Why Do Open Web Principles Still Matter for Hosting

Why Do Open Web Principles Still Matter for Hosting? ![rw-book-cover](https://i0.wp.com/wp.cloud/wp-content/uploads/2026/06/2x18-Impressive-Hosting-Cover-16x9-1.jpg?fit=1200%2C675&quality=89&ssl=1) 🔗 **Source:** [Why Do Open Web Principles Still Matter for Hosting?](https://wp.cloud/open-web-principles-and-hosting/) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [open-web-principles, code-editor-platforms, domain-ownership] > author: Jesse Friedman > source: Impressive Hosting Podcast > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBsRJMeg8sk > date created: {{date:YYYY-MM-DD}} {{time:HH:mm}} > > # 🏷️ Title: Why Do Open Web Principles Still Matter for Hosting? >  ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ## 📝 Summary - **What happened**: Jesse Friedman interviews Chris Coyier about open web principles, discussing CodePen's evolution, domain ownership, and the importance of independent web infrastructure. - **Why it matters**: Platform dependency creates vulnerabilities for creators and businesses; owning your web presence provides control and permanence. - **Key stakeholders**: Web developers, content creators, educators, hosting providers, and anyone building an online presence. - **Risks and tradeoffs**: Convenience of platforms vs. control of ownership; ease of use vs. technical complexity. - **Bottom line**: URLs and domain ownership remain foundational to web independence, while platforms like CodePen bridge the gap between education and real-world development. ## 📖 Main Content The conversation centers on the enduring value of open web principles in an era of platform consolidation. Chris Coyier, creator of CSS-Tricks and CodePen, discusses how URLs serve as the fundamental building blocks of web independence. ### Core Arguments **Domain ownership as digital real estate**: Both hosts emphasize that owning a domain provides crucial protection against platform changes. Even if you redirect a domain to Instagram, you maintain an anchor point your audience can rely on if the platform disappears or changes policies. **Community dynamics at different scales**: Coyier observes that smaller communities tend to be healthier than massive platforms because consequences exist for bad behavior. In small communities, troublemakers get excluded, while large platforms lack effective moderation mechanisms. **Educational tools bridging complexity gaps**: CodePen emerged to solve the friction problem in web development education. Instead of requiring students to set up local development environments, it provides instant feedback in the browser, making web technologies more accessible. **Sustainable vs. explosive growth models**: Coyier advocates for steady, organic growth over venture capital-funded explosive scaling. His approach prioritizes longevity and sustainability over rapid exits, allowing for deeper investment in the product and community. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:03:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBsRJMeg8sk&t=225) Foundation of the Web - URLs are the foundational technology enabling the open web - Podcasts work through RSS feeds and enclosure URLs - Everything operates on URL-based architecture #### ⏱️ [00:06:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBsRJMeg8sk&t=372) Domain Ownership Strategy - Even redirecting owned domains to social platforms provides protection - Gives audience something to hold onto if platforms fail - Creates independence from platform policy changes #### ⏱️ [00:11:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBsRJMeg8sk&t=690) CodePen's Educational Mission - Eliminates setup friction for learning web development - Provides instant visual feedback for HTML/CSS/JavaScript - Serves multiple use cases: education, prototyping, sharing #### ⏱️ [00:18:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBsRJMeg8sk&t=1125) Community Size and Health - Smaller communities maintain better behavior through consequences - Large platforms lack effective accountability mechanisms - Local communities can exclude bad actors more easily #### ⏱️ [00:35:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBsRJMeg8sk&t=2120) CodePen 2.0 Evolution - Expanding beyond demos to full website hosting - Supporting real deployments with custom domains - Bridging gap between learning tools and production hosting #### ⏱️ [00:40:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBsRJMeg8sk&t=2415) AI Integration Considerations - CodePen hasn't integrated AI features yet - Platform contains valuable non-AI-generated code data - AI models need original human-created content to avoid degradation ## 📚 References - [CodePen](https://codepen.io) - [CSS-Tricks](https://css-tricks.com) - [Impressive Hosting Podcast](https://impressive.host) - [Pork Bun Domain Registrar](https://porkbun.com) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase Chris Coyier and Jesse Friedman explore why open web principles remain crucial in today's platform-dominated landscape. They argue that while social media platforms offer convenience, they create dangerous dependencies for creators and businesses. Domain ownership serves as essential digital real estate, providing stability when platforms change or disappear. CodePen exemplifies how tools can support open web principles while solving real problems. By eliminating the friction of local development setup, it makes web technologies accessible to learners while maintaining the fundamental URL-based architecture of the web. The platform's evolution toward hosting full websites with custom domains demonstrates how educational tools can grow into production infrastructure. The discussion reveals tensions between platform convenience and independence. While platforms offer reach and built-in audiences, they can disappear overnight or change policies arbitrarily. Owning your web presence through domains and hosting provides insurance against these risks, even if it requires more technical knowledge. ## 📰 Newsletter 🌐 **Why Your WordPress Site Needs Its Own Address** Ever wonder why domain ownership matters in our platform-heavy world? This week's deep dive with CSS-Tricks founder Chris Coyier reveals why URLs remain the backbone of web independence. Key takeaway: Even if you're building your brand on Instagram, owning a domain that redirects there gives your audience something permanent to hold onto. When platforms change (looking at you, Twitter → X), your audience knows where to find you. **WordPress Connection**: Your WordPress site isn't just a website—it's your digital headquarters. Whether you're running a blog, business, or creative portfolio, hosting it on your own domain means you control your destiny. **Tool Spotlight**: CodePen 2.0 now supports full website deployment with custom domains, making it easier to prototype WordPress alternatives or build landing pages that complement your main site. **Community Corner**: Smaller WordPress communities (local meetups, niche forums) tend to be more supportive than massive social platforms. Consider joining your local WordPress meetup—you'll find better help and genuine connections. Ready to claim your piece of the web? Start with a domain, add reliable WordPress hosting, and build something that's truly yours. 🚀 ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create educational content about domain ownership benefits for developers - Education: Develop workshops comparing platform dependency vs. web independence - Developer experience: Document migration paths from platforms to owned web properties - Developer marketing: Campaign highlighting open web principles for developer audiences #### Community - Maintainers: Governance templates for community platforms that respect open web principles - Contributors: Onboarding materials emphasizing URL permanence in documentation - Ecosystem: Cross-platform coordination for maintaining web standards compliance #### WordPress - Core: Performance considerations for custom domain redirects and URL canonicalization - Community: Meetup resources emphasizing local community benefits over large platform dependence - Training: Lesson plans covering domain ownership and hosting independence - Documentation: Clear guides for domain setup and hosting migration strategies ## 🧪 Hypotheses - **H1**: Developers who own domains demonstrate greater long-term online presence stability than those relying solely on platforms - **H2**: Educational coding tools with instant feedback increase web development learning retention rates - **H3**: Smaller online communities (under 500 members) exhibit better behavioral norms than larger communities - **H4**: Businesses owning their domains show more resilience during platform policy changes - **H5**: Sustainable growth models in developer tools lead to better long-term community outcomes than VC-funded explosive growth - **H6**: Web platforms that maintain URL-based architecture integrate better with existing web infrastructure ### 📊 Methodology **Domain Ownership Study**: Survey developers about platform vs. domain usage over 5-year periods, tracking online presence continuity through platform changes. **Learning Retention Analysis**: A/B test traditional local development setup vs. browser-based tools for HTML/CSS education, measuring skill retention at 30, 60, and 90 days. **Community Health Metrics**: Compare moderation effectiveness, member satisfaction, and constructive contribution rates across communities of different sizes. **Business Resilience Assessment**: Track business continuity metrics for companies during major platform policy changes, comparing domain owners vs. platform-dependent businesses. ### ❓ Questions - How do we measure the long-term value of domain ownership vs. platform convenience? - What makes browser-based development tools effective for bridging the education-to-production gap? - How can hosting providers better communicate the value proposition of web independence? - What role should AI play in educational coding platforms without compromising learning? - How do we preserve smaller community benefits as platforms scale? ### 🔮 Future Research - **Platform Dependency Risks**: Quantitative analysis of business disruption from platform changes - **Educational Tool Effectiveness**: Comparative studies of different web development learning approaches - **Community Scale Thresholds**: Research optimal community sizes for different types of technical discussion - **Web Standards Evolution**: Impact of new web technologies on hosting and domain strategies ### 💡 Implications **For Practice**: Developers should prioritize domain ownership even when using platforms for distribution. Educational institutions should consider browser-based tools for reducing setup friction. **For Policy**: Platform regulation should consider data portability and URL permanence. Domain registrars need better protection against seizure or policy changes. **For Education**: Web development curricula should emphasize open web principles alongside modern frameworks. Teaching domain concepts early prevents platform lock-in mindsets. **For Business**: Companies should diversify their web presence beyond single platforms. Hosting providers should simplify domain management and migration processes. ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment **Reading level**: Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 12.3 - accessible to college-level audiences while covering technical concepts. #### 👀 Visual learners - **Present**: CodePen interface screenshots, domain/hosting architecture diagrams - **Improve**: Visual comparison charts showing platform vs. owned infrastructure, timeline graphics of web evolution #### 🔊 Aural learners - **Present**: Full podcast audio format with clear speaker identification - **Improve**: Chapter markers for key topics, audio summaries of main concepts #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - **Present**: Clear definitions of technical terms, analogies (domains as "digital real estate") - **Improve**: Glossary of web hosting terms, expanded analogies for complex concepts #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - **Present**: References to hands-on CodePen usage, domain setup processes - **Improve**: Step-by-step domain registration and DNS configuration guides, interactive demos #### 🧠 Logical learners - **Present**: Clear cause-and-effect relationships between platform dependency and risks - **Improve**: Decision trees for choosing platforms vs. owned infrastructure, risk assessment matrices #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - **Present**: Community discussion format, collaborative development concepts - **Improve**: Forum integration for episode discussions, group challenges around web independence #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - **Present**: Individual reflection prompts about personal web strategies - **Improve**: Self-assessment worksheets for web independence, personal web presence audit checklists #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - **Present**: Organic growth metaphors, ecosystem thinking about web communities - **Improve**: Sustainability frameworks for web presence, environmental impact considerations of hosting choices ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - **Present**: Clear heading structure in transcript, speaker identification - **Improve**: More descriptive headings for content sections, ARIA landmarks for navigation #### Keyboard navigation - **Present**: Standard podcast player controls, text-based transcript - **Improve**: Skip links for transcript sections, keyboard shortcuts for audio navigation #### Contrast and readability - **Present**: High contrast text transcript - **Improve**: Ensure 4.5:1 minimum contrast ratios across all interface elements #### Text resizing and reflow - **Present**: Responsive transcript layout - **Improve**: Test transcript readability at 200% zoom, optimize line spacing #### Media and captions - **Present**: Full transcript available - **Improve**: Synchronized captions with audio, downloadable transcript formats ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - **Present**: Discussion of global web communities, international domain considerations - **Improve**: Examples from non-Western web development communities, multilingual domain strategies #### Inclusive language - **Present**: Conversational, jargon-explained tone - **Improve**: More consistent definition of technical terms, avoid cultural idioms #### Neurodiversity support - **Present**: Clear content structure, predictable format - **Improve**: Content warnings for complex technical discussions, summary bullets for key points #### Representation - **Present**: Two experienced web professionals sharing perspectives - **Improve**: Include voices from underrepresented groups in web development, discuss accessibility barriers ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - **Domain ownership insurance** (00:06:12): Strong analogical reasoning comparing domains to insurance policies—provides clear risk mitigation strategy with concrete examples. - **Community size dynamics** (00:18:45): Sound inductive reasoning based on observed patterns across different community sizes, supported by specific consequences mechanism. - **Educational friction reduction** (00:11:30): Clear causal reasoning linking setup complexity to learning barriers, with concrete evidence from teaching experience. #### Fallacies - **Appeal to tradition**: Suggesting URLs are valuable primarily because they're foundational could overlook better alternatives—strengthen by emphasizing current practical benefits. - **False dichotomy**: Presenting platform vs. ownership as either/or choice when hybrid approaches exist—clarify that it's about balance and risk management. #### Tone of voice Conversational and experienced, with technical authority balanced by approachable explanations. Uses personal anecdotes effectively to illustrate broader principles. ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis No DARVO patterns detected. The conversation maintains a collaborative, educational tone focused on shared challenges in web development and hosting rather than defensive or adversarial dynamics. ## 🎯 Conclusion The conversation reinforces that open web principles—particularly URL permanence and domain ownership—remain essential foundations for online independence. While platforms offer convenience and reach, they create dangerous dependencies that can undermine long-term digital presence stability. **Practical next steps**: Own a domain even if you primarily use platforms, prioritize tools and services that respect web standards, and participate in smaller communities that maintain healthier dynamics. The web's strength lies in its decentralized, URL-based architecture—supporting and using tools that preserve these principles helps maintain internet freedom for everyone. --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] There's no AI without the internet. I'll [00:01] tell you that much. God dang it. [00:03] >> At least then you'd have something for [00:04] people to hold on to in case you ever [00:06] got like delisted or or shadowbanned [00:09] from [music] Instagram. I'm [00:10] >> like, "No, I'm I don't have infinite [00:12] ideas. I like this idea. I'm doing this [00:14] idea cuz I like this idea." You know, [00:16] >> we both live in a world where we're [00:19] enabling people to have a voice. [00:26] Welcome to Impressive Hosting, a podcast [00:28] about the role hosting plays in shaping [00:30] the open web. I'm your host, Jesse [00:31] Freriedman. On this show, we go deeper [00:33] than uptime and dashboards. We talk [00:35] about hosting as infrastructure, about [00:37] ownership, independence, and what it [00:39] takes to build ethical, [music] high-end [00:42] WordPress hosting that actually serves [00:44] creators, businesses, and the internet [00:46] itself. Before we dive in, head to [00:47] impressive.host. That's where [music] [00:49] you can comment on episodes, ask [00:51] follow-up questions, and help shape [00:53] future conversations. You'll also find [00:55] links to follow, like, and subscribe [00:57] wherever you listen. Today, I'm very [00:59] happy and proud to say that I have a [01:01] friend of mine and a internet uh [01:05] revolutionary, [01:07] I don't know, genius behind so much [01:09] stuff. He's uh the guy behind Code Pen [01:12] and CSS tricks before that. And uh just [01:16] a generally awesome dude. Uh, Chris [01:18] Koyer, thank you so much for joining. [01:20] >> Dude, what up, Jesse? Good to be on your [01:22] show. Sounds great. I like being called [01:25] a revolutionary. That's fun. I'll take [01:26] it. I don't know if I if I am that. Just [01:29] sounds cool. Sounds like you get a whole [01:31] new wardrobe. [01:33] I don't think that uh people who are [01:35] revolutionary necessarily call [01:37] themselves that, but uh I feel like [01:39] you've been at the forefront of a lot of [01:41] tech in the in the past and you're [01:43] always pushing the limits and doing [01:44] really cool things and helping us all to [01:46] build on the internet a lot a lot better [01:48] a lot faster. [01:50] >> Yeah. Well, thanks. Yeah, I've been [01:52] doing the internet for a long time as of [01:54] you. Making the making the internet [01:56] better, too, while we're here. We might [01:58] as well because it's one of uh it's one [02:00] of uh it's one of human beings greatest [02:02] ideas. I think I think that's why we're [02:04] all Oh, [02:05] >> absolutely. That's why we're all so damn [02:07] smart recently, you know. It's because [02:08] we have the internet. You just you can [02:10] just look stuff up, you know. There's no [02:12] AI without the internet. I'll tell you [02:14] that much. God dang it. [02:17] >> Oh, you're absolutely right. [02:18] >> Yeah. Gota got to read every word ever [02:21] written somewhere. And it's at URLs. You [02:23] know, I noticed you read the URL for [02:25] your podcast right at the beginning of [02:26] this podcast. What is impressive.cloud [02:29] is that what you [02:30] >> impressive. [02:32] >> Impressive.host killer tldd top level [02:35] domain there. Look at all you all out [02:37] there. You can type that into a web [02:38] browser and you'll just go right where [02:40] you need to go. A URL is just the [02:43] foundation of the web and just a godamn [02:45] fantastic thing that we all have for us. [02:49] Um, and you know, I bring that up like [02:51] not as a joke, as a like it is a great [02:54] idea. And the worldwide web is where [02:57] those things work. You know, it's behind [02:59] all kinds of everything. And I I like, [03:02] you know, I like that podcasts are that, [03:04] too. The way that a podcast works is [03:05] there's a URL to an RSS feed and those [03:09] RSS feed has enclosures in it which [03:11] point to audio files which also have [03:13] URLs and then your podcatcher visits [03:16] that URL and it downloads it and then [03:18] it's you listen to the audio or video or [03:21] whatever is in that enclosure. It's just [03:23] URLs all the way down which is great and [03:25] not necessarily the way that all other [03:27] platforms work. And I just think it's a [03:29] big strength of the web that we should [03:30] just like revel in sometimes, you know, [03:33] not to make this philosophical all the [03:35] time. But I feel like if there's a thing [03:37] worth protecting and a thing at the [03:39] foundation of all this, it's it's the [03:41] the beautiful URL. Oh jeez, Chris, [03:44] you're ringing my bell, man. Like this [03:46] is exactly what I'm like here to do is [03:48] to help people understand the value of [03:50] the open web. And we had a great episode [03:53] a couple months ago where uh we had uh [03:56] Pork Bun on. and they're a registar and [03:58] we talked a lot about domains. We talked [04:00] about the value of owning your own real [04:02] estate, right? Like the domain is like [04:04] it's your address on the internet and so [04:06] it's your way to bring everybody to you. [04:08] And we talked a lot about how people [04:10] don't actually understand the value of [04:11] domains these days, especially with like [04:13] social media because [04:14] >> like you know you get Instagram [04:16] whatever, right? [04:17] >> Yeah. [04:18] >> But you could get a domain and you could [04:19] point it to anything. You could even [04:20] point it to your own Instagram page. I I [04:22] mean, I say this all the time because I [04:24] want people to understand how they can [04:25] own more of their influence if you at [04:28] least owned a domain and pointed your [04:31] audience to that domain, even if it [04:32] redirected to an Instagram page. Like, [04:35] at least then you'd have something for [04:36] people to hold on to in case you ever [04:37] got like delisted or or shadowbanned [04:40] from Instagram. [04:42] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Huge, right? You [04:45] you when you own it, it's a it's a big [04:47] deal, right? No. Nobody else can can [04:49] tell you what to do with it or or how [04:52] it's handled yet anyway. You know, I [04:54] mean, not that we're not trying to tempt [04:55] you, government. Stay out of it. It's [04:57] cool, you know. Not that we're trying to [05:00] uh I don't know, do anything shady or [05:03] illegal or anything. It's just kind of [05:04] like a no, this is mine, you know. Stay [05:07] out of my stay out of my stuff. I don't [05:08] like it when big platforms big platforms [05:11] go away or have big sweeping [05:13] institutional change or whatever. We've [05:16] lived it through it so many times. It's [05:18] wild. You know, remember when Twitter [05:20] used to exist? [05:22] >> I don't know. [05:23] >> They used to call it the the single [05:26] letter name. [05:27] >> Yeah. When we when we put on we used to [05:29] put links in there and then people would [05:31] click those links and it was nice and [05:33] then it all went away. [05:34] >> Yeah. Um Yep. Anyway, hey, I wish I got [05:37] to talk to Pork Bun. That's cool. I'm [05:39] going to listen to your Pork Bun one. [05:41] Sorry I haven't yet, but I think they're [05:42] one of the good ones. Um they do they do [05:45] good they do good work. [05:48] >> Um [05:48] >> yeah pork bun's great. [05:50] >> Yeah. Yeah. Is that um okay where are we [05:53] going with this? You know buy domain [05:55] names connect them to websites [05:58] >> because it gives you control. [06:01] >> Yeah. [06:01] >> Yeah. Let's talk about building [06:03] websites. You've been building websites [06:05] for a really long time. [06:06] >> You've been helping others build [06:08] websites for a really long time. [06:09] >> For people who don't know what is uh [06:11] what is you're working on? What is [06:13] CodePen? What do what do people at home [06:14] need to know about CodePen? [06:16] >> Oh, that's cool. We can talk about [06:17] CodePen and my history of building [06:19] websites. But yeah, I do I do like [06:20] really like to lean into that. Like what [06:22] do you what do what do you do, Dad? [06:24] >> I'm like, oh, well, I help people build [06:26] websites. [06:27] >> Uh because I really do for a long time [06:29] it was um it was like in the CSS tricks [06:32] days for me, which was of course a [06:33] WordPress website and you know, Jetack [06:37] helped a lot with that. I think I know [06:38] you maybe even before the jetpack days, [06:40] but definitely during all the jetpack [06:42] days. [06:43] >> Um, [06:43] >> yeah. [06:44] >> Anyway, but that was like kind of like I [06:46] got a kick out of design and making [06:49] websites like what websites look like [06:51] and what the user experiences and what [06:53] the performance of websites is like [06:55] because that's like can often be like a [06:57] hugely front-end part of the story. and [07:00] I would write, you know, so CSS tricks [07:02] was kind of mostly a blog, I guess, how [07:06] people thought of it and they would just [07:07] subscribe to it through its RSS feed and [07:10] um and I would I would I would blog a [07:12] lot, you know, sometimes many times a [07:14] day and then it became more and more [07:15] people and then I had, you know, Jeff [07:17] running it as a publisher and site owner [07:20] kind of just getting it getting it done [07:22] over there. just I don't know an [07:24] unbelievably many thousands of blog [07:26] posts that are every one of them is [07:28] about let's let's build websites good [07:31] was the overall theme of the thing not [07:34] always about [07:36] always about CSS but but always about [07:38] websites um generally [07:40] >> yeah so that that was cool and uh and [07:43] then and CodePen was born out of that as [07:45] a like you know we do demos a lot on CSS [07:48] tricks so I ended up building this site [07:49] called codepen which would help me kind [07:51] of embed demos into those blog posts. [07:53] But CodePen has grown up in in those [07:55] days and and you know, people use it for [07:58] all kinds of reasons. They may or may [08:00] not ever use the ability to embed a pen. [08:02] A pen is like it's some HTML and some [08:05] CSS and some JavaScript and then you get [08:06] to see the results of it and you don't [08:08] have to install anything to do it. It [08:10] all happens right in the browser. That's [08:11] kind of the point of it. So, you know, a [08:14] one use case is like a teachers use it [08:16] to like show off. You're, you know, the [08:18] first you ever learn HTML. Your [08:20] teacher's going to be like, "Here's a H1 [08:22] tag. Look at these weird little angle [08:24] brackets. You probably didn't even know [08:25] those existed on your keyboard, but here [08:27] they are." You know, and they're not We [08:29] don't use them in the mathematical way. [08:31] We use them to like wrap around what we [08:34] call a tag and then you write hello [08:36] world and then you have to close that [08:38] tag. You know that's that's called XML [08:41] and yada yada. But you type that on code [08:44] pen and all you're looking at is that [08:46] opening H1 tag, the closing H1 tag, some [08:49] text in between it and then right below [08:50] it or the side of it or however you have [08:52] your screen laid out, you're seeing the [08:55] HTML turn into a visual output. And I [08:57] think that's a big aha moment for [08:59] people. like, "Oh, these websites, [09:00] they're just code that the a web browser [09:04] like reads that code and it turns it [09:06] into a visual result." That is a cool [09:09] moment to watch somebody go through. [09:11] They're like, "Oh, [09:13] I get it." You know, cool. [09:14] >> Oh, yeah. And then you can layer up from [09:17] that, you know? [09:19] >> You mentioned teachers. I got to say, I [09:21] used CodePen to actually uh help [09:23] students myself, like for real, because [09:26] you're absolutely right. When you got [09:27] into teaching HTML markup, you would [09:29] have to have them, you know, load up a [09:32] text file or an IDE, then you save it, [09:34] then you tell them to go and open up [09:36] their browser, and then they have to [09:37] work here and then refresh here and keep [09:39] going back and forth and everything [09:40] else. And then when CodePen came on the [09:42] scene, [09:43] >> it was this so it's basically just so [09:45] everyone understands it's in the [09:47] browser, [09:48] >> you were able to see your HTML, your [09:50] CSS, even JavaScript, and you can alter [09:53] that in real time and see the output in [09:55] real time. Yeah. You see the upload kind [09:56] of keep bouncing back and forth [09:59] >> is the idea. [10:00] >> Exactly. [10:02] >> Right. And then you're like, well, but [10:03] also I want to use SAS or whatever [10:06] because that's popular. That that would [10:08] up the ante for that local setup. You [10:10] were describing it even more because now [10:12] I need to like npm install some stuff [10:14] and set up a little build process and [10:16] all that. And we kind of benefited at a [10:19] time was like, don't worry about it. [10:20] We'll do that stuff for you. But, you [10:23] know, people would often do it just as [10:24] a, you know, just as a temporary thing. [10:27] Like, I just need to I just need to make [10:29] up something quick because I want to [10:30] talk about it with my team or I'm [10:33] interviewing somebody and I want them to [10:34] do it. I want to see how good they are [10:35] at it. Or I have this amazing idea and I [10:38] want to share it with the world [10:39] >> because it look at how cool this is. [10:41] They can do it there and then they get [10:43] kind of the benefit of the social [10:44] network, right? Because we're tracking [10:46] the views and the hearts and the [10:47] comments and all that. And the homepage [10:49] of CodePen is not an editor. It's like [10:53] look at when you're logged in it's like [10:54] look at all this cool stuff that people [10:56] have made. So it's kind of like a never- [10:58] ending feed whatever like Facebook or [11:01] whatever. [11:01] >> I always thought of code pen as kind of [11:03] like the dribble of code. You remember [11:05] dribble? [11:06] >> Oh I do remember dribble. Those guys [11:09] were buds and in fact Rich was one of [11:10] the founders of Dribble came to work for [11:12] us for a little while after post they [11:15] sold Dribble because [11:16] >> well because Dribble had some some [11:18] success in different areas above and [11:21] beyond what we were and I was always [11:23] like oh I want to be successful like [11:24] Dribble you know it was like a an envy [11:27] kind of thing. They had a because they [11:28] were all design right dribble was you [11:30] post these little at the time 400 by 300 [11:33] it really limited you what you could [11:35] post. you had to post these little tiny [11:37] rectangles of of stuff and it people [11:39] loved it as a good it's and it's [11:41] probably doing better now than it ever [11:42] has. But now it it just kind of feels [11:44] different. It's all about hiring and [11:46] jobs and stuff. But they they did have a [11:48] job board even back then and it you know [11:50] if you needed to hire a designer it was [11:52] a great board for that. And I think that [11:53] was ended up being like 80% of their [11:55] profit as a company. So I I don't quote [11:58] me on that but it was huge. and we tried [12:00] to run a job for it and didn't do [12:02] nothing, [12:03] >> you know, and I was like, you know, if [12:05] we could hit but have it be the [12:06] front-end developer market instead of [12:08] the design market, that would be huge. [12:09] And [12:10] >> I just could never figure it out. I just [12:12] couldn't get there. [12:12] >> I think the problem that you have there [12:13] is a dribble. It was a showcase of [12:15] design elements, right? So, it didn't [12:17] even matter like what was behind it. It [12:18] could just be a Photoshop file exported [12:20] as a JPEG or something like that. And [12:22] so, it was a lot easier for you to be [12:24] like, "Oh, that's sexy. I want that for [12:26] my website or I want that for my brand. [12:28] let me just go hire that person who [12:30] designed that. Whereas with code, it's [12:32] like, you know, as a person who's hiring [12:34] may not understand, is that cool? Is [12:37] that is that really awesome? Did they do [12:39] a really elegant [12:40] >> It's hard to evaluate code more so. [12:42] Yeah, I could see that. [12:43] >> I think so. Yeah. By by a novice, by [12:45] somebody who doesn't necessarily know [12:46] like it's a lot easier to point at [12:48] pixels and say, "That's sexy." But, you [12:50] know, when it comes to code, it's like, [12:51] "Well, that looks cool, but I don't know [12:52] if that means anything better than, you [12:55] know, the next thing." Um, but I [12:57] actually got my dribble invite from uh [12:59] Jason Santa Maria back in the day. I [13:01] remember back then dribble [13:03] >> exclusive [clears throat] [13:06] invite. [13:07] >> Yeah, Jason's a cool guy. And uh a lot [13:09] of people don't know this, but he [13:10] actually designed the the WordPress logo [13:12] back in the day. The same one that we [13:13] still use today. [13:14] >> Wow. [13:16] >> Wow. That's actually impressive. Yeah. [13:19] which is not I I remember forever. It [13:21] was like you had to fight Google on it [13:23] cuz for some reason there was like a [13:25] wrong one and a right one. I'm sure you [13:28] remember and everybody used the wrong [13:30] one. [13:30] >> Yeah. The faux the fo I forget what we [13:33] call it like the WP foe or something [13:35] like that. Yeah. But it was uh some [13:37] reason somebody was using I don't even [13:39] remember the reason why but I do [13:40] remember and I think it still exists [13:42] today. Like it shows you the difference [13:45] between the faux brand and the real [13:47] brand. [13:47] >> Yeah. There's like a little swoopy [13:49] niceness to the Jason Santa Maria one [13:51] apparently. No, I don't. I don't have [13:52] that locked in my head that he did that [13:54] logo, but that sounds about right. Of [13:56] course he did. [13:56] >> Yeah. Actually, I talked to him about it [13:58] and I asked him about it and he's like, [14:00] "Oh, yeah. That was that was a project a [14:02] long time ago." And he he was so casual [14:04] about it. I was like, "Dude, that logo [14:06] is seen by [14:08] >> 40% of the the the internet. Like [14:10] anytime somebody logs in, they see it [14:12] like and I mean millions and millions of [14:14] people see that logo all the time. It's [14:16] a It's a very [14:17] >> They do. Sometimes they see it really [14:19] tiny and small in the upper left of [14:21] their website. Sometimes they see it [14:23] real big and stuff. Yeah, [14:25] >> that's cool. That's cool. Yeah, a lot of [14:27] these early luminary types were uh [14:31] >> had had big influence. I was thinking of [14:33] the one of the early dig, not Kevin [14:35] Rose, but his other his buddy Daniel [14:38] something did the Firefox logo and I'm [14:40] like, dang, that's a claim to fame. You [14:41] know, like the swooping Firefox around [14:44] the globe. [14:46] Um yeah, I guess you in those early days [14:48] your work your work went a lot further [14:52] >> anyway. Yeah. God tangents there. [14:55] >> Yeah. Yeah. I think it was I think it [14:57] was in some ways we got to you know as a [15:00] WordPress blog CSS tricks and it would [15:02] um you just get a comment section for [15:05] free. It's one of the it'd be I think of [15:07] the legit reason just to choose [15:08] something like WordPress is because you [15:10] get you get this like kind of social [15:12] part of the web kind of baked into it [15:15] from the early days. Even that old [15:17] school stuff like pingbacks and all that [15:19] stuff made you kind of part of the web, [15:22] >> you know, that it was just early [15:23] evidence that they cared about other [15:25] websites too, you know, was like let's [15:27] all be a part of a bigger thing, you [15:29] know, [15:30] >> which I which I love that that those in [15:32] the smaller days you got you get more [15:35] comments in a smaller community, which [15:37] is kind of like weird to think about, [15:39] but I think that ends up being true. [15:42] There used to be just, you know, tens, [15:43] dozens, hundreds of comments on a blog [15:46] post when in my little niche of talking [15:48] about websites on CSS tricks. And I feel [15:50] like as the industry grew and the [15:53] community around websites grew, comments [15:56] actually went down. [15:58] >> Like, you know, the bigger the bigger [16:00] the community, the worse people behave [16:01] almost. It's weird. [16:04] >> I mean, I think that we've been on this [16:05] negative trajectory around community [16:08] conversations for a long time, right? [16:10] whether it's politics or science or news [16:12] or whatever it might be. There's always [16:14] somebody out there to antagonize or [16:16] argue or fight. But you're right, [16:18] comments for a long time were so [16:20] powerful because it was a very fast and [16:22] inherent natural way within WordPress [16:24] for you to connect with your your [16:25] visitors and your users. I mean, it was [16:28] just right there and you could you could [16:29] have this immediate [16:31] um live connection with them. Didn't [16:34] require loginins or passwords. Didn't [16:36] require active sessions. You didn't have [16:38] to create an account with something. you [16:39] could just give an opinion or talk. And [16:42] uh yeah, I think now I think there's [16:44] just so much negativity out there that [16:46] people are just a little bit more [16:47] reluctant to leave a comment uh than [16:50] they were in the past. Yeah. But you [16:52] know, it's like it feels that way. It [16:53] feels like, oh, the political Discord [16:55] sucks or, you know, Twitter's a hell [16:57] hole or or Reddit's going to crap or [17:00] whatever it is. But they tend to be [17:01] those are really big communities where [17:03] like you probably have like a local [17:05] birding community or something that's [17:06] popping off, you know? Like I have a [17:08] little like oldtime music community that [17:10] I'm a part of that's very positive and [17:12] everybody's chit cchatting and doing [17:14] great and stuff because I think they're [17:16] smaller. There's probably some, [17:17] >> you know, weird sociological rule that's [17:21] like the smaller a community, the the [17:23] healthier it is because there's there's [17:24] like, you know, there's things I've [17:26] heard like if there's a bad actor in a [17:28] small community, there's consequences [17:29] then. Like you really want to be a burer [17:32] in your Austin birding community, but [17:34] you're a dick. They just kick you out. [17:36] They stop inviting you to the bird stuff [17:39] [laughter] [17:39] and then you're bummed out. But you [17:41] can't get kicked off of Twitter, you [17:43] know, like you can just be as horrible [17:44] as you want and it's so big you don't [17:47] even remember people from things that [17:48] there's no consequences for or actions [17:50] in a big community. [17:53] Anyway, [17:53] >> well, that's actually a really great [17:54] point because, you know, what I was [17:55] saying was is that I think that people [17:57] are a little reluctant to comment even [17:59] in a small community if it's their first [18:00] time because they kind of carry this, I [18:03] don't know, active social trauma with [18:06] them everywhere they go. But I think [18:08] blog owners and community owners could, [18:10] you know, really enforc, [18:13] but push people to comment more and get [18:15] involved more uh make it feel safer than [18:18] than those larger communities. I think [18:20] you're absolutely right about that. [18:22] >> Yeah. Um, and that's there's a lot about [18:24] what how WordPress, you know, got so [18:26] successful is just the active community [18:28] and people being so welcoming and open, [18:31] helping each other, support each other. [18:33] >> It definitely is. It's amazing to me [18:35] that it's still going so well still, you [18:38] know, like you're back from India or [18:40] whatever from a word camp. That blows my [18:42] mind that that that you because changes [18:45] certainly had to happen like the you [18:47] know uh I'd say whatever word camps were [18:51] like 15 years ago that's not how they're [18:53] like anymore and it would be an easier [18:55] for somebody to just be like ah we just [18:57] don't do those anymore or not adapt with [19:00] the time but instead you did adapt with [19:02] the time [19:03] >> and they're still great. [19:05] >> Yeah. Pretty cool. And it brings I mean [19:07] these big flagships ones brings [19:09] thousands of people together but we [19:10] still have hundreds of smaller ones all [19:12] over the globe all the time and they're [19:14] all run by local people who are just [19:17] passionate about what it is they want to [19:19] talk about. Yeah. Like we used to have [19:21] code pen ones and they went really well [19:23] and there was some good growth and and [19:25] all this and I'd try to go to as many as [19:27] I can. And then we had, you know, then [19:28] there was more and more. And then I was [19:29] like, well, I can't go to all these [19:31] certainly. So maybe we'll just, you [19:33] know, wish them good luck. And we had a [19:36] swag package we would send them for [19:38] stuff they could give away. But then we [19:40] started to have to have expectations of [19:42] what we expect from you as a host of one [19:44] of them and like what you can tell [19:47] people they could expect out of the [19:49] meetup instead of it just being like use [19:50] our name and do whatever you want. That [19:52] felt weird. But then I was like, we're [19:53] such a small company like I don't I [19:55] can't even hire one person to manage all [19:57] this and it feels like at least a one [19:59] person thing to manage. So, uh to us we [20:02] we kind of did have to spin them down [20:04] which is a little sad but um that's just [20:07] the nature of it. We can't be all as big [20:09] as WordPress. Geez. [20:14] >> Yeah. So, so what are you uh what what's [20:16] keeping you busy these days? What are [20:17] you focusing on? Well, now I'm all, you [20:20] know, CSS Tricks is is um in other [20:23] capable hands. Jeff is still the lead [20:25] editor over there, but he works for [20:27] Digital Ocean now who bought it, which [20:28] is great. Um, but that, you know, that [20:31] was on purpose for me, you know, because [20:33] I I got to step away and do other stuff. [20:35] But it's kind of because Code Pen is [20:36] growing and growing and growing. We've [20:38] had a long as a as a history, CodePen is [20:42] only slightly newer than CSS. We're [20:44] still over 15 years old as a company, [20:46] CodePen is. So it's, you know, and we've [20:50] nothing but grown since the beginning. [20:53] Um, which is nice, but we've never had [20:55] like a massive growth moment. It's just [20:57] a long slow steady lineup, which is kind [20:59] of defines my career a little bit [21:01] because that's how Code Pen was. That's [21:03] how any even small enterprise business [21:06] I've been with is never been like, "We [21:08] did it. We went super viral and now [21:11] everybody owns our socks or whatever it [21:13] is." Never like that. It's always like a [21:16] It's always like a long-term grind, but [21:18] one that doesn't feel awful. It's like, [21:20] yeah, I'm doing it because I like doing [21:21] it, you know? [21:23] >> Right. [21:23] >> So, whatever, you know, like I like [21:25] running. [21:25] >> Steady organic growth is actually [21:28] >> Well, I think that steady organic growth [21:30] is actually something that a lot of [21:31] people envy. I mean, you know, you get [21:34] this idea that the internet is going to [21:36] make you blow up, the social media is [21:38] going to explode, that you're going to [21:39] get some influencer is going to sell [21:40] your product or something like that. But [21:43] in the reality of this situation, I [21:44] think you know code pen's a little bit [21:46] different than some like you know hot [21:48] sneaker or something that that some [21:50] influence or canal or something like [21:53] that. It is different but usually [21:54] startups are looking for higher growth [21:56] than [21:57] >> than what we're doing because that you [21:59] know we I I think our era came from this [22:03] >> what VC was like was let's give you a [22:07] bunch of money at a high risk and it's [22:10] either going to do great and we're going [22:12] to 10x our output or it's just going to [22:14] fail and then people and then [22:15] entrepreneurs would go off and do the [22:17] next thing. I mean, maybe that's not [22:18] just our maybe that's what just [22:19] entrepreneurialism is. But that never [22:22] like sat super well with me. I don't, [22:24] you know, I'm not as interested in the [22:26] like not enough growth. Throw in the [22:28] trash can, try again. Like, no, I'm I [22:31] don't have infinite ideas. I like this [22:33] idea. I'm doing this idea because I like [22:35] this idea, you know, and I don't know, [22:37] you know, like I do want to make money [22:40] like I always have, right? I'm [22:41] entrepreneurial and I make choices [22:43] around profit. I like running profitable [22:46] businesses. I want there to be more [22:47] profit. I'm very interested in all that [22:49] aspect of running a business. But it's [22:52] like it's I guess it's okay that I'm not [22:53] a billionaire or whatever. Like I want [22:56] to I want more to I'm driven by that [22:59] idea even now. Um but it's okay to me [23:02] that it's that it takes a while and that [23:05] it's a long burn and you earn it along [23:07] the way. is like okay with [23:10] >> I think it's I think it's great that [23:11] you're working on something that I mean [23:13] we we both live in a world where we're [23:16] enabling people to have a voice and I [23:19] think that's important. You know, you're [23:21] helping people build websites. I'm [23:23] helping people host websites. But at the [23:25] end of the day, a website is an [23:27] extension of who you are, right? It's [23:29] the ability for you to share your [23:30] passions and talk about what you're [23:32] doing and sell your things and help [23:34] people, you know, make a living. [23:36] >> I certainly can. I mean a personal [23:37] website is [23:38] >> yeah there there there's so many [23:40] archetypes to to websites. It can be a [23:43] podcast. It can be [23:46] >> um you know e-commerce or whatever. I [23:48] mean there's just a million. It could be [23:49] a little game. You know my kids I've [23:52] been vibe coding little games. I'm like [23:54] oh maybe I'll make her a little URL to [23:56] share um [24:00] her games or whatever. I like that [24:01] websites can be lots of different [24:02] things. You know it doesn't always have [24:04] to be oh it's just my little slice of [24:05] the web. You know, it can be a big ass [24:07] slice of the web if you want it to be or [24:08] it could be ultra little tiny or you [24:11] could not share it with anybody if you [24:12] want or it could be an archive of gifts [24:15] that you saved over the years or [24:17] frayingly. I mean, that's part of the [24:18] beauty of it to me is that it can be [24:19] anything. And that it's a multidia. It [24:22] can be it can be words, it can be [24:24] sounds, it can be video, it can be [24:26] whatever, [24:27] >> can be 3D even, you know. [24:31] >> Have you seen websites where you put on [24:32] 3D glasses? [24:34] >> Yeah, absolutely. Some of them are on [24:36] code pen, you know. [24:37] >> That's awesome. [24:39] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. So, yeah. So, [24:41] I'm working on code pen. I know I didn't [24:43] fully explain the whole thing, but it is [24:44] just a code editor in the browser kind [24:46] of thing. And I want people to um to [24:49] build more stuff with it just from that [24:51] business perspective was we knew when [24:54] people would leave essentially as I'm, [24:57] you know, as I'm sure any good business [24:59] does. Leaving meaning like I used to, [25:02] you know, you'd meet somebody at a [25:03] conference and be like, "Oh, what's up, [25:05] dude?" Yeah. Oh, yeah. I used to use [25:06] your thing. Cool. I I used to listen to [25:10] your podcast. You know, that's like good [25:12] research. You know, you're like, "Oh, [25:14] yeah. Why'd you stop?" You know what? [25:17] like not to not to make a casual, you [25:21] know, over a beer kind of thing be too [25:23] businessoriented, but you'll eventually [25:25] you'll hear why, you know, and I I know [25:28] why people leave code pen. It's like [25:30] it's not really a fullon [25:33] place where developers build real stuff, [25:36] you know, you use it because you want to [25:38] talk about a you're, you know, you're [25:40] building a little reduced test case to [25:41] find figure out a bug, you know, so [25:43] you're like, "Here's my code. What's [25:45] wrong with it?" or you're showing off a [25:47] small idea or one component or or all [25:50] this or you're teaching somebody early [25:51] concepts. You know, there's all these [25:53] reasons and there's enough reasons that [25:54] we run a whole business about it with [25:56] employees and make money. That's great. [25:59] >> But like isn't it doesn't it stand to [26:01] reason that um if you didn't lose people [26:05] the business does better, you know? So, [26:08] you know, part of CodePen and we're just [26:10] calling it CodePen 2.0, which I don't [26:12] think I've said in this podcast. It's [26:13] out now in public beta. Part of the idea [26:16] is like let's support more technologies [26:19] and let's support the idea of building [26:21] more like real you know I I don't know [26:24] what a cool way to say it. I think in my [26:26] head full-blown full-blown websites [26:30] um you know you can't run WordPress but [26:33] you can run a lot of other stuff and you [26:37] could make a site you know and I've been [26:38] doing it to show people little little [26:40] example sites um you know more like [26:43] little brochure sites or a simple blog [26:45] or or whatever like things that you know [26:48] they don't require an off system or [26:51] comment section or things that you know [26:52] you might need a database for and stuff [26:54] you can't do that yet, but what you can [26:56] do is like expands what you could do on [26:58] CodePen before. So maybe it doubles or [27:01] triples or quadruples the kind of reason [27:03] you use it. And then you're also using [27:05] it a little bit more like for real, you [27:08] know, you're like, I'm building [27:09] something that people are for real going [27:12] to see that people might not even know [27:13] that I built it on code pen at all [27:15] because there's just a deploy button. [27:17] You hit the deploy button, you get a [27:18] URL. Now you have and it's, you know, [27:20] it's one of those URLs that's like on [27:22] code pen. So you get, yeah, we make up [27:25] funny names. So you get like rainbow [27:28] bobcat tail.codepen.app [27:30] or something. And then that's what your [27:32] site is on. And some people are like, [27:33] "Cool, thanks." You know, and you'll [27:35] share it. You know, that's what my [27:36] daughter does when she makes the game. [27:37] She can just put it on there, hit the [27:39] deploy button, then she's got a URL she [27:41] can send to her friends to play her [27:42] game. You know, [27:43] >> she doesn't care what the URL is. [27:46] >> But a lot of people like you and me do [27:48] care what our URL is. I want to put it [27:50] at like my coolwiz game. Chriscoyer.net. [27:53] net or whatever. And so CodePen supports [27:55] that too, [27:57] >> which is just, you know, [28:00] >> set a little DNS record and point it to [28:02] us and we'll figure it out. We'll [28:04] provision an SSL certificate for you and [28:06] we'll and we'll host that website for [28:09] you. So yeah, just my founder just the [28:12] other day was like, have you seen this? [28:14] you know, and it was kind of the it was [28:15] kind of like a word WordPress labs thing [28:18] where you can spin up a whole WordPress [28:20] instance um without needing SQL and PHP [28:25] and stuff because there's this web [28:26] technology called Wom that just like [28:28] bundles all that crap. It just makes it [28:30] all work in like an executable that runs [28:32] on the web which is amazing. Wild, [28:35] right? [28:35] >> Yeah. He's always been like what if [28:37] because he knows I've been a WordPress [28:39] guy forever. Even though I do CodePen, [28:40] you can't. WordPress and Codepen have [28:42] almost nothing to do with each other. [28:44] But everything else I do, every other [28:46] website I spin up in my entire life [28:49] practically is a WordPress website, you [28:50] know, because I know it well. It's very [28:53] p powerful. I like it. You know, the [28:56] hosting story I understand and and and [28:59] make good use of and all this. And he my [29:03] co-founder at Codefen, Alex, knows I'm [29:04] kind of a WordPress guy. And I feel like [29:06] he always brings up WordPress stuff. [29:07] He's like, "One of these days, you know, [29:09] someday we'll be able to host it." And [29:12] then maybe this is maybe this is the [29:13] answer for us in the end. [29:15] >> I really want to get into who you see is [29:18] like the typical or best case scenario [29:21] user for Code Pen, but we're running out [29:22] of time here. So maybe we could wait and [29:24] and do that in the in the next episode. [29:27] Let me ask you just a super quick [29:28] question. Do you have AI uh integrated [29:31] into Code Pen right now? Like is it a [29:33] code vibing kind of situation? [29:36] >> Absolutely not. None at all. But it's [29:38] not that's not necessarily like a [29:40] philosophical choice really. I know that [29:42] that conversation is complicated. [29:44] >> I actually want it. I I have prototypes [29:47] myself that I've built, but we have not [29:49] we have not shipped any AI to customers [29:53] yet. [29:54] >> We use it behind the scenes. Of course, [29:56] there's like, you know, we've been long [29:58] like detecting spam and things through [30:00] machine learning type of models and [30:02] stuff, but yeah. [30:03] >> Yeah. We don't even have autocomplete or [30:06] anything AI related, which is kind of [30:09] interesting. Like I don't know, you [30:11] know, what what's worth saying about [30:12] publicly on a podcast or anything, but [30:14] it does make us a rather sweet data hive [30:17] because I feel like more and more AI [30:20] models are interested in in data that [30:24] wasn't AI generated. Otherwise, they're [30:26] just eating their own [30:28] >> poop essentially. [30:30] You know, [30:33] >> I need to cut that sound effect. [30:38] >> That was brilliant. All right, we got to [30:40] take a break. Uh we'll be back with [30:42] another episode. Chris, it's so awesome [30:43] talking to you. But we'll be we'll be [30:45] right back. [30:49] [music] [30:50] >> Thanks for joining us on another episode [30:51] of Impressive Hosting, where we uncover [30:53] the core tenants of great WordPress [30:55] hosting. Do you have a follow-up [30:57] question for today's guest? Thought or [30:58] comment on anything we talked about? A [31:00] future guest suggestion, a hosting [31:02] horror story? What do you think makes [31:05] great WordPress hosting? All your [31:07] comments shape this show. Drop them on [31:09] impressive.host. [31:11] We also appreciate you following us on [31:13] social media and subscribing to the [31:15] podcast on your favorite platform. [31:17] Finally, do check out our list of open [31:19] source projects that need support at [31:21] impressive.host. Whether it's code, [31:23] community, or cash, you can make a [31:25] difference. See you next time.  ## Highlights - When you own it, it's a big deal. Nobody else can tell you what to do with it or how it's handled... I don't like it when big platforms go away or have big sweeping institutional change. We've lived through it so many times. - Note: 📚 Domain ownership provides hedge protection against platform volatility · - Discussion of social media platform changes affecting creator audiences - Fundamental web infrastructure principle for creator economy resilience - Practical strategy: point owned domains to platform content as interim solution · #atom/literature/h1 - I'm not as interested in the idea of enough growth, throw it in the trash can, try again. I'm like, 'No, I don't have infinite ideas. I like this idea. I'm doing this idea 'cause I like this idea. - Note: 📚 Sustainable growth creates more durable businesses than VC scaling models · - CodePen's 15-year organic growth without hockey-stick moments - Alternative to venture capital "10X or fail" approach - Emphasizes long-term value creation over exit strategies · #atom/literature/h2 - There's probably some weird sociological rule that says the smaller a community, the healthier it is. Because there's consequences... you can just be as horrible as you want, and it's so big you don't even remember people - Note: 📚 Small communities maintain healthier discourse through accountability mechanisms · - Comparison between small birding communities and large platforms like Twitter - WordPress community moderation implications for different scale events - Social psychology principle applicable to online community management · #atom/literature/h3 - URL-based architecture enables open web resilience - Note: [[Open web principles]] — because extends fundamental architecture concepts · - [[Open web principles]] — because extends fundamental architecture concepts · #atom/zettel/z1 - Research WordPress Playground WASM integration timeline and technical requirements — hosting implications for traditional server models #fleeting #technology-research - Note: ✏️ Fleeting capture #atom/fleeting/f1 - Investigate CodePen 2.0 automatic SSL provisioning approach for WordPress hosting feature development #fleeting #product-development - Note: ✏️ Fleeting capture #atom/fleeting/f2 - Analyze correlation between community size and engagement quality across WordPress meetups and WordCamps #fleeting #community-research - Note: ✏️ Fleeting capture #atom/fleeting/f3 - ** Claims about AI training data value based on limited current evidence - should qualify these predictions as speculative - Note: 🔍 Fallacy: Hasty Generalization #fallacy/hasty-generalization