Turning UX Thinking Into Better Products - CourtneyR.dev's 2nd Brain

Turning UX Thinking Into Better Products ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/FKYvJFC7rRY/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [Turning UX Thinking Into Better Products](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKYvJFC7rRY) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [user-experience, product-management, jetpack, wordpress-ux] > author: WP Product Talk > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKYvJFC7rRY > date created: 2025-01-27 10:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: Turning UX Thinking into Better Products >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Implement UX unification initiative for Jetpack — simplify visual inconsistency across modules #jetpack - [H2] Review admin UI for feature interaction conflicts — test complex option combinations #user-experience - [H3] Establish quantifiable product success metrics — define North Star measurements #product-management ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [WP Product Talk Channel](https://www.youtube.com/@WPProductTalk) - [Jetpack](https://jetpack.com) ## 📝 Summary - Devin Walker joins as Jetpack's new Artistic Director to address UX challenges in the complex product suite - Most WordPress products fail due to usability issues, not missing features, requiring systematic UX thinking - Key strategies include using WordPress components, simplifying pricing, and measuring impact through quantifiable metrics - Real examples show how subtle UX problems emerge when adding complexity to existing interfaces - Bottom line: UX is a multiplier throughout development, not a layer added at the end ## 📖 Main Content This discussion explores how to improve user experience in WordPress products, using Jetpack's transformation as a primary case study. Devin Walker, recently appointed as Jetpack's Artistic Director, shares insights on addressing the common challenge of feature-rich products that users struggle to understand and use effectively. The conversation highlights a critical distinction: most products fail not because they lack features, but because users can't figure out how to use them. This is particularly relevant for WordPress products, where the open-source ecosystem creates a "grab bag of UI/UX" experiences as different plugins implement their own design approaches. Key strategies discussed include leveraging WordPress core components for consistency, simplifying complex pricing structures, and implementing systematic approaches to measure UX success. The hosts share specific examples of UX challenges they've encountered, from document library usage patterns to checkout flow optimization. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/FKYvJFC7rRY?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and Jetpack Leadership - Key idea: Devin Walker joins Jetpack as Artistic Director/Product Owner to focus on UX improvements - Evidence: "I wake up and I think about how we can improve the UI UX of Jetpack, of which there is much to do" #### ⏱️ [05:45](https://youtu.be/FKYvJFC7rRY?t=345) — [H2] Jetpack Stats Interface Demo - Key idea: Stats represents one of Jetpack's better UX implementations with visual dashboard design - Evidence: Shows green-branded stats interface with digestible dashboard layout and main metrics view #### ⏱️ [08:20](https://youtu.be/FKYvJFC7rRY?t=500) — [H3] WordPress Component Strategy - Key idea: Moving toward WordPress core components instead of custom branding for better user familiarity - Evidence: "We're gonna still have a little bit of flavor of jetpack branding, but it's going to be more using WordPress components" #### ⏱️ [12:15](https://youtu.be/FKYvJFC7rRY?t=735) — [H2] Visual Inconsistency Problem - Key idea: WordPress ecosystem creates UI/UX inconsistency across different plugins and services - Evidence: Demonstrates jumping between different interfaces with varying design approaches and color schemes #### ⏱️ [16:30](https://youtu.be/FKYvJFC7rRY?t=990) — [H1] Jetpack Experience Unification Initiative - Key idea: Comprehensive effort to bring cohesion to Jetpack's identity and user experience - Evidence: "I'm calling it the Jetpack Experience Unification Initiative... bringing cohesion to what Jetpack is" #### ⏱️ [19:45](https://youtu.be/FKYvJFC7rRY?t=1185) — [H2] Pricing Simplification Strategy - Key idea: Reducing complex pricing options to focus users on comprehensive plans rather than individual add-ons - Evidence: References Give WP's success moving from individual add-ons to bundled plans with 80% choosing the middle option #### ⏱️ [25:10](https://youtu.be/FKYvJFC7rRY?t=1510) — [H3] First Impressions Impact - Key idea: User experience encompasses everything from discovery to first interaction, not just the software interface - Evidence: "First impressions leave a lasting mark... Jetpack has like a pretty nice fancy front of the store, but when you get in... the store is a little bit all over the place" #### ⏱️ [29:20](https://youtu.be/FKYvJFC7rRY?t=1760) — [H2] Hidden Problems in UX - Key idea: Connection issues and technical problems create invisible barriers that ruin user experience - Evidence: "Nothing breaks like ruins a UX like a hidden problem... when something goes wrong with that connection... that's when the experience gets really not good" #### ⏱️ [34:15](https://youtu.be/FKYvJFC7rRY?t=2055) — [H3] Job-to-be-Done Framework - Key idea: Support teams can identify UX issues by logging what users were trying to accomplish when they needed help - Evidence: "100% of our support... logs the job to be done for every support request... the thing they were doing at the time they decided they needed our help" #### ⏱️ [40:30](https://youtu.be/FKYvJFC7rRY?t=2430) — [H2] Document Library UX Case Study - Key idea: 15% of users adding instructions above document library interface reveals potential UX issues - Evidence: "People are writing above the document library to tell their users how to use the document library" #### ⏱️ [45:20](https://youtu.be/FKYvJFC7rRY?t=2720) — [H1] Product Options Complexity Failure - Key idea: Adding quantity picker feature created confusing interaction with existing choice restrictions - Evidence: Demonstrates how choice restrictions vs quantity limits became unclear when spread across interface sections #### ⏱️ [50:10](https://youtu.be/FKYvJFC7rRY?t=3010) — [H3] North Star Metrics Importance - Key idea: Successful UX improvements require clear, quantifiable measures of what the product should achieve - Evidence: "Do we actually just drive additional revenue for all people 90 days post install?" #### ⏱️ [53:45](https://youtu.be/FKYvJFC7rRY?t=3225) — [H1] UX as Multiplier Not Layer - Key idea: UX thinking must be integrated throughout development process rather than added at the end - Evidence: "UX is more of a multiplier than a layer... it's baked into everything that you do" #### ⏱️ [56:30](https://youtu.be/FKYvJFC7rRY?t=3390) — [H2] Documentation-Free Usage Goal - Key idea: Products should be usable without documentation through intuitive design and WordPress component familiarity - Evidence: "Your goal should be to allow people to find success with that product without reading anything" ## 📚 References - [Jetpack](https://jetpack.com) - [WordPress Components Documentation](https://developer.wordpress.org/block-editor/reference-guides/components/) - [Freemius Growth Platform](https://freemius.com) - [Independent Analytics Plugin](https://wordpress.org/plugins/independent-analytics/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Jetpack faces the challenge of being a comprehensive suite that users find confusing, requiring systematic UX unification to clarify its value proposition of security, performance, and growth tools - WordPress products should leverage core components and design patterns instead of creating custom interfaces, as this reduces cognitive load and provides familiar user experiences - Effective UX improvement requires quantifiable success metrics and integration throughout the development process rather than treating design as a final step ## 📰 Newsletter Devin Walker's appointment as Jetpack's Artistic Director signals Automattic's commitment to addressing long-standing UX challenges in their flagship plugin suite. His approach of unifying the experience while leveraging WordPress core components offers valuable lessons for all plugin developers. The key insight: UX failures often stem from hidden complexity rather than missing features. Whether it's confusing pricing structures, inconsistent interfaces, or technical connection issues, these problems compound to create user frustration that can't be solved by adding more functionality. For WordPress product builders, the discussion highlights practical strategies like using WordPress components for consistency, implementing clear success metrics, and treating UX as an integral part of development rather than an afterthought. Resources: [WordPress Components](https://developer.wordpress.org/block-editor/reference-guides/components/), [Jetpack](https://jetpack.com), [WP Product Talk](https://wpproducttalk.com/) ## ✅ Action Items #### WordPress - Core: Promote consistent component usage across plugin ecosystem, provide better UX guidance for developers - Community: Develop UX best practices documentation for plugin developers, create design pattern library - Training: Create UX-focused courses for WordPress product builders, emphasize user-centered design principles #### OSPO - Developer Support: Provide UX consultation for open source WordPress projects, establish design system resources - Community Engagement: Fund UX improvements in popular plugins, support design-focused contributions #### DevRel - Education: Develop workshops on WordPress UX best practices, create component usage tutorials - Developer marketing: Highlight successful UX transformation case studies, promote design-first thinking ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Products using WordPress core components consistently will have lower support ticket volumes than those with custom interfaces - Simplifying pricing from multiple individual options to 2-3 bundled plans will increase conversion rates and reduce decision fatigue - Implementing quantifiable UX success metrics will lead to more effective product improvements than feature request prioritization alone - Organizations with systematic UX integration throughout development will ship fewer post-release fixes than those treating UX as final polish ### 📊 Methodology - A/B testing component-based interfaces vs custom designs measuring user task completion rates and support requests - Cohort analysis comparing pricing structure changes with conversion and customer satisfaction metrics - Longitudinal study tracking development teams before and after implementing UX-first processes ### ❓ Questions - How can WordPress core better enforce or incentivize consistent UX patterns across the plugin ecosystem? - What metrics most accurately predict whether UX changes will improve real user outcomes vs internal satisfaction? - When does feature complexity become genuinely necessary vs appearing necessary due to poor UX design? ### 🔮 Future Research - Developing standardized UX evaluation frameworks for WordPress products - Creating automated tools to detect common UX anti-patterns in plugin interfaces - Investigating correlation between WordPress component usage and user retention rates ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Teams should integrate UX evaluation throughout development rather than treating it as final QA - Policy: WordPress.org could develop UX quality indicators similar to security and performance ratings - Education: Developer training should emphasize user-centered design principles alongside technical implementation - Funding: Investment in UX improvements may yield higher returns than new feature development for established products ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th grade (technical product management content) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Screen sharing of actual interfaces, visual comparison of good vs problematic UX examples - Improve: UX pattern library with visual examples, before/after transformation galleries #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Conversational podcast format with multiple perspectives and real-time discussion - Improve: Audio-only version highlighting key UX principles without visual dependency #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear definitions of UX terminology, analogies to retail store experiences - Improve: Glossary of UX terms specific to WordPress development context #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Live demonstration of interface interactions and user flows - Improve: Hands-on UX evaluation checklist, interactive wireframing exercises #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Structured problem identification and solution frameworks, metrics-based approaches - Improve: Decision trees for UX choices, quantified before/after impact measurements #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Multi-host discussion format with different perspectives and experiences - Improve: Community UX review sessions, peer feedback frameworks for product improvements #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual case study examples, self-reflection on personal product experiences - Improve: Self-assessment UX audit tools, individual practice exercises #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Ecosystem thinking about WordPress plugin interactions and user environments - Improve: Holistic user journey mapping considering broader WordPress usage patterns ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Transcript available, clear speaker identification throughout conversation - Improve: Timestamp navigation, description of visual interface examples being discussed #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard YouTube controls accessible via keyboard - Improve: Chapter markers for easier navigation to specific topics #### Contrast and readability - Present: High contrast video player interface - Improve: Closed captions with high contrast styling, visual interface descriptions #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: YouTube's responsive video player - Improve: Transcript formatting that reflows properly at large text sizes #### Media and captions - Present: Auto-generated captions available - Improve: Human-reviewed captions with technical term accuracy, downloadable transcript #### Forms and interactions - Present: Standard YouTube engagement controls (like, subscribe, comment) - Improve: Clear visual focus indicators on custom branded elements ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Global WordPress community perspective, multiple company experiences - Improve: International UX pattern examples, cultural considerations for interface design #### Inclusive language - Present: Professional, jargon-explained terminology throughout discussion - Improve: Plain language alternatives for highly technical UX concepts #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear topic transitions, consistent discussion structure - Improve: Visual outline of topics, content warnings for rapid screen changes #### Representation - Present: Mix of company sizes and product types in examples - Improve: More diverse range of user types and accessibility needs in UX discussions #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful discussion of product challenges, learning from mistakes - Improve: Explicit encouragement for UX beginners, resources for getting started ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Clear progression from UX principles to specific implementation strategies - Inductive strength: Multiple case studies supporting broader UX conclusions - Causal reasoning: Well-established links between UX problems and user behavior outcomes - Analogical strength: Effective retail store metaphors for digital product experience #### Fallacies - Appeal to authority: Minor reliance on speaker expertise without supporting evidence in some UX recommendations - Hasty generalization: Limited discussion of when custom interfaces might be preferable to WordPress components #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Collaborative and problem-solving focused, with honest acknowledgment of challenges and failures ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No denial patterns present - speakers acknowledge UX problems honestly - Attack: No attacks on users or critics - problems attributed to process issues - Reverse victim/offender: Not applicable - discussion focused on improvement rather than blame - Emotional cues: Constructive problem-solving tone throughout ## --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] Most products don't fail because they lack features. [00:03] They fail because people can't figure out how to use them. [00:07] How do you add more features without damaging usability and how many [00:12] support tickets, workarounds, or tutorials are really just symptoms [00:16] of bad ux and how do you make UX led decisions when your product is [00:21] already complex and widely used? [00:24] Let's find out. [00:29] This is WP Product Talk, a place where every week we bring you insights, [00:34] product marketing, business management, and growth, customer experience, [00:39] product development, and more. [00:42] It's your go-to podcast for WordPress product owners by WordPress product [00:47] owners, and now enjoy the show. [00:57] Hi, I'm Katie Keith, uh, founder and CEO at Barn2. [01:02] Yeah. [01:02] And I'm Ian Meiser. [01:03] I'm general manager and co-founder at Kestrel. [01:07] Um, yeah. [01:09] Now before we get started, we are on a road to hit, um, 10,000 YouTube [01:14] subscribers, although actually, uh, we have just hit that target. [01:18] So that is amazing since we wrote the show notes. [01:21] So thank you everybody who has already subscribed to us. [01:24] Um, if you haven't yet, then please go on to YouTube and subscribe now. [01:29] Or if you prefer to use a different podcast, uh, tool such as Apple or [01:34] Spotify, then you can subscribe there. [01:36] It only takes a second and it makes such a difference. [01:40] Yeah, and a huge thanks to Freemius for being our exclusive growth partner. [01:43] Freemius helps software makers grow, monetize, and succeed. [01:48] It's a merchant of record pro uh, platform handling everything around [01:51] selling software, so checkout payment subscriptions, licensing updates. [01:56] And apparently even tax compliance. [01:58] So they, they got the whole, whole pile here. [02:01] Uh, it helps you focus on what you do best, building your product. [02:07] Yeah. [02:07] And so now let us get into UX and product development. [02:11] For this, we have invited Devin Walker to the show. [02:16] Welcome Devin. [02:18] Hey, how are y'all doing? [02:19] Nice to be here. [02:21] Yeah. [02:21] Thank you so much for being here. [02:23] I know you've been a guest on the show before and we are delighted to have [02:27] you back, especially since you have a new role, which is very relevant [02:31] to the topic we are discussing today. [02:33] So could you tell everyone a bit about your new role and [02:35] what you're doing these days? [02:37] Yeah, sure. [02:38] So, uh, I've been at, what is it? [02:40] I think it's my fourth, fifth month now, uh, at Automattic, uh, leading jet pack. [02:47] My official title is, uh, artistic Director, although [02:51] I've heard Product Maison also. [02:53] But, uh, you know, I prefer to just call it, uh, product owner, general [02:58] manager, whatever you want to call it. [02:59] But, uh, yeah, that's, that's my role now and, uh, it's been good [03:03] getting, uh, I feel like I've gone through, uh, the onboarding phase. [03:08] I'm still learning a lot every day, but, uh. [03:11] I wake up and I think about how we can improve the, the UI UX of [03:16] Jetpack, of which there is much to do. [03:21] Yeah. [03:22] Because that's such a well known product and such a complex product that people [03:26] have been talking about for years. [03:27] So I think people were really pleased to see you to. [03:31] You join Jetpack and see that it's got a new direction and [03:34] all of that kind of thing. [03:35] So yeah, excited to learn more about that. [03:39] So with that in mind, let's jump straight into the show and tell part [03:43] of the show where we each talk about our work specifically relating to [03:47] the topic UX in product development. [03:50] Could you start off by sharing, uh, what you are doing with Jet? [03:54] Pack and what sorts of UX improvements maybe have already been made or that [03:58] you've identified that are needed and what a difference that would make? [04:02] Absolutely. [04:03] Yeah. [04:03] If, uh, if you wanna share my monitor here, one thing I can, um, [04:08] showcase are a few UIs that I think, uh, are pretty good in jet pack [04:13] and then where we want to improve. [04:15] Um, so if you're looking at my screen now. [04:18] You can see, uh, stats and stats are one of the more visual and, [04:23] uh, upfront features of Jet Pack. [04:26] And one of the, um, ones people really enjoy the most. [04:30] So obviously you can see here, uh, we're using these Jetpack Green colors. [04:35] We have this main view at the top which shows you your most relevant [04:38] stats, uh, most viewed pages, very digestible dashboard here. [04:44] Um, one thing that, uh, I will be changing in the near future is [04:49] making everything in Jetpack feel, uh, more like WordPress and for. [04:54] A lot of, um, the stats views it, it does feel like WordPress, but I'd say the [05:00] green color is probably gonna change to what you've set with your WP admin Blue. [05:05] Um, so we're gonna, you know, still have a little bit of flavor of jet pack [05:09] branding, but it's going to be more. [05:11] Um, more using WordPress components and primitives. [05:16] Um, so the stats you can see, uh, are quite nice and, um, you [05:20] can go through view your 2025 and review, which is quite nice. [05:25] Now, this is my personal site. [05:27] I don't get a whole lot of traffic on it, but, uh, it, it, and then it also [05:31] integrates with the newsletter feature here, which I just started using as well. [05:36] Um, another plugin that I run side by side is, uh, independent analytics. [05:41] Has, have you guys heard of that one at all? [05:44] No. [05:45] It's quite nice. [05:46] And, um, I really like the dashboard that they have here. [05:49] Um, you know, there's a lot more thrown at you as far as [05:53] like, what's what you can do. [05:54] You see this left hand side navigation and some could argue when stacked [06:00] next to the WP admin here, it can be a little bit overwhelming. [06:04] But for somebody like me who's spent, you know, the last 15 years in WP admin, [06:09] I can, I can, uh, it's not a problem for me, but I could see somebody being [06:13] relatively new to WordPress, being a bit, um, overwhelmed by the sidebar choices. [06:19] But as far as what they actually, um, show you and give you functionality [06:24] for, it's, it's really amazing. [06:26] And, um, this is where I see us wanting to take stats a bit more in the future, [06:32] where you can see your user journeys. [06:35] You actually have a real time view. [06:36] Uh, who's coming on your site where, oh boy, there's somebody from Canada. [06:40] That's great. [06:41] They actually, um, want to visit my site, but that dashboard's really nice. [06:46] You can see form submissions. [06:47] I don't have these hooked up right now it looks like, but, um, all these [06:51] different, uh, options that are a lot more digestible than if you were to use [06:56] Google Analytics or something like that. [06:59] Um. [07:00] So this, uh, you can see they also add their, um, purple primary color [07:05] here, which, um, I don't know. [07:09] I don't mind it so much. [07:10] I think the, the issue with WordPress, uh, compared to other, [07:15] um, closed source SaaS platforms. [07:18] Are, you do get kind of a grab bag of ui ux, right? [07:23] Depending on where you're at, uh, and what product or plugin you're interacting with. [07:28] And you know, I, I'm a bit split on that. [07:34] 'cause if you ever, I, I think Katie, you've developed for Shopify, right? [07:38] Yeah. [07:39] And when you develop for Shopify, they really, um, enforce some of [07:43] their standards on you, don't they? [07:45] Yeah. [07:45] If you want to get the built for Shopify badge, it has to match exactly, [07:50] which I really like because that's what we have always done in WordPress. [07:54] We've always analyzed what WordPress and WooCommerce do visually and [07:57] copied wherever we can, rather than invent our own, um, thing. [08:02] So for example, if it was a Barn2 plugin, you wouldn't be seeing purple here. [08:06] It would look. [08:07] And the whole background colors and everything, it would look more native. [08:10] But a lot of plugins do like to put their own mark on. [08:14] That's a great point. [08:15] And exactly. [08:16] And some of my products like WP Rollback for instance, we use WordPress components. [08:20] We don't, um, I don't really. [08:23] Uh, put too much, uh, outside of the native WordPress experience, [08:29] like you're saying, but WordPress in its open source nature, they don't [08:34] enforce any of those strict standards. [08:36] There's no badge. [08:37] You have to get, uh, like Shopify, which the end result is, you [08:42] know, you, you jump between some of these different options here. [08:45] Like if I go to Cadence, obviously it's gonna look completely [08:47] different than this, right? [08:49] Or if I go to the dashboard, it's gonna. [08:51] Um, the dashboard can potentially be, uh, a mishmash of all of 'em, right? [08:55] We have the analytics widget here. [08:58] We have the fluent SMTP adding something else here. [09:01] The host includes W or Object Cash Pro, that they, they arguably [09:06] keep the WordPress standard here. [09:09] Um, but I don't know why I don't have the, um, the. [09:15] Uh, oh, this is a different site, but the Jetpack Stats has their [09:19] own dashboard widget as well, which then you can see here. [09:23] So you got a mix of the two. [09:25] I mean, it, I've gotten past the point where it's annoyed me. [09:28] I mean, I've been in WordPress too much and, and there's no, uh, chance that [09:32] we can cram everybody into that box. [09:34] But the, the component libraries are out there. [09:37] Um, the UI standards, um, I wouldn't call 'em standards, but. [09:42] Guidance is there as well, if you want to go, uh, down that road. [09:47] Um, but yeah, overall the Jet Pak stats, that's a good example of where I [09:52] think Jet Pak does a, a good job of it. [09:55] Another area where, um, we're using a lot of WordPress components, [10:00] preventatives is the forms. [10:02] Jetpack Forms has gotten a, a significant upgrade recently, and you can see when [10:07] you, uh, go and view your contacts, you have like an inbox type of look here. [10:12] Uh, that then you can see the different messages. [10:16] You can mark 'em as spam. [10:17] All this is utilizing, obviously the WordPress core experience. [10:22] And what we're doing in the future is, um, standardizing a lot of this. [10:27] So when you switch between these different screens from Boost Social. [10:34] We're bringing these offsite links as well. [10:36] That's a bad experience when you get kicked to another site [10:39] to manage stuff on your site. [10:42] We're gonna bring these as first party pages within Jetpack, but across the [10:48] different pages when you go through them. [10:50] You see all sorts of different visuals, different layouts For the header here, [10:55] you keep the WordPress footer in place. [10:57] I'm not sure why, but it's going away. [11:00] Um, you and, and, and it's a lot less visual. [11:04] You see how many toggles there are. [11:05] Jet pack is toggle crazy. [11:08] Like you can enable and disable so many different things and you're [11:11] like, well, what did that do? [11:13] Um, there's multiple ways to. [11:16] Get to different modules. [11:17] There's just a lot going on with Jetpack and it's, uh. [11:22] It's kind of messy. [11:23] Let's not, I do, [11:26] I I wanna jump into like the whole point you said about using the, like, core [11:29] WordPress components as much as possible. [11:31] I would definitely say that that's, uh, it's a win-win for users and [11:34] for us as product makers, right? [11:36] Where, you know, often what's already out there is already mostly done, if [11:40] not done enough that you should use it. [11:42] For users, though it's familiar, it's comfortable and whatever. [11:45] And I see you're sort of highlighting in a lot of places, jet Pack [11:48] doesn't always do that today. [11:50] Mm-hmm. [11:50] And it's good to hear you're, you're leaning in that direction. [11:52] Um, I have a question. [11:53] I wanna just throw in one more thing. [11:54] Addressing some of the stuff you were dropping there though, of, [11:57] uh, specifically I have a lot of wordpress.com accounts because of [12:00] the various properties and like, you know, WooCommerce, admin and all that. [12:05] I had never, when I get kicked off of a site to go log in via [12:09] wordpress.com, I never know which like. [12:12] It's not even helping me, which account it should be, you know? [12:15] So it's, uh, the, I give up and I move on. [12:19] The question though is, uh, a little bit separate and maybe, maybe too much, [12:24] but in research for chatting with you today, I was digging through sort of [12:29] like some of the recent reviews for Jet Pack, and there is this trend that is, [12:33] you know, separate from all the neediness around, you know, it's the, it's the [12:36] big thing that does all the stuff, but it's the confusion around like, what. [12:41] Is Jetpack, literally. [12:43] Mm-hmm. [12:44] And I know that question's a little broad and a little much, but, uh, do you have [12:49] like a, an angle or a take or like a solution to the problem of that question [12:53] surfacing, you know, and say the.org reviews and, and that sort of thing? [12:58] Yeah, I mean, so we want to be able to answer that question in a, uh, as [13:02] few a sentences as possible, right. [13:05] It's security, it's performance, it's growth tools, like those [13:09] three buckets cover a lot though. [13:13] Right. [13:13] And what goes into those three buckets? [13:15] What tools? [13:16] Growth tools, well, newsletter, video press, social posting and sharing. [13:23] Uh, all sorts of different blocks that you can, uh, customize and [13:27] visualize your content better. [13:29] Uh, performance we have, you know. [13:33] Elastic search. [13:34] There's, uh, a, a again, all that needs to be explained better, and [13:41] that's one of the, the core efforts of this, um, roadmap this year is. [13:48] I'm calling it, um, the Jetpack Experience Unification Initiative. [13:53] That's a little bit of a mouthful, but let's just say it's bringing cohesion [13:56] to what Jetpack is, the story behind it. [14:00] And if you don't need everything, that's fine. [14:02] If you just want to use protect or, um, or social, we have, uh, [14:08] this happened before I came. [14:10] We've, we have, uh, individual plugins for those features. [14:14] And when you install some of those, uh, separate plugins, we're gonna be [14:18] taking a hard look at the experience there and how we can bring that, uh, [14:23] leverage that as like a taste of what Jetpack can bring, give you an idea of [14:27] what the whole suite of products are. [14:29] And so hopefully if you enjoy using that one single plugin, then there'll [14:33] be a, a, a nice clear pathway to, um, install the main plugin and then. [14:39] We're gonna simplify pricing and plans substantially as well. [14:43] Uh, I envision there's the single plugins, the main free core, uh, of Jetpack, [14:50] which you can do arguably a whole lot. [14:53] One of the, my, my biggest, um, issues or things that I'm trying to figure [14:58] out is how to provide that upsell. [15:01] 'cause the free plugin does do so much like the pro version. [15:05] Um, has a lot of great services that you can, uh, leverage, but you [15:11] know, when you go to the website, jetpack.com/pricing, you're kind of [15:15] bombarded with a lot of different options. [15:17] So what if there was only Jetpack, like premium or pro and, and that's it. [15:23] And like we can back load. [15:25] If you wanna buy a pro version of a social or an individual [15:28] one, sure you can do that. [15:30] Um, but we'll kind of back load that and. [15:33] Price it in a way where, you know, if you want it, you can do [15:37] it, it'll saves you some money. [15:38] But still we're really wanting you to experience the whole suite. [15:43] And, um, we've done this with Give WP right before, when we first launched [15:47] in 2015, we were just selling add-ons, extensions, whatever you wanna call 'em. [15:52] We called 'em add-ons. [15:54] Um, and that was good for a year or two and we're like, you know. [16:00] Most people, they, they need recurring donations. [16:04] A lot of them, they need PDF receipts and some of these must have add-ons. [16:07] We, well, why don't we have a couple plans that we can offer? [16:12] Right. [16:12] We'll do like a, I forget exactly what the, what we called 'em. [16:16] I think it was like, uh, basic plus and Pro. [16:19] Pro, you're basically getting everything basic you get, you don't [16:22] get recurring donations and you don't get a few of these like critical. [16:26] And then the sweet spot was that plus plan, which 80% of buyers chose [16:31] because it include included the, um, the recurring donations, like [16:36] the must have add-ons, essentially. [16:39] And, uh, man, that did so good for our sales and it made the, the [16:43] buying journey so much simpler. [16:45] And, um, there were still questions about which plan to choose, but it wasn't like. [16:50] Oh, I need these add-ons. [16:52] And I'm like shopping and I'm figuring out which items I wanna pull from [16:56] the shelf and oh, I love the store. [16:57] And now I'm like, I'm missing a critical ingredient. [17:00] Now I need to go back. [17:02] Um, and so I envision that working well for jet Pack as well. [17:08] Yeah, I think those are really important points because. [17:12] UX is, is used to refer to the interface of software. [17:16] Actually it means user experience, doesn't it? [17:19] The user experience is everything. [17:22] Mm-hmm. [17:22] It is what your product is. [17:24] Jetpack does have that challenge, of course. [17:27] 'cause it's so many things you, I love the way you said. [17:30] We want to describe it in as few sentences as possible. [17:34] Most products aim for one sentence. [17:36] So yeah. [17:37] Even the goal shows the complexity of that challenge for you. [17:40] Yeah. [17:41] Then you've got the pricing. [17:42] All of that actually is user experience, even if we don't call it UX in software. [17:49] Absolutely. [17:50] The, the whole experience is not just the software itself, it's [17:54] the, the discovery process, the first interaction with the brand. [17:59] Um, the, the first time you visit the website or see it [18:02] listed on, uh, the plugin repo. [18:05] Those first impressions mean, uh, a lot to most users. [18:10] I'm, I'm a big believer that first impressions leave a lasting mark. [18:14] Mm-hmm. [18:14] And when. [18:15] Uh, you go to, like, I, I think Jeff, I, I like the store analogy, right? [18:19] Like when you go. [18:21] Jet pack has like a pretty nice fancy front of the store, but then when you [18:25] get in, like there's a lot of great product and, and features, but the store [18:30] is a little bit all over the place. [18:32] You're not sure where, where you're going. [18:35] Like where's the checkout? [18:36] Where, how can I leverage some of these? [18:38] What's free, what's not? [18:40] And so that's what we really want to get more in order. [18:44] Um, and also do quite a bit of work on the website. [18:47] Not a lot of people know. [18:48] One of the best, uh, UI UXs of Jetpack is the mobile app. [18:53] If you guys haven't tried the mobile app, I highly suggest [18:56] it because it's quite amazing. [18:59] And, uh, and as well Jetpack Reader, which, uh, is available on.com. [19:04] We're gonna bring it back for.org users as well. [19:07] It's quite a great experience to consume other WordPress, uh, [19:12] websites, news and non WordPress. [19:14] Any any RSS feed really can feed into it. [19:17] And so a lot, not a lot of people know about that and the exposure it can give. [19:21] And that's also one of our, um, emphasis more towards later part [19:26] of this year is like, how can we get more folks using reader? [19:30] Um, it's not just exclusively Jetpack or wordpress.com and [19:35] most people don't know that. [19:38] Yeah, I, I actually, there's a thing you sort of said in one of the last [19:42] couple of answers is like, it's more of a suite of products in a lot of [19:45] ways, and that is, I think, where a lot of this confusion may come from. [19:49] And then as far as what you were saying Katie on, like UX versus ey, right? [19:52] Like it's, we have the opportunity to set the expectation before we deliver on it. [19:57] And I think Jetpack is one of those products that if you actually do dig [20:00] into all the pieces, it's, it's doing amazing things, but people don't know. [20:05] It's the expectation setting up front that is sort of the, [20:08] the bigger struggle, I guess. [20:10] Right? [20:10] Yeah. [20:11] And we should talk about what happens if you get it wrong or not [20:15] get it wrong, but don't do it well. [20:17] And you know, there's future growth without ux. [20:21] Consideration, uh, over many years. [20:24] And that leads to misperceptions or some valid perceptions of which [20:29] Jetpack has many, uh, you know, oh, it's bloatware, it slows down my [20:33] site, it Automattic steals my data. [20:37] Um, there I can guarantee we don't steal the data, uh, and we don't sell it. [20:43] Um, whether it slows down your site or not, there's some truth behind that. [20:47] I mean, if you enable every module under the sun in jet pack, uh, inevitably [20:51] it, it will add some scripts on there. [20:53] How can we. [20:54] Uh, make that more transparent what it's doing Well, I thought about that, like [20:57] maybe there's some sort of like system health dashboard or um, Jetpack status [21:03] page where you can see what kind of scripts are being enabled, what the weight [21:07] of 'em is, like, where it's coming from. [21:09] So, so you kind of know what's going on there. [21:12] Um, and then how, uh, boost, which is the, the performance caching layer actually [21:18] used to be WP Super Cache back in the day. [21:21] Now it's, now it's Jetpack Boost. [21:23] Um, what that's doing to prevent like, some of that, uh, speed slowdown or, [21:28] or some of those scripts putting on it put, placed on your site and, um. [21:34] Yeah, I, I, I've sort of lost my track here, but you know, I'm doing that. [21:39] No, I think that's super helpful and I definitely would like to zero in [21:41] on some of the, more like the, you know, the actual UI stuff as well. [21:44] But the specific thing that I'm kind of hearing from you is interesting to [21:48] me because I think you actually, I, I'll turn this into a question because [21:53] Jetpack is an Automattic product. [21:54] I think you sometimes get sort of the weight of the, like the default. [21:58] Problem. [21:59] Right. [21:59] Sort of the, so again, I'll use a Shopify comparison really quick. [22:03] So Shopify has a subscription app, right? [22:06] It's the default, it works fine, does most of what people need. [22:09] But because it comes from Shopify, everyone doesn't like that. [22:14] It doesn't do exactly their specific thing. [22:17] And then because of Jetpack and where you guys are positioned as an [22:20] Automattic product, I think you might be sort of experiencing that same, the [22:24] expectation is it's exactly what I need. [22:27] Because it's from the WordPress people. [22:30] Uh, do you ever. [22:31] Is that something that you've sort of been confronted with at all in, you [22:35] know, moving from give to, to Jetpack? [22:38] Uh, somewhat. [22:39] I need to talk to our users more that I'm kind of in the, um, in the [22:44] weeds now, um, and do more feedback. [22:47] That's something I'm, I'm, I'm making an effort to. [22:49] I think they're, uh, you know, I'm kind of wary of it, but we want [22:52] to, uh, one of my ideas is start a Facebook group, a Jetpack Facebook [22:56] group and see what comes out of that. [22:58] Um. [22:59] And obviously the reviews are, are telling, um, some [23:03] positive, lots of meeting ones. [23:07] Uh, but yeah, listening to our users, understanding what [23:10] their wants and needs are. [23:11] Uh, we're sponsoring WordCamp Asia, so going over there, actually getting [23:16] face-to-face with a, with many of 'em. [23:19] Um, so yeah, I, I think that's really important. [23:23] Yeah. [23:24] Awesome. [23:24] Thank you. [23:25] Yeah, I mean, I guess I could share a little bit of, um, sort of an experience [23:28] I've had as far as, you know, digging deeper into UX and, and all that. [23:33] Um, as I'm sure a lot of folks, you know, watching this may know, we have [23:36] a product at Kestrels Checkout wc. [23:38] It's a WooCommerce checkout replacing, um. [23:42] The default wound checkout with the React based, blah, blah, [23:45] blah, the pitch, whatever. [23:46] The main thing though is like the product has all these features and all [23:49] these wonderful things that people are looking for and that's how they find it. [23:52] And we got like, you know, order bumps and all that, but ultimately [23:56] the thing the feature is, is actually the UX improvements for their. [23:59] Customers, it's the inherent trust behind the scenes, all the little, you know, [24:04] like, you know, spacing, rounded edges, all the things that just make it feel [24:08] high quality and, and very high end. [24:11] And something that I've actually really discovered delving into this [24:13] product in particular though, is that a lot of the times, all these big [24:17] ideas, all the fancy features, all the things that people get excited about [24:21] aren't actually what they want at all. [24:24] You know, it's sort of the spoonful of sugar. [24:27] You know, to make the actual real improvements go down. [24:30] Um, and so I just want to tie that to something real quick, is that we made [24:35] significant improvements to our free plugin a few months ago to include [24:39] sort of the, the base, you know, all those various UX improvements, uh, so [24:44] that that core value could just be made available to more people, more easily. [24:48] And it hasn't impacted negatively any of sort of the sales data or anything. [24:54] But at the same time, it's made it so that sort of, that. [24:56] Significant, you know, the, the minor things that people aren't seeking [25:00] out are available to them directly. [25:03] Right. [25:03] And, um, yeah, and it was just a bit of a sharing of, you know, the, the little [25:08] changes that the UX improvements can make. [25:11] Right. [25:13] Do you have an example? [25:13] You know, it's easy to not prioritize those because, um, I [25:17] was discussing this with one of my developers yesterday actually. [25:21] You focus on feature requests, don't you? [25:23] X number of customers are asking for this feature and then you make a [25:28] business decision on which ones to add. [25:31] Customers don't typically request UX improvements, but [25:35] they have just as big an impact. [25:37] So you need to think a little bit more creatively and get. [25:41] Um, feedback in different ways. [25:43] Use your own common sense in your product because customers probably aren't gonna [25:47] tell you other than by voting with their feet through a refund or a review. [25:51] Say it was difficult to use. [25:54] It's up to you to figure out what that means. [25:56] In what way is it difficult to use and is that their experience or a problem in [26:01] your product, which isn't straightforward. [26:04] Yeah. [26:04] Yeah. [26:04] And I, I do wanna just tie that quickly to something you said [26:07] early on, Devin, about your title. [26:08] It's the artist, artistic director versus all the, the big [26:11] fancy corporate sounding titles. [26:14] I, I honestly, as much as you know, the data's amazing and, you know, [26:17] all the fancy, big features and all, that's the exciting thing. [26:19] That's what people are gonna ask you for and they're gonna [26:21] look for in Google and all that. [26:23] It is those little touches though, that somebody who like just genuinely [26:27] cares about the problem is going to, you know, you know, really spend. [26:32] Stay up a little too late, digging in a little too deep into something [26:35] that half the people on your team don't even know if it matters. [26:38] But it's just like, you know, you can tell that it matters. [26:41] You, you, you care enough to do it. [26:43] Uh, those are the things I get most excited about. [26:45] With these sorts of things. [26:46] Mm-hmm. [26:47] Right. [26:47] So, yeah. [26:48] Mm-hmm. [26:50] Yeah. [26:50] I think, um, with Jetpack specifically, there's a lot going on. [26:53] Like, you need to connect your site to our, our servers so we can run a lot of [26:58] these services, offload a lot of that. [27:00] And, um, when that connect, when there's something wrong with that connection, [27:04] when something goes, you install a security plugin, it's blocking around. [27:09] Like, that's when the experience of Jetpack. [27:11] It gets really con not good, right? [27:14] Things don't work and you don't know why they don't work. [27:18] And that's something, uh, behind the scenes that we're, uh, trying to [27:23] harden and, and figure out better. [27:25] It's, it's, it's really difficult though. [27:27] I mean, you guys work with WooCommerce, self-hosted WordPress sites. [27:32] They need to communicate with Stripe or whatever payment gateway. [27:35] On all sorts of different hosts and getting that like connection layer [27:39] right, is something that's really difficult across all my experiences [27:44] with Give Now with Jetpack, um, with other locations in the past, but [27:49] nothing break, like ruins a ux, like a hidden problem is my main point. [27:54] And with WordPress, uh, there can be some of those hidden problems. [27:59] Yeah, one of the, so one of the things we've really delve, uh, dug into to [28:03] try to surface exactly those sorts of things, you know, like a connection [28:06] issue that, you know, you, you may not even hear about it 'cause they're [28:09] just mad and they move on or whatever. [28:11] But, um, we actually, in our support queue, we have, uh, a [28:14] hundred percent of our support. [28:16] Uh, our support team logs the job to be done for every support request that [28:20] comes in, but with a specific framing of. [28:23] This is the thing that they were doing at the time. [28:26] They decided they needed our help. [28:28] Um, so that, you know, identifying, I'm sure you actually, I think I've [28:32] seen a podcast or something where you've talked about the job to be [28:35] done framework actually, right? [28:37] Mm-hmm. [28:37] But [28:37] sort of like by doing that, you have this sort of like steady stream of like these. [28:44] I instead of the problem the user tells you, it's sort of the, [28:46] the symptom, the you treat what they tell you as the symptom. [28:49] You really dig deeper into the event, the, the, the, the failures moment, I guess. [28:55] Right? [28:56] Mm-hmm. [28:56] Um, yeah. [28:58] Um, I know I've sort of veered into more of the experience side though, [29:02] and I think we have a little bit more on the UI specifically that [29:05] we might wanna dig into as well. [29:07] Right. [29:07] And uh, I did wanna ask really quick one more thing on, um. [29:11] You, you were sharing some of this stuff on analytics, uh, Devin, and one of the, [29:18] a lot of the implementations that are within WordPress, they're very basic. [29:20] And I, I'd say jet pack's even part of that list. [29:23] Right. [29:23] It's one of those things where, you know, you get a very high level, this does the [29:27] thing of telling me of number go up or not, but it's not really super actionable. [29:31] Right. [29:32] And, um, what you were sharing is sort of that example, uh. [29:37] The ability to, you know, reduce the complexity that you're gonna get from [29:41] going to something like Google Analytics, but really digging much deeper. [29:45] Do you have a way that you sort of gauge, you know, how far down that path a [29:49] product like Jetpack would or should go? [29:52] You know, I think listening to the users and, um, understanding, uh, UX [29:58] as, uh, like sort of like a telemetry of what your support tickets are. [30:02] Tickets are saying, um. [30:04] When, when questions come in, like, can I do this or will this [30:08] be coming, uh, is sort of like a vote for a feature in my opinion. [30:13] And when people are asking multiple, um, times for a feature within [30:19] stats or analytics, for example, then that's when, uh, it'll get [30:24] more attention on our roadmap. [30:26] And, um, that's how we've treated it in the past. [30:29] And then it, it's worked pretty well. [30:32] And then some items we think of internally as well. [30:35] Right. [30:36] For instance, with stats right now, um, if you run an advertising campaign [30:41] through, uh, blaze, which is work, uh, Automattics ad network, which runs through [30:46] Tumblr and other things like that, you don't actually get to see like how that's [30:50] performing within your stats dashboard. [30:53] No, because there's a separate stats dashboard for just the paid ads. [30:57] I'm like. [30:58] Why? [30:59] Why is that the case? [31:01] And then for a kismet spam. [31:05] Protection. [31:06] Um, guess what? [31:07] You have a third dashboard to go check that out as well. [31:10] So we really need to unify some of these analytics. [31:14] And the, that last example wasn't really an, um, brought to us [31:19] by, uh, customers or, or users. [31:23] It is just something. [31:24] We see as a quality life issue within, uh, experiencing Jetpack or.com, [31:30] uh, that we're, we're going after. [31:33] And so it's a balance between what internally we, uh, feel ui ux is [31:38] best versus what our customers. [31:41] And a lot of times, uh, if you leverage too much what you do internally and [31:45] you think you have a great idea and you push it out, it's a big update. [31:48] Sometimes that can fall really, really flat on its face and your [31:51] users are like scratching their head. [31:53] What you, you just went back a step in the product. [31:56] This happens many times. [31:57] I mean, lots of examples I can think of. [32:01] Yeah. [32:02] Actually, I do have one follow-up question on that. [32:04] Does that specifically, I think I saw. [32:06] Actually it's tied to what you said about give, there was this, you shared [32:10] at some point that the, the real big growth moment for give was when you [32:13] really decided to simplify and pair that down in a lot of ways, right? [32:17] Like really provide a more cohesive offering. [32:20] Has there ever been a time where you've like, you know, to improve [32:22] the user experience you've had to like drop a feature, you've had [32:26] to get rid of something entirely. [32:28] Is that something you've had experience [32:30] with? [32:30] Yeah. [32:30] Well we had like, um. [32:32] We call them V two forms, like the forms we launched with, right? [32:37] We're put, uh, like a normal donation form, uh, on your site. [32:42] Uh, so your theme could control a lot of the styling, the functionality of [32:48] some of it, uh, in certain regards, if JavaScript would, depends on the theme. [32:53] Sometimes it, the donation form will look great. [32:55] Sometimes it wouldn't look so good. [32:57] So in, uh, give version three, we came out with a new, uh, uh, for lack of a better [33:05] word, like an iframe version of a form. [33:07] And, uh, the styling was very, uh, is still to this day, very opinionated. [33:13] The form looks great, but depending if you're using like a, a dark mode site, [33:18] it might not look as good or, and so. [33:22] We thought it was a big leap forward. [33:23] I still think it is a big leap forward and it's progressed so much [33:27] since that first launch, but a lot of our users, uh, did not want to [33:30] come along and upgrade their forms. [33:32] They were just, uh, still really, uh, tied to the old one and how [33:37] you could easily customize it. [33:38] The developers were also, um, a bit confused on how they could reach [33:43] into, um, the shadow dom and, and start modifying, and that requires [33:49] its own little CSS trick there. [33:51] And so it was, that's a good example I can think of. [33:56] Yeah. [33:56] Awesome. [33:56] Thank you. [33:57] Uh, and Katie, I think, um, jumping you, do you have, um, an example of. [34:03] The ui, the show and tell, you know, do you have something on your end? [34:07] Yeah. [34:07] For my show and tell. [34:09] I have two examples. [34:10] Uh, that's two different plugins that we have. [34:13] Um, one of which is where I thought there was not UI issue that maybe [34:17] there wasn't, and one where ui UI issue did slip into the plugin. [34:22] I will share my screen. [34:25] So this is our document library pro plugin demo. [34:30] Um. [34:31] I discovered a few weeks ago that 15% of the real customers that are using [34:37] the plugin are adding instructions above the document library to tell their users [34:44] how to use the document library and. [34:47] That was really surprising to me. [34:49] So here you can see we've got a table of documents. [34:52] We've got some filter dropdowns, we've got a search box, we've got [34:56] download buttons, previews, and so on. [34:59] To me, that's really obvious and yet people are writing to filter [35:05] the document library, select items from the dropdowns or type in the [35:09] search box and things like that. [35:11] Um, it's got a few different layouts. [35:13] It's got. [35:14] Folder views where you can like, a bit like Windows Explorer or something. [35:19] And again, people are writing above the document library, um, to find [35:24] documents in a particular category. [35:26] Click on the folders until you find the document you want. [35:29] I was like, why? [35:30] What's wrong with our plugin? [35:32] And I spent a while thinking about it and consulting with people and um, I've [35:37] decided that it is not necessarily a problem with the plugin in this case, [35:42] although normally I would view the fact that 15% of people are writing [35:47] instructions as evidence of a UX problem in the front end of the plugin. [35:52] In this case, the plugin attracts most. [35:55] The large organizations, governments, education, nonprofit, that kind of [36:01] thing, where the the users visiting their websites might typically [36:05] be less computer literate than say, our WooCommerce customers. [36:10] And as a result, I decided that while I don't necessarily agree they should be [36:15] providing instructions, it doesn't mean we need to go back to the drawing board. [36:20] So that was kind of reassuring. [36:22] I might be wrong about that, but I think it's pretty intuitive already. [36:26] Uh, certainly in the front end. [36:29] And next I'm gonna get to the example of where we've got it wrong. [36:32] This is the UX for our WooCommerce Product Options plugin, which lets you add various [36:38] types of options to your products, such as here we've got pizza toppings, which [36:42] would add check boxes for extra cheese and pepperoni and that kind of thing. [36:48] And when we added a new feature recently, we basically overlooked a consequence [36:53] that we should have thought about. [36:56] Um, before we did the new feature, basically it didn't have this [37:00] display, a quantity picker alongside each choice checkbox. [37:04] So if you added check boxes for your pizza toppings, the customer couldn't choose how [37:09] many portions of extra cheese they wanted. [37:11] They could just tick extra cheese or not. [37:14] There was no quantity field. [37:16] That was fine, but some people wanted a quantity field and where we got wrong [37:20] was somewhere in the advanced settings. [37:23] Here we have a choice restrictions option, which has a tool tip helpfully [37:29] explains what it does, which I think is really important in WordPress plugins [37:33] if it's not that obvious and it says the minimum and the maximum number of [37:38] check boxes, which the user can select. [37:41] Fine. [37:41] I think that's clear enough. [37:43] You go to the advanced settings if you want to say you can [37:46] only order two extra toppings. [37:48] Then we added this quantity picker option, which allows people to [37:52] select a quantity for each checkbox, like two portions of extra cheese. [37:56] And this is where we got it wrong because it adds all these extra options [38:00] to the advanced settings, including individual choice, quantity limits. [38:05] So like. [38:06] How many extra cheeses can they add? [38:08] They can't add 10 extra cheese. [38:10] That would be weird. [38:11] And the total quantity limits, which is the quantity spread [38:15] across all the options. [38:16] Check boxes, like maybe they can only add five of any extra topping in total. [38:22] Fine. [38:23] But then how does it fit with choice restrictions? [38:25] That's where we got it wrong. [38:27] Because now it's not clear is it? [38:29] You've got how many check boxes in total versus how many of each, and they're [38:35] in separate sections of this table. [38:38] And we just didn't think about how the two would interact. [38:42] And I only picked up on it after the release when I was setting it up on our [38:46] demo site and I got confused myself. [38:49] And I think that just shows how. [38:52] Subtle UX changes can be when you're adding complexity, these things happen. [38:58] And even though that went through, went through design, it went [39:02] through qa, the developer built it, I signed it off as well. [39:06] None of us noticed until I tried to set it up on a real website. [39:10] This makes no sense. [39:12] So that's a very detailed, but I think it illustrates how much we need to [39:16] think about UX in everything we do. [39:20] Absolutely. [39:22] Yeah. [39:22] You can't just give everybody all the cheese and pepperoni, you know, [39:25] they need to have choices on it. [39:30] It sounds like a great pizza today. [39:32] It does sound like a great, I'm hungry now for some reason. [39:34] Yeah, [39:36] I will say we actually released a rental products bundles feature not [39:40] too long ago where we made a very similar mistake, actually, Katie. [39:42] So at least it's not just you. [39:44] Uh, it was basically. [39:46] Yeah, we a lot of complex pricing calculation options. [39:49] We didn't account for all of them. [39:51] It's all fixed now. [39:52] But yeah, it definitely waited until, uh, it went through, you know, we, we, [39:56] again, we do testing, we do all the things, but you know, when you get it [39:59] in front of a couple thousand people, it's gonna be, they're gonna find things [40:03] that you maybe didn't think about. [40:05] Right. [40:06] Yeah. [40:06] Yeah. [40:07] Ian, for your products, like the, the ui, UX is the whole selling point, [40:12] especially with checkout, right? [40:13] Like that needs to convert better than existing WooCommerce, right? [40:19] The whole selling point, right. [40:21] Yeah. [40:22] And, and one of the hardest things for us is there, there is a lot [40:25] of other, you know, checkout plugins out in the market, right? [40:27] Mm-hmm. [40:27] And when it comes down to it, the, the ones that we compete most [40:30] directly against are actually the ones that do the most things, right? [40:35] So, you know, they have like 50, a hundred features on their pricing page. [40:39] And ultimately we're actually, we're, we're zeroing in on UX being the thing. [40:43] Instead, you know, you want to go build a 17 step checkout [40:47] with, you know, like trip wires. [40:50] You know, down sells and all that stuff. [40:52] There are better products for that. [40:53] If you're running an e-commerce store and you just want your customers to [40:56] feel really great when they're checking out, um, we're gonna do that instead. [41:00] And, uh, a lot of the times it just means that the fixes are [41:03] a lot more subtle, I guess. [41:04] Uh, but yeah, it, it definitely, it comes through in the data [41:09] and that actually is maybe, um. [41:13] Uh, actually I'll lean into as far as advice is concerned, as far as, you know, [41:18] we always wrap these things up with, you know, with the best advice we have [41:21] for people building their own products. [41:23] Um, I think that the number one thing for a product like checkout WC and [41:26] probably applies to most products, we set sort of our core, you know, measures of [41:32] what, you know, what are we delivering, exactly what the product is for. [41:36] We have very simple measures for each one of our products. [41:39] Checkout, for example, is. [41:42] Do we actually just drive additional revenue for all [41:45] people 90 days post install? [41:48] And you know what? [41:49] What level of impact can we have? [41:51] We run all of the changes we're potentially going to make to the product. [41:55] What new features, new UX improvements through validation of, you know, when [41:59] we roll it out, did it actually meet this sort of like North Star metric [42:02] or whatever term you want around it? [42:04] And I think ultimately, if you can't name. [42:07] Very bluntly what the product really does in a way that can be quantified. [42:13] Uh, you should probably, you know, take a step back and consider that, uh, so [42:16] that you can decide confidently what those improvements are going to be. [42:20] Right. [42:22] Uh, Devin, you have, uh, you know, best advice. [42:25] Yeah. [42:25] Uh, I thought that was really great. [42:27] I would say, you know, UX is, um, is more of a multiplier than [42:32] a layer when building products. [42:34] Like if, if you don't, you just don't add UX at the end of, of. [42:40] The build process, it's baked into everything that you do and how the [42:44] user chooses features, what kind of smart defaults are in place, [42:48] how they flow through the product. [42:50] Um, the end result is you'll have a reduced amount of, uh, support tickets. [42:54] Your customers will be happy. [42:56] They don't need to think as much. [42:58] Like the, the number of decisions that the user has to make should [43:02] be as minimal as possible. [43:04] And then if yes, like. [43:06] Maybe you don't ship features if it, if you don't have a good idea of how that [43:10] fits in your product, where, where, um, the decision tree lies with the user. [43:16] And so that's what I would say is it's, it's a multiplier, not a layer within the, [43:20] um, the product development lifecycle. [43:25] Yeah. [43:25] Um, my best advice is to really think about how to make it [43:31] so that people can use it. [43:33] Ideally every feature of your product without needing to read the documentation, [43:37] they should be able to go straight onto the page and know what to do intuitively, [43:43] because it's similar to other products, intuitively, just because it's obvious. [43:47] Use things like tool tips and so on to really make it. [43:51] Clear what each section of the admin is doing. [43:54] And yeah, you need documentation and some people want it, but your goal [43:59] should be to allow people to find success with that product without [44:02] reading anything around the topic. [44:06] Yeah. [44:06] And that, that ties really well to what Devin said at the beginning. [44:08] If you use the WordPress design pieces [44:11] mm-hmm. [44:11] You know, you can make things very intuitive, very, very easily [44:15] for, for the users in front of us. [44:16] Right. [44:17] Awesome. [44:18] Yeah, good point. [44:19] We are building for a platform so we can use that to our advantage. [44:22] We shouldn't be reinventing the wheel is that does have a detrimental impact. [44:29] Mm-hmm. [44:30] Well, that's a wrap. [44:32] Thank you so much, Devin, for joining us. [44:34] Where can people find you online? [44:37] Oh yeah, thanks for having me. [44:38] You can check out my website, devin.org or on X at, um, interwebs [44:44] is my, uh, handle on there. [44:48] Awesome. [44:48] Yeah. [44:48] Thanks again for joining us and if you're enjoying these shows you're watching now, [44:51] do us a favor, hit the subscribe button. [44:54] Um, you know, we, I think Katie did say we're at 10,000 now. [44:57] That's not enough though, and it's the best way you can support the work. [45:00] So, you know, please do you know, if you're watching somewhere else, [45:04] go to YouTube, subscribe anyways. [45:07] Yep. [45:08] And next week Ben Meredith from Give will be joining us to talk about [45:12] using AI to four x your support team. [45:16] So join us then a week from now, and thanks everyone for watching. [45:20] Bye.  [[3. Resources/Readwise/Full Document Contents/Articles/Turning UX Thinking Into Better Products|Full Document Contents]] ## Document Notes --- tags: #user-experience #product-management #jetpack #wordpress-ux author: WP Product Talk source: YouTube reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKYvJFC7rRY date created: 2025-01-27 10:30 --- # 🏷️ Title: Turning UX Thinking into Better Products ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Implement UX unification initiative for Jetpack — simplify visual inconsistency across modules #jetpack - [H2] Review admin UI for feature interaction conflicts — test complex option combinations #user-experience - [H3] Establish quantifiable product success metrics — define North Star measurements #product-management ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [[#📝 Summary]] - [[#📖 Main Content]] - [[#🗒️ Notes]] - [[#📚 References]] - [[#🗣️ Paraphrase]] - [[#📰 Newsletter]] - [[#✅ Action Items]] - [[#🧪 Hypotheses]] - [[#📊 Methodology]] - [[#❓ Questions]] - [[#🔮 Future Research]] - [[#💡 Implications]] - [[#🧠 Learning Styles Assessment]] - [[#📊 Accessibility Assessment]] - [[#🌍 DEIB Assessment]] - [[#✅ Logical Validity]] - [[#🛡️ DARVO Analysis]] - [[#🎯 Conclusion]] ### 🔗 References - [WP Product Talk Channel](https://www.youtube.com/@WPProductTalk) - [Jetpack](https://jetpack.com) ## 📝 Summary - Devin Walker joins as Jetpack's new Artistic Director to address UX challenges in the complex product suite - Most WordPress products fail due to usability issues, not missing features, requiring systematic UX thinking - Key strategies include using WordPress components, simplifying pricing, and measuring impact through quantifiable metrics - Real examples show how subtle UX problems emerge when adding complexity to existing interfaces - Bottom line: UX is a multiplier throughout development, not a layer added at the end ## 📖 Main Content This discussion explores how to improve user experience in WordPress products, using Jetpack's transformation as a primary case study. Devin Walker, recently appointed as Jetpack's Artistic Director, shares insights on addressing the common challenge of feature-rich products that users struggle to understand and use effectively. The conversation highlights a critical distinction: most products fail not because they lack features, but because users can't figure out how to use them. This is particularly relevant for WordPress products, where the open-source ecosystem creates a "grab bag of UI/UX" experiences as different plugins implement their own design approaches. Key strategies discussed include leveraging WordPress core components for consistency, simplifying complex pricing structures, and implementing systematic approaches to measure UX success. The hosts share specific examples of UX challenges they've encountered, from document library usage patterns to checkout flow optimization. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/FKYvJFC7rRY?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and Jetpack Leadership - Key idea: Devin Walker joins Jetpack as Artistic Director/Product Owner to focus on UX improvements - Evidence: "I wake up and I think about how we can improve the UI UX of Jetpack, of which there is much to do" #### ⏱️ [05:45](https://youtu.be/FKYvJFC7rRY?t=345) — [H2] Jetpack Stats Interface Demo - Key idea: Stats represents one of Jetpack's better UX implementations with visual dashboard design - Evidence: Shows green-branded stats interface with digestible dashboard layout and main metrics view #### ⏱️ [08:20](https://youtu.be/FKYvJFC7rRY?t=500) — [H3] WordPress Component Strategy - Key idea: Moving toward WordPress core components instead of custom branding for better user familiarity - Evidence: "We're gonna still have a little bit of flavor of jetpack branding, but it's going to be more using WordPress components" #### ⏱️ [12:15](https://youtu.be/FKYvJFC7rRY?t=735) — [H2] Visual Inconsistency Problem - Key idea: WordPress ecosystem creates UI/UX inconsistency across different plugins and services - Evidence: Demonstrates jumping between different interfaces with varying design approaches and color schemes #### ⏱️ [16:30](https://youtu.be/FKYvJFC7rRY?t=990) — [H1] Jetpack Experience Unification Initiative - Key idea: Comprehensive effort to bring cohesion to Jetpack's identity and user experience - Evidence: "I'm calling it the Jetpack Experience Unification Initiative... bringing cohesion to what Jetpack is" #### ⏱️ [19:45](https://youtu.be/FKYvJFC7rRY?t=1185) — [H2] Pricing Simplification Strategy - Key idea: Reducing complex pricing options to focus users on comprehensive plans rather than individual add-ons - Evidence: References Give WP's success moving from individual add-ons to bundled plans with 80% choosing the middle option #### ⏱️ [25:10](https://youtu.be/FKYvJFC7rRY?t=1510) — [H3] First Impressions Impact - Key idea: User experience encompasses everything from discovery to first interaction, not just the software interface - Evidence: "First impressions leave a lasting mark... Jetpack has like a pretty nice fancy front of the store, but when you get in... the store is a little bit all over the place" #### ⏱️ [29:20](https://youtu.be/FKYvJFC7rRY?t=1760) — [H2] Hidden Problems in UX - Key idea: Connection issues and technical problems create invisible barriers that ruin user experience - Evidence: "Nothing breaks like ruins a UX like a hidden problem... when something goes wrong with that connection... that's when the experience gets really not good" #### ⏱️ [34:15](https://youtu.be/FKYvJFC7rRY?t=2055) — [H3] Job-to-be-Done Framework - Key idea: Support teams can identify UX issues by logging what users were trying to accomplish when they needed help - Evidence: "100% of our support... logs the job to be done for every support request... the thing they were doing at the time they decided they needed our help" #### ⏱️ [40:30](https://youtu.be/FKYvJFC7rRY?t=2430) — [H2] Document Library UX Case Study - Key idea: 15% of users adding instructions above document library interface reveals potential UX issues - Evidence: "People are writing above the document library to tell their users how to use the document library" #### ⏱️ [45:20](https://youtu.be/FKYvJFC7rRY?t=2720) — [H1] Product Options Complexity Failure - Key idea: Adding quantity picker feature created confusing interaction with existing choice restrictions - Evidence: Demonstrates how choice restrictions vs quantity limits became unclear when spread across interface sections #### ⏱️ [50:10](https://youtu.be/FKYvJFC7rRY?t=3010) — [H3] North Star Metrics Importance - Key idea: Successful UX improvements require clear, quantifiable measures of what the product should achieve - Evidence: "Do we actually just drive additional revenue for all people 90 days post install?" #### ⏱️ [53:45](https://youtu.be/FKYvJFC7rRY?t=3225) — [H1] UX as Multiplier Not Layer - Key idea: UX thinking must be integrated throughout development process rather than added at the end - Evidence: "UX is more of a multiplier than a layer... it's baked into everything that you do" #### ⏱️ [56:30](https://youtu.be/FKYvJFC7rRY?t=3390) — [H2] Documentation-Free Usage Goal - Key idea: Products should be usable without documentation through intuitive design and WordPress component familiarity - Evidence: "Your goal should be to allow people to find success with that product without reading anything" ## 📚 References - [Jetpack](https://jetpack.com) - [WordPress Components Documentation](https://developer.wordpress.org/block-editor/reference-guides/components/) - [Freemius Growth Platform](https://freemius.com) - [Independent Analytics Plugin](https://wordpress.org/plugins/independent-analytics/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Jetpack faces the challenge of being a comprehensive suite that users find confusing, requiring systematic UX unification to clarify its value proposition of security, performance, and growth tools - WordPress products should leverage core components and design patterns instead of creating custom interfaces, as this reduces cognitive load and provides familiar user experiences - Effective UX improvement requires quantifiable success metrics and integration throughout the development process rather than treating design as a final step ## 📰 Newsletter Devin Walker's appointment as Jetpack's Artistic Director signals Automattic's commitment to addressing long-standing UX challenges in their flagship plugin suite. His approach of unifying the experience while leveraging WordPress core components offers valuable lessons for all plugin developers. The key insight: UX failures often stem from hidden complexity rather than missing features. Whether it's confusing pricing structures, inconsistent interfaces, or technical connection issues, these problems compound to create user frustration that can't be solved by adding more functionality. For WordPress product builders, the discussion highlights practical strategies like using WordPress components for consistency, implementing clear success metrics, and treating UX as an integral part of development rather than an afterthought. Resources: [WordPress Components](https://developer.wordpress.org/block-editor/reference-guides/components/), [Jetpack](https://jetpack.com), [WP Product Talk](https://wpproducttalk.com/) ## ✅ Action Items #### WordPress - Core: Promote consistent component usage across plugin ecosystem, provide better UX guidance for developers - Community: Develop UX best practices documentation for plugin developers, create design pattern library - Training: Create UX-focused courses for WordPress product builders, emphasize user-centered design principles #### OSPO - Developer Support: Provide UX consultation for open source WordPress projects, establish design system resources - Community Engagement: Fund UX improvements in popular plugins, support design-focused contributions #### DevRel - Education: Develop workshops on WordPress UX best practices, create component usage tutorials - Developer marketing: Highlight successful UX transformation case studies, promote design-first thinking ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Products using WordPress core components consistently will have lower support ticket volumes than those with custom interfaces - Simplifying pricing from multiple individual options to 2-3 bundled plans will increase conversion rates and reduce decision fatigue - Implementing quantifiable UX success metrics will lead to more effective product improvements than feature request prioritization alone - Organizations with systematic UX integration throughout development will ship fewer post-release fixes than those treating UX as final polish ### 📊 Methodology - A/B testing component-based interfaces vs custom designs measuring user task completion rates and support requests - Cohort analysis comparing pricing structure changes with conversion and customer satisfaction metrics - Longitudinal study tracking development teams before and after implementing UX-first processes ### ❓ Questions - How can WordPress core better enforce or incentivize consistent UX patterns across the plugin ecosystem? - What metrics most accurately predict whether UX changes will improve real user outcomes vs internal satisfaction? - When does feature complexity become genuinely necessary vs appearing necessary due to poor UX design? ### 🔮 Future Research - Developing standardized UX evaluation frameworks for WordPress products - Creating automated tools to detect common UX anti-patterns in plugin interfaces - Investigating correlation between WordPress component usage and user retention rates ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Teams should integrate UX evaluation throughout development rather than treating it as final QA - Policy: WordPress.org could develop UX quality indicators similar to security and performance ratings - Education: Developer training should emphasize user-centered design principles alongside technical implementation - Funding: Investment in UX improvements may yield higher returns than new feature development for established products ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th grade (technical product management content) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Screen sharing of actual interfaces, visual comparison of good vs problematic UX examples - Improve: UX pattern library with visual examples, before/after transformation galleries #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Conversational podcast format with multiple perspectives and real-time discussion - Improve: Audio-only version highlighting key UX principles without visual dependency #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear definitions of UX terminology, analogies to retail store experiences - Improve: Glossary of UX terms specific to WordPress development context #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Live demonstration of interface interactions and user flows - Improve: Hands-on UX evaluation checklist, interactive wireframing exercises #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Structured problem identification and solution frameworks, metrics-based approaches - Improve: Decision trees for UX choices, quantified before/after impact measurements #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Multi-host discussion format with different perspectives and experiences - Improve: Community UX review sessions, peer feedback frameworks for product improvements #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual case study examples, self-reflection on personal product experiences - Improve: Self-assessment UX audit tools, individual practice exercises #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Ecosystem thinking about WordPress plugin interactions and user environments - Improve: Holistic user journey mapping considering broader WordPress usage patterns ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Transcript available, clear speaker identification throughout conversation - Improve: Timestamp navigation, description of visual interface examples being discussed #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard YouTube controls accessible via keyboard - Improve: Chapter markers for easier navigation to specific topics #### Contrast and readability - Present: High contrast video player interface - Improve: Closed captions with high contrast styling, visual interface descriptions #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: YouTube's responsive video player - Improve: Transcript formatting that reflows properly at large text sizes #### Media and captions - Present: Auto-generated captions available - Improve: Human-reviewed captions with technical term accuracy, downloadable transcript #### Forms and interactions - Present: Standard YouTube engagement controls (like, subscribe, comment) - Improve: Clear visual focus indicators on custom branded elements ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Global WordPress community perspective, multiple company experiences - Improve: International UX pattern examples, cultural considerations for interface design #### Inclusive language - Present: Professional, jargon-explained terminology throughout discussion - Improve: Plain language alternatives for highly technical UX concepts #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear topic transitions, consistent discussion structure - Improve: Visual outline of topics, content warnings for rapid screen changes #### Representation - Present: Mix of company sizes and product types in examples - Improve: More diverse range of user types and accessibility needs in UX discussions #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful discussion of product challenges, learning from mistakes - Improve: Explicit encouragement for UX beginners, resources for getting started ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Clear progression from UX principles to specific implementation strategies - Inductive strength: Multiple case studies supporting broader UX conclusions - Causal reasoning: Well-established links between UX problems and user behavior outcomes - Analogical strength: Effective retail store metaphors for digital product experience #### Fallacies - Appeal to authority: Minor reliance on speaker expertise without supporting evidence in some UX recommendations - Hasty generalization: Limited discussion of when custom interfaces might be preferable to WordPress components #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Collaborative and problem-solving focused, with honest acknowledgment of challenges and failures ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No denial patterns present - speakers acknowledge UX problems honestly - Attack: No attacks on users or critics - problems attributed to process issues - Reverse victim/offender: Not applicable - discussion focused on improvement rather than blame - Emotional cues: Constructive problem-solving tone throughout ## --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] Most products don't fail because they lack features. [00:03] They fail because people can't figure out how to use them. [00:07] How do you add more features without damaging usability and how many [00:12] support tickets, workarounds, or tutorials are really just symptoms [00:16] of bad ux and how do you make UX led decisions when your product is [00:21] already complex and widely used? [00:24] Let's find out. [00:29] This is WP Product Talk, a place where every week we bring you insights, [00:34] product marketing, business management, and growth, customer experience, [00:39] product development, and more. [00:42] It's your go-to podcast for WordPress product owners by WordPress product [00:47] owners, and now enjoy the show. [00:57] Hi, I'm Katie Keith, uh, founder and CEO at Barn2. [01:02] Yeah. [01:02] And I'm Ian Meiser. [01:03] I'm general manager and co-founder at Kestrel. [01:07] Um, yeah. [01:09] Now before we get started, we are on a road to hit, um, 10,000 YouTube [01:14] subscribers, although actually, uh, we have just hit that target. [01:18] So that is amazing since we wrote the show notes. [01:21] So thank you everybody who has already subscribed to us. [01:24] Um, if you haven't yet, then please go on to YouTube and subscribe now. [01:29] Or if you prefer to use a different podcast, uh, tool such as Apple or [01:34] Spotify, then you can subscribe there. [01:36] It only takes a second and it makes such a difference. [01:40] Yeah, and a huge thanks to Freemius for being our exclusive growth partner. [01:43] Freemius helps software makers grow, monetize, and succeed. [01:48] It's a merchant of record pro uh, platform handling everything around [01:51] selling software, so checkout payment subscriptions, licensing updates. [01:56] And apparently even tax compliance. [01:58] So they, they got the whole, whole pile here. [02:01] Uh, it helps you focus on what you do best, building your product. [02:07] Yeah. [02:07] And so now let us get into UX and product development. [02:11] For this, we have invited Devin Walker to the show. [02:16] Welcome Devin. [02:18] Hey, how are y'all doing? [02:19] Nice to be here. [02:21] Yeah. [02:21] Thank you so much for being here. [02:23] I know you've been a guest on the show before and we are delighted to have [02:27] you back, especially since you have a new role, which is very relevant [02:31] to the topic we are discussing today. [02:33] So could you tell everyone a bit about your new role and [02:35] what you're doing these days? [02:37] Yeah, sure. [02:38] So, uh, I've been at, what is it? [02:40] I think it's my fourth, fifth month now, uh, at Automattic, uh, leading jet pack. [02:47] My official title is, uh, artistic Director, although [02:51] I've heard Product Maison also. [02:53] But, uh, you know, I prefer to just call it, uh, product owner, general [02:58] manager, whatever you want to call it. [02:59] But, uh, yeah, that's, that's my role now and, uh, it's been good [03:03] getting, uh, I feel like I've gone through, uh, the onboarding phase. [03:08] I'm still learning a lot every day, but, uh. [03:11] I wake up and I think about how we can improve the, the UI UX of [03:16] Jetpack, of which there is much to do. [03:21] Yeah. [03:22] Because that's such a well known product and such a complex product that people [03:26] have been talking about for years. [03:27] So I think people were really pleased to see you to. [03:31] You join Jetpack and see that it's got a new direction and [03:34] all of that kind of thing. [03:35] So yeah, excited to learn more about that. [03:39] So with that in mind, let's jump straight into the show and tell part [03:43] of the show where we each talk about our work specifically relating to [03:47] the topic UX in product development. [03:50] Could you start off by sharing, uh, what you are doing with Jet? [03:54] Pack and what sorts of UX improvements maybe have already been made or that [03:58] you've identified that are needed and what a difference that would make? [04:02] Absolutely. [04:03] Yeah. [04:03] If, uh, if you wanna share my monitor here, one thing I can, um, [04:08] showcase are a few UIs that I think, uh, are pretty good in jet pack [04:13] and then where we want to improve. [04:15] Um, so if you're looking at my screen now. [04:18] You can see, uh, stats and stats are one of the more visual and, [04:23] uh, upfront features of Jet Pack. [04:26] And one of the, um, ones people really enjoy the most. [04:30] So obviously you can see here, uh, we're using these Jetpack Green colors. [04:35] We have this main view at the top which shows you your most relevant [04:38] stats, uh, most viewed pages, very digestible dashboard here. [04:44] Um, one thing that, uh, I will be changing in the near future is [04:49] making everything in Jetpack feel, uh, more like WordPress and for. [04:54] A lot of, um, the stats views it, it does feel like WordPress, but I'd say the [05:00] green color is probably gonna change to what you've set with your WP admin Blue. [05:05] Um, so we're gonna, you know, still have a little bit of flavor of jet pack [05:09] branding, but it's going to be more. [05:11] Um, more using WordPress components and primitives. [05:16] Um, so the stats you can see, uh, are quite nice and, um, you [05:20] can go through view your 2025 and review, which is quite nice. [05:25] Now, this is my personal site. [05:27] I don't get a whole lot of traffic on it, but, uh, it, it, and then it also [05:31] integrates with the newsletter feature here, which I just started using as well. [05:36] Um, another plugin that I run side by side is, uh, independent analytics. [05:41] Has, have you guys heard of that one at all? [05:44] No. [05:45] It's quite nice. [05:46] And, um, I really like the dashboard that they have here. [05:49] Um, you know, there's a lot more thrown at you as far as [05:53] like, what's what you can do. [05:54] You see this left hand side navigation and some could argue when stacked [06:00] next to the WP admin here, it can be a little bit overwhelming. [06:04] But for somebody like me who's spent, you know, the last 15 years in WP admin, [06:09] I can, I can, uh, it's not a problem for me, but I could see somebody being [06:13] relatively new to WordPress, being a bit, um, overwhelmed by the sidebar choices. [06:19] But as far as what they actually, um, show you and give you functionality [06:24] for, it's, it's really amazing. [06:26] And, um, this is where I see us wanting to take stats a bit more in the future, [06:32] where you can see your user journeys. [06:35] You actually have a real time view. [06:36] Uh, who's coming on your site where, oh boy, there's somebody from Canada. [06:40] That's great. [06:41] They actually, um, want to visit my site, but that dashboard's really nice. [06:46] You can see form submissions. [06:47] I don't have these hooked up right now it looks like, but, um, all these [06:51] different, uh, options that are a lot more digestible than if you were to use [06:56] Google Analytics or something like that. [06:59] Um. [07:00] So this, uh, you can see they also add their, um, purple primary color [07:05] here, which, um, I don't know. [07:09] I don't mind it so much. [07:10] I think the, the issue with WordPress, uh, compared to other, [07:15] um, closed source SaaS platforms. [07:18] Are, you do get kind of a grab bag of ui ux, right? [07:23] Depending on where you're at, uh, and what product or plugin you're interacting with. [07:28] And you know, I, I'm a bit split on that. [07:34] 'cause if you ever, I, I think Katie, you've developed for Shopify, right? [07:38] Yeah. [07:39] And when you develop for Shopify, they really, um, enforce some of [07:43] their standards on you, don't they? [07:45] Yeah. [07:45] If you want to get the built for Shopify badge, it has to match exactly, [07:50] which I really like because that's what we have always done in WordPress. [07:54] We've always analyzed what WordPress and WooCommerce do visually and [07:57] copied wherever we can, rather than invent our own, um, thing. [08:02] So for example, if it was a Barn2 plugin, you wouldn't be seeing purple here. [08:06] It would look. [08:07] And the whole background colors and everything, it would look more native. [08:10] But a lot of plugins do like to put their own mark on. [08:14] That's a great point. [08:15] And exactly. [08:16] And some of my products like WP Rollback for instance, we use WordPress components. [08:20] We don't, um, I don't really. [08:23] Uh, put too much, uh, outside of the native WordPress experience, [08:29] like you're saying, but WordPress in its open source nature, they don't [08:34] enforce any of those strict standards. [08:36] There's no badge. [08:37] You have to get, uh, like Shopify, which the end result is, you [08:42] know, you, you jump between some of these different options here. [08:45] Like if I go to Cadence, obviously it's gonna look completely [08:47] different than this, right? [08:49] Or if I go to the dashboard, it's gonna. [08:51] Um, the dashboard can potentially be, uh, a mishmash of all of 'em, right? [08:55] We have the analytics widget here. [08:58] We have the fluent SMTP adding something else here. [09:01] The host includes W or Object Cash Pro, that they, they arguably [09:06] keep the WordPress standard here. [09:09] Um, but I don't know why I don't have the, um, the. [09:15] Uh, oh, this is a different site, but the Jetpack Stats has their [09:19] own dashboard widget as well, which then you can see here. [09:23] So you got a mix of the two. [09:25] I mean, it, I've gotten past the point where it's annoyed me. [09:28] I mean, I've been in WordPress too much and, and there's no, uh, chance that [09:32] we can cram everybody into that box. [09:34] But the, the component libraries are out there. [09:37] Um, the UI standards, um, I wouldn't call 'em standards, but. [09:42] Guidance is there as well, if you want to go, uh, down that road. [09:47] Um, but yeah, overall the Jet Pak stats, that's a good example of where I [09:52] think Jet Pak does a, a good job of it. [09:55] Another area where, um, we're using a lot of WordPress components, [10:00] preventatives is the forms. [10:02] Jetpack Forms has gotten a, a significant upgrade recently, and you can see when [10:07] you, uh, go and view your contacts, you have like an inbox type of look here. [10:12] Uh, that then you can see the different messages. [10:16] You can mark 'em as spam. [10:17] All this is utilizing, obviously the WordPress core experience. [10:22] And what we're doing in the future is, um, standardizing a lot of this. [10:27] So when you switch between these different screens from Boost Social. [10:34] We're bringing these offsite links as well. [10:36] That's a bad experience when you get kicked to another site [10:39] to manage stuff on your site. [10:42] We're gonna bring these as first party pages within Jetpack, but across the [10:48] different pages when you go through them. [10:50] You see all sorts of different visuals, different layouts For the header here, [10:55] you keep the WordPress footer in place. [10:57] I'm not sure why, but it's going away. [11:00] Um, you and, and, and it's a lot less visual. [11:04] You see how many toggles there are. [11:05] Jet pack is toggle crazy. [11:08] Like you can enable and disable so many different things and you're [11:11] like, well, what did that do? [11:13] Um, there's multiple ways to. [11:16] Get to different modules. [11:17] There's just a lot going on with Jetpack and it's, uh. [11:22] It's kind of messy. [11:23] Let's not, I do, [11:26] I I wanna jump into like the whole point you said about using the, like, core [11:29] WordPress components as much as possible. [11:31] I would definitely say that that's, uh, it's a win-win for users and [11:34] for us as product makers, right? [11:36] Where, you know, often what's already out there is already mostly done, if [11:40] not done enough that you should use it. [11:42] For users, though it's familiar, it's comfortable and whatever. [11:45] And I see you're sort of highlighting in a lot of places, jet Pack [11:48] doesn't always do that today. [11:50] Mm-hmm. [11:50] And it's good to hear you're, you're leaning in that direction. [11:52] Um, I have a question. [11:53] I wanna just throw in one more thing. [11:54] Addressing some of the stuff you were dropping there though, of, [11:57] uh, specifically I have a lot of wordpress.com accounts because of [12:00] the various properties and like, you know, WooCommerce, admin and all that. [12:05] I had never, when I get kicked off of a site to go log in via [12:09] wordpress.com, I never know which like. [12:12] It's not even helping me, which account it should be, you know? [12:15] So it's, uh, the, I give up and I move on. [12:19] The question though is, uh, a little bit separate and maybe, maybe too much, [12:24] but in research for chatting with you today, I was digging through sort of [12:29] like some of the recent reviews for Jet Pack, and there is this trend that is, [12:33] you know, separate from all the neediness around, you know, it's the, it's the [12:36] big thing that does all the stuff, but it's the confusion around like, what. [12:41] Is Jetpack, literally. [12:43] Mm-hmm. [12:44] And I know that question's a little broad and a little much, but, uh, do you have [12:49] like a, an angle or a take or like a solution to the problem of that question [12:53] surfacing, you know, and say the.org reviews and, and that sort of thing? [12:58] Yeah, I mean, so we want to be able to answer that question in a, uh, as [13:02] few a sentences as possible, right. [13:05] It's security, it's performance, it's growth tools, like those [13:09] three buckets cover a lot though. [13:13] Right. [13:13] And what goes into those three buckets? [13:15] What tools? [13:16] Growth tools, well, newsletter, video press, social posting and sharing. [13:23] Uh, all sorts of different blocks that you can, uh, customize and [13:27] visualize your content better. [13:29] Uh, performance we have, you know. [13:33] Elastic search. [13:34] There's, uh, a, a again, all that needs to be explained better, and [13:41] that's one of the, the core efforts of this, um, roadmap this year is. [13:48] I'm calling it, um, the Jetpack Experience Unification Initiative. [13:53] That's a little bit of a mouthful, but let's just say it's bringing cohesion [13:56] to what Jetpack is, the story behind it. [14:00] And if you don't need everything, that's fine. [14:02] If you just want to use protect or, um, or social, we have, uh, [14:08] this happened before I came. [14:10] We've, we have, uh, individual plugins for those features. [14:14] And when you install some of those, uh, separate plugins, we're gonna be [14:18] taking a hard look at the experience there and how we can bring that, uh, [14:23] leverage that as like a taste of what Jetpack can bring, give you an idea of [14:27] what the whole suite of products are. [14:29] And so hopefully if you enjoy using that one single plugin, then there'll [14:33] be a, a, a nice clear pathway to, um, install the main plugin and then. [14:39] We're gonna simplify pricing and plans substantially as well. [14:43] Uh, I envision there's the single plugins, the main free core, uh, of Jetpack, [14:50] which you can do arguably a whole lot. [14:53] One of the, my, my biggest, um, issues or things that I'm trying to figure [14:58] out is how to provide that upsell. [15:01] 'cause the free plugin does do so much like the pro version. [15:05] Um, has a lot of great services that you can, uh, leverage, but you [15:11] know, when you go to the website, jetpack.com/pricing, you're kind of [15:15] bombarded with a lot of different options. [15:17] So what if there was only Jetpack, like premium or pro and, and that's it. [15:23] And like we can back load. [15:25] If you wanna buy a pro version of a social or an individual [15:28] one, sure you can do that. [15:30] Um, but we'll kind of back load that and. [15:33] Price it in a way where, you know, if you want it, you can do [15:37] it, it'll saves you some money. [15:38] But still we're really wanting you to experience the whole suite. [15:43] And, um, we've done this with Give WP right before, when we first launched [15:47] in 2015, we were just selling add-ons, extensions, whatever you wanna call 'em. [15:52] We called 'em add-ons. [15:54] Um, and that was good for a year or two and we're like, you know. [16:00] Most people, they, they need recurring donations. [16:04] A lot of them, they need PDF receipts and some of these must have add-ons. [16:07] We, well, why don't we have a couple plans that we can offer? [16:12] Right. [16:12] We'll do like a, I forget exactly what the, what we called 'em. [16:16] I think it was like, uh, basic plus and Pro. [16:19] Pro, you're basically getting everything basic you get, you don't [16:22] get recurring donations and you don't get a few of these like critical. [16:26] And then the sweet spot was that plus plan, which 80% of buyers chose [16:31] because it include included the, um, the recurring donations, like [16:36] the must have add-ons, essentially. [16:39] And, uh, man, that did so good for our sales and it made the, the [16:43] buying journey so much simpler. [16:45] And, um, there were still questions about which plan to choose, but it wasn't like. [16:50] Oh, I need these add-ons. [16:52] And I'm like shopping and I'm figuring out which items I wanna pull from [16:56] the shelf and oh, I love the store. [16:57] And now I'm like, I'm missing a critical ingredient. [17:00] Now I need to go back. [17:02] Um, and so I envision that working well for jet Pack as well. [17:08] Yeah, I think those are really important points because. [17:12] UX is, is used to refer to the interface of software. [17:16] Actually it means user experience, doesn't it? [17:19] The user experience is everything. [17:22] Mm-hmm. [17:22] It is what your product is. [17:24] Jetpack does have that challenge, of course. [17:27] 'cause it's so many things you, I love the way you said. [17:30] We want to describe it in as few sentences as possible. [17:34] Most products aim for one sentence. [17:36] So yeah. [17:37] Even the goal shows the complexity of that challenge for you. [17:40] Yeah. [17:41] Then you've got the pricing. [17:42] All of that actually is user experience, even if we don't call it UX in software. [17:49] Absolutely. [17:50] The, the whole experience is not just the software itself, it's [17:54] the, the discovery process, the first interaction with the brand. [17:59] Um, the, the first time you visit the website or see it [18:02] listed on, uh, the plugin repo. [18:05] Those first impressions mean, uh, a lot to most users. [18:10] I'm, I'm a big believer that first impressions leave a lasting mark. [18:14] Mm-hmm. [18:14] And when. [18:15] Uh, you go to, like, I, I think Jeff, I, I like the store analogy, right? [18:19] Like when you go. [18:21] Jet pack has like a pretty nice fancy front of the store, but then when you [18:25] get in, like there's a lot of great product and, and features, but the store [18:30] is a little bit all over the place. [18:32] You're not sure where, where you're going. [18:35] Like where's the checkout? [18:36] Where, how can I leverage some of these? [18:38] What's free, what's not? [18:40] And so that's what we really want to get more in order. [18:44] Um, and also do quite a bit of work on the website. [18:47] Not a lot of people know. [18:48] One of the best, uh, UI UXs of Jetpack is the mobile app. [18:53] If you guys haven't tried the mobile app, I highly suggest [18:56] it because it's quite amazing. [18:59] And, uh, and as well Jetpack Reader, which, uh, is available on.com. [19:04] We're gonna bring it back for.org users as well. [19:07] It's quite a great experience to consume other WordPress, uh, [19:12] websites, news and non WordPress. [19:14] Any any RSS feed really can feed into it. [19:17] And so a lot, not a lot of people know about that and the exposure it can give. [19:21] And that's also one of our, um, emphasis more towards later part [19:26] of this year is like, how can we get more folks using reader? [19:30] Um, it's not just exclusively Jetpack or wordpress.com and [19:35] most people don't know that. [19:38] Yeah, I, I actually, there's a thing you sort of said in one of the last [19:42] couple of answers is like, it's more of a suite of products in a lot of [19:45] ways, and that is, I think, where a lot of this confusion may come from. [19:49] And then as far as what you were saying Katie on, like UX versus ey, right? [19:52] Like it's, we have the opportunity to set the expectation before we deliver on it. [19:57] And I think Jetpack is one of those products that if you actually do dig [20:00] into all the pieces, it's, it's doing amazing things, but people don't know. [20:05] It's the expectation setting up front that is sort of the, [20:08] the bigger struggle, I guess. [20:10] Right? [20:10] Yeah. [20:11] And we should talk about what happens if you get it wrong or not [20:15] get it wrong, but don't do it well. [20:17] And you know, there's future growth without ux. [20:21] Consideration, uh, over many years. [20:24] And that leads to misperceptions or some valid perceptions of which [20:29] Jetpack has many, uh, you know, oh, it's bloatware, it slows down my [20:33] site, it Automattic steals my data. [20:37] Um, there I can guarantee we don't steal the data, uh, and we don't sell it. [20:43] Um, whether it slows down your site or not, there's some truth behind that. [20:47] I mean, if you enable every module under the sun in jet pack, uh, inevitably [20:51] it, it will add some scripts on there. [20:53] How can we. [20:54] Uh, make that more transparent what it's doing Well, I thought about that, like [20:57] maybe there's some sort of like system health dashboard or um, Jetpack status [21:03] page where you can see what kind of scripts are being enabled, what the weight [21:07] of 'em is, like, where it's coming from. [21:09] So, so you kind of know what's going on there. [21:12] Um, and then how, uh, boost, which is the, the performance caching layer actually [21:18] used to be WP Super Cache back in the day. [21:21] Now it's, now it's Jetpack Boost. [21:23] Um, what that's doing to prevent like, some of that, uh, speed slowdown or, [21:28] or some of those scripts putting on it put, placed on your site and, um. [21:34] Yeah, I, I, I've sort of lost my track here, but you know, I'm doing that. [21:39] No, I think that's super helpful and I definitely would like to zero in [21:41] on some of the, more like the, you know, the actual UI stuff as well. [21:44] But the specific thing that I'm kind of hearing from you is interesting to [21:48] me because I think you actually, I, I'll turn this into a question because [21:53] Jetpack is an Automattic product. [21:54] I think you sometimes get sort of the weight of the, like the default. [21:58] Problem. [21:59] Right. [21:59] Sort of the, so again, I'll use a Shopify comparison really quick. [22:03] So Shopify has a subscription app, right? [22:06] It's the default, it works fine, does most of what people need. [22:09] But because it comes from Shopify, everyone doesn't like that. [22:14] It doesn't do exactly their specific thing. [22:17] And then because of Jetpack and where you guys are positioned as an [22:20] Automattic product, I think you might be sort of experiencing that same, the [22:24] expectation is it's exactly what I need. [22:27] Because it's from the WordPress people. [22:30] Uh, do you ever. [22:31] Is that something that you've sort of been confronted with at all in, you [22:35] know, moving from give to, to Jetpack? [22:38] Uh, somewhat. [22:39] I need to talk to our users more that I'm kind of in the, um, in the [22:44] weeds now, um, and do more feedback. [22:47] That's something I'm, I'm, I'm making an effort to. [22:49] I think they're, uh, you know, I'm kind of wary of it, but we want [22:52] to, uh, one of my ideas is start a Facebook group, a Jetpack Facebook [22:56] group and see what comes out of that. [22:58] Um. [22:59] And obviously the reviews are, are telling, um, some [23:03] positive, lots of meeting ones. [23:07] Uh, but yeah, listening to our users, understanding what [23:10] their wants and needs are. [23:11] Uh, we're sponsoring WordCamp Asia, so going over there, actually getting [23:16] face-to-face with a, with many of 'em. [23:19] Um, so yeah, I, I think that's really important. [23:23] Yeah. [23:24] Awesome. [23:24] Thank you. [23:25] Yeah, I mean, I guess I could share a little bit of, um, sort of an experience [23:28] I've had as far as, you know, digging deeper into UX and, and all that. [23:33] Um, as I'm sure a lot of folks, you know, watching this may know, we have [23:36] a product at Kestrels Checkout wc. [23:38] It's a WooCommerce checkout replacing, um. [23:42] The default wound checkout with the React based, blah, blah, [23:45] blah, the pitch, whatever. [23:46] The main thing though is like the product has all these features and all [23:49] these wonderful things that people are looking for and that's how they find it. [23:52] And we got like, you know, order bumps and all that, but ultimately [23:56] the thing the feature is, is actually the UX improvements for their. [23:59] Customers, it's the inherent trust behind the scenes, all the little, you know, [24:04] like, you know, spacing, rounded edges, all the things that just make it feel [24:08] high quality and, and very high end. [24:11] And something that I've actually really discovered delving into this [24:13] product in particular though, is that a lot of the times, all these big [24:17] ideas, all the fancy features, all the things that people get excited about [24:21] aren't actually what they want at all. [24:24] You know, it's sort of the spoonful of sugar. [24:27] You know, to make the actual real improvements go down. [24:30] Um, and so I just want to tie that to something real quick, is that we made [24:35] significant improvements to our free plugin a few months ago to include [24:39] sort of the, the base, you know, all those various UX improvements, uh, so [24:44] that that core value could just be made available to more people, more easily. [24:48] And it hasn't impacted negatively any of sort of the sales data or anything. [24:54] But at the same time, it's made it so that sort of, that. [24:56] Significant, you know, the, the minor things that people aren't seeking [25:00] out are available to them directly. [25:03] Right. [25:03] And, um, yeah, and it was just a bit of a sharing of, you know, the, the little [25:08] changes that the UX improvements can make. [25:11] Right. [25:13] Do you have an example? [25:13] You know, it's easy to not prioritize those because, um, I [25:17] was discussing this with one of my developers yesterday actually. [25:21] You focus on feature requests, don't you? [25:23] X number of customers are asking for this feature and then you make a [25:28] business decision on which ones to add. [25:31] Customers don't typically request UX improvements, but [25:35] they have just as big an impact. [25:37] So you need to think a little bit more creatively and get. [25:41] Um, feedback in different ways. [25:43] Use your own common sense in your product because customers probably aren't gonna [25:47] tell you other than by voting with their feet through a refund or a review. [25:51] Say it was difficult to use. [25:54] It's up to you to figure out what that means. [25:56] In what way is it difficult to use and is that their experience or a problem in [26:01] your product, which isn't straightforward. [26:04] Yeah. [26:04] Yeah. [26:04] And I, I do wanna just tie that quickly to something you said [26:07] early on, Devin, about your title. [26:08] It's the artist, artistic director versus all the, the big [26:11] fancy corporate sounding titles. [26:14] I, I honestly, as much as you know, the data's amazing and, you know, [26:17] all the fancy, big features and all, that's the exciting thing. [26:19] That's what people are gonna ask you for and they're gonna [26:21] look for in Google and all that. [26:23] It is those little touches though, that somebody who like just genuinely [26:27] cares about the problem is going to, you know, you know, really spend. [26:32] Stay up a little too late, digging in a little too deep into something [26:35] that half the people on your team don't even know if it matters. [26:38] But it's just like, you know, you can tell that it matters. [26:41] You, you, you care enough to do it. [26:43] Uh, those are the things I get most excited about. [26:45] With these sorts of things. [26:46] Mm-hmm. [26:47] Right. [26:47] So, yeah. [26:48] Mm-hmm. [26:50] Yeah. [26:50] I think, um, with Jetpack specifically, there's a lot going on. [26:53] Like, you need to connect your site to our, our servers so we can run a lot of [26:58] these services, offload a lot of that. [27:00] And, um, when that connect, when there's something wrong with that connection, [27:04] when something goes, you install a security plugin, it's blocking around. [27:09] Like, that's when the experience of Jetpack. [27:11] It gets really con not good, right? [27:14] Things don't work and you don't know why they don't work. [27:18] And that's something, uh, behind the scenes that we're, uh, trying to [27:23] harden and, and figure out better. [27:25] It's, it's, it's really difficult though. [27:27] I mean, you guys work with WooCommerce, self-hosted WordPress sites. [27:32] They need to communicate with Stripe or whatever payment gateway. [27:35] On all sorts of different hosts and getting that like connection layer [27:39] right, is something that's really difficult across all my experiences [27:44] with Give Now with Jetpack, um, with other locations in the past, but [27:49] nothing break, like ruins a ux, like a hidden problem is my main point. [27:54] And with WordPress, uh, there can be some of those hidden problems. [27:59] Yeah, one of the, so one of the things we've really delve, uh, dug into to [28:03] try to surface exactly those sorts of things, you know, like a connection [28:06] issue that, you know, you, you may not even hear about it 'cause they're [28:09] just mad and they move on or whatever. [28:11] But, um, we actually, in our support queue, we have, uh, a [28:14] hundred percent of our support. [28:16] Uh, our support team logs the job to be done for every support request that [28:20] comes in, but with a specific framing of. [28:23] This is the thing that they were doing at the time. [28:26] They decided they needed our help. [28:28] Um, so that, you know, identifying, I'm sure you actually, I think I've [28:32] seen a podcast or something where you've talked about the job to be [28:35] done framework actually, right? [28:37] Mm-hmm. [28:37] But [28:37] sort of like by doing that, you have this sort of like steady stream of like these. [28:44] I instead of the problem the user tells you, it's sort of the, [28:46] the symptom, the you treat what they tell you as the symptom. [28:49] You really dig deeper into the event, the, the, the, the failures moment, I guess. [28:55] Right? [28:56] Mm-hmm. [28:56] Um, yeah. [28:58] Um, I know I've sort of veered into more of the experience side though, [29:02] and I think we have a little bit more on the UI specifically that [29:05] we might wanna dig into as well. [29:07] Right. [29:07] And uh, I did wanna ask really quick one more thing on, um. [29:11] You, you were sharing some of this stuff on analytics, uh, Devin, and one of the, [29:18] a lot of the implementations that are within WordPress, they're very basic. [29:20] And I, I'd say jet pack's even part of that list. [29:23] Right. [29:23] It's one of those things where, you know, you get a very high level, this does the [29:27] thing of telling me of number go up or not, but it's not really super actionable. [29:31] Right. [29:32] And, um, what you were sharing is sort of that example, uh. [29:37] The ability to, you know, reduce the complexity that you're gonna get from [29:41] going to something like Google Analytics, but really digging much deeper. [29:45] Do you have a way that you sort of gauge, you know, how far down that path a [29:49] product like Jetpack would or should go? [29:52] You know, I think listening to the users and, um, understanding, uh, UX [29:58] as, uh, like sort of like a telemetry of what your support tickets are. [30:02] Tickets are saying, um. [30:04] When, when questions come in, like, can I do this or will this [30:08] be coming, uh, is sort of like a vote for a feature in my opinion. [30:13] And when people are asking multiple, um, times for a feature within [30:19] stats or analytics, for example, then that's when, uh, it'll get [30:24] more attention on our roadmap. [30:26] And, um, that's how we've treated it in the past. [30:29] And then it, it's worked pretty well. [30:32] And then some items we think of internally as well. [30:35] Right. [30:36] For instance, with stats right now, um, if you run an advertising campaign [30:41] through, uh, blaze, which is work, uh, Automattics ad network, which runs through [30:46] Tumblr and other things like that, you don't actually get to see like how that's [30:50] performing within your stats dashboard. [30:53] No, because there's a separate stats dashboard for just the paid ads. [30:57] I'm like. [30:58] Why? [30:59] Why is that the case? [31:01] And then for a kismet spam. [31:05] Protection. [31:06] Um, guess what? [31:07] You have a third dashboard to go check that out as well. [31:10] So we really need to unify some of these analytics. [31:14] And the, that last example wasn't really an, um, brought to us [31:19] by, uh, customers or, or users. [31:23] It is just something. [31:24] We see as a quality life issue within, uh, experiencing Jetpack or.com, [31:30] uh, that we're, we're going after. [31:33] And so it's a balance between what internally we, uh, feel ui ux is [31:38] best versus what our customers. [31:41] And a lot of times, uh, if you leverage too much what you do internally and [31:45] you think you have a great idea and you push it out, it's a big update. [31:48] Sometimes that can fall really, really flat on its face and your [31:51] users are like scratching their head. [31:53] What you, you just went back a step in the product. [31:56] This happens many times. [31:57] I mean, lots of examples I can think of. [32:01] Yeah. [32:02] Actually, I do have one follow-up question on that. [32:04] Does that specifically, I think I saw. [32:06] Actually it's tied to what you said about give, there was this, you shared [32:10] at some point that the, the real big growth moment for give was when you [32:13] really decided to simplify and pair that down in a lot of ways, right? [32:17] Like really provide a more cohesive offering. [32:20] Has there ever been a time where you've like, you know, to improve [32:22] the user experience you've had to like drop a feature, you've had [32:26] to get rid of something entirely. [32:28] Is that something you've had experience [32:30] with? [32:30] Yeah. [32:30] Well we had like, um. [32:32] We call them V two forms, like the forms we launched with, right? [32:37] We're put, uh, like a normal donation form, uh, on your site. [32:42] Uh, so your theme could control a lot of the styling, the functionality of [32:48] some of it, uh, in certain regards, if JavaScript would, depends on the theme. [32:53] Sometimes it, the donation form will look great. [32:55] Sometimes it wouldn't look so good. [32:57] So in, uh, give version three, we came out with a new, uh, uh, for lack of a better [33:05] word, like an iframe version of a form. [33:07] And, uh, the styling was very, uh, is still to this day, very opinionated. [33:13] The form looks great, but depending if you're using like a, a dark mode site, [33:18] it might not look as good or, and so. [33:22] We thought it was a big leap forward. [33:23] I still think it is a big leap forward and it's progressed so much [33:27] since that first launch, but a lot of our users, uh, did not want to [33:30] come along and upgrade their forms. [33:32] They were just, uh, still really, uh, tied to the old one and how [33:37] you could easily customize it. [33:38] The developers were also, um, a bit confused on how they could reach [33:43] into, um, the shadow dom and, and start modifying, and that requires [33:49] its own little CSS trick there. [33:51] And so it was, that's a good example I can think of. [33:56] Yeah. [33:56] Awesome. [33:56] Thank you. [33:57] Uh, and Katie, I think, um, jumping you, do you have, um, an example of. [34:03] The ui, the show and tell, you know, do you have something on your end? [34:07] Yeah. [34:07] For my show and tell. [34:09] I have two examples. [34:10] Uh, that's two different plugins that we have. [34:13] Um, one of which is where I thought there was not UI issue that maybe [34:17] there wasn't, and one where ui UI issue did slip into the plugin. [34:22] I will share my screen. [34:25] So this is our document library pro plugin demo. [34:30] Um. [34:31] I discovered a few weeks ago that 15% of the real customers that are using [34:37] the plugin are adding instructions above the document library to tell their users [34:44] how to use the document library and. [34:47] That was really surprising to me. [34:49] So here you can see we've got a table of documents. [34:52] We've got some filter dropdowns, we've got a search box, we've got [34:56] download buttons, previews, and so on. [34:59] To me, that's really obvious and yet people are writing to filter [35:05] the document library, select items from the dropdowns or type in the [35:09] search box and things like that. [35:11] Um, it's got a few different layouts. [35:13] It's got. [35:14] Folder views where you can like, a bit like Windows Explorer or something. [35:19] And again, people are writing above the document library, um, to find [35:24] documents in a particular category. [35:26] Click on the folders until you find the document you want. [35:29] I was like, why? [35:30] What's wrong with our plugin? [35:32] And I spent a while thinking about it and consulting with people and um, I've [35:37] decided that it is not necessarily a problem with the plugin in this case, [35:42] although normally I would view the fact that 15% of people are writing [35:47] instructions as evidence of a UX problem in the front end of the plugin. [35:52] In this case, the plugin attracts most. [35:55] The large organizations, governments, education, nonprofit, that kind of [36:01] thing, where the the users visiting their websites might typically [36:05] be less computer literate than say, our WooCommerce customers. [36:10] And as a result, I decided that while I don't necessarily agree they should be [36:15] providing instructions, it doesn't mean we need to go back to the drawing board. [36:20] So that was kind of reassuring. [36:22] I might be wrong about that, but I think it's pretty intuitive already. [36:26] Uh, certainly in the front end. [36:29] And next I'm gonna get to the example of where we've got it wrong. [36:32] This is the UX for our WooCommerce Product Options plugin, which lets you add various [36:38] types of options to your products, such as here we've got pizza toppings, which [36:42] would add check boxes for extra cheese and pepperoni and that kind of thing. [36:48] And when we added a new feature recently, we basically overlooked a consequence [36:53] that we should have thought about. [36:56] Um, before we did the new feature, basically it didn't have this [37:00] display, a quantity picker alongside each choice checkbox. [37:04] So if you added check boxes for your pizza toppings, the customer couldn't choose how [37:09] many portions of extra cheese they wanted. [37:11] They could just tick extra cheese or not. [37:14] There was no quantity field. [37:16] That was fine, but some people wanted a quantity field and where we got wrong [37:20] was somewhere in the advanced settings. [37:23] Here we have a choice restrictions option, which has a tool tip helpfully [37:29] explains what it does, which I think is really important in WordPress plugins [37:33] if it's not that obvious and it says the minimum and the maximum number of [37:38] check boxes, which the user can select. [37:41] Fine. [37:41] I think that's clear enough. [37:43] You go to the advanced settings if you want to say you can [37:46] only order two extra toppings. [37:48] Then we added this quantity picker option, which allows people to [37:52] select a quantity for each checkbox, like two portions of extra cheese. [37:56] And this is where we got it wrong because it adds all these extra options [38:00] to the advanced settings, including individual choice, quantity limits. [38:05] So like. [38:06] How many extra cheeses can they add? [38:08] They can't add 10 extra cheese. [38:10] That would be weird. [38:11] And the total quantity limits, which is the quantity spread [38:15] across all the options. [38:16] Check boxes, like maybe they can only add five of any extra topping in total. [38:22] Fine. [38:23] But then how does it fit with choice restrictions? [38:25] That's where we got it wrong. [38:27] Because now it's not clear is it? [38:29] You've got how many check boxes in total versus how many of each, and they're [38:35] in separate sections of this table. [38:38] And we just didn't think about how the two would interact. [38:42] And I only picked up on it after the release when I was setting it up on our [38:46] demo site and I got confused myself. [38:49] And I think that just shows how. [38:52] Subtle UX changes can be when you're adding complexity, these things happen. [38:58] And even though that went through, went through design, it went [39:02] through qa, the developer built it, I signed it off as well. [39:06] None of us noticed until I tried to set it up on a real website. [39:10] This makes no sense. [39:12] So that's a very detailed, but I think it illustrates how much we need to [39:16] think about UX in everything we do. [39:20] Absolutely. [39:22] Yeah. [39:22] You can't just give everybody all the cheese and pepperoni, you know, [39:25] they need to have choices on it. [39:30] It sounds like a great pizza today. [39:32] It does sound like a great, I'm hungry now for some reason. [39:34] Yeah, [39:36] I will say we actually released a rental products bundles feature not [39:40] too long ago where we made a very similar mistake, actually, Katie. [39:42] So at least it's not just you. [39:44] Uh, it was basically. [39:46] Yeah, we a lot of complex pricing calculation options. [39:49] We didn't account for all of them. [39:51] It's all fixed now. [39:52] But yeah, it definitely waited until, uh, it went through, you know, we, we, [39:56] again, we do testing, we do all the things, but you know, when you get it [39:59] in front of a couple thousand people, it's gonna be, they're gonna find things [40:03] that you maybe didn't think about. [40:05] Right. [40:06] Yeah. [40:06] Yeah. [40:07] Ian, for your products, like the, the ui, UX is the whole selling point, [40:12] especially with checkout, right? [40:13] Like that needs to convert better than existing WooCommerce, right? [40:19] The whole selling point, right. [40:21] Yeah. [40:22] And, and one of the hardest things for us is there, there is a lot [40:25] of other, you know, checkout plugins out in the market, right? [40:27] Mm-hmm. [40:27] And when it comes down to it, the, the ones that we compete most [40:30] directly against are actually the ones that do the most things, right? [40:35] So, you know, they have like 50, a hundred features on their pricing page. [40:39] And ultimately we're actually, we're, we're zeroing in on UX being the thing. [40:43] Instead, you know, you want to go build a 17 step checkout [40:47] with, you know, like trip wires. [40:50] You know, down sells and all that stuff. [40:52] There are better products for that. [40:53] If you're running an e-commerce store and you just want your customers to [40:56] feel really great when they're checking out, um, we're gonna do that instead. [41:00] And, uh, a lot of the times it just means that the fixes are [41:03] a lot more subtle, I guess. [41:04] Uh, but yeah, it, it definitely, it comes through in the data [41:09] and that actually is maybe, um. [41:13] Uh, actually I'll lean into as far as advice is concerned, as far as, you know, [41:18] we always wrap these things up with, you know, with the best advice we have [41:21] for people building their own products. [41:23] Um, I think that the number one thing for a product like checkout WC and [41:26] probably applies to most products, we set sort of our core, you know, measures of [41:32] what, you know, what are we delivering, exactly what the product is for. [41:36] We have very simple measures for each one of our products. [41:39] Checkout, for example, is. [41:42] Do we actually just drive additional revenue for all [41:45] people 90 days post install? [41:48] And you know what? [41:49] What level of impact can we have? [41:51] We run all of the changes we're potentially going to make to the product. [41:55] What new features, new UX improvements through validation of, you know, when [41:59] we roll it out, did it actually meet this sort of like North Star metric [42:02] or whatever term you want around it? [42:04] And I think ultimately, if you can't name. [42:07] Very bluntly what the product really does in a way that can be quantified. [42:13] Uh, you should probably, you know, take a step back and consider that, uh, so [42:16] that you can decide confidently what those improvements are going to be. [42:20] Right. [42:22] Uh, Devin, you have, uh, you know, best advice. [42:25] Yeah. [42:25] Uh, I thought that was really great. [42:27] I would say, you know, UX is, um, is more of a multiplier than [42:32] a layer when building products. [42:34] Like if, if you don't, you just don't add UX at the end of, of. [42:40] The build process, it's baked into everything that you do and how the [42:44] user chooses features, what kind of smart defaults are in place, [42:48] how they flow through the product. [42:50] Um, the end result is you'll have a reduced amount of, uh, support tickets. [42:54] Your customers will be happy. [42:56] They don't need to think as much. [42:58] Like the, the number of decisions that the user has to make should [43:02] be as minimal as possible. [43:04] And then if yes, like. [43:06] Maybe you don't ship features if it, if you don't have a good idea of how that [43:10] fits in your product, where, where, um, the decision tree lies with the user. [43:16] And so that's what I would say is it's, it's a multiplier, not a layer within the, [43:20] um, the product development lifecycle. [43:25] Yeah. [43:25] Um, my best advice is to really think about how to make it [43:31] so that people can use it. [43:33] Ideally every feature of your product without needing to read the documentation, [43:37] they should be able to go straight onto the page and know what to do intuitively, [43:43] because it's similar to other products, intuitively, just because it's obvious. [43:47] Use things like tool tips and so on to really make it. [43:51] Clear what each section of the admin is doing. [43:54] And yeah, you need documentation and some people want it, but your goal [43:59] should be to allow people to find success with that product without [44:02] reading anything around the topic. [44:06] Yeah. [44:06] And that, that ties really well to what Devin said at the beginning. [44:08] If you use the WordPress design pieces [44:11] mm-hmm. [44:11] You know, you can make things very intuitive, very, very easily [44:15] for, for the users in front of us. [44:16] Right. [44:17] Awesome. [44:18] Yeah, good point. [44:19] We are building for a platform so we can use that to our advantage. [44:22] We shouldn't be reinventing the wheel is that does have a detrimental impact. [44:29] Mm-hmm. [44:30] Well, that's a wrap. [44:32] Thank you so much, Devin, for joining us. [44:34] Where can people find you online? [44:37] Oh yeah, thanks for having me. [44:38] You can check out my website, devin.org or on X at, um, interwebs [44:44] is my, uh, handle on there. [44:48] Awesome. [44:48] Yeah. [44:48] Thanks again for joining us and if you're enjoying these shows you're watching now, [44:51] do us a favor, hit the subscribe button. [44:54] Um, you know, we, I think Katie did say we're at 10,000 now. [44:57] That's not enough though, and it's the best way you can support the work. [45:00] So, you know, please do you know, if you're watching somewhere else, [45:04] go to YouTube, subscribe anyways. [45:07] Yep. [45:08] And next week Ben Meredith from Give will be joining us to talk about [45:12] using AI to four x your support team. [45:16] So join us then a week from now, and thanks everyone for watching. [45:20] Bye. ## Highlights - getting, uh, I feel like I've gone through, uh, the onboarding phase. I'm still learning a lot every day, but, uh. I wake up and I think about how we can improve the, the UI UX of Jetpack, of which there is much to do. Yeah. Because that's such a well known product and such a complex product that people have been talking about for years. So I think people were really pleased to see you to. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjbcmkvcwp6enhcjdd1x18dw)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - I would definitely say that that's, uh, it's a win-win for users and for us as product makers, right? Where, you know, often what's already out there is already mostly done, if not done enough that you should use it. For users, though it's familiar, it's comfortable and whatever. And I see you're sort of highlighting in a lot of places, jet Pack doesn't always do that today. Mm-hmm. And it's good to hear you're, you're leaning in that direction. Um, I have a question. I wanna just throw in one more thing. Addressing some of the stuff you were dropping there though, of, uh, specifically I have a lot of wordpress.com accounts because of ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjbcmkwp0w05wf1qjvvfgpnw)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - Now I need to go back. Um, and so I envision that working well for jet Pack as well. Yeah, I think those are really important points because. UX is, is used to refer to the interface of software. Actually it means user experience, doesn't it? The user experience is everything. Mm-hmm. It is what your product is. Jetpack does have that challenge, of course. 'cause it's so many things you, I love the way you said. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjbcmkxy1e9vms87b1ap1xtw)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - Um, it's not just exclusively Jetpack or wordpress.com and most people don't know that. Yeah, I, I actually, there's a thing you sort of said in one of the last couple of answers is like, it's more of a suite of products in a lot of ways, and that is, I think, where a lot of this confusion may come from. And then as far as what you were saying Katie on, like UX versus ey, right? Like it's, we have the opportunity to set the expectation before we deliver on it. And I think Jetpack is one of those products that if you actually do dig ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjbcmkzdj4kzsenw8t2nmfqz)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - into all the pieces, it's, it's doing amazing things, but people don't know. It's the expectation setting up front that is sort of the, the bigger struggle, I guess. Right? Yeah. And we should talk about what happens if you get it wrong or not get it wrong, but don't do it well. And you know, there's future growth without ux. Consideration, uh, over many years. And that leads to misperceptions or some valid perceptions of which Jetpack has many, uh, you know, oh, it's bloatware, it slows down my ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjbcmm26j30x8qh0anx6930w)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - Um, as I'm sure a lot of folks, you know, watching this may know, we have a product at Kestrels Checkout wc. It's a WooCommerce checkout replacing, um. The default wound checkout with the React based, blah, blah, blah, the pitch, whatever. The main thing though is like the product has all these features and all these wonderful things that people are looking for and that's how they find it. And we got like, you know, order bumps and all that, but ultimately the thing the feature is, is actually the UX improvements for their. Customers, it's the inherent trust behind the scenes, all the little, you know, ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjbcmm3vrsscn165aeys4rxm)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - Um, and so I just want to tie that to something real quick, is that we made significant improvements to our free plugin a few months ago to include sort of the, the base, you know, all those various UX improvements, uh, so that that core value could just be made available to more people, more easily. And it hasn't impacted negatively any of sort of the sales data or anything. But at the same time, it's made it so that sort of, that. Significant, you know, the, the minor things that people aren't seeking ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjbcmm5jdgexejy9wfaw6j90)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - and I think we have a little bit more on the UI specifically that we might wanna dig into as well. Right. And uh, I did wanna ask really quick one more thing on, um. You, you were sharing some of this stuff on analytics, uh, Devin, and one of the, a lot of the implementations that are within WordPress, they're very basic. And I, I'd say jet pack's even part of that list. Right. It's one of those things where, you know, you get a very high level, this does the thing of telling me of number go up or not, but it's not really super actionable. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjbcmmbgnd94487e50tm8gnj)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - through qa, the developer built it, I signed it off as well. None of us noticed until I tried to set it up on a real website. This makes no sense. So that's a very detailed, but I think it illustrates how much we need to think about UX in everything we do. Absolutely. Yeah. You can't just give everybody all the cheese and pepperoni, you know, they need to have choices on it. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01kjbcmmkjrmqxcyjajgfd687e)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted