Spiritual CoveringSpiritual Mother and FatherHonor CultureCharismatic - EP #3

Spiritual Covering/Spiritual Mother and Father/Honor CultureCharismatic - EP #3 ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/XOSj9XEjdXA/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [Spiritual Covering/Spiritual Mother and Father/Honor CultureCharismatic - EP #3](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOSj9XEjdXA) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: #spiritual-abuse #honor-culture #pastoral-authority #spiritual-covering #new-apostolic-reformation #church-governance #religious-manipulation #cult-dynamics #spiritual-discernment #biblical-authority #shepherding-movement #false-teaching > author: Jake Nelson > source: East Market Church / YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOSj9XEjdXA > date created: 2024-12-19 14:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: Spiritual Covering/Spiritual Mother and Father/Honor Culture - Charismatic Episode 3 >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Research church history on any teaching claiming to be "new revelation" — verify against historical record #spiritual-discernment - [H2] Evaluate church leadership structure for excessive authority claims — check for "spiritual covering" doctrine #church-governance - [H3] Assess author/teacher associations before consuming content — Google "[name] false teacher" #spiritual-discernment ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [[#📝 Summary]] - [[#📖 Main Content]] - [[#🗒️ Notes]] - [[#📚 References]] - [[#🗣️ Paraphrase]] - [[#📰 Newsletter]] - [[#✅ Action Items]] - [[#🧪 Hypotheses]] - [[#📊 Methodology]] - [[#❓ Questions]] - [[#🔮 Future Research]] - [[#💡 Implications]] - [[#🧠 Learning Styles Assessment]] - [[#📊 Accessibility Assessment]] - [[#🌍 DEIB Assessment]] - [[#✅ Logical Validity]] - [[#🛡️ DARVO Analysis]] - [[#🎯 Conclusion]] ### 🔗 References - [East Market Church](https://eastmarketchurch.com) - [Long for Truth YouTube Channel](https://youtube.com) ## 📝 Summary Pastor Jake Nelson examines the dangerous "honor culture" movement in charismatic Christianity, tracing its roots from the 1970s Shepherding Movement through modern manifestations in the New Apostolic Reformation. He explains how teachings about "spiritual covering," excessive pastoral authority, and claims that "rebellion is witchcraft" create environments ripe for spiritual abuse. The discussion includes analysis of influential books, problematic leaders like Mike Bickle and John Bevere, and real-world cases of abuse including Nelson's own experience in Ernest Angley's cult-like church. ## 📖 Main Content Honor culture represents a modern distortion of biblical teaching about spiritual authority that emerged in the 1970s charismatic movement. Unlike historical Christian practice, this movement requires believers to seek pastoral approval for basic life decisions and teaches that questioning leadership equals rebellion and witchcraft. The system creates unhealthy dependency through "spiritual covering" doctrine, where believers supposedly need pastoral protection to receive God's blessing. This teaching has enabled widespread spiritual and sexual abuse across multiple high-profile ministries while using biblical language to maintain control over congregants' lives. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/XOSj9XEjdXA?t=0) — [H1] Introduction to Honor Culture Problems - Key idea: Excessive elevation of spiritual leaders creates environments for spiritual abuse - Evidence: "When we hold spiritual leaders up too high on a pedestal, it can lead to a lot of problems" #### ⏱️ [02:15](https://youtu.be/XOSj9XEjdXA?t=135) — [H2] Biblical Commands vs. Twisted Honor - Key idea: Scripture contains legitimate honor commands that get distorted for manipulation - Evidence: "The Bible's full of instructions to honor... but unhealthy honor can be used to abuse others" #### ⏱️ [05:30](https://youtu.be/XOSj9XEjdXA?t=330) — [H1] Historical Origins in the 1970s Shepherding Movement - Key idea: Honor culture is not ancient Christian teaching but emerged 50 years ago - Evidence: "If you trace this back... in the 70s this movement began and surprise of all surprises, it started in the charismatic movement" #### ⏱️ [08:45](https://youtu.be/XOSj9XEjdXA?t=525) — [H2] The Fort Lauderdale Five Leaders - Key idea: Five men founded the shepherding movement with problematic assumptions about authority - Evidence: "Charles Simpson, Bob Mumford, Derek Prince, Don Basham, Ern Baxter... they were supposed to apply accountability to each other" #### ⏱️ [12:20](https://youtu.be/XOSj9XEjdXA?t=740) — [H1] William Branham's Influence on Absolute Pastoral Authority - Key idea: The movement built on Branham's heretical teaching about unquestioning submission - Evidence: "William Branham had this idea that people in churches should just have unquestioning submission to their pastors" #### ⏱️ [15:10](https://youtu.be/XOSj9XEjdXA?t=910) — [H2] "Rebellion is Witchcraft" - Misuse of Scripture - Key idea: 1 Samuel 15:23 taken out of context to control congregations - Evidence: "Rebellion is as the sin of divination... but if you read the rest of the verse... this is an actual prophecy from a prophet to a king" #### ⏱️ [18:30](https://youtu.be/XOSj9XEjdXA?t=1110) — [H1] Spiritual Covering Doctrine Creates Fear - Key idea: Teaching that God's blessing requires pastoral covering creates unhealthy dependency - Evidence: "Without one, God won't bless you... but if you rebel and come outside of that spiritual covering, you'll fall under God's curse" #### ⏱️ [22:45](https://youtu.be/XOSj9XEjdXA?t=1365) — [H2] Movement Repackaging After Collapse - Key idea: When exposed, false teachings get rebranded rather than abandoned - Evidence: "Most of the original five leaders eventually disavowed the movement... but they tweak a few things, repackage it, and another movement is born" #### ⏱️ [26:15](https://youtu.be/XOSj9XEjdXA?t=1575) — [H1] John Bevere's "Under Cover" Book Analysis - Key idea: Bevere's influential book mainstreamed shepherding movement ideas for modern audiences - Evidence: "John Bevere's book in particular was one that took a lot of these shephering movement ideas and really expanded on it" #### ⏱️ [35:20](https://youtu.be/XOSj9XEjdXA?t=2120) — [H2] Bevere's Problematic Associations and Claims - Key idea: Bevere's background with Benny Hinn and frequent "God spoke to me" claims are red flags - Evidence: "John Bevere started with none other than Benny Hinn... he talks about all this special revelation that he gets from God" #### ⏱️ [42:10](https://youtu.be/XOSj9XEjdXA?t=2530) — [H1] Jesus' Warning Against Spiritual Fathers/Mothers - Key idea: Matthew 23:8-10 warns against inflated spiritual titles and excessive authority - Evidence: "Don't call anyone on earth your father. For one is your father, he who is in heaven" #### ⏱️ [45:30](https://youtu.be/XOSj9XEjdXA?t=2730) — [H2] Mike Bickle IHOP Sexual Abuse Scandal - Key idea: Honor culture environments enable abuse by making leaders unquestionable - Evidence: News footage of IHOP investigation with allegations of "clergy sexual abuse by Mike Bickle against several victims" #### ⏱️ [50:45](https://youtu.be/XOSj9XEjdXA?t=3045) — [H1] Pattern of Abuse in Kansas City Prophets - Key idea: Multiple leaders from Kansas City prophetic movement have faced serious allegations - Evidence: "Bob Jones was removed back in the late 90s after having women come into his office, take their clothes off, and be naked before the Lord" #### ⏱️ [55:20](https://youtu.be/XOSj9XEjdXA?t=3320) — [H2] Ernest Angley Cult Case Study - Key idea: Nelson's personal experience shows extreme control possible under honor culture - Evidence: "The most appalling thing... Reverend Angley has so much sway over his members that he can talk them into getting vasectomies and abortions" #### ⏱️ [60:15](https://youtu.be/XOSj9XEjdXA?t=3615) — [H1] Defending Abusive Leaders Through "Attack of the Devil" Narrative - Key idea: Honor culture teaches that criticism of leaders is spiritual warfare against God's anointed - Evidence: "Every single time allegations came out, the church would rally around him, saying it was an attack of the devil" ## 📚 References - [East Market Church](https://eastmarketchurch.com/) - [1 Timothy 5:17 - Honoring Elders](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%205:17) - [Matthew 23:8-10 - Warning Against Titles](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2023:8-10) - [1 Samuel 15:23 - Rebellion Context](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%2015:23) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Honor culture emerged in the 1970s charismatic movement, teaching that believers need "spiritual covering" from pastors and that questioning leadership equals rebellion and witchcraft - This system creates unhealthy dependency where people cannot make basic life decisions without pastoral approval, enabling spiritual and sexual abuse - Key warning signs include churches calling pastors "mama/papa," emphasis on "spiritual fathers/mothers," "apostolic covering," and claims that criticism of leaders is demonic attack ## 📰 Newsletter **Breaking Down Honor Culture: Protecting Your Church from Spiritual Abuse** Pastor Jake Nelson exposes the dangerous "honor culture" movement that's created environments for widespread spiritual abuse in charismatic churches. Unlike biblical respect for spiritual authority, this 50-year-old teaching system requires believers to seek pastoral approval for basic life decisions. **Key Warning Signs:** - Churches calling pastors "mama" or "papa" - Teaching that "rebellion is witchcraft" - Requiring "spiritual covering" for God's blessing - Claims that questioning leaders is demonic attack **Biblical Response:** Jesus specifically warned against inflated spiritual titles (Matthew 23:8-10) and excessive authority over believers' lives. **Practical Steps:** Research any teacher's background and associations. Check claims against church history. Remember that legitimate spiritual authority equips believers for independence, not dependence. Resources: [Biblical Authority Studies](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [Church History Resources](https://developer.wordpress.org/), [Spiritual Discernment Training](https://wp-cli.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### Community - Maintainers: Develop educational resources on healthy vs. unhealthy spiritual authority structures - Contributors: Create documentation on red flags for spiritual abuse in religious communities - Sponsors: Fund research into cult recovery and spiritual abuse prevention programs #### WordPress - Community: Develop content guidelines for religious content that avoid promoting spiritual abuse - Training: Create educational materials on healthy leadership structures for faith-based organizations - Documentation: Establish resources for identifying and reporting spiritual manipulation online - Accessibility: Ensure abuse prevention resources are available in multiple languages and formats #### FAIR - Technical independence: Ensure religious content platforms cannot suppress legitimate criticism of spiritual leaders - Policies: Develop transparency requirements for religious organizations receiving platform benefits - Governance artifacts: Create accountability structures that prevent concentration of unchecked authority ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Religious movements claiming "new revelation" are more likely to develop abusive authority structures than those grounded in historical Christian teaching - Churches with excessive pastoral authority show higher rates of spiritual and sexual abuse than those with distributed leadership accountability - Honor culture teachings correlate with delayed reporting of abuse due to doctrinal conditioning against questioning leadership - Geographic isolation combined with honor culture doctrine increases severity and duration of spiritual abuse cases ### 📊 Methodology - Historical analysis comparing abuse rates in traditional denominations vs. New Apostolic Reformation churches - Survey data on decision-making autonomy in different church governance structures - Case study analysis of spiritual abuse patterns across multiple religious movements ### ❓ Questions - How can churches implement biblical authority structures while maintaining safeguards against abuse? - What role does theological education play in preventing acceptance of honor culture teachings? - How do online platforms inadvertently amplify spiritual manipulation tactics? ### 🔮 Future Research - Longitudinal study of cult recovery outcomes based on intervention methods - Analysis of legal frameworks for addressing spiritual abuse in religious contexts - Investigation of social media's role in spreading and countering honor culture teachings ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Churches need clear policies distinguishing biblical respect from unhealthy dependency - Policy: Legal frameworks may need updating to address spiritual abuse alongside other forms of religious harm - Security: Online religious communities require safeguards against manipulative authority claims - Education: Seminary curricula should include training on recognizing and preventing spiritual abuse patterns - Funding: Resources needed for cult recovery services and spiritual abuse prevention programs ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 10th-11th grade (Flesch-Kincaid) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Video content with news footage and historical photos - Improve: Timeline diagrams of honor culture development, organizational charts showing healthy vs. unhealthy authority structures #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full audio presentation with clear narration - Improve: 5-minute summary podcast, accompanying audio descriptions for visual elements #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear definitions, historical context, biblical term explanations - Improve: Glossary of cult terminology, comparison charts between movements #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Real-world case studies, step-by-step historical development - Improve: Interactive checklist for evaluating church authority structures, hands-on exercises for biblical interpretation #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear cause-and-effect progression from doctrine to abuse - Improve: Decision trees for evaluating spiritual authority claims, systematic methodology for church evaluation #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community discussion of shared experiences, collective evaluation - Improve: Support group guidance, peer accountability frameworks for healthy churches #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Personal reflection prompts, individual assessment tools - Improve: Self-guided study materials, journaling exercises for processing church experiences #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Organic development patterns in religious movements - Improve: Ecosystem metaphors for healthy vs. toxic church environments ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, descriptive video timestamps - Improve: More detailed alt text for historical images, ARIA labels for complex content sections #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard YouTube controls accessible via keyboard - Improve: Transcript navigation shortcuts, skip links for different topic sections #### Contrast and readability - Present: Clear video presentation with good lighting - Improve: High-contrast transcript options, adjustable text sizing for notes #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive transcript formatting - Improve: Zoom-friendly layout that maintains functionality at 200% magnification #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript available, clear audio narration - Improve: Professional closed captions with speaker identification, downloadable transcript formats #### Forms and interactions - Present: Simple video controls and basic interaction - Improve: Accessible feedback forms for reporting abuse, keyboard-navigable resource links ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: US-focused case studies with some global religious movement context - Improve: International examples of honor culture, diverse cultural perspectives on spiritual authority #### Inclusive language - Present: Gender-neutral terms when discussing victims, respectful treatment of religious beliefs - Improve: Sensitivity to various denominational backgrounds, trauma-informed language throughout #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear structure, logical progression, consistent formatting - Improve: Visual content summaries, varied learning modalities, sensory considerations for trauma survivors #### Representation - Present: Both male and female voices in examples, diverse leadership --- ## Full Transcript [00:01] When we hold spiritual leaders up too [00:03] high on a pedestal, it can lead to a lot [00:06] of problems. And one of them is honor [00:08] culture. This can show up in cringy ways [00:11] like churches that called their pastor [00:13] mama or papa, which totally gross, but [00:17] it can also go all the way to spiritual [00:18] abuse. And on this episode of the [00:20] podcast, I'm going to be talking about [00:22] honor culture, where it came from, how [00:24] it's not scriptural, and I want to show [00:26] you some examples of it going too far [00:28] and some of the people involved. So, if [00:31] you're wondering about maybe your [00:33] leadership, you're seeing some red [00:34] flags, you're not so sure what to do [00:36] with this whole honor culture thing, [00:38] maybe you're not able to even make [00:39] decisions on your own without getting [00:40] the pastor's okay, you're going to want [00:42] to stick with me. Of course, it's [00:44] completely your decision, but I hope you [00:47] do. [00:48] [Music] [00:53] [Applause] [00:55] [Music] [01:03] Hi, my name is Jake Nelson and I'm the [01:04] pastor at East Market Church in Akran, [01:07] Ohio. And this is RE E3. I want to [01:10] encourage people to re-evaluate some of [01:13] their beliefs, actually take them to [01:14] scripture, learn to renew their mind, [01:16] and reconstruct faith. So maybe you've [01:19] left a church because you had an [01:20] abusive authoritarian leader. Or maybe [01:23] you're in a church right now and you're [01:24] seeing some things that don't quite seem [01:28] scriptural, but you don't know what to [01:30] do about it. And this will be hopefully [01:32] helpful to you [01:34] today. Honor culture, honoring [01:37] leadership, touch not God's anointed, [01:39] spiritual covering. There's a lot of [01:41] ways that this is communicated that our [01:43] leaders are meant to be honored like [01:45] above and beyond anything else. And it's [01:47] tough for Christians because the Bible's [01:49] full of instructions to honor. Kids are [01:52] supposed to honor their parents. Wives [01:54] are to honor their husbands. Husbands [01:56] are to love their wives. That's also [01:57] honor is involved in that, too. We're [02:00] supposed to honor honor each [02:02] other. In fact, we're supposed to honor [02:04] other parts of the body of Christ that [02:06] are less presentable. So some of the [02:08] background people, the ones that do the [02:10] jobs that are kind of thankless, we're [02:11] supposed to honor them. Unhealthy honor, [02:14] though, can be used to abuse others [02:17] because when the commands in scripture [02:20] start to be twisted that have to do with [02:22] honor, it can lead us down a road that [02:25] we find ourselves under a total [02:27] authoritarian leader. And you have these [02:30] pastors who rule the church and not just [02:33] the church but even the lives of the [02:35] people all the way down to the most [02:37] minute details where they work, who [02:40] they're supposed to be in relationships [02:41] with, even how they live or where they [02:43] live. In some cases, even how many [02:45] children or if they even have children, [02:47] like in the cult that I came out of. Uh [02:50] this is a [02:52] problem. It's a big problem in cults. [02:55] It's a problem in cult-like churches. [02:57] and growing up in a cult like I did, [03:00] seeing the damage from this and buying [03:03] into a lot of these N teachers who one [03:06] of them particularly, Mike Bickl was one [03:08] that I had my eye on. I was watching [03:11] what they were doing over at in Kansas [03:13] City and I was trying to emulate some of [03:15] those things at our church when I was a [03:16] worship [03:17] leader. But once I started to learn what [03:19] was actually going on with some of this [03:21] u taking teachings to scripture is what [03:24] woke me up. And now as a pastor, I deal [03:26] with people that come out of these [03:27] sometimes and it's there's so much [03:29] healing that needs to take place. [03:31] So having experienced some of this, [03:34] having even bought some of this and now [03:37] on the other side looking at scripture [03:38] and saying not so fast, hopefully I will [03:42] have a few things to say that can help [03:44] you if you find yourself in this [03:45] situation. This is a real problem [03:47] though. when the idea of honor gets [03:50] warped in [03:52] um it leads to a lot of these big public [03:55] failings that we've been seeing. Mike [03:56] Bickle that I mentioned, Shawn BS is [03:59] another, Bob Jones from way back, Ernest [04:01] Angley from the cult that I was in. And [04:04] it's not only high-profile ministries, [04:06] there are churches all over the place [04:08] that end up like this. Small little [04:09] kingdoms set up all over the place. And [04:12] it's always been a problem. It's been a [04:14] problem even since Bible times. people [04:16] taking way too much authority, more than [04:18] God has allowed. Jesus warned about [04:21] false anointed ones. You see that in [04:24] Matthew 24. You see it in Luke 21, Mark [04:27] 13. Paul had to deal with false apostles [04:30] grabbing authority and trying to lead [04:32] people around to areas they weren't [04:34] supposed to be going. In fact, the whole [04:36] book almost of 2 Corinthians is devoted [04:38] to just that thing. [04:41] And what they're what we're fighting [04:42] against is people who set themselves up [04:45] over others in order to grab power and [04:47] prestige and respect to build their big [04:50] ministries. And so in modern times, you [04:52] see this a lot in the New Apostolic [04:54] Reformation, honor culture. It's built [04:56] into their DNA. And like everything else [04:59] in the NR, it's presented like it's [05:01] fresh revelation or recovered teaching [05:04] that God's just bringing back to the [05:07] church because we're going into a new [05:08] era or a new move. [05:10] And just like all the other weird [05:13] teachings in that [05:14] movement, honor culture, when you boil [05:17] it down, it's just error from the past [05:20] that's been repackaged, tweaked a little [05:22] bit, maybe making it a little bit more [05:25] pal palatable, and then it evolves into [05:28] what they're calling new revelation [05:29] again today. The Bible doesn't teach [05:32] about honoring leaders in the way that [05:34] some of these [05:35] things, in the way that some of these [05:37] are being presented. Now, it does teach [05:39] about honoring spiritual authority. In [05:41] fact, I have an example here out of 1 [05:43] Timothy 5:17. It says, "The elders who [05:46] rule well are to be considered worthy of [05:48] double honor, especially those who work [05:50] hard at preaching and teaching." Now, [05:53] all that means is to respect them. In [05:55] some cases, they're maybe ministers that [05:59] that's how they make their income. Look, [06:01] if they're good teachers, if they're [06:03] caring for the flock, if they're [06:04] teaching them and equipping them and [06:06] really helping them to grow spiritually, [06:08] by all [06:09] means. But that's not the case in a lot [06:12] of these N type churches. They're not [06:14] really teaching you anything you can [06:15] stand on. It's all about spiritual [06:16] warfare and spiritual giftings and [06:19] manifestations. Nothing you can use. If [06:22] you find yourself living to be 90 years [06:25] old and you're you've lost everything [06:27] and you're living in a nursing home [06:28] somewhere, these aren't the things that [06:31] are going to give you a firm foundation [06:33] of faith. A faithful pastor is going to [06:34] be teaching you so that you can actually [06:36] grow. Uh those people are worthy of [06:39] double honor. [06:41] What you won't [06:43] find is any kind of teaching in [06:46] scripture about not being able to make a [06:48] decision until you get advice from the [06:50] pastor or the apostle or the prophet or [06:53] not being able [06:55] to just really make any kind of basic [06:59] decision about your life without the [07:00] input of your spiritual authority that [07:02] you have to go to them to ask what they [07:04] think about everything. Now asking [07:06] somebody for wisdom is one thing but in [07:10] honor culture if you do the opposite of [07:12] what your spiritual authority is telling [07:14] you to do a lot of times there's [07:16] punishment involved and things like [07:18] that. So we need to understand this and [07:21] we first to even look when you look at [07:24] the honor culture now and it's tempting [07:26] because it's twist scripture to think [07:27] this is just always the way Christians [07:29] have believed but it's not. In fact, if [07:31] you trace this back, which is one of the [07:34] biggest things that really helped me on [07:35] my journey to just common sense [07:38] Christianity, critical [07:40] thinking, what is being taught to me? [07:44] Does this line up with scripture? Okay. [07:46] A lot of it revolved around looking at [07:47] church history and seeing if I could [07:49] find some of the things that I was being [07:51] taught, that I was reading about, that I [07:53] was hearing in videos or on the radio. [07:57] Have Christians always taught this? It's [08:00] pretty easy to find in the case of honor [08:02] culture. It if you start to trace it [08:05] back, you find that in the [08:07] 70s this movement began and surprise of [08:12] all surprises, it started in the [08:14] charismatic movement. Shocker, I know, [08:17] but it morphed into offshoots. It began [08:19] as what was called the shephering [08:21] movement. [08:23] And there was a disciplehip movement [08:25] that kind of shot off of it. Heavy [08:27] shephering is what it evolved to. And [08:29] that's where people started to wake up [08:31] and push hard against the movement [08:34] because it again it made people rely way [08:36] too much on their spiritual leaders for [08:39] the just daily life [08:41] choices. But the shephering movement and [08:43] its offshoots, they were all about [08:45] submission to authority. So at first [08:47] blush, many Christians hear that, you [08:49] don't think anything of it because [08:50] that's what we do. We're commanded to [08:53] government authorities. There are times [08:55] there's unjust laws that yeah, we have [08:57] to push back. We have to stand against [08:58] those. But by and large, the Bible tells [09:01] us to honor authority and to respect [09:03] them. That God places authority over us. [09:06] That's what the Bible teaches. We submit [09:08] to Christ [09:09] daily. So, there's a whole lot of [09:12] submission that goes on in the Christian [09:14] life. But this movement was really in [09:16] trouble from the start because some of [09:18] its assumptions that it made, some of [09:20] the things it was asserting weren't [09:22] entirely on point scripturally. So, you [09:25] had [09:26] five lo global leaders and I think I've [09:29] got a picture of them here. [09:33] Yeah. So, these five [09:35] guys and they were supposed to apply [09:41] like accountability to each other. They [09:44] called it covenant relationships. So [09:46] here you got Charles Simpson, Bob [09:48] Mumford, Derek Prince, Don Basham, Ern [09:52] Baxter, and they were all based out of [09:54] Fort [09:56] Lauderdale. Now, some of those names are [09:58] problematic. [10:01] some of those names they [10:05] uh end up if you trace them down a [10:08] little little ways further you see a lot [10:10] of especially like Derek Prince he's [10:12] like the godfather of what we now think [10:14] is spiritual warfare doctrine or [10:17] theology most of the a lot of the [10:19] practices that are very common in the N [10:21] today you can trace those back to Derek [10:23] Prince they a lot of them originated [10:24] with him some of the lingo that goes [10:27] with [10:27] that but anyway so you have These guys, [10:30] they were supposed to be discipling [10:32] people and it it was kind of like [10:34] a their motives might have been actually [10:37] good. I don't know. But they were trying [10:39] to have everybody have a close [10:41] relationship with each other. And so the [10:43] the founders of this that those five [10:44] guys, they saw a lot of spiritual [10:46] immaturity in the church and they wanted [10:48] to fight that trend. At least that's the [10:50] official story. And those aren't bad [10:52] things because there is a lot of [10:53] spiritual immaturity in the church. But [10:56] it didn't take long until bad things [10:57] started to happen because of what they'd [10:59] set up. Okay? It was based off the [11:02] premise that men like William Brham, who [11:07] is not God's general. He's one of [11:08] Satan's generals. He had a lot of errant [11:10] teaching and he's very influential in [11:13] the NR today. A lot of what they teach, [11:16] William Brham made popular. And William [11:18] Brandham had this idea that people in [11:20] churches should just have unquestioning [11:22] submission to their pastors. And in his [11:25] case, he even toward the end of his [11:27] life, a little splinter group of his [11:31] church, the message believed that he was [11:34] deity, believed that he was God in [11:36] flesh, he was reincarnated [11:40] Elijah. Definitely a a problem. William [11:43] Brandham, but he had this idea. And so [11:46] some of these guys that I just named in [11:48] the Fort Lauderdale, they ran with him [11:50] and they were with him during the latter [11:52] reign. and he was dead by the time this [11:55] movement started. But these guys kind of [11:58] carried his ideas [11:59] forward that pastors should have [12:02] absolute authority over the [12:04] congregation. So even with William [12:07] Brandham, there were times where people [12:09] couldn't do anything without the [12:10] pastor's okay. And if you're just [12:11] hearing something like this for the very [12:13] first time, it might sound obvious to [12:15] you that this is wrong. Like how stupid [12:18] could these people be? Well, when you [12:20] grow up in it like I did and like many [12:23] do, if that's all you've ever known, you [12:26] don't realize how off it is. And because [12:28] they're not being trained really to read [12:29] the Bible, I knew a lot of memory [12:30] verses, but I didn't know in context [12:33] what any of it meant. And a lot of [12:35] people in these movements are that way. [12:36] The N's like that. Many of them can [12:38] quote Bible verses all day long. But [12:41] they're saying that they can walk [12:43] through walls and that portals are [12:45] opening with angels coming in and out. [12:47] So obviously there's a disconnect [12:51] somewhere, but there's a lot [12:53] that goes in to a cult and cultlike [12:59] church structures and teachings that [13:02] from the outside looking in might seem [13:05] obvious and stupid for anybody to fall [13:07] for, but when you're in these movements, [13:09] the inner workings, there's so many [13:10] things that are controlling you, it's [13:11] very hard to see it. And so this was [13:13] called the shephering movement in the [13:15] 70s. And in the shephering movement, [13:17] you'll find what I think for the first [13:19] time in church history, at least [13:21] widespread was [13:24] u where failure to submit to your pastor [13:28] wasn't just called rebellion. It wasn't [13:30] just called sin. It wasn't just called [13:32] being fleshly or worldly. They were [13:35] considering it [13:36] witchcraft. And that's based off of a [13:38] partial verse out of context. [13:41] But you'll find that a lot in the NR and [13:43] the prophetic movement and false [13:44] teachers in general. It comes out of 1st [13:47] Samuel 15:23. I'm going to read it. For [13:51] rebellion is as the sin of divination, [13:54] which would be witchcraft. And [13:56] presumption or and presumption is as [13:59] iniquity and [14:01] idolatry. So that's the first half of [14:03] the verse. That's what they take and [14:05] apply and say, look, rebellion is the [14:08] sin of divination. So that means if you [14:10] rebel against your [14:11] pastors, you're in witchcraft. Okay? But [14:15] if you read the rest of the verse, it [14:17] says because you've rejected the word of [14:20] the Lord, he has also rejected you from [14:21] being king. Wait a minute. Context helps [14:25] you to see that this isn't just a [14:26] blanket statement to the body of Christ. [14:28] This is an actual prophecy from a [14:30] prophet in the scripture to a king [14:34] because he had rebelled against what God [14:36] had said. [14:37] So the context of this verse has to do [14:39] with rebellion against with King [14:42] Saul. It's not a prophecy spoken to all [14:44] the congregation and all God's people [14:46] for all time. The idea then is that [14:50] rebellion is considered witchcraft. So [14:52] if you don't submit to your leader, if [14:53] you rebel against his authority, that's [14:56] as bad as witchcraft, which the Bible [14:58] obviously condemns. [15:01] So you couple that kind of teaching as a [15:03] foundation with this idea that everybody [15:06] needs to have a what they would call a [15:08] quote unquote spiritual covering. Okay? [15:11] And without one, God won't bless you. If [15:13] you're under that covering, he'll you'll [15:15] prosper. God will bless you. But if you [15:18] rebel and you come outside of that [15:21] spiritual covering, whether it's the [15:22] covering that a pastor provides or an [15:25] apostle or a prophet, you'll actually be [15:29] falling under God's curse, demonic [15:31] attack, oppression, maybe even um [15:36] possession. So that's kind of what [15:39] started up here in the 70s with the [15:40] shephering movement. Now, once people [15:42] started coming out with these horror [15:44] stories about being under control of [15:46] abusive leaders, it started to even get [15:48] reported in the newspapers and things [15:50] like [15:51] that. Plus, some of the leaders that [15:53] were in that picture I showed you were [15:55] getting caught up in different kinds of [15:56] scandals. The movement fell apart. Most [15:59] of the original five leaders eventually [16:01] disavowed the movement. They at least [16:03] acknowledged to their credit that it was [16:06] harmful. It was damaging. I don't know [16:09] um how strongly all of them did. I know [16:12] one of them, Bob Mumford, he was pretty [16:14] apologetic about it and he was pretty [16:16] vocal about the errors of the movement [16:18] and he was one of the founders of it. [16:20] But like a whole lot of messed up [16:22] movements, when people find out that [16:24] they [16:25] work, they just can't [16:28] resist adapting those to their own [16:31] church. It's irresistible for false [16:34] teachers, for wolves among the flock to [16:36] see something that works and not try to [16:38] use it to their advantage. So they tweak [16:40] a few things, repackage it, and then [16:42] another movement is born. And that's how [16:44] this happens. And most of what the N [16:46] teaches, I can't stress this enough, [16:48] most of what they teach is repackaged [16:50] out of the latter reign, which was the [16:52] first time in Christian history that [16:53] many of these teachings ever really got [16:55] mainstream at [16:56] all. They sound biblical. They use [16:59] pieces of the Bible so it fools most [17:02] Christians because no offense and [17:04] somebody's always going to get offended [17:05] when you do. Most Christians in our [17:07] country are spiritually immature, [17:08] completely biblically illiterate and [17:10] they fall for [17:11] anything. Guys aren't using, especially [17:14] in the hyper charismatic movement, the [17:16] prophetic, the NR, they're so used to [17:18] shutting their brains off and just [17:21] accepting anything they're taught, they [17:23] fall into this kind of stuff rather [17:25] easily. [17:27] So, Shephering Movement Goes Away. And [17:30] then I've got a couple pictures of a [17:32] couple of other books. And I have both [17:33] of [17:34] these. Let me [17:36] see if I can bring them [17:38] up. Called Spiritual Authority by [17:41] Watchman. I found that one at a thrift [17:43] store. And another book from John Bevere [17:46] called Undercover. Both of these pretty [17:48] influential. Both of them carry a lot of [17:50] the same ideas from the shephering [17:52] movement. [17:54] And the John Bevere's book in [17:59] particular was one [18:03] that took a lot of these shephering [18:05] movement ideas and [18:08] really expanded on it. Really made it [18:11] mainstream. John Bevere, if you've ever [18:13] heard of him, he's very popular [18:15] Christian [18:16] author. He's problematic and I didn't [18:19] realize that back in the [18:21] day. I've taught some of his stuff. I've [18:24] read a few of his [18:25] books and I've said this before, but I [18:29] used to believe everything. Everything I [18:31] read, everything I heard and I didn't [18:33] know enough scripture to discern error [18:35] from truth. As much as I hate to say it, [18:38] I fell into this one, [18:40] too. And not as a pastor, but I was a [18:44] worship leader at the time. And uh I [18:47] think when I first read it, I don't even [18:48] know if I was a worship leader yet. I [18:49] was pretty much newly saved. and [18:54] um just anything I could get my hands [18:56] on, I wanted I wanted to please God so [18:58] bad. So, I read this book. We read it at [19:00] our church and basically it's just a new [19:04] version of the shephering movement. It's [19:05] talking about spiritual covering and how [19:07] much we need to be under it. It mentions [19:09] that rebellion is witchcraft. It's all [19:12] there. Now, in a church like ours, when [19:14] I read it, and I had others read it, I [19:18] used to be in charge of ministries here. [19:20] like I kind of just oversaw and made [19:21] sure that they were had what they needed [19:23] and all that. And a lot of times for [19:24] people that were going to be potentially [19:27] ministering in our church, I would give [19:29] them that book, have them read it and [19:32] just try to gauge their response if they [19:35] Now, we didn't have abusive leadership [19:37] here. In the circles that I've been in [19:40] most of my Christian life, we're not [19:42] used to questioning things very much. We [19:45] hear from another church that, hey, this [19:46] is a great book. It really helped our [19:48] congregation. And so we just go, "Oh, [19:50] sweet." And then we just read it. And if [19:52] we don't understand some things or if we [19:54] question things, it's easy to just [19:56] assume that they know the Bible better [19:57] than we do. Now, at our church, when we [20:01] were reading it, we didn't have a pastor [20:03] who you were going to go up to and say, [20:05] "Should I buy this car? Should I date [20:08] this person?" And even if he did, he [20:10] probably would have said, "Use your [20:11] brain. I don't know. What are you asking [20:12] me for?" So, in a lot of churches, this [20:15] is going to this kind of teaching is [20:17] going to go through the congregation. [20:18] It's not going to cause any harm. It's [20:20] not going to really even change much of [20:21] what they already [20:23] do, but not for everybody. And with a [20:27] guy like John Bevere, who's very [20:29] influential, what he says carries a lot [20:31] of weight to a lot of [20:33] people. It was just seen when I was [20:35] reading it as like a biblical principle [20:37] that would help us live right, help us [20:38] be blessed. And again, I used to have [20:41] people read it and I would gauge their [20:42] responses. If they threw a fit, then I [20:44] figured they'd probably be troubled down [20:46] the road because they don't like hearing [20:47] the word no. [20:49] And if they read it and said, "Okay, [20:52] yeah, yeah, I learned a little bit out [20:54] of that." I would think, "Okay, well, [20:56] maybe they'll be easy to work with down [20:57] the road." It wasn't, "How can I control [21:00] these people?" It was just, "Let's gauge [21:02] the response." But in [21:06] retrospect, I should have thrown a fit [21:08] about it. [21:10] I should have listened to some of the [21:12] issues because from time to time people [21:13] would raise [21:14] issues. Like wait a [21:16] minute, this sounds awful [21:19] like borderline controlling from the [21:22] perspective they were looking at it [21:24] from. Now I should have listened to [21:26] those people with an open Bible and not [21:28] just discounted what they were saying [21:30] because some of the people in my defense [21:32] that would say things like, "Well, I [21:33] don't know about this or I don't like [21:34] this." They were already kind of like [21:36] that in a lot of their life anyway. If [21:37] they ever heard no, they would [21:39] just you'd regret [21:42] it. But nobody ever used the Bible to [21:46] cite their concerns when they came to [21:48] me. They just didn't like being told no. [21:50] They wanted to start their new ministry. [21:51] They wanted funding or [21:54] whatever. But I just recently read the [21:56] book again and it's definitely all [21:59] there. That's the shephering movement. [22:01] Now, why do I bring all this up? What [22:03] does this have to do with honor culture? [22:04] It is honor culture. It's the beginnings [22:06] of it. I want you to realize this isn't [22:09] what's been taught in the Bible. This [22:10] started in the 70s. So, we're talking [22:11] about a relatively new idea in the [22:14] Christian church. Now, cults, like I [22:15] said, false teachers, called like [22:18] churches, they've been using these [22:19] tactics all the way since the time of [22:21] Christ, the time of the [22:23] apostles, but specifically in Christian [22:26] teaching, the shephering movement coming [22:28] up and just [22:30] appearing 50 years ago should raise a [22:33] red flag for many of us. Okay, now on a [22:37] side note here and I have a little clip [22:39] from a video. John Bevere isn't [22:41] critiqued very often. He comes off as [22:44] kind of vanilla. Typical pop [22:46] Christianity. He's likable. He's easy to [22:48] listen to. He's a good speaker. He's a [22:50] good writer. But his teachings are off [22:52] base in a lot of places. And I've been [22:53] noticing this more and more over the [22:56] last few years. Now, I don't know his [22:57] heart. I don't know if he's sincere or [22:59] not. He comes off sincere. I don't know. [23:02] While I don't know motives, I do know [23:04] history. [23:05] And John Bevere started with none other [23:07] than Benny Hinn. So some of the books as [23:10] as I was reading back through Undercover [23:11] and he's talking about being a youth [23:13] pastor in this big huge church where it [23:16] was internationally [23:18] known a guy that comes out of a church [23:20] that's run by Benny Hinn is already [23:21] going to be off base on a few things and [23:24] I don't know that a lot of people [23:25] realize that and I didn't until recently [23:29] but it explains a lot. John Bevere is [23:32] also at a lot of conferences with NR [23:34] leaders. Bill Johnson, he's he's spoken [23:36] at Bethl in Reading. So, he partners [23:40] with a lot of these people. He's been [23:41] with Robert Morris who's been exposed as [23:44] a pedophile. And Benny Hinn of course uh [23:48] in fact I think Benny Hinn wrote the [23:50] forward to one of John Bevere's best [23:54] known books called The Bait of Satan, at [23:56] least in the first printing. I think [23:57] it's since been removed and John Bevere [23:59] has written his own. But Bevere has a [24:02] few teachings that are problematic and [24:03] he has a lot of associations that are [24:05] too. He's been referred to as some in [24:08] some cases as an apostle and I'm not [24:10] sure that he's if he's cool with that or [24:11] not. I haven't heard anything about him [24:14] uh denying that or anything like that. [24:18] And one of the most problematic things [24:20] John Bevere does in my view is a lot of [24:23] what's what we would call humble [24:24] bragging. [24:26] So, in anything I've ever read, anything [24:28] I've ever watched, anytime I've ever [24:30] heard him at all, he talks about all [24:33] this special revelation that he gets [24:35] from God. And just the other day, I was [24:38] mowing my grass and I had this I've been [24:41] working on this [24:42] episode. You can't find a whole lot on [24:44] John Bevere, but as God's providence [24:47] would have it, just here in the last few [24:49] days, I happened across a video. It's [24:52] from a YouTube channel that was called [24:55] um Long for Truth did this work. So I [24:58] don't want to take credit for [24:59] it, but he put together a little [25:02] compilation and I'm going to show you [25:03] this. God spoke to me in 1988. I was a [25:07] youth pastor. Yeah. And he said, "Son, [25:09] what is [25:10] coming, the outpouring of my spirit that [25:13] is coming will be much greater than the [25:16] book of Acts." He actually said this to [25:18] me. He said it'll be seven times greater [25:21] than the book of Acts. So the Lord All [25:23] right, I'm going to stop just for a [25:24] minute. So this is what I'm getting to. [25:27] John the Ver loves to talk about these [25:29] conversations that he has with God. Now [25:31] the reason this is problematic is [25:34] because like in that case he said God [25:36] told him there was going to be a move of [25:38] God greater than the book of Acts. [25:42] Some of the books he says that God told [25:44] him to write and if he didn't write [25:46] them, then he'd give it to somebody [25:48] else. This is revelation straight from [25:50] God. The N specializes in extra [25:54] revelation, special revelation. What you [25:56] can't find in scripture, but they get it [25:58] downloaded, which is a little buzzword [26:00] you need to pay attention to. That's not [26:02] how we spiritually grow. That's not how [26:04] the Bible ever teaches us to grow in our [26:06] knowledge, to grow in our sanctification [26:08] ever. that is just instant and download. [26:11] No, we're supposed to learn. We're [26:12] supposed to study to show ourselves [26:14] approved. So, all of this already is [26:16] problematic. But listen to how many of [26:18] these stories he's talking about. And [26:19] this is just a small handful. You'll [26:21] anything you find John Bevere talking [26:23] in, you'll get one of these stories. At [26:24] least one spoke to me. He said, "Son, [26:26] that's what you need to do. Exercise." [26:29] God. God just spoke to me. But then I [26:31] had the stupidest stupidest thought. I [26:34] said, "God, couldn't it have been a [26:37] little more profound?" And God spoke to [26:39] me and he said, "Go play touch [26:40] football." I said, "God, nobody should [26:43] ever hear that [26:44] message ever. I'm throwing it away, son. [26:49] Don't throw it away." And I woke up this [26:51] morning. I was like, "Gosh, I'd love to [26:52] preach on that. I'd love to pre and the [26:53] Holy Spirit was like, [26:54] "No, you're here at this conference [26:57] because of what I've given you." Like, [27:00] and that's the new book. And the Holy [27:02] Spirit whispered to me, he said, "I'm [27:03] coming one more time tonight." And the [27:05] only way I know how to describe this, [27:07] and I could never describe this, but I'm [27:09] going to try, is that you're at the end [27:11] of the runway at DFW, and a [27:13] 737 takes off right in front of you. [27:16] That kind of a violent wind came blowing [27:20] into that auditorium next. No, I'm going [27:23] to stop it again because you get the N [27:25] has a lot of those kind of [27:27] claims. I mean, a lot. It's just so [27:29] frequent people don't even they they're [27:32] shocked by it but they forgot about it [27:34] two seconds later because if if you [27:36] think critically at all [27:39] uh 737 that amount of wind going through [27:42] a building I mean you're talking about [27:44] like chairs being lifted up off the [27:46] ground and I don't believe that. I just [27:49] don't I've heard so many stories like [27:50] this all my life that I don't buy it. [27:53] I've never seen one shred of evidence [27:55] for any of these kind of claims. Let's [27:57] go on. Morning. I'm in prayer. in my [27:58] Malaysian hotel and the Holy Spirit just [28:00] speaks to me and said read Psalm 19 you [28:02] know um when God spoke to me and told me [28:05] to write this book and God says write [28:08] and I'm like what you got the wrong boy [28:10] John Bevere if you don't write what God [28:11] is giving you to write he will give that [28:14] ability to somebody else and one day [28:16] you'll stand in judgment for it Holy [28:19] Spirit finally spoke to me and said I'm [28:21] through with [28:24] you son I'm through with [28:26] you Okay. So, you hear a lot of that's [28:29] just a sample and and you could probably [28:31] have a compilation or hours with stuff [28:36] like that with John Bevere. So, that's [28:38] what makes him problematic. And I in the [28:40] circles that I'm from when you just get [28:41] a book, you really don't we you don't [28:44] consider checking these people out as [28:46] Christians in the day we're living in [28:48] right now. any any author you get, any [28:50] video you get said, anybody who [28:52] recommends any teacher, you need to [28:54] check into what what you're reading and [28:57] consuming, look at who they associate [28:59] with, look where they [29:01] speak. Just you just type in Google and [29:04] say anybody's name and then write false [29:06] teacher after it and see if anything's [29:08] ever come up because a lot of these guys [29:10] are in [29:12] weird weird kind of teaching and um it's [29:16] best to just avoid that stuff. And I [29:18] know John Bevere is popular and if it [29:20] burst your bubble to hear that, I'm [29:21] sorry, but when you look at all that [29:23] that he just [29:24] said, and you can say those are out of [29:27] context all you want. He's bringing up [29:30] the fact that God's telling him to write [29:31] these books. If God's telling him to [29:32] write some of these books and they're [29:34] divinely inspired and [29:36] downloaded, I think you can make a case [29:38] that Christians have to read that then [29:41] because this is [29:43] authoritative word straight from God. [29:46] That's new revelation for the church. [29:47] That is so important for the church. And [29:52] that's scary stuff. But here's the [29:54] thing. Honor culture, [29:57] uh, it causes a lot of damage to people, [30:01] okay? Because what John Ve has done, [30:03] that book undercover, it's been [30:04] reprinted multiple times. It's carried [30:06] through. There's another book as well by [30:08] a guy named Danny Silk with a forward by [30:11] Bill Johnson. He was out of Bethl and [30:15] that one is called culture of honor. It [30:18] says a lot of the same things that [30:19] undercover does [30:22] and bever though has a huge following. [30:25] So it's causing a lot of damage to [30:26] people because as we read this we think [30:28] we need this spiritual covering. So our [30:29] leader has that I need to be under him. [30:31] That means I have to be aligned with him [30:33] or the prophet or the apostle and I'm [30:37] afraid to go outside of it. People think [30:39] they're sinning against God to make [30:40] decisions about their life in extreme [30:44] cases. Here's the thing. Honor culture [30:46] itself. If you hear culture of honor, [30:48] honor, it's talked about a lot in your [30:50] church, that should be a red flag. [30:52] Spiritual covering. If you hear that, [30:55] know the context of what's being said. [30:57] If you hear things about rebellion is [30:59] witchcraft, all of those are alarm [31:01] bells. And the N makes full use of this. [31:04] apostolic covering, alignment, spiritual [31:07] fathering, spiritual [31:09] mothering. If your church calls the [31:11] pastor and his wife mama and papa, [31:13] there's a real good chance you're in [31:15] honor culture. And it's not [31:17] scriptural. Jesus warned us about this. [31:20] In fact, they actually forbid us from [31:23] using inflated titles for [31:27] people, false prestige given to people [31:30] or inordinate reliance placed upon men [31:34] that end up acting like they're [31:36] mediators between you and God, between [31:38] you and Christ. They're mediators for [31:40] the blessing, for the anointing. They're [31:44] mediators. They're they're basically [31:46] brokers for God's favor and God's [31:48] blessing. And [31:50] that's really dangerous because the [31:53] lives of ordinary believers are being [31:55] impacted. Up and cominging young young [31:57] leaders who are growing up in this [31:59] learning that this is how you operate in [32:00] a church. It's a cycle that has is right [32:04] now as we speak [32:07] really showing itself to be bad news [32:10] because you keep seeing people popping [32:13] up in the news that have abused others [32:15] in their church and a lot of it comes [32:16] back to this honor culture. They've held [32:18] him up so high that they get put in [32:20] positions with pastors and all kinds of [32:23] spiritual leaders that they shouldn't [32:25] shouldn't have been in, but they didn't [32:27] think were wrong because obviously my [32:30] leader I I need to be under his his [32:32] spiritual authority and spiritual [32:35] covering. Jesus said in Matthew 23 verse [32:38] 8-10, let me read this. But [32:41] you don't be called rabbi, for one is [32:44] your teacher, the Christ, and you're all [32:47] brothers. Don't call anyone on earth [32:49] your father. For one is your father, he [32:52] who is in heaven. And don't be called [32:54] teachers, for one is your teacher, the [32:56] Christ. So the idea of a spiritual [32:58] father, spiritual mothers, we need to be [33:01] very careful, okay? It doesn't mean you [33:03] can't have people that you revere that [33:05] are mentors to you. Obviously, yes. in [33:08] in a disciplehip relationship, you feel [33:10] like they're your kids. You're so [33:11] protective and you want to see them [33:12] succeed. That's not a bad thing. That's [33:14] a scriptural thing. But what Jesus is [33:17] warning about is not saying you can't [33:20] ever have teachers. We need teachers. In [33:21] fact, in Ephesians, it says that [33:23] teachers are a gift from Christ to the [33:26] church. But what Jesus is warning about [33:28] is just inflating people and elevating [33:30] people to the point where they have way [33:32] too much power and say so in your [33:33] everyday life. Because if you look at [33:35] the idea of a spiritual father, you'll [33:37] find it in scripture. And this is what [33:38] they usually point to. Paul and [33:40] Timothy. [33:42] Now, Paul and Timothy's relationship, [33:45] Paul looked at Timothy as a son in the [33:47] faith, spiritual son. He looked at [33:49] himself as a spiritual father. But [33:50] that's not meant to kick off a doctrine [33:52] for the church that says each one of us [33:54] need to have one of those. [33:58] Maybe if more people in our country [33:59] actually made disciples, they would be [34:02] able to differentiate what Paul's saying [34:04] from this doctrine. Because again, when [34:07] you're helping somebody from the very [34:09] beginning of their first steps in the [34:11] faith and they continue to walk, you [34:14] do feel for them in a way that is almost [34:18] like one of your kids. I have three kids [34:20] and a son-in-law and I have a lot of [34:23] young believers in our church and I I [34:27] feel for them in much the same way that [34:29] I do my kids. But just like my own [34:31] children who my oldest is an adult, my [34:36] oldest son is an adult now, too. There [34:39] are certain things that are off limits [34:40] for me to [34:41] be, you know, exerting my influence in. [34:44] especially my oldest daughter, she has a [34:47] husband, so I can't overstep that [34:49] authority even as a as a biological dad. [34:53] So when pastors do that, especially with [34:55] people that aren't even related to them [34:56] or anything like that, it really gets [34:57] out of whack quickly. So the idea of [35:02] spiritual fathers as we see it in the N, [35:04] it can lead to a lot of hurt. And it [35:06] does. It does because people can't only [35:09] they not only can they not make [35:12] decisions. They feel like they can't [35:14] question their leaders. That's [35:16] dangerous. That's bad. You look at some [35:18] of the scandals that have recently [35:20] rocked the Christian church and they [35:22] almost all revolve around N leaders. Let [35:27] me show you. I got a a video [35:30] from just a year or two ago. [35:35] Tonight, KMBBC9 News investigates deeper [35:37] questions about a Kansas City ministry [35:39] and its founder who is now on leave. [35:41] Three former leaders of Kansas City's [35:42] International House of Prayer came [35:44] forward last month. They alleged sexual [35:46] misconduct by founder Mike Bickl [35:47] involving several women. One of those [35:49] former leaders is speaking with KMBBC9 [35:51] News investigative reporter Matt Fleiner [35:53] tonight. Matt, Kelly, Chris, these [35:55] leaders published a letter detailing [35:56] what they call clergy sexual abuse by [35:58] Mike Bagel against women. One of the [35:59] leaders said he could not stay silent. [36:02] The reason why I'm doing this is uh an [36:05] incredible woman actually came forward [36:08] to my wife and I the beginning of August [36:12] and told us a story and I can't unhear [36:15] that story. Dwayne Roberts is one of the [36:17] founding leaders at the International [36:19] House of Prayer in South Kansas City. [36:21] He's also a former member of its [36:23] executive leadership team. This has to [36:25] be talked about and uncovered so that [36:29] the right the wrongs can be made right. [36:31] It's It's not right. Roberts is one of [36:34] three former ministry leaders who [36:35] released this public letter last month [36:37] detailing allegations of clergy sexual [36:40] abuse by Mike Bickl against several [36:41] victims. Bickl is not charged with any [36:43] crimes, but he's on leave during an [36:45] investigation by the ministry he founded [36:47] in 1999, including a 247 prayer and [36:51] worship room at a school in Grand View [36:53] called IHOP University. It's wrong what [36:55] has happened and it's wrong how it's [36:57] being handled. Last week, IHOP KC [37:00] released a report detailing one [37:01] partially credible claim of physical [37:03] contacts between Bickl and another woman [37:05] from 26 years ago. But IHOP KC said four [37:08] women have refuted claims they were [37:10] victims. After seeing that report, [37:12] Robert said he wanted to stand firm on [37:14] the allegations he brought forward. [37:19] Okay. So, as you heard on the news [37:22] report there, Mike Bickl was accused and [37:24] and he's not been back in ministry [37:26] since. now he's getting ready to come [37:27] back into ministry again. He's just not [37:29] going to be a [37:30] pastor. And this was one of the guys [37:32] that I was modeling some of my things [37:34] after. They mentioned a 24/7 prayer room [37:37] and we did some 24-hour prayer things [37:40] here as well with music and prayer going [37:42] and prayer and music. all that's fine. [37:45] But the reason I was doing it is cuz I'm [37:47] hearing all these awesome stories out of [37:48] Kansas City and um a lot of churches [37:52] across the country [37:55] were doing the same recently. Michael [37:58] Brown is another one that was under [37:59] investigation. Now, they said at the end [38:01] of that news coverage that there were [38:04] other complaints as well and that they [38:05] were [38:06] withdrawn. That's not a [38:08] surprise to make a claim against the [38:11] pastor like four of these women did. Um [38:14] and and with that story, without getting [38:16] into all the details, Mike Bigle was [38:17] walking around telling these women that [38:20] he had a dream that his wife was going [38:22] to die and it was inevitable and when [38:26] she did die that he was supposed to [38:28] marry this girl or this other girl. And [38:31] this happened several times. Now, some [38:33] of them rescended their their first [38:37] accusation, but usually where there's [38:39] smoke and where there's that much smoke, [38:41] there is fire. And if you have your [38:43] leaders up on pedestals, it's not [38:45] uncommon at all for people to have [38:48] second thoughts and worry and especially [38:51] when you have manipul manipulative [38:54] leaders. They can get you to second [38:56] guess yourself rather easily. [38:59] enough evidence came out with Mike [39:00] Pickle that he should not be trusted as [39:02] a pastor. Michael Brown, very similar [39:05] thing. Now, Mike Bickle's wife wasn't [39:08] going to die, by the way, and she's [39:09] still alive. Michael Brown, another one [39:12] who was influential and pretty key [39:16] figure at the Brownsville revival that [39:18] happened back in the late [39:20] 90s. And he's a real big defender. In [39:25] fact, one of the people he really [39:27] defended like crazy was Mike Bickl. And [39:30] they always do this. When one of them [39:31] gets in trouble, everybody rallies to [39:33] their defense. He's been hit with [39:36] allegations of stuff. And they they did [39:37] a investigation and I don't remember [39:40] what all they came out with. [39:44] um the [39:47] investigation group that head of that [39:50] up. I don't know uh how much stock needs [39:54] to be put in that actually, but that's a [39:56] whole different story. But Michael [39:57] Brown, I have a picture here of another [40:00] one. Speaking of Kansas City, [40:04] that one of the most [40:08] popular Kansas City prophets was a guy [40:11] named Bob [40:13] Jones. And Bob Jones was [40:18] removed back in the late [40:21] 90s after having women come into his [40:24] office, take their clothes off, and be [40:26] naked before the Lord. [40:29] But it [40:31] wasn't hardly any time before he was [40:33] back in the conference circuit and he [40:36] was buddies with Mike Vickle Vickle. [40:37] There was a whole bunch of guys that [40:38] came out of Kansas City called the [40:40] Kansas City [40:41] Prophets. And many people tied up in [40:44] that movement at the beginning have been [40:47] accused of shady things or been right up [40:49] close with other people that were [40:51] accused of shady things. And and I get [40:54] that the enemy wants to discredit the [40:55] church. I hear it. I know. [41:01] But when you get these kind of [41:04] allegations, it takes so much courage [41:06] for victims of abuse to really speak and [41:10] it's like that in any other area like [41:13] out in the world. A girl gets sexually [41:14] abused, it's very hard for her to come [41:17] forward and talk about it. But [41:18] especially when you're talking about the [41:20] Christian world because that's supposed [41:23] to be the safest place and that you [41:25] could think of. And so when it happens [41:27] and it's covered up in churches, it's [41:29] just so embarrassing. It's it's very [41:32] difficult. So I don't, you know, blame [41:35] people even for wanting to pull their [41:36] allegations back because it's just so [41:38] hard. But from a news article in 1991 [41:41] when I was looking for that picture of [41:45] uh the news report from Bob Jones, there [41:48] was a line and I want to quote it [41:50] because it goes right along with my [41:51] topic. [41:53] It said uh quote their dependency on [41:57] Bob's weakness combined to create the [42:00] situation. That was somebody who was [42:02] close to the Bob Jones thing. So he's [42:05] talking about the the women that were [42:06] abused by Bob Jones and he's saying that [42:08] their dependency on [42:10] Bob combined to create this situation. [42:14] He's blaming the victims, okay? But he [42:16] is acknowledging at the same time that [42:18] they held Bob Jones on a [42:20] pedestal. And that's what happens with [42:22] honor culture. You have these people [42:24] that are so close to God. They're so [42:25] anointed. You wouldn't dare question [42:26] them. They just know God so much more [42:28] than you. You want to learn from them. [42:29] You want to be like them. I get it. But [42:32] when you can't question your [42:34] leaders, it goes a whole lot deeper than [42:37] not being able to vocalize concerns. If [42:39] you can't question your leaders, it goes [42:41] a lot further than a little bit of [42:44] potential [42:45] misconduct. You can get people in cases [42:48] that are just they're shocking. beyond [42:50] shocking. When you believe that God's [42:52] angry at people for questioning their [42:54] leaders or God gets angry at us for [42:58] questioning some of the teaching we're [42:59] getting from the from the [43:01] pulpit, well, you're training yourself [43:03] to actually get to the point where [43:04] you're afraid to think critically about [43:07] anything that you're being taught. [43:10] Anything you hear from this person or [43:11] this pulpit or this prophet, [43:15] apostle, you don't dare question it [43:17] because you'll be under God's cursing. [43:20] That's rebellion and that's [43:21] witchcraft. You see how this all works [43:24] together to keep people [43:25] enslaved. And so when people are in [43:28] environments like this, they'll put up [43:30] with all sorts of weird things, even in [43:32] some cases sinful things. They'll turn a [43:34] blind eye to sketchy activity, to [43:36] sketchy leaders. You irrationalize even [43:40] abuse that happens to you. Justify it. [43:42] You deserve that. You were under [43:43] spiritual attack. They wouldn't hurt [43:46] you. You It becomes Stockholm syndrome [43:48] in a way. And it happens a lot. It [43:51] happened in the cult that I grew up in. [43:53] I'm going to play you a little news [43:55] article out of that. What I'm saying [43:57] here is not hearsay. These are things [43:59] that happened. And let me see. I've got [44:03] it here. Joan presiding over a 1999 [44:05] funeral. Televangelist Ernest Angley has [44:08] pastored Grace Cathedral in Kaiga Falls [44:10] for decades. Best known for his faith [44:12] healing services, Angley has maintained [44:13] a loyal following. But after the [44:15] resignation of an associate pastor, [44:17] rumors about Angley, now 93 years old, [44:19] started to swirl within his church, [44:21] according to Akran Beacon Journal [44:23] reporter Bob Dyer. This all began when [44:25] an associate pastor of the church quit [44:27] and he told friends and family that he [44:29] had been inappropriately touched by [44:31] Reverend Angley for seven years and [44:33] couldn't take it anymore. In a special [44:34] reports published by the Beacon Journal, [44:36] Dyer says he was sent a two and a half [44:38] hour recording of a July service in [44:40] which Angley responded to several [44:41] explosive allegations. [44:44] I'm going to pause there for a second. [44:45] Growing up in this church until the late [44:49] 90s when my family left because Ernest [44:51] Angley admitted on tape to a homosexual [44:54] affair and about 350 people left. It's a [44:57] it was a big church probably running 600 [44:59] 700 at that time, maybe somewhere around [45:02] there. Um, but the allegations never [45:05] stopped. And every single time [45:06] allegations came out, the church would [45:08] rally around him, saying it was an [45:10] attack of the devil. Angley would take [45:12] the pulpit and blast people that made [45:15] allegations, say that they were [45:16] demonpossessed, that they had seducing [45:18] spirits, even going as far as to say [45:20] that if you talked to them, some of [45:22] those spirits could come out and attach [45:24] themselves to you. [45:26] This is the level of control that can [45:28] happen when we hold leaders up on such a [45:31] high pedestal. We'll defend things that [45:34] are wrong. And it gets worse. Listen to [45:35] the rest of this. Angely stood up and [45:37] denied being a homosexual. Dyer says the [45:40] recording was the start of a [45:41] two-monthlong journey in which he talked [45:42] with 21 former church members, several [45:44] of whom left the church 25 years ago. [45:47] The most appalling thing I heard from [45:48] former members was that Reverend Angley [45:51] has so much sway over his members that [45:53] he can talk them into getting [45:55] vasectomies and abortions. He uh doesn't [45:58] believe people should bring children [46:00] into the [46:01] world. Fox 8 tried to get an interview [46:03] with Reverend Angley about the Beacon [46:05] Journal report and was told Reverend [46:07] Angley is not interested in responding [46:09] to the article. It is a bunch of lies. [46:11] It has not hindered us. We've been [46:12] blessed in each service with crowds. [46:15] I'm pausing there for a second. That's [46:17] one of the ways that we justify abusive [46:19] leadership. And at Grace Cathedral, it [46:22] was well, no, the numbers are here. We [46:24] have a lot of people and we have [46:25] miracles and we have signs and wonders. [46:28] And many people still do that today. [46:30] Ernest Angley died a few years ago, but [46:32] the the teaching is still going on. The [46:36] church at this point is a shell of [46:37] itself after that report they had where [46:40] um he was accused by an associate [46:42] minister of years of sexual [46:46] abuse. Um they play it off like, well, [46:49] it's just people trying to get money out [46:51] of us and all that. No, no. This is a [46:53] common tactic. And when you're in one of [46:55] these movements, you think that you're [46:56] the only one. And so if you're watching [46:58] and you're a part of one of these [46:59] things, you need to know that you're [47:01] not. This [47:03] happens probably as much as it does [47:06] because we don't talk about it, because [47:08] we don't bring these out. And I know [47:10] it's hard to be brave to step up, but [47:12] there are people that you can trust. And [47:14] I would encourage you to do so if you're [47:15] in a situation like this. But this is [47:17] all common tactics. Angel is not doing [47:19] anything that IHOP doesn't al didn't [47:22] also do or Michael Brown or Bob Jones. [47:25] They all do the same stuff. And this is [47:26] these are the things where they started [47:28] to connect dots for me. I started to see [47:30] behavior like this in church history [47:33] especially in the since the 1900s the [47:37] early Pentecostals the some of the [47:39] charismatic there there were leaders in [47:41] some of these groups that once you start [47:44] to look you're like whoa and you see so [47:46] many similarities between what happened [47:48] at the church that I went what's [47:50] happening now today and back then that [47:53] was enough for me to say I need to start [47:55] evaluating some of these teachings and [47:57] um I hope it is for you too Let's listen [48:00] to the rest of this. Says he did get a [48:02] 90-minute interview with Angley before [48:04] publishing his stories. Most of what I [48:06] asked him about, he denied, although he [48:08] did admit to examining men before and [48:10] after vasctomy. I said, "You're not a [48:11] medical doctor. Why are you doing this?" [48:13] He said, "Well, I got to check for the [48:14] swelling." And he said, "Uh, in most [48:17] cases, he can pray and the swelling goes [48:19] away and if that doesn't work, he sends [48:21] them to a doctor." Publishing the story, [48:22] Dyer says he's heard from angry [48:24] supporters of Angley and from others [48:26] also willing to speak. As I expected, [48:28] I've heard from some folks who are very [48:30] upset uh quoting Bible verses and [48:33] telling me I'm going to be in big [48:35] trouble long term. But I I've been [48:37] amazed that the percentage of support [48:40] has been about 98%. I mean, most of the [48:43] people who contact me say, [48:44] "Congratulations. Uh this needed to be [48:47] told." [48:48] In Akran, Dave Nethers, Fox 8 News. [48:53] Okay. And there you go. from the right [48:57] from the mouth of the reporter that did [48:58] the Akan Beacon Journal [49:00] piece. That [49:02] was a really big deal in our in our city [49:05] when it came [49:07] out. You've got people reaching out to [49:10] him saying, "No, this you're being used [49:13] by the devil and throwing Bible verses. [49:15] You see the same things today." It's all [49:17] the same. And this is the way the enemy [49:18] works. You know, the situations may [49:20] change, technology changes over time, [49:22] but the hearts of men are still the [49:24] same. the attacks of the enemy, the this [49:26] the tactics he uses are still the same. [49:29] And we have a God who never changes. So [49:32] all of these problems span time. And [49:34] because we're ignorant of church [49:35] history, we fail to see it. And until [49:38] we're hurt in a movement, we don't [49:42] know. But he was talking about Ernest [49:44] Angley checking guys, adult grown men, [49:48] married men, before and after [49:50] vasectomies. Now, think of the amount of [49:53] abuse that's going on here. Because I [49:54] think one thing that gets overlooked [49:56] when you talk about spiritual abuse or [49:58] worse, like at Ernest Angley's case, [50:02] you've [50:03] got you've got people that I just messed [50:07] something up on my computer. I don't [50:08] know what I touched. I'm not real good [50:09] with all these computers. Oh, where did [50:12] I [50:13] go [50:16] to? Sorry about this. I hate to have [50:18] dead time in this, but when you look [50:22] at some of the some of the damage done [50:24] and you start to think about just how [50:27] far this actually goes, you know, it's [50:29] easy to think about, okay, well, [50:31] somebody was hurt, somebody was abused, [50:32] but in in the case of Angley, he was [50:34] checking guys [50:36] for he didn't want us to have he didn't [50:38] want people to have kids. Now, luckily, [50:40] I was in a children's church my whole [50:42] time there. When I got to be a teenager, [50:44] I was kind of floating in and out a [50:46] little bit. By the time my family left, [50:48] they all left together, which spared me [50:51] from a lot of the pain that people go [50:53] through when they leave dysfunctional [50:55] churches cuz their family gets upset [50:56] with them. That wasn't the case with me. [50:58] Thank God. I had enough problems I was [51:01] blaming the church on. I didn't need [51:03] more. But if you think about the [51:06] compounded abuse, so you got a guy [51:09] coming in, he's married, and he's not [51:10] supposed to have kids because it's the [51:12] end times. and you want don't want to [51:13] bring people into this world. So he [51:15] believes that already which is basically [51:16] stealing somebody's whole legacy and [51:19] future going completely contrary to [51:21] scripture that tells us to be fruitful [51:23] and multiply. Christians should have as [51:24] many kids as they possibly can. That's [51:27] one way to build a church but it's also [51:28] a way to set a foundation of godly [51:31] people in the land. So it's important to [51:34] do that. But so you have these guys [51:37] coming in and getting a vasectomy. Now [51:38] think about all that goes on. Okay? [51:41] Because not just the man is being abused [51:43] there, the wife too, because I'm sure I [51:45] could just imagine a scenario here. I'm [51:48] not talking about anybody's specific [51:50] story, but I could imagine a husband and [51:53] wife talking about this. And I'm sure [51:55] some of these men told their wives, I [51:57] need to go to the pastor and he wants to [52:00] have a look at me because he wants me to [52:03] get a basectomy. Now, how would that [52:05] wife possibly deal with it? What if [52:07] she's all her life wanted children and [52:10] now she has to put that aside because [52:12] the pastor is saying not [52:14] to. [52:16] Okay, so maybe she couldn't even tell [52:19] her husband that she doesn't feel [52:21] comfortable about that because you can't [52:23] talk about the pastor, right? You can't [52:26] question that [52:27] authority. Even if she did, this man, [52:30] whoever he might be that's going into [52:32] the office, he's already rationalized [52:34] it. He's already made peace with it. [52:36] He's worked it out. But now she has to [52:37] do the same thing. If she doesn't, then [52:39] they have a problem. So, she's going to [52:41] have to. And that might mean burying a [52:42] whole lot of real feelings that she has [52:44] and real convictions that she has. She [52:46] may even go to the scripture and see if [52:47] it's justified and find like I did that [52:50] it tells us to be fruitful. The kids are [52:52] a blessing. You know, that we shouldn't [52:55] be afraid of the world so much that we [52:56] can't even have [52:57] kids because there's protection on us [53:01] because we're in God's hand. Okay. [53:05] Now you've got this wife also [53:07] potentially messed up. Her husband is [53:10] being victimized. Imagine what she's [53:12] going through when she knows that her [53:13] husband's going off to his meeting with [53:15] Ernest [53:18] Angley. She has to think that he's being [53:20] victimized and she can't do anything [53:21] about it. She has to think that my [53:23] husband is being victimized and he's [53:25] okay with it. What kind of a man is [53:27] this? I mean, you think of the amount of [53:29] turmoil that's going on in somebody's [53:31] mind, not just in the man at this point. [53:36] you know, at at [53:38] least she has to pretend like she's okay [53:40] with it, even if she's [53:42] not. It's a big [53:44] mess. Now, I'm not saying that there's [53:47] no honor at all that we should be giving [53:50] our spiritual authorities. I'm just [53:52] saying that there are biblical [53:53] boundaries to the authority that our [53:56] leadership in in the church [53:58] has. I can only imagine for people that [54:01] went to Ernest Angley's that maybe went [54:03] through that scenario that I just told [54:04] you where a wife had to hide some of her [54:07] feelings because the husband Well, [54:09] imagine that they woke up one day and [54:10] left the [54:12] church. Now you now you're left to deal [54:16] with this. We allowed this to happen and [54:18] I can't even begin. [54:24] You just talk about you forget about the [54:26] human level, the pain that goes on with [54:28] people when they're abused in a church. [54:30] And one thing I'm thankful for is some [54:32] of the stuff that I've seen up close, [54:33] some of the stuff that I've taught [54:35] mistakenly that I'm embarrassed about. [54:37] Now, I think about these things that [54:39] I've been spared from. Sometimes I've [54:41] been hurt by following things too far. [54:43] I've questioned where's God? Why why is [54:45] why are these things happening? [54:48] But I'm so thankful that God has opened [54:49] my eyes to scripture enough and I'm so [54:52] so glad to be able to be a pastor [54:55] now that has been through some of these [54:58] kind of things where I I I feel it maybe [55:01] in a different way. And I think there [55:03] are probably a lot of pastors out there [55:04] that have similar backgrounds. So for [55:06] those that leave churches that get hurt, [55:08] I almost can't blame you. But I do want [55:11] to at least say there there are good [55:14] churches out there, too. But you think [55:15] about [55:17] this, all this mess that comes out of [55:21] holding leaders in too high regard. And [55:25] again, there there is honor in the [55:27] Bible, but there are boundaries. And if [55:30] we don't understand that, then we can [55:31] open ourselves up. We can open our [55:33] families [55:34] up to any number of abuses of all kinds [55:38] because people trust their spiritual [55:40] leaders and they should be able to. And [55:42] so it's such a betrayal [55:45] when they this leader that we're holding [55:48] up intentionally harms you, [55:50] intentionally harms people you [55:53] love. It's a betrayal when they [55:55] ignorantly harm them. When you think, [55:58] "How did I get taught that?" Maybe it [56:00] didn't even really lead to abuse or [56:02] anything, but it led me to a like a [56:04] spiritual wasteland where I wasn't able [56:06] to make sense of what scripture was [56:09] plainly saying compared to this [56:10] teaching. I have to believe the teaching [56:12] because I read it in this book and I [56:13] trust this person or I heard this guy [56:15] speak all the turmoil that goes on with [56:18] people. And a lot of pastors who buy [56:20] into this honor culture stuff, I'm not [56:23] saying that every one of them are [56:24] intentionally trying to abuse. I think a [56:26] lot of them in fact are probably [56:28] sincere. They're just not in the habit [56:30] of checking things either. And so a [56:33] pastor friend of theirs gives them a [56:34] book or has them listen to somebody and [56:36] they just, oh wow, that's great. That'll [56:37] really help people. And so in sincerity [56:39] they jump into things without thinking. [56:42] And while that might have been [56:44] okay 100 years ago, which even then you [56:48] should be checking, in the day and age [56:49] we live in now with the amount of media [56:51] that's out there, the amount of voices [56:52] that are out there, we just cannot do [56:54] that anymore. Pastors can't just grab [56:56] something off a shelf, not take a look [56:58] at who this person is, and start giving [57:00] it to people in their churches because [57:02] there's way too much out there. And we [57:05] have so much information right now. It's [57:07] doesn't take very long to to look into [57:10] people because spirit and and we have to [57:13] because good intentions sincerity [57:16] doesn't equal truth. Good intentions [57:18] don't matter when you've led somebody so [57:21] far away from the truth of God that they [57:23] don't even know which way is up anymore [57:24] in their spiritual walk. They don't know [57:26] what truth is anymore. They don't even [57:28] know how to look. And some people walk [57:30] around their entire Christian lives like [57:32] this. I don't want to have somebody in [57:34] in my pastoral [57:37] care [57:39] that 10 years down the road they're no [57:41] better than they were when they started. [57:43] In fact, in some cases they're worse [57:44] because [57:45] now they have so many unanswered [57:48] questions. They have so many [57:50] contradictions they think that they [57:51] haven't been able to work out that [57:53] they're just they're in worse shape. [57:54] They end up walking away from the faith. [57:55] And spiritual abuse can be so damaging. [57:58] It destroys people. It destroys [57:59] marriages. It destroys families. It [58:03] destroys innocent children in her [58:06] childhood and marks them for the rest of [58:07] their life with [58:08] us. That's why I don't feel bad [58:11] whatsoever about bringing names up. The [58:13] Bible tells us to. In fact, Paul wrote [58:16] down some of them for time and memoriam [58:18] in the scripture and the Holy Spirit [58:20] inspired that and was fine with that. So [58:22] when pastors call out people by name, I [58:24] I got zero problem with that because if [58:27] we're going to go online and we're going [58:28] to say things and we're going to present [58:29] oursel as somebody who knows what we're [58:31] talking about, it's out there. And the [58:34] Bible tells us if an elder in the church [58:36] falls into [58:37] sin, bring it out in front of all so [58:40] that everybody else might hear it and be [58:42] afraid to live a double life. To be a [58:45] hypocrite, to take God's truth, twist it [58:47] up, and use it for their own [58:49] benefit. The internet's public space. [58:52] The church is changing. It's changing. [58:54] And it's changing in a lot of bad ways, [58:56] but it's also changing in ways that are [58:58] helpful to those of us that are trying [59:00] to be sheep dogs and look out at the [59:02] horizon and warn the body of Christ. [59:06] Because I love the body of Christ. As [59:09] much as I hated them for years and years [59:10] and years, it was in this church that I [59:14] hated and [59:15] blamed where the people of God showed me [59:18] the love of Christ in a way that I'd [59:21] never seen before in my [59:22] life. Over time, this dysfunctional [59:25] church had [59:27] been growing the right direction. [59:30] Unbeknownst to me, I was hiding and [59:32] doing ministry. Then I left the church [59:34] altogether. Meanwhile, the church that I [59:36] was blaming, some of the folks that were [59:38] in there that were controlling and all [59:40] that, they were going out or being [59:42] changed. And it was the body of Christ [59:44] that loved me when I was at my total [59:46] lowest and show me a different side of [59:48] the people of God. So, I'm convinced. [59:51] And I've been turned been able to do the [59:52] same thing. I can sit across from [59:54] somebody who drops like a bombshell on [59:55] you and my feelings for that person [59:59] haven't changed. I get it. Sin is [60:01] damaging. It kills and it destroys and [60:03] it steals. But we're still dealing with [60:05] people here. And we're dealing with [60:07] people that Christ died for that he not [60:10] only shows mercy to, but grace and just [60:14] he can rebuild and salvage some of the [60:18] worst stories. Mine was pretty bad, but [60:20] he's brought me all the way around the [60:22] long road to get [60:23] here. But it's true. It can happen. You [60:27] may if honor culture is a part of the [60:29] teaching in your [60:32] church. You've got to start to [60:35] scrutinize some of the teaching. You [60:37] know, you have to you have to do your [60:40] research. You got to be careful. When we [60:42] don't see our leaders and their lives [60:44] close [60:45] up, especially in so many online [60:47] ministries or if you're in a really big [60:48] church and the pastor's insulated away [60:50] from the rest of the people, it's easy [60:52] to fall under the spell of this [60:53] personality that's standing in front of [60:55] you in Sunday. Even in churches [60:57] where you're in a personal relationship [61:01] with your leaders, if honor culture is [61:03] part of the teaching, then you may have [61:06] barriers between leaders and everybody [61:08] else. [61:11] So there might be too many to be able to [61:14] see how leaders actually live and how [61:16] they actually raise their [61:20] families. Don't allow too much [61:23] access from spiritual leaders into areas [61:26] that they weren't appointed by God to be [61:28] involved in. I'm going to show you just [61:31] a couple of quick red flags. I'm getting [61:33] a little bit long on this one, but I [61:35] don't I don't care. here. And actually, [61:37] I think it just hit an hour, so I won't [61:39] be too much longer. I just want to give [61:41] you a couple things to look for. You [61:43] might be in a church that's like this. [61:45] If you're calling pastors papa, mama, [61:47] mom, dad style leaders where you can't [61:49] do hardly anything without their say. [61:51] So, I [61:52] I've talked to people whose marriages [61:55] have been upended by a supposed prophet [61:59] because they didn't listen and and it's [62:01] just led to a lot of problems. [62:03] Okay, maybe here's another red flag. [62:05] When When other people in the church [62:09] teach, they always are quoting what this [62:11] honored leader says. He's quoted all the [62:13] time or his teachings are referred to [62:14] all the time. Now, I get that if you [62:16] have a pastor that teaches a lot like I [62:19] do, there are going to be things where [62:21] people say, "Well, you know, Jake said [62:22] this or that." There's a there's a [62:24] reverence sometimes when they pull [62:26] quotes. at Grace Cathedral. Angel's been [62:29] dead for a few years, but the two guys [62:31] that are doing a really bad [62:32] impersonation of Ernest Angley, they [62:36] quote him a lot. They talk like him, [62:38] they look like him. That kind of stuff, [62:39] that's messed up. There might be, if [62:41] it's a prophetic church that you're [62:43] in. You might hear things like, "You [62:45] remember when so and so prophesied fill [62:47] in the blank?" Or, you know, how apostle [62:50] one time told us, not little sayings. [62:52] I'm talking about real teachings. And [62:54] there was a local church around here [62:56] that I was watching a live stream like a [62:58] couple of years ago and they actually [62:59] pulled out like a whole big binder of [63:02] prophecies and every so often they go [63:05] through it and that's what they preach [63:06] out of. Like that's alert alert. They're [63:11] subtle hints. The leader's recognized a [63:14] little bit too much. He's honored a [63:15] little bit too much every single event. [63:17] Attention's called to the leader. [63:18] Attention's called the leader. Not [63:19] saying that for sure you're in abuse, [63:21] but that should be something that at [63:22] least perks up your intuition a little [63:25] bit. Okay? If you're being directed by a [63:29] leader on issues where he doesn't have [63:30] authority, like a wife, wife, you submit [63:33] to your own husband, not somebody [63:35] else's. So, while pastor may give you [63:37] advice, you're not bound by scripture to [63:39] follow that. It's your husband that [63:41] you're honoring, not not your pastor [63:43] first. You know, of course, we honor our [63:45] spiritual leaders, and we should if [63:46] they're good, but if you're being [63:49] directed on issues on that are domestic [63:51] issues and things like that, especially [63:53] if you're a woman that's a husband. I [63:55] once [63:56] heard of an exchange and it went kind of [63:59] like [64:00] this a person had come up to somebody [64:02] else and said, "The Holy Spirit wants me [64:04] to let you know that you're not [64:05] disciplining your kids the right way." [64:08] That kind of stuff. Don't listen to [64:09] that. You don't need to listen to that. [64:11] I'm not talking about getting wise [64:12] counsel, but even in [64:15] that, the pastor is there to direct you [64:17] to God's word, to direct you and remind [64:20] you of principles laid out by scripture [64:22] where that he can show you if you ask. [64:25] You're not supposed to be going to the [64:26] pastor assuming that they're going to [64:27] hear from God for you and then give you [64:29] what God said and transmit that to you. [64:32] That's a big no no. Scripture [64:35] doesn't show that God delegates that [64:38] kind of authority. God does delegate [64:41] authority. He's delegated in government, [64:43] at home, and at church. All three of [64:44] those are separate separate spheres. [64:46] When they bump into each other or [64:48] overlap into each other, that's where we [64:50] start to get problems. And you can learn [64:51] that this is all laid out in scripture [64:53] because each one of the authorities that [64:56] are set up by God, they each have their [64:58] own little proper place where they [65:00] function. The [65:02] government does its thing. They set [65:05] speed limits. The father has authority [65:07] in his home, but he can't change the [65:10] speed limit. You know what I mean? Only [65:12] the government can do that. But they [65:13] can't tell the father what car to buy or [65:15] what kind of air freshener to hang on [65:16] his mirror, right? How often to wash it, [65:19] things like that. How many baby on board [65:22] stickers you got or whatever. Church [65:24] authorities that God sets in [65:26] scripture. They're there to keep order [65:28] in the assembly when we all gather to [65:30] worship. They make decisions about the [65:32] facility. They decide what ministries [65:34] and where money should go to certain [65:37] ministries, things like that. But it's [65:39] especially specifically appointed that [65:41] church authority deal with doctrine, [65:43] teaching, exhorting the assembly, [65:46] rebuking false teaching, talking about [65:49] where error might be, correcting the [65:51] flock when somebody falls into sin in a [65:54] loving way, in a restorative way, not [65:56] pointing them out from the pulpit and [65:57] things like that. Okay. [66:02] The authority of pastors applies in [66:04] areas of biblical truth. Here's what the [66:07] Bible says. That kind of stuff. Even in [66:10] areas where like a husband and wife are [66:12] dealing with something or parenting [66:14] that's a different sphere. They may come [66:16] to a pastor and the pastor's job is to [66:19] show you what God says about this. [66:21] That's the way that's supposed to work. [66:22] You can't force a couple to act a [66:24] certain way. You can't force a parent to [66:26] discipline in a certain way. You can't [66:28] tell somebody what job to take, where to [66:30] live, whether or not they have kids. We [66:32] have to be careful to use right [66:34] judgment. [66:36] Okay? And pastors do too. A pastor might [66:39] tell you if you're like, "Hey, I don't [66:40] know about this job, but it's going to [66:42] cause me to miss three Sundays a month [66:44] to worship." A pastor may very well say, [66:46] "You know, you really want to consider [66:48] that for your spiritual life. We do need [66:49] to gather together for the with the [66:51] saints." So they might remind you how [66:53] often you're going to miss gathering [66:55] together as God prescribes for us. Do [66:57] you have other opportunities to do it? [66:58] Because if not, you may be out on your [67:00] own. You're going to be susceptible to [67:01] spiritual attack. Sure, that's [67:04] right. [67:05] But that's just him reminding you what [67:08] God says. That's just part of pastoring. [67:10] And it's to help the flock become more [67:12] mindful of spiritual reality and what [67:15] God says about everything. [67:17] You might have a spoiled brat that's [67:19] kicking his mom all the way into the [67:20] church and the pastor may say, "Hey, you [67:22] shouldn't let that happen." Okay, that's [67:24] not spiritual abuse. When it comes [67:26] abusive is [67:28] when you're punished in some way for not [67:31] taking the [67:33] advice or he's upset because you [67:36] disagree with him about something. So, [67:37] you lose your position in the church [67:40] or you're ostracized now. You've given [67:43] the cold [67:44] shoulder. You know, if it's the church's [67:46] policy, don't wear shorts on a platform, [67:48] and you happen to be on the platform [67:49] wearing shorts, and they tell you, [67:50] "Please don't do that anymore." And you [67:52] keep doing it, they may push you off and [67:53] say, "Okay, you're not going to be [67:55] allowed to do this until you hear the [67:56] dress code." That's not spiritual [67:59] abuse. It's when leaders start having [68:03] authority in areas that God doesn't give [68:04] them any scripture to support that [68:06] authority. That's what you want to watch [68:07] out for. And if you've been through [68:09] this, I [68:11] uh I know that it can be very hard to [68:13] trust a church leader, a pastor. It [68:16] could be hard to ever walk into a church [68:18] again. I understand that. But don't give [68:19] up. You can ask questions of churches. [68:22] I'm going to be doing an episode on how [68:23] to get out of one of these churches [68:25] coming up and and how to find one after [68:27] you've been hurt. Some things you can [68:28] look for that may help. You can get to [68:31] know how leaders operate just by asking [68:33] some really simple questions right at [68:34] the outset. Before you even visit, you [68:36] can call. Ask a pastor how do they view [68:39] pastoral authority? Where does it stop [68:41] and start? Where do they believe the [68:43] boundaries are? A good way to guard [68:46] yourself is to stay away from prophetic [68:48] churches altogether. And I'm not [68:50] despising prophecy here. I'm despising [68:53] false prophecy and authoritarian leaders [68:56] that utilize prophecy as a means to [68:58] control people. If you stay out of [69:00] churches where that's going on all the [69:01] time, that's going to probably save you [69:03] all kinds of problems down the road. But [69:06] when somebody's elevated higher than [69:08] others based on spiritual gifts, either [69:11] real or just self-proclaimed, doesn't [69:13] even matter in some of these circles, [69:16] but especially apostles and prophets, [69:18] you've already set up yourself for this [69:21] potentially. So steer clear of that [69:24] stuff. You want to honor leaders, and [69:26] that doesn't mean unconditional [69:29] obedience and dedication to this person. [69:32] It just means to value what they do, to [69:34] pray for them, value how they teach [69:36] God's word and the time that they put [69:37] in, respecting the position, not blind [69:41] obedience to their every whim and every [69:43] command. When the Bible's open, they're [69:46] speaking for God. When that Bible's [69:48] closed, when you hear, "The Lord told [69:49] me," or "The Spirit revealed this to [69:52] me," be very, very cautious. Don't be [69:55] afraid to challenge spiritual leaders [69:57] with scripture. And it's not wrong to [69:59] question. God gave you a brain. You're [70:01] allowed to use critical thinking. So, if [70:03] this helped you, please like, share, [70:06] subscribe. It would really help me out. [70:08] The more of those things that happen on [70:10] YouTube, especially the more I have a [70:12] chance to to reach people. If you've [70:14] heard what I said and didn't like it, I [70:17] appreciate you for listening this long. [70:19] And I just thank everybody who maybe [70:21] listened to this for a little over an [70:24] hour. I hope to see you back next time [70:26] on R3 later. [70:37] [Music]  📄 **Full text:** ![[Full Document Contents/Articles/Spiritual CoveringSpiritual Mother and FatherHonor CultureCharismatic - EP #3|Spiritual Covering/Spiritual Mother and Father/Honor CultureCharismatic - EP #3, YouTube]] ## Highlights - Hi, my name is Jake Nelson and I'm the pastor at East Market Church in Akran, Ohio. And this is RE E3. I want to encourage people to re-evaluate some of their beliefs, actually take them to scripture, learn to renew their mind, and reconstruct faith. So maybe you've left a church because you had an abusive authoritarian leader. Or maybe you're in a church right now and you're seeing some things that don't quite seem scriptural, but you don't know what to do about it. And this will be hopefully ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvs9mwytqsk7vbz4qf4vtk)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - seeing the damage from this and buying into a lot of these N teachers who one of them particularly, Mike Bickl was one that I had my eye on. I was watching what they were doing over at in Kansas City and I was trying to emulate some of those things at our church when I was a worship leader. But once I started to learn what was actually going on with some of this u taking teachings to scripture is what woke me up. And now as a pastor, I deal with people that come out of these sometimes and it's there's so much healing that needs to take place. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvs9n4tfgbb4t724wy55jd)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - absolute authority over the congregation. So even with William Brandham, there were times where people couldn't do anything without the pastor's okay. And if you're just hearing something like this for the very first time, it might sound obvious to you that this is wrong. Like how stupid could these people be? Well, when you grow up in it like I did and like many do, if that's all you've ever known, you don't realize how off it is. And because they're not being trained really to read the Bible, I knew a lot of memory ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvs9q015y9jq1p9mffwtps)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - just try to gauge their response if they Now, we didn't have abusive leadership here. In the circles that I've been in most of my Christian life, we're not used to questioning things very much. We hear from another church that, hey, this is a great book. It really helped our congregation. And so we just go, "Oh, sweet." And then we just read it. And if we don't understand some things or if we question things, it's easy to just assume that they know the Bible better than we do. Now, at our church, when we ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvs9rh0gvqgr5x7001qhsz)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - were reading it, we didn't have a pastor who you were going to go up to and say, "Should I buy this car? Should I date this person?" And even if he did, he probably would have said, "Use your brain. I don't know. What are you asking me for?" So, in a lot of churches, this is going to this kind of teaching is going to go through the congregation. It's not going to cause any harm. It's not going to really even change much of what they already do, but not for everybody. And with a guy like John Bevere, who's very influential, what he says carries a lot ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvs9tp7m6j89bvprbkhtwg)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - pulpit, well, you're training yourself to actually get to the point where you're afraid to think critically about anything that you're being taught. Anything you hear from this person or this pulpit or this prophet, apostle, you don't dare question it because you'll be under God's cursing. That's rebellion and that's witchcraft. You see how this all works together to keep people enslaved. And so when people are in environments like this, they'll put up with all sorts of weird things, even in ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvsa1cg7pmm4ea35tcmmpe)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - didn't even really lead to abuse or anything, but it led me to a like a spiritual wasteland where I wasn't able to make sense of what scripture was plainly saying compared to this teaching. I have to believe the teaching because I read it in this book and I trust this person or I heard this guy speak all the turmoil that goes on with people. And a lot of pastors who buy into this honor culture stuff, I'm not saying that every one of them are intentionally trying to abuse. I think a lot of them in fact are probably sincere. They're just not in the habit ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvsaffbafvqezn9c2zrjpw)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - just led to a lot of problems. Okay, maybe here's another red flag. When When other people in the church teach, they always are quoting what this honored leader says. He's quoted all the time or his teachings are referred to all the time. Now, I get that if you have a pastor that teaches a lot like I do, there are going to be things where people say, "Well, you know, Jake said this or that." There's a there's a reverence sometimes when they pull quotes. at Grace Cathedral. Angel's been dead for a few years, but the two guys ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvsasjgdamngd8qmcakyep)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - taking the advice or he's upset because you disagree with him about something. So, you lose your position in the church or you're ostracized now. You've given the cold shoulder. You know, if it's the church's policy, don't wear shorts on a platform, and you happen to be on the platform wearing shorts, and they tell you, "Please don't do that anymore." And you keep doing it, they may push you off and say, "Okay, you're not going to be allowed to do this until you hear the dress code." That's not spiritual abuse. It's when leaders start having ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvsbm5r9w4z8nmzbt64mx2)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - authority in areas that God doesn't give them any scripture to support that authority. That's what you want to watch out for. And if you've been through this, I uh I know that it can be very hard to trust a church leader, a pastor. It could be hard to ever walk into a church again. I understand that. But don't give up. You can ask questions of churches. I'm going to be doing an episode on how to get out of one of these churches coming up and and how to find one after you've been hurt. Some things you can look for that may help. You can get to ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvscdqzavjbxj32bcktrc2)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted