The Parenting Prosperity Gospel With Kelsey Kramer McGinnis

The Parenting Prosperity Gospel With Kelsey Kramer McGinnis ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/uh_rkOYaH1I/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [The Parenting Prosperity Gospel With Kelsey Kramer McGinnis](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uh_rkOYaH1I) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: #parenting #prosperity-theology #evangelicalism #christian-practices #digital-secularism #ai-ethics > author: Phil Vischer > source: Holy Post Media > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uh_rkOYaH1I > date created: 2025-01-27 13:45 > > # 🏷️ Title: The Parenting Prosperity Gospel with Kelsey Kramer McGinnis (Ep. 717) >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Review AI ethics consultation process with Christian leaders — Anthropic meeting #ai-ethics - [H2] Consider structured dialogue vs. public debate format — French-Stucky debate analysis #dialogue - [H3] Explore John Mark Comer's practices for digital exhaustion — contemplative Christianity #christian-practices ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [[#📝 Summary]] - [[#📖 Main Content]] - [[#🗒️ Notes]] - [[#📚 References]] - [[#🗣️ Paraphrase]] - [[#📰 Newsletter]] - [[#✅ Action Items]] - [[#🧪 Hypotheses]] - [[#📊 Methodology]] - [[#❓ Questions]] - [[#🔮 Future Research]] - [[#💡 Implications]] - [[#🧠 Learning Styles Assessment]] - [[#📊 Accessibility Assessment]] - [[#🌍 DEIB Assessment]] - [[#✅ Logical Validity]] - [[#🛡️ DARVO Analysis]] - [[#🎯 Conclusion]] ### 🔗 References - [The Atlantic - John Mark Comer Article](URL) - [Anthropic AI Ethics Consultation](URL) ## 📝 Summary - Holy Post discusses three major topics: Anthropic's Christian ethics consultation for AI, the French-Stucky debate dynamics, and John Mark Comer's popularity among secular millennials - Anthropic hosted Christian leaders to guide Claude AI's moral development, raising questions about which religious traditions will ultimately influence AI ethics - David French and Allie Beth Stucky's debate illustrated the limitations of public theological debates versus private dialogue - Young professionals are embracing contemplative Christian practices as an antidote to digital secularism exhaustion - The main interview with Kelsey Kramer McGinnis about prosperity theology in evangelical parenting was announced but not included in this transcript portion ## 📖 Main Content The episode explores tensions between truth-claiming and interpersonal virtues in Christian discourse. Phil and Skye analyze why public debates often fail to change minds, noting that being "right" doesn't automatically make one righteous - the fruit of the Spirit consists entirely of interpersonal qualities. They examine how AI companies are seeking religious guidance while potentially cherry-picking traditions that serve their profit motives. The discussion reveals growing secular interest in ancient Christian practices as people exhaust themselves with digital self-definition. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/uh_rkOYaH1I?t=0) — [H1] Welcome and setup - Key idea: Caitlyn joins remotely from sister's birthday celebration at Georgetown Law - Evidence: "She's in her last class of Georgetown Law School. She will be a lawyer this summer." #### ⏱️ [08:32](https://youtu.be/uh_rkOYaH1I?t=512) — [H2] French-Stucky debate analysis - Key idea: Public theological debates rarely change minds despite civil discourse - Evidence: "About 680 comments said 'Allie, you're so great. You smoked him.' Maybe six said 'David did a good job.'" #### ⏱️ [15:45](https://youtu.be/uh_rkOYaH1I?t=945) — [H1] Truth versus righteousness distinction - Key idea: Being right doesn't make you righteous; interpersonal virtues matter more - Evidence: "Scripture does not include truth or rightness as a fruit of the spirit. Everything listed is an interpersonal quality." #### ⏱️ [22:18](https://youtu.be/uh_rkOYaH1I?t=1338) — [H2] Biblical truth versus empathy framework - Key idea: Both sides use emotions while claiming objectivity about biblical truth - Evidence: "Anger is an emotion. Disgust is an emotion. All of that is motivating policy positions rhetorically." #### ⏱️ [35:42](https://youtu.be/uh_rkOYaH1I?t=2142) — [H1] Anthropic AI ethics consultation - Key idea: Tech company seeks Christian guidance for AI moral development - Evidence: "15 Christian leaders... discussed how Claude should respond to users grieving and whether Claude should be considered a 'child of God.'" #### ⏱️ [42:15](https://youtu.be/uh_rkOYaH1I?t=2535) — [H1] AI safety concerns with new model - Key idea: Latest AI model too dangerous for public release due to hacking capabilities - Evidence: "Particularly good at finding flaws in code that humans would never notice... potential to bring down the global economy." #### ⏱️ [48:30](https://youtu.be/uh_rkOYaH1I?t=2910) — [H2] Multiple religious traditions consultation problem - Key idea: Companies will choose most profitable ethical framework from various traditions - Evidence: "They're going to pick the one that allows them to make more money and still call themselves ethical." #### ⏱️ [55:20](https://youtu.be/uh_rkOYaH1I?t=3320) — [H3] Human desires enabling harmful technology - Key idea: Technology succeeds partly because it gives us what we want but shouldn't have - Evidence: "On some level people want to talk to chat GPT instead of a pastor or friend or therapist." #### ⏱️ [62:45](https://youtu.be/uh_rkOYaH1I?t=3765) — [H1] John Mark Comer Atlantic article - Key idea: Secular millennials embracing contemplative Christian practices for digital exhaustion - Evidence: "27-year-old living in New York City... tried to follow what you're preaching... surprised by how much these practices have become central to my life." #### ⏱️ [68:12](https://youtu.be/uh_rkOYaH1I?t=4092) — [H2] Digital secularism exhaustion - Key idea: Constant self-definition in digital spaces creates burnout among young adults - Evidence: "Completely self-defined life of digital secularism is really exhausting... you have to do that over and over again every moment." #### ⏱️ [72:30](https://youtu.be/uh_rkOYaH1I?t=4350) — [H2] Ancient practices as alternative to digital autonomy - Key idea: Traditional Christian disciplines offer structure against infinite daily decisions - Evidence: "Here's a whole tradition... that can answer many of those questions and give you the framework for your life." ## 📚 References - [The Atlantic Article on John Mark Comer](URL) - [Anthropic AI Ethics Report](URL) - [French-Stucky Debate Video](URL) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Public theological debates often fail because they force positions rather than exploring common ground, while comment sections reveal that audiences mainly seek confirmation rather than persuasion - AI companies consulting religious leaders sounds positive but raises concerns about cherry-picking traditions that support profit motives while claiming ethical guidance - Young secular adults are increasingly drawn to contemplative Christian practices as an antidote to the exhaustion of constantly defining themselves in digital spaces ## 📰 Newsletter **Ancient Wisdom for Digital Exhaustion** This week's Holy Post reveals a fascinating trend: burned-out millennials are turning to contemplative Christian practices not as religious conversion but as relief from digital secularism's demands. When The Atlantic profiles someone embracing Sabbath, fasting, and scripture reading as lifestyle upgrades, we're witnessing something profound about human flourishing. The conversation also tackles critical questions about AI ethics and the limits of public theological debate. As tech companies seek religious guidance for artificial intelligence, Christians must engage thoughtfully about which values will shape our digital future. **Key Takeaway**: The fruit of the Spirit consists entirely of interpersonal qualities - love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control. Truth-telling without these virtues may be accurate but isn't Christian. Resources: [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [Developer Docs](https://developer.wordpress.org/), [WP-CLI](https://wp-cli.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer experience: Create guidelines for ethical AI integration in developer tools - Community management: Facilitate respectful theological discussions in tech communities - Developer marketing: Highlight values-driven technology development approaches #### Community - Contributors: Develop frameworks for civil disagreement in online communities - Maintainers: Consider how traditional practices inform digital community governance - Ecosystem: Foster dialogue between tech and faith communities #### WordPress - Community: Create resources for churches adopting digital tools mindfully - Documentation: Develop guidelines for ethical AI plugin development - Accessibility: Ensure contemplative practices remain accessible across platforms #### The WPCC - Programs: Fund research into technology's impact on spiritual formation - Projects: Support initiatives bridging ancient wisdom and modern technology #### FAIR - Policies: Advocate for transparent AI development processes - Governance artifacts: Create frameworks for ethical technology adoption ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Public theological debates reinforce existing positions rather than changing minds - AI ethics consultations will prioritize profitable frameworks over restrictive religious guidance - Digital secularism exhaustion is driving renewed interest in traditional spiritual practices - Contemplative Christian practices provide effective countermeasures to technology addiction ### 📊 Methodology - Analyze comment patterns on theological debates for evidence of mind-changing - Survey millennials practicing contemplative disciplines about motivations and outcomes - Compare AI company ethics policies before and after religious consultations - Study correlation between digital usage and interest in ancient spiritual practices ### ❓ Questions - How can Christians influence AI development beyond token consultations? - What makes contemplative practices appealing to secular audiences exhausted by digital life? - Why do public theological debates fail while private conversations succeed? ### 🔮 Future Research - Long-term effects of contemplative practices on digital natives - Comparative analysis of different religious traditions' influence on AI ethics - Effectiveness of various formats for productive theological dialogue ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Prioritize interpersonal virtues over being right in theological discussions - Policy: Advocate for meaningful religious input in AI development, not token consultation - Education: Teach contemplative practices as digital wellness tools - Community: Create spaces for private dialogue before public debate ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th grade #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Discussion format with clear topic transitions - Improve: Infographics comparing debate formats, timelines of AI development #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Podcast format with conversational flow - Improve: Audio summaries of key theological concepts #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Rich vocabulary, analogies (Schrödinger's strait), definitions - Improve: Glossary of theological and technical terms #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Actionable discussion of practices and policies - Improve: Step-by-step guides for implementing contemplative practices #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear cause-effect relationships between digital exhaustion and spiritual seeking - Improve: Decision trees for ethical AI development #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community-focused discussion format - Improve: Discussion guides for groups exploring these topics #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual reflection on personal technology use - Improve: Self-assessment tools for digital wellness #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Metaphors connecting ancient wisdom to modern life - Improve: Examples of seasonal rhythms in digital practices ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear topic transitions and speaker identification - Improve: Detailed show notes with timestamps #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard podcast controls - Improve: Chapter markers for easy navigation #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard podcast platform accessibility - Improve: High-contrast transcript options #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive transcript display - Improve: Customizable text size options #### Media and captions - Present: Audio content with partial transcript - Improve: Complete transcript with speaker identification #### Forms and interactions - Present: Basic podcast interaction - Improve: Accessible feedback forms for listener input ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion of various religious traditions - Improve: More diverse voices in AI ethics conversation #### Inclusive language - Present: Generally accessible theological discussion - Improve: Define technical terms more consistently #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear topic structure and transitions - Improve: Content warnings for intense topics #### Representation - Present: Mix of academic and practical perspectives - Improve: Include voices from various denominational backgrounds #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful treatment of disagreement - Improve: Clearer guidelines for handling controversy ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Clear connection between digital exhaustion and spiritual seeking - Inductive strength: Evidence from Atlantic article supports broader cultural trends - Causal reasoning: Links between debate format and audience response well-established - Analogical strength: Comparison between AI development and child-rearing effective #### Fallacies - Hasty generalization: Drawing broad conclusions from limited comment analysis - False dichotomy: Occasional framing of truth vs. empathy as either/or choice #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Conversational but thoughtful, balancing humor with serious topics ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No significant denial patterns observed - Attack: Minimal attacking of persons rather than positions - Reverse victim/offender: No evident victim/offender reversals - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Generally balanced, some frustration with AI development pace ## 🎯 Conclusion This episode highlights three interconnected challenges facing contemporary Christianity: maintaining civility in theological disagreement, influencing ethical technology development, and offering ancient wisdom as medicine for modern digital exhaustion. The most promising development may be secular recognition that contemplative practices provide necessary relief from digital autonomy's demands, creating new opportunities for Christian witness through embodied wisdom rather than argumentative victory. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad Purpose: Stage CEE units that become Literature notes. Split level: H3 ### [H1] Interpersonal virtues outweigh doctrinal correctness > [!quote] [The Parenting Prosperity Gospel with Kelsey Kramer McGinnis](https://youtu.be/uh_rkOYaH1I) by Phil Vischer via Holy Post Media. Published 2025-01-27. Accessed 2025-01-27. > "Scripture does not include truth or rightness as a fruit of the spirit. Everything that's listed as a fruit of the spirit is an interpersonal quality." Skye challenges the assumption that being right makes one righteous, emphasizing that biblical faithfulness manifests through relational qualities rather than doctrinal victory. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/uh_rkOYaH1I?t=945#H1) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_001 ### [H2] Public debates entrench rather than persuade > [!quote] [The Parenting Prosperity Gospel with Kelsey Kramer McGinnis](https://youtu.be/uh_rkOYaH1I) > "When you are in a debate, the conversation is set up forces you into a position where you need to give as little ground as possible." Caitlyn observes that debate formats prevent the mutual exploration and common ground recognition that characterize productive theological dialogue. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/uh_rkOYaH1I?t=1338#H2) #xref ID:rw_002 --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) Purpose: Promote reusable claims into Atomic notes. Split level: H4 #### [Z1] Digital secularism creates exhaustion through constant self-definition - Scope: Young adults in urban digital environments - Pointer: 62:45 timestamp discussion - Links: [[Digital-Wellness]] [[Contemplative-Practices]] #### [Z2] AI ethics consultations may prioritize profitable frameworks - --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] Welcome to the Holy Post. On this week's [00:02] show, Anthropic has sought the help of [00:04] Christian theologians to make Claude, [00:06] their AI model, more ethical. But [00:08] they're also meeting with [00:09] representatives from other religions and [00:11] philosophical traditions. Should that [00:13] make us feel more optimistic about tech [00:15] companies controlling our futures? Then [00:17] The Atlantic has a story about the [00:19] popularity of John Mark Comer, even [00:21] among non-religious young adults. Is his [00:24] advocacy for contemplative Christian [00:25] practices the answer to digital [00:27] secularism that our culture has been [00:29] searching for? Then Kelsey Kramer [00:31] McGinnis, co-author of The Myth of Good [00:33] Christian Parenting, talks with me about [00:35] the explosive rise of evangelical [00:37] parenting books in the late 20th century [00:40] and the prosperity theology that's [00:42] behind them. She says the same ideas are [00:44] still popular today, but they're taking [00:46] on new forms. All of this, plus [00:49] debriefing the Stucky versus French [00:51] debate. [00:52] We get so many wonderful messages from [00:54] those of you who appreciate the content [00:55] we create here at Holy Post Media. The [00:57] whole team loves getting those emails or [00:59] seeing your encouraging posts on social [01:01] media. But the very best way to support [01:03] the work we do is by becoming a member [01:06] of Holy Post Plus. For just a few bucks [01:08] each month, you'll be helping us make [01:10] more of the faithful pro-neighbor [01:12] Christian content that our culture so [01:13] desperately needs right now. And by [01:16] signing up for Holy Post Plus, you'll [01:17] get access to all the amazing [01:19] member-exclusive content that we make, [01:21] including bonus interviews, exclusive [01:24] shows like Getting Schooled, The SkyPod, [01:26] Advice-ish, and 66 verses to explain the [01:29] Bible. And you'll have access to live [01:31] streams, merchandise, and special [01:33] sub-series like Why I'm Still a [01:35] Christian. There's a whole lot to [01:36] explore, and new content is being added [01:39] almost every day. So, come join the [01:41] growing community of Holy Posters by [01:43] signing up for Holy Post Plus. You can [01:45] learn more at holypost.com. [01:48] Here is episode 717. [01:51] Hey there, welcome back to the Holy Post [01:53] podcast. I'm Phil Vischer. I'm here with [01:55] Skye Jethani. Hi, Skye. [01:56] >> Hi, Phil. Um and Caitlyn is not sitting [01:59] next to me. This is unusual. She's She's [02:02] gone away. She flew the coop. But she's [02:05] dialing in from an undisclosed location. [02:08] It's a top-secret military base [02:10] somewhere. [02:11] >> of true. Somewhere off [02:13] >> the coast of Guam, we think. She's [02:15] floating in the ocean. It's not for that [02:18] excite I mean, it is actually an [02:19] exciting reason. It's just not like a [02:20] secret military reason. My sister it's [02:23] her 30th birthday today. So, I went to [02:26] hang out with her for her birthday. [02:27] >> Well, why don't you call her in so we [02:28] can sing to her? Want to call her in? [02:30] >> She's in class right now. She's in her [02:32] last class of Georgetown Law School. She [02:35] will [02:36] be a lawyer this summer. Which is crazy. [02:38] >> Oh, wow. So, between the two of you, [02:42] you must like to argue about things. We [02:45] Yeah, and we really love school. [02:47] >> [laughter] [02:49] >> Okay, well, we'll have to have her on [02:51] sometime. We'll have to meet her and get [02:53] I bet everyone wants to get to know [02:54] Caitlyn's sister. Don't you, everyone? [02:57] >> You could have her talk about, you know, [02:59] the injustice of the criminal justice [03:01] system. You could get some real hot [03:03] takes out of her, to be honest. [03:04] >> Sure. You guys You needed more siblings [03:06] so you could have some underachievers. [03:08] Yes. Well, they put all the achievement [03:10] They were originally going to have seven [03:12] kids, but then they decided to only have [03:14] two. So, [03:15] we saved up all of this achievement [03:17] potential. We'll just cram it into these [03:20] two until they're overflowing, and they [03:22] annoy everyone with their achievement [03:24] levels. [03:25] >> Wouldn't that be terrible if if every [03:26] sibling you had diluted your abilities [03:29] or intelligence? That That would not be [03:31] good. Yeah. I'm glad that God didn't do [03:33] that. Yeah. Thank you, Lord. Okay, [03:36] here's the theme song. [03:40] What's the [music] news that you like [03:42] the most? Who's your favorite podcast [03:45] host? If it's breakfast, get your toast. [03:48] It's Skye, [music] Phil, Caitlyn, and [03:50] The Holy [singing] Post. Skye, Phil, [03:53] Caitlyn, and The Holy Post. And [03:55] sometimes other people. [03:57] >> [singing] [03:59] [music] [04:01] >> Holy Post is sponsored by Hiya Health. [04:03] It's hard to get kids to eat well [04:04] [music] in a fast-food drive-thru world. [04:07] Hiya Health can help with kids vitamins [04:09] [music] that taste great with zero [04:11] sugar, zero gummy additives, just clean [04:14] nutrition. And here's something [music] [04:15] every parent needs to hear. 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[05:06] Might explain why everyone hated Joseph [05:08] so much. [05:10] Oh. Yeah, [05:11] that's a good point. Yeah, you should [05:13] write a book on that. It's a whole [05:14] theory. Every Here's why everyone hated [05:17] Joseph. [05:18] >> [laughter] [05:19] >> By Skye Jethani. Bad theological takes. [05:22] >> Oh, do I have to come back after the [05:23] break? [05:26] I think this is all in. We're just [05:28] leaving all of this in. [05:30] >> [laughter] [05:32] >> So, [05:33] um we're still at war. [05:35] Or we're not. We're not at war. We are [05:38] Someone said the strait is open, the [05:41] strait is closed. It's like [05:43] Schrödinger's strait. [05:45] >> [laughter] [05:47] >> That it can be in two states [05:48] simultaneously. That's a quantum physics [05:51] joke for those of you Schrödinger's cat. [05:53] Anyway, which is funny. Stuff's going [05:56] on. It's crazy. I don't know. There's [05:58] not much to say about it at this point [06:00] except that it's still happening. It's [06:01] in [06:03] I I don't know if it's worth talking [06:04] about because by the time this goes to [06:06] air, it'll change. Exactly. [06:08] >> Yeah. So, anyway, but there is a [06:11] conflict that I do want to talk about. [06:12] There was a very high-level meeting, [06:14] very high-level. Two warring parties got [06:17] together to see if they could find [06:20] middle ground, to see if they could work [06:22] out a truce. [06:23] The state of Illinois and the Chicago [06:25] Bears? Uh [06:26] no, but that would be good if they could [06:28] do that. Uh David French made an [06:30] appearance on the Allie Beth Stucky [06:31] show. It's not a podcast. It's a show. [06:34] It's a show on on Blaze TV. [06:38] Which is Glenn Beck's thing. [06:40] >> Yeah. It's Glenn Beck's TV enterprise. [06:42] Anyway, David French, I don't know how [06:44] he got invited. Um Allie Beth Stucky and [06:48] um Megan Basham and a few others kind of [06:51] go after him pretty relentlessly. So, he [06:54] said, "I'll come on your show." So, he [06:55] came on Allie Beth Stucky's show, and [06:57] they were going to have a debate. And [06:59] they talked for like an hour and a half [07:01] and um last week, and the reactions were [07:07] you know, a fair number of people I saw [07:09] said, "Oh, this is good. This should [07:11] happen more often. People that don't [07:13] agree talking civilly." And it was [07:15] civil, and and you know, Allie Beth [07:17] Stucky is civil. She's not going to yell [07:20] or scream or And David is very civil. [07:22] >> David is highly civil. He is so [07:25] civilized. [07:26] >> Mhm. [07:27] So, it seemed to go okay. The question [07:30] was [07:31] was it worth it? Did anyone change their [07:34] mind about anything? It did not seem [07:37] that Allie Beth Can you call her Allie [07:40] or Allie Beth? I don't call I've never [07:42] met her. Mrs. Stucky. I think she's [07:45] married. Do you remember Stuckey's? [07:47] Roadside They have restaurants called [07:49] Stuckey's. Anyway, I had an incident in [07:50] one in Indiana. Oh, well, let's take [07:52] some time and hear about that. No, [07:54] that's okay. They don't have them [07:56] anymore. And a lot of them now you drive [07:58] by them and they've turned into uh like [08:00] adult bookstores on the side of the road [08:02] in some locations. Used to be a [08:03] Stuckey's. You can tell by the shape of [08:05] the roof. [08:06] >> No. No, no, no. Okay, look at the cat is [08:08] going right now. Oh, [laughter] look at [08:10] the cat. You were right. It is It is [08:12] odd. So, [08:14] here's what I did. I wanted to see if it [08:17] because I too was invited to go on Allie [08:20] Beth Stucky's show. She She said she was [08:23] willing to have me on her show. I said, [08:24] "Sure, I'll come on your show." So, they [08:26] reached out to me, invited me, and they [08:28] said, "But you have to come to Dallas. [08:30] We don't do anything remotely." I was [08:32] like, "No. I don't know No." Somehow [08:34] David decided that was [08:35] >> I don't know if he was in Dallas or if [08:37] he honestly made a trip to Dallas [08:39] >> He travels a lot. He travels a lot. So, [08:42] maybe he was in Dallas. So, here's what [08:44] I did. I went through [08:46] uh there were like by the time I looked [08:48] at it, there were about 700 comments on [08:51] her YouTube page of people commenting on [08:54] the debate. And I wanted to see how many [08:57] people gave evidence that they changed [09:00] their mind about something. [09:02] No, on the internet? [09:04] >> Couldn't you Couldn't you have asked AI [09:06] to do that for you? I don't know. I [09:08] don't know if if AI can I don't know [09:10] what AI can do. It scares me, and I [09:12] think it's trying to steal my soul. So, [09:14] I I just skinned I skimmed them. I just [09:16] skimmed 700 comments. And there were [09:19] maybe um [09:21] six that said, "David did a good job." [09:24] There were maybe 10 that said, "Um I [09:27] appreciate conversations like this." And [09:29] then there were about 680 that said, [09:33] "Allie, you're so great. You smoked [09:34] him." Mhm. And that was That was like [09:37] 90% of the comments were, "Oh, I can't [09:39] stand listening to this man. Oh, he's so [09:41] terrible. Oh, I tried to listen for 20 [09:43] minutes, but his sanctimoniousness was [09:46] more than I could handle." And I was I [09:48] just kind of Okay, this didn't do [09:50] anything. I don't think it did anything. [09:52] And I asked David afterwards, and he [09:53] kind of had the same [09:55] reaction. He's like, "Yeah, probably [09:56] wasn't a good use of time. [09:58] >> I [09:59] I don't know if he went into it [10:00] expecting it to move at the needle in [10:02] any which way, but the fact that he went [10:05] on, [10:06] number one showed he's [10:08] game [10:08] >> He's game. He's not afraid. Number two, [10:10] hopefully their direct interaction with [10:12] each other humanized the conversation a [10:15] little bit. [10:15] >> Yeah, sure. Even if those commenting [10:18] have no problem demonizing one side or [10:20] the other, hopefully the two of them, [10:21] you know. I mean, Dave [10:23] saw no no evidence that David didn't [10:25] humanize Allie Beth Stuckey before. And [10:27] I don't know if she did to him either, [10:29] but [10:29] >> Yeah. [10:31] I don't know. Does anyone watch it and [10:32] be like, "Oh, maybe I should be less [10:34] harsh on people who [10:36] are willing to sit down and have a civil [10:37] conversation?" [10:38] >> I don't know that anyone would have [10:39] watched it who has been formed to think [10:43] David French is evil, who would come [10:45] away saying, "Actually, he's not." [10:48] I just I just [10:49] >> Yeah. You know, and and in the days [10:52] since then, [10:53] Allie Beth's team has been pulling [10:55] clips, you know, where she did really [10:57] well, and posting them on social media. [11:00] >> Yeah. Or pulling clips where David says [11:02] things that they think don't make him [11:05] look very good, and posting those on [11:06] social media. So, the fact that you [11:08] don't control the edit, [11:09] >> Right. you know, definitely works I [11:11] against you. This gets to the point of I [11:14] There are times where debates can be [11:15] super helpful, [11:17] but I don't think they ultimately move [11:18] the needle, which is part of the reason [11:19] we have not made Holy Post Media into a [11:22] debate platform. [11:24] >> we're an echo chamber, and we can't [11:26] stand up to scrutiny. [11:29] No. [11:29] >> I've been told. [11:30] >> I don't think that's it. [11:31] >> That's what I've been told, Sky Jethani. [11:33] >> I don't think that's it. [11:34] >> Okay. I mean, that I understand why [11:36] people would argue that from the other [11:38] side, but I [11:40] Yeah, I don't see that It's not [11:41] fruitful. It's just not fruitful. [11:43] >> you love debating. So, why don't you [11:47] want You did it professionally. So, why [11:50] >> It's actually why I That was the number [11:52] one thing I left listening, cuz I just [11:54] finished moments before we started [11:55] recording, listening to this whole [11:57] episode of this conversation between [11:59] David French and Allie Beth Stuckey. And [12:01] literally, the title of the episode is [12:02] in all caps, debate, you know, David [12:04] French and and etc. And it's so [12:08] unhelpful because when you are in a [12:11] debate, whether it's a you know, [12:13] competitive college debate, which I did, [12:14] or just a setting for a conversation in [12:17] public. In both cases, the way that the [12:20] conversation is set up forces you into a [12:23] position where you need to give as [12:25] little ground as possible, when a really [12:27] productive conversation would open you [12:29] up to, "Oh, we actually have these [12:30] places of common ground. We agree on [12:32] these things." And they do this at the [12:33] very beginning, right? Where where I [12:35] thought it was really helpful that both [12:37] of them had times when they went, "You [12:38] made a very good point." Or like, "I [12:40] really agree with you on this." Or I But [12:42] the place where I got kind of frustrated [12:44] was [12:45] it you kind of had It was always done in [12:48] a way to set up, "Here's the real [12:50] sticking point, though." And actually, [12:51] the parts where they agreed, I thought [12:53] were much more substantive points than [12:55] some of the places, at least, of [12:56] disagreement. So, I agree with with Sky [12:58] that I think having it as a debate was [13:01] not helpful. But the other thing it made [13:03] me think of when it comes to the way [13:05] that we tend to have discussions about [13:07] political, ethical, theological issues [13:09] today, that tends to be on the internet, [13:11] it tends to not be face-to-face with the [13:12] people we disagree with, or even [13:13] directly to them, even not face-to-face, [13:16] is that you can get away with a lot of [13:19] sharp, pithy, [13:21] like good-sounding little sound bites, [13:24] when you're not face-to-face with [13:25] someone who will say, "Well, actually, [13:26] that's a vast like generalization. [13:28] That's not actually true." Or I didn't [13:30] actually say that. I said it more And I [13:32] actually found instances and I and I, [13:34] you know, this will not surprise anyone [13:36] listening. I overall agreed with David [13:38] French much more than with Allie Beth, [13:40] but I actually found times for both of [13:42] them that I went, "Yeah, I'm actually [13:44] really glad that the other person said I [13:45] wouldn't I didn't say that." Or I didn't [13:47] mean that. And and I think it's [13:49] important to remember that most of us [13:51] who are taking in a lot of our political [13:54] commentary and our theology and all [13:56] those things from the internet are often [13:59] getting the worst forms of those [14:01] arguments. Either the worst forms of the [14:02] things we disagree with, we see them [14:04] caricaturized online, or even the worst [14:06] forms of the arguments that we hold, [14:08] because there isn't a real person who [14:11] genuinely, sincerely disagrees, who can [14:14] hold us to account. There's one moment I [14:16] can think of, and again, I don't want to [14:18] critique David too much. I Like I said, [14:19] I overall really agreed with him. But [14:21] there's a moment when he has this little [14:23] line about how kind of pronouns are the [14:26] things she's focusing so much on. Like, [14:27] you're not focusing on when it comes to [14:29] the to the question of voting for Kamala [14:31] Harris or