovery - Analyze biblical interpretation patterns in manipulative ministries ### ❓ Questions - How can prophetic ministry maintain healthy accountability without stifling genuine spiritual gifts? - What early intervention strategies work best for families facing spiritual manipulation? - How do medical professionals address health issues complicated by religious authority conflicts? ### 🔮 Future Research - Long-term psychological effects of spiritual abuse recovery - Effectiveness of different therapeutic approaches for cult survivors - Development of screening tools for identifying manipulative ministries - Training programs for religious leaders on ethical authority use ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Establish clear boundaries around spiritual authority and medical decisions - Policy: Develop standards for accountability in prophetic ministries - Security: Create safety protocols for vulnerable individuals in religious settings - Education: Train believers to recognize and resist spiritual manipulation - Funding: Support research into cult recovery and prevention programs ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 8th-9th grade (accessible to general audiences) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Video testimony format provides visual context and emotional cues - Improve: Timeline graphics showing manipulation progression, warning sign infographics #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full audio testimony with multiple perspectives and voices - Improve: Expert commentary tracks, guided discussion questions for group listening #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear definitions of cult tactics, biblical interpretation discussions - Improve: Glossary of manipulation terms, comparative theology explanations #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Real-life case study with actionable takeaways - Improve: Interactive warning sign checklists, role-playing scenarios for recognition #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear cause-and-effect progression, timeline of escalating control - Improve: Decision trees for evaluating spiritual authority, logical fallacy identification guides #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Family testimony format encourages group discussion - Improve: Support group curricula, peer mentoring programs for survivors #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual reflection opportunities through personal testimony - Improve: Self-assessment tools, journaling prompts for spiritual health evaluation #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Organic family restoration narrative shows natural healing processes - Improve: Growth metaphors for recovery, seasonal analogies for healing stages ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, descriptive video content - Improve: Detailed transcript formatting, audio description for visual elements #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard video player controls accessible via keyboard - Improve: Timestamp navigation, bookmark functionality for key moments #### Contrast and readability - Present: High contrast video player interface - Improve: Adjustable caption sizing, color-blind friendly interface options #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive video player design - Improve: Scalable transcript display, mobile-optimized viewing #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript available, clear audio quality - Improve: Professional captions with emotional indicators, downloadable transcripts #### Forms and interactions - Present: Simple video controls with clear labels - Improve: Accessible feedback forms, keyboard-navigable sharing options ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: American Christian context clearly established - Improve: Cross-cultural examples of spiritual manipulation, international resources #### Inclusive language - Present: Respectful treatment of all family members' perspectives - Improve: Gender-neutral terminology where appropriate, plain language explanations #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Multiple speakers provide different communication styles - Improve: Content warnings for trauma discussions, structured segment breaks #### Representation - Present: Multiple family member perspectives, both victim and supporter voices - Improve: Diverse survivor stories, varied cultural backgrounds in examples #### Psychological safety - Present: Supportive interviewing style, hope-focused conclusion - Improve: Trauma-informed content warnings, crisis resource information ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Clear progression from premise (spiritual authority) to conclusion (abuse of power) - Inductive strength: Specific examples support broader patterns of manipulation - Causal reasoning: Direct links established between isolation tactics and psychological harm - Analogical strength: Comparison to recognized cult behaviors strengthens analysis #### Fallacies - Appeal to authority: Johnson's claims about divine calling lack external verification - False dilemma: "God's will vs. family relationships" presents unnecessary either/or choice - Gaslighting: Systematic denial of Madison's legitimate concerns and experiences #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Compassionate but clear about manipulation tactics, balanced between empathy and warning ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: Johnson denied responsibility for Madison's health issues, blaming external spiritual warfare - Attack: Systematic character assassination of parents and other supporters as spiritually dangerous - Reverse victim/offender: Portrayed Madison as victim of family control while positioning himself as rescuer - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Used prophetic language and divine authority claims to manipulate emotions and override rational concerns ## 🎯 Conclusion Madison's story reveals how spiritual authority can be weaponized to create cult-like control over vulnerable individuals. The key takeaway is that healthy spiritual mentorship strengthens existing relationships rather than demanding their sacrifice. Recovery requires recognizing manipulation patterns, rebuilding support systems, and establishing clear boundaries around spiritual authority. For families facing similar situations, maintaining hope while creating safe landing spaces is crucial for eventual restoration. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad Purpose: Stage CEE units that become Literature notes. Split level: H3 ### [H1] Spiritual authority requires accountability structures > [!quote] [Jeremiah Johnson: How Madison Broke Free of Cult-Like Control](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpCkltoE1IU) by [[Ron Carpenter]] via [[Speak Up Podcast]]. Published 2024. Accessed 2024-12-19. > "There was no conversation with us. We were her parents, we were her pastors." Legitimate spiritual authority operates with transparency and accountability, not secretive recruitment of vulnerable individuals. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/GpCkltoE1IU?t=323#H1) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_spiritual_authority_accountability ### [H2] Medical dismissal indicates dangerous spiritual control > [!quote] [Jeremiah Johnson: How Madison Broke Free of Cult-Like Control](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpCkltoE1IU) > "Jeremiah kind of laughed and was like yeah I don't really like your doctor." When spiritual leaders dismiss professional medical advice without qualifications, it reveals dangerous overreach of authority. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/GpCkltoE1IU?t=1515#H2) #xref ID:rw_medical_dismissal_control ### [H3] Family separation serves control purposes > [!quote] [Jeremiah --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] These young adults were basically shared [00:02] with very similar to me that their [00:04] family was a hindrance to them pursuing [00:07] the the will of God. They were being [00:09] manipulative, controlling or [00:11] restricting. [00:14] >> I was kind of set as this example of [00:16] like if you have any questions along [00:17] this, you really should talk to Madison. [00:20] I was being treated as if I was in some [00:22] type of abusive home environment. Wasn't [00:25] safe within my own family. [00:28] Jeremiah would apologize for my feelings [00:31] in the situation or how that could have [00:33] hurt me or how that could have, you [00:35] know, affected or how I felt about it. [00:38] He never acknowledged when I said that [00:40] about your parents that was highly [00:43] destructive to you as a 21-year-old. And [00:45] for that, I am truly sorry. He never [00:47] owned his actions. [00:49] Your average uh person stays in a cold 8 [00:52] to nine years and then it takes several [00:54] years to recover. And so I really did [00:58] come to that place of acceptance. Okay, [00:59] we're four years in. Buckle up. Keep the [01:02] door open. Just try to have a landing [01:05] pad. [01:07] But our relationship is still a little [01:09] tenuous. So I say, "May I hug you?" And [01:12] she says, "Yes." So I get up, I wrap my [01:15] arms around her, and I just say, "I'm [01:17] here. I'm here. I'm At this point, [01:21] everybody's crying." On today's episode [01:23] of Speak Up, you're going to be shaken [01:25] to your core. This is the tragic story [01:28] of Madison Rollins, now Madison Deiri. [01:32] Imagine this. A well-known national [01:34] prophet moves into your region with [01:36] great fanfare. You reach out to honor [01:39] him, to welcome him, to bring him into [01:41] your home. But within days, he begins [01:43] reaching out to your daughter, speaking [01:46] to her about her great destiny. He and [01:48] his wife tell her, a young woman barely [01:51] in her 20s, that she is the very reason [01:54] that God sent them to North Carolina. [01:57] What does a young woman do with such [01:59] revelation? They begin to draw her in, [02:01] to pull her closer, eventually inviting [02:04] her to work for them. Then they persuade [02:06] her to leave her parents' church without [02:09] talking to her parents who were the [02:10] pastors where she was a worship leader [02:13] and come serve as their worship leader. [02:15] Over time, they encourage Madison to cut [02:18] off all communication with her parents. [02:20] What follows is devastating. Madison [02:23] describes years of spiritual, emotional, [02:26] and even physical torment culminating in [02:29] what could have been a neardeath [02:31] experience where no one on Jeremiah [02:34] Johnson's team sought medical help. And [02:37] imagine her parents who spent their [02:38] lives raising her, serving in ministry [02:41] together as a family, only to watch [02:43] their daughter leave them and refused to [02:45] even speak to them. Within Jeremiah [02:48] Johnson's community, Madison became an [02:50] example held up to others who were also [02:53] being encouraged to sever ties with [02:55] their families. Yes, that is cult-like [02:58] behavior. Today, Madison shares her [03:01] story along with her husband, Josiah [03:03] Derry. Ironically, the son of the [03:05] pastors of Jeremiah Johnson's Alter [03:07] Church, Chad and Christiri, and she is [03:10] joined by her parents, now reconciled, [03:13] Billy and Dana Rollins. I want to [03:16] welcome all of you to a very somber and [03:18] yet hopeful edition of Speak Up. Welcome [03:21] everybody. I'm so glad that you guys are [03:23] with us. [03:24] >> Hi Ron. [03:24] >> Hello Ron. I really think that this is [03:27] uh going to be a powerful broadcast and [03:28] I want to thank you particularly you [03:30] Madison for feeling safe to share your [03:33] story not merely with me but with our [03:35] audience and and like I said I think [03:37] this is going to minister to a lot of [03:39] people. So I want to set things up. The [03:42] Rollins family, you guys live in [03:44] Salsbury, North Carolina and um tell me [03:47] just a little bit about your life, your [03:49] family. We're going back to 2019 2020. [03:52] What has your family been up until now? [03:54] Well, up until that time frame, our [03:57] family, my daughter Madison is the [03:59] oldest. We have two sons, Preston and [04:02] Mason. And Preston is just under [04:04] Madison. And then Mason is under [04:06] Preston. All five of us have grown up, [04:09] Dana and I are pastors. All five of us [04:12] have grown up with a strong commitment [04:15] to reconciling with one another, to [04:17] telling the truth, to owning what we [04:19] need to own, asking for forgiveness, [04:21] just a very strong commitment to [04:23] reconciliation. Um, and then as they [04:25] grew, they started actually getting [04:27] involved in ministry work with us. [04:30] Madison started leading worship at at [04:33] 8th grade at times in our where in our [04:36] church. Preston followed right with her. [04:39] He's very gifted musically as well. [04:41] Mason has a strong desire to minister to [04:45] kids. So, he's been in the kids ministry [04:48] and was in the kids ministry for a long [04:50] time serving and ministering there. So, [04:52] as a team and Dane and I have done [04:54] family conferences, we've done on top of [04:56] being pastors, we just have always had a [04:59] very strong commitment to family and the [05:02] significance of being on mission with [05:05] the Lord together. um not in a way that [05:08] would require them to do such things [05:11] like that, but with their desire and [05:13] them wanting to be involved in what we [05:14] were doing. So, it was a true blessing. [05:17] >> Yeah, that's a that's a beautiful [05:19] testimony. That's what you know, every [05:21] parent wants. Certainly, every parent in [05:24] ministry, it's that that's your dream. [05:26] >> Well, and please know we're by far from [05:29] any type of perfect family. I don't [05:31] believe that exists, but I would say [05:34] very functional. And so it it was a joy [05:37] and has been a joy. And I just want to [05:39] say from the outset today, I am so [05:41] thankful for where we are today [05:44] relationally and connected and it just [05:47] is very very important and significant [05:49] and I'm very thankful for that today. [05:51] >> It's now I guess is it 2020 and uh [05:54] Jeremiah Johnson, his wife Morgan, they [05:56] have moved up to the Charlotte area and [05:59] they have joined the Refuge Church and [06:02] you reach out to them. Tell me about [06:03] that. Yeah, we invited them to our home [06:06] just to have dinner. We remembered what [06:08] it was like when we moved into the area [06:10] and the challenge of making [06:11] relationships. And so we invited them [06:13] into our home, had dinner with them here [06:15] along with their kids. After dinner, [06:17] Jeremiah kind of locked in on Madison. [06:20] And I when I say that, I just mean he [06:22] began listening to her story, giving her [06:25] a prophetic word, uh talking to her like [06:27] that. Ron, I think it's important to [06:29] know we um really were not very familiar [06:33] with the prophetic movement and prophets [06:36] and this was all new to us. [06:38] >> What were you told about about Jeremiah [06:40] and his ministry as they're coming in [06:43] >> that they were coming to the area to [06:45] unite the bride of Christ in the region [06:47] for the return of Jesus and they were [06:49] going to do a ministry school. They were [06:51] going to do revival nights or I think [06:53] they started out being called altar [06:55] nights and we were excited about that. [06:58] Yeah. And we participated. So when [07:00] Jeremiah began after dinner to talk to [07:03] Madison, hear her story and speak [07:04] prophetically to her, we we did this [07:09] wasn't familiar to us. So a national [07:11] prophet is speaking to our daughter. The [07:13] next day though, Madison told us that [07:17] Jeremiah had, I don't know if it was a [07:18] phone call or a text message, but had [07:20] reached out to her and said that after [07:22] they left, he and Morgan, his wife, had [07:25] talked and that they believed that [07:27] Madison was the reason they had moved [07:29] into North Carolina. [07:30] >> Madison, what what did that what did [07:32] that do to you? You're being told by [07:35] somebody that is allegedly a national [07:38] prophet and it with great fanfare he has [07:40] moved into the Charlotte region to unite [07:43] the body to prepare for the return of [07:45] the Lord and now him and his wife are [07:47] saying you are the reason that God moved [07:50] us to Charlotte. That that had to be a [07:52] bit overwhelming. [07:53] >> Yeah. I was probably 50% [07:56] um blown away and just really like uh [08:00] honored um to just be called up and and [08:03] out in that type of way cuz I was, you [08:06] know, coming out of a ministry school [08:07] going through more of a season of like [08:09] hiddenness and just trying to be, you [08:11] know, faithful where the Lord had had me [08:12] at an Amish market that I was working [08:15] at. And then another 50% of me was like, [08:17] "Holy cow, pressure." and was a bit [08:20] afraid and kind of like I don't quite [08:23] know what to say to that. So, um I was [08:27] honored again but in the same turn was [08:29] like wow I am 21. I I don't really quite [08:31] know what to say to that. [08:33] >> So in in sharing this that you are the [08:36] reason that that they came more [08:38] important I would assume than the reason [08:41] that they've told everybody which is to [08:42] unite the body of Christ for the return [08:45] of the Lord. Uh did they share this with [08:47] your parents as well? Could you How old [08:48] are you at the time? [08:49] >> Uh [08:51] >> you're 21. And did they share this with [08:53] your parents? [08:53] >> No. No. They had messaged me or [08:55] connected with me privately. It was a [08:57] conversation I had with them. Yeah. [08:58] Privately. So when Madison shared that [09:00] with us, I think we probably felt the [09:03] same. There was this 50% of we know [09:06] she's anointed. We know she's gifted. We [09:09] know the call of God is on her life. So [09:11] of course that was like wow. And now and [09:15] it has been recognized. At the same [09:17] time, there was this hesitation of [09:21] that's that's really a lot of pressure. [09:24] How do you have a real choice in saying [09:26] yes or no to that? Because the [09:29] implication is if I say no, I'm [09:31] disobeying God. [09:34] >> Yeah. [09:34] >> So, we were concerned. But [09:36] >> this is a problem, by the way, in the in [09:38] the prophetic world. Ultimately, God [09:40] gives each believer the ability to say, [09:42] "I receive that or I don't receive [09:44] that." I've talked to others who have [09:46] come out of that same church who felt [09:48] this incredible pressure that if a [09:50] prophetic word is given, I I have to [09:51] believe that it's God. [09:54] >> But true spiritual maturity actually is [09:56] being able to look at someone and say, [09:57] "Thank you for that, but I don't bear [09:59] witness to that." [10:00] >> Yeah. [10:00] >> But I do understand that feeling. I was [10:02] very much like that as a young believer [10:04] where if if someone particularly someone [10:06] who had the the reputation to be a [10:08] prophet gave me a word to say no is to [10:11] say no to God. [10:12] >> Definitely. So the next step in the [10:14] process, Jeremiah ultimately asked [10:17] Madison to be employed basically there [10:20] with their ministry with their ministry [10:22] school and then ultimately become the [10:24] worship leader there at his church. So [10:27] this was concerning to us because number [10:29] one there was no conversation with us. [10:31] We were her her parents, we were her [10:33] pastors. She was um wor she was the [10:36] worship leader every other weekend at [10:39] our church and she was also leading the [10:41] female youth every Wednesday night. So [10:44] there was this struggle of and us of [10:47] we're excited for her but at the same [10:49] time we felt like she had been recruited [10:52] and that was really challenging. And [10:54] when we talked with Jeremiah about that [10:57] he basically said well she wasn't being [10:59] paid by us which I thought was just kind [11:01] of an interesting response. being paid [11:03] is not an issue is not the issue. It's [11:06] the issue of honoring the ministry that [11:09] was already that she was doing there at [11:11] her local church with her parents. [11:13] >> And also, Ron, just to give you some [11:16] context, even after our initial concern [11:19] with, you know, him saying that's [11:20] Madison's the reason they moved here, we [11:23] let that go. We were like, okay, this is [11:25] how national prophets roll and we we we [11:30] let that go. But but we were including [11:33] them into our home, into our church. We [11:36] hosted holiday parties, Memorial Day, [11:39] Labor Day. Their family would attend the [11:43] campus that we of the refuge that we [11:45] were responsible for, you know, often. [11:47] And so we felt like there was relational [11:51] equity that [11:52] >> could, you know, at least he would have [11:54] spoken to us as her parents. So that was [11:57] now a second pretty major red flag for [11:59] us. And in that process, we were very [12:02] proud of Madison. She basically told us, [12:05] she said, she told us and she told [12:06] Jeremiah and Morgan, she said, "Listen, [12:08] I'm not going to accept this role until [12:12] you guys get together with my parents." [12:14] And so we had a meeting together. And we [12:17] were very honest and felt like and [12:19] shared with them. We felt like that was [12:21] not wise, that that was not thoughtful, [12:23] considerate. And the meeting ultimately [12:27] ended well. It was a little bumpy. There [12:29] was some little a little tension flying [12:30] here and there, but it ultimately did [12:33] end well. And I thought honestly after [12:35] that, okay, we're we're good now. We're [12:37] we recognized that, you know, the way it [12:40] should be. You know, we talked about it, [12:42] cleared, and it's it's it's over. [12:44] >> Yeah. So, this is a pattern. What we're [12:46] really kind of explaining is a pattern [12:48] that we saw really from 2021 all the way [12:50] to 2023. But we had had that that [12:52] meeting. We felt, okay, we're moving [12:54] forward by that August. Madison starts [12:57] as the worship leader at the Ark [12:59] Fellowship, which is now Alter Church. [13:01] And we were there. We showed up that [13:03] Sunday. Our son Preston was also uh [13:06] hired on part-time to work with her in [13:09] the worship. [13:10] >> We these were our children. Yeah. We [13:12] showed up. We were there that first [13:14] Sunday. We blessed them. We blessed them [13:16] from the church they were a part of. We [13:19] had them in. We honored them. We [13:21] released them. Uh but when Madison began [13:23] working as the worship leader that [13:26] August, she was still living at home [13:27] this whole time. She began to struggle. [13:30] >> Yeah. [13:30] >> And our relationship was such that she [13:33] would share with us and receive counsel [13:35] and process. And so she would come home [13:37] and just kind of share some struggles. [13:39] You know, it was a a I'll say a [13:42] different flavor, a different style. And [13:44] so she had questions and we would [13:46] process. But probably the bigger thing [13:48] is she was getting sick and she had had [13:51] some autoimmune issues before, but they [13:54] were definitely escalating and was [13:57] concerned and we were concerned and but [13:59] when Madison went to explain to Jeremiah [14:04] uh what was going on, our understanding [14:07] of that was um it was more blamed on [14:12] the spiritual warfare that was going on [14:15] within my husband. and I and the [14:18] ministry we were transitioning to and [14:22] and then there began this communication [14:24] that Madison probably needed to move out [14:26] of her home. [14:27] >> Then that was a massive red flag to us. [14:30] >> So just I want to I want to recap here [14:32] real quick. So what she was going [14:34] through was blamed on you. You were the [14:36] problem for whatever changes you're [14:38] going through in spiritual warfare. And [14:40] it was advised to her by by Jeremiah, by [14:44] the team there that she should move out [14:46] of the home. Who told you, Madison, that [14:48] you need to get out of that house? [14:50] >> Jeremiah definitely was beginning to [14:53] kind of communicate initially a little [14:56] indirectly with his own thoughts, you [14:58] know, opinions, different things like [14:59] that. He had a strong belief of, you [15:01] know, once you turn 18, that is really a [15:03] time for you to kind of just go on your [15:04] own, be an adult, and fend for yourself. [15:06] So he just kind of, you know, soft [15:08] launched his thoughts in that way. But [15:10] as I continued to get sick, as I [15:12] continued to wrestle, it definitely [15:14] became more of a I could tell he was [15:17] more concerned and really felt like it [15:19] was in my best interest to do that. And [15:21] I wasn't just receiving that from him. [15:24] Uh it was from several other people in [15:26] leadership as well. So I was getting it [15:28] kind of on multiple fronts from [15:30] leadership that I wasn't quite safe. Let [15:34] me just go back for a second. I, you [15:36] know, had spent about a year with Ultra [15:38] Global. I get asked to come on as the [15:39] worship director um for the church, [15:42] which even um and Jeremiah and Morgan [15:44] asking me and, you know, sharing the [15:46] news. They were really curious, you [15:48] know, to see how this was going to land [15:50] and impact me. And I ended up, you know, [15:53] uh like dad said, I I I wanted to take [15:55] some time to pray just cuz I knew it was [15:57] a weighted decision. It was going to [15:58] dramatically impact my family. My family [16:00] was launching a church at that time. And [16:02] so, you know, I knew that it was just [16:03] kind of a fragile time within my family [16:05] dynamic. So, all six of us met just to [16:07] talk through that decision. Um, and [16:10] eventually I ended up moving forward, [16:12] you know, with being the worship [16:13] director. The timeline moved pretty [16:15] quickly for me. My last Sunday service [16:18] leading at Salsbury was like the last [16:19] week of July and then literally that [16:21] next Sunday was the first week of altar. [16:23] So, it's a very quick turnaround. Um, [16:25] had lots to prep for. probably like a [16:28] month or two into me being the worship [16:30] director. You know, there was a little [16:32] bit of a, you know, Jeremiah has big [16:34] vision, big plans, and different things [16:35] like that. And he doesn't always quite [16:37] know what goes into some of his [16:38] planning. And so, it kind of just became [16:40] this thing where it was very much like, [16:42] okay, we're going to do this event. I [16:43] need a worship team. I need a full band. [16:45] Let's just figure it out. And so, there [16:47] was some leeway at times, but for the [16:49] most part, I just was under a lot of [16:50] pressure. And then on top of that, I [16:51] just had a lot of things going on [16:53] physically. Um, and sorry, did you want [16:56] to say something? [16:57] >> Yeah, like the more that you worked and [16:59] the more time went on, the sicker you [17:01] got. Like, [17:02] >> yeah, [17:03] >> it got worse and worse continually, but [17:05] you join staff. [17:07] >> Yeah. Which which going in like I had [17:09] dealt with different autoimmune issues [17:11] even before coming to Alter. So, some of [17:13] this wasn't new. It just really got [17:15] exacerbated. Yeah. It got much worse. [17:17] And so, you know, obviously just within [17:19] the church dynamic, the church plant [17:21] starts and we're like three, four, [17:23] sometimes 500 people on these services [17:26] and I'm like 21 years old leading [17:28] worship for the very first time as a [17:30] worship director in such a large church. [17:32] I'm like, what's the protocol here? [17:33] Like, how do I do this? Just a lot of [17:35] unknown trying to figure out trying to [17:37] serve, you know, the Lord well, [17:39] leadership well, all the things. And so [17:41] I was really wrestling because you know [17:43] up until this point in my life like I [17:45] had gone out to Bethl, my parents had [17:46] blessed me and released me well and I [17:49] had never experienced a time in life [17:51] where my parents weren't on the same [17:53] page. We made we we had disagreements [17:56] before but it it ultimately landed with [17:58] us being in some form of unity like we [18:00] knew how to get to unity. And so this [18:03] was really the first time in my life [18:05] where we weren't on the same page and [18:08] they were really concerned for me as [18:10] parents. And so there was a large part [18:12] of me that was you know still really [18:15] honoring of that and like wow like these [18:18] are my parents and I trust what they [18:20] say. I trust their perspective on my [18:22] life. So in the same turn I really felt [18:24] like the Lord called me to be at altar [18:25] as a worship leader. And so it was just [18:27] a really um a really intense tension [18:30] internally that I was navigating. So, [18:32] I'm I met with Jeremiah. I sat down and, [18:34] you know, we were meeting one-on-one in [18:36] his office and he was was processing [18:39] with me through some different things. I [18:41] had some newer questions about stuff [18:42] going on with my family. And here is [18:44] really what whether it was intentional [18:46] or unintentional on his end was a um [18:50] pretty defining moment for me. Uh and [18:52] some counsel that he gave. I was asking [18:54] him just thoughts on different things [18:56] going on with my family and just trying [18:58] to make sense of, you know, I feel like [19:00] the Lord's called me here. why is all [19:01] this happening? And Jeremiah pretty much [19:03] shared with me. He said, "Madison, I [19:04] believe that your dad is operating out [19:06] of a strong religious spirit that can at [19:09] times manifest as controlling." I [19:11] believe he got that from, you know, his [19:12] Baptist roots and kind of goes back. Um, [19:15] and then I believe your mom is operating [19:19] out of a spirit of manipulation and [19:21] control. And at times that can actually [19:23] manifest as witchcraft. [19:25] Um, I'm sitting there. [19:27] >> Let me let me just stop here for a [19:29] second. Dana and Billy. That is a [19:31] Matthew 18 issue right there. Matthew 18 [19:34] is typically abused and sometimes [19:36] weaponized against victims when when [19:38] they should not be going to an unsafe [19:40] person and confronting them. But you [19:42] guys are friends and now he's going to [19:44] your daughter and but did he ever come [19:47] to you and say, "Dana, Billy, I believe [19:50] there's a religious spirit. There's a [19:52] manipulation spirit." [19:53] >> Absolutely not. [19:54] >> No. No. And let me just clarify in this [19:56] that there there were two reasons why we [19:58] were concerned. Number one, physically [20:00] she was getting sicker. Number two, she [20:03] felt like in what she was communicating [20:05] to us. She felt like that her identity [20:08] as a worship leader was needing to [20:10] change from what she was at our church, [20:13] which was a little bit more subdued, a [20:15] little bit more, you know, would say [20:17] reflective in her worship, more [20:20] intimate, kind of like prayer room type [20:22] setting versus almost like a militant [20:26] type of worship style. So, she felt like [20:29] her identity was changing and she was [20:30] getting sick. So, that that's why we [20:33] were concerned. We did not know that at [20:36] the time. In fact, didn't even know [20:38] until the past six months. I honestly [20:40] that, you know, he had told her that we [20:43] had a religious spirit or was [20:46] manipulative and controlling, but we [20:48] sensed it. You know, [20:49] >> we sensed it and I knew something had [20:51] happened because she and I got together [20:53] for coffee and I attempted to connect [20:56] hearttoheart in conversation like we [20:58] always had. [21:00] >> And I could see the fear in her eyes. I [21:02] could see that she was unwilling to [21:05] connect with me and so then I got afraid [21:08] and fear does not bring out the best in [21:10] any of us. So by now we are [21:13] >> Let me just let me jump back if I can to [21:15] to Madison in that conversation with [21:17] Jeremiah. So he tells you that your [21:20] parents are controlling, manipulative. [21:22] What did that do to you? [21:24] >> It shattered me honestly. Uh I started [21:26] crying pretty pretty heavily. And again, [21:30] cuz keep in mind like we grew up [21:32] Baptist. So like just the whole [21:35] spiritual demons, all of that I just I I [21:39] had little to no reference point for. [21:42] And so and honestly and just in my [21:44] innocence and probably like lack of [21:45] knowledge. When you say witchcraft in my [21:48] mind that equals straight up witch. So [21:50] like I'm thinking the absolute extremes. [21:53] It totally swed a large seed of fear in [21:57] me that [21:58] >> because you believed him. [21:59] >> Exactly. Because I was trying to make [22:01] sense of my reality and nothing that I [22:03] was experiencing was making sense. And [22:04] so that seemed to be the most true. And [22:07] so that conversation sewed a seed that [22:10] actually created a large veil and divide [22:13] between me and my parents that would go [22:14] on for probably the next two and a half [22:16] to three years. [22:17] >> Yeah. just we could sense something [22:20] terrible was unfolding, [22:23] but we felt so alone and so isolated [22:27] because everything else looked like this [22:29] dynamic, wonderful ministry, but our [22:32] daughter's not communicating to us. I [22:35] think our fourth super red flag was in [22:38] that process of Madison because she was [22:40] still talking to us, but she was telling [22:42] us, you know, I think I'm going to move [22:44] out. And she says, "And Jeremiah, all [22:46] the alarm bells are going off inside of [22:48] me." Like, wait, wait a minute. That [22:51] you're not helping her become [22:52] independent. You're helping her become [22:55] dependent on you. [22:57] >> Yeah. [22:57] >> And that's that's not your place. And [23:00] your firstborn child moving out of your [23:02] home is a sacred moment. And for us, it [23:05] was distorted and very painful. [23:08] releasing your children, seeing that [23:10] happen, dreaming of how that's going to [23:12] happen, trying to be wise and loving in [23:15] that process between raising and [23:18] releasing your children is a very sacred [23:21] thing. So, we'd had many discussions [23:24] about that and we could not imagine that [23:28] our daughter would be leaving under [23:29] these types of circumstances. So if [23:32] telling her that if by Jeremiah telling [23:35] her, well, you need to just get out of [23:37] your house or you need to leave your [23:39] house, that's one thing. But then [23:41] wanting to provide financially above and [23:43] beyond her salary for me as a man, as a [23:46] father, that was a pretty significant [23:49] line. And if I'm really just honest, I [23:52] it was probably best that I not talk to [23:54] him about just how upset I was about [23:58] that as a follow. Madison, there's one [24:00] key moment where Jeremiah says to a [24:03] leader, I want to read it here. We need [24:06] to get her out of that house. Explain [24:08] that to me. [24:09] >> Yeah, there was a combination of things [24:11] happening there. Uh primarily, you know, [24:13] uh which we spoke about. There was a [24:15] level when I started working for Alter, [24:17] I was experiencing a level of demonic [24:19] torment that I honestly had never [24:21] experienced in my entire life. And once [24:23] we got into um the church context, it [24:26] was like pouring gasoline on fire. my a [24:29] large parts of my life were absolute [24:31] nightmares. And so and I processed a lot [24:33] of that with Jeremiah and Morgan. And as [24:36] I've I processed it with them, a lot of [24:38] that was, you know, chocked up to um you [24:42] know, when you start a church plant, [24:44] there's a lot of warfare that goes [24:45] around that. And so you're working for [24:48] one uh church that just started and then [24:50] in the same turn, your parents are also [24:51] trying to launch a ministry. And so it's [24:53] like the warfare of two church plants [24:57] combined. and you're right in the middle [24:58] of it. It just there was a lot of [25:01] suffering or challenge or heartache or [25:03] or torment demonically or spiritually [25:06] that I was going through. It just I [25:08] didn't realize it at the time, but it [25:10] was it began to be a pattern that it was [25:12] kind of everyone else's fault. My [25:14] parents refuge, first family, their [25:17] church, anyone who was outside of the [25:18] altar, it it was their inflicting or [25:21] their fault, but it was not the altar. [25:23] So really there was this narrative [25:25] spoken unspoken that the only place I [25:27] was truly safe was at altar. Um which I [25:30] will say in this it's hard because you [25:33] know 21 22 23 I am in such a state of [25:36] crisis I really started to come [25:38] underneath this thought process and [25:41] reality. So, I'm definitely not sharing [25:43] from the perspective of, you know, [25:44] Jeremiah and Morgan forced me, but it [25:46] was a it was definitely a narrative that [25:50] was slowly and subtly built that I began [25:53] to uh adopt and believe for myself. [25:55] >> Yeah. Yeah. Forcing probably would not [25:57] have worked. You probably wouldn't have [25:58] responded well to that. It It was [26:00] grooming. You were being lured and and [26:02] the way you were groomed or lured, it's [26:04] little by little and and and it comes [26:06] out of concern. [26:08] >> Yeah. which was confusing for me because [26:10] it felt like to the degree that there [26:12] was concern for me between whether it [26:15] was the Johnson's or different people on [26:16] leadership the way that it was being [26:18] treated you know with me moving out [26:20] different things like that it was as if [26:22] there there well let me backtrack there [26:23] was a mold component I had a high [26:25] allergy to mold that I was working [26:26] through and so I think part of that was [26:28] potentially their concern for me [26:29] health-wise but in some of the [26:31] surrounding circumstances it really just [26:33] began to feel like I was being treated [26:35] as if I was in some type of abusive home [26:38] environment. It wasn't safe within my [26:40] own family. So, you know, shortly after, [26:43] I really can't remember if it was before [26:44] I moved out or after, but Jeremiah gave [26:47] me a prophetic word. He's like, [26:48] "Madison, I see there being a severing [26:50] and a cutting away for you and that the [26:53] Lord is moving you and transitioning you [26:56] and there is going to be a grafting into [26:58] family and this basically you're being [27:00] grafted in. You're being hemmed in." [27:02] It's like, and I'm hearing the scripture [27:03] that talks about I've heard it talks [27:04] about he sets the lonely in family. Can [27:06] you remember Jeremiah ever giving you a [27:09] prophecy where he had supernatural [27:12] knowledge that there's no way he could [27:13] have known that? Because in this [27:14] situation, he knows he wants you to [27:17] move. So, giving you a prophetic word [27:19] that I see the Lord moving you out, that [27:21] that's not supernatural. Now, if he [27:23] suddenly said, you know, I saw you [27:25] yesterday in the spirit and you were at [27:27] Walmart in aisle 8 and you were reaching [27:29] for some frozen French fries and you're [27:31] like, oh my gosh, I was doing that. That [27:33] would be different. But these are these [27:35] these are words that are meant to cause [27:39] different behaviors to take place [27:40] leaving your house. But did he ever give [27:42] you prophecies that there was no way he [27:44] could have known [27:45] >> to maybe when we first met? Um but to my [27:48] recollection and being there, no. And I [27:50] was actually kind of shocked at how I [27:52] was really prophesied over once I they [27:54] first met me. But then once I got close, [27:57] it was like that kind of stopped. Um, [27:58] and it more became what you're picking [28:00] up on, which is spiritualizing my [28:02] circumstances and put it into this [28:05] really high pressure, spiritualized kind [28:07] of language and environment where it [28:09] felt like it was like I don't know how [28:11] to describe it, but it just felt really [28:13] big and weighty and like it was [28:15] something I didn't really have a choice [28:16] in. It was something that was more [28:18] happening to me because God wanted it [28:20] that way. I don't I don't know quite how [28:22] to explain it. That's probably the best [28:23] I could do. it became more like kind of [28:26] like you're describing where it's like, [28:27] "Huh, I feel like you're going to be [28:30] separating, cutting away, transition, [28:32] and a grafting in." Um, and really what [28:35] I kind of took that prophetic word to [28:38] mean, um, and it was later said a little [28:41] bit more plainly in different [28:42] conversations was that I was supposed to [28:46] in order to pursue fully the call of God [28:48] on my life, I needed to separate myself [28:50] from my family because they didn't [28:51] understand and they were only going to [28:53] be holding me back and hurting me. And [28:55] that's where it talks about, you know, [28:57] leaving father, mother, sister, brother [28:58] for the sake of the gospel. It was kind [29:01] of what was used. And so and and just to [29:03] be clear that is taking that passage out [29:06] of context. There's the Matthew 10 [29:07] passage which where he says I didn't [29:09] come to bring peace but a sword but that [29:11] in context it's talking about somebody [29:13] coming to faith and their family not [29:14] receiving that. And then there is uh I [29:16] think it's Mark 10 where it talks about [29:18] leaving a father mother for for the sake [29:20] of the gospel going it's about going [29:21] overseas going to another geographical [29:24] location for the it's not talking about [29:27] your family breaking up. It would be [29:29] where you're hugging at the airport and [29:30] you're crying and it's breaking your [29:32] heart and your mom's heart, but but [29:34] you're going to Asia to share the [29:35] gospel. It's not mom has is manipulative [29:39] and dad is controlling and and they're [29:40] holding me back from my calling. That is [29:42] not what that is. In fact, he had no [29:44] authority to give you those words. And [29:48] it it really it angers me that somebody [29:50] would if we're talking about manipul [29:52] manipulative or a spirit of [29:54] manipulation, that is exactly what he [29:56] did. [29:56] >> Yeah. [29:57] >> Correct. [29:57] >> Yeah. I because you know it it really [29:59] did feel like uh at that point you know [30:02] sacrifice was a big thing in the [30:04] environment. What are you say like [30:05] financially, relationally, you know [30:07] different things. I laid it all on the [30:09] altar of the ark or the alter church or [30:12] altar global. my relationship with my [30:14] parents, soon after, my relationship [30:16] with my brothers, 15 years worth of [30:18] relationship with people from refuge, [30:20] first family, people that like watched [30:22] me grow into being a worship leader, you [30:24] know, saw me graduate high school, like [30:27] all of these people were no longer safe [30:29] and which we talked about, you know, [30:31] previous to this. It was like my mom, [30:33] that was the narrative. Exactly. Thank [30:35] you. Yeah, that was the narrative. [30:36] >> That was the narrative. And yet he came [30:38] to Charlotte with a word from God. If I [30:42] remember correctly, he had a vision of [30:44] Jesus telling him that you're going to [30:45] unite the body of Christ for the second [30:47] coming. So, he's not uniting. He's [30:49] actually, it appears he's dividing. [30:52] >> Correct. [30:52] >> Yeah. And Ron, may I share this? I could [30:55] discern something was really wrong, but [30:57] we weren't talking. Of course, she [30:59] wasn't going to share those specifics [31:01] with us because she knew how we would [31:02] react. [31:03] >> Yeah. Those specific as far as your mom [31:05] has a manipulative spirit, your dad [31:07] isn't. She wasn't going to share those [31:08] details with us. She knew how we would [31:10] react. And I feel for Madison. I can't [31:12] imagine being in that level of [31:14] confusion. But what that released in us [31:18] as her parents, words have power and [31:20] careless words. The measure of spiritual [31:23] war and grief that we entered into after [31:27] that after Madison moved out was unlike [31:30] anything these last several years have [31:32] been unlike anything I've ever [31:34] experienced in my life. Normal grief, [31:36] but grief mixed and mingled with [31:39] torment. Sleepless night, too many to [31:42] count, tears. It's It's been very [31:44] challenging. [31:45] >> Yeah. And it's one thing for your [31:47] daughter to be maturing and us being [31:50] able to be a part and celebrate and [31:52] release and encourage that. It's another [31:55] thing to feel from your daughter in her [31:57] mind. She did not tell us that Jeremiah [32:01] had told her that Madison, you're being [32:03] severed from your parents. had she told [32:06] that and reattached. I mean, Dana's [32:08] master's degree is in counseling. We're [32:10] very committed to the, you know, [32:12] attachment theory of of counseling. And [32:15] we know the ramifications of being [32:17] severed [32:19] um from that bond, that initial bond and [32:23] with her family. And that was just very, [32:25] very significant and uh heartbreaking, [32:28] very painful [32:29] >> for our whole family. [32:29] >> Yeah. And it's not like you were holding [32:32] on so tightly. you you'd already sent [32:34] her to California to go to Bible school [32:35] and now she's back. So, I imagine if if [32:38] God's blessing was on this and it was [32:40] processed as a family, you would have [32:42] been thrilled for her to be it didn't [32:45] have to be in your church. It's it's the [32:47] idea of their they're cutting her off [32:50] from her relationship with her parents, [32:52] which is one of the most vital [32:54] relationships. Even after we leave and [32:56] cleave, we we're still supposed to have [32:58] friendship with our parents. One of my [33:00] greatest joys in life is friendship with [33:03] my adult daughters. And if I had gone [33:05] through what you went through, it it [33:07] would have been devastating. [33:08] >> Yeah. And it was so [33:10] >> Well, actually, I want to to what you're [33:12] saying in regards to, you know, the [33:14] leaving or the uh releasing adult [33:16] children process. I had experience. I [33:18] honestly think it was, you know, the [33:20] kindness of God like having letting us [33:22] have that experience, you know, me going [33:23] to reading ministry school. So then to [33:25] have this second experience where you [33:28] know my parents were really trying to [33:30] protect me. My parents protection was [33:32] interpreted as control and manipulation [33:34] and that's really important. And of [33:36] course you know like mom said fear [33:38] brings the worst out in us. Worry brings [33:40] the worst out in us. So there were some [33:42] times logging conversation where it was [33:44] challenging and it got heated or it got [33:47] intense. But the bottom line was every [33:49] time I would process those conversations [33:51] with leadership or different people with [33:52] which looking back I probably shouldn't [33:54] have their protection was always [33:57] misconstrued into some form of [33:59] manipulation or control to keep me from [34:02] pursuing or calling that God had on my [34:05] life. They were they were a large [34:07] stumbling block for me. That was the [34:09] picture. [34:10] >> So you move out of your home. What [34:12] happens next? So, you know, I move out [34:14] and shortly afterwards, I'm sure you're [34:16] familiar, but we got really, me and my [34:19] husband actually got really well [34:20] acquainted with the Sanfords, you know, [34:22] because they moved here for the church [34:23] plant. We became really good friends. [34:26] >> So, that's Nathan and Mindy Sanford. [34:28] Nathan is the son of Lauren Sanford, who [34:31] is the son of the famous inner healing [34:33] couple, the the Sanfords. And so, they [34:35] had moved from Colorado to be part of [34:38] Alter Church as well, or the Ark. [34:40] Correct. [34:41] >> Yeah. And we really became fast friends. [34:43] You know, if anyone who knows Nathan, he [34:46] is just like a big teddy bear. He was [34:47] incredibly friendly. You know, me and my [34:50] husband, we weren't dating. Honestly, we [34:52] were friends, but we weren't dating or [34:53] in any type of relationship at the time, [34:55] but we both really just respected and [34:56] honored Nathan. Nathan just he had a [34:59] natural desire and passion to see people [35:03] encounter the true gospel and the love [35:05] of the father and all of these things. [35:07] And so, that was his that was his goal. [35:09] He was discipling whether he was told to [35:11] or not. It's just how he was back. [35:12] >> He couldn't help himself. [35:14] >> Exactly. Yeah. And honestly, especially [35:16] in that environment, you know, when [35:18] altar was planted, there was no pastoral [35:20] leadership. Uh and Jeremiah and Morgan [35:22] have, you know, communicated this is in [35:24] some of their regrets publicly. So, [35:26] there was no pastoral leadership and [35:28] there was no teachers. It was strong [35:30] prophetic and apostolic from their [35:31] perspective leadership. So, it left a [35:33] lot of room. You know, people weren't [35:35] really getting discipled. uh they [35:37] weren't really being uh taught the word [35:39] or walked with and so that left a huge [35:41] gap in the church. Nathan never [35:43] intentionally tried to start something [35:45] because of the giftings on his life. He [35:47] was naturally pursued by people and so [35:50] began to you know we would ask uh to do [35:54] Bible studies or different things like [35:55] that for him to teach us the word or [35:57] walk with us through things because [35:58] Jeremiah would chime in on stuff and [35:59] then we were like hey we want to [36:00] actually unpack that a little more. What [36:02] are your thoughts? And so he would do [36:04] these meetings um and really would just [36:06] teach people in homes, ask questions. It [36:09] was a really healthy space to just [36:11] learn. And so kind of shortly after [36:13] that, you know, we're growing in [36:14] relationship and things like that. And I [36:17] had this dream. And in this dream uh was [36:20] right before a revival weekend and I had [36:24] a dream basically where I was in the [36:26] altar sanctuary, but I was on the ground [36:28] and Jeremiah was up on the stage and he [36:30] basically was sharing that I would be [36:33] leaving. I would be transitioning out of [36:35] the church. Um and I was on the ground [36:37] like in kind of like the altar area and [36:39] all of the children at the altar began [36:40] to line up and they were grieving and [36:42] weeping and I was embracing them one by [36:43] one and the dream ended. The only [36:46] interpretation at the time that I had [36:47] for that dream was that my time and [36:49] season with the altar was up. I didn't [36:51] quite understand the children piece was [36:54] symbolic of. And so I had a meeting with [36:57] Chad, Chad Deiri. He was, you know, [36:59] beginning to step in as pastoral [37:01] leadership or elder at the time, but [37:04] hadn't quite stepped in fully yet. So we [37:07] began to talk and Chad, it was [37:09] beautiful. We had a beautiful meeting. [37:10] Chad was genuinely so sad because we we [37:13] had de developed a friendship. I was [37:15] his, you know, admin at alter school [37:18] before the church started. And so we had [37:19] developed quite a relationship. Uh and [37:23] he was sad, you know, gave me some push [37:25] back of like, do you really feel like [37:26] you're hearing from the Lord? Do you [37:28] really feel like this is the Lord? Which [37:29] honestly, you know, which we've [37:31] communicated that really wasn't probably [37:33] the most encouraging thing for me to [37:34] hear at the time. And was a pattern with [37:36] leadership of like, are you sure you [37:38] heard from the Lord? Are you sure that [37:39] was? [37:41] >> So, it's a prophetic community where [37:43] people are being trained to hear from [37:45] the Lord. But your experience is that if [37:48] you heard something from the Lord that [37:50] didn't fit the narrative or the program [37:53] for their ministry, then you would be [37:56] challenged. Did you really hear from [37:57] God? Is do do you really think you can [37:59] hear from God? Do I understand that [38:01] correctly? [38:02] >> Yeah. [38:02] >> Yeah. And especially if it regarded [38:05] leaving or stepping down from your role [38:07] in ministry or whatever. Um [38:09] >> that was important. [38:10] >> Yeah. If it was about getting more [38:12] involved, that was never really [38:14] challenged. [38:14] >> Yeah. [38:16] >> Yeah. And you're not healthy at this [38:18] time, Madison. So it's everything's [38:20] going great and you're having a dream to [38:22] leave. Things are not going well, at [38:24] least physically. And uh so it it may [38:28] have made sense to have a change of [38:30] scenery. So, let me jump back again a [38:32] little bit. So, you know, before I moved [38:35] out, I began to meet with a doctor uh [38:37] that I found in Charlotte that was [38:39] recommended to me by some friends at the [38:40] church. And we're spending, you know, [38:43] thousands of dollars in tests and things [38:46] just trying to figure out. I had [38:48] developed heart palpitations, horrible [38:51] joint and body pain. I felt like I was [38:52] 100 years old, like I couldn't bend or [38:54] move certain pain constantly, all day, [38:58] every day. Some days would sleep 15 to [39:00] 18 hours. No sleep was enough sleep. I [39:03] could go on and on symptom-wise, chronic [39:04] fatigue, all the things, but basically [39:06] had a laundry list of autoimmune stuff [39:08] going on. So, I sat with this doctor. Me [39:10] and my mom went and we started doing all [39:12] of these different tests and come back a [39:14] few weeks later and the doctor's looking [39:16] at my charts. So, I did a saliva test, [39:18] you know, for endocrine things and [39:20] stuff. So, he's basically going to the [39:22] first thing he wanted to check was my [39:23] cortisol. and he's looking at my charts [39:25] and he shows me my charts and he's like [39:27] I'm going to be honest in my entire [39:29] practice as a doctor I have never seen [39:31] cortisol levels so high only how old [39:34] again and I was like I'm 21 he said you [39:37] should not cortisol is the stress [39:39] hormone if you don't know what that is [39:41] >> cortisol is if you wake up in the middle [39:42] of the night and you're just wide awake [39:44] and you can't go back to sleep that's [39:46] cortisol you're thinking about all these [39:48] horrible things that might happen [39:51] >> it's not your fun chemical in the No. [39:54] And you know, cortisol is supposed to [39:56] rise in the morning when we wake up and [39:58] then it eventually, you know, plateaus [39:59] and then, you know, of course, dips so [40:01] that we can go to bed and stuff like [40:03] that. My cortisol was at skyrocket [40:05] levels, high all of the time. It never [40:08] came down. And he was concerned. My [40:10] doctor was concerned for me. He was [40:11] like, "There's different things we can [40:12] do supplementally." He's like, "But may [40:14] I ask, you know, what is your job?" And [40:15] I told him, I was like, "I'm a worship [40:17] leader for this church plant." And he [40:21] kind of laughed a little bit but was [40:22] like kind of laughing but pretty serious [40:24] at the same time. He was like you know [40:26] he's like you may want to reconsider uh [40:29] joining a more sedentary uh church. He's [40:32] like if you tried the and mom just [40:34] started laughing you know and we're like [40:37] wow I I was secretly saying yes amen. [40:41] But you know he would go on to give me [40:42] all of these supplements and things like [40:44] that. We're trying to figure out what's [40:45] going on. But the bottom line was, you [40:46] know, that was in October, November that [40:48] we're meeting. By December, nothing that [40:50] he was giving me was working and I was [40:53] actually so sick that I spent the entire [40:55] month of December bedridden and would [40:56] sleep six days a week and then would [40:59] leave worship on Sundays and that became [41:01] my life. Um, and Jeremiah and Morgan [41:02] were aware of this. You know, they [41:04] actually, you know, they offered to pay [41:05] for me to, you know, recover and then [41:08] just do my thing on Sundays, which, you [41:10] know, at the time I interpreted as [41:11] generosity. I think hindsight, looking [41:13] back, I really wish someone would have [41:15] come alongside me as a 21-year-old and [41:17] said, "Hey, God actually doesn't need [41:18] you this badly for you to sacrifice your [41:21] health on the altar of someone else's [41:22] ministry." Um cuz I and no one was [41:25] holding a gun to my head. I was an [41:26] adult. I totally could have made that [41:27] decision. But, you know, I entrusted my [41:30] life, my health, you know, my walk with [41:32] the Lord. Like, I was underneath [41:33] Jeremiah Morgan's covering. And I was [41:35] assuming and trusting that I was safe [41:36] underneath that. [41:37] >> What did he say to you after you told [41:39] him medical report? I told so I you know [41:43] of course filled Jeremiah and Morgan in. [41:44] Thank you. Uh and in regards to you know [41:46] what my doctor said and Jeremiah kind of [41:48] laughed and was like yeah I don't really [41:50] like your doctor. Sounds like you need a [41:51] new one. Um [41:53] >> and and what's his medical background [41:55] again? [41:56] >> Yeah. [41:57] >> Yeah. I don't and I'm listen I'm not [41:59] bringing that up to mock to to just be [42:01] mocking. It's a very serious thing. [42:04] >> If he's just your buddy, if he's your [42:06] friend from school and he says I don't [42:08] like that diagnosis, it's no big deal. [42:10] But when you're coming in and you're [42:12] telling everybody you're a prophet, [42:13] you're an apostle, you're hearing from [42:15] God, you're seeing Jesus, he's coming [42:17] into your room, your angels are coming [42:18] into your room, and then that person [42:20] says to you, I don't like that [42:22] diagnosis. It it carries much more [42:24] weight. [42:25] >> Does does it does, you know, so going [42:28] back to what I was sharing, you know, I [42:29] have this dream I'm processing with [42:31] Chad. Chad connects with Jeremiah. [42:32] Jeremiah was in Brazil at the time. And [42:34] so he flies back and then we have a [42:36] meeting literally the next day. And I [42:39] remember walking through the property on [42:41] the phone with my mom and I was sharing [42:43] and I was literally in tears and I was [42:45] like, "Mom, I feel so free. I don't know [42:47] why I feel so free. Like I I'm I'm [42:49] finally going to quit." Like the direct [42:52] quote was, "I have not felt this much [42:54] relief in two years." [42:55] >> Yeah. [42:56] >> And so I said, "Well, we're praying. [42:58] Just call us when the meeting is over." [43:00] And so I I was [43:01] >> You You must have been happy at that [43:03] point. [43:03] >> Yes. Yes, I was. [43:06] >> Yeah. Yeah. [43:07] >> And this is what year? This is December. [43:10] Or is this now in the new year? [43:12] >> January. January. February. Kind of [43:15] >> 2023. Thank you, baby. [43:17] >> 2023. So that would be three years ago. [43:19] >> Yeah. [43:20] >> Yeah. [43:22] >> So tell tell me about that meeting. [43:24] >> Yeah. So I went in, you know, excited [43:26] and a little nervous and I remember [43:29] sitting down, you know, in the cabin [43:30] with Jeremiah and Morgan and sharing [43:31] with them the dream. Just a little bit [43:33] of context, the current temperature or [43:37] environment going on at the church was [43:39] very intense. Lots of warfare. I can't [43:42] remember if Jeremiah was facing [43:43] accusations or something at that time, [43:45] but it just there was a lot going on and [43:48] it was um just really tense. You had a [43:51] lot of people having a lot of different [43:52] dreams and leadership was not very [43:55] stoked. And so I sat in the meeting and [43:57] I shared my dream and I'm like and so I [43:59] I really feel like I'm supposed to take [44:01] a step down. I feel like, you know, my [44:03] my season at, you know, the altar is [44:06] coming to or ark at the time is coming [44:08] to a close. [44:10] >> So, just I just want to let people know [44:12] the reason we keep saying ark and altar [44:14] is that the church was originally called [44:16] the ark and then at a certain point it [44:18] changed its name to alter church. The [44:21] altar church. [44:22] >> Yeah. And so, you know, I'm I'm sharing [44:25] with Jeremiah Morgan and Jeremiah asked, [44:26] he's like, "Do you want our feedback or [44:28] do you just want us to listen?" And I [44:30] said, you know, I'd love your I'd love [44:31] your feedback. Again, I'm just I'm [44:33] trusting oldest oldest child, you know, [44:36] desiring to please leadership. Like, I'm [44:40] just trying to go about it the best way [44:41] I can. Um, and so Jeremiah started [44:43] giving me feedback and he basically [44:45] said, he's like, "Well, it was like in [44:47] regards to this dream that you've had, I [44:49] believe it is demonic. I do not believe [44:51] it's from the Lord. I believe that it [44:54] was a dream that was shown demonically [44:56] in the night. There will be a time that [44:58] we will release you, but tonight this is [45:00] not the time. [45:01] >> Yeah. And I was meeting with uh Nathan [45:03] Sanford here and there at that time as [45:05] well. And we're going to these Bible [45:07] study meetings just to hear from like [45:10] hear actual teaching of the word, actual [45:12] like scriptural exposition. And I was [45:14] really benefiting a lot. It was really [45:15] impacting my um personal walk with the [45:17] Lord. And I had some also like some big [45:19] decisions about leaving the altar or the [45:22] the church at that time and doing what I [45:24] was like calling me to do. And I was [45:26] discussing those things with Nathan and [45:29] um and I had my own also conversation [45:31] with my dad, Chad Deiri, saying that [45:34] like, "Hey, I would really recommend you [45:35] don't talk to Nathan anymore. Uh stay [45:37] away. He's he's dangerous. He's trying [45:40] to, you know, pull people away from the [45:42] church or he's hurting people." It was [45:44] like again just the same as her. It was [45:47] super confusing because it was like I [45:48] had never experienced that. I'd only [45:50] experienced good um experiences with [45:52] Nathan Sanford. Yeah, it it was it was [45:55] really heartbreaking. Like he really had [45:58] a heart for especially the young adults [46:00] and our perspective of Nathan was [46:04] immediately attacked by leadership which [46:06] caused, you know, I would agree. I think [46:09] there was some type of whether it was [46:11] you know in Jeremiah's leadership or [46:13] diries or whatever I think they felt [46:14] threatened by Nathan personally and [46:17] there had to be some type of narrative [46:19] that was created in order to [46:21] dramatically separate people from his [46:22] influence and so after that meeting I [46:25] was encouraged by leadership to stop [46:28] communication with my parents because [46:30] that was confusing me and I was [46:32] encouraged to not communicate with [46:33] Nathan or Mindy Sanford at all [46:37] >> after meeting with Jeremiah and Morgan. [46:39] I ran to the bathroom in the other [46:42] building and I laid on the tile floor [46:43] and had a 45minute long panic attack. [46:46] Um, I was so horribly disregulated and [46:50] confused and honestly traumatized of [46:54] like trying to process through what [46:55] they're saying about Nathan, trying to [46:57] process through I guess I don't hear [46:58] from God. And in the same turn, deep [47:01] deep down, I felt trapped. I felt [47:03] trapped by leaders of just like I can't [47:06] discern when my timeline at altar is up. [47:08] The Lord apparently only Jeremiah knows [47:11] when my timeline is up. [47:12] >> So the people that you felt safe around [47:15] initially, your parents, they're being [47:18] removed. Then you meet Nathan and Mindy [47:20] and you feel safe around them, they're [47:23] being slandered. And the people that you [47:25] don't feel safe around that every time [47:26] you're around them there is anxiety and [47:28] stress. You're being gaslit by them [47:31] telling them that you don't hear from [47:32] God and you need to stay with us. [47:35] >> 100%. Exactly. Yeah. Everyone every and [47:37] I think I said this earlier, but [47:39] everyone that wasn't in the leadership [47:42] circle of the altar was not safe. I was [47:45] even having dreams at the time where I [47:47] was in this house and like there were [47:49] alligators outside and they were [47:51] charging at me and attacking me and as [47:54] long as I was in the house, I was safe. [47:55] I would process these dreams with, you [47:58] know, different leadership or even with [47:59] Jeremiah Morgan um themselves and their [48:02] interpretations of the dreams were as [48:04] long as I stayed inside of the altar, as [48:06] long as I stayed inside the church, I [48:07] was sick. But anything outside um was [48:10] impacting me, which going back honestly [48:13] like a church is not a home. I believe [48:16] that was symbolic of my parents' house [48:17] that the Lord was safe [48:18] >> absolutely [48:19] >> that I was safe within the parent within [48:21] the covering of my parents' home and [48:23] that everywhere outside of that um there [48:26] were some highlevel you know demonic [48:28] things operating and really trying to [48:30] harm me and attack me. Yeah, that that's [48:33] the common sense interpretation. And [48:35] then too, [48:37] >> and and Ron, you're hearing this I'm [48:39] hearing this dream for the first time [48:41] like as she's sharing it right now [48:43] because when when Madison had the [48:45] meeting with Jeremiah and told her about [48:47] his dream, her dream and he said it was [48:49] demonic. We were waiting for her call [48:52] that the meeting was over and hours went [48:55] by, no phone call. Finally that [48:57] afternoon, I called her. I'm like, [49:00] "Well, h how did it go?" And she said, [49:02] "Well, Jeremiah said, "My dream was [49:04] demonic and that there would be a time [49:07] that he would release me, but that time [49:08] wasn't now." And Ron, I cannot describe [49:11] to you what happened inside of me. I [49:14] death. It was death. [49:15] >> And it and it was a little bit after [49:17] that, just a few days after that, [49:19] Madison called me and he says, "Dad, I [49:21] need to share what's going on with you." [49:23] And and I asked her, "Do you want me to [49:26] listen? You want feedback as well?" She [49:28] said, "Please, I need your feedback as [49:30] well." So she explained what had [49:32] happened between Jeremiah and Nathan and [49:35] all of that. I said, "So let me talk to [49:38] you as your father now." I said, "The [49:39] reason why this is so significant, [49:41] sweetie, is because I know your heart [49:43] and I know it's very important and how [49:45] you were raised for you to walk [49:48] barrierfree, lifegiving with the people [49:51] in your life." So she went back and [49:54] basically talked with Chad and with [49:56] Jeremiah the next day. She told them [49:58] about our conversation and their [50:00] response was, "You don't need to be [50:02] talking to your parents anymore. You [50:04] don't need to be talking to Nathan [50:06] anymore." [50:06] >> And it may not have been said that [50:08] harshly, but it was couched in all of [50:11] these conversations are opening you up [50:13] to confusion, Madison. Yeah. [50:15] >> So, for the sake of your own health, for [50:18] the sake of your own, you know, peace, [50:20] limit who you're talking to. So, it it [50:23] was I'm sure it wasn't quite that blunt. [50:25] That was the And let me from that point [50:28] forward, it was months [50:32] before we ever heard a word from our [50:36] daughter again. [50:37] >> Wow. [50:38] >> And it was from that point forward that [50:40] we lost any influence. [50:41] >> Yes. Like our voice at all. From that [50:44] point forward, April like 2023, [50:46] midappril, mid mid 2023, our voice of [50:49] counsel were it from 23 into 24 for us [50:54] >> was an incredibly difficult time. So [50:58] when this happened and our son Preston [51:00] left, he thought Madison was leaving [51:03] too. So when he left and she didn't [51:06] leave, it was very significantly very [51:08] very much impacted their relationship. [51:10] Then you have our son Mason who's trying [51:13] to make sense of what's happening in his [51:15] family. He's he's in his senior year and [51:17] right out of school. It was awful. That [51:20] year alone, 2024, we spent thousands [51:24] almost $6,000 in therapy for ourselves, [51:27] for each one of our children, and I [51:29] would spend it again. We were just [51:31] trying to understand what had happened [51:32] to us and what had happened to our [51:34] family. [51:35] >> Yeah. [51:35] >> And even with all of that, we we [51:37] couldn't find our way back. So Billy, is [51:39] it around that time that you wrote a [51:41] letter to Jeremiah? [51:43] >> Yes. So I I had talked with Jeremiah [51:46] just privately about a couple of issues [51:48] and then this was in our when we talked [51:52] when in the initial stage of our [51:54] relationship and then we had that set [51:56] down with him and Morgan. But there was [51:58] a period of time once all this started [52:00] unfolding I wasn't connecting well with [52:02] my daughter now and I was really [52:04] frustrated. So when these months took [52:07] place, finally I'm like, "Okay, I've [52:09] just got to get down." I spent a solid [52:11] week. And when I say solid week, I don't [52:13] know how many hours I poured into this [52:15] letter, but it was basically like a five [52:18] and a half, six page letter outlining [52:20] what had taken place in a way of this is [52:23] what happened. This is what you said, [52:25] this is what you did according to what [52:28] I've seen or this is what my daughter [52:30] said. This is what we have real a real [52:32] challenge with. So yeah, I sent that to [52:36] him and for how many weeks? [52:38] >> I think it was three weeks later, [52:40] Jeremiah responded back to us. Now, when [52:42] Billy sent that letter, he also sent it [52:44] via email. Michael Brown saw it as [52:46] Jeremiah's overseer and Bob Gladstone [52:50] because this is around that same time [52:52] where local leadership is confronting [52:54] Jeremiah on other things. Yeah. [52:56] >> Um and we were invited, Billy was [52:59] invited to be part of that [53:00] confrontation. And the only reason he [53:02] did not do it was because Madison was [53:04] still on staff and the relationship [53:06] fragile. We did not know how that would [53:08] go down. We didn't want to do anything [53:09] to make it worse. But Jeremiah did [53:11] respond to us via email back to everyone [53:15] about 3 weeks later. It was maybe four [53:18] paragraphs. We did. We had requested to [53:20] sit down with a neutral third party to [53:22] help us get to reconciliation. [53:24] and said, "Unfortunately, we don't see [53:27] fruit or the benefit of answering each [53:29] one of your points because we see them [53:30] so differently. Rest is love for [53:32] Madison." Probably the line in the [53:34] response that was a bit of a gut punch. [53:37] He said, "From everything Madison has [53:39] shared with us, if you would have simply [53:41] blessed her decision to serve with us at [53:43] the Ark, there would be nothing to get [53:45] in the way of her relationship with [53:46] you." So, all that our family had been [53:48] through was blamed on us. [53:50] >> Yep. Yeah. And that was [53:52] >> I also I also say he wrote over the last [53:55] two years we have watched Madison [53:57] blossom grow in emotional and spiritual [53:58] maturity and are so proud of her. It is [54:01] a true honor and privilege to watch the [54:03] Holy Spirit use her in incredible ways. [54:05] And I'm sure we can all agree that [54:06] Madison is an amazing young woman full [54:09] of integrity, humility, and passion for [54:11] Jesus. The concern here is that she is [54:14] suffering. She is, you know, the way he [54:16] writes that is if life is perfect for [54:18] Madison, but it's getting worse and [54:20] worse. At least up until this point in [54:22] the story, from the time she has joined [54:24] with with Jeremiah and Morgan and now [54:28] the the alter life is getting harder and [54:31] harder. She's going to doctors. So maybe [54:34] she is growing. Maybe she is maturing in [54:36] that part. Yeah, I I will agree with [54:38] that. But she is not happy. She's not [54:40] enjoying life. But he's not telling you [54:42] that. [54:42] >> No. Yeah. No. I I I saw three different [54:45] doctors. No one was able to help. We [54:48] probably within the first 2 to 3 years [54:50] easily spent about $10,000 in in in [54:53] different forms of, you know, [54:56] supplements, doctor's, appointments, lab [54:57] tests, just trying to figure out what's [54:59] going on, you know. So $10,000 in in [55:02] health, $6,000 in therapy. Like it's [55:04] been an expensive last few years. [55:07] >> In this letter that you sent, the [55:08] initial letter, you're asking for a [55:11] meeting with a third party mediator, and [55:13] he is saying, "No, we're not going to do [55:15] that. We don't see a need for that. So, [55:18] your daughter who is in her early 20s [55:20] has left your covering. She's left your [55:23] church. She's gone to work for them. [55:25] Now, they've told her, "Don't talk to [55:27] your parents anymore." And yet, he [55:29] doesn't see the need for a third party [55:32] to come in and and try and bring some [55:34] some I don't want to say reconciliation, [55:36] some understanding into what in the [55:38] world are they doing to your daughter. [55:40] Um, you guys are super patient in this [55:43] situation. And I know your hearts were [55:45] broken during this time, but he's acting [55:47] like he's the protector when from [55:50] everything I can see, he's the root [55:52] issue. [55:52] >> Yeah. For the first first year and a [55:55] half or so, we didn't even share any of [55:56] this with our elders at our church [55:58] because we were still trying to get over [56:01] this, you know, the benefit of the [56:03] doubt. We were we were trying to wade [56:05] through, have we done something wrong? [56:07] We didn't we didn't have clarity about [56:10] this issue. By the time we wrote that [56:12] letter, there was more clarity, but I I [56:15] want to say, and I believe my wife will [56:17] will chime right in, the morning that we [56:21] received Jeremiah's response basically [56:24] saying, "No, I'm not going to do the [56:26] Matthew 18 process with you." Um, we [56:28] were at a conference and there was we [56:32] were about to go into lunch and there [56:34] was this guy on stage, a prophetic voice [56:37] basically saying, you know, before we go [56:39] to lunch, I just there's a guy right [56:41] over here and he started pointing [56:43] towards me. I was so I did not want to [56:46] be pointed out. [56:47] >> I'm like prophetic word. [56:50] >> No, that's the absolute last thing that [56:53] I wanted. But I I was looking around. He [56:55] said, "No, the one that's looking [56:56] around." He said you and basically g he [56:59] gave a prophetic word m I just would [57:02] like to read it. He said to my husband I [57:04] see the Lord beginning to reccalibrate [57:06] you right now. I see a young lady the [57:09] Lord bringing life, liberty and [57:11] revelation. Eyes opening and it is well [57:14] and God is taking care of you right now [57:16] in Jesus name. This was August um the [57:20] 2nd 2024. [57:22] >> Yes. But we don't we don't want to get [57:23] too far ahead of ourselves yet. [57:25] >> Yes. Yes. Yeah, [57:27] >> spoiler alert. They are reconciled. [57:28] They're sitting on the couch together. [57:30] But this is now late summer 2024. And [57:34] and this is when, if I remember [57:36] correctly, this is when Bob Gladstone [57:37] and others are having these meetings [57:40] with Jeremiah. Dr. Brown is defending [57:42] Jeremiah, which you know, based on [57:44] everything you told me, I don't [57:45] understand how. So take take me further [57:47] in this story. [57:48] >> Yeah. So I just want to clarify. We did [57:51] go and talk with Dr. Michael Brown, who [57:53] was seen as Jeremiah's overseer in this [57:55] process. So, we went to his office. It [57:58] was him and his wife Nancy. The four of [58:00] us sat down together and we started like [58:03] I started with you. We basically [58:05] explained, we had him over for dinner. [58:07] Family came in. We had a wonderful time. [58:09] The next day, he calls our daughter, [58:11] says, "You're the reason why we moved [58:13] here." Um, and immediately when we said [58:16] that, Nancy kind of chimed in and said, [58:18] "Michael Brown's wife." and said, "Well, [58:21] how do you know Madison's telling the [58:22] truth?" I'm like I was honestly just [58:24] kind of shocked like [58:27] >> and I I said, "Well, because she's [58:29] continued to say that and her story [58:30] hasn't changed and it's been three or [58:32] four years now and she's upset with [58:34] >> they took her into employment and moved [58:38] her out of her house, cut her off from [58:39] her family. So, it would seem that uh [58:41] that is confirmed." Obviously, from the [58:44] very get-go, we were like, we felt like, [58:46] okay, they're listening to us, but [58:48] they're already on Jeremiah's side. [58:50] That's why when I wrote the letter, I'm [58:52] like, okay, we need a neutral. We need a [58:54] third party. And Dr. Brown and I went [58:57] back and forth on text messages, him [58:59] wanting to be the third party. And I'm [59:01] like, Dr. Brown. Respectfully, I need [59:04] somebody in this in this situation that [59:07] I don't know and that you don't know and [59:09] that Jeremiah doesn't know, but who's [59:11] experienced at doing something like this [59:13] >> because I don't want to hit against this [59:16] buddy system. [59:17] >> Wow. So, Madison, you continue. You've [59:19] now you're now not talking to your [59:21] parents and you are working at the Ark [59:24] or rather the alter. Does anything get [59:26] better? [59:27] >> No. My health continued to decline. It [59:29] would eb and flow. But even in the eb [59:31] and flow, it wasn't like, "Oh, I'm [59:33] getting better. Just kidding. I'm going [59:34] back." Like, it just it continued to to [59:36] decline. Chad had been in leadership for [59:38] the last few months since Nathan left. [59:40] And so Jeremiah kind of came back in and [59:42] take took control and charge over [59:44] everything again. And so Jeremiah was [59:46] leading staff meetings and I began to, [59:48] you know, in these staff meetings, you [59:50] know, there was a measure of excitement [59:51] for me, you know, in the meeting and [59:53] different things like that. And we would [59:54] go into staff meetings and Jeremiah [59:56] would start talking and I would start [59:57] going into panic attacks. I would leave [60:00] the staff meeting, go into the bathroom [60:01] and cry and shake sometimes for 30, 45 [60:04] minutes, an hour at a time. Morgan [60:06] Morgan was aware of this. Like I would I [60:08] would text her and share with her what [60:09] was going on. Um like through all of my [60:12] health, you know, things that I had [60:14] going on, Morgan and Jeremiah were very [60:16] aware cuz I was trying to find relief, [60:20] but they didn't they didn't know how to [60:21] help me. Uh it was just the bottom line. [60:23] >> Yeah. So, um, I had met Madison right [60:26] away when I moved, uh, to North [60:28] Carolina, but I'm the oldest son of Chad [60:31] and Christa Deiri, who are others at the [60:33] altar. At least my dad is. And yeah, so [60:36] I had gotten close to Billy and Dana and [60:39] their family like right away when we [60:40] first moved here. I remember like being [60:42] invited to their house several times and [60:44] being close friends or good friends with [60:46] her younger brothers. Um, we would work [60:48] together or just spend time here at [60:50] their h home hanging out. Um yeah, [60:52] didn't really know too much behind the [60:55] scenes about all the other stuff. Um [60:58] yeah, that's that was how we got [61:00] connected. Uh through being on staff at [61:01] the church and being involved at the [61:03] altar, really continue to grow close to [61:05] Madison as a friend. Um now that at this [61:09] point, I really feel like she's [61:10] obviously now we're married, a big [61:12] reason why the Lord brought me out here [61:14] to North Carolina. We had always had a [61:16] really good friendship and um at a [61:18] certain point I was offered a job to be [61:20] on stack there and we got closer at that [61:22] time too eventually started dating and [61:25] when all this started happening in 2024 [61:28] we were we were just month a couple of [61:30] months into our dating relationship at [61:32] the time. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, when [61:35] my parents moved down here in the fall [61:36] of 21, I was told by them specifically [61:40] that they there was a whole plan the [61:43] whole time to start a church in the [61:45] future. And this is before the the [61:47] building that they're in now is ever [61:48] given to them. And so, the narrative [61:50] that was publicly spoken is that um they [61:53] weren't they were not the Lord told them [61:55] not to start a church. But then when the [61:57] Lord when the people who gave them the [61:58] building that they're in now gave them [62:00] this building for free then it was clear [62:02] okay the Lord is saying let's start a [62:04] church and really behind the scenes they [62:06] were planning on starting a church that [62:07] whole time and it was stuff that I was [62:09] told to me before the building was ever [62:11] so is it fair to say you know Jeremiah [62:14] comes to Charlotte and he says God told [62:16] me not to plant a church he becomes a [62:18] member or begins to go to Refuge church [62:20] starts holding monthly revival meetings [62:23] but I I think you said it earlier Josiah [62:26] that when he was given a building, he [62:28] said that's when the Lord told him to [62:30] start a church. But you're saying no, he [62:31] actually had been planning that for some [62:33] time before then. [62:34] >> Yeah, he definitely had been planning [62:35] that sometime before. I remember as [62:37] early as August or September of 2021, my [62:40] parents would tell me about inner [62:42] conversations that they would have with [62:43] Jeremiah about the future plans of [62:45] starting a church before the building [62:47] was ever given. [62:48] >> Right? And again, I just want to be [62:49] clear to everyone. Uh, everyone was told [62:52] when the building was given that this [62:54] was God saying are to plant a church [62:57] when in fact this was in their hearts [63:00] before then? [63:01] >> Yes. Much longer. [63:02] >> So Dana and Billy, you know, as pastors [63:05] in the refuge system, did Jeremiah end [63:08] up taking people from that congregation [63:11] to start this new church? [63:12] >> Yes. Several people left the Refuge [63:15] Canapapolis campus, a few from our [63:17] campus, the Refuge Salsbury. Um, and it [63:20] was there had been kind of this growing [63:23] tension between the altar and the [63:26] refuge. Not so much on the refuge part [63:28] as from what but Jeremiah's messaging [63:31] was that there were religious [63:34] strongholds in the region. And really it [63:36] was like they were praying and mandating [63:39] that these religious spirits come down. [63:42] But some of his messaging implied that [63:46] it was churches like the refuge and [63:49] around that were were doing this. And so [63:51] that created tension and division. And [63:55] so it was really fertile ground for [63:58] people to want to buy into this larger [64:01] vision. This better I, you know, this [64:04] something better, something greater. [64:06] >> And it was it was icky. everyone else [64:10] who was told that they were planning on [64:11] starting a church, that Jeremiah was [64:13] planning on starting a church, we were [64:14] all told, hey, don't say anything. Don't [64:16] tell anyone, but Jeremiah is planning a [64:18] church. And so when the building when it [64:20] got announced, hey, we've been given [64:21] this building. Everyone's telling me [64:23] like, oh my gosh, this is what a [64:24] surprise. And I was like, this isn't a [64:26] surprise. I've known about this for like [64:27] six months at least. [64:29] >> Yeah. So the two things that I [64:31] communicated with Jeremiah in this [64:33] process once I started hearing what his [64:36] message was on the altar nights at the [64:39] refuge which Pastor J Stewart gave him [64:42] one night a month for 6 months free of [64:45] charge to come in and hold his meetings [64:47] and it was on the platform that he was [64:49] insinuating like Dana was saying he [64:51] wouldn't say directly the refugee church [64:53] he's much smarter than that um but he [64:56] would say things like you know churches [64:58] with you know where you have multiple [65:00] services and things are on a clock and [65:02] you got to move out and you um which [65:06] described what the refuge was doing. So [65:08] I went to him and I'm like, "Bro, [65:11] say that recognize you're insinuating [65:13] that's what the the refuge is doing." [65:16] And then he would go online and [65:18] distinguish between Saul and David and [65:20] how basically Saul was mistreating [65:22] David. I'm like, "So behind the scenes, [65:25] who who's talking with you? like who's [65:27] doing who's being saw in your light? He [65:30] said, "Look, no one in particular." I'm [65:32] like, "Then why are you why are you [65:34] portraying it on Facebook as though [65:37] there is someone?" So that those two [65:39] things were very confusing. So people [65:42] were picking up on that and they were [65:44] thinking that he was referring to the [65:46] senior pastor at the Refuge Church as [65:49] Saul and he was David. He wouldn't use [65:52] those names, but that's what people were [65:54] thinking. No one was saying that out [65:56] loud. No one was saying that out loud. [65:58] That's why I'm like I was picking up on [66:00] it and that's why I asked him privately [66:02] and he was like, "No, I'm I'm not saying [66:04] anyone in particular." He says, "If they [66:06] take it personal, that's on them." So [66:08] >> yeah, he would absolutely deny that. And [66:11] that's really hard to prove, but our [66:13] perception was there was enough language [66:16] going on that it was creating an us and [66:20] them atmosphere. I think the other thing [66:22] in terms of relationship with pastors in [66:24] the area that's significant to realize I [66:27] went to him one day we were in his [66:28] office and basically I said so Jeremia [66:32] recognize you know there are several [66:33] churches represented in this first year [66:35] of your ministry school but the Salsbury [66:38] campus which is where we pastored of the [66:40] refuge church there probably and I I [66:42] said there are probably more people from [66:44] this small campus than from any other [66:46] church including the main campus from [66:48] Canapa. I said, "Here's my question to [66:51] you. When these people graduate in a [66:53] year from this ministry school as a [66:55] pastor, how do I steward and leverage [66:58] like what they're getting here? How can [67:00] we steward that best in our local [67:02] church? Because this is all for the goal [67:05] of unifying and strengthening the the [67:07] local church body." And he says, "I [67:09] don't have time for that." I'm like, [67:10] "What do you mean?" He said, "Yeah, to [67:12] clarify that to pastors, I don't have I [67:14] don't have time for that." I said, [67:15] "Well, what if you just delegate that to [67:17] somebody?" and his same response. I [67:19] don't have time for that. So that was [67:22] disappointing but still in that process [67:25] I didn't have you know the I don't know [67:27] fortitude or whatever to say okay this [67:29] is just wrong because I still believe [67:31] okay this is a good thing. We had a lot [67:33] of people from our campus at the church [67:35] and but initially it was confusing for [67:39] being a local pastor and experiencing [67:41] this this this process. [67:44] >> So that that was years before. Now we're [67:46] going to catch back up. It's the end of [67:48] the summer 2024. [67:51] Madison, take us uh along in the story. [67:53] How are you doing healthwise at that [67:55] time? I know that you were having some [67:57] uh spiritual issues as well. [68:00] >> Yeah. Yeah. So, the demonic torment [68:03] dreams that I would and encounters and [68:05] experiences within the church, those [68:07] continued. And health-wise, those, you [68:10] know, there was a continued decline [68:12] there as well. But with the pace of the [68:15] environment, you know, I just kind of [68:16] kept going. you don't really have time [68:18] to take, you know, personal inventory of [68:20] what's going on. You kind of just have [68:22] to keep up with, you know, whatever's on [68:24] the schedule. Chad and Christa were set [68:26] as elders and as, you know, the pastors. [68:28] So, this really was Chad and Christa's [68:30] ministry to run and to do run with and [68:33] to do what, you know, they had in their [68:34] hearts. And then by the time that this [68:36] 2-year anniversary rolls around, [68:38] everything was merged and it was back in [68:41] the hands of Jeremiah to kind of take [68:43] over. As a staff member personally that [68:45] was incredibly there was part of me that [68:47] was excited at the time and then in the [68:49] same turn it was incredibly hard to [68:51] watch simply because you know Chad was [68:54] removed from his place of influence and [68:57] authority and watching that letting go [69:00] and grieving process for him as his [69:01] friend was incredibly devastating. We [69:03] have these staff meetings and continue [69:05] to move forward and Jeremiah is running [69:08] these staff meetings. Well, a few staff [69:10] meetings in, I start to have panic [69:12] attacks. In these panic attacks, [69:14] Jeremiah would share different things or [69:16] say different things. And I couldn't [69:17] really pinpoint what was causing the [69:20] panic attacks. The only thing I the only [69:22] common thread I could pick up on is that [69:24] it was coming from things that Jeremiah [69:26] would say or do or share. And I would [69:29] get up out of staff meeting, go to the [69:30] bathroom, and hysterically cry, shake, [69:34] and yeah, that was a whole experience [69:37] which I informed Morgan in on, and [69:39] Jeremiah, I believe, was aware to degree [69:41] as well. But, you know, again, there [69:44] just wasn't a lot of understanding as to [69:47] how to help me um in what I was [69:50] navigating. And so I do want to share [69:52] during this time we had had a time where [69:55] Jeremiah was standing different staff [69:56] members up because with the merge we [69:58] were all trying to, you know, like get [69:59] to know each other and share them more [70:00] honestly and things like that. And I got [70:02] up and began to share my story of just [70:05] how I, you know, met Jeremiah Morgan, [70:07] how I got to be where I am. Um, really, [70:10] you know, cuz at the time I'm under the [70:12] narrative and understanding, the group [70:14] think, if you will, of my story with my [70:17] family. And so I'm just sharing from [70:19] that perspective, you know, what I've [70:20] had been told. I kind of got to the [70:22] parts, you know, where I cut off [70:24] relationship with my family and begin to [70:26] cry. It's just a highly emotional, you [70:29] know, situation that I'm communicating. [70:31] And I pretty much said, I have given up [70:35] everything to be here. It was incredibly [70:37] painful and challenging. And you know, [70:40] Jeremiah got up and there was a level of [70:43] applauding. Jeremiah really honored me [70:45] in front of the whole staff for how much [70:47] I've sacrificed and that as a church [70:49] they are benefici [70:53] uh you know the anointed and powerful [70:55] worship that comes in and Sunday in and [70:57] Sunday out and that they're grateful for [70:59] all that I've given up to be here. [71:00] >> You had also shared with me that you [71:03] were held up as an example to others [71:05] that there were I don't know eight [71:07] others that were being encouraged to [71:10] break off communication with their [71:11] family members. [71:12] >> Yes. So, I mean, other families started [71:14] to experience very similar patterns. And [71:17] I don't know the ins and outs of some of [71:18] these family stories, but the patterns [71:20] that I, you know, just began to pick up [71:23] was parents were having some [71:25] disagreements or caution or concern [71:27] around what they were experiencing with [71:29] their young adult kids. Very similar [71:30] process to my parents and releasing [71:32] adult children. And then whether it was [71:34] through the elder team or through [71:36] Jeremiah and these young adults were [71:39] basically shared with very similar to me [71:41] that their family was a hindrance to [71:44] them pursuing the the will of God. They [71:46] were being manipulative, controlling or [71:49] restricting. Uh and so I was kind of set [71:51] as this example of like if you have any [71:53] questions along this, you really should [71:54] talk to Madison, you know. And [71:56] >> but but at a certain point this is [71:58] starting to look like a cult. Maybe that [72:01] doctrine was okay. I don't know. But in [72:03] terms of the control that over people's [72:06] lives, suggesting that people aren't [72:07] hearing from God if it doesn't line up [72:09] with the narrative that of the church, [72:11] not you know, I will release you in the [72:14] future but not now kind of takes away [72:16] your agency over your own life. [72:18] >> 100%. [72:19] >> Yeah. So Ron, if I could interject, once [72:22] Madison really cut us and the [72:24] communication was, you know, via text [72:27] every now and then we would get together [72:29] for special occasions. We were spending [72:32] this money in counseling to to even just [72:34] attempt to build a bridge back to one [72:36] another. My husband and I met with [72:39] multiple therapists and I read all the [72:43] books and watched all the documentaries. [72:45] you know, months and months into this, [72:47] we had to sit with ourselves, my husband [72:49] and I, and say, "Okay, we've had five [72:52] mental health professionals say to us, [72:55] our daughter is in a high control [72:56] group." [72:58] And that means we can't communicate with [73:01] her like you normally would because [73:04] whatever you say against the leader is [73:07] very much twisted and it pushes them [73:09] deeper in because they have been [73:12] conditioned to see you on the outside as [73:16] unsafe but the inside is safe. And [73:19] Madison would even say that those words [73:22] she would say to us you guys are unsafe. [73:25] We were like, "What in the world?" I [73:28] remember one night we were here trying [73:30] to connect and she said, "You know, I'm [73:33] actually having a hard time remembering [73:35] anything good from my childhood." And I [73:38] was devastated. [73:39] >> Wow. [73:40] >> Her history is being rewritten because [73:43] that's just not true. [73:46] >> Let me read you a definition of a high [73:49] control group. A high control group, [73:51] often referred to as a cult, is an [73:53] organization or community that demands [73:55] absolute loyalty, restricting individual [73:58] autonomy through psychological [74:00] manipulation, social isolation, and [74:02] strict conformity. These groups use [74:04] manipulative tactics, behavioral [74:07] information, thought, and emotional [74:08] control to maintain power and limit free [74:12] choice. Now, of the several hundred [74:13] people that go there, I'm sure that is [74:15] not everybody's experience. I I imagine [74:17] I've never been there, but there's [74:19] probably people that go there every [74:20] Sunday and they're not their experience [74:22] is not a cult or high control, but for [74:24] some of you in that inner circle, would [74:27] you say it was [74:28] >> 100%. [74:29] >> Yes. [74:29] >> Yeah. And let me say to that, Ron, one [74:32] of the things that was very difficult [74:33] for us, Dana and I to process is that [74:36] just like you said, there are people and [74:39] were people whose experience was not [74:42] like ours. And it really took us a while [74:45] to recognize that two things can be true [74:48] at the same time. It can be one thing [74:51] for us and something totally different [74:53] from somebody else and it doesn't [74:55] diminish what we're going through. Um [74:58] and it doesn't necessarily invalidate [75:01] >> right [75:01] >> the other that good that someone else is [75:03] experiencing. [75:05] >> That was very confusing but [75:06] >> very confusing. [75:07] >> Um I'm glad ultimately we came to that [75:10] realization. [75:11] >> Yeah. I will say this, once we came to [75:13] the point of acceptance that this is our [75:15] reality, I had done the research. Your [75:18] average person stays in the cult eight [75:20] to nine years and then it takes several [75:22] years to recover. And so I really did [75:26] come to that place of acceptance. Okay, [75:28] we're four years in. Buckle up, keep the [75:30] door open. Just try to have a landing [75:33] pad for relationship at whatever degree [75:36] we can have. That was a very hard place [75:38] to finally arrive. But when I could get [75:41] there, I think I could begin to heal [75:43] emotionally myself. [75:44] >> In 2024, I think uh you received a [75:48] scripture that gave you hope. Explain [75:50] that to me. [75:51] >> I had felt the Lord invite me to spend [75:53] the night in the prayer room, our prayer [75:55] room at church. And so I went and I took [75:58] my Bible, I prayed, you know, I read [76:01] scripture, I worshiped, I did all the [76:04] things. And I was listening to something [76:07] and the person quoted a verse in Isaiah [76:10] and I asked the Lord I I I begged the [76:13] Lord. I said, "If I can have this verse [76:16] to be mine, my anchor, my word from you, [76:20] will you please have somebody say it to [76:23] me or send it to me directly and I will [76:26] receive it as if it's from you?" So that [76:28] was a Monday and 48 hours later, I got [76:31] up that Wednesday morning. We actually [76:33] had a pretty significant counseling [76:34] appointment set up with Madison and [76:36] Josiah. And I looked in my phone and a [76:39] friend of mine said, um, "Hey, this [76:43] verse popped up in my spirit today for [76:44] you. I knew I was supposed to send it to [76:46] you." And it was the verse that I had [76:49] asked the Lord for, and here's what it [76:50] is. Isaiah 49:20. But this is what the [76:53] Lord says. Even the captives of the [76:55] mighty will be taken away, and the [76:57] plunder of the tyrant will be retrieved. [76:59] For I will contend with those who [77:01] contend with you and your children I [77:03] will save. I wrote that verse. I put it [77:05] in my car. I put it in my kitchen [77:07] window. I put it on my bathroom window. [77:10] And I said, "And I will hold here, Lord, [77:12] until this comes to pass." [77:14] >> Wow. That's beautiful. So, you are [77:18] hanging on and now we're into the fall [77:20] of 2024. [77:22] What what's going on now? [77:23] >> So, you know, at the time I was meeting [77:25] with a counselor. I was meeting with the [77:28] boxes uh and I was meeting with a BWRT [77:32] specialist and that basically stands for [77:35] brainwave recursive therapy. I was [77:37] explaining to the boxes that I was [77:39] having some [77:40] >> just tell everybody who who who were the [77:42] boxes. [77:42] >> Yeah. Yeah. So Steven Lorine box they [77:44] attended the altar and at the time when [77:47] we were there they were life coaches. Uh [77:49] if you needed counseling all elder [77:51] leadership was sending you to the boxes. [77:53] They were like the church counselors. [77:56] Okay. [77:57] >> And they had come out from Bethl. So we [77:59] were able to bond over that because of [78:00] my season out at Bethl. And you know, I [78:02] really just I started meeting with [78:04] Lorraine and sharing some of these [78:06] experiences, dreams, and stuff that I [78:08] was having. And she was like, I really [78:09] think you would benefit from some form [78:10] of trauma therapy. And she recommended [78:12] to me BWRT. And so I started doing it. I [78:15] wish BWIT would have maybe had a little [78:17] bit more of a warning label, but um just [78:21] because my experience in it was pretty [78:23] intense. When you do it, you have to [78:24] commit to it for 6 weeks and you have to [78:26] do it back to back to back. If you leave [78:28] sessions too kind of far in between, it [78:31] could potentially trigger some physical [78:33] ab reactions, which I didn't know. And [78:35] so, you know, our family, fast forward [78:37] to Christmas time, our family goes to [78:40] Disney for Christmas, and you know, [78:42] tension is high. Of course, our family [78:44] loved each other and we had found some [78:45] form of communication, but it was just [78:47] incredibly hard still to be around each [78:49] other and to really like actually [78:50] communicate and enjoy being together, [78:52] which for all three of us and honestly [78:54] probably especially for the boys was [78:56] just so confusing because that had just [78:58] we had 21 plus years of that not being [79:00] the case. We go to Disney. We're going [79:03] throughout the parks and we sit down to [79:05] watch this fireworks show. And all of a [79:08] sudden, you know, the pain starts [79:09] surging more intensely throughout my [79:11] legs. And I can't feel my legs. They're [79:14] such horrific pain. And a thought [79:16] crosses through my mind. And the thought [79:18] was, I I want to tell mom that I'm in [79:21] pain, but if I but I can't because if I [79:23] do, she's going to blame my pain on [79:24] Jeremiah. And as soon as that thought [79:26] crossed through my mind, I kind of [79:28] collapsed into my mom's arms and started [79:31] crying pretty intensely and was just in [79:33] a horrific amount of pain and truly felt [79:36] paralyzed in in an emotional and [79:39] physical sense. So what I didn't know at [79:41] the time is I was having an ab reaction, [79:43] which is where the body responds to a [79:45] memory of a physical or emotional [79:48] trauma. And so my brothers are having to [79:51] carry me out of this epicenter up these [79:53] stairs in front of, you know, hundreds [79:54] of people. And then the Disney team ends [79:57] up giving us a wheelchair and I get [79:59] wheelchaired out of Disney by my family. [80:01] We're in the car and uh, you know, [80:03] driving back to the hotel. My brother [80:05] had to help me back, help walk me back [80:07] to my hotel room. It just was, [80:08] everything about it was very intense and [80:10] very scary. I had had, what I didn't [80:13] know at the time is I was experiencing [80:14] micro seizures at night, honestly. And I [80:17] don't blame this on anyone. I think it [80:19] was just in being in a highly spiritual [80:20] environment, I just assumed I was [80:22] encountering the Lord or something. [80:23] Honestly, when I would shake and have [80:26] these micro seizures, but come to find [80:27] out, they were genuine like medical [80:31] micro seizures. There was nothing [80:32] honestly very spiritual about them. I [80:35] end up going to meet with Lorraine. At [80:37] this point, I'm not I've not met with [80:39] the doctor. I'm just scared. I'm trying [80:42] to figure out what's happening to me. [80:45] And I went and met with them. I was [80:47] sharing what was going on at Disney. We [80:48] were catching up and what happened to me [80:50] physically. And I was sharing with her [80:51] that I feel like the Lord has told me [80:52] that I need to quit for health reasons [80:54] and I'm about to be like literally we [80:57] were it was December. We were getting [80:59] married in March. I'm sitting here [81:00] thinking like my health can't tank now. [81:02] Like I I want to be healthy and be able [81:04] to walk down the aisle like all of these [81:06] things. I was doing that and kind of in [81:08] tandem I was really wrestling through [81:10] different things within just as a staff [81:12] member things that I was seeing that [81:14] Jeremiah would be preaching from the [81:15] platform or sharing publicly and I was [81:18] just wrestling and processing through [81:20] those things with her. One of those [81:21] things, you know, was Jeremiah's on [81:23] stage talking about how these [81:24] conferences and events are for people [81:26] and would kind of really encourage [81:28] people to invite their friends. This is [81:31] for, you know, the region and put a [81:33] strong emphasis on these things. I mean, [81:36] I'm leading worship for these events. I [81:37] I'm literally seeing like on the stage, [81:39] I'm watching people get ministered to, [81:40] and I'm like, I'm sorry, but I don't see [81:43] how any of these services are for [81:44] people. Like, I don't see long-term [81:47] impactful sustainable change and [81:50] transformation in people's lives. And I [81:51] was just processing through that with [81:53] Lorraine and some other things as well. [81:55] And Lorraine's response to me was first [81:57] off, she goes and basically explains the [81:59] story and paradigm where basically she [82:02] shares that these issues that I'm [82:04] wrestling with with Jeremiah aren't [82:07] issues with Jeremiah. They're internal [82:08] issues with me, [82:10] >> of course, [82:12] >> and that the Lord is inviting me in on a [82:14] refining process and the Lord is using [82:16] Jeremiah and the things that he's [82:17] sharing from the platform to refine [82:19] these things out of me. Highly [82:21] confusing, I will just say. And then in [82:23] in conjunction with that, she's like, [82:24] "If you're asking my opinion, I don't [82:26] think you should quit. I think you need [82:27] to hang in there and I think you need to [82:30] keep going and not forfeit the process [82:32] of refining that the Lord has you in." [82:35] So again, large spiritual language. It's [82:37] almost like there was everyone walks [82:39] around with this fear that they're going [82:41] to miss the call of God in some way, [82:43] shape, or form. [82:44] >> Yeah. [82:45] >> And because everything is so intensely [82:47] spiritual, very high pressure. So, I'm [82:49] just sitting there and I'm like, well, [82:50] you know, I guess I just need to keep [82:53] going cuz this is a me issue. So, I left [82:55] these meetings feeling horribly [82:57] confused. Like, this was 4 and 1/2 years [82:59] of me wrestling and then my wrestles [83:01] getting spun on me. [83:02] >> Yeah. If you let let me just let me just [83:04] mention if you're in a four-year battle, [83:07] you've left your family, you've left [83:08] your parents, and nothing's getting [83:10] better, everything's getting worse, and [83:12] the advice is don't give up. Sometimes [83:14] you do need to give up. Sometimes you [83:16] you need to say, you know what, this I [83:17] have hit my head against this wall and [83:20] the wall's not moving, so maybe I just [83:22] need to go through that door over there. [83:23] And also, let me mention that, you know, [83:25] having some experience with the [83:27] investigation into Mike Bickl and IHOP [83:29] KC, that was a similar theme. You know, [83:33] when people would want to leave, all [83:34] right, you can go, but you know, the [83:36] breakthrough is right around the corner. [83:38] You know, people were were literally [83:40] couldn't pay their bills. And they were [83:41] saying, "Yeah, but the millionaires are [83:43] coming." We had a prophecy that the [83:44] millionaires or the billionaires, the [83:46] people with the money are coming and [83:48] people didn't go to college. People [83:50] sacrificed, you know, learning a skill [83:53] and uh and it is it's certainly a noble [83:55] thing to give yourself to to prayer, but [83:56] it was there was a manipulation [83:59] >> 100% [83:59] >> that you would fear that if you left, [84:02] you were missing God or you were [84:04] settling for second best. And you know [84:06] what? I just the older I get, the more I [84:09] learn about God is he's a bit more chill [84:12] than that. That he is not stressing out [84:15] over, oh no, you made the wrong [84:17] decision. You're you're is God not [84:19] stronger than that? Is his will is his [84:21] ability so weak that you know he cares [84:24] for us. He loves us. So if you're in [84:26] that type of environment, anybody [84:28] anybody watching, you know, and people [84:30] are just telling you, you know, don't [84:32] leave because you're going to miss God, [84:33] relax, okay? I'm sorry. and to that's [84:36] kind of like this the experience that I [84:38] was having um in two separate occasions [84:40] as well where I had known that the Lord [84:43] was telling me it was time to to leave [84:45] on two separate times about like a year [84:47] and a half apart and both times it was [84:50] told like don't miss the call of God in [84:52] your life like are you really sure [84:53] you're hearing from the Lord like just [84:55] throwing so much doubt into my ability [84:57] to hear from from God on two separate [84:59] occasions right before speaking to it [85:01] with them I knew 100% Lord is saying [85:03] it's time to transition and seek the [85:05] other things that the Lord I feel like [85:07] had put on my heart um versus like being [85:09] construction instead of being there at [85:11] the church and working at the church. [85:13] >> Yeah. And [85:13] >> so it was really a a strong pattern. And [85:15] I have other friends who would say that [85:17] they had the same pattern happen to them [85:19] where it's like you try to transition [85:21] and um you know do something else that [85:23] the Lord is telling you to do and they [85:26] strongly question your ability to hear [85:27] from God on that issue and say that you [85:29] don't want to miss the call of God on [85:31] your life. Um yes by leaving [85:33] >> and even your motives and leaving. [85:35] There's a strong question put on your [85:37] motives. Are you offended? How's your [85:39] heart with God doing? Like it's like and [85:41] so you just kind of leave and you're [85:43] like me and God are great. offense [85:46] excuse or explanation is used quite a [85:48] bit. You know, are you offended? You [85:50] know, there are you picking up somebody [85:51] else? Don't you don't want to carry [85:53] somebody else's offense or take up [85:54] somebody else's offense. I haven't found [85:56] that scripture in the Bible. I think [85:57] sometimes we are to take up other [85:59] people's offense and fight for them, [86:01] particularly if they're weak and [86:02] vulnerable and they need someone to to [86:04] give voice to them. So, this whole idea [86:07] of, you know, you've picked up [86:08] somebody's offense or you're offended, [86:09] you can look at something and say, "That [86:12] is wrong. I forgive you. I'm not walking [86:14] in bitterness, but I I'm out of here. [86:16] I'm going to move on. And and then that [86:18] can be twisted to you're offended or [86:20] you're not forgiving or you're bitter. [86:22] >> Yeah. 100% 100%. [86:24] >> Lorraine Box encourages you not to give [86:26] up, to press in. This is for your [86:28] spiritual breakthrough and you're [86:29] growing through this and God's using [86:31] Jeremiah to build, I don't know, [86:33] character in you. But this comes to a [86:35] head a few months later. What happens? [86:37] There's this meeting and you have a [86:39] extreme physical reaction. One day I was [86:41] in a staff meeting and um I I got [86:45] triggered. So it felt like an onset of a [86:46] panic attack. So I'm going to the [86:48] bathroom like I always, you know, like I [86:50] usually did. And so I noticed though [86:54] while I was in the bathroom that my [86:55] muscles were constricting and so like my [86:57] hands would coil up. They call them like [86:59] chicken claws. And it scared me. I [87:02] started losing mobility in my muscles [87:04] and was really confused as to what was [87:06] going on. So I'm crying, scared. I [87:08] walked around the building to get to my [87:10] office and then by the time I got to my [87:11] office, I laid down on the ground [87:13] because my legs were going weak. Felt [87:16] like the onset now of a paralysis [87:18] episode. And I laid on the ground in the [87:20] fetal position and began to go in and [87:22] out of large seizures for about an hour [87:25] and a half by myself in the office. [87:27] >> So, this began in a staff meeting, [87:29] right? And is anybody checking on you? [87:31] >> Yeah, Morgan was texting me. Another [87:33] staff member was texting me. and I'm [87:36] able to text them every now and then, [87:38] you know, back and forth. But I felt [87:39] really torn internally, like I was [87:42] scared, alone, and needed help. But for [87:44] whatever reason, I didn't want any of [87:46] them to help me. And I couldn't [87:47] understand why I was feeling that way. I [87:49] wanted my parents. I wanted my husband, [87:51] but I didn't want anyone from Alter. I [87:53] didn't want any staff. That thought [87:55] alone really scared me, and I didn't [87:56] quite understand it. So Morgan asked if [87:58] she can come in and pray for me. And so [88:00] I said, "Yeah." Uh, so she came in. Two [88:02] of the elders came in. another staff [88:05] member and Jeremiah came in. [88:07] >> I didn't know that was what was gonna [88:09] happen. And they all come in and they go [88:11] to start praying. Well, as soon as [88:13] Jeremiah walks into the door, my seizure [88:15] went from like a level five to like a [88:16] level 50. Just like rapidly escalated. [88:20] And I didn't know why. Even that scared [88:22] me. I'm like, what? Why? What is going [88:24] on? Morgan gets down and goes to pray [88:26] for me. I'm like shying away from her [88:28] putting her hand on me. what I was [88:30] experiencing physically was so [88:32] incredibly confusing. But I was in uh [88:35] just a horrific amount of pain. A [88:37] horrific amount of pain. And what I know [88:39] now is my body was because my heart and [88:42] mind couldn't say what I was actually [88:44] feeling and sensing. My body was forcing [88:47] me to feel how unsafe I felt underneath [88:49] the Johnson's leadership. And that was [88:51] hard to admit. I wouldn't come to find [88:52] that out until later on. So this seizure [88:55] kind of lasts for maybe an hour, maybe [88:58] less. I can't really remember. No one [88:59] calls the ambulance. No one calls my [89:02] parents to let them know [89:04] >> me. [89:04] >> And at the time, I didn't know this, but [89:06] no one called Josiah initially. Didn't [89:08] end up calling him until later on. Uh, [89:11] and he was 2 and 1 half hours away at a [89:13] job site. And so, my father-in-law and [89:16] sister-in-law end up, you know, kind of [89:18] helping me get up and walking me to my [89:20] car. And I'll never forget this. I was [89:22] walking out into the concourse and [89:24] Jeremiah and a few different staff [89:25] members were out there and they were [89:28] kind of just making jokes. It was like [89:30] business as usual. As a staff member in [89:32] the middle of the health crisis, I [89:34] remember thinking, I'm not safe here. No [89:36] one is taking this seriously. [89:39] >> Yeah. What what is concerning to me is [89:41] that from what I understand, the the [89:43] church is experienced in deliverance. At [89:46] least to them, it must have looked like [89:48] you were going through some sort of [89:49] demonic attack. I think what you said [89:51] makes much more sense that the doctor [89:53] explained to you that you you couldn't [89:55] say what you were feeling, which is you [89:57] you folks aren't safe for me. You've [89:59] pulled me out of my home and the more I [90:02] get closer to you, the worse things get. [90:04] You couldn't formulate that. So, your [90:06] body is overriding and saying, "Well, [90:09] we're we're going to we're going to [90:10] react to this situation." Yeah. But he [90:13] did have the, you know, he did tell you [90:15] that he, I guess it was a few years [90:16] before that he he wasn't a big fan of [90:18] the diagnosis that the doctor had given [90:20] you. But but here in this situation, he [90:22] had nothing to offer you. [90:24] >> Exactly. And that really began to become [90:26] a pattern, you know, with the demonic [90:27] torment that I was experiencing. I I [90:29] would bring these demonic encounters to [90:31] them. I would bring to them my health [90:32] issues. You know, I guess I can [90:34] understand from a health context them [90:35] not knowing how to help me, but I would [90:37] have these demonic experiences. They [90:38] would pray over me. And if anything, [90:40] there would be times where it got worse. [90:42] I did not receive any form of release or [90:44] relief from these demonic experiences. [90:47] And that confused me because I was like, [90:48] you talk about demons all the time. [90:50] Surely you know what I'm experiencing or [90:52] what I'm going through. And I no one [90:55] could help me. Um, and that was really [90:58] disheartening and discouraging. I [90:59] started to feel like I was the problem. [91:01] Like man, I'm not in sin actively. Like [91:04] I don't understand how like this is [91:06] allowed to keep happening. So, in going [91:08] back to, you know, my experience, my [91:11] father-in-law and sister-in-law dropped [91:13] me off at my apartment. My sister-in-law [91:15] offered to stay. Maybe my father-in-law [91:17] offered to stay. I can't quite remember [91:18] the details, but I didn't want to be [91:20] alone. But I was actually so incredibly [91:22] afraid of any leadership at Alter. I [91:25] didn't want anyone there because I knew [91:27] what I was experiencing deep down was [91:28] highly emotional. And I knew that none [91:30] of them had emotional bandwidth or [91:32] capacity to meet me or sit with me in my [91:34] pain because that was my experience. I [91:37] would share emotional experience after [91:39] heartache after heartache. And not very [91:41] often was I met right in the middle of [91:43] my pain. In the heat of my crisis, the [91:46] very last thing that I wanted was to [91:47] walk with people who were emotionally [91:49] disconnected. I'm sorry, but that was my [91:52] experience. [91:53] >> Um, and so I asked to be left alone and [91:56] for the next three and a half hours I [91:57] would go in and out of seizures until my [91:59] husband could get home. Um, it was [92:01] incredibly incredibly devastating and [92:04] dark. A few days later, Jeremiah Morgan [92:06] asked to meet at this time, you know, [92:08] right before my meeting with Jeremiah [92:09] and Morgan, I actually meet with a [92:11] doctor and this doctor would go on to, [92:13] you know, really be a vital piece in my [92:15] life. Um, and is a very close friend now [92:18] as well. But we sat down together [92:20] basically shared with me. She said, "The [92:23] crisis that you're experiencing right [92:24] now is a perfect storm in every area of [92:26] your life, spiritually, mentally, [92:28] emotionally, and physically. um this is [92:30] not something you will recover from in 1 [92:32] to two or even 3 months. She's like and [92:35] maybe not even a year. She was like you [92:36] need to step down and honestly even [92:38] encouraged me to move. She said that [92:40] what I was going through was so insanely [92:43] and severely traumatic and that time I [92:45] was diagnosed with several different [92:46] things. One of those things would be the [92:49] first thing was PNES. A PNES means [92:53] psychoggenic non-epileptic seizures. It [92:56] basically occurs when the heart and mind [92:58] can't fully express the tension or [93:00] cognitive dissonance that it's [93:02] experiencing. It forces resolving [93:04] signals to the motor course part of the [93:07] brain and it forces out of an effort to [93:09] resolve internal tension the body [93:12] response. So seizures, muscle spasms, [93:14] paralysis. So the PNES and the AB [93:17] reactions would really go hand in hand. [93:19] If I was triggered and if some type of [93:21] traumatic emotional, physical, whatever [93:23] memory was trigger triggered, I would [93:26] have seizures. And so so I was given [93:28] that diagnosis, seizures, uh limes, [93:31] limes disease, stage 4, like one of the [93:33] most intense forms of limes diagnosis to [93:36] the point where the bacteria had [93:37] infiltrated my brain and compromised my [93:39] body. Um and those often came with [93:43] paralysis episodes. I would wake up some [93:46] days where from the neck down I would [93:48] not be able to move. I would be in so [93:50] much pain. My husband would have to [93:51] carry me to the bathroom and help me [93:53] just go about my day. I was diagnosed [93:54] with high systemic mold colonization, a [93:57] medical EMF sensitivity, joint [93:59] inflammation, and just horrific. I was [94:01] constantly in horrific pain. [94:03] >> Yeah. And and had you left at an earlier [94:05] time, um all these things would have [94:08] been significantly less intense. you [94:11] know, possibly also just not happened in [94:13] the first place if you had stepped down [94:14] when you had first told heard the Lord [94:16] telling you to step down. [94:17] >> Yeah. So, for the folks who are [94:19] listening and thinking, "Wow, she's [94:20] dealing with a lot of sicknesses." But [94:22] all of these sicknesses, from what I [94:24] hear you saying, your doctors are [94:26] telling you, it's connected to the [94:28] emotional environment. Your body is [94:30] simply reacting. And if you get out of [94:32] this environment, there's going to be a [94:34] change. [94:34] >> 100%. [94:36] >> 100%. And chronic illness always comes [94:39] out of uh trauma, severe physical, [94:42] emotional trauma. Trauma is a breeding [94:44] ground for all manner of autoimmune and [94:46] chronic illnesses. So anything that was [94:48] in my system was just intensifying [94:51] because of the state of trauma, fight or [94:53] flight and stress that my body was in. [94:55] Um which I I was warned, you know, by [94:58] several doctors, if you don't take your [94:59] health seriously, if you don't take your [95:00] stress seriously, this is going to get [95:02] really bad. This is going to get really [95:03] bad. And I would tell leaders that. Um, [95:06] >> always minimized. [95:07] >> It was Yeah, I mean, yeah, it was [95:09] minimized. Thank God that Josiah ended [95:11] up taking a step down. [95:13] >> Hang on real quick. It was always [95:14] minimized by who? [95:15] >> Leadership. So did Jeremiah Morgan. And [95:18] I think it's possible that they just [95:19] honestly didn't understand. They didn't [95:22] understand. But in the same term, it [95:24] probably would have helped if they would [95:25] have taken the time to understand. um [95:27] >> or at least giving you the space to [95:28] think that yeah, it's okay for you to [95:30] step down [95:31] >> or consult the doctor you've been [95:34] talking with or somebody about what's [95:36] going on. [95:36] >> And I actually wanted that. I I remember [95:38] early on I wanted Jeremiah and Morgan to [95:40] connect with some of my doctors. The [95:41] impression that a lot of people at Alter [95:43] got since, you know, talking was that [95:45] all of a sudden my health just hit the [95:47] fan and I just couldn't handle the [95:50] environment anymore and it was kind of [95:51] more so on my body and on my health or [95:53] whatever. And that's not true. It was a [95:56] gradual incline [95:57] >> and progression and leadership was aware [96:00] of it the entire time. So, by the time [96:01] that my body actually hit the fan, it [96:04] was severe enough that I was given a [96:06] laundry list of lifealtering [96:07] diagnosises. [96:08] >> And they didn't agree um or say that it [96:12] was right for you to step down and feel [96:14] it was literally impossible to go [96:16] anywhere outside of the home, let alone [96:18] church. [96:19] >> Yeah. Yeah. I I was I was bedridden and [96:21] all like for months I was just in bed. [96:23] Um, so you know, [96:25] >> so now it is it is like a year ago, less [96:28] than a year ago. [96:29] >> Yeah. [96:30] >> And you you've given you received this [96:32] diagnosis and you're done. Did you did [96:34] you just tell them I'm quitting or [96:36] >> Yeah. We met with the Johnson's and they [96:38] offered us a paid sabatical for the [96:40] month of June for me to just kind of [96:42] reset, heal, figure out what was going [96:43] on. And I did. And about a week into it, [96:46] you know, I'm like, we we knew my time [96:48] was up. There was no way. Um, [96:50] >> and we had been talking about you [96:51] stepping down since we started dating. [96:53] >> Yeah, this was a long conversation [96:55] coming honestly. And what's funny is [96:57] Josiah was more pro me quitting than me. [96:59] So, it actually took me time to get on [97:01] the same page. [97:02] >> Yeah. It' be so funny talks where I'd [97:04] try and encourage you to listen to your [97:06] body, listen to your health and you'd [97:08] say like, I can't I can't I can't quit. [97:10] I don't know how. [97:11] >> Yeah. It I I just felt like I couldn't I [97:13] felt trapped. I felt like I couldn't [97:14] leave. And so I take the sbatical and [97:17] Jeremiah and Morgan actually made a [97:18] statement in this in this sobatical [97:20] meeting where Jeremiah basically said, [97:21] you know, me and Morgan have actually [97:23] been talking in the last little bit and [97:24] we were just saying we don't know how [97:25] much more meds can take. I didn't [97:27] respond to that in the meeting. I was [97:29] pretty mute internally. I'm fuming [97:31] fuming with anger. It's like what do you [97:33] mean? Like I've literally been trying to [97:35] quit two or three times now. This is [97:38] craziness. And so, you know, fast [97:40] forward, we meet with the boxes and the [97:41] Johnson's and the meeting was, you know, [97:44] relatively pretty good initially. And [97:46] so, we're, you know, Jeremiah's asking, [97:49] you know, how how do you feel like this [97:50] happened? And I'm sharing basically [97:52] shared that I felt like the Lord's [97:54] asking me to take a step down and [97:55] Jeremiah's like, the Lord already shared [97:57] with us, you know, we we saw we know [97:59] that you're supposed to step down large. [98:02] >> The Lord shared with them. That that was [98:03] very convenient timing. [98:05] >> Yeah. [98:07] Yeah. just still honestly cuz I'm right [98:10] in the middle of it. I can't really [98:11] accurately articulate or express what's [98:14] going on internally. Everything's just [98:16] so large and loud internally still for [98:18] me. We ask [98:19] >> so. You know what I would like to if I [98:20] could get them in the room with the [98:22] boxes, I would say, "So, wait a minute. [98:24] It wasn't time for her to step down all [98:25] those other times. She had to just keep [98:27] pressing in. But now that she's [98:29] definitely quitting, now the Lord is [98:30] telling you that there's a whole lot of [98:32] manipulation going on there." Because if [98:34] just 6 months ago the word of the Lord [98:36] was you got to press in, you get you [98:38] can't give up. You're going to miss out. [98:40] Why is anything different now that [98:41] things have gotten worse? If anything, [98:43] it should be the same advice. But it's [98:45] not because it was all off. It was all [98:48] manipulation. And [98:49] >> yeah. Yeah. Um you know, so we're we're [98:52] in this meeting and we're we're just [98:54] trying to figure out Stephen Lorraine [98:55] end up asking and you know, me and [98:57] Josiah, what do you guys need from [98:58] Jeremiah and Morgan? And you know, I [99:00] really just shared we need people to [99:02] walk with us. We're a few months into [99:04] marriage and I was given a lifealtering, [99:07] you know, diagnosis. And so Josiah's [99:09] like part-time tear caretaker but also [99:11] like only source of income. It just was [99:13] a lot. And so I said in my mind, you [99:16] know, and even in saying all of this, I [99:18] I had a relationship with Jeremiah and [99:19] Morgan who was really close to their [99:21] family went on like like babysat their [99:24] kids like went to Morgan's mom's house [99:26] and babysat like there's there's so much [99:28] relationship and history and and [99:30] connection there. And so I really made [99:32] every effort to make this work honestly [99:34] on my end. And so I'm asking them as [99:37] friends and as leaders like we really [99:38] need people to walk with us. Can we at [99:40] least meet once a month? J or Morgan's [99:42] immediate response is well you know how [99:44] busy our calendar is and if you can [99:47] communicate accurately um and [99:49] intentionally we'll we'll make sure to [99:51] put it on the calendar. And Jeremiah [99:53] just kind of smiles and Lorraine stands [99:55] up and doesn't like literally stands up [99:56] but sits up and says you heard that. So [99:59] if you don't if you don't communicate [100:01] for yourself, you can't get offended. [100:03] And I'm sitting there and I'm like, hang [100:04] on a minute. Like, we are in one of the [100:07] most severe health crisises of our life. [100:10] And you guys are our friends. You're our [100:12] leaders. We've given up everything to be [100:14] here. Like literally everything to be [100:16] here. My family, my relationships. You [100:19] are all that we have. Like truly. And we [100:22] need people to walk with us. Listen, [100:23] this is the It just I felt crazy because [100:25] it didn't feel like people were bearing [100:27] witness with the severity of our [100:28] circumstances. And so it felt like I was [100:31] making it up. It felt like and no one's [100:33] saying that, but it it feels like I'm [100:35] making this health stuff up. And I'm [100:36] like highly traumatic. [100:39] >> Yeah. And there was a they had asked um [100:41] in that meeting like why do you think [100:43] they got this bad? Like why do you think [100:44] how did this happen? How did we get to [100:46] this point? And you had said [100:49] >> I basically started alluding to the [100:51] stress of the environment. I was like [100:52] the environment is very high pace the [100:55] pressure and stress of my job you know [100:57] I'm leading worship for insane amount of [100:59] services and prayer room and alter [101:01] global and sometimes alter school like I [101:03] I was spread very thin um and I was [101:07] being very generous like I'm like I [101:08] think it could be you know contributing [101:10] to some of the stress and the traumatic [101:11] different things compounding trauma [101:13] that's happened in my time here at Altar [101:14] and Morgan basically responds and gives [101:17] me this word and basically the the word [101:19] is that she believes that the Lord is is [101:21] drawing me into a season of of [101:24] discerning my own discernment. Um, and [101:26] she's like, and I've had to go through [101:28] this, too. So, like I walk into a room [101:29] and I discern different things. She's [101:31] like, but I have to be careful that my [101:32] pain and my experiences aren't filtering [101:34] what I'm discerning. And she basically [101:37] was sharing with me that she feels like, [101:39] she's like, as a leader who's been over [101:41] you for the last four years, I think [101:42] that this is something that you deal [101:44] with and that the Lord is trying to work [101:45] out. And Loren, [101:47] >> at a certain point, I'm sorry, but at a [101:50] certain point, they just need to be [101:51] quiet. I mean, why? Like, like at at the [101:53] end of everything that you have shared [101:55] here, she's giving you kind of a rebuke. [101:59] You're the victim. You're the one who [102:01] suffered. You're the one who's been [102:02] taken from your from your house, from [102:04] your family. And it's it's very [102:06] frustrating for me to hear the story. [102:08] Lorraine says, "What?" [102:10] >> She basically sits up and is like, "I [102:12] agree. I agree." And I'm sitting I just [102:15] I just feel crazy. I'm I guess I like [102:18] >> Well, that is the definition of being [102:20] gaslit is that is that somebody is [102:24] giving you a something that's different [102:25] from reality. You're experiencing [102:27] reality and they're just coming up with [102:29] nonsense. [102:30] >> 100%. [102:31] >> Y [102:31] >> 100%. Yeah. So, you know, moving [102:35] forward, of course, I'm home. The church [102:37] took a break in July. Uh we went to the [102:40] 3r year anniversary for a little bit at [102:41] the altar. There was a large amount of [102:44] mold in the church building. So, I [102:46] really couldn't be there. So, initially [102:48] the reason why we weren't going to [102:49] church was obviously because of my [102:50] health, but two, uh, I couldn't be in [102:54] the building. Mold would trigger really [102:55] intense seizures for me. So, like even [102:57] at the third year anniversary, I was [102:59] sitting in the front row and started [103:00] having some pretty bad muscle spasms. [103:02] >> And your doctor told you not to go back [103:04] in the building? [103:05] >> Yeah, my doctor did tell me. She was [103:07] like, "Do not." [103:07] >> And we were we were really hardly going [103:09] anywhere at the time, let alone church. [103:11] We, you know, we weren't really going on [103:13] hardly any dates. We don't really hang [103:14] out with any friends. like we were truly [103:16] like kind of just stuck to our apartment [103:18] because [103:19] >> it was so hard for you to really do [103:21] anything even to go around the walk [103:22] around the neighborhood was was [103:24] challenging. [103:24] >> I think also it's important for us to [103:26] clarify when Madison now is in this [103:29] season. You know, some people could [103:31] possibly think, well, since Madison left [103:34] the altar, now Dana and Billy as their [103:36] parents are going to are maybe have been [103:38] turning their hearts against the altar [103:41] or against Jeremiah or we we didn't [103:44] bring up anything. [103:45] >> Well, we we didn't even know the [103:47] magnitude of what was going on here [103:49] because we weren't in that kind of [103:50] communication. [103:51] >> We were just glad to be relating with [103:53] her. [103:54] >> Yeah. Again, the last thing we were [103:56] going to do is try to convince her of [103:58] anything. [103:59] >> And [104:00] >> well, and we also ens we we had done the [104:04] research and we knew [104:06] >> her nervous system was maxed out there. [104:09] Her bandwidth was very small. So, we [104:12] weren't going to bring up something that [104:13] was going to be triggering or [104:15] traumatizing. [104:16] >> And she's let she has not yet left the [104:19] church in terms of church family. So, [104:22] it's difficult to go, but she hasn't [104:24] said, "I'm done here yet." So, the last [104:26] thing you would want to do is is pick a [104:28] fight there that could potentially [104:30] >> Yeah, we hadn't had any sort of those [104:32] conversations in in a long long time. [104:34] Long time. [104:34] >> You guys are always super respectful of [104:37] like our boundaries in that in that [104:39] front. It was kind of was it was just a [104:40] mute issue that we didn't really [104:41] discuss. We just didn't talk at that [104:43] time. [104:43] >> So, on the 4th of July, less than a year [104:46] ago, something special happens. [104:48] >> Yeah. So Madison is on the second month [104:50] of her sbatical. The relationship is [104:53] rebuilding because they need support. [104:55] And when they met with us and said what [104:57] was happening, our question to both of [104:59] them was guys this is this is big. This [105:03] is huge. How can we support you? What do [105:05] you need? And that really began to build [105:08] a bridge. But on July 4th, we had [105:09] planned a family cookout. And so Madison [105:12] and Josiah came. Preston was here with [105:15] um great family day. And I had heard [105:18] about Madison seizures. I had never seen [105:20] her have one, [105:22] >> but we had gone out to the pool after [105:24] dinner and I she said to me, "Mom, I'm [105:26] going to I need to go in and lay down." [105:28] I said, "Okay." So, she came inside and [105:30] then her brother Preston got out of the [105:32] pool and I said, "Hey, when you go in, [105:34] will you check on your sister?" So, he [105:36] did and he came back out and he said, [105:38] "Mom, she's asking for you." And I said, [105:40] "Okay." So I came inside. She was on my [105:43] bed. And when I opened the door, she was [105:44] in the middle of having one of these [105:46] seizures. Hands, you know, curled up, [105:48] shaking. She's crying. So I just come to [105:51] her side and I say, you know, what do [105:54] you need? And so you can rub her arms or [105:57] you can kind of rub her legs just to try [105:59] to help. Well, her other brother Mason [106:02] comes in. He sees what's happening. And [106:04] then here comes Billy. And then Josiah [106:06] must have had realized Madison's not [106:08] back. And so he gets out of the pool. He [106:10] comes in there and we're watching her [106:12] have this seizure. Josiah was so tender [106:15] and so good to her that our dog is [106:20] interrupting. [106:21] >> She's been pretty good girl for a long [106:23] time. [106:23] >> Anyway, so Josiah is very tender with [106:26] her, very you can see it calm her and it [106:28] was beautiful to watch. [106:29] >> At this point, I' experienced dozens of [106:32] seizures with him. [106:33] >> Yeah. [106:35] >> Yeah. So at that point though, Madison [106:39] once she kind of calms, she says, "Mom [106:41] and dad, can Josiah and I talk to you [106:43] tonight." And we're like, "Of course, we [106:45] we're not really sure what in the world [106:47] is coming." So, but we begin to talk and [106:50] she begins to explain a little more in [106:52] detail these P&S seizures. She says, [106:55] "Mom, there's like three kinds." And she [106:58] says, "Some are just physical. Like it [106:59] hits me and it's just physical. Some [107:02] when they hit me, it feels physical and [107:04] the spiritual element." She said, "But [107:06] the most painful ones are the ones that [107:09] come with large emotions and like [107:11] memories." And she said, [107:14] "Um, [107:16] for example, I have ones where I I feel [107:20] all this pain, but I see myself as a [107:22] little girl, and I'm looking around and [107:24] I'm saying, "Where's my mom? Where's my [107:27] mom? Where's my mom?" And she said, "I'm [107:29] terrified." Well, she begins weeping. [107:31] Well, I began weeping because I know [107:34] what she's describing. I've done my [107:35] research. I know that high control [107:37] groups shatter a secure attachment [107:40] between a child and their parents. So, [107:42] she's describing what I know to be true. [107:45] Ship is still a little tenuous. So, I [107:47] say, "May I hug you?" And she says, [107:49] "Yes." So, I get up, I wrap my arms [107:53] around her, and I just say, "I'm here. [107:55] I'm here. Um," At this point, [107:58] everybody's crying. And then she says, [108:00] "And dad, the same thing happens with [108:02] you. I'm a little girl and I'm looking [108:04] around. I'm saying, "Where's my dad? [108:06] Where's my dad? Where's my dad?" And [108:08] then Billy, we just trade places. And he [108:11] holds her and he says the same thing. [108:13] That night she apologized to us for [108:15] pulling away from us. [108:17] >> Wow. [108:18] >> We apologized to her for not knowing and [108:21] making things worse when we didn't [108:22] understand. And it really was the [108:25] beginning of the healing that um we're [108:28] very grateful for. [108:29] >> Wow. You know, it's I guess so sad and [108:32] beautiful that you had to ask her after [108:34] now I guess several years, can I can I [108:37] hug you? Of course, you were able to and [108:39] that's that's the most beautiful part. [108:41] And just seeing all of you together on [108:43] the couch is beautiful. This would be a [108:45] great place to end, but I want to ask, [108:47] you were told that because Jeremiah and [108:50] Morgan have pulled you out of your [108:51] family and now you're you're at the end [108:53] of this process and they said, "Well, we [108:56] will meet with you on a monthly basis if [108:58] you reach out to us." Did you reach out [108:59] to them? [109:00] >> Yeah, for about the first 3 months, [109:02] several conversations are just text back [109:04] and forth. You know, response times got [109:06] a little bit further and further by [109:08] about the third month, you know, and we [109:10] we didn't meet month one, didn't meet [109:12] month two or month three. Okay. So, by [109:14] the third month, I just started asking [109:15] the Lord. I'm like, Lord, are you just [109:16] not on this? So, we just kind of stopped [109:20] trying. And I was actually shocked at [109:23] how much peace I felt and was actually [109:25] grateful hindsight even now that we [109:27] didn't meet because given a text message [109:31] from Morgan would send me into a 2-hour [109:33] long seizure. a audio message from [109:35] Jeremiah would send me into a seizure to [109:38] the point where my dad, you know, my [109:39] husband's at work and dad's having to [109:41] come into my RV and just hold me until [109:44] the seizure ends um and peel apart my [109:46] hand like just the whole process. So, my [109:49] nervous system didn't have the bandwidth [109:50] or the capacity to see them or be with [109:53] them. [109:54] >> Wow. So again, I don't want to continue [109:56] to to beat up on Jeremiah, but I am [109:59] deeply concerned, you know, that there [110:02] needs to be some accountability here [110:04] because he again, he did pull you, him [110:06] and Morgan both, they pulled you out of [110:08] your home and and the entire leadership [110:10] and went through this horrible process [110:12] and then when you're coming out of it, [110:14] they just they dropped you. Now, it was [110:15] good for you because you're right, your [110:17] body would have a trauma response to [110:18] them. [110:19] >> Yeah. But but they didn't know that. And [110:22] the lack of empathy for where your life [110:26] would take you in the like once you were [110:27] out from their inner circle, it would [110:29] appear that they were done with you. [110:31] Like he told someone the other day, you [110:33] know, the people who are leaving it's [110:34] getting worse for them, but for us, even [110:37] though that group's getting smaller and [110:38] smaller, it's getting better and better, [110:40] which is what you would say in a high [110:42] control environment to keep people [110:44] there. What else would you like to share [110:46] today, Madison? [110:47] >> Yeah, thank you. So, uh, so you know, I [110:49] got I'll I'll keep it pretty [110:51] consolidated, but you know, I got [110:52] connected with an amazing doctor about [110:54] October, started to become a health [110:56] practitioner, uh, in October, and then [110:59] >> then in, um, October, November, sorry, I [111:02] was trying to figure out which month was [111:04] next. Um, in November, I kind of got to [111:06] the point where I was facilitating my [111:08] own detoxes. We met with a research, a [111:11] labs research, limes specialist, like [111:14] limes and mold specialist. Like I was [111:16] going and just trying to do as much [111:17] research as I could because you know I I [111:19] got all this time on my hands now to [111:21] just heal. Yeah. Which was the biggest [111:24] gift truly. [111:26] >> Um and [111:27] >> you needed it. [111:28] >> I needed it. [111:30] It was long overdue. And so I met with [111:32] this research doctor and she basically [111:34] said given my symptoms and given my [111:36] experience, it was going to take me a [111:38] minimum of 3 years to overcome the [111:40] seizures, a minimum of six years to [111:42] overcome the limes. And that's if the [111:44] type of limes that I have is curable [111:46] because for a lot of people limes isn't [111:48] curable. And then it was going to take [111:49] me at least eight years to detox from [111:52] the amount of mold because I had 10 plus [111:54] years of mold toxicity. Um and so I just [111:57] got off the phone with the research [111:58] doctor that wasn't the doctor that ended [112:00] up treating me. Thank God. Um and just [112:02] cried. I was like, "Mom, this can't be [112:04] my life. You see, I like I we refused to [112:08] accept that three, four, five, six [112:10] months into marriage, we were looking at [112:12] the next 10 years of navigating chronic [112:14] illness. And so, I saw this I had this [112:17] vision and I was in this hole. And I [112:18] asked the Lord and I said, "Lord, I I [112:20] don't want you to just deliver me from [112:22] this pit that I'm in. I want you to [112:23] teach me how to build a ladder to get [112:25] out." [112:26] >> And so, I became a health practitioner. [112:29] And the Lord without fail, it was so [112:31] beautiful. The Lord literally taught me [112:33] how to heal mentally, emotionally, [112:35] physically. I started getting trained. [112:37] I'm facilitating my own detoxes, my own [112:40] healing. Dr. Robin, Dr. Robin Perry [112:42] Braraw was overseeing all of this and [112:44] was incredible throughout the entire [112:46] process. I ended up going and doing her [112:49] program which is called IBRT, integrated [112:51] bioenergetic restorative therapies. And [112:54] my life completely changed in every way, [112:56] spiritually, mentally, emotionally. um a [112:59] few months after I would become seizure [113:01] free and I am to this day seizure free [113:04] muscle spasm I actually I made a list of [113:06] all of the things that I had gotten I've [113:09] healed from and I I want to read because [113:11] I think it is just so powerful [113:13] >> so seizure and muscle spasm free I've [113:15] lost weight my chronic fatigue's [113:17] completely gone my thyroid is healed my [113:19] adrenals are healed my cortisol is [113:21] regulated for the first time ever in [113:23] life the demonic torment I was [113:25] experiencing was completely gone I no [113:27] longer have panic attacks before I go to [113:29] bed just in being stressed around what [113:31] in the world I'm going to experience. [113:33] Paralysis episodes are gone. Panic [113:35] attacks are gone. Social anxiety is [113:37] gone. I sleep all night, which is like I [113:40] never slept. Like that's such a big [113:41] deal. Um I eat whatever I want. That's [113:44] another big deal. I was on horribly [113:46] restrictive diets for most of my life. [113:48] And the debilitating mold sensitivity is [113:50] gone. Like I feel like I'm like [113:51] inhabiting my body again. Like I'm not a [113:54] victim to my sensitivities or to [113:56] whatever. And so, yeah, so I'm almost [113:59] actually done becoming a a licensed [114:01] practitioner. I actually met with three [114:02] to four different health and licensed [114:04] mental health professionals just to kind [114:07] of get an understanding cuz around [114:08] December and January, I really wanted to [114:10] understand what was happening to me cuz [114:11] I knew these seizures were directly [114:14] connected to alter. And the more time I [114:15] spent Go ahead. [114:17] >> You left the high control environment [114:20] and your body begin to heal, [114:22] >> correct? [114:22] >> Yeah. [114:23] >> I mean, that that really is the lesson [114:24] there. I mean that I could even go [114:26] further and say and you're you're the [114:28] expert on trauma, not me. But you know [114:30] when you left your even though you were [114:32] an adult, you were encouraged to leave [114:35] your parents covering. You came under a [114:37] different covering that was high control [114:39] that was intense. That was lots of [114:40] pressure. Your body's reacting that you [114:43] come back under because there's the [114:44] spiritual dimension of just coming back [114:46] under your parents. Even though of [114:48] course now you're married and you know [114:49] you and your husband are one flesh [114:51] together, but you've made that [114:53] relationship right with your parents. [114:54] There's peace and your body and I I I [114:57] guess if there's anything I've gotten [114:59] out of this thing, I've got a lot out of [115:00] of this interview, but the how amazing [115:04] our bodies are like God that even when [115:07] we are saying no, no, no, our bodies are [115:10] going to alert us and say warning, [115:12] warning, there is danger. [115:14] >> Yes. It's just how God created this [115:17] human body is unbelievable. [115:20] But now you're back with your parents. [115:22] You've got a great relationship with [115:24] your husband and you're healing. That's [115:25] beautiful. [115:26] >> That's why I I believe that when the [115:28] scripture says love rejoices in the [115:31] truth, our body was designed to be [115:34] honest. [115:35] >> So think of Joseph, you know, everything [115:37] he went through was for a purpose. And [115:40] in the end, you know, he he becomes the [115:42] second most powerful person in the [115:44] world. And you know, what you went [115:47] through, I don't think was God's will. I [115:48] don't think what Joseph went through was [115:50] God's will to be falsely accused of [115:51] rape, to be sold as a slave. But God [115:53] worked it out for his good. Um, I don't [115:57] think what you went through was God's [115:58] will. But God is so so awesome, so big, [116:01] so amazing that he has worked his will [116:04] through everything you went through. And [116:06] now you can be a blessing to other [116:07] people through what you're learning. [116:08] even as pastors now to be able to [116:11] minister to people um and recognize [116:14] different realities of trauma and [116:17] symptoms of trauma and being able to be [116:20] sensitive to that and know now through [116:23] all this experience. You know, we've had [116:24] to really learn what to do with trauma. [116:28] >> Um it's been life-changing. So, I thank [116:31] the Lord for that. Um and very grateful [116:33] for that. So Josiah, you know, kind of [116:36] the irony of all this thing is, you [116:38] know, what what began with Madison being [116:40] taken from her family. Somehow in the [116:43] middle of that, she develops a [116:45] relationship with you. You guys get [116:47] married, but your parents are uh elders [116:51] and pastors at the altar uh the alter. [116:54] It's a weird irony because now you're in [116:57] that place where [116:59] um you have to wrestle with your [117:00] relationship with your parents. Of [117:02] course, I would never and certainly am [117:04] not encouraging you to disown or leave [117:06] or break relationship with your parents [117:09] and that relationship is highly [117:11] important. But how are you navigating [117:13] that right now? [117:14] >> Yeah, it's it's it's definitely been um [117:17] really challenging. We've had a couple [117:19] of um really hard conversations [117:23] have communicated to them. I really time [117:25] and time again my my heart is is for [117:28] unity in our family. my heart is to to [117:30] be their brother um to be their son and [117:33] that like all this doesn't change our [117:35] relationship doesn't change the fact [117:36] that I love them and I I definitely am [117:39] not I do have no intention of separating [117:42] myself from them because of the hardship [117:44] that we went went through and the things [117:46] were um I felt like my parents were [117:49] involved in in this process or my dad [117:51] was involved in this process where I I [117:53] felt hurt or confused or or you felt [117:55] hurt or confused we've had really good [117:57] dialogue about that and you know, I've [118:00] fully forgiven him and um like released [118:02] any resentment or or pain or frustration [118:05] to those instances. But at the end of [118:07] the day, as far as all this goes, I [118:09] agree with what I agree that there needs [118:11] to be accountability. Um and I believe [118:13] that there's other people that we know [118:15] and other people who are still involved [118:17] who have had similar experiences. And I [118:19] guess my my heart is to I'm I feel like [118:23] it's more important to um just speak [118:25] truth and share truth and encourage [118:28] others like hey if you experience [118:29] similar things like it's okay to you [118:31] know to think for yourself to listen to [118:34] your body to protect your relationship [118:36] with your family with the people who are [118:38] close to you and um so yeah it's that's [118:42] that's really where my priorities like [118:44] lie right now and at the same time still [118:47] trying as as hard as I can to protect [118:49] and love on the relationships I have [118:50] with my family at the same time. [118:52] >> Yeah, it's been difficult. [118:53] >> Well, this has been um a roller coaster, [118:57] I feel like, but it has ended in a [118:59] beautiful place with with your healing, [119:01] with your growth, with really great [119:04] insight from Josiah about how you're [119:07] navigating with your own family. I just, [119:09] you know, we're going to be praying for [119:10] you and you know, there are a lot of [119:12] people who love you and who have been in [119:14] touch with me. We came together because [119:17] of other people, but even today, you [119:18] know, people have texted me, you know, [119:21] who just really love you and care for [119:23] you, Madison, and are just so happy that [119:26] you're sharing your story. It's going to [119:28] bless a lot of people. [119:29] >> Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, we're happy [119:30] to do it. Thank you for giving us the [119:32] opportunity. [119:32] >> So, you know, I've heard a lot of [119:34] recordings of meetings and you know, [119:36] Jeremiah is constantly concerned that [119:38] people have not given him a meeting. [119:40] They have not come to him. And of [119:42] course, we know that you guys, Billy and [119:44] Dana, requested a Matthew 18 type [119:47] meeting or to take it to the next level. [119:49] Um, and they were not willing, but I can [119:51] imagine that he's going to watch this [119:54] video or hear about it and say, "Well, [119:55] why didn't they come to me? Why didn't [119:57] they do Matthew 18?" How would you [119:58] respond to that? [119:59] >> Yeah, I mean, I would say we did Matthew [120:02] 18 for 4 and a half years. That would [120:03] just be my short answer. I had ample [120:06] amounts of meetings with Jeremiah and [120:08] Morgan communicating with them different [120:10] things that hurt me primarily honestly [120:12] this this issue where Jeremiah demonized [120:14] both my mom and my dad and saying [120:16] different spirits that they had. I [120:17] remember sharing that with Jeremiah [120:19] directly and Morgan was in the room and [120:20] Jeremiah's response in apologizing was [120:24] I'm sorry that that's how you felt which [120:25] isn't an apology is the bottom [120:27] >> it's not. Jake Kale made a beautiful [120:29] post yesterday. I don't know if you saw [120:31] it about um identifying true repentance. [120:33] And I read it and I was like he hit the [120:35] nail on the head where it's like [120:37] Jeremiah would apologize for my feelings [120:40] in the situation or how that could have [120:42] hurt me or how that could have, you [120:44] know, affected or how I felt about it. [120:47] But he never acknowledged when I said [120:49] that about your parents that was highly [120:52] destructive to you as a 21-year-old and [120:54] for that I am truly sorry. He never [120:56] owned his actions and he maintained his [120:58] narrative that my parents were demonic, [121:00] controlling and manipulative. So there [121:01] therefore there was no never any true [121:03] repentance. So we we beat Matthew 18 [121:06] over the head honestly like and I was so [121:10] confused as to why it wasn't working [121:11] like and I had grown up with a household [121:13] of peacemaking and all of the different [121:15] things. And so I it was just maddening [121:18] to me why this wasn't working. And we [121:19] had had meetings with the boxes. See, [121:21] you know, another part of Matthew 18 is, [121:23] you know, if you go and confront your [121:24] brother and that doesn't work and then [121:25] you bring in two witnesses or two people [121:27] from the party. So, we did that. Still [121:29] no true repentance, no true turning. And [121:32] so, this is where I believe um and me [121:34] and my husband honestly, this is where [121:36] we've landed in all of it and why we [121:38] have created the distance and [121:39] communication we have. We believe this [121:41] is the scripture out of trying to pursue [121:43] Matthew 18 and that not working. Here's [121:45] the scripture that we're now standing [121:46] on. Confront a divisive person once. [121:49] confront a divisive person twice and the [121:51] third time have nothing to do with them. [121:53] And so believe that Mine doesn't really [121:56] fully apply to people who are [121:58] consistently abusing people spiritually [122:01] uh and manipulating people because there [122:03] is no true repentance. So therefore, [122:05] we've created space and do not see that [122:08] it's appropriate to have any more [122:10] conversation and dialogue where we will [122:11] just continue to be gaslit, manipulated. [122:14] Um, that was actually what I was told by [122:17] three separate licensed mental health [122:19] mental health professionals that I was [122:21] narcissistically abused and spiritually [122:23] abused. And so that's why we've created [122:26] such a strong stance and have not [122:28] communicated directly. [122:29] >> Yeah. I would also add that if Matthew [122:32] 18, it gives the appearance of two [122:34] people on equal level. If your brother [122:36] sins, [122:37] >> yes, [122:37] >> it is not somebody going to somebody who [122:40] is above them in authority and [122:42] particularly if they have abused them [122:44] and that your body is having a trauma, [122:48] you know, fight orflight response to [122:50] being around them. Certainly not. I just [122:53] want to share that for anybody listening [122:54] that if you're in a situation where [122:56] people are telling you to go to someone [122:57] that you are afraid of, who has hurt [122:59] you, who has tormented you or abused [123:01] you, no, you would go directly to [123:04] leadership and warn them of that person. [123:06] And then in this situation, you have an [123:08] entire leadership that is, you know, [123:11] coalesing around each other and [123:12] protecting each other. So, you can't [123:15] even go to the local elders and report [123:17] Jeremiah or you're going to get what we [123:19] saw a week ago where the elders get up [123:22] and basically defend Jeremiah. [123:25] >> Cover it up. [123:25] >> Correct. Yeah. [123:26] >> Cover up. [123:26] >> 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think my only [123:29] thought in that, you know, and what [123:31] becomes hard for people who are in the [123:32] system and who are really trying to just [123:34] obey leadership and the rules and things [123:36] like that, for someone who was abused, [123:38] whether it's physically or sexually, you [123:40] would never tell the victim of that form [123:42] of abuse to go and do Matthew 18 with [123:44] their abuser. That's not how it works. [123:46] You need a third party who is is not [123:49] involved and can actually protect the [123:51] victim and advocate for the victim and [123:53] and truly bring the reconciliation and [123:55] the justice that's needed. And so from [123:57] our through our prayer and different [123:59] things, we believe that this meeting [124:00] you, you know, having creating a [124:02] platform for us to share our story at [124:04] this point, we believe that the story is [124:06] for people who have been impacted. [124:07] Similarly, we have zero, you know, [124:09] intentions of trying to convince or [124:11] accuse or whatever with the Johnson's. [124:13] We believe at this point it's for the [124:14] victims who um aren't given a chance to [124:17] speak because they're being blacklisted [124:18] and silenced. [124:19] >> Amen. Amen. Well, I want to thank you [124:22] for sitting down with me and sharing [124:24] this story. I've learned a lot. I think [124:26] people are going to come away from this [124:28] better. So, God bless you. I'm excited [124:31] about the future, Madison, for you and [124:33] Josiah. You're two very mentally healthy [124:36] people and spiritually strong. And uh we [124:39] bless you. [124:40] >> Amen. Thank you. [124:41] >> Amen. [124:42] >> Thank you, Ron. [124:42] >> Thank you so much.  📄 **Full text:** ![[Full Document Contents/Articles/Jeremiah Johnson How Madison Broke Free of Cult-Like Control|Jeremiah Johnson: How Madison Broke Free of Cult-Like Control, YouTube]] ## Highlights - >> So just I want to I want to recap here real quick. So what she was going through was blamed on you. You were the problem for whatever changes you're going through in spiritual warfare. And it was advised to her by by Jeremiah, by the team there that she should move out of the home. Who told you, Madison, that you need to get out of that house? >> Jeremiah definitely was beginning to kind of communicate initially a little indirectly with his own thoughts, you know, opinions, different things like that. He had a strong belief of, you ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvt4ynkwmc3qw8p0b0xrm3)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - internally that I was navigating. So, I'm I met with Jeremiah. I sat down and, you know, we were meeting one-on-one in his office and he was was processing with me through some different things. I had some newer questions about stuff going on with my family. And here is really what whether it was intentional or unintentional on his end was a um pretty defining moment for me. Uh and some counsel that he gave. I was asking him just thoughts on different things going on with my family and just trying to make sense of, you know, I feel like ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvt4yskzfkx0xmdqfdm7nj)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - could see that she was unwilling to connect with me and so then I got afraid and fear does not bring out the best in any of us. So by now we are >> Let me just let me jump back if I can to to Madison in that conversation with Jeremiah. So he tells you that your parents are controlling, manipulative. What did that do to you? >> It shattered me honestly. Uh I started crying pretty pretty heavily. And again, ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvt4ywcwbfvep8tw9axhv9)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - key moment where Jeremiah says to a leader, I want to read it here. We need to get her out of that house. Explain that to me. >> Yeah, there was a combination of things happening there. Uh primarily, you know, uh which we spoke about. There was a level when I started working for Alter, I was experiencing a level of demonic torment that I honestly had never experienced in my entire life. And once we got into um the church context, it was like pouring gasoline on fire. my a large parts of my life were absolute ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvt4yzgwa786n0b4qsdyb3)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - surrounding circumstances it really just began to feel like I was being treated as if I was in some type of abusive home environment. It wasn't safe within my own family. So, you know, shortly after, I really can't remember if it was before I moved out or after, but Jeremiah gave me a prophetic word. He's like, "Madison, I see there being a severing and a cutting away for you and that the Lord is moving you and transitioning you and there is going to be a grafting into family and this basically you're being ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvt4z2d04fzszcrr2ybpv0)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - that was confusing me and I was encouraged to not communicate with Nathan or Mindy Sanford at all >> after meeting with Jeremiah and Morgan. I ran to the bathroom in the other building and I laid on the tile floor and had a 45minute long panic attack. Um, I was so horribly disregulated and confused and honestly traumatized of like trying to process through what they're saying about Nathan, trying to process through I guess I don't hear from God. And in the same turn, deep ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvt4z63wg6dkbm73khba9n)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - deep down, I felt trapped. I felt trapped by leaders of just like I can't discern when my timeline at altar is up. The Lord apparently only Jeremiah knows when my timeline is up. >> So the people that you felt safe around initially, your parents, they're being removed. Then you meet Nathan and Mindy and you feel safe around them, they're being slandered. And the people that you don't feel safe around that every time you're around them there is anxiety and stress. You're being gaslit by them ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvt4z9556cwzfrs6btbgpf)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - "Well, Jeremiah said, "My dream was demonic and that there would be a time that he would release me, but that time wasn't now." And Ron, I cannot describe to you what happened inside of me. I death. It was death. >> And it and it was a little bit after that, just a few days after that, Madison called me and he says, "Dad, I need to share what's going on with you." And and I asked her, "Do you want me to listen? You want feedback as well?" She said, "Please, I need your feedback as ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvt4zd5ra7w5saxeddf1w2)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - bathroom, and hysterically cry, shake, and yeah, that was a whole experience which I informed Morgan in on, and Jeremiah, I believe, was aware to degree as well. But, you know, again, there just wasn't a lot of understanding as to how to help me um in what I was navigating. And so I do want to share during this time we had had a time where Jeremiah was standing different staff members up because with the merge we were all trying to, you know, like get to know each other and share them more ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvt4zhf4v2vaxw4h9ktre1)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - incredibly incredibly devastating and dark. A few days later, Jeremiah Morgan asked to meet at this time, you know, right before my meeting with Jeremiah and Morgan, I actually meet with a doctor and this doctor would go on to, you know, really be a vital piece in my life. Um, and is a very close friend now as well. But we sat down together basically shared with me. She said, "The crisis that you're experiencing right now is a perfect storm in every area of your life, spiritually, mentally, emotionally, and physically. um this is ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvt4zm4t9q16swf885ph52)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted