PHP Alive and Kicking Episode 23 Native PHP

PHP Alive and Kicking: Episode 23 Native PHP ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/CEYeTa_9qhY/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [PHP Alive and Kicking: Episode 23 Native PHP](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEYeTa_9qhY) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [native-php, mobile-development, laravel, plugins, php-mobile] > author: PHP Architect > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEYeTa_9qhY > date created: 2024-12-19 14:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: PHP Alive And Kicking: Episode 23 Native PHP >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Test Native PHP Jump app for QR-based mobile development — immediate #mobile-development - [H2] Explore Native PHP plugin marketplace for project needs — week 2 #plugins - [H3] Consider attending "The Vibes" day-three event at Laracon US — March deadline #events ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Native PHP](https://nativephp.com) - [PHP Architect Magazine](https://www.phparch.com) ## 📝 Summary - Native PHP announced going free and open source for mobile development - Major shift from paid licensing to plugin-based revenue model - New tools: Jump app for instant mobile testing and Mimi for AI-powered development environment - Plugin marketplace launched with free core plugins and premium options - Revenue model now relies on Bifrost deployment service and premium plugins ## 📖 Main Content Shane and Simon from Native PHP discuss their major announcement making Native PHP for mobile development free and open source. This represents a significant shift from their previous paid licensing model. The decision wasn't easy - they describe it as an emotional roller coaster with concerns about sustainability since they're both working full-time on the project. The new plugin architecture solves two critical problems: app bloat from unused features and App Store rejections due to undeclared permissions. Instead of bundling everything into core, developers now composer-require only the plugins they need. Free plugins include camera, microphone, device info, and file handling, while premium plugins cover security, push notifications, and biometrics. Two new tools launched alongside the announcement: Jump allows instant mobile testing by scanning QR codes to deploy Laravel apps directly to phones, while Mimi provides an AI-powered development environment that requires zero local setup. Both integrate with their Bifrost deployment service, which remains their primary revenue source alongside premium plugins. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and sponsorship mentions - Key idea: PHP Alive and Kicking podcast focusing on cool PHP developments - Evidence: "This is a podcast that talks about all the cool stuff happening in PHP" #### ⏱️ [15:23](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=923) — [H1] Native PHP goes free and open source - Key idea: Major announcement that Native PHP for mobile is now completely free - Evidence: "Native PHP for mobile now is free and open source. There's the big highlight." #### ⏱️ [16:45](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=1005) — [H2] Community awareness still low despite announcement - Key idea: Many developers still don't know PHP can build mobile apps - Evidence: "So many people are like wait you can do mobile from PHP like they didn't even know anything about this" #### ⏱️ [17:30](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=1050) — [H1] Emotional decision-making process - Key idea: Going free was an emotionally difficult business decision - Evidence: "A roller coaster to get to this point... one of us would be like 'Dude, we got to go free' and then two weeks later it's reversed" #### ⏱️ [21:15](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=1275) — [H1] Plugin architecture solving real problems - Key idea: Plugins prevent app bloat and App Store rejections from unused permissions - Evidence: "We had some of our users... getting their apps rejected from the app store because they don't have permission strings" #### ⏱️ [23:42](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=1422) — [H2] Plugin marketplace structure - Key idea: Mix of free core plugins and premium plugins for revenue - Evidence: "14 or 15 plugins... most of them are free. Some of the ones that people really ask for... we are charging for" #### ⏱️ [25:18](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=1518) — [H3] Third-party plugin ecosystem - Key idea: Community can build and sell plugins through their marketplace - Evidence: "Two or three dozen plugins already submitted to us that are just waiting for us to figure out legal and compliance" #### ⏱️ [27:30](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=1650) — [H1] Revenue model transparency - Key idea: Open about business sustainability challenges and revenue sources - Evidence: "We are both full-time on this project and from month to month it's like we're not sure if we're going to pay bills" #### ⏱️ [32:45](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=1965) — [H1] Jump app functionality - Key idea: QR code deployment for instant mobile testing without environment setup - Evidence: "You scan that with a Jump app and voila, your application is on the device... without having to configure your environment at all" #### ⏱️ [35:20](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=2120) — [H2] Jump integrates with Bifrost for team collaboration - Key idea: Team members can test each other's branches via cloud builds - Evidence: "Pull down all of your projects... pull that down all of the different branches... I can see all your changes" #### ⏱️ [38:15](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=2295) — [H3] Unexpected platform support discovered - Key idea: Native PHP accidentally works on TV platforms out of the box - Evidence: "Native PHP for mobile just works for... TV out of the box, it just works" #### ⏱️ [41:30](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=2490) — [H1] Mimi AI-powered development environment - Key idea: Zero-setup environment using Claude for mobile app development - Evidence: "Within a minute the environment is ready to start receiving prompts... using an LLM to make all of the changes for you" #### ⏱️ [46:45](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=2805) — [H2] Mimi demo showing calculator app creation - Key idea: Single prompt creates functional mobile apps with native features - Evidence: "Make me an iPhone calculator clone but make it Mother's Day themed... that was kind of it" #### ⏱️ [52:10](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=3130) — [H3] Plugin development kit for Claude - Key idea: AI-assisted plugin development in multiple languages - Evidence: "One prompt. Almost every single time it's a one shot to get it to work... 10 minutes to build a plugin" #### ⏱️ [58:25](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=3505) — [H2] Upcoming events and "The Vibes" - Key idea: Post-Laracon community event to maintain conference energy - Evidence: "Day three for Laracon... Let's keep the vibes going... 89 bucks... we're just hoping to cover the cost" ## 📚 References - [Native PHP Website](https://nativephp.com) - [Native PHP Plugins](https://nativephp.com/plugins) - [The Vibes Event](https://nativephp.com/the-vibes) - [Bifrost Deployment Service](https://bifrost.nativephp.com) - [Laracasts Native PHP Course](https://laracasts.com) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Native PHP transitioned from paid licensing to free open source with plugin-based revenue model to solve sustainability and adoption challenges - New plugin architecture prevents app bloat and App Store rejections while enabling community-driven development ecosystem - Jump and Mimi tools eliminate development environment friction through QR deployment and AI-powered cloud development environments ## 📰 Newsletter **Native PHP Goes Free: Mobile Development Revolution** Big news for PHP developers! Native PHP just announced they're going completely free and open source for mobile development. This game-changing move opens up native iOS and Android development to the entire PHP community. The new plugin architecture is particularly exciting - instead of bloated core installs, you now composer-require only what you need. Free plugins cover essentials like camera, files, and device info, while premium options support advanced features like biometrics and push notifications. Two standout tools launched alongside: Jump lets you scan QR codes to instantly test Laravel apps on your phone (no Xcode setup!), while Mimi provides AI-powered development environments that need zero local configuration. This represents a major opportunity for Laravel developers to expand into mobile without learning Swift or Kotlin. The plugin ecosystem is already growing with community contributions. Resources: [Native PHP](https://nativephp.com), [Plugin Marketplace](https://nativephp.com/plugins), [Jump App Downloads](https://nativephp.com/jump) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create mobile development workshops using Native PHP, target Laravel conferences - Education: Develop learning paths for web-to-mobile transitions, plugin development tutorials - Developer experience: Improve plugin documentation, create scaffolding commands - Developer marketing: Highlight zero-setup benefits, showcase community success stories - Community management: Foster plugin marketplace discussions, moderate technical support #### WordPress - Core: Investigate Native PHP integration possibilities for WordPress mobile apps - Community: Explore mobile meetup content, WordCamp mobile tracks - Training: Develop mobile development learning paths for WordPress developers - Marketing: Position WordPress as mobile-ready platform option - Plugins: Research WordPress-to-mobile plugin development opportunities ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Free and open source model will accelerate Native PHP adoption among Laravel developers significantly - Plugin marketplace will create sustainable revenue through premium features while maintaining free core - AI-powered development tools like Mimi will reduce mobile development barriers for web developers - QR-based deployment will become preferred method for mobile app testing and client demonstrations ### 📊 Methodology - Track Native PHP GitHub stars, plugin installations, and community Discord growth metrics - Survey Laravel developers about mobile development interest before/after free announcement - Measure plugin marketplace revenue distribution between free and premium offerings - A/B test traditional mobile development setup vs Jump app deployment times ### ❓ Questions - How will the plugin marketplace sustain two full-time maintainers long-term? - Can AI-powered tools like Mimi compete with established mobile development IDEs? - Will Apple's App Store restrictions limit Native PHP's mobile deployment options? ### 🔮 Future Research - Integration possibilities with WordPress mobile applications - Performance benchmarks comparing Native PHP apps to native Swift/Kotlin - Developer experience studies on web-to-mobile transition challenges ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Web developers can now build mobile apps without learning new languages - Policy: App Store submission processes need consideration for PHP-based mobile apps - Security: Plugin architecture requires careful vetting of third-party extensions - Education: Mobile development curricula should include PHP-based options - Funding: Plugin marketplaces offer new revenue models for open source mobile frameworks ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th Grade (Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Live demo of Mimi calculator app, Jump QR scanning workflow - Improve: Plugin architecture diagrams, mobile app lifecycle visualizations #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full podcast discussion with detailed explanations - Improve: Plugin development audio tutorials, deployment process narrations #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear analogies comparing to web development, technical definitions - Improve: Glossary of mobile development terms, step-by-step explanations #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Jump QR scanning demo, hands-on plugin installation - Improve: Interactive plugin builder, mobile testing checklists #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Plugin architecture reasoning, revenue model breakdown - Improve: Decision trees for plugin selection, performance metrics #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Discord community discussions, conference networking events - Improve: Plugin development peer review, collaborative project templates #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual plugin development workflow, self-paced courses - Improve: Solo developer project ideas, independent learning paths #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Ecosystem growth analogies, organic community development - Improve: Sustainability impact considerations, open source lifecycle thinking ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Podcast format naturally accessible, clear heading structure in notes - Improve: Transcript formatting with proper landmarks, descriptive link text #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard web navigation on documentation sites - Improve: Keyboard shortcuts for plugin installation, accessible mobile app testing #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard contrast in documentation - Improve: High contrast mode for development tools, scalable UI elements #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive documentation design - Improve: Mobile development tools with zoom support, scalable code editors #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript available for podcast episode - Improve: Video tutorials with captions, audio descriptions for demos #### Forms and interactions - Present: Basic form accessibility in documentation - Improve: Accessible plugin configuration interfaces, error handling #### Standards reference - Mobile development tools should meet WCAG 2.2 AA standards for accessibility ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Global developer community, international conference presence - Improve: Multi-language plugin descriptions, regional mobile development examples #### Inclusive language - Present: Gender-neutral technical terms, defined jargon - Improve: Plain-language plugin descriptions, avoid cultural idioms in documentation #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Structured plugin categories, consistent documentation format - Improve: Visual plugin installation guides, clear step-by-step processes #### Representation - Present: Diverse developer testimonials, varied use cases - Improve: Showcase developers from different backgrounds, inclusive imagery #### Psychological safety - Present: Supportive community Discord, respectful technical discussions - Improve: Clear contribution guidelines, harassment reporting mechanisms ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Plugin architecture logically prevents app bloat and permission issues - Inductive strength: Success with Laravel developers suggests broader PHP community adoption - Causal reasoning: Free model directly addresses adoption barriers for mobile development - Analogical strength: Comparing to successful open source plugin ecosystems #### Fallacies - False dilemma: Presentation implies only paid vs free models, ignoring hybrid approaches - Appeal to popularity: Assuming community enthusiasm guarantees long-term sustainability #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Enthusiastic but honest about challenges, transparent about business concerns ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No denial patterns identified in discussion - Attack: No attacks on critics or competitors - Reverse victim/offender: No victim/offender reversal tactics - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Genuine excitement and concern about sustainability, honest vulnerability about business challenges ## 🎯 Conclusion Native PHP's transition to free and open source represents a significant milestone for PHP mobile development. The plugin architecture elegantly solves --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] Heat. Heat. [00:24] Heat. Heat. N. [00:50] Hey, [01:02] hey, hey. Heat. Heat. N. [01:36] down. [music] [01:42] Yeah. [01:59] Heat. Heat. [02:06] Heat. [02:25] Heat. [02:30] Heat up [02:52] here. [03:04] Do you lie awake at night? Are you [03:07] afraid to turn out the lights? Is there [03:10] something you're scared of? [03:14] What's [music] there out in the dark? [03:17] Make sure to keep all your windows [03:19] locked. Do you do you surrender? [03:24] You try and try to stay awake. These [03:27] walls you [music] can't escape. [03:30] Here's one for the lonely hearts. For [03:33] the ones that fear [music] the dark. You [03:35] better run out. Run out. Out of here. [03:38] But you can't look the [music] other [03:39] way. Here's one for the broken road. [03:43] That's the only one [music] you know. [03:45] You better run out. Run out. Truth or [03:47] dare. Get me out. [music] Take me [03:50] anywhere but here. [03:53] Anywhere [03:55] [music] [03:55] but here. [04:13] Do you lie awake at night? Are you [04:16] afraid to turn out the lights? [music] [04:18] Is there something you're scared of? [04:24] >> [music] [04:26] >> Make sure to keep all your windows. [04:43] [music] [04:55] Hello and welcome to PHP Alive and [04:58] Kicking. This is a podcast that uh talks [05:01] about all the cool stuff happening in uh [05:04] PHP. I'm Mike Paige and my co-host over [05:07] there is Chris. [05:09] >> Hello. [05:10] We are brought to you by PHP Architect [05:13] and made better by our partners at PHP [05:15] Score. but more about them uh later. Um [05:18] before we get into today's show, we've [05:21] got a few things we want to talk about. [05:23] Um first of all, if you're listening to [05:25] us uh live on on YouTube right now, head [05:28] over to our Discord where you can join [05:30] in the chat. Um please, this is a live [05:34] recording, so do get in there. Um let's [05:36] have some questions for our guests. I'm [05:37] sure there's going to be a lot of [05:38] excitement about the subjects we're [05:40] going to be talking about today. Um [05:42] whilst you're on YouTube, hit the like [05:44] and subscribe button. that would be [05:46] great. We do have for you a um magazine [05:49] discount. We produce a monthly magazine [05:52] all about PHP. Uh if you use the uh code [05:56] Alive 3, you'll get the first three [05:58] months of uh the digital annual [06:01] subscription for free. [06:04] We also uh run a uh conference PHP Tech [06:10] which is coming up very soon. Not far [06:12] off now. the start of this year is going [06:14] really really quick. So yeah, that's in [06:16] that's in May. [06:19] Alongside PHP tech, we're also running [06:23] uh JStech for the first time ever where [06:26] there will be you can either go to uh [06:28] talks on PHP or talks on on uh on [06:32] JavaScript. Uh yes, we are mingling the [06:34] two. That might be a bit dangerous, but [06:37] we'll see what happens. Um we also have [06:41] our swag store. head over to the store [06:43] and you can uh pick up some cool [06:46] t-shirts and caps and all sorts over [06:48] there. Um there's some really cool merch [06:51] over there. Okay, that is I think ticked [06:54] all the boxes for everything we we need [06:56] to to say. Is that right? [06:59] >> We we could also let slip that if you [07:02] happen to go to jst.io then um early [07:05] bird ticket pricing is still available [07:07] until the end of the month. [07:09] >> Oh yes, early bird end of month. I [07:11] forgot about that one. [07:12] >> Only on jst.io. [snorts] [07:16] >> Okay. [07:19] Shh. Don't tell anyone. Don't tell Eric [07:21] and John. [07:22] >> No, don't don't tell them. They They [07:24] certainly didn't mention it on their [07:25] podcast. [07:27] [clears throat] [07:28] >> I haven't listened to it yet. [07:32] I'm going to get in trouble now. [07:36] I haven't listened to it yet. Right. [07:37] Okay. Uh before we bring on I guess I [07:40] want to show share a video. [07:42] Unfortunately, I haven't worked out how [07:44] to you um share the the audio as well as [07:48] a video, but we're going to switch over [07:50] to that. We'll share that and then our [07:52] guests hopefully will miraculously [07:54] appear on the screen while we're over [07:56] there. [08:59] >> [laughter] [09:02] >> We we could all hear the sound. [09:05] >> Uh I didn't I am the sound. [09:11] So yes, unsurprisingly from that intro [09:13] video, we have Shane and Simon with us [09:15] from Native PHP. [09:17] >> What's up? [09:18] >> How are you both? [09:23] [laughter] [09:23] >> Ladies first. Ladies first. [09:26] >> I'm not doing too good. I've been Yeah, [09:28] I've been doing a lot of traveling and [09:30] it's finally catching up with me. Made [09:32] it to London, but uh come down with the [09:35] Lergie. So [09:37] >> yeah, [clears throat] not feeling [09:38] >> So are you that jet jet lag that you're [09:40] actually 24 hours behind yourself? [09:42] >> I think it's jet lag. I think I've just [09:44] got a cold, [09:46] >> but yeah, I'm feeling pretty rough, [09:48] which is the worst way to start a [09:50] podcast. I'm sorry everybody, but I'm [09:52] not feeling great. [09:54] >> Yeah, make everybody feel better. Shane, [09:57] [laughter] [09:58] >> all right. Hey there, [09:59] >> Grandmaster. Oh, [10:01] >> that's me. [10:01] >> Well, you you two have been very very [10:04] busy. [10:05] >> Yeah. Yeah, we're we're getting there. [10:07] [laughter] [10:08] >> We're getting there. [10:08] >> So, quite quite a big announcement at [10:11] the beginning of the month. [10:13] >> Yeah. [10:15] >> Excited a lot of people. [snorts] [10:18] >> It has. [10:20] >> Yep. Uh I mean, just cats out the bag. [10:23] You want me to say it? Is that what it [10:24] sounds like you're leading me into this [10:26] and one of us should say [10:27] >> that's kind of our job. Which one are [10:30] you doing to say stuff? [laughter] So, [10:32] native PHP, for those that don't know, [10:34] which is really funny because uh we're [10:36] we I mean we announced this a couple [10:38] weeks ago, native PHP for mobile now is [10:41] free and open source. There's the big [10:43] highlight. There's more. There's a lot [10:45] more than that, but that's the big [10:46] highlight. Um we announced this, you [10:49] know, we had like Laravel news uh [10:51] articles go out. We had our own tweets [10:53] like scheduled to go out on time and all [10:55] this stuff. And then we put our own that [10:57] video and a tweet yesterday or the day [10:59] before and it got hundreds of likes and [11:00] so many people are like wait you can do [11:02] mobile from PHP like they didn't even [11:04] know anything about this. So it's like [11:06] it's still there's still a lot of uh [11:09] there's a lot of people that uh we have [11:11] yet to uh uh understand what's going on [11:14] here like trying to see what we're we're [11:16] all about here. So uh the more the more [11:18] avenues that we can shout from the [11:20] better I feel. uh it's just going to [11:22] make the whole core of everything that [11:23] much better and enable us to do things [11:25] like make it free in the first place, [11:27] you know. So, that was a struggle and a [11:29] a lot of work to get to that point and a [11:32] lot of back and forth, I think, [11:33] emotionally and a lot of work. There's [11:36] there's no shortage of uh of work in [11:39] this whole thing, but that was what's so [11:40] funny. What are you laughing at? [11:43] >> No, emotionally, you're right. [11:45] >> Oh, yeah. [laughter] [11:46] A roller coaster to get to this point. [11:48] It's like, you know, one of us would be [11:50] like, "Dude, we got to go free. We'll [11:51] open the floodgates. Everyone will come [11:53] in. It's like, yeah, we can't do it. [11:54] Find and then like uh two weeks later [11:56] it's ros are reversed." Like the other [11:58] one is like, "No, we got to make it go [12:00] for. You're right." You know, it's like, [12:01] "No, actually, I I misspoke." You know, [12:03] [laughter] [12:05] >> it's not it's not just that it's gone, [12:07] it's free. You've done a lot more work. [12:10] Um that's that's exciting. Excites me. [12:14] Um, we did we have this is the second [12:16] time you've been on the show with us and [12:18] we talked about this before and uh I am [12:20] I am pleased to tell you both that I [12:23] have now started uh not just a mobile [12:26] app but a desktop app as well. [12:28] >> Two different projects. When I say I [12:30] started them, Claude did it for me. [12:32] [laughter] [12:32] >> Yeah, that's even better. Actually, we [12:34] spent a lot of time training AI on it. [12:36] So, that's good. [12:37] >> So, yeah. Um, I I have got two projects [12:40] that I'm I'm sort of going back and [12:41] forth and and doing little bits on and [12:43] playing around with it and it's it's [12:45] awesome. It's so cool. But you've made [12:47] it even better. [12:48] >> Yeah. [12:50] >> For for what have we got? I've just got [12:52] the announcement up. So, a big [12:54] announcement about plugins. [12:57] >> Yeah. [12:58] >> Yeah. [12:59] >> That's probably one of my favorite [13:00] things to talk about. Yeah. [13:01] >> Yeah. Let's talk about the plugins, the [13:04] change and approach to the plugins. [13:08] Before you go into the deep technical [13:10] aspects of that, I think it's worth just [13:12] saying like uh when we were talking last [13:15] time, I actually can't remember when it [13:17] was, but I've got a feeling it was [13:19] around the time that we did V2 or we [13:21] were coming up to V2 releasing. [13:23] >> Yeah. [13:24] >> Um maybe it had just come out. I don't [13:26] know. Uh [13:28] >> you were just I think you were just [13:29] about to come out because you told us [13:31] about the QR scanning and barcode [13:34] scanner. [13:35] >> Yeah, that's right. The big reveal you [13:37] did was that QR was coming. [laughter] [13:41] >> So at that point we had a whole bunch of [13:44] new toys that we thrown into V2, [13:48] >> but they were all baked in in this like [13:50] really [13:52] what I'll say now feels like a really [13:54] cumbersome way of doing it. Um, but we'd [13:57] had dreams, you know, sort of a vision [13:59] of what this could be [14:02] uh to to make it really extensible [14:06] and um yeah, we we realized that for V3 [14:10] basically [14:12] uh not it was it sort of happened just [14:15] before V2 came out the the kind of [14:18] fundamentals for it. Um, but then over [14:21] the last few months we polished it up [14:23] and it it's enabling the the plug-in [14:26] mechanism which is really really cool [14:28] and and that you know just like on its [14:30] own is a huge huge thing for the next [14:36] version of this tool because of what it [14:38] enables and and Shane I'm sure is like [14:41] itching to go into all of the detail for [14:44] that. I'm fine. [14:46] [laughter] [14:48] >> I'll let him do that for a bit. [14:52] >> No. Uh, thanks. Uh, no, there's a lot to [14:56] talk about here. I think I the big smile [14:58] came over my face because it's like I [14:59] can't believe half of this [ __ ] works to [15:01] be honest. Sorry for the cussing. [15:03] [laughter] It just it's incredible. And [15:04] I think like if you go back to like at [15:08] the beginning of the project, we were [15:09] looking at other frameworks that are out [15:11] there do something similar and some of [15:12] the nightmares that they have is because [15:14] they broke things up into like modular [15:16] bits and it's like that creates the [15:18] dependency hell of things and we were [15:20] like we want don't want to do that [15:23] >> for very real reasons. We had to and I [15:26] think that's kind of what Simon's [15:27] getting to in that there's two big [15:30] reasons we had to do it. Number one is [15:31] as he mentioned it's bloating every time [15:34] we add all right people are asking us we [15:35] want camera we want microphone we want [15:37] Bluetooth we want printer whatever it is [15:39] right we're putting it in core and it's [15:41] getting bigger and bigger and bigger [15:42] whether or not you're using that [15:43] software it's there and and it's it's [15:46] bloating right and on the web we don't [15:48] really have to think or worry about that [15:49] and it's a different mindset even for us [15:51] coming into this it's a different [15:53] mindset of having to save space like we [15:56] just have some server if it gets too big [15:58] we'll just like you know extend the ELB [16:02] or whatever the the the not the load [16:04] balancer the um whatever it's called EBS [16:07] EBS which is it which AWS service is the [16:10] uh elastic [16:12] hard drive [16:12] >> you mean anyways [16:14] >> block storage [16:15] >> EBS right [16:16] >> elastic block storage [16:18] >> uh so um you know that's just a [16:21] different paradigm shift that we had to [16:22] think about and consider uh in addition [16:24] to that I think it was within a day or [16:26] two after launching v2 we had some of [16:29] our users is coming to us saying they're [16:31] they're getting their apps are rejected [16:33] from the app store because they don't [16:35] have what's called a permission string. [16:37] So, if you have a camera uh software [16:39] inside of your app and uh you like you [16:43] you've seen it before the first time you [16:44] use the app, it pops up and it's like [16:46] this app wants to use your camera [16:47] because it loves to take selfies. Like [16:48] it's a permission string, right? If you [16:50] don't declare that, it goes into a [16:52] certain place inside of your um [16:54] >> inside of your iPhone or Android app. um [16:58] if you don't put that there then you're [17:00] not going to get you're you're going to [17:02] get rejected but these people weren't [17:04] even using the camera was the thing and [17:06] so we were like why we didn't understand [17:08] it well they're detecting it in the [17:09] binary so Apple when you submit it [17:11] >> they're they have some algorithm that's [17:13] detecting that that software is there [17:15] and they're like you have software there [17:16] and you're so you could fudge that right [17:19] you can get by and just say oh we just [17:20] you know we're taking pictures because [17:22] we like taking pictures whatever the [17:23] reason like you can get by that but we [17:24] knew that wasn't a long-term solution so [17:27] we had to go this route of plugins, what [17:30] we're calling plugins, this modular uh [17:32] native APIs that are composer packages [17:35] essentially just composer require [17:36] install them and you're off to the [17:38] races. [17:40] >> So Joe says EBS can do 64 terabytes. I'm [17:44] now wondering what a 64 terbte phone [17:46] looks like. [snorts] [17:48] [laughter] [17:50] You remember the back in the day when [17:52] they had those whole rooms of computers, [17:55] you know? [laughter] [17:58] >> A 2 megabyte hard drive was the size of [18:01] a fridge. [laughter] [18:04] >> So true. [18:07] Um, so plugins. I love talking about [18:09] plugins. There's really cool things that [18:11] I'm seeing people in the community in [18:13] our Discord channel are building with [18:14] plugins. Uh it's really like um it it [18:18] gives me butterflies seeing some of this [18:20] stuff. I just get very like emotional [18:22] and excited and like look at this thing [18:24] taking a life of its own. There's so [18:26] many people contributing and we do have [18:28] a marketplace for the plugins. I think [18:30] when we when we launched this there was [18:32] uh something like 14 or 15 plugins that [18:34] we had and uh we made most of them are [18:37] free. some of the ones that people [18:38] really ask for or some that will [18:40] actually make you money um that you are [18:43] you know like um secure storage you need [18:45] security everybody needs security and [18:47] people are like you're charging for [18:48] security I'm like yeah look at Norton or [18:50] Macaffy I mean it's a good [laughter] [18:52] it's a good business model right um push [18:54] notifications because those are like [18:56] direction I mean directly actionable [18:58] towards revenue generating actions we [19:01] feel so there's some that we are [19:02] charging for uh people that have had uh [19:06] licenses with us they purchased licenses [19:08] with us or they were early access uh [19:10] program uh partners, they get discounts [19:13] and special things. So, we don't want to [19:14] feel like we don't want anyone to feel [19:16] jipped or ripped off or anything like [19:17] that. We want to take care of our users. [19:19] And then moving forward, what we're [19:21] providing uh once we get back from EU in [19:23] a few weeks, we're going to start [19:24] working on allowing third-party plugins [19:27] to be sold or for free on the same [19:29] marketplace. We have a nice distribution [19:31] channel there for that. And we've had I [19:34] don't even know, God, two or three dozen [19:36] plugins already submitted to us that are [19:38] just waiting for us to to figure out [19:40] legal and compliance and all that, you [19:42] know, jargon stuff that we got to figure [19:44] out for that. So, it's really exciting. [19:46] Um, it's going to just enable more and [19:48] more people to use this. And there's [19:50] literally no limitation now as to what [19:53] we can do from a Laravel application, [19:56] from a PHP application, [19:59] uh, on a physical device. I have yet to [20:01] see any real limitations other than a [20:04] couple very like core things that we [20:07] know we have to work on. Background [20:09] tasks, scheduling, [20:11] >> um little things like that that I mean [20:12] they're not little things, but they are [20:14] uh they're really core fundamental [20:16] things. What this does for us though is [20:18] now we don't have to we don't have to [20:19] put our heads together and like say all [20:21] right, which of these 55 different [20:23] plugins everybody's asking for do we [20:25] want to go and build? we can just let [20:26] the community go and do that. Frees up [20:28] some of our time to do things like this, [20:30] be on podcasts and shows all over the [20:32] place and talk around the world [20:34] >> as we've been doing and will continue [20:35] to. And my caffeine's obviously kicked [20:38] in. So, thank you guys for the space to [20:41] uh [laughter] [20:41] talk a little bit. Appreciate it. [20:45] >> No problem at all. So, you say you got [20:47] some some uh the core core I can't [20:50] speak. My caffeine has run out. [20:54] um some core plugins that are free and [20:56] then there's a then there's the premium [20:57] ones. Um I was just trying to see if I [21:00] could find the list of the free ones. [21:04] >> Yeah, that's a good uh if you just go to [21:06] nativephp.com/plugins. [21:08] >> Yeah, I'm in the um I'm in the um the [21:12] announcement you made on the first. So [21:14] you got biometrics, geoloccation, push [21:17] not notifications, scanner, and secure [21:20] storage [21:22] listed under [21:23] >> y [21:23] >> the free core ones. [21:25] >> No, those are the No, those are the [21:26] >> No, they I do apologize. They're the [21:28] marketplace ones. No, I have misread. [21:31] >> It's all right, man. The free ones are [21:34] mobile dialogue, mobile system, mobile [21:37] browser, mobile file, mobile share, [21:40] mobile network, mobile microphone, [21:43] mobile device, and mobile camera. [21:46] >> Sounds right. Yeah, [21:48] >> I got that from the homepage. [21:51] [sighs] [21:52] Once again, Chris beats me to the [21:54] Googling. [laughter] [21:58] >> And then then there's some really cool [22:00] page ones. [22:02] Sorry, [22:04] >> I said it's not a race, but you do win a [22:06] prize. So, well done, Chris. [laughter] [22:09] >> It's my prize, a subscription to the [22:11] paid ones. [22:14] >> Well, we'll talk about that later. [22:16] [laughter] [22:17] >> I've already bought them. [22:20] >> There you go. [22:23] >> And I think I actually look at that [22:25] statement that just happened. We can [22:26] talk about this. This is a safe place. [22:28] Uh, I mean it was it was kind of the [22:30] elephant in the room is like we are now [22:32] going free and open source. How are we [22:34] paying for our bills? Uh, and I think [22:36] that's something that um we're we're not [22:39] scared to talk about. This is something [22:40] that we're uh we're there's some [22:43] transparency. There's some things that [22:44] it's like you know it's a business. We [22:46] got to figure out the right line there. [22:48] But [22:49] >> um you know we we we have a byrost as a [22:52] product. So if you if once you have a [22:54] native PHP application you want to [22:56] distribute that. We built by frost as a [22:59] product as kind of like forge or cloud [23:01] is to Laravel. This is the way to get to [23:03] the app stores, right? Um, and so [23:05] [clears throat] you just connect your [23:06] GitHub repository for your project and [23:09] you put in some credentials that you [23:10] need for the stores and you hit ship it [23:12] and it will ship it. We're going to be [23:14] spending a lot more time on on making [23:16] that even more streamlined, less [23:17] friction uh, for the end user. Perhaps [23:20] some command line stuff that you can [23:22] deploy. Maybe we've got we are talking [23:24] about it. We'll see. Um and then plugins [23:28] and I I I think other than that we do [23:31] have um ambitions for a video course uh [23:35] probably within a month to two months [23:37] we'll be announcing releasing that um [23:40] kind of thing. And because we know that [23:42] education is like the biggest thing if [23:44] if there's so many people that want to [23:46] use this and they try to use it and then [23:48] they fail for one reason or another and [23:50] it's like oh if they just had me and [23:52] Simon there next to them just for 10 [23:54] minutes here and there they would be off [23:56] to the races and they're making mobile [23:57] apps for themselves or their clients or [23:59] the clients users their users. [24:01] >> Um so you know like the decision to go [24:04] free and open source was scary. It still [24:06] is scary to be honest because we are [24:08] both full-time on this project [24:11] >> and from month to month it's it's like [24:13] we're not sure if we're going to pay [24:15] bills sometime most of the time actually [24:17] like usually it's at the end of the [24:19] month we're like hey look what happened [24:20] you know [24:22] >> um and yeah it's it's it's been kind of [24:25] a roller coaster in that regard but we [24:27] are um we're hoping to see that uh even [24:30] out with some partner programs and some [24:32] sponsorships and stuff like that to kind [24:34] of uh smooth things over uh for the [24:37] >> interim. [24:38] Uh you mentioned something there that I [24:40] just wanted to latch on to before we go [24:42] to our sponsor because I'll forget when [24:44] we come back. Um there is now a video [24:47] course on Larcast. [24:49] >> There is. Yeah, Simon. [24:51] >> And it's completely free thanks to the [24:54] Larcast team. Um it's funny actually. I [24:57] I recorded a lot of that back in May, [25:02] June last year and it's only just come [25:05] out now. [25:06] >> Yeah. So it doesn't it's a little bit [25:09] unfortunate because there's been like [25:10] obviously a lot of advances that we've [25:12] made in in short order. Um, and [25:16] obviously a big part of it is, you know, [25:18] I say a big part, one bit in one of the [25:21] videos I mentioned that you have to pay [25:23] for to get access to the thing, you [25:25] know, and now it's free. So, uh, it's [25:28] sort of outdated as soon as it's come [25:31] out, but this that's kind of the nature [25:33] of doing that kind of content, which is [25:35] again why we want to make our own um, [25:39] and start spending some time focusing on [25:41] that. But yeah, go and watch the Lar [25:45] course. It's a good it's a good start. [25:47] It's completely free [25:50] >> and if you don't mind droning on for a [25:53] couple of hours, then [laughter] you'll [25:55] be all right. Uh but you can dip in and [25:58] out of videos. [25:58] >> I won't watch it then. [26:00] >> Figure out what's going on. [26:02] >> I'm hoping you don't need to watch it [26:04] because you should [laughter] know how [26:06] to use the product. Well, should. [26:09] >> All right, on that note, let's uh let's [26:11] hear from our sponsors. [26:16] >> Thank you to our partners at [26:17] phpscore.com. [26:19] Every app builds up technical debt over [26:21] time. It's the price we pay for shipping [26:23] new features and moving fast. When we [26:25] build up too much of it, though, it [26:27] [music] can start to impact how we work. [26:29] Team velocity suffers. Bugs become more [26:31] frequent and take longer to fix, and [26:34] everyone starts to get a little [26:35] frustrated. [26:36] The key to managing debt is to measure [26:38] it. A credit score can help you [26:41] understand how well you're managing your [26:42] financial debt. And now [music] there's [26:44] a credit score for your technical debt. [26:46] Go to phpsscore.com to get a free [26:49] technical [music] debt score and [26:50] monitoring for all of your PHP [26:52] applications today. [26:59] Thank you PHP score. Um I will just say [27:02] I said the wrong thing. They are [27:04] partners with us. They It's not a uh uh [27:07] not sponsorship. It's a partnership that [27:09] they are with us. I just thought I [27:11] better correct myself. I realize I'd [27:13] said the wrong word. Um okay, let's [27:15] let's keep diving into this this huge [27:18] announcement that you made uh at the [27:20] beginning of the month. So, the next [27:21] thing on there is jump. [27:24] Now, this is a pretty cool thing. I have [27:26] not tried it yet, but it looks pretty [27:28] awesome. [27:28] >> Jump is dope, man. Um so, it's really [27:31] cool. Uh, and I'll and I'll say so [27:34] there's jump and Mimi and I had almost [27:36] nothing to do with Mimi other than just [27:39] like, hey, make those buttons smaller or [27:42] make it so I can zoom in, you know, like [27:44] just telling Simon some stuff that I see [27:46] as a as a user. And I think he had kind [27:48] of the same the same like we talked like [27:50] fundamentally about how jump should work [27:52] and then I just went off on the races to [27:55] the races. I went I was racing. we were [27:57] racing. Um, and uh, so Jump is uh, let [28:03] me see if I can say this without saying [28:05] the words I don't want to say. Yeah, I [28:07] can do it. Jump is an app for your [28:11] phone. So, you can go to the Play Store. [28:12] You can go to the um that it's through [28:15] Test Flight right now because Apple's a [28:16] douche and that they're not wanting to [28:19] change apparently. [snorts] But, we'll [28:21] we'll figure it out. We'll I'll go back [28:23] to California and twist some arms or [28:25] something. um we'll figure that out. But [28:27] it's in TestFlight at the moment and [28:28] that's good for up to 10,000 users. I [28:30] think we've just hit about a thousand on [28:33] um on Testflight users. But what it is, [28:35] it's an app that you install on your [28:37] device. You can start a brand new [28:40] Laravel uh uh uh site project composer [28:44] require native PHP mobile and then run [28:48] uh PHP Artisan native Jump. It's going [28:51] to ask if you are using an an Android or [28:53] an iPhone and you just select whatever [28:56] phone you have that's installed the Jump [28:57] app and it's going to show a QR code in [28:59] the browser. You scan that with a Jump [29:01] app and voila, your application is on [29:04] the device and you have real native [29:07] functionality right there in your hand [29:09] uh without having to configure your [29:11] environment at all. Now, I will put an [29:14] asterisk. There's no hot module [29:16] reloading which is one thing I really [29:17] really want. Uh it's something we'll [29:19] figure out how to do. Um, it it's just a [29:21] matter of time. We actually had a [29:23] working uh model. It was working fine [29:25] with LiveWire, but with like Inertia [29:27] stuff, it wasn't. We didn't want to have [29:28] it halfbaked, but we wanted to release [29:30] it in time for the for everything else. [29:32] So, we'll get that going in the next [29:34] couple months as well. And then it's [29:36] just you'll just make changes coding and [29:38] you'll see them update on your device in [29:40] real time. And it's badass. I didn't [29:43] think it would go over as well as it has [29:45] with the community. Everybody is like [29:47] falling in love with this thing. Really [29:48] wowed by it. So pretty proud of that. [29:50] >> It sounds absolutely crazy. [29:52] >> Well, there's more to it too actually. [29:55] Um, so Bifrost, remember I said about [29:57] Bifrost, kind of like forger cloud. If [30:00] you signed in to the Jump app with your [30:02] Bifrost credentials, you just go to the [30:03] settings and sign in, [30:05] >> it will pull down all of your projects [30:07] and you can see all the projects that [30:08] are there and you click on one [30:10] >> and it will pull up all of the different [30:11] branches that you have for that project. [30:13] So say you and I are working on the same [30:15] on the same team, right? And you've made [30:16] some changes and you're on a different [30:18] branch. I can just go and pull that [30:19] down. It's going to do a build behind [30:21] the scenes on AWS code build. It's gonna [30:23] pull it down and it will unpackage right [30:25] on my phone. I can see all your changes [30:27] and you're off to the races. It's uh [30:30] it's kind of badass. Yeah. [30:32] >> Yeah. [30:34] That's the uh Yeah, I don't have any [30:36] words. I'm just kind of I saw that and [30:39] then you explaining it's just like blow [30:41] my mind. Yeah. [30:43] >> Yeah. So, we've had a comment from a [30:45] subscriber from Bifrost. Byrost [30:47] subscriber here. I'll be using it for [30:49] the mobile offering of my new Laravel [30:51] SAS that I'm launching soon. Appreciate [30:53] you guys and the innovations you're [30:54] bringing to Laravel and PHP community. [30:57] >> We absolutely love you. I just went to [31:00] Costco today to get some milk and some [31:02] water. You helped me with that. No joke. [31:06] There's no there's no sugar coating [31:07] that. You You the people are helping us [31:10] actually stay alive so we can keep [31:12] working on this stuff. So it's a [31:13] symbiotic mutual appreciation. [31:16] >> So So what you're telling us is if we [31:18] don't subscribe to Bifrost, you can't [31:19] drink coffee. [31:20] >> We I will die. I will die. Yeah, it's [31:23] exactly what I'm saying. [31:25] >> It's It's worse than that. that native [31:27] [laughter] PHP won't exist because right [31:31] like [31:32] >> yeah it does I think these projects this [31:34] is something I was thinking about when [31:36] we were talking about uh [31:39] you know how we've transitioned to free [31:41] the the challenge that we have to to [31:44] kind of think through like what the [31:46] implications of that are for for [31:49] maintainers that's what we see ourselves [31:51] as right we're the maintainers of this [31:54] um and I've always wanted it to be a [31:57] sustainable thing because I know that [32:00] projects like this only survive if [32:04] you've got somebody behind it like and [32:07] by somebody I mean not just developers [32:10] who are prepared to give spare time but [32:13] actually like proactively driving it [32:17] forward and and to do that you just have [32:20] to be fulltime on it. It's like it's a [32:23] complex project and [32:25] >> lots of different moving parts and [32:28] >> needs like coordination and focus and [32:31] you can't give it that when you're you [32:34] know if you're the only person on it and [32:36] you're only doing it on a Saturday [32:37] evening. Um, [32:40] and you know, it it's a big enough [32:42] project that it requires a lot more than [32:45] two people, frankly, but it's only got [32:47] two people. [32:50] >> And we we've tried to get it to a point [32:52] where it's just sustainable. And I think [32:54] we're we're not really even at that [32:57] point yet. Um, but we we feel confident [33:01] that like making it free is the the [33:03] right move to get there and eternally [33:07] grateful to everybody who's supported in [33:10] getting to this point so far through all [33:12] the different ways that they've done [33:14] that [33:14] >> because um it does mean that Shane will [33:18] survive [laughter] and the project will [33:22] go on, you know, and and that's what it [33:24] needs to do so that more and more people [33:27] keep on using Yeah. And benefiting from [33:28] it. Um. [33:30] >> Yeah. [33:30] >> Yeah. So, carry on. [33:32] >> I I will say it's probably probably one [33:34] of the biggest things [33:36] um in the PHP [33:40] uh community that's come out recently. I [33:42] think I mean the the language itself is [33:44] always improving. There's cool stuff [33:45] coming into the language. Um and all the [33:48] different um frameworks are sort of [33:50] following on. There's cool stuff coming [33:52] into the frameworks. But to be able to [33:53] now actually [33:55] use PHP for almost any device you can [33:58] think possible. Maybe not quite yet a [34:00] fridge, Chris, but [34:03] >> we'll get there. We'll get there. [34:04] [laughter] [34:05] >> Send me a fridge and I'll figure it out. [34:07] I promise. [34:09] >> The stupid thing is that a lot of the [34:11] smart fridges are effectively just a [34:14] very big Android phone that you can put [34:16] stuff in. [laughter] [34:20] So, it's uh subsequently, so we had some [34:23] people point this out. I discovered this [34:25] on my own, but I didn't want to say [34:26] anything because I only spent 10 or 20 [34:28] minutes playing with this thing. [34:29] Somebody pointed out to us the other day [34:31] that uh native PHP for mobile just works [34:35] for was it uh was it TV? [34:38] >> TV. [34:39] >> I think it was TV. So, just for TV out [34:41] of the box, it just works. I played with [34:43] it in an emulator. Um they had it [34:45] actually working, I think. Uh but it [34:47] just kind of works. So you can build TV [34:49] apps apparently. And um we do want to we [34:52] do want to expand. Uh I think something [34:54] Simon said and we I very careful and [34:56] cautious saying this. We want to hire [34:59] people, right? Every time I've said that [35:02] I ended up with like a hundred different [35:04] resumes in my inbox. [laughter] [35:05] We want the money to hire people is what [35:08] I should say. We we need the revenue to [35:10] hire people. That's what I I should be [35:12] very specific about that. So, [35:14] >> so if somebody comes to you with a [35:16] proposal of what they want to do and the [35:18] money to do it, [35:19] >> yes, we'll figure it out. Yeah. [35:23] >> Yeah. [35:24] >> I mean, even even if you came to me with [35:26] like, I want a job and here's enough [35:28] money to pay my salary. We got you, [35:30] dude. We got you. That'd be great. [35:32] >> So So [laughter] you're basically asking [35:34] people to fund themselves for Yukatai. [35:38] >> Absolutely. Absolutely. [35:39] >> Right. Okay. We as long as we're [35:41] completely sure that [laughter] [35:43] >> I I think Joe has a really good point [35:46] here. [snorts] [35:48] >> You could hire us. [35:49] >> Yeah, for sure. If you guys give us the [35:51] money to pay for you, we will absolutely [35:55] consider. We'll put it in the stack. [35:57] We'll get to you in a couple probably a [35:59] year for us to get to the resumes, but [36:02] uh [36:02] >> so we'll consider it. [36:03] >> I have a plan. What I'm going to do is [36:05] I'm going to talk to Taylor, get him to [36:07] sponsor us. I'm then going to come and [36:10] talk to you and say, "Right, Taylor's [36:11] sponsoring us, so we're now going to [36:13] write stuff for you." And then [36:14] everybody's happy. [36:17] >> Sounds It sounds like It sounds like a [36:20] plan. [36:22] >> Yeah. [laughter] [36:26] >> Right. We derailed a bit. Let's Let's [36:29] bring it back on track. So, we we've [36:32] talked about jump, which is like [36:36] from after the the um the plugins and [36:40] and being able to just pull in the bits [36:42] that you need. That is pretty cool. Then [36:45] you then you've gone and announced about [36:47] Mimi. [36:49] >> So, tell us a bit more about Mimi. [36:53] >> Uh [snorts] well, the first thing to say [36:54] is just the last couple of days we've [36:56] had so many people come on and start [36:58] using it. It's actually creaking under [37:01] the pressure and I haven't got the the [37:04] time to [laughter] [37:05] >> to sort it out. But at the moment it's [37:08] it's kind of under maintenance. Uh but [37:11] when it works again, which it will do [37:13] very soon, Mimi is um it's it's [37:16] basically our take on um aentic coding [37:20] environment for building mobile apps [37:24] using native PHP. Um, and it it was [37:30] it was like a sudden brainchild. I mean, [37:32] we talked about it again. It's one of [37:34] these things that we had conversations [37:36] of uh of like stuff that we might like [37:38] to do at some point in the future. Um, [37:41] but I was actually having um a couple of [37:44] I was having calls with my dad. My my [37:47] dad has suddenly got into coding. He's [37:49] like 70 and he but not really coding, [37:53] you know, he's just discovered the AI [37:55] tools and uh and started like I can [37:58] build apps now, which is great. I love [38:00] it. Uh because the the the last thing [38:04] that he did before that was like the [38:06] closest thing to that was H writing a [38:08] little bit of HTML. and now he's like [38:11] producing full-blown apps, you know, and [38:14] of course they use things like React and [38:17] other horrible tools not [laughter] [38:20] related to PHP, but um I I managed to [38:25] sort of steer him towards [38:27] uh a few of the tools that I'm more [38:29] familiar with and and he's been building [38:31] stuff in those as well and he's been [38:32] building some mobile apps and, you know, [38:34] he's doing all these different things [38:35] which is really really cool. I'm like [38:38] watching him go through the process of [38:40] setting some of this stuff up and I'm [38:42] I'm thinking about like what I find [38:45] really really useful and why those tools [38:47] are really easy to use um and enjoyable [38:52] and and I'm just like it's just too [38:55] difficult for normies to to build with [38:59] this stuff at the moment. Like there's a [39:01] lot of hurdles that you've got to step [39:03] over. But then I'm like, well, our goal [39:07] is not really ever to build tools to [39:10] bring any any person into this. Um, but [39:15] it's still uh there's still like a [39:17] hurdle even if you're a developer, [39:18] right? You've still got to install tools [39:22] on your system that are like multiple [39:24] gigabytes to download. They take [39:27] configuration that can take hours or [39:29] days to get right. And then you know if [39:33] your machine is performant enough to run [39:35] all of these things so that you can [39:37] actually start building and start [39:39] testing then [39:42] good job but it's still going to take a [39:44] lot of time. And what we what we [39:47] realized was that if you if you just [39:49] kind of have an environment ready to go [39:53] and you throw all of the tools together [39:54] in one place, [39:57] you can get to building apps way way [39:59] faster. uh like it because of the way [40:03] that we provision the environments you [40:05] don't even have to wait for like [40:07] composer install of Laravel you don't [40:09] have to wait for composer install of [40:11] native PHP and within it's usually [40:15] within a minute the environment is ready [40:17] to start receiving prompts and then we [40:20] focus less on like writing code and more [40:23] on just using an LLM to make all of the [40:27] changes for you and so then you is [40:29] literally prompting this isolated [40:33] environment to go and build your [40:35] application for you and it's showing you [40:38] a preview as it's making changes. I [40:40] would love to demo it, but [laughter] I [40:42] can't because it's been broken. But um [40:48] >> yeah, it's it's so it's cool because you [40:52] know like if you're getting if you're [40:54] just like dipping your toe in this space [40:57] of like using clawed code um opus you [41:01] know like to to start building apps um [41:05] now you can do it without any of the [41:06] setup. [41:08] You can just toy around for a bit and if [41:10] you get a if you get a Bifrost [41:12] subscription, [41:14] you can then export all of the code that [41:16] it's created for you to your GitHub [41:20] account. So then you can go and do [41:22] whatever you want to do with it. Like [41:24] you don't have to you don't have to use [41:26] that tool at all if you don't don't want [41:29] to continue with that. So it's it's even [41:32] just like a great way to start a project [41:34] and get you off the ground and and [41:36] running. [41:38] But then it's plugged into all of the [41:39] other things like you can build through [41:42] Bifrost from there. So you can actually [41:43] take it to the store from Mimi. You can [41:46] uh build it for Jump and so then you [41:49] just scan the QR code from Mimi and it's [41:51] running on your phone and you haven't [41:53] had to install a thing on your laptop. [41:55] So I think that's really cool. We're [41:58] going to get it working properly again [42:00] soon. And then [clears throat] [42:02] you know even better. [42:03] >> I was going to say the the dashboard is [42:05] working. I can't like type into the [42:06] input at the moment. I could show that [42:08] if you guys want to see that and just [42:10] see a little bit. Yeah. You want to see [42:12] it? All right. [42:12] >> Yeah. Yeah. Let's see it. [42:15] >> Here we go. [42:16] >> Is it demoing your app? [42:19] >> Uh this is uh this is the app that I [42:21] always kind of play with, but it's like [42:22] right now I can't even type in to this. [42:24] I don't know if I could use my voice. Uh [42:27] but either way, um this came in with [42:30] just a prompt. So here's the initial [42:32] prompt. I said, "Make me an iPhone [42:34] calculator clone." but make it Mother's [42:35] Day themed. And now it doesn't look [42:37] Mother's Day themed obviously because I [42:39] told it to um make it St. Patty's Day [42:42] themed instead someplace else. So just [42:44] change the theme. And yeah, that was [42:47] that was kind of it. You have all sorts [42:49] of tooling here on the side. So we can [42:51] actually look at the files. So here's [42:52] all the Laravel files. You can see [42:54] everything. Man, Simon, you did a bangup [42:57] job on this. I'm really happy to see all [42:59] this stuff. It's really cool. [43:01] >> Uh so you can browse everything here. It [43:02] connects directly to GitHub. So I can [43:05] see it on GitHub. I can disconnect it. I [43:07] can make a new branch and work on a [43:09] different branch if I want to. I can [43:10] make a pull request from that branch [43:12] into my branch. [43:13] >> Um I don't know what view project. Oh, [43:15] that's looking at it on by frost. So [43:17] once it's attached to the Bifrost, then [43:20] >> you can do that. Um and then here it is. [43:23] You can preview it on device. So this [43:24] will actually create that um the QR code [43:28] for jump. [43:31] And I mean, I don't know how well you'll [43:32] see this on the screen, but I'll go [43:34] ahead and scan this. In fact, if you [43:37] have the Jump app installed at home, uh, [43:40] technically, you could scan that right [43:42] now. [43:43] >> It would work. [43:44] >> Uh, so let me go back to here and show [43:48] my [43:53] All right, you see my video again. [43:56] >> So, here's here it is. It's just scanned [43:59] and it's downloaded and it's giving me [44:00] this little prompt of like, hey, when [44:02] you're when you go into the app, if you [44:04] want to exit, use three fingers to [44:06] escape. And so I say, "Got it." And [44:08] there's my little [44:10] >> St. Patty's Day calculator. It's kind of [44:12] bright there. Sorry. I apologize for [44:14] that. [44:14] >> That's okay. [44:15] >> Um, [44:16] >> we we get the gist. [44:18] >> What's What's 0.1 plus 0.2? [44:22] >> I don't know what not means, but I'm [44:23] going to do nine times not whatever [44:25] Java. [44:25] >> I'm American. [laughter] [44:28] So now do 0.1 plus 0.2. I just want to [44:32] see if it's caught the obvious error. [44:35] >> Negative 0.1. [44:38] What is it? [44:39] >> Plus 0.2 [44:41] >> plus positive 0.2. [44:42] >> Yeah. [44:45] >> Uh we're going to hit equals in a [44:47] second. [44:50] >> Yeah. It hasn't manage floating point [44:52] errors yet, but I'm sure you could tell [44:54] it to. [44:55] >> I probably could tell it to. So, uh, so [44:57] I'll just use this is if you want to [44:59] see, um, uh, jump while we're here. So, [45:02] I just use those three fingers to swipe [45:04] away. So, these are all the Mimi apps [45:06] that I've got installed. Here's like [45:08] local development stuff. What's really [45:09] nice is even after you walk away, you [45:11] disconnect from your local network. [45:13] Those files remain inside of the app. [45:15] So, I can, if I want to demo this to a [45:17] client or something, I can just flash it [45:18] to my phone and I can take it to them [45:21] and I can show them. Uh, and then by [45:23] frost. Um, if I'm on by frost, I'll just [45:27] scroll down to this one on the bottom [45:28] here. I'm gonna say run. [45:32] And then I can see all the different [45:33] branches that I've got up there. I can [45:36] just click one of them and say download [45:38] and run. And it's going to create this [45:40] build in the back end with AWS code [45:42] builds. Uh, since it's already done [45:44] that, it knows that it's already got one [45:45] there for this commit. Uh, so that [45:47] commit hash, it's already got a a zip [45:50] uh, you know, related to it. so it [45:51] doesn't have to rebuild it every single [45:53] time. Uh, and there we go. So, we've got [45:55] the actual uh thing here and this is [45:58] like fully functional. So, there's the [46:00] camera and I can take pictures and it's [46:02] all native stuff and good to go. [46:06] >> Badass. [46:07] >> That's incredible. Yeah, you should be. [46:11] You really should be. Um, so I have a [46:13] question uh for in regards to the Mimi. [46:18] Um yeah, so I [46:20] >> I'll give you a bit of I've I've been [46:22] building a web application uh for some [46:25] time now. I'm looking to create a mobile [46:28] version of that. Um my what I've started [46:32] to do was to [46:35] excuse [clears throat] me is on my on my [46:38] local machine I've got a a fold [46:40] directory with that project in and then [46:43] a new so two Laravel projects. one is [46:45] the web, one is the mobile and I'm [46:47] running claude within that directory. [46:49] So, it's got access to both those uh re [46:53] repos and I'm kind of saying right okay [46:56] now let's let's have a look at this and [46:57] let's transfer what we've done here for [46:59] this feature and make it work in the [47:01] mobile app. Can Mimi access your access [47:05] other um [47:08] repos on GitHub and do a similar thing? [47:11] So if I say can you go and look at my [47:12] repo here this is a web application I [47:15] want to start building the mobile [47:17] version of this [47:20] >> could it do that [47:21] >> principally it would be able to do that [47:24] it can't do that right now because it's [47:26] built around uh just interfacing with a [47:29] single repository a single project [47:32] >> um [47:33] >> but you know yeah if there was enough [47:36] demand for that kind of a feature and it [47:40] made sense to, you know, build all of [47:42] that, which I I can't imagine it would [47:45] be that much. I you basically just [47:47] giving the LLM [47:50] wider [47:52] circle of things to go and reach into. [47:54] So, you know, it it wouldn't be like a [47:58] ton of of stuff to do, but um in theory, [48:02] >> it sounds like [48:03] >> any of that stuff. [48:06] >> It sounds like it'd be pretty much the [48:08] same as AD directory in Claude Code. [48:12] It's similar. You'd have to clone that [48:14] repository first, obviously, and then [48:16] you could reference it. Sure. [48:18] >> Kind of. Yeah, [48:20] >> you could. [48:20] >> Um, yeah, I there's a few ways that you [48:23] could cut it. And I think that it would [48:26] be [48:27] interesting to see uh [48:31] how people like to approach it. you [48:33] know, I'd love [48:34] >> to talk to somebody who was like [48:36] >> determined to make that workflow work [48:39] for them if it was that sort of [48:41] powerful. Um, [48:42] >> I do see like a really good edge case [48:45] for if you already have a native PHP [48:47] mobile app in GitHub and perhaps even on [48:50] Bifrost to bring that into Mimi. [48:52] >> Um, so it's a different use case than to [48:55] reference a non-native PHP app. But if [48:58] I've already got one, here's a GitHub [48:59] repository. Just build it off of that [49:01] and then I can start vibe coding on that [49:02] same thing. The thing is if you're using [49:04] an anthropic key, which you need for [49:06] Mimi, you can just do that locally [49:08] anyway. So I don't know how much value [49:10] it's actually adding for the developer. [49:13] >> Okay, fair enough. [49:17] >> Cool. Um, okay. So is there I think [49:21] that's was that everything that you [49:22] announced at the beginning of the month? [49:24] >> Was that everything? plugins mimi free [49:28] open source [49:30] >> not not quite because we've had a couple [49:32] of things come out since then. Um so rel [49:36] back to plugins we um something that [49:40] Shane's been working on very you know [49:43] heavily as part of building out the [49:44] plug-in functionality is actually a [49:47] claude clo claude code plugin [49:51] uh which we're calling our plug-in dev [49:54] kit. So, what actually going back to [49:58] plugins in general, you know, we talk [49:59] about the the premium plugins and we [50:01] we've had people say, "Oh, you know, uh [50:04] it's a bit it's weird now that this is [50:06] free and that you've got these paid [50:08] plugins and it's, you know, we say, [50:10] well, that does help support the [50:11] project." But the other side to that is, [50:14] well, if if you want to, you can just go [50:17] and build all of that functionality [50:18] yourself. like it's that open that if [50:21] you really didn't want to pay like $29 [50:24] or $49 for a plugin, then you can skip [50:28] all of that. You can just go and build [50:30] it. Um, but where the plug-in devkit [50:34] comes in, so if you if you don't know [50:37] Swift and you don't know Cotlin or you [50:39] don't want to write in multiple [50:41] languages and you still want to build [50:43] for multiple platforms, [50:45] this will help you get going if you're [50:47] using clawed code. So [50:50] >> it it literally just plugs right into [50:54] the Claude code. You know, Claude's got [50:56] all of this stuff built into it to like [51:00] install their plugins. [51:02] And then once that's in place, and you [51:04] kind of give the prompt that says, I [51:07] want to build a plugin for native PHP. [51:09] It's going to start asking you all the [51:11] questions and prompting you around the [51:13] stuff that you need to think about uh [51:16] and how you want the thing to work and [51:17] which uh dependencies from Swift package [51:20] manager or cocoa pods or gradal you want [51:24] to use and all of that kind of thing and [51:26] then it brings it all together. Um, and [51:29] it will do I think I I haven't done that [51:32] many plugins with it yet because I've [51:35] been focusing on other things, but I [51:37] Shane's done a ton. [51:39] >> I do them like every day. I do them like [51:41] every day and I just throw them away [51:42] because really I'm just like building [51:44] what I want to build and then [51:45] >> whatever. Uh, they take time, right? [51:48] It's like 10 minutes to build a plugin. [51:51] >> For the most part, it's it's it's like [51:52] one prompt. Almost almost every single [51:54] time it's a one shot uh to to get it to [51:57] work. um maybe a couple. Sometimes [52:00] there's like a build failure, so you [52:01] just copy and paste the build failure [52:02] back into [52:04] >> the uh the model and it just fixes it [52:06] and you're good to go. And it's it's [52:08] it's pretty badass. Yeah. [52:11] >> Um one thing just to on plugins, if I [52:15] correct me if I'm wrong, is it a onetime [52:19] payment and you can use it for as many [52:21] apps as you want? [52:22] >> Forever. Yep. There's no subscription. [52:24] There's no limits. Yep. [52:26] >> Yep. Yep. Cool. [52:29] Um, okay. Well, I think we've pretty [52:32] much covered everything that was in that [52:33] that announcement and you all you guys [52:36] are coming out with more. So, there's [52:37] always announcements. I can't keep up [52:39] with you. There's always something new [52:41] new uh coming in. So, is there any [52:43] anything else that's uh that you want to [52:45] mention that's you've released since [52:48] since the beginning of the month? [52:51] It's a couple uh patches that we've [52:53] released, but no, we're we're right now [52:55] we're focusing on Simon uh Simon's got a [52:58] talk at PHP UK in a couple days and then [53:00] a week later at Larconu. Uh I've also [53:04] been blessed with a speaking uh slot at [53:06] Laracanu as well. So, we're preparing [53:09] for that. Um and also kind of like [53:11] preparing mentally for when we return [53:14] from that trip. Um [53:16] >> because it's it's kind of game on. We've [53:18] got about two and a half months or so [53:20] until PHP Tech in Chicago and Laravel [53:23] Live Japan, which are backtoback for me. [53:25] I'm flying right from Chicago to Tokyo [53:28] and then um coming back from that [53:32] uh we've got about a month and a half [53:34] until Laracon US and we're doing [53:37] something special. So, I guess this is [53:38] an announcement uh that we made the [53:40] other day. [snorts] Um, if you've ever [53:44] been to Laracon US, you know how [53:47] exciting or any Laracon, I would say. [53:49] It's probably true for almost every [53:50] Laracon. You know, after two days of of [53:53] talks and being around like-minded [53:55] people, it is just you are just flowing [53:58] with ideas and vibing and we've been [54:02] thinking about this for a long time like [54:03] how to how to capitalize on that. I [54:05] don't mean in a financial gain sort of [54:07] capitalization, but like how can we [54:09] expand upon that? And I think if Shane [54:13] and Simon, who were nobody two years [54:15] ago, did what we're doing now, it would [54:17] have flopped. And we still run the risk [54:19] of that to be honest, but uh we're doing [54:22] what we're calling a day three for [54:24] Laracon. So, a mile away from Laracon in [54:26] Boston, uh, in US, uh, on the third day [54:30] from, I think it's 9:00 a.m. till 400 [54:32] p.m., we're hosting a we're calling it [54:35] the vibes. Let's keep the vibes going. [54:36] So, it's not we're not like doing any [54:39] big talks or big announcements uh or [54:42] releases or anything like that from [54:43] native PHP. We're just hosting this [54:45] environment. Uh, we put the deposit down [54:47] on the venue, which was pretty [54:49] nerve-wracking, and uh we're getting [54:51] catering. And so let the coffee and Coke [54:54] Zeros flow all day long. Buy a ticket. [54:56] We're selling tickets for 89 bucks. [54:58] That's going to go up to I think 129 [55:00] after [55:01] >> March. [55:02] >> Um and that's really we're just trying [55:04] to not go broke [laughter] on the event. [55:07] Uh it's it's not cheap, but um we're not [55:10] looking to to gain anything is what I'm [55:12] trying to get at. We're we're just [55:13] hoping to cover the cost of it with [55:15] that. And um yeah, I think we're [55:17] limiting it to 100 or 120 people, [55:19] something like that. Um, and we think [55:22] that's doable given that there's going [55:24] to be about 12 to 1300 people at Laracon [55:26] this year. So, um, we're pretty excited [55:29] about that. We really want people to [55:31] start buying tickets for that. Please, [55:33] um, we've sold a few. That's great. But, [55:36] um, we need to sell quite a few more. [55:39] Please buy tickets. If you think you're [55:42] going to go, just buy a ticket. And [55:43] then, uh, if you don't go, that's okay. [55:45] You helped a good cause. [55:48] >> [laughter] [55:50] >> just put the link on the screen. It's [55:52] nativephp.comthe-vibes. [55:56] >> Thank you so much. Yep. It's going to be [55:58] awesome. The venue is beautiful. It's [56:00] beautiful. Gorgeous. If you scroll down [56:01] to the bottom of that, there's some uh [56:04] real pictures of a real place, not AI, [56:07] not Nana Banana or whatever. [laughter] [56:10] >> Yeah, I think I guess. Well, you you've [56:14] kind of answered my uh my next question [56:16] because I've seen you've been doing [56:17] quite a few talks recently and what I [56:19] was going to ask what you've got coming [56:20] up. So, we know Simon, you're going to [56:22] be in Are you Did you say you're already [56:24] in London at the moment? [56:25] >> I am. Yeah. [56:27] >> Yeah. You're already there. So, we'll be [56:29] joining you on Friday. We'll be coming [56:31] down to uh PHP UK. Anyone else that's [56:34] coming down, do come and say hello to us [56:36] or we'll me and Chris will have loads of [56:38] stickers and things to give out as well. [56:40] if you like stickers. Um, [56:42] >> come and say hi. Come and say hi to [56:44] Simon. And uh, [56:46] >> yeah, that'll be that'll be uh, cool. [56:50] Um, it's we think, did you say it's a [56:52] three three track this year? [56:54] >> Three track. One day three track. [56:56] >> Lots of really good talks. Friend of [56:59] ours, Sarah, um, the one the internals [57:02] will be there. I can't remember. She's [57:04] gonna kill me, but I can't remember what [57:06] her talk is. [57:08] >> Chris can't remember. So, he's looking [57:10] it up to make it look like he's [57:12] remembered, [laughter] [57:14] >> but I let I'll let him look it look it [57:16] up. I've not I'll be honest, I've not [57:17] looked at the full list of speakers yet. [57:20] So, I'll need to do that soon to decide [57:21] where I'm going. [57:23] >> There's a lot of good people on there. [57:25] Yeah, it looks like it's going to be a [57:27] really good event. The thing like I find [57:29] with the with the multi-track events [57:32] though is I I never get to see all of [57:36] the talks that I would like to see. [57:38] >> Mhm. And yeah, I'm I I'm also much more [57:43] of a fan of the social aspects rather [57:46] than the talks, which is why, you know, [57:49] with our day three thing, the the vibes [57:52] is [57:53] >> a social thing and not a talks thing [57:55] because it's that extended opportunity [57:58] to chat rather than, you know, I think [58:02] you can learn a lot from just sitting at [58:04] a table with a bunch of smart people. [58:07] And I'm not not well I I obviously need [58:10] to plug this as well, but uh I [58:12] completely agree with what you're saying [58:14] and I think that's why I love uh tech so [58:17] much that it's a three-day. There is [58:19] three tracks, well four tracks if you [58:21] now count the the JS tech as well. [58:25] >> Um yeah, [58:26] >> but if you've got a ticket, you get [58:28] access to all of those videos. We record [58:30] everything everything streamed for [58:33] anyone who has a virtual ticket. So, if [58:34] you've got a ticket or um you're [58:36] involved in some way, you'll have access [58:37] to all those talks because we know you [58:39] can't get to all the talks. Um but on [58:42] all three evenings, there's a lot of [58:45] socializing going on. There's a lot of [58:47] people just chatting about all sorts of [58:49] things. Um and playing games, uh [58:52] karaoke. [58:54] Um [58:55] >> yes, [58:55] >> and then the [58:58] going out. It [58:58] >> was awesome last year actually. [59:01] >> Sorry. [59:01] >> It was awesome. I was there last year. [59:03] It was my first time there. It was It [59:04] was awesome. [59:05] >> Yeah. Yeah. It's a It's a Everyone just [59:08] come because we're all contained in the [59:10] one most most of us all in the same [59:12] hotel. You you're you're in the got [59:14] rooms within the hotel. You just go [59:15] downstairs to the main room and we we're [59:17] all just sitting there running around. [59:19] People are playing [59:21] poker or where all sorts of things going [59:24] on. Um and if we're lucky, we get Sarah [59:27] up to sing karaoke. [laughter] [59:30] Um, [59:32] >> so that that's [59:32] >> Dungeons and Dragons campaign this year. [59:35] >> Oh, wow. [59:35] >> You are, aren't you? [59:36] >> Apparently. So, [59:37] >> yeah. You're you're doing you're running [59:39] a Dungeon and Dragons uh [59:41] >> full outfit dungeon master style. [59:45] >> Yeah. I mean, it sort of came about by [59:47] doing a talk for merge PHP last week and [59:50] I spoke on domain driven development in [59:53] PHP and I used DND as the example and [59:56] now for some reason I'm doing a DND [59:58] campaign in tech. There you go. Goes [60:01] both ways. That's cool. [60:03] >> So, yeah, like going back to what we [60:05] were saying, the social side of it of a [60:07] of a conference is is great. Um, so [60:11] yeah, so we'll I'm looking forward to [60:13] seeing you in person on Friday. [60:17] >> That'd be good. It'll be nice to meet [60:19] some of our listeners and followers as [60:21] well. Uh, anyone else that's down there. [60:23] And then, um, obviously saying we'll see [60:26] you in Chicago in May. May. [60:29] >> Yeah, that would be great. [60:30] >> We'll get some pizza hopefully. I went [60:32] to uh what was that place called? Not [60:34] Gerard Darnos. Uh sounds like [60:37] Illuminati. Illuminati. That's it. [60:39] Illuminati. [60:41] Oh my freaking god, dude. This pizza was [60:43] out of this world. That's like as soon [60:46] as like the CFP came up, I was like, I'm [60:48] going I'm I gotta go. I gotta go. [60:49] [laughter] [60:51] >> So good. Yeah, we um I remember we [60:55] so this year would be my third. Um but [60:58] the first year I when I was working for [61:00] Pitch Architect, they they flew me out [61:02] to work on it. We went to go and get [61:04] pizza on the on our last night and that [61:06] was get get proper Chicago pizza. That [61:10] was quite an experience. [61:12] >> Joe 100% agrees it is the best and [61:14] anyone who says different is incorrect. [61:19] >> No, no, no. He's [laughter] up in there. [61:21] Well, that [61:24] >> there you go. He's helping you out. [61:26] [laughter] [61:27] >> We'll have to go. All right, Joe, don't [61:29] be sick this year. We we'll have to [61:31] we'll have to arrange as a team. We'll [61:33] go over and get pizza. [61:35] >> Um yeah, one night as a team. Um yeah, [61:38] so that's that's some cool things to [61:40] look forward to. And then you're off to [61:43] you've got Oh, you've got before they [61:45] before tech you've you're off in um [61:49] Lavo EU. [61:51] >> Mhm. [61:52] >> That's Yeah, there's a couple months [61:53] between the two, but yeah. Um I'm [61:55] leaving next Friday is when I fly out. [61:58] So, [61:58] >> right. [62:00] >> Yeah, it's coming up quick. [62:01] >> I know. [62:03] >> Seems a lot a lot of the the conferences [62:05] are earlier on in the year. There's [62:07] quite a few [62:09] >> uh that sort of go through up until [62:11] about June I think is um Laive UK. It's [62:16] in June I think. [62:17] >> You guys want to hear something [62:18] hilarious [62:20] >> totally totally off the topic. So we do [62:23] there's like a quarterly um PHP upstate [62:25] they call it for South Carolina where I [62:28] live. It's about two hours away. Bden uh [62:30] Carchenko puts it on. Jason Begs lives a [62:33] couple hours away. He always comes. Uh [62:35] Matt Stopper shown up a couple times. [62:37] There's some few notables. Stephen Fox, [62:39] who was on the bucket with us. I think [62:41] he's I know he's going to be there. He's [62:42] got a room for the night. Um so I'm [62:46] taking my son out of school like an hour [62:48] early to bring him to bring him to this [62:50] and he's he's excited about it. What [62:52] I've done is in the Telegram group is [62:54] told everybody, let's do we got to prank [62:56] him somehow. And we were like floating [62:58] around ideas to prank my son. And I [63:00] think what we've agreed on is like we're [63:02] going to have like a video game [63:03] intervention. So, like as soon as we sit [63:05] down to start talking about like [63:07] announcements in the whole evening, [63:08] we're all just going to circle. It's [63:10] like 15 or 20 guys, right? Just circle [63:12] around my Sunday like, "Listen, your dad [63:14] loves you a whole lot. [laughter] [63:17] I cannot wait, dude. It's in two days on [63:19] Thursday. [laughter] I'm gonna try to [63:21] get on video. It's gonna be so funny." [63:23] >> And And how how old is your son? [63:26] >> He's 16. He's 16. [63:27] >> Oh, [clears throat] he's old enough to [63:29] take it then. [63:29] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He'll be fine. It's [63:31] not like four years old. That would be [63:32] [laughter] [63:33] It's going to be really cruel. [63:35] >> God, [63:37] >> I was just imagining like this [63:38] 10-year-old bursting into tears of the [63:40] idea of not being able to play games [63:42] anymore. [63:42] >> All your new uncles, you know. [63:44] [laughter] [63:46] >> No, he's he's he's got a good sense of [63:48] humor, too. He's going to get it. It'll [63:50] be funny. So, uh I thought I'd share. [63:54] >> We look forward to the video. [63:55] >> Yeah. [laughter] [63:56] >> You tormenting your son. [63:59] >> Yeah. And there's no chance he'll see [64:01] this. So, I'm I'm totally fine, you [64:04] know, talking about him. [64:05] >> There's no chance he'll see this unless [64:07] I find his socials and send it him. [64:09] >> He doesn't have any. He just doesn't do [64:11] socials. [laughter] Yeah. Good luck. [64:13] Yeah. If you can find it, share it with [64:15] me, man. That's like [laughter] I really [64:17] don't think he's on social. [64:18] >> You've just opened him up for a [64:20] challenge now. [64:21] >> Go for it. Please do. [laughter] Would [64:23] love it. I know he's on Discord. That's [64:26] the only thing that he does like that. [64:27] And he just talks to the same friends [64:29] over and over and YouTube. I don't think [64:31] that's social media, though. [64:33] >> I mean, at 16, probably something like [64:36] Fortnite or somewhere around that kind [64:38] of region. I'd find him on there. [64:39] >> He does video games, but not Fortnite. [64:41] No, I never got into that. [64:43] >> Call of Duty. [64:45] >> Nope. We We had a rule when he was [64:48] growing up like no shoot him up games. I [64:49] just was against like actual killing [64:52] stuff like that for the most part. And [64:54] then he did play a couple that were [64:55] like, "Wait, this is kill you're [64:57] killing." But it's like more cartoon [64:58] character kind of stuff. But uh so you [65:01] win some, you lose some, but he's never [65:02] done the Call of Duty. He's never done [65:04] the Fortnite stuff. Uh he does this one, [65:07] I mean, he's a brainiac, man. Um he does [65:10] this one where it's like a cube that's [65:11] like flashing across the screen. You [65:13] have to jump over like different [65:14] hurdles. I forget what it's called, but [65:16] it's like jumping up and down and like [65:18] you revert uh gravity and he's, you [65:20] know, you're stuck to the top and you [65:21] have to jump and it's very fast-paced [65:23] and uh he's kind of a wizard. [65:25] >> To be honest, it sounds like you're [65:26] describing Mario. [65:28] Not Mario. [laughter] [65:31] That is a square flashing across. It is [65:34] pretty close, actually. [laughter] [65:36] Mario 2. He has a dress now. Um, [65:40] [clears throat] no, he's uh he he's he [65:42] he does pretty good with what he does [65:44] do. He just sucks at doing his homework, [65:47] so he'll get hundreds on his test. If [65:49] you look at his grades, he's got a [65:50] hundred 97 or something in chemistry. [65:53] Advanced biochemics [65:56] with honors, something or other. He's [65:58] got but then you look advanced webpage [66:00] design. I will show his grades on [66:01] screen, dude. I have no shame about this [66:04] at all. Advanced webpage design. He's [66:06] got a 33. And I'm like, you are my kid, [66:08] dude. You [laughter] do not realize you [66:10] are failing miserably. Advanced web page [66:13] design. I'm like, what are you even [66:14] learning in that? He's like something [66:16] about like detecting the width of the [66:18] screen and like the media. I'm like [66:20] media queries. He's like, yeah, [66:22] responsive something. I'm like, yeah, [66:24] what the hell, [laughter] dude? I don't [66:26] know this stuff. something about a [66:28] viewport. I'm like, "Yes, [66:30] [laughter] it's crazy." [66:31] >> But then by the time [clears throat] [66:33] he's finished school and looking at a [66:35] career, he won't need any of that [66:36] anyway. [66:37] >> No. No. It's good to know the B. I mean, [66:39] just like what we do now, the more [66:41] >> the more we know like the better [66:43] developers we were like architecturally [66:45] and stuff, we know when to correct the [66:47] AI. people that are just vibe coding for [66:48] vibe coding sake. [66:50] >> I don't want to I'm scared to download [66:52] any software anywhere because I don't [66:54] know how much I can trust it if it was [66:56] really vibe coded like that. [66:59] >> So [66:59] >> yes, that's certainly certainly the the [67:01] hot hot topic. [67:03] >> It certainly is [67:04] >> about Yeah, vibe coing coding. Um it's [67:09] interesting because um for I don't know [67:12] if I've mentioned this to you guys when [67:14] you're on the show before. I'm actually [67:16] doing a uh CS degree at the moment [67:18] through the Open University. [67:20] >> Nice. [67:20] >> Oh, I think we did talk about this [67:22] because you're telling me to do my [67:24] assignment with P. [67:26] >> Yeah, [67:27] >> which I didn't in the end. I did [67:28] actually do it as I was supposed to. Um, [67:32] but I'm tempted to build the same the [67:34] same app in uh native PHP and see see [67:38] what it's like, see how much easier it [67:40] is and how much more I understand of the [67:42] actual code. Um but we there was [67:44] actually part of the assignment there is [67:46] there was a a question that I had to use [67:49] AI for and then you go through or you [67:51] learn all these um talked about um how [67:55] to [67:57] um verify all the references and things [67:59] like that. And all it was was I had to [68:01] ask it to write the first draft of a [68:05] report that I needed to add to the [68:08] assignment. So I got it to do it and [68:09] then I I basically rewrote the whole [68:11] thing just from what it churned out. Um [68:15] I just used more of the headings really. [68:18] Um but there was a whole section about [68:20] using it to vibe code. So even in the [68:23] degrees they're talking about vibe code [68:25] and they're telling you you've got to [68:27] you can't just rely on it. There are [68:30] there are mistakes. You've got to verify [68:32] everything. Uh, and yeah, when I've, as [68:37] I said at the beginning, the top of the [68:38] show that I've been using claw to to [68:40] build a couple of apps in um in native [68:44] PHP, I'm I'm looking at the code. I'm [68:46] always reviewing the code and going, do [68:48] I understand every line of that code? Do [68:50] I know what that is doing? If I don't, [68:52] then I'm checking it. Um, I'm never just [68:55] going, "Yeah, that's fine. That's fine. [68:57] That's fine." Um, the only time I do [68:58] that is when it's writing JavaScript, [69:00] but then I'm going to call Chris to [69:01] check it for me. he's going to he can [69:04] code check the the JavaScript for me [69:06] because I look at JavaScript and I just [69:08] don't know what's going on. But um [69:10] >> neither do most JavaScript developers. [69:13] [laughter] [69:14] >> Shush. We're supposed to be trying to [69:16] sell them JStech and now you're [69:17] >> that's why you're selling tickets to JS [69:19] so they can come and learn. [69:20] >> Come and learn. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean [69:23] it I do I do um exaggerate the the my [69:27] skills with not not exaggerate my [69:30] exaggerate my hateful JS for JavaScript. [69:33] But the the important message is is you [69:37] vibe code. You can't just vibe code. You [69:39] got as you say you've got to have that [69:42] fundamental knowledge of development and [69:44] understand when you look at things it [69:47] does it doesn't look right. And there's [69:49] been times when I've done it and I've [69:50] looked at things and thought, I don't [69:52] remember that function ever being in [69:54] PHP. Look it up. And lo and behold, it's [69:57] not in PHP. It doesn't exist. It because [70:00] of the where it's learning how to code. [70:03] There's what the biggest place is [70:06] probably Stack Overflow. [70:07] >> And let's have a look at Stack Overflow. [70:09] The ratio of good answers to bad [70:12] answers. [70:15] And and then you get responses from [70:17] Claude as well when it does something [70:19] like that and invents a function. You're [70:21] absolutely right. And why did you use it [70:24] in the first place? [laughter] [70:27] >> I I'm not finding that really honestly [70:30] at all doing Laravel stuff with it. I I [70:34] don't know whether it's the the tools. [70:37] Maybe it's also just like a lot of the [70:39] things that we've been doing recently [70:40] have been very green fields rather than [70:43] like [70:43] >> brownfield projects. But [70:46] >> I do I do have a sense that um there's [70:50] something about like wellestablished [70:53] tools like Laravel [70:55] >> and the tooling. Yeah. well doumented [70:58] uh lots of examples of of wellbuilt [71:01] projects in open-source code that the [71:04] LLM have been able to troll through [71:06] >> that just makes it a lot more reliable, [71:09] you know, to to go and build on top of [71:12] using the LLM. [71:14] Um, yeah, I'm but that's [71:18] purely anecdotal because I just don't [71:22] I'm not working on lots of other [71:24] projects and that kind of thing. [71:26] >> There's a there's another point there [71:27] too. My dad is also he's getting into [71:30] open claw. He hasn't touched a computer [71:31] in like a year and a half or something. [71:33] Um, and I last time I saw him I gave him [71:36] one of my old MacBooks and so he's like [71:37] fished it out. He's like I don't have to [71:38] buy a Mac Mini and he's like playing [71:40] with us and he's loving it. He's got a [71:42] SSH to an old Windows box that's got [71:45] Linux a Linux box up and so he's having [71:48] it do some stuff there and it's talking [71:50] back and forth whatever. But he's [71:52] telling me like like as he's telling me [71:55] this, I had it like sharply like that's [71:57] not how you talk to AI because he is [72:00] like it'll go and do something and it [72:02] will completely forget something. And [72:04] it's like gaslighting him into thinking [72:06] that it's doing something right. And [72:08] then his response to it, what his words [72:11] to me were was, "You always do that and [72:14] I I don't like it when you do that." And [72:16] it's like, "Yeah, you're right. I'm [72:18] sorry. I'll change. That'll be the last [72:20] time." And I'm like, "Dad, that is [72:21] wrong. You can't. You're almost [72:23] affirming it by saying that. You have to [72:25] correct it. You have to say, don't do [72:28] that anymore. Not point out the bad [72:30] behavior. Pointing out the bad behavior [72:32] does not tell it to fix itself. Tell it [72:34] to fix itself." You know what I mean? [72:36] >> And so, he's gotten a little bit uh [72:38] better results with with just changing [72:40] the mindset, but he's very good at [72:41] complaining. Loves to complain. And so, [72:44] I think that's what he's like, "Don't be [72:45] dumb. Just don't be like, "Sorry, I [72:48] won't be dumb anymore." or like it's you [72:49] haven't fixed a thing, you [laughter] [72:50] know, [72:52] >> don't be dumb. [72:53] >> I mean, my my example of finding it or [72:57] trying to write things with functions [72:59] that don't exist is I haven't had that [73:02] for a while. I think um like you're [73:04] saying with Simon with uh things like [73:06] Laravel now with Laravel Boost, [73:09] it has [clears throat] massively [73:10] improved the way that we can use um use [73:14] AI to build things. But you still we [73:17] still need that fundamental [73:19] understanding of programming to to be [73:21] able to do that. Um unfortunately I [73:24] think we might have lost Simon [73:27] that way. [73:28] >> He looks great. [73:29] >> He's borrowed Eric's connection. [73:32] [laughter] [73:33] >> He's like I'm just gonna pause and think [73:37] about the master of statues. [73:40] >> I'm looking at the plants and the plants [73:42] moving. No, I think he's frozen. I [73:45] [snorts] think we've lost him. On that [73:46] note, I think we should probably wrap [73:48] things up now. Um, [73:51] so, uh, thank you very much for for [73:54] joining us. Um, [73:57] >> thanks for having us. [73:59] >> Yeah, it's been [74:00] >> I mean, we're always looking for [74:00] opportunities to to get the word out [74:02] there. So, we appreciate another [74:03] platform. [74:04] >> Yeah. And the speed the speed you guys [74:06] are turning things out and and improving [74:08] things. Um, [74:09] >> we'll see you at the end of March. [74:11] >> Yeah. [laughter] We'll have you on again [74:13] again. Um, but excited to to meet you [74:17] properly in uh in May at uh [74:20] >> should be fun [74:21] >> PHP Tech. That'll be awesome. Um, if [74:24] Simon can hear us, we'll see him on [74:26] Friday. [laughter] [74:28] >> I don't know if he can hear us or not. [74:29] Um, [74:29] >> hopefully hopefully he'll see him on [74:31] Friday. [laughter] [74:35] >> He'll be still in that statue like that. [74:37] He won't be. [74:38] >> Oh god. [74:40] >> I'm the sole owner now of native PHP. [74:42] They're still a lot maintainer, I guess. [74:44] Yeah. [74:45] >> Well, surely then there's a bit of money [74:46] now to hire PP architect. [74:48] >> Exactly. Exactly. We can [74:50] >> Yeah, [laughter] [74:53] >> there you go. [74:54] >> So, if if anyone hadn't realized that we [74:57] are also a a studio and do uh client [75:00] work um [75:02] >> which apparently some people don't [75:03] realize we it's not just a magazine, not [75:05] just a conference and podcast. We we [75:08] actually do code [75:10] >> on a daily basis. most of us. [75:13] >> Um Oh, Simon has [75:15] >> Simon has returned. [75:20] >> Let's bring you back in. [75:21] >> Hey. [75:22] >> Hey. [laughter] [75:25] >> Was it like this is the sound? [75:26] >> Yeah, it's pretty close. Yeah, [75:29] [laughter] [75:29] >> that was pretty. That's okay. Um [75:32] [clears throat] okay, we're just just [75:34] wrapping up. So, Simon, thank you very [75:35] much for joining us uh this evening. uh [75:37] look forward to uh meeting you in person [75:40] on on Friday and chatting with you. Um [75:42] however, I think there's going to be a [75:44] bit of a fight for your time. I could [75:46] imagine you're going to be quite popular [75:47] on Friday. [75:48] >> So, [75:49] >> he's popular today. [75:50] >> Well, yeah, I know. [laughter] [75:52] Do you know what I mean? There's going [75:55] to be a lot of people there in person [75:57] that would like to pull him aside and [75:59] bend about things. [76:01] >> I'm I'm sure there will be Yeah. the the [76:04] small groups hovering and then plucking [76:07] up the courage to come and say hello [76:09] which I will welcome. Uh it's not it's [76:12] not going to hold a candle to what [76:14] happened in India which was just [76:17] stream of people crowds of people coming [76:20] up everyone asking multiple questions at [76:23] the same time. [laughter] [76:25] >> So uh it'll be fine. I think it'll be [76:28] all right. [76:29] >> Are you staying in London Friday night? [76:31] Are you going to be around for the [76:32] social afterwards? [76:34] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [76:35] >> Yeah. That'll be that'll be a good time [76:36] to to bend your ear a bit once we've all [76:38] got beers in us. [76:41] >> Yeah. [76:41] >> So, yeah. Uh it' be great to see some [76:43] some people there. As me me and Chris [76:46] will also be there. We'll be bringing [76:48] some stickers down if you like stickers. [76:50] Um we got big we got flashy business [76:53] cards as well now to [76:55] >> you can't exactly miss us in a crowd, [76:57] can you? [76:57] >> No, we will be we'll be wearing these [76:59] tops. So, if you're looking for us, just [77:01] look for the orange dots, [77:02] >> the parking attendants. We [laughter] [77:04] can only try. We can only try, Chris. [77:07] >> Well, [77:09] anyway, um, thank you again, you two, [77:12] for for joining us this evening. Um, [77:14] it's always great fun having you on and [77:16] chatting about all the cool stuff that [77:17] you're doing [77:18] >> in the PHP world at the moment. Um, [77:20] thank you everyone for listening. Um, do [77:23] remember though, we uh do have our [77:25] Discord channel. It's not just for [77:27] whilst we're live. you can join in the [77:30] chat all um all week long. There's all [77:33] sorts of people in there. Um all four of [77:36] us are in there. I think Simon, you're [77:38] in our in our Discord, aren't you? Yeah. [77:40] So, if you've got any more any more [77:42] questions then, um yeah, pop them in our [77:44] Discord and someone will definitely [77:46] answer them. There's all sorts of people [77:48] in there, package maintainers, uh people [77:50] in PHP internals. Um so, there's some [77:54] amazing questions and conversations go [77:56] on week weekly. [77:59] Yeah. [78:00] >> Yep. [78:01] >> And next week we have another guest. He [78:04] should have been on last week and wasn't [78:06] well. [78:07] >> So we've got Ben Ramsey with us next [78:09] week. So we're gonna [78:11] >> Gordon Ramsey. [78:12] >> No. [laughter] [78:15] >> Yeah, we're not that high pro yet. [78:17] >> Wow. [78:17] >> I mean, if Gordon Ramsey did start as a [78:20] footballer, then became a cook. So if we [78:22] can convince him to start doing code, we [78:24] can probably get him on. [78:26] [laughter] [78:29] Oh dear. Yeah. So Ben Ben Ramsey um he's [78:33] he will be joining us next week. We'll [78:35] be talking about what we talking about [78:38] um [78:39] contributing to PHP. [78:41] >> Contributing to PHP RFC's all of that [78:44] kind [78:45] >> process. [78:46] >> And I'm also going to grill him to [78:47] explain the entirety of UUID in one [78:50] minute. [78:51] >> Well, that's that's a bit mean, but [78:53] hopefully he's listening. So he's now [78:54] got a week to prepare that one minute [78:56] talk. [laughter] Could you just imagine [78:59] an elevator pitch for a UU ID though [79:03] >> if if you don't know Ben Ben is the [79:05] creator of the UID package that pretty [79:08] much everyone uses in PHP. [79:11] Um just to let you know. Um yes. So [79:14] that's our Discord. If you're on our [79:16] YouTube channel, please do like and [79:17] subscribe. Help us get these videos out [79:19] to more people in the in the universe. [79:23] Um, don't forget we've got our magazine [79:25] discount. A live three will give you the [79:27] first three months of our annual digital [79:30] subscription to our magazine PHP [79:33] Architect where we talk about lots of [79:36] things mainly all about PHP and [79:38] development things all around. Um, don't [79:42] forget tickets for PHP tech uh still [79:46] available. Um, do come and join us as we [79:48] talked about earlier. It's one of it's [79:51] one of my favorite um conferences. Uh [79:53] just a lot of it purely because of the [79:55] socializing as we said. Um but there'll [79:58] be some amazing talks. Uh all the all [80:00] the talk speakers have been announced. [80:02] You can go. Has his schedule been [80:04] announced or is it? I don't think the [80:06] schedule's out yet. [80:08] >> Don't know. [80:08] >> Anyway, um JStech will be also running [80:11] for the first time ever alongside PHP [80:14] Tech. And as we've mentioned, if you buy [80:16] a ticket, you can go to either one of [80:17] the talks. don't not penned into one [80:20] side of the talk. So we we are we've got [80:24] so basically it's four tracks I think. [80:26] >> Mhm. [80:28] >> Unless John's miscounted and invited too [80:30] many speakers again which he has done. [80:34] He's got form for that. But uh yeah [80:36] that'll be there'll be four uh four [80:38] tracks. One track will be dedicated [80:40] solely to JavaScript. Uh, don't forget [80:43] to head head over to our swag store [80:47] where you can pick up some pretty cool [80:49] t-shirts, hats. Um, there's some cups, [80:52] mugs, and all sorts of things there. Uh, [80:54] so do head over and see uh see what you [80:57] can grab there. Uh, once again, thank [81:00] you very much for giving us your time uh [81:03] this evening. And uh don't forget [81:06] everyone. Yeah, the vibes after uh [81:10] Laravel. [81:14] >> Laracon US. [81:16] >> Oh, you should have let him dry. [81:18] >> Laracon US. I've just got really dry all [81:21] of a sudden. Um Laracon US. And that [81:25] that sounds like a really cool. If I [81:27] could get over there for that then I I'd [81:29] definitely be joining you. But uh I'm [81:31] not sure if I can make that journey. [81:33] Unfortunately, [81:33] >> food will be great. [81:36] the company too, I I think. [81:39] [laughter] [81:40] >> And if you haven't seen enough of Simon, [81:42] well, there's an entire course of him on [81:43] Lariccasts on that link right there. [81:50] Pph, which is a lot easier to read if [81:53] you're on YouTube. [81:56] >> Yeah, I do have to remember we have some [81:57] audio listeners only and we never always [82:00] read out all the links that we put up. [82:01] So, if you're listening and we haven't [82:02] read out some, go to YouTube, watch the [82:04] video. Whilst you're there, like and [82:06] subscribe. Thank you very much. [82:07] >> And whilst you're there, give the video [82:09] a thumbs up. [82:12] >> Well, that's liking it. I've said that [82:14] bit, but never mind. [82:15] >> Oh, but John calls it thumbs up, not [82:17] like. [82:18] >> Oh, okay. Thumb thumb thumbs up it and [82:21] like it and subscribe to the channel. [82:25] >> It sounds painful. [laughter] [82:28] depends on London. I guess [82:31] >> on that note, I'm going to say good [82:34] night [82:35] if I can find the right outro. Good [82:38] night, guys. Thank you very much.  [[3. Resources/Readwise/Full Document Contents/Articles/PHP Alive and Kicking Episode 23 Native PHP|Full Document Contents]] ## Document Notes --- tags: #native-php #mobile-development #laravel #plugins #php-mobile author: PHP Architect source: YouTube reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEYeTa_9qhY date created: 2024-12-19 14:30 --- # 🏷️ Title: PHP Alive And Kicking: Episode 23 Native PHP ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Test Native PHP Jump app for QR-based mobile development — immediate #mobile-development - [H2] Explore Native PHP plugin marketplace for project needs — week 2 #plugins - [H3] Consider attending "The Vibes" day-three event at Laracon US — March deadline #events ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [[#📝 Summary]] - [[#📖 Main Content]] - [[#🗒️ Notes]] - [[#📚 References]] - [[#🗣️ Paraphrase]] - [[#📰 Newsletter]] - [[#✅ Action Items]] - [[#🧪 Hypotheses]] - [[#📊 Methodology]] - [[#❓ Questions]] - [[#🔮 Future Research]] - [[#💡 Implications]] - [[#🧠 Learning Styles Assessment]] - [[#📊 Accessibility Assessment]] - [[#🌍 DEIB Assessment]] - [[#✅ Logical Validity]] - [[#🛡️ DARVO Analysis]] - [[#🎯 Conclusion]] ### 🔗 References - [Native PHP](https://nativephp.com) - [PHP Architect Magazine](https://www.phparch.com) ## 📝 Summary - Native PHP announced going free and open source for mobile development - Major shift from paid licensing to plugin-based revenue model - New tools: Jump app for instant mobile testing and Mimi for AI-powered development environment - Plugin marketplace launched with free core plugins and premium options - Revenue model now relies on Bifrost deployment service and premium plugins ## 📖 Main Content Shane and Simon from Native PHP discuss their major announcement making Native PHP for mobile development free and open source. This represents a significant shift from their previous paid licensing model. The decision wasn't easy - they describe it as an emotional roller coaster with concerns about sustainability since they're both working full-time on the project. The new plugin architecture solves two critical problems: app bloat from unused features and App Store rejections due to undeclared permissions. Instead of bundling everything into core, developers now composer-require only the plugins they need. Free plugins include camera, microphone, device info, and file handling, while premium plugins cover security, push notifications, and biometrics. Two new tools launched alongside the announcement: Jump allows instant mobile testing by scanning QR codes to deploy Laravel apps directly to phones, while Mimi provides an AI-powered development environment that requires zero local setup. Both integrate with their Bifrost deployment service, which remains their primary revenue source alongside premium plugins. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and sponsorship mentions - Key idea: PHP Alive and Kicking podcast focusing on cool PHP developments - Evidence: "This is a podcast that talks about all the cool stuff happening in PHP" #### ⏱️ [15:23](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=923) — [H1] Native PHP goes free and open source - Key idea: Major announcement that Native PHP for mobile is now completely free - Evidence: "Native PHP for mobile now is free and open source. There's the big highlight." #### ⏱️ [16:45](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=1005) — [H2] Community awareness still low despite announcement - Key idea: Many developers still don't know PHP can build mobile apps - Evidence: "So many people are like wait you can do mobile from PHP like they didn't even know anything about this" #### ⏱️ [17:30](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=1050) — [H1] Emotional decision-making process - Key idea: Going free was an emotionally difficult business decision - Evidence: "A roller coaster to get to this point... one of us would be like 'Dude, we got to go free' and then two weeks later it's reversed" #### ⏱️ [21:15](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=1275) — [H1] Plugin architecture solving real problems - Key idea: Plugins prevent app bloat and App Store rejections from unused permissions - Evidence: "We had some of our users... getting their apps rejected from the app store because they don't have permission strings" #### ⏱️ [23:42](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=1422) — [H2] Plugin marketplace structure - Key idea: Mix of free core plugins and premium plugins for revenue - Evidence: "14 or 15 plugins... most of them are free. Some of the ones that people really ask for... we are charging for" #### ⏱️ [25:18](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=1518) — [H3] Third-party plugin ecosystem - Key idea: Community can build and sell plugins through their marketplace - Evidence: "Two or three dozen plugins already submitted to us that are just waiting for us to figure out legal and compliance" #### ⏱️ [27:30](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=1650) — [H1] Revenue model transparency - Key idea: Open about business sustainability challenges and revenue sources - Evidence: "We are both full-time on this project and from month to month it's like we're not sure if we're going to pay bills" #### ⏱️ [32:45](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=1965) — [H1] Jump app functionality - Key idea: QR code deployment for instant mobile testing without environment setup - Evidence: "You scan that with a Jump app and voila, your application is on the device... without having to configure your environment at all" #### ⏱️ [35:20](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=2120) — [H2] Jump integrates with Bifrost for team collaboration - Key idea: Team members can test each other's branches via cloud builds - Evidence: "Pull down all of your projects... pull that down all of the different branches... I can see all your changes" #### ⏱️ [38:15](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=2295) — [H3] Unexpected platform support discovered - Key idea: Native PHP accidentally works on TV platforms out of the box - Evidence: "Native PHP for mobile just works for... TV out of the box, it just works" #### ⏱️ [41:30](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=2490) — [H1] Mimi AI-powered development environment - Key idea: Zero-setup environment using Claude for mobile app development - Evidence: "Within a minute the environment is ready to start receiving prompts... using an LLM to make all of the changes for you" #### ⏱️ [46:45](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=2805) — [H2] Mimi demo showing calculator app creation - Key idea: Single prompt creates functional mobile apps with native features - Evidence: "Make me an iPhone calculator clone but make it Mother's Day themed... that was kind of it" #### ⏱️ [52:10](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=3130) — [H3] Plugin development kit for Claude - Key idea: AI-assisted plugin development in multiple languages - Evidence: "One prompt. Almost every single time it's a one shot to get it to work... 10 minutes to build a plugin" #### ⏱️ [58:25](https://youtu.be/CEYeTa_9qhY?t=3505) — [H2] Upcoming events and "The Vibes" - Key idea: Post-Laracon community event to maintain conference energy - Evidence: "Day three for Laracon... Let's keep the vibes going... 89 bucks... we're just hoping to cover the cost" ## 📚 References - [Native PHP Website](https://nativephp.com) - [Native PHP Plugins](https://nativephp.com/plugins) - [The Vibes Event](https://nativephp.com/the-vibes) - [Bifrost Deployment Service](https://bifrost.nativephp.com) - [Laracasts Native PHP Course](https://laracasts.com) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Native PHP transitioned from paid licensing to free open source with plugin-based revenue model to solve sustainability and adoption challenges - New plugin architecture prevents app bloat and App Store rejections while enabling community-driven development ecosystem - Jump and Mimi tools eliminate development environment friction through QR deployment and AI-powered cloud development environments ## 📰 Newsletter **Native PHP Goes Free: Mobile Development Revolution** Big news for PHP developers! Native PHP just announced they're going completely free and open source for mobile development. This game-changing move opens up native iOS and Android development to the entire PHP community. The new plugin architecture is particularly exciting - instead of bloated core installs, you now composer-require only what you need. Free plugins cover essentials like camera, files, and device info, while premium options support advanced features like biometrics and push notifications. Two standout tools launched alongside: Jump lets you scan QR codes to instantly test Laravel apps on your phone (no Xcode setup!), while Mimi provides AI-powered development environments that need zero local configuration. This represents a major opportunity for Laravel developers to expand into mobile without learning Swift or Kotlin. The plugin ecosystem is already growing with community contributions. Resources: [Native PHP](https://nativephp.com), [Plugin Marketplace](https://nativephp.com/plugins), [Jump App Downloads](https://nativephp.com/jump) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create mobile development workshops using Native PHP, target Laravel conferences - Education: Develop learning paths for web-to-mobile transitions, plugin development tutorials - Developer experience: Improve plugin documentation, create scaffolding commands - Developer marketing: Highlight zero-setup benefits, showcase community success stories - Community management: Foster plugin marketplace discussions, moderate technical support #### WordPress - Core: Investigate Native PHP integration possibilities for WordPress mobile apps - Community: Explore mobile meetup content, WordCamp mobile tracks - Training: Develop mobile development learning paths for WordPress developers - Marketing: Position WordPress as mobile-ready platform option - Plugins: Research WordPress-to-mobile plugin development opportunities ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Free and open source model will accelerate Native PHP adoption among Laravel developers significantly - Plugin marketplace will create sustainable revenue through premium features while maintaining free core - AI-powered development tools like Mimi will reduce mobile development barriers for web developers - QR-based deployment will become preferred method for mobile app testing and client demonstrations ### 📊 Methodology - Track Native PHP GitHub stars, plugin installations, and community Discord growth metrics - Survey Laravel developers about mobile development interest before/after free announcement - Measure plugin marketplace revenue distribution between free and premium offerings - A/B test traditional mobile development setup vs Jump app deployment times ### ❓ Questions - How will the plugin marketplace sustain two full-time maintainers long-term? - Can AI-powered tools like Mimi compete with established mobile development IDEs? - Will Apple's App Store restrictions limit Native PHP's mobile deployment options? ### 🔮 Future Research - Integration possibilities with WordPress mobile applications - Performance benchmarks comparing Native PHP apps to native Swift/Kotlin - Developer experience studies on web-to-mobile transition challenges ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Web developers can now build mobile apps without learning new languages - Policy: App Store submission processes need consideration for PHP-based mobile apps - Security: Plugin architecture requires careful vetting of third-party extensions - Education: Mobile development curricula should include PHP-based options - Funding: Plugin marketplaces offer new revenue models for open source mobile frameworks ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th Grade (Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Live demo of Mimi calculator app, Jump QR scanning workflow - Improve: Plugin architecture diagrams, mobile app lifecycle visualizations #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full podcast discussion with detailed explanations - Improve: Plugin development audio tutorials, deployment process narrations #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear analogies comparing to web development, technical definitions - Improve: Glossary of mobile development terms, step-by-step explanations #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Jump QR scanning demo, hands-on plugin installation - Improve: Interactive plugin builder, mobile testing checklists #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Plugin architecture reasoning, revenue model breakdown - Improve: Decision trees for plugin selection, performance metrics #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Discord community discussions, conference networking events - Improve: Plugin development peer review, collaborative project templates #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual plugin development workflow, self-paced courses - Improve: Solo developer project ideas, independent learning paths #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Ecosystem growth analogies, organic community development - Improve: Sustainability impact considerations, open source lifecycle thinking ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Podcast format naturally accessible, clear heading structure in notes - Improve: Transcript formatting with proper landmarks, descriptive link text #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard web navigation on documentation sites - Improve: Keyboard shortcuts for plugin installation, accessible mobile app testing #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard contrast in documentation - Improve: High contrast mode for development tools, scalable UI elements #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive documentation design - Improve: Mobile development tools with zoom support, scalable code editors #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript available for podcast episode - Improve: Video tutorials with captions, audio descriptions for demos #### Forms and interactions - Present: Basic form accessibility in documentation - Improve: Accessible plugin configuration interfaces, error handling #### Standards reference - Mobile development tools should meet WCAG 2.2 AA standards for accessibility ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Global developer community, international conference presence - Improve: Multi-language plugin descriptions, regional mobile development examples #### Inclusive language - Present: Gender-neutral technical terms, defined jargon - Improve: Plain-language plugin descriptions, avoid cultural idioms in documentation #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Structured plugin categories, consistent documentation format - Improve: Visual plugin installation guides, clear step-by-step processes #### Representation - Present: Diverse developer testimonials, varied use cases - Improve: Showcase developers from different backgrounds, inclusive imagery #### Psychological safety - Present: Supportive community Discord, respectful technical discussions - Improve: Clear contribution guidelines, harassment reporting mechanisms ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Plugin architecture logically prevents app bloat and permission issues - Inductive strength: Success with Laravel developers suggests broader PHP community adoption - Causal reasoning: Free model directly addresses adoption barriers for mobile development - Analogical strength: Comparing to successful open source plugin ecosystems #### Fallacies - False dilemma: Presentation implies only paid vs free models, ignoring hybrid approaches - Appeal to popularity: Assuming community enthusiasm guarantees long-term sustainability #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Enthusiastic but honest about challenges, transparent about business concerns ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No denial patterns identified in discussion - Attack: No attacks on critics or competitors - Reverse victim/offender: No victim/offender reversal tactics - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Genuine excitement and concern about sustainability, honest vulnerability about business challenges ## 🎯 Conclusion Native PHP's transition to free and open source represents a significant milestone for PHP mobile development. The plugin architecture elegantly solves --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] Heat. Heat. [00:24] Heat. Heat. N. [00:50] Hey, [01:02] hey, hey. Heat. Heat. N. [01:36] down. [music] [01:42] Yeah. [01:59] Heat. Heat. [02:06] Heat. [02:25] Heat. [02:30] Heat up [02:52] here. [03:04] Do you lie awake at night? Are you [03:07] afraid to turn out the lights? Is there [03:10] something you're scared of? [03:14] What's [music] there out in the dark? [03:17] Make sure to keep all your windows [03:19] locked. Do you do you surrender? [03:24] You try and try to stay awake. These [03:27] walls you [music] can't escape. [03:30] Here's one for the lonely hearts. For [03:33] the ones that fear [music] the dark. You [03:35] better run out. Run out. Out of here. [03:38] But you can't look the [music] other [03:39] way. Here's one for the broken road. [03:43] That's the only one [music] you know. [03:45] You better run out. Run out. Truth or [03:47] dare. Get me out. [music] Take me [03:50] anywhere but here. [03:53] Anywhere [03:55] [music] [03:55] but here. [04:13] Do you lie awake at night? Are you [04:16] afraid to turn out the lights? [music] [04:18] Is there something you're scared of? [04:24] >> [music] [04:26] >> Make sure to keep all your windows. [04:43] [music] [04:55] Hello and welcome to PHP Alive and [04:58] Kicking. This is a podcast that uh talks [05:01] about all the cool stuff happening in uh [05:04] PHP. I'm Mike Paige and my co-host over [05:07] there is Chris. [05:09] >> Hello. [05:10] We are brought to you by PHP Architect [05:13] and made better by our partners at PHP [05:15] Score. but more about them uh later. Um [05:18] before we get into today's show, we've [05:21] got a few things we want to talk about. [05:23] Um first of all, if you're listening to [05:25] us uh live on on YouTube right now, head [05:28] over to our Discord where you can join [05:30] in the chat. Um please, this is a live [05:34] recording, so do get in there. Um let's [05:36] have some questions for our guests. I'm [05:37] sure there's going to be a lot of [05:38] excitement about the subjects we're [05:40] going to be talking about today. Um [05:42] whilst you're on YouTube, hit the like [05:44] and subscribe button. that would be [05:46] great. We do have for you a um magazine [05:49] discount. We produce a monthly magazine [05:52] all about PHP. Uh if you use the uh code [05:56] Alive 3, you'll get the first three [05:58] months of uh the digital annual [06:01] subscription for free. [06:04] We also uh run a uh conference PHP Tech [06:10] which is coming up very soon. Not far [06:12] off now. the start of this year is going [06:14] really really quick. So yeah, that's in [06:16] that's in May. [06:19] Alongside PHP tech, we're also running [06:23] uh JStech for the first time ever where [06:26] there will be you can either go to uh [06:28] talks on PHP or talks on on uh on [06:32] JavaScript. Uh yes, we are mingling the [06:34] two. That might be a bit dangerous, but [06:37] we'll see what happens. Um we also have [06:41] our swag store. head over to the store [06:43] and you can uh pick up some cool [06:46] t-shirts and caps and all sorts over [06:48] there. Um there's some really cool merch [06:51] over there. Okay, that is I think ticked [06:54] all the boxes for everything we we need [06:56] to to say. Is that right? [06:59] >> We we could also let slip that if you [07:02] happen to go to jst.io then um early [07:05] bird ticket pricing is still available [07:07] until the end of the month. [07:09] >> Oh yes, early bird end of month. I [07:11] forgot about that one. [07:12] >> Only on jst.io. [snorts] [07:16] >> Okay. [07:19] Shh. Don't tell anyone. Don't tell Eric [07:21] and John. [07:22] >> No, don't don't tell them. They They [07:24] certainly didn't mention it on their [07:25] podcast. [07:27] [clears throat] [07:28] >> I haven't listened to it yet. [07:32] I'm going to get in trouble now. [07:36] I haven't listened to it yet. Right. [07:37] Okay. Uh before we bring on I guess I [07:40] want to show share a video. [07:42] Unfortunately, I haven't worked out how [07:44] to you um share the the audio as well as [07:48] a video, but we're going to switch over [07:50] to that. We'll share that and then our [07:52] guests hopefully will miraculously [07:54] appear on the screen while we're over [07:56] there. [08:59] >> [laughter] [09:02] >> We we could all hear the sound. [09:05] >> Uh I didn't I am the sound. [09:11] So yes, unsurprisingly from that intro [09:13] video, we have Shane and Simon with us [09:15] from Native PHP. [09:17] >> What's up? [09:18] >> How are you both? [09:23] [laughter] [09:23] >> Ladies first. Ladies first. [09:26] >> I'm not doing too good. I've been Yeah, [09:28] I've been doing a lot of traveling and [09:30] it's finally catching up with me. Made [09:32] it to London, but uh come down with the [09:35] Lergie. So [09:37] >> yeah, [clears throat] not feeling [09:38] >> So are you that jet jet lag that you're [09:40] actually 24 hours behind yourself? [09:42] >> I think it's jet lag. I think I've just [09:44] got a cold, [09:46] >> but yeah, I'm feeling pretty rough, [09:48] which is the worst way to start a [09:50] podcast. I'm sorry everybody, but I'm [09:52] not feeling great. [09:54] >> Yeah, make everybody feel better. Shane, [09:57] [laughter] [09:58] >> all right. Hey there, [09:59] >> Grandmaster. Oh, [10:01] >> that's me. [10:01] >> Well, you you two have been very very [10:04] busy. [10:05] >> Yeah. Yeah, we're we're getting there. [10:07] [laughter] [10:08] >> We're getting there. [10:08] >> So, quite quite a big announcement at [10:11] the beginning of the month. [10:13] >> Yeah. [10:15] >> Excited a lot of people. [snorts] [10:18] >> It has. [10:20] >> Yep. Uh I mean, just cats out the bag. [10:23] You want me to say it? Is that what it [10:24] sounds like you're leading me into this [10:26] and one of us should say [10:27] >> that's kind of our job. Which one are [10:30] you doing to say stuff? [laughter] So, [10:32] native PHP, for those that don't know, [10:34] which is really funny because uh we're [10:36] we I mean we announced this a couple [10:38] weeks ago, native PHP for mobile now is [10:41] free and open source. There's the big [10:43] highlight. There's more. There's a lot [10:45] more than that, but that's the big [10:46] highlight. Um we announced this, you [10:49] know, we had like Laravel news uh [10:51] articles go out. We had our own tweets [10:53] like scheduled to go out on time and all [10:55] this stuff. And then we put our own that [10:57] video and a tweet yesterday or the day [10:59] before and it got hundreds of likes and [11:00] so many people are like wait you can do [11:02] mobile from PHP like they didn't even [11:04] know anything about this. So it's like [11:06] it's still there's still a lot of uh [11:09] there's a lot of people that uh we have [11:11] yet to uh uh understand what's going on [11:14] here like trying to see what we're we're [11:16] all about here. So uh the more the more [11:18] avenues that we can shout from the [11:20] better I feel. uh it's just going to [11:22] make the whole core of everything that [11:23] much better and enable us to do things [11:25] like make it free in the first place, [11:27] you know. So, that was a struggle and a [11:29] a lot of work to get to that point and a [11:32] lot of back and forth, I think, [11:33] emotionally and a lot of work. There's [11:36] there's no shortage of uh of work in [11:39] this whole thing, but that was what's so [11:40] funny. What are you laughing at? [11:43] >> No, emotionally, you're right. [11:45] >> Oh, yeah. [laughter] [11:46] A roller coaster to get to this point. [11:48] It's like, you know, one of us would be [11:50] like, "Dude, we got to go free. We'll [11:51] open the floodgates. Everyone will come [11:53] in. It's like, yeah, we can't do it. [11:54] Find and then like uh two weeks later [11:56] it's ros are reversed." Like the other [11:58] one is like, "No, we got to make it go [12:00] for. You're right." You know, it's like, [12:01] "No, actually, I I misspoke." You know, [12:03] [laughter] [12:05] >> it's not it's not just that it's gone, [12:07] it's free. You've done a lot more work. [12:10] Um that's that's exciting. Excites me. [12:14] Um, we did we have this is the second [12:16] time you've been on the show with us and [12:18] we talked about this before and uh I am [12:20] I am pleased to tell you both that I [12:23] have now started uh not just a mobile [12:26] app but a desktop app as well. [12:28] >> Two different projects. When I say I [12:30] started them, Claude did it for me. [12:32] [laughter] [12:32] >> Yeah, that's even better. Actually, we [12:34] spent a lot of time training AI on it. [12:36] So, that's good. [12:37] >> So, yeah. Um, I I have got two projects [12:40] that I'm I'm sort of going back and [12:41] forth and and doing little bits on and [12:43] playing around with it and it's it's [12:45] awesome. It's so cool. But you've made [12:47] it even better. [12:48] >> Yeah. [12:50] >> For for what have we got? I've just got [12:52] the announcement up. So, a big [12:54] announcement about plugins. [12:57] >> Yeah. [12:58] >> Yeah. [12:59] >> That's probably one of my favorite [13:00] things to talk about. Yeah. [13:01] >> Yeah. Let's talk about the plugins, the [13:04] change and approach to the plugins. [13:08] Before you go into the deep technical [13:10] aspects of that, I think it's worth just [13:12] saying like uh when we were talking last [13:15] time, I actually can't remember when it [13:17] was, but I've got a feeling it was [13:19] around the time that we did V2 or we [13:21] were coming up to V2 releasing. [13:23] >> Yeah. [13:24] >> Um maybe it had just come out. I don't [13:26] know. Uh [13:28] >> you were just I think you were just [13:29] about to come out because you told us [13:31] about the QR scanning and barcode [13:34] scanner. [13:35] >> Yeah, that's right. The big reveal you [13:37] did was that QR was coming. [laughter] [13:41] >> So at that point we had a whole bunch of [13:44] new toys that we thrown into V2, [13:48] >> but they were all baked in in this like [13:50] really [13:52] what I'll say now feels like a really [13:54] cumbersome way of doing it. Um, but we'd [13:57] had dreams, you know, sort of a vision [13:59] of what this could be [14:02] uh to to make it really extensible [14:06] and um yeah, we we realized that for V3 [14:10] basically [14:12] uh not it was it sort of happened just [14:15] before V2 came out the the kind of [14:18] fundamentals for it. Um, but then over [14:21] the last few months we polished it up [14:23] and it it's enabling the the plug-in [14:26] mechanism which is really really cool [14:28] and and that you know just like on its [14:30] own is a huge huge thing for the next [14:36] version of this tool because of what it [14:38] enables and and Shane I'm sure is like [14:41] itching to go into all of the detail for [14:44] that. I'm fine. [14:46] [laughter] [14:48] >> I'll let him do that for a bit. [14:52] >> No. Uh, thanks. Uh, no, there's a lot to [14:56] talk about here. I think I the big smile [14:58] came over my face because it's like I [14:59] can't believe half of this [ __ ] works to [15:01] be honest. Sorry for the cussing. [15:03] [laughter] It just it's incredible. And [15:04] I think like if you go back to like at [15:08] the beginning of the project, we were [15:09] looking at other frameworks that are out [15:11] there do something similar and some of [15:12] the nightmares that they have is because [15:14] they broke things up into like modular [15:16] bits and it's like that creates the [15:18] dependency hell of things and we were [15:20] like we want don't want to do that [15:23] >> for very real reasons. We had to and I [15:26] think that's kind of what Simon's [15:27] getting to in that there's two big [15:30] reasons we had to do it. Number one is [15:31] as he mentioned it's bloating every time [15:34] we add all right people are asking us we [15:35] want camera we want microphone we want [15:37] Bluetooth we want printer whatever it is [15:39] right we're putting it in core and it's [15:41] getting bigger and bigger and bigger [15:42] whether or not you're using that [15:43] software it's there and and it's it's [15:46] bloating right and on the web we don't [15:48] really have to think or worry about that [15:49] and it's a different mindset even for us [15:51] coming into this it's a different [15:53] mindset of having to save space like we [15:56] just have some server if it gets too big [15:58] we'll just like you know extend the ELB [16:02] or whatever the the the not the load [16:04] balancer the um whatever it's called EBS [16:07] EBS which is it which AWS service is the [16:10] uh elastic [16:12] hard drive [16:12] >> you mean anyways [16:14] >> block storage [16:15] >> EBS right [16:16] >> elastic block storage [16:18] >> uh so um you know that's just a [16:21] different paradigm shift that we had to [16:22] think about and consider uh in addition [16:24] to that I think it was within a day or [16:26] two after launching v2 we had some of [16:29] our users is coming to us saying they're [16:31] they're getting their apps are rejected [16:33] from the app store because they don't [16:35] have what's called a permission string. [16:37] So, if you have a camera uh software [16:39] inside of your app and uh you like you [16:43] you've seen it before the first time you [16:44] use the app, it pops up and it's like [16:46] this app wants to use your camera [16:47] because it loves to take selfies. Like [16:48] it's a permission string, right? If you [16:50] don't declare that, it goes into a [16:52] certain place inside of your um [16:54] >> inside of your iPhone or Android app. um [16:58] if you don't put that there then you're [17:00] not going to get you're you're going to [17:02] get rejected but these people weren't [17:04] even using the camera was the thing and [17:06] so we were like why we didn't understand [17:08] it well they're detecting it in the [17:09] binary so Apple when you submit it [17:11] >> they're they have some algorithm that's [17:13] detecting that that software is there [17:15] and they're like you have software there [17:16] and you're so you could fudge that right [17:19] you can get by and just say oh we just [17:20] you know we're taking pictures because [17:22] we like taking pictures whatever the [17:23] reason like you can get by that but we [17:24] knew that wasn't a long-term solution so [17:27] we had to go this route of plugins, what [17:30] we're calling plugins, this modular uh [17:32] native APIs that are composer packages [17:35] essentially just composer require [17:36] install them and you're off to the [17:38] races. [17:40] >> So Joe says EBS can do 64 terabytes. I'm [17:44] now wondering what a 64 terbte phone [17:46] looks like. [snorts] [17:48] [laughter] [17:50] You remember the back in the day when [17:52] they had those whole rooms of computers, [17:55] you know? [laughter] [17:58] >> A 2 megabyte hard drive was the size of [18:01] a fridge. [laughter] [18:04] >> So true. [18:07] Um, so plugins. I love talking about [18:09] plugins. There's really cool things that [18:11] I'm seeing people in the community in [18:13] our Discord channel are building with [18:14] plugins. Uh it's really like um it it [18:18] gives me butterflies seeing some of this [18:20] stuff. I just get very like emotional [18:22] and excited and like look at this thing [18:24] taking a life of its own. There's so [18:26] many people contributing and we do have [18:28] a marketplace for the plugins. I think [18:30] when we when we launched this there was [18:32] uh something like 14 or 15 plugins that [18:34] we had and uh we made most of them are [18:37] free. some of the ones that people [18:38] really ask for or some that will [18:40] actually make you money um that you are [18:43] you know like um secure storage you need [18:45] security everybody needs security and [18:47] people are like you're charging for [18:48] security I'm like yeah look at Norton or [18:50] Macaffy I mean it's a good [laughter] [18:52] it's a good business model right um push [18:54] notifications because those are like [18:56] direction I mean directly actionable [18:58] towards revenue generating actions we [19:01] feel so there's some that we are [19:02] charging for uh people that have had uh [19:06] licenses with us they purchased licenses [19:08] with us or they were early access uh [19:10] program uh partners, they get discounts [19:13] and special things. So, we don't want to [19:14] feel like we don't want anyone to feel [19:16] jipped or ripped off or anything like [19:17] that. We want to take care of our users. [19:19] And then moving forward, what we're [19:21] providing uh once we get back from EU in [19:23] a few weeks, we're going to start [19:24] working on allowing third-party plugins [19:27] to be sold or for free on the same [19:29] marketplace. We have a nice distribution [19:31] channel there for that. And we've had I [19:34] don't even know, God, two or three dozen [19:36] plugins already submitted to us that are [19:38] just waiting for us to to figure out [19:40] legal and compliance and all that, you [19:42] know, jargon stuff that we got to figure [19:44] out for that. So, it's really exciting. [19:46] Um, it's going to just enable more and [19:48] more people to use this. And there's [19:50] literally no limitation now as to what [19:53] we can do from a Laravel application, [19:56] from a PHP application, [19:59] uh, on a physical device. I have yet to [20:01] see any real limitations other than a [20:04] couple very like core things that we [20:07] know we have to work on. Background [20:09] tasks, scheduling, [20:11] >> um little things like that that I mean [20:12] they're not little things, but they are [20:14] uh they're really core fundamental [20:16] things. What this does for us though is [20:18] now we don't have to we don't have to [20:19] put our heads together and like say all [20:21] right, which of these 55 different [20:23] plugins everybody's asking for do we [20:25] want to go and build? we can just let [20:26] the community go and do that. Frees up [20:28] some of our time to do things like this, [20:30] be on podcasts and shows all over the [20:32] place and talk around the world [20:34] >> as we've been doing and will continue [20:35] to. And my caffeine's obviously kicked [20:38] in. So, thank you guys for the space to [20:41] uh [laughter] [20:41] talk a little bit. Appreciate it. [20:45] >> No problem at all. So, you say you got [20:47] some some uh the core core I can't [20:50] speak. My caffeine has run out. [20:54] um some core plugins that are free and [20:56] then there's a then there's the premium [20:57] ones. Um I was just trying to see if I [21:00] could find the list of the free ones. [21:04] >> Yeah, that's a good uh if you just go to [21:06] nativephp.com/plugins. [21:08] >> Yeah, I'm in the um I'm in the um the [21:12] announcement you made on the first. So [21:14] you got biometrics, geoloccation, push [21:17] not notifications, scanner, and secure [21:20] storage [21:22] listed under [21:23] >> y [21:23] >> the free core ones. [21:25] >> No, those are the No, those are the [21:26] >> No, they I do apologize. They're the [21:28] marketplace ones. No, I have misread. [21:31] >> It's all right, man. The free ones are [21:34] mobile dialogue, mobile system, mobile [21:37] browser, mobile file, mobile share, [21:40] mobile network, mobile microphone, [21:43] mobile device, and mobile camera. [21:46] >> Sounds right. Yeah, [21:48] >> I got that from the homepage. [21:51] [sighs] [21:52] Once again, Chris beats me to the [21:54] Googling. [laughter] [21:58] >> And then then there's some really cool [22:00] page ones. [22:02] Sorry, [22:04] >> I said it's not a race, but you do win a [22:06] prize. So, well done, Chris. [laughter] [22:09] >> It's my prize, a subscription to the [22:11] paid ones. [22:14] >> Well, we'll talk about that later. [22:16] [laughter] [22:17] >> I've already bought them. [22:20] >> There you go. [22:23] >> And I think I actually look at that [22:25] statement that just happened. We can [22:26] talk about this. This is a safe place. [22:28] Uh, I mean it was it was kind of the [22:30] elephant in the room is like we are now [22:32] going free and open source. How are we [22:34] paying for our bills? Uh, and I think [22:36] that's something that um we're we're not [22:39] scared to talk about. This is something [22:40] that we're uh we're there's some [22:43] transparency. There's some things that [22:44] it's like you know it's a business. We [22:46] got to figure out the right line there. [22:48] But [22:49] >> um you know we we we have a byrost as a [22:52] product. So if you if once you have a [22:54] native PHP application you want to [22:56] distribute that. We built by frost as a [22:59] product as kind of like forge or cloud [23:01] is to Laravel. This is the way to get to [23:03] the app stores, right? Um, and so [23:05] [clears throat] you just connect your [23:06] GitHub repository for your project and [23:09] you put in some credentials that you [23:10] need for the stores and you hit ship it [23:12] and it will ship it. We're going to be [23:14] spending a lot more time on on making [23:16] that even more streamlined, less [23:17] friction uh, for the end user. Perhaps [23:20] some command line stuff that you can [23:22] deploy. Maybe we've got we are talking [23:24] about it. We'll see. Um and then plugins [23:28] and I I I think other than that we do [23:31] have um ambitions for a video course uh [23:35] probably within a month to two months [23:37] we'll be announcing releasing that um [23:40] kind of thing. And because we know that [23:42] education is like the biggest thing if [23:44] if there's so many people that want to [23:46] use this and they try to use it and then [23:48] they fail for one reason or another and [23:50] it's like oh if they just had me and [23:52] Simon there next to them just for 10 [23:54] minutes here and there they would be off [23:56] to the races and they're making mobile [23:57] apps for themselves or their clients or [23:59] the clients users their users. [24:01] >> Um so you know like the decision to go [24:04] free and open source was scary. It still [24:06] is scary to be honest because we are [24:08] both full-time on this project [24:11] >> and from month to month it's it's like [24:13] we're not sure if we're going to pay [24:15] bills sometime most of the time actually [24:17] like usually it's at the end of the [24:19] month we're like hey look what happened [24:20] you know [24:22] >> um and yeah it's it's it's been kind of [24:25] a roller coaster in that regard but we [24:27] are um we're hoping to see that uh even [24:30] out with some partner programs and some [24:32] sponsorships and stuff like that to kind [24:34] of uh smooth things over uh for the [24:37] >> interim. [24:38] Uh you mentioned something there that I [24:40] just wanted to latch on to before we go [24:42] to our sponsor because I'll forget when [24:44] we come back. Um there is now a video [24:47] course on Larcast. [24:49] >> There is. Yeah, Simon. [24:51] >> And it's completely free thanks to the [24:54] Larcast team. Um it's funny actually. I [24:57] I recorded a lot of that back in May, [25:02] June last year and it's only just come [25:05] out now. [25:06] >> Yeah. So it doesn't it's a little bit [25:09] unfortunate because there's been like [25:10] obviously a lot of advances that we've [25:12] made in in short order. Um, and [25:16] obviously a big part of it is, you know, [25:18] I say a big part, one bit in one of the [25:21] videos I mentioned that you have to pay [25:23] for to get access to the thing, you [25:25] know, and now it's free. So, uh, it's [25:28] sort of outdated as soon as it's come [25:31] out, but this that's kind of the nature [25:33] of doing that kind of content, which is [25:35] again why we want to make our own um, [25:39] and start spending some time focusing on [25:41] that. But yeah, go and watch the Lar [25:45] course. It's a good it's a good start. [25:47] It's completely free [25:50] >> and if you don't mind droning on for a [25:53] couple of hours, then [laughter] you'll [25:55] be all right. Uh but you can dip in and [25:58] out of videos. [25:58] >> I won't watch it then. [26:00] >> Figure out what's going on. [26:02] >> I'm hoping you don't need to watch it [26:04] because you should [laughter] know how [26:06] to use the product. Well, should. [26:09] >> All right, on that note, let's uh let's [26:11] hear from our sponsors. [26:16] >> Thank you to our partners at [26:17] phpscore.com. [26:19] Every app builds up technical debt over [26:21] time. It's the price we pay for shipping [26:23] new features and moving fast. When we [26:25] build up too much of it, though, it [26:27] [music] can start to impact how we work. [26:29] Team velocity suffers. Bugs become more [26:31] frequent and take longer to fix, and [26:34] everyone starts to get a little [26:35] frustrated. [26:36] The key to managing debt is to measure [26:38] it. A credit score can help you [26:41] understand how well you're managing your [26:42] financial debt. And now [music] there's [26:44] a credit score for your technical debt. [26:46] Go to phpsscore.com to get a free [26:49] technical [music] debt score and [26:50] monitoring for all of your PHP [26:52] applications today. [26:59] Thank you PHP score. Um I will just say [27:02] I said the wrong thing. They are [27:04] partners with us. They It's not a uh uh [27:07] not sponsorship. It's a partnership that [27:09] they are with us. I just thought I [27:11] better correct myself. I realize I'd [27:13] said the wrong word. Um okay, let's [27:15] let's keep diving into this this huge [27:18] announcement that you made uh at the [27:20] beginning of the month. So, the next [27:21] thing on there is jump. [27:24] Now, this is a pretty cool thing. I have [27:26] not tried it yet, but it looks pretty [27:28] awesome. [27:28] >> Jump is dope, man. Um so, it's really [27:31] cool. Uh, and I'll and I'll say so [27:34] there's jump and Mimi and I had almost [27:36] nothing to do with Mimi other than just [27:39] like, hey, make those buttons smaller or [27:42] make it so I can zoom in, you know, like [27:44] just telling Simon some stuff that I see [27:46] as a as a user. And I think he had kind [27:48] of the same the same like we talked like [27:50] fundamentally about how jump should work [27:52] and then I just went off on the races to [27:55] the races. I went I was racing. we were [27:57] racing. Um, and uh, so Jump is uh, let [28:03] me see if I can say this without saying [28:05] the words I don't want to say. Yeah, I [28:07] can do it. Jump is an app for your [28:11] phone. So, you can go to the Play Store. [28:12] You can go to the um that it's through [28:15] Test Flight right now because Apple's a [28:16] douche and that they're not wanting to [28:19] change apparently. [snorts] But, we'll [28:21] we'll figure it out. We'll I'll go back [28:23] to California and twist some arms or [28:25] something. um we'll figure that out. But [28:27] it's in TestFlight at the moment and [28:28] that's good for up to 10,000 users. I [28:30] think we've just hit about a thousand on [28:33] um on Testflight users. But what it is, [28:35] it's an app that you install on your [28:37] device. You can start a brand new [28:40] Laravel uh uh uh site project composer [28:44] require native PHP mobile and then run [28:48] uh PHP Artisan native Jump. It's going [28:51] to ask if you are using an an Android or [28:53] an iPhone and you just select whatever [28:56] phone you have that's installed the Jump [28:57] app and it's going to show a QR code in [28:59] the browser. You scan that with a Jump [29:01] app and voila, your application is on [29:04] the device and you have real native [29:07] functionality right there in your hand [29:09] uh without having to configure your [29:11] environment at all. Now, I will put an [29:14] asterisk. There's no hot module [29:16] reloading which is one thing I really [29:17] really want. Uh it's something we'll [29:19] figure out how to do. Um, it it's just a [29:21] matter of time. We actually had a [29:23] working uh model. It was working fine [29:25] with LiveWire, but with like Inertia [29:27] stuff, it wasn't. We didn't want to have [29:28] it halfbaked, but we wanted to release [29:30] it in time for the for everything else. [29:32] So, we'll get that going in the next [29:34] couple months as well. And then it's [29:36] just you'll just make changes coding and [29:38] you'll see them update on your device in [29:40] real time. And it's badass. I didn't [29:43] think it would go over as well as it has [29:45] with the community. Everybody is like [29:47] falling in love with this thing. Really [29:48] wowed by it. So pretty proud of that. [29:50] >> It sounds absolutely crazy. [29:52] >> Well, there's more to it too actually. [29:55] Um, so Bifrost, remember I said about [29:57] Bifrost, kind of like forger cloud. If [30:00] you signed in to the Jump app with your [30:02] Bifrost credentials, you just go to the [30:03] settings and sign in, [30:05] >> it will pull down all of your projects [30:07] and you can see all the projects that [30:08] are there and you click on one [30:10] >> and it will pull up all of the different [30:11] branches that you have for that project. [30:13] So say you and I are working on the same [30:15] on the same team, right? And you've made [30:16] some changes and you're on a different [30:18] branch. I can just go and pull that [30:19] down. It's going to do a build behind [30:21] the scenes on AWS code build. It's gonna [30:23] pull it down and it will unpackage right [30:25] on my phone. I can see all your changes [30:27] and you're off to the races. It's uh [30:30] it's kind of badass. Yeah. [30:32] >> Yeah. [30:34] That's the uh Yeah, I don't have any [30:36] words. I'm just kind of I saw that and [30:39] then you explaining it's just like blow [30:41] my mind. Yeah. [30:43] >> Yeah. So, we've had a comment from a [30:45] subscriber from Bifrost. Byrost [30:47] subscriber here. I'll be using it for [30:49] the mobile offering of my new Laravel [30:51] SAS that I'm launching soon. Appreciate [30:53] you guys and the innovations you're [30:54] bringing to Laravel and PHP community. [30:57] >> We absolutely love you. I just went to [31:00] Costco today to get some milk and some [31:02] water. You helped me with that. No joke. [31:06] There's no there's no sugar coating [31:07] that. You You the people are helping us [31:10] actually stay alive so we can keep [31:12] working on this stuff. So it's a [31:13] symbiotic mutual appreciation. [31:16] >> So So what you're telling us is if we [31:18] don't subscribe to Bifrost, you can't [31:19] drink coffee. [31:20] >> We I will die. I will die. Yeah, it's [31:23] exactly what I'm saying. [31:25] >> It's It's worse than that. that native [31:27] [laughter] PHP won't exist because right [31:31] like [31:32] >> yeah it does I think these projects this [31:34] is something I was thinking about when [31:36] we were talking about uh [31:39] you know how we've transitioned to free [31:41] the the challenge that we have to to [31:44] kind of think through like what the [31:46] implications of that are for for [31:49] maintainers that's what we see ourselves [31:51] as right we're the maintainers of this [31:54] um and I've always wanted it to be a [31:57] sustainable thing because I know that [32:00] projects like this only survive if [32:04] you've got somebody behind it like and [32:07] by somebody I mean not just developers [32:10] who are prepared to give spare time but [32:13] actually like proactively driving it [32:17] forward and and to do that you just have [32:20] to be fulltime on it. It's like it's a [32:23] complex project and [32:25] >> lots of different moving parts and [32:28] >> needs like coordination and focus and [32:31] you can't give it that when you're you [32:34] know if you're the only person on it and [32:36] you're only doing it on a Saturday [32:37] evening. Um, [32:40] and you know, it it's a big enough [32:42] project that it requires a lot more than [32:45] two people, frankly, but it's only got [32:47] two people. [32:50] >> And we we've tried to get it to a point [32:52] where it's just sustainable. And I think [32:54] we're we're not really even at that [32:57] point yet. Um, but we we feel confident [33:01] that like making it free is the the [33:03] right move to get there and eternally [33:07] grateful to everybody who's supported in [33:10] getting to this point so far through all [33:12] the different ways that they've done [33:14] that [33:14] >> because um it does mean that Shane will [33:18] survive [laughter] and the project will [33:22] go on, you know, and and that's what it [33:24] needs to do so that more and more people [33:27] keep on using Yeah. And benefiting from [33:28] it. Um. [33:30] >> Yeah. [33:30] >> Yeah. So, carry on. [33:32] >> I I will say it's probably probably one [33:34] of the biggest things [33:36] um in the PHP [33:40] uh community that's come out recently. I [33:42] think I mean the the language itself is [33:44] always improving. There's cool stuff [33:45] coming into the language. Um and all the [33:48] different um frameworks are sort of [33:50] following on. There's cool stuff coming [33:52] into the frameworks. But to be able to [33:53] now actually [33:55] use PHP for almost any device you can [33:58] think possible. Maybe not quite yet a [34:00] fridge, Chris, but [34:03] >> we'll get there. We'll get there. [34:04] [laughter] [34:05] >> Send me a fridge and I'll figure it out. [34:07] I promise. [34:09] >> The stupid thing is that a lot of the [34:11] smart fridges are effectively just a [34:14] very big Android phone that you can put [34:16] stuff in. [laughter] [34:20] So, it's uh subsequently, so we had some [34:23] people point this out. I discovered this [34:25] on my own, but I didn't want to say [34:26] anything because I only spent 10 or 20 [34:28] minutes playing with this thing. [34:29] Somebody pointed out to us the other day [34:31] that uh native PHP for mobile just works [34:35] for was it uh was it TV? [34:38] >> TV. [34:39] >> I think it was TV. So, just for TV out [34:41] of the box, it just works. I played with [34:43] it in an emulator. Um they had it [34:45] actually working, I think. Uh but it [34:47] just kind of works. So you can build TV [34:49] apps apparently. And um we do want to we [34:52] do want to expand. Uh I think something [34:54] Simon said and we I very careful and [34:56] cautious saying this. We want to hire [34:59] people, right? Every time I've said that [35:02] I ended up with like a hundred different [35:04] resumes in my inbox. [laughter] [35:05] We want the money to hire people is what [35:08] I should say. We we need the revenue to [35:10] hire people. That's what I I should be [35:12] very specific about that. So, [35:14] >> so if somebody comes to you with a [35:16] proposal of what they want to do and the [35:18] money to do it, [35:19] >> yes, we'll figure it out. Yeah. [35:23] >> Yeah. [35:24] >> I mean, even even if you came to me with [35:26] like, I want a job and here's enough [35:28] money to pay my salary. We got you, [35:30] dude. We got you. That'd be great. [35:32] >> So So [laughter] you're basically asking [35:34] people to fund themselves for Yukatai. [35:38] >> Absolutely. Absolutely. [35:39] >> Right. Okay. We as long as we're [35:41] completely sure that [laughter] [35:43] >> I I think Joe has a really good point [35:46] here. [snorts] [35:48] >> You could hire us. [35:49] >> Yeah, for sure. If you guys give us the [35:51] money to pay for you, we will absolutely [35:55] consider. We'll put it in the stack. [35:57] We'll get to you in a couple probably a [35:59] year for us to get to the resumes, but [36:02] uh [36:02] >> so we'll consider it. [36:03] >> I have a plan. What I'm going to do is [36:05] I'm going to talk to Taylor, get him to [36:07] sponsor us. I'm then going to come and [36:10] talk to you and say, "Right, Taylor's [36:11] sponsoring us, so we're now going to [36:13] write stuff for you." And then [36:14] everybody's happy. [36:17] >> Sounds It sounds like It sounds like a [36:20] plan. [36:22] >> Yeah. [laughter] [36:26] >> Right. We derailed a bit. Let's Let's [36:29] bring it back on track. So, we we've [36:32] talked about jump, which is like [36:36] from after the the um the plugins and [36:40] and being able to just pull in the bits [36:42] that you need. That is pretty cool. Then [36:45] you then you've gone and announced about [36:47] Mimi. [36:49] >> So, tell us a bit more about Mimi. [36:53] >> Uh [snorts] well, the first thing to say [36:54] is just the last couple of days we've [36:56] had so many people come on and start [36:58] using it. It's actually creaking under [37:01] the pressure and I haven't got the the [37:04] time to [laughter] [37:05] >> to sort it out. But at the moment it's [37:08] it's kind of under maintenance. Uh but [37:11] when it works again, which it will do [37:13] very soon, Mimi is um it's it's [37:16] basically our take on um aentic coding [37:20] environment for building mobile apps [37:24] using native PHP. Um, and it it was [37:30] it was like a sudden brainchild. I mean, [37:32] we talked about it again. It's one of [37:34] these things that we had conversations [37:36] of uh of like stuff that we might like [37:38] to do at some point in the future. Um, [37:41] but I was actually having um a couple of [37:44] I was having calls with my dad. My my [37:47] dad has suddenly got into coding. He's [37:49] like 70 and he but not really coding, [37:53] you know, he's just discovered the AI [37:55] tools and uh and started like I can [37:58] build apps now, which is great. I love [38:00] it. Uh because the the the last thing [38:04] that he did before that was like the [38:06] closest thing to that was H writing a [38:08] little bit of HTML. and now he's like [38:11] producing full-blown apps, you know, and [38:14] of course they use things like React and [38:17] other horrible tools not [laughter] [38:20] related to PHP, but um I I managed to [38:25] sort of steer him towards [38:27] uh a few of the tools that I'm more [38:29] familiar with and and he's been building [38:31] stuff in those as well and he's been [38:32] building some mobile apps and, you know, [38:34] he's doing all these different things [38:35] which is really really cool. I'm like [38:38] watching him go through the process of [38:40] setting some of this stuff up and I'm [38:42] I'm thinking about like what I find [38:45] really really useful and why those tools [38:47] are really easy to use um and enjoyable [38:52] and and I'm just like it's just too [38:55] difficult for normies to to build with [38:59] this stuff at the moment. Like there's a [39:01] lot of hurdles that you've got to step [39:03] over. But then I'm like, well, our goal [39:07] is not really ever to build tools to [39:10] bring any any person into this. Um, but [39:15] it's still uh there's still like a [39:17] hurdle even if you're a developer, [39:18] right? You've still got to install tools [39:22] on your system that are like multiple [39:24] gigabytes to download. They take [39:27] configuration that can take hours or [39:29] days to get right. And then you know if [39:33] your machine is performant enough to run [39:35] all of these things so that you can [39:37] actually start building and start [39:39] testing then [39:42] good job but it's still going to take a [39:44] lot of time. And what we what we [39:47] realized was that if you if you just [39:49] kind of have an environment ready to go [39:53] and you throw all of the tools together [39:54] in one place, [39:57] you can get to building apps way way [39:59] faster. uh like it because of the way [40:03] that we provision the environments you [40:05] don't even have to wait for like [40:07] composer install of Laravel you don't [40:09] have to wait for composer install of [40:11] native PHP and within it's usually [40:15] within a minute the environment is ready [40:17] to start receiving prompts and then we [40:20] focus less on like writing code and more [40:23] on just using an LLM to make all of the [40:27] changes for you and so then you is [40:29] literally prompting this isolated [40:33] environment to go and build your [40:35] application for you and it's showing you [40:38] a preview as it's making changes. I [40:40] would love to demo it, but [laughter] I [40:42] can't because it's been broken. But um [40:48] >> yeah, it's it's so it's cool because you [40:52] know like if you're getting if you're [40:54] just like dipping your toe in this space [40:57] of like using clawed code um opus you [41:01] know like to to start building apps um [41:05] now you can do it without any of the [41:06] setup. [41:08] You can just toy around for a bit and if [41:10] you get a if you get a Bifrost [41:12] subscription, [41:14] you can then export all of the code that [41:16] it's created for you to your GitHub [41:20] account. So then you can go and do [41:22] whatever you want to do with it. Like [41:24] you don't have to you don't have to use [41:26] that tool at all if you don't don't want [41:29] to continue with that. So it's it's even [41:32] just like a great way to start a project [41:34] and get you off the ground and and [41:36] running. [41:38] But then it's plugged into all of the [41:39] other things like you can build through [41:42] Bifrost from there. So you can actually [41:43] take it to the store from Mimi. You can [41:46] uh build it for Jump and so then you [41:49] just scan the QR code from Mimi and it's [41:51] running on your phone and you haven't [41:53] had to install a thing on your laptop. [41:55] So I think that's really cool. We're [41:58] going to get it working properly again [42:00] soon. And then [clears throat] [42:02] you know even better. [42:03] >> I was going to say the the dashboard is [42:05] working. I can't like type into the [42:06] input at the moment. I could show that [42:08] if you guys want to see that and just [42:10] see a little bit. Yeah. You want to see [42:12] it? All right. [42:12] >> Yeah. Yeah. Let's see it. [42:15] >> Here we go. [42:16] >> Is it demoing your app? [42:19] >> Uh this is uh this is the app that I [42:21] always kind of play with, but it's like [42:22] right now I can't even type in to this. [42:24] I don't know if I could use my voice. Uh [42:27] but either way, um this came in with [42:30] just a prompt. So here's the initial [42:32] prompt. I said, "Make me an iPhone [42:34] calculator clone." but make it Mother's [42:35] Day themed. And now it doesn't look [42:37] Mother's Day themed obviously because I [42:39] told it to um make it St. Patty's Day [42:42] themed instead someplace else. So just [42:44] change the theme. And yeah, that was [42:47] that was kind of it. You have all sorts [42:49] of tooling here on the side. So we can [42:51] actually look at the files. So here's [42:52] all the Laravel files. You can see [42:54] everything. Man, Simon, you did a bangup [42:57] job on this. I'm really happy to see all [42:59] this stuff. It's really cool. [43:01] >> Uh so you can browse everything here. It [43:02] connects directly to GitHub. So I can [43:05] see it on GitHub. I can disconnect it. I [43:07] can make a new branch and work on a [43:09] different branch if I want to. I can [43:10] make a pull request from that branch [43:12] into my branch. [43:13] >> Um I don't know what view project. Oh, [43:15] that's looking at it on by frost. So [43:17] once it's attached to the Bifrost, then [43:20] >> you can do that. Um and then here it is. [43:23] You can preview it on device. So this [43:24] will actually create that um the QR code [43:28] for jump. [43:31] And I mean, I don't know how well you'll [43:32] see this on the screen, but I'll go [43:34] ahead and scan this. In fact, if you [43:37] have the Jump app installed at home, uh, [43:40] technically, you could scan that right [43:42] now. [43:43] >> It would work. [43:44] >> Uh, so let me go back to here and show [43:48] my [43:53] All right, you see my video again. [43:56] >> So, here's here it is. It's just scanned [43:59] and it's downloaded and it's giving me [44:00] this little prompt of like, hey, when [44:02] you're when you go into the app, if you [44:04] want to exit, use three fingers to [44:06] escape. And so I say, "Got it." And [44:08] there's my little [44:10] >> St. Patty's Day calculator. It's kind of [44:12] bright there. Sorry. I apologize for [44:14] that. [44:14] >> That's okay. [44:15] >> Um, [44:16] >> we we get the gist. [44:18] >> What's What's 0.1 plus 0.2? [44:22] >> I don't know what not means, but I'm [44:23] going to do nine times not whatever [44:25] Java. [44:25] >> I'm American. [laughter] [44:28] So now do 0.1 plus 0.2. I just want to [44:32] see if it's caught the obvious error. [44:35] >> Negative 0.1. [44:38] What is it? [44:39] >> Plus 0.2 [44:41] >> plus positive 0.2. [44:42] >> Yeah. [44:45] >> Uh we're going to hit equals in a [44:47] second. [44:50] >> Yeah. It hasn't manage floating point [44:52] errors yet, but I'm sure you could tell [44:54] it to. [44:55] >> I probably could tell it to. So, uh, so [44:57] I'll just use this is if you want to [44:59] see, um, uh, jump while we're here. So, [45:02] I just use those three fingers to swipe [45:04] away. So, these are all the Mimi apps [45:06] that I've got installed. Here's like [45:08] local development stuff. What's really [45:09] nice is even after you walk away, you [45:11] disconnect from your local network. [45:13] Those files remain inside of the app. [45:15] So, I can, if I want to demo this to a [45:17] client or something, I can just flash it [45:18] to my phone and I can take it to them [45:21] and I can show them. Uh, and then by [45:23] frost. Um, if I'm on by frost, I'll just [45:27] scroll down to this one on the bottom [45:28] here. I'm gonna say run. [45:32] And then I can see all the different [45:33] branches that I've got up there. I can [45:36] just click one of them and say download [45:38] and run. And it's going to create this [45:40] build in the back end with AWS code [45:42] builds. Uh, since it's already done [45:44] that, it knows that it's already got one [45:45] there for this commit. Uh, so that [45:47] commit hash, it's already got a a zip [45:50] uh, you know, related to it. so it [45:51] doesn't have to rebuild it every single [45:53] time. Uh, and there we go. So, we've got [45:55] the actual uh thing here and this is [45:58] like fully functional. So, there's the [46:00] camera and I can take pictures and it's [46:02] all native stuff and good to go. [46:06] >> Badass. [46:07] >> That's incredible. Yeah, you should be. [46:11] You really should be. Um, so I have a [46:13] question uh for in regards to the Mimi. [46:18] Um yeah, so I [46:20] >> I'll give you a bit of I've I've been [46:22] building a web application uh for some [46:25] time now. I'm looking to create a mobile [46:28] version of that. Um my what I've started [46:32] to do was to [46:35] excuse [clears throat] me is on my on my [46:38] local machine I've got a a fold [46:40] directory with that project in and then [46:43] a new so two Laravel projects. one is [46:45] the web, one is the mobile and I'm [46:47] running claude within that directory. [46:49] So, it's got access to both those uh re [46:53] repos and I'm kind of saying right okay [46:56] now let's let's have a look at this and [46:57] let's transfer what we've done here for [46:59] this feature and make it work in the [47:01] mobile app. Can Mimi access your access [47:05] other um [47:08] repos on GitHub and do a similar thing? [47:11] So if I say can you go and look at my [47:12] repo here this is a web application I [47:15] want to start building the mobile [47:17] version of this [47:20] >> could it do that [47:21] >> principally it would be able to do that [47:24] it can't do that right now because it's [47:26] built around uh just interfacing with a [47:29] single repository a single project [47:32] >> um [47:33] >> but you know yeah if there was enough [47:36] demand for that kind of a feature and it [47:40] made sense to, you know, build all of [47:42] that, which I I can't imagine it would [47:45] be that much. I you basically just [47:47] giving the LLM [47:50] wider [47:52] circle of things to go and reach into. [47:54] So, you know, it it wouldn't be like a [47:58] ton of of stuff to do, but um in theory, [48:02] >> it sounds like [48:03] >> any of that stuff. [48:06] >> It sounds like it'd be pretty much the [48:08] same as AD directory in Claude Code. [48:12] It's similar. You'd have to clone that [48:14] repository first, obviously, and then [48:16] you could reference it. Sure. [48:18] >> Kind of. Yeah, [48:20] >> you could. [48:20] >> Um, yeah, I there's a few ways that you [48:23] could cut it. And I think that it would [48:26] be [48:27] interesting to see uh [48:31] how people like to approach it. you [48:33] know, I'd love [48:34] >> to talk to somebody who was like [48:36] >> determined to make that workflow work [48:39] for them if it was that sort of [48:41] powerful. Um, [48:42] >> I do see like a really good edge case [48:45] for if you already have a native PHP [48:47] mobile app in GitHub and perhaps even on [48:50] Bifrost to bring that into Mimi. [48:52] >> Um, so it's a different use case than to [48:55] reference a non-native PHP app. But if [48:58] I've already got one, here's a GitHub [48:59] repository. Just build it off of that [49:01] and then I can start vibe coding on that [49:02] same thing. The thing is if you're using [49:04] an anthropic key, which you need for [49:06] Mimi, you can just do that locally [49:08] anyway. So I don't know how much value [49:10] it's actually adding for the developer. [49:13] >> Okay, fair enough. [49:17] >> Cool. Um, okay. So is there I think [49:21] that's was that everything that you [49:22] announced at the beginning of the month? [49:24] >> Was that everything? plugins mimi free [49:28] open source [49:30] >> not not quite because we've had a couple [49:32] of things come out since then. Um so rel [49:36] back to plugins we um something that [49:40] Shane's been working on very you know [49:43] heavily as part of building out the [49:44] plug-in functionality is actually a [49:47] claude clo claude code plugin [49:51] uh which we're calling our plug-in dev [49:54] kit. So, what actually going back to [49:58] plugins in general, you know, we talk [49:59] about the the premium plugins and we [50:01] we've had people say, "Oh, you know, uh [50:04] it's a bit it's weird now that this is [50:06] free and that you've got these paid [50:08] plugins and it's, you know, we say, [50:10] well, that does help support the [50:11] project." But the other side to that is, [50:14] well, if if you want to, you can just go [50:17] and build all of that functionality [50:18] yourself. like it's that open that if [50:21] you really didn't want to pay like $29 [50:24] or $49 for a plugin, then you can skip [50:28] all of that. You can just go and build [50:30] it. Um, but where the plug-in devkit [50:34] comes in, so if you if you don't know [50:37] Swift and you don't know Cotlin or you [50:39] don't want to write in multiple [50:41] languages and you still want to build [50:43] for multiple platforms, [50:45] this will help you get going if you're [50:47] using clawed code. So [50:50] >> it it literally just plugs right into [50:54] the Claude code. You know, Claude's got [50:56] all of this stuff built into it to like [51:00] install their plugins. [51:02] And then once that's in place, and you [51:04] kind of give the prompt that says, I [51:07] want to build a plugin for native PHP. [51:09] It's going to start asking you all the [51:11] questions and prompting you around the [51:13] stuff that you need to think about uh [51:16] and how you want the thing to work and [51:17] which uh dependencies from Swift package [51:20] manager or cocoa pods or gradal you want [51:24] to use and all of that kind of thing and [51:26] then it brings it all together. Um, and [51:29] it will do I think I I haven't done that [51:32] many plugins with it yet because I've [51:35] been focusing on other things, but I [51:37] Shane's done a ton. [51:39] >> I do them like every day. I do them like [51:41] every day and I just throw them away [51:42] because really I'm just like building [51:44] what I want to build and then [51:45] >> whatever. Uh, they take time, right? [51:48] It's like 10 minutes to build a plugin. [51:51] >> For the most part, it's it's it's like [51:52] one prompt. Almost almost every single [51:54] time it's a one shot uh to to get it to [51:57] work. um maybe a couple. Sometimes [52:00] there's like a build failure, so you [52:01] just copy and paste the build failure [52:02] back into [52:04] >> the uh the model and it just fixes it [52:06] and you're good to go. And it's it's [52:08] it's pretty badass. Yeah. [52:11] >> Um one thing just to on plugins, if I [52:15] correct me if I'm wrong, is it a onetime [52:19] payment and you can use it for as many [52:21] apps as you want? [52:22] >> Forever. Yep. There's no subscription. [52:24] There's no limits. Yep. [52:26] >> Yep. Yep. Cool. [52:29] Um, okay. Well, I think we've pretty [52:32] much covered everything that was in that [52:33] that announcement and you all you guys [52:36] are coming out with more. So, there's [52:37] always announcements. I can't keep up [52:39] with you. There's always something new [52:41] new uh coming in. So, is there any [52:43] anything else that's uh that you want to [52:45] mention that's you've released since [52:48] since the beginning of the month? [52:51] It's a couple uh patches that we've [52:53] released, but no, we're we're right now [52:55] we're focusing on Simon uh Simon's got a [52:58] talk at PHP UK in a couple days and then [53:00] a week later at Larconu. Uh I've also [53:04] been blessed with a speaking uh slot at [53:06] Laracanu as well. So, we're preparing [53:09] for that. Um and also kind of like [53:11] preparing mentally for when we return [53:14] from that trip. Um [53:16] >> because it's it's kind of game on. We've [53:18] got about two and a half months or so [53:20] until PHP Tech in Chicago and Laravel [53:23] Live Japan, which are backtoback for me. [53:25] I'm flying right from Chicago to Tokyo [53:28] and then um coming back from that [53:32] uh we've got about a month and a half [53:34] until Laracon US and we're doing [53:37] something special. So, I guess this is [53:38] an announcement uh that we made the [53:40] other day. [snorts] Um, if you've ever [53:44] been to Laracon US, you know how [53:47] exciting or any Laracon, I would say. [53:49] It's probably true for almost every [53:50] Laracon. You know, after two days of of [53:53] talks and being around like-minded [53:55] people, it is just you are just flowing [53:58] with ideas and vibing and we've been [54:02] thinking about this for a long time like [54:03] how to how to capitalize on that. I [54:05] don't mean in a financial gain sort of [54:07] capitalization, but like how can we [54:09] expand upon that? And I think if Shane [54:13] and Simon, who were nobody two years [54:15] ago, did what we're doing now, it would [54:17] have flopped. And we still run the risk [54:19] of that to be honest, but uh we're doing [54:22] what we're calling a day three for [54:24] Laracon. So, a mile away from Laracon in [54:26] Boston, uh, in US, uh, on the third day [54:30] from, I think it's 9:00 a.m. till 400 [54:32] p.m., we're hosting a we're calling it [54:35] the vibes. Let's keep the vibes going. [54:36] So, it's not we're not like doing any [54:39] big talks or big announcements uh or [54:42] releases or anything like that from [54:43] native PHP. We're just hosting this [54:45] environment. Uh, we put the deposit down [54:47] on the venue, which was pretty [54:49] nerve-wracking, and uh we're getting [54:51] catering. And so let the coffee and Coke [54:54] Zeros flow all day long. Buy a ticket. [54:56] We're selling tickets for 89 bucks. [54:58] That's going to go up to I think 129 [55:00] after [55:01] >> March. [55:02] >> Um and that's really we're just trying [55:04] to not go broke [laughter] on the event. [55:07] Uh it's it's not cheap, but um we're not [55:10] looking to to gain anything is what I'm [55:12] trying to get at. We're we're just [55:13] hoping to cover the cost of it with [55:15] that. And um yeah, I think we're [55:17] limiting it to 100 or 120 people, [55:19] something like that. Um, and we think [55:22] that's doable given that there's going [55:24] to be about 12 to 1300 people at Laracon [55:26] this year. So, um, we're pretty excited [55:29] about that. We really want people to [55:31] start buying tickets for that. Please, [55:33] um, we've sold a few. That's great. But, [55:36] um, we need to sell quite a few more. [55:39] Please buy tickets. If you think you're [55:42] going to go, just buy a ticket. And [55:43] then, uh, if you don't go, that's okay. [55:45] You helped a good cause. [55:48] >> [laughter] [55:50] >> just put the link on the screen. It's [55:52] nativephp.comthe-vibes. [55:56] >> Thank you so much. Yep. It's going to be [55:58] awesome. The venue is beautiful. It's [56:00] beautiful. Gorgeous. If you scroll down [56:01] to the bottom of that, there's some uh [56:04] real pictures of a real place, not AI, [56:07] not Nana Banana or whatever. [laughter] [56:10] >> Yeah, I think I guess. Well, you you've [56:14] kind of answered my uh my next question [56:16] because I've seen you've been doing [56:17] quite a few talks recently and what I [56:19] was going to ask what you've got coming [56:20] up. So, we know Simon, you're going to [56:22] be in Are you Did you say you're already [56:24] in London at the moment? [56:25] >> I am. Yeah. [56:27] >> Yeah. You're already there. So, we'll be [56:29] joining you on Friday. We'll be coming [56:31] down to uh PHP UK. Anyone else that's [56:34] coming down, do come and say hello to us [56:36] or we'll me and Chris will have loads of [56:38] stickers and things to give out as well. [56:40] if you like stickers. Um, [56:42] >> come and say hi. Come and say hi to [56:44] Simon. And uh, [56:46] >> yeah, that'll be that'll be uh, cool. [56:50] Um, it's we think, did you say it's a [56:52] three three track this year? [56:54] >> Three track. One day three track. [56:56] >> Lots of really good talks. Friend of [56:59] ours, Sarah, um, the one the internals [57:02] will be there. I can't remember. She's [57:04] gonna kill me, but I can't remember what [57:06] her talk is. [57:08] >> Chris can't remember. So, he's looking [57:10] it up to make it look like he's [57:12] remembered, [laughter] [57:14] >> but I let I'll let him look it look it [57:16] up. I've not I'll be honest, I've not [57:17] looked at the full list of speakers yet. [57:20] So, I'll need to do that soon to decide [57:21] where I'm going. [57:23] >> There's a lot of good people on there. [57:25] Yeah, it looks like it's going to be a [57:27] really good event. The thing like I find [57:29] with the with the multi-track events [57:32] though is I I never get to see all of [57:36] the talks that I would like to see. [57:38] >> Mhm. And yeah, I'm I I'm also much more [57:43] of a fan of the social aspects rather [57:46] than the talks, which is why, you know, [57:49] with our day three thing, the the vibes [57:52] is [57:53] >> a social thing and not a talks thing [57:55] because it's that extended opportunity [57:58] to chat rather than, you know, I think [58:02] you can learn a lot from just sitting at [58:04] a table with a bunch of smart people. [58:07] And I'm not not well I I obviously need [58:10] to plug this as well, but uh I [58:12] completely agree with what you're saying [58:14] and I think that's why I love uh tech so [58:17] much that it's a three-day. There is [58:19] three tracks, well four tracks if you [58:21] now count the the JS tech as well. [58:25] >> Um yeah, [58:26] >> but if you've got a ticket, you get [58:28] access to all of those videos. We record [58:30] everything everything streamed for [58:33] anyone who has a virtual ticket. So, if [58:34] you've got a ticket or um you're [58:36] involved in some way, you'll have access [58:37] to all those talks because we know you [58:39] can't get to all the talks. Um but on [58:42] all three evenings, there's a lot of [58:45] socializing going on. There's a lot of [58:47] people just chatting about all sorts of [58:49] things. Um and playing games, uh [58:52] karaoke. [58:54] Um [58:55] >> yes, [58:55] >> and then the [58:58] going out. It [58:58] >> was awesome last year actually. [59:01] >> Sorry. [59:01] >> It was awesome. I was there last year. [59:03] It was my first time there. It was It [59:04] was awesome. [59:05] >> Yeah. Yeah. It's a It's a Everyone just [59:08] come because we're all contained in the [59:10] one most most of us all in the same [59:12] hotel. You you're you're in the got [59:14] rooms within the hotel. You just go [59:15] downstairs to the main room and we we're [59:17] all just sitting there running around. [59:19] People are playing [59:21] poker or where all sorts of things going [59:24] on. Um and if we're lucky, we get Sarah [59:27] up to sing karaoke. [laughter] [59:30] Um, [59:32] >> so that that's [59:32] >> Dungeons and Dragons campaign this year. [59:35] >> Oh, wow. [59:35] >> You are, aren't you? [59:36] >> Apparently. So, [59:37] >> yeah. You're you're doing you're running [59:39] a Dungeon and Dragons uh [59:41] >> full outfit dungeon master style. [59:45] >> Yeah. I mean, it sort of came about by [59:47] doing a talk for merge PHP last week and [59:50] I spoke on domain driven development in [59:53] PHP and I used DND as the example and [59:56] now for some reason I'm doing a DND [59:58] campaign in tech. There you go. Goes [60:01] both ways. That's cool. [60:03] >> So, yeah, like going back to what we [60:05] were saying, the social side of it of a [60:07] of a conference is is great. Um, so [60:11] yeah, so we'll I'm looking forward to [60:13] seeing you in person on Friday. [60:17] >> That'd be good. It'll be nice to meet [60:19] some of our listeners and followers as [60:21] well. Uh, anyone else that's down there. [60:23] And then, um, obviously saying we'll see [60:26] you in Chicago in May. May. [60:29] >> Yeah, that would be great. [60:30] >> We'll get some pizza hopefully. I went [60:32] to uh what was that place called? Not [60:34] Gerard Darnos. Uh sounds like [60:37] Illuminati. Illuminati. That's it. [60:39] Illuminati. [60:41] Oh my freaking god, dude. This pizza was [60:43] out of this world. That's like as soon [60:46] as like the CFP came up, I was like, I'm [60:48] going I'm I gotta go. I gotta go. [60:49] [laughter] [60:51] >> So good. Yeah, we um I remember we [60:55] so this year would be my third. Um but [60:58] the first year I when I was working for [61:00] Pitch Architect, they they flew me out [61:02] to work on it. We went to go and get [61:04] pizza on the on our last night and that [61:06] was get get proper Chicago pizza. That [61:10] was quite an experience. [61:12] >> Joe 100% agrees it is the best and [61:14] anyone who says different is incorrect. [61:19] >> No, no, no. He's [laughter] up in there. [61:21] Well, that [61:24] >> there you go. He's helping you out. [61:26] [laughter] [61:27] >> We'll have to go. All right, Joe, don't [61:29] be sick this year. We we'll have to [61:31] we'll have to arrange as a team. We'll [61:33] go over and get pizza. [61:35] >> Um yeah, one night as a team. Um yeah, [61:38] so that's that's some cool things to [61:40] look forward to. And then you're off to [61:43] you've got Oh, you've got before they [61:45] before tech you've you're off in um [61:49] Lavo EU. [61:51] >> Mhm. [61:52] >> That's Yeah, there's a couple months [61:53] between the two, but yeah. Um I'm [61:55] leaving next Friday is when I fly out. [61:58] So, [61:58] >> right. [62:00] >> Yeah, it's coming up quick. [62:01] >> I know. [62:03] >> Seems a lot a lot of the the conferences [62:05] are earlier on in the year. There's [62:07] quite a few [62:09] >> uh that sort of go through up until [62:11] about June I think is um Laive UK. It's [62:16] in June I think. [62:17] >> You guys want to hear something [62:18] hilarious [62:20] >> totally totally off the topic. So we do [62:23] there's like a quarterly um PHP upstate [62:25] they call it for South Carolina where I [62:28] live. It's about two hours away. Bden uh [62:30] Carchenko puts it on. Jason Begs lives a [62:33] couple hours away. He always comes. Uh [62:35] Matt Stopper shown up a couple times. [62:37] There's some few notables. Stephen Fox, [62:39] who was on the bucket with us. I think [62:41] he's I know he's going to be there. He's [62:42] got a room for the night. Um so I'm [62:46] taking my son out of school like an hour [62:48] early to bring him to bring him to this [62:50] and he's he's excited about it. What [62:52] I've done is in the Telegram group is [62:54] told everybody, let's do we got to prank [62:56] him somehow. And we were like floating [62:58] around ideas to prank my son. And I [63:00] think what we've agreed on is like we're [63:02] going to have like a video game [63:03] intervention. So, like as soon as we sit [63:05] down to start talking about like [63:07] announcements in the whole evening, [63:08] we're all just going to circle. It's [63:10] like 15 or 20 guys, right? Just circle [63:12] around my Sunday like, "Listen, your dad [63:14] loves you a whole lot. [laughter] [63:17] I cannot wait, dude. It's in two days on [63:19] Thursday. [laughter] I'm gonna try to [63:21] get on video. It's gonna be so funny." [63:23] >> And And how how old is your son? [63:26] >> He's 16. He's 16. [63:27] >> Oh, [clears throat] he's old enough to [63:29] take it then. [63:29] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He'll be fine. It's [63:31] not like four years old. That would be [63:32] [laughter] [63:33] It's going to be really cruel. [63:35] >> God, [63:37] >> I was just imagining like this [63:38] 10-year-old bursting into tears of the [63:40] idea of not being able to play games [63:42] anymore. [63:42] >> All your new uncles, you know. [63:44] [laughter] [63:46] >> No, he's he's he's got a good sense of [63:48] humor, too. He's going to get it. It'll [63:50] be funny. So, uh I thought I'd share. [63:54] >> We look forward to the video. [63:55] >> Yeah. [laughter] [63:56] >> You tormenting your son. [63:59] >> Yeah. And there's no chance he'll see [64:01] this. So, I'm I'm totally fine, you [64:04] know, talking about him. [64:05] >> There's no chance he'll see this unless [64:07] I find his socials and send it him. [64:09] >> He doesn't have any. He just doesn't do [64:11] socials. [laughter] Yeah. Good luck. [64:13] Yeah. If you can find it, share it with [64:15] me, man. That's like [laughter] I really [64:17] don't think he's on social. [64:18] >> You've just opened him up for a [64:20] challenge now. [64:21] >> Go for it. Please do. [laughter] Would [64:23] love it. I know he's on Discord. That's [64:26] the only thing that he does like that. [64:27] And he just talks to the same friends [64:29] over and over and YouTube. I don't think [64:31] that's social media, though. [64:33] >> I mean, at 16, probably something like [64:36] Fortnite or somewhere around that kind [64:38] of region. I'd find him on there. [64:39] >> He does video games, but not Fortnite. [64:41] No, I never got into that. [64:43] >> Call of Duty. [64:45] >> Nope. We We had a rule when he was [64:48] growing up like no shoot him up games. I [64:49] just was against like actual killing [64:52] stuff like that for the most part. And [64:54] then he did play a couple that were [64:55] like, "Wait, this is kill you're [64:57] killing." But it's like more cartoon [64:58] character kind of stuff. But uh so you [65:01] win some, you lose some, but he's never [65:02] done the Call of Duty. He's never done [65:04] the Fortnite stuff. Uh he does this one, [65:07] I mean, he's a brainiac, man. Um he does [65:10] this one where it's like a cube that's [65:11] like flashing across the screen. You [65:13] have to jump over like different [65:14] hurdles. I forget what it's called, but [65:16] it's like jumping up and down and like [65:18] you revert uh gravity and he's, you [65:20] know, you're stuck to the top and you [65:21] have to jump and it's very fast-paced [65:23] and uh he's kind of a wizard. [65:25] >> To be honest, it sounds like you're [65:26] describing Mario. [65:28] Not Mario. [laughter] [65:31] That is a square flashing across. It is [65:34] pretty close, actually. [laughter] [65:36] Mario 2. He has a dress now. Um, [65:40] [clears throat] no, he's uh he he's he [65:42] he does pretty good with what he does [65:44] do. He just sucks at doing his homework, [65:47] so he'll get hundreds on his test. If [65:49] you look at his grades, he's got a [65:50] hundred 97 or something in chemistry. [65:53] Advanced biochemics [65:56] with honors, something or other. He's [65:58] got but then you look advanced webpage [66:00] design. I will show his grades on [66:01] screen, dude. I have no shame about this [66:04] at all. Advanced webpage design. He's [66:06] got a 33. And I'm like, you are my kid, [66:08] dude. You [laughter] do not realize you [66:10] are failing miserably. Advanced web page [66:13] design. I'm like, what are you even [66:14] learning in that? He's like something [66:16] about like detecting the width of the [66:18] screen and like the media. I'm like [66:20] media queries. He's like, yeah, [66:22] responsive something. I'm like, yeah, [66:24] what the hell, [laughter] dude? I don't [66:26] know this stuff. something about a [66:28] viewport. I'm like, "Yes, [66:30] [laughter] it's crazy." [66:31] >> But then by the time [clears throat] [66:33] he's finished school and looking at a [66:35] career, he won't need any of that [66:36] anyway. [66:37] >> No. No. It's good to know the B. I mean, [66:39] just like what we do now, the more [66:41] >> the more we know like the better [66:43] developers we were like architecturally [66:45] and stuff, we know when to correct the [66:47] AI. people that are just vibe coding for [66:48] vibe coding sake. [66:50] >> I don't want to I'm scared to download [66:52] any software anywhere because I don't [66:54] know how much I can trust it if it was [66:56] really vibe coded like that. [66:59] >> So [66:59] >> yes, that's certainly certainly the the [67:01] hot hot topic. [67:03] >> It certainly is [67:04] >> about Yeah, vibe coing coding. Um it's [67:09] interesting because um for I don't know [67:12] if I've mentioned this to you guys when [67:14] you're on the show before. I'm actually [67:16] doing a uh CS degree at the moment [67:18] through the Open University. [67:20] >> Nice. [67:20] >> Oh, I think we did talk about this [67:22] because you're telling me to do my [67:24] assignment with P. [67:26] >> Yeah, [67:27] >> which I didn't in the end. I did [67:28] actually do it as I was supposed to. Um, [67:32] but I'm tempted to build the same the [67:34] same app in uh native PHP and see see [67:38] what it's like, see how much easier it [67:40] is and how much more I understand of the [67:42] actual code. Um but we there was [67:44] actually part of the assignment there is [67:46] there was a a question that I had to use [67:49] AI for and then you go through or you [67:51] learn all these um talked about um how [67:55] to [67:57] um verify all the references and things [67:59] like that. And all it was was I had to [68:01] ask it to write the first draft of a [68:05] report that I needed to add to the [68:08] assignment. So I got it to do it and [68:09] then I I basically rewrote the whole [68:11] thing just from what it churned out. Um [68:15] I just used more of the headings really. [68:18] Um but there was a whole section about [68:20] using it to vibe code. So even in the [68:23] degrees they're talking about vibe code [68:25] and they're telling you you've got to [68:27] you can't just rely on it. There are [68:30] there are mistakes. You've got to verify [68:32] everything. Uh, and yeah, when I've, as [68:37] I said at the beginning, the top of the [68:38] show that I've been using claw to to [68:40] build a couple of apps in um in native [68:44] PHP, I'm I'm looking at the code. I'm [68:46] always reviewing the code and going, do [68:48] I understand every line of that code? Do [68:50] I know what that is doing? If I don't, [68:52] then I'm checking it. Um, I'm never just [68:55] going, "Yeah, that's fine. That's fine. [68:57] That's fine." Um, the only time I do [68:58] that is when it's writing JavaScript, [69:00] but then I'm going to call Chris to [69:01] check it for me. he's going to he can [69:04] code check the the JavaScript for me [69:06] because I look at JavaScript and I just [69:08] don't know what's going on. But um [69:10] >> neither do most JavaScript developers. [69:13] [laughter] [69:14] >> Shush. We're supposed to be trying to [69:16] sell them JStech and now you're [69:17] >> that's why you're selling tickets to JS [69:19] so they can come and learn. [69:20] >> Come and learn. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean [69:23] it I do I do um exaggerate the the my [69:27] skills with not not exaggerate my [69:30] exaggerate my hateful JS for JavaScript. [69:33] But the the important message is is you [69:37] vibe code. You can't just vibe code. You [69:39] got as you say you've got to have that [69:42] fundamental knowledge of development and [69:44] understand when you look at things it [69:47] does it doesn't look right. And there's [69:49] been times when I've done it and I've [69:50] looked at things and thought, I don't [69:52] remember that function ever being in [69:54] PHP. Look it up. And lo and behold, it's [69:57] not in PHP. It doesn't exist. It because [70:00] of the where it's learning how to code. [70:03] There's what the biggest place is [70:06] probably Stack Overflow. [70:07] >> And let's have a look at Stack Overflow. [70:09] The ratio of good answers to bad [70:12] answers. [70:15] And and then you get responses from [70:17] Claude as well when it does something [70:19] like that and invents a function. You're [70:21] absolutely right. And why did you use it [70:24] in the first place? [laughter] [70:27] >> I I'm not finding that really honestly [70:30] at all doing Laravel stuff with it. I I [70:34] don't know whether it's the the tools. [70:37] Maybe it's also just like a lot of the [70:39] things that we've been doing recently [70:40] have been very green fields rather than [70:43] like [70:43] >> brownfield projects. But [70:46] >> I do I do have a sense that um there's [70:50] something about like wellestablished [70:53] tools like Laravel [70:55] >> and the tooling. Yeah. well doumented [70:58] uh lots of examples of of wellbuilt [71:01] projects in open-source code that the [71:04] LLM have been able to troll through [71:06] >> that just makes it a lot more reliable, [71:09] you know, to to go and build on top of [71:12] using the LLM. [71:14] Um, yeah, I'm but that's [71:18] purely anecdotal because I just don't [71:22] I'm not working on lots of other [71:24] projects and that kind of thing. [71:26] >> There's a there's another point there [71:27] too. My dad is also he's getting into [71:30] open claw. He hasn't touched a computer [71:31] in like a year and a half or something. [71:33] Um, and I last time I saw him I gave him [71:36] one of my old MacBooks and so he's like [71:37] fished it out. He's like I don't have to [71:38] buy a Mac Mini and he's like playing [71:40] with us and he's loving it. He's got a [71:42] SSH to an old Windows box that's got [71:45] Linux a Linux box up and so he's having [71:48] it do some stuff there and it's talking [71:50] back and forth whatever. But he's [71:52] telling me like like as he's telling me [71:55] this, I had it like sharply like that's [71:57] not how you talk to AI because he is [72:00] like it'll go and do something and it [72:02] will completely forget something. And [72:04] it's like gaslighting him into thinking [72:06] that it's doing something right. And [72:08] then his response to it, what his words [72:11] to me were was, "You always do that and [72:14] I I don't like it when you do that." And [72:16] it's like, "Yeah, you're right. I'm [72:18] sorry. I'll change. That'll be the last [72:20] time." And I'm like, "Dad, that is [72:21] wrong. You can't. You're almost [72:23] affirming it by saying that. You have to [72:25] correct it. You have to say, don't do [72:28] that anymore. Not point out the bad [72:30] behavior. Pointing out the bad behavior [72:32] does not tell it to fix itself. Tell it [72:34] to fix itself." You know what I mean? [72:36] >> And so, he's gotten a little bit uh [72:38] better results with with just changing [72:40] the mindset, but he's very good at [72:41] complaining. Loves to complain. And so, [72:44] I think that's what he's like, "Don't be [72:45] dumb. Just don't be like, "Sorry, I [72:48] won't be dumb anymore." or like it's you [72:49] haven't fixed a thing, you [laughter] [72:50] know, [72:52] >> don't be dumb. [72:53] >> I mean, my my example of finding it or [72:57] trying to write things with functions [72:59] that don't exist is I haven't had that [73:02] for a while. I think um like you're [73:04] saying with Simon with uh things like [73:06] Laravel now with Laravel Boost, [73:09] it has [clears throat] massively [73:10] improved the way that we can use um use [73:14] AI to build things. But you still we [73:17] still need that fundamental [73:19] understanding of programming to to be [73:21] able to do that. Um unfortunately I [73:24] think we might have lost Simon [73:27] that way. [73:28] >> He looks great. [73:29] >> He's borrowed Eric's connection. [73:32] [laughter] [73:33] >> He's like I'm just gonna pause and think [73:37] about the master of statues. [73:40] >> I'm looking at the plants and the plants [73:42] moving. No, I think he's frozen. I [73:45] [snorts] think we've lost him. On that [73:46] note, I think we should probably wrap [73:48] things up now. Um, [73:51] so, uh, thank you very much for for [73:54] joining us. Um, [73:57] >> thanks for having us. [73:59] >> Yeah, it's been [74:00] >> I mean, we're always looking for [74:00] opportunities to to get the word out [74:02] there. So, we appreciate another [74:03] platform. [74:04] >> Yeah. And the speed the speed you guys [74:06] are turning things out and and improving [74:08] things. Um, [74:09] >> we'll see you at the end of March. [74:11] >> Yeah. [laughter] We'll have you on again [74:13] again. Um, but excited to to meet you [74:17] properly in uh in May at uh [74:20] >> should be fun [74:21] >> PHP Tech. That'll be awesome. Um, if [74:24] Simon can hear us, we'll see him on [74:26] Friday. [laughter] [74:28] >> I don't know if he can hear us or not. [74:29] Um, [74:29] >> hopefully hopefully he'll see him on [74:31] Friday. [laughter] [74:35] >> He'll be still in that statue like that. [74:37] He won't be. [74:38] >> Oh god. [74:40] >> I'm the sole owner now of native PHP. [74:42] They're still a lot maintainer, I guess. [74:44] Yeah. [74:45] >> Well, surely then there's a bit of money [74:46] now to hire PP architect. [74:48] >> Exactly. Exactly. We can [74:50] >> Yeah, [laughter] [74:53] >> there you go. [74:54] >> So, if if anyone hadn't realized that we [74:57] are also a a studio and do uh client [75:00] work um [75:02] >> which apparently some people don't [75:03] realize we it's not just a magazine, not [75:05] just a conference and podcast. We we [75:08] actually do code [75:10] >> on a daily basis. most of us. [75:13] >> Um Oh, Simon has [75:15] >> Simon has returned. [75:20] >> Let's bring you back in. [75:21] >> Hey. [75:22] >> Hey. [laughter] [75:25] >> Was it like this is the sound? [75:26] >> Yeah, it's pretty close. Yeah, [75:29] [laughter] [75:29] >> that was pretty. That's okay. Um [75:32] [clears throat] okay, we're just just [75:34] wrapping up. So, Simon, thank you very [75:35] much for joining us uh this evening. uh [75:37] look forward to uh meeting you in person [75:40] on on Friday and chatting with you. Um [75:42] however, I think there's going to be a [75:44] bit of a fight for your time. I could [75:46] imagine you're going to be quite popular [75:47] on Friday. [75:48] >> So, [75:49] >> he's popular today. [75:50] >> Well, yeah, I know. [laughter] [75:52] Do you know what I mean? There's going [75:55] to be a lot of people there in person [75:57] that would like to pull him aside and [75:59] bend about things. [76:01] >> I'm I'm sure there will be Yeah. the the [76:04] small groups hovering and then plucking [76:07] up the courage to come and say hello [76:09] which I will welcome. Uh it's not it's [76:12] not going to hold a candle to what [76:14] happened in India which was just [76:17] stream of people crowds of people coming [76:20] up everyone asking multiple questions at [76:23] the same time. [laughter] [76:25] >> So uh it'll be fine. I think it'll be [76:28] all right. [76:29] >> Are you staying in London Friday night? [76:31] Are you going to be around for the [76:32] social afterwards? [76:34] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [76:35] >> Yeah. That'll be that'll be a good time [76:36] to to bend your ear a bit once we've all [76:38] got beers in us. [76:41] >> Yeah. [76:41] >> So, yeah. Uh it' be great to see some [76:43] some people there. As me me and Chris [76:46] will also be there. We'll be bringing [76:48] some stickers down if you like stickers. [76:50] Um we got big we got flashy business [76:53] cards as well now to [76:55] >> you can't exactly miss us in a crowd, [76:57] can you? [76:57] >> No, we will be we'll be wearing these [76:59] tops. So, if you're looking for us, just [77:01] look for the orange dots, [77:02] >> the parking attendants. We [laughter] [77:04] can only try. We can only try, Chris. [77:07] >> Well, [77:09] anyway, um, thank you again, you two, [77:12] for for joining us this evening. Um, [77:14] it's always great fun having you on and [77:16] chatting about all the cool stuff that [77:17] you're doing [77:18] >> in the PHP world at the moment. Um, [77:20] thank you everyone for listening. Um, do [77:23] remember though, we uh do have our [77:25] Discord channel. It's not just for [77:27] whilst we're live. you can join in the [77:30] chat all um all week long. There's all [77:33] sorts of people in there. Um all four of [77:36] us are in there. I think Simon, you're [77:38] in our in our Discord, aren't you? Yeah. [77:40] So, if you've got any more any more [77:42] questions then, um yeah, pop them in our [77:44] Discord and someone will definitely [77:46] answer them. There's all sorts of people [77:48] in there, package maintainers, uh people [77:50] in PHP internals. Um so, there's some [77:54] amazing questions and conversations go [77:56] on week weekly. [77:59] Yeah. [78:00] >> Yep. [78:01] >> And next week we have another guest. He [78:04] should have been on last week and wasn't [78:06] well. [78:07] >> So we've got Ben Ramsey with us next [78:09] week. So we're gonna [78:11] >> Gordon Ramsey. [78:12] >> No. [laughter] [78:15] >> Yeah, we're not that high pro yet. [78:17] >> Wow. [78:17] >> I mean, if Gordon Ramsey did start as a [78:20] footballer, then became a cook. So if we [78:22] can convince him to start doing code, we [78:24] can probably get him on. [78:26] [laughter] [78:29] Oh dear. Yeah. So Ben Ben Ramsey um he's [78:33] he will be joining us next week. We'll [78:35] be talking about what we talking about [78:38] um [78:39] contributing to PHP. [78:41] >> Contributing to PHP RFC's all of that [78:44] kind [78:45] >> process. [78:46] >> And I'm also going to grill him to [78:47] explain the entirety of UUID in one [78:50] minute. [78:51] >> Well, that's that's a bit mean, but [78:53] hopefully he's listening. So he's now [78:54] got a week to prepare that one minute [78:56] talk. [laughter] Could you just imagine [78:59] an elevator pitch for a UU ID though [79:03] >> if if you don't know Ben Ben is the [79:05] creator of the UID package that pretty [79:08] much everyone uses in PHP. [79:11] Um just to let you know. Um yes. So [79:14] that's our Discord. If you're on our [79:16] YouTube channel, please do like and [79:17] subscribe. Help us get these videos out [79:19] to more people in the in the universe. [79:23] Um, don't forget we've got our magazine [79:25] discount. A live three will give you the [79:27] first three months of our annual digital [79:30] subscription to our magazine PHP [79:33] Architect where we talk about lots of [79:36] things mainly all about PHP and [79:38] development things all around. Um, don't [79:42] forget tickets for PHP tech uh still [79:46] available. Um, do come and join us as we [79:48] talked about earlier. It's one of it's [79:51] one of my favorite um conferences. Uh [79:53] just a lot of it purely because of the [79:55] socializing as we said. Um but there'll [79:58] be some amazing talks. Uh all the all [80:00] the talk speakers have been announced. [80:02] You can go. Has his schedule been [80:04] announced or is it? I don't think the [80:06] schedule's out yet. [80:08] >> Don't know. [80:08] >> Anyway, um JStech will be also running [80:11] for the first time ever alongside PHP [80:14] Tech. And as we've mentioned, if you buy [80:16] a ticket, you can go to either one of [80:17] the talks. don't not penned into one [80:20] side of the talk. So we we are we've got [80:24] so basically it's four tracks I think. [80:26] >> Mhm. [80:28] >> Unless John's miscounted and invited too [80:30] many speakers again which he has done. [80:34] He's got form for that. But uh yeah [80:36] that'll be there'll be four uh four [80:38] tracks. One track will be dedicated [80:40] solely to JavaScript. Uh, don't forget [80:43] to head head over to our swag store [80:47] where you can pick up some pretty cool [80:49] t-shirts, hats. Um, there's some cups, [80:52] mugs, and all sorts of things there. Uh, [80:54] so do head over and see uh see what you [80:57] can grab there. Uh, once again, thank [81:00] you very much for giving us your time uh [81:03] this evening. And uh don't forget [81:06] everyone. Yeah, the vibes after uh [81:10] Laravel. [81:14] >> Laracon US. [81:16] >> Oh, you should have let him dry. [81:18] >> Laracon US. I've just got really dry all [81:21] of a sudden. Um Laracon US. And that [81:25] that sounds like a really cool. If I [81:27] could get over there for that then I I'd [81:29] definitely be joining you. But uh I'm [81:31] not sure if I can make that journey. [81:33] Unfortunately, [81:33] >> food will be great. [81:36] the company too, I I think. [81:39] [laughter] [81:40] >> And if you haven't seen enough of Simon, [81:42] well, there's an entire course of him on [81:43] Lariccasts on that link right there. [81:50] Pph, which is a lot easier to read if [81:53] you're on YouTube. [81:56] >> Yeah, I do have to remember we have some [81:57] audio listeners only and we never always [82:00] read out all the links that we put up. [82:01] So, if you're listening and we haven't [82:02] read out some, go to YouTube, watch the [82:04] video. Whilst you're there, like and [82:06] subscribe. Thank you very much. [82:07] >> And whilst you're there, give the video [82:09] a thumbs up. [82:12] >> Well, that's liking it. I've said that [82:14] bit, but never mind. [82:15] >> Oh, but John calls it thumbs up, not [82:17] like. [82:18] >> Oh, okay. Thumb thumb thumbs up it and [82:21] like it and subscribe to the channel. [82:25] >> It sounds painful. [laughter] [82:28] depends on London. I guess [82:31] >> on that note, I'm going to say good [82:34] night [82:35] if I can find the right outro. Good [82:38] night, guys. Thank you very much. ## Highlights - about all the cool stuff happening in uh PHP. I'm Mike Paige and my co-host over there is Chris. >> Hello. We are brought to you by PHP Architect and made better by our partners at PHP Score. but more about them uh later. Um before we get into today's show, we've got a few things we want to talk about. Um first of all, if you're listening to us uh live on on YouTube right now, head over to our Discord where you can join ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjbaqqz1t6yqxz8kpk8fttcn)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - in the chat. Um please, this is a live recording, so do get in there. Um let's have some questions for our guests. I'm sure there's going to be a lot of excitement about the subjects we're going to be talking about today. Um whilst you're on YouTube, hit the like and subscribe button. that would be great. We do have for you a um magazine discount. We produce a monthly magazine all about PHP. Uh if you use the uh code Alive 3, you'll get the first three months of uh the digital annual ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjbaqqz7j1ps9te3mzvy2968)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - so many people are like wait you can do mobile from PHP like they didn't even know anything about this. So it's like it's still there's still a lot of uh there's a lot of people that uh we have yet to uh uh understand what's going on here like trying to see what we're we're all about here. So uh the more the more avenues that we can shout from the better I feel. uh it's just going to make the whole core of everything that much better and enable us to do things like make it free in the first place, you know. So, that was a struggle and a a lot of work to get to that point and a ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjbaqqztz7fjnjg9gpep1ajf)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - for. You're right." You know, it's like, "No, actually, I I misspoke." You know, [laughter] >> it's not it's not just that it's gone, it's free. You've done a lot more work. Um that's that's exciting. Excites me. Um, we did we have this is the second time you've been on the show with us and we talked about this before and uh I am I am pleased to tell you both that I have now started uh not just a mobile app but a desktop app as well. >> Two different projects. When I say I ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjbaqr0e5tth4m7j3e1b2yka)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - started them, Claude did it for me. [laughter] >> Yeah, that's even better. Actually, we spent a lot of time training AI on it. So, that's good. >> So, yeah. Um, I I have got two projects that I'm I'm sort of going back and forth and and doing little bits on and playing around with it and it's it's awesome. It's so cool. But you've made it even better. >> Yeah. >> For for what have we got? I've just got the announcement up. So, a big announcement about plugins. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's probably one of my favorite ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjbaqr17k0j5dynr7at428mv)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - >> Figure out what's going on. >> I'm hoping you don't need to watch it because you should [laughter] know how to use the product. Well, should. >> All right, on that note, let's uh let's hear from our sponsors. >> Thank you to our partners at phpscore.com. Every app builds up technical debt over time. It's the price we pay for shipping new features and moving fast. When we build up too much of it, though, it [music] can start to impact how we work. Team velocity suffers. Bugs become more ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjbaqr3dxt00dwmcfmkndss1)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - that uh native PHP for mobile just works for was it uh was it TV? >> TV. >> I think it was TV. So, just for TV out of the box, it just works. I played with it in an emulator. Um they had it actually working, I think. Uh but it just kind of works. So you can build TV apps apparently. And um we do want to we do want to expand. Uh I think something Simon said and we I very careful and cautious saying this. We want to hire people, right? Every time I've said that ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjbaqrag4nknbttpfehz00j1)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - environment to go and build your application for you and it's showing you a preview as it's making changes. I would love to demo it, but [laughter] I can't because it's been broken. But um >> yeah, it's it's so it's cool because you know like if you're getting if you're just like dipping your toe in this space of like using clawed code um opus you ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjbaqrkk856hgw09gtfpm6ep)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - opportunities to to get the word out there. So, we appreciate another platform. >> Yeah. And the speed the speed you guys are turning things out and and improving things. Um, >> we'll see you at the end of March. >> Yeah. [laughter] We'll have you on again again. Um, but excited to to meet you properly in uh in May at uh >> should be fun >> PHP Tech. That'll be awesome. Um, if Simon can hear us, we'll see him on Friday. [laughter] >> I don't know if he can hear us or not. Um, >> hopefully hopefully he'll see him on ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjbaqsct525mx062pjxj1yne)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - subscription to our magazine PHP Architect where we talk about lots of things mainly all about PHP and development things all around. Um, don't forget tickets for PHP tech uh still available. Um, do come and join us as we talked about earlier. It's one of it's one of my favorite um conferences. Uh just a lot of it purely because of the socializing as we said. Um but there'll be some amazing talks. Uh all the all ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjbaqt4tgqcptwc0yw7qxbsx)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted