Why John Cooper Is Right About NAR Abuse - CourtneyR.dev's 2nd Brain

Why John Cooper Is Right About NAR Abuse ![rw-book-cover](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/xKqwUl6lds4/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [Why John Cooper Is Right About NAR Abuse](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [new-apostolic-reformation, spiritual-abuse, church-governance, ecclesiology, charismatic-movement, apostolic-authority] > author: Minor Prophets > source: Minor Prophets (YouTube) > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4 > date created: 2026-09-12 > > > [!info] Generated analysis — not the author's words. Sections below are machine-written > > from the captured source. Only text inside `> [!quote]` blocks is verbatim from the author. > > Do not quote or attribute any other line to the named author. > > # 🏷️ Title: Why John Cooper is Right About NAR Abuse >  ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - Source video: [Why John Cooper is Right About NAR Abuse](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4), Minor Prophets, 1:24:21. The transcript shows no on-screen citations or links; the clips it plays (Cooper, Emma Stark, Harold Eberle, Bill Johnson) are identified only by the host's spoken introductions. - The interview under discussion: [Alisa Childers Podcast #402, "Skillet's John and Korey Cooper Break Their Silence About NAR & Church Abuse"](https://open.spotify.com/episode/3FtXyz8Wr7ggLOsgY9s9mJ) (Spotify page shows the title only; I didn't listen to the episode). - Companion episode referenced at 7:34: [Remnant Radio, "Skillet's John & Korey Cooper Reveal Church Abuse"](https://www.theremnantradio.com/video/skillets-john-korey-cooper-reveal-church-abuse-y19_etq6key), dated 2026-09-09, with Caleb, a former elder of the Coopers' church. ## 📝 Summary - **Content note:** the first 3 minutes list sexual-abuse allegations against named leaders, including abuse of a 14-year-old (1:49). - **What happened.** The Minor Prophets host (unnamed in the transcript; the podcast listing names JonMark Baker as host) and Josh Lewis of Remnant Radio spend 84 minutes testing one claim John Cooper of Skillet made on the Alisa Childers Podcast: that the abuse he and Korey Cooper describe at their church follows from New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) ecclesiology, not only from one leader's character. - **Method.** They play Cooper clips, then compare them with NAR-aligned sources: Danny Silk's *Culture of Honor* (ch. 2, "funnel from heaven"), Emma Stark on apostles and prophets as "foundation stones," Harold Eberle (caption spelling "Eberly"; unverified) on ongoing revelation, and a Bill Johnson clip denying NAR membership. - **Why it matters.** If the doctrine ranks apostles above elders and ties God's blessing to submission, then an elder who rebukes an apostle has no working mechanism, which matches Cooper's account that the apostle told an elder "You cannot rebuke an apostle" (12:36). - **Key stakeholders.** Former and current members of the Coopers' church; elders who left (Cooper's clip says 40% of elders left in 2018, 20:00); Bethel Church leaders; NAR-aligned authors named in the video; charismatic churches that use "apostle" to mean missionary. - **Risks and tradeoffs.** The hosts concede two limits: Lewis says the doctrine is a "breeding ground," not a guarantee (14:17), and the host says "abuse can happen in any environment" (1:22:18). The opening scandal list supports "scandal is common" more than "the doctrine causes it." - **Bottom line.** The video argues Cooper goes "only a little bit further" than published NAR teaching (59:16), and that the structural claim holds even if not every NAR church is abusive. ## 📖 Main Content - **Cooper's core claim (0:00, 3:18).** Cooper, per the host, treats his church experience as evidence the abuse is "systemic in this movement due to its faulty ecclesiology." A secondary report of the interview quotes Cooper calling it "an epidemic" in charismatic circles ([Rock Celebrities](https://rockcelebrities.net/john-cooper-comes-clean-on-spiritual-abuse-in-his-church-ive-waited-two-years-to-reveal-this/)). - **The objection (4:04).** Unnamed critics say Cooper paints "with too broad of a brush," that "people, not the theology" are to blame, and that podcasters are "stoking a moral panic." The transcript names none of these critics and shows no sources for them. - **Term: ecclesiology.** Doctrine of how a church is structured and governed: who holds authority, who can correct whom. - **Term: five-fold ministry.** Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers (Ephesians 4:11). NAR teaching, as quoted here, treats the order in 1 Corinthians 12:28 ("first apostles, second prophets, third teachers") as a ranking of anointing. - **Premise 1: authority flows down a hierarchy.** Silk's "funnel from heaven": apostles at the top, then prophets, then teachers; blessing comes when everyone is "in the right order" (19:12). Silk calls the teacher's anointing "a C in a grade scale" (32:24). Third-party reviews of *Culture of Honor* quote the same wording ([Escape to Reality review](https://escapetoreality.org/2010/03/16/culture-of-honor-by-danny-silk/)). - **Premise 2: apostles are the church's ongoing foundation.** Emma Stark (caption spelling; unverified) says "I am a foundation stone" and "the church cannot be rightly built if its foundation stones are not doing their job" (47:18–48:44). - **Premise 3: apostles bring new revelation.** Eberle contrasts "dispensational thinking," where people want "the same thing they've heard every Sunday," with "God's giving new revelation" (52:48). - **Conclusion the hosts draw.** If those three premises hold, correction of an apostle becomes opposition to God. Cooper's clip reports the apostle saying, "When you come against me, you are coming against God's... cosmic plan for the earth to restore apostles" (12:00). - **Counter-readings offered.** Lewis reads 1 Corinthians 3:10–11 as Paul saying the foundation is Jesus Christ and that Paul and Apollos are servants (35:08). He reads Ephesians 2:20 as apostles and prophets carrying the foundational message of Gentile inclusion in the first century, not holding foundational office in every age (48:44). - **Contested or uncertain.** (a) Whether "devote yourself to my teaching" (26:25) is common: both hosts say they haven't seen it widely (27:32, 29:38). (b) Whether the abuse is doctrinal or structural: Lewis says non-charismatic churches with a strong senior pastor produce the same yes-man boards (1:15:36). (c) The Cooper clips are excerpts; this video doesn't play the full interview. - **Verification status.** See References for what I confirmed. The "cosmic plan" quote, the "20 witnesses" remark, the taped 4-hour meeting, and the 2018 elder departures come only from clips played in this video. I didn't check them against the full Childers episode. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [0:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=0) Cold open: Cooper's claim and the scandal list - Host frames the question: is Cooper right that NAR abuse is systemic, or "painting with too broad of a brush"? - Defines NAR as a subset of the charismatic movement including Bethel (Redding, CA), MorningStar (Charlotte, NC), and the former International House of Prayer Kansas City (IHOPKC). - Lists allegations: Todd Bentley, Mike Bickle (caption "Bickl"), Shawn Bolz (caption "BS"), Bethel leaders Kris Vallotton (caption "Chris Valatin"), Danny Silk, Bill Johnson; Paul Cain (caption "Kaine"), Bob Jones; historical figures John G. Lake, Charles Fox Parham ("Parm"), John Alexander Dowie ("Dowi"), William Branham ("Brham"). - Verification of this list is in the References section. Several specifics (Cain and interns, blackmail; Bentley) are the host's claims that I didn't confirm. #### ⏱️ [4:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=244) The objection: collateral damage to good churches - Critics' position as the host summarizes it: good churches lose members and funding when tagged NAR; podcasters cause "collateral damage." - The host poses a two-option frame at 5:29: "the largest heretical movement in the church since Arianism" or "a smear campaign organized by Satan himself." #### ⏱️ [5:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=329) Guest introduction and conference promotion - Josh Lewis, Remnant Radio. Both promote RemCon in Houston on the gift of prophecy (6:32), with Michael Miller and Michael Rowntree (caption "Roundree"). - Disclosure context: the host and guest share a paid event two weeks after recording. #### ⏱️ [7:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=454) What happened at the Coopers' church, per a former elder - Lewis summarizes his interview with an elder from the church the day before: members who questioned "this whole apostolic thing" were asked "do you really love me?" and labeled "crazy, menopausal," "filled with bitterness." - "The apostle says goes"; elders who spoke up were "slowly pushed away." - Lewis: "It's plurality in name only" (8:50). - Korey Cooper clip (9:30): good intent, wrong doctrine, harmful results. See [H1]. #### ⏱️ [10:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=643) "Cosmic plan": correction recast as spiritual attack - Cooper clip: "I could right now call 20 witnesses" who heard the apostle say Cooper's challenge was "a satanic attack." - An elder named John confronted the apostle in a 4-hour meeting, which Cooper says was taped and reviewed by a third-party investigator. - Apostle's reply, per Cooper: "You're just an elder. You cannot rebuke an apostle" (12:36). - Host names the move: equivocation on "anointing," so opposing the apostle becomes opposing Christ (13:06). #### ⏱️ [13:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=826) "Breeding ground," not guarantee - Lewis's food-safety analogy: unwashed hands don't guarantee infection, but raise the risk. - He self-corrects mid-sentence: "all we've seen... That's overgeneralized. A good chunk of what we have seen" (16:36). - Describes the manipulation style as "gentle, subversive, gaslighting," not yelling (17:13). #### ⏱️ [18:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=1102) Patreon promotion - 40-second sponsor segment for the Minor Prophets Patreon. #### ⏱️ [19:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=1152) Silk's "funnel from heaven" and the 2018 departures - Host reads *Culture of Honor* ch. 2: apostles, then prophets, then teachers; people not "apostolically aligned" miss blessing. - Cooper clip (20:00): "literally 40% of the elders of the church had left" in 2018, told that speaking critically would make God "remove the blessing from your life." #### ⏱️ [21:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=1316) Is this belief mainstream? - Lewis cites John Bevere's *Under Cover* (blind obedience; the unnamed leader identified by Lewis as Benny Hinn, caption "Ben Hen"; unverified), Robert Henderson's courts-of-heaven books, C. Peter Wagner, and Kathryn Krick (caption "Katherine Crick/Crook/Craig"; unverified). - Claim at 24:22: "This is a mainstream idea that is pervasive within the movement." Supported by author popularity, not by survey data. #### ⏱️ [25:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=1518) "You no longer hold to the vision" - Cooper clip: when he asked to leave in peace, the apostle said "our relationship already has changed... You're tearing down my life's work." - Cooper: the relationship was only possible "with me being under his covering." - Teaching titled "They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching," applied as "devote yourself to my teaching" (26:58). #### ⏱️ [27:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=1652) Network churches vs. isolated groups - Lewis: Bethel hosts outside speakers (Randy Clark, Robby Dawkins; caption spellings, unverified), while Krick tells followers to "stick with one teacher and one stream." - Lewis says the Coopers' apostle isn't on the US conference circuit and has UK ties; he's "not as convinced this is as pervasive." #### ⏱️ [29:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=1778) A "soft version" in *Culture of Honor* - Silk on 1 Corinthians 12:28: the order "is related to the realms of the supernatural that correspond to each particular office." - Silk on 1 Corinthians 3:10: apostle as "architecton," "as though God himself has given blueprints to certain individuals." - Silk on teachers: "only the third level of anointing. It is a C in a grade scale" and "These are the lawyers, scribes, and Pharisees of our day" (33:05). See [H2]. #### ⏱️ [35:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=2108) Lewis reads 1 Corinthians 3 - Context of chapter 3: factions saying "I follow Apollos" or "I follow Paul"; Paul answers that both are servants and "only God who gives the growth." - Verse 11: "no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ." - Lewis's conclusion: Silk's proof text says the reverse of Silk's point. #### ⏱️ [38:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=2335) Anger at Bethel and *The Passion Translation* - Host on Silk's dismissal of teachers who want to be right: "I wish that Bethel had been listening to those pesky teachers." - Lewis cites Bethel's special edition of *The Passion Translation* with a 16-page Bill Johnson foreword. [The Christian Post](https://www.christianpost.com/news/the-passion-translation-faces-mounting-rejection.html) confirms Bethel stopped selling that edition after plagiarism allegations published by the Minor Prophets channel with Mike Winger. - Host says he's angry because Bethel dismissed the teachers whose warnings "could have saved them" (40:40). #### ⏱️ [40:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=2440) Lewis's balance argument - Analogy: "mom nurtures, dad sends you out"; the charismatic world has the sending without the caution. - Protestant history: "we've traded one pope for another" (43:13). - Lewis identifies as "the most flaming charismatic out there" and calls for "a radical middle" (44:10). #### ⏱️ [45:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=2706) "That paragraph is sinful"; apostles as foundation - Host on Silk's teacher paragraph: "I think that paragraph is sinful." - Cooper's apostle called himself the foundation of people's lives; host says that goes "one step further" than most NAR apostles. - Emma Stark clip (46:40): "I am a foundation stone," "Jesus Christ is clearly the capstone." #### ⏱️ [48:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=2924) Two readings of Ephesians 2:20 - Lewis: apostles and prophets are foundational because they carried the message of Gentile inclusion (Acts 10), tied to that historical moment. - Host's alternate reading: prophets = Old Testament writers, apostles = New Testament witnesses; both point to Christ. - Shared conclusion: "This is about a message, not individuals." #### ⏱️ [51:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=3118) Eberle on progressive revelation - Host says Eberle wrote a systematic theology for NAR (claim unverified). - Clip: "God's giving new revelation... more and more authority, more miracles, more revelation" and Ephesians 4:13 read as progression toward maturity. #### ⏱️ [54:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=3270) Functional canon - Lewis notes dispensationalism is itself a 19th-century system, so Eberle's "old truth" contrast doesn't fit. - "I don't think any of them would explicitly say we have an open canon," but teaching gets received as "right under scripture" with "binding authority" (56:28). - Host cites Jude 3, the faith "once for all" delivered (56:56). #### ⏱️ [59:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=3580) Drift over time and secret doctrine - Lewis's sequence: apostles "but none like the 12," then apostles with overflow authority, then apostles as foundation. - Cooper said the church hid doctrines because members "would revolt" (1:00:32). #### ⏱️ [1:01:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=3677) Equivocation on "apostle" - Cooper clip describes "word games": authoritative sense in teaching, "pastor of pastors" when questioned. Host calls it "motte and bailey." - Host: "they'll equivocate on the word apostle... they functionally behave as if it's the authority of the 12." See [H5]. - Lewis objects: that framing would make every continuationist church look deceptive. #### ⏱️ [1:03:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=3819) Lewis on apostles of the Lamb vs. apostles of the church - *Apostolos* = sent one; missionaries plant churches. Lewis says he planted a church in Ada, Oklahoma and isn't an apostle. - Cites D. A. Carson's distinction and attributes to Origen (caption "Origin") the idea that an apostle's authority comes from the sender; Lewis flags that he's working from memory. I didn't verify either attribution. #### ⏱️ [1:07:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=4058) The diagnostic question - Lewis: skip "does your church believe in apostles?" and ask whether submitting to an apostle brings supernatural grace. See [H4]. #### ⏱️ [1:08:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=4089) Bill Johnson clip - Johnson (Rediscovering Bethel series): "I didn't even know what it was... we don't belong to anything of that nature." - Host counters that Johnson wrote the foreword to Ché Ahn's (caption "Chayon/Jayon") *Modern-Day Apostles* (2019). The [Amazon listing](https://www.amazon.com/Modern-Day-Apostles-Operating-Apostolic-Anointing/dp/0768446732) credits Ahn with Bill Johnson. - The host's further claim that Ahn calls Johnson "his apostle" and names him as NAR is unverified. #### ⏱️ [1:11:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=4280) "Not a hierarchy" vs. the book students read - Johnson: the gifts are "not titles of exaltation... not a hierarchy." - Host: Bethel's school assigns *Culture of Honor*, which ranks teachers at "C-grade" (school assignment claim unverified). - Lewis rejects reading the five-fold gifts as personality types, naming Alan Hirsch's work (caption "Hersh"; unverified). #### ⏱️ [1:13:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=4432) Can an elder correct an apostle? - Host replays the "cannot rebuke an apostle" clip and asks whether that's the logical result of NAR premises. - Lewis: "more of a structural thing, a bylaws thing, than it has to do exclusively with doctrine," though a "natural byproduct" of foundation-apostle teaching (1:15:36). - Host: the doctrine "precludes any other form of bylaws." See [H3]. #### ⏱️ [1:16:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=4606) Dirty restaurant; the Assemblies of God precedent - Host: not every NAR church is abusive, but each is "eating at a dirty restaurant." - Host says the Assemblies of God stopped using apostle and prophet as titles "in the 50s" after the Latter Rain movement. Search summaries of the [Flower Pentecostal Heritage Center](https://ifphc.wordpress.com/2025/10/16/the-assemblies-of-god-and-the-latter-rain-movement-of-the-1940s/) date the resolution to 1949 (Resolution No. 7). I didn't read the resolution text. - Prophet as a title "frontloads too much credibility" (1:18:08). Host explains the channel name and says "I am not a prophet." #### ⏱️ [1:19:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=4762) Lewis's closing - "I don't hate people in the NAR"; friends "became the cog in a machine" and were pushed out. - Distinguishes tone: Bevere "is a brother" who is wrong; Krick and Henderson show "high-handed" rebellion. #### ⏱️ [1:21:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqwUl6lds4&t=4896) Host's closing - The host's advice: look for elders with real authority, expository preaching, and a higher view of scripture than of private prophecy. - "Abuse can happen in any environment. The NAR does not have the corner on the market of abuse" (1:22:18). - Ends with RemCon registration promotion. ## 📚 References - [Alisa Childers Podcast #402 episode page](https://open.spotify.com/episode/3FtXyz8Wr7ggLOsgY9s9mJ): confirms title naming NAR and church abuse. - [Rock Celebrities: "John Cooper Comes Clean on Spiritual Abuse in His Church"](https://rockcelebrities.net/john-cooper-comes-clean-on-spiritual-abuse-in-his-church-ive-waited-two-years-to-reveal-this/): the apostle is Korey's brother-in-law and John's friend of 30 years; church leadership commissioned a third-party investigation that found "a longstanding pattern of abuse" and recommended the apostle step down; Cooper calls it "an epidemic." No publication date shown; secondary source. - [JubileeCast, 2026-09-04](https://www.jubileecast.com/articles/39171/20260904/skillet-s-john-and-korey-cooper-break-their-silence-on-church-abuse-that-tore-their-family-apart.htm): Korey's brother-in-law served as "apostle," her father as elder; "prophetic pronouncements" and "pressure to submit." - [My Christian Daily, 2026-09-03](https://mychristiandaily.com/skillets-john-and-korey-cooper-open-up-on-church-abuse/): quotes Cooper ("My pagan friends wouldn't do this to me") and says the NAR link "could not be independently verified" by that outlet. - [Remnant Radio episode, 2026-09-09](https://www.theremnantradio.com/video/skillets-john-korey-cooper-reveal-church-abuse-y19_etq6key): former elder Caleb; lists "Third-Party Investigation Findings" at 1:06:35. - [The Roys Report on the Firefly investigation](https://roysreport.com/breaking-ihopkc-founder-mike-bickle-sexually-abused-17-women-investigation-finds/): report released 2025-02-03, commissioned by Tikkun Global, conducted by Firefly Independent Sexual Abuse Investigations; 17 women and girls, some minors, one abused beginning at age 14; leadership responded with "deliberate indifference." Matches the video's Bickle claim. - [The Christian Post on Bethel and Shawn Bolz](https://www.christianpost.com/news/bethel-church-admits-failures-after-shawn-bolz-expos.html): Johnson, Vallotton, Dann Farrelly, and Silk acknowledged "mistakes and failures"; Vallotton says Bethel first received harassment allegations in 2019. "Refused to warn the church" is the host's characterization. - [The Christian Post on *The Passion Translation*](https://www.christianpost.com/news/the-passion-translation-faces-mounting-rejection.html): Bethel stopped selling the edition with Johnson's 16-page foreword; the plagiarism investigation came from the Minor Prophets channel with Mike Winger. - [Charisma archive: Paul Cain apology](https://mycharisma.com/charisma-archive/prophetic-minister-paul-cain-issues-public-apology-for-immoral-lifestyle/): search summaries describe a 2004 statement by Jack Deere, Rick Joyner, and Mike Bickle and Cain's apology addressing alcoholism and homosexual relationships. I found no source for the host's intern-abuse or blackmail specifics. - [Matthew D. Taylor, "Important Context for the Mike Bickle/IHOP-KC Sexual Accusations"](https://matthewdtaylor.substack.com/p/important-context-for-the-mike-bickleihop): search summary says Bob Jones admitted "sexual misconduct (not adultery)" with two women in 1991 and used spiritual authority to coerce them. Secondary source; I didn't open it. - [Escape to Reality review of *Culture of Honor*](https://escapetoreality.org/2010/03/16/culture-of-honor-by-danny-silk/): quotes Silk's "third level of anointing" and "a C in a grade scale." I didn't check the book itself. - *Unpunishable* (Danny Silk, 2019): a [blog summary](https://sariereads.com/danny-silk-responds-to-shawn-bolz-scandal-i-realize-my-silence-has-contributed-to-the-pain/) says Bolz wrote the foreword and quotes Silk's apology; secondary, not confirmed against the publisher. - [*Modern-Day Apostles* (Ché Ahn, 2019)](https://www.amazon.com/Modern-Day-Apostles-Operating-Apostolic-Anointing/dp/0768446732): Amazon credits Bill Johnson. - Bible passages the hosts argue from: 1 Corinthians 3:5–11; 1 Corinthians 12:28; Ephesians 2:20; Ephesians 4:11–13; Galatians 1:8; Jude 3. - **Not verified in this session:** Todd Bentley allegations; the "cosmic plan" and "20 witnesses" quotes beyond the clips; the 2018 40% elder departures; Eberle as author of an NAR systematic theology; Kathryn Krick's statements; Ché Ahn naming Johnson as his apostle; Bethel assigning *Culture of Honor* to students; the Origen and D. A. Carson attributions. ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - **0:00–5:29.** Cooper says his church's abuse came from NAR teaching, and critics say he's generalizing from one church. The host lists public scandals across NAR-linked ministries and frames the stakes as either a doctrine that spreads harm or a campaign that damages good churches. - **7:34–13:46.** Lewis relays a former elder's account: questions got met with loyalty tests and insults, and elders who objected lost their place. Cooper's clips describe an apostle who treated correction as an attack on God's plan and told an elder he had no standing to rebuke him. - **13:46–18:22.** Lewis says the doctrine raises the odds of abuse without making it certain, and he corrects himself when he overstates how much of the movement is abusive. - **19:12–29:38.** The host reads Silk's ranking of apostles over prophets over teachers and ties it to Cooper's account of elders who left quietly because they'd been told criticism would cost them God's blessing. Lewis argues the ranking shows up in several popular authors but doubts the "devote yourself to my teaching" version is common. - **29:38–38:55.** Silk grades teachers as a "C" anointing and compares Bible-focused teachers to Pharisees. Lewis reads 1 Corinthians 3 and argues Paul says the only foundation is Christ. - **38:55–45:06.** The host is angry that Bethel dismissed the kind of teachers who flagged Bolz and *The Passion Translation*. Lewis argues charismatic churches need both boldness and caution. - **45:06–59:40.** Stark and Eberle clips present apostles as present-day foundation stones who bring new revelation. Both hosts read Ephesians 2:20 as being about the gospel message, and Lewis says the new-revelation teaching works like scripture in practice even when leaders deny an open canon. - **59:40–1:08:09.** The hosts describe a drift from modest to foundational claims about apostles, and a habit of shrinking "apostle" to "church planter" under questioning. Lewis defends churches that mean "missionary" and offers a better screening question. - **1:08:09–1:16:46.** Johnson denies NAR membership and hierarchy; the host points to Johnson's foreword to an NAR book and to Silk's ranking. Lewis says the "yes-man board" problem also shows up in churches with no charismatic doctrine. - **1:16:46–1:24:21.** The host cites the Assemblies of God's mid-century decision to avoid apostle and prophet titles. Both close by saying they criticize out of care for people harmed, and the host offers his own criteria for what he'd look for in a church. ## 📰 Newsletter - Not applicable to this source as a WordPress item: the video covers church governance and spiritual abuse, with no software, WordPress, or open source content. - If a governance issue ever uses it: the transferable point is structural. Lewis says a board that can't remove its leader produces "yes men" whether or not the group shares the doctrine (1:15:36). ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Not applicable to this source; no developer audience or product. - Education: Not applicable to this source; no curriculum content. - Developer experience: Not applicable to this source; no docs or SDKs. - Developer marketing: Not applicable to this source; no campaign content. - Community management: one transferable pattern. When a report concerns the top leader, route it to a body the leader can't dismiss; the video's elder was removed for raising concerns (8:50). - Internal/external/cross-project: Not applicable to this source. #### OSPO - Policy & Governance: check any charter you maintain for "plurality in name only" (8:50): can the advisory group remove or overrule the lead, and has it ever done so? - License Compliance: Not applicable to this source. - Security Management: Not applicable to this source. - Software Inventory: Not applicable to this source. - Developer Support: Not applicable to this source. - Community Engagement: Not applicable to this source. - Strategic Alignment: Not applicable to this source. #### Community - Maintainers: Not applicable to this source; no software maintainers involved. - Contributors: Not applicable to this source. - Sponsors: Not applicable to this source. - Ecosystem: the Firefly report found leaders discouraged victims from contacting law enforcement ([Roys Report](https://roysreport.com/breaking-ihopkc-founder-mike-bickle-sexually-abused-17-women-investigation-finds/)); any incident process should state that reporters may go to outside authorities. #### WordPress - Core: Not applicable to this source; no software content. - Core Performance: Not applicable to this source; no software content. - Core AI: Not applicable to this source; no AI content. - **Core Program Team:** Not applicable to this source; no release coordination content. - Mobile: Not applicable to this source; no app content. - Playground: Not applicable to this source; no software content. - Community: Not applicable to this source as a WordPress action; the incident-routing point under DevRel covers it. - Training: Not applicable to this source; no lesson content. - Marketing: Not applicable to this source; no campaign content. - Support: Not applicable to this source; no support content. - Design: Not applicable to this source; no design content. - Documentation: Not applicable to this source; no documentation content. - Photos: Not applicable to this source; no media directory content. - TV: Not applicable to this source; no WordPress.tv content. - Polyglots: Not applicable to this source; no translation content. - Accessibility: Not applicable to this source; caption findings are in the Accessibility Assessment. - Meta: Not applicable to this source; no WordPress.org infrastructure content. - CLI: Not applicable to this source; no tooling content. - Hosting: Not applicable to this source; no hosting content. - Tide: Not applicable to this source; no plugin scoring content. - Openverse: Not applicable to this source; no media content. - Themes: Not applicable to this source; no theme content. - Plugins: Not applicable to this source; no plugin content. #### The WPOCC - Programs: Not applicable to this source. - Projects: governance clinics could use the video's test in reverse. Ask whether any role's authority is framed so that disagreeing with the person counts as disagreeing with the mission ("You no longer hold to the vision," 25:59). - Funding experiments: Not applicable to this source. #### FAIR - Technical independence: Not applicable to this source. - Policies and covenants: anti-capture language should cover self-investigation. Cooper's church leadership commissioned its own third-party review; the Bickle review came from an outside network (Tikkun Global). - Productized governance artifacts: Not applicable to this source. ## 🧪 Hypotheses - **H1.** Congregations whose bylaws let the senior leader remove elders, with no member vote or outside body able to remove the senior leader, record more unresolved misconduct complaints per 100 members than congregations where elders can remove the senior leader. - **H2.** Churches that teach blessing depends on alignment under an apostle (Silk's "funnel," 19:12) see a larger share of leaders leave without a public reason than churches that don't teach it. - **H3.** Leaders who define "apostle" as "church planter" when asked in public use hierarchy terms ("covering," "alignment," "under") at a higher rate in internal teaching than in public statements. - **H4.** Investigations commissioned by the accused organization's own board recommend removing the leader less often than investigations commissioned by an outside body. - **H5.** Denominations that restrict apostle and prophet as titles (the Assemblies of God's 1949 resolution) produce fewer "cannot rebuke the apostle" disputes in their archived discipline records. ## 📊 Methodology - **H1:** collect bylaws from a sample of 200 or more congregations (public filings, church websites), code removal powers, and pair with complaint data from survivor-advocacy intake records, controlling for congregation size and denomination. - **H2:** longitudinal survey of former elders and staff, asking whether they gave a reason when leaving and whether they were told criticism carries spiritual consequences (Cooper's 2018 account, 20:39). - **H3:** content analysis of sermon transcripts vs. press statements from the same leaders, using a fixed codebook of hierarchy terms; two coders, inter-rater reliability reported. - **H4:** compare published investigation reports (commissioning body, investigator independence, recommendation) such as Firefly's 68-page Bickle report against church-commissioned reviews. - **H5:** archival research at the Flower Pentecostal Heritage Center on post-1949 discipline cases. - **Source bias to control:** the Minor Prophets channel ran the *Passion Translation* investigation that led Bethel to pull its edition, and both hosts promote RemCon, a paid prophecy conference. Their reading of Bethel sources should be checked against the full texts. ## ❓ Questions - What did the third-party investigation of the Coopers' church find in its own words, and has any of it been released? - Does the full Childers interview support the clip framing, including the "cosmic plan" quote at 12:00? - If Lewis is right that yes-man boards appear without NAR doctrine (1:15:36), what does NAR doctrine add beyond ordinary structural risk? - Which NAR-linked churches give elders written authority to remove an apostle, and has any elder used it? - Does Silk's current published teaching still rank teachers as "C-grade," or has it changed since *Culture of Honor*? - Why did the hosts treat Eberle's "new revelation" clip as representative when they concede "devote yourself to my teaching" isn't widespread? ## 🔮 Future Research - No public dataset compares abuse outcomes across church governance models; H1 needs one. - Survivor accounts are mostly podcast interviews. A structured oral-history project with consent protocols would produce comparable evidence. - NAR is a contested label (Johnson rejects it, 1:08:31). Research needs a behavior-based definition, for example "teaches submission to an apostle as a condition of blessing," not self-identification. - The Assemblies of God 1949 resolution is a natural experiment worth a historical study. ## 💡 Implications - **Practice:** Lewis's question at 1:07:38 tests a teaching (blessing tied to submission) instead of a title, so it separates churches that use "apostle" to mean missionary from those that attach authority to it. - **Policy:** investigations commissioned by the same leadership they review have a structural conflict; the Firefly model (outside commissioning body) avoids it. - **Security and safety:** the "you're coming against God's plan" framing (12:00) turns a report into disloyalty, which suppresses reporting before any formal process starts. - **Education:** the dispute rests on readings of 1 Corinthians 3 and Ephesians 2:20; members who can read those passages in context can evaluate the claims without depending on a leader's interpretation. - **Funding:** members who leave also stop giving, which the critics cite as collateral damage (4:46); the same mechanism gives leaders a financial reason to discourage departures. ## 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment - Reading level estimate: Flesch-Kincaid grade 6.4, Flesch Reading Ease 75.7, computed on 14,523 caption words across 979 sentence breaks. Auto-caption punctuation splits run-on speech, so true spoken complexity is higher than the score shows. #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: can't be assessed from the transcript; it doesn't show whether slides or on-screen quotes appear. - Improve: an on-screen diagram of Silk's funnel (apostles, prophets, teachers) and a side-by-side of 1 Corinthians 3:10 and 3:11 would carry the two central arguments. #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: 84-minute two-person conversation with four played clips. - Improve: chapter markers at 10:43, 29:38, 48:44, and 1:13:52 would let listeners jump to the four main arguments. #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Lewis defines *apostolos* as "sent one" (1:03:39); the hosts define motte-and-bailey and equivocation informally. - Improve: define NAR, ecclesiology, five-fold ministry, and dispensationalism at first use; the host defines only NAR. #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: one usable exercise, Lewis's diagnostic question (1:07:38). - Improve: a short checklist of the host's closing criteria (1:21:36) that a viewer could apply to a published statement of faith. #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: premise-to-conclusion framing at 24:22 ("What are the premises and what are the natural conclusions"). - Improve: a timeline of the drift Lewis describes (59:40) and a table separating verified allegations from unverified ones. #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: dialogue with disagreement (Lewis pushes back at 1:03:05 and 1:15:36). - Improve: a moderated space for former members that doesn't route through promotional channels. #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: none built in. - Improve: reflection prompts on the diagnostic question, framed without assuming the viewer attends or wants to attend a church. #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Lewis's food-safety analogy (13:46) and the "dirty restaurant" analogy (1:16:46) describe risk in environmental terms. - Improve: Not applicable to this source beyond those analogies; no ecological content. ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Not applicable to this source as a web page; YouTube's player semantics sit outside the video content. - Improve: a published transcript with speaker labels would give screen reader users the structure the captions lack. #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Not applicable to this source; player controls belong to YouTube. - Improve: chapter markers give keyboard users jump points in an 84-minute file. #### Contrast and readability - Present: can't be assessed from the transcript. - Improve: if quotes appear on screen, check them against 4.5:1 (WCAG 1.4.3). #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Not applicable to this source; no page text. - Improve: Not applicable to this source. #### Media and captions - Present: auto-generated captions only. Errors change meaning: "N" for NAR throughout (0:00 "N ecclesiology"), "Bethl" for Bethel, "spiritual peace" for "spiritual abuse" (1:16:04), "saing" for an assault term (3:18), and speaker changes marked only by ">>". - Improve: human-corrected captions (WCAG 1.2.2 Captions, Prerecorded) with speaker identification; a downloadable corrected transcript (1.2.8 Media Alternative). #### Forms and interactions - Present: Not applicable to this source. - Improve: Not applicable to this source. #### Standards reference - WCAG 2.2 AA gaps: 1.2.2 (caption accuracy: errors on proper nouns and the key term "abuse"). 1.2.5 (audio description) can't be assessed without the video frames. ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: US evangelical and charismatic frame; brief mention that the Coopers' apostle has UK ties (29:02); Emma Stark clip. - Improve: NAR networks operate across Africa, Latin America, and Asia (the host names none); the analysis is limited to US and UK examples. #### Inclusive language - Present: the hosts report, without endorsing, that dissenting members were called "crazy, menopausal" (8:18). - Improve: Lewis's balance analogy assigns nurture to mothers and risk-taking to fathers (40:40); a non-gendered version would make the same point. Terms like "hoi polloi" (33:37) and "spooky group" (1:08:09) are dismissive shorthand. #### Neurodiversity support - Present: long unbroken segments; the host apologizes for a long explanation at 31:44. - Improve: chapter markers and a written summary of the three premises. #### Representation - Present: two male hosts; women appear as Korey Cooper (one clip), Emma Stark (one clip), and Kathryn Krick (criticized, not heard). - Improve: survivor voices appear only through Cooper clips; the video doesn't include any former member directly. #### Psychological safety - Present: the hosts state their motive as care for people harmed (1:19:22) and say they don't hate people in the NAR. - Improve: no content warning precedes the abuse allegations at 1:49, which include abuse of a minor. The host's closing advice (1:21:36) assumes the viewer will look for another church; viewers who are leaving church altogether get no guidance. ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - **Premise-conclusion test (24:22).** The hosts test Cooper's claim by checking whether published NAR teaching (Silk, Stark, Eberle) supplies the premises the apostle's behavior would need. That targets the doctrine-causes-abuse claim directly instead of relying on anecdote. Clarify by quoting each source's page or timestamp on screen. - **Textual argument on 1 Corinthians 3 (35:08–37:08).** Deductive from the passage: Silk cites verse 10 for apostolic foundation; verse 11 names Christ as the only foundation, and verses 5–7 call Paul and Apollos servants. The argument holds on the text's own terms. - **Calibrated causal claim (14:17, 1:16:04).** Both hosts claim risk, not inevitability, which is the claim their evidence can support. See [H3]. - **Self-correction (16:36, 29:02).** Lewis retracts "all we've seen" and says he's "not as convinced" one practice is pervasive. - **Primary-source contradiction (1:08:31).** Johnson's "we don't belong to anything of that nature" set against his credit on *Modern-Day Apostles*, which I confirmed on the Amazon listing. #### Fallacies - **Hasty generalization (2:34–3:18).** The opening list of leader scandals is offered alongside Cooper's claim that abuse is "systemic... due to its faulty ecclesiology." A list of individual cases shows scandal is frequent; it doesn't show the doctrine caused it, and the host later says "abuse can happen in any environment" (1:22:18). Fix: show a mechanism for each case (as the hosts do later for the Coopers' church) or compare rates against non-NAR churches. [view highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01m2bsnp10s8pwkyp54wrfkjy2) - **Equivocation, identified by the hosts (1:02:26, 13:06).** The hosts say NAR leaders use "apostle" to mean church planter when questioned and act on the authority of the Twelve otherwise; the host flags the same move on "anointing." The Johnson clip is their evidence. Lewis's objection (1:03:05) is fair: the pattern doesn't apply to every continuationist church. Fix, for the churches in question: state an apostle's actual authority in bylaws. [view highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01m2bsp0g722p7j80dj7tp4c4t) - **False dilemma (5:29).** "The largest heretical movement... since Arianism" or "a smear campaign organized by Satan himself." The hosts' own conclusion is a third option: a structural risk that doesn't make every church abusive. Fix: frame the question as risk, as Lewis does at 14:17. - **Unsupported universal (24:22).** "Everyone in the charismatic world has a John Bevere book on their shelf" supports "pervasive" with a figure of speech. Fix: cite sales figures or a survey. - **Appeal to motive, hedged (40:13).** The *Passion Translation* aside calls the source "a crazy guy's website." The plagiarism finding stands on its evidence ([Christian Post](https://www.christianpost.com/news/the-passion-translation-faces-mounting-rejection.html)); the insult adds nothing. Fix: name the source. #### Tone of voice - Conversational and joking: "funnel cake" (24:51), "cone of shame" (25:18), "I bind you, comments, in Jesus' name" (57:26). - Angry at specific points: "I'm getting worked up" (40:13), "I'm angry" (40:40), "I think that paragraph is sinful" (45:06). - Pastoral in the close (1:19:22–1:22:18). - Commercial interruptions: Patreon (18:22) and RemCon promotion (6:32, 1:23:03). ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis Allegations about the Coopers' church come from Cooper's clips and Lewis's summary of a former elder. They're the speakers' claims; the only independent confirmation I found is a secondary report that a third-party investigation found "a longstanding pattern of abuse" ([Rock Celebrities](https://rockcelebrities.net/john-cooper-comes-clean-on-spiritual-abuse-in-his-church-ive-waited-two-years-to-reveal-this/)). - **Deny.** - Bill Johnson's clip (1:08:31): "we don't belong to anything of that nature." That's a denial of affiliation, not of any abuse, and the host plays an excerpt without the full interview. - Critics summarized at 4:04 minimize: "it is people, not the theology." That can be a fair objection as well as a minimization; the video names no critic, so you can't tell which. - **Attack.** - Per Lewis's summary (8:18), members who questioned leadership were called "crazy, menopausal," "filled with bitterness," or "poisoned" by someone. These attack the questioner's mental state instead of answering the question. - Per Cooper (20:39), departing elders were told God would "remove the blessing from your life" if they spoke critically. That's a threat aimed at future reporting. - Critics of Cooper and Childers call their work a "witch hunt" and "moral panic" (4:46), which attacks the reporters' motives. - **Reverse victim and offender.** - Per Cooper (11:18): the apostle described Cooper's challenge as "coming after me... a satanic attack." The leader being questioned becomes the target of spiritual attack. - Per Cooper (12:00–12:36): an elder's charge of sin became "you are coming against God's cosmic plan" and "you're trying to step into apostolic shoes." The accuser becomes the one out of order. - The mechanism is doctrinal: if the apostle carries God's plan, any accusation counts as opposition to God, so the reversal needs no further argument. - **Emotional cues and related fallacies.** - "Do you really love me?" (8:18) turns a doctrinal question into a loyalty test (appeal to emotion). - The "antichrist spirit" label the host describes (13:06) depends on the equivocation on "anointing" noted in Fallacies. - **Checking the speakers themselves.** The hosts don't deny or reverse; they concede limits (16:36, 1:22:18). Their ridicule ("crazy guy's website," "spooky group") is attack-adjacent, aimed at sources, not at survivors. ## 🎯 Conclusion - **Bottom line.** The video makes a narrower case than its title. It shows that published NAR-aligned teaching ranks apostles over elders and teachers and ties blessing to submission, so the "cannot rebuke an apostle" response Cooper describes follows from those premises. Both hosts stop short of saying the doctrine makes abuse inevitable, and Lewis locates part of the problem in bylaws that also fail in non-charismatic churches. - **What's verified.** Bickle (Firefly report, 17 victims), Bethel's acknowledgment of failures over Bolz, Bethel pulling its *Passion Translation* edition, and Johnson's credit on *Modern-Day Apostles* check out. Cooper's specific quotes are only as reliable as the clips; secondary reports confirm the family structure and a third-party finding of a "longstanding pattern of abuse." - **Next steps for readers.** - Listen to the full Childers episode #402 to check the clip context. - Read the Firefly executive summary for a documented case. - Use Lewis's question (1:07:38) as a way to read any group's published teaching. ## 🔄 Refactor Appendix — Why John Cooper is Right About NAR Abuse ### 📚 Literature Atoms (H3) #### [H1] Well-intended doctrine can still produce harmful leadership > [!quote] ID:rw_01m2bsmnxc9bxzv48z32yvm25f > You guys are doing this with good intent. your doctrine is off and it's leading you to do actual evil things to people. **Context & use**: - 9:30, Korey Cooper clip played by the host; sets the thesis for the whole episode. - Separates motive from outcome, so the question becomes what the doctrine does, not whether leaders mean well. **Tags**: #xref **Highlight**: [view highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01m2bsmnxc9bxzv48z32yvm25f)  #### [H2] Culture of Honor ranks teachers as C-grade anointing > [!quote] ID:rw_01m2bsmw9h1t89atn45azz6691 > it is not the highest anointing but only the third level of anointing. It is a C in a grade scale **Context & use**: - 32:24, host reading Danny Silk, *Culture of Honor* ch. 2; wording matches third-party reviews. - Primary-source evidence that the hierarchy is taught in a book Bethel-linked churches use, not only in Cooper's church. **Tags**: #xref #share **Highlight**: [view highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01m2bsmw9h1t89atn45azz6691)  #### [H3] Big-man-at-top doctrine raises abuse risk without guaranteeing it > [!quote] ID:rw_01m2bsn4kajak849r0jmvxth6x > even having a big man at the top doesn't necessarily guarantee spiritual abuse, but it does make it so that it does create an environment **Context & use**: - 1:16:04, host, right after Lewis says the problem is partly "a bylaws thing." - The claim the evidence can carry: risk, not inevitability. **Tags**: #xref #aphorisms **Highlight**: [view highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01m2bsn4kajak849r0jmvxth6x)  #### [H4] Ask whether submission to an apostle promises grace > [!quote] ID:rw_01m2bsncg3gss2wn6ehyqb92g7 > I would ask the question, is there a supernatural grace on my life if I submit to an apostle? **Context & use**: - 1:07:38, Josh Lewis. - Tests the teaching instead of the title, which sidesteps the equivocation on "apostle." **Tags**: #xref #share **Highlight**: [view highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01m2bsncg3gss2wn6ehyqb92g7)  #### [H5] Apostle means church planter until authority is exercised > [!quote] ID:rw_01m2bsp0g722p7j80dj7tp4c4t > we don't mean like the authority of the 12, but they functionally behave as if it's the authority of the 12. **Context & use**: - 1:02:26, host describing the equivocation; Lewis pushes back that it isn't true of every charismatic church. - Names the gap between stated and practiced authority. **Tags**: #xref **Highlight**: [view highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01m2bsp0g722p7j80dj7tp4c4t)  ### 🧠 Permanent Candidates (H4) #### [P1] An uncorrectable leader is a structural risk before it's a character flaw **Claim** (one sentence, Courtney's voice): When a group's teaching makes correcting the leader equal to opposing God, abuse becomes more likely no matter how well-meaning the leader is. **Evidence pointer**: [[#H3]], [[#H1]] **Scope & conditions**: Holds where no body can remove the leader. Lewis's counterexample (1:15:36): non-charismatic churches with yes-man boards show the same failure, so doctrine is one route to the structure, not the only one. **Links** (≥1 with annotation): - [[Spiritual abuse]] — because extends - [[New Apostolic Reformation]] — because applies-in NAR apostolic governance - [[DARVO]] — because evidence-for how the reversal gets its authority  #### [P2] Test what a group promises for submission, not what titles it uses **Claim** (one sentence, Courtney's voice): The question that separates healthy from controlling authority is what a group says you gain or lose by submitting, because titles get redefined under questioning. **Evidence pointer**: [[#H4]], [[#H5]] **Scope & conditions**: Works on published teaching and sermons; less useful where doctrine is kept private, as Cooper says it was in his church (1:00:32). **Links** (≥1 with annotation): - [[New Apostolic Reformation]] — because applies-in evaluating apostolic claims - [[Equivocation]] — because contrasts on stated vs. practiced meaning  ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue - [F1] Check the "cosmic plan" clip against the full Childers episode #402 — https://open.spotify.com/episode/3FtXyz8Wr7ggLOsgY9s9mJ #fleeting #inbox - [F2] Has the Coopers' church released the third-party investigation findings? — Remnant Radio episode lists them at 1:06:35 #fleeting #inbox - [F3] Read the Assemblies of God 1949 Resolution No. 7 text — Flower Pentecostal Heritage Center post #fleeting #inbox ### → Things 3 (max 2 actions) - [ ] Listen to Alisa Childers Podcast #402 and compare against the clips at 11:18 and 20:00 — verification gap in this note #things - [ ] Read the Firefly report summary on IHOPKC — primary source behind the 17-victim figure #things  📄 **Full text:** [[Full Document Contents/Articles/Why John Cooper Is Right About NAR Abuse.md|Why John Cooper Is Right About NAR Abuse by Minor Prophets]] ## Highlights - [2:34] himself in front of his male interns and staff in hotel rooms. Bethl church leaders Chris Valatin, Danny Silk, and Bill Johnson. They all knew about this and refused to warn the church of the wolf they had endorsed and platformed. Danny Silk went on to include BS's forward in his book, Unpunishable after he already knew what was going on. Furthermore, the foundational figures of this movement have also been revealed to be fraudulent abusers. Paul Kaine, one of the most important prophets of this movement, was exposed for sexual abuse of his male interns, alcoholism, and blackmailing people to prevent them from exposing his grievous sins. Bob Jones, [3:18] another prophetic founding father, was exposed for using his supposed prophetic gift for manipulating and sexually uh uh saing multiple women. Even the historical heroes of this movement known as God's generals like John G. Lake, Charles Fox Parm, John Alexander Dowi, and William Brham have all been exposed for being fraudulent. This movement has no shortage of scandal. But John Cooper goes even further than what I just described. He puts his and his wife Cory's experience of spiritual abuse in their local congregation as evidence that the fraud and abuse is not isolated to a few churches and leaders, but is systemic in this movement due to its ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01m2bsnp10s8pwkyp54wrfkjy2)) - Note: A list of leader scandals is offered as support for a systemic, doctrine-caused claim; the guest later concedes abuse happens in non-charismatic churches with the same leadership structure (1:15:36). - Tags: fallacy/hasty-generalization - [8:50] things were just swept under the rug? The common denominator was well we had an apostle the what the apostle says goes and he could appeal to a plurality of leadership but when anyone in that plurality would speak out they would slowly be pushed away and removed from that leadership. So uh it is the smokec screen of plurality without any of its actual function. It's plurality and name only. One of the questions that's being raised up right now is is this a result of the ecclesiology of the theology and does this ecclesiology make this type of behavior inevitable? I'm going to uh let Corey say something. She she said this [9:30] in a in a moment and it caught it caught my ear and really provided the grounds for what this discussion is going to be like today. >> You guys are doing this with good intent. your doctrine is off and it's leading you to do actual evil things to people. >> What I want to do, I want to go through uh some of the claims and then I want to look at Danny Silk's uh Culture of Honor and I'm going to compare uh that's basically the one of the N manuals actually uh Culture of Honor. There's there is an actual systematic theology for the New Apostolic Reformation ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01m2bsmnxc9bxzv48z32yvm25f)) - Note: Thesis: doctrine, not only individual character, produces the harm; plurality of elders exists in name only. - Tags: atom/literature/h1 - [31:44] as though God himself has given blueprints to certain individuals to reproduce heaven on earth. Then when we uh connect that to what he has to say to teachers and I'm sorry I'm taking a long time to explain this but I want to tease out this idea that actually there is a soft version of devote yourself to the teaching of the apostles that is present within the book culture of honor. He goes on in the very same chapter he begins to denigrate the role of a teacher and it's goes under the heading third teachers and he says next we have teachers as I mentioned the teacher is [32:24] generally accepted as the highest anointing level in the American church. I don't I don't know how he's determining what is an anointing level but the truth is that it is not the highest anointing but only the third level of anointing. It is a C in a grade scale and it is what keeps the church only average in its effects and influence. He goes on to uh say this about teachers. Our current church culture has a high value for the security we feel when we are able to prove that what we have devoted our life to is right. And he says this in a porative sense that this is a bad thing ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01m2bsmw9h1t89atn45azz6691)) - Note: Host reads Danny Silk, Culture of Honor ch. 2: teacher anointing ranked "C in a grade scale." Wording matches third-party reviews of the book. - Tags: atom/literature/h2 - [1:02:26] >> Well, and that's something that's very common in any is that they'll equivocate on the word apostle. Yes. >> So, when you when you question them about it, they'll say, "Oh, no. I mean, apostle just means church planter. That's that's how we're using it. We're not, we don't mean like the authority of the 12, but they functionally behave as if it's the authority of the 12. >> What do you think about this? Is is there a world in which like hey there is such a thing as a continuity of this gift of apostle and but and everybody who uses that is actually just hiding the ball that they [1:03:05] really believe that they they are continuing with the authority of the 12 like what what's happening there? Um, okay. I I don't care for uh you know some some children's articulation there um personally um because it would be it would incline anyone to think that anyone who goes to a charismatic church who believes in all of the spiritual gifts having continued then then they're playing this word game. Um and it's unfortunate that some people lie and hide their doctrine. That's bad. But if you were to come to my church tomorrow and ask me Josh, do you believe that there are apostles today? I would say ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01m2bsp0g722p7j80dj7tp4c4t)) - Note: Speakers name the equivocation (apostle = church planter when questioned, authority of the Twelve in practice); the guest pushes back on generalizing it to every charismatic church. - Tags: fallacy/equivocation - [1:06:57] >> Yeah, >> I I think so. So there there's so there's there's a p perspective which is that now some people do just genuinely mean that the the apostolic gift is just a church planting gift. >> Yeah. Missionary. >> Um and but the problem is from a from an average churchgoer point of view, you don't know who's who. That's kind of the That is kind of the challenge because you you have people that kind of kind of play games. So, I'm going to play a clip from from Bill Johnson from the Rediscovering Bethl series and then I'm going to let him speak and then I'm [1:07:38] going to go back and read what Danny Silk had to say and we're going to just see if we see this going on. Um, >> c can I offer another question? Instead of, hey, does your church believe in apostles? I would ask the question, is there a supernatural grace on my life if I submit to an apostle? >> That's the question I would ask question. >> I think that's better than do you believe in apostles? Because then people are, oh, and I don't know. No. Ask the question, do will I have supernatural impartation in my life if I submit to apostolic leadership? That's the question you want to ask. If that's the ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01m2bsncg3gss2wn6ehyqb92g7)) - Note: Diagnostic question (Josh Lewis): ask whether submission to an apostle is tied to supernatural blessing, not whether a church "believes in apostles". - Tags: action/h1 - [1:15:36] They don't even believe in spiritual gifts. Um, but the guy that the lead executive senior pastor is still in charge and he everyone's either a yes man or they get pushed out. So, um, this to me seems more of a structural thing, a bylaws thing, than it has to do exclusively with doctrine. But I could certainly see how people who have gotten high on their own supply, thinking they're the foundation for the church, refusing to listen to anyone else, I could see that as a natural byproduct and outflow of that doctrine for sure. [1:16:04] Well, when your doctrine precludes any other form of bylaws, right? So like um because this is how you get heaven to earth, right? Uh Danny Silk says you're trying to get heaven's results without heaven's uh template. And this is heaven's template. Only heaven's template can get heaven to earth. And so if that's your if that's what you believe, then you've got to have the big man at the top. Um but even having a big man at the top doesn't necessarily guarantee spiritual abuse, but it does make it so that it does create an environment that is ripe for spiritual peace. You used the metaphor earlier of ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01m2bsn4kajak849r0jmvxth6x)) - Note: Risk-factor claim, not a determinism claim: doctrine that rules out any other bylaws makes abuse more likely without guaranteeing it. "spiritual peace" is a caption error for "spiritual abuse". - Tags: atom/zettel/z1