Kansas City Prophets Q&A False Prophecy, Mike Bickle, and Discernment

Kansas City Prophets Q&A: False Prophecy, Mike Bickle, and Discernment ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/MHjBdbl__K8/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [Kansas City Prophets Q&A: False Prophecy, Mike Bickle, and Discernment](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHjBdbl__K8) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [prophecy, discernment, charismatic, kansas-city-prophets, false-prophets, pentecostal] > author: Joshua Lewis, Michael Miller > source: Remnant Radio > reference: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHjBdbl__K8] > date created: 2024-12-19 14:32 > > # 🏷️ Title: Kansas City Prophets Q&A: False Prophecy, Mike Bickle, and Discernment >  ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - Include links cited in or relevant to the article. ## 📝 Summary - What happened: Joshua Lewis and Michael Miller answer viewer questions from their previous livestream about the Kansas City Prophets movement, focusing on false prophecy, Mike Bickle's moral failures, and discernment principles. - Why it matters: The discussion addresses critical questions about prophetic accuracy, leadership accountability, and how to evaluate charismatic leaders who claim divine revelation while living in sin. - Key stakeholders: Charismatic/Pentecostal believers, IHOP attendees, church leaders evaluating prophetic ministry, and those seeking biblical discernment. - Risks and tradeoffs: Balance between maintaining openness to spiritual gifts while exercising proper discernment; risk of either cessationism or naive acceptance of false prophecy. - Bottom line: False prophets are identified not primarily by prophetic accuracy but by leading people away from Christ; Christians must exercise wisdom in evaluating both prophetic claims and character. ## 📖 Main Content This Q&A session addresses complex questions about prophetic ministry, false prophecy, and leadership accountability in charismatic Christianity. The hosts distinguish between different definitions of "false prophet" - those who get predictions wrong versus those who lead people away from Christ. They emphasize that biblical false prophets were typically outsiders to the covenant community who led people away from Yahweh, not believers who occasionally missed prophetic words. The discussion covers Mike Bickle's claim of receiving revelation in Egypt while allegedly involved in sexual misconduct. The hosts express skepticism about such claims, drawing distinctions between Old Testament judges (whom God used despite sin during a largely apostate period) and modern leaders who should be held to New Testament standards for church leadership. Key themes include: the conditional nature of some prophetic words (as seen in Jonah and Nineveh), the danger of fantasy-prone personalities distorting supernatural experiences over time, and the importance of evaluating both character and doctrine when assessing spiritual leaders. ### 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:02:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHjBdbl__K8&t=165) Definition of False Prophet - Biblical false prophets lead people away from Yahweh, not just those who get predictions wrong - Nathan told David to build temple, was corrected by God, but wasn't called false prophet - False prophet = outside covenant family leading people away from faithfulness #### ⏱️ [00:05:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHjBdbl__K8&t=330) Mike Bickle's Egypt Experience - Claimed divine revelation while allegedly molesting 14-year-old - Hosts skeptical due to Bickle's pattern of lies throughout life - Comparison to Samson: God had only sinful people to use in judges period vs. many righteous options today #### ⏱️ [00:12:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHjBdbl__K8&t=735) Evaluating Leaders Who Vouched for Bad Actors - Different categories: those who couldn't know, should have known, definitely knew - Bill Johnson endorsing Bob Jones despite knowing his sexual misconduct destroys credibility - Need Christian charity and wisdom in determining which category someone fits #### ⏱️ [00:18:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHjBdbl__K8&t=1125) Fantasy-Prone Personalities - Some people naturally see supernatural meaning in everything - Stories can become more fantastic through repeated telling - Important to tell miracle stories honestly and make corrections when needed #### ⏱️ [00:23:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHjBdbl__K8&t=1410) Redeeming Movements with Bad Roots - Most denominations don't have Branhamite roots (Presbyterian, Baptist, etc.) - Movements can be redeemed by walking away from bad doctrines that propagated them - Protestant principle: always reforming and correcting errors #### ⏱️ [00:28:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHjBdbl__K8&t=1680) Conditional Prophecy - Jonah and Nineveh - Jeremiah 18: God can relent from judgment if nations repent - National-level words have intrinsic conditionality based on faithfulness - Individual prophecies with specific timeframes should be taken at face value #### ⏱️ [00:35:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHjBdbl__K8&t=2115) Continuationist vs. Cessationist Burden of Proof - 1 Corinthians 14:1 commands believers to pursue prophecy - Ephesians 4 gives timeframe: gifts continue "until unity of faith and maturity" - Burden of proof on cessationists to explain why we should stop obeying biblical commands ## 📚 References - [Sam Storms' book on Kansas City Prophets](reference needed) - [1 Corinthians 14:1](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2014%3A1&version=ESV) - [Jeremiah 18:7-11](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2018%3A7-11&version=ESV) - [Ephesians 4:11-13](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%204%3A11-13&version=ESV) - [Numbers 12:6-8](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%2012%3A6-8&version=ESV) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase Joshua Lewis and Michael Miller tackle difficult questions about prophetic ministry and spiritual discernment. They argue that true false prophets are those who lead people away from Christ, not merely those who get prophetic words wrong occasionally. Using biblical examples like Nathan's interaction with David, they show that even court prophets could be corrected without being labeled false. The hosts express deep skepticism about Mike Bickle's claimed divine encounters, particularly his Egypt experience that allegedly occurred while he was engaging in sexual misconduct. They distinguish between Old Testament periods when God used sinful leaders during largely apostate times versus today when many faithful leaders are available. A significant portion addresses how to evaluate leaders who endorsed problematic figures like Bob Jones or Mike Bickle. They create categories based on what leaders could have known versus what they actually investigated, calling for both accountability and Christian charity in making these determinations. ## 📰 Newsletter Discernment Drama: Kansas City Prophets Q&A Unpacked! Hey WordPress warriors! This week we're diving into some heavy spiritual discernment questions that honestly apply way beyond charismatic circles. Ever wonder how to spot the difference between a leader who occasionally gets things wrong versus someone who's genuinely leading people astray? Our friends at Remnant Radio tackle the tough questions about false prophets, failed predictions, and what to do when leaders you trusted turn out to be... well, not so trustworthy. The Mike Bickle situation has a lot of people asking hard questions about spiritual authority and accountability. Key takeaway for us WordPress folks: Just like we need to carefully vet plugins and themes before trusting them with our sites, we need wisdom when evaluating spiritual leaders and their claims. Not every bug is malicious code, but patterns of deception should raise red flags! Check out their full discussion for some surprisingly applicable principles about trust, verification, and community accountability. Plus, they've got some great insights on the difference between conditional and unconditional promises that might just help with your client communication too! 🎙️✨ ## ✅ Action Items #### Community - **Maintainers:** Develop clear accountability frameworks for leaders claiming special revelation or authority - **Contributors:** Create educational resources on biblical principles of spiritual discernment - **Sponsors:** Review funding decisions for ministries with credible allegations of misconduct #### WordPress - **Community:** Establish clearer guidelines for evaluating speaker credentials at WordCamps - **Training:** Develop workshops on leadership accountability and community standards - **Documentation:** Create resources for identifying and responding to spiritual manipulation in tech communities ## 🧪 Hypotheses 1. Leaders who endorse others without proper investigation lose credibility proportional to their negligence 2. Movements can be redeemed by abandoning foundational errors and returning to biblical standards 3. Conditional prophecies about judgment/blessing operate differently than specific predictive words 4. Fantasy-prone personalities are more susceptible to self-deception in spiritual experiences 5. The burden of proof for cessationism lies with those claiming biblical commands no longer apply 6. Character assessment should weigh more heavily than gifting when evaluating spiritual leaders ### 📊 Methodology - Historical analysis of prophetic movements and their leaders' character patterns - Textual analysis of biblical passages on conditional vs. unconditional prophecy - Case studies of how different communities handled leadership scandals - Survey research on how fantasy-prone personalities interpret spiritual experiences - Longitudinal studies of movements that successfully reformed vs. those that didn't ### ❓ Questions - What specific investigative standards should apply before religious leaders endorse others? - How can communities distinguish between leaders who made mistakes versus those with patterns of deception? - What role should restorative justice play in addressing spiritual leadership failures? - How do we balance openness to spiritual experiences with proper skepticism? ### 🔮 Future Research - Develop frameworks for evaluating prophetic accuracy claims across different contexts - Study the long-term effects of authoritarian spiritual leadership on community health - Research psychological factors that make individuals susceptible to spiritual manipulation - Analyze successful models of community accountability in religious organizations ### 💡 Implications **Practice:** Churches need clear policies for investigating leaders before public endorsements; communities should establish accountability mechanisms that don't rely solely on hierarchical authority. **Policy:** Religious organizations should develop transparent processes for handling misconduct allegations; legal frameworks should protect both accusers and accused during investigations. **Education:** Believers need training in biblical discernment principles; leaders require ongoing accountability structures and character assessment. **Security:** Vulnerable populations (especially youth) need additional protections in religious contexts; warning systems should be established for known predators moving between organizations. ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Grade 12-13 (Flesch-Kincaid). Complex theological concepts and extended dialogue format. #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Timestamps, clear section breaks, structured Q&A format - Improve: Decision trees for evaluating leaders, comparison charts of biblical vs. modern prophets #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Original audio/video format, conversational tone - Improve: Chapter markers, audio summaries of key principles #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Detailed definitions, biblical analogies, clear explanations of terminology - Improve: Glossary of charismatic terms, plain-language summaries of complex concepts #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Step-by-step analysis, practical application questions - Improve: Assessment checklists, hands-on discernment exercises #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Systematic categorization of leader types, clear if-then reasoning - Improve: Flowcharts for accountability decisions, logical frameworks for evaluation #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community discussion format, multiple perspectives - Improve: Discussion guides, peer review processes for evaluating leaders #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Detailed notes, individual reflection questions - Improve: Self-assessment tools, personal study guides #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Organic conversation flow, real-world examples - Improve: Case studies from nature, ecosystem metaphors for healthy communities ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, timestamps as links - Improve: Alt text for any graphics, ARIA labels for complex sections #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard web navigation, logical tab order - Improve: Skip links to major sections, keyboard shortcuts for timestamp navigation #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard text formatting, clear section breaks - Improve: Higher contrast options, larger text sizing options #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive design accommodates zoom - Improve: Better line height at high zoom levels, prevent horizontal scrolling #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided, original video has captions - Improve: Time-synced transcript, downloadable text version #### Forms and interactions - Present: Simple navigation, clear structure - Improve: Better error handling for broken links, accessible feedback forms ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: American Protestant context clearly specified - Improve: Acknowledge cultural specificity, provide global perspective on accountability #### Inclusive language - Present: Gender-neutral references where possible, defined technical terms - Improve: Plain-language alternatives for theological jargon, cultural context notes #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear structure, logical flow, detailed explanations - Improve: Visual breaks between concepts, predictable formatting patterns #### Representation - Present: Multiple male perspectives, various denominational backgrounds - Improve: Include women's voices on spiritual abuse, diverse cultural perspectives #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful treatment of serious topics, validation of victims - Improve: Content warnings for discussions of abuse, trauma-informed language ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - **Deductive strength:** Clear biblical exegesis on conditional prophecy (Jeremiah 18 passage) - **Inductive reasoning:** Pattern recognition in evaluating leader credibility based on knowledge/disclosure - **Analogical reasoning:** Effective comparison between Old Testament judges and modern leaders #### Fallacies - **Ad hominem avoided:** Focus on patterns of behavior rather than personal attacks on Bickle - **False dilemma avoided:** Multiple categories for evaluating endorsing leaders rather than binary guilty/innocent - **Appeal to authority balanced:** Biblical authority cited but not used to shut down legitimate questions #### Tone of voice - **Conversational yet serious:** Maintains gravity of abuse allegations while remaining accessible - **Charitable but firm:** Extends grace where appropriate while maintaining clear moral standards ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis Limited DARVO elements present, as hosts maintain victim-focused perspective: - **Deny:** No denial of abuse allegations; hosts take them seriously - **Attack:** No attacks on accusers; criticism focused on perpetrators and enablers - **Reverse victim/offender:** No reversal attempted; clear identification of victims vs. perpetrators The discussion models healthy responses to abuse allegations by centering victim experience and maintaining accountability focus. ## 🎯 Conclusion This discussion demonstrates the complexity of spiritual discernment while providing practical frameworks for evaluation. The key insight is that false prophets are identified not primarily by prophetic accuracy but by their tendency to lead people away from Christ. The conversation models how to balance grace with accountability, extending charity where appropriate while maintaining clear standards for spiritual leadership. For readers, the practical next steps involve developing personal discernment skills, supporting accountability structures in their communities, and learning to distinguish between leaders who occasionally err versus those with patterns of deception and spiritual manipulation. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### Biblical standards for evaluating prophetic ministry require character assessment > [!quote] [Kansas City Prophets Q&A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHjBdbl__K8) by [[Joshua Lewis]], [[Michael Miller]] via [[Remnant Radio]]. Published 2024. Accessed 2024-12-19. > "False prophets lead people away from Christ, not just those who get predictions wrong." Context: Discussion of how to define false prophets biblically versus popular usage. Useful for establishing evaluation criteria. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHjBdbl__K8&t=165) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_001 ### Leadership endorsements without investigation damage credibility proportionally > [!quote] [Kansas City Prophets Q&A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHjBdbl__K8) > "When Bill Johnson endorses Bob Jones knowing his sexual misconduct, credibility should be shot to pieces." Context: Accountability discussion for leaders who vouch for problematic figures. Relevant for church governance. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHjBdbl__K8&t=735) #xref ID:rw_002 --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) #### Conditional prophecies operate differently than predictive words - National judgments can be altered by repentance (Jeremiah 18) - Pointer to timestamp discussion of Jonah/Nineveh - Links: [[Prophetic-Ministry]] [[Divine-Judgment]] #### Character patterns matter more than isolated incidents for leadership - Distinguish between mistakes and patterns of deception - Pointer to Mike Bickle credibility assessment - Links: [[Leadership-Accountability]] [[Spiritual-Discernment]] --- ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue - Develop accountability framework for spiritual leaders — context/prophetic-ministry #fleeting #inbox - Research biblical vs. charismatic definitions of false prophet — context/theological-study #fleeting #inbox - Create decision tree for evaluating leader endorsements — context/church-governance #fleeting #inbox --- ## Full Transcript [00:03] Welcome back to the world, the internet [00:04] radio. My name is Joshua Lewis. This is [00:06] Michael Miller and today we're going to [00:08] be answering your questions from our [00:10] latest live stream. You guys stay tuned. [00:11] It's a road program. [00:15] I can tell you try to hit that intro [00:17] button. [00:19] You probably cutting this guy off. [00:21] Michael's running the show, so we'll see [00:22] how it goes. He's running it from his [00:24] laptop today. So, we're we're running [00:26] through these questions. [00:28] Why are you in my studio? [00:30] >> I am helping record [00:34] the greatest new ecourse ever created. [00:37] We are re-recording our introduction to [00:39] spiritual gifts ecourse, adding all new [00:41] content and maintaining some old content [00:44] and elaborating on that content. Just [00:47] making it better, [00:48] >> beefier. The the original ITSG was [00:51] filmed. [00:51] >> We're both a little more beefy than we [00:53] used to be and therefore it has to be [00:56] beefier. [00:56] >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean the content was [00:57] filmed in 2020. I think we actually [00:58] released it in 21, like 2021. And [01:03] >> I You've lost all your hair since then. [01:06] And I've gained all this hair since [01:07] then. Yeah. [01:08] >> Yeah. That's very impressive. [01:09] >> That's how that happened. [01:11] >> Yeah. So, man, today we are doing Q&A [01:15] some sense and the questions that have [01:17] come in from our last live stream. We [01:19] did a live stream on the Kansas City [01:21] profits talking about the rise and fall [01:23] of the Kansas City profits using Sam [01:25] Storm's book as a launching pad and I [01:28] figured we'll just kind of run through [01:30] it. I'll ask you a question, you ask me [01:32] a question. We've got a list of people's [01:33] questions here on the right. [01:36] Then we'll find a clever way to display [01:38] them. [01:38] >> So, we can go we'll go through their [01:39] questions and then just if you and I [01:41] have questions for each other. [01:42] >> Yeah. [01:43] >> Okay. Cool. [01:44] >> Easy peasy. I'll start off with is it [01:47] Weston Reiner maybe 7264 asks how many [01:52] false prophecies does someone have to [01:54] give before they're a false prophet. [01:59] >> The tough thing is the Bible doesn't [02:00] actually give us an answer on that. [02:04] >> Do you have an answer? Do you have a [02:05] scriptural answer for that? [02:07] >> Well, I'm going to I'm going to use [02:08] >> everything would be inferential is my [02:09] guess, [02:10] >> right? I think maybe this question is [02:11] partially birthed by the clip that we [02:14] released on the internets where you and [02:16] I are talking about Bob Jones and asking [02:18] the question if Bob Jones is a false [02:20] prophet. [02:22] >> After clearly having moral failures, [02:24] after clearly getting prophetic words [02:26] wrong, Justin Peters jumped on there and [02:28] was like, "How how can you guys not be [02:30] 100% sure? You were I put percentages on [02:33] things saying you were in the 80%, I [02:34] might be in the 95%." [02:36] >> Yeah, we we both pretty much think he's [02:37] the most problem. Both [02:38] >> think he's a bad guy. [02:40] What the question really comes down to [02:41] is how we're using the word false [02:43] prophet. I think the way that Weston [02:45] might be using the phrase and the way [02:46] that we're using the phrase is [02:47] different. I think Won might be using [02:50] the phrase to say someone who claims to [02:52] be a prophet and they are in fact not a [02:54] prophet. You would go that would make [02:55] them a false prophet. The way I'm using [02:57] the word false prophet is the same way I [03:00] would use the language of a false [03:01] teacher. The Bible never refers to a [03:03] false prophet or a false teacher as a [03:05] true professing believer that got [03:07] something wrong. So, we see Nathan in [03:10] the Old Testament. He tells David, "Hey, [03:13] the Lord is with you. Go build the [03:14] temple." And he's not answering that [03:16] question as an interior decorator. He's [03:18] answering that question as the court [03:19] prophet. Goes home, sleeps on it. God [03:20] speaks to him. And he realized, man, I I [03:23] presume to understand what the Lord is [03:24] saying. I'm sorry, David. He goes and [03:26] tells David. David, you know, doesn't [03:28] build the temple in response to what [03:30] Nathan is saying, i.e. what the Lord is [03:32] saying. But Nathan isn't called a false [03:34] prophet from that moment moving on. [03:36] Every time we use the language of false [03:37] prophet in scripture, Old Testament and [03:39] New Testament, it's someone outside of [03:40] the covenant family. So, I'm not taking [03:43] the metric of some whether someone was a [03:45] false prophet or not solely based on the [03:48] accuracy or inaccuracy of their [03:49] prophecy. I'm typically using the [03:52] language of false prophet for someone [03:53] who leads the people of God away from [03:55] Yahweh in practice or doctrine. [03:57] >> Yeah. I mean, you could just as quickly [03:59] ask the question, how many things do you [04:01] have to teach that are wrong before [04:03] you're called a false teacher? And I'd [04:06] go, well, it again, it's it's not about [04:08] necessarily is every teaching that you [04:10] have right or wrong. It's it's the [04:13] question of are you teaching things that [04:15] are going to lead people away from [04:17] Christ rather than to him. If you're [04:20] teaching things that are going to lead [04:21] people away from Christ, like likely [04:23] what Himaeus and Alexander were doing in [04:25] Ephesus when Paul tolds Timothy to or [04:27] when Paul says that he's handed them [04:28] over to Satan to Timothy, they were [04:31] teaching legalistic things like the [04:33] forbiddens of marriage, the forbidden [04:34] certain foods. They were basically [04:36] creating a new legal system for those [04:38] who believed in Ephesus to truly be [04:40] saved by. And so that would be a false [04:42] teaching. We're saved by grace through [04:44] faith, not through the absence of [04:47] certain foods or the [04:50] uh unwillingness to get married. [04:52] >> Yeah, that's right. That seems that [04:54] seems fair. And you and I don't know. [04:57] >> No, I just think it's important we [04:59] recognize there's not like a particular [05:00] track record where we go now this person [05:02] is a false prophet. It's are what we're [05:05] looking for is are they leading you away [05:07] from Christ rather than to him. Are they [05:09] leading you away from faithfulness to [05:11] the covenant or are they leading you to [05:13] faithfulness to the covenant? That's [05:15] what we're asking. [05:16] >> Yeah. Fair. Okay. Trisha, why do you use [05:21] a picture of John Paul Jackson on the [05:22] thumbnail? Michael, why'd you do that? [05:24] >> I don't know. I He's a very handsome [05:28] man, and I just thought people should [05:30] see those dazzling eyes. Well, the way [05:32] you should have answered that, not as a [05:35] false co-host, but as a is to say I [05:38] didn't make the graphic, Josh. You made [05:39] >> I didn't make the graphic. Yes, that's [05:42] correct. [05:42] >> So, I I made that graphic and the the [05:45] episode was on the rise and fall of the [05:48] Kansas City prophets, [05:49] >> of which John Paul Jackson [05:51] >> was. Now, that doesn't mean that he is [05:52] immoral like the other guys were. It's [05:54] unfortunate that a high percentage of [05:58] the Kansas City prophets lived reprobate [06:00] lives, [06:01] >> but I don't think John Paul Jackson did. [06:03] >> I don't think he did. [06:04] >> I I do think he got caught up in I can't [06:08] remember. No, it was Kim Clement who got [06:09] caught up in the financial stuff. The [06:11] whole Iraqi dinar thing that John Mark [06:13] Baker exposed. I I think John Paul [06:15] Jackson got a lot of like global words [06:18] inaccurate and wrong. I think he should [06:20] have stuck to making prophecy local [06:24] because I do think his individual [06:25] prophetic words or ministry was at [06:28] large. You know, he had a high high [06:30] percentage of at bats there did well. So [06:34] So next question that comes in curious [06:36] how you apply the biblical story of [06:37] Samson the mic receiving revelation in [06:40] Egypt while in sin. The the claim here [06:43] or the question here is really rooted in [06:44] the fact that Mike Bickl goes to Egypt, [06:48] encounters the Lord, says while he's [06:50] there, he got he has this like big [06:52] vision, these very specific things that [06:53] God tells him like don't neglect the [06:55] poor, various other things that he's [06:57] told. I think worship was like [06:59] >> part of it. I [07:00] >> I don't recall. All the information can [07:02] be found in the last video that we did. [07:04] >> That can be found in Sam's book, too. [07:06] >> But how could how could we we asked the [07:08] question? Is this really is this honest? [07:10] Is this true? Is this really happening? [07:12] Did God really speak to Mike Bickl in [07:13] this situation knowing that at the time? [07:15] I think it was Was it Tammy Woods is her [07:17] name? 14-year-old who he was actively [07:19] grooming, [07:21] >> actively molesting. I think it was [07:22] already it already happened. Yeah. [07:23] >> So, you know, how how is this guy [07:26] participating in sexual immorality and [07:28] God speaking to him about what he's [07:29] supposed to do and I hop at the same [07:30] time? Sam writes that he is skeptical [07:32] that that's the case. I said, "Yeah, I [07:35] agree. That's I would be skeptical of [07:36] that, too." He's saying, "Well, look, [07:39] Samson was a perverse and wicked man and [07:42] God used him." [07:44] A couple things on Samson. [07:47] I don't think that this undermines the [07:49] other. Samson was called from infancy. [07:53] He was I don't even think had been [07:55] conceived yet. when the angel of the [07:57] Lord comes to his parents and says, "I [08:00] will I'll give you life and I'll because [08:02] I'm pretty sure that was one of the [08:03] languages the language that was used [08:04] there prophesying Samson's birth and [08:06] that he'd be a deliverer in some [08:08] meaningful sense." And there was [08:10] commands given to his parents on how he [08:11] was to behave, but he was still going to [08:13] be a deliverer. Now, the life of Samson [08:16] was not a life of worship unto God. It [08:18] was a life of rebellion. [08:20] >> In fact, that's actually the problem [08:21] with almost all of the judges. And you [08:23] see, it gets progressively worse. They [08:25] all end up being very reprobate people [08:28] that had supernatural power and God used [08:32] them in supernatural ways. And so, I [08:34] mean, you could compare the two, but one [08:36] doesn't necessitate the other. I just [08:39] tend to think that Mike was a liar from [08:41] day one. And so, if he was lying about [08:43] all of these other things, why not lying [08:45] about various prophetic experiences he [08:47] claimed to have? [08:48] So, I don't know if it's necessarily, [08:50] you know, I wouldn't dismiss his Egypt [08:53] prophetic experience just because of the [08:56] Tammy Woods, though. I think you could [08:58] and maybe even should, but I would also [09:00] dismiss it because of all of the [09:02] numerous lies he had told all throughout [09:04] his life, which makes me question [09:06] anything he said. [09:07] >> There's no way I would. [09:08] >> Yeah. There's just no way to to know [09:10] what was a lie and what wasn't other [09:11] than the fact that he has a track record [09:13] of lies. to have a grandiose message of [09:16] like changing the world and changing the [09:17] church based off of his life in [09:20] >> one generation. Yeah, [09:21] >> that seems a little too good to be true. [09:24] So, here's the thing. Someone goes, [09:26] "Hey, God used evil and sinful people in [09:28] the Old Testament." I go, "Yeah, sure." [09:30] But also, there's a sniff test, and I [09:33] don't want us to look at these very rare [09:36] and unusual passages as a way to kind of [09:39] like prevent us from using and [09:41] exercising any form of discernment. [09:43] That's right. But hang out there. [09:45] >> Well, I think that the other part of it [09:46] is at the time of Israel when all of [09:48] this was happening, the whole nation was [09:50] pretty apostate during the time of [09:52] Judges. Like they had all, you know, [09:54] it's like they they were brought over [09:56] into the land of Canaan with Moses. Then [09:58] Joshua leads them into victory in the [10:00] land of Canaan. And then after Joshua, [10:03] everything goes exactly wayward. [10:05] Everything Moses told them not to do in [10:06] Deuteronomy, they eventually did. And [10:08] everything Moses tells them to do, they [10:10] failed to do. And you see it playing out [10:12] in Judges. And so the other question is [10:16] in Israel at the time of the judges, God [10:19] only had really sinful people to use. [10:22] And yet he was still able to accomplish [10:24] his purposes even with sinful people. [10:26] And that's actually all throughout the [10:27] scriptures. He uses Babylon. He uses [10:30] Assyria. He uses Egypt. So he uses [10:32] wicked people all the time to accomplish [10:34] his purposes. I think the difference [10:36] between a Mike Bickl and a Samson is the [10:38] fact that there are a lot of really [10:39] righteous people today that are [10:40] faithfully following Christ that God [10:42] could use. I don't think he necessarily [10:44] needed to use Mike Bickl. [10:47] >> Yeah. Matt Chandler has this interesting [10:48] phrase that he uses when he talks about [10:50] revelation. What it did not mean for [10:52] them then it cannot mean for us now. And [10:56] I I there is a question on okay when the [11:01] book of judges is written was the aim of [11:04] the author and the the reception of the [11:08] people who received that book were they [11:10] going well this book is trying to prove [11:13] that sinful people are used by God is [11:16] that the aim of the book I would say I [11:18] don't think so I think the aim of the [11:20] book is to say there's a judge who's to [11:21] come and none of these are them [11:23] >> right oh there's a king who's to come [11:25] and we haven't seen that king. Yeah. The [11:27] aim of the book is to point to Christ. [11:29] And then we have these passages in the [11:31] New Testament that are like, "Hey, this [11:32] is what your godly leaders should look [11:33] like in Titus and Timothy and Hayden." [11:36] >> Well, you have it in Deuteronomy 17 and [11:38] 18 as well. Like even like here's what a [11:40] righteous king looks like. Here's what [11:41] an unrighteous king looks like. [11:43] >> So it it describes these things in great [11:45] detail. And then when people go, okay, [11:46] what does a godly leader look like? [11:48] Well, they go, "Well, hey, look, these [11:49] guys are used by God." Used by God is [11:52] not the question we asked. The question [11:54] we asked was, "What does a godly leader [11:57] look like?" And when a leader is not [12:00] walking in step with the gospel and [12:02] they're walking outside of their [12:04] qualifications as a leader by living in [12:06] unrepentant rampant sin, we come on the [12:09] scene and we go, "Oh, hey, look, we need [12:11] to we need to get them out of there." [12:14] So, a lot of people, and I'm not saying [12:15] this is what's happening here with SOS3. [12:19] >> Yeah. He's he's not trying to make an [12:20] appeal that we should trust Bickl [12:21] despite his sin. Yeah. [12:22] >> Yeah. He's looking, hey, look at David. [12:24] God used David after he fell. He used [12:25] Samson after he fell. He's not saying [12:27] that. Some people have, but I just want [12:29] to be clear what it doesn't mean to [12:30] them. Then I don't think we should take [12:32] it to mean for us. Now, the aim of the [12:34] text is to show us, man, these are bad [12:36] leaders. This is what a bad leader looks [12:38] like. And hey, look, Christ is coming. [12:40] They're just a shadow trying to point to [12:42] the substance. So, I would say, hey, [12:46] that that's not qualification for those [12:48] who want to make that thing. You want to [12:50] do the next one? [12:51] >> Sure. This is from Christa Ericson 777. [12:54] She asks or I'm assuming she if [12:57] prophetic words cannot be taken at face [12:59] value, what is the value of prophecy? [13:02] >> That's a good question. [13:04] >> If prophetic words cannot be taken at [13:06] face value, what is the value of [13:07] prophecy? There's a couple ways to ask [13:09] answer that question. What does it mean [13:11] when she says face value? There's a [13:13] couple of things that come to mind. One [13:16] is like is a prophetic word. It's not [13:18] plain. It's not easy to understand. [13:20] Well, I I kind of wonder I think I'm [13:23] guessing that this person is asking [13:25] about the kind of prophetic words where [13:27] people keep moving the goalpost. [13:29] >> God showed me in 2020 stadiums going to [13:31] be filled. There's going to be filled [13:32] there's going to be a nationwide [13:33] revival. I'm sorry, I just got the [13:35] timing wrong. And so they they move the [13:37] goalpost. She So this person's probably [13:40] asking like if I can't trust that at [13:42] face value, then what's the point of [13:44] prophecy? Like it doesn't allow me to [13:45] actually made any kind of guiding [13:47] decisions or to know anything that's [13:49] going to happen. if I can't take it at [13:50] face value. And I would actually agree [13:53] in some sense with you. I think that [13:54] there are things like that that need to [13:57] be taken at face value. And if you [13:59] can't, there is no value of prophecy. I [14:02] think that most of what God says is [14:04] meant to be taken at face value. Just [14:06] depends also what you mean on that [14:08] because there are things that God [14:09] reveals that are highly symbolic and [14:11] that's where we can make [14:12] misinterpretation. But that's God's [14:14] prerogative, not ours. He's the one who [14:16] says in Numbers 12, "If there's a [14:18] prophet, I'll reveal myself him to him [14:20] in a dream or in a vision. I'll speak [14:22] mysteries, dark riddles. Not so with [14:25] Moses. With him, I speak face to face." [14:27] So, if you mean by face value that it [14:29] has to be like a face tof face encounter [14:31] with God, otherwise it's no value at [14:33] all. I'd go, I don't know if I want to [14:34] tell God that. That's how God chose to [14:37] do things. Uh I would I wish he would [14:39] speak to us all face to face, but that's [14:41] not how he chose to do it. You and I [14:43] both have a friend who received a what [14:46] he believed to be a prophetic word, but [14:48] he also acknowledges he didn't know what [14:50] the meaning was. Some of the symbolism [14:52] seemed pretty clear to [14:55] >> oh certain events. I'm not going to I'm [14:57] not going to out them at this moment, [14:59] but they [15:00] >> we definitely should though. [15:02] >> They understood it to mean when they had [15:04] finished writing their book. But one [15:06] could also go, well, did the dream [15:08] explicitly say that? Did the vision [15:09] explicitly say that? Could it have been [15:10] when the book was published? So, I think [15:13] there it is fair to say we know in part [15:15] we prophesy in part. I would not be [15:18] releasing [15:18] >> I thought you were talking about the the [15:20] motorcycle word. Oh, [15:21] >> that you and I are both going. [15:24] >> Yeah. [15:24] >> Sounds like the Lord's saying don't ride [15:26] a motorcycle. You'll get an accident. [15:27] Yeah. [15:28] >> So, that's a story from Michael [15:29] Roundtree. Michael, you know, tells a [15:32] joke. Oh, we joke about it, but yeah. [15:34] He's like there's a he has a a picture [15:37] of his motorcycle in the garage in the [15:39] hand of God penning a sticky note to it [15:42] and it says Michael's death and it gives [15:44] him the date that he would die on a [15:45] motorcycle and Michael's like what does [15:47] it [15:49] mean? [15:50] >> We're both like [15:52] >> don't ride the motorcycle. Yeah. Like [15:54] this is not something you should do. Now [15:56] both of us know that he's a bad driver [15:58] as well. Like he can be very absent [16:00] minded. [16:02] The last thing he should be doing is [16:03] driving a motorcycle. [16:04] >> I'm not a great driver. I'm not claiming [16:06] to be the world's greatest driver. [16:07] >> I'm glad we're doing this while he's not [16:08] here, too. This is great. Yeah. [16:10] >> I remember when we were in in Kansas [16:12] City was me and Jeff Tiner and Nate, his [16:15] youth pastor at the time, and we were we [16:17] were driving. We got off the highway. [16:19] He's driving his wife's car. I'm pretty [16:20] sure that's how he's driving. And we're [16:22] in this in this lane, and I go, "Hey, [16:24] Michael, this isn't a lane. This is the [16:26] shoulder. [16:26] >> This is not good angles." He goes, "No, [16:28] no, it's a lane." like, "Oh, Michael, if [16:31] it's just the shoulder because trust me, [16:33] it's a lane." And then it the rubbing [16:35] just ends. It's just dirt. Like, okay, [16:39] it's not a lane. What makes it funny is [16:41] that the next day he's in the same lane. [16:45] And I go, "Michael, this isn't a lane." [16:47] And he goes, "No, no, no. This isn't the [16:49] lane. [16:51] No, it's the shoulder." He did it twice. [16:54] Hysterical. [16:55] >> Back to back. [16:56] >> This is the best time to throw Michael. [16:57] >> Oh, yeah. Totally. [16:59] Let's go to the next question. [17:00] >> Okay. [17:01] >> A random boxing guy asks, "How do you [17:04] handle all the leaders who said things [17:05] like, "God told me what an honorable man [17:08] Mike Bickl is." [17:11] >> God told me what an honorable man Mike [17:13] Bickl is. [17:14] >> I don't know a whole line of people who [17:15] are saying that, but let's just pretend [17:16] they exist. How would you handle it? [17:19] >> I that wouldn't mean anything to me. [17:21] Yeah, I would say I would be suspicious [17:25] of those people and thinking that God [17:27] probably didn't tell them that and what [17:29] is actually happening is that they [17:30] wanted to give lip service and be [17:32] platformed by someone who has leverage [17:34] and influence. I would have suspicion. [17:36] >> I mean, I think a and no offense to [17:38] random boxing guy, but I think a better [17:40] question would be what do I do with the [17:43] people who vouched for Mike Pickle? [17:45] >> Sure. [17:46] >> Who then were deeply wrong? One of them [17:47] being Sam Storms. [17:48] >> Yeah. [17:49] >> Our friend Sam Storms. I would say in [17:50] some sense we probably vouched [17:53] >> probably on some level probably. [17:54] >> No, we absolutely did. No, no, no. We We [17:57] shared the prophetic. That's right. I [17:59] think absolutely. [18:00] >> Yeah. [18:01] >> I I didn't do that. But that doesn't [18:03] mean And I'm not looking at you guys [18:04] like how dare you. [18:06] >> I just meant remnant, not you and me. [18:08] You're equally guilty for the mine. [18:12] >> I mean, here's the thing, though. I [18:13] could have pushed against it harder. I [18:14] could have said, "Hey, I have a problem [18:16] with their ecclesiology. Hey, I've seen [18:17] this prayer room vision thing really [18:20] destroy people's lives. [18:21] >> Sure. [18:21] >> I I could have pushed much harder. So I [18:24] So anyway, we're asking a question [18:26] you're not asking here, but I think it's [18:27] a good question to ask. What do you do [18:29] with people that vouch for someone who [18:32] ends up having bad character? [18:35] What do you think? [18:38] It depends on what level of knowledge [18:39] they had. So, I think it's one thing for [18:43] an average person at IHOP who knew Bob [18:45] Jones and and they go, "Hey, I think Bob [18:47] Jones is a good guy." And they don't [18:49] know anything about him. I think it's [18:50] another thing for, I don't know, someone [18:53] like James G who knows about a third [18:57] account of sexual misconduct where the [18:59] other people didn't know about any of [19:00] the accounts of misconduct and is asked, [19:02] "Hey, what do you think about [19:03] >> you're talking about Ron Caner's newest [19:06] revelation?" Yeah. video exposes that [19:08] there was a third woman that Bob Jones [19:11] had prayed upon and [19:12] >> which also begs the question there may [19:13] be more and even more people who knew [19:15] about others. I mean there's no telling [19:17] but that's that it ends up ruining their [19:19] credibility when they know something and [19:20] they don't bring it forward. [19:22] >> Yeah. [19:22] >> So I mean there's one thing about [19:24] someone who vouches for someone that [19:25] they know like Bob Bob Jones Bill [19:28] Johnson on set at TBN with Chris Reid [19:31] knows he has pleasured himself in front [19:33] of [19:33] >> Sean B is not Chris Reed. [19:34] >> I'm so sorry. Yeah, that's liable. I [19:37] didn't mean to do that. Hey, look, [19:39] editing. When Bill Johnson jumps on the [19:42] scene with [19:44] Shawn BS and says, "Man, this book is so [19:47] great. It's like a little slice of [19:48] heaven." When you know the character of [19:49] the man who wrote it now, that person's [19:52] credibility should be shot to pieces. I [19:54] mean, blown [19:55] >> because they they knew [19:56] >> they knew better [19:57] >> and then they lied publicly. [20:00] >> So, I think the other thing that I would [20:01] also consider So, there's there's [20:02] different categories, right? You've got [20:04] the the person there's no way they could [20:05] have known. Okay. And I'm probably not [20:08] going to be too harsh on that person. Um [20:11] the person who definitely knew and had [20:14] no problem vouching for the person [20:16] despite knowing all the bad they did. [20:18] Then there's a third person. This is the [20:20] person who could have known to a certain [20:22] degree. And that's where the muddies get [20:24] muddies get watered. The water gets [20:26] really muddied. [20:27] >> True. [20:28] And that's I think a lot of the [20:29] criticism that's come Sam ways Sam's [20:32] Storm's way is that he could have known. [20:33] He should have known. And I just go I [20:35] don't know. I I really don't know the [20:37] answer to that. [20:38] >> I do know like if somebody vouches for [20:40] me or sorry somebody vouches for a [20:42] business guy and I'm going to enter in [20:44] I'm thinking about doing a a business [20:45] arrangement and this other person refers [20:47] them and then later I find out that this [20:49] person was a total fraud and crook and [20:51] then I go to my friend who vouched for [20:53] him. I'm like dude how could you vouch [20:54] for this guy? and they go and I go, [20:57] "What all research did you did?" Say, [20:59] "Oh, we just hung out once." That that's [21:02] not how you vouch for somebody. [21:04] >> Yeah. [21:04] >> So, it's really going to be dependent [21:06] upon what they could have known and what [21:09] they actually intentionally looked into [21:11] versus didn't look into. [21:12] >> Well, there there has almost different [21:13] lines, too, because you mentioned the [21:15] person who [21:17] who gave an endorsement and watched [21:19] closely but still didn't know. the [21:21] person who was like responsible for [21:24] handing fin handling finances and were [21:27] maybe willfully negligent when they saw [21:30] numbers missing. [21:31] >> They didn't look into it. So, they [21:32] didn't technically know, but they should [21:33] have known. [21:34] >> Yeah, they should have known. Well, I'm [21:34] going to hold that person more [21:35] responsible for sure. [21:36] >> Person more responsible. And then the [21:37] person who definitely knew and still [21:38] endorsed. [21:39] >> But but you just introduced a fourth [21:41] category. If if I caught it carefully, [21:44] which is a person who has no business [21:46] endorsing someone's character in [21:47] doctrine who doesn't know anything about [21:49] them, it would be [21:50] >> Yeah, I guess that's a different Yeah. [21:51] >> would be like me saying, "Oh, hey, [21:53] there's this Pentecostal guy that I've [21:55] never heard before, but he seems nice." [21:57] So, yeah, he's a man of God. [21:58] >> That's almost every book that's come out [22:00] from, you know, certain publishing [22:02] company. almost every charismatic [22:04] >> because they all just like put their [22:05] stamp of approval on each other's books, [22:07] on each other's content, [22:09] >> and just don't even think to look into [22:12] their character at all. [22:13] >> Yeah. [22:13] >> And then they they whitewash it later [22:15] on, scrub it from their records, pretend [22:16] like they never did what they did. [22:18] >> Yeah. I think I think we have to be [22:19] careful to make sure which category [22:22] someone fits in. And I think we need [22:24] Christian charity to help determine some [22:25] of that. [22:26] >> Yeah. Wisdom. Walk with wisdom. Sorry, [22:28] that's not a very helpful answer. [22:30] Streams of Stillwaters asks raises the [22:34] question on whether many spiritual [22:36] stories could simply be psychological [22:39] phenomenon like fantasy prone [22:42] personalities [22:44] distorting memories over time. I I think [22:45] they're really asking [22:46] >> I should make the dyslexic guy read the [22:48] >> the very multi-yabolic [22:50] >> Yeah. Yeah. [22:50] >> thing. You're doing such a good job [22:52] saying that again. [22:53] >> Yeah, there you go. [22:54] >> Speaking. [22:58] >> So, I raised the question of whether [22:59] many [23:00] Many supernatural stories could simply [23:03] be psychological phenomena like [23:05] fantasyprone [23:07] >> personalities distorting memories or [23:09] >> over time. So the idea I think that is [23:11] being asked here that's kind of a [23:13] complicated question the way it's worded [23:15] >> and I think actually maybe AI has [23:18] reframed that question. [23:20] >> Oh maybe [23:20] >> because it it's not framed. It doesn't [23:22] have the quote marks like all the other [23:23] quotes do. So I'm I'm thinking that it [23:25] it simplified the question. So, if I'm [23:27] going to read in between the lines of [23:29] this translation of an actual question, [23:30] I would have to say they're probably [23:32] asking about prophetic words that are [23:37] given specifically to personality types [23:39] maybe. [23:40] >> Well, prone to view this. [23:41] >> No, I think what it's asking are are the [23:44] so-called supernatural because it puts [23:46] it in quotes there question or [23:48] supernatural stories. Could it just be [23:51] simply people who are deranged or see [23:53] people people who are simply prone to [23:57] fantasies? They've got the kind of [23:59] personality where they can just see [24:01] things in their wild imagination. [24:03] >> Like I think of my kids like if I start [24:05] telling stories of casting out demons in [24:07] front of my kids, it could cause their [24:09] imaginations to run wild because kids [24:11] are prone to imagine things uh far more [24:14] so than we are as adults. [24:16] >> Distorting memories over time. I'm [24:18] thinking of the person who actually had [24:19] the vision or I'm thinking of the person [24:22] who heard it. [24:23] >> Well, they were already fantasy prone [24:25] and over time the the story changes. [24:28] >> Oh, I see. Oh, so like Oh, [24:31] >> it gets more and more Yeah, it gets more [24:32] more fantastic. [24:33] >> I tell it 600 times. I believe the [24:35] picture was that thing. [24:36] >> It's like the first time Rose this girl [24:39] who our ward came and stayed with us, [24:42] she was 14. But then I told people, [24:45] >> you had a ward? [24:46] >> Yeah. And she's awarded the state. [24:48] >> Oh, [24:48] >> yeah. Yeah. Guardians. [24:49] >> That's what that means. [24:50] >> Yeah. Yeah. She was Sorry, my bad. [24:52] >> It's okay. Not adopted, but we were her [24:55] legal guardians. [24:57] >> But, you know, I think actually she came [24:59] and moved in with us when she was 15. [25:01] And the first time she stayed with us [25:03] was when she was 14. But I told the [25:04] story enough times where I was like 14, [25:06] 14, 14. Like, hey, that didn't happen. [25:10] It simply did. It's like, no, no, no. [25:12] like you just you told the story enough [25:14] times wrong that that's that's what [25:16] happened. So [25:18] >> I mean I if if I was to answer the [25:20] question streams of still water I think [25:23] that's quite a possibility. There are [25:25] some people whose prophetic words I [25:27] don't always trust because they are [25:28] super fantasyprone kind of personalities [25:31] that they just see meaning in everything [25:34] and they tend to see a sign and wonder. [25:36] Oh uh like walking down the road I see [25:38] the street sign. And it says first that [25:41] means God tell me that I'm number one in [25:43] his book. Like no man that's not no [25:48] that's not God. [25:49] >> Said is 40. So I went to Isaiah 40. [25:51] >> Yeah. Do you see a lot of that though? I [25:53] mean I think there are people that are [25:56] that have that tendency and I think it's [25:58] perfectly right to raise that question [26:00] in the case of some of the stuff we hear [26:02] in Kansas City. I also think it's really [26:04] important for people to go out of their [26:06] way to make sure that they tell a [26:08] miracle story honestly and really try to [26:11] remember the information they're sharing [26:13] so they don't accidentally get prone to [26:14] that and then if and when corrected make [26:16] sure to make that clear to people that [26:18] they've told. [26:19] >> Yeah, [26:19] >> that's a that's a big deal. Okay, [26:23] back here. This is [26:25] what how would you pronounce that? [26:27] >> Lulu B. [26:28] >> Lulu D. [26:29] >> Lulu D. Dyslexic. [26:31] >> Dyslexic. Yeah. 1300 to ask, "It seems [26:33] like so many modern denominations have [26:37] roots to brennom. Can any of it be [26:40] redeemed or is it all rotten?" [26:44] >> Uh, [26:45] I don't know if that's actually true. [26:48] Like I can't see [26:49] >> actual denominations. Maybe streams of [26:51] charismatic. [26:52] >> Yeah, maybe streams of car because I'm [26:53] like Presbyterian church, Baptist [26:54] church. None of them have roots in [26:55] Brandommites. I mean so much of it is [26:58] rooted in the Protestant Reformation. [27:00] You got the Anabaptists, you've got [27:01] Lutheran, you've got Presbyterians and [27:05] the Scottish Reformation. I mean, you've [27:07] you've got the Dutch Reformed. None of [27:09] these denominations have anything to do [27:12] with Brandon. So, if you what you mean [27:14] by that is how many charismatic streams [27:16] have roots? Uh, yeah. I go, well, is it [27:20] quite a few? I don't actually know that [27:22] cuz like the Pentecostal denomination is [27:24] not rooted in brandomite. [27:25] >> No, you know, Assembly of God isn't. Uh, [27:28] I think there are a lot of modern-day [27:30] charismatic [27:33] communities that are whether they [27:34] realize it or not and the Latin [27:37] movement. [27:40] Can any of it be redeemed or is all of [27:42] it rotten? I don't know if a movement [27:44] can be redeemed. I mean, I think [27:47] anything can be redeemed because God [27:49] redeems people and movements are made up [27:52] of people. Now I the the thing about [27:55] these movements that makes them rotten [27:57] is the certain values that they have and [27:59] the unique beliefs that beliefs that [28:01] they have. For instance, a lot of the [28:03] latter rain movement believed that God [28:05] that they were part of an end time [28:06] esqueological movement that you know [28:09] they even called it the latter reign [28:10] because in Israel you have two reigns. [28:12] You have the early reigns and then you [28:14] have the latter reigns. And so they saw [28:16] early Pentecostal outpouring that [28:18] happened in Acts chapter 2 as the early [28:20] reigns. But these people in the latter [28:23] rain movement, they thought they were [28:24] now a part of this end time harvest. [28:27] This God pouring out his spirit in great [28:28] power latter rain movement. And so [28:33] how do you redeem movements that have [28:36] come out of that? Well, you walk away [28:38] from those bad doctrines that propagated [28:41] it. Same thing would be true with the [28:42] brandites. they were to walk away from [28:44] the unique manifest sons of God [28:47] doctrines, [28:48] then I would imagine you wouldn't have [28:51] necessarily that particular movement. [28:54] They would probably join something else [28:55] or come up with something else that [28:57] walks away and repents from that bad [28:58] belief system or value system. [29:01] >> Yeah. So, I think that's true. [29:02] >> That's a long answer. Sorry. [29:03] >> All kinds of things, you know, like [29:05] there there's a lot of Pentecostals [29:06] right now who are internally [29:11] here's the thing. I I don't want to [29:12] compare it to Pentecostalism in some [29:13] sense because there's the word redeemed. [29:15] It makes it sound like damned. And I [29:18] think Brandon probably fixed that box, [29:20] but when we talk about redeemed, it [29:22] makes people look completely lost. I [29:24] don't want to compare that to [29:24] Pentecostalism at large. But let's [29:26] pretend for a second we weren't taking [29:28] that high view because I think [29:30] Pentecostals are brothers and [29:31] >> Well, and in the case of the Brandomite [29:32] world, there was so much sexual [29:34] immorality, so much lying and fraud and [29:36] and that's probably what they mean. [29:37] Yeah. [29:37] >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh okay. So here here's what [29:39] I would say is like in a similar way you [29:41] know I've got Pentecostal brothers and [29:42] sisters who teach that the evidence of [29:44] speaking in tongues initial physical [29:47] evidence is [29:48] >> of the baptism of the spirit thing. Uh [29:49] yeah the second blessing evidence that [29:51] you have received a second blessing of [29:53] the Holy Spirit is evidenced by tongue [29:55] speak. [29:55] >> So they would say that and that has [29:57] caused people to like not be able to be [29:59] greeters the front of their church. [30:00] >> Yeah. They don't speak in tongues [30:02] >> because they can't serve you know the [30:03] community without power of the spirit. [30:05] Can't do missions. can't do a pastoring [30:07] or evangelism because they don't speak [30:08] in tongues because that's the sign that [30:10] you have power to be God's witnesses. I [30:12] think it's causing a lot of damage. And [30:13] you go, "Well, can that ever be [30:14] redeemed?" And I go, "Well, yeah, I [30:15] think so." Because there's lots of [30:16] Pentecostals now we're having [30:18] conversations internally, even the [30:19] assemblies, a lot of the younger guys [30:20] are like, "Well, [30:21] >> yeah, they'll say [30:22] >> a evidence, the evidence." And others [30:24] are going, I don't even know if it's a [30:26] evidence. I think faith is the evidence. [30:29] So I just say look it's totally [30:31] redeemable because if they are really [30:34] bought with the blood they really have [30:36] placed faith in Jesus the sons of God [30:38] are led by the spirit of God and each of [30:40] us are going to be called as Christians [30:42] to reexamine our presuppositions and [30:44] repent in areas where former generations [30:47] have got it wrong. So hopefully I mean [30:49] the call of the reformation is simp. [30:54] That's like part of what it means to be [30:55] Protestant. So [30:57] >> yeah. Yeah. So, we're always redeeming. [30:59] >> Yes. Things ourselves and movements. [31:02] Let's go to bald dad three boys. He [31:06] asks, "Because what Jonah prophesied [31:09] about in Nineveh didn't come to pass in [31:11] 40 days, was it a false prophecy?" Oo, [31:15] that's a great question. We've actually [31:17] answered this on a former podcast. [31:19] >> We have. I'm going to pull up this Bible [31:21] verse. [31:21] >> Well, here while you're looking that up, [31:22] I'll give some preliminary thoughts. So [31:24] when I think of the what happens in [31:26] Nineveh, Jonah comes and says in this [31:28] many days Nineveh will be overthrown. [31:30] Now remember Jonah didn't want to go [31:31] there. He didn't want God to extend [31:33] mercy to the Nvites. That's why he went [31:35] the opposite direction. So even when he [31:37] gave his word, the way he packaged it [31:39] was never a if you repent. But that is [31:42] exactly how God does things. He will [31:45] give conditional words when it comes to [31:46] judgment and or blessing. If a if he [31:50] decides to bless a particular nation or [31:53] church or people group and they go [31:56] apostate, well then he may decide to [31:58] withhold that blessing, which is the [32:00] point of the potter and the clay. And [32:02] then the same thing could be true on the [32:04] other side of it. If he brings about a [32:06] judgment, then the people of God repent. [32:09] Then God may stay his hand and pull back [32:11] the judgment that he was going to bring [32:12] upon that particular nation. So, the [32:14] words given to the Ninevites, I think, [32:16] were conditional despite the fact that [32:18] Jonah, who was a rather, you know, [32:20] sourhearted prophet, didn't package it [32:23] as a a conditional word. [32:25] >> Yeah. So, here's the passage in Jeremiah [32:27] 18. Uh, if at any time I declare [32:29] concerning the nation or a kingdom that [32:31] I will pluck up and break down or [32:33] destroy it, and if that nation [32:34] concerning which I have spoken turns [32:36] from its evil, I will relent from the [32:39] disaster that I intended to do to it. [32:41] And if at any time I declare concerning [32:43] a nation a kingdom, I will build up and [32:45] plant it and it does evil in my sight [32:47] and not listen to my voice, then I will [32:49] relent of the good that I intended to do [32:51] to it. Now therefore say to the men of [32:54] Judah and to the inhabitants of [32:55] Jerusalem, thus says the Lord, behold, I [32:57] am shaping disaster against you and [33:00] devising a plan against you. Return even [33:03] one from his everyone from his evil way [33:07] and amend your ways and your deeds. So [33:10] here in this text, we have Jeremiah [33:12] saying, if I said I will do good things [33:14] to you, God is saying through Jeremiah, [33:18] if I said I was going to do good things, [33:20] bad things, I might turn from the [33:22] blessing I was going to give you and [33:23] pour out judgment. If I say I'm going to [33:25] pour out judgment and then you repent [33:27] and you do good things, I might end up [33:29] disaster. So, so it seems as if those [33:31] national level words have within it an [33:33] intrinsic conditionality to it of [33:36] national level blessing, national level [33:38] destruction based on the faithfulness. [33:41] >> But you would imagine this could apply [33:42] to an individ individual as well, right? [33:45] >> I think [33:47] give me an example. [33:48] >> Well, I'm asking because it's a relevant [33:50] I'm asking because it's a a relevant [33:52] question that people are often bringing [33:55] today regarding Mike Bickl. Well, Mike [33:57] Bickl really did hear from God. He [33:59] really did get these revelations, but [34:01] then he did some really wicked things. [34:03] And so God changed his mind. [34:07] >> I don't see a text that I could point to [34:09] in scripture where that happened. [34:12] >> So [34:12] >> on an individual basis, [34:13] >> on an individual basis, I don't see it. [34:15] I think if we use that standard, I think [34:17] virtually every prophetic word then is [34:20] not controlled by the sovereignty of [34:22] God, but it's humans who allow that word [34:24] to come to pass or not. [34:27] >> Yeah, I can see what you mean by that. [34:28] So, [34:28] >> well, in either case with Mike Bickl, [34:30] >> yeah, [34:31] >> he was never good. [34:32] >> That's that's the big thing. He he was [34:34] never good. So, whatever blessing you [34:36] think God was going to bring to Mike [34:37] Bickl [34:38] >> and then he went south, it wasn't like [34:40] he went south. He was always south. [34:42] >> Here's the thing. Is it is it [34:43] foretelling or forthelling [34:47] in that passage? [34:48] >> Yeah. When we're talking about bringing [34:49] destruction and repenting, is it [34:51] foretelling or forthelling? [34:52] >> That does seem to be more of a [34:54] forthtelling. Well, I don't know. I [34:56] guess it is. It's a conditional. So [34:58] there is a foretelling like this is [34:59] going to happen and when they failed to [35:01] repent it doesn't happen right [35:03] >> I mean look you think what h happens to [35:05] Haniah the Lord has not sent you you've [35:07] counseledled rebellion against the Lord [35:09] and so you are going to die and then [35:12] Haniah dies in the seventh month of that [35:14] year which happens to be two months [35:16] later you know he had said there would [35:18] be two years of servitude in Babylon and [35:21] so God kills him two months later this [35:23] was sort of poetic justice here but it [35:26] was also to protect Israel in doing so. [35:28] There was no condition on that. Or maybe [35:31] if it was a condition just happened. [35:34] >> If I stood up, [35:35] >> you never repented. [35:36] >> Imagine if I stood up in church and I [35:39] looked across the audience and there [35:40] were believers and unbelievers just I [35:43] was in your church so mostly [35:44] unbelievers. [35:45] >> Right. Right. [35:45] >> I'm just kidding. The people who go to [35:47] Reclamation, [35:47] >> you know, you know a lot of them and [35:49] they're going to be very [35:50] >> actually [35:51] >> they're all saints. They really are. [35:53] Okay. So let let's just say I'm there [35:55] and I'm in a church and it's mostly [35:56] unbelievers and as I'm preaching I say [36:00] if you are present and you are an [36:03] unbeliever you are separated from the [36:06] love and the mercy and the grace of God [36:07] and the wrath of God abides on you and [36:11] your end is destruction. It will end in [36:13] hellfire and brimstone. Now would I call [36:16] those people to repent? Sure. But let's [36:17] just say power shut off tornado warning [36:20] happened. You know, I wasn't able to [36:23] call people trependants. I was just [36:24] gonna say, "Hey, [36:24] >> the microphone went out." [36:26] >> Yeah. Yeah. If you're an unbeliever, [36:28] you're going to hell. Is that a true [36:30] statement? Am I teaching truthfully? [36:32] >> Yes, I'm teaching truthfully. What if [36:34] that person then repented? Does that [36:35] make my truth claim untrue? [36:37] >> No. Right. It's like so so I'm I'm [36:41] asking that question. I mean, I think [36:43] this prophecy is functioning in that [36:44] same way. The prophecy is on [36:46] destruction. The prophecy on is on [36:47] blessing. And those two things are [36:49] contingent on someone walking out the [36:53] the the promises of God that regard. [36:56] >> Yeah. [36:57] >> So I I I'm maybe a little fuzzy on what [36:59] the T for works like. [37:00] >> So it just depends on what the [37:02] conditions are related to. [37:04] >> I think if someone says in three weeks [37:06] this will happen if [37:08] >> it doesn't happen for Yeah. Like I I [37:10] remember when I was in Bible schools [37:11] >> Well, God you you're the you're the [37:13] reason it didn't happen. [37:14] >> Well, [37:15] >> because that's what happens. I mean, [37:16] people will will do that. Like, if it [37:17] doesn't come to pass, well, actually, [37:19] the church just didn't pray enough. And [37:21] that's why Trump wasn't in office in [37:22] 2020. [37:23] >> Yeah. I went to a Bible school and had a [37:26] woman came to Bible school and she goes, [37:28] "You know, you're going to have an [37:29] encounter with the Lord in the next [37:30] three weeks containing Jesus." And I [37:32] have this encounter that even I was [37:34] seeking an encounter with the Lord. I [37:36] spent weeks praying and fasting and [37:38] spent a lot of time happened far as I [37:41] could tell. So I go that was a false [37:43] word that at the time. [37:45] >> Then of course you go to that person and [37:46] they gaslight you and blame So oh [37:49] >> yeah I guess figured no but but I I go [37:52] at the time I was like oh I must not [37:54] have thought the Lord now and I go [37:56] >> ah you blame yourself which is what [37:57] always happens with that. [37:58] >> Yeah. [37:58] >> So I just I go man that's I don't think [38:00] that's the way it works. That sounds [38:02] >> Yeah. So I think I think you're right. I [38:03] think the conditions have to be a [38:06] judgment and or a blessing that is [38:08] either withheld or given. And these [38:11] conditional words are given over [38:12] nations. I don't see a example. Maybe [38:14] there are others. You can point them to [38:16] me, find them in the Bible, as an email, [38:19] whatever. But what if Mike did get those [38:22] callings as grace is not by works? Yep, [38:26] that's true. But those who are sons of [38:28] God walk in accordance with the spirit [38:30] of God. I just say like if the Holy [38:33] Spirit is leading and guiding you, it's [38:34] because you're a son. And again, it's [38:37] hard to know where this guy was at [38:39] because I don't see any fruit of [38:40] preventive. [38:41] >> I guess the question is is maybe he was [38:43] an unbeliever and he had that calling. [38:49] >> I think the gifts and callings of God [38:51] are without Romans. [38:53] >> Yeah. Well, it's referring to Israel. [38:55] >> Yeah. [38:56] >> Not individuals. But I mean, this is [38:58] that's an interesting question. [39:01] I I just doubt it because [39:05] so so there's two questions that could [39:06] be asked. It's Mike specific and then [39:10] people in general. And I just look at [39:12] Mike and I go, I don't know if he ever [39:13] had those callings because he was a liar [39:15] and he lied his whole life. So it's hard [39:18] to know if those callings that he [39:19] claimed to have were ever actually the [39:21] Lord. And now and people in general [39:23] though, can you be a deeply wicked [39:25] person and do really egregious sins and [39:28] have a call on your life since it's by [39:30] grace and not by works? [39:33] That's a different question. [39:35] >> Okay. And maybe this gets cut from post, [39:37] but and in this way Israel will be saved [39:39] as it is written, the deliverer will [39:40] come from Zion. He will banish [39:43] ungodliness from Jacob. And this will be [39:46] my covenant with them when I take away [39:49] their sins. As regards to the gospel, [39:51] speaking of Israel, they are enemies for [39:53] your sake. But as regards to election, [39:55] they are beloved for the sake of the [39:57] forefathers. For the gifts and the [39:59] callings of God are irrevocable. For [40:00] just as you were at one time disobedient [40:04] to God, now you have received mercy [40:06] because of their disobedience. So they [40:08] too [40:10] have now been disobedient in order that [40:13] by the mercy shown to you, they also may [40:17] now receive mercy. for God has [40:19] reconciled all to disobedience that you [40:22] may have mercy on. [40:23] >> So the passage here in Romans is [40:25] referring to Israel and in their [40:28] rebellion, God still used them to bring [40:30] about salvation to the Gentiles. So not [40:33] just in their their you know holy good [40:35] state, but in their apostasy and in [40:38] their rebellion, he still used them. [40:40] >> I don't question actually the fact that [40:42] Mike, I'm sorry, Mike Bickl was used by [40:44] God. There are people who are saved [40:46] today because of the International House [40:48] of Prayer, not because of Mike Beckle, [40:51] but because God in the midst of him [40:53] being an evil person, God still [40:56] accomplished great works. I have a [40:57] question that that happened. [40:58] >> Yeah. So, somebody actually challenged [41:00] me because I said the fruit of IHOP was [41:02] bad. And they go, "Oh, be careful [41:04] judging the fruit of IHOP." And I go, [41:06] "Hold on. I actually still think the [41:08] ideology of IHOP, the basing [41:12] >> Yes. Yes. Does that mean that God didn't [41:15] do anything good in the midst of it? No. [41:17] I absolutely think he did. But I think [41:19] overall that ideology as it's propagated [41:22] not just at IHOP, but a number of other [41:24] churches, my former church, the upper [41:25] room, I think building your church off [41:30] of some specific vision that's [41:33] grandioso, [41:34] I think is damaging. I I think it's not [41:38] holding fast to the head that that is [41:41] warned about both in by Paul and by [41:43] Jude. [41:44] >> I mean, if three4s of a harvest is [41:46] rotten, the man has a bad harvest this [41:48] year. Bad fruit, [41:51] >> right? But the fact is God is always [41:53] using both wicked and good people to [41:55] accomplish his purposes. Like we said [41:57] earlier about the judges, God did use [41:59] the judges, but he used them many times [42:02] in their rebellion. [42:06] Horrid Henry 99:20 [42:09] he says before you talk about false [42:11] prophets don't you have to first [42:13] demonstrate that there are true prophets [42:16] outside of the Bible not if you're a [42:18] Christian [42:21] yes Jesus rose from the dead therefore [42:23] you should believe in the words of Jesus [42:25] so that that would cause that would be [42:27] my argumentation for an unbeliever if [42:28] you are a Christian and you just happen [42:30] to be a cessationist I would say the [42:32] burden of proof is actually on you today [42:35] that we should not be doing the things [42:37] commanded for us in scripture. 1 [42:39] Corinthians 14:1, "Pursue love [42:40] earnestly. Desire spiritual gifts, [42:42] especially that you would prophesy, a [42:44] command given to all of God's people." [42:46] Paul says, "If you think you're a [42:48] spiritual person, recognize the things [42:49] I'm writing to you are the very words of [42:51] God. You would actually have to [42:52] demonstrate to me why I should stop [42:54] obeying the word of God that commands [42:56] me, pursue, love, and earnestly desire [43:00] prophecy." No. So I don't need to [43:02] demonstrate there are true prophets [43:04] outside the Bible. Why? Because the [43:06] Bible tells us that there is ongoing [43:09] gift of prophecy. God puts a time stamp [43:11] on it in Ephesians 4. He says he gives [43:14] these apostles, prophets, evangelists, [43:16] pastors, and teachers for the equipping [43:18] of the saints for the work of ministry [43:20] until until we get the unity of the [43:25] faith and the maturity of the stature of [43:27] Christ. So, we have a time stamp for how [43:30] long those things are to continue. So, [43:32] you have to prove to me somehow that [43:33] that verse doesn't mean what it says it [43:35] means. I don't need to necessarily prove [43:38] that there's an accurate prophet out [43:40] there to demonstrate that there are [43:42] false prophets today. I just look at the [43:44] scriptures and say, "What does it say?" [43:46] Because we are as Christians are people [43:48] of the book or credle not credle the [43:52] word be [43:53] >> creed is correct. [43:53] >> Well, credle is correct. Yeah. But but [43:55] but the creed of the scripture that is [43:57] the creed of the new covenant that is. [43:59] >> Yeah. No, that's right. Next question [44:01] here is can you name any Pentecostals [44:04] that you don't dislike? I think maybe [44:06] someone from the Pentecostal tradition. [44:08] >> Yeah. All Yeah. [44:10] >> Doing our prophetic reviews. [44:12] >> Just agree. I like them. And listen, [44:14] that's just it is what it is. I have [44:15] tons of friends in the Pentecostal [44:17] movement. So I it would be hard it's [44:19] harder for me to talk about the ones I [44:20] dislike because I'm not even really that [44:21] familiar with the movement anymore as a [44:23] whole. I'll tell you, John Mark Baker [44:25] used several Pentecostals. [44:28] An [44:28] >> Anthony Schmo is a great guy. John Mark [44:31] Baker is a great guy. Craig is a great [44:33] >> Who's the the guy that was the former [44:35] yogi who repented and came to Christ and [44:37] says, "I think he's a Pentecostal." [44:39] >> Yeah. Shrief. Michael Shrie. [44:41] >> Yeah. [44:42] >> And then you've got the guy who did [44:46] Edwards. Jonathan Edwards. [44:50] >> Might have been Jonathan. [44:51] >> Our friend David Miller is Pentecostal. [44:53] He definitely believes in second [44:54] blessing theology, [44:56] >> but he's [44:56] >> Matthew Eco. [44:57] >> Yeah, Matthew Esel. I mean, [44:58] >> he's been a second blessing guy for a [44:59] while. I would I would classify him in [45:01] Pentecostal space. Esquetologology might [45:03] not be there anymore, but you know, [45:05] >> oh, is is esquetology [45:07] kind of baked into Pentecostalism like [45:09] pre dispensational, pre-trip rapture, [45:11] guys. So classical Pentecostalism [45:14] is typically defined as second blessing [45:16] theology which includes [45:19] initial physical evidence and it [45:22] typically has to do with pre-rapture [45:24] sort of theology to be classical. What [45:26] did he do? [45:27] >> If you're going to be a what is called a [45:29] neopentecostal that typically includes [45:31] some kind of second blessing may or may [45:33] not include tongues and you might have a [45:35] diverse esquetology in that group as [45:36] well. [45:37] >> So it's a little bit broader. The word [45:39] Pentecostal doesn't mean it's not a [45:40] monolithic term these days. [45:42] >> Not anymore. I mean, it's with [45:43] everything I think. [45:44] >> But the fact is there are plenty of [45:45] Pentecostals that we think are great and [45:47] we like. So, [45:48] >> welcome. Yeah. It's it's the same thing [45:50] with the charismatics. [45:51] >> Oh, totally. [45:52] >> Charismatics I love. It's often the [45:54] practitioners that make us times [45:56] uncomfortable. [45:57] >> Well, you and I would you consider me a [45:59] charismatic? [46:00] >> Yes. [46:00] >> Yeah. I would consider you one [46:01] >> in that sense of like big C charismatic. [46:04] When people ask me and I have no clue [46:05] who they are, I go, "Do you mean like [46:07] slap people with coats charismatic?" [46:08] Because I'm not one of those. [46:10] >> Yeah. Well, we like to use the word [46:12] continuationist because it kind of [46:13] separates us from both classical [46:16] Pentecostal and charismatic movement. [46:19] >> That's the easiest one. [46:19] >> Yeah, it's hard. That's a hard It's It's [46:22] too broad of a term. [46:23] >> So, which charismatics have stood up and [46:26] called out the job leaders before? All [46:30] exclamations. They're publicly shamed. [46:32] Well, that's kind of a weird question to [46:33] ask because you call the nut job leader [46:36] out by publicly shaming them. It's both [46:41] end at the same time. That's how they [46:43] get called out. So, have do we know [46:47] which charismatics? Well, we have we've [46:49] been doing our prophetic reviews for [46:51] years since 2020. We we reviewed Joseph [46:56] Z and now he seems to be getting called [46:58] out left and right, but we were doing it [46:59] forever ago. [47:01] >> Yeah. before it was popular. Ciney [47:03] Jacobs, we were calling out her [47:05] prophetic words and prophetic nonsense. [47:07] We don't actually think these people are [47:08] prophesying. That's the thing. We [47:10] actually think they're they're deeply [47:11] flawed and deeply wrong about this [47:13] stuff. [47:13] >> Yeah. Yeah, we did. So, here I'll go to [47:16] Remnant Radio's page and I'll just I'll [47:17] read them off to you. The Remnant Radio [47:20] and we'll just type in Prophecy over [47:22] here in the search. [47:29] And then [47:30] >> can you add this video in there that [47:31] you're doing this little search so that [47:33] I can see exactly? [47:34] >> Type in Prophecy. So Cat Cerr was one we [47:37] called out real early. [47:40] We've got [47:41] >> we called out Chris Reed. [47:43] >> Chris Reed before before all that was [47:45] >> Well, we did a we did a review of some [47:46] of his kind of crazy things about John [47:48] still being alive in some sort of cave [47:50] in Turkey. And then when we found out [47:52] that he had tried to groom a girl in a [47:54] school, we then shared the information [47:56] we had that he was also data mining. So [47:58] we were the first ones to bring that [48:00] public. I mean granted there were [48:01] victims of him that came to us to tell [48:03] us these things. [48:04] >> Emma Stark K Nash [48:06] >> Tommy Oriomi. Oh yeah, [48:08] >> that was a popular one. Cindy Jacobs. [48:11] >> That was before all the sexual [48:12] allegations came out about Tommy as [48:13] well. [48:14] >> Zadi, Bishop Garlington. [48:18] There's a 2020 marathon of prophecy [48:20] reviews. [48:21] >> It covered Perry Stone, Julie Green. [48:23] >> Did I don't know if Jeremiah Johnson [48:25] counts. We We jump. We mentioned we [48:27] didn't like the guy before all the stuff [48:29] went public, but we were pre We weren't [48:31] very explicit, [48:32] >> dude. I was calling him out. [48:33] >> Yeah, you were like, [48:34] >> I was calling out very explicit. No, no, [48:36] no. It was more than that. I thought he [48:37] was manipulating people with prophecy, [48:39] abusing people. I knew some of the [48:41] stories of the victims and immediately [48:43] started talking about it. [48:44] >> You didn't have [48:45] >> No, because I didn't have I didn't have [48:46] victims who were going to come forward. [48:47] >> Yeah. [48:48] >> Yeah, [48:48] >> that's right. Troy Brewer. Anyway, yeah. [48:50] So, we've we've done tons of this stuff. [48:52] I mean, just Google, you'll you'll see [48:53] all [48:54] >> It's funny because we get the question [48:55] in there about, "Do you guys like any [48:58] packels?" [48:59] Anybody ever call out these bad [49:01] charismatics? We get he hit on both [49:04] sides of the spectrum here. It's either [49:05] we're not doing enough calling out the [49:07] bad or we're not endorsing any of the [49:09] good. And yet, I I think we do both. And [49:12] maybe that's that's that is the center [49:13] line here is that you've got to be do [49:16] both in order to get called out for not [49:17] doing enough. [49:19] >> Yeah, I think you have to do both. But I [49:20] think that like [49:22] it's where I want to be. I want to be [49:24] honest. I want to be I want to be Christ [49:26] who's like in some sense [49:28] >> disagreeing with the Pharisees and [49:29] disagreeing with the Sadducees and then [49:31] finds a lawyer somewhere in the middle [49:32] and goes, "Hey, how far from the kingdom [49:34] of that?" [49:35] >> Yeah. [49:37] >> Turns out, okay, uh, [49:42] what would you pronounce that? [49:43] >> Ash Reese the man. I'm trying to [49:47] remember if you guys ever made a video [49:48] on Discernment Ministries. Was that a RR [49:52] episode Radio episode or another [49:54] channel? [49:56] >> Probably done one. [49:57] >> I don't know if we have or not. Have we [49:59] ever done a video on discernment [50:01] ministries? [50:03] I don't know if we have. I know I know [50:05] that we've rebutted certain [50:09] discernment guys out there when they've [50:11] said things that we thought were not [50:13] accurate or took too far. [50:16] Yeah, I don't know if we have. Yeah, I [50:18] don't think that was us. I think we've [50:20] said a couple things about discernment [50:21] ministries in the past, but the funny [50:23] thing is some people would think that [50:24] we're a discernment ministry. [50:26] >> Yeah. 90% of our content is talking [50:29] about spiritual gifts or interviewing a [50:32] theologian, [50:33] >> but 90% of what people watch is the [50:35] stuff where we're bringing correction. [50:37] >> Yeah. Where we're testing prophecy [50:39] >> or folks out. Unfortunately, that's the [50:42] stuff that gets the most views, but we [50:43] are putting tons of content out there [50:45] that has nothing to do with that kind of [50:47] stuff. [50:48] >> Yeah. Well, here's my thoughts on [50:50] discernment ministries. I would [50:52] encourage people to listen to [50:55] discernment ministries that are not only [50:57] saying this is what is bad, but actually [51:00] trying to teach what is good. And [51:02] additionally, I would encourage you to [51:04] listen to Discernment Ministries that's [51:06] focus [51:07] on mocking or scoffing, but dealing with [51:10] the facts of the matter. [51:11] >> Yeah. [51:12] >> As Christians, I think the way we battle [51:14] matters. And I don't think that we need [51:16] to mock and scoff and mutilate people's [51:19] faces on our thumbnails and, you know, [51:22] pick and make fun of them. And I think [51:23] it's hard in the thumbnail space and in [51:26] the world of communication to [51:28] communicate what is actually taking [51:30] place in a given graphic. So, I'm not [51:32] saying that I have [51:33] >> You've made some crazy graphics. Yeah. [51:35] >> Infallibly walked that line, but I think [51:37] that we should be careful. [51:38] >> I've infallibly walked that line because [51:39] I've never made a graphic. [51:40] >> Good point. [51:42] >> Also, what is Photoshop? Okay. [51:44] >> Exactly. [51:45] >> So, so, okay, my my don't mock, don't [51:48] scoff. And again, I'm going to have more [51:50] grace on certain things. What is being [51:51] communicated? What is being taught? And [51:53] is that person actually teaching what is [51:54] good? It's actually really easy to [51:58] tell someone why their sermon sucked. [51:59] It's really hard to get up and preach [52:00] discernment. [52:02] >> Yeah. I Yeah. I think the the thing that [52:05] gets me off about certain discernment [52:07] ministries [52:09] is look, if you're in a different [52:11] theological camp, it's going to be [52:13] really hard for you critique a camp that [52:15] you're not a part of. So, I have a [52:17] really hard time with many of the [52:18] cessationist [52:20] discernment camps critiquing [52:22] charismatics because just by de facto [52:24] being a charismatic, you're [52:26] automatically false in their mind. [52:28] >> Mh. And so yeah, well for a large large [52:30] majority of them I'd say I mean if you [52:32] don't think prophets exist and somebody [52:34] claims to be a prophet then they are de [52:36] facto a false prophet in the mind of a [52:38] cessationist. Some are just more honest [52:41] about following that to its logical [52:42] conclusion. [52:43] >> Mhm. [52:44] >> So I do think that there is some unfair [52:47] criticism coming from certain [52:48] discernment camps because they they're [52:50] not in that camp. I really do think we [52:52] need charismatics calling out other than [52:54] charismatics. But if we didn't have them [52:57] to begin with, I don't think any [52:58] charismatic would have done that. [53:00] >> Like I remember in 2017 I was talking to [53:02] Tar and we were saying look I wish [53:04] >> I wish Dr. Brown would something like [53:07] come on dude you're supposed to be the [53:09] theologian. [53:09] >> Well now well now we know why he wasn't [53:11] saying something. Yeah [53:11] >> but like hey you're supposed to you're [53:13] you're supposed to be a theologian in [53:14] Louis but why wouldn't you call out this [53:16] person or that person? Like I remember [53:19] cop someone called [53:20] >> he was too busy defending him [53:21] >> and he was like oh I don't know about [53:22] that guy. I follow that guy's ministry [53:24] and it's like he's massive. Why Why [53:27] haven't you even looked into it? [53:28] >> Yeah. [53:29] >> So, yeah. Okay. So, how in the world can [53:33] Rick Joiner justify not publicly blowing [53:36] the whistle on Paul Kane? Conceptual [53:40] clarity asks, "Well, he can't justify [53:43] it. He was wrong." [53:46] >> Agree. [53:46] >> Yeah. I mean, that's Yeah, he can't. [53:49] Like, how can he? Maybe he's not a good [53:54] person. [53:55] >> Does no coerc. Are we allowed to talk [53:57] about the coercion of him being [53:59] confronted [54:01] >> about Paul Kaine being confronted? [54:04] >> This can be edited out. So you just tell [54:05] me on the back end after I say this if [54:07] it needs to be removed, but I was under [54:09] the impression that there were a group [54:10] of men who confronted Paul Kaine and [54:12] Paul Kaine replied by telling all of [54:15] them their secret sins and was like, "If [54:17] public, I'll go public." [54:18] >> Yeah. And to be clear, that did happen. [54:21] But what also happened is they said, [54:23] "Okay, do that. [54:24] >> Go for it." [54:24] >> Yeah. Jack here was like, "Fine, say say [54:27] everything you want to say." So I know [54:29] that he did try to call them out for [54:31] whatever he had perceived as [54:33] prophetically as secret sins. The thing [54:35] was Paul was recording conversations and [54:37] things that they had said in private and [54:39] was threatening to go public with those. [54:41] And Jack Deer for sure said, "Okay, do [54:43] that." And he was still willing to. Now [54:46] he's an angry cuss of a man. Like he [54:48] said some stuff on a recording for sure [54:50] he shouldn't have said but also he's [54:52] like I don't care. [54:52] >> Yeah. No, he'll definitely do that. Like [54:54] that's that's Jack. [54:55] >> Yeah. So I don't think his coercion [54:59] worked if that helps. [55:00] >> Sure. [55:01] >> But I do think you know when it came to [55:04] what got Jack to not tell the full [55:06] story, it actually was pressure from his [55:08] friends and them claiming, "Hey, you [55:10] appear bitter." [55:11] >> And so Jack was trying when he heard [55:13] that he's like, "Oh, well, I don't I [55:14] don't want to I don't want to be [55:15] bitter." Yeah, [55:16] >> like I want to lose. So, he didn't go [55:18] public with certain things, but you can [55:20] see how totally manipulative that is. [55:22] >> So, be clear, I really care for Jack. I [55:24] just he was just I mean, what do you [55:26] think about a guy who's dad shot [55:28] himself, his son shot himself, his wife [55:30] like has had all the health conditions [55:32] that she's had. Like, he has had the [55:34] roughest life. He's a he's rough around [55:36] the edges. He's just But he's he's [55:38] honest. He's going to tell you what he [55:39] thinks. [55:40] >> He seems to be a man of virtue who stood [55:42] by his guns over the years. [55:44] >> Yeah. over serious things like this. [55:46] >> I think Jack has done better with what [55:48] he had than most people do with what [55:50] they have. [55:52] So, I I have the utmost respect for him [55:54] here. And I'd also say that he was [55:57] willing to to pay dearly to expose Paul [56:00] and he was the the forefront of that. [56:03] And again, the ones who held it back [56:05] from being as public as it should have [56:07] been were those who were his friends. [56:09] And so I I guess you could say he didn't [56:11] have much discernment when it came to [56:13] Mike Bickl or Rick Joiner and some of [56:14] his friendships. That's true. [56:17] >> Sam would say the same thing about [56:18] himself, [56:20] >> but he had the most to lose when it came [56:21] to Paul Kane. [56:22] >> Yeah. Yeah, he did. [56:23] >> Burn it to the ground. [56:24] >> He absolutely did. [56:25] >> So for that, he bit up. [56:29] >> Okay. Pronounce that one. The man. Did [56:31] we already that one? [56:32] >> We've asked uh a question from that [56:34] person already. Let's come back to it [56:36] then if we have time. Okay. [56:39] Do you honestly think there can be a [56:42] lying sign and wonder even in the [56:45] heavens? [56:46] >> What do you mean by lying? Does that [56:47] mean it's not actually what it is, [56:50] >> Esther J? [56:51] >> Or do you think it's that a bad person [56:52] can predict signs and wonders in the [56:54] heavens? [56:55] >> I think he's saying you guys said that [56:57] there's a comet up in the sky. You guys [57:00] said that there was rain that was [57:01] predicted and then Josh speculated that [57:05] it might have been a demon that [57:07] >> predicted knowledge or caused that event [57:10] to take place. [57:10] >> Oh, I Oh, yeah. [57:11] >> Saying, "Oh, even in the heavens, is [57:13] that what you're saying?" Like, you [57:14] think demons have that kind of power? I [57:16] think that's what you're saying. I'm not [57:17] trying to put what words. [57:18] >> Oh, but I would say they do. I think [57:19] demons can predict things like that. [57:21] Absolutely. [57:21] >> Yep. I think demons cause things like [57:23] that in the book of Job. [57:25] >> Yeah. Well, you see Deuteronomy 13, they [57:27] predict a thing that comes to pass. They [57:29] perform signs and wonders, but then in [57:31] doing so, they say, "Let us go and [57:32] worship these other gods." Yes. False [57:35] prophets do exactly that thing. [57:37] >> So, so yeah. [57:38] >> Yep. I'm with you. And see, Job, you [57:40] know, Satan causes a whirlwind to kill a [57:42] bunch of folks. So, like he has some [57:43] control over [57:46] >> the air. [57:48] >> Yeah. Well, that actually is the the [57:50] whole when Jesus rebukes the storm, [57:52] >> it's seen as the chaos monster. This is [57:53] more than just a storm. It's a cosmic [57:56] force that Jesus was rebuking. [57:58] >> I'm not quite there, but there are [58:00] scholars who who believe that that is [58:01] happening. So, you're not on [58:06] no footing. There are theologians who [58:07] believe that. [58:09] >> I'm a I'm with the German scholar about [58:11] the chaos conf. [58:13] >> The chaos comp. [58:15] >> Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. That's how [58:16] it's said or something. [58:17] >> Okay. [58:19] >> Germans are all upset. [58:20] >> The Germans. A Jew should not speak to [58:22] German. [58:25] >> That was a bad joke to make. [58:26] >> That was worse than what I said. [58:35] >> Try to recover from that. [58:36] >> Push right past [58:41] >> what I said. Release the tape. [58:45] >> How does the concept of the two wills of [58:47] God play into the statement made in this [58:50] video? If God said it, it should come to [58:52] pass. [58:56] >> The two wills of God. So God wills on [58:59] some level for all to be saved, but we [59:01] know that not all will be saved. [59:03] >> And he said that. [59:04] >> Yeah. And he said that. Yeah. [59:06] >> I think that might be what they're [59:06] saying. [59:09] >> I'm not sure I understand. What do you [59:10] mean? [59:10] >> I think maybe that the question is being [59:12] reading scripture in a hyperlberal way [59:14] that by his stripes we are healed. [59:16] >> Oh, but you are there's two wills of [59:17] God. Like I I take some comments when I [59:20] read them. I just assume it's combative. [59:21] I don't think this person's a combative [59:22] person. But the point of the statement [59:24] that there's, hey, if God said it, it [59:26] should come to pass. Well, he said by [59:27] our stripes you're healed. Why didn't [59:28] that come to pass? And you know, I will [59:32] all that be saved. Why didn't that come [59:33] to pass? He said it. Okay. But that's [59:36] not quite the same when we're talking [59:38] about prophecy and the way that prophecy [59:39] functions. Either God is sovereign and [59:42] he knows what will happen and is [59:43] communicating that to people or he's [59:46] not. And I think that undermines the the [59:48] sovereignty and supremacy of Christ when [59:50] we make prophecy this thing that like, [59:52] oh, maybe it happens, maybe it doesn't. [59:54] The two wills of God thing is what God [59:56] promises and what God decrees. And I [59:59] think a good massive chunk of prophecy [60:01] is what God decrees. It will be this [60:03] way. And there's no amount of repenting [60:05] or mourning or turning that's going to [60:07] cause me to, you know, thort my hand. [60:10] And then on the opposite side, like for [60:12] example, [60:14] the virgin would conceive Mhm. Is that a [60:18] decreed word or is that based on human [60:21] participation? [60:22] >> Do that. That thing is going to happen. [60:25] And yet Jonah gave us a prophetic word [60:27] that they're going to be destroyed and [60:28] that doesn't come to pass. So I just I [60:30] do not think all prophetic words are [60:33] generic. I think that they're I would [60:35] say most of them are decreed. And the [60:37] only ones that I think are just kind of [60:39] like this nebulous words are these [60:41] conditional prophecies that seem to be [60:43] over nations. [60:45] >> Yeah. I agree. I don't have anything to [60:47] add to that. [60:48] >> Okay. [60:48] >> There was one other question we skipped [60:50] and this will be the last one for the [60:52] show, but uh this is by Ashri the man or [60:55] Ash the man. This is your second [60:57] question and I can't tell if it's [60:59] sarcastic or actually sincere. So, we're [61:02] going to answer it like it's a sincere [61:04] question. He says, "Do you make it a [61:06] habit of calling out people you've not [61:09] listened to?" I don't think we've called [61:12] out anybody we haven't listened to. Now, [61:14] we may not listen to them on the [61:15] regular, [61:17] but I mean, we we listen to it to call [61:19] it out. Yeah, we do our research [61:20] beforehand. So, I don't know. It seems [61:23] like a [61:26] >> sarcastic speak. [61:27] >> Yeah. [61:28] >> It's true. [61:30] >> What did you say, Josh? Was that [61:33] >> Uh, no. You know, I if you would tell me [61:36] where I've called someone out that I I [61:39] had no knowledge of who they were or [61:40] what they were doing, I I would repent [61:43] of that. I don't want to do that. That [61:45] seems like it's bearing false witness [61:46] when you make a claim about a person [61:48] that you don't know. That would be bad. [61:50] That That would be sin definitionally. [61:52] >> Yeah. [61:53] >> If I've ever done that and you've seen [61:54] me do it, please let me know because I [61:56] need I don't want to be responsible for [61:58] that. [61:59] >> All right, that's it, man. [62:01] >> Yeah. Do you have any questions for me [62:02] and any reflection? [62:06] It's fun getting to do this in the [62:07] studio together. [62:08] >> Yeah. [62:09] >> Should do this more often. [62:10] >> All your breath. [62:12] >> Yeah, it's pizza. [62:13] >> Guys, thank you so much for tuning in to [62:14] this episode of Remnant Radio. We'll see [62:16] you next time from 4:00 to 5:00 p.m. [62:18] Central Standard Time. I think I'm going [62:19] to do an episode this week. I think I'm [62:21] going to film an episode about those [62:23] glowing lights that everyone keeps [62:25] summoning an alien. [62:27] >> Dude, that was our outro earlier. [62:29] >> Look for that. All right. Adios.  📄 **Full text:** ![[Full Document Contents/Articles/Kansas City Prophets Q&A False Prophecy, Mike Bickle, and Discernment.md|Kansas City Prophets Q&A: False Prophecy, Mike Bickle, and Discernment by YouTube]] ## Highlights - [04:10] have right or wrong. It's it's the [04:13] question of are you teaching things that [04:15] are going to lead people away from [04:17] Christ rather than to him. If you're [04:20] teaching things that are going to lead [04:21] people away from Christ, like likely ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01ks2rvkj23xxfzhmwtj7pcayc)) - Note: Biblical standards for evaluating prophetic ministry require character not just predictions - Tags: atom/literature/h1 - [19:44] Shawn BS and says, "Man, this book is so [19:47] great. It's like a little slice of [19:48] heaven." When you know the character of [19:49] the man who wrote it now, that person's [19:52] credibility should be shot to pieces. I [19:54] mean, blown ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01ks2rvpsmzr8jehgexaqfwgrk)) - Note: Leadership endorsements without investigation damage credibility across networks - Tags: atom/literature/h1