Donald Trump, you're not [14:32] focusing on foreign policy, you're not [14:34] focusing on how many abortions are [14:35] actually happening, you're focusing on [14:37] the pronoun issue. And she says, "It's [14:39] not really pronouns. It's all this other [14:41] stuff about, you know, medical [14:43] transitioning for teenagers, or it's [14:45] about nonprofits who are being, you [14:47] know, uh pursued legally by the states [14:50] in which they are for not having people [14:51] who are transgender who are allowed to [14:53] work on staff." Anyway, various things. [14:55] I dis I totally agree with David's point [14:58] that people in her camp often go to a [15:01] very narrow question of gender and [15:02] sexuality to trump lots of other [15:04] substantive things. But saying it's [15:06] about pronouns doesn't take seriously [15:09] the argument she's making. ultimately [15:11] agree with him, but I thought it was [15:12] really helpful to have two people [15:15] actually having a conversation with each [15:16] other, so that instead of if David posts [15:18] that on Twitter, "Really, the issue is [15:20] pronouns." It's just a ton of people I [15:22] mean, there's tons of people critiquing [15:23] him, but there's also his side going, [15:25] "Yeah, totally, that's what it is." It's [15:27] much more helpful to go, "I actually [15:29] agree with him that these other [15:30] substantive things are more important, [15:32] but let's weigh them against the thing [15:33] that she's actually saying, instead of a [15:36] kind of quippy little thing that, you [15:37] know, kind of diminishes the point she's [15:39] making." [15:39] >> Yeah, she came in with, I think, three [15:41] topics she wanted to hit him on, and one [15:44] of them was his use of pronouns. So, I I [15:46] think that's, you know, [15:47] >> That's probably what he was referring [15:48] to. But But exactly what he said, it [15:50] would have killed on Twitter, with his [15:52] kind of crowd, with our kind of crowd. [15:53] And I It's like a good, succinct way of [15:56] putting something. But I left and it [15:58] really it that whole conversation was [16:00] making me reflect myself on, how often [16:02] do I find a really kind of smart, like [16:07] pithy way of putting something, and I [16:09] go, "Oh, that's going to really do it." [16:11] >> That really wins the day. That all it [16:13] really does is it gives other people who [16:15] agree with me another sharp, pithy thing [16:17] to say. It doesn't always accurately [16:19] represent what's going on, cuz it's not [16:21] It's not going to go as viral if you [16:23] give the full kind of nuanced account [16:25] actually happening. [16:25] >> I think what this illustrates is a a [16:27] trap that either side can fall into, and [16:30] both frequently do. And that is the [16:32] assumption that [16:33] being right is what makes you righteous. [16:36] Yeah. [16:36] >> And it's easy to be right in 140 [16:38] characters. And it What Do they even [16:40] limit it to 140? Whatever. [16:41] >> 250. 2 something. [16:43] >> It's easier Unless you pay Elon Musk [16:45] eight bucks a month, then it's infinite [16:46] characters. [16:47] >> It's easier [16:48] to posture yourself as right when you [16:50] don't have another actual incarnate [16:52] human being sitting across from you [16:54] that you have to encounter. [16:56] >> Mhm. And when you actually do have to [16:59] encounter a human being, then you [17:00] realize, "Wait a minute, there's a [17:02] reason scripture does not include truth [17:05] or rightness as a fruit of the spirit." [17:08] Everything that's listed as a fruit of [17:09] the spirit is an interpersonal quality. [17:11] Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, [17:13] gentleness, self-control. [17:16] And that's where I think when I read [17:17] some of the comments, that was really [17:18] the breakdown. Is there were a lot of [17:19] people in the comments who wanted to [17:20] say, [17:22] "Well, David's doing this, or David says [17:23] that, or that or that, but the truth is [17:25] this." And they think because they can [17:27] stand up and declare the truth, they're [17:28] on God's side. [17:30] The enemy can stand up and declare the [17:32] truth just as easily. And James talks [17:34] about this. Demons have good doctrine, [17:37] but they are completely apart from the [17:39] the way of God. The way we know the [17:40] spirit of God dwells in us is not by [17:42] declaring the truth, it's by [17:45] interpersonally reflecting kindness and [17:47] gentleness. [17:49] >> a big conflict right now, where you're [17:52] not a Christian because you're not [17:55] declaring the truth loudly. [17:58] >> And I would say, you may well be [17:59] declaring the truth. That is not what [18:01] makes you a Christian. [18:02] >> Right. But if you're not declaring the [18:04] truth loudly, [18:05] you're also not a Christian. Haha. [18:08] >> I think what came out in the parts of [18:10] the interview I looked at is is David [18:12] was declaring, in many cases, the same [18:14] truths that Allie Beth Stuckey believed [18:16] in. He was just insisting on doing it [18:19] with kindness and gentleness and [18:20] respect, all the fruit of the spirit [18:22] parts. Whereas, some of her audience [18:24] were saying in the comments, "Yeah, but [18:25] that doesn't that that's not the time [18:28] for those things, because [18:30] the need is so urgent. We just have to [18:31] proclaim the truth, and to hell with the [18:33] consequences." [18:35] Yeah, it yeah. [18:37] I was going to say something that was [18:38] really good, and then and then it [18:40] evaporated from my brain. [18:43] Um did you see Andrew Walker's rather [18:46] detailed review? [18:48] I glanced at it. [18:49] >> Of the interaction? Honestly, the since [18:52] this [18:54] interview or this debate came out a [18:55] couple days ago, I've spent probably a [18:57] total of 15 minutes on Twitter, which is [18:58] more than I've spent in the last year. [19:00] Yeah. Uh he says, "Watched the [19:02] French-Stuckey debate. My main takeaway, [19:04] the whole debate centered upon a [19:06] truth-emotion continuum. I think Allie [19:09] Beth came out ahead for one reason that [19:11] colors every issue debated. She indexes [19:14] her understanding of emotion and empathy [19:17] on a biblical axis, whereas French [19:19] elevates emotion and empathy to a [19:22] disproportionate degree. So, David [19:25] French is all about his emotions, and [19:27] Allie Beth is about biblical truth. [19:30] Caitlin, care to I I'm so I was like [19:33] really not looking forward to you [19:34] reading someone else's Twitter [19:36] description of this, but I'm so glad you [19:37] did now, because that was the other big [19:39] thing I wanted to talk about was it was [19:42] so clarifying. Obviously, none of their [19:43] conversation about like empathy and [19:45] biblical truth and all of that is new. [19:47] This is like the conversation we have [19:48] been having for a while. But it was [19:50] really clarifying to me in two ways. [19:53] One, [19:54] there can be a tendency from folks of [19:57] the "be wary of empathy" crowd, which [20:00] Alibeth does a great job in that podcast [20:01] of because she's being critiqued by [20:03] someone, doesn't does a good job of [20:05] really describing what she doesn't [20:06] believe. Like empathy's not always wrong [20:09] and toxic empathy is this kind of thing. [20:11] But across like the crowd of people who [20:13] kind of come from that camp, there is a [20:15] tendency to at least rhetorically act as [20:19] though biblical truth is this obvious, [20:23] clear, prior thing that doesn't require [20:27] discernment, deliberation, curiosity. [20:31] And so it's always like emotion is this [20:33] like you know, kind of squishy thing, [20:36] but then there's biblical truth. And [20:37] there's even a moment when she says [20:38] something along the lines of like, "Yes, [20:40] you can have empathy, but it shouldn't [20:41] be untethered from biblical truth." [20:43] Which just sort of assumes you already [20:46] know what's true. Like we're not having [20:48] a conversation about how you discern [20:49] what's true. We're just saying you're [20:51] here's what's true, find a way to square [20:53] that with having some kind of empathy [20:54] for people who are suffering in some [20:56] kind of way. And I think a a truly [20:59] Christian account would be to say we are [21:03] fallen and finite creatures. So we [21:06] should not assume that And she says [21:07] actually I mean I appreciate there was a [21:09] moment in the episode when she says [21:09] like, "I'm fallible. I could be wrong." [21:11] But the rhetoric often doesn't include [21:13] this, this sense that discerning what to [21:16] do in an ethical situation, when you're [21:18] voting for a politician, when you're [21:19] having a conversation about policy, will [21:21] require both searching scriptures, [21:24] knowing that you could interpret [21:25] wrongly, and you need other people to [21:26] help you figure it out, you need the [21:27] Holy Spirit to help you. And it will [21:29] also require learning from your [21:31] environment, which will include your [21:33] emotional responses to things, because [21:35] emotions don't give us absolute truth, [21:36] but they give us data about the world [21:38] and ourselves and and our communities [21:40] very often. And so one thing I just kept [21:42] thinking was like we've not none of this [21:44] conversation really got at, and I think [21:46] David was trying to do it and it didn't [21:47] really come out, was what does it [21:49] actually look like to practically [21:51] deliberate, specifically amongst [21:53] Christians, about something we disagree [21:55] on. The assumption from Alibeth was very [21:56] often like, "Well, this is just what's [21:58] true and we all know that and we don't [21:59] even have to talk about it." And the [22:01] second thing I thought was really [22:02] important is often in this conversation, [22:03] and it only came up a little bit in the [22:04] episode, so I don't want to say that [22:05] this is her position, but it it is often [22:08] something that people will say, the [22:09] assumption when we talk about emotion is [22:12] we usually are talking about, because [22:14] the conversation is around empathy, [22:16] we're talking about sadness or [22:18] compassion or and we don't really [22:21] recognize the fact that a lot of emotion [22:23] is happening that isn't that kind of [22:26] squishy, soft, what often is [22:28] characterized as this like feminine [22:29] compassion. Anger is an emotion. [22:32] >> Thank you. [22:33] >> Disgust is an emotion. [22:35] >> Yes. So when especially, and this [22:37] happens on the right and the left, but [22:38] especially with kind of the gender [22:40] politics right now, it's more often on [22:41] the right, is men in particular [22:44] asserting policies with an undertone of [22:48] anger or disgust or I have I actually [22:50] have, cuz I'm in my mom's office right [22:51] now, an emotion wheel. So anger or [22:54] disgust or frustration or aggression or [22:56] disapproval or like all of that is not [22:59] only emotion that's often motivating a [23:02] policy or or a position, it's very often [23:05] used rhetorically to bring people along [23:07] with you. [23:09] Alibeth does this too. It doesn't it's [23:10] not a bad thing. Everyone's doing it, [23:12] but the kind of mode she gets in when [23:14] she's making her argument is [23:16] rhetorically quite effective and it [23:17] plays on people's emotions. That doesn't [23:20] mean it's wrong. It just means it's [23:22] something that needs to be considered [23:24] when we're thinking about how to reason [23:25] well about something we should do. To [23:26] her point, it should also involve [23:28] searching scriptures, but we should [23:29] recognize that all of these are sources [23:31] of information that we should be [23:34] bringing in, sorting together, [23:35] communally discerning, and depending on [23:37] the Holy Spirit ultimately to guide us. [23:39] >> It's obviously scripture says [23:41] anger can be very sinful. [23:43] Yeah. [23:43] >> And yet people who love anger will often [23:45] justify it by saying, "Well, it's [23:47] righteous anger, cuz I'm angry about the [23:48] things that God's angry about." Okay. [23:51] Well, to use your categorization there, [23:52] Caitlyn, if if I am expressing empathy [23:55] or I'm feeling empathy, why can't I just [23:57] say, "Well, this this one is righteous [23:58] empathy. So it's okay." Yeah. Yeah. [24:01] Yeah. [24:03] It it seems [24:04] that maybe this is another way of [24:06] putting it, that toxic empathy is [24:09] empathy that leads you towards feminine [24:11] emotions, and righteous empathy leads [24:14] you towards masculine emotions. And [24:17] that's the view of the right-wing [24:21] Christian crowd. They view masculine [24:23] emotions as not really being emotions. [24:26] >> Right. That's just what you do when you [24:28] see bad things, you know? You just you [24:31] rrr Rage is okay. [24:33] >> Yeah, rage is okay, cuz it's it's it's [24:35] harnessed to the truth. [24:36] >> Right. I harness my rage to the truth. [24:38] >> why they love citing this the story of [24:40] Jesus flipping the tables in the temple. [24:42] That's not emotion, that's just that's [24:44] just righteous anger. [24:45] >> we're when we're at war with Iran that [24:47] we have two regimes currently that are [24:49] harnessing their emotions to religious [24:52] conviction. [24:54] That you know, I'm looking at the world [24:57] through the proper religious lens, and [24:59] that's why I am the righteous one [25:01] >> Mhm. in in um pursuing my military [25:05] objectives with all due force. Right. [25:08] And I know what time it is, so I know we [25:10] can't play by the normal rules of [25:14] warfare. Okay. [25:16] Fun fun fun. I don't know, should I [25:18] should we not do that sort of thing? Is [25:19] it What what's the forum where like I [25:22] like to actually write my thoughts, cuz [25:25] I can think about them, and maybe even [25:27] do a little research while I'm writing. [25:30] Um but just just an amazing number of [25:33] people are mad at me for not doing [25:36] real-time debates with people on camera. [25:39] But those are people who aren't probably [25:42] part of your audience anyway. Yeah. [25:44] They're they want you to go to their [25:46] people to get pummeled. Yeah, to get [25:49] owned. [25:49] >> Yeah. Just creator of VeggieTales [25:51] destroyed by [25:53] I I I just I mean I [25:56] I don't counsel David French about what [25:57] invitations he says yes or no to. I [25:59] would [25:59] >> I think we should. [26:00] >> I [26:01] I think if somebody came to you or to me [26:03] for that matter or Caitlyn and wanted to [26:05] quote unquote engage in a debate, I [26:07] would love to have an off-the-record, no [26:10] cameras, no microphones in-depth [26:12] conversation with them about things we [26:14] disagree about. [26:15] >> won't do that, you know why they want to [26:17] have the debate. [26:17] >> Exactly. So let's start there. And then [26:19] if we both found that to be really [26:21] helpful and fruitful, maybe we decide to [26:23] record something and put it out. [26:24] >> is like the um [26:27] Cornell West and I'm blanking on his [26:30] name. Um [26:32] Uh Robert George and Cornell West. Like [26:34] they they've gone on like this tour [26:36] that's like based in their friendship, [26:38] showing people that two people with very [26:39] different political positions and views [26:41] can agree. We're increasingly learning [26:42] that some of the things they share are [26:44] actually the most substantive things we [26:45] disagree on in in this country, like [26:48] treating people who we disagree with [26:49] with respect and kindness. And but [26:51] that's [26:52] uh people praised their kind of tour of [26:55] showing that you could have very [26:56] different politics and and, you know, be [26:58] on stage in front of other people and be [27:00] civil and disagree well. I don't think [27:03] enough people recognize that that their [27:04] relationship was nurtured before it was [27:08] on a stage. Right. [27:09] >> So we have to become friends first, and [27:11] then we perform together. We can't just [27:14] do warfare like a fencing match. [27:16] >> Friendship over warfare. That I like [27:18] that. [27:19] But you don't you don't know what time [27:21] it is. [27:22] New Year's resolutions are hard for me [27:24] for at least two reasons. First, because [27:26] forming new habits is just a hard thing [27:28] to do for anybody. But secondly, it's [27:30] hard because the new year starts in the [27:32] middle of winter, the coldest, darkest, [27:34] most miserable time of the year. And I [27:36] struggle to get my carcass out of bed [27:38] and get going in the morning. And when [27:40] my resolutions have to [music] do with [27:41] my health or fitness, that's a real [27:43] problem. That's also why it's important [27:45] for all of us to find easy wins whenever [27:47] possible. [music] [27:48] Simple things we can do for our health [27:50] that don't take a lot of effort, so we [27:52] can stay with them for the long haul. [27:54] AG1 is a great example. 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And thanks to AG1 [28:45] for sponsoring this episode. [music] [28:50] Holy Post is sponsored by Feeding [28:52] America. Every act of change begins with [28:55] [music] a neighbor, with someone saying, [28:57] "We can take care of each other here." [28:59] In food banks and food [music] pantries, [29:01] neighbors pack fresh food and dignity [29:03] into every box, moving food from farms [29:05] to families through Feeding America's [29:07] nationwide network. So when that box [29:09] reaches a home, it carries more than [29:11] food. It carries a promise that together [29:14] we can end hunger. Feeding America, led [29:16] by neighbors. Give now to end hunger at [29:19] feedingamerica.org. [29:22] Can AI be a child of God? Inside [29:25] Anthropic's meeting with Christian [29:27] leaders. Anthropic, one of the leading [29:30] artificial intelligence companies, [29:31] currently valued at 380 billion. These [29:34] companies are have valuations that even [29:37] like 15 years ago we would have thought [29:40] were nonsense. Mhm. Like that's you [29:41] can't be like Dr. Evil throwing out a [29:43] ransom number. [29:44] >> got like four companies now valued at [29:46] more than a trillion dollars. You know, [29:48] more than That most countries GDP. That [29:52] are actually not profitable. [29:54] >> [sighs] [29:54] >> Well, [29:55] it's uh Walmart's one of them. No, I'm [29:57] talking [clears throat] about these tech [29:58] companies like the the AI companies I'm [30:00] not talking about them. [30:00] >> companies are not not profitable, but [30:03] they are changing the world. But [30:04] Anthropic is interesting. They're the [30:06] ones that got in trouble with the [30:07] Department of Defense and Donald Trump [30:09] because they said one of their rules was [30:11] their AI models could not be used for [30:13] mass surveillance or um autonomous [30:17] strikes, military strikes. So, weapons [30:20] that think for themselves and kill [30:22] people. Mhm. And uh that led the the US [30:26] uh current administration to declaring [30:28] them a potential security risk to the [30:30] United States. [30:32] Fun stuff. Anyway, they hosted about 15 [30:35] Christian leaders from Catholic and [30:36] Protestant churches, academia, and the [30:38] business world at the headquarters in [30:40] late March for a two-day summit that [30:42] included discussion sessions and a [30:43] private dinner with senior Anthropic [30:45] researchers. Anthropic staff sought [30:47] advice from the Christian leaders on how [30:49] to steer Claude, that's their main [30:52] model, uh Claude's moral and spiritual [30:54] development as the chatbot. I just don't [30:57] even know what I'm reading. How to [30:59] How to steer their software's moral and [31:01] spiritual development as the chatbot [31:04] reacts to complex and unpredictable [31:06] ethical queries. The wide-ranging [31:08] discussions also covered how the chatbot [31:10] should respond to users who are grieving [31:12] loved ones and whether Claude should be [31:14] considered a quote child of God. [31:16] >> It actually sounds like a baby [31:18] dedication ceremony at a church. [31:20] We need your help raising this child in [31:23] an ethical way to [31:25] towards the flourishing and and love of [31:27] God. And uh that that they all committed [31:30] to do this. Doesn't that sound like what [31:32] it [31:33] Yeah. Yeah. One attendee um who teaches [31:36] AI and technology ethics at Santa Clara [31:38] University, Brian Patrick Green, [31:40] said, "What does it mean to give someone [31:42] a moral formation? How do we make sure [31:44] that Claude behaves itself?" Can we work [31:47] on people first? [31:49] Well, no, it's too late for people cuz [31:51] we're going to drive Claude right into [31:53] If Claude is the collective us, if most [31:56] AI [31:58] chatbots, you know, they they learn [32:00] nothing but things that we've come up [32:02] with. And we've come up with a whole lot [32:04] of crap. Mhm. It's really hard to know [32:07] how this goes well. So, so Anthropic has [32:10] a new model. I don't know if you've read [32:11] about this. Their newest model they've [32:14] realized is uh potentially so dangerous [32:17] that they're currently not allowing the [32:19] public to access it. But it exists. [32:21] >> Yes. And and they've let 40 companies [32:24] start to play around with it. [32:26] >> I'm sure that'll go just fine. Yeah, [32:28] just to get feedback. The US Treasury [32:30] Department had an emergency meeting with [32:33] CEOs of some of the world's biggest [32:35] banks to warn them about this new model [32:39] and what dangers it cuz what it's [32:41] particularly good at, this is why [32:42] everyone's freaking out. It's [32:44] particularly good at finding flaws in [32:47] code that humans would never notice. [32:51] And the concern is [32:53] that in the wrong hands, people will be [32:55] able to hack into places they've never [32:57] been able to before, including the [32:59] banking system, military systems, etc., [33:02] etc. So, we now have a piece of software [33:05] that has the potential to bring down the [33:09] global economy. [33:12] And we're just trying to figure out [33:13] under what circumstances can we let it [33:15] free into the world? [33:17] >> This is the digital equivalent of a [33:19] Chinese wet market. [33:21] >> [laughter] [33:23] >> Or lab. [33:25] Or or lab. [33:26] >> Yeah. We don't know. [33:28] It's it's an [33:30] inevitable that something's going to [33:32] escape Yeah. into the wild. [33:34] >> So, is it So, is it comforting that [33:36] they're asking Christians how to help or [33:38] is it really Here's cuz here's Okay, [33:40] here's the reality. Even if one of these [33:42] companies says, "We're going to make our [33:43] agent moral," [33:45] there'll be another company that says, [33:47] "Uh [33:47] we don't care." [33:48] >> I talked about this with Drew Dick last [33:50] week on on the SkyPod. And here's the [33:52] the the sentence that jumped out to me [33:54] from the article I read about it is [33:56] Anthropic said, "This is a This is a [33:58] quote first in a series of gatherings [34:00] with representatives from different [34:02] religious and philosophical traditions." [34:05] And I'm on one level [34:08] comforted a little bit. [34:09] >> Cuz all religions are the same. [34:10] >> No, no, I'm comforted a little bit that [34:11] they brought together these Christian [34:12] ethicists and theologians to think this [34:14] through. But what's concerning to me is [34:17] when they're going to look at a whole [34:18] bunch of different religious traditions [34:19] and a whole bunch of different [34:20] philosophical traditions, invariably [34:22] some of what they're going to hear are [34:24] going to be ideas that would restrict [34:26] the use of this technology and its [34:28] profitability. But there's going to be [34:30] other philosophical traditions that have [34:32] a much looser parameters. And chances [34:34] are they're going to pick the one that [34:36] allows them to make more money and still [34:37] call themselves ethical and moral. [34:39] Because they're a for-profit business [34:41] that operates with trillions of dollars [34:43] of investment or whatever they're up to [34:44] at this point. And that that concerns [34:47] me. When we as a human species do not [34:49] agree on ethics, we don't agree on what [34:52] a human being is, we don't want to agree [34:53] on what a good life is, we don't agree [34:55] on what morality is, and now you're [34:57] asking us to create an artificial human [34:59] mind essentially Yeah. [35:00] >> and give it moral direction, you're [35:02] going to pick the moral direction that [35:04] fits your priors, which is which one's [35:06] going to make me the most money. [35:07] We had a little freak out because one of [35:10] our grandkids was talking to someone on [35:14] an an iPad and we said, "Who are you [35:17] talking to?" And they confessed it was [35:19] chat GPT. Mhm. You know, and and so this [35:22] the scary thing is So, even if you say [35:24] religions help us guide and shape how [35:28] this interacts with the children of the [35:30] world, like what which religion is it [35:33] going to settle on? What set of values [35:35] is it going to settle on? What's it [35:37] What if if a if a teenager who's [35:40] struggling with something turns to AI [35:43] for advice? [35:44] >> Yeah. [35:45] I mean, we would think long and hard [35:47] about which therapist to have a teenager [35:49] sit down in front of. We will have no [35:51] control over where chat GPT or Claude is [35:55] pulling the advice from in the world of [35:59] global information. [36:00] >> Mhm. [36:01] And I think a truly Christian theology [36:03] would actually want the chatbot to say [36:06] the thing that a company is least likely [36:08] to have it say, which is [36:10] go talk to a real human [36:12] >> Exactly. [laughter] [36:14] Yeah. Okay, what do we do? Sky, help. [36:17] Well, this is this is not a simple [36:19] solution, but I this technology, this [36:21] industry has gotten to the point where [36:24] anything short of significant government [36:25] regulation is is just not going to stop [36:28] it. And and that doesn't make me feel [36:30] any better because I think our current [36:31] government, and I'm not just saying the [36:32] Trump administration, [36:34] the current functioning of our federal [36:36] government is a disaster regardless of [36:38] who's in the White House. [36:40] And we need significant governmental [36:41] reform so that we can actually have a [36:43] government that does what it was [36:45] supposed to do in the first place. Could [36:47] Could AI help us reform the government [36:50] so that the government can reform AI? I [36:52] don't think so, no. [36:54] This is not going well. Caitlin, what do [36:56] we do, Caitlin? Aren't you in [36:58] Washington, DC? Oops. [37:00] I am. I mean, somewhere off the coast of [37:02] Guam. [37:03] I [37:04] >> [laughter] [37:05] >> I I feel like it's usually my job on [37:07] this show to be like optimistic and [37:11] young and like let's do. And I feel the [37:14] least I feel the least optimistic about [37:17] anything than when it comes to AI. I [37:19] just it's really And the thing that [37:22] scares me the most, I agree with Sky [37:23] that we need government regulation in [37:25] part because I just think that's the [37:26] only institution that can exert any kind [37:28] of any kind of restrictions on it even [37:30] though again, I'm pretty pessimistic [37:31] about the ability to do even that. But [37:33] what's really hard is [37:35] and many people much smarter than me [37:37] have made this point, but [37:39] we're not just working upstream of the [37:41] technology, we're working upstream of [37:43] what humans on some level, fallen [37:46] humans, [37:47] want. Like we want some things that are [37:50] very wrong for us. And many of those [37:53] things are made easier or more [37:55] convenient or more accessible by [37:57] technology that ultimately will harm us. [37:59] And it's just really hard to work [38:01] upstream. And we've had this [38:02] conversation so much when it comes to [38:03] the kind of loneliness crisis, how [38:05] isolated we are. Like a lot of it that [38:07] we don't recognize enough is [38:10] on some level people want this. On some [38:12] level people want to talk to chat GPT [38:14] instead of a pastor or a friend or a [38:16] therapist. On some level people want to, [38:19] you know, use dating apps instead of [38:21] meeting someone in person. On some level [38:22] people want to watch a sermon online [38:24] instead of going to. And I don't believe [38:26] that's ultimately like the true desire [38:28] of the human heart or what really [38:29] fulfills us or satisfies us. But we have [38:32] to just come to terms with the fact that [38:33] on some level this fits a desire that we [38:35] have not only in our kind of fallen [38:37] broken selves want, but that we've been [38:39] shaped in for generations. Like we just [38:41] finally can do some of what we've wanted [38:42] the whole time, which is to be [38:44] autonomous, to be, you know, the the [38:46] choosing being that can just pick [38:48] whatever life I want with no [38:49] interference from anyone else. And a lot [38:52] of the AI stuff scares me because I [38:53] think it just it gives us something we [38:55] want that is bad for us. And I don't [38:58] necessarily know what to do about that. [38:59] >> I I mean, I I want to binge Duncan [39:03] Donuts Munchkins all day long, but I [39:05] won't live another 2 years if I did [39:07] that. And it would clog my arteries [39:10] really quickly. [39:10] >> I'm more of a Krispy Kreme guy. Are you? [39:12] Yeah. Those those feel like [39:15] Yeah. Oh, to keep Duncan and Krispy [39:17] Kreme? Are you joking? [39:20] Wait, you're Are you more Krispy Kreme [39:21] or Duncan Donuts? 100% 100% Krispy [39:24] Kreme. [39:25] Wow. Thank you. [39:26] >> Duncan is like the least good donut. [39:28] >> I I'm not I'm not here to rank donuts. [39:31] I'm not here to rank donuts. I Okay. I I [39:33] go to Duncan all the time, but not for [39:34] the I I I'm ready to reveal this. I am [39:37] here to rank donuts. That's why I [39:39] started the podcast 13 years ago was to [39:42] rank donuts. I actually prefer [39:44] >> episode. Oh, there's a there's a Spanish [39:47] grocery store right by my office that [39:49] makes the best yeast ring donuts. [39:51] They're so much better. What's a yeast [39:53] ring donut? It's a kind of donut. [39:55] >> Oh. That That sounds like a medical [39:57] condition. This [laughter] is No, this [39:58] is a conversation that Phil and I need [40:00] to have. You're going to get the cat. [40:01] Dude, you are going to get the cat. I'm [40:04] confused how Sky is so smart and doesn't [40:06] know what a yeast ring donut is. [40:07] >> know. I'm sorry. I can't know [40:08] everything. [40:09] >> donuts I'm chosen to fill my mind with [40:11] scripture. [40:12] >> [laughter] [40:13] >> Well, Okay, is hurry the great enemy of [40:16] spiritual life? And perhaps perhaps this [40:18] is some good news and perhaps we're [40:21] beginning to see humanity say, "I don't [40:24] like the way things are going." This is [40:26] in the Atlantic written by Nancy [40:27] Willecki and uh she got to know John [40:30] Mark Comer. We all know John Mark Comer. [40:32] >> Yeah, he's a friend. He's been on the [40:33] show [40:34] >> I'm proud to say I edited one of his [40:35] books. [40:37] My gosh, which one? Um the um the God [40:40] has a name. Oh, yeah, that's the one [40:41] that didn't sell at all, isn't it? [40:43] >> Probably. Okay. [40:44] Well, nice try. [40:46] Uh he wrote one of his books the [40:49] the um The ruthless elimination of [40:51] hurry? [40:52] >> Yes, he was on he was on like 5 years [40:54] ago talking about the ruthless [40:56] elimination of hurry his and practicing [40:58] the way is his newest one. Anyhow, Nancy [41:01] Willecki got to know him writing for the [41:04] Atlantic and she actually decided [41:06] apparently she's a believer. She decided [41:09] she would try she she's a 27-year-old [41:13] living in New York City um with lots of [41:15] people that are burnt out millennials [41:17] that are burnt out. So she said, "I am [41:19] going to try to actually follow what [41:21] you're preaching John Mark Comer." Um [41:24] and she said, "I I was listening to him [41:26] and I wondered could Comer's practices [41:28] actually bring people closer to God?" So [41:31] she decided to try them out. And uh [41:34] she said it went so well she actually [41:37] doesn't want to give up some of those [41:39] practices except fasting which she said [41:41] annoyed her. [41:43] >> [laughter] [41:43] >> She didn't like that. Um she said, "I'm [41:46] surprised I'm surprised though." Is [41:49] there a list of the some of the [41:50] practices in this article somewhere? I'm [41:52] trying to [41:54] Well, I can tell you I did our small [41:55] group did the practicing the way [41:57] >> Oh, you did? [41:57] >> book. Yeah, yeah. What are the What are [41:59] the practices of the way? [42:01] >> Yes, Sabbath. And screen you know, [42:02] engaging scripture and prayer. [42:04] >> And like but like a screen time Sabbath [42:06] too like phone Sabbath. Yeah. Yeah. That [42:08] that yeah. Rest. [42:10] Sabbath kind of thing. Um fasting. [42:13] I'm trying to remember some of the [42:14] others. Oh, confession. Oh. Mhm. I don't [42:18] like this already. [42:20] >> [laughter] [42:20] >> Can I confess to a chatbot? [42:23] Uh I don't think that counts. [42:24] >> Okay. But that might be a child of God. [42:26] We're not sure yet. [42:27] >> I am. [42:27] >> The jury's still out. Might be a child [42:29] of God. [42:31] Um she said, "I wondered whether I could [42:33] adhere to his disciplines and if so how [42:35] they might affect my faith." [42:36] >> how they're his disciplines. [42:38] >> His disciplines, yes. Like there's no [42:39] background for 2,000 years of the church [42:41] doing this. [42:43] >> he invented Lent. Have you seen that? [42:45] >> No. [laughter] [42:46] I thought you were going to say invented [42:47] Lent. [42:47] >> show [42:48] He was on the Today show being like, [42:49] "You should really consider giving [42:50] something up for 40 days before Easter." [42:52] And everyone was like, "Try Mark [42:53] Wahlberg's challenge." [laughter] Oh my [42:55] gosh. We have to brand every spiritual [42:57] practice now. [42:58] >> "For the past 6 months I've tried to [42:59] structure my life around practicing the [43:01] way's nine core habits. I'd wake up [43:03] early to spend an hour alone at the [43:05] window next to my fire escape reading [43:07] scripture and praying. This was a major [43:09] upgrade from checking my phone first [43:10] thing in the morning. Once a week I'd [43:12] observe the Sabbath, put away my [43:14] screens, do some form of worship, revel [43:16] in the fact that I could do nothing for [43:18] a day and God would keep the universe [43:19] going. As part of the service practice I [43:22] volunteered at a soup kitchen once a [43:24] month and started carrying food with me [43:25] when I walked around the city in case [43:27] people I passed looked hungry." [43:29] Um [43:30] said, "I didn't like navigating modern [43:32] life with no phone for 1 day a week. [43:35] Without Google Maps I'd get lost. [43:37] Without texting every meet up with [43:39] friends felt like a high stakes [43:40] rendezvous." And although sometimes I'd [43:42] have a moment or two of transcendence on [43:44] my weekly fasting day for the most part [43:46] I was just hungry. But she she concludes [43:48] says, "I was surprised though by how [43:49] much these practices have become central [43:51] to my life not because I think I will be [43:53] smote if I don't do them but because it [43:56] turns out I like them." Huh. She says, [43:59] "The theory is that to become more [44:01] Christ-like you have to find more ways [44:03] to literally live like Christ." [44:05] Huh. Mhm. So this is someone in the [44:08] Atlantic promoting following Jesus as a [44:11] as a hipster New York [44:14] >> [laughter] [44:15] >> millennial experiment. What's the world [44:17] coming to? I I think the world is coming [44:19] to the realization that a completely [44:21] self-defined life of digital secularism [44:24] is really exhausting. [44:27] Yep. Yes. Right? So people what [44:29] secularism says is that you should [44:31] disconnect from any prior tradition, [44:34] religion, or ancestry and completely [44:37] define for yourself who you are, what [44:39] you think, what you believe. But when [44:40] you add the digital component into that [44:42] it means you have to do that [44:44] over and over and over again every [44:45] moment of every day with everything [44:47] you're engaging online all the time. [44:48] >> Mhm. Open to the scrutiny of everyone [44:51] who's watching you do it. That's right. [44:52] And so John Mark comes along with his [44:56] very old Christian message of saying [44:58] actually there is a tradition that can [44:59] give you practices and a sense of [45:02] purpose and meaning and value and [45:04] connection that is not digital, that is [45:06] not [45:07] constantly playing to this huge audience [45:09] all the time and you can ground yourself [45:12] in something other than the ephemeral [45:14] realities of digital existence. And that [45:16] to an exhausted generation is really [45:18] appealing. Now the question and I I know [45:19] people are critical of him at times. I [45:21] think the question is [45:22] will the people who engage in these [45:23] practices because they're exhausted [45:26] actually find communion and root [45:27] themselves [45:29] in Jesus? [45:30] >> Right. Right. Or will they Does it lead [45:31] you to Christian community? [45:33] >> And I I I don't fault him for meeting [45:35] people where they are at in their [45:36] exhaustion. Um I just hope that as they [45:39] do engage these practices and do find [45:41] them to be beneficial compared to the [45:43] alternative of digital secularism that [45:45] they they have an encounter with and [45:47] deeply commune with Christ in the [45:49] process. Right. Right. So we have we [45:52] have stories about the Catholic Church [45:55] growing in popularity [45:57] partly for not meeting people where [45:59] they're at. [46:00] >> Well, I know I think it's the same thing [46:01] though because it's people who are [46:03] exhausted from digital secularity. Okay. [46:05] >> Okay. They want They want They want [46:07] [clears throat] an otherliness. Yeah, [46:08] the church comes along and says not only [46:10] is this going to be incarnate. It's [46:11] sacrament that you can touch and taste [46:13] and smell and engage. It's also rooted [46:16] in old. So you don't have to make all [46:18] the infinite decisions every day for who [46:20] you are and what you think. Here's a [46:21] whole tradition and a whole background [46:23] and a whole church that can answer many [46:25] of those questions for you and give you [46:27] the framework for your life. [46:28] >> Yeah. [46:29] So okay, I have a thought. If I [46:32] decided to do this and live [46:36] according to the way of John Mark Comer [46:39] following in his footsteps. As he [46:40] follows Jesus hopefully, yes. [46:42] >> Yes. [46:43] And and I filmed [snorts] the whole [46:44] thing, think how much content I would [46:46] get. [46:46] >> Oh, amazing. [46:47] >> Wow. [46:48] >> That could be big. [46:49] Could do a whole 'nother show. [46:51] >> That's amazing. I bet he'd ask you to [46:53] get off Twitter. [46:55] Well, okay, I wouldn't tweet it but I [46:57] would post it on Instagram and Facebook. [46:59] >> I'm very pro this if it Okay, any last [47:01] thoughts? Caitlyn Chess from an [47:03] undisclosed secure location. [47:06] I I agree with Sky that the question is [47:09] how much do how much does the the kind [47:12] of popularity of these practices [47:14] translate into both as Kevin DeYoung [47:17] says in the Atlantic article faith in [47:19] God who actually like has done things in [47:22] history and asks you to to participate [47:24] in the story that he is writing. But [47:26] also that how much it leads people into [47:28] community. That's an open question. Um [47:30] one of my favorite reviews of John Mark [47:32] Comer and I've I've read some of his [47:33] books. I know a ton of people who love [47:36] him and have read his books and use the [47:38] practicing the way stuff in their church [47:39] and their community. [47:40] But one of my favorite kind of reads on [47:42] him is is Brad East wrote a review of a [47:45] couple of his books in Christianity [47:46] Today quite a while ago and he's a [47:48] professor who was noticing that his [47:50] students were reading all these books [47:51] and he kind of went in with a skeptical [47:53] attitude cuz he's you know, serious [47:54] theologian and these books look very hip [47:56] and he was surprised at how good they [47:58] were. But his his one kind of criticism [48:00] had a great line towards the end of the [48:01] piece where he said, you know, basically [48:03] does some of this ask you to be a [48:05] spiritual Navy SEAL? Like you have to do [48:08] all of this. Like the practices are [48:10] really great and and John Mark Comer is [48:12] is grace-filled. Like he's not saying as [48:15] she says in the article like I'll be [48:16] smote if I don't do this. [48:17] But there is a sense in which he's he's [48:20] bringing this really important as Sky [48:22] says ancient um set of ideas from [48:25] Christianity into a very spiritual [48:28] marketplace kind of world where we think [48:30] we can kind of pick and choose the [48:32] practices we want. We can be [48:33] disconnected from community. We can We [48:35] can be disconnected from any kind of [48:36] doctrine. [48:37] But I also think the kinds of practices [48:40] that he's asking people to take on are [48:42] practices that for maybe a little while [48:44] you could do without any reason for [48:46] doing them and they might make your life [48:47] better and you might But quite a few of [48:49] them as she points out in the article [48:51] will start to ask things of you that [48:53] won't make sense to you if they're not [48:55] connected to actual Christian belief. [48:57] Resting 1 day a week if this life is all [49:00] there is and it's just about getting the [49:02] amount of money and pleasure and and and [49:04] satisfaction that you can get out of it. [49:06] Resting for a day when you're you know, [49:08] trying to make partner at your law firm [49:09] doesn't make any sense unless there's a [49:11] broader story in which humans were meant [49:14] for a different kind of life and we are [49:16] promised a different kind of future. [49:18] Using your money in different ways. [49:19] Using your phone like all the the [49:20] conversation we've had about technology. [49:22] None of that makes sense apart from a [49:24] from a story that says humans were made [49:26] good and part of that goodness was our [49:28] finitude and we also cannot save [49:30] ourselves. We are dependent on a God who [49:33] loved us so much that he became human [49:35] and died a death on a cross and rose [49:37] from the dead and promises us that we [49:39] are awaiting the resurrection of our own [49:41] bodies in the life of the world to come. [49:43] That's a story that suddenly might be [49:45] really appealing to you. If you've been [49:47] practicing practices that you can tell [49:49] are good for you, but you reach the [49:50] limit of of them making sense out of the [49:53] world view that you have out of the [49:54] sense of what you think it means to be [49:55] human. [49:57] I I want to applaud the popularity of [49:58] this for maybe putting people in a [50:00] position where they go, maybe it's not [50:02] just the habits and rhythms of my life [50:03] that have been wrong. Maybe I've [50:05] believed wrongly about what makes a good [50:07] human life and what's ultimately true. [50:08] And who do I know that I can ask about [50:10] that? Well, this guy John Mark Comer is [50:11] a pastor, maybe I can find a church. And [50:14] the more that we can receive those folks [50:17] with with our own curiosity about them [50:19] and with our own compassion and and and [50:22] empathy, the better the church will be. [50:25] Okay, then. [50:26] Yeah, mhm. I might read his [50:29] his book about hurry. I never I haven't [50:32] read any of his books cuz I've been too [50:33] busy. I just who has time? [50:36] >> They're they're accessible reads. [50:38] >> Oh, good. I'm glad to hear that. Okay, [50:40] everybody. We didn't even talk about [50:42] Pete Hegseth's Pulp Fiction prayer and I [50:45] know you were all excited about that. [50:46] Maybe next week or maybe never cuz it's [50:49] just nuts like so much of what's going [50:51] on these days. [50:53] Uh go to Holy Post .com/plus [50:56] and see all the cool stuff that Sky and [50:59] Caitlyn and Esau are making and putting [51:01] out almost every day. There's lots of [51:02] stuff there. And [51:04] um [51:05] When are we Oh, you can't go to Atlanta [51:07] to see us? [51:08] >> Well, it's tonight. It's tonight as you [51:09] listen to this. As you listen to this, [51:12] we we're in Atlanta tonight for a live [51:16] event. And go to where to find out about [51:19] it. [51:19] >> holypost.com/events [51:21] It's with Lecrae. You left off the [51:23] biggest [51:23] >> Lecrae. It's with Lecrae. Okay, can we [51:26] get John Mark Comer in last minute? [51:28] >> No, he's he's in California. You want to [51:29] fly him in? We can fly him in. That [51:31] could work. [51:32] Okay. [51:33] Thanks, everybody. We'll see you next [51:34] time. Bye. [51:36] Train up a child in the way he should go [51:38] and when he's old, he will not depart [51:40] from it. That's Proverbs 22:6 from the [51:43] King James Version. No doubt, if you [51:45] grew up with an American Evangelicalism, [51:47] you're familiar with that verse. [music] [51:49] Rather than a bit of practical wisdom, [51:51] many Evangelicals have clung to it as an [51:53] indisputable promise of God. But if [51:56] that's true and your child grows up and [51:58] does depart [music] from the way you [52:00] think he should go, you only have two [52:02] options. Either you must conclude that [52:04] God didn't keep his promise or you [52:07] failed as a parent and didn't [52:09] sufficiently train him up in the right [52:11] way. [52:12] My guest today spent years diving into [52:14] all the books and curricula that pushes [52:16] this formulaic, guilt-inducing approach [52:19] to parenting [52:20] >> [music] [52:20] >> starting all the way back in the 1970s. [52:22] The outcome of that research is their [52:24] new book, The Myth of Good Christian [52:27] Parenting: How False Promises Betrayed a [52:29] Generation of Evangelical Families. The [52:32] book is co-authored by Marisa Franks [52:34] Burton and my guest today, Kelsey Kramer [52:37] McGinnis. [52:38] As you'll hear in the interview, I [52:39] really really love this [music] book, [52:41] but not because it just exposes the [52:43] terrible theology that fueled a lot of [52:45] the parenting [music] advice that I [52:46] heard growing up, but because it also [52:48] explains so much of what we're seeing in [52:50] the American [music] church today way [52:52] beyond just parenting. Things like the [52:54] attraction to simple good and evil [52:56] explanations for complicated issues and [52:59] why so many Evangelicals are comfortable [53:01] with authoritarian leadership both in [53:03] their churches and now in the [53:04] government. So, I I really can't [53:06] recommend this book enough whether [53:07] [music] or not you grew up with an [53:09] Evangelicalism or are just trying to [53:10] raise kids yourself. [53:12] Kelsey Kramer McGinnis is an adjunct [53:14] professor at Grand View University in [53:17] Des Moines, Iowa and a correspondent [53:18] [music] [53:19] for Christianity Today writing about [53:21] worship practices in the American [53:22] Christian subculture. [music] [53:24] She previously worked at the University [53:26] of Iowa Center for Human Rights. Here is [53:28] my conversation with Kelsey Kramer [53:30] McGinnis. [53:35] Kelsey Kramer McGinnis, welcome to The [53:36] Holy Post. [53:37] Thanks for having me. All right. Well, [53:39] first of all, congratulations on the [53:40] book. Uh [53:41] you and your co-author, Marisa Bert [53:43] Franks Bert. Um [53:45] what I [53:46] I saw this book come across our office [53:49] and I I saw the title. I was like, oh, [53:50] this could be good. [53:52] And then I read it and it was really [53:54] good. So, I can't recommend it enough. [53:57] The Myth of Good Christian Parenting. Um [54:00] let's start with this. Just some of the [54:01] history. Explain the massive growth in [54:05] Christian parenting books or maybe [54:07] parenting books in general that occurred [54:09] in the 1980s when I was a kid. [54:12] >> [snorts] [54:12] >> Yeah. [54:13] >> What triggered all of that? Yeah, I [54:15] mean, there have always been Christian [54:16] parenting books. I mean, for for [54:18] centuries people have sort of gone to [54:20] clergy for parenting advice as you would [54:22] imagine. [54:23] >> Um but a lot a lot changed in the [54:25] mid-20th century, right? So, if you [54:27] think about um what Billy Graham did for [54:30] evangelism and mass media, uh [54:34] what happened with Christian parenting [54:36] books and literature and media kind of [54:38] followed right on the heels of that. So, [54:40] we start our history in this book in [54:43] 1970 because that's the year James [54:45] Dobson publishes Dare to Discipline, [54:48] which we put as kind of the marker of [54:50] the beginning of the growth of the [54:53] Christian parenting book empire that we [54:55] have today that was unique from what [54:58] came before. If you read the Christian [54:59] parenting books that came before, [55:01] they're either, you know, very Victorian [55:03] or in many cases are just kind of [55:05] boring. Um but because of the political [55:09] moment in [snorts] the early '70s, you [55:11] know, coming right off the end of the [55:12] '60s, you know, [55:14] social and political turmoil, a lot of [55:17] panic on the right about the state of [55:18] American culture and about the youth, uh [55:22] James Dobson sort of met that moment [55:24] with Dare to Discipline and proved that [55:26] there was this [55:27] market for Christian parenting books [55:30] that spoke specifically to the fears of [55:34] conservative Christian parents in a [55:36] unique way that kind of met their alarm [55:38] level and it was really really [55:40] appealing. [55:40] >> Yeah, okay. Th- This is important. [55:43] I'm sure there's a lot of our audience [55:44] who are not old enough to remember this [55:45] era, although I certainly am. Um [55:48] the 1960s saw the rise of the sort of [55:51] the the youth subculture, counterculture [55:53] with Right. Woodstock and hippies and [55:55] the anti-Vietnam movement and then a lot [55:57] of drug use and there's just a lot of [56:00] social upheaval. So, along comes James [56:02] Dobson and a number of other folks Mhm. [56:04] and and their argument is pretty simple. [56:07] And that is this whole rebellious youth [56:09] movement is the product of bad [56:11] parenting. [56:12] And that if you just raise your kids the [56:14] right way, if you raise them God's way, [56:16] you can avoid all of these challenges [56:19] when they reach adolescence or young [56:21] adulthood. [56:22] And for a generation who was watching [56:24] America change rapidly in a direction [56:27] that they didn't like, that felt like [56:30] salvation. It was it was a hugely [56:32] marketable message. You cite a statistic [56:34] in the book [56:36] that in 1997 there were five times as [56:38] many parenting books published as in [56:41] 1975. [56:42] So, this that's I was born in '76. So, [56:44] like this is my youth, the '80s and '90s [56:47] and it was everywhere. I just assumed [56:50] this had always been the case, but you [56:52] can see why it was the direct um [56:54] outshoot of the of the 1960s cultural [56:56] upheaval. [56:57] Um talk about how the messaging of these [57:00] books [57:01] was congruent with with prosperity [57:03] gospel theology cuz I think that's a [57:05] connection a lot of people don't often [57:07] see, but you you address it very early [57:09] in the book. [57:11] Yeah, there really is this drive toward [57:14] pushing parents to believe that if they [57:18] get it right, they will be rewarded with [57:20] a good family. And they'll, you know, [57:22] these books tell you what a good family [57:24] is, right? They're well-behaved [57:25] children. They're In some cases you get [57:27] promises of things like a generational [57:29] legacy. But you you get these massive [57:32] promises that make parents feel like [57:37] they have more control than they [57:38] actually do or sort of encourage parents [57:40] to see themselves as having a lot of [57:42] control [57:43] and to try to exercise that control and [57:46] authority. [57:47] And that that meets this moment of [57:50] panic. And I mean, parents have always [57:51] been nervous. It's always been easy to [57:54] sell advice to parents. [57:56] Uh but that these these promises prey on [58:00] that kind of insecurity of Christian [58:02] parents. And [58:04] this is also coinciding with the [58:05] beginning of the decline, not even the [58:07] beginning, but the the decline of the [58:08] mainline, right? There's a lot of panic [58:10] about young people not wanting to come [58:12] to church. [58:13] People are being pushed to find ways to [58:16] keep their children in the fold. And one [58:19] way that these books [58:21] try to encourage parents to do that is [58:22] by saying, you you can do it. You can do [58:25] it, good Christian parent. If you do [58:26] this the right way, you will get that [58:28] outcome. You will help, you know, bring [58:31] people back into the fold of the church. [58:33] And in some cases, like in the case of [58:34] James Dobson, there's even these [58:36] promises like, we will right the ship of [58:37] American culture by raising a generation [58:40] of faithful, well-behaved children. [58:43] >> Yeah, I I I want to get into the how [58:44] this fits into the larger culture war [58:46] stuff and politics in a minute. But to [58:48] focus again on this this these promises [58:50] that are that are given, um [58:53] early in the book and page five, you [58:54] quote Growing Kids God's Way, which was [58:57] a very popular curriculum. [58:59] Yeah. And it said this, God [59:01] pre-programmed all factors for success [59:03] into his divine plan. As with all [59:06] matters discussed in scripture, if you [59:07] violate the principles, you forfeit the [59:09] blessings. Mhm. When you embrace his [59:12] commandments, the blessings of joy and [59:14] fulfillment will be yours. [59:16] I mean, that's prosperity gospel. It [59:18] >> Yes. It it is it [59:20] not only communicates to parents that [59:22] you have an enormous amount of control [59:24] if you just follow the right principles. [59:26] Yes. It also reduces God into some kind [59:29] of divine vending machine that [snorts] [59:31] if if you put the right coins in, you [59:34] get the outcome guaranteed. This is what [59:36] every prosperity preacher says. But [59:38] they're applying it to what many of us [59:41] are most fearful about, and it's the [59:43] thing we find most precious in the [59:44] world, which is our children. So, it [59:47] Do you think Let me ask you this, and [59:49] you don't quite get into this in the [59:50] book, but I'm just curious having all [59:52] the surveying all the literature that [59:54] you did from this era. [59:56] Do you get a sense that these authors [59:58] were self-aware enough to realize what [60:00] they were doing? [60:01] Or [60:02] were they genuine in their view that [60:04] this is how the universe works and how [60:07] God works? [60:11] I think Well, I should say I shouldn't [60:13] say I think. I [60:15] I try to assume that they were all [60:17] genuine in what that they all truly [60:19] believed what they were writing. Partly [60:21] because I can't know Sure. whether they [60:24] were sort of exaggerating their own [60:25] belief or not. [60:28] But I I do think that many of them were [60:31] quite earnest. And [60:35] whether that earnestness is sort of [60:36] removed from reality, I think we can [60:38] obviously talk about, cuz obviously [60:39] these people didn't have perfect [60:40] children either. But they must have [60:43] believed on some level that the perfect [60:45] parent who is perfectly applying [60:46] scripture would get a perfect result. [60:48] Like that that really does seem to be [60:50] the way of thinking. And that quote that [60:52] you read from Did you Did you read Baby [60:54] Wise, by the way? Was that the book that [60:55] was popular when you No, you okay. I [60:57] honestly, my wife and I read very few [61:00] Christian parenting books. We relied far [61:02] more on incarnate community for our [61:04] wisdom and advice, cuz I found a lot of [61:06] them to be nauseating. [61:08] >> [laughter] [61:08] >> I'm glad for you. [61:10] And your kids. Um but but yeah, they, [61:14] you know, those promises also treat [61:16] children like little machines. I think [61:18] one thing that I found really disturbing [61:19] about a lot of these books was that they [61:21] treated children like little machines or [61:23] computers to be programmed. And that's [61:27] also disturbing to me. That kind of [61:28] wonder, is this really how they saw [61:30] their children or how they wanted [61:32] parents to see their children. And [61:34] again, I try not to speculate too much [61:36] about the motivations or the inner [61:38] beliefs of the people writing this. You [61:40] know, the nice thing about writing a [61:41] book like this where we are examining [61:42] the books is I can say, well, regardless [61:45] of whether they were true believers, [61:46] here's what they wrote. And some of [61:47] these books sold millions of copies. So [61:51] if we take them at their word, this is [61:53] and so and if someone picked it up and [61:54] earnestly was trying to practice what [61:57] was in this book, here is what they got. [61:59] Yeah, you You mentioned late in the book [62:01] that many of the most popular parenting [62:03] books from this era were written by [62:05] these authors when their children were [62:07] very young. So, this is fascinating. [62:10] Many of the popular Christian parenting [62:11] resources were written by young parents. [62:13] James Dobson wrote Dare to Discipline [62:15] when he had a preschooler and a toddler [62:16] at home. Ginger Hubbard had elementary [62:19] age children. Larry Tomczak had a [62:20] toddler. And Bill Gothard had no [62:22] children at all. So, [62:25] I don't know. I felt like an expert [62:26] parent when my kids were four. [62:28] Changes a little bit when they're 14 or [62:30] 24, but um [62:32] yeah, I mean, it it it's [62:35] you have a whole section here where you [62:37] talk about the dehumanizing of children [62:39] where they just are treated like pets or [62:41] robots or programmable things. [62:43] And to to take out their autonomy and [62:45] the mystery of just being a human, [62:48] um [62:49] permeates the stuff. But this idea that [62:51] if I just follow the right principles, [62:53] I'm guaranteed the right outcome [62:56] is a is a great promise to attract an [62:57] audience, to sell a book, to sell a [62:59] seminar, whatever might be. But the same [63:01] logic is also used to credentialize [63:03] those who are selling the books. And [63:04] then So, page 83, you cite a quote from [63:08] Canon Press about Douglas Wilson. Doug [63:10] Wilson is very well known today because [63:12] he's one of the leading voices of the [63:14] Christian nationalist movement. And he's [63:16] presented a lot of parenting advice. And [63:19] his own outlet said, "Pastor Wilson's [63:21] family hasn't had a single apostasy [63:23] across four generations or one black [63:26] sheep on the outskirts of orthodox [63:28] biblical Christianity." In other words, [63:30] >> Yes. you can trust his principles [63:31] because they've worked for four [63:32] generations, you'll get the same [63:34] outcome, too. [63:36] Um I [63:38] I I can't I've never been able to fully [63:39] reconcile this [63:41] attitude, [63:43] especially coming from highly reformed [63:45] people who believe in the sovereignty of [63:47] God, [63:48] to say that if you apply these [63:50] principles, God is obligated to bless [63:52] you with the outcome you want when [63:53] there's so much in the Bible, I mean, [63:55] just the book of Job alone should be [63:58] evidence or the teachings of Jesus on [64:00] numerous passages like Mark [64:02] John chapter 9 with the man born blind [64:04] where [64:04] he refutes this whole idea that if you [64:06] just do the right thing, you get the [64:07] right outcome. But so many people, [64:10] even from reformed traditions who should [64:12] be heavy on the sovereignty of God, say, [64:14] "No, no, no, we can control the outcome [64:16] through our behavior." It just seems [64:17] completely contradictory. [64:19] Yes. [64:19] >> But a great marketing strategy. Yes, a [64:21] great marketing strategy. That quote [64:23] always kills me. And it it is [64:25] interesting the the way this shows up in [64:27] reformed spaces. It's sort of like proof [64:29] of concept kind of thing there, you [64:31] know? It's sort of this is proof that we [64:33] have been doing it right and are doing [64:34] it right and will continue to do it [64:36] right. I was just having a conversation [64:38] with someone who experienced these kinds [64:39] of teachings, but in the context of [64:41] Pentecostal charismatic Christianity, [64:43] like Latter Rain [64:45] um denominations. And we were talking [64:47] about the contrast between how this gets [64:49] articulated in the reformed places [64:51] versus the charismatic places. And in [64:53] these charismatic places, you do have [64:56] differently twisted rhetoric where it is [64:59] more understood that parents do have [65:01] some control over the blessings of God [65:04] or that that the prayer of a good [65:06] parent, the practice of a good parent [65:07] can move the spirit. You have this kind [65:09] of agency. Um and and for some parents [65:13] in that space, [65:14] that kind of pressure was like, I I need [65:16] to do more. I need to do more. I need to [65:18] do more. I'm not connected to the Holy [65:20] Spirit enough. I need to be more and [65:22] more connected. [65:24] It is really different. The the in in [65:26] the reformed spaces, but it does the [65:28] same thing in effect. [65:30] >> Mhm. It's it's so strange. And [65:32] and I I I think a lot about that, the [65:34] ways that these ideas get twisted sort [65:36] of for different theologies of the [65:38] sovereignty of God or different [65:39] theologies of um what it is that causes [65:44] God to grant something. And and it's not [65:47] consistent across these resources. I'll [65:49] say one You know, there are many things [65:50] that are not consistent across these [65:52] resources. There is not a consistent [65:54] theology of sin. There is not a [65:55] consistent theology of the way God moves [65:58] in families, you know. Yeah, and but [66:00] what is consistent is they all rely on [66:02] the fear of parents and that longing for [66:04] control. Yes. Give me Give me the [66:07] assurance that my kids are going to be [66:08] okay. Yes. Which we can all relate to. [66:11] Okay, let's let's go back to how does [66:13] this relate to the larger political [66:15] climate in that era and the culture war [66:17] climate? [66:18] One of the things you guys do a [66:19] wonderful job of articulating early on [66:20] in the book as you're sort of diagnosing [66:23] the various messages of these curricula [66:25] in that era [66:27] is and and this won't be unfamiliar to [66:28] some of our listeners, the umbrella of [66:30] authority. [66:31] Right. Bill Gothard was well known for [66:33] this, but it was adapted by many other [66:35] folks. [66:36] That there is a very clear hierarchy and [66:39] structure to the family. [66:42] And that the role of a of mother or a [66:44] father or a child is very defined. And [66:47] everyone, regardless of your [66:49] individuality or your personality or [66:50] your gifts, you're you are created by [66:53] God to occupy a certain role. And you [66:55] must stay within that role, which gets [66:57] back to your stripping children of their [66:59] individuality and autonomy and things [67:00] like that. Explain though how this [67:02] notion of the umbrella of authority or [67:05] the structure [67:06] fits within the bigger ecosystem of this [67:09] era and what people were worried about. [67:11] Mhm. Yeah, this this question of [67:15] parental authority in general as like a [67:17] first principle of Christian parenting [67:18] comes up a lot. And not just for James [67:21] Dobson. So, there was another book that [67:23] came out in 1970 called The Christian [67:24] Family by Larry Christenson. Christenson [67:26] was a charismatic Lutheran. And his [67:29] book, The Christian Family, was [67:30] incredibly popular as well. It was just [67:32] sort of overshadowed by Dare to [67:34] Discipline. And he talks a ton about the [67:37] structure [67:38] of the family and the importance of [67:41] parental authority. Kind of If you can [67:42] get that right, if you can establish [67:44] parental authority as the first [67:45] principle of your household, everything [67:47] else falls into place. God at the top, [67:50] father, mother, children. Uh sometimes [67:53] church life is factored in somewhere, [67:54] but usually this is nuclear family. And [67:56] if you can get that right, if you can [67:58] instill [68:00] obedience and respect from children to [68:02] parents, [68:03] submission and respect from wife to [68:05] husband, everything else will fall into [68:07] place. And this shows up even in places [68:10] that are kind of surprising. I mean, I [68:12] don't think of Chuck Swindoll as a [68:14] particularly polemical person, right? [68:16] He's sort of a popular evangelical [68:18] figure. But in his book, The Strong [68:20] Family, he really comes down on parental [68:24] authority. Like you as the parent, you [68:25] have to pick the principle over the [68:27] person. This means your your authority [68:29] is the first thing in the household. You [68:30] You have a child, a teenager who is [68:33] pushing and pushing and rebelling, [68:35] you need to pick the principle over the [68:37] person. [68:37] >> When I read that part of the book, I was [68:39] really surprised. And Yeah. And even to [68:41] the point where he's calling parents to [68:43] cut off your relationship with your [68:45] teenager or young adult child if they're [68:47] not obedient to you. I'm like, "Wow, [68:50] that's pretty That's pretty harsh." [68:53] Yeah, and and the reason why I bring up [68:55] Larry Christenson in The Christian [68:56] Family is because one of the endorsers [68:58] of that book, who is also quoted a lot [69:00] in there, is um [69:02] uh Bruce Wilkerson, the author of The [69:04] Cross and the Switchblade. And for for [69:07] listeners who aren't familiar with that [69:08] book, it's sort of this this story of um [69:12] inner-city gang life and teen crime. [69:15] And [69:16] one of the things that Wilkerson talks a [69:18] lot about is that rebel this rebellious [69:21] spirit in these teens is like the is the [69:24] thing that parents need to get under. [69:26] That's the thing that runs rampant if [69:27] you don't get parental authority right. [69:30] So, the stakes are high from the very [69:31] beginning. If you don't keep your [69:33] toddler in check and teach them that you [69:36] are the authority in the household, [69:37] you're going to end up with that later. [69:39] And and there are a lot of authors that [69:41] make that draw that direct line, right? [69:44] Like the rebellious spirit you see in [69:45] your toddler, that's the rebellious [69:47] spirit that you see in these teens that [69:49] are getting involved in [69:50] crime and gang life. [69:52] Yeah, what what what what struck me [69:54] though is the connection when people go [69:56] beyond [69:57] your teenagers might get involved in in [69:59] destructive behavior or rebellious [70:00] sinful behavior. Okay, fine. We all know [70:02] that's a possibility in the world we [70:03] live in. But they draw it out even [70:05] further that essentially [70:08] this is going to lead to the downfall of [70:09] America. Yeah. Yes. [70:11] >> Right? This this is why Bill Clinton is [70:13] doing what he's doing in the Oval Office [70:15] in the 1990s. This is why we lost the [70:17] Vietnam War because our soldiers weren't [70:19] really disciplined enough. Da da da da. [70:22] And I'll give you [70:23] quote again from your book. You cite Tim [70:25] Kimmel. Yeah. [70:27] You already laughing as you know what [70:28] I'm going to read. And he said this, [70:30] "Someone has stated that the true wealth [70:32] of a nation is its people. I agree, but [70:35] I'm inclined to narrow that definition. [70:36] America's true wealth is its parents. [70:39] Parents are the hinge on which a [70:41] civilization pivots. They determine [70:43] whether the door of the future swings [70:45] open or closed. In other words, if you [70:47] don't get control of your toddler, [70:49] Western civilization is going to [70:50] collapse. Like this is So, you you [70:54] aren't just putting the pressure on a [70:55] parent to say you have control over the [70:58] outcome of your child. [70:59] You're not just putting the pressure [71:00] that there is [71:02] God's will and divine principles that [71:04] you are expected to apply, but the very [71:06] fate of the world [71:08] is hinging on how well you parent. [71:11] Yes. [71:11] >> That's crazy. [71:13] >> [snorts] [71:13] >> Yeah. [71:14] >> [gasps] [71:14] >> It is. It is. It's crazy. And that that [71:17] passage in that book struck me as so [71:19] strange. He's sort of he's he's telling [71:21] this anecdote. He's walking through [71:22] Washington, D.C. and reflecting on all [71:24] the national monuments and thinking [71:26] about how parents are the wealth of the [71:27] nation. It's very [71:29] I don't know, kind of polemical. And uh [71:33] and yes, it puts the pressure on [71:35] parents. It puts a lot of blame on [71:37] parents. [71:38] And uh [71:40] it's [71:42] it's pressure that parents have always [71:44] felt. I see it now. I don't know how [71:45] much time you spend on Tik Tok, but it [71:47] always makes me think of these videos [71:49] that you get right now. It's kind of [71:50] teachers, right? These parents are not [71:52] teaching their kids right and our [71:54] education system's going to collapse, [71:56] right? Uh [71:57] parents take the blame for the behavior [71:59] of children. Understandably so, but part [72:03] of what makes that such a um [72:06] toxic and pressure-filled situation is [72:08] that parents only have so much control [72:10] Right. [72:10] >> over their children. [72:12] >> [laughter and gasps] [72:12] >> Uh and [72:14] we don't always know what to do with [72:16] that. It's it's just tricky. [72:18] >> Yeah. Well, and not only that, we have [72:20] limited control over our children and [72:21] that control becomes less and less the [72:22] older they get. [72:24] But these resources don't tend to to uh [72:27] or or they give universal principles [72:31] that may not apply in every [72:32] circumstance. I mean, we are infinitely [72:34] complicated creatures as are our [72:36] children. So, to say that this [72:38] 3-year-old who's having temper tantrums [72:41] that this book is going to tell me how [72:42] to solve that when that book has no idea [72:45] what this 3-year-old is like or who [72:46] they're [72:47] I it that's the part that always grabbed [72:49] me as ridiculous. Like every person, [72:52] every circumstance, every system is [72:53] different. And to say, "Well, this is [72:55] what the Bible says and this is how you [72:56] do it." And you do universalize that [72:58] is kind of that's All right. Let let me [72:59] go back to this umbrella of authority [73:01] thing though. [73:02] As you say stated or these resources say [73:04] like a child has a role in submitting to [73:06] mom, mom or wife has a role in [73:08] submitting to their husband, husband has [73:10] a role in submitting to God. And if [73:12] everyone just fulfills their role [73:13] perfectly, the whole system works. You [73:15] have order, you have structure, and the [73:18] world will [73:20] operate the way God intended. But this [73:22] kind of gets extended then as we were [73:24] alluding to that [73:25] if then each family submits to their [73:27] church leadership, to the pastor, to the [73:29] elders, then if churches submit to the [73:32] authorities above them, and if people [73:33] just submit to the government, like this [73:35] gets extended all the way through the [73:37] whole thing. So, this is where I want to [73:38] talk about. How how do you see these [73:40] resources from this era [73:42] priming the pump for people to accept [73:45] authoritarian leadership in their [73:46] churches? And now when you look at [73:48] what's going on on a lot of the [73:50] conservative end of the political [73:51] spectrum, how did it prime people to [73:52] accept authoritarian political [73:55] leadership? Mhm. [73:58] Yeah. [73:59] If you grow up believing that parental [74:03] authority will establish this sort of [74:06] trickle-down effect of everything [74:07] running smoothly uh and that principle [74:10] gets scaled up from your household into [74:12] your church, and then that gets scaled [74:14] up maybe into your vision for what [74:17] America's political system should look [74:19] like, then you you understandably may [74:23] internalize whether you know it or not, [74:26] this belief that if there is strong [74:29] correct authority at the top, everything [74:31] else will fall into place, right? Right. [74:33] And this this assumes that the authority [74:35] at the top is the correct authority and [74:37] that everybody underneath is doing their [74:39] job. [74:40] Uh so, there's obviously some priming [74:44] there for a particular way of seeing how [74:45] the world works and how [74:48] relationships work. [74:50] But again, this gets back to the [74:52] mechanization we were talking about [74:54] before. It sort of sees humans as far [74:58] more mechanical than we are. Sees human [75:00] relationship as far more mechanical than [75:03] it is. Within the household, within the [75:05] church, and within a nation. Right? We [75:09] have systems. We have political systems, [75:11] but the people in them are not cogs. [75:15] It's just not that simple. [75:17] But if you are primed to believe that [75:19] and that every relational quirk hiding [75:22] in there should be subsumed to that [75:24] system, then absolutely, that's sort of [75:27] priming you to prioritize the authority [75:29] structure over any of the messiness [75:32] underneath. [snorts] [75:34] Uh or any of the the nuances that happen [75:37] in individual communities and individual [75:39] households. Those become aberrations [75:41] that are totally unacceptable or just [75:44] need to be pushed aside or ignored or [75:46] even hidden in some cases. Yeah, one of [75:49] the things I [75:51] really appreciate about this book. I [75:52] don't know if you guys intended this, [75:53] but as I was reading it, I found it [75:57] so explanatory for the moment we're in. [75:59] Mhm. Uh it goes way beyond parenting [76:02] stuff, but [76:03] here's one of the dilemmas I've had for [76:05] years. [76:07] And sort of politics and cultural [76:09] dynamics stuff like that. When when uh [76:11] in certain scenarios, you will hear [76:13] Christian leaders on the right argue, [76:15] often citing Romans 13, that people need [76:18] to submit to the authority of the [76:19] government, right? You heard this for [76:21] example most recently with the [76:23] protesters in Minneapolis against ICE [76:25] and and some of the shootings that [76:26] happened and some people say, "Well, [76:28] they weren't obeying the law. They [76:29] weren't submitting to the authority. [76:31] They you know, it's tragic, but they got [76:33] what they deserved because they weren't [76:34] doing the right thing." [76:35] But then you rewind the tape to January [76:38] 6th, 2021 when there were thousands of [76:40] people [76:41] storming the Capitol, and that was [76:43] completely acceptable. They weren't [76:44] called to submit to authority. [76:46] But when you read it through the lens of [76:47] the parenting advice that came out of [76:49] the '80s and '90s and the early 2000s, [76:51] it begins to make sense because the [76:53] essential argument is [76:55] if the authority structure is godly, [76:57] then you need to submit to it and [76:59] there's no excuse for any sort of [77:01] pushback, rebellion, questioning of [77:02] anything they do. But if the authority [77:04] is ungodly, [77:06] then you need to rebel against it and [77:08] and fight to take it over again. So, the [77:10] argument coming from the political right [77:11] was, "Well, in January 6th, 2021, [77:15] the authority was ungodly, so we were [77:16] justified in storming the Capitol. [77:18] But when it's ICE protests or ICE [77:21] officers that are deployed by Donald [77:22] Trump, they're godly and so you need to [77:25] submit to them." But it [77:27] what I thought had been hypocrisy before [77:29] isn't hypocrisy in the minds of those [77:30] who are abiding by because it fits with [77:32] this view that godly authority must [77:35] always be submitted to no matter what, [77:36] and ungodly authority doesn't have to be [77:38] submitted to. Uh toward that end, I want [77:40] to read another quote. This is from Tedd [77:42] Tripp's book, Shepherding a Child's [77:44] Heart. [77:45] He says, "You don't have to wonder if it [77:47] is okay for you to be in charge." [77:48] Speaking of course to parents. [77:50] "You certainly do not need your child's [77:52] permission. God has given you a duty to [77:54] perform. Therefore, the endorsement of [77:56] your child is not necessary." Yeah. I [78:00] mean, that's exactly what we're seeing [78:01] in our political moment where people [78:03] the government doesn't need the will of [78:04] the people anymore because they have [78:06] God's authority. Right. [78:08] >> And that's it. And so you see this [78:09] through line or many of the church abuse [78:12] stories that we've been hearing for [78:14] years comes from this sense that, "Well, [78:15] I'm the pastor or I'm the elder. I have [78:18] God's authority and everyone needs to [78:19] submit and stop questioning it." [78:21] Despite, you know, scores of people [78:23] who've been abused or mistreated or [78:26] whatever. And and that [78:28] demand that you submit, [78:30] no matter what, don't question, don't [78:32] ask, don't challenge, [78:34] permeates this moment on a lot of the [78:36] political right. Okay. Um couple more [78:39] things I really want to cover. [78:42] You talk about how in these curricula [78:44] the behavior of children, [78:47] everything is just labeled as sin. [78:49] It's it's black and white. It's right or [78:51] wrong. There's no gray. There's no [78:52] nuance. Explain why that's such an [78:54] important part of so many of these [78:56] parenting books. [78:58] Yeah. Well, the one you just quoted, [78:59] Tedd Tripp, Shepherding a Child's Heart. [79:01] This is kind of like the core of this [79:02] book, which is, you know, you as a [79:05] parent are in charge. You're the [79:06] authority figure, and your job basically [79:08] is to identify, diagnose the sin in your [79:11] child's heart. And he offers lists and [79:14] lists of examples, anecdotes of this [79:17] toddler is doing this. That's flowing [79:18] from the sin of covetousness. That's [79:20] flowing from the sin of even like [79:22] lustfulness, even kind of attributing [79:25] strange sexuality to children and [79:29] it it it's disturbing to read. And also, [79:32] it just encourages parents to look at [79:34] their children as little sinners, which [79:36] depending on what corner of the church [79:38] you grew up in, that may be familiar [79:40] language to you, right? Like [79:42] Ken Ham tells an anecdote about that. [79:44] He's going to the hospital visiting, [79:45] "Look at that beautiful little sinner." [79:47] You know, this language is so normalized [79:49] in some places. [79:51] And usually in jest, but in practice, it [79:54] leads to this really contentious [79:56] relationship between parent and child, [79:58] where a parent is encouraged to look at [79:59] their child and ask, [80:01] "I don't like this behavior. I got to [80:03] look underneath. I got to dig underneath [80:05] now and figure out what the sin is so [80:07] that I can diagnose it, [80:09] in some cases explain it [80:12] in not always age-appropriate ways, and [80:14] then punish it accordingly. [80:17] You know, kids need to understand that [80:19] they are sinful. They need to have me [80:21] point out the sinful reason they're [80:22] doing what they're doing, and then they [80:23] need to experience pain to deter them [80:25] from doing it again. [80:27] And [80:29] gosh, that leads to I'm I I hate that [80:33] whole system for a number of reasons. [80:35] One, because it just it it does away [80:38] with the idea of developmentally [80:39] appropriate behavior, right? That this [80:41] idea that sometimes kids are just having [80:42] a hard time, but [80:45] authors like Ted Tripp look at a hard [80:47] moment with a toddler and essentially [80:48] say, "Who sins at this moment is so bad? [80:50] Who sins that this parental moment is so [80:52] hard?" Right? Like my child won't sleep, [80:54] who is sinning here? Probably my child, [80:56] you know, this rebellious spirit. [80:57] They're choosing not to sleep. [80:59] Which is absurd, [81:01] but also it just robs these moments of [81:04] connection. It sort of assumes there is [81:06] no understanding to be had here. There [81:09] is no relationship to be pursued here. [81:12] There is only identify, diagnose, [81:14] punish. And that becomes a way around [81:20] connection, even with a toddler, with a [81:22] young child. And so that makes me sad, [81:24] and it also makes me a little angry to [81:27] read those, you know? I We have a new [81:29] puppy in our home right now, and [81:30] >> [snorts] [81:31] >> when I was reading your book last night, [81:33] I'm in the room with this crazy puppy. [81:35] He's only 9 weeks old, and I [81:36] realized a lot of what these guys are [81:39] promoting is exactly what we've been [81:40] trying to do with our puppy, right? You [81:43] reward good behavior, you try to scold [81:45] bad behavior, you're training [81:48] But a human child is so much more [81:49] complicated than a puppy. And yeah, that [81:52] that loss of connection or understanding [81:54] or empathy and uh uh [81:56] so much going on there, but again, you [81:58] see a connection far beyond parenting, [82:01] where everything that goes on in our [82:02] culture today, all the complications of [82:04] our world, [82:06] in some sectors is just it's black and [82:08] white. It's right and wrong. It's sin or [82:10] it's righteous. There's no room for [82:11] nuance or complexity. [82:14] And it's always who's to blame here and [82:16] how should they be punished? And there's [82:18] no questioning, there's no um [82:21] connection, engagement, listening, [82:24] and even empathy itself has now become [82:26] >> Right, this is why empathy is dangerous, [82:28] guys. That's why it's dangerous. [82:29] >> Exactly. All right, before we wrap up, I [82:31] want to talk about [82:32] towards the end of the book, I should [82:33] say, one of the things you guys do [82:34] really well here is you include [82:37] uh messages from children who grew up in [82:39] these kinds of settings and from parents [82:42] who tried to parent these kinds of [82:43] things, explaining their experiences, [82:45] some of their regrets, what they've [82:46] learned or how they've responded to all [82:48] this. But then towards the end of the [82:49] book, [82:51] you begin to talk about how this is [82:52] playing out today. [82:54] And we mentioned at the beginning that a [82:56] lot of this came out of reaction to the [82:59] 1960s, the cultural upheaval of that era [83:01] and people looking for a sense of [83:02] control. [83:04] You can make a case that we're in a [83:05] similar scenario today. There's been a [83:06] lot of cultural change very very [83:08] rapidly. Some of it due to technology, [83:10] some of it because of the changing [83:11] sexual morals of our culture. [83:14] And I see people, [83:16] even younger people today who are [83:18] grasping for certainty. [83:20] Right? What does it mean to be a man or [83:23] a woman today? What does it mean to be a [83:24] parent? How do I have a family? And [83:26] for example, you mentioned this in the [83:27] book, the trad wives phenomenon. Like, [83:30] are you seeing are [83:32] are the conditions ripe for a resurgence [83:34] of this kind of messaging, of books and [83:36] curricula, [83:38] and influencers saying, "Here is the [83:39] God-given way to [83:42] be a person, to be a husband, to be a [83:43] wife, to be a family, to be a parent?" [83:46] And are you worried we're going to make [83:48] the same mistakes again? [83:49] All the time. Yes. And And you know, [83:52] there are some things about the [83:53] influencer sphere that have changed the [83:55] way parents are getting advice. Uh the [83:58] trad wife content, I think, is really [84:00] fascinating [84:01] for a number of reasons, but one of them [84:04] is that instead of telling parents what [84:06] to do, it does tell parents what to do, [84:08] but it does it in a more subtle way by [84:10] basically telling parents, especially [84:11] mothers, [84:12] what good parenthood is supposed to feel [84:14] like, what it's supposed to look like. [84:16] There's this aspirational aesthetic [84:19] vision for like the peaceful, [84:21] well-appointed Christian home. And now [84:23] it's swirled in with sponsored content [84:25] and a consumable lifestyle that you can [84:28] kind of curate for yourself. [84:30] But it's funny cuz I'll come across trad [84:32] wife posts that have [84:33] #shepherdingachild'sheart [84:35] and a quote from Ted Tripp, right? Now, [84:38] social media is recycling a lot of the [84:40] same ideas and even some of the same [84:42] books that were popular in the '90s and [84:44] 2000s because absolutely Christian [84:47] parents are still very hungry for [84:50] certainty and for information about how [84:52] to parent. There is quite a lot of [84:54] backlash among [84:56] evangelical parents to like the gentle [84:58] parenting or attachment parenting [84:59] movement, [85:01] which is very ill-defined, I should say, [85:02] but [85:04] people are looking for this information. [85:06] And so a new wave of influencers, [85:09] millennials and Gen Z parents, are kind [85:11] of coming up in the podcasting and [85:13] influencing world and are in some cases [85:17] repackaging old ideas, offering their [85:19] new spin on it. You know, recently there [85:21] was a podcast with one influencer, where [85:23] she and her husband were talking very [85:24] openly about why they're going to spank [85:26] their kids. And that was [85:29] interesting to me, because for a while [85:32] things have been a bit more hush-hush on [85:34] social media about things like corporal [85:36] punishment. But we are seeing a much [85:38] more vocal contingent of [85:41] of conservative Christians advocating [85:43] for spanking publicly, which at least in [85:46] my view is a is a change from maybe 10 [85:48] years ago. [85:49] >> Right. Which speaks to some broader [85:51] cultural movements as well. And I think [85:54] we're going to keep on keep on seeing [85:56] that. But it is kind of disturbing to me [85:58] how tied up it all is with the other the [86:01] other parts of the influencer sphere. [86:02] Like sponsored content and people [86:05] selling you things constantly. [86:07] >> Yeah, it's weird because [86:09] you can now not just get advice from [86:11] somebody, but you can inhabit their [86:12] entire [86:13] identity. It'd be It'd be like if if [86:15] James James Dobson back in the '70s and [86:17] '80s wasn't just telling you how to [86:18] discipline your kids, but also telling [86:20] you where you can buy his khakis and [86:22] loafers. Like it's a Nobody was asking [86:24] him for fashion advice, [laughter] [86:25] right? But that's what we've become now. [86:27] It's you can identify with somebody so [86:29] entirely that I'm going to [86:32] mimic their way of parenting, I'm going [86:34] to mimic their hairstyle, I'm going to [86:35] mimic their clothing, I'm going to mimic [86:37] their vacation, all of it, because [86:39] that's the life I want, even though what [86:41] you're being presented is a curated and [86:43] branded identity, not reality. But But [86:46] people are sold this because they're so [86:48] desperate [86:49] for a sense of of certainty and [86:52] guidance. [86:54] Um [86:55] Oh, Kelsey, this I I Like I said, I [86:56] could go on and on about this cuz I [86:58] found the book so explanatory for so [87:00] many things, not just the parenting [87:02] culture of evangelicalism, [87:04] but the way our churches, our [87:05] communities, even our politics are [87:07] shaped by these similar values. So thank [87:09] you for the amazing work you've done. I [87:11] should tell people the very end of the [87:12] book, you guys have this remarkably [87:14] helpful [87:16] uh guide for evaluating parenting [87:18] resources, where you raise different [87:21] questions and then organize it through [87:23] green light, yellow light, red light. [87:24] Like as you come across your own [87:26] parenting stuff, it's a helpful guide to [87:28] say, "Here's what might be problematic. [87:30] Be careful. Here's probably a more [87:32] mature thing and and what you should [87:35] stay away from." So there's a practical [87:37] help in your book as well, but um last [87:40] question, [87:42] having finished this project, how has it [87:44] changed you as you think about your [87:46] role? [87:48] Wow. Well, I mean, I should say first of [87:50] all, this is a strange first book for [87:52] me. This is not a book I intended on [87:54] intended to write. [87:56] >> [laughter] [87:56] >> Um it has certainly made me less [87:59] interested in giving anyone parenting [88:01] advice. That's I mean, I think [88:04] reading these books, I have young kids [88:05] myself. I was not interested in giving [88:08] advice, which is one reason why we have [88:09] that metric at the end of this book. It [88:11] was sort of we felt like we wanted to [88:12] give people some useful takeaway that [88:15] wasn't just isn't this all so bad, you [88:17] know? [88:18] And that was as far as we were willing [88:20] to go. Um but I [88:24] truly do believe that there is so little [88:28] one-size-fits-all [88:29] parenting advice. [88:31] And I also believe that I think I [88:35] believe that connection between parents [88:38] and children is so much more possible [88:40] than most Christian parenting books have [88:42] let us to believe. There are some newer [88:44] ones that are doing a much better job of [88:46] that, but the ones we surveyed, 1970 to, [88:50] you know, to 2010, [88:53] you come away from these books with so [88:55] little belief that I could have genuine [88:57] connection and relationship with my [88:59] three, four, five-year-old. Uh and I [89:03] believe that we can. Children are [89:05] different. Childhood is sort of [89:08] mysterious to adults, cuz I can't [89:10] reinhabit the mind of my six-year-old [89:12] [snorts] self. [89:14] So understanding and empathizing with my [89:17] 6-year-old and my 8-year-old is [89:18] challenging. [89:20] But, I do think it is more important [89:23] than keeping their sin in check at all [89:25] times. But, I think I I believe that [89:27] now. I think I believed that before, but [89:29] I was I wouldn't have known how to [89:31] articulate why or what that might look [89:33] like. So, I'm hopeful that people can [89:35] read this book and come away more [89:37] empowered to connect with their kids. I [89:40] sometimes compare these books now to bad [89:41] dating manuals. Like, really bad like [89:44] gamified pick-up artist stuff, right? [89:47] Like, don't look for a book that is [89:49] giving you shortcuts around connection [89:50] with your kids. Don't look for a dating [89:52] book that is giving you a shortcut for [89:55] connecting with a human being. Like, [89:57] treating it like it's this [89:59] gamified relationship. Um because I [90:01] think that's a recipe for [90:03] poor relationships. [90:04] >> Amen. I mean, you you're affirming [90:06] something I've said many times on the [90:07] show over the years. People send in [90:09] questions to us and I I don't give [90:11] parenting advice and I don't give [90:13] marriage advice. And part of it is [90:16] is because I don't think you can [90:17] generalize it, but more importantly, [90:21] another human being is the most [90:22] complicated thing that we have ever [90:24] encountered in this universe. [90:26] And I want to know well and connect [90:29] deeply with the four other human beings [90:32] that I am called to be closest to, which [90:34] is my wife and my three kids, and I'm [90:36] figuring that out and I want other [90:38] people to figure that out too, but I [90:39] can't do that for you. [90:41] Um and so, that's why we tried to keep [90:44] our [90:46] our need for parenting help in incarnate [90:49] community with people that trusted us, [90:51] knew us, knew our kids, [90:53] and we went that route rather than [90:55] here's a universalized principles that [90:58] often don't hit where we are. So, [91:00] anyway, you're you're singing my song. [91:02] Kelsey, thank you for your time today [91:03] and for your excellent work and this [91:05] this [91:06] super helpful resource for a lot of [91:08] people that I think will find it [91:09] illuminating. Thanks for being here. [91:11] Thank you. [91:12] Hi everyone. I hate doing this, but our [91:14] producer Mike is making me tell you to [91:16] like and subscribe so that you can see [91:18] more Holy Post videos and other people [91:20] can see them, too.  📄 **Full text:** ![[Full Document Contents/Articles/The Parenting Prosperity Gospel With Kelsey Kramer McGinnis.md|The Parenting Prosperity Gospel With Kelsey Kramer McGinnis by YouTube]] ## Highlights - McGinnis, co-author of The Myth of Good Christian Parenting, talks with me about the explosive rise of evangelical parenting books in the late 20th century and the prosperity theology that's behind them. She says the same ideas are still popular today, but they're taking on new forms. All of this, plus debriefing the Stucky versus French debate. We get so many wonderful messages from those of you who appreciate the content we create here at Holy Post Media. The whole team loves getting those emails or seeing your encouraging posts on social ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kpv0kpq1yw71x9q1tdevhg1d)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - Caitlin, care to I I'm so I was like really not looking forward to you reading someone else's Twitter description of this, but I'm so glad you did now, because that was the other big thing I wanted to talk about was it was so clarifying. Obviously, none of their conversation about like empathy and biblical truth and all of that is new. This is like the conversation we have been having for a while. But it was really clarifying to me in two ways. One, there can be a tendency from folks of the "be wary of empathy" crowd, which ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kpv0kpq56zvk38x2sdkk5mys)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - book is co-authored by Marisa Franks Burton and my guest today, Kelsey Kramer McGinnis. As you'll hear in the interview, I really really love this [music] book, but not because it just exposes the terrible theology that fueled a lot of the parenting [music] advice that I heard growing up, but because it also explains so much of what we're seeing in the American [music] church today way beyond just parenting. Things like the attraction to simple good and evil explanations for complicated issues and why so many Evangelicals are comfortable ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kpv0kpqa42pbckm08yxap89g)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - people back into the fold of the church. And in some cases, like in the case of James Dobson, there's even these promises like, we will right the ship of American culture by raising a generation of faithful, well-behaved children. >> Yeah, I I I want to get into the how this fits into the larger culture war stuff and politics in a minute. But to focus again on this this these promises that are that are given, um early in the book and page five, you quote Growing Kids God's Way, which was a very popular curriculum. Yeah. And it said this, God ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kpv0kpqex8k69prngqvycemg)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - Christian parenting books. We relied far more on incarnate community for our wisdom and advice, cuz I found a lot of them to be nauseating. >> [laughter] >> I'm glad for you. And your kids. Um but but yeah, they, you know, those promises also treat children like little machines. I think one thing that I found really disturbing about a lot of these books was that they treated children like little machines or computers to be programmed. And that's also disturbing to me. That kind of wonder, is this really how they saw ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kpv0kpqje41xqdz9epjkxmq9)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - You have a child, a teenager who is pushing and pushing and rebelling, you need to pick the principle over the person. >> When I read that part of the book, I was really surprised. And Yeah. And even to the point where he's calling parents to cut off your relationship with your teenager or young adult child if they're not obedient to you. I'm like, "Wow, that's pretty That's pretty harsh." Yeah, and and the reason why I bring up Larry Christenson in The Christian Family is because one of the endorsers of that book, who is also quoted a lot in there, is um ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kpv0kpqq3gpnam3nj9xwp2y4)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - no matter what, don't question, don't ask, don't challenge, permeates this moment on a lot of the political right. Okay. Um couple more things I really want to cover. You talk about how in these curricula the behavior of children, everything is just labeled as sin. It's it's black and white. It's right or wrong. There's no gray. There's no nuance. Explain why that's such an important part of so many of these parenting books. Yeah. Well, the one you just quoted, Tedd Tripp, Shepherding a Child's Heart. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kpv0kpqvmd70yrjf6rh422d9)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - fascinating for a number of reasons, but one of them is that instead of telling parents what to do, it does tell parents what to do, but it does it in a more subtle way by basically telling parents, especially mothers, what good parenthood is supposed to feel like, what it's supposed to look like. There's this aspirational aesthetic vision for like the peaceful, well-appointed Christian home. And now it's swirled in with sponsored content and a consumable lifestyle that you can kind of curate for yourself. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kpv0kpqzwyjvdnw2q7sek072)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - But it's funny cuz I'll come across trad wife posts that have #shepherdingachild'sheart and a quote from Ted Tripp, right? Now, social media is recycling a lot of the same ideas and even some of the same books that were popular in the '90s and 2000s because absolutely Christian parents are still very hungry for certainty and for information about how to parent. There is quite a lot of backlash among evangelical parents to like the gentle parenting or attachment parenting movement, ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kpv0kpr390dcw3p7c69d3xtt)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - many things, not just the parenting culture of evangelicalism, but the way our churches, our communities, even our politics are shaped by these similar values. So thank you for the amazing work you've done. I should tell people the very end of the book, you guys have this remarkably helpful uh guide for evaluating parenting resources, where you raise different questions and then organize it through green light, yellow light, red light. Like as you come across your own parenting stuff, it's a helpful guide to say, "Here's what might be problematic. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kpv0kpr86s4vdtx9efx5r839)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted