Narcissist Experts REVEAL the Signs You Must Never Ignore

Narcissist Experts REVEAL the Signs You Must Never Ignore ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/9sjyBM0z36A/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [Narcissist Experts REVEAL the Signs You Must Never Ignore](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sjyBM0z36A) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [narcissism, psychology, relationships, abuse-recovery, mental-health, toxic-relationships, therapy, childhood-trauma] > author: Lewis Howes > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sjyBM0z36A > date created: 2024-12-19 10:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: Narcissist Experts REVEAL The Signs You Must Never Ignore >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Learn the six types of narcissists — grandiose, vulnerable, malignant, communal, self-righteous, neglectful #narcissism - [H2] Watch for danger zone cues — lip pursing, distancing, high blink rate #body-language - [H3] Break generational trauma patterns — recognize family trance cycles #childhood-trauma ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Dr. Ramani Durvasula - Narcissism Expert](https://doctor-ramani.com) - [Vanessa Van Edwards - Behavior Expert](https://www.scienceofpeople.com) ## 📝 Summary - Master class featuring three experts on identifying and healing from narcissistic relationships - Dr. Ramani breaks down six types of narcissists: grandiose, vulnerable, malignant, communal, self-righteous, and neglectful - Vanessa Van Edwards reveals body language "danger zone" cues that expose manipulation - Esther Perel discusses cultural narcissism and covert control patterns - Jerry Wise explains how childhood narcissistic abuse creates dysfunctional adult patterns - Key takeaway: Recognition and boundary-setting are essential for breaking toxic cycles ## 📖 Main Content This comprehensive discussion reveals that narcissism manifests in multiple forms beyond the stereotypical arrogant personality. The vulnerable narcissist presents as chronically victimized and passive-aggressive, while the malignant narcissist combines coercion with sadistic tendencies. Communal narcissists gain validation through appearing altruistic while being abusive privately. Self-righteous narcissists display rigid moralistic judgment, and neglectful narcissists treat people as objects to be ignored until needed. Body language experts identify specific "danger zone" cues that reveal deception and manipulation, including lip pursing (withholding gesture), sudden distancing behavior, and elevated blink rates during lies. These physiological responses are difficult to control and often expose inauthentic behavior. The cultural context is crucial - we live in a "narcissistic culture" of constant self-promotion and validation-seeking. Covert narcissism operates through victimization and passive control rather than overt dominance. Breaking generational trauma patterns requires recognizing inherited family dynamics and creating conscious boundaries. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/9sjyBM0z36A?t=0) — [H1] Introduction to narcissist identification master class - Key idea: Many people don't realize they're dealing with narcissists because the behavior can look like care or protection - Evidence: "Narcissistic dynamics don't always look like what we expect... Sometimes they look like care. Sometimes they look like protection" #### ⏱️ [02:30](https://youtu.be/9sjyBM0z36A?t=150) — [H1] Grandiose narcissist - the traditional type - Key idea: This is the stereotypical arrogant, charismatic narcissist who actually achieves their grandiose claims - Evidence: "Grandiose people actually often do get them done. They will talk the big game and they'll kind of do the big game" #### ⏱️ [03:15](https://youtu.be/9sjyBM0z36A?t=195) — [H2] Vulnerable narcissist - passive-aggressive victimhood - Key idea: Most compelling form because they live in fantasies but never execute, always blaming others - Evidence: "This is where you see the sulleness, the petulence, the passive aggression, the chronic victimhood... everyone takes advantage of me" #### ⏱️ [04:45](https://youtu.be/9sjyBM0z36A?t=285) — [H1] Malignant narcissist - the most severe form - Key idea: Combines narcissism with psychopathy, machiavellianism, and sadism for coercive control - Evidence: "More coercive, who are more menacing, who are more isolating. This feels a little bit more like psychopathy" #### ⏱️ [06:20](https://youtu.be/9sjyBM0z36A?t=380) — [H2] Communal narcissist - the hidden humanitarian - Key idea: Gains validation by appearing as saviors publicly while being abusive privately - Evidence: "Everyone thinks they're a humanitarian... but behind the scenes they're not" #### ⏱️ [08:10](https://youtu.be/9sjyBM0z36A?t=490) — [H2] Self-righteous narcissist - rigid moralistic judgment - Key idea: Judgmental, rigid people who show no empathy even to family in crisis - Evidence: "Someone in their family has a hardship... they'll say well I didn't create this situation so I guess you'll have to figure it out" #### ⏱️ [10:30](https://youtu.be/9sjyBM0z36A?t=630) — [H3] Neglectful narcissist - treating people as objects - Key idea: They ignore everyone unless they need something, causing people to feel like they don't exist - Evidence: "They view everyone as object... you feel like a really neglected personal assistant" #### ⏱️ [13:45](https://youtu.be/9sjyBM0z36A?t=825) — [H1] Danger zone body language cues - Key idea: Certain physical cues reveal deception and manipulation that are hard to control - Evidence: "Danger zone cues are the cues that get us into trouble. They're the cues that liars use" #### ⏱️ [15:20](https://youtu.be/9sjyBM0z36A?t=920) — [H2] Lip pursing as withholding gesture - Key idea: Pressing lips into flat line reveals someone is holding something back or doesn't like what's being said - Evidence: "When we're literally trying to hold something in... we go [lip purse]. That is a universal withholding gesture" #### ⏱️ [18:30](https://youtu.be/9sjyBM0z36A?t=1110) — [H2] Elevated blink rate during deception - Key idea: Rapid blinking indicates nervousness and attempt to block out stimuli while processing lies - Evidence: "When we're really nervous, we literally want to close out stimuli... so we can process what's happening" #### ⏱️ [35:50](https://youtu.be/9sjyBM0z36A?t=2150) — [H1] Cultural narcissism vs clinical narcissism - Key idea: We live in a narcissistic culture of constant self-promotion that creates diagnostic criteria matching the era - Evidence: "We do live in a narcissistic culture... Once you are continuously evaluating yourself, proving yourself, performing" #### ⏱️ [38:45](https://youtu.be/9sjyBM0z36A?t=2325) — [H2] Covert narcissism through victimization - Key idea: Power can come from underneath through guilt manipulation and passive aggression - Evidence: "You can have power through victimization. You can make people feel guilty all the time" #### ⏱️ [52:20](https://youtu.be/9sjyBM0z36A?t=3140) — [H1] Breaking generational trauma cycles - Key idea: The worst damage comes from parents not breaking their own dysfunctional patterns - Evidence: "The thing that's going to make them more dysfunctional... is to not break their own cycle from their own past" #### ⏱️ [54:15](https://youtu.be/9sjyBM0z36A?t=3255) — [H3] Adult children of narcissists become self-critical - Key idea: Children of hypercritical parents often internalize that criticism and become harsh with themselves - Evidence: "Mom and dad... hypercritical and judgmental. Now I then grow up... But what am I to myself? Hypercritical and judgmental" ## 📚 References - [Dr. Ramani Durvasula](https://doctor-ramani.com/) - [Vanessa Van Edwards - Science of People](https://www.scienceofpeople.com/) - [Esther Perel](https://www.estherperel.com/) - [Jerry Wise - Family Therapy](https://jerrywise.com/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Narcissism comes in six distinct forms, from the obvious grandiose type to the hidden communal and neglectful varieties that are harder to spot - Body language reveals deception through involuntary cues like lip pursing, distancing behavior, and rapid blinking that manipulators struggle to control - We live in a culture that promotes narcissistic behavior, and covert narcissists control through victimization rather than obvious dominance - Childhood narcissistic abuse creates adults who struggle with self-criticism and continue dysfunctional patterns unless they consciously break the cycle ## 📰 Newsletter **Spot the Hidden Narcissists: Expert Warning Signs You Can't Ignore** Think you know what narcissism looks like? Think again. Leading experts reveal that the most dangerous narcissists often appear as caring helpers, rigid perfectionists, or chronic victims - not the obvious egomaniacs we expect. Dr. Ramani identifies six distinct types, including the "communal narcissist" who gains validation through appearing altruistic while being privately abusive. Meanwhile, body language expert Vanessa Van Edwards shares the involuntary "danger zone" cues that expose deception - like lip pursing and elevated blink rates that manipulators can't control. The key insight? Breaking these toxic patterns starts with recognition and firm boundaries, especially if you grew up in a narcissistic family system. **Essential Resources:** - [Dr. Ramani's Narcissism Resources](https://doctor-ramani.com) - [Science of People Body Language Guide](https://scienceofpeople.com) - [Esther Perel Relationship Resources](https://estherperel.com) ## ✅ Action Items #### Community - Develop narcissistic abuse survivor support networks and resources - Create educational content on recognizing covert manipulation tactics - Establish mentorship programs for breaking generational trauma patterns #### FAIR - Policy development around psychological safety in community spaces - Governance structures that prevent narcissistic capture of leadership roles - Transparency mechanisms to expose manipulative behavior patterns #### WordPress - Community: Training for meetup organizers on identifying and managing toxic community members - Support: Resources for community members dealing with narcissistic abuse - Documentation: Guidelines for maintaining psychological safety in collaborative environments ## 🧪 Hypotheses - People with narcissistic traits gravitate toward positions of community leadership and influence - Early intervention and education can prevent narcissistic abuse patterns from perpetuating - Body language training can improve people's ability to identify manipulative behavior - Community structures with transparency and accountability reduce narcissistic capture ### 📊 Methodology - Survey community leaders about experiences with manipulative members - Video analysis of suspected narcissistic behavior using danger zone cue framework - Longitudinal study of children from narcissistic families who receive early intervention - Comparative analysis of community health in transparent vs opaque organizational structures ### ❓ Questions - How can communities create early warning systems for narcissistic behavior without enabling false accusations? - What governance structures most effectively prevent narcissistic capture while maintaining efficiency? - How do we balance psychological safety with the need for diverse perspectives in community discourse? ### 🔮 Future Research - Development of AI systems to detect danger zone cues in video communications - Exploration of cultural differences in narcissistic behavior manifestation - Investigation of effective therapy modalities for breaking generational trauma cycles ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Recognition skills can dramatically improve relationship and professional outcomes - Policy: Organizations need clear protocols for addressing manipulative behavior patterns - Security: Narcissistic individuals pose unique risks to community cohesion and safety - Education: Teaching body language awareness and boundary-setting should be prioritized - Funding: Resources needed for survivor support networks and prevention programs ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 9th Grade (Flesch-Kincaid) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Clear categorization of narcissist types, body language demonstrations - Improve: Infographic of danger zone cues, visual family tree of trauma patterns #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full audio/video format with expert interviews - Improve: Podcast summary episodes, guided meditation for trauma recovery #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Detailed explanations, expert quotes, real-world examples - Improve: Glossary of psychological terms, comparison charts between types #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Role-playing scenarios implied in examples - Improve: Interactive body language practice exercises, boundary-setting workshops #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Systematic categorization, cause-effect relationships - Improve: Decision trees for identifying types, logical frameworks for recovery #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Group discussion format, relationship-focused content - Improve: Support group facilitation guides, peer coaching frameworks #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Self-assessment opportunities, personal reflection prompts - Improve: Journaling exercises, self-paced recovery workbooks #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Discussion of cultural/environmental factors in narcissism - Improve: Ecosystem thinking about family systems, natural healing metaphors ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, descriptive content organization - Improve: Alt text for body language demonstrations, transcript formatting #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard video player controls - Improve: Timestamp navigation shortcuts, chapter jumping functionality #### Contrast and readability - Present: Good contrast in video presentation - Improve: High contrast mode for danger zone cue identification #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive video player - Improve: Adjustable caption sizing, mobile-optimized chapter navigation #### Media and captions - Present: Full video with audio - Improve: Detailed captions including emotional context, downloadable transcripts #### Forms and interactions - Present: Basic video interaction - Improve: Interactive self-assessment tools with accessible design ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion of cultural variations in narcissism expression - Improve: Examples from diverse cultural contexts, multilingual resources #### Inclusive language - Present: Gender-neutral language in most contexts - Improve: Consistent use of inclusive pronouns, trauma-informed language #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear chapter structure, predictable format - Improve: Content warnings for trauma discussions, sensory-friendly viewing options #### Representation - Present: Diverse expert perspectives, varied relationship examples - Improve: More diverse case studies, representation of different family structures #### Psychological safety - Present: Trauma-informed approach to sensitive topics - Improve: Clear content warnings, crisis resources prominently displayed ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Expert credentials and clinical experience support classification systems - Inductive strength: Pattern recognition from multiple case examples builds understanding - Causal reasoning: Clear links established between childhood trauma and adult dysfunction - Analogical --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] If you keep finding yourself drained, [00:02] confused, or questioning your worth [00:04] after certain relationships, then this [00:07] episode is for you. Now, have you ever [00:09] wondered, why do I always attract this [00:11] type of person? Or why do I feel so [00:14] small after loving them? Well, I hate to [00:17] break it to you. You may have been [00:19] dealing with a narcissist and you didn't [00:21] even realize it. And the truth is, [00:24] narcissistic dynamics don't always look [00:27] like what we expect. They don't always [00:29] look like a loud ego. Sometimes they [00:32] look like care. Sometimes they look like [00:36] protection. And it can be confusing. So, [00:38] how do you spot it? And how do you [00:40] protect yourself? And most importantly, [00:42] how do you heal from it when you've [00:44] dealt with it without carrying that [00:47] damage into future relationships? Well, [00:50] today I've put together a powerful [00:51] master class where we're bringing in the [00:54] world's leading experts and we're going [00:56] to be helping you identify the signs, [00:58] break patterns, and rebuild your [01:01] self-rust and learn how to create [01:03] healthy, safe, and secure relationships [01:06] moving forward. In this first section, [01:08] we have narcissism expert Dr. Romney [01:11] Dasula. She is the gold standard on this [01:14] topic and she's going to break down the [01:16] six different types of narcissists that [01:18] you need to look out for. Let's check [01:20] this out. [01:21] >> Grandio, which is the traditional [01:22] arrogant, pretentious, [01:25] charming, charismatic, you know, kind of [01:28] shiny narcissist. That's your kind of [01:29] prototype of the narcissist. There's the [01:31] vulnerable narcissist. This is probably [01:34] to me the most compelling form of [01:35] narcissism because this is where you see [01:37] the sulleness, the petulence, the [01:40] passive aggression, the chronic [01:42] victimhood, the social anxiety, the [01:44] failure to launch. These are people who [01:46] live in fantasies of the great things [01:48] they're going to do, but they never do [01:50] them. [01:50] >> Wow. [01:50] >> The grandiose people actually often do [01:52] get them done. They will talk the big [01:54] game and they'll kind of do the big [01:56] game. [01:56] >> So the vulnerable doesn't mean they're [01:58] actually intimate and vulnerable with [01:59] you. It means that they [02:01] >> they themselves are vulnerable, [02:03] >> but they don't actually take action. [02:04] >> Correct. And they and [02:06] >> you tell everyone, I'm going to do this [02:07] project or this thing [02:08] >> and you know why I couldn't do it [02:09] because that guy didn't give me the [02:10] money and that guy was scammed me and [02:12] that you know everyone takes advantage [02:14] of me and that person stole my idea. [02:16] That's that's that [02:17] >> the vulnerable. Okay. [02:17] >> The vulnerable. Okay. [02:19] >> Then there's the malignant. Now to me [02:21] the malignant narcissist is the most [02:22] severe form of narcissism. And that's [02:24] when we talk about stuff like the dark [02:26] tetrd. And the dark tetrd is composed of [02:29] narcissism, psychopathy, mchavelianism, [02:32] the willingness to take advantage of [02:33] other people, and sadism, and I also [02:35] believe paranoia sits in there, too. [02:37] Right? So, in malignant narcissism, [02:39] we're talking about people who are more [02:40] coercive, who are more menacing, who are [02:44] more isolating. This feels a little bit [02:46] more like psychopathy, but it's still [02:48] narcissism. That's much more severe. [02:50] Okay. Then we have the communal [02:52] narcissists. [02:53] >> Communal. [02:53] >> Communal. And these are the folks who [02:55] get so all narcissistic folks need [02:57] validation. The nar the communal [02:59] narcissistic folks are interesting [03:00] because they get their validation by [03:02] being perceived as saviors, rescuers and [03:05] dookers [03:06] >> like cult leaders or more [03:07] >> that's a severe. So a cult leader would [03:09] be a communal malignant narcissist. That [03:11] would be so these are like cocktails, [03:13] right? These like you move every you put [03:14] it all together. At the extreme, a [03:17] communal malignant narcissist cult [03:19] leader. But some communal narcissists [03:20] can be could be a mother who does all [03:24] the activities and the PTA and is the is [03:27] the helps the little league and raises [03:29] the money and goes to the gallas and [03:31] goes home and screams at her kids and is [03:32] horrible and abuses her partner. [03:34] >> But on the surface looks like she's [03:36] >> they think she's an a saint amongst us. [03:39] It's the person who walks around and [03:40] everyone thinks they're a humanitarian [03:42] and people are like, "No, no, no. I [03:43] worked for their nonprofit and like they [03:45] it was a hellscape, right? [03:47] >> Yeah. When you look behind the curtain, [03:48] you see [03:49] >> bingo. So, it's that's the communal [03:51] narcissist. So, they're they get [03:53] validation by being by the sense of look [03:56] what a good person they're rescuing [03:58] puppies and they're they're doing this [04:00] thing and they're raising all this money [04:01] and they're so good, [04:02] >> but behind the scenes they're not [04:04] >> not. So, it's not saying people do nice [04:06] things are communal narcissists. It's [04:08] it's that that they continue to have the [04:10] lack of empathy, entitlement, all that [04:12] other stuff. So, it's like you can, you [04:13] know, because I'm like, okay, well, you [04:15] know, I want to I want to build a [04:16] community and serve people. So, how do [04:18] you build a community? You've got a big [04:19] audience. Like, how do we build [04:21] communities without [04:22] >> that becoming a thing? Is it just [04:24] because if you're not consistent with [04:25] service all around you and your [04:27] relationships, then you're more [04:29] >> So, I mean, are you being mean to other [04:30] people? So, like if I was [04:32] >> public facing, you look like the best [04:33] thing ever, but behind the scenes. [04:35] >> Exactly. So you're mean to your partner. [04:37] You're mean to your family. You're mean [04:39] to your people who work. [04:40] >> You're inconsistent. [04:42] >> You're Well, you're you're consistent. [04:43] You're consistently mean to the people [04:44] who are behind the curtain. You're [04:46] consistently sort of putting on a show [04:47] in front of the curtain. [04:48] >> Yeah. Yeah. But you're not consistent on [04:49] both ways. No. And that's like service [04:51] mindset. Okay. Comm. [04:53] >> No. Communal. And then there's the [04:54] self-righteous narcissist. And the [04:56] self-righteous narcissist is judgmental, [04:59] moralistic, rigid. They're often funky [05:02] with money. Um they will like they will [05:07] this would be a kind of person who has a [05:11] so much money and someone in their [05:14] family has a hardship. They they had a [05:17] job loss and then their kid needs you [05:18] know needs medical care and they'll say [05:20] well I didn't create this situation so I [05:23] guess you'll have to figure it out. [05:24] >> They have no heart. [05:25] >> Like this is it feels like no heart but [05:27] there's also this really rigid [05:28] judgmental and they judge people from [05:30] the sense of well look at all I built. I [05:32] guess I must have worked hard. They'll [05:33] never account for their luck, right? Or [05:35] sometimes their absence of bad luck, [05:37] that kind of thing. They will say, if [05:38] they say dinner's at 6 and you show up [05:41] at 6:30 because your kid got sick, [05:43] they'll say, "I'm sorry, we already [05:45] ate." So, it's very, it feels very [05:47] rigid, cold, moralistic, miserly, [05:51] obsessive. These are people who are [05:52] often workaholics and with little care [05:54] for how it would affect anyone. It's [05:56] like there's workaholics out there who [05:58] check in on other people like I'm going [05:59] to make time for you or once you and [06:02] we're going to do we're taking a [06:02] vacation when this is done whatever and [06:04] they're communicating and people are [06:06] aware okay they're doing this so we [06:07] could buy the house or whatever. [06:09] >> So is it possible to be self-righteous [06:10] and not be a narcissist then? [06:12] >> I don't think you can ever be [06:13] self-righteous and healthy because I [06:15] think if you're self-righteous you're [06:16] like I'm better than you. [06:18] >> Ah gotcha. [06:18] >> Right. So, they you'll even see [06:20] self-righteous narcissism in some of [06:21] these kinds of exercise zealots who are [06:24] like, I wake up at 4:00 a.m. and then I [06:26] milk my goat and I make a smoothie and [06:29] then I do a thousand thousand crunches [06:31] and run 10 million miles and then I work [06:33] and then I journal and then I this and I [06:35] sleep at 8:00 and I'm like, what are you [06:37] talking about? Like, is there no other [06:38] human baby in your life? Like, how do [06:40] you deal with a crying sister? I tell [06:42] her to go to hell and I drink more goat [06:43] milk, you know? I mean, it's that that [06:45] can be self like and the reason I'm in [06:47] shape and I'm going to live to be 179 [06:49] years old is because I do all this and [06:51] you don't you lazy awful person. That's [06:53] self-righteous. [06:54] >> Lacking compassion, lacking [06:56] understanding, [06:56] >> lack of lack of awareness of others. So, [06:58] that self-righteousness is sort of where [07:00] the the lack of empathy sits, right? So, [07:03] I don't think you can be self I don't [07:05] think there's good self-righteousness. I [07:07] don't think all self-righteous people [07:08] are narcissistic, but many people said [07:10] to me that self-righteous narcissism is [07:12] really what happened in their family of [07:14] origin. It was a parent. So there would [07:16] almost be this unrealistic expectation [07:18] that the child would adhere to rigid [07:21] obsessive rules like don't touch this, [07:23] don't do this, don't sit there, eat like [07:25] this, and so the kid never got to be a [07:27] kid. [07:29] >> Okay, number six. [07:31] >> And number six would be more of a [07:32] neglectful narcissist. So these are the [07:34] people who they will not they view [07:37] everyone as object. So coffee cup [07:40] whatever [07:42] and they and they just neglect them [07:44] until they need them. [07:45] >> They just discard them or they just [07:48] don't give them attention or energy or [07:50] >> they don't attune. They don't have to [07:51] give them attention. They don't attune [07:52] to them. They don't they when a person [07:57] around them is struggling [07:59] they won't care. that it's it's it's [08:02] >> a lack of empathy. [08:03] >> It's a lack of empathy, but it's a lack [08:05] of like for example, a malignant or a [08:07] grandiose narcissist might actually get [08:09] mad at someone like, "Oh my gosh, like [08:12] why do you keep talking to me?" And [08:13] people in relationships, neglectful [08:15] narcissists will say, "I'll take it cuz [08:17] at least that person was listening." But [08:19] people in these relationships will [08:21] literally feel like they're losing their [08:23] minds because the person with them is [08:26] literally not noticing unless they need [08:29] something from you. [08:30] >> Wow. So, they're giving the cold [08:31] shoulder. They don't speak to them for [08:32] days, whatever. [08:33] >> Whatever. They just don't notice. They [08:35] don't care. They won't know. Like, you [08:36] might say like, "I have the biggest [08:38] presentation of the year next week." [08:40] They won't even ask. [08:41] >> Wow. It's all about them. [08:42] >> It's all about them, but in this weird [08:45] way, but and and they don't even take [08:47] notice of other people. So, it is a um [08:51] people who I've known clients in this [08:54] experience and they'll say it's as [08:56] though I didn't exist, but then when I [09:00] had the piece of information or [09:01] something they needed, I existed. So, [09:03] you feel like a really neglected [09:04] personal assistant. [09:06] >> Oh my gosh. [09:08] >> In this next section, we are speaking [09:10] with behavior expert Vanessa Van [09:13] Edwards. She's going to show the [09:15] physical signs, the body language that [09:17] tells you exactly who you're dealing [09:20] with. [09:21] >> Can you talk to me the difference [09:22] between charisma and narcissism? [09:24] >> Mhm. [09:25] >> And how can you spot when someone is [09:27] actually warm and caring and [09:29] charismatic? [09:30] >> Yeah. [09:31] >> Versus someone who uses the skills or [09:34] the tools of charisma [09:36] >> in their narcissistic approach towards [09:39] manipulating, controlling, and getting [09:40] what they want in life. So, this is my [09:43] biggest fear with this book. This is my [09:44] this is my single biggest fear and it uh [09:47] was an issue for me when I first started [09:49] writing it [09:50] >> is I'll be honest. You can use this book [09:52] for manipulation. [09:53] >> Yeah, of course. [09:54] >> And that scares me. [09:56] >> And when a smart person who's [09:57] narcissistic is going to study [09:59] everything and then start using [10:01] >> it scares me. [10:01] >> So, how can you tell the difference? The [10:04] subtle cues, these are very subtle now. [10:06] >> Very subtle. Yeah. So, we're talking [10:08] about big to subtle, right? There's like [10:09] a range of them. So first is it is my [10:11] biggest fear with this book that people [10:12] do not have the right intentions and my [10:14] hope is that we can actually use these [10:16] powers for good and not evil. That is [10:18] the number one thing is you you can if [10:20] you want to. Here's the good news. There [10:22] are certain cues that we cannot control [10:23] and if you have bad intentions they will [10:26] leak. So I call these danger zone cues. [10:28] So in the book I talk about there's four [10:30] different types of cues. There's highly [10:31] warm, non-verbal, verbal and vocal. So [10:34] these are things that make you highly [10:35] warm, highly trustworthy, highly [10:36] likable. There's highly competent cues, [10:39] verbal, non-verbal, and vocal. And then [10:41] there's charismatic, the ones that are [10:42] just knock it out of the park. Like, [10:44] they're just great. And the last one is [10:46] danger zone cues. Danger zone cues are [10:48] the cues that get us into trouble. [10:50] They're the cues that liars use. [10:52] >> They're the way that we leak guilt and [10:53] shame. Actually, shame is not a bad [10:55] thing. It's only when you have guilt uh [10:56] that you've done something wrong. So, in [10:58] the danger zone, it is very hard to [11:01] inhibit those cues. So, I teach them [11:03] because I want people to be able to spot [11:05] them. [11:05] >> Okay. What are those cues? [11:07] >> Okay, so there's a bunch and I'll let's [11:09] talk about as many as we can. So, [11:10] >> and this might be someone who's very [11:12] successful, someone who's accomplished a [11:15] lot potentially, someone that seems very [11:17] credible, someone that could be [11:19] >> in a power position, owning a business [11:21] or having influence online or something [11:23] like that, right? [11:24] >> Yeah. Yeah. [11:25] >> Extremely success. They could be [11:26] successful. They could seem credible, [11:28] trustworthy. [11:28] >> Yes. [11:29] >> But might be super narcissistic [11:31] underneath. [11:32] >> Yes. So there's a couple danger zone [11:33] cues that we can control which a [11:35] manipulative person could inhibit, [11:37] right? So for example, one that I found [11:39] that I talk about in the book is Lance [11:41] Armstrong. [11:42] >> So Lance Armstrong, for those who don't [11:43] know, spoiler alert, uh Lance Armstrong [11:45] was doping. So if you haven't, someone [11:47] was like, there was spoilers in the book [11:49] and I was like, you haven't heard of [11:50] that yet? [11:52] >> I also talk about Britney Spears in the [11:53] book uh because there's some really [11:54] interesting cues on her, which I think [11:56] why we're worried about her, why her [11:58] fans worry. She's she shows a lot of [11:59] danger zone cues. So Lance Armstrong in [12:01] one of his early interviews on Larry [12:03] King Live, he's asked about doping and [12:06] he does what's called a lip purse. So a [12:08] lip purse is, [12:10] >> okay, when we push our line our lips [12:12] into a flat line, we mash our lips [12:14] together. That is a universal [12:15] withholding gesture. [12:17] >> So when we're literally trying to hold [12:19] something in or hold something back or [12:20] we don't like what's being said or [12:22] heard, we go. [12:24] And so you'll notice that when someone [12:26] has been asked something they don't [12:28] like, when someone had to lie, a lot of [12:30] the times, so we did a massive [12:32] experiment in our lab where we asked [12:33] people to send in videos of themselves [12:35] lying. Actually, you play it in the [12:36] book. It's called lie to me. So I have [12:37] you lie to me. Uh play this lie to me [12:39] game to diagnose your own tells. It's [12:41] very important [12:42] >> to know your own tells because you [12:44] should know what your danger zone cues [12:45] are when you're leaking them. [12:47] >> And one of you should know those. It's [12:49] good to know those in the back of your [12:50] pocket. Um do that with your partner, [12:51] right? you we want you want them to know [12:53] what those are too. Um so one thing that [12:55] we noticed is on lies that was one of [12:58] the biggest indicators. So in lie to me [13:00] game we ask you to do two things. We ask [13:01] you to tell us uh an embarrassing story [13:03] your most embarrassing story and then a [13:06] fake embarrassing story [13:07] >> and we want to see if we can tell the [13:09] difference if we if we cut the clips. [13:11] Can we know which one is the fake one? [13:12] >> Man, that'd be interesting. [13:13] >> Yes. And it's amazing. You see the same [13:16] danger zone cues over and over again. [13:17] right before someone's about to lie and [13:19] tell their fake embarrassing story. They [13:20] go, "Okay." And they lip purse right [13:23] before they're going to do it. And [13:24] that's because we don't like lying. Our [13:26] body knows it's going to get us into [13:27] trouble. So, we're like, "Stop it. Stop [13:28] it. Stop it." And we hold ourselves [13:30] back. You ask a woman, "How much do you [13:32] weigh?" And she'll go, [13:34] >> like, literally close those lips because [13:35] no woman wants to talk about how much [13:36] she weighs. So, it's a withholding [13:38] gesture. And so, um, that's the first [13:39] thing is you want to look for some of [13:41] the bigger cues. Withholding gestures. [13:43] Uh, lip purse is one. Uh, a sudden [13:46] distancing behavior. So, we also noticed [13:47] that liars in our lab, they wanted to [13:49] like get away from the lie, like as if [13:51] it smelled. [13:52] >> So, like when they were telling their [13:53] most embarrassing story, they'd be like [13:54] leaning in, using gestures. Oh, it was [13:56] so embarrassing. Remember, embarrassing [13:58] stories are negative, [13:59] >> right? [14:00] >> It's not like it's a positive memory. [14:02] It's like people are like, and they do a [14:03] shame touch. The universal shame touch [14:05] is when people uh touch their fingers to [14:07] the side of their forehead. [14:08] >> This happened and I'm like, "Oh gosh, [14:11] I'm so embarrassed." [14:12] >> So, they usually tell the truth and they [14:13] do like this. [14:14] >> Yes. Because they're actually [14:15] embarrassed, right? So these are all [14:16] good a like congruent, right? We're [14:18] seeing embarrassment and shame gesture. [14:21] We're seeing negative nonverbal and [14:22] people shaking their head. I can't [14:23] believe that happened, right? Like they [14:25] oh they're so upset that happened. We're [14:26] seeing cringes. We're seeing fear. We're [14:28] seeing sadness. Congruent, right? Like [14:30] that's all congruent emotion. [14:32] >> On the bad stories, we often see people [14:34] will lip purse and they try to get away [14:36] from it. So they'll say a statement and [14:37] then uh you know and then um and they're [14:42] literally like as far away. I hope I'm [14:45] not messing up my audio. They're as far [14:46] away from the lie as they can possibly [14:48] get. They're leaning back. They'll [14:50] sometimes literally lean their head back [14:51] in the chair. [14:53] >> And that's because physically we want to [14:54] distance ourselves from things we don't [14:56] like. [14:57] >> So, we're looking for lip purses, sudden [14:59] distancing. And there's a lot of cues [15:00] that we can't control, right? So, blink [15:02] rate is another one. Eye blocking [15:03] behavior is um liars have higher blink [15:06] rates. [15:06] >> They blink more. [15:08] >> Yeah. actually in uh Britney Spears, she [15:09] had a a really interesting interview [15:11] that I um I actually break this down on [15:12] my YouTube channel, so you don't even [15:13] have to read the book if you want to see [15:14] it where I break down the cues in this [15:16] early interview. This is right before [15:18] the conservatorship started. So very [15:20] very full of cues cuz it's right before [15:22] it happened. And she gets asked a very [15:25] difficult question. And she all of a [15:27] sudden her blink rate goes from a normal [15:29] rate to a high rate. So she starts to to [15:31] really quickly blink her eyes like this. [15:33] And that is because when we're really [15:35] nervous, we literally want to close out [15:37] stimuli to not see what's happening so [15:39] we can process what's happening. So [15:42] blink rate is something that a lot of [15:43] manipulative people cannot control. In [15:45] fact, when I share this, people go, "Oh, [15:47] I know a very narcissistic, manipulative [15:49] person who has a very high blink rate." [15:52] >> Interesting. [15:52] >> Because they're literally like trying to [15:54] block out the lie or the manipulation. [15:56] And so they'll sound really good, but [15:58] they're like really like processing a [15:59] lot. And you and you're like, "Why are [16:01] they blinking so much?" And it's because [16:03] they're trying to process. [16:04] >> Oh my goodness. [16:05] >> So just knowing those cues are not all [16:06] bad on their own, but just it's [16:08] important to know what those cues look [16:09] like so you can spot them. And I do [16:11] think I really think manipulative people [16:14] will get caught eventually. [16:15] >> It is very hard to fake competence. [16:18] >> It is very hard to fake warmth. It's [16:21] hard to keep that up. [16:23] >> And so for the long game, [16:25] >> yes, you can learn a couple of these [16:26] cues and try to master your way around [16:28] them. [16:29] >> But for the long game, it's really hard. [16:30] I mean, look at, you know, Theronos, [16:32] right? So, [16:34] >> um, Elizabeth Holmes. So, spoiler alert, [16:37] Theronos did not go well. I feel like I [16:39] always have to say that. [16:40] >> So, one of her interesting cues is, um, [16:43] I don't know if you've ever seen her [16:44] talk, she has a really she uses a really [16:46] deep voice, like fakey deep, like down [16:48] here. [16:49] >> And people used to say like, "Is that [16:51] real?" It's because she read in some Q [16:54] book, it wasn't mine because my book [16:55] wasn't out then, thank goodness. She [16:57] read in some book that having a lower [16:59] tone of voice makes you more competent. [17:01] And that is true. [17:02] >> Research has found that people who use [17:04] the lower end of their natural voice [17:06] tone are seen as competent. That's for [17:07] both men and women. [17:08] >> So you have a very deep voice and it [17:10] serves you really well. [17:11] >> When I'm talking right now, I'm trying [17:13] to use the lowest end of my natural [17:15] register. When I'm talking to my [17:16] toddler, [17:17] >> right? Right. When I'm talking to my [17:18] toddler, I'm much more up here, you [17:20] know? Hey baby, how are you? But if I [17:22] were to do my entire interview like [17:23] this, it would drive you crazy. Right. [17:25] You wouldn't feel as competent. [17:26] >> No. And it wouldn't people would go, I I [17:28] can't I'm not taking her or take her [17:29] seriously. So she read that study [17:32] obviously [17:32] >> went an octave lower. [17:33] >> There you go. And went an octave lower. [17:36] So it it wasn't her natural voice tone. [17:37] It was like one step lower than her [17:39] voice tone. So she was always talking [17:40] like this. And when she did an [17:42] interview, she would talk like this. And [17:43] you would hear that this just doesn't [17:44] sound natural. And part of your Spidey [17:46] sense would be like, why is she talking [17:48] so low? It sounds really unnatural. And [17:51] it came out that when she was drunk, her [17:54] employees noticed that she went back [17:56] into her natural register. [17:57] >> Wow. [17:58] >> So there are cues that they will [18:00] eventually [18:01] >> don't drink alcohol. [18:03] >> And that is the point of this story. [18:05] Don't drink alcohol. You [18:06] >> or you're going to get caught. [18:08] >> So like you can't keep it up for that [18:09] long is that she was faking that cue. We [18:12] think [18:12] >> I think you're also just your body is [18:14] out of integrity. Like the more you're [18:16] you're keeping back something, you're [18:18] telling a slight lie or whatever. I [18:19] mean, I felt this from the past cuz I've [18:22] been out of integrity in my life at [18:23] different times from different stages of [18:24] childhood to adulthood, right? For [18:26] little white lies to bigger stuff hiding [18:28] from my parents or whatever it is. [18:30] >> They feel bad. [18:30] >> So, you're like like something inside of [18:32] you feels off, right? And then you got [18:34] to like keep the lie up and you're like, [18:36] uh, eventually you're going to explode [18:38] or you're going to have a heart attack [18:39] or something. It's going to leak. [18:41] >> It's going to leak leak cues. [18:43] >> Leak you leak those cues and like those [18:45] are the cues that we're looking for. [18:46] Like I want you to be on the lookout for [18:48] them because when something feels bad [18:49] like even like something feels bad even [18:51] just then when you were saying it felt [18:52] bad your voice tone changed just then [18:55] >> because when you think about oh I'm like [18:57] think about seeing a toxic person and I [18:58] know that people probably have toxic [19:00] people in their lives and this is why [19:01] toxic people [19:03] >> are so challenging because toxic people [19:05] put us out of integrity. Toxic people [19:09] force us to use warm cues where we don't [19:11] feel like it. [19:12] >> Now we can do it. [19:13] >> What do you mean we got to be nice to [19:15] them or something? [19:15] >> Yeah. So, like if you have a toxic [19:17] person, and this is the thorn in and I [19:19] think our work is I want everyone to be [19:21] their best selves. I want them to show [19:22] up as their warmest, most confident [19:24] self. But what if you have a toxic [19:25] person? How do you do that [19:27] authentically? And this is what's so [19:29] hard about toxic people. [19:30] >> You have a colleague or co-orker or [19:32] family member [19:33] >> that you don't like, right? And you have [19:36] to break out the fake warmth cues. Oh, [19:38] hi. How are you? [19:41] >> Right? And so what do we do? We fake [19:43] smile, right? So, oh, it's so good to [19:44] see you. Mhm. [19:47] Doesn't look like it, right? Or we say, [19:49] "Oh, yeah. So, how Oh, that sounds good. [19:51] Congratulations, [19:54] >> right? [19:54] >> You know, your LA roots are coming back [19:56] to you." [19:57] >> And Right. That's why toxic people [19:59] challenge us is because they come into [20:01] our lives, we know we're supposed to be [20:03] warm and so we try to force that warm [20:06] sound and it comes out sort of forced [20:08] and then it makes us feel bad and then [20:10] we're trying to overcompensate for it. [20:11] And so, you know what? The antidote here [20:13] is not learning more fake warmth cues. [20:15] It's It's time to get rid of toxic [20:16] people. [20:17] >> I think that's like the side effect, [20:19] >> right, [20:20] >> of the book is like [20:21] >> don't keep them around. Yeah. [20:22] >> Don't keep those people around because [20:24] >> it will leak and so set boundaries. [20:26] >> What do you mean it will leak? Like your [20:28] integrity will leak because you're [20:29] constantly trying to be nice, but [20:30] they're actually out of integrity cuz [20:32] you don't want to be. Is that right? [20:33] >> Right. That's exactly right. [20:34] >> So your body is like, I'm doing [20:36] something that's not authentic to me [20:38] because I feel like I have to with this [20:39] person. And the more frequently you do [20:41] that, you feel out of integrity with [20:42] yourself. [20:43] >> Yep. Exactly. yourself [20:45] >> with yourself. That was a question you [20:47] asked. I'm like, "Yes, it was." Yes. [20:50] Yes. It was perfect cuz you were asking [20:51] a question I knew. Yes. [20:52] >> Is if you allow toxic people to come [20:54] into your life, especially without [20:56] boundaries, we have to have some of [20:57] those people we deal with. But if you [20:58] don't have boundaries around them, they [20:59] come into your life and you have to fake [21:01] niceness and that feels really bad. [21:03] >> What happens if let's just say there's a [21:05] person you don't like. [21:06] >> Let's just say maybe they're not toxic. [21:07] There's someone you don't like and you [21:08] don't like being nice to cuz you feel [21:10] like [21:11] >> why am I sp I just don't nothing wrong [21:13] with them. there's not my person. Yeah, [21:14] >> totally. [21:15] >> Let's say you're in a work environment. [21:17] >> Yeah. [21:17] >> And you're at a company got 50, 100 [21:19] employees that you're working with, [21:20] you're on a team with, and you're just, [21:22] okay, I'm here. [21:23] >> Yeah. [21:23] >> Is it better to be inauthentic and lie [21:27] and and act nice around this person, [21:30] >> friendly, fake, how are you, interested, [21:32] even though you've like been around them [21:34] for 6 months or a year and you realize [21:35] you really don't like them? Mhm. [21:37] >> Or is it better to go right up to the [21:39] person and after 6 months say, "You know [21:40] what? I just want to be completely [21:42] honest and not fake with you cuz I feel [21:44] like I've been fake." [21:45] >> Mhm. [21:45] >> That I don't connect with you. I don't [21:47] like you. I think I think you're out of [21:49] integrity. I think you're inauthentic. [21:51] And maybe I'm being judgmental, but I'd [21:53] rather be honest with you. And fake nice [21:55] to you. [21:55] >> Okay, that's A and B. Can I give a C? [21:57] >> Sure. [21:57] >> Okay. So, I don't believe in fake it [22:00] till you make it. So, I I I try not to [22:03] give like fake it. I don't I don't roll [22:05] that way. like I just think it's [22:06] exhausting. I think it's going to leak. [22:08] The C option here is to not fake warmth, [22:11] but is to double down on competence. So [22:14] if you are working with someone that you [22:15] don't like, the one thing that you do [22:17] have to do is get stuff done with them, [22:19] >> right? You have to master your tasks. [22:21] You have to be on it. You have to be [22:22] responsive to emails. So that is [22:23] something that you can be authentic [22:24] about because to do your job, you have [22:27] to be able to get along with them in a [22:29] very professional setting. So I would [22:31] skip all the fake warmth stuff. Don't [22:33] confidence. [22:34] >> Yeah. [22:34] >> Right. Like stick with where you're [22:36] authentic, which is like I don't need to [22:37] hear about your weekend. [22:38] >> I don't need to go to happy hour with [22:40] you. [22:40] >> Um I don't need a fake sitting with you [22:42] for coffee. But you know what? We can [22:43] get stuff done. You know what? We align [22:45] on goals. [22:46] >> Create boundaries around the hey, let's [22:48] go have coffee. Actually, I'm busy. [22:50] >> I'm so busy. I'm so busy today, but you [22:52] know what? Let's do a brainstorm session [22:53] tomorrow at the end of the day so we can [22:54] really kick off. [22:55] >> Yeah. Yeah. [22:56] >> So get back to like the mission, the [22:58] task on hand, the competence. And maybe [23:00] you've just got to be like, "Okay, this [23:02] is someone where, you know, 20 seconds a [23:03] day I've got to be around someone that's [23:05] trying to be fake liy with everyone and [23:08] I'll just wait. [23:09] >> I'm going to get stuff done [23:10] >> and then I'll move on to the next [23:11] thing." [23:11] >> That's it. Exactly. Because then at [23:12] least you're focusing on where you can [23:14] be authentic. [23:15] >> And also that's even if that were to [23:17] come up, you could honestly say that [23:19] kind of conversation could be listen [23:21] like, you know, I'm [23:22] >> I'm not really into like, you know, [23:24] connecting at work. I'm more about [23:25] getting it done. I I want to get home to [23:27] my kids and my family. I hope that's [23:28] okay with you. you know, when we're [23:30] together, if it's all right, I might [23:31] skip lunch and just have us like, you [23:33] know, work it out and be really [23:34] efficient. I really appreciate how [23:36] efficient you are because it allows me [23:37] to get home to my kids faster, [23:39] >> right? Like that's authentic. So, what [23:41] can you appreciate about them that's [23:43] competent? [23:44] >> Yes. [23:44] >> What can you highlight about them that's [23:45] competent? And that's [23:46] >> what you don't feel like they're warm or [23:48] competent. You're like, "This person on [23:50] a team is just that they can't get [23:52] anything done. They're not smart and [23:54] they have fake attitude around me all [23:55] day." [23:56] >> I mean, this depends on how you feel, [23:57] but I would say deal with it. like you [23:59] got like go to your boss, [24:00] >> right? And say, "Hey, I just put on a [24:02] different team or [24:03] >> you say like I don't know how I can work [24:05] with this person. I don't want to be [24:06] unauthentic, but I'm telling you that [24:08] we're not getting stuff done and they [24:10] are causing issues on the team." Like I [24:11] don't like to ignore that stuff. Like [24:12] you could hope it gets better, but ask [24:14] for help. If you have someone on your [24:16] team or someone in your life who is not [24:18] warm nor competent and doesn't treat you [24:20] with warmth or competence, either get [24:21] them out of your life, [24:23] >> set a boundary or get help. [24:24] >> Give them plan or something. Yeah. [24:26] >> Yeah. Don't live with it. Life is too [24:28] short to feel fakeely competent or fake [24:32] warmth, [24:32] >> right? What's been the uh I think I [24:34] asked you this last time. What's been [24:36] the charisma strategy? Yeah, [24:39] >> if you want to call it strategy. [24:40] >> You weren't sure about that. You weren't [24:42] sure. I don't know what the word is [24:43] right but what is the charisma or social [24:45] cue that you've learned in the last 6 [24:47] months that has brought some new [24:50] attention to your life where you said ah [24:52] I wasn't aware of that fully but now the [24:54] research is showing that when someone [24:56] does this it improves this [24:58] >> there's a new cue that I snuck into the [25:00] book in the very last draft because I [25:02] just learned it [25:03] >> and this is actually brought to me by [25:05] one it's a it's a couple of my male [25:06] readers and I'm so curious okay do you [25:08] agree with this Lewis okay here's what [25:11] they Good. So, in the book, I had a [25:13] whole section on nodding. So, nodding, [25:15] affirmative nods, upside down, right? [25:17] Yes. I [25:17] >> nod all the time. [25:18] >> Yeah. Yes. You You're a nod. It's really [25:20] high warmth. We love it. We love that. [25:22] Yes. Nodding is great because vertical [25:24] nods, and by the way, this is different [25:25] in certain cultures where they'll nod. [25:26] They nod um side to sideways. That's [25:28] different. Okay. So, just vertical [25:30] nodding in Western cultures is [25:31] agreement. It's Yes. In fact, research [25:33] has found that when you nod at me [25:35] slowly, I speak three to four times [25:37] longer. [25:38] >> That's cool. That's why you're a good [25:39] interviewer is because you'll not be [25:40] like, "Keep going. Keep going. Keep [25:42] going." [25:42] >> I just kind of I'm just like a [25:43] bobblehead. I'm just kind of like, [25:44] "Yeah, this is like a very slow like [25:46] I'll pause and be like, "Okay, cool." [25:48] >> Okay. Well, actually, you're right. Slow [25:50] nodding is tell me more. Fast nodding is [25:52] finish up. [25:53] >> Yeah. Okay. Okay. [25:54] >> Okay. I got it. I got it. Right. Right. [25:56] Right. Okay. So, that's the difference [25:57] there. If you want someone to wrap up in [25:58] a meeting, give them a one, two, three, [26:00] triple nod. Like, I got it. [26:02] >> If you want them to keep going, an [26:03] introvert. Uhhuh. Uhhuh. Uh-huh. Okay. [26:06] So, that's the difference. That's number [26:07] one. So, I I shared about this. I taught [26:09] it. And then a couple of my male readers [26:11] said to me, "You know, Vanessa, we think [26:13] that there is a secret non-verbal cue [26:16] between guys." Now, I don't know what [26:18] this cue is. Here's what they said. [26:19] >> If you know a guy and you're trying to [26:22] acknowledge him, guy to guy, you not up. [26:24] >> Yeah. [26:24] >> Good to see you. It's literally like an [26:25] open gesture. You're open. [26:27] >> If you don't know a guy, but you're [26:29] trying to acknowledge his presence, you [26:30] Hey, [26:32] >> good to see you. [26:32] >> Oh, wow. That's so true. [26:34] >> Is it true? [26:34] >> That's so true. Yeah. He's like, "Oh, [26:35] good to see you." Yeah. Yeah, [26:36] acknowledged. [26:37] >> Good to see you. [26:38] >> Yeah. Hey, what's up, buddy? [26:40] >> Okay. [26:40] >> Yeah, it's so true. [26:41] >> Okay, so this was so I snuck it into the [26:43] book last minute. [26:44] >> That's fascinating. I wonder is that [26:45] like biology? Is that [26:47] >> Yes. Here's why. [26:48] >> Social like, [26:49] >> okay, here's my here's my theory on [26:50] this. I as soon as I heard this, I was [26:52] like and I started looking. I started [26:53] watching men. I asked my husband. I [26:54] asked my guys. And this is why I think [26:56] it happens. When we know someone, we [26:59] expose our jugular. So, this is a very [27:01] vulnerable part of our body. And we're [27:02] saying, "I know you. I trust you. Look, [27:04] I'm opening. I'm acknowledging you. I [27:06] feel trustworthy. When you don't know [27:07] someone, but you want to show respect, [27:09] you nod down to protect your junk. I [27:11] don't know you, but I see you. I got [27:13] you. [27:13] >> I got you. I here for you. Kind of. [27:15] >> I can't see my jugular, but I'm here for [27:17] you. [27:17] >> Protect myself. I'm here for you, bro. [27:20] What's up? [27:21] >> Exactly. I think that that's where it [27:24] comes from is it's like a do I know you [27:26] or do I not know you? So, in that sense, [27:28] >> makes sense. [27:28] >> This is a high warmth cue. Hey buddy, [27:30] what's up? Right. It's high warmth. [27:31] You're showing your jugular. This is a [27:33] high confidence cue. Hello, good to see [27:35] you. I look ridiculous. I don't do that. [27:36] >> There's nothing that frustrates me more [27:38] than when things don't move with speed. [27:41] And when it comes to building a strong [27:43] daily routine for your life, the tools [27:45] that you rely on at home should make [27:47] things run more smoothly without [27:49] interruptions. And that's the thinking [27:51] behind T-Mobile's 5G home internet. And [27:55] big news, T-Mobile now has the fastest [27:58] 5G home internet according to the [28:00] experts at UCLA speed test. Setup is so [28:04] quick and simple. No technician needed, [28:06] and you're online in 15 minutes or less. [28:08] And the price comes with a 5-year price [28:11] guarantee, so you don't have to worry [28:13] about unexpected price hikes down the [28:15] road. And when I'm working from home, my [28:17] internet does a lot of the heavy [28:18] lifting. It's prepping for the next show [28:20] on the School of Greatness, uploading [28:22] files, I'm doing Zoom calls, I'm doing [28:24] meetings. All these different things are [28:27] all happening, and I need them to happen [28:29] fast. And with T-Mobile 5G home [28:31] internet, things move fast and stay [28:34] smooth. Pages load quickly, files upload [28:37] successfully, and I can stay focused [28:38] without constant interruptions. It makes [28:41] a big difference. Visit [28:42] t-mobile.com/home [28:45] internet to check availability today. [28:48] Price guarantee exclusions like taxes [28:50] and fees apply. Fastest based on UCLA [28:53] speed test intelligence data. Second [28:56] half of 2025. All rights reserved. In [29:00] this third section, we have the [29:01] legendary psychotherapist Esther Pel, [29:05] who is going to share the clear patterns [29:07] that prove your partner might be a [29:10] narcissist. [29:11] >> What's your thoughts on narcissism in [29:12] general? And can people change or evolve [29:15] out of it? [29:17] >> I can answer it clinically and and [29:19] culturally. I mean, maybe we should [29:21] start by talking about the like [29:22] Christopher Lash talked about. We do [29:24] live in a narcissistic culture, [29:26] >> selfie culture, the likes [29:28] >> in a culture of narcissism. Once you are [29:30] continuously evaluating yourself, [29:32] proving yourself, performing, [29:35] demonstrating yourself, you know, [29:37] posting about yourself, engaging in fake [29:40] news about yourself. you are in a [29:42] narcissistic culture that you know [29:46] criteria diagnosis [29:50] accompany [29:51] the culture of the day. In the 19th [29:54] century we talked about hysteria. [29:57] >> Mhm. [29:57] >> We do not talk much about hysteria today [30:00] because we realized that the majority of [30:02] these hysteric women supposedly hysteric [30:05] women were actually women who had [30:07] experienced sexual abuse. [30:08] >> Mhm. [30:09] >> They were not hysterical. They were [30:11] traumatized. [30:12] >> Yes. [30:13] >> Narcissism is the word that we come back [30:15] with on the 21st century. [30:18] Stress and anxiety and depression was [30:21] the 20th century. So every century and [30:24] every culture has its expressions [30:28] through mental [30:30] illness or mental manifestations. Okay. [30:34] Eating disorders exist in some cultures [30:36] and not in others. you you you know a a [30:39] diagnosis a personality disorder doesn't [30:42] just exist like that without a [30:44] background so that means that it's easy [30:48] to make these issues very personal but [30:51] they are also societal that said I have [30:54] sat with people who have a whole range [30:56] of narcissistic tendencies [30:58] >> to get to saying somebody is a [31:00] narcissist somebody is depressed [31:03] somebody's [31:04] >> you know I think that there are there's [31:07] more to us than just that, [31:09] >> right? [31:10] >> But you see a lot of people with [31:11] narcissistic tendencies and you see a [31:14] lot of people who not not just this [31:16] exhibiting it with manifest narcissism, [31:18] but there's a whole other form of [31:20] narcissism that is called covert [31:22] narcissism which we talk about much less [31:24] because we don't name it in those ways. [31:26] >> What is the difference? [31:28] >> That is a long conversation. It's really [31:31] a long conversation [31:32] >> in the short form. What is the [31:34] >> you know power can come from above and [31:37] power can come from underneath. [31:39] You can have power through [31:40] victimization. You can make people feel [31:43] guilty all the time. You can be passive [31:45] aggressive. You can make people [31:47] continuously feel that they are [31:48] responsible for your life that if they [31:50] don't do what you want that you may kill [31:52] yourself. There's loads of ways to make [31:55] other people submit themselves to you [31:59] >> and that would be considered [32:00] >> that is those are expressions of more [32:03] covert [32:03] >> covert. It's not like this doineering [32:08] people from the top and you can control [32:10] people from underneath. [32:11] >> Yes. [32:12] >> You know, it's a I think that there is a [32:15] a certain profile at this point of when [32:17] we say narcissist, everybody has five or [32:19] six associations that are quite similar. [32:21] And I this is really a whole other [32:24] conversation. But um what I will say is [32:27] that um yes I have sat with people who [32:30] have very little regard. People who [32:32] bring everything on to themselves. [32:34] People who see everything as a [32:36] reflection of themselves. People who are [32:39] charming. Charming when they need to [32:41] seduce you. And then once they you they [32:43] think they have you. They turn and they [32:46] have they go into the next people who [32:48] they need to charm. But those that they [32:50] have already recruited are disregarded [32:52] and discarded. So those [32:55] >> they got the most out of them already. [32:56] Yeah. [32:57] >> You know people who can lie [32:59] pathologically to you, people who have [33:00] very little empathy for what is [33:02] happening. So there is a cluster of [33:05] things but I think for me I tend to look [33:08] at behaviors and I tend to look at [33:11] interactions because I'm a relational [33:14] >> therapist and I'm a systemsoriented [33:16] therapist. And so I less spend my time [33:19] labeling a personality. [33:22] >> I that I I think it's useful on [33:25] occasion, but it is not my primary [33:28] vocabulary. [33:29] >> Yeah. [33:30] >> Um but she's very very eloquent about [33:33] it. [33:34] >> Yes. Yes. We'll have to have you back on [33:35] to do a whole twohour conversation on [33:38] that another time. There's a lot to [33:39] that. [33:40] >> It's really I I do not want to talk [33:42] about complex topics [33:44] >> in a short amount of time. [33:46] because it doesn't do them justice and I [33:48] don't like to reinforce [33:52] >> notions that have not been examined. [33:54] >> Absolutely. [33:55] >> But that are easy to grab on. [33:57] >> We'll have you back on for that. I'll do [33:58] one final card and then I think I've got [34:00] to make sure I'm respecting of the time [34:03] >> that you're going to touch on me. [34:05] >> Yep. What is that? [34:06] >> Okay. I'm my own worst enemy when [34:11] It's interesting. I [34:13] >> You know what? You want to give me a [34:14] different one? [34:15] >> Yes. [34:15] >> Okay. [34:16] >> I want to give you this. [34:17] >> Okay. [34:17] >> Because because of what happened just a [34:19] few minutes before. [34:20] >> Last time I cried was I mean yesterday, [34:24] you know, in terms of my father just [34:27] died two months ago. And so I've been [34:28] crying a lot, you know, every couple of [34:31] days. hear a song that really connects [34:34] me to a memory to him and to the whole [34:39] it was a sad experience because he got [34:43] into a car accident 17 years ago had a [34:46] severe brain trauma was in a coma for 3 [34:49] months then he woke up in a different [34:51] country in New Zealand at the time I was [34:53] in college then he came back and it was [34:57] like my dad was physically here but [34:58] emotionally mentally and spiritually not [35:01] Ambiguous loss. [35:02] >> Yes, [35:03] >> this is it. [35:04] >> I never was able to fully grieve. [35:06] >> That's ambiguous loss. [35:07] >> My father, he was physically here, but [35:09] the [35:10] >> same person [35:11] >> and every interaction I had with him [35:15] was reminding me of the loss was I'm [35:19] grateful he's here and it's great to [35:21] experience some time with him. [35:23] >> But every time I go and say hello, he [35:25] says, [35:27] "Lewis, right? [35:29] Didn't you didn't you used to play [35:31] where' you what sport did you play [35:32] growing up? Where did you go to school [35:34] again? So he could have a conversation [35:36] with you and speak conversationally. [35:40] But it was the same story over and over [35:42] again of needing to remind my father [35:44] from [35:44] >> 17 years [35:45] >> for 17 years of the memory loss that he [35:47] had. [35:48] >> Show him photos of him with me taking [35:50] photos of me playing sports. The second [35:52] half of my life with him was beautiful. [35:54] He showed up. He transformed. He [35:57] overcame a lot of the the anger and [35:59] resentment he had. Um, and I had a two [36:02] different lives with him. When I was 13 [36:05] before I had a some love, some scary [36:09] with him. Then after 13, it was like [36:11] this incredible friendship. So, it's [36:13] like I lost my dad, [36:16] >> but he was physically here. And every [36:17] year there was some type of health [36:20] scare. He had a couple strokes, a heart [36:22] attack. He had multiple surgeries from [36:24] the the accident. just the complications [36:26] from the accident. [36:29] And so every year I didn't know if he [36:30] was going to survive or not. And I it [36:33] was always when is it going to happen [36:34] this year? Okay, he's in the hospital [36:36] now. Is he going to make it? Do I need [36:37] to be there in this 17-year cycle of [36:42] learning to accept something and doing [36:45] my best to be okay with it and and [36:47] accepting and loving where it's at, you [36:50] know? So for me it was 17 years of of I [36:53] want to say numbing but it was [36:55] acceptance and just like managing it the [36:57] best I could. And then when he passed in [37:00] February a couple months ago it was [37:03] man just full circle kind of like going [37:05] back 17 years ago and reliving that and [37:08] then reliving my whole childhood and [37:11] allowing myself to be uh to have a full [37:14] range of emotions. And I think it's [37:17] beautiful because [37:18] >> do you feel like this time actually you [37:20] can fully grieve? [37:21] >> I feel like I can [37:22] >> because it's see this is ambiguous loss [37:24] what you just described. Can't grieve, [37:26] can't mourn because he's there but he's [37:28] not there. [37:29] >> Yeah. And it was [37:30] >> this one gives it [37:32] >> now you can experience the full range. [37:34] >> Absolutely. I didn't feel like I could. [37:35] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [37:36] >> And and I feel like I have a a more [37:38] spiritual connection to him now than in [37:40] the last 17 years. You know, every night [37:42] I'm connecting with him in my own way [37:45] and my little meditation room and you [37:48] know, throughout every the days there [37:50] are things that come up where I I feel [37:52] the the spiritual presence and it's it's [37:54] a beautiful [37:56] sad, it's beautiful, it's emotional, [37:58] it's it's a wide range of emotions and [38:00] you know, there's a lot of sadness I [38:01] have because I wish it wasn't that way. [38:03] But I also [38:05] >> relief. I have some relief and I'm also [38:09] doing doing my best to create meaning [38:11] from the whole thing so that it's not [38:14] just this thing I'm frustrated with [38:15] constantly but like you know what I [38:17] probably wouldn't be doing this without [38:19] that pain and sadness and loss. I [38:22] wouldn't be a curious hungry I wouldn't [38:24] have been as resourceful if I had him [38:26] there. So [38:29] yeah, I mean I've been crying a lot. [38:31] Been crying a lot and um it's been [38:34] beautiful to have [38:36] uh a safe environment in my relationship [38:39] with someone who allows that because I [38:42] think that's hard for some people to [38:44] allow that especially for men to be able [38:45] to express their full range of emotions [38:48] and for that their partner to feel safe [38:50] with that too. So I feel very grateful. [38:53] Um but absolutely it's [38:55] >> absolutely [38:56] >> it's not it's not hasn't been fun but [38:58] it's also been [39:00] >> uh allowing me to have like peace with [39:02] >> an amazing thing that if you ask people [39:04] when's the last time you laughed [39:07] nobody has to justify laughing [39:10] >> but crying [39:11] >> but crying people have to justify it [39:14] they have to [39:15] >> interesting you asked that [39:16] >> I mean it is the absolute natural [39:19] emotion to feel in sadness in grief in [39:21] loss Whatever. Man, woman, they, them, [39:25] whoever. [39:26] >> I had a woman on two days ago who who [39:30] hasn't cried in years. And I had a man [39:32] on yesterday who hasn't cried in, I [39:34] think, 10 or 12 years. [39:37] >> And it's interesting. It's like there's [39:39] something there, I think, to be able to [39:40] have the full range. Not saying you need [39:42] to cry all day long or something, but of [39:44] allowing yourselves to feel. But, um, [39:47] that's probably for a whole another [39:48] conversation. So, [39:49] >> I mean, I would say that it's hard for [39:51] people [39:52] to really fully say yes if you can't [39:55] fully say no. [39:57] >> And it is hard for people to fully laugh [40:00] if you can't also cry. [40:03] >> It's it if something is funny, you [40:05] automatically do this. If something is [40:08] sad, the fact that you stay like that [40:11] affectless or that you repress it or [40:14] that you hold it in or that you don't [40:16] even notice it or that the thing is [40:18] coming down your face and you don't even [40:19] realize. I've had people tear in my [40:22] office while they say, "I never cry." [40:25] >> What does that What does that mean when [40:28] someone is isn't able to fully laugh or [40:30] fully cry? [40:31] >> What would it be like if a person comes [40:33] into this world and doesn't scream? I [40:35] mean, if a baby doesn't scream when they [40:37] come out, you think they're death at [40:38] birth? [40:40] >> What is it like when people make love [40:41] and make no noise? When it's impossible. [40:44] I mean, you're a sports person. You know [40:46] that if you lift something, you make [40:47] noise. You grunt here. You know, the [40:50] voice is, you know, it's just what does [40:52] it mean when this whole thing is closed [40:54] off. [40:55] >> There's something inside that's missing [40:57] or dead or trapped [40:58] >> or trapped [40:59] >> or was shoved down or can't come out or [41:03] but for sure it is a blockage. [41:05] >> Next, we have the family therapist [41:07] expert Jerry Wise who shares a different [41:10] type of dynamic because sometimes the [41:13] narcissism isn't in your partner, it's [41:16] in your history. It's the people who [41:18] raised you. And he's going to explain [41:20] how to heal that childhood trauma. Right [41:23] now, [41:24] >> people will always ask me, "Am I a [41:26] narcissist?" [41:28] And I'll go, "Do you ever feel guilty?" [41:31] >> Oh, yeah. All the time. Then you're not. [41:35] >> You're just dysfunctional. [41:36] >> You're just dysfunctional. No. Right. A [41:38] narcissist is not going to feel that [41:41] guilt. They don't feel What have they [41:43] done wrong? They're always right. So [41:47] that why would I feel guilt about [41:49] anything or shame? So if if you felt [41:54] that you're probably less likely to be a [41:56] narcissist [41:57] >> if you but a parent can be a [41:59] narcissistic parent and they don't they [42:02] can abuse you, they can criticize you. [42:04] They can but they'll never go oh that my [42:07] bad. [42:08] >> They won't apologize do that. Why would [42:10] they apologize? [42:12] >> You made them do it. you made them do it [42:15] or they uh did it for your good. [42:20] >> So why would I ever need to say I'm [42:23] sorry? There's no need to say I'm sorry. [42:26] >> What's the worst thing a parent could do [42:28] then to their kids over and over again [42:31] that will almost surely make them [42:34] dysfunctional as an adult? Is it never [42:36] apologizing to them when you know they [42:39] >> that that's too symptomatic? That's too [42:43] superficial. [42:44] >> Uhhuh. [42:45] >> The thing that's going to make them more [42:48] dysfunctional as an adult [42:51] is to not break their own cycle from [42:55] their own past, [42:57] bringing that cycle to their current [43:00] nuclear family [43:03] and not knowing it. So bringing the [43:06] generational trauma onward [43:08] >> and the generational programming that [43:10] and the generational emotional wifi [43:14] >> that's been going on and they just bring [43:16] that right into here. That's going to [43:18] mess them up more than ever. Now does [43:21] abuse and narcissistic meanness and do [43:25] all those things affect the kid? Of [43:26] course it does. [43:27] >> Screaming and all this stuff. Yeah, [43:29] >> exactly. Of course it's going to. But [43:31] it's not the screaming that's the [43:34] underlying problem [43:35] >> that's a symptom of [43:36] >> that's a symptom of how the family has [43:38] been dysfunctional and toxic and and it [43:42] can come out in different ways. [43:44] Narcissism, alcoholism, abuse, [43:47] workcoholism, sex addiction. It can come [43:50] out in gambling and all kinds of [43:52] symptomatic ways. But underneath all of [43:55] that is an enshment [43:59] to a family [44:02] whose trance has never been broken. [44:04] >> Wow. The origin family. [44:06] >> The origin family. It's never been [44:09] broken. And now you're just living it [44:11] out. Only John's living it out that way. [44:13] Mary's living it out that way. But it [44:16] that's the underlying important dynamic. [44:19] And if we don't break the trance of the [44:21] family, the origin family of ours, if we [44:24] don't break that trance, then we're just [44:26] going to relive that pattern in our [44:28] adult relationships as well [44:29] >> in some way. And it may not even look [44:32] like the way mom and dad did it, but the [44:35] pattern's still there. So people will [44:37] go, "Well, I'm not like my parents." Oh, [44:40] oh, hold on just a second. Let me ask [44:42] you, but what you're doing is the same [44:45] theme and it has origins in your family [44:48] of origin. You may have chosen the [44:50] opposite, but o [44:54] 180 degrees from unhealthy is unhealthy. [44:59] So people will go, "Oh, well, I'm all [45:01] the way over here. Oh, now you're just a [45:03] class B unhealthy rather than a class A [45:06] unhealthy person. And you feel superior [45:09] over them because you're over here, [45:11] >> right? [45:11] >> You haven't broken the cycle. You're [45:13] living the pendulum life. [45:15] >> Yeah. I'm not screaming at my partner. [45:17] >> I'm not screaming at my partner like [45:19] they did, [45:19] >> but I'm controlling. [45:20] >> But I'm being controlling. And I still [45:22] may be self-absorbed or judgmental or [45:26] any number of other kinds of things. [45:28] >> Interesting. Here's the real question [45:31] then. [45:32] If we start to think about, oh, maybe my [45:35] parents had some narcissistic tendencies [45:38] and I'm starting to think about it and [45:40] I'm starting to evaluate my childhood [45:42] and realize, oh, I thought this was just [45:43] normal because this is the only thing I [45:45] knew. [45:46] >> How many families did we grow up in? [45:47] >> Yeah. Right. And it wasn't as bad as [45:49] that family, so I got to be grateful for [45:51] this. [45:51] >> Yeah. And we should [45:52] >> and my parents were loving at times and [45:56] they gave us and they were doing the [45:57] best they could. So that I can't think [45:59] of them as narcissistic, but we start to [46:00] internalize that. What are the warning [46:02] signs then that show up in adult [46:05] children of narcissistic parents? [46:07] >> Let's then take a look at that. [46:12] Mom and dad or whoever was narcissistic, [46:15] hypercritical and judgmental. [46:19] Now I then grow up and say, "I'm not [46:22] going to be like that." [46:24] But what am I to myself? [46:27] Hyperritical and judgmental. So, an [46:31] adult child of a narcissistic family [46:33] often will have [46:36] unbounded [46:38] guilt, shame, criticalness, [46:40] hyperriticalness, [46:42] uh very hard on themselves. So, they [46:44] just take the voice from here and just [46:47] live it inside themselves. [46:49] >> Really, [46:50] >> everything is that way. Uh people go, [46:53] "Oh, well, they they screamed all the [46:55] time." So many times I've said, "So how [46:58] many times have you internally screamed [47:00] at yourself?" [47:02] I don't scream at other people. I didn't [47:04] say other people. I said, "You, [47:07] oh well, yeah, I can be pretty nasty to [47:10] me. You know, you stupid." [47:14] And um I said, "You're just reliving [47:17] this only in a different way." Uh and so [47:21] it's all embryionic in the family. So [47:25] everything is happening out here the [47:28] problem and that's what I think that's [47:31] why I use the term the problem is the [47:33] solution is not near the problem also [47:38] the problem may not be near the symptom [47:43] here I am criticizing myself and and [47:47] cutting myself down internally and [47:49] hating myself and narcissists adult [47:52] children narcissists can definitely hate [47:54] themselves because they've been judged [47:56] and criticized and, you know, [47:59] emotionally hurt so many different ways, [48:02] shamed. And so this is what they're [48:04] doing out here. And they're now doing [48:06] this as adults to themselves internally [48:09] and going, "Well, what's the solution?" [48:13] And many will go, "Don't look at any of [48:15] that. Let's just try to [48:18] be nicer to yourself." which is not bad [48:22] advice, but it's superficial advice and [48:26] it may not hold. And then you'll try it [48:29] and then give it up. And you'll try it [48:31] and give it up versus wait a minute. [48:34] Let's get mom and dad out of you. [48:36] >> Wow. [48:37] >> That's what we want to do because we And [48:40] do you recognize [48:42] that's not you? [48:45] When you are criticizing yourself that [48:47] way, you're going to be under the [48:50] hypnosis and the trance that this is me [48:53] doing it to me. And I'm and I go, "Let [48:56] me give you some good news. It's not you [48:58] doing it to you. It's your family still [49:01] doing it to you through you." [49:04] >> Wow. [49:05] >> There's a difference. And that's a huge [49:07] difference. And so as adult children, [49:12] what should we be thinking about if we [49:14] felt like we had a dysfunctional [49:16] childhood? Should we be thinking about [49:18] how do I get my myself to be [49:20] self-differentiated [49:22] from my parents and my family? How do I [49:25] block my family completely? How do I [49:28] heal the past? Like what should we be [49:30] thinking about as we come into awareness [49:32] as adult children of dysfunctional [49:34] childhoods or narcissistic parents? And [49:37] I think it's a great question. But your [49:40] question also has within it a certain [49:42] paradigm as all questions do. Every [49:46] question has the answer in it. [49:49] >> Every question that someone asks, the [49:51] answer is in their question. And so you [49:54] are asking about so do I separate myself [49:57] from my family? Do I you know and and [50:00] certainly if someone if families are [50:02] abusive and toxic and have no interest [50:05] in changing? No. Well, then we have to [50:07] look at some no contact or, you know, we [50:10] may need to go that far. But self- [50:13] differentiation, [50:15] what I tend to think when someone has a [50:17] family that's narcissistic, [50:20] does the person that I'm working with or [50:22] talking to or the the adult child of the [50:25] narcissist need greater [50:27] self-differentiation, [50:29] which is a an emotional state and a [50:33] maturity state, or do they need to [50:36] physically separate? [50:38] >> In this next section, we have Annie [50:40] Sarnlad. She is the master of micro [50:43] expressions. She'll show you the tiny [50:46] splitsecond signs that reveal a [50:48] narcissist's true intentions. How can [50:52] you know if someone has narcissistic [50:54] tendencies if you're going on a date or [50:57] if you've been in a relationship with [50:58] them for a long time? [50:59] >> Because they don't show me any kindness. [51:00] >> They don't show kindness. [51:02] >> They don't care when I get hurt. [51:04] Regardless of how I get hurt or [51:06] regardless of how somebody else gets [51:07] hurt, they don't show that [51:09] >> really. They don't. No, [51:12] >> they care more about themselves or they [51:14] just they just don't understand. [51:15] >> But I know narcissists that will [51:16] describe something that they've been [51:18] through that's painful and their chin [51:20] will be working overtime. [51:21] >> But for for someone else, they probably [51:23] won't have that. [51:24] >> No, cuz they don't care. [51:26] >> But how are they so good, I guess, at [51:29] captivating you to love them? [51:32] >> One, they they tend to over the Well, [51:34] the narcissists in my life tend to [51:35] overdo the eye contact. [51:37] >> So, they're very present and connected. [51:39] >> Yes. they they that the gaze is long. [51:42] Um, and then the other thing is that [51:44] they've learned almost mathematically [51:47] which phrases, which behaviors work. [51:51] >> So, I had somebody in my life um I won't [51:54] mention who it is, but it's uh it's a [51:56] family member of mine that I just lost [51:59] it on him. Um, we were living in Hong [52:01] Kong and he was yelling at a taxi driver [52:06] and we got out of the car and you the [52:08] taxi driver had made a wrong turn, you [52:10] know, even though the person that I was [52:12] with had said, you know, turn to the [52:14] right the made a mistake [52:16] >> and he just lost it on this taxi driver [52:18] and I um I was really angry afterwards. [52:22] I said, "Do you understand that this is [52:24] somebody who's trying to support his [52:25] family, working really long hours? Like, [52:27] this is, you know, a decent human making [52:29] a an honorable living, working hard, and [52:32] probably has a lot of people depending [52:34] on them. And you don't get to yell at [52:38] somebody for making a mistake. We all [52:40] make mistakes." Next night, we were out [52:43] and this person was trying to pick up [52:44] girls, puffed out his chest and said, [52:48] "I'm the kind of guy who's nice to taxi [52:50] drivers." No. [52:53] >> Wow. The next day, jeez. [52:56] >> I was like, this is the weirdest [52:59] surreal experience. But it was it it [53:02] really clicked for me this narcissistic [53:05] behavior. And I knew that this was a [53:06] narcissist. This idea of, oh, there's a [53:11] puzzle piece and a tool that I can use [53:13] to impress other people. And it was just [53:16] so [53:18] artificial and strange. But people find [53:21] a way to get their needs met. We we [53:25] humans tend to be really good at that. [53:27] And if something works for us, well, we [53:28] repeat that. We do more of that. [53:32] >> Yeah. We kind of store that in our [53:33] brain. This worked before, so let me [53:35] keep doing this thing. [53:36] >> That whole love bombing and the whole [53:38] like I will tell you and the narcissists [53:40] that have ever tried to date me, I call [53:43] them parrots. um they they try to figure [53:46] out what what is your thing. So I had a [53:49] guy not that long ago. I've actually [53:51] written about that that was telling me, [53:53] you know, I've been obsessed with micro [53:54] expressions for years because if you [53:56] can't really connect with people, I [53:57] mean, he'd seen me speak a couple of [53:59] times and he was just pulling all this [54:02] stuff and I was lonely and newly [54:04] divorced and I almost fell for it, you [54:07] know, even with my stuff because he was [54:09] so good at the [54:11] >> speaking to your heart and to like your [54:13] things. And he wasn't doing it face to [54:15] face. He was doing it via text. And I [54:17] kept saying, "Well, let's just jump on a [54:19] phone call." No, no, no. Didn't want to [54:21] even jump on the phone because he knows [54:22] that I can do voice stuff. [54:24] >> Wow. [54:26] >> No FaceTime. Yeah. FaceTime. [54:28] >> Didn't want to do the FaceTime. Yeah. [54:29] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [54:30] >> So, can you personally tell the [54:33] difference between someone who's maybe a [54:37] psychopath, a narcissist, and a genius? [54:41] Can you tell the difference based on and [54:43] and are there tendencies of all three? I [54:45] guess [54:49] >> that's a really good question. Um, [54:53] you can be a genius and also be kind, [54:56] >> right? That doesn't nec you can be a [54:58] narcissist and a genius for sure. [55:01] >> Um, but the genius isn't necessarily [55:05] overlapping the other ones. The there [55:07] are a couple pieces that I look for. [55:10] We look for what my kids call crazy [55:11] eyes. So remember I talked about we pull [55:14] our upper eyelids way back, you know, we [55:16] do this, right? So that's a piece of [55:18] fear. So if you um if I walk into a room [55:22] and I see somebody, you know, maybe [55:24] standing with a gun behind you or like [55:26] pulling out a you my upper eyelids are [55:28] going to going to pull way back. That [55:32] fits, right? If I'm in a scary [55:35] situation, something scares me or [55:36] somebody jumps out or there's a loud [55:37] noise, I'm going to pull my upper [55:39] eyelids back and and that matches. Yeah. [55:42] Okay. But that matches, but we don't [55:43] ever in fear. The only time we will pull [55:45] our upper eyelids back and hold them is [55:47] roller coaster haunted house, you know, [55:50] terror, [55:51] >> loud noise. Yeah. [55:52] >> We never hold our upper eyelids pulled [55:54] way back except when we're nuts. [55:57] >> When you're a social a psychopath, you [55:59] just like that all the time. [56:01] >> Hitler. [56:03] >> Really? I'm going to get in so much [56:04] trouble for this. Elizabeth Holmes. [56:06] >> Oh, wow. [56:08] >> Yeah. See, your face immediately goes to [56:10] like there's a lot of people in the [56:12] public eye. The school shooters, if you [56:14] if you look at the pictures of them, [56:16] they have their eyes like that. They [56:17] always like pull they're showing their [56:19] scara and there's something about mental [56:21] instability and volatility and I'm not [56:25] safe that and I don't know what it is. [56:28] And I've done a lot of research, just my [56:30] own private research on that, but but I [56:32] almost always find that somebody who's [56:34] committed a heinous crime and a really [56:37] violent crime, they're all almost always [56:40] like I don't know 20 30% of their [56:42] pictures that you can find up on the [56:43] blind where they're where they're [56:44] holding. [56:46] >> That's interesting. [56:47] >> Okay, so watch the facial expression of [56:48] fear, the full facial expression of fear [56:50] and it like makes me shiver. Right. [56:52] Watch when I take the bottom half of my [56:54] face and turn it into joy or arousal or [56:58] cheerfulness. [57:00] >> That is weird. [57:01] >> It's super creepy and it like sends all [57:03] these itchy signals to my brain, but [57:06] it's it's out of context. It doesn't [57:08] match. And your whole body, your whole [57:11] nervous system knows that when you see [57:12] it. When I give you the vocabulary to [57:16] pull this and dissect it, you're going, [57:17] "Oh my god, I just talked about this [57:19] thing and that person showed crazy [57:20] eyes." is like almost like they were [57:23] there's horror and arousal at the same. [57:24] There should not. That's the Joker's [57:26] face from Batman. The arousal in the [57:28] horror. The joy in the horror. That's [57:30] terrible. [57:31] >> The joy in the horror, [57:33] >> right? [57:33] >> That's something to watch. [57:34] >> That is something to watch out for. [57:36] >> Now, are people, you know, I guess are [57:39] psychopaths. Are they more like that all [57:40] the time or is that only sometimes? [57:43] >> They seem to show it a lot. [57:44] >> Right. Right. And I and the I don't [57:46] really it's almost like I'm not all the [57:48] way to the finish line with that [57:50] research. [57:51] >> I just know [57:52] >> something seems inauthentic though. [57:54] >> Something's inauthentic. And you can [57:55] have somebody who is not a bad person [57:58] but who is going through a period of [58:01] severe trauma and mental instability [58:03] also have that sort of constant deer in [58:05] the headlight look. So you have to be [58:07] careful. All of these facial expressions [58:09] you have to put them in context. [58:10] >> You need context. And it's not a like [58:12] you see this in somebody, they're [58:14] automatically a bad or a dangerous [58:15] person, but they are more likely in my [58:19] experience to [58:22] be violent against others or themselves. [58:24] You sometimes see that facial expression [58:26] before somebody takes their own life. [58:28] >> Yeah. [58:28] >> Wow. [58:30] >> So, there's something um there's some, [58:32] you know, serious emotional health issue [58:36] >> with a with a psychopath essentially. [58:38] Yeah. [58:38] >> Yeah. And Yeah. [58:39] >> And finally, my friend Dr. John Deloney. [58:42] This is a big one. He's going to help [58:43] you look in the mirror. He'll show you [58:46] how to make sure you don't fall into [58:49] your own narcissistic tendencies that [58:51] all of us might have from time to time. [58:54] There seems to be a trend of narcissism, [58:57] self-interest, [58:59] and my feelings and my beliefs are the [59:02] things that matter most. So, you need to [59:04] change, this system need to change, [59:06] everything needs to change to fit my [59:08] feelings and protect my feelings. [59:10] Why do you think that is happening more? [59:12] So, [59:13] >> we don't have we we've clipped the [59:14] strings. Esther talks eloquently about [59:16] this. We've clipped all of the the [59:19] common strings that bind us together [59:21] with a common story [59:23] for however long you think the ear how [59:27] however long you think the earth has [59:28] been around. [59:30] our relationship to our gods told us [59:33] what we're going to wear, what your role [59:34] is, what whose job is what job, what [59:38] what our values are, what you do and [59:39] don't do. There's been tons of [59:40] oppression. I'm not saying it's all [59:41] great. I'm just saying that's the way it [59:42] worked. And then we cut all the strings. [59:45] None of that's real, guys. If it can't [59:47] be randomized control, double blind [59:50] studied, it's not real. It doesn't [59:52] exist. And so as beings created to [59:56] worship, whether you're an atheist or [59:58] not, as beings created to be in service [60:01] of something, if there's nothing to be [60:03] in service of other than the self, [60:05] >> then you are the the supreme ruler of [60:08] your world. You're the universe. You're [60:10] Pharaoh. You will bow before me. [60:13] >> And you have a whole generation of [60:15] people saying, "No, you bow before me. [60:16] No, no, you bow before me." Then you get [60:18] chaos, which is what we have. Instead of [60:20] saying, "What if we all just went to the [60:22] moon? Can we figure that out? All right, [60:23] let's do that. Let's go to the moon. [60:25] >> And what if we said, "How can I love you [60:28] today?" instead of, "This is just how [60:31] I'm wired. I give answers." [60:34] >> One of those ways you're going to end up [60:35] sleeping outside by yourself. One of [60:37] those ways creates warmth in your home, [60:40] >> right? And so, what do you want? Like, [60:41] what do you want this thing to feel [60:42] like? What are you doing? Right? And I [60:44] often ask this question. Does that feel [60:47] good? like like great quippy response [60:50] like great grenade sarcasm you know [60:53] cynicism good job that feel good yeah [60:57] did it is that what you're going for [60:59] today you feel powerful for a minute [61:00] like what what are you what are we doing [61:03] >> or do you want to be connected and you [61:04] want to be whole [61:04] >> yes [61:05] >> you get to pick man [61:06] >> connection wholeness peace I I believe [61:10] comes from service and I I believe first [61:13] comes from service to [61:15] self in creating wholeness [61:17] not neglecting self and being empty all [61:20] the time and just only serving others [61:22] and and you know deflecting all of your [61:25] needs to feeling peaceful and whole and [61:28] healthy, [61:29] >> right? [61:29] >> But then in that journey, giving to [61:32] others, helping others, being of [61:34] service, contributing to something [61:35] greater than self, a mission, a vision, [61:37] a family, a community, a goal, you know, [61:39] going to the moon, whatever it is, [61:41] believing in something and others and [61:44] giving to them. [61:45] >> Yeah. And it's something for me that has [61:48] really flipped in the last 10 years. 10 [61:50] years ago, prior to 10 years ago, I was [61:53] more about how do I look good? How do I [61:55] win? How do I succeed? How do I, you [61:57] know, be right? [61:58] >> Yeah. [61:59] >> As much as possible. And it was very [62:00] unconscious. It wasn't like [62:02] >> I was conscious of it. It was just your [62:04] body playing defense. And it was a [62:06] survival mechanism, right? It was like I [62:08] need to win. I need to be right. I need [62:10] to make more. I need to look good. I [62:12] need to have this image and ego, you [62:15] know, shape the way I want it. Um, and I [62:18] just realized that wasn't a happy life [62:20] for me. Maybe maybe some moments that [62:23] seemed happy, but it wasn't really [62:24] fulfilling until I said, [62:27] >> "It's got to be collaboration over [62:28] competition." [62:30] >> You know, I can still compete in certain [62:32] ways, but it can't be for someone to be [62:34] less than. [62:35] >> Yeah. [62:36] >> It needs to be for me to compete to get [62:37] better. [62:38] >> Yeah. [62:38] >> And serve better. [62:40] >> Yeah. Um, but collaboration over [62:42] competition, service over self, [62:46] that is what's brought me a lot more [62:47] fulfillment. It doesn't mean it's always [62:49] easy. There's challenges, but it's [62:51] brought me much more meaning and [62:53] fulfillment. [62:55] >> What do you think is the biggest cause [62:56] of pain in relationships today? [63:00] Me over us. [63:01] >> Really? [63:02] >> Yeah. Me over us. How I feel right now [63:04] or how you made me feel. not my body [63:08] responded when you did this. I need to [63:10] deal with that or I've got some hard [63:12] choices to make. You did it. You did it. [63:14] It's me over us. I think um and this [63:17] this would go back to the question you [63:18] asked earlier. Um it was a watershed [63:21] moment when I heard Estelle Pearl talk [63:23] about um the 9/11 towers um analogy. She [63:28] was talking to a couple who had [63:30] experienced infidelity and she said one [63:33] of the greatest challenges couples [63:34] experience is they want to I just want [63:37] to get back to the way things were. [63:39] >> And she likened it to you couldn't go on [63:42] September 12th and sweep up all that [63:44] dust and glass and steel and rebuild [63:46] those towers with that stuff. They fell. [63:48] >> Wow. [63:48] >> You have two choices. You can walk away [63:51] and let nature take it back over and it [63:53] will or you can hire some experts. You [63:55] can excavate that. You can design, [63:57] build, grieve, come together and build [64:00] something beautiful, a nod to the past, [64:04] but something going this way that's [64:06] hopefully stronger. Right? Those are [64:08] your two choices. But you, what you had [64:10] is over. And so I've taken that into my [64:13] own home. My wife and I right now, we've [64:16] never been parents of an eighth grader [64:18] and a second grader. This is a new [64:20] marriage. And so we're going to build [64:21] something new. It'll have a lot of the [64:23] features of the old one, but this is new [64:26] because eighth graders stay out later [64:27] than second graders, right? We're used [64:29] to going to bed at 9:00. We ain't doing [64:32] that anymore cuz I got to pick him up, [64:33] right? So, we have a new marriage. And [64:35] if you keep saying, "I just want to get [64:36] back to the way it was. I just want to [64:37] get back." Um, you end up dragging each [64:40] other back. And so, if we put We said I [64:43] do, then us becomes number one. [64:48] >> Wow. And that's a that's not a popular [64:50] thing, but I know I got to exercise. I [64:52] got to eat right. I got to get some [64:54] sleep so that I can show up for us, [64:55] right? So, it sounds self- serving, but [64:57] it's not. I got to do these things so I [64:58] can be whole so I can show up for what [65:00] we're building new. [65:02] >> On your on your show, uh, the Dr. John [65:05] Deloney Show, you have a lot of call-in [65:08] aspects as well where people are calling [65:10] you. Yeah. [65:11] >> You're you're coaching, they're telling [65:12] you their challenges. You've been doing [65:14] this for the last few years now. Um, [65:17] what is the the big reasons for struggle [65:20] in relationships or causes of divorce [65:23] that you're seeing lately? I know kind [65:25] of historically what that is. Is it more [65:27] financial burden? Is it more um is there [65:31] infidelity or people wanting more to [65:33] like sneak around? Is it a lack of [65:36] intimacy? Is it family dynamics of the [65:40] other families? What is the main cause [65:42] of friction in relationships or [65:45] marriages today? [65:47] >> I think if I'm looking at symptoms, it's [65:48] going to be money and infidelity. [65:50] Really, [65:50] >> some scale of infidelity. Yeah. Some [65:53] version of [65:54] >> And people are calling in and telling [65:56] you about this stuff. [65:57] >> Wild stuff. Yeah. Um underneath it, I [66:00] think it's a broader picture. Terry Real [66:02] talks about this beautifully. Um the [66:04] world changed and [66:08] men um just want things to go back to [66:10] the way they were and women want men to [66:13] do new things without new a new set of [66:16] tool. [66:17] >> I hope this master class didn't just [66:19] give you information. I hope it gave you [66:22] a sense of clarity and a sense of peace [66:24] because understanding these narcissistic [66:26] patterns is a huge first step. But the [66:30] real goal is not just about identifying [66:32] the toxic people. It's about reclaiming [66:35] your own power, your own self-rust, your [66:38] own worth. Healing from the past is the [66:41] only way to rebuild a great future. [66:44] Because you can't run a worldclass race [66:47] if you're still carrying the weight of [66:49] someone else's expectations. You can't [66:52] experience true intimacy if you're still [66:54] living in a state of hyper vigilance. [66:57] And you deserve a life where you feel [66:59] safe in your own skin, in your own heart [67:02] and body. You deserve the relationships [67:06] that fuel you, not drain you. Your [67:10] healing is the greatest gift that you [67:12] can give yourself and to the world. Your [67:15] past only has as much power as you give [67:18] it. So today, we are here to take that [67:21] power back. Today, you choose a higher [67:24] standard for your life. And if this was [67:26] something that supported you today, [67:28] please comment below what your biggest [67:30] moment was from all of these great [67:33] experts. Share it in the comment below [67:35] and let me know. Go ahead and like this [67:37] video, share with a friend, and I'd love [67:39] to know what is the one boundary that [67:40] you're going to set starting right now [67:43] in your life to ensure this doesn't [67:45] happen in the future. I read a lot of [67:47] these comments and they inspire me. [67:49] Thank you so much for being here. Thank [67:51] you for constantly choosing your own [67:52] personal growth. And as always, I want [67:54] to remind you that you are loved, you [67:56] are worthy, and you matter. If you want [67:59] to stop being in relationships that you [68:01] feel like you're failing in and they [68:03] aren't making you happy, then you need [68:05] to stop repeating the same patterns that [68:07] you've always repeated. And you need to [68:09] learn how to become the best partner for [68:12] someone and also learn how to attract [68:14] the right type of partner.  [[3. Resources/Readwise/Full Document Contents/Articles/Narcissist Experts REVEAL the Signs You Must Never Ignore|Full Document Contents]] ## Document Notes --- tags: #narcissism #psychology #relationships #abuse-recovery #mental-health #toxic-relationships #therapy #childhood-trauma author: Lewis Howes source: YouTube reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sjyBM0z36A date created: 2024-12-19 10:30 --- # 🏷️ Title: Narcissist Experts REVEAL The Signs You Must Never Ignore ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Learn the six types of narcissists — grandiose, vulnerable, malignant, communal, self-righteous, neglectful #narcissism - [H2] Watch for danger zone cues — lip pursing, distancing, high blink rate #body-language - [H3] Break generational trauma patterns — recognize family trance cycles #childhood-trauma ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [[#📝 Summary]] - [[#📖 Main Content]] - [[#🗒️ Notes]] - [[#📚 References]] - [[#🗣️ Paraphrase]] - [[#📰 Newsletter]] - [[#✅ Action Items]] - [[#🧪 Hypotheses]] - [[#📊 Methodology]] - [[#❓ Questions]] - [[#🔮 Future Research]] - [[#💡 Implications]] - [[#🧠 Learning Styles Assessment]] - [[#📊 Accessibility Assessment]] - [[#🌍 DEIB Assessment]] - [[#✅ Logical Validity]] - [[#🛡️ DARVO Analysis]] - [[#🎯 Conclusion]] ### 🔗 References - [Dr. Ramani Durvasula - Narcissism Expert](https://doctor-ramani.com) - [Vanessa Van Edwards - Behavior Expert](https://www.scienceofpeople.com) ## 📝 Summary - Master class featuring three experts on identifying and healing from narcissistic relationships - Dr. Ramani breaks down six types of narcissists: grandiose, vulnerable, malignant, communal, self-righteous, and neglectful - Vanessa Van Edwards reveals body language "danger zone" cues that expose manipulation - Esther Perel discusses cultural narcissism and covert control patterns - Jerry Wise explains how childhood narcissistic abuse creates dysfunctional adult patterns - Key takeaway: Recognition and boundary-setting are essential for breaking toxic cycles ## 📖 Main Content This comprehensive discussion reveals that narcissism manifests in multiple forms beyond the stereotypical arrogant personality. The vulnerable narcissist presents as chronically victimized and passive-aggressive, while the malignant narcissist combines coercion with sadistic tendencies. Communal narcissists gain validation through appearing altruistic while being abusive privately. Self-righteous narcissists display rigid moralistic judgment, and neglectful narcissists treat people as objects to be ignored until needed. Body language experts identify specific "danger zone" cues that reveal deception and manipulation, including lip pursing (withholding gesture), sudden distancing behavior, and elevated blink rates during lies. These physiological responses are difficult to control and often expose inauthentic behavior. The cultural context is crucial - we live in a "narcissistic culture" of constant self-promotion and validation-seeking. Covert narcissism operates through victimization and passive control rather than overt dominance. Breaking generational trauma patterns requires recognizing inherited family dynamics and creating conscious boundaries. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/9sjyBM0z36A?t=0) — [H1] Introduction to narcissist identification master class - Key idea: Many people don't realize they're dealing with narcissists because the behavior can look like care or protection - Evidence: "Narcissistic dynamics don't always look like what we expect... Sometimes they look like care. Sometimes they look like protection" #### ⏱️ [02:30](https://youtu.be/9sjyBM0z36A?t=150) — [H1] Grandiose narcissist - the traditional type - Key idea: This is the stereotypical arrogant, charismatic narcissist who actually achieves their grandiose claims - Evidence: "Grandiose people actually often do get them done. They will talk the big game and they'll kind of do the big game" #### ⏱️ [03:15](https://youtu.be/9sjyBM0z36A?t=195) — [H2] Vulnerable narcissist - passive-aggressive victimhood - Key idea: Most compelling form because they live in fantasies but never execute, always blaming others - Evidence: "This is where you see the sulleness, the petulence, the passive aggression, the chronic victimhood... everyone takes advantage of me" #### ⏱️ [04:45](https://youtu.be/9sjyBM0z36A?t=285) — [H1] Malignant narcissist - the most severe form - Key idea: Combines narcissism with psychopathy, machiavellianism, and sadism for coercive control - Evidence: "More coercive, who are more menacing, who are more isolating. This feels a little bit more like psychopathy" #### ⏱️ [06:20](https://youtu.be/9sjyBM0z36A?t=380) — [H2] Communal narcissist - the hidden humanitarian - Key idea: Gains validation by appearing as saviors publicly while being abusive privately - Evidence: "Everyone thinks they're a humanitarian... but behind the scenes they're not" #### ⏱️ [08:10](https://youtu.be/9sjyBM0z36A?t=490) — [H2] Self-righteous narcissist - rigid moralistic judgment - Key idea: Judgmental, rigid people who show no empathy even to family in crisis - Evidence: "Someone in their family has a hardship... they'll say well I didn't create this situation so I guess you'll have to figure it out" #### ⏱️ [10:30](https://youtu.be/9sjyBM0z36A?t=630) — [H3] Neglectful narcissist - treating people as objects - Key idea: They ignore everyone unless they need something, causing people to feel like they don't exist - Evidence: "They view everyone as object... you feel like a really neglected personal assistant" #### ⏱️ [13:45](https://youtu.be/9sjyBM0z36A?t=825) — [H1] Danger zone body language cues - Key idea: Certain physical cues reveal deception and manipulation that are hard to control - Evidence: "Danger zone cues are the cues that get us into trouble. They're the cues that liars use" #### ⏱️ [15:20](https://youtu.be/9sjyBM0z36A?t=920) — [H2] Lip pursing as withholding gesture - Key idea: Pressing lips into flat line reveals someone is holding something back or doesn't like what's being said - Evidence: "When we're literally trying to hold something in... we go [lip purse]. That is a universal withholding gesture" #### ⏱️ [18:30](https://youtu.be/9sjyBM0z36A?t=1110) — [H2] Elevated blink rate during deception - Key idea: Rapid blinking indicates nervousness and attempt to block out stimuli while processing lies - Evidence: "When we're really nervous, we literally want to close out stimuli... so we can process what's happening" #### ⏱️ [35:50](https://youtu.be/9sjyBM0z36A?t=2150) — [H1] Cultural narcissism vs clinical narcissism - Key idea: We live in a narcissistic culture of constant self-promotion that creates diagnostic criteria matching the era - Evidence: "We do live in a narcissistic culture... Once you are continuously evaluating yourself, proving yourself, performing" #### ⏱️ [38:45](https://youtu.be/9sjyBM0z36A?t=2325) — [H2] Covert narcissism through victimization - Key idea: Power can come from underneath through guilt manipulation and passive aggression - Evidence: "You can have power through victimization. You can make people feel guilty all the time" #### ⏱️ [52:20](https://youtu.be/9sjyBM0z36A?t=3140) — [H1] Breaking generational trauma cycles - Key idea: The worst damage comes from parents not breaking their own dysfunctional patterns - Evidence: "The thing that's going to make them more dysfunctional... is to not break their own cycle from their own past" #### ⏱️ [54:15](https://youtu.be/9sjyBM0z36A?t=3255) — [H3] Adult children of narcissists become self-critical - Key idea: Children of hypercritical parents often internalize that criticism and become harsh with themselves - Evidence: "Mom and dad... hypercritical and judgmental. Now I then grow up... But what am I to myself? Hypercritical and judgmental" ## 📚 References - [Dr. Ramani Durvasula](https://doctor-ramani.com/) - [Vanessa Van Edwards - Science of People](https://www.scienceofpeople.com/) - [Esther Perel](https://www.estherperel.com/) - [Jerry Wise - Family Therapy](https://jerrywise.com/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Narcissism comes in six distinct forms, from the obvious grandiose type to the hidden communal and neglectful varieties that are harder to spot - Body language reveals deception through involuntary cues like lip pursing, distancing behavior, and rapid blinking that manipulators struggle to control - We live in a culture that promotes narcissistic behavior, and covert narcissists control through victimization rather than obvious dominance - Childhood narcissistic abuse creates adults who struggle with self-criticism and continue dysfunctional patterns unless they consciously break the cycle ## 📰 Newsletter **Spot the Hidden Narcissists: Expert Warning Signs You Can't Ignore** Think you know what narcissism looks like? Think again. Leading experts reveal that the most dangerous narcissists often appear as caring helpers, rigid perfectionists, or chronic victims - not the obvious egomaniacs we expect. Dr. Ramani identifies six distinct types, including the "communal narcissist" who gains validation through appearing altruistic while being privately abusive. Meanwhile, body language expert Vanessa Van Edwards shares the involuntary "danger zone" cues that expose deception - like lip pursing and elevated blink rates that manipulators can't control. The key insight? Breaking these toxic patterns starts with recognition and firm boundaries, especially if you grew up in a narcissistic family system. **Essential Resources:** - [Dr. Ramani's Narcissism Resources](https://doctor-ramani.com) - [Science of People Body Language Guide](https://scienceofpeople.com) - [Esther Perel Relationship Resources](https://estherperel.com) ## ✅ Action Items #### Community - Develop narcissistic abuse survivor support networks and resources - Create educational content on recognizing covert manipulation tactics - Establish mentorship programs for breaking generational trauma patterns #### FAIR - Policy development around psychological safety in community spaces - Governance structures that prevent narcissistic capture of leadership roles - Transparency mechanisms to expose manipulative behavior patterns #### WordPress - Community: Training for meetup organizers on identifying and managing toxic community members - Support: Resources for community members dealing with narcissistic abuse - Documentation: Guidelines for maintaining psychological safety in collaborative environments ## 🧪 Hypotheses - People with narcissistic traits gravitate toward positions of community leadership and influence - Early intervention and education can prevent narcissistic abuse patterns from perpetuating - Body language training can improve people's ability to identify manipulative behavior - Community structures with transparency and accountability reduce narcissistic capture ### 📊 Methodology - Survey community leaders about experiences with manipulative members - Video analysis of suspected narcissistic behavior using danger zone cue framework - Longitudinal study of children from narcissistic families who receive early intervention - Comparative analysis of community health in transparent vs opaque organizational structures ### ❓ Questions - How can communities create early warning systems for narcissistic behavior without enabling false accusations? - What governance structures most effectively prevent narcissistic capture while maintaining efficiency? - How do we balance psychological safety with the need for diverse perspectives in community discourse? ### 🔮 Future Research - Development of AI systems to detect danger zone cues in video communications - Exploration of cultural differences in narcissistic behavior manifestation - Investigation of effective therapy modalities for breaking generational trauma cycles ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Recognition skills can dramatically improve relationship and professional outcomes - Policy: Organizations need clear protocols for addressing manipulative behavior patterns - Security: Narcissistic individuals pose unique risks to community cohesion and safety - Education: Teaching body language awareness and boundary-setting should be prioritized - Funding: Resources needed for survivor support networks and prevention programs ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 9th Grade (Flesch-Kincaid) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Clear categorization of narcissist types, body language demonstrations - Improve: Infographic of danger zone cues, visual family tree of trauma patterns #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full audio/video format with expert interviews - Improve: Podcast summary episodes, guided meditation for trauma recovery #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Detailed explanations, expert quotes, real-world examples - Improve: Glossary of psychological terms, comparison charts between types #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Role-playing scenarios implied in examples - Improve: Interactive body language practice exercises, boundary-setting workshops #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Systematic categorization, cause-effect relationships - Improve: Decision trees for identifying types, logical frameworks for recovery #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Group discussion format, relationship-focused content - Improve: Support group facilitation guides, peer coaching frameworks #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Self-assessment opportunities, personal reflection prompts - Improve: Journaling exercises, self-paced recovery workbooks #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Discussion of cultural/environmental factors in narcissism - Improve: Ecosystem thinking about family systems, natural healing metaphors ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, descriptive content organization - Improve: Alt text for body language demonstrations, transcript formatting #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard video player controls - Improve: Timestamp navigation shortcuts, chapter jumping functionality #### Contrast and readability - Present: Good contrast in video presentation - Improve: High contrast mode for danger zone cue identification #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive video player - Improve: Adjustable caption sizing, mobile-optimized chapter navigation #### Media and captions - Present: Full video with audio - Improve: Detailed captions including emotional context, downloadable transcripts #### Forms and interactions - Present: Basic video interaction - Improve: Interactive self-assessment tools with accessible design ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion of cultural variations in narcissism expression - Improve: Examples from diverse cultural contexts, multilingual resources #### Inclusive language - Present: Gender-neutral language in most contexts - Improve: Consistent use of inclusive pronouns, trauma-informed language #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear chapter structure, predictable format - Improve: Content warnings for trauma discussions, sensory-friendly viewing options #### Representation - Present: Diverse expert perspectives, varied relationship examples - Improve: More diverse case studies, representation of different family structures #### Psychological safety - Present: Trauma-informed approach to sensitive topics - Improve: Clear content warnings, crisis resources prominently displayed ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Expert credentials and clinical experience support classification systems - Inductive strength: Pattern recognition from multiple case examples builds understanding - Causal reasoning: Clear links established between childhood trauma and adult dysfunction - Analogical --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] If you keep finding yourself drained, [00:02] confused, or questioning your worth [00:04] after certain relationships, then this [00:07] episode is for you. Now, have you ever [00:09] wondered, why do I always attract this [00:11] type of person? Or why do I feel so [00:14] small after loving them? Well, I hate to [00:17] break it to you. You may have been [00:19] dealing with a narcissist and you didn't [00:21] even realize it. And the truth is, [00:24] narcissistic dynamics don't always look [00:27] like what we expect. They don't always [00:29] look like a loud ego. Sometimes they [00:32] look like care. Sometimes they look like [00:36] protection. And it can be confusing. So, [00:38] how do you spot it? And how do you [00:40] protect yourself? And most importantly, [00:42] how do you heal from it when you've [00:44] dealt with it without carrying that [00:47] damage into future relationships? Well, [00:50] today I've put together a powerful [00:51] master class where we're bringing in the [00:54] world's leading experts and we're going [00:56] to be helping you identify the signs, [00:58] break patterns, and rebuild your [01:01] self-rust and learn how to create [01:03] healthy, safe, and secure relationships [01:06] moving forward. In this first section, [01:08] we have narcissism expert Dr. Romney [01:11] Dasula. She is the gold standard on this [01:14] topic and she's going to break down the [01:16] six different types of narcissists that [01:18] you need to look out for. Let's check [01:20] this out. [01:21] >> Grandio, which is the traditional [01:22] arrogant, pretentious, [01:25] charming, charismatic, you know, kind of [01:28] shiny narcissist. That's your kind of [01:29] prototype of the narcissist. There's the [01:31] vulnerable narcissist. This is probably [01:34] to me the most compelling form of [01:35] narcissism because this is where you see [01:37] the sulleness, the petulence, the [01:40] passive aggression, the chronic [01:42] victimhood, the social anxiety, the [01:44] failure to launch. These are people who [01:46] live in fantasies of the great things [01:48] they're going to do, but they never do [01:50] them. [01:50] >> Wow. [01:50] >> The grandiose people actually often do [01:52] get them done. They will talk the big [01:54] game and they'll kind of do the big [01:56] game. [01:56] >> So the vulnerable doesn't mean they're [01:58] actually intimate and vulnerable with [01:59] you. It means that they [02:01] >> they themselves are vulnerable, [02:03] >> but they don't actually take action. [02:04] >> Correct. And they and [02:06] >> you tell everyone, I'm going to do this [02:07] project or this thing [02:08] >> and you know why I couldn't do it [02:09] because that guy didn't give me the [02:10] money and that guy was scammed me and [02:12] that you know everyone takes advantage [02:14] of me and that person stole my idea. [02:16] That's that's that [02:17] >> the vulnerable. Okay. [02:17] >> The vulnerable. Okay. [02:19] >> Then there's the malignant. Now to me [02:21] the malignant narcissist is the most [02:22] severe form of narcissism. And that's [02:24] when we talk about stuff like the dark [02:26] tetrd. And the dark tetrd is composed of [02:29] narcissism, psychopathy, mchavelianism, [02:32] the willingness to take advantage of [02:33] other people, and sadism, and I also [02:35] believe paranoia sits in there, too. [02:37] Right? So, in malignant narcissism, [02:39] we're talking about people who are more [02:40] coercive, who are more menacing, who are [02:44] more isolating. This feels a little bit [02:46] more like psychopathy, but it's still [02:48] narcissism. That's much more severe. [02:50] Okay. Then we have the communal [02:52] narcissists. [02:53] >> Communal. [02:53] >> Communal. And these are the folks who [02:55] get so all narcissistic folks need [02:57] validation. The nar the communal [02:59] narcissistic folks are interesting [03:00] because they get their validation by [03:02] being perceived as saviors, rescuers and [03:05] dookers [03:06] >> like cult leaders or more [03:07] >> that's a severe. So a cult leader would [03:09] be a communal malignant narcissist. That [03:11] would be so these are like cocktails, [03:13] right? These like you move every you put [03:14] it all together. At the extreme, a [03:17] communal malignant narcissist cult [03:19] leader. But some communal narcissists [03:20] can be could be a mother who does all [03:24] the activities and the PTA and is the is [03:27] the helps the little league and raises [03:29] the money and goes to the gallas and [03:31] goes home and screams at her kids and is [03:32] horrible and abuses her partner. [03:34] >> But on the surface looks like she's [03:36] >> they think she's an a saint amongst us. [03:39] It's the person who walks around and [03:40] everyone thinks they're a humanitarian [03:42] and people are like, "No, no, no. I [03:43] worked for their nonprofit and like they [03:45] it was a hellscape, right? [03:47] >> Yeah. When you look behind the curtain, [03:48] you see [03:49] >> bingo. So, it's that's the communal [03:51] narcissist. So, they're they get [03:53] validation by being by the sense of look [03:56] what a good person they're rescuing [03:58] puppies and they're they're doing this [04:00] thing and they're raising all this money [04:01] and they're so good, [04:02] >> but behind the scenes they're not [04:04] >> not. So, it's not saying people do nice [04:06] things are communal narcissists. It's [04:08] it's that that they continue to have the [04:10] lack of empathy, entitlement, all that [04:12] other stuff. So, it's like you can, you [04:13] know, because I'm like, okay, well, you [04:15] know, I want to I want to build a [04:16] community and serve people. So, how do [04:18] you build a community? You've got a big [04:19] audience. Like, how do we build [04:21] communities without [04:22] >> that becoming a thing? Is it just [04:24] because if you're not consistent with [04:25] service all around you and your [04:27] relationships, then you're more [04:29] >> So, I mean, are you being mean to other [04:30] people? So, like if I was [04:32] >> public facing, you look like the best [04:33] thing ever, but behind the scenes. [04:35] >> Exactly. So you're mean to your partner. [04:37] You're mean to your family. You're mean [04:39] to your people who work. [04:40] >> You're inconsistent. [04:42] >> You're Well, you're you're consistent. [04:43] You're consistently mean to the people [04:44] who are behind the curtain. You're [04:46] consistently sort of putting on a show [04:47] in front of the curtain. [04:48] >> Yeah. Yeah. But you're not consistent on [04:49] both ways. No. And that's like service [04:51] mindset. Okay. Comm. [04:53] >> No. Communal. And then there's the [04:54] self-righteous narcissist. And the [04:56] self-righteous narcissist is judgmental, [04:59] moralistic, rigid. They're often funky [05:02] with money. Um they will like they will [05:07] this would be a kind of person who has a [05:11] so much money and someone in their [05:14] family has a hardship. They they had a [05:17] job loss and then their kid needs you [05:18] know needs medical care and they'll say [05:20] well I didn't create this situation so I [05:23] guess you'll have to figure it out. [05:24] >> They have no heart. [05:25] >> Like this is it feels like no heart but [05:27] there's also this really rigid [05:28] judgmental and they judge people from [05:30] the sense of well look at all I built. I [05:32] guess I must have worked hard. They'll [05:33] never account for their luck, right? Or [05:35] sometimes their absence of bad luck, [05:37] that kind of thing. They will say, if [05:38] they say dinner's at 6 and you show up [05:41] at 6:30 because your kid got sick, [05:43] they'll say, "I'm sorry, we already [05:45] ate." So, it's very, it feels very [05:47] rigid, cold, moralistic, miserly, [05:51] obsessive. These are people who are [05:52] often workaholics and with little care [05:54] for how it would affect anyone. It's [05:56] like there's workaholics out there who [05:58] check in on other people like I'm going [05:59] to make time for you or once you and [06:02] we're going to do we're taking a [06:02] vacation when this is done whatever and [06:04] they're communicating and people are [06:06] aware okay they're doing this so we [06:07] could buy the house or whatever. [06:09] >> So is it possible to be self-righteous [06:10] and not be a narcissist then? [06:12] >> I don't think you can ever be [06:13] self-righteous and healthy because I [06:15] think if you're self-righteous you're [06:16] like I'm better than you. [06:18] >> Ah gotcha. [06:18] >> Right. So, they you'll even see [06:20] self-righteous narcissism in some of [06:21] these kinds of exercise zealots who are [06:24] like, I wake up at 4:00 a.m. and then I [06:26] milk my goat and I make a smoothie and [06:29] then I do a thousand thousand crunches [06:31] and run 10 million miles and then I work [06:33] and then I journal and then I this and I [06:35] sleep at 8:00 and I'm like, what are you [06:37] talking about? Like, is there no other [06:38] human baby in your life? Like, how do [06:40] you deal with a crying sister? I tell [06:42] her to go to hell and I drink more goat [06:43] milk, you know? I mean, it's that that [06:45] can be self like and the reason I'm in [06:47] shape and I'm going to live to be 179 [06:49] years old is because I do all this and [06:51] you don't you lazy awful person. That's [06:53] self-righteous. [06:54] >> Lacking compassion, lacking [06:56] understanding, [06:56] >> lack of lack of awareness of others. So, [06:58] that self-righteousness is sort of where [07:00] the the lack of empathy sits, right? So, [07:03] I don't think you can be self I don't [07:05] think there's good self-righteousness. I [07:07] don't think all self-righteous people [07:08] are narcissistic, but many people said [07:10] to me that self-righteous narcissism is [07:12] really what happened in their family of [07:14] origin. It was a parent. So there would [07:16] almost be this unrealistic expectation [07:18] that the child would adhere to rigid [07:21] obsessive rules like don't touch this, [07:23] don't do this, don't sit there, eat like [07:25] this, and so the kid never got to be a [07:27] kid. [07:29] >> Okay, number six. [07:31] >> And number six would be more of a [07:32] neglectful narcissist. So these are the [07:34] people who they will not they view [07:37] everyone as object. So coffee cup [07:40] whatever [07:42] and they and they just neglect them [07:44] until they need them. [07:45] >> They just discard them or they just [07:48] don't give them attention or energy or [07:50] >> they don't attune. They don't have to [07:51] give them attention. They don't attune [07:52] to them. They don't they when a person [07:57] around them is struggling [07:59] they won't care. that it's it's it's [08:02] >> a lack of empathy. [08:03] >> It's a lack of empathy, but it's a lack [08:05] of like for example, a malignant or a [08:07] grandiose narcissist might actually get [08:09] mad at someone like, "Oh my gosh, like [08:12] why do you keep talking to me?" And [08:13] people in relationships, neglectful [08:15] narcissists will say, "I'll take it cuz [08:17] at least that person was listening." But [08:19] people in these relationships will [08:21] literally feel like they're losing their [08:23] minds because the person with them is [08:26] literally not noticing unless they need [08:29] something from you. [08:30] >> Wow. So, they're giving the cold [08:31] shoulder. They don't speak to them for [08:32] days, whatever. [08:33] >> Whatever. They just don't notice. They [08:35] don't care. They won't know. Like, you [08:36] might say like, "I have the biggest [08:38] presentation of the year next week." [08:40] They won't even ask. [08:41] >> Wow. It's all about them. [08:42] >> It's all about them, but in this weird [08:45] way, but and and they don't even take [08:47] notice of other people. So, it is a um [08:51] people who I've known clients in this [08:54] experience and they'll say it's as [08:56] though I didn't exist, but then when I [09:00] had the piece of information or [09:01] something they needed, I existed. So, [09:03] you feel like a really neglected [09:04] personal assistant. [09:06] >> Oh my gosh. [09:08] >> In this next section, we are speaking [09:10] with behavior expert Vanessa Van [09:13] Edwards. She's going to show the [09:15] physical signs, the body language that [09:17] tells you exactly who you're dealing [09:20] with. [09:21] >> Can you talk to me the difference [09:22] between charisma and narcissism? [09:24] >> Mhm. [09:25] >> And how can you spot when someone is [09:27] actually warm and caring and [09:29] charismatic? [09:30] >> Yeah. [09:31] >> Versus someone who uses the skills or [09:34] the tools of charisma [09:36] >> in their narcissistic approach towards [09:39] manipulating, controlling, and getting [09:40] what they want in life. So, this is my [09:43] biggest fear with this book. This is my [09:44] this is my single biggest fear and it uh [09:47] was an issue for me when I first started [09:49] writing it [09:50] >> is I'll be honest. You can use this book [09:52] for manipulation. [09:53] >> Yeah, of course. [09:54] >> And that scares me. [09:56] >> And when a smart person who's [09:57] narcissistic is going to study [09:59] everything and then start using [10:01] >> it scares me. [10:01] >> So, how can you tell the difference? The [10:04] subtle cues, these are very subtle now. [10:06] >> Very subtle. Yeah. So, we're talking [10:08] about big to subtle, right? There's like [10:09] a range of them. So first is it is my [10:11] biggest fear with this book that people [10:12] do not have the right intentions and my [10:14] hope is that we can actually use these [10:16] powers for good and not evil. That is [10:18] the number one thing is you you can if [10:20] you want to. Here's the good news. There [10:22] are certain cues that we cannot control [10:23] and if you have bad intentions they will [10:26] leak. So I call these danger zone cues. [10:28] So in the book I talk about there's four [10:30] different types of cues. There's highly [10:31] warm, non-verbal, verbal and vocal. So [10:34] these are things that make you highly [10:35] warm, highly trustworthy, highly [10:36] likable. There's highly competent cues, [10:39] verbal, non-verbal, and vocal. And then [10:41] there's charismatic, the ones that are [10:42] just knock it out of the park. Like, [10:44] they're just great. And the last one is [10:46] danger zone cues. Danger zone cues are [10:48] the cues that get us into trouble. [10:50] They're the cues that liars use. [10:52] >> They're the way that we leak guilt and [10:53] shame. Actually, shame is not a bad [10:55] thing. It's only when you have guilt uh [10:56] that you've done something wrong. So, in [10:58] the danger zone, it is very hard to [11:01] inhibit those cues. So, I teach them [11:03] because I want people to be able to spot [11:05] them. [11:05] >> Okay. What are those cues? [11:07] >> Okay, so there's a bunch and I'll let's [11:09] talk about as many as we can. So, [11:10] >> and this might be someone who's very [11:12] successful, someone who's accomplished a [11:15] lot potentially, someone that seems very [11:17] credible, someone that could be [11:19] >> in a power position, owning a business [11:21] or having influence online or something [11:23] like that, right? [11:24] >> Yeah. Yeah. [11:25] >> Extremely success. They could be [11:26] successful. They could seem credible, [11:28] trustworthy. [11:28] >> Yes. [11:29] >> But might be super narcissistic [11:31] underneath. [11:32] >> Yes. So there's a couple danger zone [11:33] cues that we can control which a [11:35] manipulative person could inhibit, [11:37] right? So for example, one that I found [11:39] that I talk about in the book is Lance [11:41] Armstrong. [11:42] >> So Lance Armstrong, for those who don't [11:43] know, spoiler alert, uh Lance Armstrong [11:45] was doping. So if you haven't, someone [11:47] was like, there was spoilers in the book [11:49] and I was like, you haven't heard of [11:50] that yet? [11:52] >> I also talk about Britney Spears in the [11:53] book uh because there's some really [11:54] interesting cues on her, which I think [11:56] why we're worried about her, why her [11:58] fans worry. She's she shows a lot of [11:59] danger zone cues. So Lance Armstrong in [12:01] one of his early interviews on Larry [12:03] King Live, he's asked about doping and [12:06] he does what's called a lip purse. So a [12:08] lip purse is, [12:10] >> okay, when we push our line our lips [12:12] into a flat line, we mash our lips [12:14] together. That is a universal [12:15] withholding gesture. [12:17] >> So when we're literally trying to hold [12:19] something in or hold something back or [12:20] we don't like what's being said or [12:22] heard, we go. [12:24] And so you'll notice that when someone [12:26] has been asked something they don't [12:28] like, when someone had to lie, a lot of [12:30] the times, so we did a massive [12:32] experiment in our lab where we asked [12:33] people to send in videos of themselves [12:35] lying. Actually, you play it in the [12:36] book. It's called lie to me. So I have [12:37] you lie to me. Uh play this lie to me [12:39] game to diagnose your own tells. It's [12:41] very important [12:42] >> to know your own tells because you [12:44] should know what your danger zone cues [12:45] are when you're leaking them. [12:47] >> And one of you should know those. It's [12:49] good to know those in the back of your [12:50] pocket. Um do that with your partner, [12:51] right? you we want you want them to know [12:53] what those are too. Um so one thing that [12:55] we noticed is on lies that was one of [12:58] the biggest indicators. So in lie to me [13:00] game we ask you to do two things. We ask [13:01] you to tell us uh an embarrassing story [13:03] your most embarrassing story and then a [13:06] fake embarrassing story [13:07] >> and we want to see if we can tell the [13:09] difference if we if we cut the clips. [13:11] Can we know which one is the fake one? [13:12] >> Man, that'd be interesting. [13:13] >> Yes. And it's amazing. You see the same [13:16] danger zone cues over and over again. [13:17] right before someone's about to lie and [13:19] tell their fake embarrassing story. They [13:20] go, "Okay." And they lip purse right [13:23] before they're going to do it. And [13:24] that's because we don't like lying. Our [13:26] body knows it's going to get us into [13:27] trouble. So, we're like, "Stop it. Stop [13:28] it. Stop it." And we hold ourselves [13:30] back. You ask a woman, "How much do you [13:32] weigh?" And she'll go, [13:34] >> like, literally close those lips because [13:35] no woman wants to talk about how much [13:36] she weighs. So, it's a withholding [13:38] gesture. And so, um, that's the first [13:39] thing is you want to look for some of [13:41] the bigger cues. Withholding gestures. [13:43] Uh, lip purse is one. Uh, a sudden [13:46] distancing behavior. So, we also noticed [13:47] that liars in our lab, they wanted to [13:49] like get away from the lie, like as if [13:51] it smelled. [13:52] >> So, like when they were telling their [13:53] most embarrassing story, they'd be like [13:54] leaning in, using gestures. Oh, it was [13:56] so embarrassing. Remember, embarrassing [13:58] stories are negative, [13:59] >> right? [14:00] >> It's not like it's a positive memory. [14:02] It's like people are like, and they do a [14:03] shame touch. The universal shame touch [14:05] is when people uh touch their fingers to [14:07] the side of their forehead. [14:08] >> This happened and I'm like, "Oh gosh, [14:11] I'm so embarrassed." [14:12] >> So, they usually tell the truth and they [14:13] do like this. [14:14] >> Yes. Because they're actually [14:15] embarrassed, right? So these are all [14:16] good a like congruent, right? We're [14:18] seeing embarrassment and shame gesture. [14:21] We're seeing negative nonverbal and [14:22] people shaking their head. I can't [14:23] believe that happened, right? Like they [14:25] oh they're so upset that happened. We're [14:26] seeing cringes. We're seeing fear. We're [14:28] seeing sadness. Congruent, right? Like [14:30] that's all congruent emotion. [14:32] >> On the bad stories, we often see people [14:34] will lip purse and they try to get away [14:36] from it. So they'll say a statement and [14:37] then uh you know and then um and they're [14:42] literally like as far away. I hope I'm [14:45] not messing up my audio. They're as far [14:46] away from the lie as they can possibly [14:48] get. They're leaning back. They'll [14:50] sometimes literally lean their head back [14:51] in the chair. [14:53] >> And that's because physically we want to [14:54] distance ourselves from things we don't [14:56] like. [14:57] >> So, we're looking for lip purses, sudden [14:59] distancing. And there's a lot of cues [15:00] that we can't control, right? So, blink [15:02] rate is another one. Eye blocking [15:03] behavior is um liars have higher blink [15:06] rates. [15:06] >> They blink more. [15:08] >> Yeah. actually in uh Britney Spears, she [15:09] had a a really interesting interview [15:11] that I um I actually break this down on [15:12] my YouTube channel, so you don't even [15:13] have to read the book if you want to see [15:14] it where I break down the cues in this [15:16] early interview. This is right before [15:18] the conservatorship started. So very [15:20] very full of cues cuz it's right before [15:22] it happened. And she gets asked a very [15:25] difficult question. And she all of a [15:27] sudden her blink rate goes from a normal [15:29] rate to a high rate. So she starts to to [15:31] really quickly blink her eyes like this. [15:33] And that is because when we're really [15:35] nervous, we literally want to close out [15:37] stimuli to not see what's happening so [15:39] we can process what's happening. So [15:42] blink rate is something that a lot of [15:43] manipulative people cannot control. In [15:45] fact, when I share this, people go, "Oh, [15:47] I know a very narcissistic, manipulative [15:49] person who has a very high blink rate." [15:52] >> Interesting. [15:52] >> Because they're literally like trying to [15:54] block out the lie or the manipulation. [15:56] And so they'll sound really good, but [15:58] they're like really like processing a [15:59] lot. And you and you're like, "Why are [16:01] they blinking so much?" And it's because [16:03] they're trying to process. [16:04] >> Oh my goodness. [16:05] >> So just knowing those cues are not all [16:06] bad on their own, but just it's [16:08] important to know what those cues look [16:09] like so you can spot them. And I do [16:11] think I really think manipulative people [16:14] will get caught eventually. [16:15] >> It is very hard to fake competence. [16:18] >> It is very hard to fake warmth. It's [16:21] hard to keep that up. [16:23] >> And so for the long game, [16:25] >> yes, you can learn a couple of these [16:26] cues and try to master your way around [16:28] them. [16:29] >> But for the long game, it's really hard. [16:30] I mean, look at, you know, Theronos, [16:32] right? So, [16:34] >> um, Elizabeth Holmes. So, spoiler alert, [16:37] Theronos did not go well. I feel like I [16:39] always have to say that. [16:40] >> So, one of her interesting cues is, um, [16:43] I don't know if you've ever seen her [16:44] talk, she has a really she uses a really [16:46] deep voice, like fakey deep, like down [16:48] here. [16:49] >> And people used to say like, "Is that [16:51] real?" It's because she read in some Q [16:54] book, it wasn't mine because my book [16:55] wasn't out then, thank goodness. She [16:57] read in some book that having a lower [16:59] tone of voice makes you more competent. [17:01] And that is true. [17:02] >> Research has found that people who use [17:04] the lower end of their natural voice [17:06] tone are seen as competent. That's for [17:07] both men and women. [17:08] >> So you have a very deep voice and it [17:10] serves you really well. [17:11] >> When I'm talking right now, I'm trying [17:13] to use the lowest end of my natural [17:15] register. When I'm talking to my [17:16] toddler, [17:17] >> right? Right. When I'm talking to my [17:18] toddler, I'm much more up here, you [17:20] know? Hey baby, how are you? But if I [17:22] were to do my entire interview like [17:23] this, it would drive you crazy. Right. [17:25] You wouldn't feel as competent. [17:26] >> No. And it wouldn't people would go, I I [17:28] can't I'm not taking her or take her [17:29] seriously. So she read that study [17:32] obviously [17:32] >> went an octave lower. [17:33] >> There you go. And went an octave lower. [17:36] So it it wasn't her natural voice tone. [17:37] It was like one step lower than her [17:39] voice tone. So she was always talking [17:40] like this. And when she did an [17:42] interview, she would talk like this. And [17:43] you would hear that this just doesn't [17:44] sound natural. And part of your Spidey [17:46] sense would be like, why is she talking [17:48] so low? It sounds really unnatural. And [17:51] it came out that when she was drunk, her [17:54] employees noticed that she went back [17:56] into her natural register. [17:57] >> Wow. [17:58] >> So there are cues that they will [18:00] eventually [18:01] >> don't drink alcohol. [18:03] >> And that is the point of this story. [18:05] Don't drink alcohol. You [18:06] >> or you're going to get caught. [18:08] >> So like you can't keep it up for that [18:09] long is that she was faking that cue. We [18:12] think [18:12] >> I think you're also just your body is [18:14] out of integrity. Like the more you're [18:16] you're keeping back something, you're [18:18] telling a slight lie or whatever. I [18:19] mean, I felt this from the past cuz I've [18:22] been out of integrity in my life at [18:23] different times from different stages of [18:24] childhood to adulthood, right? For [18:26] little white lies to bigger stuff hiding [18:28] from my parents or whatever it is. [18:30] >> They feel bad. [18:30] >> So, you're like like something inside of [18:32] you feels off, right? And then you got [18:34] to like keep the lie up and you're like, [18:36] uh, eventually you're going to explode [18:38] or you're going to have a heart attack [18:39] or something. It's going to leak. [18:41] >> It's going to leak leak cues. [18:43] >> Leak you leak those cues and like those [18:45] are the cues that we're looking for. [18:46] Like I want you to be on the lookout for [18:48] them because when something feels bad [18:49] like even like something feels bad even [18:51] just then when you were saying it felt [18:52] bad your voice tone changed just then [18:55] >> because when you think about oh I'm like [18:57] think about seeing a toxic person and I [18:58] know that people probably have toxic [19:00] people in their lives and this is why [19:01] toxic people [19:03] >> are so challenging because toxic people [19:05] put us out of integrity. Toxic people [19:09] force us to use warm cues where we don't [19:11] feel like it. [19:12] >> Now we can do it. [19:13] >> What do you mean we got to be nice to [19:15] them or something? [19:15] >> Yeah. So, like if you have a toxic [19:17] person, and this is the thorn in and I [19:19] think our work is I want everyone to be [19:21] their best selves. I want them to show [19:22] up as their warmest, most confident [19:24] self. But what if you have a toxic [19:25] person? How do you do that [19:27] authentically? And this is what's so [19:29] hard about toxic people. [19:30] >> You have a colleague or co-orker or [19:32] family member [19:33] >> that you don't like, right? And you have [19:36] to break out the fake warmth cues. Oh, [19:38] hi. How are you? [19:41] >> Right? And so what do we do? We fake [19:43] smile, right? So, oh, it's so good to [19:44] see you. Mhm. [19:47] Doesn't look like it, right? Or we say, [19:49] "Oh, yeah. So, how Oh, that sounds good. [19:51] Congratulations, [19:54] >> right? [19:54] >> You know, your LA roots are coming back [19:56] to you." [19:57] >> And Right. That's why toxic people [19:59] challenge us is because they come into [20:01] our lives, we know we're supposed to be [20:03] warm and so we try to force that warm [20:06] sound and it comes out sort of forced [20:08] and then it makes us feel bad and then [20:10] we're trying to overcompensate for it. [20:11] And so, you know what? The antidote here [20:13] is not learning more fake warmth cues. [20:15] It's It's time to get rid of toxic [20:16] people. [20:17] >> I think that's like the side effect, [20:19] >> right, [20:20] >> of the book is like [20:21] >> don't keep them around. Yeah. [20:22] >> Don't keep those people around because [20:24] >> it will leak and so set boundaries. [20:26] >> What do you mean it will leak? Like your [20:28] integrity will leak because you're [20:29] constantly trying to be nice, but [20:30] they're actually out of integrity cuz [20:32] you don't want to be. Is that right? [20:33] >> Right. That's exactly right. [20:34] >> So your body is like, I'm doing [20:36] something that's not authentic to me [20:38] because I feel like I have to with this [20:39] person. And the more frequently you do [20:41] that, you feel out of integrity with [20:42] yourself. [20:43] >> Yep. Exactly. yourself [20:45] >> with yourself. That was a question you [20:47] asked. I'm like, "Yes, it was." Yes. [20:50] Yes. It was perfect cuz you were asking [20:51] a question I knew. Yes. [20:52] >> Is if you allow toxic people to come [20:54] into your life, especially without [20:56] boundaries, we have to have some of [20:57] those people we deal with. But if you [20:58] don't have boundaries around them, they [20:59] come into your life and you have to fake [21:01] niceness and that feels really bad. [21:03] >> What happens if let's just say there's a [21:05] person you don't like. [21:06] >> Let's just say maybe they're not toxic. [21:07] There's someone you don't like and you [21:08] don't like being nice to cuz you feel [21:10] like [21:11] >> why am I sp I just don't nothing wrong [21:13] with them. there's not my person. Yeah, [21:14] >> totally. [21:15] >> Let's say you're in a work environment. [21:17] >> Yeah. [21:17] >> And you're at a company got 50, 100 [21:19] employees that you're working with, [21:20] you're on a team with, and you're just, [21:22] okay, I'm here. [21:23] >> Yeah. [21:23] >> Is it better to be inauthentic and lie [21:27] and and act nice around this person, [21:30] >> friendly, fake, how are you, interested, [21:32] even though you've like been around them [21:34] for 6 months or a year and you realize [21:35] you really don't like them? Mhm. [21:37] >> Or is it better to go right up to the [21:39] person and after 6 months say, "You know [21:40] what? I just want to be completely [21:42] honest and not fake with you cuz I feel [21:44] like I've been fake." [21:45] >> Mhm. [21:45] >> That I don't connect with you. I don't [21:47] like you. I think I think you're out of [21:49] integrity. I think you're inauthentic. [21:51] And maybe I'm being judgmental, but I'd [21:53] rather be honest with you. And fake nice [21:55] to you. [21:55] >> Okay, that's A and B. Can I give a C? [21:57] >> Sure. [21:57] >> Okay. So, I don't believe in fake it [22:00] till you make it. So, I I I try not to [22:03] give like fake it. I don't I don't roll [22:05] that way. like I just think it's [22:06] exhausting. I think it's going to leak. [22:08] The C option here is to not fake warmth, [22:11] but is to double down on competence. So [22:14] if you are working with someone that you [22:15] don't like, the one thing that you do [22:17] have to do is get stuff done with them, [22:19] >> right? You have to master your tasks. [22:21] You have to be on it. You have to be [22:22] responsive to emails. So that is [22:23] something that you can be authentic [22:24] about because to do your job, you have [22:27] to be able to get along with them in a [22:29] very professional setting. So I would [22:31] skip all the fake warmth stuff. Don't [22:33] confidence. [22:34] >> Yeah. [22:34] >> Right. Like stick with where you're [22:36] authentic, which is like I don't need to [22:37] hear about your weekend. [22:38] >> I don't need to go to happy hour with [22:40] you. [22:40] >> Um I don't need a fake sitting with you [22:42] for coffee. But you know what? We can [22:43] get stuff done. You know what? We align [22:45] on goals. [22:46] >> Create boundaries around the hey, let's [22:48] go have coffee. Actually, I'm busy. [22:50] >> I'm so busy. I'm so busy today, but you [22:52] know what? Let's do a brainstorm session [22:53] tomorrow at the end of the day so we can [22:54] really kick off. [22:55] >> Yeah. Yeah. [22:56] >> So get back to like the mission, the [22:58] task on hand, the competence. And maybe [23:00] you've just got to be like, "Okay, this [23:02] is someone where, you know, 20 seconds a [23:03] day I've got to be around someone that's [23:05] trying to be fake liy with everyone and [23:08] I'll just wait. [23:09] >> I'm going to get stuff done [23:10] >> and then I'll move on to the next [23:11] thing." [23:11] >> That's it. Exactly. Because then at [23:12] least you're focusing on where you can [23:14] be authentic. [23:15] >> And also that's even if that were to [23:17] come up, you could honestly say that [23:19] kind of conversation could be listen [23:21] like, you know, I'm [23:22] >> I'm not really into like, you know, [23:24] connecting at work. I'm more about [23:25] getting it done. I I want to get home to [23:27] my kids and my family. I hope that's [23:28] okay with you. you know, when we're [23:30] together, if it's all right, I might [23:31] skip lunch and just have us like, you [23:33] know, work it out and be really [23:34] efficient. I really appreciate how [23:36] efficient you are because it allows me [23:37] to get home to my kids faster, [23:39] >> right? Like that's authentic. So, what [23:41] can you appreciate about them that's [23:43] competent? [23:44] >> Yes. [23:44] >> What can you highlight about them that's [23:45] competent? And that's [23:46] >> what you don't feel like they're warm or [23:48] competent. You're like, "This person on [23:50] a team is just that they can't get [23:52] anything done. They're not smart and [23:54] they have fake attitude around me all [23:55] day." [23:56] >> I mean, this depends on how you feel, [23:57] but I would say deal with it. like you [23:59] got like go to your boss, [24:00] >> right? And say, "Hey, I just put on a [24:02] different team or [24:03] >> you say like I don't know how I can work [24:05] with this person. I don't want to be [24:06] unauthentic, but I'm telling you that [24:08] we're not getting stuff done and they [24:10] are causing issues on the team." Like I [24:11] don't like to ignore that stuff. Like [24:12] you could hope it gets better, but ask [24:14] for help. If you have someone on your [24:16] team or someone in your life who is not [24:18] warm nor competent and doesn't treat you [24:20] with warmth or competence, either get [24:21] them out of your life, [24:23] >> set a boundary or get help. [24:24] >> Give them plan or something. Yeah. [24:26] >> Yeah. Don't live with it. Life is too [24:28] short to feel fakeely competent or fake [24:32] warmth, [24:32] >> right? What's been the uh I think I [24:34] asked you this last time. What's been [24:36] the charisma strategy? Yeah, [24:39] >> if you want to call it strategy. [24:40] >> You weren't sure about that. You weren't [24:42] sure. I don't know what the word is [24:43] right but what is the charisma or social [24:45] cue that you've learned in the last 6 [24:47] months that has brought some new [24:50] attention to your life where you said ah [24:52] I wasn't aware of that fully but now the [24:54] research is showing that when someone [24:56] does this it improves this [24:58] >> there's a new cue that I snuck into the [25:00] book in the very last draft because I [25:02] just learned it [25:03] >> and this is actually brought to me by [25:05] one it's a it's a couple of my male [25:06] readers and I'm so curious okay do you [25:08] agree with this Lewis okay here's what [25:11] they Good. So, in the book, I had a [25:13] whole section on nodding. So, nodding, [25:15] affirmative nods, upside down, right? [25:17] Yes. I [25:17] >> nod all the time. [25:18] >> Yeah. Yes. You You're a nod. It's really [25:20] high warmth. We love it. We love that. [25:22] Yes. Nodding is great because vertical [25:24] nods, and by the way, this is different [25:25] in certain cultures where they'll nod. [25:26] They nod um side to sideways. That's [25:28] different. Okay. So, just vertical [25:30] nodding in Western cultures is [25:31] agreement. It's Yes. In fact, research [25:33] has found that when you nod at me [25:35] slowly, I speak three to four times [25:37] longer. [25:38] >> That's cool. That's why you're a good [25:39] interviewer is because you'll not be [25:40] like, "Keep going. Keep going. Keep [25:42] going." [25:42] >> I just kind of I'm just like a [25:43] bobblehead. I'm just kind of like, [25:44] "Yeah, this is like a very slow like [25:46] I'll pause and be like, "Okay, cool." [25:48] >> Okay. Well, actually, you're right. Slow [25:50] nodding is tell me more. Fast nodding is [25:52] finish up. [25:53] >> Yeah. Okay. Okay. [25:54] >> Okay. I got it. I got it. Right. Right. [25:56] Right. Okay. So, that's the difference [25:57] there. If you want someone to wrap up in [25:58] a meeting, give them a one, two, three, [26:00] triple nod. Like, I got it. [26:02] >> If you want them to keep going, an [26:03] introvert. Uhhuh. Uhhuh. Uh-huh. Okay. [26:06] So, that's the difference. That's number [26:07] one. So, I I shared about this. I taught [26:09] it. And then a couple of my male readers [26:11] said to me, "You know, Vanessa, we think [26:13] that there is a secret non-verbal cue [26:16] between guys." Now, I don't know what [26:18] this cue is. Here's what they said. [26:19] >> If you know a guy and you're trying to [26:22] acknowledge him, guy to guy, you not up. [26:24] >> Yeah. [26:24] >> Good to see you. It's literally like an [26:25] open gesture. You're open. [26:27] >> If you don't know a guy, but you're [26:29] trying to acknowledge his presence, you [26:30] Hey, [26:32] >> good to see you. [26:32] >> Oh, wow. That's so true. [26:34] >> Is it true? [26:34] >> That's so true. Yeah. He's like, "Oh, [26:35] good to see you." Yeah. Yeah, [26:36] acknowledged. [26:37] >> Good to see you. [26:38] >> Yeah. Hey, what's up, buddy? [26:40] >> Okay. [26:40] >> Yeah, it's so true. [26:41] >> Okay, so this was so I snuck it into the [26:43] book last minute. [26:44] >> That's fascinating. I wonder is that [26:45] like biology? Is that [26:47] >> Yes. Here's why. [26:48] >> Social like, [26:49] >> okay, here's my here's my theory on [26:50] this. I as soon as I heard this, I was [26:52] like and I started looking. I started [26:53] watching men. I asked my husband. I [26:54] asked my guys. And this is why I think [26:56] it happens. When we know someone, we [26:59] expose our jugular. So, this is a very [27:01] vulnerable part of our body. And we're [27:02] saying, "I know you. I trust you. Look, [27:04] I'm opening. I'm acknowledging you. I [27:06] feel trustworthy. When you don't know [27:07] someone, but you want to show respect, [27:09] you nod down to protect your junk. I [27:11] don't know you, but I see you. I got [27:13] you. [27:13] >> I got you. I here for you. Kind of. [27:15] >> I can't see my jugular, but I'm here for [27:17] you. [27:17] >> Protect myself. I'm here for you, bro. [27:20] What's up? [27:21] >> Exactly. I think that that's where it [27:24] comes from is it's like a do I know you [27:26] or do I not know you? So, in that sense, [27:28] >> makes sense. [27:28] >> This is a high warmth cue. Hey buddy, [27:30] what's up? Right. It's high warmth. [27:31] You're showing your jugular. This is a [27:33] high confidence cue. Hello, good to see [27:35] you. I look ridiculous. I don't do that. [27:36] >> There's nothing that frustrates me more [27:38] than when things don't move with speed. [27:41] And when it comes to building a strong [27:43] daily routine for your life, the tools [27:45] that you rely on at home should make [27:47] things run more smoothly without [27:49] interruptions. And that's the thinking [27:51] behind T-Mobile's 5G home internet. And [27:55] big news, T-Mobile now has the fastest [27:58] 5G home internet according to the [28:00] experts at UCLA speed test. Setup is so [28:04] quick and simple. No technician needed, [28:06] and you're online in 15 minutes or less. [28:08] And the price comes with a 5-year price [28:11] guarantee, so you don't have to worry [28:13] about unexpected price hikes down the [28:15] road. And when I'm working from home, my [28:17] internet does a lot of the heavy [28:18] lifting. It's prepping for the next show [28:20] on the School of Greatness, uploading [28:22] files, I'm doing Zoom calls, I'm doing [28:24] meetings. All these different things are [28:27] all happening, and I need them to happen [28:29] fast. And with T-Mobile 5G home [28:31] internet, things move fast and stay [28:34] smooth. Pages load quickly, files upload [28:37] successfully, and I can stay focused [28:38] without constant interruptions. It makes [28:41] a big difference. Visit [28:42] t-mobile.com/home [28:45] internet to check availability today. [28:48] Price guarantee exclusions like taxes [28:50] and fees apply. Fastest based on UCLA [28:53] speed test intelligence data. Second [28:56] half of 2025. All rights reserved. In [29:00] this third section, we have the [29:01] legendary psychotherapist Esther Pel, [29:05] who is going to share the clear patterns [29:07] that prove your partner might be a [29:10] narcissist. [29:11] >> What's your thoughts on narcissism in [29:12] general? And can people change or evolve [29:15] out of it? [29:17] >> I can answer it clinically and and [29:19] culturally. I mean, maybe we should [29:21] start by talking about the like [29:22] Christopher Lash talked about. We do [29:24] live in a narcissistic culture, [29:26] >> selfie culture, the likes [29:28] >> in a culture of narcissism. Once you are [29:30] continuously evaluating yourself, [29:32] proving yourself, performing, [29:35] demonstrating yourself, you know, [29:37] posting about yourself, engaging in fake [29:40] news about yourself. you are in a [29:42] narcissistic culture that you know [29:46] criteria diagnosis [29:50] accompany [29:51] the culture of the day. In the 19th [29:54] century we talked about hysteria. [29:57] >> Mhm. [29:57] >> We do not talk much about hysteria today [30:00] because we realized that the majority of [30:02] these hysteric women supposedly hysteric [30:05] women were actually women who had [30:07] experienced sexual abuse. [30:08] >> Mhm. [30:09] >> They were not hysterical. They were [30:11] traumatized. [30:12] >> Yes. [30:13] >> Narcissism is the word that we come back [30:15] with on the 21st century. [30:18] Stress and anxiety and depression was [30:21] the 20th century. So every century and [30:24] every culture has its expressions [30:28] through mental [30:30] illness or mental manifestations. Okay. [30:34] Eating disorders exist in some cultures [30:36] and not in others. you you you know a a [30:39] diagnosis a personality disorder doesn't [30:42] just exist like that without a [30:44] background so that means that it's easy [30:48] to make these issues very personal but [30:51] they are also societal that said I have [30:54] sat with people who have a whole range [30:56] of narcissistic tendencies [30:58] >> to get to saying somebody is a [31:00] narcissist somebody is depressed [31:03] somebody's [31:04] >> you know I think that there are there's [31:07] more to us than just that, [31:09] >> right? [31:10] >> But you see a lot of people with [31:11] narcissistic tendencies and you see a [31:14] lot of people who not not just this [31:16] exhibiting it with manifest narcissism, [31:18] but there's a whole other form of [31:20] narcissism that is called covert [31:22] narcissism which we talk about much less [31:24] because we don't name it in those ways. [31:26] >> What is the difference? [31:28] >> That is a long conversation. It's really [31:31] a long conversation [31:32] >> in the short form. What is the [31:34] >> you know power can come from above and [31:37] power can come from underneath. [31:39] You can have power through [31:40] victimization. You can make people feel [31:43] guilty all the time. You can be passive [31:45] aggressive. You can make people [31:47] continuously feel that they are [31:48] responsible for your life that if they [31:50] don't do what you want that you may kill [31:52] yourself. There's loads of ways to make [31:55] other people submit themselves to you [31:59] >> and that would be considered [32:00] >> that is those are expressions of more [32:03] covert [32:03] >> covert. It's not like this doineering [32:08] people from the top and you can control [32:10] people from underneath. [32:11] >> Yes. [32:12] >> You know, it's a I think that there is a [32:15] a certain profile at this point of when [32:17] we say narcissist, everybody has five or [32:19] six associations that are quite similar. [32:21] And I this is really a whole other [32:24] conversation. But um what I will say is [32:27] that um yes I have sat with people who [32:30] have very little regard. People who [32:32] bring everything on to themselves. [32:34] People who see everything as a [32:36] reflection of themselves. People who are [32:39] charming. Charming when they need to [32:41] seduce you. And then once they you they [32:43] think they have you. They turn and they [32:46] have they go into the next people who [32:48] they need to charm. But those that they [32:50] have already recruited are disregarded [32:52] and discarded. So those [32:55] >> they got the most out of them already. [32:56] Yeah. [32:57] >> You know people who can lie [32:59] pathologically to you, people who have [33:00] very little empathy for what is [33:02] happening. So there is a cluster of [33:05] things but I think for me I tend to look [33:08] at behaviors and I tend to look at [33:11] interactions because I'm a relational [33:14] >> therapist and I'm a systemsoriented [33:16] therapist. And so I less spend my time [33:19] labeling a personality. [33:22] >> I that I I think it's useful on [33:25] occasion, but it is not my primary [33:28] vocabulary. [33:29] >> Yeah. [33:30] >> Um but she's very very eloquent about [33:33] it. [33:34] >> Yes. Yes. We'll have to have you back on [33:35] to do a whole twohour conversation on [33:38] that another time. There's a lot to [33:39] that. [33:40] >> It's really I I do not want to talk [33:42] about complex topics [33:44] >> in a short amount of time. [33:46] because it doesn't do them justice and I [33:48] don't like to reinforce [33:52] >> notions that have not been examined. [33:54] >> Absolutely. [33:55] >> But that are easy to grab on. [33:57] >> We'll have you back on for that. I'll do [33:58] one final card and then I think I've got [34:00] to make sure I'm respecting of the time [34:03] >> that you're going to touch on me. [34:05] >> Yep. What is that? [34:06] >> Okay. I'm my own worst enemy when [34:11] It's interesting. I [34:13] >> You know what? You want to give me a [34:14] different one? [34:15] >> Yes. [34:15] >> Okay. [34:16] >> I want to give you this. [34:17] >> Okay. [34:17] >> Because because of what happened just a [34:19] few minutes before. [34:20] >> Last time I cried was I mean yesterday, [34:24] you know, in terms of my father just [34:27] died two months ago. And so I've been [34:28] crying a lot, you know, every couple of [34:31] days. hear a song that really connects [34:34] me to a memory to him and to the whole [34:39] it was a sad experience because he got [34:43] into a car accident 17 years ago had a [34:46] severe brain trauma was in a coma for 3 [34:49] months then he woke up in a different [34:51] country in New Zealand at the time I was [34:53] in college then he came back and it was [34:57] like my dad was physically here but [34:58] emotionally mentally and spiritually not [35:01] Ambiguous loss. [35:02] >> Yes, [35:03] >> this is it. [35:04] >> I never was able to fully grieve. [35:06] >> That's ambiguous loss. [35:07] >> My father, he was physically here, but [35:09] the [35:10] >> same person [35:11] >> and every interaction I had with him [35:15] was reminding me of the loss was I'm [35:19] grateful he's here and it's great to [35:21] experience some time with him. [35:23] >> But every time I go and say hello, he [35:25] says, [35:27] "Lewis, right? [35:29] Didn't you didn't you used to play [35:31] where' you what sport did you play [35:32] growing up? Where did you go to school [35:34] again? So he could have a conversation [35:36] with you and speak conversationally. [35:40] But it was the same story over and over [35:42] again of needing to remind my father [35:44] from [35:44] >> 17 years [35:45] >> for 17 years of the memory loss that he [35:47] had. [35:48] >> Show him photos of him with me taking [35:50] photos of me playing sports. The second [35:52] half of my life with him was beautiful. [35:54] He showed up. He transformed. He [35:57] overcame a lot of the the anger and [35:59] resentment he had. Um, and I had a two [36:02] different lives with him. When I was 13 [36:05] before I had a some love, some scary [36:09] with him. Then after 13, it was like [36:11] this incredible friendship. So, it's [36:13] like I lost my dad, [36:16] >> but he was physically here. And every [36:17] year there was some type of health [36:20] scare. He had a couple strokes, a heart [36:22] attack. He had multiple surgeries from [36:24] the the accident. just the complications [36:26] from the accident. [36:29] And so every year I didn't know if he [36:30] was going to survive or not. And I it [36:33] was always when is it going to happen [36:34] this year? Okay, he's in the hospital [36:36] now. Is he going to make it? Do I need [36:37] to be there in this 17-year cycle of [36:42] learning to accept something and doing [36:45] my best to be okay with it and and [36:47] accepting and loving where it's at, you [36:50] know? So for me it was 17 years of of I [36:53] want to say numbing but it was [36:55] acceptance and just like managing it the [36:57] best I could. And then when he passed in [37:00] February a couple months ago it was [37:03] man just full circle kind of like going [37:05] back 17 years ago and reliving that and [37:08] then reliving my whole childhood and [37:11] allowing myself to be uh to have a full [37:14] range of emotions. And I think it's [37:17] beautiful because [37:18] >> do you feel like this time actually you [37:20] can fully grieve? [37:21] >> I feel like I can [37:22] >> because it's see this is ambiguous loss [37:24] what you just described. Can't grieve, [37:26] can't mourn because he's there but he's [37:28] not there. [37:29] >> Yeah. And it was [37:30] >> this one gives it [37:32] >> now you can experience the full range. [37:34] >> Absolutely. I didn't feel like I could. [37:35] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [37:36] >> And and I feel like I have a a more [37:38] spiritual connection to him now than in [37:40] the last 17 years. You know, every night [37:42] I'm connecting with him in my own way [37:45] and my little meditation room and you [37:48] know, throughout every the days there [37:50] are things that come up where I I feel [37:52] the the spiritual presence and it's it's [37:54] a beautiful [37:56] sad, it's beautiful, it's emotional, [37:58] it's it's a wide range of emotions and [38:00] you know, there's a lot of sadness I [38:01] have because I wish it wasn't that way. [38:03] But I also [38:05] >> relief. I have some relief and I'm also [38:09] doing doing my best to create meaning [38:11] from the whole thing so that it's not [38:14] just this thing I'm frustrated with [38:15] constantly but like you know what I [38:17] probably wouldn't be doing this without [38:19] that pain and sadness and loss. I [38:22] wouldn't be a curious hungry I wouldn't [38:24] have been as resourceful if I had him [38:26] there. So [38:29] yeah, I mean I've been crying a lot. [38:31] Been crying a lot and um it's been [38:34] beautiful to have [38:36] uh a safe environment in my relationship [38:39] with someone who allows that because I [38:42] think that's hard for some people to [38:44] allow that especially for men to be able [38:45] to express their full range of emotions [38:48] and for that their partner to feel safe [38:50] with that too. So I feel very grateful. [38:53] Um but absolutely it's [38:55] >> absolutely [38:56] >> it's not it's not hasn't been fun but [38:58] it's also been [39:00] >> uh allowing me to have like peace with [39:02] >> an amazing thing that if you ask people [39:04] when's the last time you laughed [39:07] nobody has to justify laughing [39:10] >> but crying [39:11] >> but crying people have to justify it [39:14] they have to [39:15] >> interesting you asked that [39:16] >> I mean it is the absolute natural [39:19] emotion to feel in sadness in grief in [39:21] loss Whatever. Man, woman, they, them, [39:25] whoever. [39:26] >> I had a woman on two days ago who who [39:30] hasn't cried in years. And I had a man [39:32] on yesterday who hasn't cried in, I [39:34] think, 10 or 12 years. [39:37] >> And it's interesting. It's like there's [39:39] something there, I think, to be able to [39:40] have the full range. Not saying you need [39:42] to cry all day long or something, but of [39:44] allowing yourselves to feel. But, um, [39:47] that's probably for a whole another [39:48] conversation. So, [39:49] >> I mean, I would say that it's hard for [39:51] people [39:52] to really fully say yes if you can't [39:55] fully say no. [39:57] >> And it is hard for people to fully laugh [40:00] if you can't also cry. [40:03] >> It's it if something is funny, you [40:05] automatically do this. If something is [40:08] sad, the fact that you stay like that [40:11] affectless or that you repress it or [40:14] that you hold it in or that you don't [40:16] even notice it or that the thing is [40:18] coming down your face and you don't even [40:19] realize. I've had people tear in my [40:22] office while they say, "I never cry." [40:25] >> What does that What does that mean when [40:28] someone is isn't able to fully laugh or [40:30] fully cry? [40:31] >> What would it be like if a person comes [40:33] into this world and doesn't scream? I [40:35] mean, if a baby doesn't scream when they [40:37] come out, you think they're death at [40:38] birth? [40:40] >> What is it like when people make love [40:41] and make no noise? When it's impossible. [40:44] I mean, you're a sports person. You know [40:46] that if you lift something, you make [40:47] noise. You grunt here. You know, the [40:50] voice is, you know, it's just what does [40:52] it mean when this whole thing is closed [40:54] off. [40:55] >> There's something inside that's missing [40:57] or dead or trapped [40:58] >> or trapped [40:59] >> or was shoved down or can't come out or [41:03] but for sure it is a blockage. [41:05] >> Next, we have the family therapist [41:07] expert Jerry Wise who shares a different [41:10] type of dynamic because sometimes the [41:13] narcissism isn't in your partner, it's [41:16] in your history. It's the people who [41:18] raised you. And he's going to explain [41:20] how to heal that childhood trauma. Right [41:23] now, [41:24] >> people will always ask me, "Am I a [41:26] narcissist?" [41:28] And I'll go, "Do you ever feel guilty?" [41:31] >> Oh, yeah. All the time. Then you're not. [41:35] >> You're just dysfunctional. [41:36] >> You're just dysfunctional. No. Right. A [41:38] narcissist is not going to feel that [41:41] guilt. They don't feel What have they [41:43] done wrong? They're always right. So [41:47] that why would I feel guilt about [41:49] anything or shame? So if if you felt [41:54] that you're probably less likely to be a [41:56] narcissist [41:57] >> if you but a parent can be a [41:59] narcissistic parent and they don't they [42:02] can abuse you, they can criticize you. [42:04] They can but they'll never go oh that my [42:07] bad. [42:08] >> They won't apologize do that. Why would [42:10] they apologize? [42:12] >> You made them do it. you made them do it [42:15] or they uh did it for your good. [42:20] >> So why would I ever need to say I'm [42:23] sorry? There's no need to say I'm sorry. [42:26] >> What's the worst thing a parent could do [42:28] then to their kids over and over again [42:31] that will almost surely make them [42:34] dysfunctional as an adult? Is it never [42:36] apologizing to them when you know they [42:39] >> that that's too symptomatic? That's too [42:43] superficial. [42:44] >> Uhhuh. [42:45] >> The thing that's going to make them more [42:48] dysfunctional as an adult [42:51] is to not break their own cycle from [42:55] their own past, [42:57] bringing that cycle to their current [43:00] nuclear family [43:03] and not knowing it. So bringing the [43:06] generational trauma onward [43:08] >> and the generational programming that [43:10] and the generational emotional wifi [43:14] >> that's been going on and they just bring [43:16] that right into here. That's going to [43:18] mess them up more than ever. Now does [43:21] abuse and narcissistic meanness and do [43:25] all those things affect the kid? Of [43:26] course it does. [43:27] >> Screaming and all this stuff. Yeah, [43:29] >> exactly. Of course it's going to. But [43:31] it's not the screaming that's the [43:34] underlying problem [43:35] >> that's a symptom of [43:36] >> that's a symptom of how the family has [43:38] been dysfunctional and toxic and and it [43:42] can come out in different ways. [43:44] Narcissism, alcoholism, abuse, [43:47] workcoholism, sex addiction. It can come [43:50] out in gambling and all kinds of [43:52] symptomatic ways. But underneath all of [43:55] that is an enshment [43:59] to a family [44:02] whose trance has never been broken. [44:04] >> Wow. The origin family. [44:06] >> The origin family. It's never been [44:09] broken. And now you're just living it [44:11] out. Only John's living it out that way. [44:13] Mary's living it out that way. But it [44:16] that's the underlying important dynamic. [44:19] And if we don't break the trance of the [44:21] family, the origin family of ours, if we [44:24] don't break that trance, then we're just [44:26] going to relive that pattern in our [44:28] adult relationships as well [44:29] >> in some way. And it may not even look [44:32] like the way mom and dad did it, but the [44:35] pattern's still there. So people will [44:37] go, "Well, I'm not like my parents." Oh, [44:40] oh, hold on just a second. Let me ask [44:42] you, but what you're doing is the same [44:45] theme and it has origins in your family [44:48] of origin. You may have chosen the [44:50] opposite, but o [44:54] 180 degrees from unhealthy is unhealthy. [44:59] So people will go, "Oh, well, I'm all [45:01] the way over here. Oh, now you're just a [45:03] class B unhealthy rather than a class A [45:06] unhealthy person. And you feel superior [45:09] over them because you're over here, [45:11] >> right? [45:11] >> You haven't broken the cycle. You're [45:13] living the pendulum life. [45:15] >> Yeah. I'm not screaming at my partner. [45:17] >> I'm not screaming at my partner like [45:19] they did, [45:19] >> but I'm controlling. [45:20] >> But I'm being controlling. And I still [45:22] may be self-absorbed or judgmental or [45:26] any number of other kinds of things. [45:28] >> Interesting. Here's the real question [45:31] then. [45:32] If we start to think about, oh, maybe my [45:35] parents had some narcissistic tendencies [45:38] and I'm starting to think about it and [45:40] I'm starting to evaluate my childhood [45:42] and realize, oh, I thought this was just [45:43] normal because this is the only thing I [45:45] knew. [45:46] >> How many families did we grow up in? [45:47] >> Yeah. Right. And it wasn't as bad as [45:49] that family, so I got to be grateful for [45:51] this. [45:51] >> Yeah. And we should [45:52] >> and my parents were loving at times and [45:56] they gave us and they were doing the [45:57] best they could. So that I can't think [45:59] of them as narcissistic, but we start to [46:00] internalize that. What are the warning [46:02] signs then that show up in adult [46:05] children of narcissistic parents? [46:07] >> Let's then take a look at that. [46:12] Mom and dad or whoever was narcissistic, [46:15] hypercritical and judgmental. [46:19] Now I then grow up and say, "I'm not [46:22] going to be like that." [46:24] But what am I to myself? [46:27] Hyperritical and judgmental. So, an [46:31] adult child of a narcissistic family [46:33] often will have [46:36] unbounded [46:38] guilt, shame, criticalness, [46:40] hyperriticalness, [46:42] uh very hard on themselves. So, they [46:44] just take the voice from here and just [46:47] live it inside themselves. [46:49] >> Really, [46:50] >> everything is that way. Uh people go, [46:53] "Oh, well, they they screamed all the [46:55] time." So many times I've said, "So how [46:58] many times have you internally screamed [47:00] at yourself?" [47:02] I don't scream at other people. I didn't [47:04] say other people. I said, "You, [47:07] oh well, yeah, I can be pretty nasty to [47:10] me. You know, you stupid." [47:14] And um I said, "You're just reliving [47:17] this only in a different way." Uh and so [47:21] it's all embryionic in the family. So [47:25] everything is happening out here the [47:28] problem and that's what I think that's [47:31] why I use the term the problem is the [47:33] solution is not near the problem also [47:38] the problem may not be near the symptom [47:43] here I am criticizing myself and and [47:47] cutting myself down internally and [47:49] hating myself and narcissists adult [47:52] children narcissists can definitely hate [47:54] themselves because they've been judged [47:56] and criticized and, you know, [47:59] emotionally hurt so many different ways, [48:02] shamed. And so this is what they're [48:04] doing out here. And they're now doing [48:06] this as adults to themselves internally [48:09] and going, "Well, what's the solution?" [48:13] And many will go, "Don't look at any of [48:15] that. Let's just try to [48:18] be nicer to yourself." which is not bad [48:22] advice, but it's superficial advice and [48:26] it may not hold. And then you'll try it [48:29] and then give it up. And you'll try it [48:31] and give it up versus wait a minute. [48:34] Let's get mom and dad out of you. [48:36] >> Wow. [48:37] >> That's what we want to do because we And [48:40] do you recognize [48:42] that's not you? [48:45] When you are criticizing yourself that [48:47] way, you're going to be under the [48:50] hypnosis and the trance that this is me [48:53] doing it to me. And I'm and I go, "Let [48:56] me give you some good news. It's not you [48:58] doing it to you. It's your family still [49:01] doing it to you through you." [49:04] >> Wow. [49:05] >> There's a difference. And that's a huge [49:07] difference. And so as adult children, [49:12] what should we be thinking about if we [49:14] felt like we had a dysfunctional [49:16] childhood? Should we be thinking about [49:18] how do I get my myself to be [49:20] self-differentiated [49:22] from my parents and my family? How do I [49:25] block my family completely? How do I [49:28] heal the past? Like what should we be [49:30] thinking about as we come into awareness [49:32] as adult children of dysfunctional [49:34] childhoods or narcissistic parents? And [49:37] I think it's a great question. But your [49:40] question also has within it a certain [49:42] paradigm as all questions do. Every [49:46] question has the answer in it. [49:49] >> Every question that someone asks, the [49:51] answer is in their question. And so you [49:54] are asking about so do I separate myself [49:57] from my family? Do I you know and and [50:00] certainly if someone if families are [50:02] abusive and toxic and have no interest [50:05] in changing? No. Well, then we have to [50:07] look at some no contact or, you know, we [50:10] may need to go that far. But self- [50:13] differentiation, [50:15] what I tend to think when someone has a [50:17] family that's narcissistic, [50:20] does the person that I'm working with or [50:22] talking to or the the adult child of the [50:25] narcissist need greater [50:27] self-differentiation, [50:29] which is a an emotional state and a [50:33] maturity state, or do they need to [50:36] physically separate? [50:38] >> In this next section, we have Annie [50:40] Sarnlad. She is the master of micro [50:43] expressions. She'll show you the tiny [50:46] splitsecond signs that reveal a [50:48] narcissist's true intentions. How can [50:52] you know if someone has narcissistic [50:54] tendencies if you're going on a date or [50:57] if you've been in a relationship with [50:58] them for a long time? [50:59] >> Because they don't show me any kindness. [51:00] >> They don't show kindness. [51:02] >> They don't care when I get hurt. [51:04] Regardless of how I get hurt or [51:06] regardless of how somebody else gets [51:07] hurt, they don't show that [51:09] >> really. They don't. No, [51:12] >> they care more about themselves or they [51:14] just they just don't understand. [51:15] >> But I know narcissists that will [51:16] describe something that they've been [51:18] through that's painful and their chin [51:20] will be working overtime. [51:21] >> But for for someone else, they probably [51:23] won't have that. [51:24] >> No, cuz they don't care. [51:26] >> But how are they so good, I guess, at [51:29] captivating you to love them? [51:32] >> One, they they tend to over the Well, [51:34] the narcissists in my life tend to [51:35] overdo the eye contact. [51:37] >> So, they're very present and connected. [51:39] >> Yes. they they that the gaze is long. [51:42] Um, and then the other thing is that [51:44] they've learned almost mathematically [51:47] which phrases, which behaviors work. [51:51] >> So, I had somebody in my life um I won't [51:54] mention who it is, but it's uh it's a [51:56] family member of mine that I just lost [51:59] it on him. Um, we were living in Hong [52:01] Kong and he was yelling at a taxi driver [52:06] and we got out of the car and you the [52:08] taxi driver had made a wrong turn, you [52:10] know, even though the person that I was [52:12] with had said, you know, turn to the [52:14] right the made a mistake [52:16] >> and he just lost it on this taxi driver [52:18] and I um I was really angry afterwards. [52:22] I said, "Do you understand that this is [52:24] somebody who's trying to support his [52:25] family, working really long hours? Like, [52:27] this is, you know, a decent human making [52:29] a an honorable living, working hard, and [52:32] probably has a lot of people depending [52:34] on them. And you don't get to yell at [52:38] somebody for making a mistake. We all [52:40] make mistakes." Next night, we were out [52:43] and this person was trying to pick up [52:44] girls, puffed out his chest and said, [52:48] "I'm the kind of guy who's nice to taxi [52:50] drivers." No. [52:53] >> Wow. The next day, jeez. [52:56] >> I was like, this is the weirdest [52:59] surreal experience. But it was it it [53:02] really clicked for me this narcissistic [53:05] behavior. And I knew that this was a [53:06] narcissist. This idea of, oh, there's a [53:11] puzzle piece and a tool that I can use [53:13] to impress other people. And it was just [53:16] so [53:18] artificial and strange. But people find [53:21] a way to get their needs met. We we [53:25] humans tend to be really good at that. [53:27] And if something works for us, well, we [53:28] repeat that. We do more of that. [53:32] >> Yeah. We kind of store that in our [53:33] brain. This worked before, so let me [53:35] keep doing this thing. [53:36] >> That whole love bombing and the whole [53:38] like I will tell you and the narcissists [53:40] that have ever tried to date me, I call [53:43] them parrots. um they they try to figure [53:46] out what what is your thing. So I had a [53:49] guy not that long ago. I've actually [53:51] written about that that was telling me, [53:53] you know, I've been obsessed with micro [53:54] expressions for years because if you [53:56] can't really connect with people, I [53:57] mean, he'd seen me speak a couple of [53:59] times and he was just pulling all this [54:02] stuff and I was lonely and newly [54:04] divorced and I almost fell for it, you [54:07] know, even with my stuff because he was [54:09] so good at the [54:11] >> speaking to your heart and to like your [54:13] things. And he wasn't doing it face to [54:15] face. He was doing it via text. And I [54:17] kept saying, "Well, let's just jump on a [54:19] phone call." No, no, no. Didn't want to [54:21] even jump on the phone because he knows [54:22] that I can do voice stuff. [54:24] >> Wow. [54:26] >> No FaceTime. Yeah. FaceTime. [54:28] >> Didn't want to do the FaceTime. Yeah. [54:29] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [54:30] >> So, can you personally tell the [54:33] difference between someone who's maybe a [54:37] psychopath, a narcissist, and a genius? [54:41] Can you tell the difference based on and [54:43] and are there tendencies of all three? I [54:45] guess [54:49] >> that's a really good question. Um, [54:53] you can be a genius and also be kind, [54:56] >> right? That doesn't nec you can be a [54:58] narcissist and a genius for sure. [55:01] >> Um, but the genius isn't necessarily [55:05] overlapping the other ones. The there [55:07] are a couple pieces that I look for. [55:10] We look for what my kids call crazy [55:11] eyes. So remember I talked about we pull [55:14] our upper eyelids way back, you know, we [55:16] do this, right? So that's a piece of [55:18] fear. So if you um if I walk into a room [55:22] and I see somebody, you know, maybe [55:24] standing with a gun behind you or like [55:26] pulling out a you my upper eyelids are [55:28] going to going to pull way back. That [55:32] fits, right? If I'm in a scary [55:35] situation, something scares me or [55:36] somebody jumps out or there's a loud [55:37] noise, I'm going to pull my upper [55:39] eyelids back and and that matches. Yeah. [55:42] Okay. But that matches, but we don't [55:43] ever in fear. The only time we will pull [55:45] our upper eyelids back and hold them is [55:47] roller coaster haunted house, you know, [55:50] terror, [55:51] >> loud noise. Yeah. [55:52] >> We never hold our upper eyelids pulled [55:54] way back except when we're nuts. [55:57] >> When you're a social a psychopath, you [55:59] just like that all the time. [56:01] >> Hitler. [56:03] >> Really? I'm going to get in so much [56:04] trouble for this. Elizabeth Holmes. [56:06] >> Oh, wow. [56:08] >> Yeah. See, your face immediately goes to [56:10] like there's a lot of people in the [56:12] public eye. The school shooters, if you [56:14] if you look at the pictures of them, [56:16] they have their eyes like that. They [56:17] always like pull they're showing their [56:19] scara and there's something about mental [56:21] instability and volatility and I'm not [56:25] safe that and I don't know what it is. [56:28] And I've done a lot of research, just my [56:30] own private research on that, but but I [56:32] almost always find that somebody who's [56:34] committed a heinous crime and a really [56:37] violent crime, they're all almost always [56:40] like I don't know 20 30% of their [56:42] pictures that you can find up on the [56:43] blind where they're where they're [56:44] holding. [56:46] >> That's interesting. [56:47] >> Okay, so watch the facial expression of [56:48] fear, the full facial expression of fear [56:50] and it like makes me shiver. Right. [56:52] Watch when I take the bottom half of my [56:54] face and turn it into joy or arousal or [56:58] cheerfulness. [57:00] >> That is weird. [57:01] >> It's super creepy and it like sends all [57:03] these itchy signals to my brain, but [57:06] it's it's out of context. It doesn't [57:08] match. And your whole body, your whole [57:11] nervous system knows that when you see [57:12] it. When I give you the vocabulary to [57:16] pull this and dissect it, you're going, [57:17] "Oh my god, I just talked about this [57:19] thing and that person showed crazy [57:20] eyes." is like almost like they were [57:23] there's horror and arousal at the same. [57:24] There should not. That's the Joker's [57:26] face from Batman. The arousal in the [57:28] horror. The joy in the horror. That's [57:30] terrible. [57:31] >> The joy in the horror, [57:33] >> right? [57:33] >> That's something to watch. [57:34] >> That is something to watch out for. [57:36] >> Now, are people, you know, I guess are [57:39] psychopaths. Are they more like that all [57:40] the time or is that only sometimes? [57:43] >> They seem to show it a lot. [57:44] >> Right. Right. And I and the I don't [57:46] really it's almost like I'm not all the [57:48] way to the finish line with that [57:50] research. [57:51] >> I just know [57:52] >> something seems inauthentic though. [57:54] >> Something's inauthentic. And you can [57:55] have somebody who is not a bad person [57:58] but who is going through a period of [58:01] severe trauma and mental instability [58:03] also have that sort of constant deer in [58:05] the headlight look. So you have to be [58:07] careful. All of these facial expressions [58:09] you have to put them in context. [58:10] >> You need context. And it's not a like [58:12] you see this in somebody, they're [58:14] automatically a bad or a dangerous [58:15] person, but they are more likely in my [58:19] experience to [58:22] be violent against others or themselves. [58:24] You sometimes see that facial expression [58:26] before somebody takes their own life. [58:28] >> Yeah. [58:28] >> Wow. [58:30] >> So, there's something um there's some, [58:32] you know, serious emotional health issue [58:36] >> with a with a psychopath essentially. [58:38] Yeah. [58:38] >> Yeah. And Yeah. [58:39] >> And finally, my friend Dr. John Deloney. [58:42] This is a big one. He's going to help [58:43] you look in the mirror. He'll show you [58:46] how to make sure you don't fall into [58:49] your own narcissistic tendencies that [58:51] all of us might have from time to time. [58:54] There seems to be a trend of narcissism, [58:57] self-interest, [58:59] and my feelings and my beliefs are the [59:02] things that matter most. So, you need to [59:04] change, this system need to change, [59:06] everything needs to change to fit my [59:08] feelings and protect my feelings. [59:10] Why do you think that is happening more? [59:12] So, [59:13] >> we don't have we we've clipped the [59:14] strings. Esther talks eloquently about [59:16] this. We've clipped all of the the [59:19] common strings that bind us together [59:21] with a common story [59:23] for however long you think the ear how [59:27] however long you think the earth has [59:28] been around. [59:30] our relationship to our gods told us [59:33] what we're going to wear, what your role [59:34] is, what whose job is what job, what [59:38] what our values are, what you do and [59:39] don't do. There's been tons of [59:40] oppression. I'm not saying it's all [59:41] great. I'm just saying that's the way it [59:42] worked. And then we cut all the strings. [59:45] None of that's real, guys. If it can't [59:47] be randomized control, double blind [59:50] studied, it's not real. It doesn't [59:52] exist. And so as beings created to [59:56] worship, whether you're an atheist or [59:58] not, as beings created to be in service [60:01] of something, if there's nothing to be [60:03] in service of other than the self, [60:05] >> then you are the the supreme ruler of [60:08] your world. You're the universe. You're [60:10] Pharaoh. You will bow before me. [60:13] >> And you have a whole generation of [60:15] people saying, "No, you bow before me. [60:16] No, no, you bow before me." Then you get [60:18] chaos, which is what we have. Instead of [60:20] saying, "What if we all just went to the [60:22] moon? Can we figure that out? All right, [60:23] let's do that. Let's go to the moon. [60:25] >> And what if we said, "How can I love you [60:28] today?" instead of, "This is just how [60:31] I'm wired. I give answers." [60:34] >> One of those ways you're going to end up [60:35] sleeping outside by yourself. One of [60:37] those ways creates warmth in your home, [60:40] >> right? And so, what do you want? Like, [60:41] what do you want this thing to feel [60:42] like? What are you doing? Right? And I [60:44] often ask this question. Does that feel [60:47] good? like like great quippy response [60:50] like great grenade sarcasm you know [60:53] cynicism good job that feel good yeah [60:57] did it is that what you're going for [60:59] today you feel powerful for a minute [61:00] like what what are you what are we doing [61:03] >> or do you want to be connected and you [61:04] want to be whole [61:04] >> yes [61:05] >> you get to pick man [61:06] >> connection wholeness peace I I believe [61:10] comes from service and I I believe first [61:13] comes from service to [61:15] self in creating wholeness [61:17] not neglecting self and being empty all [61:20] the time and just only serving others [61:22] and and you know deflecting all of your [61:25] needs to feeling peaceful and whole and [61:28] healthy, [61:29] >> right? [61:29] >> But then in that journey, giving to [61:32] others, helping others, being of [61:34] service, contributing to something [61:35] greater than self, a mission, a vision, [61:37] a family, a community, a goal, you know, [61:39] going to the moon, whatever it is, [61:41] believing in something and others and [61:44] giving to them. [61:45] >> Yeah. And it's something for me that has [61:48] really flipped in the last 10 years. 10 [61:50] years ago, prior to 10 years ago, I was [61:53] more about how do I look good? How do I [61:55] win? How do I succeed? How do I, you [61:57] know, be right? [61:58] >> Yeah. [61:59] >> As much as possible. And it was very [62:00] unconscious. It wasn't like [62:02] >> I was conscious of it. It was just your [62:04] body playing defense. And it was a [62:06] survival mechanism, right? It was like I [62:08] need to win. I need to be right. I need [62:10] to make more. I need to look good. I [62:12] need to have this image and ego, you [62:15] know, shape the way I want it. Um, and I [62:18] just realized that wasn't a happy life [62:20] for me. Maybe maybe some moments that [62:23] seemed happy, but it wasn't really [62:24] fulfilling until I said, [62:27] >> "It's got to be collaboration over [62:28] competition." [62:30] >> You know, I can still compete in certain [62:32] ways, but it can't be for someone to be [62:34] less than. [62:35] >> Yeah. [62:36] >> It needs to be for me to compete to get [62:37] better. [62:38] >> Yeah. [62:38] >> And serve better. [62:40] >> Yeah. Um, but collaboration over [62:42] competition, service over self, [62:46] that is what's brought me a lot more [62:47] fulfillment. It doesn't mean it's always [62:49] easy. There's challenges, but it's [62:51] brought me much more meaning and [62:53] fulfillment. [62:55] >> What do you think is the biggest cause [62:56] of pain in relationships today? [63:00] Me over us. [63:01] >> Really? [63:02] >> Yeah. Me over us. How I feel right now [63:04] or how you made me feel. not my body [63:08] responded when you did this. I need to [63:10] deal with that or I've got some hard [63:12] choices to make. You did it. You did it. [63:14] It's me over us. I think um and this [63:17] this would go back to the question you [63:18] asked earlier. Um it was a watershed [63:21] moment when I heard Estelle Pearl talk [63:23] about um the 9/11 towers um analogy. She [63:28] was talking to a couple who had [63:30] experienced infidelity and she said one [63:33] of the greatest challenges couples [63:34] experience is they want to I just want [63:37] to get back to the way things were. [63:39] >> And she likened it to you couldn't go on [63:42] September 12th and sweep up all that [63:44] dust and glass and steel and rebuild [63:46] those towers with that stuff. They fell. [63:48] >> Wow. [63:48] >> You have two choices. You can walk away [63:51] and let nature take it back over and it [63:53] will or you can hire some experts. You [63:55] can excavate that. You can design, [63:57] build, grieve, come together and build [64:00] something beautiful, a nod to the past, [64:04] but something going this way that's [64:06] hopefully stronger. Right? Those are [64:08] your two choices. But you, what you had [64:10] is over. And so I've taken that into my [64:13] own home. My wife and I right now, we've [64:16] never been parents of an eighth grader [64:18] and a second grader. This is a new [64:20] marriage. And so we're going to build [64:21] something new. It'll have a lot of the [64:23] features of the old one, but this is new [64:26] because eighth graders stay out later [64:27] than second graders, right? We're used [64:29] to going to bed at 9:00. We ain't doing [64:32] that anymore cuz I got to pick him up, [64:33] right? So, we have a new marriage. And [64:35] if you keep saying, "I just want to get [64:36] back to the way it was. I just want to [64:37] get back." Um, you end up dragging each [64:40] other back. And so, if we put We said I [64:43] do, then us becomes number one. [64:48] >> Wow. And that's a that's not a popular [64:50] thing, but I know I got to exercise. I [64:52] got to eat right. I got to get some [64:54] sleep so that I can show up for us, [64:55] right? So, it sounds self- serving, but [64:57] it's not. I got to do these things so I [64:58] can be whole so I can show up for what [65:00] we're building new. [65:02] >> On your on your show, uh, the Dr. John [65:05] Deloney Show, you have a lot of call-in [65:08] aspects as well where people are calling [65:10] you. Yeah. [65:11] >> You're you're coaching, they're telling [65:12] you their challenges. You've been doing [65:14] this for the last few years now. Um, [65:17] what is the the big reasons for struggle [65:20] in relationships or causes of divorce [65:23] that you're seeing lately? I know kind [65:25] of historically what that is. Is it more [65:27] financial burden? Is it more um is there [65:31] infidelity or people wanting more to [65:33] like sneak around? Is it a lack of [65:36] intimacy? Is it family dynamics of the [65:40] other families? What is the main cause [65:42] of friction in relationships or [65:45] marriages today? [65:47] >> I think if I'm looking at symptoms, it's [65:48] going to be money and infidelity. [65:50] Really, [65:50] >> some scale of infidelity. Yeah. Some [65:53] version of [65:54] >> And people are calling in and telling [65:56] you about this stuff. [65:57] >> Wild stuff. Yeah. Um underneath it, I [66:00] think it's a broader picture. Terry Real [66:02] talks about this beautifully. Um the [66:04] world changed and [66:08] men um just want things to go back to [66:10] the way they were and women want men to [66:13] do new things without new a new set of [66:16] tool. [66:17] >> I hope this master class didn't just [66:19] give you information. I hope it gave you [66:22] a sense of clarity and a sense of peace [66:24] because understanding these narcissistic [66:26] patterns is a huge first step. But the [66:30] real goal is not just about identifying [66:32] the toxic people. It's about reclaiming [66:35] your own power, your own self-rust, your [66:38] own worth. Healing from the past is the [66:41] only way to rebuild a great future. [66:44] Because you can't run a worldclass race [66:47] if you're still carrying the weight of [66:49] someone else's expectations. You can't [66:52] experience true intimacy if you're still [66:54] living in a state of hyper vigilance. [66:57] And you deserve a life where you feel [66:59] safe in your own skin, in your own heart [67:02] and body. You deserve the relationships [67:06] that fuel you, not drain you. Your [67:10] healing is the greatest gift that you [67:12] can give yourself and to the world. Your [67:15] past only has as much power as you give [67:18] it. So today, we are here to take that [67:21] power back. Today, you choose a higher [67:24] standard for your life. And if this was [67:26] something that supported you today, [67:28] please comment below what your biggest [67:30] moment was from all of these great [67:33] experts. Share it in the comment below [67:35] and let me know. Go ahead and like this [67:37] video, share with a friend, and I'd love [67:39] to know what is the one boundary that [67:40] you're going to set starting right now [67:43] in your life to ensure this doesn't [67:45] happen in the future. I read a lot of [67:47] these comments and they inspire me. [67:49] Thank you so much for being here. Thank [67:51] you for constantly choosing your own [67:52] personal growth. And as always, I want [67:54] to remind you that you are loved, you [67:56] are worthy, and you matter. If you want [67:59] to stop being in relationships that you [68:01] feel like you're failing in and they [68:03] aren't making you happy, then you need [68:05] to stop repeating the same patterns that [68:07] you've always repeated. And you need to [68:09] learn how to become the best partner for [68:12] someone and also learn how to attract [68:14] the right type of partner. ## Highlights - vulnerable narcissist. This is probably to me the most compelling form of narcissism because this is where you see the sulleness, the petulence, the passive aggression, the chronic victimhood, the social anxiety, the failure to launch. These are people who live in fantasies of the great things they're going to do, but they never do them. >> Wow. >> The grandiose people actually often do get them done. They will talk the big game and they'll kind of do the big game. >> So the vulnerable doesn't mean they're actually intimate and vulnerable with you. It means that they ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjb9tej0argvmz80mjr91vgd)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - people? So, like if I was >> public facing, you look like the best thing ever, but behind the scenes. >> Exactly. So you're mean to your partner. You're mean to your family. You're mean to your people who work. >> You're inconsistent. >> You're Well, you're you're consistent. You're consistently mean to the people who are behind the curtain. You're consistently sort of putting on a show in front of the curtain. >> Yeah. Yeah. But you're not consistent on both ways. No. And that's like service mindset. Okay. Comm. >> No. Communal. And then there's the self-righteous narcissist. And the self-righteous narcissist is judgmental, moralistic, rigid. They're often funky ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjb9tejfvjagzsga4gv6y0q4)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - >> a lack of empathy. >> It's a lack of empathy, but it's a lack of like for example, a malignant or a grandiose narcissist might actually get mad at someone like, "Oh my gosh, like why do you keep talking to me?" And people in relationships, neglectful narcissists will say, "I'll take it cuz at least that person was listening." But people in these relationships will literally feel like they're losing their minds because the person with them is literally not noticing unless they need something from you. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjb9tek8wv086t7jjhmpgekm)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - had the piece of information or something they needed, I existed. So, you feel like a really neglected personal assistant. >> Oh my gosh. >> In this next section, we are speaking with behavior expert Vanessa Van Edwards. She's going to show the physical signs, the body language that tells you exactly who you're dealing with. >> Can you talk to me the difference between charisma and narcissism? >> Mhm. >> And how can you spot when someone is actually warm and caring and charismatic? ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjb9temhe98n9fg4whnmqg89)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - >> You have a colleague or co-orker or family member >> that you don't like, right? And you have to break out the fake warmth cues. Oh, hi. How are you? >> Right? And so what do we do? We fake smile, right? So, oh, it's so good to see you. Mhm. Doesn't look like it, right? Or we say, "Oh, yeah. So, how Oh, that sounds good. Congratulations, >> right? >> You know, your LA roots are coming back to you." >> And Right. That's why toxic people challenge us is because they come into ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjb9tepygcqj84njkfd8xj1f)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - narcissist somebody is depressed somebody's >> you know I think that there are there's more to us than just that, >> right? >> But you see a lot of people with narcissistic tendencies and you see a lot of people who not not just this exhibiting it with manifest narcissism, but there's a whole other form of narcissism that is called covert narcissism which we talk about much less because we don't name it in those ways. >> What is the difference? >> That is a long conversation. It's really ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjb9tezqwkfgnwybbg52a343)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - but for sure it is a blockage. >> Next, we have the family therapist expert Jerry Wise who shares a different type of dynamic because sometimes the narcissism isn't in your partner, it's in your history. It's the people who raised you. And he's going to explain how to heal that childhood trauma. Right now, >> people will always ask me, "Am I a narcissist?" And I'll go, "Do you ever feel guilty?" ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjb9tf6pjvn363mskqh6gh47)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - internalize that. What are the warning signs then that show up in adult children of narcissistic parents? >> Let's then take a look at that. Mom and dad or whoever was narcissistic, hypercritical and judgmental. Now I then grow up and say, "I'm not going to be like that." But what am I to myself? Hyperritical and judgmental. So, an ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjb9tfmxfms433sqadmvy8ja)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - adult child of a narcissistic family often will have unbounded guilt, shame, criticalness, hyperriticalness, uh very hard on themselves. So, they just take the voice from here and just live it inside themselves. >> Really, >> everything is that way. Uh people go, "Oh, well, they they screamed all the time." So many times I've said, "So how many times have you internally screamed ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjb9tg45p8qznyc5zxsgakwv)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - >> One, they they tend to over the Well, the narcissists in my life tend to overdo the eye contact. >> So, they're very present and connected. >> Yes. they they that the gaze is long. Um, and then the other thing is that they've learned almost mathematically which phrases, which behaviors work. >> So, I had somebody in my life um I won't mention who it is, but it's uh it's a family member of mine that I just lost it on him. Um, we were living in Hong ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjb9tggawze6w1dt0xtyx5dz)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted