Lessons From One Year of Agency Action - CourtneyR.dev's 2nd Brain

Lessons From One Year of Agency Action ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Z5yR0UZ_U6I/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [Lessons From One Year of Agency Action](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5yR0UZ_U6I) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [agency-management, business-development, wordpress-consulting, outsourcing-strategy, client-relationships, work-life-balance] > author: Kurt Vonan, Toby Grimes > source: Agency Action podcast > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5yR0UZ_U6I > date created: {{date:YYYY-MM-DD}} {{time:HH:mm}} > > # 🏷️ Title: Lessons From One Year of Agency Action >  ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ## 📝 Summary - **What happened**: Kurt Vonan and Toby Grimes reflect on one year of their Agency Action podcast, sharing experiences about cold pitches, hiring outside expertise for their own businesses, and managing work-life balance as agency owners. - **Why it matters**: Demonstrates common challenges agency owners face with false humility about their own work, the difficulty of trusting external expertise, and managing interruptions from family life while running a business from home. - **Key stakeholders**: WordPress agency owners, freelancers, consultants working from home. - **Risks and tradeoffs**: Outsourcing critical business functions vs. maintaining control; work-life integration vs. professional boundaries; SEO performance vs. brand-focused messaging. - **Bottom line**: Successful agencies often struggle to apply their expertise to their own businesses and need external perspectives to overcome blind spots. ## 📖 Main Content The podcast covers three main themes around agency management after one year of operation: **Cold Pitches and Networking**: Both hosts describe being approached by service providers disguised as collaboration opportunities. Kurt received a podcast service pitch despite already hosting five podcasts weekly, while Toby experienced a similar "coffee meeting" that turned into a sales pitch. They discuss how to handle these situations productively by exploring referral partnerships rather than dismissing outright. **Hiring External Expertise**: Kurt hired a Pakistani copywriter to rewrite Mñana's website after receiving a detailed audit pointing out specific messaging weaknesses. Despite being in the business of providing similar services, he struggled with "false humility" when writing about his own company. Toby hired a brand copywriter for The Mighty Mo's redesign, accepting potential SEO ranking losses in favor of better conversion-focused messaging. **Work-Life Integration**: Both hosts discuss the challenges of working from home with family interruptions. Kurt describes fixing cars and accompanying his wife to Sam's Club during work hours, while Toby admits having "very limited boundaries" when family claims his time. They contrast this with corporate employment's clear time boundaries while acknowledging the flexibility benefits. **Technology and Equipment Decisions**: The conversation covers knowing when to upgrade failing equipment versus limping along with outdated tools. Kurt shares his experience of nearly destroying a warped laptop by not replacing it proactively, leading to his current approach of maintaining multiple backup systems. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5yR0UZ_U6I&t=0) Anniversary and Cold Pitch Experience - One year anniversary of Agency Action podcast (started May 5th, 2025) - Kurt describes receiving cold email about podcast services despite already hosting 5 podcasts weekly - Recommends turning pitches into referral partnerships rather than dismissing #### ⏱️ [00:15:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5yR0UZ_U6I&t=930) Website Redesign Challenges - Agencies struggle to apply their expertise to their own websites - Kurt hired Pakistani copywriter after detailed audit revealed messaging problems - "False humility" prevents bold, confident copy about own services - Toby hired brand copywriter for The Mighty Mo redesign #### ⏱️ [00:28:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5yR0UZ_U6I&t=1725) SEO vs Brand Messaging Tension - Toby's SEO expert uncomfortable with brand-focused homepage losing search rankings - Decision to prioritize brand messaging over SEO, compensating with paid ads and link building - Middle ground approach balancing conversion optimization with search visibility #### ⏱️ [00:35:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5yR0UZ_U6I&t=2120) Work-Life Integration Challenges - Both hosts struggle with family interruptions during work hours - Kurt: fixing cars, Sam's Club trips, working midnight hours to compensate - Toby: "very limited boundaries" when family claims time, defaults to saying yes #### ⏱️ [00:48:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5yR0UZ_U6I&t=2895) Equipment and Technology Decisions - Kurt's laptop nearly caught fire from overheating, now maintains multiple backups - Discussion of when to upgrade failing equipment vs. limping along - Balance between necessary professional equipment and over-investing #### ⏱️ [00:55:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5yR0UZ_U6I&t=3330) Trust and Expertise Themes - Agency owners struggle to trust external expertise in their own domains - Pride and control issues prevent accepting outside help - Value of fresh perspectives and specialized knowledge ## 📚 References - [Mñana Agency](https://mñana.com) - Kurt Vonan's agency - [The Mighty Mo](https://themightymo.com) - Toby Grimes' agency - Agency Action Podcast - Matt Mullenweg's WordPress community initiative - LinkedIn profiles for both hosts ## 🗣️ Paraphrase Kurt and Toby reflect on running their agencies for over a year, discovering that successful consultants often can't apply their expertise to their own businesses. They share stories about cold pitches disguised as collaboration opportunities, the difficulty of hiring external experts for services they provide to clients, and the challenge of maintaining professional boundaries while working from home with family responsibilities. The key insight is that business owners need outside perspectives to overcome blind spots, even in their areas of expertise. ## 📰 Newsletter **Agency Owners: Why You Can't Fix Your Own Website** This week's Agency Action podcast reveals a universal truth about WordPress consultants - we're terrible at marketing ourselves! Kurt hired an outside copywriter for Mñana after realizing his "false humility" was killing conversions, while Toby brought in brand experts for The Mighty Mo's redesign. The lesson? Sometimes you need fresh eyes on problems you solve daily for clients. Plus practical tips on handling cold pitches (turn them into referral partnerships!) and managing family interruptions when working from home. Worth a listen for any agency owner struggling with their own marketing or work-life boundaries. ## ✅ Action Items #### WordPress - **Core Program Team:** Document common agency self-marketing blind spots for community resources - **Community:** Create agency owner peer review programs for website audits and messaging - **Training:** Develop curriculum on agency business development and client relationship management - **Marketing:** Highlight agency success stories that demonstrate WordPress versatility #### Community - **Maintainers:** Consider how project maintainers market their own expertise vs. project needs - **Contributors:** Create pathways for agencies to contribute back expertise gained from client work - **Sponsors:** Develop case studies showing agency growth enabled by WordPress ecosystem #### OSPO - **Developer Support:** Training materials on managing consultant relationships and vendor evaluation - **Community Engagement:** Programs connecting agencies with open source projects for mutual benefit ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Agencies that hire external expertise for their own marketing outperform those who handle it internally - Work-from-home agency owners with clear family boundaries maintain higher productivity than those without - Cold pitches disguised as collaboration opportunities are becoming more common in the WordPress space - Agency owners who acknowledge their own blind spots earlier in business development achieve better outcomes - SEO-focused websites convert at lower rates than brand-focused websites in the agency services market ### 📊 Methodology - Survey WordPress agencies about internal vs. external marketing approaches and conversion rates - Time-tracking study of work-from-home agency owners with different boundary strategies - Analysis of cold pitch patterns and success rates in WordPress community - Longitudinal study of agency growth patterns based on self-awareness and external help utilization - A/B testing of SEO-optimized vs. brand-optimized agency homepages ### ❓ Questions - How can agency owners overcome pride barriers to hiring external expertise in their own domains? - What specific messaging patterns distinguish high-converting agency websites from low-converting ones? - How do successful agency owners structure work-life boundaries when operating from home? - What referral partnership models work best between complementary service providers? - How should agencies balance SEO performance with conversion optimization on their websites? ### 🔮 Future Research - Development of agency self-assessment tools for identifying marketing blind spots - Best practices for agency owner peer review and mastermind programs - Technology infrastructure recommendations for home-based agencies - Frameworks for evaluating when to outsource vs. handle internally ### 💡 Implications - **Practice**: Agencies may need systematic approaches to applying their expertise internally - **Policy**: WordPress community could benefit from agency owner mentorship programs - **Education**: Business development curriculum specifically for WordPress agencies - **Funding**: Investment in tools and resources for agency self-improvement and peer support ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment **Reading level**: Conversational podcast transcript, approximately 8th-9th grade level using Flesch-Kincaid formula. #### 👀 Visual learners - **Present**: Timestamps and topic breaks in transcript - **Improve**: Flowcharts showing agency decision-making processes, before/after website examples, organizational structure diagrams #### 🔊 Aural learners - **Present**: Full audio podcast format with natural conversation flow - **Improve**: Chapter markers, summary audio clips, follow-up discussion prompts #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - **Present**: Conversational explanations, analogies (iron sharpens iron), real-world examples - **Improve**: Glossary of agency terms, comparison frameworks, storytelling structure guides #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - **Present**: Practical examples and actionable scenarios - **Improve**: Agency assessment worksheets, decision-making checklists, hands-on exercises #### 🧠 Logical learners - **Present**: Problem-solution patterns, cause-and-effect relationships - **Improve**: Decision trees for outsourcing choices, ROI calculation frameworks, systematic evaluation criteria #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - **Present**: Two-host discussion format, community references - **Improve**: Agency owner discussion groups, peer review processes, mastermind program structures #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - **Present**: Self-reflection opportunities and personal anecdotes - **Improve**: Self-assessment tools, journaling prompts, individual development plans #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - **Present**: Organic business growth analogies, ecosystem thinking - **Improve**: Business lifecycle metaphors, sustainable growth practices, environmental factors analysis ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - **Present**: Clear heading structure, descriptive content - **Improve**: Timestamp links with descriptive text, speaker identification, topic summaries #### Keyboard navigation - **Present**: Standard web navigation - **Improve**: Skip links for long transcript, keyboard shortcuts for audio controls #### Contrast and readability - **Present**: Standard text formatting - **Improve**: High contrast options, adjustable text size, clear visual hierarchy #### Media and captions - **Present**: Full transcript provided - **Improve**: Time-synced captions, speaker identification, audio descriptions for visual elements ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - **Present**: US-based agency perspective, international contractor example (Pakistan) - **Improve**: Global agency practices, cultural considerations for remote work, international business examples #### Inclusive language - **Present**: Casual, accessible conversation style - **Improve**: Gender-neutral examples, diverse family structures, varied work arrangements #### Neurodiversity support - **Present**: Conversational, easy-to-follow structure - **Improve**: Content warnings for work stress topics, structured summaries, predictable formatting #### Representation - **Present**: Two male agency owners' perspectives - **Improve**: Diverse agency owner voices, varied business models, different life circumstances ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - **Inductive strength**: Using specific experiences (cold pitches, hiring decisions) to identify broader patterns in agency management - **Analogical reasoning**: Comparing corporate employment boundaries to agency owner challenges effectively illustrates work-life integration issues - **Causal reasoning**: Clear connections between pride/false humility and poor self-marketing outcomes #### Fallacies - **Survivorship bias**: Only hearing from two successful agency owners may not represent typical experiences - **Anecdotal evidence**: Heavy reliance on personal stories without broader data validation - **False dichotomy**: Presenting SEO vs. brand messaging as either/or choice when hybrid approaches exist #### Tone of voice - **Conversational and authentic**: Natural dialogue with humor and self-deprecation - **Practical and experienced**: Drawing from real business operations and decisions - **Supportive and collaborative**: Encouraging peer learning and community building ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis No DARVO patterns identified. The conversation maintains honest self-reflection and accountability throughout, with both hosts acknowledging their own mistakes and blind spots without deflection or blame-shifting. ## 🎯 Conclusion Agency owners face a fundamental paradox: they excel at solving problems for clients but struggle to apply that same expertise to their own businesses. The key insight from this year-long podcast experiment is that external perspectives are crucial for overcoming blind spots, even in areas of professional expertise. The practical next steps for agency owners include: actively seeking outside expertise for self-marketing, establishing clearer work-life boundaries, and developing systematic approaches to business decision-making that account for pride and control biases. The WordPress community could benefit from more structured peer support systems and resources specifically designed for agency business development challenges. --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] Welcome to the Agency Action podcast [00:02] starring Kurt Vonan, the legend, and [00:06] myself. I'm Toby Grimes. [00:09] We have a great show today, but I want [00:11] to start with give telling us happy [00:14] birthday. We have been going for over a [00:17] year now. We started May 5th last year, [00:20] 2025. And [00:21] >> I can't I can't believe Matt hasn't [00:23] signed in as one of his like surprise [00:24] guest visits to sing Happy Birthday to [00:26] us. [00:27] >> Exactly. Uh, where are you at, Matt? Um, [00:30] but also thank you all. Thank Matt. Uh, [00:33] I think Matt's um he's just like a core [00:37] part of the WordPress community [00:38] globally, at least in the US, you know. [00:41] Um, I think he's been that for a long [00:43] time and this podcast is just part of [00:46] his legacy and efforts. And so, thanks [00:49] to Matt, of course, but also thank you [00:51] Kurt. Um, it's been a great year and uh, [00:55] you know, let's keep going. [00:57] >> Yeah. right back at you. I you know it [00:59] it's it's funny because you know iron [01:01] sharpens iron all those great phrases [01:03] but uh I really look forward to our [01:05] conversations because it it just like [01:08] the listener it's it's great for me too [01:09] like it's just fun to interact and have [01:11] the conversation and uh this would be a [01:13] great time encourage people like share [01:15] follow obviously but we really need your [01:18] comments your questions your concerns in [01:20] running an agency so we have so we know [01:23] what content to come forward with so [01:25] it'd be awesome if you would just [01:26] particip ipate. [01:28] All right. Now, let's jump in. What [01:31] would you do, Toby? Now that Now that [01:33] you are a seasoned one-year podcast [01:37] professional, [01:38] now now that now that you're in the [01:40] game, what would you do if you received [01:42] a cold email where a company said, "Hey, [01:46] really love some of the content you're [01:47] putting on the Mighty Mo, and we think [01:49] that your content is extremely relevant [01:52] and uh you would be great on our [01:54] podcast. We'd like to break the ice and [01:57] schedule a call with you. What would you [01:58] think? [01:59] >> Uh, [laughter] [02:01] so let's assume you've already done some [02:04] research and determined it's not a a [02:05] scam spam. So, um, yeah, I'd be [02:09] flattered. Yeah, absolutely. Let's do [02:11] this. This sounds fun. I already do [02:13] podcasts. This sounds easy and [02:14] interesting and I never get invited onto [02:17] new podcasts, so this sounds great. Um, [02:21] that would be my gut reaction. Um, but [02:24] then what happens, Kurt, if you go on [02:26] there and you find out it's it's a [02:27] pitch. [02:28] >> It's a pitch. So, uh, I told the guy [02:32] because I'm sure everyone anyone that [02:34] listens to this knows I'm a pretty [02:35] direct communicator. So, we get on this [02:37] the Zoom call and I say to this guy, go, [02:39] "Hey, Brandon, uh, be honest with you, [02:41] got no idea why I'm on the call. Like, I [02:43] I don't know if I don't know if you're [02:46] trying to hire me. like, "Do you need me [02:48] as the talent for your existing show or [02:51] are you trying to pitch me, you know, a [02:54] podcast service?" And then he didn't [02:56] really answer the question. We ended up [02:58] talking for 30 or pardon me, 30 or 40 [03:00] minutes. Got to tell you, super nice [03:02] guy. I really enjoyed my time with him. [03:04] He asked a lot of really great questions [03:06] that really helped me identify like my [03:08] avatar, my audience, who I want to talk [03:10] to. Like, it was great. But in the end, [03:13] it was a pitch. They wanted to pitch me [03:15] a done for you podcast service [03:17] >> to launch a new podcast. [03:19] >> Great. [03:20] >> To the guy that is already on five [03:21] podcasts a week. [03:23] >> So, I had a similar scenario just this [03:25] week where I was invited out to coffee [03:28] and with somebody that I don't know well [03:31] at all locally, but um you know, I I [03:35] actually really appreciate some of their [03:37] senses of humor and like I just kind of [03:39] follow them online a little bit. And [03:41] same thing, we had a great conversation. [03:43] We're at coffee and at the end he's [03:46] pitching me. I'm like, "Is he pitching [03:48] me?" Like, I thought we were just here [03:50] to talk and have a good time. What's [03:52] going on? And yep, he's pitching me. And [03:53] he's like, "How about I get back to you [03:54] on?" I'm like, "Wait, what? You're [03:57] pitching me? [clears throat] [03:59] >> Is everybody pitching these days? Why is [04:02] everybody pitching?" [04:03] >> Everybody's pitching. It is It is a [04:05] nightmare. I spent, you know, three [04:07] years promoting LinkedIn as my like [04:10] number one connection tool, right? And [04:12] my inbox in LinkedIn is an absolute [04:16] smoking heap of disaster. Uh, [04:18] everybody's in there with six or seven [04:20] paragraphs about why they're awesome and [04:21] I should hire them. You know, if they [04:23] could get me 10 or 15 qualified leads a [04:25] month, what would that be worth to me? [04:26] Right? [04:28] you know. Um, so I I I did something [04:33] interesting when I talked to Brandon [04:34] with the podcast thing and I and I don't [04:36] know, this is something that I do and I [04:39] don't know that other people do it. Like [04:41] when someone's pitching me, I think to [04:44] myself, if I wasn't already [04:46] self-sufficient in this space, is this [04:47] somebody I'd like to work with? And like [04:50] I said, Brandon was a nice guy. He asked [04:52] a lot of good questions. He his pitch [04:54] actually wasn't that bad. I'm just I'm [04:56] not his customer. And so I made it very [04:58] clear. I said, "Brandon, I'm going to be [04:59] honest with you. I'm not your customer. [05:01] I'm not your customer, but that doesn't [05:02] mean I hate you, right? So, let's figure [05:04] this out. Um, let's say I'm an agency, [05:08] which I am. I'm an agency and I have a [05:10] lot of e-learning projects and community [05:12] projects and I deal with coaches and [05:14] community managers and all these [05:15] things." Some of those people might wake [05:17] up one day and go, "Holy crap, I should [05:20] start a podcast." But they don't know [05:22] how. And I'm not in the podcast [05:24] business. And news flash, manas doesn't [05:26] want to be in the podcast business. So, [05:29] what if I just referred those people to [05:32] you? And he was like, "Oh, that'd be [05:33] great." And I said, "But hold on, hold [05:35] on. It's a two-way street, Brandon. So, [05:37] if you have people that have a killer [05:39] podcast and they and they say, "The [05:41] podcast is doing awesome. We we should [05:43] really have a community site or we [05:44] should really, you know, start some [05:46] online training with the subject we do [05:48] the podcast about." Well, then I'm your [05:51] guy, right? Like, can we have that [05:52] agreement? and he goes, "That sounds [05:54] perfect." And then I did something [05:56] that's a little different than I think [05:58] other people. Um, he started talking [06:00] like affiliates and like bird dogging [06:02] and stuff and I was like, "No, that's [06:03] too messy. That's too sloppy. Just make [06:06] just make a warm introduction. Take the [06:08] client. When you when you send me a [06:09] client, I'm taking the client." Like [06:11] trying to chase down or get upset about [06:13] paid or unpaid affiliates or referrals [06:16] is a pain in the rear end and I don't do [06:18] it anymore. [06:19] >> Yeah. Uh, I had was told a story [06:23] yesterday by someone else. Um they were [06:27] a marketer, a mid-level marketer at an [06:29] $80 billion corporation and they would [06:33] >> midle there, [06:35] >> right? Yeah. They would get these calls [06:37] from, you know, like what would you do [06:39] if I can get you 13 leads? That sort of [06:40] thing. And he was telling me he would [06:42] get these calls and, you know, he was [06:45] like, I'll just hear it. It sounds kind [06:46] of interesting. Um my this my friend has [06:49] no decision-making responsibilities at [06:52] the company. mind you, but like you take [06:54] the call, the person be like, "Okay, [06:55] okay. How do you have a budget for [06:57] this?" He's like, "I don't really have a [06:58] budget." And he's like, "Well, what [07:00] what's like your would you say like you [07:02] have a3 to5 million budget?" My friend's [07:04] like, "Yeah, probably. We have $80 [07:06] billion." [07:08] [laughter] So, like, this is my friend [07:10] telling the story. He's like, 45 minutes [07:12] in, the guy's like, "So, what do you [07:13] think? What do you think?" He's like, [07:14] "What? I don't make any decisions here. [07:17] I just thought this might be an [07:19] interesting conversation." [laughter] [07:21] Oh. [07:23] My experience in corporate has me so [07:26] jaded because I was on the inside for so [07:28] long. Like I can remember the vice [07:31] president I worked under at a large [07:32] company being like, "Hey Kurt, we need [07:34] to run out and get some bids on X, Y, [07:36] and Z." And I go, [07:38] "Are we doing X, Y, and Z?" [laughter] [07:41] And he's like, "No, we just need the [07:43] information." [07:44] >> Yeah, [07:44] >> dude. Why are you wasting my You're [07:46] wasting my time. You're wasting their [07:47] time. You're making me look like an [07:49] idiot. Whatever, dude. So, I would just [07:51] tell people, I just need a quote. And [07:53] then I tell them right away like, "No, [07:55] we're not doing this. We're not a [07:56] customer. We're just we're just [07:57] fishing." [07:59] >> Yeah. Um, [08:02] let's let's talk a little bit more about [08:04] um just like I'm thinking like hiring [08:07] like uh [08:12] and specifically like like let's I'm [08:15] changing the subject by the way. [08:16] [laughter] [08:16] >> Yeah. Okay. Because I'm like this is [08:18] great. Seems to have run its course. [08:19] Let's move on. [laughter] [08:22] Uh, you know, George Carlin used to do [08:23] this thing. He'd finish a bit every now [08:25] and then. He'd be like, "I have no [08:27] finish for this, so I just take a bow." [08:29] And that was like transition. And he [08:31] would say, "Just say that." [08:33] >> That's just taking a bow. I have no [08:35] finish. But um, okay. So, you're an [08:38] agency. Um, you you need to rebuild your [08:41] website. This is a common thing. You [08:43] need to redesign, rethink your [08:44] messaging. You could do it internally [08:47] and maybe you've tried and tried five or [08:50] six times over the last decade and never [08:52] really did it. And this is common by the [08:54] way. I've experienced this at big [08:56] agencies too. Like they have the same [08:57] problem and their solution is usually to [09:00] hire it out. Like they go, we know we do [09:03] this for a living, but we can't do this [09:05] internally because of all the pressures [09:07] we have. And so they go and hire a [09:09] different agency that does exactly what [09:11] they do. [09:12] >> And this is big agency world. like they [09:14] do this and um so I'm curious Kurt um [09:17] what would you do hypothetically if you [09:19] wanted to rethink your website branding [09:22] design content let's take hypothetical [09:25] right off the table and just talk [09:26] reality um I got I I got hit with a cold [09:31] email and I'm usually not big on cold [09:33] emails and not only that he sent the [09:35] cold email to my wrong email address so [09:37] it really caught my attention um but as [09:39] I read the email they had done the [09:41] research like they looked at all the [09:44] pages on our site. They did like an SEO [09:46] kind of an audit kind of thing like what [09:48] are your keywords? What are you trying [09:49] to sell? This is why people are leaving [09:51] your page. This is why you have a bounce [09:53] rate of such and such. And like boom [09:55] boom boom boom boom and went through and [09:56] pointed out some very specific things. [09:58] And uh yeah, you nailed it. Um we've [10:02] redone our website like six times in 10 [10:04] years. And sometimes it's because I feel [10:07] like we changed the page builder we were [10:10] using and I thought well if we're [10:11] recommending this to clients we should [10:12] represent it to ourselves and so let's [10:14] redo this or let's change you know our [10:16] focused message is now on enterprise [10:18] e-learning so let's make sure we focus [10:20] on enterprise e-learning and we redo [10:22] something. Um, the messaging is muddy [10:26] and I am, even though I'm on all these [10:30] podcasts and even though I do all this [10:32] stuff, I still hesitate to like shout [10:34] from the rooftops like, "I'm the expert. [10:36] I'm the expert." And so I was taking [10:39] like these really nice like implied [10:42] statements and trying to think that [10:44] those were like great marketing things. [10:46] And the guy's going through my website [10:48] and he's like, "This isn't specific. [10:51] This isn't a real feature and benefit. [10:52] this isn't a and and he's right. Like [10:54] everything he said was right. Um dude's [10:57] from Pakistan. We jumped on a call. He [11:00] immediately does a whole review of my [11:02] website with me without charging me [11:04] anything. Does this whole review on [11:06] screen share does this whole thing and [11:07] he's right. Like everything he says is [11:09] right. And it just ticks me off because [11:12] I'm the agency. I should have had this [11:13] right to begin with, right? But I'm busy [11:16] working on big projects. I've got, you [11:17] know, I've got Art of Makeup. I've got [11:19] PF University. I've got all these things [11:21] and I'm helping them with their copy and [11:23] that and I know what I noticed and maybe [11:25] maybe you're in the same boat and I know [11:27] I'm talking along so I'll make this [11:28] quick. [11:30] I can say the most courageous, bold, [11:34] confident things about my clients on [11:36] their websites, [11:38] but when I'm talking about my own [11:39] projects, I'm like falsely humble. [11:42] >> Yeah. [11:43] >> And so this guy comes along and he's [11:44] like, "You're not using strong enough [11:46] words and phrases, man. We need to close [11:48] these people. So, you need closing [11:49] content that takes people to schedule a [11:51] call or swipe a credit card. And I'm [11:53] like, I agree. Okay. And so, he gave me [11:56] his rate, higher than I wanted to pay. [11:58] But then I thought, you know what? I [12:00] give people rates all the time and [12:01] sometimes it's higher than they want to [12:03] pay. So, I just agreed to it and I said, [12:04] let's see what happens. We'll do the [12:06] homepage first and 30, 60 days later, [12:08] we'll look at the results and maybe I'll [12:09] hire you to do the rest of the site and [12:11] I'll probably add him to the team at [12:12] Mñana. [12:14] >> We'll do client sites, too. Why not? If [12:16] he's good. [12:17] >> Yeah. And there's there's both like this [12:19] problem of being humble about our own [12:21] stuff, but also we you [12:25] people have other uh experiences like [12:28] that um and other perspectives. And so [12:31] like we are currently doing a redesign [12:33] and rebrand at the Mighty Mo where we're [12:36] um previously focused on a certain type [12:38] of clientele and now we're changing it [12:40] to a different type of clientele. And [12:42] for the first time ever in 20 years, I [12:43] hired a brand copywriting person to like [12:48] figure out what should be our messaging [12:49] be on the homepage. And we've [12:52] traditionally also been highly all of [12:55] our lead, not all our leads, but a good [12:56] portion of leads have come from SEO. And [12:58] so we're really good at that. And our [12:59] SEO uh expert is really uncomfortable [13:03] with the current direction. And it's [13:06] been interesting. I've had a number of [13:08] conversations with him because he's he's [13:10] saying, "Look, if you do this this [13:12] branded experience, we're going to lose [13:14] some SEO, probably significant SEO [13:16] footing." [13:18] >> Yeah. [13:18] >> And um but I feel strongly like that we [13:24] can convert more and convert better if [13:26] our homepage copy at least is um brand [13:30] branded towards that that by brand I [13:33] don't mean like about us. I mean like [13:34] that the content is very like [13:37] actionoriented towards them towards the [13:39] people that are there. Um one thing that [13:41] we're experiencing now is that pull get [13:43] pull that pull between our brand [13:45] conversations on the website and the SEO [13:48] metrics and [13:50] we've kind of landed at a middle ground [13:52] where I've framed it up and said look [13:55] I've made a decision. We're going with [13:56] the brand. The brand is going to win [13:58] this conversation and we're going to [14:00] lose SEO rankings. Um, and what else can [14:04] we do now that you have that framework [14:06] in mind? He's like, "Well, I have ideas [14:09] that we're going to have to invest more [14:12] in [14:13] third party linking, let's say, like or [14:15] like maybe we have to buy ads." And so, [14:17] like, we're figuring it out. [14:19] >> Um, [14:20] >> but we wouldn't have gotten there had we [14:22] just done the same old thing. [14:26] >> To to me, it's super interesting, right? [14:27] Because it's like fresh eyes, new [14:29] perspectives. Um, like I mentioned, [14:31] confidence in in the in this, you know, [14:34] none of that fake humility stuff. And [14:36] it's not fake humility. I mean, it's [14:37] honest humility from my standpoint, but [14:39] other people might see the content and [14:40] go, "Oh, what's with this guy?" And I [14:43] think it's interesting, Toby. I I do [14:46] every now and then when we see you know [14:48] what we would call an influencer online [14:50] you know and you could name any of the [14:51] names that you see in YouTube all the [14:53] people that have a lot of followers [14:54] they'll talk about heightened design [14:57] sense or you know uh the professional [14:59] way to do something and I go okay well [15:01] let's go look at their website and I do [15:03] I go look at their websites and I go [15:05] blow me away show me something that's [15:07] absolutely amazing if I was a customer [15:09] what would make me want to buy from you [15:11] and a lot of times I don't see that [15:13] there like I I think sometimes we put an [15:15] undue pressure on ourselves like [15:17] everything's got to knock it out of the [15:19] park. Um, so I don't want to like make [15:22] it sound like it's a do or die thing, [15:23] but I do want to have the best [15:25] representation possible for my company. [15:27] And so, um, I I did the outside route. [15:33] And it was funny because I walked out of [15:34] my office kind of in shock. I made the [15:36] decision myself. I told my wife, I go, [15:38] "I just hired someone to rewrite the [15:39] mñana website." And she goes, [15:43] "What?" [laughter] I was like, she goes, [15:45] "Aren't Aren't you a writer?" I was [15:48] like, "Yeah, yeah, publish books and [15:50] everything, but that doesn't mean that I [15:51] can get people to buy something off my [15:53] website. I need to I need to have [15:55] someone else give me some input." And um [15:58] if I did it inside in-house and I made [16:00] compromises like you would use that word [16:02] compromise I would get what I have now [16:05] you know and you have a team I have [16:09] contractors and so you have a team and [16:12] you can talk about compromise and [16:13] everybody's in the same boat kind of [16:15] thing but I'm working with contractors [16:17] and I don't have their full attention [16:18] like that and so when I make a [16:20] compromise it really comes down to me [16:22] and if I'm making the compromise I'm [16:24] going to end up with the mush I've [16:25] already thought. So, I'm like, I just [16:27] got to pay this guy. And like I said, if [16:30] it works, if the if the content's that [16:32] stinking good, if it's worth what I [16:33] paid, I'll hire him to do some of my [16:36] client sites and we'll we'll upsell it [16:37] to people and make it a profit center. I [16:40] had this sparked an idea that I've been [16:42] thinking about, but wasn't on our [16:43] agenda, and I'm going to uh go here. And [16:47] what you just said is like brilliant cuz [16:50] what you're talking about is like you [16:53] hire someone who has expertise and you [16:56] trust them to do the thing despite what [16:59] your gut is telling you should be there [17:01] and your experience and your you know [17:04] and this is very very difficult for a [17:06] business owner to do by the way if you [17:09] work at corporate America you might not [17:10] feel it the same because you're like [17:12] used to being told what to do and you're [17:14] your butt's not always on the line and [17:16] you're used to sherking responsibility [17:18] maybe like try to I feel like one goal [17:22] of your of every corporate American is [17:25] uh a corporate American worker is to [17:28] take as little responsibility as you can [17:30] for everything. That's that's your like [17:32] primary objective. [17:34] >> Yes. [17:35] >> Now, when you own a company, it's the [17:36] exact opposite. You own everything [17:37] whether you want to or not. And so, like [17:39] as a business owner, the longer you're [17:40] in it, the less you trust other people [17:42] because you're like, "Your butt's not on [17:44] the line. I I have to live with this [17:46] decision tomorrow, next week, next year, [17:48] 10 years from now. Um, and so I've been [17:51] working on this as a skill set [17:53] internally to me to be like, I have [17:56] experts. I'm going to let them run with [17:58] it. And so this brand person is one, the [18:00] SEO person is another, my project [18:02] managers. I've been really, it's this [18:05] has maybe been the toughest thing is to [18:07] kind of let go of the relationships with [18:09] customers and understand that even [18:12] though this is going to sound like this [18:14] old record that you've heard, but even [18:16] though they're doing it differently, and [18:18] I'm really uncomfortable sometimes with [18:20] how the conversations go and what [18:22] they're doing, that the relationship [18:25] might be stronger because of it. like [18:27] that other perspective and that other [18:29] experience [18:31] because what I'm seeing is like even [18:33] though all that might be true I'm very [18:34] uncomfortable sometimes with the [18:36] conversations that we're having with our [18:38] clients sometimes not always but like [18:41] and I'm not talking like the directional [18:42] conversation but just the actual words [18:44] that are being spoken sometimes I'm like [18:47] [laughter] [18:48] why do we say that but [18:50] >> I've also it it allows for other things [18:55] like it allows space for fruits to bloom [18:57] that if I just let go of that. And in [19:00] your case, maybe you just let go. You [19:01] say they're going to write the copy. In [19:03] my case, the same, but like I'm just [19:05] going to live with it. We're going to [19:06] publish it. Let's see what happens. [19:09] Let's let's evaluate the results, you [19:12] know? And that's that's the cool thing [19:13] about what we do for a living, Toby, is [19:15] is we'll we'll get results, right? We [19:18] just we need to be able to evaluate them [19:20] and then go, okay, was that a good [19:21] decision or a bad decision? you know, if [19:24] my web visits because here's the thing [19:27] that surprises me. I am not so huge on [19:30] SEO. I mean, do I use SEO? Yes. But am I [19:33] living 15 hours a week in the SEO [19:36] mindset? No, I'm not. I'm not. I'm just [19:38] not. Um, and then I talk to people that [19:40] are and they're like, "Oh, impressions [19:43] are up, conversions are down, this is [19:45] this, this is that." And then they share [19:46] their numbers with me. And then I go [19:48] look at my my my Google console and I go [19:53] I'm right behind them and I am not [19:55] stressing out. I'm like I'm like because [19:57] I've always thought if I just have good [20:00] content, good copy, I stay on target, I [20:03] you know I have you know the the URL has [20:06] been around for 18 20 years like it's [20:09] certain things affect obviously [20:11] stability and I think if we if we offer [20:14] value through our content SEO recognizes [20:18] that whether I'm trying to game the [20:19] system or not and then gaming the system [20:22] I don't put a ton of effort in. I just I [20:25] tweak a couple things, tweak a keyword [20:26] here or there, tweak a title. If I, you [20:28] know, if I read a title and it looks [20:30] weird, I'll I'll tweak that. But I don't [20:32] spend an inordinate amount of time on [20:33] it, and I'm not that far behind from [20:35] people that do. So, I feel really strong [20:38] in that space. And I feel like [20:41] if this copywriter does their job and I [20:43] get the same amount of impressions, [20:46] right, but my conversions go up 5%, it's [20:50] paid for itself. [20:52] Well, here's another flip side of that. [20:55] Let's say they do it and it fails and [20:56] your impressions don't go up. Maybe you [20:58] get a little fewer. It's still that [21:00] experience has freed up quite a bit of [21:02] time and head space for you. And how [21:04] will you use that head space which in [21:07] that time which is probably way more [21:09] valuable than you know if you had [21:12] controlled the whole process and had [21:14] more slightly more leads or the same [21:16] leads or whatever. Um, and so this is [21:19] kind of like like what how should you [21:21] use that headsp space in that time in [21:23] some of this, you know, this could be [21:26] person how you maybe you do personal [21:28] things. How would you think about [21:29] >> we don't even need a George Carlin segue [21:31] for this? You went right into it. [21:33] >> Um, that's a great concept. So, if I [21:36] free up time and space and I have the [21:38] mental aptitude and I'm physically able, [21:41] how much, and this was really like a [21:44] question I wanted to ask you rather than [21:45] me taking the lead on it. How how much [21:48] of like that life happens, you know, BS [21:51] quotient do you tolerate in your day or [21:54] your week? [21:56] Like I know you take the kids to school. [21:58] I know there's a coffee shop down the [22:00] street you probably frequent, right? But [22:02] like how much of like life happens do [22:06] you let interrupt your productive week? [22:09] ton. Honestly, it's um my my family [22:14] right now for me and uh is my top [22:18] priority in the sense well I you know I [22:20] would say it's mixed priority because I [22:21] I do have to earn a living to pay for [22:24] the pleasure of serving my family but um [22:27] but my family uh claims I have very uh [22:31] limited boundaries around when my family [22:34] puts a claim on my time. I'll say that [22:35] like like if they want to do something, [22:37] my kids, my wife, I generally say yes. [22:39] Like I I default to yes. And um I'm not [22:42] saying that's healthy or you know the [22:44] thing that everyone should do by any [22:45] means because there's downsides to that [22:47] too. Um but generally [22:51] life happens encroaches every single [22:54] day. Uh probably multiple times a day. [22:57] And I I generally plan everything else [22:59] around that. And so that might mean that [23:02] my most productive hours are spent [23:04] bringing my kids to school rather than [23:07] working on the Mighty Mo. Um it might [23:09] mean that I'm working later one night. [23:13] It's tough and I'm not happy with the [23:15] decision, but I think it's the best [23:17] decision for me right now. You know, I'm [23:19] not satisfied. [23:21] That that that's you know, I think [23:23] that's an interesting way that you say [23:24] that. Um I I have you know, I'm a person [23:27] of faith, right? And so so I go, "Well, [23:29] this is just the lot in life that I've [23:30] been given and I've got to figure out [23:32] how to deal with it, you know, cuz my [23:34] wife will say, you know, uh cuz I do get [23:36] pretty upset about the cars. We we we [23:38] have a fleet of cars in our driveway [23:40] that uh seem to constantly need my [23:41] attention. Uh and somebody's always in a [23:44] hurry to use one of the broken cars to [23:45] get to somewhere important, right? And [23:48] so [23:49] today, perfect example, power steering [23:51] hose is coming in. We got a power [23:53] steering leak and when UPS gets here, I [23:55] got to jump out there, crawl under a [23:57] car, install the hose, you know, flush [23:59] the system, blah blah blah. The hose is [24:02] 120 bucks and then it's my time. [24:06] If I were to have that car towed to a [24:09] shop, it would cost a,000 bucks at the [24:11] shop and 200 bucks for the toe. So, on [24:14] one hand, I go, am I saving am I saving [24:17] $1,000 or $1,100 doing the job myself? [24:20] That's one way to look at it. It could [24:22] be costing me five grand a day to not be [24:24] at my desk answering the phone, [24:25] answering emails. [24:27] >> So, [24:29] how much life happens do you have an [24:32] appetite for? And it's so so in some [24:34] ways I go, "Oh, this is my lot in life." [24:36] Like my wife will say, "Oh, you know, [24:37] you have a lot of patience with this [24:38] that I go, babe, I've just made the [24:40] acknowledgement. This is this is my lot [24:42] in life. I've got to figure this out." [24:44] So, she's off on Mondays and Tuesdays [24:46] now with this job she has. And Monday, [24:49] she's like, "What's your schedule [24:50] today?" you know, do you want to run the [24:51] do you want to run the Sam's Club? Do I [24:54] want Babe? It's it's a work week. And [24:57] then I realize in her heart of hearts, [24:59] it's her day off. She wants company [25:02] going to Sam's Club. So, guess what? [25:05] We're going to Sam's Club. And then [25:07] she'll go to bed at 9:00 at night and I [25:09] might be embedding videos in somebody's [25:11] course at midnight, you know, getting [25:13] caught up on work. I get so frustrated [25:16] by the scenario that you described that [25:18] I experience every single day like this [25:20] thing we're talking about where like my [25:23] fam my immediate family here my is [25:25] putting claims on my time usually [25:28] unannounced and usually at an annoying [25:31] time for me. [25:33] >> Hey, what's your schedule today? [25:34] [laughter] [25:35] >> No. Well, how it's more like [25:36] >> what are you doing right now? [25:37] >> I need you to do this right now. [25:39] [laughter] [25:40] Okay. [25:42] I go back to when I was corporately [25:43] employed. Um, like when I worked at [25:45] Suzuki, I had to be at my desk at 8:00 [25:48] in the morning and we left at 5:00 at [25:50] night. That was just a and I was [25:52] relieved to have that job because when I [25:54] worked at Ducati, I was working an [25:56] average of like it was something weird [25:58] like 78 hours a week I was averaging [26:00] when I worked at Ducati. Plus travel. I [26:03] was on airplanes all the time when I was [26:04] with Ducati. Um, oddly enough, I loved [26:07] the job at Ducatti. [26:09] >> [laughter] [26:09] >> The job at Suzuki was a little more [26:11] arduous, but um there were no trips to [26:15] Sam's Club on Monday morning when I [26:18] worked at Suzuki, right? There were no [26:21] um answering the phone or sending text [26:23] messages or uh you know, being available [26:26] at at a beck and call for anything. You [26:29] know, there was no, "Oh, you got to be [26:30] home at three o'clock. I'm getting a [26:31] delivery and it needs to be signed for." [26:33] Like, there was none of that. I wasn't [26:36] there. like I I am not an option Monday [26:39] through Friday from 8:00 to 5:00. And [26:41] sometimes I talk to other agency owners [26:44] and they're like, I rented an office and [26:46] I'm away from the house and I I am at [26:48] work from 9 to 6 or whatever it is. And [26:52] while I'm tempted to be a hard ass like [26:54] that, I really enjoy working from home [26:56] and being able to pet the dog and go get [26:58] lunch or an adult beverage at 3:00 or so [27:01] I do it to myself, too. So, should I be [27:03] angry or lose patience when other people [27:05] want that time? [27:06] >> Yeah. And I think part of this comes [27:08] down to there's this like question of [27:10] why do you work? And like there's a [27:12] corporate response to that that is [27:14] always really [27:16] washed over like and dumb really. But [27:19] like I've been thinking about that a lot [27:21] trying to just figure it out. And I'm [27:23] not I don't have an answer by the way to [27:25] why I'm working at the Mighty Mo the way [27:28] I am. Like I money exists to [27:31] >> cuz I enjoy it to some degree and it [27:34] pays the bills and I'm good at it. Some [27:36] combination of that. But like most [27:38] people, I would much rather be at the [27:41] beach [laughter] or at minimum working [27:45] two days a week rather than six. You [27:47] know, [27:49] if I'm if I'm bluntly honest with the [27:51] audience right now, and this is a [27:53] question like so this is like a comment [27:54] worthy thing. I want people to comment [27:57] like if you're an agency, [28:00] what day of the week and what time do [28:02] you mow your lawn? [28:04] Like sometimes I'm working on the [28:06] computer, I just need a break and it [28:08] might be Wednesday at 2:00. Yeah, I pull [28:10] the mower out and go mow the lawn. My [28:12] wife comes home at 6:00 from work and [28:15] the lawn looks great, you know, but it's [28:18] uh I'm not doing all my I'm not doing [28:20] all my household chores, you know, [28:21] Saturday at 8 o'clock in the morning, [28:24] you know. I'm I'm and and I guess if I [28:27] were corporately employed like when I [28:29] worked when I did work at Suzuki, we [28:31] went for walks three times a day. We had [28:33] a morning break, we went for a walk, we [28:35] walked at lunch, and we walked in the [28:36] afternoon. It was something like [28:37] everybody in the place did. And so I was [28:39] walking like three miles a day during [28:41] those breaks. So that's not much [28:44] different, right? Like I need a break at [28:45] home just as like I need a break [28:46] corporately, right? So I hop on the [28:48] mower and I ride that around for 45 [28:49] minutes. Um, but I'm curious to people [28:53] listening at home, if you're an agency [28:55] owner, when are you like when do you [28:57] load the dishwasher? 10:00 in the [28:58] morning on a Tuesday? Because that's [29:00] when most people would be working at a [29:02] cubicle. [29:04] That's a great question. I love it. Um, [29:06] I also want to talk about the this uh [29:08] point you brought up in our outline like [29:11] uh the idea is like similar. you you own [29:15] a business and [29:18] you have outdated hardware, outdated [29:20] software, it's going to cost money. Uh, [29:22] and you had posted, I love these [29:23] questions. How long should we push that [29:25] laptop that gets super hot? How long [29:28] should we subscribe to tool X, Y, and Z [29:30] that isn't really meeting the full need? [29:32] And then I would add to that, at what [29:33] point do you build the tool you vibe [29:36] code the tool with AI now? Um, [29:38] >> yeah. And it's sim it's similar to this [29:41] because it's about your priorities, why [29:43] you're working, what you want to work [29:44] on. Uh, and for me, I'll say like I've [29:47] really enjoyed building the AI tooling [29:49] for our company. And I I'm trying to [29:52] free up more of my time at work to do [29:54] that. Um, but how do you make these [29:58] decisions as a business owner? [30:02] Well, I blew it. I really blew it when [30:04] we lived in California. I had a I had a [30:06] really cool laptop. It was all it was [30:08] like, you know, it was the cat's meow. [30:10] The kids would have loved it. You know, [30:11] RGB keyboard and things lit up and it [30:14] was crazy fast for the time. But I do a [30:17] lot of video editing, a lot. And this [30:21] poor laptop was getting hot, really hot. [30:24] And I put a cooling pad under it and it [30:26] was still getting hot and I was still [30:27] pushing it. And eventually I looked at [30:30] it one day and it had started to warp. [30:33] like the keyboard was starting to like [30:35] come up out of the middle of the of the [30:37] laptop and I thought to myself, that's [30:39] bad. But I didn't run to Best Buy that [30:42] afternoon. You know what I mean? I I was [30:44] like, I I can limp it further. And then [30:46] uh [30:47] >> I limped it. I limped it until it almost [30:48] caught fire. Like it just stopped [30:50] working one day. The the hard drive [30:52] wouldn't connect. Blah blah blah. And [30:54] there I was without and I knew that I [30:57] knew that I knew that I should have [31:00] proactively taken care of that. And now [31:03] I'm completely different. I've got a [31:05] mini PC behind this monitor that's not [31:08] hooked up to anything. It's like a [31:10] backup for me to have if something goes [31:12] wrong. I got a Mini Mac down here. I've [31:15] got a MacBook Pro over there. I've got [31:17] multiple. I've got a 14 terbte external [31:20] hard drive. All of my files are backed [31:23] up on that. Some of the important ones [31:24] are also on the cloud. I don't keep [31:26] anything on the hard drives that I need [31:28] of any computer. I'm always plugged into [31:30] an external or to the cloud for [31:31] something. I mean, I've gotten a little [31:33] weird about it, but it's like that's [31:36] part of that life happens thing, right? [31:38] It's like we're running a business and [31:40] we're just limping things along. I'll [31:43] buy a new laptop and my wife will see it [31:45] and she'll go, "Really? You needed a new [31:47] laptop?" And it's like, "I use this for [31:50] work. We run our business on it. You're [31:53] checking Facebook and your email. You [31:56] could use some 12-year-old brick if you [31:58] wanted to, but we're running a business [32:00] here on this one. Like, like it's got to [32:02] be and that this whole maybe I'm going [32:04] back to that false humility thing, but [32:06] it's like just cuz you're working from [32:08] home or just cuz you're a freelancer or [32:10] an agency doesn't mean you don't need [32:12] great equipment. And and I see it go the [32:15] other way. I see where people bankrupt [32:16] themselves thinking they need the [32:18] coolest thing, you know, three three [32:21] vertical screens and all this nonsense. [32:24] um you know so they can do like Canva [32:26] designs [32:27] >> right [32:29] and this I have a Linux box by the way [32:31] that's probably 10 years old runs uh [32:34] what I use it for is for my team to [32:36] remote into as a testing box and so we [32:39] pay for this is a great question we're [32:40] paying for this remote software that [32:42] we're not using at all really I have [32:44] this Linux box running under my desk [32:46] that's big and bulky makes a bunch of [32:48] noise has a separate monitor again we're [32:50] not using it and so I'm [32:53] maybe I should invest. And this is the [32:56] And it's much easier to see when other [32:58] people are making these dumb decisions [33:00] than when I'm sitting here making a dumb [33:02] decision myself. Um, but now that I'm [33:04] looking at it and talk about it, I'm [33:05] like, "Yeah, if I need this, I should [33:08] buy that, you know, that $400 micro [33:11] computer on Amazon and just that should [33:14] be it." Or maybe it's the Mac Mini, [33:16] like, you know, like why why [33:19] Yeah. Why do I have this thing? [33:23] Um, [33:25] it's it's I hate to make things sound so [33:28] simple. Do you remember the gimbal [33:30] called Smooth? S M O V E. [33:33] >> No. What is that? [33:34] >> It was about 300 bucks. It was a [33:36] handheld thing, a gimbal. You put your [33:38] phone in it and you could wiggle it and [33:39] your phone would go whoop like stay [33:41] even, right? Okay. [33:42] >> Um, I bought it. It sucked. It wouldn't [33:44] do what it was supposed to do. I emailed [33:46] them. They said, "Uh, [33:49] we're not we can't give you a new one. [33:51] We can't exchange it, but we can give [33:53] you a second one at 50% off." Right? I [33:55] was like, "Well, I feel like I'm getting [33:56] screwed, but what?" I bought it. So, now [33:58] one for me, one for the kid. I tried to [33:59] like the new one. Same thing. It's junk. [34:03] Um, and then I've been I've been dealing [34:06] with this for years. Like, now I have [34:07] the equipment, but I hate it so much I [34:09] won't use it. [34:10] >> It's kind of like um some people like [34:12] GoPro cameras, some people hate GoPro [34:14] cameras. I am not a GoPro fan. I got a [34:16] bunch of them, but every time I use [34:17] them, it's a pain in the butt. [34:19] >> Um, same thing. Like, I could just use [34:21] my phone, but why am I hooking up all [34:23] this other stuff? I could just use my [34:24] phone. Um, I bought a gimbal off the Tik [34:27] Tok shop like six weeks ago. It was like [34:30] 50 bucks. [34:32] It does everything. You put it on a [34:34] tripod, it tracks you in the driveway, [34:36] you can talk to it, you can walk around, [34:37] you can hook up a microphone, you can do [34:39] it's like, oh my goodness. I was like so [34:42] burnt from the piece of junk that I paid [34:45] 300 bucks for um that I just had like a [34:48] mental block on ever using a gimbal [34:50] again, but I saw these other creators [34:51] using them and I was like, I got to have [34:53] it. And that's that's like what I said [34:55] like how long should you push something [34:56] or how long should you as a professional [34:59] go without a certain tool or an upgraded [35:01] tool because of some preconceived [35:04] notion? [35:05] >> Can I just pull this full circle before [35:07] we wrap up here? You just described a [35:10] reason to hire a a copywriter to write [35:15] your website copy. You just described [35:16] the reason to hire an outside person to [35:19] build your website. [35:21] They do it better, quicker, [35:25] maybe cheaper. Really, when it comes [35:26] down to it? [35:29] Yes. Are you going to say, "Why don't I [35:30] hire someone to make my content?" [35:33] >> Kurt, why are you walking around with a [35:35] camera? [35:37] >> No, not that. No, because you're great [35:38] at that. And I'm not saying you should [35:39] do that at all, but like this is the [35:40] blocker that I get too. Like why why did [35:42] it take me 20 years to hire a copywriter [35:44] for the Mighty Mo. You know, we've that [35:47] I got to tell you that's cuz I spend so [35:50] much time providing that service to [35:52] someone else. It felt insulting that [35:56] somebody would try to pitch me on [35:58] something that I'm dude, I have a [36:00] successful agency. I I am paying for [36:02] this house with what I do, right? Like [36:04] like that's in the mind, right? that [36:06] that's the that's that's our pride [36:08] welling up, right? But like scripture [36:10] says, pride comes before the fall. So So [36:12] we have to like, okay, we got to keep [36:14] things in check. When I opened my mind [36:16] and I read what he wrote and I heard him [36:20] talk, I was like, "This guy's completely [36:22] right." Like everything he's saying, [36:25] like he would point out mistakes and and [36:26] he wasn't very gracious about it. He was [36:28] like, "This is a mistake. This is a [36:30] mistake. This is a mistake." And I was [36:33] like, he is absolutely correct. [36:37] So, dude, if you can do better, have at [36:40] it. Here's the money. Get started. [36:42] >> You know, I'll share one more story and [36:43] then we can wrap cuz um I play in a cake [36:47] dad band. So, there's [36:48] >> Yeah. [36:48] >> four other dads and then there's mom. [36:50] So, cake mom and dad band technically. [36:52] >> Yeah. Crouched at the starting line, [36:53] baby. [36:53] >> Yeah. [36:54] >> We're going the distance. [laughter] [36:57] >> The guys want to play a song that's not [36:59] cake. And in my mind, in my prideful [37:02] place, I'm like, why would we even [37:05] consider that? We haven't even exhausted [37:07] the entire cake plethora of songs. And [37:12] but ultimately, I was like, I went [37:14] approached it with an open mind, open [37:15] heart. They recommended a song. [37:17] Somebody's one of the guys wives was [37:19] like, "You should do this song." And I'm [37:20] like, "What? Okay, we're now playing [37:23] requests by our wives. That's a thing [37:25] now for us." But I went in with an open [37:28] mind, open heart. I didn't initially [37:30] like the song, but when I started to [37:32] learn it, I was like, there's some [37:33] really neat stuff to appreciate here. [37:35] And now I'm really grateful for the [37:37] opportunity and uh it was we had just a [37:39] ball practicing it for two hours the [37:41] other night. This one song and it's [37:43] tough. And um again I think like the [37:46] more we approach this stuff with [37:48] humbleness, open mind, open heart, the [37:50] change approach change I should say um [37:53] the change might be hiring someone to do [37:56] things that you do perfectly well and [37:58] you sell to your clients all the time [38:01] that maybe there's value in [38:04] >> I can't believe you left the audience on [38:06] the cliffhanger like that. [38:08] >> Is it an Adam Ant song? Is it some other [38:10] extraneous [38:11] >> some other extraneous performer from the [38:13] 80s? Like [38:14] >> so this is the genesis of it. We're [38:16] playing uh a benefit in town here and [38:19] the theme of the benefit is camp like [38:22] summer camp like 4 camp or uh church [38:26] camp or whatever. Um and there's like a [38:29] movie called I think it's called Red Hot [38:31] Wet Summer or something like that from [38:33] 2001 something like that. It stars a [38:35] bunch of famous comedians like Paul Rudd [38:38] and I don't know who else, but um [38:40] there's a theme song from that that's by [38:44] Jefferson's Starship and it's called [38:45] Jane. And so [38:47] >> yeah, [38:47] >> I know some Jefferson Starship. I've [38:50] never heard this song and and I was like [38:53] >> Yeah. So that's the song and it's [38:56] fantastic. And we're like twisting it a [38:58] little so it sounds like cake. [39:00] >> Of course. Hey, you could tell you could [39:03] lie to people and say that you were [39:05] inspired by Cake's cover of the song, [39:08] right? [39:09] And that'll confuse everybody. [39:12] Toby, let's let's let's wrap this thing [39:14] up, man. First off, um happy [39:16] anniversary. [39:17] >> Happy anniversary, Kurt. [39:19] >> Secondly, where can folks get a hold of [39:20] you if they choose to? [39:21] >> You can find me on LinkedIn at um search [39:24] me Toby T O B Y. Last name is C R Y NS. [39:27] You can also go to the mighty mo that [39:30] ends in m o.com [39:32] uh where we do uh WordPress and SEO [39:36] stuff. Kurt, where can we find you? Same [39:39] thing, LinkedIn, but I'm not under Toby [39:41] Cryins. I'm under Kurt Vonan. I'm the [39:43] only Kurt Von in there. Easy to find. [39:45] And then my website is mñana noms. [39:48] mñana.com. [39:50] Boom. I think that's a wrap, man. [39:52] >> Thanks everybody. We'll see you next [39:54] time.  📄 **Full text:** ![[Full Document Contents/Articles/Lessons From One Year of Agency Action.md|Lessons From One Year of Agency Action by YouTube]] ## Highlights - hire someone who has expertise and you trust them to do the thing despite what your gut is telling you should be there and your experience and your you know and this is very very difficult for a business owner to do by the way if you ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01ktpx5vpe7028s9gzt68e52bz)) - Note: The expert's blind spot: trusting hired outside expertise over your own gut is very hard for a business owner — agencies struggle to apply their expertise to themselves. - Tags: atom/literature/h2