John Cooper Answers Questions About NAR Abuse  🔗 **Source:** [John Cooper Answers Questions About NAR Abuse](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKLEZ8ASFig) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [new-apostolic-reformation, spiritual-abuse, charismatic-christianity, forgiveness, contemplative-prayer, deconstruction] > author: John Mark Baker, David Fish, John Cooper > source: Minor Prophets (YouTube) > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKLEZ8ASFig > date created: 2026-10-03 20:03 > > > [!info] Generated analysis — not the author's words. Sections below are machine-written > > from the captured source. Only text inside `> [!quote]` blocks is verbatim from the author. > > Do not quote or attribute any other line to the named author. > > > [!warning] Auto-caption artifacts and format note. This is a three-person podcast interview: > > hosts John Mark Baker and David Fish (Minor Prophets) question guest John Cooper (Skillet). > > The captions carry no speaker labels; attributions below come from in-conversation cues (for > > example Cooper's "I love how you set that up, David" at 00:48:52) and say "a host" where the > > cue is missing. The host warns at 00:00:42 that Cooper's audio and video drift out of sync. > > Likely caption garbles: "Minor Profits" (Minor Prophets), "Skrilix" (a host's joke on Skillet), > > "N," "NR" and "N church" (NAR, New Apostolic Reformation), "Brenn/Bin/Bren Jones" (Bryn Jones), > > "Carrie Jones" (Keri Jones), "William Bronnham/Brandham/Brham" (William Branham), "Bethl" > > (Bethel), "Shawn BS" (Shawn Bolz), "Katherryn Crick" (Kathryn Krick), "Rama" (rhema), > > "Ji Packer/Jiper" (J. I. Packer), "St. Chasum" (likely John Chrysostom), "Chayon" (Ché Ahn), > > "Chris Valaton/Valatin" (Kris Vallotton), "Thomas Craner" (Thomas Cranmer), "esqueological" > > (eschatological), "solo scriptura" (sola scriptura), "simp reformanda" (semper reformanda), > > "prospicuous" (perspicuous), "Watchman knee" (Watchman Nee), "shephering" (shepherding), > > "Grock" (Grok), "Wayne Grudum" (Wayne Grudem), "Joshua Harrison" (Joshua Harris), and "SA" or > > "essay" (sexual abuse). The description's chapter times run ahead of the transcript: the > > "Unique to NAR vs. senior-pastor model" chapter is listed at 22:00, but the question it names > > starts at 00:36:28. Notes below use the chapter names with transcript timestamps. Quotes keep > > the caption spelling. > > # 🏷️ Title: John Cooper Answers Questions About NAR Abuse > <!-- deep-read:sections start --> ## 🧭 Table of contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning styles assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO analysis](#️-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ## 📝 Summary - **What happened.** Minor Prophets, a channel run by John Mark Baker and David Fish for what Baker calls "disaffected charismatics," publishes a 1 hour 42 minute interview (uploaded 2026-09-29) with Skillet frontman John Cooper. Cooper describes 30 years in a church his wife's father founded in the 1980s, which linked up with Bryn Jones's British restorationist apostles in the 1990s and was led by an "apostle" Cooper calls his best friend. The hosts then ask four questions: how the theology connects to the abuse, whether NAR is unique compared with the one-man senior-pastor model, how Cooper rebuilt a prayer life, and how he forgives. A fifth question at 01:26:12 asks whether Cooper still stands by his earlier statements against deconstruction. - **The claim.** Cooper's central claim is that apostolic ecclesiology produces "theological abuse" by design: if, as C. Peter Wagner writes in *Dominion* (Cooper reads page 59 on air), apostles and prophets supply the "rhema" that teachers can't, then nobody below the apostle can test the apostle's teaching. Cooper concedes at 00:37:12 and 00:41:35 that the same danger exists in any pyramid with "one guy at the top," including cessationist Bill Gothard, and names three things he thinks make NAR different: worship-music reach, translocal scope, and youth-focused "transactional revivalism." - **Why it matters.** For a reader leaving an NAR context, the video offers two practical threads beyond critique. The first is a prayer-recovery method: three months praying only ancient written prayers on an hourly alarm (00:54:02 to 00:55:30). The second is a forgiveness model that separates letting go of wrath from restoring relationship or trust with an unrepentant leader (01:19:37 to 01:26:12). - **Key stakeholders.** John Cooper (guest); hosts John Mark Baker and David Fish, both former charismatic teachers by their own account (01:10:47, 01:17:24); Cooper's unnamed former apostle and Cooper's father-in-law, an elder; Alisa Childers, whose earlier interview with Cooper the description links; Remnant Radio, linked for its discussion of the same church; and named figures whose teaching is criticized (C. Peter Wagner, Danny Silk, Bill Johnson, Kris Vallotton, Ern Baxter, Bill Gothard, Jimmy Evans, Todd White). - **Risks and tradeoffs.** Cooper's account of his church is first-person and single-source; the church, the apostle and the papers he says the apostle wrote aren't named or shown. Several comparative claims are unsourced: that charismatic leadership has far more scandal than other traditions (01:14:26, attributed secondhand to Michael Brown), that Ché Ahn covers "25,000 churches" (00:43:00), and that four of the Fort Lauderdale Five repented of shepherding (00:26:16). The book quotes from Wagner and Silk are checkable in print; the rest are claims. - **Bottom line.** This is a calmer, more pastoral companion to Cooper's earlier, longer interviews: the hosts share his critique, so the episode spends less time on what happened and more on how Cooper rebuilt prayer and forgiveness. Its strongest contribution is the forgiveness-without-reentry framework and the hourly ancient-prayer practice; its weakest is a set of broad comparative claims about charismatic sin rates that the speakers assert without data. ## 📖 Main content - **Framing and disclaimers.** Baker opens by naming the audience: people disoriented by "the fallout of IHOP and Bethel and Shawn Bolz" (00:01:25). Cooper sets two ground rules before telling the story. First, a "rule of life": someone who has just left a cult should "sit down" and not teach others how to live, which Cooper says he has tried to follow for about two years (00:08:04 to 00:08:47). Second, he repeats that he loves charismatics, still calls them "my people," and describes himself as a "cautious continuationist" who probably "never truly was" charismatic (00:10:12 to 00:10:56). - **The church, as Cooper describes it.** Founded by his wife's father in the 1980s, linked in the 1990s to Bryn Jones's British restorationist apostles, and structured with an apostle at the top and a prophet beneath him (00:05:07). Cooper stresses it wasn't "hyper charismatic": no fire tunnels, no guaranteed-healing theology, and the Passion Translation was "outlawed" even though, Cooper says, one elder co-owned BroadStreet Publishing, which published it (00:03:39 to 00:04:24). Cooper flags this BroadStreet detail as never said on a podcast before. It is his claim and isn't documented in the video. - **How it unraveled.** Cooper says he became "deeply interested in theology" around 2015-16 and began pushing back on what he later recognized as NAR-style doctrine. He reports being told the concerns were "a demonic smokescreen" and "a false piety" aimed at tearing down "the apostolic ministry and the kingdom of God," some of it said publicly (00:07:21 to 00:08:04). He recounts telling Alisa Childers years earlier that critics were overstating the apostolic issue, and says "I was wrong" (00:07:21). - **Theology that enabled abuse.** Cooper reads Wagner's definition of theology from *Dominion*, page 59, which counts "God's works" and current "rhema" revelation as theological sources, and in which "apostles put it together." He reads Danny Silk's *Culture of Honor*, page 68, calling word-focused teachers "the lawyers, scribes, and Pharisees of our day." His inference: if only apostles and prophets access true revelation, nobody else can test them, and a dissenter can be told they lack the apostle's "special insight" (00:15:20 to 00:20:25). He names the result: truth stops being perspicuous and becomes "hidden behind this spiritual veil." - **The shepherding lineage.** Cooper ties the apostle's high view of spiritual authority to the 1970s shepherding movement. Cooper's personal theory, labeled as such, is that NAR "was birthed out of a co-mingling of British restorationism and shephering movement" (00:25:32). Ern Baxter is the connecting figure: William Branham's teaching partner, a promoter of the Latter Rain, one of the Fort Lauderdale Five, and a hero of Bryn and Keri Jones. David Fish adds that Baxter's 1970s *New Wine* articles rehabilitated Branham as an evangelist who erred by stepping into a teacher role (00:26:59 to 00:27:44). - **Logos and rhema.** Fish argues the logos/rhema distinction "doesn't exist in the original language," pointing to Hebrews 1:3 and 2 Peter 3 describing the same act of creation with different words, and says the distinction lets apostles present new revelation as "just the rhema of the scripture" (00:28:27 to 00:29:55). Cooper says his church never taught the distinction outright but "taught it through the way they functioned," and that after Cooper said he was leaving, the apostle preached that "devoted to the apostles' teaching" (Acts 2:42) meant devotion to his own teaching (00:30:38 to 00:33:30). Cooper's counter rests on John Frame's *The Doctrine of the Word of God* and the sufficiency of scripture. - **Selective outrage and the senior-pastor model.** A host relays a comment-section objection: the same danger exists wherever one man sits atop a yes-man board (00:36:28). Cooper agrees "100%" and offers Bill Gothard as a cessationist example who claimed his material came from God (00:37:12 to 00:41:35). A host adds Jimmy Evans, formerly an apostolic overseer at Gateway Church, as teaching that the 12-year-old Jesus was "out of authority" in the temple (00:39:24). Cooper's three differences: NAR's reach through Bethel music, its translocal scope (one apostle "covering" thousands of churches), and a focus on young people that turns revival into a formula he calls "transactional revivalism" (00:42:19 to 00:47:24). - **Recovering prayer.** Fish describes his wife's three years at IHOPU and the experience of linking God's presence to specific worship models (00:47:24 to 00:48:52). Cooper becomes emotional (00:49:36) and tells listeners who can't pray that it "doesn't mean that you're not saved." His method: study charismatic sources and the church fathers side by side; drop the former for a season; for about three months, pray only written prayers from Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Puritan (*Valley of Vision*) sources, six to eight of them every hour on an alarm. He contrasts the fathers' petitions ("grant that I may") with commanding God (00:51:05 to 00:56:13). - **Hosts on triggered practices.** Baker and Fish note that the usual advice to ex-charismatics, "pray the scriptures," backfires for IHOP alumni because singing the Bible was all they did in the prayer room. Fish describes finding the same content acceptable in Catholic and Orthodox psalm chants once he separated "cultural baggage" from the practice (00:57:42 to 00:59:08). - **Anger and forgiveness.** A host reads C. S. Lewis on forgiveness being "a lovely idea until they have something to forgive." Cooper names anger as his besetting sin, links it to Skillet's song "Monster," and describes a mental breakdown and depression (01:00:37 to 01:02:48). An Eastern Orthodox priest friend redirected Cooper from the apostle's guilt to praying for the leaders (01:04:15). Cooper says he forgave "a long time ago" and now dreams of being friends with the apostle (01:06:27 to 01:07:54). - **Sinner and saint.** Fish says hyper-grace teaching (Kris Vallotton named) removed "sin consciousness," and that praying Cranmer's Prayer of Humble Access exposed what Fish himself had taught (01:07:54 to 01:10:47). Cooper says the apostle once objected to "Monster" because it made Cooper sound like "some kind of horrible sinner," which Cooper now reads as an over-realized eschatology. He speculates that refusing to admit sin explains charismatic leadership scandals (01:12:14 to 01:16:39). - **Forgiveness is not re-entry.** Baker reads 1 John 2:9-11 and asks how indignation avoids becoming hatred. Cooper separates forgiveness from friendship and trust, criticizes a "hurry up and forgive" model he attributes to Bethel's *Culture of Honor* and Silk's *Unpunishable*, and argues that when elders don't hold an abuser accountable, "it's the entire system" falling on the victim (01:19:37 to 01:21:48). He describes two years of attempted reconciliation, multiple papers, and his refusal now to meet the apostle one-on-one, invoking Matthew 18's later steps (01:24:46 to 01:26:12). - **Deconstruction, revisited.** Cooper says he stands "100%" behind the content of his earlier anti-deconstruction statements but would change the wording, which he admits was broad (01:28:22 to 01:29:05). He says he aimed at former Christian leaders who "inject skepticism" online, not at hurt people, and recounts a Winter Jam conversation with a young woman abused by her pastor who asked, "Are you at war with me?" (01:31:18). Fish names Joshua Harris as the type Cooper meant (01:34:11). - **Closing challenge.** Cooper argues that if charismatic doctrine is right about a special deposit of the Spirit, the charismatic church should be the holiest and most discerning section of the church and the first to call out false apostles. He cites Justin Peters approvingly and advises struggling listeners to read only authors "dead for a couple hundred years" for a while (01:37:49 to 01:40:44). A host closes by pointing to Minor Prophets' earlier video on the Childers interview, recorded with Josh Lewis of Remnant Radio (01:41:28). ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKLEZ8ASFig&t=0) Intro - Cold open stitches lines from later in the episode, including the "selective in your outrage" question and Cooper saying he's going to get emotional. - Baker warns of audio/video sync problems on Cooper's upload and suggests listening instead of watching. - Baker frames the audience as people unsettled by IHOP, Bethel and Shawn Bolz fallout who want to hear from someone who has walked through an NAR church. #### ⏱️ [00:02:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKLEZ8ASFig&t=131) John Cooper's story - Thirty years in a church Cooper's father-in-law founded in the 1980s; linked to Bryn Jones's British apostles in the 1990s. - Cooper's research claim: British restorationists were among the first to put Latter Rain ideas into a "top-down leadership model" with translocal apostolic authority. - The church wasn't sensational: no word-of-faith theology, no guaranteed-healing doctrine. > [!quote] [00:03:39] > the Passion translation was outlawed at our church. - Cooper's new disclosure: an elder co-owned the Passion Translation's publisher and invited members to meet Brian Simmons around 2011-12; the apostle refused it. Single-source claim. #### ⏱️ [00:05:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKLEZ8ASFig&t=351) How it unraveled - The structure: apostle on top, prophet underneath, prophetic words weighed by the apostle's vision rather than a team (00:05:07). - Cooper's theology reading from 2015-16 led him to push back on what he later recognized as NAR doctrine. > [!quote] [00:07:21] > Alisa, you guys are making too big of a deal about this apostolic thing. - Cooper says the apostle insinuated publicly that the Coopers were "being used by the devil" and wrote to elders that the doctrinal concerns were a smokescreen. > [!quote] [00:08:04] > It was a false piety to make it sound like that we cared about the Bible #### ⏱️ [00:08:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKLEZ8ASFig&t=484) The "sit down" rule and the charismatic caveat > [!quote] [00:08:04] > you just left a cult, you should sit down and not tell other people how to live the Christian life. - Cooper says he has tried to "shut up" for about two years and came on only because Baker said it might encourage others. > [!quote] [00:09:30] > I can thank God for the suffering. - Cooper says he loves charismatics, has been in charismatic churches 35 years, and was a "cautious continuationist" in a period when cessationist churches had no room for one. #### ⏱️ [00:11:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKLEZ8ASFig&t=699) British restorationism and "how could you not see it" - Fish mentions the hosts' recent 90-minute episode "Are We Becoming Cessationists?" answering a common accusation. - Fish names Tony Morton as an apostle who visited Cooper's church and notes British restorationism split in two, each side claiming to be the restoration. - Fish's point: British apostolic leaders sound "so much more sane" than American ones, which makes the structure harder to spot. - Question posed: how do NAR ecclesiology and the abuse connect, rather than being separate problems? #### ⏱️ [00:13:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKLEZ8ASFig&t=832) Sponsor read, then Wagner's definition of theology - Creation Coffee sponsor read (promo code MP, 10% off) runs 00:13:52 to 00:14:35. - Cooper reads C. Peter Wagner's *Dominion*, page 59, and invites listeners to check it. > [!quote] [00:15:20] > Theology is a human attempt to explain God's word and God's works in a reasonable and systematic way. > [!quote] [00:16:03] > Teachers research and expound the logos. Prophets bring the Rama. And apostles put it together and point the direction into the future. - Cooper's inference: if only apostles and prophets have true revelation, a church without them is "deficient." > [!quote] [00:17:31] > when it comes to theological abuse, you will have theological abuse if that is your definition of theology. #### ⏱️ [00:18:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKLEZ8ASFig&t=1095) Danny Silk and hidden truth - Cooper reads Danny Silk's *Culture of Honor*, page 68, on teachers fixated on the written word. > [!quote] [00:18:15] > These are the lawyers, scribes, and Pharisees of our day. - Cooper says the framework "is not Protestant" and undoes the priesthood of all believers and the sufficiency of scripture. > [!quote] [00:20:25] > truth is not uh prospicuous to all. Instead, truth is is oluded. It's hidden behind this spiritual veil. #### ⏱️ [00:21:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKLEZ8ASFig&t=1271) Bereans and "do you not think I'm an apostle?" - Cooper assumed all Protestants agreed the congregation should check the teacher's work, citing Revelation's praise for testing false apostles. - He argues Wagner's description can't be squared with "apostles are just missionaries," since Baptists don't treat missionaries as the only ones with vision. > [!quote] [00:22:38] > he said Cooper do you not think that I'm an apostle and I was just flabbergasted #### ⏱️ [00:23:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKLEZ8ASFig&t=1401) Shepherding, Ern Baxter and Branham - Cooper links the apostles' authority teaching to the shepherding movement, John Bevere's *Under Cover*, and Watchman Nee. - Ern Baxter: Branham's teacher and partner, a Latter Rain promoter, one of the Fort Lauderdale Five, and a hero of Bryn and Keri Jones. - Cooper's labeled personal theory: NAR came from a mix of British restorationism and shepherding. - Cooper says four of the five repented of shepherding and he can't find evidence Baxter did. Unsourced in the video. #### ⏱️ [00:26:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKLEZ8ASFig&t=1619) Branham's rehabilitation and logos/rhema - Fish says Baxter's 1970s *New Wine* articles reframed Branham's failure as stepping out of his five-fold role, and credits John Collins's research showing Branham as a fraud "from day one." > [!quote] [00:28:27] > distinction is made up it doesn't exist in the original language - Fish's evidence: Hebrews 1:3 and 2 Peter 3 describe creation with different words; the Ten Commandments get both terms. - Fish ties this to Kathryn Krick's reading of Acts 2:42 as ongoing apostolic teaching. #### ⏱️ [00:29:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKLEZ8ASFig&t=1795) "Devoted to the apostles' teaching" - Cooper: the church never taught the logos/rhema split outright; "they taught it through the way they functioned," with phrases like "the now word of God." - John Frame's *The Doctrine of the Word of God* (foreword by J. I. Packer, per Cooper) "absolutely changed my life." - After Cooper said he was leaving, the apostle preached Acts 2:42 as devotion to his own teaching; Cooper says the apostle later admitted that meaning after Cooper wrote a critique paper. - Cooper's rebuttal: the Twelve taught what the risen Jesus taught them; a new revelatory category undermines sola scriptura. - Cooper criticizes a Bill Johnson passage from *When Heaven Invades Earth* tying discomfort with manifestations to the spirit of antichrist, and says a real apostle would resemble Clement, Ignatius, Athanasius or Polycarp (00:35:00 to 00:35:44). #### ⏱️ [00:36:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKLEZ8ASFig&t=2188) Unique to NAR vs. senior-pastor model - A host relays the comment-section objection: the senior-pastor model with a subservient board carries the same danger. - Cooper agrees and cites Bill Gothard, a cessationist he says claimed his curriculum came from God, describing a book by two authors he saw on Alisa Childers's podcast (title not recalled on air). - A host adds Jimmy Evans teaching that the boy Jesus was "out of authority" in the temple. - Patreon read runs 00:40:08 to 00:40:52. > [!quote] [00:41:35] > So my point is yes this can happen in any model where you've got one guy at the top in a pyramidal structure. #### ⏱️ [00:40:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKLEZ8ASFig&t=2452) What Cooper thinks makes NAR different - Cooper corrects himself: Gothard didn't use the word "sin" either. - Difference 1, reach: "If there was no Bethel music," people wouldn't listen to Bill Johnson's teaching. > [!quote] [00:43:00] > it's the music that is changing the game and getting getting worldwide perspective. - Difference 2, scope: lead pastors don't cover "30 churches," unlike Ché Ahn covering "25,000" (unsourced figure). - Difference 3, youth: Cooper praises charismatic investment in young people, then says confident claims about restoring early-church worship are false by his reading of church history. > [!quote] [00:46:40] > And it becomes a transactional revivalism. #### ⏱️ [00:47:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKLEZ8ASFig&t=2844) Recovering prayer life - Fish: his wife spent three years at IHOPU; people leaving tie God's presence to specific models and feel God has left when those are gone. - Cooper repeats he isn't telling anyone how to pray, then becomes emotional. > [!quote] [00:49:36] > I want you to know that you are not alone. Doesn't mean that you're not saved. - Cooper's credentials offered as reassurance: a Christian since age 5, "a novice theologian," and has played to "80,000 people." #### ⏱️ [00:51:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKLEZ8ASFig&t=3065) Ancient prayers on an hourly alarm - Cooper studied charismaticism and the church fathers in parallel and was "panicking" at the inconsistency. - He dropped charismatic reading "for now," saying "it's not good for me," not that its teachers aren't saved. > [!quote] [00:53:17] > One of my favorite ones is God grant that I may rejoice in your mercy. - For about three months he prayed only others' prayers (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Puritan *Valley of Vision*), six to eight of them each hour on an alarm, because his anger otherwise made him "a very very fleshy evil person." > [!quote] [00:55:30] > Grant that I may see my own sin. That is a gift from God that you see your own sin. - Outcome per Cooper: he prays his own words again and his prayer life "is better than it's ever been." #### ⏱️ [00:56:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKLEZ8ASFig&t=3417) Hosts on cultural baggage - Baker: prayer habits are tied to an ecclesiology people have left; even worship songs carry "emotional baggage." - Baker and Fish: IHOP alumni resist "pray the scriptures" because that's all the prayer room did. - Fish found Catholic and Orthodox psalm chanting acceptable and concluded the trigger was culture, not content; he calls rejecting other traditions' prayers part of "hyper-controlling theology." #### ⏱️ [00:59:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKLEZ8ASFig&t=3548) Anger, aftermath, forgiveness - A host summarizes "secret doctrines," lies and gaslighting, then reads C. S. Lewis on forgiveness. > [!quote] [01:00:37] > it took me into a place where I I really had a mental breakdown, struggled with depression - Cooper calls anger his recurring sin, fears physically attacking drivers who cut him off, and says Skillet's "Monster" is about that anger. - His reason for public honesty: show that Christians struggle and still come to Christ. #### ⏱️ [01:03:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKLEZ8ASFig&t=3811) The Orthodox priest and the shift in "positionality" - Cooper stays Reformed Protestant but credits Eastern Orthodox writing and a priest friend who "immediately jumped to how I need to forgive them." - Practical tip: search for ancient prayers against bitterness or anger (Cooper mentions Grok). > [!quote] [01:05:42] > He's not a greater sinner than me. I've probably abused people and don't know. - Cooper says he forgave "a long time ago," and describes dreams of being friends with the apostle, which he doesn't call prophetic. #### ⏱️ [01:07:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKLEZ8ASFig&t=4074) Sinner and saint - Fish: hyper-charismatic and hyper-grace teaching merged; Kris Vallotton taught believers aren't sinners; Justin Paul Abraham's "sin consciousness" language. - Fish recites Cranmer's Prayer of Humble Access and says it surfaced Vallotton's voice and Fish's own past teaching. > [!quote] [01:10:47] > so much of my ability to forgive, whether people agree with it or not, is based in a knowledge of my own sinfulness. - Fish recommends early church prayers, Reformation prayers and the Puritans to ex-charismatics. #### ⏱️ [01:12:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKLEZ8ASFig&t=4334) "Monster," over-realized eschatology and leadership sin - The apostle objected to "Monster" lyrics making Cooper sound like "some kind of horrible sinner." > [!quote] [01:12:57] > re reformed theology teaches that we are simultaneously sinners and saints. - Cooper ties apostolic necessity to a belief that the church will reach full maturity before Christ returns, which he calls Latter Rain thinking. - Cooper's labeled conjecture: denial of sin explains why charismatic leadership has more scandal; he cites Michael Brown secondhand and names Steve Lawson as a Reformed counterexample. > [!quote] [01:15:11] > then we would have far less sin in our leadership than the cessationist church. - Cooper calls Todd White's claim of 13 years without sin a red flag ("Hide your wife. Hide your kids"), while saying he knows nothing else about White. #### ⏱️ [01:17:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKLEZ8ASFig&t=4644) 1 John 2 and forgiveness without re-entry - Baker: C. S. Lewis on loving a neighbor who isn't always nice; reads 1 John 2:9-11; asks how indignation avoids becoming hatred. > [!quote] [01:19:37] > forgiving them does not mean you have to have a friendship and that you trust them and that you want them back into your life. - Cooper criticizes a "hurry up and forgive... come back under their leadership" model he attributes to *Culture of Honor* and *Unpunishable*, labeling it his own blunt reading. - Love, per Cooper, is defined by the law and Jesus' words; leaders who don't deal with repentance aren't loving the victim (1 Timothy cited for accountability). > [!quote] [01:21:48] > now it's not just one person abusing you it's an entire structure it's the entire system that is set up to fall on top of you. #### ⏱️ [01:22:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKLEZ8ASFig&t=4952) Letting go of wrath, staying wise - Cooper: no pressure to stay in relationship with an abuser, but "a godly pressure" to let go of wrath, which he calls something "the devil loves." > [!quote] [01:23:17] > Don't declare. Ask God to grant you forgiveness towards someone. Ask God to take away the bitterness. > [!quote] [01:24:46] > And in my situation, I tried for reconciliation literally for two years. - Cooper asked his father-in-law (an elder) and the apostle to explain any charge of demonic motive so he could repent; he says they never met with him. - He now refuses one-on-one contact by email and wants elders copied. > [!quote] [01:26:12] > We're already to the third step and beyond. #### ⏱️ [01:26:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKLEZ8ASFig&t=5172) Deconstruction statements, revisited - A host asks whether Cooper views his "pretty harsh" past statements differently. - Cooper says he was blunt about his own anger partly so deconstructing people would know he understands. > [!quote] [01:28:22] > I stand 100% behind the content of what I was trying to say in those years. - He would change the wording: he used "extreme language" and short caveats, and says he didn't know church-abuse-driven deconstruction was "a big thing" then. - He says some outlets covered his statements inaccurately; no outlet is named. #### ⏱️ [01:30:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKLEZ8ASFig&t=5436) Winter Jam and the "online people" - Cooper's target, in his words: former Christian leaders online who look for hurt people to "pick them off." > [!quote] [01:30:36] > I am at war with those people. - A young woman on the Winter Jam tour, abused by her pastor, asked if he meant her. > [!quote] [01:31:18] > Are you at war with me? - Cooper says he changed his stage language after that, but isn't "backing down" on progressive Christianity, postmodernism, or "literary deconstruction." - Fish names Joshua Harris as monetizing his own deconstruction with paid classes (Fish's characterization, unsourced in the video); Cooper confirms "that's 100% it" (01:35:39). #### ⏱️ [01:35:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKLEZ8ASFig&t=5739) Closing challenge to charismatics - Fish prays for the Coopers finding a local church, noting Cooper's wife has described difficulty returning. - Cooper places himself "in a Wayne Grudem line," a cautious continuationist. > [!quote] [01:37:49] > the charismatic church should actually be the holiest section of the church - Cooper's challenge questions: why so much leadership sin, and why are charismatics "the last people to call out false apostles"? - He cites Justin Peters approvingly: cessationists "kick them out of leadership" and don't rush restoration. > [!quote] [01:40:44] > Only read books of people that have been dead for a couple hundred years. - A host thanks Cooper and links Minor Prophets' earlier video on the Childers interview, made with Josh Lewis of Remnant Radio. ## 📚 References The transcript itself contains no links; the following come from the video description or are primary sources for named entities. No URL beyond the description was fetched or verified during this analysis. - Cooper's interview with Alisa Childers (description link): https://youtu.be/-GwayjaKqfQ - Remnant Radio discussing the abuse at Cooper's former church (description link): https://www.youtube.com/live/y19_eTQ6KEY - Minor Prophets Patreon (description link): https://www.patreon.com/minorprophetspodcast - Creation Coffee, episode sponsor, promo code MP (description link): https://www.creationcoffee.com/ - C. Peter Wagner, *Dominion! How Kingdom Action Can Change the World* (Cooper cites page 59 at 00:15:20). Wagner named the New Apostolic Reformation. - Danny Silk, *Culture of Honor* (Cooper cites page 68 at 00:18:15) and *Unpunishable* (named at 01:19:37). - Bill Johnson, *When Heaven Invades Earth* (paraphrased at 00:35:00). - John Frame, *The Doctrine of the Word of God* (Theology of Lordship series), cited at 00:31:22. Cooper attributes the foreword's praise to J. I. Packer; not checked here. - John Bevere, *Under Cover* (00:23:21). - *The Valley of Vision*, a collection of Puritan prayers (00:54:45). - Thomas Cranmer, the Prayer of Humble Access from the Book of Common Prayer (recited at 01:09:20 to 01:10:03). - C. S. Lewis, *Mere Christianity*, the chapter on forgiveness (quoted at 00:59:53; the "as we had in the war" line matches that chapter). - Bible passages invoked: Acts 2:42; Hebrews 1:3; 2 Peter 3; 1 John 2:9-11; Matthew 18:15-17; 1 Timothy (accountability of elders); Revelation 2:2 (testing false apostles). - People named as historical background: Bryn and Keri Jones and Tony Morton (British restorationism); Ern Baxter and the Fort Lauderdale Five (shepherding movement); William Branham; Bill Gothard; Watchman Nee. - The book on Bill Gothard Cooper can't recall (00:37:56) may be *A Matter of Basic Principles: Bill Gothard and the Christian Life* by Don and Joy Veinot and Ron Henzel. That identification is a guess and isn't confirmed in the video. - Skillet, "Monster" (2009), named at 01:02:04 as a song about Cooper's anger. ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - **Who's talking.** Two hosts who share the guest's critique of the New Apostolic Reformation interview John Cooper about the church he left, then spend most of the time on recovery: prayer, anger, forgiveness and what to keep from charismatic faith. - **The church.** Cooper spent 30 years in a family-founded church tied to British apostles. It looked sober: no guaranteed healing, no Passion Translation. Underneath, an apostle sat above everyone, and prophetic words passed through his vision. - **The mechanism.** Wagner defines theology so that apostles and prophets supply revelation that teachers can't. If that's true, nobody below an apostle can correct him, and anyone who tries can be told they lack insight. Cooper calls the result theological abuse built into the definition. - **The fairness check.** Cooper agrees any one-man pyramid carries the danger, cessationist ones included. He thinks NAR differs by music-driven reach, by one apostle covering many churches, and by selling young people a formula for revival. - **Prayer.** When Cooper couldn't pray, he stopped improvising and prayed old written prayers every hour for three months, asking God to "grant" rather than commanding. His own prayer came back. - **Forgiveness.** Letting go of wrath is required; restoring friendship and trust with an unrepentant leader isn't. When elders won't hold an abuser accountable, the whole structure becomes the abuser. Cooper still wants reconciliation, but only with witnesses. - **Deconstruction.** Cooper keeps his earlier position against online ex-leaders he sees as recruiting hurt Christians out of faith, softens his language toward people who are hurting, and says the Winter Jam conversation changed how he talks. - **The challenge.** If charismatics have a special deposit of the Spirit, they should be the holiest and most discerning Christians, not the slowest to remove false apostles. ## 📰 Newsletter **John Cooper's account of leaving an apostolic church, and what helped him pray again** Minor Prophets' 102-minute interview with Skillet's John Cooper covers less of the church conflict than his earlier interviews and more of the aftermath. Hosts John Mark Baker and David Fish ask the questions people leaving NAR-adjacent churches tend to ask: how does the theology connect to the harm, is this just an NAR problem, how do I pray now, and how do I forgive? Cooper's answer to the first question is a book on his shelf. He reads C. Peter Wagner's definition of theology from *Dominion*, in which "apostles put it together and point the direction into the future," and draws the conclusion plainly: > "when it comes to theological abuse, you will have theological abuse if that is your definition of theology." He's fair about scope. Asked whether he's being selective, he agrees that "this can happen in any model where you've got one guy at the top in a pyramidal structure," and points to cessationist Bill Gothard as proof. The prayer section is the part worth sending to a friend who's stuck. Cooper says he couldn't pray. For three months he prayed only other people's prayers, Orthodox, Catholic and Puritan, six to eight of them every hour on an alarm. The prayers ask God to *grant* things instead of commanding them. His own words came back afterward. On forgiveness, he draws a line that a lot of church culture blurs: > "forgiving them does not mean you have to have a friendship and that you trust them and that you want them back into your life." He tried for two years to reconcile and now refuses to meet his former apostle one-on-one, insisting on witnesses. Two cautions. Cooper's account of his church is his own and unnamed; nothing in the video documents it. And some of the episode's broadest claims, that charismatic leadership has far more scandal than other traditions, rest on secondhand impressions, not data. Take the practices; check the statistics. ## ✅ Action items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: no direct action from this source; nearest relevance is Cooper's "sit down" rule (00:08:04), a reminder to wait before teaching publicly from a fresh, unprocessed conflict. - Education: Cooper's method of reading a primary source aloud with a page number (Wagner, page 59) before arguing from it is a reusable pattern for any talk that critiques a framework. - Developer experience: no direct action from this source. - Developer marketing: no direct action from this source. - Community management: Cooper's refusal to take a one-on-one channel with someone he considers manipulative, insisting elders be copied (01:25:30), maps to incident handling: keep reports in a shared, witnessed channel when there's a power imbalance. - Internal/external/cross-project: no direct action from this source. #### OSPO - Policy & Governance: Cooper's "one guy at the top in a pyramidal structure" test (00:41:35) applies to any project where one role can't be overruled; check whether governance docs give a plural body real override power. - License Compliance: no direct action from this source. - Security Management: no direct action from this source. - Software Inventory: no direct action from this source. - Developer Support: no direct action from this source. - Community Engagement: no direct action from this source. - Strategic Alignment: no direct action from this source. #### Community - Maintainers: Cooper's two years of unanswered papers (01:24:46) is the same failure as an escalation path that accepts reports but never responds; a process needs a response obligation, not just an inbox. - Contributors: no direct action from this source. - Sponsors: no direct action from this source. - Ecosystem: no direct action from this source. #### WordPress - Core: no direct action from this source. - Core Performance: no direct action from this source. - Core AI: no direct action from this source. - Core Program Team: no direct action from this source. - Mobile: no direct action from this source. - Playground: no direct action from this source. - Community: the forgiveness-without-re-entry distinction (01:19:37) fits code-of-conduct outcomes: a resolved incident doesn't oblige a reporter to work with or trust the other party again. - Training: no direct action from this source. - Marketing: no direct action from this source. - Support: no direct action from this source. - Design: no direct action from this source. - Documentation: no direct action from this source. - Photos: no direct action from this source. - TV: no direct action from this source; nearest relevance is the episode's own chapter list, which drifts from the content (see Accessibility). - Polyglots: no direct action from this source. - Accessibility: no direct action from this source. - Meta: no direct action from this source. - CLI: no direct action from this source. - Hosting: no direct action from this source. - Tide: no direct action from this source. - Openverse: no direct action from this source. - Themes: no direct action from this source. - Plugins: no direct action from this source. #### The WPOCC - Programs: no direct action from this source. - Projects: no direct action from this source. - Funding experiments: no direct action from this source; nearest relevance is the governance point above, that a collective's leadership needs a body that can say no to its leader. ### FAIR - Technical independence: no direct action from this source. - Policies and covenants: Cooper's distinction between "translocal" authority over many churches and a single local pastor (00:43:00) parallels federated governance: authority that spans many nodes needs more checks, not fewer. - Productized governance artifacts: no direct action from this source. ## 🧪 Hypotheses - People leaving charismatic or apostolic churches who adopt a fixed, liturgical prayer practice (set prayers at set times) report returning to self-composed prayer sooner than those who try to keep praying extemporaneously, as Cooper describes for himself at 00:54:02 to 00:56:13. - Churches whose stated theology grants a leader revelatory authority others lack (Wagner's model as read at 00:16:03) show fewer successful internal challenges to that leader than churches with the same one-leader structure but no revelatory claim, isolating theology from structure. - Survivors who separate forgiveness from restored relationship (Cooper's model at 01:19:37) report lower rumination and anger scores at 12 months than survivors taught that forgiveness requires returning under the same leadership. - Rates of publicly reported leadership misconduct per thousand congregations don't differ by charismatic versus cessationist tradition once you control for governance structure and size, testing Cooper's "on steroids" claim at 01:39:14. - Former members of high-control groups react with distress to practices (praying scripture, specific worship styles) because of the context in which they learned them, not the practice itself, so the same content in an unfamiliar liturgical form triggers less distress (Fish at 00:58:25). ## 📊 Methodology - **Prayer practice study.** Recruit adults leaving charismatic churches; randomize to a fixed-hour written-prayer protocol or a free-prayer control for 12 weeks; measure prayer frequency, self-reported closeness to God, and time to resumed spontaneous prayer. - **Theology versus structure.** Code church governance documents and teaching for (a) single-leader structure and (b) explicit revelatory authority claims; survey former members on whether challenges to leadership were heard; compare the four cells. - **Forgiveness models.** Longitudinal survey of spiritual-abuse survivors, coding what they were taught forgiveness requires; use validated rumination, anger and forgiveness scales at baseline, 6 and 12 months. - **Misconduct rates.** Build a dataset of documented leadership misconduct cases from denominational records and investigative reporting; normalize by congregation counts; model by tradition, governance and size. This tests a claim the video makes only by impression. - **Context-triggered distress.** Present former IHOP-style participants with identical psalm texts in charismatic sung form versus Orthodox chant; measure self-reported and physiological stress. - **Limits.** The video supplies no data for any of these. Cooper's own account is single-source, the church is unnamed, and the comparative claims rely on secondhand impressions (Michael Brown at 01:14:26, Justin Peters at 01:40:44). ## ❓ Questions - Does the Remnant Radio episode linked in the description name or document the church, the apostle's papers, or the "admission" Cooper says came after his critique (00:32:04)? - Which of the Fort Lauderdale Five publicly repented of shepherding, and when? Cooper says four did and is unsure about Ern Baxter (00:26:16). - What's the source for Ché Ahn's network covering "25,000 churches" (00:43:00), and what does "covering" mean in practice for those churches? - How does Cooper square standing "100%" behind the content of his anti-deconstruction statements (01:28:22) with admitting he didn't know abuse-driven deconstruction was common when he made them? - Where does Michael Brown say charismatic leadership scandal is "way worse" (01:14:26), and on what evidence? - Is the book on Bill Gothard Cooper half-remembers (00:37:56) the Veinots' *A Matter of Basic Principles*, and does it contain the Jesus-in-the-temple exchange he describes? - How did Cooper's family relationships (his father-in-law is an elder) shape the two-year reconciliation attempt, and does the "witnesses only" rule apply to family contact too? - Does Minor Prophets' earlier video on the Childers interview raise concerns this episode doesn't? ## 🔮 Future research - Primary-source history of the link between British restorationism (Bryn Jones, Tony Morton) and American NAR networks, testing Cooper's "co-mingling" theory at 00:25:32. - Ern Baxter's role in rehabilitating William Branham's reputation, starting from the *New Wine* articles Fish cites (00:26:59) and John Collins's Branham research. - Lexical study of logos and rhema usage across the New Testament and Septuagint, checking Fish's claim that the distinction "doesn't exist in the original language" (00:28:27). - Practical-theology research on liturgical prayer as a recovery practice after spiritual abuse. - Comparative data on leadership misconduct by tradition and governance model, which the episode asserts in both directions without numbers. ## 💡 Implications - **Practice.** Someone who can't pray after leaving a high-control church has a concrete, low-demand option: written prayers at fixed times, asking rather than declaring. Cooper reports results within about three months; that's one person's account. - **Policy.** Church or community accountability policies should say who can overrule the top leader and must require a response to written concerns. Cooper's two years of unanswered papers show what happens when neither exists. - **Security.** Cooper's refusal to meet one-on-one and his insistence that elders see all communication (01:25:30) is a personal-safety practice: keep a record and a witness when dealing with someone who has controlled the narrative before. - **Education.** Reading the movement's own books with page numbers (Wagner, Silk, Johnson) gives listeners a checkable basis for the critique, which is stronger than characterizations. - **Funding.** No direct implication; the episode carries a coffee sponsor read and a Patreon ask, the channel's stated funding model. ## 🧠 Learning styles assessment - Reading level estimate: Flesch Reading Ease 76.7 ("fairly easy") and Flesch-Kincaid Grade 6.9, computed on the full caption text (17,786 words, 1,022 caption-punctuated sentences) with a vowel-group syllable count. Caption punctuation is automatic, so sentence boundaries are approximate. The vocabulary includes technical theology terms (ecclesiology, perspicuity, cessationist, over-realized eschatology) that raise the real difficulty for listeners outside the tradition. #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: little. The video is three talking heads; Cooper holds up books he reads from, and the host warns the video desyncs from the audio. - Improve: on-screen text for the Wagner and Silk quotes with page numbers, and a simple lineage diagram (Latter Rain, shepherding, British restorationism, NAR) for the 00:23:21 to 00:27:44 history. #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: strong. The format is conversation, with long uninterrupted answers and read-aloud prayers (Cranmer at 01:09:20). - Improve: the sync issue and Cooper's lower audio quality, flagged at 00:00:42, cost clarity; a cleaned audio-only version would help. #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: strong. Cooper and Fish define their terms (rhema, shepherding, cessationist, simul justus et peccator in plain words at 01:12:57). - Improve: several terms go undefined for newcomers: Latter Rain, five-fold ministry, over-realized eschatology. #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: the prayer protocol is a concrete, do-able practice: an hourly alarm and six to eight written prayers (00:54:45). - Improve: list the specific prayers Cooper used in the description so listeners can start the practice without searching. #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Cooper builds a clear chain from Wagner's definition to untestable authority (00:16:49 to 00:20:25) and concedes counterexamples (Gothard). - Improve: the comparative claims about scandal rates rest on impressions; numbers or named studies would let this group evaluate them. #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: three people trading personal stories; both hosts disclose their own past teaching (01:10:47, 01:17:24). - Improve: point listeners to a moderated community or support group rather than only to Patreon. #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: the prayer and reading advice is built for solitary practice, down to "only read books of people that have been dead for a couple hundred years." - Improve: a reading list in the description would support self-study. #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: none. - Improve: not applicable to this source's subject matter. ## 📊 Accessibility assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: the description has a structured chapter list (9 entries) and labeled links, which screen readers announce as text. - Improve: the chapter times don't match the content (the senior-pastor question appears at 00:36:28 against a 22:00 chapter), so a screen-reader user jumping by chapter lands in the wrong discussion. WCAG 2.4.6 Headings and Labels expects labels that describe what they lead to. #### Keyboard navigation - Present: YouTube's player controls and chapter markers are keyboard reachable. - Improve: because chapters are offset, keyboard users need extra seeking; accurate chapters would meet 2.4.5 Multiple Ways in practice, not only in form. #### Contrast and readability - Present: not assessable from the transcript; the video is a three-way call. - Improve: on-screen text for book quotes would need 4.5:1 contrast per 1.4.3 Contrast (Minimum). #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: not applicable to the video stream. - Improve: the description text reflows on YouTube's own pages; no action. #### Media and captions - Present: auto-generated captions only. They mangle core terms throughout: "N" for NAR, "Rama" for rhema, "Bin Jones" for Bryn Jones, "Katherryn Crick," "Chayon," "Thomas Craner," "esqueological." - Improve: for a video about named movements and leaders, uncorrected names block search and comprehension. 1.2.2 Captions (Prerecorded) is met in form only; edited captions or a published transcript would fix it. The audio/video desync the host flags (00:00:42) also affects lip-reading. #### Forms and interactions - Present: not applicable to the source video. - Improve: not applicable. #### Standards reference - WCAG 2.2 AA: 1.2.2 Captions (Prerecorded), met nominally with substantive name errors; 2.4.5 Multiple Ways, chapters exist but are offset; 2.4.6 Headings and Labels, chapter labels don't match their positions; 1.4.3 Contrast (Minimum), not assessable from the transcript. ## 🌍 DEIB assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: the conversation spans Reformed, Anglican, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and charismatic traditions, and Cooper credits an Orthodox priest and Catholic prayers despite Protestant pushback (00:59:08). - Improve: all examples are from US and UK churches; NAR networks are global, and the episode doesn't touch how apostolic structures operate in the Global South. #### Inclusive language - Present: Cooper repeats "I love charismatics" and says he isn't questioning anyone's salvation. - Improve: the Todd White remark (01:16:39, "I don't want you near my wife") and "Hide your wife. Hide your kids" is a personal jab Cooper himself hedges with "I don't know anything about him." #### Neurodiversity support - Present: long answers stay on one topic, and Cooper summarizes ("That's the end of my spiel"). - Improve: frequent caption-level disfluency, offset chapters and the desync add load for listeners who rely on structure. #### Representation - Present: three men discuss the story; Cooper's wife, a co-author of the experience, appears only through references (01:35:39). - Improve: the young woman at Winter Jam (01:31:18) is the only woman whose experience is described, and only as a turning point in Cooper's thinking. #### Psychological safety - Present: Cooper tells listeners who can't pray that it "doesn't mean that you're not saved" and openly cries; the hosts give room for it. Cooper explicitly frees listeners from any obligation to re-enter relationship with an abuser. - Improve: the episode mentions sexual abuse by a pastor (01:31:18) without a content note in the description. ## ✅ Logical validity #### Strong reasoning - **Definition to mechanism (00:16:49 to 00:20:25).** Cooper reads Wagner's definition, then derives the consequence: if apostles and prophets alone supply revelation, nobody else can test them. He limits the claim, saying a humble apostle might not abuse anyone, but "theological abuse" follows from the definition itself. - **Conceding the counterexample (00:37:12 to 00:41:35).** Asked about selective outrage, Cooper accepts that one-leader pyramids carry the same risk and supplies his own cessationist example (Gothard), then corrects an overstatement about Gothard saying "sin" (00:40:52). - **Lexical evidence (00:28:27).** Fish backs the claim that logos and rhema are synonyms with parallel passages (Hebrews 1:3 and 2 Peter 3 describing creation), a checkable argument rather than an assertion. - **Structure over individual (01:21:03 to 01:21:48).** Cooper argues that once elders fail to hold an abuser accountable, the harm becomes institutional, which explains why individual forgiveness doesn't resolve the situation. - **Internal critique (01:37:49 to 01:39:14).** Cooper grants charismatic premises for the sake of argument and shows what they'd imply: more holiness and discernment, not less. This is a fair reductio aimed at people who hold the doctrine. #### Fallacies - **Hasty generalization (01:14:26 to 01:15:56).** *Location:* "it's so much worse" for charismatic leadership scandal, and a claimed link between legalism and "rampant sin." *Why weak:* no counts, and Cooper calls the legalism link "this weird spiritual thing that I can't explain." *Fix:* scope it to observed cases or cite data. - **Appeal to authority, secondhand (01:14:26).** *Location:* "I've even heard people like Dr. Michael Brown admit it's way worse." *Why weak:* an unsourced recollection of another person's opinion stands in for evidence. *Fix:* cite the statement and its basis. - **Appeal to common belief (01:39:14).** *Location:* "everybody pretty much agrees it's on steroids in the charismatic church." *Why weak:* agreement isn't evidence of rates. *Fix:* same as above. - **Argument from silence (00:45:57).** *Location:* "I haven't read anywhere in church history... where people were dancing and shouting." *Why weak:* not having read it doesn't show it didn't happen. *Fix:* cite the sources surveyed. Cooper does frame it as "in my research." - **Ad hominem by insinuation (01:16:39).** *Location:* Todd White's claim of 13 years without sin leads to "I don't want you near my wife." *Why weak:* it implies risk from one claim while Cooper admits he knows nothing else about White. *Fix:* critique the sinlessness claim as theology, which Cooper does elsewhere. - **Motte-and-bailey risk (01:28:22 to 01:30:36).** *Location:* Cooper stands "100%" behind the content of statements whose broad wording he concedes, retreating to a narrower target ("people who are actively trying to get Christians to leave"). *Why weak:* the narrow reading is defensible, but the original words reached a wider group, as the Winter Jam conversation shows. *Fix:* Cooper partly does this by naming the change in wording; stating which past lines he'd retract would complete it. #### Tone of voice - Warm, confessional and repetitive in the way of a long spoken conversation. Cooper apologizes for emotion, disclaims authority ("I am not a Bible teacher"), and repeats his love for charismatics at least four times. The hosts are supportive rather than adversarial; the one challenging question (deconstruction, 01:26:12) is posed gently and accepted without follow-up. Humor is light ("Skrilix," "Hide your wife"). ## 🛡️ DARVO analysis - **Deny:** Per Cooper, the apostle and leadership denied the substance of his concerns by recasting them as "a demonic smokescreen" and "false piety" (00:07:21 to 00:08:04), and only admitted the meaning of the Acts 2:42 teaching after Cooper wrote a paper (00:32:04). Cooper's own stance on his past statements isn't a denial: he concedes his wording was broad and changed it, while keeping the position and saying some outlets misreported him without naming them (01:29:51). - **Attack:** Per Cooper, the apostle insinuated publicly that the Coopers were "being used by the devil" (00:07:21) and lobbed accusations without meeting ("you can't lob the hand grenade and never meet with me," 01:24:46 to 01:25:30). Within the episode, the only personal attack is Cooper's aside about Todd White (01:16:39), which Cooper hedges. - **Reverse victim-offender:** Per Cooper, the apostle's written framing cast Cooper's doctrinal concerns as an attempt "to tear down the apostolic ministry and the kingdom of God" (00:08:04), which makes the person raising concerns the aggressor. Cooper's request that leaders explain any charge so he could repent (01:24:46) shows him seeking the conversation the reversal avoided. This account is single-source. - **Assessment:** The DARVO pattern appears only in Cooper's description of his former leadership, not in the speakers' conduct on air. It's a coherent account consistent with patterns described in other high-control-group testimony, and it remains uncorroborated within this video; the Remnant Radio link in the description is the stated place to look for more. ## 🎯 Conclusion - **Bottom line.** The episode adds two things to Cooper's earlier interviews: a clear argument that Wagner's definition of theology makes apostolic authority untestable, and a practical account of how Cooper rebuilt prayer and forgiveness. Both are worth keeping; the church-specific facts stay single-source. - **What to take.** The hourly ancient-prayer practice (00:54:02 to 00:56:13) and the line between letting go of wrath and restoring trust (01:19:37 to 01:24:01) are transferable to anyone leaving a high-control church. - **What to flag.** The comparative claims about charismatic scandal rates, the "25,000 churches" figure, the Fort Lauderdale Five repentance count, and Fish's characterization of Joshua Harris are unsourced in the video. - **What's open.** Whether the Remnant Radio episode or other reporting documents Cooper's church, and whether Cooper ever names which of his earlier anti-deconstruction statements he'd retract rather than reword. - **For the reader.** Cooper's insistence that confusion in prayer "doesn't mean that you're not saved," from someone who spent 35 years in charismatic churches, is the most direct pastoral line in the episode. ## 🔄 Refactor Appendix — John Cooper Answers Questions About NAR Abuse > Density: 2-5 Literature atoms (H3), 0-3 Permanent candidates (H4). > Defaults: 3 Literature, 1 Permanent. Resonance filter: if you can't > articulate in one line why a claim matters, drop it. ### 📚 Literature Split Pad #### [H1] A theology that ranks revelation produces theological abuse > [!quote] [00:17:31] > when it comes to theological abuse, you will have theological abuse if that is your definition of theology. **Context & use**: - Cooper's conclusion after reading Wagner's *Dominion*, page 59, where teachers handle logos, prophets bring rhema, and apostles "put it together." - Separates the abuse from any one leader's character: the definition itself removes the ability to test the leader. **Tags**: #xref #articleseed <!-- atomicity: 1 idea ✓ --> #### [H2] Someone fresh out of a cult shouldn't teach yet > [!quote] [00:08:04] > you just left a cult, you should sit down and not tell other people how to live the Christian life. **Context & use**: - Cooper's "rule of life," which he says he followed for about two years before this interview. - Useful as a self-check before writing publicly about a departure while it's still raw. **Tags**: #xref #aphorisms <!-- atomicity: 1 idea ✓ --> #### [H3] Forgiveness doesn't require restored friendship or trust > [!quote] [01:19:37] > forgiving them does not mean you have to have a friendship and that you trust them and that you want them back into your life. **Context & use**: - Cooper's answer to Baker's 1 John 2 question; he contrasts it with a "hurry up and forgive... come back under their leadership" model. - Pairs with his later point that unaccountable elders turn one abuser into "the entire system." **Tags**: #xref #articleseed #aphorisms <!-- atomicity: 1 idea ✓ --> #### [H4] Asking God to grant replaces commanding God > [!quote] [01:23:17] > Don't declare. Ask God to grant you forgiveness towards someone. Ask God to take away the bitterness. **Context & use**: - Ties the prayer-recovery practice (ancient prayers that ask God to "grant") to forgiveness. - Directly reverses the decree-and-declare habit taught in many NAR-adjacent churches. **Tags**: #xref <!-- atomicity: 1 idea ✓ --> ### 🧠 Atomic Split Pad #### [P1] Forgiveness and restored access are separate decisions **Claim** (one sentence, Courtney's voice): I can let go of wrath toward someone who harmed me without giving them back the access, trust or authority they used to do it. **Evidence pointer**: [[#H3]], [[#H4]] **Scope & conditions**: Holds when the other party hasn't repented or the structure around them hasn't held them accountable (Cooper at 01:21:48). Weakens where genuine repentance and an accountable process exist; Cooper still calls reconciliation God's heart (01:24:01). **Links**: - [[DriKZ2nlq70_john-cooper-skillet-church-hurt|John Cooper From Skillet Waged War on Deconstruction. Now He Has Church Hurt.]] — because extends the same church account with Cooper's recovery practices, and contrasts Whitaker's reading of Cooper's deconstruction statements with Cooper's own account at 01:28:22 <!-- atomicity: 1 idea ✓ --> ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue - [F1] Watch the Remnant Radio episode linked in the description for any documentation of Cooper's church #fleeting #inbox - [F2] Try a two-week fixed-hour written-prayer experiment (Valley of Vision plus Orthodox prayers) and note what changes #fleeting #inbox - [F3] Check whether the Gothard book Cooper half-remembers is the Veinots' *A Matter of Basic Principles* #fleeting #inbox - [F4] Wagner's *Dominion* page 59 definition of theology is a citable primary source for the NAR revelation claim #fleeting #inbox ### → Things 3 (max 2 actions) - [ ] Draft the "forgiveness and restored access are separate decisions" permanent note — from Cooper on Minor Prophets, 01:19:37 #things - [ ] Watch the Remnant Radio episode on Cooper's former church — description link, to check corroboration #things <!-- deep-read:sections end --> 📄 **Full text:** [[Full Document Contents/Articles/John Cooper Answers Questions About NAR Abuse.md|John Cooper Answers Questions About NAR Abuse by John Mark Baker, David Fish, John Cooper]] ## Highlights - [00:07:21] recognize. And I I I had a a big argument with Alisa Childers years ago. I was like, "Alisa, you guys are making too big of a deal about this apostolic thing. There's no way. There's no way that these people mean what you're saying." And uh and I was wrong. And uh so that's kind of my story. Things got very bad though. And we kind of got in a way pushed out of the church. We were lied about. We've been said uh our my my apostle who was my best friend for 30 years um you know has said insinuated publicly several times that we were being used by the devil. The de um he actually wrote in one of his papers to his elders that all of these doctrinal [00:08:04] concerns were actually a demonic smokec screen. It was a false piety to make it sound like that we cared about the Bible, but really all we wanted to do is tear down the apostolic ministry and the kingdom of God. And some of this stuff was said publicly. And so things got very, very ugly. And so that's kind of where it's at today. And the last thing I'll say, if you don't mind, is just um I was a little hesitant to come on the podcast because um I have a rule, and this is a good rule of life. Everybody write it down. Uh if you've been duped by a cult, and you just left a cult, you should sit down and not tell other people how to live the Christian life. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01m423w0j194m9c01hqsqn1j19)) - Note: [H2] Someone fresh out of a cult shouldn't teach yet - Tags: atom/literature/h2 - [00:17:31] going to be deficient. So to me it's an obvious implication that that is I'm not saying that means there you know there absolutely will be abuse every single time. Maybe you get some incredibly humble man. He may have an arrogant doctrine about his office of apostle, but he may be really really humble and never want to treat people in in in a certain way. That might actually be true. But when it comes to theological abuse, you will have theological abuse if that is your definition of theology. And then I want to read one more. Um I know you guys actually read this recently. This is [00:18:15] from Culture of Honor Danny Silk on page 68. But when the church insists on having a logical culture, we demand a logical gospel and therefore we turn to the teachers. Most teachers today are fixated on the written word of God. They believe that the word of God is the source of life and truth on the earth. Correct? Their value for the word is much higher than their need for the supernatural. These are the lawyers, scribes, and Pharisees of our day. So, I'm not going to continue to read read the rest, but this is what these men think about Bible teachers. This is what they think about mere elders. This is what they think about mere fathers and ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01m423vxsca47zcc960ktcjs1v)) - Note: [H1] A theology that ranks revelation produces theological abuse - Tags: atom/literature/h1 - [01:18:52] are being hurt. People are being wounded. But if you're not careful, that anger that is good and right because it comes from love can become hatred. Especially when you're dealing with issues where these are doctrines that are believed by sincere people that are leading towards abusive treatment, but that person's still a brother. And in your case, it was your own like your best friend. How do you grab a hold of this truth from the scriptures about loving your brother and not allow something that could be righteous indignation to become hatred that then begins to blind you so that you don't actually see where you're going? Loving someone or not hating them even um and [01:19:37] forgiving them does not mean you have to have a friendship and that you trust them and that you want them back into your life. I think a really harmful thing that has happened is this idea of forgiveness that means well you forgive your abuser and so jump back into relationship. And you see that in a lot of a lot of of these church models even again not to go off on on Bethl again but you guys have covered this on your show just like uh this book that I was reading what's it called? Culture of honor or unpunishable which is another book. I mean, their whole model is basically, I'm gonna say this in a way that they would say is unfair, but let's just cut to the chase and I'll say it the way ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01m423w33jn6sxn10s2emdegvs)) - Note: [H3] Forgiveness doesn't require restored friendship or trust - Tags: atom/literature/h3 - [01:23:17] towards this person. And I don't want to do something the devil loves. And I'm a I'm a believer. I am a saint. And I don't want to act like this Lord. And so I would just say to people, this is not something you have to work up in your own energy. You don't have to just be like, I I command for you. Don't don't don't command don't command. Don't declare. Ask God to grant you forgiveness towards someone. Ask God to take away the bitterness. Um take away all the bitterness in my heart and replace it with your Holy Spirit. I'm telling you, if you pray that every hour, it's going to be very hard for you to be wrathful during the hour. It's it [01:24:01] it may take a while, but eventually you will just let go of it because you'll just focus on how much of a sinner that you are. So, let go of the wrath. It ain't easy. Um, but don't feel that that pressure that's like and we now we have to have a relationship or I'm not truly walking with God. No, some of these people are are not safe to let back into your life because they are they are unrepentant abusers and that means they're going to do it again and it's going to put you back in the position again. Uh the last thing I'll say about this is I still believe we should be eager for reconciliation. If I understand the Bible, I think that that God's heart is always ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01m423w5n06kza6a05bmnnfq18)) - Note: [H4] Asking God to grant replaces commanding God - Tags: atom/literature/h3