YWAM vs. Stanford Prison Experiment Jenny McGrath 566

YWAM vs. Stanford Prison Experiment | Jenny McGrath | 566 ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/gIz4ttIDjh4/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [YWAM vs. Stanford Prison Experiment | Jenny McGrath | 566](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIz4ttIDjh4) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: #cults #psychological-abuse #religious-manipulation #stanford-prison-experiment #ywam #coercive-control #religious-trauma #youth-missions > author: William Branham Historical Research > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIz4ttIDjh4 > date created: 2024-12-28 13:45 > > # 🏷️ Title: YWAM vs. Stanford Prison Experiment | Jenny McGrath | 566 >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Research forced confession practices in religious organizations — identify red flags #religious-manipulation - [H2] Examine information control mechanisms in isolated communities — document patterns #coercive-control - [H3] Document psychological impact of public humiliation rituals — support survivors #psychological-abuse ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [[#📝 Summary]] - [[#📖 Main Content]] - [[#🗒️ Notes]] - [[#📚 References]] - [[#🗣️ Paraphrase]] - [[#📰 Newsletter]] - [[#✅ Action Items]] - [[#🧪 Hypotheses]] - [[#📊 Methodology]] - [[#❓ Questions]] - [[#🔮 Future Research]] - [[#💡 Implications]] - [[#🧠 Learning Styles Assessment]] - [[#📊 Accessibility Assessment]] - [[#🌍 DEIB Assessment]] - [[#✅ Logical Validity]] - [[#🛡️ DARVO Analysis]] - [[#🎯 Conclusion]] ### 🔗 References - [William Branham Historical Research](https://william-braham.org) - [Stanford Prison Experiment](https://www.prisonexp.org/) ## 📝 Summary - John Collins and Jenny McGrath discuss parallels between the Stanford Prison Experiment and cult dynamics in Youth With A Mission (YWAM) and the Branham cult - The Stanford Prison Experiment demonstrated how good people can abuse authority when placed in hierarchical systems with power imbalances - Both cults and the experiment use isolation, information control, role assignment, and humiliation rituals to maintain control - YWAM employs forced confessions, public humiliation, sleep deprivation, and coercive giving practices - Understanding these parallels helps explain how otherwise good people become perpetrators in high-control religious environments ## 📖 Main Content The conversation explores how the Stanford Prison Experiment's findings about authority and abuse apply to religious cult environments. The experiment showed that randomly assigned roles as guards or prisoners led to rapid psychological abuse and dehumanization within days. Similarly, cult structures create artificial hierarchies that enable ordinary people to harm others while believing they're acting out of love or religious duty. Key mechanisms include: controlled information environments that create echo chambers, arbitrary rule changes that destabilize thinking, humiliation rituals disguised as spiritual practices, and forced confessions that provide leverage over members. These create psychological prisons where members self-enforce their own captivity. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/gIz4ttIDjh4?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and PTSD parallel - Key idea: Coming out of cults resembles war veteran PTSD - Evidence: "I don't understand this culture... came from this horrific place that I don't want to go back to" #### ⏱️ [06:30](https://youtu.be/gIz4ttIDjh4?t=390) — [H2] Good people in bad systems - Key idea: Cult members often appear as loving, kind people while causing harm - Evidence: "My grandfather was a loving, kind, gentle man... but he was a cult leader and he caused destruction" #### ⏱️ [12:15](https://youtu.be/gIz4ttIDjh4?t=735) — [H2] Stanford Prison Experiment explained - Key idea: Random assignment to guard/prisoner roles led to abuse within days - Evidence: "Within a very short amount of time there was psychological abuse, physical abuse, torture, deprivation" #### ⏱️ [18:45](https://youtu.be/gIz4ttIDjh4?t=1125) — [H1] Dehumanization through separation - Key idea: Guards wore sunglasses creating psychological distance - Evidence: "You couldn't see into their eyes... it created a separation of the humanity" #### ⏱️ [25:20](https://youtu.be/gIz4ttIDjh4?t=1520) — [H2] Information control in YWAM - Key idea: Bases control outside information access creating echo chambers - Evidence: "Very rare that there's a sense of here's someone we totally disagree with... let's hear what they have to say" #### ⏱️ [32:10](https://youtu.be/gIz4ttIDjh4?t=1930) — [H3] Learned helplessness from instability - Key idea: Unpredictable changes create dependency on leadership - Evidence: "God could call us to shut down YWAM tomorrow... that keeps you in hypervigilant state" #### ⏱️ [38:45](https://youtu.be/gIz4ttIDjh4?t=2325) — [H1] Public humiliation rituals in YWAM - Key idea: Forced confession sessions create psychological control - Evidence: "Compliment sandwich... call out something that had pissed you off about that person... public humiliation of everyone" #### ⏱️ [45:30](https://youtu.be/gIz4ttIDjh4?t=2730) — [H2] Confession as blackmail material - Key idea: Forced sharing creates leverage for leaders - Evidence: "These people now know this deepest darkest thing about me so I need to stay in allegiance" #### ⏱️ [52:15](https://youtu.be/gIz4ttIDjh4?t=3135) — [H3] Coercive giving practices - Key idea: Emotional manipulation leads to forced donations - Evidence: "God wants me to give you my only laptop... who could come up with the bigger, better, or more sacrificial thing" #### ⏱️ [58:40](https://youtu.be/gIz4ttIDjh4?t=3520) — [H1] Identifying healthy vs coercive confession - Key idea: True consent requires ability to say no without consequences - Evidence: "If someone cannot say no, any yes that's given is meaningless" ## 📚 References - [Stanford Prison Experiment Official Site](https://www.prisonexp.org/) - [William Branham Historical Research](https://william-braham.org) - [Steven Hassan's BITE Model](https://freedomofmind.com/the-bite-model-and-religious-cult-groups/) - [Polyvagal Theory - Stephen Porges](https://www.stephenporges.com/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - The Stanford Prison Experiment demonstrates how situational factors can make ordinary people abuse authority, explaining how good people in cult leadership positions can cause harm - Both experiments and cults use isolation, role assignment, and information control to create psychological prisons where members police themselves - YWAM specifically employs forced confessions, public humiliation, sleep deprivation, and coercive giving to maintain control over young adults ## 📰 Newsletter Understanding cult psychology helps us recognize manipulation in religious communities. The Stanford Prison Experiment revealed how quickly normal people can become abusive when given authority over others - a dynamic that explains much about high-control religious groups. Key warning signs include forced confession sessions, public humiliation disguised as spiritual growth, information isolation, and coercive giving practices. These create psychological prisons where members feel unable to leave due to shame, financial loss, or social consequences. For those supporting cult survivors, remember that perpetrators often aren't inherently evil but were shaped by toxic systems. Recovery requires understanding these psychological dynamics and rebuilding healthy boundaries around consent and agency. Resources: [International Cultic Studies Association](https://www.icsahome.com/), [Freedom of Mind Resource Center](https://freedomofmind.com/), [Cult Recovery Network](https://www.cultrecovery.com/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create resources about ethical technology use in religious contexts - Education: Develop workshops on recognizing digital manipulation tactics - Community management: Establish clear consent protocols for community interactions #### Community - Maintainers: Develop governance templates that prevent concentration of power - Contributors: Create safe reporting mechanisms for community abuse - Sponsors: Require transparency in funding religious or educational initiatives #### FAIR - Technical independence: Document provenance of religious education materials - Policies: Establish anti-manipulation guidelines for educational content - Governance artifacts: Create charters protecting individual agency in group settings ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Religious groups with hierarchical authority structures are more likely to develop abusive practices than those with distributed leadership - Information isolation correlates strongly with increased susceptibility to manipulation in religious communities - Public confession rituals serve primarily as control mechanisms rather than genuine spiritual practices - Sleep deprivation and physical stress increase compliance with authority in religious settings ### 📊 Methodology - Comparative analysis of governance structures in healthy vs. problematic religious organizations - Survey research on information access patterns in isolated religious communities - Psychological assessment of confession practices across different religious traditions ### ❓ Questions - How can religious communities maintain spiritual intimacy while protecting individual agency? - What governance structures best prevent the concentration of abusive power in religious organizations? - How do we distinguish between healthy spiritual challenge and psychological manipulation? ### 🔮 Future Research - Longitudinal study of psychological outcomes for YWAM participants - Comparative analysis of confession practices across religious traditions - Development of early warning systems for identifying abusive religious practices ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Religious communities need clear consent protocols and power-sharing structures - Policy: Educational institutions should teach about psychological manipulation in religious contexts - Security: Isolated religious communities require external oversight to prevent abuse - Education: Survivors need specialized therapy addressing religious trauma and complex family dynamics ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Grade 12-14 (some complex psychological concepts) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Clear examples and concrete comparisons between experiments and cult practices - Improve: Diagrams showing power structures, flowcharts of manipulation techniques #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full audio conversation with personal narratives and examples - Improve: Accompanying music or sound effects to emphasize emotional impact #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Rich dialogue with detailed explanations and analogies - Improve: Glossary of psychological terms, comparison charts #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Real-world examples and personal experiences to relate to - Improve: Interactive exercises for identifying manipulation, role-playing scenarios #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear cause-and-effect relationships between techniques and outcomes - Improve: Statistical data on cult practices, decision trees for recognizing abuse #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Dialogue format encourages discussion and shared processing - Improve: Discussion guides for support groups, peer processing questions #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Personal reflection opportunities through individual stories - Improve: Journaling prompts, self-assessment tools for recognizing manipulation #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Connections to broader human behavioral patterns - Improve: Analogies to animal behavior, ecosystem thinking about community health ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear speaker identification and context transitions - Improve: Detailed descriptions of emotional tone, structured headings for navigation #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard video player controls available - Improve: Timestamped chapter navigation, skip-to-content options #### Contrast and readability - Present: Clear audio quality for hearing-dependent content - Improve: Visual transcript with high contrast formatting #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Transcript can be reformatted for different screen sizes - Improve: Responsive design ensuring readability at 200% zoom #### Media and captions - Present: Full audio content available - Improve: Professional captions with speaker identification, downloadable transcript #### Standards reference - Follow WCAG 2.2 AA guidelines for video content accessibility ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion includes multiple religious contexts and cultural backgrounds - Improve: More international perspectives on religious manipulation, diverse case studies #### Inclusive language - Present: Respectful discussion of religious differences, person-first language for survivors - Improve: More inclusive pronouns, broader religious terminology #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear structure with distinct topics and transitions - Improve: Content warnings for trauma discussions, varied pacing options #### Representation - Present: Both male and female perspectives, different cult experiences - Improve: More diverse religious backgrounds, international experiences #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful treatment of trauma, validation of survivor experiences - Improve: Explicit content warnings, resource lists for support ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Clear progression from general principles (Stanford experiment) to specific applications (cult practices) - Inductive strength: Multiple examples support broader patterns about authority and abuse - Causal reasoning: Well-established connections between isolation, authority, and psychological manipulation - Analogical strength: Valid comparisons between experimental and real-world conditions #### Fallacies - Appeal to emotion: Some arguments rely heavily on personal trauma stories rather than evidence - strengthen with research data - Hasty generalization: Limited examples from specific groups applied broadly - need more diverse case studies #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Respectful, educational, empathetic with appropriate gravity for serious subject matter ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No significant denial patterns present - Attack: No attacks on accusers, respectful treatment of all parties - Reverse victim/offender: Appropriate acknowledgment that perpetrators may also be victims of systems - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Appropriate emotional processing without manipulation ## 🎯 Conclusion The Stanford Prison Experiment provides a crucial framework for understanding how ordinary people become perpetrators in cult environments. The parallel systems of authority, isolation, humiliation, and information control create psychological prisons that are self-reinforcing. Recognition of these patterns helps both in prevention and in understanding the complex dynamics facing survivors who must reconcile love for family members who caused them harm. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### [H1] Authority structures enable ordinary people to commit abuse > [!quote] YWAM vs. Stanford Prison Experiment by Jenny McGrath & John Collins via William Branham Historical Research. Published 2024. > "Good people can do bad things and bad people can do good things... role assignment identity... they take on this identity and feel empowered by it" The Stanford Prison Experiment's core finding applies directly to cult dynamics where hierarchical religious authority corrupts normal moral behavior. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/gIz4ttIDjh4?t=735) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_authority_corruption ### [H2] Information control creates psychological isolation > [!quote] YWAM vs. Stanford Prison Experiment > "Very insular... the literature is from fellow YWAMers... it really does become an echo chamber" Controlled information environments in religious communities mirror prison-like isolation tactics. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/gIz4ttIDjh4?t=1520) #xref ID:rw_information_control ### [H1] Public confession serves as blackmail mechanism > [!quote] YWAM vs. Stanford Prison Experiment > "These people now know this deepest darkest thing about me so I need to stay in allegiance with them" Forced confession rituals create leverage that prevents members from leaving abusive religious systems. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/gIz4ttIDjh4?t=2730) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_confession_blackmail --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) #### [Z1] Situational factors override individual moral character - Applies when authority structures lack accountability mechanisms - Pointer to Stanford experiment findings at 12:15 - Links: [[Authority-Corruption]] [[Moral-Psychology]] #### [Z2] Information isolation increases susceptibility to manipulation - Scope limited to closed community environments - Pointer to YWAM echo chamber discussion at 25:20 - Links: [[Information-Control]] [[Cult-Tactics]] #### [Z3] Forced confession creates psychological leverage - Condition requires power imbalance and social consequences for refusal - Pointer to blackmail discussion at 45:30 - Links: [[Co --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] Heat. [00:07] [music] [00:17] Heat. [music] [00:24] >> [music] [00:29] [music] [00:31] >> Hello and welcome to another episode of [00:33] the William Brandom Historical Research [00:35] Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, [00:37] the author, and founder of William Brham [00:39] Historical Research at [00:40] William-Brumham.org. [00:42] And with me, I have my co-host, [00:44] researcher, and friend, Jenny McGrath, [00:46] founder of Indwell Movement. Jenny, it's [00:49] good to be back and um a [clears throat] [00:51] little bit excited to talk about this [00:53] subject that we're getting into today. I [00:55] don't know if you know this or not, but [00:57] in some of the podcast it I've mentioned [01:00] this before because it hit me one [01:02] moment. I was I was actually watching a [01:04] movie when this happened and it was a [01:06] movie about a guy. He's suffering PTSD. [01:08] he'd been in the wars and suddenly I [01:11] realized that there were so many [01:12] similarities between being in a prison [01:15] camp in another country, being raised in [01:18] it, and then suddenly coming back to the [01:20] United States and waking up and [01:21] thinking, "Oh my gosh, I don't [01:23] understand this culture. I don't [01:25] understand this life. I came from this [01:27] horrific place that I don't want to go [01:29] back to, but I don't really understand [01:31] the place that I went to." And that was [01:33] my life coming out of a cult for the [01:34] first few years. I've obviously got over [01:36] that. And then when you mentioned the [01:38] Stanford prison experiment, I got to [01:41] thinking about all of the similarities [01:43] between that and the cult in a different [01:45] way, which it's interesting. So, I [01:47] thought we would talk through it because [01:49] I don't think people realize how close [01:51] they are to being in a prison when [01:53] they're in one of these movements. [01:54] >> Yeah, I am very excited to wade into [01:58] this conversation with you. I think it's [02:00] so important. And you know, I have been [02:04] a mental health counselor for over a [02:06] decade now. And while there are as many [02:10] ways to think about quote unquote mental [02:13] health, however we want to define that, [02:15] as there are humans on the planet, [02:19] we are very hypersocial beings and we [02:22] really do respond to and react to the [02:26] social setting that we are in. And so [02:29] whenever we are placed in these high [02:31] control authoritarian systems, whether [02:34] that be a prison, whether that be [02:36] military regimes, whether that be a [02:38] missions organization, [02:40] it is going to affect the way that we [02:43] see our own body and that we see other [02:46] bodies. [02:47] >> The point that really struck me, so I [02:49] suffer with this problem. My grandfather [02:52] was a leader in it. The group would have [02:55] imploded had it not been for my [02:56] grandfather. And my grandfather was the [02:59] cause of a lot of harm being spread. And [03:02] yet on the one hand, I see him as the [03:04] cult figure. But on the other hand, I [03:06] also see him as my grandfather. And he [03:09] was a loving, kind, gentle man. If you [03:11] knew him, people who knew him, they just [03:14] hear some of the things that I say and [03:15] they say, "John, he wasn't like that." [03:17] Not understanding that he was a cult [03:19] leader and he caused destruction. [03:21] In [clears throat] the in the example [03:23] where you're in a prison camp, P camp, [03:26] you are in the enemy's camp and every [03:28] person who is over you, the guards, the [03:31] leader of the prison, where whatever it [03:33] is, they are over you and they are to [03:35] you, they're evil because they're the [03:37] enemy, right? [clears throat] And it [03:39] really doesn't fit because some of the [03:40] people who are in a cult, all of the [03:42] people who are in a cult are good [03:43] people. But some of the people who are [03:45] in leadership positions who are [03:48] affecting harm on other people are doing [03:51] it not really understanding why they're [03:53] doing it. And I think that might explain [03:56] I'm trying to explain my grandfather [03:58] honestly and some of the other people [04:00] that I know cuz they're good friends but [04:01] they've done a lot of harm. [snorts] And [04:04] the point that you made whenever I [04:06] started thinking just back through it, [04:09] average people coming into this [04:10] experiment, good people can do bad [04:13] things. and it turns into a I don't know [04:15] it's like role assignment identity I [04:18] guess you would call it. They they take [04:21] on this identity and they feel empowered [04:23] by it and they start abusing it and a [04:25] good person can abuse it even though [04:28] deep inside they're good people. So [04:31] there's so much on my mind to talk [04:32] through but just reconciling how did [04:34] this happen to me? How did the family [04:37] the good family that I know how did they [04:39] get involved with this? How could they [04:41] have treated people like this? And all [04:43] of those questions are somewhat answered [04:46] by whenever you go deep into the study [04:48] of this experiment. Some of those [04:50] questions are answered. [04:51] >> We are very very complicated beings and [04:54] we're not all at the same [laughter] [04:56] time. [04:58] And psychologically it is really really [05:01] really terrifying for us to to think [05:05] that the way we think about the world is [05:07] quote unquote wrong. like it is it is [05:11] less taxing psychologically to think [05:14] that the entire world is wrong than we [05:17] are wrong. And so if we're put in these [05:20] positions and we're asked to do things [05:23] that create what what is called a moral [05:25] injury, when I do something that goes [05:28] against my morals, [05:30] it is much harder to really let that [05:33] injury metabolize than to create [05:37] cognitive dissonance and justify how the [05:41] ends justify the means. And once we [05:44] start doing that, it is very very quick [05:47] that we can justify [05:50] terrible means because we think that the [05:53] ends are are going to validate or be [05:56] worth it. And it takes so much effort [06:00] and I think communal safety for us to be [06:03] able to turn inward and be really honest [06:06] about those things that we've done or [06:08] we've said that have enacted harm. And I [06:12] think some of this is that split in [06:14] these um in this form of Christianity [06:18] that says this is the only right, [06:21] perfect, pure way. Then it splits the [06:24] world into binary. And and people are [06:26] they're good or they're bad. Decisions [06:28] are right or wrong. And we are actually [06:31] more like slabs of marble that have, you [06:35] know, various shades of good and bad. [06:37] And we can do good things and we can do [06:39] bad things. and and I don't really [06:41] believe that anybody is all one thing. [06:46] Um, so that's some some things that come [06:48] to mind for me. As you were talking, I [06:50] was also thinking and I know a bunch of [06:52] people are going to hate me for this [06:53] because there's all of this weirdness [06:55] about this movie, but my family just [06:57] watched the Wicked movies and the it's [07:00] interesting how similar it also comes [07:02] into this because I've used the cult [07:04] analogy of the Wizard of Oz and how how [07:07] similar cult leaders are to this. Well, [07:09] you never really stop and think about [07:11] the wicked witch. This was a person, [07:13] too. And people are molded by the things [07:16] that happen. And I won't ruin the story [07:17] for anybody that hasn't seen it, but [07:19] pretty pretty good movie and it does [07:21] fit. There are people who are just a set [07:24] of circumstances has changed their [07:26] lives. And I I look at the cults much [07:28] like this. People especially in the [07:30] divine healing cults, they uh a lot of [07:33] the people came because they they had [07:35] something wrong. They needed healed. [07:36] They were looking for healing. And maybe [07:39] they got it, maybe they didn't, but they [07:41] got assimilated into the group, which is [07:43] just it's really sad when you think of [07:45] the number of people. So, let's begin. [07:48] First, for anybody who didn't hear the [07:49] episode, we're talking about the [07:51] Stanford prison experiment. There are [07:53] probably people listening who have no [07:55] idea what this is. I can try to explain [07:57] it, but you're probably better than me, [07:59] so I'll let you take it and just explain [08:01] what this is to the listeners. [08:03] >> Yeah. So essentially it was a study to [08:08] explore what we're talking about. Are [08:11] people good or bad or do people get put [08:14] into situations that make them act good [08:17] or bad? And so it was a total randomized [08:21] study group that was meant to reenact a [08:26] prison. And so some of the volunteers [08:30] and the research participants were [08:32] assigned um like being prison wardens [08:35] essentially and some of them were [08:37] assigned being prisoners. [08:40] And horrifically within a very very [08:44] short amount of time [snorts] there was [08:47] psychological abuse, physical abuse, [08:50] torture, [08:52] deprivation, things that these these [08:56] people they had just plucked to be part [08:58] of this study were doing to other human [09:01] beings. And there's a lot of controversy [09:04] around um the reality that the study [09:08] didn't get stopped right away too, which [09:10] I think is its own thing of uh what does [09:14] that make us bystanders when we see evil [09:17] being done and we don't do something to [09:19] stop it. Um, but often, you know, the [09:23] the study is talking more about the [09:24] participants of the study in themselves [09:27] and it's often used as an example to say [09:32] we're kind of going to [09:35] assume those positions of uh of [09:39] perpetrator or victim largely because of [09:43] the social situations and conditions [09:46] that put us in those places. [09:49] And I I really like this idea that says [09:52] nothing is a problem until it's the only [09:54] solution cuz I think that we can even [09:56] become dogmatic about this and say okay [09:58] so the leaders are all bad the [10:01] constituents are all good and I think [10:03] about Victor Frankl who uh talked about [10:08] concentration camps and that he [10:10] experienced [10:12] nice Nazis that were running the camps [10:15] and he experienced really evil Jewish [10:18] people that were in the camps that it's [10:21] not all or nothing. It's not these [10:23] binary things and people are really [10:26] complicated. And so I I think sometimes, [10:29] you know, we can kind of create these [10:31] dogmas or these ideas, which I'm [10:33] hesitant to say. And by and large, if we [10:37] look at people that are given [10:40] disproportionate power and authority [10:42] over other people, that does something [10:46] to their ability to empathize and [10:49] humanize the people that they're [10:51] interacting with, which then will in [10:53] turn justify often various forms of harm [10:57] and abuse. And I'm reminded of the Mgram [11:00] experiment, which is one of the things [11:01] that I had to learn as I was going [11:04] through my training on what a cult is [11:06] and how it works. Mgram experiment where [11:08] somebody is taken into a an experiment [11:11] and there's another guy who's pretending [11:12] to scream and be in pain in the other [11:14] room. He's told to push a button that [11:17] sends all kinds of I can't remember how [11:19] many volts of electricity through his [11:21] body. And each time the question's [11:23] wrong, he turns it up. Well, they the [11:25] person who was probably a good person [11:28] put enough electricity on that switch [11:30] that it would have killed the other the [11:32] guy in the other room. [clears throat] [11:33] And the variation that I saw on it [11:35] before that was in Ghostbusters, which [11:37] is a much funnier version of that. But [11:40] needless to say, good people can do bad [11:42] things and like you said, bad people can [11:44] do good things. So, it makes it very [11:46] complicated. I as I was studying Jim [11:49] Jones, I had this black mentality, black [11:52] and white mentality of him. This is an [11:55] evil person. Everybody died. But you [11:57] read through the newspapers, he actually [11:59] received awards for many of the good [12:01] things that he did. Um he changed [12:04] communities. He worked with the poor. He [12:07] and impoverished. [clears throat] Lots [12:09] of good things that he did. But then all [12:11] of a sudden at the end of his life, he's [12:13] this infamous cult leader that everybody [12:15] is afraid of. I look at my family and [12:18] I'm I'm kind of I hate to say it, but I [12:21] look at them much in the same way. [12:22] They're really really good people, but [12:24] where they ended up is not a good place. [12:26] And I was in this place because of it. [12:29] So I'm torn between all of this. [12:32] [snorts] and the prison experiment. [12:34] That's something that really, as you [12:36] were talking through it, it really hit [12:38] me because the people who were in that [12:40] experiment as they're rising [12:42] [clears throat] through their ranks and [12:43] they're trying to they're trying to play [12:46] out their roles, they really don't think [12:49] about how it's affecting other people [12:51] because they just get so caught up in [12:53] the roles. In the same way of with the [12:55] cult, you get caught up in the religion [12:56] that you don't really think about what [12:58] it does to people who aren't of your [13:00] belief set and you become so I don't [13:03] know what the word is. You feel [13:04] empowered I guess whenever you step on [13:07] other people who aren't believing in the [13:09] same way as you much because of the [13:12] doctrine. The doctrine is telling you [13:14] that these people aren't as good as you. [13:16] You're elitist. They're not. So there's [13:18] so many similarities to unpack, but for [13:22] me it it was just as you were talking, [13:24] it was just answering the question of [13:26] how can this be? How can my family be [13:28] good and evil at the same time? [13:30] >> Yeah. [13:32] I [clears throat] [13:33] have been in private practice for over a [13:35] decade now and I primarily work with [13:39] adults healing from childhood sexual [13:41] abuse. And one of the hardest things for [13:46] many, many, many people that experienced [13:49] this type of abuse is that there was a [13:52] lot of goodness in the relationship that [13:55] caused them the most amount of harm. And [13:58] it it's easier if we can just say, "This [14:01] person is all bad." And so I can just [14:03] cut them off. I don't have to think [14:05] about them anymore. [14:07] And I think humans are really [14:10] complicated and they never cease to [14:12] disappoint me and amaze me and inspire [14:15] me and make me infuriated and and so I [14:21] think it's also really helpful. I I [14:24] really believe that villains and [14:27] perpetrators and cult leaders aren't [14:29] born, they are made. And so I look at [14:33] what are the conditions of possibility [14:35] that enable someone to do this in the [14:38] first place. What was their own [14:40] powerlessness that they didn't want to [14:43] feel? What was their own disgust that [14:45] they didn't want to feel? And I think so [14:49] many forms of harm and dehumanization [14:53] come from projections of the parts of [14:56] ourselves that we don't want to face, [14:59] that we don't want to have kindness for. [15:02] And so we find other people that we can [15:05] put those parts of ourselves onto and we [15:08] can project them. And I think we see [15:11] this in a lot of cases right now where [15:15] um different stereotypes or biases that [15:18] have been projected are really just [15:21] confessions. And I think that that's [15:23] often the case is that the more someone [15:26] is adamant about accusing someone else [15:28] or calling someone else out for [15:30] something, it's a lot of times the parts [15:33] of themselves that are are difficult to [15:35] to bear and to metabolize. [15:38] >> Absolutely. So after our conversation, I [15:41] was reading through some of the study [15:43] because I I had heard of the Stanford [15:45] prison experiment, but I'd not really [15:47] looked that much into it. And [15:49] [clears throat] there there are pictures [15:50] you can find if you search on Google [15:52] there. I think there might be some video [15:54] out there. But the the thing that hit [15:56] me, the prison guards were wearing [15:59] sunglasses, so you couldn't see into [16:01] their eyes, which immediately gives me [16:03] this Jim Jones reference, right? Because [16:04] you can look at him and he's much the [16:06] same way. But what that did, you take [16:10] the combination of the sunglasses and [16:12] the uniform, it created a separation of [16:15] of the humanity, right? They're a [16:17] different class of people. And much like [16:20] a cult, the people who are in the cult, [16:23] they may not be wearing sunglasses, but [16:25] when they look at the other Christians [16:27] in the world, if it's a Christian cult, [16:28] the other Christians in the world who [16:30] don't have the secret knowledge of the [16:32] special leader, well, there's a [16:35] difference there. Sometimes that [16:36] difference is a dress code. In our [16:39] Branomite cult that we had a dress code, [16:41] so we could see we look like this, they [16:43] look the other way, right? They they [16:45] look differently. And you look at the [16:48] way the prison guards separated [16:49] themselves and you begin to realize that [16:51] there's so many parallels in just the [16:53] attitude that they developed because [16:55] they were different. And it it gives you [16:58] this sense of I don't know uh you've [17:01] probably seen it where people are hiding [17:04] behind what they're saying on the um [17:07] comment forums. They're hiding behind [17:09] their keyboards is one of the phrases [17:10] that we use. There's a there's a [17:12] distance. There's a separation between [17:14] them. So they don't understand that [17:16] there's a person on the other end that [17:18] might get their feelings hurt. Well, in [17:20] the prison experiment, they are they're [17:22] separate just simply by even their dress [17:25] code. And so that that class I guess the [17:29] class system that separates them makes [17:31] them different. In the cults the the [17:33] people don't have to have uniforms or [17:36] clothes that separate them. Sometimes [17:38] even just phrases that they use, loaded [17:40] language that they use creates this I [17:43] don't know this group mentality where [17:45] they're different than the outside. And [17:47] so the similarities for me was just [17:50] simply looking at the pictures online. [17:52] You could tell that there is a [17:53] difference between this and the normal [17:55] world. [17:56] >> It makes me think of this really [17:58] powerful research one of my colleagues, [18:00] Liv Schultz, has done into what they [18:03] call the positive aspect of [18:05] evangelicalism. [18:07] And I've seen this in a lot of [18:10] experiences in WWAM and other specific [18:14] Christian cults where the uniform is [18:17] happiness. [18:19] And it is that idea of the shiny happy [18:21] people. And it becomes this cloak and [18:25] this facade that if you aren't happy, if [18:27] you aren't performing happiness, you're [18:30] not one of us. and and that in itself [18:33] becomes this othering and this [18:35] dehumanization of other people. We just [18:39] need to go save them so that they can [18:41] join us and essentially put on this [18:43] uniform of being happy. And I'm not [18:47] against people being happy. I like being [18:49] happy. And when it becomes compulsory or [18:53] it becomes this expectation when nobody [18:56] is really happy all of the time, we have [18:59] we get hangry, you know, we get [19:01] frustrated. We have these other ranges [19:03] of human emotions. And yet if we've [19:06] learned that our that something about us [19:09] should be or needs to perform [19:12] fundamentally different than other [19:13] people, it it actually separates the [19:17] human to human empathy where if I'm not [19:20] in touch with my anger, my rage, my fill [19:23] in the blank, then it's that much easier [19:26] for me to scapegoat you when I see you [19:29] feeling into your emotions. [19:32] And I really love uh Rick Steves. He [19:35] does a lot of um tourism throughout [19:38] Europe and raising awareness of [19:40] different cultures. And one of the [19:41] things he says is it's hard to hate up [19:43] close. And I think that that's so true. [19:46] And and I think we need to be close to [19:49] ourselves and to the parts of us that [19:51] maybe are hard to be close to in order [19:54] to be close to someone else and really [19:56] not hate them. So one of the questions I [19:58] had as I was going through that study [20:01] understanding what is the what is the [20:03] prison experiment? How did it work? One [20:05] of the [clears throat] things that also [20:06] hit me was that the outside information [20:09] was controlled. The group the reality of [20:11] the group was the reality that they saw [20:13] basically to limit outside experience in [20:17] the Brandom cult that I was raised in. [20:19] It was weirdly the same way. We weren't [20:22] allowed to watch television although [20:24] some of the some of the inner circle was [20:27] you know was allowed to the majority of [20:29] the people were not. So in a sense the [20:32] leadership and those who were in the [20:34] inner circle of Brandham [clears throat] [20:36] w had some access to outside information [20:38] but they limited it to the people. [20:40] You're not allowed to watch television. [20:42] You're not allowed to see what's going [20:43] on in the world. That cascaded down to [20:45] other things there. There are groups [20:48] that avoided newspapers and radio. And [20:50] so the the information that they were [20:52] given by the cult about how the outside [20:55] world worked is the information that [20:57] became the reality. [20:59] And then it suddenly clicked as as [21:02] you're using that analogy for youth with [21:04] a mission. Well, now you've got this [21:06] group of people who are in other [21:08] countries on these bases. Their access [21:11] to information is through the group [21:12] leaders. And I began to think, oh my [21:14] gosh, it's it's like an a prison [21:17] experiment for children. How bad is [21:19] this? How could this be? So I wanted to [21:21] ask you specifically about the control [21:23] of information. How did information come [21:25] into those bases in YWAM? [21:27] >> Yeah, it is very insular. [21:32] Uh well, there is some encouragement and [21:36] and [21:38] rhetoric in WWAM that says we're not a [21:40] church, so you should be part of the [21:43] church in the community. [21:45] What I experienced personally was that [21:48] there wasn't a lot of friendships or [21:51] relationships that were made outside of [21:54] the base. And as everyone has to go [21:58] through the disciplehip training school, [22:01] they have to read Lauren Cunningham's [22:03] books and many books from different [22:07] WWammers, you know, um so many of the [22:12] literature is from fellow YWWammers. [22:16] It's very rare that there's a sense of [22:19] here's someone we totally disagree with [22:21] or even we don't disagree with, but [22:23] they're not part of this brand of our [22:26] religion. Uh let's hear what they have [22:29] to say. Um and so it really does become [22:32] an echo chamber. And and I think some of [22:35] that is normal. You know, this kind of [22:38] benign example I think of is that I [22:41] spent 9 months living in South Africa [22:43] with HWAN. [snorts] And there's this [22:45] South African phrase people do when when [22:49] they drop something or some someone [22:51] tells them something that happened, they [22:52] go, "Ah, shame." And I hated that phrase [22:56] when I first moved to South Africa. It [22:57] was like nails on a chalkboard. And then [23:00] 6 7 months later, I just noticed myself [23:03] going, "Gh, shame." and it just came [23:05] [laughter] out of me without even [23:07] thinking about it. And then, you know, I [23:10] think we're always sponges to our [23:12] environment. [23:13] But when the environment is uh so much [23:17] specific language about [23:21] why I am and what that means and what [23:23] being called into this ministry means it [23:26] you really do develop more and more of a [23:29] sense of I can't even talk to my family [23:31] about it cuz they're not going to get [23:33] this language. they haven't lived this [23:35] life, they haven't had these [23:36] experiences. [23:37] These are the people that are really [23:39] going to get me. And and I think to some [23:41] extent that that's true. You know, [23:43] that's one of the things that's really [23:45] hard for people leaving these worlds is [23:48] that when you step out of it, just like [23:50] when people stepped out of the Stanford [23:52] prison experiment, they're like, "Wait, [23:54] it's only been 2 or 3 weeks." For most [23:57] people, nothing's really changed. And [24:00] for the people in that experiment, I [24:02] imagine their lives were changed [24:04] significantly by what they experienced [24:07] and what they witnessed. [24:09] >> Yeah. I can't even imagine it. It'd be [24:11] like stepping into a time warp. You [24:13] know, you everybody else has aged and [24:15] you're in this weird category of [24:17] something else. [clears throat] One of [24:20] the problems that I had whenever I first [24:22] met Dr. Steven Hassan and he was [24:24] explaining how cults work. One of the [24:26] problems I had was he was giving extreme [24:29] examples and he was comparing it to what [24:31] I had and I looked at what we believed [24:35] and I thought well it it's not that [24:37] extreme. He was talking about the [24:39] mooneyies and he was talking about the [24:41] sleep deprivation and all of the [24:42] different aspects of control that they [24:45] were using control techniques that they [24:47] were using on people. And I began to [24:49] think through that and he was explaining [24:52] how it all worked and how it affected [24:54] the mind. And it wasn't until probably a [24:57] year after that conversation I began to [24:59] realize that we had many of those things [25:01] but we had them in different ways. It [25:03] may not have been as extreme as the [25:05] mooneyies but we had some of those [25:07] things in different ways. We and a lot [25:09] of it was even self-inflicted which was [25:11] kind of weird. When I was looking at the [25:14] Stanford experiment the same kind of [25:15] thing happened. I I was looking at that [25:18] and I thought, you know, I'm trying to [25:19] make this comparison, cult or not, and [25:22] things like uh what's a good example? [25:25] The unpredictability of it, the [25:27] arbitrary punishments. They did have [25:29] sleep uh disruptions and rule changes, [25:32] etc., making people in this unstable [25:35] state of mind, purposefully so. And I I [25:39] was thinking, you know, there's that's a [25:41] little bit out there. I I can't even [25:42] relate that. But then I stopped and [25:45] thought in the cults we had this belief [25:48] that our version of the doctrine is [25:50] static and it was always that way. It [25:52] has always been that way. The leader was [25:54] consistent and we believed this thing [25:57] that was different from the world. But [26:00] my research has told me quite [26:01] differently. It changed over time [26:03] significantly and many times it changed [26:05] back and forth and back and forth and it [26:08] was doing the same things that was [26:10] happening in that experiment but not all [26:12] at once. It was gradually over time and [26:16] then the thought suddenly hit me that's [26:17] actually a little bit more insidious [26:19] because you it's so subtle that you [26:21] don't know the changes are happening. [26:23] Right. [26:24] >> Yeah. I it makes me think about some of [26:26] the language with YWAM is um this isn't [26:31] an organization, it's a movement. [26:34] And so what that does is create you know [26:39] and you know I believe in movement. This [26:42] is a big part of my whole thing. And I [26:46] think that movement for our bodies to [26:48] feel safe needs to be predictable and [26:51] needs to have some level of control that [26:54] we feel in control or we're at least [26:57] conscious of the movements that we're [26:58] making where the language in WWAM is [27:01] often like this is this movement and we [27:04] don't know where it's going to go. we [27:06] don't know where God's going to call us [27:08] and and kind of this frenzy of like God [27:10] could call us to shut down YWAM tomorrow [27:13] and it's like wait what that's really [27:15] scary this is my livelihood and and that [27:19] is was really ingrained that that um [27:23] keeps you in the sense of okay I need to [27:25] stay hypervigilant because I don't know [27:27] what's going to happen next and [27:31] you know I have not been to a base that [27:33] didn't really have some type of physical [27:38] deprivation. Whether that was you need [27:41] to wake up at 4:00 a.m. for your work [27:43] duty or whether that was we're not going [27:46] to have adequate food for you or whether [27:50] that was, you know, a million different [27:52] things. Um there's so many ways in which [27:55] that deprivation on a nervous system [27:58] level reads as I'm not okay because our [28:02] our bodies know what they need. And when [28:04] they're not getting those things, that's [28:06] going to put us in a state of stress and [28:09] hypervigilance. [28:11] >> Have you ever wondered how the [28:13] Pentecostal movement started or how the [28:15] progression of modern Pentecostalism [28:18] transition through the latter reign, [28:20] charismatic and other fringe movements [28:22] into the new apostolic reformation? You [28:25] can learn this and more on William Brham [28:27] Historical Research's website, [28:30] william-braham.org. [28:32] On the books page of the website, you [28:34] can find the compiled research of John [28:36] Collins, Charles Paisley, Steven [28:39] McGomery, John McKinnon, and others with [28:42] links to the paper, audio, and digital [28:44] versions of each book. You can also find [28:47] resources and documentation on various [28:50] people and topics related to those [28:52] movements. If you want to contribute to [28:54] the cause, you can support the podcast [28:56] by clicking the contribute button at the [28:59] top. And as always, be sure to like and [29:01] subscribe to the audio or video version [29:04] that you're listening to or watching. On [29:06] behalf of William Brandham Historical [29:08] Research, we want to thank you for your [29:10] support. You mentioned the fact that [29:12] they might close the base. And [29:15] instantly, I'm thinking all of the [29:17] rhetoric that we had growing up, I would [29:19] hear sermons, the government's going to [29:21] come and they're going to close this [29:23] church one day. And the interesting [29:25] thing is the church kind of closed [29:27] itself because the I started publishing [29:30] the tax records. So in a weird way there [29:32] there is a connection to the government. [29:34] But that rhetoric [clears throat] of [29:36] there's an urgency, something's going to [29:39] happen and you're not safe. I think [29:41] that's really the key th those [29:43] combinations of things. [snorts] When [29:46] you feel that you're not safe, but [29:48] you're relying on the leadership for [29:49] your safety, that turns into a uh [29:53] learned helplessness basically. And when [29:56] I compare it to to the prison [29:58] experiment, every attempt that they made [30:01] was failing. And eventually they just [30:02] kind of gave up and they gave in. And I [30:06] look at some of the more stubborn people [30:07] that I grew up with who I I had friends [30:11] who weren't really cult people. They [30:13] didn't like all the doctrines. They [30:15] didn't really adhere to anything. I was [30:18] a good little church boy. I really was. [30:20] But some [clears throat] of my friends [30:21] weren't. Yet later in life, they're the [30:24] ones who burrowed in deeper. And I'm the [30:26] one who left, which is odd when you [30:28] think about it. I'm the one who I I was [30:30] the one who was just so dedicated. And [30:33] then I learned that all of this is false [30:34] and I left. But I also shared that [30:38] learned helplessness. I I relied on the [30:41] cult for everything. Everything that I [30:42] believed, I relied on them. and the [30:44] outside world was out to get me. So, in [30:47] many ways, I I had this prison that was [30:50] in my own making, in my own mind, [30:53] instead of what they had, which was [30:54] physical. [30:55] >> Totally. I think I've shared this [30:57] before, but what's coming to mind is [31:01] when I was really not doing well, I had [31:04] broken into shingles. I had boils all [31:06] over my legs. My immune system was not [31:09] working. I was just not in a good space [31:14] and I was thinking I needed some time to [31:17] rest or figure something out. Um, [31:22] one of the the base leaders wives told [31:24] me, "Oh, I had a dream that you were [31:26] leading our preschool." [31:28] And so then I started leading the [31:31] preschool. And it was nothing that I [31:33] wanted to do or even felt skilled or [31:36] qualified to do. uh I needed rest, but [31:40] it was this sense of well, if God gave [31:42] you this dream, then that must be true. [31:45] And it really was a sense of [31:49] deep listening to myself, but not at the [31:52] same time. Like I was always very strong [31:55] in my convictions, but then when someone [31:58] who was a spiritual authority would say, [32:00] "No, this is what I think God wants you [32:02] to do." It was nearly impossible for me [32:06] to ever think otherwise. [32:08] >> Almost all of these type of experiments [32:10] have some sort of humiliation ritual, [32:13] which is interesting to me. It's like [32:15] the psychologists are in a psychology of [32:18] how you do bad things to people and put [32:20] them into bad experiments. And one of [32:22] them is going to be we're going to hum [32:24] humiliate the people or have other [32:26] people humiliate other people. And [32:29] [clears throat] it it's weird and scary [32:31] that the mind will go there. But in that [32:36] experiment, you really learn that people [32:39] can betray their own instincts to be [32:42] kind to other people when given the [32:44] right set of circumstances. [32:46] >> [snorts] [32:46] >> That is another part of this that really [32:49] helps me feel a little bit better about [32:51] family because I know examples where [32:54] there were people who were just [32:56] humiliated beyond being able to rise [32:59] back up over some of the things that [33:01] were said and did. I remember one lady [33:04] humiliated in front of the entire crowd [33:07] of people at at the Brandom Tabernacle [33:09] by my grandfather. as she's crying and [33:11] walking out of the building, everybody's [33:14] watching her with the scorn that is [33:16] coming from behind the pull pit. That's [33:18] one of the memories that stuck in my [33:20] head that is just so painful to try to [33:22] wrestle with that a kind, gentle man [33:25] would do this to a person. But [33:27] [clears throat] you look at these [33:28] experiments and these are good people in [33:30] the experiments as well. They're put [33:32] into a situation that leads them down [33:35] that pathway where they can humiliate [33:37] other people. [snorts] And I began to [33:40] think through that and suddenly it hit [33:42] me that even on a smaller scale, people [33:46] who are the rank and file members who [33:48] aren't in the leadership, whenever [33:50] they're talking to somebody like I I've [33:52] been in conversations in the grocery [33:54] store and they meet somebody who's [33:55] another Christian who just doesn't know [33:57] that the central figure exists and they [34:00] feel like they can oppress impress upon [34:02] them scorn for things that they believe [34:04] differently. [snorts] And it it suddenly [34:06] hit me that that exists to some [34:08] miniature level on almost all people [34:11] that I know of in the cult, whether they [34:13] know they're doing it or not. And then I [34:16] began to think, how does [34:17] psychologically, how does that happen? [34:19] How does a person get to the point where [34:21] they have no problem insulting somebody [34:23] else when they're talking to them? What [34:26] does from a psych psychological [34:28] standpoint, what would you say that [34:29] would cause that? Something I often say [34:32] is we are feeling beings who think, not [34:36] thinking beings who feel. And this is [34:39] one of the reasons why I think it's so [34:40] important to understand our nervous [34:43] system and how it affects how we think. [34:47] And so a lot of this comes out of the [34:48] work of Steven Porges and Poly Vego [34:52] theory. And the idea is that our vagus [34:55] nerve uh which is called vagus means [34:58] wandering because of how much real [35:01] estate it takes up in the body. It's a [35:03] cranial nerve that runs through our [35:06] spinal cord and has branches in our [35:08] throat, our chest, our belly and pelvis. [35:11] And it is responsible for enabling a [35:14] state of rest. And part of Steven's [35:18] Pores's theory is that we have multiple [35:21] branches of our vagus nerve that do [35:24] different things and communicate [35:26] different things. And his idea is that [35:29] we need to be in what's called a [35:31] vententral veagal state, otherwise known [35:34] as parasympathetic [35:36] nervous system or rest and digest. And [35:39] that is when we are able to feel safe [35:42] enough to have a humanto human [35:46] connection, to have voice modulation, [35:50] to read people's faces, to really have [35:53] these social engagements online. [35:57] And the idea is that if we are not safe, [36:00] we will move into our fight, our flight, [36:03] our freeze or appease nervous systems. [36:07] And those are survival states. And so if [36:10] my survival is dependent on me being on [36:13] that in those states, I really don't [36:16] have a lot of capacity for empathy, for [36:19] attunement, for kindness, for care, for [36:21] another person. It really is this [36:24] scrappy like I just need to survive [36:28] feeling in our nervous system. [36:30] And if we live in a context like you [36:33] just described where we see public [36:35] humiliation, [36:37] whether it is conscious or not, our [36:39] nervous system is going, I'm not safe. [36:43] This is not a safe place to be. And so [36:45] it's going to be easier for me to [36:48] acquies and fawn to the power structures [36:53] than to really come into my safe nervous [36:57] system. So, one of the questions that I [36:59] had as I was thinking through this [37:00] experiment is probably going to put you [37:02] on the spot and I'll I'll try to be very [37:05] careful how I do this. So, as I'm [37:08] looking at this experiment and you're [37:09] taking good people, you're putting them [37:11] over other people who are equals there. [37:14] There is no difference really between [37:16] the people. They're just given their [37:18] authority and suddenly they abuse the [37:20] authority. That happens widespread in a [37:24] cult. That's just simply how a cult [37:26] framework works. [37:28] Now take the dynamics of adults who are [37:31] empowered like this over children who [37:34] already there was already a hierarchy [37:36] because they're an adult and the others [37:38] are children. So there's a hier [37:39] hierarchy that already exists and in [37:42] many cases that hierarchy becomes [37:45] exponential whenever you add the cult [37:47] authority. In the worst extreme cases, [37:50] we have some documented on the website, [37:53] there were public beatings, uh, [37:55] spankings of children, very, very harsh [37:58] spankings. Everybody would join into to [38:00] the community room and watch the [38:02] children being spanked for whatever was [38:04] the sin that they had committed. [38:07] That's an example of the extreme [38:09] authorities. And I'm not saying that [38:11] Youth with a Mission has anything like [38:12] this. However, [38:15] in those examples, the cult framed the [38:19] punishment as though what we're doing is [38:22] out of love. We're doing this because we [38:24] love you. Public correction is because [38:27] of love. Forced reconciliation because [38:30] of love. There's this leadership [38:32] mediated love that happens and it's [38:35] never really love. It's something that's [38:37] horrific. [38:38] Youth with a mission on the other hand [38:41] has the same internal structure. [38:45] So it's very difficult for me to think [38:47] that it won't eventually happen which I [38:50] don't know. I'm not going to say that it [38:51] is or it isn't. But to a limited extent [38:55] there must be something like this that [38:57] exists just simply because of the nature [38:59] of the structure of the organization. So [39:02] I wanted to ask you what are your [39:03] thoughts on this as it relates to your [39:05] experience in youth with a mission? I [39:07] have a few thoughts. One [39:10] is that, you know, pretty much every [39:13] school in WWAM [39:16] has an outreach phase [39:18] and pretty much every outreach ends in a [39:21] debrief. And one of the common common [39:25] things I saw in these debriefs were was [39:28] this sense of um sort of like a [39:32] compliment sandwich where everyone would [39:36] go around to one person. They would take [39:38] turns and you would say one thing that [39:40] was like you wanted to affirm and then [39:42] you would call out something basically [39:45] that had pissed you off about that [39:47] person in the last 2 3 months and then [39:49] you would give them another compliment. [39:52] Wow, that's awful. [laughter] [39:55] >> It really is awful. And we had all just [39:58] had months of being in really intense [40:02] experiences where not our best sides [40:04] were coming out. And this became a [40:07] public humiliation of everyone. And this [40:10] was leaders and uh people that were on [40:12] the team as well. Like nobody was immune [40:15] from this. And this didn't just happen [40:18] at the end of outreach, but that was the [40:20] most common time I would see it. We [40:24] would also have these like father heart [40:27] of god or um these really like emotional [40:31] broken and beautiful or something like [40:33] that. I was broken in something weeks. [40:36] And it became these rituals of self [40:38] humumiliation that that you were [40:40] supposed to confess the deepest, [40:43] darkest, most horrific parts of [40:46] yourself. And of course, there were [40:48] people that wouldn't participate, but [40:50] for those of us who really wanted to be [40:52] good in this system, we're like, "Okay, [40:54] well, I guess this is what this means." [40:57] And people would stand up and confess [40:59] things that they hadn't even talked to [41:01] their spouse about in front of hundreds [41:03] of people. [41:05] And so there was this sense of just [41:07] again this fear and panic around what am [41:12] I going what is God going to ask me to [41:14] tell people or what is God going to [41:17] impress on someone else to tell me? You [41:20] know, whenever I'm hearing something [41:21] that's incredibly bad, the way my mind [41:23] works is I usually go to think of [41:25] something that's comedy, and usually [41:27] it's Bugs Bunny. It takes me to my happy [41:30] place. But as you were talking, I was [41:32] thinking of how awful this would be to [41:33] be in that experience. And I I began [41:36] thinking of Seinfeld's Festivus episode [41:38] where they have the airing of grievances [41:40] and how awkward that was for George [41:43] whenever that happened. I don't know if [41:44] you have seen Seinfeld, but [41:46] [clears throat] it's it's really sad [41:47] when you think about it. Seinfeld was [41:49] augmenting a situation that exists in [41:52] many cases in the cold where somebody is [41:55] thrown off balance. [snorts] And I don't [41:58] know if people realize how powerful this [42:00] is. If you can get somebody into that [42:03] awkward position where their mind is [42:04] thrown off balance, you can take control [42:07] of the conversation. And in a cult [42:10] scenario to somebody who is looking at [42:12] leadership who has thrown them off [42:14] balance, they the leader can actually [42:17] take control of what they believe, what [42:20] they think, how they view the situation. [42:23] Literally, you can hijack a mind by [42:24] throwing somebody off balance. Now, in a [42:27] group setting with a bunch of children [42:29] and young adults, throw them off balance [42:32] by thinking about the anxiety of having [42:35] to confess whatever it is you're going [42:37] to confess while the other person is [42:39] doing it. That is the throwing off [42:41] balance. And suddenly you are put into [42:44] this awkward position where I can't even [42:47] imagine what what were what were they [42:50] thinking? Why were they doing this? This [42:52] is awful. [42:53] I can't say this is why they were doing [42:56] it, but really what it makes me think of [42:59] is uh the little bit I know of [43:01] Scientology and that part of the [43:04] indoctrination is confessing and and how [43:08] that actually gets used as blackmail [43:12] that I have seen these experiences where [43:15] it's like these people now know this [43:18] deepest darkest thing about me so I need [43:21] to stay in allegiance with them because [43:24] if I break from this then I don't want [43:28] what I've shared to find its way out of [43:30] here. And so in some ways the [43:33] insularness of it is its own pseudo [43:37] safety where as hard and as scary and as [43:40] awful as it is to share those things I [43:42] think there's some sense of like but [43:44] those things are safe here as long as I [43:48] don't become one of the scapegoats that [43:50] then those things get aired out into the [43:53] public. [43:54] >> And I know we're going to have [43:54] commenters who say but the Bible says [43:56] confess your sins one to another. It's [43:59] quite different when you think about [44:01] what you're describing that there's a [44:03] coercive element to this, right? [44:05] Especially picture the the people [44:07] sitting in the room. Somebody has [44:09] confessed and now it's your turn. And [44:11] there's awkward silence. What do you do [44:13] with this? You're now you're on edge, [44:15] right? You're waiting. The pressure is [44:17] on. What are you going to say? Do I tell [44:19] all? And again, my my mind goes to [44:22] comedy. There's this Ray Stevens song [44:24] about the squirrel that went berserk in [44:26] the church. If you haven't heard it, you [44:28] need to listen to it. But it it gets all [44:30] the way down to the they called in the [44:34] song it sister Bertha better than you [44:36] and she began to confess to sins that [44:38] would make a sailor blessed with shame [44:40] is what it talked about and it's a crazy [44:43] funny song but it relates to this [44:44] because once you start that everybody [44:48] has to do it you get into this group [44:50] think you get into this group mindset [44:52] and everybody's telling things that they [44:54] wouldn't normally tell the other problem [44:56] that I have and we've wandered far from [44:58] the [laughter] from the prison [45:00] experiment. But the other problem I have [45:02] with this, because I have I've actually [45:04] seen to a limited extent what you're [45:06] describing in other situations, [45:09] once [snorts] you do it, once that [45:11] awkwardness is on you and you say [45:12] something, now everybody knows it and [45:15] they hold it over your head and now [45:17] you've got this added weight of the [45:19] thing that's held over your head that [45:20] you may not have said. [snorts] [45:23] other examples and I won't go into [45:25] details because I don't want to out the [45:27] person but there are people who haven't [45:29] yet worked through the thing that they [45:31] are confessing the thing that is burning [45:33] inside of them the most they've not yet [45:36] conquered it but they're they're put on [45:39] the spot what do I say what I oh this is [45:41] the thing that's plaguing me day and [45:43] night I'm going to say this and now [45:44] everybody knows and you've not even yet [45:46] conquered it so whenever they confess it [45:50] and in the confession It's an admission [45:53] that not only you have had a sin, it's [45:55] now in the past, you've conquered it. [45:58] Well, if they haven't conquered it and [45:59] they go back into it, now they're [46:00] backsliden and so they're branded. So [46:03] now you have the scarlet letter of being [46:05] black backsliden in the group, all of [46:09] this because it's a it's a coerced [46:11] confession. It's not a normal [46:12] confession. [46:14] >> Totally. And you know, it was a little [46:17] different when we were on our outreach [46:19] and there was like nine of us. But when [46:22] this happened on bases in schools, [46:26] I don't recall ever seeing the base [46:29] leaders or the school leaders [46:31] confessing. Those who had the most power [46:34] were usually calm as a cucumber and were [46:37] saying, "What does God want you to [46:39] confess?" And maybe it would be like [46:41] young staffers, but mostly it was people [46:43] that were there for their disciplehip [46:46] training school that were there for 3 [46:47] months, 5 months, and had not even [46:50] developed longterm relationships with [46:53] people. And so it created this pseudo [46:56] intimacy where it was like, well, now [46:58] you know this thing that nobody else [47:00] knows about me, so I guess I have to [47:02] stay here forever. [47:04] And then you start to notice that the [47:06] higher up you get in the organization, [47:08] the less you're actually really supposed [47:10] to talk about those things that everyone [47:13] in the lower status is talking about, [47:17] >> right? I just I can't even imagine. I've [47:19] had people [clears throat] tell me in [47:21] the support groups that they were very [47:23] close to the leader, the pastor, [47:25] whatever it was. And a pastor [47:27] [clears throat] is somebody that you [47:29] normally would confess to. You would [47:30] say, "Hey, will you help me pray through [47:32] this? I have this sin in my life. I [47:34] can't I can't beat it. Whatever it is, [47:36] the pastor prays with you. And then [47:39] whenever you question the authority and [47:41] you start to leave, the pastor wants to [47:43] out you for those sins. So they're not [47:45] confidential as people think. And I'm [47:47] looking [laughter] I'm looking at what [47:49] you just said and I'm thinking, "Oh my [47:50] gosh, now the leader has ammunition. Not [47:54] only do they have the power to hijack [47:56] your mind in in the group setting, now [47:59] if you ever try to leave, I know that [48:01] thing that you did. It would be a shame. [48:03] My grandfather told me this. It would be [48:05] a shame if people were to find out [48:06] everything that you've told me. I can't [48:08] remember his exact words, but that's how [48:10] the leaders work in this type of [48:12] environment and you're going to open [48:14] that door. I I say close that door. [48:17] [laughter] [48:17] >> Mhm. Totally. And that makes me think, [48:20] you know, even when it's not these [48:22] public displays, in most schools in [48:25] YWAM, you have a one-on-one leader and [48:28] you usually have a journal that is part [48:31] of YWAM's curriculum that goes week to [48:34] week of whatever you're going to be [48:35] going through that has very um detailed [48:40] questions about like what is the sin God [48:43] wants you to confess this week? What is [48:45] the fill in the blank? And you give that [48:49] journal to your one-on-one every week to [48:52] read. [laughter] [48:54] And so the deepest, most emotional [48:57] things that you're going through have a [49:00] have a direct connection to this person [49:02] that is your superior essentially in [49:06] this organization. [49:08] Um, and then of course, you know, they [49:11] need to maybe debrief that with their [49:13] staff. And so nothing that you share is [49:16] actually really in confidentiality much [49:18] less your own safety. [49:21] >> And interestingly we have brought it [49:23] full circle back to the prison because [49:25] [clears throat] when you do this now you [49:28] have given the leadership leverage over [49:30] you and so you have solidified the walls [49:33] of the prison that you're in because say [49:35] you have I'm going to use a basic [49:37] example. Say you have the sin of pride [49:39] and you talk about it you confess it to [49:41] the group. Now, anytime you try to do [49:44] something that isn't what the leader [49:46] wants, remember that sin of pride, my [49:48] sister, my brother, you need to stay [49:50] within your boundaries and not let that [49:54] sin of pride take you out of this. They [49:56] have leverage over you. And so now you [49:58] have created your own prison walls. And [50:00] it takes us back into the Stanford [50:02] experiment. [laughter] [50:04] >> Yes. Yep. Exactly. [50:08] >> Yeah. Um it also this is a a different [50:11] but also feels important to mention [50:14] because it I think it's in the same vein [50:17] that we would also have these things [50:20] called giving nights and they were these [50:22] immensely emotional moving nights where [50:27] you'd have a lot of worship first and [50:29] you'd get into these altered states and [50:32] then literally it was hours of what does [50:36] God want you to give to someone else and [50:39] and person after person would come up to [50:41] the microphone and say, "God wants me to [50:44] give you my only laptop. God wants me to [50:47] give you the rest of the money for your [50:49] outreach, God." And it was always like [50:51] it was almost like bigger and better. [50:53] Like who could come up with the bigger, [50:55] better, or more sacrificial thing? And [50:58] and I do think that, you know, I myself [51:00] had these compulsions that I was like, [51:02] "What's the one thing I don't want God [51:04] to ask me to give? Oh my gosh, that must [51:06] be the thing God's asking me to give. [51:09] And I would give it away. And um and so [51:14] that also felt like it was part of this [51:16] frenzy, like I can never have some sense [51:20] of consistency or control over who I am, [51:25] the things that I move through, cuz I [51:27] never know what God's going to ask me to [51:29] say or give away. And it creates this [51:33] really really precarious environment [51:35] that uh is this abdication of agency and [51:40] autonomy so that you become uh a [51:43] victimized and a victimr in this world. [51:46] >> So you've actually got me angry. I don't [51:48] know if you can tell it. I smile when [51:49] I'm angry. You've actually got me angry [51:52] that this is happening to young adults [51:54] and children. I [snorts] think we should [51:56] probably take a moment and just say um [52:00] give people examples of what is a [52:01] healthy alternative to this and what [52:03] does it look like when it's forced [52:06] forced confession, coerced confession. [52:08] How can you how can you identify that? [52:11] How can you identify that you're being [52:13] manipulated through your confession? I [52:16] come back to this quote from Angela Chen [52:18] that I really love often that says, "If [52:21] someone cannot say no, any yes that's [52:24] given is meaningless." [52:27] And in these systems that we've talked [52:29] about that are systems of obedience, [52:32] consent is revoked because you can't [52:35] consent in a system of obedience. [52:38] And so just asking, is this a place that [52:41] I'm free to not confess if I don't want [52:45] to or I don't feel ready to? And if it's [52:48] not, that's a pretty big red flag. Uh [52:52] because I believe love doesn't push, it [52:56] doesn't force, it doesn't have an [52:57] agenda. I believe love is really [53:00] merciful and expansive and spaciousness. [53:04] And I think that Jesus really [53:07] demonstrated his own radical agency and [53:11] honoring the agency of others. And so I [53:15] think that that can become a lipnness [53:17] test of do I have ability to practice my [53:20] agency? Can I say no without being [53:23] punished, without being left, without [53:26] being abandoned? [53:28] Um, [53:30] and where are the places that I feel [53:32] like I want to share [53:34] out of an intimacy and a safety that's [53:37] already there, not out of an attempt to [53:40] get an intimacy or a safety that I don't [53:43] already feel. Part of the reason it [53:46] angers me, there's a moment in my life [53:48] that I'm remembering where I had I used [53:51] to go off to meetings away from my [53:54] parents because my parents were not that [53:57] healthy when I was growing up. And so I [53:59] would travel to these meetings. I I went [54:01] to this one meeting that had a forced [54:02] altar call and something just didn't [54:05] feel right. But it was a forced altar [54:08] call. We I was watching the youth go up [54:11] and the way it worked, they would go up [54:12] and they would whisper whatever it was [54:14] in the pastor's ear and then the pastor [54:15] would pray, they would kneel [54:18] and from, you know, from the [54:20] congregation looking at it, it looked [54:22] like a healthy thing. It looked like a [54:23] thing of God, but something just didn't [54:26] feel right. I'm I'm one of the people [54:28] that didn't go up because I had the [54:29] feeling in my gut, something is not [54:31] right here. And so, I stayed I stayed [54:33] back and I just prayed silent to [54:35] silently to myself. Right? Well, I began [54:38] to realize over time after leaving the [54:41] cult, and it took me until after [54:43] rewiring my head whenever I had left, [54:47] whenever you're in this type of [54:48] situation where confession is expected [54:51] instead of welcomed, [54:53] that's wrong. That's not how you treat [54:55] people. That that is the wrong way to do [54:57] it, right? So, you can identify if [55:00] you're in a bad situation like I was, my [55:02] gut was feeling wrong because it was [55:04] expected. It was a forced alter call. [55:07] >> [clears throat] [55:08] >> More than that, refusal in those [55:10] scenarios usually has some sort of a [55:13] either social or spiritual consequence. [55:16] I don't think it was a I don't think [55:18] they were preaching fire and brimstone [55:20] if you didn't go up. But if you didn't [55:22] go up, you were that guy who was sitting [55:24] there when all the rest of us were up [55:26] there. I was that guy, right? So, I know [55:29] how socially awkward this feels. I I was [55:32] socially awkward, which isn't that far [55:34] out of my element anyway, but [laughter] [55:36] but the leaders had access to the [55:39] spiritual lives and the inner secrets of [55:42] every single person who went up there. [55:44] And after I realized after leaving the [55:47] cult and deprogramming all of the stuff [55:49] out of my head, after I realized what [55:51] they're doing, I got so angry then and [55:54] you just reignited that anger [laughter] [55:56] in me right now. So, our [snorts] [55:58] podcast has gone all kinds of different [56:00] directions and my face is red if you're [56:02] listening and can't see me. But I'm that [56:04] angry. You can't do this to people. You [56:06] can't do this to children. So, I I think [56:09] maybe we should end on a note on a happy [56:12] note because I'm I'm red in the face. [56:15] [snorts] There are people who go through [56:17] this who can conquer it and get past it [56:20] and not have any sort of baggage from [56:24] being that one who is socially awkward. [56:26] I was that person, right? I'm I'm over [56:28] it. I I'm a little angry when I see it [56:31] happening to other people. What advice [56:33] would you give to people like me who did [56:35] experience something like this? [56:37] >> It makes me think about um when my [56:41] husband and I were considering leaving a [56:43] a Christian organization [56:46] and we really were afraid because we [56:49] said, "Well, we don't want to lose our [56:50] community." And then we came to a [56:53] different discussion where we said if we [56:55] lose our community because we don't go [56:57] to this certain building one day a week, [57:00] is that actual community or is that the [57:02] type of community we want? [57:05] And I don't mean to minimize how [57:09] incredibly connected we can feel to [57:12] these communities. [57:14] [snorts] And I will say that as someone [57:17] who has spent years on the other side, I [57:21] have developed relationships that I know [57:24] I can be messy, I can be disappointing, [57:27] I can be frustrating, I can be angry, [57:30] and there's still space. And and if you [57:34] don't feel that where you currently are, [57:37] you do have things to lose for sure in [57:39] leaving. I don't want to minimize that. [57:41] And you have that much more to allow [57:45] yourself to experience on the other side [57:48] of that. I I think about when Jesus [57:50] said, "What good is it for someone to [57:54] gain the world and lose their soul?" And [57:57] if you're in a situation where your soul [57:59] feels suffocated and terrified and [58:02] hindered because of how you're having to [58:04] conform, [58:05] there's so much more expansiveness that [58:08] I think we're invited into in how we [58:11] move and breathe and have our being. [58:14] >> Well, thank you. Now I feel much better [58:15] and my face is less red. So, [laughter] [58:18] thank you for doing this with me. [58:20] >> Absolutely. Thank you. [58:23] Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you [58:25] want more information, you can check us [58:26] out on the web. You can find us at [58:27] william-brandom.org [58:29] and indwellmovement.com. [58:31] For more about the dark side of the New [58:33] Apostolic Reformation, you can read [58:34] Weaponized Religion: From Christian [58:36] Identity to the N. Available on Amazon, [58:40] Kindle, and Audible. [58:45] [music] [58:55] >> [music] [59:01] [music] [59:03] >> Heat. Heat. [59:09] [music] [59:16] >> [music] [59:23] [music] [59:24] >> Heat. [59:27] Heat. [59:30] [music] [59:38] >> [music]  📄 **Full text:** ![[Full Document Contents/Articles/YWAM vs. Stanford Prison Experiment Jenny McGrath 566|YWAM vs. Stanford Prison Experiment | Jenny McGrath | 566, YouTube]] ## Highlights - the place that I went to." And that was my life coming out of a cult for the first few years. I've obviously got over that. And then when you mentioned the Stanford prison experiment, I got to thinking about all of the similarities between that and the cult in a different way, which it's interesting. So, I thought we would talk through it because I don't think people realize how close they are to being in a prison when they're in one of these movements. >> Yeah, I am very excited to wade into this conversation with you. I think it's ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvj5m2gatzzgae6p028ama)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - leader of the prison, where whatever it is, they are over you and they are to you, they're evil because they're the enemy, right? [clears throat] And it really doesn't fit because some of the people who are in a cult, all of the people who are in a cult are good people. But some of the people who are in leadership positions who are affecting harm on other people are doing it not really understanding why they're doing it. And I think that might explain I'm trying to explain my grandfather honestly and some of the other people ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvj5neszsnc4hc1tky5fb4)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - [snorts] and the prison experiment. That's something that really, as you were talking through it, it really hit me because the people who were in that experiment as they're rising [clears throat] through their ranks and they're trying to they're trying to play out their roles, they really don't think about how it's affecting other people because they just get so caught up in the roles. In the same way of with the cult, you get caught up in the religion that you don't really think about what it does to people who aren't of your ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvj5t4s6xv3w1mh252cv4e)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - imagine their lives were changed significantly by what they experienced and what they witnessed. >> Yeah. I can't even imagine it. It'd be like stepping into a time warp. You know, you everybody else has aged and you're in this weird category of something else. [clears throat] One of the problems that I had whenever I first met Dr. Steven Hassan and he was explaining how cults work. One of the problems I had was he was giving extreme examples and he was comparing it to what ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvj5z1x73as704tqy5ex5d)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - etc., making people in this unstable state of mind, purposefully so. And I I was thinking, you know, there's that's a little bit out there. I I can't even relate that. But then I stopped and thought in the cults we had this belief that our version of the doctrine is static and it was always that way. It has always been that way. The leader was consistent and we believed this thing that was different from the world. But ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvj64ssxzd84xgmjwys9g3)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - the one who was just so dedicated. And then I learned that all of this is false and I left. But I also shared that learned helplessness. I I relied on the cult for everything. Everything that I believed, I relied on them. and the outside world was out to get me. So, in many ways, I I had this prison that was in my own making, in my own mind, instead of what they had, which was physical. >> Totally. I think I've shared this before, but what's coming to mind is ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvj6bgb4vmq0yp4ym3e4ev)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - the experiments as well. They're put into a situation that leads them down that pathway where they can humiliate other people. [snorts] And I began to think through that and suddenly it hit me that even on a smaller scale, people who are the rank and file members who aren't in the leadership, whenever they're talking to somebody like I I've been in conversations in the grocery store and they meet somebody who's another Christian who just doesn't know that the central figure exists and they ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvj6kj4c5tnh7r60hdcpkp)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - feel like they can oppress impress upon them scorn for things that they believe differently. [snorts] And it it suddenly hit me that that exists to some miniature level on almost all people that I know of in the cult, whether they know they're doing it or not. And then I began to think, how does psychologically, how does that happen? How does a person get to the point where they have no problem insulting somebody else when they're talking to them? What does from a psych psychological standpoint, what would you say that would cause that? Something I often say ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvj6r7h48sttbtcgqr9e32)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - experiment is probably going to put you on the spot and I'll I'll try to be very careful how I do this. So, as I'm looking at this experiment and you're taking good people, you're putting them over other people who are equals there. There is no difference really between the people. They're just given their authority and suddenly they abuse the authority. That happens widespread in a cult. That's just simply how a cult framework works. Now take the dynamics of adults who are ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvj72gcyehzhjwmp0c2jyv)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - is. If you can get somebody into that awkward position where their mind is thrown off balance, you can take control of the conversation. And in a cult scenario to somebody who is looking at leadership who has thrown them off balance, they the leader can actually take control of what they believe, what they think, how they view the situation. Literally, you can hijack a mind by throwing somebody off balance. Now, in a group setting with a bunch of children and young adults, throw them off balance ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01knwvj7crwckhfnm745rb3zz3)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted