eReaders, Kindle, Kobo, and Workflows With Jason Snell

eReaders, Kindle, Kobo, and Workflows With Jason Snell ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/U_KoHdj43Hs/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [eReaders, Kindle, Kobo, and Workflows With Jason Snell](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_KoHdj43Hs) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: #ebooks #reading #digital-publishing #libraries #workflow > author: Mac Power Users > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_KoHdj43Hs > date created: 2024-12-17 10:00 > > # 🏷️ Title: eReaders, Kindle, Kobo, and Workflows with Jason Snell >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Research Kobo Libra Color vs Kindle Paperwhite for physical page buttons — comparison shopping #ebooks - [H2] Set up library card with Libby app for free ebook access — library system integration #libraries - [H3] Evaluate Crosspoint firmware for XTE Inc X4 e-reader — hardware modification #workflow ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [[#📝 Summary]] - [[#📖 Main Content]] - [[#🗒️ Notes]] - [[#📚 References]] - [[#🗣️ Paraphrase]] - [[#📰 Newsletter]] - [[#✅ Action Items]] - [[#🧪 Hypotheses]] - [[#📊 Methodology]] - [[#❓ Questions]] - [[#🔮 Future Research]] - [[#💡 Implications]] - [[#🧠 Learning Styles Assessment]] - [[#📊 Accessibility Assessment]] - [[#🌍 DEIB Assessment]] - [[#✅ Logical Validity]] - [[#🛡️ DARVO Analysis]] - [[#🎯 Conclusion]] ### 🔗 References - [Six Colors](https://sixcolors.com) - [Libby App](https://libbyapp.com) - [Crosspoint Firmware](https://crosspoint.io) ## 📝 Summary - Mac Power Users hosts discuss e-reader ecosystems and workflows with Jason Snell - Why dedicated e-readers remain relevant despite smartphones and tablets - Comparison of Kindle vs Kobo hardware and ecosystem benefits - Library integration through Libby app provides free access to ebooks - Alternative e-readers like BOOX and XTE Inc offer different form factors ## 📖 Main Content Jason Snell, publisher of Six Colors and frequent e-reader reviewer, joins Mac Power Users to discuss the current state of e-readers in 2024. The conversation covers why dedicated reading devices still matter in an age of multipurpose tablets, comparing major ecosystems like Amazon Kindle and Kobo, and exploring alternative hardware options. The hosts emphasize that e-readers serve as "unitaskers" - devices focused solely on reading without the distractions inherent in smartphones or tablets. This focus, combined with e-ink displays that are easier on the eyes and offer weeks of battery life, makes dedicated e-readers compelling for serious readers. Key ecosystem differences emerge between Amazon's Kindle platform and the Canadian company Kobo. While Amazon dominates market share, Kobo offers comparable book selection with better hardware features like physical page-turn buttons. Both platforms now integrate well with public libraries through services like Libby and Overdrive. The discussion also covers emerging categories like color e-ink displays (which compromise contrast), Android-based e-readers from companies like BOOX (which require more technical setup), and ultra-portable devices like the XTE Inc X4 (which benefit from open-source firmware like Crosspoint). ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/U_KoHdj43Hs?t=0) — [H1] Introduction to e-reader power user discussion - Key idea: Jason Snell covers e-readers extensively on Six Colors as area of specialty - Evidence: "Every time I want to think about buying a new ebook I'd go over to Six Colors because you cover it so much" #### ⏱️ [03:24](https://youtu.be/U_KoHdj43Hs?t=204) — [H2] Why unitasker e-readers remain relevant - Key idea: Dedicated reading devices eliminate distractions present in multipurpose devices - Evidence: "I like putting my iPad down at the end of the day and picking up the e-reader before I go to sleep and reading a few chapters of a book and not, there is no push notification" #### ⏱️ [08:45](https://youtu.be/U_KoHdj43Hs?t=525) — [H2] Physical book limitations drive e-reader adoption - Key idea: Weight and lighting issues with physical books make e-readers more practical - Evidence: "I would take trips where I was in the middle of a hardcover that weighed seven pounds...you can pull 40 books on an e-reader and it doesn't weigh it doesn't" #### ⏱️ [12:10](https://youtu.be/U_KoHdj43Hs?t=730) — [H1] Jeopardy experience and reading preparation - Key idea: Used e-readers for studying broad topics in preparation for game show - Evidence: "I was sitting on a beach with an e-reader in Hawaii reading about like the first ladies" #### ⏱️ [18:30](https://youtu.be/U_KoHdj43Hs?t=1110) — [H3] Analog book workflow with AI processing - Key idea: Stephen uses shortcuts to extract text from photographed book pages - Evidence: "I have a shortcut that I can run and I save those photos for every single book into an album" #### ⏱️ [22:15](https://youtu.be/U_KoHdj43Hs?t=1335) — [H1] Kindle vs Kobo ecosystem comparison - Key idea: Both ecosystems offer similar book catalogs but different hardware approaches - Evidence: "There is a misconception that Amazon has all the books, the Kobo store has all the books too" #### ⏱️ [25:40](https://youtu.be/U_KoHdj43Hs?t=1540) — [H2] Physical page turn buttons preference - Key idea: Jason prefers physical buttons over touchscreen navigation - Evidence: "My big problem with Amazon is that they don't make a reader with physical page turn buttons anymore" #### ⏱️ [28:55](https://youtu.be/U_KoHdj43Hs?t=1735) — [H1] Library integration through Libby app - Key idea: Public libraries offer extensive ebook collections accessible through dedicated apps - Evidence: "Libraries lend out eBooks in addition to paper books and audio books. And the best app nobody's ever heard of is called Libby" #### ⏱️ [33:20](https://youtu.be/U_KoHdj43Hs?t=2000) — [H3] Color e-ink display tradeoffs - Key idea: Color e-ink screens reduce contrast and may not benefit common use cases - Evidence: "to get color on an E Ink screen, the contrast is a little bit worse" #### ⏱️ [38:45](https://youtu.be/U_KoHdj43Hs?t=2325) — [H2] BOOX Android-based e-readers - Key idea: Android e-readers offer more flexibility but require technical knowledge - Evidence: "it all requires something to be a little, you need to be a little more nerdy because you got to log into the Google Play Store" #### ⏱️ [44:10](https://youtu.be/U_KoHdj43Hs?t=2650) — [H3] XTE Inc ultra-portable e-readers - Key idea: Credit card-sized e-readers offer extreme portability with limitations - Evidence: "It is so it's super primitive. It's based on an ESP32 processor so it's not running an OS as we would think of it" #### ⏱️ [47:30](https://youtu.be/U_KoHdj43Hs?t=2850) — [H2] Crosspoint firmware improvement - Key idea: Open source firmware dramatically improves XTE Inc devices - Evidence: "You go to Crosspoint website in Chrome, there's a button you click that says, upload the firmware" #### ⏱️ [52:15](https://youtu.be/U_KoHdj43Hs?t=3135) — [H1] Reading workflow and habits - Key idea: Consistent end-of-day reading combined with travel creates high volume - Evidence: "I realized that I spend all this time loading movies and TV shows onto my iPad to watch on the plane. And then even if I'm going to London or something, I'll spend most of the time just sitting there reading a book" #### ⏱️ [55:40](https://youtu.be/U_KoHdj43Hs?t=3340) — [H3] Music selection for reading focus - Key idea: Familiar music without new distractions works best for reading concentration - Evidence: "The barrier is I listen to music I'm familiar with...the lyrics don't intrude. it's just music I know by heart" ## 📚 References - [Six Colors](https://sixcolors.com) - [Libby Library App](https://libbyapp.com) - [Hoopla Digital](https://hoopladl.com) - [Crosspoint Firmware](https://crosspoint.io) - [Calibre E-book Management](https://calibre-ebook.com) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - E-readers serve as focused, distraction-free devices that complement rather than compete with smartphones and tablets for serious reading - The major ecosystems (Kindle and Kobo) offer similar book catalogs, but hardware differences like physical buttons and library integration vary significantly - Public libraries have extensive digital collections accessible through apps like Libby, making library cards valuable for accessing free ebooks and audiobooks ## 📰 Newsletter **E-Reader Renaissance: Why Dedicated Reading Devices Still Matter in 2024** While smartphones and tablets can display ebooks, dedicated e-readers continue thriving for good reasons. Jason Snell from Six Colors joined Mac Power Users to discuss why "unitasker" devices focused solely on reading remain compelling. Key benefits include weeks of battery life, eye-friendly e-ink displays, and complete freedom from notifications and distractions. The ecosystem choice between Amazon Kindle and Kobo largely comes down to hardware preferences - Kobo offers physical page-turn buttons that Amazon has discontinued. Perhaps most valuable: your local library likely offers thousands of free ebooks through the Libby app. Get a library card and access professional-quality audiobooks and ebooks at no cost. **Take Action:** Download the Libby app and register with your local library to start reading for free today. Resources: [Libby App](https://libbyapp.com), [Six Colors E-reader Reviews](https://sixcolors.com), [Kobo Store](https://kobo.com) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create content comparing e-reader APIs and development platforms - Education: Workshop on building reading applications for different screen types - Developer experience: Document best practices for e-ink display optimization - Community management: Facilitate discussions about open-source e-reader projects #### Community - Maintainers: Support open-source e-reader firmware projects like Crosspoint - Contributors: Document e-reader modification procedures and compatibility - Ecosystem: Foster connections between hardware makers and software developers #### Personal Workflow - Library: Obtain library cards and set up Libby app for free ebook access - Hardware: Evaluate Kobo vs Kindle based on physical button preferences - Software: Test Crosspoint firmware for alternative e-reader platforms - Reading: Establish consistent daily reading habits and tracking systems ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Dedicated e-readers will maintain market share despite smartphone ubiquity due to focused user experience - Open-source firmware projects will continue improving alternative e-reader hardware options - Library digital lending will expand adoption of e-reading among budget-conscious consumers - Color e-ink displays will eventually achieve contrast parity with monochrome versions ### 📊 Methodology - Survey e-reader users about unitasker vs multitasker device preferences - Benchmark battery life and eye strain across device categories - Track library ebook lending growth and user satisfaction metrics ### ❓ Questions - Will consolidation in the e-reader market reduce hardware innovation and choice? - How will AI integration change reading experiences on dedicated devices? - Can open-source projects sustain development of competitive e-reader software? ### 🔮 Future Research - Long-term eye health studies comparing e-ink vs LCD reading - User behavior analysis of distraction-free vs connected reading devices - Economic impact of library digital lending on publishing industry ### 💡 Implications - Practice: E-readers remain viable tools for focused, extended reading sessions - Technology: Open-source firmware can dramatically improve proprietary hardware - Education: Library systems provide significant value through digital lending programs - Publishing: Multiple viable ecosystems prevent single-vendor lock-in for readers ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 10th grade (accessible to general technology audience) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Discussion of screen types, button layouts, device comparisons - Improve: Device comparison charts, workflow diagrams, screen technology visuals #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full audio podcast format with detailed verbal explanations - Improve: Timestamp-based navigation for specific topics #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear definitions of e-ink, DRM, ecosystems with analogies - Improve: Glossary of technical terms, comparison matrices #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Hands-on device testing, firmware flashing procedures - Improve: Step-by-step setup guides, interactive device configurators #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Systematic ecosystem comparisons, decision trees for device selection - Improve: Feature matrices, cost-benefit analyses, workflow flowcharts #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community discussion format, shared experiences - Improve: Reading group coordination tools, social reading features #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual device evaluation, personal workflow optimization - Improve: Self-assessment questionnaires, personalized recommendation tools #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Battery life benefits, reduced e-waste through dedicated devices - Improve: Environmental impact comparisons, sustainability considerations ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, descriptive link text - Improve: Alt text for device images, screen reader-friendly comparison tables #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard podcast controls, navigable timestamps - Improve: Skip links for different topics, keyboard shortcuts #### Contrast and readability - Present: High contrast text in show notes - Improve: Dark mode options, adjustable text sizing #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive transcript formatting - Improve: Text spacing controls, zoom compatibility #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript available - Improve: Synchronized captions, downloadable transcript formats #### Forms and interactions - Present: Simple timestamp navigation - Improve: Accessible media player controls, clear focus indicators #### Standards reference - Map to WCAG 2.2 AA for media accessibility and navigation ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion of global library systems, international device availability - Improve: Examples from diverse geographical regions, multilingual options #### Inclusive language - Present: Gender-neutral technical terms, accessible explanations - Improve: Plain language summaries, avoided assumptions about technical knowledge #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Chunked content with clear topics, consistent structure - Improve: Content warnings for rapidly changing topics, cognitive load considerations #### Representation - Present: Diverse perspectives on reading preferences and accessibility needs - Improve: Include voices from different socioeconomic backgrounds regarding library access #### Psychological safety - Present: Non-judgmental discussion of different reading preferences - Improve: Acknowledge that not all solutions work for everyone ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Well-supported claims about e-reader benefits based on specific features - Inductive strength: Personal experiences generalized appropriately to broader patterns - Causal reasoning: Clear links between device features and user behaviors - Analogical strength: Appropriate comparisons between reading devices and workflows #### Fallacies - Appeal to authority: Relying heavily on Jason's expertise without external validation - Anecdotal evidence: Personal workflows may not apply broadly to all users #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Conversational and informative, balancing technical detail with accessibility ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No problematic patterns detected - Attack: No attacks on users with different preferences - Reverse victim/offender: Not applicable - Emotional cues and --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] Hello and welcome to Mac Power Users. [00:02] My name is Stephen Robles. [00:03] Joined by my friend and yours, David Sparks. [00:05] How's it going, David? [00:06] Hey Steven, how are you today? [00:07] I'm doing well, I'm excited to talk about an interesting product category today with a special guest. [00:14] Yeah, welcome to the show, Jason Snell. [00:14] So good to have you back. [00:17] One of the ultimate Mac power users is also an ebook power user. [00:21] when we thought. [00:24] Yeah, no, I think so, Every time I want to think about buying a new ebook or I'd go over to Six Colors because you cover it so much and we thought it'd be fun to share with the [00:32] audience. [00:33] Just kind of a check in on the state of ebooks and some of our workflows and what we're doing with them and you're the guy, man. [00:41] Okay, well, I'm happy to be that guy. [00:44] That is one of the areas where I'm an outlier in my specialty area, but I'm interested in the subject and I use the product. [00:50] So, you know, one of the beauties of going out on your own is you can sort of decide what you want to cover to a certain extent. [00:56] so I get, I actually get a lot, this will probably come up. [00:59] I get a lot of questions from people about these large format e-readers where you can have a pen and you can take notes. [01:06] And I don't. [01:08] I'm not interested in that category, so I have no opinions about it. [01:12] Like, large e-readers and writing with a pen on an e-reader, I just don't care. [01:16] Perfectly valid category, they're trying to find more users for this, for e-readers in general. [01:21] think getting people to use it as a note-taking device and have it be kind of e-paper is cool and all, but I'm not. [01:28] I have the luxury of picking my spots, and that is not a spot I'm interested in picking, so I focus on reading, the reading part of readers. [01:36] and for folks who don't know, Jason reads a lot of books. [01:39] So, um and primarily fiction, I believe, but the... [01:43] There's nonfiction in there too, but yeah. [01:46] Like, you know, whatever. [01:48] 80 or 90 books a year sometimes. [01:49] I don't know. [01:49] It's a lot. [01:50] I did a lot last year. [01:52] Certainly 50. [01:53] My Goodreads target is 52 books a year, one a week. [01:56] And I've been over that. [01:59] That's awesome. [02:00] I also do want to say a follow-up. [02:01] I watched you on Jeopardy when you were on there, and pretty wild how long the run was of the person who won that round, that game. [02:09] Oh yeah, the guy who beat me, Jamie Ding, won 31 games in a row and he's the fifth all-time best Jeopardy player, so I don't feel bad about losing to him. [02:15] And again, that was not a runaway. [02:17] if he had gotten, the truth is, if he had gotten the final Jeopardy question wrong and I had gotten it right, I would have beaten him. [02:22] And the same for my fellow opponent, Jordan. [02:25] It just so happens that he knew it because he knows everything. [02:30] But I did read a huge load of mostly sort of like children's books about [02:36] broad subjects because that was one of the pieces of advice that I got about studying for Jeopardy. [02:41] So I was sitting on a beach with an e-reader in Hawaii reading about like the first ladies. [02:46] That was stuff that I was doing in the run up to being on Jeopardy was reading a bunch of e-books about uh random topics that I might be asked about, including composers, which was [02:56] the final Jeopardy I lost on. [02:58] But I went back and looked and that the trivia bit that was [03:02] The Final Jeopardy question for me was not in that book, The Lives of the Composer. [03:06] I was worried that I had read it and forgotten it. [03:10] um And I knew something about that fact through history, but I couldn't place it because classical music is not my thing. [03:19] And that is an understatement, is one of my horror categories. [03:22] But the good news is that the book that I read on the beach about the composers did not actually include that trivia tidbit, so I wasn't going to get it. [03:30] Well, I would say, yeah, and we watched that whole game live, and me and my wife are musicians, and we actually took two semesters of music history as a requirement for our [03:39] degree. [03:40] And even that, us, the Final Jeopardy! [03:41] tripped us up as well, so it's tough. [03:43] Jordan, who was on with me from Edmonton, she's an Episcopal priest and she did her viewing party with people from her church community, including the choir. [03:53] And not only did the entire choir sing along to the Jeopardy music at the end, but they all knew the answer because they're all classical music people being in a church choir. [04:02] And they knew that the Brahms lullaby is the name of the lullaby song that I never knew was anything but the lullaby song. [04:09] And so I was never going to get that one. [04:12] So for folks who aren't up to speed, Jason went on Jeopardy. [04:15] He did very well, but he got beat by one of the biggest champions in the history of game. [04:21] So if you're gonna get beat, that's the guy to get beat by, right? [04:24] my narrative kept changing, because when we showed up that morning, em he was just the guy who won on Friday. [04:30] So like literally, he was a one-time champion. [04:32] was the least intimidating you could possibly be, because you just won the last game on the previous tape day. [04:39] And so that was fine. [04:40] And then they tape five games a day. [04:43] And on day two, he set an all-time record for basically, he tied the records for the most right answers in a game, and he set an all-time record for their [04:50] a stat called Coriat, which is basically the sum of the money you would earn for correct answers. [04:56] And that's 42 years of history. [04:58] And he played basically the best game in history. [05:01] And that's when everybody in the green room looked at each other and was like, oh no. [05:04] And then after we left, I lost game five to him. [05:08] He won 31 games. [05:09] So the longer it went, the less bad any of us felt about losing to Jamie because he was... [05:16] uh He's just a great, he's an all-time great player. [05:19] So it was a fun experience, uh really a life list kind of experience. [05:22] I got to take a picture with Ken Jennings and tell an anecdote. [05:26] I told the anecdote about getting um a hands-on briefing with the iPhone the day after it was announced and months before anybody else uh got the final unit. [05:36] And that's a fun story that you always wonder if I'm going to go on TV and they ask me one anecdote from my life, what's it going to be? [05:43] And it turns out it was the iPhone anecdote. [05:45] that they liked. [05:46] that was a fun story to tell on TV. [05:50] yeah, there's a big, you give them a list and then there's a questionnaire so that if the items you came up with are bad, they ask you bunch of like leading questions and you fill [05:59] out this PDF and then on the day they give you a card uh with five of them that they've selected and those are the ones that they've chosen and that's the card Ken Jennings holds [06:09] when he's talking to you. [06:11] And then they walk through a couple of them. [06:14] and have you kind of tell that story in the morning before the taping, and they decide on the one that they like and they circle that one. [06:20] And so that was the one that they picked. [06:23] I thought for a long time that they were going to pick um the fact that when the iPod was introduced, not six months goes by where somebody doesn't send me an email or a text [06:32] saying, is that you in the iPod lunch video? [06:34] And the answer is yes, I am prominently featured in the audience of the iPod lunch video. [06:38] It is me, it is still me. [06:40] But um I think the iPhone has a little more. [06:42] modern currency than the iPod at this point. [06:45] So they went with that [06:47] Well, getting back to the topic of reading. [06:50] So you're not interested in the big notebook style devices. [06:54] I will just weigh in on that real quickly. [06:57] Everybody in the audience, by everybody, a lot of you keep telling me how useful these E Ink uh writing devices are. [07:05] I have now three times purchased one and returned it, and I have just realized that I should be on a list where I'm not allowed to buy them because. [07:13] They do nothing for me. [07:15] I would rather use paper and pencil or digital tools. [07:19] And I know the emails are gonna come because I said this, but I just cannot get into those devices. [07:25] get why people like them, although I would say I have a 13-inch iPad Pro and an Apple Pencil. [07:34] the truth is, if I even had a glimmer of that, I would think of it. [07:40] But I was a kid who had bad handwriting. [07:42] I never have felt comfortable holding a pencil or a pen. [07:46] For me, the greatest joy of discovering computers was that I could type out words instead of writing them by hand. [07:52] And so the idea, I find no comfort [07:55] in writing notes by hand. [07:56] And I understand that a lot of people do, and that's great. [08:00] And if I was back in college, I obviously took notes by hand and I can do it. [08:05] uh if I could do that on an iPad today, that would make me like, well, would it be better to do something on a different kind of device than an iPad? [08:13] But the truth is that that mode just isn't of any interest to me at all. [08:18] I take notes on a computer or an iPad or uh my phone. [08:24] by typing in words. [08:26] I do bring a notepad with me sometimes to like interviews and stuff and I scribble things down. [08:32] But even then I wouldn't want to be in the moment of like being a journalist or interviewing somebody, I would not want to fuss with anybody's software. [08:39] a pencil or pen and paper for that. [08:42] Yeah. [08:42] all my notes in one place because part of the power of doing that is then searchability and now with some of the AI tools just being able to synthesize all that information and [08:51] while you could write even with an iPad, Apple Pencil and you know make that into searchable or even printed text, why? [09:00] I mean [09:00] stuff does get, I mean, all that stuff does get indexed now, whether it's on an e-reader or on the iPad, there is handwriting recognition that puts that somewhere where you can [09:07] search it and all of that. [09:08] Like you can do it. [09:10] And for some people, think that's the, like, I love the fact that if you're somebody who's most comfortable putting a stylus on a flat plane and writing out words, and that is the [09:20] thing that really hones your thoughts or allows you to collect information, that it's no longer a dead end. [09:25] I love that. [09:26] It's just not something that I'm interested in at [09:29] And I'll also say, my colleague Jason, he uses the Remarkable. [09:34] He has the one that's almost like a handheld type Remarkable tablet because it's more of like a notepad, more portable. [09:40] But for me personally, like both of you, none of those devices have appealed to me because also if I want an e-reader, I don't want a multi-device. [09:48] I don't want something that can do multiple things because reading is something that I want to focus on. [09:54] yeah, go ahead. [09:54] think actually brings us to one of the most important points whenever I talk about e-readers, which is people say you have an iPad and an iPhone, why have another device? [10:03] Why have a unitasker? [10:05] And my answer is that the unitasker is the point for exactly the point you made, which is I like to buy a reading device that is just a reading device. [10:15] And really it's just a text reading device. [10:18] Like there are color e-readers now, I have one, I use it. [10:23] the color is irrelevant to me. [10:24] really is text on a page for reading text on a page. [10:28] For comics, I will read an iPad because I would rather look at my OLED screen on my iPad Pro to read a comic book that's in full color and is awesome and beautiful. [10:37] But like for text on a page, I know that there are focus modes, right? [10:41] Like this is Mac power users. [10:43] I know about focus modes and all of that. [10:44] But the fact is, even with focus modes, [10:47] A multitasking device where you know that everything else on the internet is a swipe away is really different than a device that is a unitasker that's really just for reading. [11:00] And in addition to that, like it's reflective light instead of a back light. [11:05] So it's easier on the eyes. [11:06] You can crank it down really low if you're reading in bed at night. [11:09] It's got a very simple interface and the battery lasts forever. [11:12] like there are lots of reasons to... [11:15] to have an e-reader, that is, for me, the number one reason is I like putting my iPad down at the end of the day and picking up the e-reader before I go to sleep and reading a few [11:25] chapters of a book and not, there is no push notification. [11:29] There's no temptation to check my email or to look at social media or to look at Slack. [11:35] I'm just reading a book at that point. [11:37] I, again, doesn't have to be the approach for everybody, but that's why I like it is that it doesn't do anything else. [11:44] And I actually go all the way to the analog spectrum. [11:47] So when I read books, I buy the physical book and I have it shipped to my house and I read the tree in my hands. [11:54] And one of the things I've wanted to use e-readers for, and maybe by the end of this conversation I'll try a different one, is for like highlighting passages or saving parts [12:02] of the book for later, whether it's quotes. [12:05] And so the elaborate system I've come up with is basically a shortcut where I will take pictures of the pages that I want to remember something from. [12:12] and I have a shortcut that I can run and I save those photos for every single book into an album. [12:17] So I'll have a photo album for the book 4,000 weeks and then I'll take a shortcut, run it on that album and it pulls all the text from all the pages that I took pictures of, parses [12:28] it using Apple Intelligence and the ChatGVT extension and just makes a bare note with pull quotes and good points and I can always look back at the photos and search them because [12:36] photos will search the text as well if there's something I wanted to find again. [12:40] That's very impressive. [12:40] Although I'll say you could also invest in like a highlighter pen and some bookmarks and like your dog ear some pages and you could do it that way too. [12:46] But yours is more high tech, which I appreciate. [12:50] yeah. [12:52] I know. [12:53] Well, I mean, yeah. [12:54] Or you get some post-its. [12:55] There are lots of analog techniques, but I get what you're saying, which is you're snapping interesting things and then those are getting converted to text and then you've [13:01] captured your interesting things. [13:04] What pushed me again, since we're kind laying the groundwork here, [13:08] One of the things that pushed me over into eBooks is I would take trips where I was in the middle of a hardcover that weighed seven pounds and I was only about I was like three [13:18] quarters of the way through it, but it was the book I was reading. [13:20] So I take it with me and I like finish it on the plane. [13:22] And then it's just like I'm carrying it around and I'm carrying it home when I'm done. [13:26] And I realized like you can you can pull 40 books on an e-reader and it doesn't weigh it doesn't. [13:30] But the bites don't make it any heavier. [13:33] So I think that's a great advantage. [13:35] And I just I recently read a book in paper. [13:38] which is rare for me, but it's a book that came out in the UK and you could order the physical book on Amazon from the UK and it'll ship it to you, but for e-reading, it's [13:49] locked to the region, so it's not available if you're in America, and so I bought the physical book, because it's an author I really like, it's a sequel to a book I really [13:56] loved, and I read that in paper. [13:58] And what it reminded me is, yeah, it is like, oh, I gotta hold it, and then it's got two, and I gotta move my head, and then gotta physically switch, but what really got me about [14:06] it is, [14:07] Paper books don't light themselves and you can get a book light and all of that, but I read a lot at night in the dark when my wife is already asleep. [14:15] also, frankly, the lighting in my house isn't really great for reading books a lot of the time. [14:21] You're like, gotta turn the lights on brighter and I gotta angle the book to get the light. [14:25] like e-books, they light themselves now. [14:27] The original Kindles didn't do that, by the way. [14:29] It was really embarrassing. [14:31] But they do now and that's really good. [14:33] And so that's another reason why I kind of have let paper books go by the wayside. [14:38] it's generational too. [14:39] um For me, uh I carried 100 pounds of law books when I was in school. [14:47] I have carried books and read physical books for the first half of my life, and I'm okay not doing that again. [14:54] Whereas I think for people who grew up with e-books, there's a romance to physical books that I don't feel. [15:01] I think that's true in general. [15:02] think there are a lot of people who love, like I love books. [15:05] My wife is a librarian, okay? [15:07] I love books. [15:08] We have a lot of books. [15:09] The books I buy now tend to be coffee table books, photography books, comic book, hardcover collections that are just gorgeous. [15:18] Absolutely, I still buy books, but what I don't buy is cheaper, just text on a page books, because I'd much rather have the portability for those. [15:26] And yeah, mean, your law books is very similar to my... [15:30] I'm reading a Neal, no, I'm reading a thousand page long Neal Stephenson book and I'm going to Hawaii and I have to lug this thing with me, which is literally what happened. [15:38] The last big hardcover book I traveled with right before I bought my first Kindle was a Neal Stephenson Kryptonomicon or something. [15:44] It was like a thousand pages long. [15:46] I looked up the weight of it and it was like five pounds or something. [15:50] It's just like, forget it. [15:51] So I have no nostalgia for that, but I don't blame people who want to feel connected to the book in some way and who like having books on shelves in their house. [16:00] Again, I do have books on shelves in my house, but if I'm reading at night, I'd rather, I had to find a book light and clip it on when I was reading that one book in paper, and I [16:10] was like, this is why I don't do this. [16:12] I will say that I didn't carry a lot of books in college, but I carried a lot of sheet music and so maybe, and I do like digital sheet music now on iPad, but I will say I do [16:22] have nostalgia for books because when I first entered the Apple world, I learned by books and I still have my original Final Cut Express HD manual that I bought from Barnes & Noble [16:34] because it was that book that's literally, I literally learned from that and the Adobe Photoshop book and so I do have some nostalgia for the physical maybe. [16:41] Yeah, I think on the internet, everything's taken to an extreme. [16:44] I think you like what you like. [16:46] If you want to take notes with a pen, you should do that. [16:49] If you want to read paper books, you should do that. [16:51] What I really like is that we now have other options that sometimes a lot of people will find superior. [16:58] And I think that's a good thing. [17:00] And yeah, if you're reading nonfiction, especially, although I do this because I do podcasts about a lot of the books I read um for the incomparable. [17:07] like, [17:08] Highlighting passages that are interesting in order to get that highlights file out later or even taking a brief note I also have a bunch of friends who are novelists and I get the [17:18] ebooks from them when they're working on them like a beta version of the book and that's also great for similar reasons I can select and put a little note in that is you know [17:27] cryptic but enough for me to expand on it when I finally send my uh My notes back to them. [17:33] So there are lots of great uses of [17:36] this sort of thing. [17:37] And that's why I've kind of adopted it. [17:38] I'm a big [17:39] would like to talk about the ecosystems because I am a bit out of touch. [17:43] I rage quit Kindle when they said they wouldn't let me download the books anymore. [17:49] I've been buying books from Kobo, but I have not bought a reader from them. [17:53] I just read them on my phone. [17:55] don't know, Jason, what is out there now if someone wants to get into eBooks? [17:59] Well, a lot of people are on Kindle and I hear that when I recommend other readers that are not Amazon's readers. [18:06] um That's what I hear from a lot of people is they feel like they're locked in. [18:11] What I would say to that is, first off is like there are better Kindles than there used to be. [18:16] The Kindle software was a joke for a very long time and it's much, much better now. [18:21] uh My big problem with Amazon is that they don't make a reader with physical. [18:27] page turn buttons anymore, which I'm a big fan of. [18:29] I really like the idea of resting my finger on a button and then going click, click, click instead of having to like move my finger over and tap and make sure I tap right and then [18:36] move it back. [18:37] And it's just a, it's a little affordance, but, and I guess it's kind of a luxury. [18:41] don't consider it a luxury, but Amazon sort of first they considered it a luxury and then they just stopped making it all together. [18:47] and that bugs me, but they have some very good, like the paper white is a really good, fairly affordable reader. [18:54] Um, [18:55] The signature edition of that has an accelerometer in it so that if you really want a physical page turn experience, you can double tap the back with your finger and it will [19:03] turn the page, which is kind of nice that they did that. [19:06] um But also I felt like I didn't really feel good in the Kindle ecosystem. [19:14] um So the first thing I'll say is, if you've got a lot of Kindle books and so you can't imagine giving them up, if you have a Kindle or a device [19:24] that uses a Kindle app, you can still, you can keep your Kindle books, right? [19:29] Like there's, think there's nothing stopping you from keeping your old e-reader around unless it breaks. [19:34] Although even then you could, you could probably find a used, a used Kindle that still connects to Amazon. [19:40] And like, as long as you've got a Kindle to read, if you want to revisit an old book on your Kindle or on your iPhone or on your iPad, you can do that. [19:48] So I think that it's not as dire a situation. [19:52] as it might be because you can keep it around. [19:54] I keep an old Kindle around. [19:56] I mean, I have a lot of old Kindles, but I keep some around. [19:59] And if there's a book that's on the Kindle, I'll go read it on the Kindle. [20:04] Also, there is a world of like DRM removal out there that is technically illegal. [20:09] I think it's fair use. [20:10] And if you have a physical Kindle, um it's easier to do that, although Amazon makes it increasingly hard. [20:15] But there's also just, you know, keep your old Kindle around and get a new e-reader. [20:19] um So I think it's not as big a barrier as maybe people make it out to be. [20:23] um Kobo is the big competitor. [20:26] I have looked at some of the others. [20:27] In Europe, there are some other competitors that are not really available in America. [20:30] um Kobo is uh a Canadian company. [20:36] um There is a misconception that Amazon has all the books, the Kobo store has all the books too. [20:43] They're generally at the exact same price. [20:45] I think Kobo has a price guarantee so that if it's cheaper at Kindle, [20:48] you can take a screenshot and say, me a refund of the difference, and they will do that. [20:53] So there's a lot to be said for that. [20:55] And Kobo's hardware is really good. [20:57] That's the other big thing about it. [20:59] Kobo hardware is really good. [21:00] have... [21:01] um The one I'm using is the Kobo... [21:04] I think it's the Libra. [21:06] Is it the Libra color? [21:07] um Which is... [21:11] Like I preferred the Kobo Libre 2, which was replaced by the Libre color because to get color on an E Ink screen, the contrast is a little bit worse. [21:21] But the fact is they're not selling that. [21:22] They're only selling the color version. [21:24] that is, at this point, that's my favorite. [21:27] E-Reader is the Kobo Libre color. [21:29] There are some other really good Kobos that are larger. [21:32] That one is the sweet spot for me. [21:34] I think my wife is using a Kobo Sage, which is a little bit larger. [21:37] uh [21:39] And so it's more like a trade paperback instead of a paperback, I guess. [21:45] Yeah, I think they're going to replace it with something. [21:49] This is what concerns me is that I worry about what Kobo is doing in terms of their e-reader priorities. [21:55] I think that um the Libra is the sweet spot right now if you're looking for something other than a Kindle. [22:03] If you're looking for a Kindle, I would look at the Paperwhite. [22:06] I think the Paperwhite is the sweet spot there. [22:08] um It's a good product. [22:10] It's just You know, it's Amazon. [22:13] There are a lot of things about Amazon that I don't love It's better than it used to be but um but I have I have had no Issues going to Kobo from Kindle. [22:22] They both also I will say they both do a good job of supporting Libraries, which didn't used to be the case. [22:28] It used to be that Kindle was much worse the libraries in Kobo um Kindle is in some ways better than Kobo now in terms of libraries, but basically they both will support [22:37] using Overdrive with your local library. [22:39] um And that's a side tip here is if you don't have a library card from your local library, you should get one because libraries lend out eBooks in addition to paper books and audio [22:53] books. [22:54] And the best app nobody's ever heard of is called Libby, which is the app that is the front end for that. [23:00] And you log in with your library card and you can use it to listen to audio books. [23:04] And it's a good audio book app. [23:06] and you can use it to hold and check out eBooks. [23:12] And then once you log in on your Kindle, on your Kindle, you go to the Amazon website and press a button and get sent to your Kindle. [23:19] On Kobo, you log into your library on your Kobo. [23:22] And then when you check out a book on Libby and you sync your Kobo, just, the book shows up. [23:26] And so it's just kind of instantaneous that way. [23:29] You can also actually browse your library on Kobo, which is a unique feature of Kobo. [23:33] But I, to be honest, [23:36] Browsing through web pages on an e-reader is no fun and the Libby app is great. [23:40] So if you're on an iPhone or iPad or whatever, uh the Libby app is awesome and then you can just send those to your device and read a book. [23:48] It's really great. [23:50] also shout out the Hoopla app just because my wife uses this like the heck out of Hoopla like any anytime she hears a book recommendation she'll just go directly to the Hoopla app [24:00] and nine times out of ten it's the same thing you give it your public library card or register it and then you can just listen to the audiobook and just go and it's free [24:08] Yeah. [24:09] Yeah. [24:09] Which is, guess, technically, audiobooks are kind of at this point, e-reading of a different kind. [24:14] But yeah, there is, don't sleep in the library is what I'm saying. [24:18] may have, Hoopla also gives you access to like movies and stuff that you just get for free with your library card, which is pretty great. [24:24] So, but I think a lot of people think of the library as being uh whatever it was when they were a kid and it's like books uh on shelves and stuff, which is still all there. [24:32] My wife is a librarian. [24:33] It's all still there. [24:34] But. [24:35] It's also eBooks and audio books. [24:37] And, um, and yeah, if you're not using the Libby app, you should be because you will get, I read a lot of books checked out from the library now that I don't have to buy. [24:46] Um, and that's always my first stop is, I heard about this new book and I'll put it on hold at the library. [24:52] And if I just can't wait, I'll, I'll buy it on Kobo. [24:54] But, um, a lot of times it's actually kind of funny to play. [24:57] It's fun to play the library roulette where you've got a stack of, uh a stack of holds and then, you know, [25:04] Weeks will pass and you'll get a push notification from Libby that says, this book out of that stack, this random book is the one that's up next. [25:10] And you're like, great, let's check it out. [25:12] And that's kind of fun to have a little, it's a list you built, but after weeks go by, you're like, you don't even remember what's on that list and you're adding to it all the [25:19] time. [25:19] And then things will just pop up and you can uh read that ebook right then. [25:23] It's pretty great or audio book. [25:25] uh One of my favorite things to do when I visit a city if I have extra time is like go to a library and in the state of California as a result collected a collection of library [25:34] cards which gives me even more power in those applications with ebooks But interesting when you travel like I went to Edinburgh last year they wouldn't give me a library card [25:44] because I was a Yankee but the uh [25:47] if you live in the Bay Area, you can walk into the San Francisco library and get an SFPL card. [25:51] And one of the nice things about Libby is if your library does reciprocal with other libraries, or if you get a library card at another library, you can all you can add them [26:00] all to Libby and it will do some intelligent matching of like this book is actually available at this other library sooner and they'll let you put put it on hold there or [26:08] check it out. [26:09] But but yeah, it's Biblio tourism. [26:11] Being married to a librarian, I have been to lots of libraries around the world. [26:16] It's true. [26:17] there's actually really fun community on TikTok of librarians and libraries trying to do like super trendy or, you know, take advantage of whatever's going viral right now, but [26:27] then like show that you should read a book and go to your local library. [26:30] And it's pretty great. [26:31] I kind of love it. [26:32] I also wanted to mention with Kindle before we get too far away, I did have the occasion. [26:36] I bought e-readers for my two younger kids this past holidays and I did get Kindles and I actually got my middle son a Kindle Colorsoft because he enjoys reading manga. [26:45] And I was like, this is going to be great. [26:47] Like he can actually see the colors and stuff. [26:49] And I would just caution anyone, if you're wanting to get a color e-reader, make sure that the actual things you're going to read are in color and provided in color. [26:58] Because we came to realize that all the manga he reads is just black and white. [27:02] Like the color is cover, or the cover is color on like the Kindle Colorsoft. [27:07] But then as soon as you open it, it's black and white. [27:09] manga is black and white. [27:10] Yeah, it's also true that the colors in a color-y reader are muted. [27:15] I've heard people say, yeah, but you get those book covers and then when you turn off your reader, the book cover is in color. [27:20] And it's like, yeah, but the backlight goes off and you can't see it it's muddy. [27:23] it's a momentary, I question, unless you're somebody, this is a use case, if you're a highlighter person and you highlight different things in different colors. [27:33] it's really great because you can now highlight in six different colors. [27:36] And so you've got your little virtual highlighter pens there and that can be a signal later. [27:41] But um for comics, the other problem is the size. [27:44] A lot of comics are just meant for a format that's larger, which is why I think an iPad is much superior to any e-reader, especially a smaller e-reader. [27:52] you know, I have read comics on my Kobo mostly as a test and on the Kindle Colorsoft. [28:00] But like really for it to be readable, you got to zoom in and then you're like, then you're using an interface. [28:06] Then you're like panning around within the page and then it's not as fun as just having a page in front of you. [28:13] I don't, yeah, be really wary about comics and color on e-readers. [28:19] Cause it will look, I have no doubt that the ultimate comic book reading or manga reading e-reader is gonna happen. [28:29] that they will make one that is really nice color and is really large so you can not have to resize the image. [28:36] But um it's gonna be a while and at that point I still think you'd be better off with an iPad. [28:43] the topic of color, I just want to follow up. [28:44] The Kobo, because I'm thinking about getting an e-reader. [28:46] It's been a long time since I've used one. [28:48] I just use my iPad generally. [28:50] um so the Kobo is of interest to me, but when you say the one you have has color on it, to me, that is a concern because I actually just want the text to be super sharp. [29:01] Does adding color to that Kobo compromise the actual text? [29:06] I mean, it is. [29:07] So I did a review of it where I did a zoom in on the Libre 2 and the Libre Color. [29:13] And you can see that in the Libre Color, there is a kind of, it's a little bit grayer in the background. [29:19] And it's actually like a fine dot pattern on the device. [29:24] In practice, I've been using the Libre Color as my primary e-reader for the last year. [29:29] And the truth is, it isn't an issue. [29:32] um [29:33] It does, the text is just as crisp. [29:35] It's just that the background is not as kind of like white. [29:40] It's a little grayer, but it's already a little gray. [29:43] It's just a matter of being slightly grayer more than anything else. [29:46] um So I don't think it's a big issue. [29:49] And the thing is really the color is irrelevant. [29:52] um The text is all in black and white and reads very clearly. [29:56] Color, the color DPI on these displays is actually lower, but the black and white DPI is still high. [30:02] So it doesn't. [30:02] It doesn't, I would say what I don't like about it is it's a step back. [30:08] That if you don't care about color, you're getting a display that is not as crisp as the old one was in terms of the contrast anyway. [30:15] But the truth is in practice using it day to day, it's fine. [30:20] Yeah. [30:21] Does that affect battery life as well? [30:23] No, the E Ink screen's just a little bit different, but the battery life on these things is enormous. [30:30] I mean, that's part of the beauty of it is that eBooks aren't very big, so you can load dozens of books on it and the battery will last you. [30:37] If you turn off wifi and Bluetooth, like it'll last you at least a week, if not more. [30:43] There's enormous standby time and enormous reading time. [30:46] So that's one of the things I love about it is that the battery life is so long. [30:50] So you've already talked about some multi-devices like taking notes and e-readers and you don't prefer those. [30:54] I'm curious if you've tried things like the BOOX Palma 2 Pro. [30:58] I got one of these and was like, this will be like a little e-reader and it'll have a camera and I can install Pocket Casts and I can literally listen to podcasts on it. [31:06] And then I found myself never picking it up. [31:09] ah [31:10] I've reviewed a bunch of the books, Books is a Chinese company that is taking stock Android parts and making e-readers out of them. [31:20] So stock Android parts and stock e-ink parts and using Android as the backing. [31:25] And then they try to do some customization. [31:27] What's funny is I've been reviewing their stuff for a while now and the first stuff that they sent me was really bad. [31:32] Like the hardware was good, but the software was just... [31:36] It's Android, it thinks it's a phone, even though it's not. [31:39] uh And what's happened over time is that they have gotten better at modifying Android, and they have gotten, I think, basically, not only their own apps, but partnerships with other [31:48] apps to say, we really want you to do an E Ink mode. [31:58] If you're running Android, first off, it always assumes you're on a color. [32:03] uh [32:04] LCD screen phone. [32:06] So the problem is it's black and white or it's a very limited color palette. [32:11] And what you really want is not to scroll. [32:13] You want page refresh because you can't scroll any screen. [32:17] The refresh rate is so slow. [32:18] If you try on that book's Palma and an app that wants to scroll and you do this, it's just this smear that happens in a bunch of flashes. [32:28] And eventually it settles down. [32:29] It's really bad. [32:30] So they've gotten a lot better over time with it. [32:33] And the Palma [32:34] So they make ones that are the exact same size as a Kobo and a Kindle and have page turn buttons on them and are pretty good. [32:40] The problem is it all requires something to be a little, you need to be a little more nerdy because you got to log into the Google Play Store and you might need to go to the [32:49] Play Store and download some apps and configure them right. [32:54] And there's like shortcuts of like long presses to get things. [32:58] It's not the beauty of Kindle and Kobo, both of which I think are based on Android. [33:03] is they only really run one app and it's the app you use for everything all the time. [33:07] And like you see nothing beyond that. [33:09] And with books, you have to use Android. [33:13] And I'm not saying anything pejorative about Android. [33:14] I'm just saying you need to be a little more technically astute in order to do it. [33:20] um And then early on, I found that the quality even being fairly technically astute was not great. [33:26] It's a lot better. [33:28] What makes the palma interesting is it's the shape of a phone. [33:31] And that means it's much more pocketable. [33:33] And I like that about it. [33:36] I also in practice don't use it very much because the phone, for me, the phone size is less comfortable in my hand. [33:43] And because it's from a phone, the page turn buttons are the volume control buttons on the side, which means that you're kind of like gripping it in your claw and then you need to [33:52] get a finger right on the button so you can press the next page button. [33:56] And like, I know that's a little thing, but ergonomics matter. [33:58] And like, [34:00] the thin and light and a little bit wider e-ink readers from Amazon and Kobo are I think nicer to hold in the hand than the shape of a smartphone. [34:13] And you already have a smartphone, right? [34:16] So you get the Books Palma and now you get two smartphones in your pockets. [34:19] I love the idea of it. [34:24] And I think that there are people for whom it is perfect because it is smaller, because it is so [34:29] pocketable, it is, you know, there's, I feel like, I hope there's enough of a market. [34:38] think the problem is the market isn't big enough because like, feel like there is room for somebody to make a better e-ink reader that is based on Android, but has more apps on it. [34:50] Like I would be really, I mean, I wish Kindle and Kobo would do this, but they won't, which is I would love an RSS reader. [34:58] on my e-reader where I could read articles because that is also just reading text on a screen and I do that on my iPad instead. [35:06] But like I'm intrigued by that kind of idea, but that requires extensibility that Kobo and Kindle are never gonna give me. [35:14] So an Android e-reader that's a little more extensible, but pretty easy to use uh would be really nice. [35:21] I just don't know if there are enough people in that market, all the books is trying. [35:25] Books is the company that's... [35:27] that's trying there. [35:29] That's been my white whale. [35:30] I'm a big fan of the readwise service and so much so that I use their reader app So my RSS feed is also in their app and I've loaded a lot of my ebooks into it So it's like the one [35:41] stop for me Go ahead [35:44] Kobo credit, they used to have a partnership with Pocket and Pocket went out of business. [35:47] They now have a partnership with Instapaper. [35:49] So all your Instapaper articles will sync to the Kobo and Kobo also has Dropbox support. [35:55] So any PDF or ebook file or anything else you drop in a particular folder on Dropbox will also be loadable. [36:03] it's better, but the actual like, what you have is what they give you. [36:09] And that's all you get. [36:10] You can't install an extra thing on a cobalt or a Kindle. [36:14] It's just not what they want you to do. [36:16] So my white whale is a e-reader that also runs the read wise reader, which exists in Android. [36:22] and, and I got, I bought one of the books readers and I installed it and the experience was terrible. [36:29] And I realized, yeah. [36:32] And unless the developer modifies it, that's the real challenge right now, is that as extensible as Android is, the bottom line is you need developers who are aware that they [36:45] might be running on any ink reader. [36:48] very few of them are. [36:49] There's some open source projects or some very small Android developers who really see the value in it. [36:55] There's a really good e-b- [36:57] generic ebook reader called Moon Plus on Android that's very good um that I use when I'm using the books one. [37:06] There's another reader I wanna mention, which is not an ecosystem as much as just a piece of hardware. [37:12] I know Stephen has one of these too, which is this company called XTE Inc. [37:17] Again, out of China. [37:18] And they are making these, a little tiny, they're teeny tiny e-readers. [37:23] thing called the X4 and then they now have one that's called the X3. [37:26] X3 is small enough that you can actually like attach it magnetically to the back of your iPhone. [37:31] X4 is a little too big for modern iPhones. [37:34] It's sort of like for the iPhone 15. [37:37] Yes, you can do it sideways. [37:39] It used to be that some of like that I think the Pro Max 16 you could do it upright but now you can't. [37:45] It is so it's super primitive. [37:48] It's based on an ESP32 processor so it's not running an OS [37:52] as we would think of it, it's more like an embedded system kind of thing. [37:55] um so, okay, negatives. [37:59] It uh doesn't have a light on it. [38:01] So you have to have a light or lighting or be outside to read on it, but it's incredibly small. [38:07] I think if they put a light on it, it would be over the top actually, how great it would be, but it's still pretty good. [38:15] No touchscreen, although I don't mind that because it's got, you know, I love buttons, Stephen. [38:20] That's right. [38:20] That's right. [38:21] buttons on it. [38:22] It's got too many buttons, in fact. [38:23] It's got... [38:24] getting stuff onto it, how do you do it? [38:27] Because I had to do the micro SD card thing and I'm like, ah. [38:30] the secret with this. [38:31] I got one of these and I was gonna write a review of it and I thought I can't because all I'm gonna do is kick it because the software is so bad. [38:37] Turns out there's an open source project called Crosspoint, which is... [38:43] on my video and they were like Justin just flashed this other ROM and I'm like Is that that good? [38:48] is what you need to install on this thing. [38:50] It's so good. [38:52] It transforms this thing from a bad product into an actual good product. [38:56] And the idea of flashing firmware seems super repellent, except this is the amazing thing. [39:04] You go to the Crosspoint website, you plug in this thing to your computer via USB. [39:08] Go to Crosspoint website in Chrome, there's a button you click that says, upload the firmware. [39:15] From Chrome, it attaches via USB, flashes the firmware, and then it reboots, and now it's using CrossPoint, which is really good software designed for this thing by this open [39:26] source project. [39:27] And at that point, there are lots of ways to get books on there, uh including Wi-Fi. [39:33] You can connect it to Wi-Fi. [39:35] You can set it up if you're using the Caliber uh e-reader software on your Mac. [39:40] You can actually set it up to sync wirelessly with Caliber. [39:43] and sideload books that way. [39:45] There are lots of ways to do it once you get cross point on there. [39:48] So I highly recommend that if people want to try it. [39:50] These e-readers are really cheap. [39:51] It's like 50 bucks, 60 bucks. [39:54] The drawback is they don't light themselves, which is, I mean, you're going to need, and they're so small you can't really clip on a book light because it would just tip the whole [40:03] thing. It break it in half practically. [40:04] It's so thin and small. [40:06] side note, is the nook still a thing? [40:08] The nook e-reader? [40:09] It's out there. [40:10] Barnes and Noble is the partner for that. [40:12] I bought one to try it out last year and I returned it because I feel like it's just behind the times and um not getting the effort that Kobo is as a Kindle alternative. [40:26] It is out there and they're using Barnes and Noble as their partner for books and stuff, I um wasn't very impressed with it. [40:35] Kobo, by the way, Kobo's big partner is Walmart. [40:37] You can actually log into Kobo with your Kobo ID or your Walmart ID, which is kind of interesting. [40:42] So they also have a partnership and I assume you can buy a Kobo at Walmart. [40:47] anyway, XT Inc is really interesting and fun. [40:49] And I wonder if maybe there's a, I mean, I've heard from a lot of people who say they love it because they can like ride the bus or the train or whatever and just keep this in their [40:56] pocket and like, it's nothing. [40:57] It's like a, it's not like a credit card, but it's kind of like a credit card or something. [41:01] It's super small. [41:03] And there's a lot. [41:04] what's the difference between that and just reading it on your phone at that point? [41:08] Um, this is, this is way lighter in the battery last forever. [41:11] I mean, that's, that's, those are really the reasons why. [41:13] And it's an E ink screen, but yes, I think it is fair to say that for a large chunk of people, you might as well just read it on your phone. [41:21] Period. [41:22] I just don't look when I'm in the waiting room at the doctor's office, I read on my phone. [41:27] I do, but I'd rather not. [41:30] Like I don't, I don't like it as much as reading it on an e-reader. [41:33] I don't like the backlight. [41:35] Um, I don't like the. [41:38] the interface as well. [41:39] But um it's true that like to be interested in e-readers at all, you have to take that first step, which is maybe I want something that isn't just reading on my phone or my [41:46] iPad. [41:47] It's true. [41:48] And before we get too far away, just want to mention I have literally scrolled Instagram reels on the ink display of the BOOX PAMA II Pro, and you really haven't lived until [41:57] you've seen this egregious display. [42:00] Trying to show reels. [42:02] Yeah, exactly. [42:03] have, the refresh rate is even worse than that. [42:06] So yeah. [42:06] wild. [42:08] And then there's another one that I see often is the daylight, which is almost like an iPad competitor. [42:14] It's not really an E Ink, I believe, technology in that one. [42:18] Are you guys familiar with that? [42:19] Yeah, there's a lot out there that are, there are a of companies that are trying this thing where they're using a standard phone or tablet technology and then they do a a, a uh [42:29] layer on the screen that's like a uh glare, a glare screen reducer to make it, and then they put it in a black and white mode especially, and they make it feel like an e-reader, [42:43] but it's just a tablet at that point. [42:46] I mean, if I got one, it was a, [42:49] TCL maybe made a tablet that they said was like that. [42:52] And it was just an Android tablet with a high contrast black and white mode and a uh special screen treatment. [42:59] ah I'm really skeptical of that, although it does make me wonder if there's something in, should you just get an iPad with the anti-glare coating on it and do that? [43:11] And the answer is that would be pretty great, other than the fact that the iPad's gonna be bigger than an e-reader and its battery is gonna die after a day. [43:19] Yeah, I mean that really is like I was talking earlier about I would love to have any reader that ran read wise and could read my books on but I just feel like every time I [43:27] look I don't see it and I ultimately just end up going back to my iPad mini but I have hope you know I feel like they'll get there and I think you're right largely it's a [43:36] software problem. [43:38] I thought it'd be fun you Yeah and then do you guys want to talk about reading workflows because you read you know a lot of books Jason what. [43:45] I guess what's the method? [43:47] I guess download it and read it on your ebook, I guess. [43:50] Libby, Libby books at the library is step one. [43:54] If I hear about a book, I go and see if it's at the library and, and then, um, if it's not, or if it's going to be a long time, or if I have a deadline, cause I want to talk [44:04] about it on a podcast, I will go to the Kobo store and I'll buy it there and just load it on my Kobo. [44:10] I will admit that I also use caliber. [44:14] which gives me the ability to take DRM free ebooks or it lets me back my ebooks up. [44:22] So I'm not a book pirate, but I will pull my purchases off of my Kobo into Calibre. [44:30] So I have them without DRM and that also means they're searchable and stuff, which is great. [44:34] um On my Mac, can pull them out because at that point it's just an EPUB. [44:40] But basically the workflow is just... [44:42] um [44:44] step one Libby, step two Kobo store. [44:47] And I'll usually do that on my Mac or my iPad. [44:49] And then when I get to the Kobo, all I'm doing is a sync. [44:53] And if they're not already there, if they haven't already auto synced, I will force a sync and then they're there and I read them that way. [44:59] And that's kind of the whole workflow. [45:00] And then I guess at the end of it, is a, if it's something I'm taking notes on, there's like an export process where you plug it in and pull the notes file off so that you can [45:10] read that. [45:11] And that's not like super user friendly, but you can do it. [45:14] I'm curious, do you when and where, like because you have a goal of reading so many books in a year, do you actually schedule time? [45:20] Is there just natural time within your week that it happens? [45:23] Is there a regular time every day? [45:25] What does that look like? [45:26] Yeah, I mean, end of the day, when I go back to bed, I will read for a while until I'm too sleepy. [45:33] And then I will put the Kobo down and go to sleep. [45:37] So that's number one. [45:38] And then like, otherwise it's like, maybe if I'm really into something on the weekends, I will sit and read for a while. [45:46] then uh airplanes, airplanes. [45:52] I realized that I spend. [45:53] all this time loading movies and TV shows onto my iPad to watch on the plane. [45:58] And then even if I'm going to London or something, I'll spend most of the time just sitting there reading a book. [46:05] I'll read like multiple books on a flight sometimes if it's a long flight. [46:10] And I love it. [46:11] Like I put my AirPods in, I'm listening to music, I have my Kobo, and again, a long life, it's not gonna run out of battery. [46:18] And I will just read. [46:21] so much. [46:22] on trips, um and then downtime when I'm on a trip, especially if it's a vacation. [46:28] um Like when I go to Hawaii, for example, if I'm not studying for Jeopardy! [46:34] anyway, I will read an enormous amount of books in those situations. [46:39] But during like regular everyday life, it's mostly before I go to bed and um some on weekends is mostly when I [46:47] What kind of music do you listen to when you read? [46:49] Like lyrics? [46:50] Is there music with lyrics? [46:51] Yeah, for me, the rule is, so this is funny, because people process music in different ways. [46:55] And I hear from people who are like, don't listen to soundtracks, I don't listen to instrumentals. [46:59] And for me, that's not the barrier. [47:01] The barrier is I listen to music I'm familiar with. [47:03] I can write to music. [47:06] In fact, I write to music a lot, and it's a way for me to like charge up my writing. [47:13] And that music has lyrics, but it's music I know by heart. [47:16] And so the lyrics don't intrude. [47:18] it's just music I know by heart. [47:20] for reading, I'm like, yeah, I mean, this is one of my challenges is people come out with artists I like come out with new albums. [47:27] That is hard, because I have to find a time to listen to it where I can pay attention to it, because that I can't listen to while I'm reading, because I'll just get distracted by [47:36] listening to the music. [47:37] But once it's in a playlist that I've listened to a million times before when I'm working, at that point, that's perfect. [47:44] And I will often, I'll choose one that's sort of... [47:46] fits whatever my mood is at the time and then I'll read that way. [47:49] So, and last thing for me, when you're trying to, when you're, books you want to read, I know you split the Libby app, you get a push notification this book is available. [47:58] Do you have a place where you track books specifically that you want to read soon? [48:03] And do you track books that you have read aside from just in your Kobo reader? [48:07] Because there's lots of apps now where you can just track that stuff. [48:10] Do you do that? [48:12] I don't have an incoming tracking unless it's for like a project. [48:16] So like the incomparable, we do all of the shortlisted Hugo and Nebula nominees. [48:21] So it's basically the two short lists for sci-fi fantasy books of the year. [48:25] And I read those every year and I have done that for like 15 years now. [48:27] um And that's usually a list of like seven to 11 books. [48:33] And I do keep that because I wanna make sure that I'm... [48:36] making progress and that like, know which ones we're covering in the next episode. [48:40] So we just did an episode with three of them and I know what the next three are and I am currently reading number three of those. [48:46] And I've got a little check box that says these ones I've already read, cause I'd already read some of them, but when the nominations came out. [48:52] So that is in notes. [48:56] It's Apple notes with check boxes. [48:57] um So, that's, that's rare. [49:00] Generally I don't plan it like that. [49:02] I just, um I've got [49:04] I've got a lot of books that I bought that are just sitting on my Kobo. [49:06] I mean, that's part of it is that sometimes I buy a book and then like, so I have at any given time, five or six books just sitting there that I could read next. [49:14] And when I get to the end of the book, I sometimes, unless I've got an assignment coming, I will just kind of like shop. [49:19] um And then the, when a book comes up on Libby, you know, there's a little more tension there because it's like, well, this one you got to return in 14 days. [49:29] And then it becomes like, do I defer it or do I take it? [49:31] And if I take it, [49:33] you know, I read it and it's next in the queue, but it's kind of catch as catch can for that. [49:38] I log everything on Goodreads. [49:39] I know there are a bunch of alternatives to Goodreads out there. [49:42] I don't love Goodreads, but Goodreads does exactly what I want. [49:46] It actually kind of works like letterbox for movies for me, where like the number one reason I want to do it is I want to press uh log and type in the book and maybe give it a [49:57] star rating and then be done. [49:59] And so... [50:00] uh Goodreads does that for me and then yeah, I do the Goodreads challenge. [50:03] So I accept myself a Target and it can tell me if I'm on Target or not. [50:07] But invariably, if I'm not on Target, then I go on a vacation and then I'm way past Target. [50:12] And one of the nice things about the Hugo Awards is I usually read all the nominated novellas. [50:17] So a little bit shorter and those all count. [50:20] So in the summer when I'm reading the awards fiction, will get a bunch of... [50:27] Those aren't the thousand page books. [50:28] So those ones go fast and that's kind of nice. [50:31] I can load up uh my book count that way, lard that up a little bit. [50:35] And this year, it's not gonna be a problem because of all those children's books. [50:38] I logged all those too. [50:40] So those all count. [50:42] I have the most antiquated method of my list. [50:45] So David, I want to hear if I beat yours too. [50:48] How do you keep track, David, of your books you want to read or have read? [50:50] have a list. [50:51] I do have a uh pile of books that I've bought and a lot of times the resource is the incomparable podcast because Jason does such a good job covering it. [51:00] I don't read all the Nebula nominees, but you guys always pick one or two and you describe them enough to know which ones will resonate with me. [51:09] um so I get those and I've got those. [51:12] I do a lot of fiction on audiobook, uh you know, because that's what I do when I'm gardening or driving. [51:18] like listen to fiction. [51:20] For nonfiction books, I'm an aggressive user of Readwise service. [51:27] You can highlight them and then it gives you spaced repetition on things you've read. [51:32] For a nonfiction book, I take it little more seriously. [51:36] But uh fiction, I just get collections from friends and podcasts and I have favorite authors. [51:44] When I'm ready to read a fiction book, I look at my little queue and pick one. [51:49] So this is the most ridiculous method, probably the least Mac Power users like. [51:53] When I hear about a book I want to read, I'll go to the Apple Books app and mark want to read. [51:59] I'll mark that so then I have one place that sings across my Apple devices of books I want to read. [52:04] But when I actually want to get the book to read it, I buy the physical book, I have it shipped to my house, and then my nightstand is my queue. [52:11] I have like three or four books stacked up. [52:14] The top book is the one I'm currently reading, and then sometimes... [52:17] I'm also curious how you guys do this. [52:19] If you read simultaneously multiple books at the same time. [52:23] I'm typically a completionist. [52:24] I have to finish one book before I start the next. [52:26] But I've been reading The Body Keeps the Score for like the last year. [52:31] And it's like a heavy book at times. [52:32] And so like I've read a lot of it, but then I also went to your Body on Art or your Brain on Art, excuse me, book. [52:38] And so I'll read a couple of chapters of that. [52:40] So my nightstand is my cue and it's pretty antiquated. [52:44] It's very analog. [52:46] Good for you, I guess. [52:47] I would say, if you're buying the books, especially if you're buying on Amazon, you could just add them to your Amazon card for later and do it that way. [52:55] but sometimes I will also both buy the physical book and buy the digital Apple book version because if I'm ever traveling, if I want to keep reading it, I will literally [53:07] jump. [53:08] And because I don't have an e-reader that I really love right now and that I have with me, I'll use my Apple devices when I travel if I read. [53:16] And so it's a pretty broken system, but it's working for me. [53:19] fine. [53:20] Not everybody has to do everything the same way. [53:21] I think that's the important thing. [53:23] or are you complete a book and then go to the next? [53:26] Complete a fiction book before I go on to the next one uh Nonfiction books and me have a complicated relationship. [53:32] I will very easily skip large swaths or stop one midstream and At any time I've got and I also like to read classics. [53:40] I've been on an epic tetus cake the last six months So I've got a bunch of books in process but for fiction books I have to read one to the end because then I start getting [53:50] confused because I like a lot of like a space opera science fiction stuff and [53:55] Like is this the galaxy where they have time travel or is this the one where they, you know, you just forget. [54:00] Yeah, yeah. [54:01] one of the things I appreciated when Mike and Gray would do book episodes of Cortex and they would talk about nonfiction books. [54:09] It helped give me permission to sometimes start a nonfiction book and when I feel like I've gotten the idea and the author is just kind of rehashing it 15 different ways, like [54:18] it's okay to not finish that book. [54:20] it's funny that you mentioned that. [54:23] I have done enough, I've worked enough in publishing with magazines and also knowing enough authors and I have done some book proposals over the years. [54:33] I know enough that with non-fiction, I can often see what the pitch was and see that the pitch was this and the editor was like, it needs to be wider and. [54:46] They're like, okay, but that's not really the core of what I'm doing. [54:49] But I widen it and you can see sometimes that it's like to get this to book length. [54:53] I'm going to take this idea and iterate on it a couple of times. [54:56] Sometimes you can see that in books. [54:58] In fact, a book that I highly recommend, which is Apple in China. [55:03] um I can see the outline in Apple in China. [55:06] And like, there's a lot in that book that is about like the very earliest days of Apple manufacturing and like. [55:14] It sets the stage pretty well, but it's not what the book's about. [55:19] And I thought, I see what's happening here. [55:22] I see what this book is doing. [55:23] And I think that's actually, you did a great tip there, which is like, there are a whole class of nonfiction books where the idea is there's an idea to be gleaned. [55:32] And a lot of times the book is going to reiterate that idea in different ways, in different shapes until you get it. [55:41] And it's okay to say, okay, I get it. [55:44] You [55:48] I'm just not a fan of a lot of the productivity slop out there, you know, and, and, and a lot of it you'll look at, you're like, this is an extended blog post turned into a book. [55:56] And it was, [55:58] post and somebody said you should pitch that as a nonfiction book. [56:01] And the editor said, here's how we stretch that out into a book. [56:04] And as the reader, you are not obligated to read it. [56:08] and that was one example. [56:10] Oh, I'm sorry. [56:11] That's one of the examples that I use as a book that I love, but actually honestly never finished, was the book Range by David Epstein, because he talks about generalists and he [56:22] talks about if you have multiple interests and you pursue them, like it's okay. [56:26] Like being a jack of all trades isn't a bad thing. [56:28] And for someone like me, who had interest in music and tech and podcasts and video, that gave me permission to like do all these things. [56:35] And he talks about how... [56:36] Those generals sometimes make better leaders and better troubleshooters and problem solvers and that was like the first three chapters and as I kept reading I was like, okay [56:43] I think I think I got it and I read a little more and I was like I think I'm good Such put it down still recommend and it's a great book for those You know who need that kind of [56:53] permission like I did but I didn't need to finish it. [56:55] I got it [56:56] Jason I need to make a decision because I am actually interested in trying to go back to an e-reader for some things uh I think I'm giving up on the dream of an e-reader that [57:08] gives me my readwise highlights and my my RSS feeds so it sounds to me like you recommend Kobo at this point and I've got a big library uh of E pubs that I have that are you know, [57:23] I can put in any device. [57:24] So I guess Kobo's the answer [57:26] Yeah, I think, uh look at the Cobra Libre Color. [57:29] uh It is the one that I'm using right now. [57:33] I think it's really good. [57:35] If you want to do some article reading on it, if you're thinking like, what I do is it's long form articles where it's literally that moment. [57:42] I do a lot of reading on my iPad in the morning, but like, I will run into an article on the web during the day and I'll be like, you know, [57:52] happy for you or sorry that happened but I ain't reading that. [57:54] It's that moment of like, um my God, this article is so long. [57:59] I will send it to Instapaper and it then goes to my Kobo where later I can say, okay, I'm gonna dive into that long article. [58:08] uh So that gets you at least some web content that you can put there if there's something you're like, I wanna save this for later, this is too much. [58:15] And then I highly recommend Calibre, which is open source. [58:20] I think it's open source. [58:21] looks like one of the first Mac apps to be ported from Unix in the 2000s. [58:27] It's like a really rickety interface. [58:30] Yeah, but what it's good at is, especially for Kobo, is Kobo supports an enhanced version of EPUB that does some nice things on Kobos. [58:40] And Calibur has a Kobo plugin and will convert all EPUBs to what are called keypubs on the fly when it syncs it to your Kobo. [58:48] And so they'll end up [58:49] reading better on the Kobo, which is really nice. [58:51] And then that's also, there's a plugin called Obok, which I guess is technically illegal, Kobo spelled backward, but it'll do the thing where you can basically take any of the [59:00] books that you bought on your Kobo and you can put them back in caliber so that you've got a backup copy of it for later, which I do like to do, even though it's not strictly [59:09] necessary or legal. [59:10] I think it's fair use of a thing that I bought. [59:12] It's telling that the Calibre website on the homepage has a 15-inch G4, I think, a MacBook Pro or something like that with the SuperDrive in the front. [59:20] thing about Calibre is that it gets updated all the time, like literally all the time. [59:23] There is not a moment that every launch I do of that app, it says there's an update. [59:28] Like it's amazing, but it's also like, it feels like it's straight out of like 2004. [59:35] Workflow wise though, A, what's your current RSS reader? [59:39] And B, if you come across web content like from Apple News or something, do you send that to Instapaper or how do you capture that to read somewhere else? [59:48] something in Apple News, I'll probably just read it uh during the day and then move on with my life. [59:52] uh I wrote about this on Six Colors a little bit. [59:56] My RSS flow is that I only read in the morning uh and I am using ReadKit on my iPad to do that. [60:04] ReadKit is a RSS reader that works for me. [60:07] It works with Feedbin. [60:08] I am a Feedbin subscriber. [60:10] Which means technically I can also send articles to Feedbin and they show up in my RSS reader the next morning. [60:16] but I mostly don't do that. [60:18] And um recently what I did is I realized that I felt overwhelmed because I had this combination of a bunch of, I get a bunch of newsletters and I forward them all to feed [60:26] bins. [60:26] my newsletters show up in my RSS reader, but then I realized I was also subscribing to these sites that have like eight posts in a day or 12 posts in a day. [60:35] And they were overwhelming. [60:36] Like there's the newsletter that I really care about. [60:39] And then it's interspersed with like 10 little posts that I kind of collectively care about. [60:44] So I, [60:45] actually uh now have a script that runs every morning at 6.30 in the morning. [60:52] And it takes the contents of these RSS feeds that I like that have been posted in the last day and turns them into a list of links in an RSS feed that I subscribe to. [61:03] So instead of having like random article, random article, my newsletter, random article, random article, a newsletter I care about random article, I have the two newsletters. [61:12] And then I have a thing that's like, here are your tech links. [61:14] here are your pop culture links as items. [61:18] And those items are just a list of links. [61:20] um But that was, for me, that was like a key finding of like, I see what I am overwhelmed by here is like, I'm trying to mix and match and the interface isn't really well suited [61:34] for that. [61:35] Now what I don't wanna do is like go through a like, now let's read this folder and now let's read this folder. [61:40] I wanted like a super simplified interface. [61:42] And so that's... [61:43] I've been doing that for a couple weeks now and I actually really like it. [61:46] I think that's worked out pretty well. [61:48] And I may visit Claude Code and try to make it a little more sophisticated, but um for now it is, you know, it's a Python script that runs once a day and it is, it has simplified my [62:01] morning reading a little bit in ReadKit. [62:04] So it's almost like a menu more than it's a reading list. [62:07] I mean, you could even argue that it's kind of like I'm building a UI on top of the existing UI where it's like, want another layer, is, I wanna see my newsletters and these [62:19] like RSS categories interspersed together at the same level. [62:24] And like somebody could write an app that does that, right? [62:26] But like, I can't. [62:28] So instead I hacked RSS to do it for me where I can just say, like you can put all the links from... [62:34] 9to5Mac and Mac Stories and Mac Rumors and the blogs I read about tech, you can put them all in one item and make that item at the same level as my newsletters. [62:48] Because I realize I only really do read at that level once a day. [62:52] And so what I really want is a snapshot of what's going on at 630 in the [62:56] You can actually, I mean we just talked about AI tools on last episode, me and David, and one of things I've used Claude Cowork for is I've connected FastMail, which now has a [63:06] first-party MCP server, and if you do that, you can do exactly what you're saying and create a scheduled task where Claude Cowork looks at all your newsletters and does exactly [63:16] that. [63:16] Either creates a list of links and or like summaries of this with links to the newsletter, and I also can use it now to search. [63:23] So if I say, what were the top links shared in the pod news newsletter? [63:27] can just like, Claude can just tell me. [63:29] Like I don't even have to go to the email. [63:31] That's pretty cool. [63:32] uh I was also going to say, just to, I use a shortcut for something. [63:36] I just want to share with you, Jason, because you're talking about like aggregating news once a day. [63:39] I do a daily show for some members about the tech news and I've created a shortcut that has a bunch of RSS feeds, like you're saying. [63:48] And it basically takes all the articles shared for today, published data is today. [63:53] gives those to AI, tells AI only take unique stories, not ignore duplicates. [64:00] But if a story is covered across multiple sources, consider it more important. [64:05] And so it will identify the top stories of the day with that metric. [64:09] And then it shows me a list of 10 stories in a Choose From menu in the shortcut. [64:13] I select five stories, and then it pulls the full body text of that article, sends it through AI to summarize it, and now I have a top five tech news story of the day. [64:22] script that I can just read down and I create the show. [64:25] So it's... [64:25] is not that far off from what I'm trying to do with my tech firehose, uh where it's way too many links. [64:33] And I do actually want a little bit of LLM work to kind of group them and dedupe them and rank them. [64:40] That's really smart. [64:41] I like it. [64:42] There's just a lot of ways to do that now and the trick is to give it enough context to know your taste and that just takes some time. [64:52] Yeah, yeah. [64:53] All right, we opened the can of worms of AI. [64:55] talk about a little bit. [64:56] Jason, you've done something interesting with your newsletter. [64:58] Tell us about [64:59] Yeah, so I have a newsletter for Six Colors members that is based the way it works, because I did it myself. [65:09] So much of Six Colors is, there's probably a tool that does this now, but a lot of it was built before those tools existed, so I just did it myself. [65:17] um And I decided that I wanted a newsletter that went out automatically, um and I'm not on. [65:26] Substack or any of these newsletter platforms. [65:27] I'm just using WordPress and there are plugins that'll do it But you know, it's that you you both will know this feeling which is I Could take something on this off the shelf. [65:37] It doesn't do it the way I want to do it I want to do it my way and so I Wrote a Python script by hand with this is before the AI coding era and I that looks at my RSS feed for [65:51] members it [65:54] It sees if I posted something of substance on that day, it's designed to run every day. [66:01] And so there's a bunch of checks about like, is there a full post or a member post or like a little link post or a link to a podcast does not cross the threshold. [66:11] And if there is, it generates a newsletter. [66:15] Now it's more complicated, right? [66:16] If there is on a certain day, it actually has to go back in the RSS feed to previous days to find when the last time [66:23] something triggered it so that it doesn't replay things from the past or miss things like a little link post that happened yesterday that otherwise would have been dropped [66:30] entirely. [66:31] If there was no newsletter yesterday, it needs to know so that it includes the content from yesterday as well as today. [66:37] So there's a lot of logic going on there in Python to do all of that based on the RSS feed fires at 5 p.m. [66:43] or 4 45 p.m. [66:45] Pacific. [66:46] And then there's a bunch of other stuff in there like if there are certain tags or if it's above a certain length, my mail provider will not support [66:52] want to items above a certain character count. [66:55] So I have a bunch of like logic that's like, if it's too big, it finds the little read more post text that's in there and cuts it there and then insert something that says, this [67:06] is too big for the newsletter, click to read it on Six Colors. [67:08] There's a lot and I iterated over months on this thing, but um it does work and it's a subscriber benefit. [67:17] so people, cause what I found with Six Colors is, [67:20] I want to meet people where they are, especially if they're paying me as a member. [67:23] So like if they want to read on the web, they can read on the web. [67:26] If they want to read an RSS, they can read an RSS. [67:29] And I thought with the rise of Substack and things that are like it, clearly there is a desire among some audiences to read it in email. [67:37] And that's absolutely been the case. [67:38] I hear from people who are like, I'm so glad that you do this email because I don't visit the site every day and I don't expect them to. [67:43] And they're not doing RSS for whatever reason, or maybe like me. [67:47] they find value in instead of having like individual posts kind of like trickle through that when something happens, because otherwise there's no newsletter, at the end of the [67:56] day, Jason sends me a newsletter with what happened that day. [67:59] And so that's built up over time. [68:02] It's got little bits of logic for like where the links go. [68:05] uh if there's like multiple links to podcasts that have been posted, they get kind of concatenated together into a podcast section. [68:13] It's really nice. [68:14] But. [68:15] And I've been doing that for, I don't even know how long, a couple of years now. [68:18] I'm very happy with it. [68:19] think it's a really nice product that yes, I have kind of replicated Substack uh backward from my blog, which is how I wanted to do it. [68:26] I don't think of the newsletter first. [68:27] I think of the site first, and then the newsletter is a summation of what's happened on the site. [68:32] But it gets me what I think people want. [68:35] Next step though is, in terms of coming to people where they are, one of the most popular things, we did it accidentally, but one of the most popular things [68:45] in our membership for Six Colors is that Dan Moran and I do a podcast every week that's just for members. [68:52] And we did it, like I said, kind of on a lark. [68:54] It's like, let's see what people think, because we have a lot of following from podcasts. [68:58] And what we were selling people was a website with words written on it. [69:02] And it turns out that a lot of those people are, a lot of them are members really are very uh podcast forward at least. [69:09] And they love the podcast. [69:12] So I realized now that I have a subs... [69:15] that is more podcast forward. [69:18] So I had this thought, was, what if I could make a podcast out of the newsletter, right? [69:26] And what I knew immediately from personal experience and friends' experiences, there was no way I was gonna sit down. [69:33] Like, I don't even wanna put the newsletter together by hand every day. [69:37] I wanted to spend time. [69:38] writing a script that would auto-generate the newsletter wherever I was, whatever I was doing, I didn't have to worry about it, the newsletter got put out. [69:46] I wanted an automatic podcast of basically my newsletter. [69:50] How would I do that? [69:52] And so now we do live in the AI era. [69:55] So I used my friend Claude and we looked at my newsletter script and we walked through, and it was Claude Co-Work, I think to begin with. [70:03] um And we... [70:06] had this, you I had this dialogue with Claude where basically I'm saying, okay, here's this newsletter. [70:12] I want to do a version of this as a podcast. [70:14] Um, and we had to walk through a bunch of steps, right? [70:18] So it's like, what's the best available text to speech API? [70:23] Cause I'm not going to have somebody read this. [70:25] A computer needs to read this, but I want it to sound good. [70:28] And we went through a bunch of iterations. [70:30] actually, I don't, I don't know if you guys have talked about, it's been a past sponsor of mine elsewhere. [70:34] There's a service called listen later. [70:36] which is kind of like Instapaper, but it does text-to-speech and puts it in a podcast feed instead. [70:42] So you save an article and it reads it to you in a podcast feed. [70:44] It's very clever. [70:45] I was so frustrated with all these different text-to-speech APIs. [70:49] I finally reached out to the guy who does listen later and I was like, what do you do here? [70:53] And he gave me some great advice. [70:54] It turns out actually that if you use the most modern OpenAI API for text-to-speech, it uses an LLM and it like, [71:06] doesn't read all the words. [71:08] It's unbelievable. [71:09] Like why would, what? [71:10] And he was like, yeah, don't do that. [71:13] Use the older one. [71:14] The voices aren't quite as good, but it's deterministic. [71:17] It's like, it will read all the words you give it. [71:20] So that's what I started to do. [71:24] And like I experimented with Googles and OpenAIs. [71:27] And then I ended up, I ended up back at OpenAI. [71:30] with the more primitive text-to-speech engines. [71:32] That was like step one. [71:34] Then you're shopping for voices and they're like, well, there's five voices at OpenAI that are a decent quality. [71:39] I picked two that I thought were really good and then there were three others that I was like, these are okay, but I don't think I'm going to go with them. [71:46] um I'm doing that and then I'm also going back and forth with Cloud Cowork on like, want to replicate the logic of the newsletter. [71:52] I only want to put out a podcast if it has those same triggers and we want to look back in time. [71:57] So we were really using MyScript as the basis, but modifying it to have a place where it goes out to the text-to-speech engine. [72:04] Now, again, you start to iterate and you realize things like, um if it's a link post, I should probably say where the link is going to. [72:13] So there's a bunch of logic for like, if it's a link post, say this is a link to the verge.com ah and how does that work? [72:21] And do I want to have links to the podcast in there? [72:24] I don't, because this is a podcast. [72:27] If they want to listen to the podcast, they can listen to that podcast. [72:29] probably do. [72:31] So it built similarly, but this time kind of like working with my script as the base and with Claude of like building up how you do text to speech. [72:39] And then a bunch of stuff like it turns out that you can't give too much speech to the text to speech API. [72:44] So you have to break it up into little bits every few paragraphs. [72:47] But it turns out that some thing weird about text to speech is like all the audio comes back at different volumes. [72:52] So you have to normalize everything to get it to be the same volume. [72:54] Cause it's like a loud paragraph and then a quiet paragraph. [72:57] like, well, that's no good. [72:58] I generated so many terrible podcasts. [73:00] And then it's like, well, I want chapter markers. [73:02] we built a, you know, had Claude build me a thing that not normalizes everything, but then it puts chapter markers between each article. [73:09] Cause I want this to be a good podcast. [73:12] I decided, and I would listen to these and I would be like, this still doesn't do it. [73:17] So a lot of posts, [73:18] we block quote other people's content. [73:20] We like do a quote and then we comment on it. [73:23] And I was like, how do you do that in audio? [73:25] So what I did is I went back to those three voices that I didn't think were quite as good. [73:29] And block quotes are read by those three voices and they just randomly rotate. [73:33] But it means that when you're reading a story, a voice is reading you the story and then the quote is read by somebody else, a different voice. [73:39] And then it goes back to the original voice. [73:40] And I'm like, that's how you do that in audio. [73:42] So it's been a lot of iteration like that. [73:44] And there's still stuff that's missing like hyperlinks, like [73:47] Normal hyperlinks that go places, there's really no way to do that in audio without it breaking the flow of the writing. [73:54] I do have it read footnotes out loud and it actually stops at the footnote and says, begin footnote, reads the footnote and then says end footnote. [74:04] Because I thought I kind of need to have the footnotes in there, reading them at the bottom out of context doesn't make any sense in audio. [74:09] So we're gonna push those in, but I'm not gonna read hyperlinks out loud. [74:12] That's too, it's a bridge too far. [74:15] And um [74:16] And then the last, and like a lot of details like, um, text to speech engine, can feed it HTML. [74:21] You can say this is a subhead. [74:23] It doesn't read them right. [74:24] So I ended up inserting, like, if you find a subhead, I want this much audio. [74:29] I want the silence before it and after it. [74:31] So it feels like there's an actual pause. [74:33] So it turns out there's a lot of engineering that goes into like art direction or whatever uh of, of this podcast to get it to sound like it's actually decent. [74:44] And then the last one was Glenn Fleischman writes a how-to article for me every Monday. [74:48] And a lot of times he's got like um little snippets of code, like from the terminal. [74:53] And I ran one of those through and it was like the thing lost its mind. [74:57] Cause it's trying to read terminal commands as sentences, which just no. [75:03] So, uh so again, I had to spend some time with Claude code and we like worked on it to like, [75:09] Basically what I said was, because so much of this AI stuff is you're the project manager. [75:13] And so you're trying to define what the features are and what the behavior is, and then asking it to come up with the code. [75:17] And in that case, it was, we need a code mode where if something is put in code font, the way it's sent to the TTS engine has to completely change. [75:28] And like literally we need to map so that if there's a backslash, it says the word backslash only in that mode. [75:36] And it's not perfect. [75:38] But like, it sounds like what a person would be if, would say if they were forced to read a terminal command out loud. [75:46] Obviously nobody is going to enter in a terminal command based on something they hear in a podcast, but at least you get the context of like type sudo, know, or sudo, you know, [75:58] backslash period, whatever it is, like it sounds like code font in your ears. [76:05] So that's the story is basically I replicated [76:08] my newsletter script, but it turns out that in going to an audio version, uh there was an enormous number of new creative decisions that needed to be made to make it sound decent. [76:19] And I got to say, I'm really proud of it. [76:21] I think it sounds pretty good. [76:22] uh I was unsure whether people would be, I tested it on some of my members. [76:27] uh Like, what's the, is this usable? [76:30] Cause I didn't want to go down this path if it was not usable. [76:33] And it turns out that my intuition was right. [76:36] There are a lot of people, [76:37] who are just not gonna read the newsletter or the RSS feed, but who have a lot of podcast time. [76:42] And the feedback for those people has been really good. [76:45] Obviously, it's the same content that's everywhere else that we do it, but in a format that like, and I really like the fact that I'm using some good voices, I'm alternating the [76:54] voices per story. [76:55] So it's not the same voice for every story. [76:57] They sort of go, there's a male voice and a female voice and they kind of alternate female, male, female, male, depending on how many stories there are. [77:04] I love the... [77:05] Additional voices for block quotes was a good one. [77:08] The code thing was a good addition. [77:09] So it's in a pretty good place. [77:11] I have no doubt that one of these days somebody is going to say, did you hear the latest one? [77:14] It's really bad. [77:15] And I'm going to be like, boy, I got to fix that. [77:18] But um yeah. [77:20] 11 labs on your voice and have it be in your voice? [77:23] I did, ah the initial conception of this was that I was like, hey, Dan, Glenn, you open to the idea that we might do some voice cloning and have our cloned voices read it. [77:36] And let me tell you, so I did a test. [77:38] It's terrible. [77:40] That was my answer is it's so bad. [77:42] It sounds worse than the synthetic voices. [77:45] It doesn't really sound like me, but it sounds enough like me to be creepy, but also not very good. [77:51] And so like, I'm open to the, I'm kind of open to the idea that maybe that would be a future direction, although I don't think it's necessary. [78:01] I kind of like that it's different. [78:03] In fact, you know, I like that it's appreciably different. [78:07] That's one of the reasons why I have, even though most of the contributors to Six Colors are men, not all, but most, I put the female voice at the front because I think it's [78:17] actually good to say this is not. [78:19] a person who wrote the article, it is a robot one and not, you know, it's, we're not trying to replicate my voice or Glenn's voice or John Maltz's voice or Shelley Brisbane's [78:28] voice. [78:28] We're not trying to do that. [78:30] I'm open to the possibility that we might do that in the future if they were really good, but I'm really skeptical if that will happen. [78:37] Can I get your and? [78:39] even if they got it really good, I'd be a little repelled by it because I've been listening to you for years and I know your inflection and I would notice. [78:46] was what I thought. [78:48] I thought I was going to be open to it. [78:49] And then I heard it I was like, no, like it was a hard no, no way. [78:54] live reactions to my clone voice because there are some times that I do this [79:11] Okay, the cadence is wrong, but it sounds like you. [79:14] isn't perfect, but I mean, what do think, Jason? [79:17] yeah. [79:18] I also, will say you are reading, mean, or your synthetic voice is reading a kind of like news headline script. [79:25] One of the challenges with what I write is it's very voicey a lot of times on Six Colors and like, and you know, what John Moultz writes is extremely voicey. [79:36] And it's like, there's no way, like what I found is that those things are really good. [79:41] In fact, a lot of these TTS engines, including the 11 lab and [79:45] Labs clones, one of the contexts is like, what is it doing? [79:50] Is it soothing? [79:51] Is it news headlines? [79:52] like news headlines is a speaking style that I think it actually can emulate pretty well. [79:59] But once you're like in blog post land and it's very much personal voice, it really falls apart. [80:04] So I'm not inclined to do it, but I'm open. [80:06] It was actually the initial idea. [80:09] And then I just, I was like, no, that's not going to work. [80:11] Let's go the other way. [80:12] Can we pivot and find some decent. [80:14] synthesized voices. [80:15] And that's what I'm optimistic about is that the synthesized voices are really good, even at weird voicey stuff. [80:22] You can, I'm amazed at they read these sentences, like the John Moultz writes that are jokes. [80:28] And you're like, how's it going to get it? [80:29] And it doesn't always get it, but there are moments where I'm like, it got the cadence exactly right of what this sentence is supposed to sound like. [80:36] And I think that the voice clones are, are, going to be behind cause they're not being tuned because they're, they're one offs. [80:43] Whereas these core voices that are, there are only three or four of them are much more sophisticated. [80:50] we're talking about podcasting. [80:51] So let's talk about more podcasting and more power users Gonna get Jason's thoughts too on some video podcasts So we want to thank our sponsors Squarespace fundera and one password [81:00] and thank you to our members who support us directly We're go record more power users you get access to that You also can watch the video of it for more power users and we got [81:08] another bonus episode coming very soon So thanks for listening. [81:11] We'll catch you next time  📄 **Full text:** ![[Full Document Contents/Articles/eReaders, Kindle, Kobo, and Workflows With Jason Snell.md|eReaders, Kindle, Kobo, and Workflows With Jason Snell by YouTube]] ## Highlights - audience. Just kind of a check in on the state of ebooks and some of our workflows and what we're doing with them and you're the guy, man. Okay, well, I'm happy to be that guy. That is one of the areas where I'm an outlier in my specialty area, but I'm interested in the subject and I use the product. So, you know, one of the beauties of going out on your own is you can sort of decide what you want to cover to a certain extent. so I get, I actually get a lot, this will probably come up. I get a lot of questions from people about these large format e-readers where you can have a pen and you can take notes. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krbphqcrp9g1cx2kr903fpm1)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - And I don't. I'm not interested in that category, so I have no opinions about it. Like, large e-readers and writing with a pen on an e-reader, I just don't care. Perfectly valid category, they're trying to find more users for this, for e-readers in general. think getting people to use it as a note-taking device and have it be kind of e-paper is cool and all, but I'm not. I have the luxury of picking my spots, and that is not a spot I'm interested in picking, so I focus on reading, the reading part of readers. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krbphqcz6s31ddyj1znkrqfp)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - I'm just reading a book at that point. I, again, doesn't have to be the approach for everybody, but that's why I like it is that it doesn't do anything else. And I actually go all the way to the analog spectrum. So when I read books, I buy the physical book and I have it shipped to my house and I read the tree in my hands. And one of the things I've wanted to use e-readers for, and maybe by the end of this conversation I'll try a different one, is for like highlighting passages or saving parts ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krbphqe2tmkve6jhkgkmm3dn)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - So there are lots of great uses of this sort of thing. And that's why I've kind of adopted it. I'm a big would like to talk about the ecosystems because I am a bit out of touch. I rage quit Kindle when they said they wouldn't let me download the books anymore. I've been buying books from Kobo, but I have not bought a reader from them. I just read them on my phone. don't know, Jason, what is out there now if someone wants to get into eBooks? Well, a lot of people are on Kindle and I hear that when I recommend other readers that are not Amazon's readers. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krbphqf7md11fdwwv9869v86)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - That one is the sweet spot for me. I think my wife is using a Kobo Sage, which is a little bit larger. uh And so it's more like a trade paperback instead of a paperback, I guess. Yeah, I think they're going to replace it with something. This is what concerns me is that I worry about what Kobo is doing in terms of their e-reader priorities. I think that um the Libra is the sweet spot right now if you're looking for something other than a Kindle. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krbphqgnytsy91xsw7fv9evt)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - But I, to be honest, Browsing through web pages on an e-reader is no fun and the Libby app is great. So if you're on an iPhone or iPad or whatever, uh the Libby app is awesome and then you can just send those to your device and read a book. It's really great. also shout out the Hoopla app just because my wife uses this like the heck out of Hoopla like any anytime she hears a book recommendation she'll just go directly to the Hoopla app ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krbphqj97vawr94tvn3net9q)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - But like I'm intrigued by that kind of idea, but that requires extensibility that Kobo and Kindle are never gonna give me. So an Android e-reader that's a little more extensible, but pretty easy to use uh would be really nice. I just don't know if there are enough people in that market, all the books is trying. Books is the company that's... that's trying there. That's been my white whale. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krbphqn2ny5d5jmpap3rfwr2)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - it's better, but the actual like, what you have is what they give you. And that's all you get. You can't install an extra thing on a cobalt or a Kindle. It's just not what they want you to do. So my white whale is a e-reader that also runs the read wise reader, which exists in Android. and, and I got, I bought one of the books readers and I installed it and the experience was terrible. And I realized, yeah. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krbphqx970pbnrvvnmyb6k14)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - listening to the music. But once it's in a playlist that I've listened to a million times before when I'm working, at that point, that's perfect. And I will often, I'll choose one that's sort of... fits whatever my mood is at the time and then I'll read that way. So, and last thing for me, when you're trying to, when you're, books you want to read, I know you split the Libby app, you get a push notification this book is available. Do you have a place where you track books specifically that you want to read soon? ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krbphr90gycz4x1gbpzt3ev8)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted - For a nonfiction book, I take it little more seriously. But uh fiction, I just get collections from friends and podcasts and I have favorite authors. When I'm ready to read a fiction book, I look at my little queue and pick one. So this is the most ridiculous method, probably the least Mac Power users like. When I hear about a book I want to read, I'll go to the Apple Books app and mark want to read. I'll mark that so then I have one place that sings across my Apple devices of books I want to read. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01krbphrdxggqg25xfjqfqwm43)) - Tags: 👻 ai highlighted