Kathryn Krick Ignite Revival or False Fire

Kathryn Krick: Ignite Revival or False Fire? ![rw-book-cover](https://d34adp677peecb.cloudfront.net/static/images/article3.5c705a01b476.png) 🔗 **Source:** [Kathryn Krick: Ignite Revival or False Fire?]() > [!note]+ Document Notes > # 🏷️ Title: Kathryn Krick: Ignite Revival or False Fire? > > > **Current-agent capture.** The transcript is saved, but the full deep-read analysis is still pending (current-agent mode). The active Codex task must add the notes, topic tags, master highlights, and Reader-native inline highlights before this document is complete. > > > --- >  ## Full Transcript [00:00] Hey everybody, welcome back to the [00:01] wonderful world of remnant radio. My [00:02] name is Joshua Lewis and today I'm [00:04] joined with the [00:06] famous and yet absent Michael Rountree. [00:10] It's going to be an exciting program. [00:11] We're going to be talking about [00:12] Katherine Crick. If you don't know, [00:14] Katherine has been [00:16] on the interwebs here for quite a while. [00:19] We've done a recent video. I say recent, [00:22] was it a year or two years ago Michael? [00:24] Where we first kind of made aware of [00:26] her. People have been asking us to do [00:27] content on her for over a year now and [00:30] with the recent kind of [00:32] hoopla around a recent book signing [00:34] where deliverances were taking place, [00:37] people have ran to the internet to make [00:39] more response videos. And instead of [00:41] making a carbon copy episode of those [00:44] other episodes where we're talking about [00:45] what's taking place at the book signing, [00:47] we thought, "Hey, why don't we actually [00:48] examine what's going on in the book [00:51] itself?" So, we have scraped the book, [00:55] worked through it, read through it, [00:56] tried to get the most convincing [00:58] passages of that book to show you I [01:01] think once again that Katherine is [01:03] setting up what would look like a cult [01:05] to me. We've done another video like I [01:08] said on Katherine [01:09] and that was the conclusion we came to [01:11] then. That she is very much insistent on [01:14] staying submitted to the leader who's [01:16] been placed over you [01:18] and not to [01:20] tolerate any kind of gossip or slander [01:22] toward that leader. We have video after [01:25] video of people essentially bowing down [01:27] to her on stage and thanking her for [01:30] being their spiritual mother and [01:32] attributing to her scripture verses that [01:34] are only given to Jesus. That she first [01:36] loved them so that they can you know, in [01:38] response love her. [01:40] Anyway, it's some pretty gross stuff, [01:42] but today we're tackling the book and [01:44] the book only. But without further ado, [01:45] I want to toss it over to my partner in [01:47] crime, Michael Rountree. You guys [01:48] haven't heard from him in a hot minute [01:51] and I'm excited to have him back on the [01:52] program. Michael, you were supposed to [01:54] be on next week but I called you out of [01:56] retirement for this video. Thanks for [01:58] jumping on, buddy. [02:00] >> Yeah, absolutely. Hey guys, good to see [02:02] you again, even though I can't see you [02:03] at all. So, uh it's been a great [02:05] sabbatical 3 months. I'm feeling great, [02:08] feeling ready to get back get back into [02:09] the swing of things. [02:11] Uh was [02:14] next week with Remnant, but uh he called [02:16] me at the last minute, started screaming [02:19] and cussing at me, [02:20] telling me that I'd I'd better join him [02:23] for this episode cuz he needed me. So, [02:25] yeah, actually he didn't cuss or nor did [02:27] he scream, but uh [02:29] he did need [clears throat] me. Uh [02:30] Miller, apparently it's Miller's [02:32] anniversary today. So, [02:34] uh [02:35] so I'm hopping on a week early. So, it's [02:38] good to be with you guys and uh I'm [02:40] going to talk a little bit about [02:41] Katherine Krick. So, [02:43] uh I think it's going to be a good [02:45] episode. Josh, uh how do you want to [02:46] start this episode out? [02:49] >> Well, uh [02:51] I'd probably want to start off just [02:52] reminding people there's so much going [02:53] on at Remnant here. Uh we had a whole [02:55] bunch of technical difficulties today. [02:57] So, Christina, if you're watching in [02:58] this in the back end and you're like, [02:59] "Hey, why didn't you play the video for [03:00] the conference?" It's because Michael [03:02] Rountree hasn't used the internet since [03:04] he's been on sabbatical and he forgot [03:05] how to do it. [03:07] >> So, we spent uh we're we're a little bit [03:10] late to the broadcast today uh because [03:11] we were doing all the technical [03:12] difficulties of getting him back on the [03:14] internet. Um he's still turning his own [03:17] butter there in Oklahoma City. So, we're [03:19] trying to trying to help him uh figure [03:21] out how uh internet works. So, uh just [03:24] uh from word of mouth here uh on August [03:27] 16th, the early bird promo code for the [03:29] conference is going to expire. So, I [03:31] would encourage people if you're out [03:32] there and you want to go to the [03:33] conference, there is a discount [03:34] available only for the next 2 weeks. So, [03:37] I'd encourage you go to the [03:38] remnantradio.com, subscribe to the [03:39] newsletter, and you'll get the promo [03:41] code that'll be good through August [03:43] 16th. We're going to continue to do [03:44] registration for the conference. So, if [03:45] you're out there and you're like, "Well, [03:46] I I definitely still want to go to the [03:47] conference. I just want to pay full pay [03:50] pay price." Cool. Buy your ticket after [03:52] August 16th. You're totally able to do [03:54] that. Uh but for the rest of you who [03:55] want a discount, that's a great way to [03:57] do that. We are also, I believe, [03:59] releasing the introduction to spiritual [04:01] gifts e-course once again, and [04:03] registration, I believe, will be opening [04:05] August 19th, or maybe it's pre-orders. [04:07] I'm I'm I should have gotten all these [04:09] uh uh you know, uh [04:10] dots eyes dotted and tees crossed, but [04:13] uh unfortunately, again, the uh tech [04:15] difficulties have me a little bit off my [04:17] game. Well, I I think [04:19] >> Michael. [04:20] There you go. Just say it. [04:22] >> To be fair, it would have been me solo, [04:24] which would have been way worse for [04:25] people to watch. Hey, let's just dive [04:26] into a couple of clips. What I've done [04:28] is I've scrubbed uh sections of her book [04:31] um and turned them into an AI companion, [04:34] had the AI companion read that. That'll [04:36] be up on screen with the text from the [04:38] book, so that you can see the source [04:40] material. Uh I'm going to essentially [04:42] going to clip each individual one of [04:43] these uh chapters, it'll they'll begin [04:45] to read, and then we're going to give [04:46] commentary on it over and over um as we [04:50] uh proceed through these clips. But, I [04:52] want to walk you through the kind of [04:53] framework that we're going to be doing [04:54] today. We're going to listen to a couple [04:55] of clips, uh which are going to be, [04:57] again, excerpts from the book, where she [04:59] is going to [05:01] tell her reader that they need to be [05:02] dependent on apostles and prophets. Um [05:05] Katherine has bought into the NAR [05:07] structure of leadership, uh not that the [05:09] the historic model of church leadership, [05:11] which is the church is run by elders and [05:13] deacons, uh or even uh an a bishop [05:16] that's over a region, or another model [05:19] of congregational leadership. Um we [05:21] don't see any of that being used in [05:23] Katherine's formation. She's appealing [05:25] to the new apostolic reformation kind of [05:27] set up by C. Peter Wagner, that apostles [05:29] and prophets are at the top, uh and they [05:31] oversee uh the church uh so that [05:33] anointing can kind of flow down and [05:34] bless all of God's people. So, she's [05:36] going to uh use that articulation to [05:38] say, "Hey, this is the real deal uh that [05:41] you need to be pursuing." Uh in the next [05:42] section, we're going to be looking at [05:43] clips where she's going to kind of [05:45] discount anything that looks different [05:47] from that, calling it old wine, uh [05:49] calling it, you know, inferior models [05:51] that aren't able to really receive the [05:52] supernatural power that can only come [05:54] when you have apostolic and prophetic [05:56] oversight. Then we're going to see her [05:58] remove any possibility of disagreement. [06:00] She is going to uh say that people who [06:02] disagree with her are going to be [06:03] bitter. They're going to be uh men vain [06:05] in their own personal interest. They're [06:07] self-righteous, etc. And then we're [06:09] going to look at her preventing people [06:11] from going anywhere else. Uh as she [06:14] claims that she is going to be the [06:15] source for a lot of this uh power. Uh [06:17] and then we're going to finally look at [06:19] the pecking order where she's going to [06:20] claim that you have to really run a lot [06:21] of these decisions through your [06:23] spiritual leadership. As we do so, I [06:25] hope that we can uh demonstrate to you [06:27] today uh that this is a dangerous [06:29] cult-like tendencies for people who are [06:32] here with Katherine. Now, [06:34] again, we've got some technical [06:35] difficulties. I realize that I'm going [06:36] to click this video and there's going to [06:37] be two of me that pop up on screen and [06:40] then I'll have to punch Michael over to [06:41] one of those cameras, so I apologize for [06:43] that. Uh Rountree, do you have anything [06:44] you want to add before we dive into [06:46] these clips? [06:48] >> Uh no, I'm ready to dive in. [06:50] >> Okay, here we go, clip number one. [06:53] >> Spiritual authority over others, to cast [06:54] out demons, to heal the sick, to [06:55] shepherd, or to teach is not given to [06:56] everyone. God must perceive that a [06:57] person is trustworthy before he [06:58] increases their level of authority. We [06:59] are all called to share the good news, [07:01] but not all are called to be teachers or [07:02] fivefold ministers. James chapter 3 [07:04] verse 1 as Ephesians chapter 4 verse 11 [07:06] New King James Version says, "And he [07:07] himself gave some to be apostles, some [07:09] prophets, some evangelists, and some [07:10] pastors and teachers." God releases the [07:12] greatest levels of authority and [07:13] anointing to apostles and prophets, [07:14] followed by evangelists, pastors, and [07:15] teachers, so that the fivefold ministers [07:16] may pour out that anointing into [07:17] believers. This is the divine principle [07:19] of impartation, as seen when Elijah [07:20] released his mantle to Elisha. Just as a [07:21] student needs a teacher who possesses [07:22] greater wisdom and understanding in [07:24] order to grow, so it is in the kingdom [07:25] of God. God raises up fivefold ministers [07:27] and fills them with great anointing, [07:28] wisdom, and spiritual knowledge so that [07:29] believers may learn, grow, and receive [07:30] impartation through them as they humbly [07:31] submit under their leadership. This is [07:32] God's divine structure. [07:35] >> Okay, we're starting right off the bat. [07:36] Uh as I said, the focus is again the [07:39] greatest measures of anointing are going [07:41] to apostles and prophets. We're going to [07:43] see, again, down the stream of this, [07:45] maybe pun intended, that this is going [07:47] to cause some serious problems [07:49] when it comes to teachers and pastors [07:51] who disagree with Katherine. But I've [07:53] modeled quite a bit. Rountree, do you [07:55] have any initial thoughts on the [07:57] anointing operating through apostles and [07:58] prophets? [08:00] >> Yeah. [08:02] Okay, so first her first statement, [08:04] spiritual authority [08:06] over others to cast out demons, to heal [08:08] the sick, [08:10] to shepherd or to teach. So so already [08:13] she has [08:15] like I don't know, there's been like [08:17] this little [08:19] I guess admission that she sees the [08:21] ability to cast out demons and heal the [08:23] sick is having authority over another [08:25] human, like authority over others. [08:28] Okay, but either way, she says it's not [08:30] given to everyone. So she's saying not [08:33] all believers can pray for the sick and [08:36] they can be healed. Not all believers [08:38] can cast out demons. Only special ones? [08:41] What? Where's the passage of scripture [08:43] that says only apostles and prophets can [08:45] cast out demons and heal the sick. Now, [08:47] when it comes to shepherding and [08:48] teaching, I I would say there is some [08:51] sense in which those are true. Although [08:53] even when we look at teaching, if you [08:54] look at like Ephesians 5, Colossians 3, [08:57] you see that we're all to teach one [08:59] another. Matthew 28, we're to [09:02] we're to teach others what Jesus has [09:04] taught us. And [09:06] and so there's a kind of a capital T [09:09] teaching which is entrusted to elders [09:11] and lower case d teaching that we all [09:13] get to do. [09:14] But she seems to really want to work in [09:16] this, like this authority over others is [09:20] the real key because it it seems to be [09:22] really important that to her that that [09:24] she gets this high-level authority. [09:27] And uh [09:29] and she inherently interprets Ephesians [09:31] 4:11 as being an authority structure, [09:34] but it actually never says that. It [09:36] never says the prophets are the bosses [09:39] of other prophets or the evangelists are [09:41] bosses of others. [09:44] What we see in the New Testament is we [09:46] see that the elders are entrusted with [09:48] authority in the church. Um [09:51] 1 Timothy 5:17 [09:53] it says it says exactly that. So, um [09:58] but she but she sees this as an [09:59] authoritarian sort of thing exactly like [10:02] you said with with an AR and she wants [10:05] to run everything through this Elijah [10:07] Elisha kind of umbrella where it's like [10:10] you've got the boss prophet and then or [10:12] apostle and then the prophet apostle [10:15] under that person and then all the [10:17] underlings are under that. So, just a [10:19] very strong hierarchical structure and [10:23] what I see in the New Testament is not [10:25] this sharp strong hierarchical [10:27] structure. There is such a thing as [10:29] ecclesiastical authority in the church, [10:32] absolutely. Uh but I would call this [10:35] overkill and and trying to turn the [10:39] Elijah Elisha story into [10:43] the end-all be-all of how spiritual [10:45] authority is supposed to work and and I [10:47] think that's uh [10:49] reading too much into the text. Josh, [10:51] what do you think? [10:51] >> Yeah. [10:52] That's right. I I you know, I've got a [10:53] couple of thoughts too that I want to [10:55] kind of point out. She's going to [10:57] essentially make this case that the [10:58] reason that you are not seeing signs, [11:01] wonders, and miracles is because you are [11:02] not in a church that is being governed [11:05] by an apostle or a prophet. Uh so, she [11:07] is trying to get the reader to [11:10] connect with this idea of why is my life [11:13] not as supernatural as I see in the book [11:16] of Acts. Um first and foremost, I want [11:18] to remind the reader of those in the [11:20] book of Acts was extremely difficult. Uh [11:23] they were beaten, they were flogged, [11:25] they were shipwrecked, they were left [11:27] for dead over and over and over and and [11:30] it ends essentially with Well, it [11:33] doesn't explicitly state this, but with [11:35] the expectation that Paul is going to [11:37] his death. It is a life of suffering [11:41] that we see in the book of Acts. And are [11:43] there supernatural miracles that take [11:45] place? Absolutely. But this takes the [11:47] span over decades. This isn't a single [11:50] moment, a single year, a single month [11:52] where all these things are recorded. And [11:53] yes, the exceptions to the norm, and the [11:56] exceptional stories are the ones that [11:58] get written down. So here, she's going [12:01] to try to connect the audience with this [12:02] idea that like, "Hey guys, look. [12:04] If you want your life to look like the [12:06] book of Acts," which again is going to [12:07] be lots of trial and tribulation, [12:10] that part is left out. If you want to [12:11] see the supernatural signs, wonders, and [12:12] miracles, what's missing is the [12:15] apostolic and the prophetic. And you [12:17] need those superior anointings. And [12:20] again, the the scripture says we have [12:22] received the anointing. What is the [12:23] anointing? She even says later on in her [12:24] book, "The anointing is the Holy [12:26] Spirit." So what does it mean to have a [12:27] superior Holy Spirit? That's not That's [12:30] not something the text says. God's power [12:33] that raised Christ from the dead, that [12:34] same spirit that that caused that [12:37] resurrection life, is that same spirit [12:38] that has been given to you. You don't [12:40] have a greater Holy Spirit or a lesser [12:42] Holy Spirit than I do because we have [12:44] both been united to the same Christ by [12:46] faith. It is one spirit who works in all [12:49] and through all, says Ephesians. So I [12:52] don't think that this idea that there's [12:53] a super or greater or, you know, level [12:56] of anointing is even biblical. But the [12:57] second thing I want to point out is that [12:59] she suggests that trustworthiness, i.e., [13:01] your integrity, is going to be the [13:04] metric by which that power is magnified [13:07] and put on display in front of others. [13:10] She, you know, uses the the phrase that [13:13] when you have a greater trustworthiness, [13:15] you have greater levels of anointing [13:16] authority given to you. She says God [13:18] releases the greater levels of authority [13:20] and anointing to apostles and to [13:21] prophets, followed by evangelists, [13:23] pastors, and teachers that are fivefold [13:25] ministries, so forth and so on. But but [13:27] she makes this claim that it is [13:28] essentially a greater measure of [13:30] authority when it is connected to [13:33] greater levels of trustworthiness. God [13:35] will give you more and more. The problem [13:37] with that is that there are people in [13:39] the Bible who are performing signs, [13:40] wonders, and miracles who are false [13:41] prophets, says the scripture. And if [13:44] your integrity is a sign of power, then [13:46] people are going to see power and go, [13:48] "Oh, well, you must have integrity [13:49] behind the scenes." That is false. Judas [13:52] was one who, according to the [13:54] scriptures, was one of the disciples and [13:55] as one of the 12 apostles there is [13:57] casting out demons, healing the sick, [13:59] but we know from the scriptures he's [14:00] skimming a little bit off the top of the [14:01] money bag. He is stealing and would one [14:04] day betray our Lord. So, even in that [14:06] account, you have someone who is [14:08] demonstrating real supernatural power [14:10] because God is sovereign over all, not [14:12] because of some marker of integrity. [14:15] Throughout the scriptures, spiritual [14:16] maturity is really pointed at through [14:19] the fruit of the spirit, not necessarily [14:21] the gifts of the spirit. So, Michael [14:23] tackled the idea that gifts are not [14:25] prophecies, I'll tackle the idea that [14:26] gifts are not a seal of approval of [14:29] someone's character since we have false [14:31] prophets doing these sorts of things, [14:33] and even at times believers who have [14:35] fallen astray. In 1st Corinthians [14:37] chapter 12, you have people who have bad [14:39] integrity, they have bad character, [14:40] they're not practicing spiritual gifts [14:42] through the lens of love. And that's why [14:43] Paul writes 1st Corinthians 13. So, I'd [14:47] make the argument that, well, [14:49] this is a big nothing burger. Everything [14:51] you said is wrong. I award you no [14:52] points. [14:54] >> Yeah, and and I would also say I I just [14:56] really don't like this idea that God [14:59] raises up ministers who have so one [15:01] greater anointing, but I want to focus [15:02] on greater wisdom and spiritual [15:04] knowledge than other believers. And I [15:06] just don't believe that. I mean, I [15:08] became a lead pastor at age 30. I and [15:12] I just feel like, man, so many people in [15:15] my church were way more spiritually [15:17] mature than me because there's a certain [15:19] kind of spiritual maturity that can only [15:22] come from living and suffering and [15:24] enduring things that a 30-year-old [15:26] hasn't suffered and endured yet. And so [15:29] uh [15:30] and there were there were old ladies in [15:32] my church that it's like they'd [15:34] memorized the whole Bible, were super [15:37] close to the Lord. I just wanted to like [15:40] just sit and pray with them in a prayer [15:42] meeting and just because it was like I I [15:45] was sort of catching some of their fire, [15:47] if you will. And [15:49] just this idea that like hey, we're at [15:52] the top, we're the most anointed, we [15:53] know the most, we're the closest to God, [15:55] we're the most mature. I mean, it's very [15:58] proud. And one of the ways the Apostle [16:00] Paul talks about identifying a false [16:02] teacher is by their arrogance. And so [16:04] these are just very arrogant statements [16:07] and [16:09] it's a big red flag to me. [16:10] >> Yeah. Hey, I just want to read the [16:12] correct section. A moment ago, I said [16:14] God, you know, releases greater levels [16:16] of authority. I quoted the wrong [16:17] section. It's It's still the right [16:19] paragraph that we just listened to, but [16:20] I didn't go up further. God must first [16:23] see if a person is trustworthy before he [16:25] increases their level of authority. And [16:27] again, talking about authority and [16:28] anointing, again, conflating those two [16:29] things. The point still stands even [16:31] though I quoted the wrong section. Let's [16:33] go into clip number two unless you have [16:35] any other reservations against it, [16:37] Rountree. [16:39] >> Okay, no reservations. [16:41] >> Okay, clip number two. [16:42] >> The New Living Translation puts this [16:43] same verse this way. If you receive a [16:44] prophet as one who speaks for God, this [16:46] New Testament scripture reveals that [16:47] believers in the early church who [16:48] received prophets recognize their words [16:49] as coming from God, believe them, and [16:51] follow them would receive a prophet's [16:52] reward. The prophet's reward refers to [16:54] blessings and abundant life as [16:55] illustrated in 2 Chronicles chapter 20 [16:56] verse 20. New King James version. So [16:57] they rose early in the morning and went [16:58] out into the wilderness of one Tekoa. [17:00] And as they went out, Jehoshaphat stood [17:01] and said, "Hear me, O Judah, and you [17:02] inhabitants of Jerusalem. Believe in the [17:03] Lord your God, and you shall be [17:04] established. Believe his prophets, and [17:05] you shall prosper." When you believe in [17:06] God, you will be saved. You will be [17:08] established, meaning your journey as a [17:09] child of God will begin. But to truly [17:11] prosper, you must walk in God's ways of [17:13] releasing his power, his word, and his [17:14] miracles. One of the primary ways God [17:15] releases all of these things is through [17:17] his servants. When you believe and [17:18] receive a prophetic word and direction [17:19] from a true prophet, you are aligning [17:20] yourself with God's will, and that is [17:21] where true prosperity is found. [17:24] >> Okay, that's Ignite Revival. That is [17:26] going to be in chapter two. The first [17:27] section we quoted was in chapter four. [17:29] So, in the first section we saw that the [17:31] reason you don't have anointing is going [17:35] to be involved with that fivefold [17:36] ministry, but here we're going to [17:38] realize that the reason we don't have [17:40] prosperity is because we have not had [17:43] the prophetic office and we haven't [17:45] received that prophetic office. If we [17:46] would receive a prophet, we would [17:48] receive a prophet's reward, which is [17:49] really where true prosperity comes from. [17:52] Rountree, your thoughts about [17:54] prosperity. [17:56] >> Golly, [17:58] man, it's just really tough. Like, if [18:00] you believe everything I say, follow me, [18:04] obey me, respect me, and esteem me, then [18:07] you will prosper. [18:09] Man, that's rough. That's really, really [18:12] rough. It really puts her as the [18:15] mediator of all blessings. And man, [18:19] there's a Bible verse I'm thinking of. [18:21] It says, "There is one mediator between [18:23] God and man, the man Christ Jesus." [18:26] And and it really does sound like [18:28] Kathryn Krick makes herself and maybe a [18:31] few other anointed folks out to be the [18:33] mediators of blessing. Like, she is the [18:36] bottleneck. She is the choke point. She [18:39] is the gateway to all blessing. If you [18:41] just believe, obey, and follow her. [18:46] But, to receive a prophet, I mean, in [18:48] the context she's talking about, it's [18:50] actually not talking about necessarily [18:52] believing and following those prophets. [18:55] To receive the prophet in context was [18:58] when the apostles were being sent out to [19:01] on a mission trip to the towns of [19:05] of Israel to to go and preach and cast [19:07] out demons and heal the sick. And so, [19:09] whoever received them, you might call [19:11] this a person of peace. [19:13] Uh that person would be hospitable to [19:15] them, would house them, and certainly [19:18] would show a warmth to their message, [19:21] but this idea that they would put them [19:23] on this pedestal of believing everything [19:26] they say and obeying and following them, [19:28] well, there's actually no indicator that [19:30] in the text that that's actually what [19:32] happened. So, I think she's going beyond [19:34] the text. And then, to talk about what [19:37] is a prophet's reward, [19:39] it that text doesn't technically define [19:42] what a prophet's reward is, so she jumps [19:44] over to Chronicles to say the pros- [19:46] prophet's reward [19:48] is prosperity. [19:50] I I think we can more intuit or infer [19:52] what a prophet's reward is, like you get [19:54] the blessing of their ministry. But to [19:57] make that into material prosperity, I [20:00] think is overkill. No, a prophet [20:02] ministers to you, and you experience the [20:04] blessing of their ministry. And so, I [20:07] mean, if you really want to go Old [20:08] Testament with it, look at uh the woman [20:10] like this would be kind of like the Old [20:11] Testament equivalent of a person of [20:13] peace, [20:14] uh where [20:16] you have the the woman who takes Elijah [20:19] in, and as a result, she gets provided [20:22] for, you know, your oil Elisha, your oil [20:25] will not run out. This actually happens [20:27] this kind of same kind of thing with [20:28] Elijah and Elisha. They get the blessing [20:30] and benefit of their ministry. Now, in [20:32] that case, it I I wouldn't call it [20:34] prosperity. I would talk it call it [20:36] survival. Uh so, but there was a [20:38] material aspect to it. But um but [20:41] sometimes it was healing, and sometimes [20:43] it was a miracle, and sometimes it was a [20:45] prophetic word. But to make this into a [20:47] thing [20:49] >> I mean, Paul in every city he went to, [20:52] in every city he went to, the spirit [20:53] testified that he was going to suffer. [20:56] So, he received that prophetic ministry, [20:58] and it ended in his death. [21:01] >> Right? Like attach yourself to Paul, it [21:03] might not go well with you. [21:06] Right? Or like people uh the the [21:08] apostles [21:10] why did they why did they scatter when [21:12] Jesus was crucified? Because they knew [21:14] that attaching themselves to the capital [21:16] P ultimate prophet was actually going to [21:18] cost them. Certainly not result in [21:21] prosperity the way she's talking. Now, [21:24] if we broaden prosperity to just mean uh [21:26] just the blessing of the Lord, then then [21:28] I could maybe go for that. But the [21:30] blessing of the Lord might include being [21:31] persecuted. Blessed are those who are [21:33] persecuted for righteousness' sake, for [21:35] theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Uh the [21:37] blessing that Jesus brings is a [21:39] different kind of blessing than I think [21:40] what Katherine Krick is promising. [21:43] >> That's right. I I only meant to argue [21:44] that here um Paul is receiving other [21:47] prophets who are speaking over him that [21:49] he's going to go and suffer. And what is [21:51] his reward? Well, he has a heavenly [21:53] reward. Uh if if we're talking about [21:55] earthly prosperity, he died. Um would [21:58] that's not the definition that she is [21:59] giving here. It is receiving and [22:01] trusting in the work of Yahweh. Uh I [22:04] think you've done a bang-up job on that. [22:05] We've got 13 clips to go through. We've [22:07] done two of them. We're 22 minutes in. [22:09] So, I'm going to pump to clip number [22:12] three um because not only does man the [22:15] the prophetic and apostolic give you [22:17] anointing, not only does it give you [22:18] prosperity, it actually helps you live [22:20] holy as well. [22:21] >> God is restoring purity to the body of [22:23] Christ for believers to be transformed [22:24] >> Okay. Why is clip three not playing? [22:28] >> God is restoring purity to the body of [22:30] Christ for believers to be transformed [22:31] and to have pure hearts. It is vital [22:32] that God's system for growing and [22:33] transforming his church, the fivefold [22:34] ministry, is properly in place. Apostles [22:36] and prophets carry the power of God that [22:37] opens spiritual eyes to the reality of [22:38] the spiritual realm and the tangible [22:39] presence of his love, which in turn [22:40] produces the fear of God. Being in a [22:41] ministry where the power of God moves [22:43] mightily brings a deep reverence and awe [22:44] for him. Apostles teach with a sense of [22:45] divine seriousness about the Father's [22:46] business, and their teachings help [22:47] believers mature as the flesh is [22:48] subdued. Prophets, more than any of the [22:50] other fivefold offices, carry a grace [22:51] that brings forth the fear of God. The [22:52] fear of God is what births purity. The [22:54] fear of God is a holy reverence that [22:56] makes the slightest disobedience feel [22:57] like a heartbreak to your soul. Many [22:58] Christians today lack the fear of God [22:59] and live their faith casually. They [23:00] abuse God's grace and miss its true [23:01] revelation. That grace isn't to be taken [23:03] advantage of. Yet we don't have to live [23:04] afraid of making mistakes because his [23:05] grace covers us when we do. As a [23:06] believer, your heart's greatest desire [23:07] should be to live in his will every day, [23:09] continually walking in obedience. [23:11] >> Sorry, I don't know why that clip didn't [23:13] play initially. Uh you want me to come [23:15] out swinging or do you got something? [23:16] >> Uh go first cuz I went last time. [23:19] >> I'll tell you what. Uh this one's bad. [23:21] Uh if you guys again follow this train [23:23] of thought, why why is it that you're [23:24] not living holy? [23:26] Well, it it's not your fault. It's not [23:28] your responsibility. It's not um because [23:31] you are sowing to the flesh and reaping [23:33] from the flesh. And I also want to [23:35] concede to the ground that, man, it is a [23:36] work of God. It's trust and faith in [23:38] Jesus that, man, [23:40] actualizes sanctification. The [23:41] scriptures will speak of sanctification [23:44] in a very kind of mystical sort of way [23:46] where God sanctifies us and and then we [23:49] participate in that sanctification [23:50] process as well. It is very synergistic [23:53] in its formation in the scriptures, but [23:55] this is a deeply complicated issue. And [23:57] here these deeply complicated issues [24:00] like when why God heals or doesn't heal, [24:02] why God gives prophetic words or doesn't [24:04] give prophetic words, how God gives [24:06] prosperity to some and and to others [24:08] they don't seem to have that same kind [24:10] of monetary prosperity, or or even your [24:12] own sanctification. These are extremely [24:14] complex theological ideas that she is [24:17] just writing off to say, "If you want [24:19] the quick answer, if you want to get the [24:20] quick fix, what you need is apostles and [24:22] prophets." It's not sowing to the [24:24] spirit. It's not trusting in Jesus all [24:27] the more. It's not growing in your [24:28] dependence on your savior. The answer to [24:31] all of the problems that plague you is [24:34] your apostles and prophets. [24:35] Um when I look at this [24:37] when I look at this book, when I when I [24:39] read what is being, you know, written [24:42] down by Catherine, I see a very complex [24:46] issue being resolved with very simple [24:48] solutions. And that's one of the things [24:51] that cult groups are going to continue [24:52] to offer, very simple solutions for very [24:55] complex problems. [24:58] >> Yeah. [24:59] Yeah, the argumentation is apostles are [25:01] the best. I'm an apostle, follow me and [25:04] you'll be able to fear God. [25:07] Uh I don't man, it's just it's really [25:09] bad. Uh I'm going to focus on a specific [25:11] line cuz I mean apostles teach with [25:14] sense of divine seriousness about the [25:16] father's business. Do teachers not? [25:18] Teachers are just kind of casual about [25:19] it? Like if you look at Ezra, like this [25:21] teacher who was careful to uh to study [25:25] and observe all the commands of the Lord [25:28] and uh what was it? It's like steady, [25:29] observe, there were three verbs there. [25:31] Once anyway, I I lost it but [25:33] >> He [25:34] ripped out people's beards who were [25:36] compromising. [25:38] But you know, he's just a teacher. [25:40] That's what it [25:40] >> But he's just a teacher, right? So he's [25:41] not really serious about the fear of [25:43] God. So you see it's like this very it's [25:45] like huge on elevating like her her [25:48] whole point is to elevate the role of [25:50] apostles and she considers herself an [25:52] apostle so it is a self-exalting [25:54] message. Once again, it's arrogant. Paul [25:56] warns about about arrogant teachers. Uh [25:59] this is something to be really careful [26:01] about. Um [26:03] so like prophets more than any of the [26:06] other fivefold offices carry a grace [26:08] that brings forth the fear of God. Like [26:10] evangelists can't bring about the fear [26:12] of God. Teachers can't bring about the [26:13] fear of God. Uh [26:15] what what Bible verse says that? Now [26:19] Paul does single out apostles and [26:20] prophets as [26:22] uh within the temple of Christ as the [26:24] chief cornerstone. Apostles and prophets [26:26] make this foundation and others are [26:28] being built upon that. That's Ephesians [26:30] chapter 2. And that's where she gets [26:32] this but if you uh keep reading into [26:34] Ephesians chapter 3, it explains why. [26:36] Because in that day the apostles and [26:38] prophets were bringing forth revelation [26:41] that Gentiles are co-heirs and fellow [26:43] partakers of the promises. So in other [26:45] words, you didn't have a tier system [26:47] where it's like oh you have the really [26:49] awesome Jews and the second class [26:51] citizen Gentiles. No, the revelation of [26:53] the gospel is that we're all on equal [26:55] footing. Well, here's the irony. She [26:57] takes this and she puts apostles and [26:59] prophets on this special tier. So, you [27:03] once again have two tiers of Christians. [27:04] It's the very thing Paul's trying to [27:06] warn about. [27:07] The other thing that I want to zero in [27:09] on is she talks about uh opening the eye [27:12] opening spiritual eyes. Uh where is [27:14] that? Um [27:15] where a prophets have a special ability. [27:18] Yeah, apostles prophets carry the [27:20] power of God that opens spiritual eyes [27:22] the reality of the spiritual realm and [27:24] the tangible presence of his love. Um [27:26] which in turn produces this the fear of [27:28] God. Okay, so apostles and prophets open [27:31] spiritual eyes. Um [27:33] Okay, where does it say that in [27:34] scripture? In fact, the Apostle Paul [27:36] actually says that like he prays in [27:39] Ephesians chapter 1 that all of us would [27:41] have our spiritual eyes open. So, I pray [27:43] that the eyes of your heart may be [27:45] enlightened or open so that you may know [27:47] the hope to which he has called you the [27:50] riches of his glorious inheritance in [27:52] the saints and the incomparably great [27:54] power for us who believe that power is [27:56] like the working of his mighty strength [27:58] which he exerted in Christ when he [27:59] raised him from the dead. And so uh and [28:01] so Paul is praying for all believers to [28:04] have this. And so, should we not [28:06] continue praying for this? Was this just [28:07] like a one-time prayer? Uh so, this idea [28:10] that apostles and prophets have this [28:11] special power for uh opening uh [28:14] spiritual eyes or take Psalm 119. I'll [28:16] quote the KJV. Open thou mine eyes that [28:19] I might behold wondrous things out of [28:21] thy law. Uh so so David is praying that [28:25] God would open up his eyes to behold the [28:28] beauty of God's word. Uh and so, there's [28:31] no sense anywhere in scripture that [28:33] apostles and prophets alone carry this [28:35] ability to open spiritual eyes. [28:38] Actually, that quality belongs to God. [28:40] God opens spiritual eyes and uses lots [28:42] of different people to do it. He uses [28:43] evangelists. Uh evangelists open the [28:46] eyes of the spiritually blind so that [28:48] they can say, "Now I see." [28:50] And so it's false. It's altogether false [28:53] what she's saying. And the effect of the [28:55] falsehood is to, once again, exalt her. [28:59] >> That's my problem. I want I want [29:01] teaching that exalts Jesus. [29:03] Like all of this, it's all about the [29:05] exaltation of the apostle, it's all [29:07] about the [29:07] exaltation of the prophet. Why are we [29:09] exalting humans? Why aren't we exalting [29:12] Jesus Christ? That's who I want to [29:14] exalt. And any ministry that is exalting [29:17] man and not Jesus Christ, I say big red [29:21] flag. Run away from that. [29:24] >> Yeah, I noticed every single one of [29:25] these markers, healing, deliverance, [29:28] um, [29:28] opening the eyes, helping you live holy, [29:31] helping you walk in prosperity. Who Who [29:35] is the one person in scripture that's [29:36] sovereign over all of those things? God. [29:39] But But in all of these accounts, she's [29:41] saying, "Don't Don't I mean, yeah, look [29:43] to God, but go to the mediator. The [29:45] mediator will get you there." [29:47] >> Yeah, it's almost like a [29:49] almost like a charismatic almost like a [29:51] charismatic [29:52] papacy. Like, go to the Pope. It's like [29:55] we need a new mediator. Actually, no. I [29:57] think we settled that. I think we [29:59] settled that a long time ago. [29:59] >> Been there, done that, bought the [30:01] T-shirt, went home and slept in it, [30:03] didn't like it. [30:04] Now I'm Protestant. So, let's let's look [30:08] Let's look at [30:09] how we receive anointing cuz I think [30:11] this is the final the final straw on [30:13] this first point before we move on to [30:16] point number two and kind of [30:19] side brushing everything that disagrees [30:21] with us. [30:22] >> Once you plant yourself in the ministry [30:23] that God has called you to, the same [30:24] anointing that flows through the leader [30:25] that is releasing miracles and [30:26] transforming lives will begin to flow [30:27] upon your life and touch every area of [30:29] it. When you make the decision to become [30:30] planted in the church where God has [30:32] assigned you, you open a spiritual door [30:33] for his anointing to move freely in your [30:34] life. It's a divine principle that when [30:36] you plant yourself where God has called [30:37] you, the anointing will locate you, [30:38] bringing spiritual protection, health, [30:40] growth, and impartation. When you are [30:41] rooted in the place God has chosen for [30:42] you, you will grow spiritually with [30:43] great acceleration. The weights of [30:44] oppression and the weaknesses of the [30:45] flesh will fall away with ease. Whenever [30:47] you need healing or deliverance, the [30:48] anointing will release the miracles you [30:49] need. When I speak of the anointing, I [30:51] am speaking of the Holy Spirit himself. [30:52] Specifically, the Holy Spirit moving in [30:53] power, just as he did through the [30:54] apostles and fivefold ministers in the [30:55] early church of Acts. [30:57] >> Okay. I I hope you notice what's going [31:00] on here because if you are experiencing [31:03] any kind of um lack of freedom in a [31:06] specific area of sin, you're not seeing [31:09] demonstrations of power, what must that [31:11] mean? It must mean that you're not [31:13] planted in the house you're supposed to [31:15] be in. Again, I believe this is an [31:18] active attempt to get people to distrust [31:21] the spaces they're in. Oh, if I was in [31:24] the right space, I had the right apostle [31:26] over me, that anointing would flow down [31:28] onto me. My life would be that of a [31:30] prosperity and health and wealth. I I I [31:33] would be one who could cast out demons [31:34] and heal the sick. I'd be living free [31:36] from sin. I have all these great things [31:38] going on in my life. And And because I'm [31:40] here in this little small country [31:43] church, and there's not a lot of [31:44] stimulation taking place on a Sunday [31:46] morning, I'm not seeing lots of [31:48] transformation at this moment, I [31:50] probably need to go find somewhere else [31:52] to be. And the best place to get the [31:54] anointing is sitting under godly [31:57] leaders. Who is the godliest of leaders? [31:59] Well, according to Katherine, the [32:02] godliest of leaders, the most anointed, [32:04] those who are walking in true power, [32:06] those are apostles and prophets, which [32:07] again is going to give you a very small [32:09] list of churches that you can go to [32:11] truly get empowered. I think this is an [32:14] active attempt for Katherine to fish [32:17] people out of their local communities [32:19] and into her community. Now, you might [32:21] say, "Josh, that's not fair. You know, [32:24] she has a a little church in LA that [32:26] this is There's not an opportunity for [32:28] her to get all of the people who are [32:29] reading this book and all the people who [32:31] are on her podcast to be members of her [32:32] church." And I go, "Aha!" But what she [32:34] actually says [32:36] uh her book that the way that people are [32:39] connecting themselves to her ministry [32:40] are mostly online. That people are [32:42] getting deliverance and freedom and [32:44] downstream anointing uh from that online [32:47] ministry. She does not have a vision of [32:49] a local community being the assembly. [32:51] Her vision of a church is one that is [32:54] connected. As long as your primary uh [32:57] source of uh education and training and [33:00] theological development is coming from [33:02] an apostle and a prophet and you're [33:04] going to in a moment. Namely just one. [33:07] Uh you actually can't go to other [33:09] prophets and apostles because that'll [33:10] confuse you and there's probably [33:11] mixture. You really just need to go to [33:14] one and she claims she's the one who's [33:16] got the new wine, she's got the new [33:17] anointing. She's the one you really need [33:19] to be listening to. Extremely culty. Um [33:22] bad bad bad bad. [33:24] >> Yeah. [33:25] Yeah. When when you're rooted in the [33:27] place God has chosen for you, you will [33:29] grow spiritually and with great [33:31] acceleration. The weights of oppression [33:33] and the weaknesses of the flesh will [33:35] fall away with ease. I'm sorry. It's [33:39] never easy. Anyone who's promising you [33:41] that it's easy, like this is this is the [33:43] message. Let me Let me just break this [33:44] down for you. [33:46] If you come to my church, if you submit [33:48] to me as your apostle, your life will [33:50] become easy. [33:51] What? [33:52] No way. [33:53] Where Since when is crucifixion easy? [33:56] Since when is take up your cross and [33:58] follow me easy? The The teacher that I [34:00] want to follow is the one who says take [34:02] up your cross, not the one who says come [34:04] to me and your life will be easy. It'll [34:07] be easy to give up uh those addictions. [34:10] It'll be easy to give up everything [34:12] that's holding you No. No, absolutely [34:15] not. There's not this great acceleration [34:16] just because I go to Kathryn Krick's [34:18] church. No. Absolutely not. And there's [34:21] just this like huge focus on the signs [34:23] and wonders. I believe in the signs and [34:25] wonders. I believe in prophecy, healing, [34:27] casting out demons. [34:28] I've seen it all. Uh I I [34:31] in it. But man, I believe in the [34:32] ordinary means of grace and I I just get [34:35] exhausted with this idea of like this [34:38] constant sense of like there's going to [34:40] be revival, there're going to be all [34:41] these signs and wonders and it's going [34:43] to make your life easy and you're just [34:44] going to break out. Like that's not real [34:46] life. [34:47] If anyone's really honest, it's just not [34:49] real life. And I've seen a lot, but most [34:52] of my life is ordinary and a lot of [34:55] people I pray for, no but they don't get [34:57] healed. And a lot of people I pray for, [34:59] they do get healed, but like you know, [35:01] it's like I I've been on sabbatical and [35:04] last week I visited an Anglican church. [35:06] And the Anglican church, they weren't [35:08] like jumping around and storming. It was [35:09] very liturgical, kind of almost quiet, [35:12] soft-spoken, [35:14] uh but the presence of God was there. [35:16] And the ordinary means of grace were [35:18] present and it was absolutely beautiful. [35:21] And I just think that's the way like [35:24] what do we need? We We need a church [35:25] that is faithful, that love faithful to [35:28] the scriptures, [35:29] uh a church with uh [35:31] that is full of faithful believers who [35:34] can encourage us in our faith in our [35:36] faith, [35:37] uh that practice word and sacrament and [35:39] the ordinary means of grace that come [35:41] into our life. That's what transforms us [35:44] and the transformation is usually not [35:46] like this [35:48] immediate giant change that occasionally [35:51] happens. [35:52] Um usually it's slow. We're transformed [35:55] as Paul would say from glory to glory. [35:57] Uh we're not instantly transformed into [35:59] the image of Christ. So it's just a lot [36:02] of promises that she can't deliver on. [36:05] >> It's funny that you mentioned normative [36:06] means of grace. She actually goes out of [36:08] her way. Michael, if you want to look at [36:09] full citations and tab the second tab of [36:11] the show notes, [36:12] uh she mentions communion explicitly as [36:16] something that has become ritualistic in [36:18] an old wineskin because people want to [36:20] take it regularly. [36:22] Um [36:23] it is it is not good. [36:26] Uh again, when someone is encouraging [36:28] you to not go to the places God has [36:30] promised to be and said, "Hey, that's [36:32] just dead religion. We need the new [36:33] thing." And then they point to [36:34] themselves as the new thing. [36:36] Again, the focus is coming off of what [36:39] Christ has told us to put the focus on. [36:40] Now, you might argue, you know, Josh, [36:42] God hasn't made this giant focus of like [36:45] communion being the way that we [36:46] encounter God. It's just one of the [36:48] means. God has promised to be in his [36:50] word, right? The word of God is it's a [36:52] powerful The gospel is a power of God in [36:54] the salvation for all who believe, [36:55] right? God meets us in the gospel. God [36:59] meets us in communion. His presence, [37:01] it's real body, his his [37:03] his presence, it's it's communion, it's [37:05] koinonia with his body and with his [37:07] blood. It's some kind of spiritual [37:09] fellowship that he has promised us as we [37:11] take communion. The same is true of the [37:13] assembly. He is with us and in us and [37:16] around us when we gather as a community [37:18] in this unique way that Christ is among [37:21] us when we gather. He inhabits the [37:23] praise of his people as we gather [37:25] together for worship. And these are the [37:26] places that God has promised he will [37:27] meet us. And to say, "Hey, look, stop [37:30] focusing on those things. That's just [37:31] dead religion. Focus on these new [37:33] methods. That's the new wine skin." is [37:35] the message you're going to be receiving [37:37] from this book. [37:38] >> Yeah. [37:38] Yeah, [37:39] by the way, like a common charismatic [37:42] way of talking, like this is the new [37:44] wine skin. Like the new wine skin is [37:46] it's the kingdom in the spirit. It's the [37:48] ministry that Jesus inaugurated in [37:50] coming. It's not like every time a [37:53] Johnny-come-lately comes around and [37:55] gives you a new way to shake to the Holy [37:57] Ghost that that's the new wine skin. [37:59] Like the new wine skin isn't your new [38:01] ministry idea. The new wine skin isn't [38:03] your new preaching style [38:05] or your new church government that you [38:08] invented [38:09] that has, [38:11] you know, apostles and prophets as the [38:12] bosses of the elders, if you even have [38:14] elders, which you probably don't. Like, [38:16] no, that's not a new wine skin. The new [38:18] wine skin is the ministry Jesus [38:20] inaugurated of the kingdom of God [38:23] characterized by the coming of the [38:24] spirit. That's what the Gospels teach. [38:28] But yeah, charismatics love to do that. [38:29] Hey, here's the latest new wineskin. No, [38:32] no, that that ain't it. [38:33] >> [snorts] [38:33] >> Uh, you want to keep going? [38:35] >> Yeah, it's a different kind of wine. [38:37] They're just whining about religion they [38:39] don't like. Okay, [38:40] um, here we go. Uh, next clip. This is [38:43] going to move us into section two, uh, [38:46] which is going to, man, discredit [38:48] anything that looks different than the [38:49] model that Katherine has set up. [38:51] >> Ephesians chapter 2 verse 20 says that [38:52] the church is built on the foundation of [38:54] the apostles and prophets with Christ [38:55] Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. [38:57] This scripture reveals the foundation of [38:58] the body of Christ, the apostles and [39:00] prophets with Jesus as the chief [39:01] cornerstone. God intends that the [39:02] apostles and prophets serve as the [39:03] foundation providing stability, [39:05] strength, and lasting support for the [39:07] rest of the body. Just as a house built [39:08] without a solid foundation will [39:09] eventually collapse under wind or heat, [39:11] so too will the church falter when it [39:12] rejects God's design. One of the main [39:13] reasons the church of today has largely [39:15] drifted from God's original blueprint [39:16] and why miracles, signs, and wonders are [39:18] now rare compared to what we read about [39:19] the Acts church. It's because much of [39:20] the body of Christ has rejected this [39:21] foundation. By doing so, the strength [39:23] and impact of the entire church has been [39:24] weakened. With only three of the [39:25] fivefold offices functioning, the body [39:26] of Christ has remained incomplete [39:27] lacking the strength to walk in [39:28] consistent victory as powerful vessels [39:29] of God. The ministries of the apostle [39:30] and prophet are essential to bring this [39:32] maturity. They carry the authority to [39:33] release God's power, break the [39:34] strongholds of the enemy, strengthen [39:36] believers, and impart vision and [39:37] direction to the church. [39:40] >> Okay, um, Roundtree, I'm going to let [39:42] you go first. I know you're chomping at [39:43] the bit. Also, think concise thoughts. [39:45] We're trying to get done by five, okay? [39:47] That's that's the the shot clock you put [39:49] on me. So, uh, Ephesians 4:20, apostles [39:52] and prophets lay the foundation. Ready, [39:53] set, go. [39:55] >> Okay. Well, I I think I've already [39:57] done a little baby exegesis of Ephesians [40:00] 2 going into Ephesians chapter 3. [40:02] Uh, I do not view this as this ongoing [40:06] While I do believe apostles and prophets [40:07] still exist, we view apostles as more [40:09] like missionaries. I mean, it means [40:11] basically sent ones. And Ephesians [40:13] 4:11-13 does indicate that, uh, [40:18] these will last this fivefold if you [40:20] want to call it that will last until we [40:22] all reach [40:23] the unity of faith and the knowledge of [40:24] the Son of God which hasn't happened yet [40:27] and probably speaks of the [40:29] maturity of the church at Christ's [40:31] return. So it sounds as though apostles [40:33] and prophets will be around [40:35] until the end yet there was a unique [40:37] role at the very beginning and that was [40:39] in establishing a gospel foundation that [40:42] Jews and Gentiles are co-heirs in the [40:44] faith. That was that revelation that [40:48] they brought was ultimately what was [40:51] foundational to the church [40:53] not that like hey a prophet has a new [40:55] vision. Now prophet has a new vision. No [40:59] modern prophets are not for establishing [41:02] doctrine. They can have fresh revelation [41:04] but not doctrinal revelation [41:07] and anyway so I'm going to stop cuz I [41:09] know that we we got to be fast so Josh [41:11] do you want to go build on that? [41:12] >> I think that's good man. I think the [41:14] only thing that's again that we have to [41:15] press here is that why do you have an [41:17] absence of miracles you know of apostles [41:18] and prophets? That's the focus. I'm [41:20] going to punch into this very next clip [41:22] because again we're going to we're going [41:23] to make good time on this. We've [41:25] basically said everything we need to say [41:27] up into this point in this clip. Let's [41:28] watch the next one. [41:29] >> What's happening in the body of Christ [41:30] today is that many pastors evangelists [41:32] and teachers cannot operate in the [41:33] prophetic or apostolic anointing the way [41:35] God wants to use them in certain [41:35] situations because they have not [41:36] accepted and respected apostles and [41:37] prophets in the body of Christ today. [41:39] Once the pastors evangelists and [41:40] teachers of today acknowledge and [41:42] respect the global revival God has [41:43] brought as well as the apostles and [41:45] prophets he has raised up. God will [41:46] start to use them in powerful ways [41:47] they've never experienced before. [41:48] Miracles will start to happen and they [41:49] will start to operate in the prophetic [41:50] anointing. People in their churches will [41:52] receive the apostolic and prophetic [41:53] ministries that they desperately need. [41:55] >> She's going to go on to tell stories [41:56] about how pastors go to her meetings a [41:58] little skeptical but once they begin to [42:00] praise the work of God that's taking [42:02] place they go home and see the same kind [42:03] of things that Catherine is claiming to [42:05] see at her church. But here's the thing [42:07] if someone was to step out and say you [42:09] know what I disagree with Catherine on [42:11] this. You know she's going to say? Uh, [42:13] those are just pastors and teachers. [42:14] Yeah. Nah, they don't have a whole lot [42:16] of anointing and they're just not coming [42:17] in line with what God is already doing. [42:19] Uh, here's the thing. You know what [42:21] people in the charismatic movement [42:23] already think about pastors and [42:24] teachers? You can go look at Danny [42:25] Silk's book, uh, Culture of Honor. [42:28] That'll give you a really good [42:29] summarization of what many charismatics [42:32] think of pastors and teachers. Uh, and [42:34] if you don't want to buy that book, you [42:35] can always go check out our YouTube [42:36] video where we talk about Culture of [42:38] Honor. And in that book, you're going to [42:39] see that Danny Silk and much of the [42:41] charismatic movement believes that [42:42] teachers are divisive. They're just [42:44] there to divide and try to make truth [42:46] claims and try to think figure out if [42:47] things are factually right or wrong when [42:50] there's a lot of nuance when it really [42:51] comes to the spirit's truth. At the end [42:53] of the day, [42:55] teachers have exhibited themselves as [42:56] individuals who have discernment. And [42:59] here, one [snorts] of the things that [42:59] Katherine is doing is cutting off the [43:01] body of Christ from that discernment. [43:03] You shouldn't listen to people who [43:04] aren't walking in power. The reason [43:06] they're not walking in power is because [43:07] they're just teachers. They're just [43:08] pastors. They're not really apostolic [43:11] nor prophetic. You're going to see [43:12] claims like this all throughout the [43:14] book. Roundtree, any thoughts? [43:16] >> Yeah, it's funny. It almost sounds like [43:19] a cessationist argument that, hey, [43:21] apostles and prophets, they're the ones [43:23] who did the miracles, mostly apostles, [43:25] and they're since they're gone, we don't [43:27] have the miracles anymore. That's one of [43:28] the [43:29] uh, one of the art cessationist [43:31] arguments, but she uses it in the [43:33] reverse direction to say, well, since [43:34] these are still around, we're going to [43:36] have miracles. But, what we would say at [43:38] Remnant Radio is actually a lot of [43:40] miracles were performed by non-apostles, [43:43] non-prophets uh, throughout the [43:45] scripture. I mean, you look at the [43:46] church in Galatians, it's like, you [43:48] know, it speaks about God doing miracles [43:50] among you by faith. In the church in [43:53] Corinth, 1 Corinthians chapter 12, God [43:56] gives gifts of miracles, gifts of [43:58] healings, gifts of tongues, [44:00] uh, and so on. And it's it's the analogy [44:04] that he uses is the is the body of [44:06] Christ. Like, this is just something [44:07] that God distributes. 1 Corinthians [44:09] 12:11, the Holy Spirit distributes as he [44:11] determines. And so, this is just [44:13] something that exists within the body of [44:15] Christ. It's not something that is [44:17] locked in to apostles and prophets. You [44:20] have uh Philip who was called Philip the [44:22] evangelist, not Philip the apostle, not [44:24] Philip the prophet. Uh you have Stephen [44:27] who's along with Philip a table server, [44:29] and yet he's doing great signs, wonders, [44:31] and miracles. And so, this idea that you [44:34] pretty much have to be an apostle or [44:35] prophet to to do the awesome stuff, [44:37] uh no, I don't see it. So, that's what I [44:40] would say. [44:43] >> Yeah, and I think that again, um [44:46] God, man. Wait. [44:48] This is doing the thing that Paul says [44:49] not to do in the body of Christ. In 1 [44:51] Corinthians 12:13 and 14, to look at [44:53] yourselves as superior or inferior based [44:56] on your gifting. The Holy Spirit gives [44:58] gives as he wills, not based on your [44:59] character, not based on who you're [45:01] submitted to, and and whose anointing [45:03] you're coming under, who's a Paul or [45:05] who's of Apollos? Do you serve Paul? Did [45:07] Paul die for you? Did Did Did Did Paul [45:10] lay down his life and and give you new [45:11] life? No, Christ did. We follow him. [45:14] We've received his spirit, not the [45:15] spirit of a Paul, not the spirit of [45:17] Apollos. And And what she's doing is [45:19] she's encouraging people to make [45:20] distinctions amongst believers and to [45:21] judge them based off of those spiritual [45:23] gifts, the very thing that the [45:24] scriptures command us not to do. [45:27] Okay, I'm pumping on to the next clip. [45:29] >> Jesus was revealing, I have come to show [45:30] you a new way, the true way. This is the [45:32] new wine. But he warned that they could [45:33] not hold on to their old wineskins and [45:34] receive the new wine at the same time. [45:35] Old wineskins symbolize the rigid [45:37] man-made traditions and doctrines they [45:38] had clung to. The new wine represented [45:39] the teaching of Jesus, his way, the true [45:40] revelation of God's word and his ways. [45:42] Today, many believers have unknowingly [45:44] embraced the wrong doctrine. The new [45:45] wine has largely been lost in the body [45:46] of Christ, and the old wine has crept [45:47] back in. To receive the new wine, you [45:49] must be willing to let go of what you [45:50] think you know about God and his word, [45:51] and begin afresh. [45:53] >> There you have it. So, what's the new [45:54] wine? Uh well, it it certainly includes [45:57] the ministry of apostles and prophets. [45:59] We'll see that in this quote. Um if it [46:01] wasn't in the specific quote that we [46:04] have here, it is in the larger quote. [46:06] You can find it in the show notes under [46:08] full citations under the second tab of [46:10] the Google Doc. When you jump over to [46:12] Patreon, you can get access to those [46:14] show notes. But here, she is claiming [46:16] that this old wine new wine skins [46:19] passage that Jesus is referring to, she [46:21] actually gets some of the exegesis right [46:23] in referring to fasting. That's what [46:26] this is about. But then she takes a [46:27] giant leap into applying it to all sorts [46:29] of things including church leadership, [46:32] including communion, including altar [46:33] calls, etc., etc., etc. She makes a real [46:37] big mountain out of this molehill of new [46:39] wine and new wine skins opposed to old [46:43] wine [46:44] in new wine skins. But here, she says [46:47] this phrase, "To receive the new wine, [46:49] you must be willing to let go of what [46:51] you think you know about God and his [46:54] word and his word and begin afresh." So [46:58] again, if you've got any kind of [46:59] experience with the scriptures, you've [47:01] got some kind of understanding of [47:02] discernment any knowledge of hey, this [47:04] is a false teaching, that's a false [47:05] teaching. She's just saying hit command [47:08] A delete. Just erase the whole thing. No [47:11] necessito any discernment. No necessito [47:14] theology. [47:15] >> [laughter] [47:15] >> No necessito [47:17] more wine. The new wine skin. [47:21] >> Has anyone ever told you that? [47:22] >> Thanks, buddy. I appreciate that. Yeah, [47:24] I'm really working on it. [47:26] Um [47:27] It maybe it's just tongue speech. I [47:28] don't know. I'm I'm really fired up [47:29] here. Just [47:31] No, I'm just kidding. Okay. Listen, this [47:34] is a problem. When you're telling people [47:36] who are out there, hey, you should [47:37] distrust all of the stuff that's going [47:39] on there. Those are just pastors. They [47:40] don't really have the anointing. You [47:42] really just need to let go of all of the [47:44] theology that you have and really just [47:46] cling fast to this new wine skin. She's [47:48] going to go out of her way later to say [47:50] that, you know, those apostles and [47:52] prophets who are over you, you've got to [47:53] cherish their words as the very words of [47:56] God. You've got to cherish them as a [47:58] gift, and this is really important [48:00] because again here any former teaching, [48:03] you get rejected and then the new [48:04] teaching that comes down from apostles [48:06] and prophets or new revelation, you need [48:07] to cling to them as if they're the very [48:09] words of God, which are a blessing for [48:11] you and your prosperity. Okay, I've [48:13] monologued long enough. Rountree, your [48:15] thoughts. [48:16] >> Yeah, it's a really dangerous statement [48:19] for her to say that to get the new wine, [48:21] you have to be willing to let go of what [48:23] you think you know about God and his [48:25] word and begin afresh. Like what if what [48:27] you know about God and his word is [48:30] accurate orthodox doctrine? Just forget [48:33] about it? Begin afresh? [48:35] Uh [48:36] no. No, what we need is right doctrine. [48:38] And if you leave right doctrine, you go [48:40] into wrong doctrine, then you have no [48:43] access to the new wine. So absolutely. [48:45] Like Jesus' criticism of the Pharisees [48:48] was never like [48:49] uh [48:50] like like he was never like, "Hey, you [48:52] need to just abandon right doctrine." In [48:54] fact, on a lot of things, the Pharisees [48:56] had right and accurate doctrine. For [48:58] instance, with the resurrection. Um the [49:01] main problem with the Pharisees was that [49:02] they were hypocrites. So anyway, but [49:04] this idea that you just need to forget [49:06] right doctrine, um man, that's really [49:09] dangerous. She Now, she didn't use those [49:10] words, but forget what you know about [49:12] God's word. [49:13] That's real dangerous. [49:15] >> Yeah, we've already watched her receive [49:17] praise from people and attribute to her [49:19] certain praises that should only go to [49:21] Christ. We've seen her over and over say [49:24] things like I would never leave my [49:25] spiritual father, implying that people [49:26] who were under her should never leave [49:28] their spiritual father because or mother [49:30] in this case because that anointing [49:31] would be broken and no longer flow to [49:33] them. [49:34] When you have a person who has a clearly [49:37] high control environment where they're [49:38] manipulating the people of God to come [49:40] to them in order to get to God, and then [49:42] you say in that environment that that [49:44] that you should tell all of those people [49:46] to, you know, control alt delete [49:48] everything that came before, man, that [49:50] is a recipe for disaster. And I think [49:53] when you look through these citations, [49:55] again, you're going to see this is the [49:56] new framework, anything under it should [49:58] be discouraged and disbelieved because [50:00] it's inferior anointings. Then, you're [50:03] going to see an even further [50:05] removal of any kind of possibility of [50:07] disagreement. We've already touched on [50:08] some of that already, but I think it [50:11] will continue. [50:12] Rountree, was there a quote here that [50:14] was removed by chance? [50:16] >> Uh [50:17] maybe I accidentally pushed [50:19] control-alt-delete. I don't know. [50:21] >> Yeah, I kept saying it over and over and [50:23] he did it. Well, here's the next clip. [50:24] We'll see. [50:25] >> Some believe that being judgmental, [50:26] walking in pride, and lacking the power [50:27] of God in the church is the right way. [50:28] This is the old wine they have come to [50:29] enjoy, just as the Pharisees did. It is [50:31] crucial to recognize the temptation of [50:32] the old wine and to guard yourself from [50:33] being influenced by those still drinking [50:35] from it, no matter how large their [50:36] platform, how eloquently they speak, or [50:37] how charismatic they may appear. [50:38] Remember, the road is narrow. Many will [50:40] prefer the old wine, convinced that [50:41] their way is right, but that path leads [50:43] to spiritual death and the tragedy of [50:44] missing revival. [50:45] >> Okay, that's the first quote from [50:47] chapter five. I'm going to quote another [50:48] one from chapter nine before we get to [50:50] commentary. [50:50] >> When you remain silent and do not stand [50:52] with God's moving and his servants, you [50:53] are holding people back from being [50:53] delivered, healed, and encountering the [50:55] transforming power of God that leads to [50:56] repentance and new life. To talk about [50:57] Jesus is not enough. To lead a ministry, [51:00] yet refuse to stand with what God is [51:01] doing in his revival, is not acceptable [51:02] before God. If you are attempting to be [51:03] after his heart, but minister from your [51:04] own way, your words are empty and your [51:06] ministry is in vain. [51:08] >> Yo, I know I played the first clip and I [51:10] have to give commentary to it, but that [51:11] second clip is crazy. Talking about [51:14] Jesus is not enough. To lead a ministry, [51:17] yet to refuse to stand with what God is [51:20] doing in his revival is not acceptable [51:22] before God. She is literally say And [51:25] then she calls them vain. She says to [51:27] not stand with them is vain. But what [51:29] she's saying is if you don't give me a [51:32] pat on the back for the revival that I'm [51:34] doing and you don't stand with me, like [51:36] you're vain. You're asking for praise [51:39] and approval from other ministers. [51:41] You're the vain one. What are we even [51:43] talking about? I'm taking crazy pills [51:46] here, but you remove any kind of [51:48] disagreement when you see one. This is [51:51] just an old charismatic way of thinking. [51:53] This is an old wineskin. And then two, [51:56] you're standing against what God is [51:58] doing by remaining silent. So So one, [52:01] yeah, you can't say anything against it [52:03] cuz that's an old wineskin. But But not [52:05] only can you not say something against [52:06] it, you can't even remain silent cuz if [52:09] you remain silent, that's something that [52:11] God will not tolerate because you're [52:13] just being vain. [52:15] I got other quotes in here that I didn't [52:17] have time to pull because again, this is [52:19] going to be a super long video. But [52:21] she'll say that those who don't side [52:23] with what God is doing in this new [52:25] revival are self-righteous, that they [52:27] are prideful, that they are pharisaical. [52:29] So she will use any attempt to write [52:31] people off as if any individual who [52:34] disagrees is not of God. Which again, I [52:37] guess if you've deleted all of your [52:38] discernment, that that could make sense. [52:40] >> Yeah. Yeah, and what she calls an old [52:43] wineskin, here's her definition. [52:46] People who are judgmental, walking in [52:48] pride, lacking the power of God in the [52:49] church. This is not the right way. This [52:51] is the old wineskin that they have come [52:53] to enjoy just like the Pharisees. Okay, [52:56] so for her, she's defining old wineskins [52:59] as being judgmental, proud, and lacking [53:02] power. Now first of all, we've pointed [53:03] out numerous instances of power in her [53:06] ministry. [53:07] And honestly, judgmentalness, she's [53:09] criticizing everybody else except [53:10] herself. And and not being [53:13] self-reflective, and there've been a lot [53:15] of concerns expressed, but she's not [53:17] engaging with them. She just calls them [53:19] Pharisees and dismisses them. [53:21] But to say that that's the definition of [53:23] an old wineskin, well, exegetically, the [53:25] old wineskin was the old covenant [53:28] structures. It wasn't just like what was [53:30] in the Pharisees' hearts. It was the the [53:34] old covenant structures that couldn't [53:36] contain the new covenant or the kingdom [53:39] that Jesus was bringing [53:42] and his ministry. And so she's actually [53:44] misdefined it and she's misdefined it in [53:47] a way to ostracize [53:50] maybe millions of people in the body of [53:52] Christ. [53:53] Maybe everyone that's not her. [53:56] Maybe everyone that's not belonging to [53:58] her ministry, they're old wine skins. So [54:00] she mis exegetes a text [54:03] in order to ostracize people and promote [54:06] herself. [54:07] So that would be my problem. [54:10] >> Yeah, it's again calling other people [54:12] vain when it's just putting your vanity [54:14] on display. [54:15] You know, telling people that you know, [54:17] being judgmental [54:19] is really an old wine skin while you [54:20] judge them. Like here, look, I'm I'm all [54:23] about using right judgment. But you [54:25] can't say don't judge [54:29] because it's it's like saying there's no [54:30] truth. Well, is that true? Well, well, [54:32] telling someone you're being judgmental, [54:34] you shouldn't judge, you're exercising [54:36] judgment when you're telling them not to [54:37] be judgmental. You've discerned what [54:39] they're doing and you're saying it's [54:41] wrong. That is the definition. So so she [54:44] is she is having her cake and eating it [54:47] too as the saying goes. And she is [54:49] trying to say on one hand we shouldn't [54:51] be doing this while her herself is doing [54:53] that very thing. Um and this is what [54:56] Paul warns us about in the New [54:57] Testament, people who are hypocrites as [54:59] it relates to their own teachings and [55:01] doctrines. Roger, do you want to watch [55:02] the next clip or do you have any [55:04] follow-up thoughts? [55:05] >> Uh yeah, I was just I was looking for it [55:08] really fast but I'll just I'll just put [55:10] it. But yeah, what I was going to say [55:11] was when when Paul's apostleship is [55:14] challenged, he doesn't just [55:17] say [55:18] yes, but I was appointed by Apostle [55:21] Peter or, you know, the the Elijah over [55:25] our ministry anointed me, therefore no [55:27] one can contest me. Like he didn't say [55:29] the kinds of things she says. When [55:31] Paul's apostleship was contested, you [55:34] know what he pointed to? [55:36] Second Corinthians 11, how much he [55:37] suffered. He's like, I've been [55:39] shipwrecked. I've been stoned. I've been [55:41] left for dead. [55:43] Uh I've been rejected and beaten and all [55:46] these different forms of suffering. [55:49] And he says this is the defense of his [55:50] This is the defense of his apostleship. [55:53] And so all the like I look at Katherine [55:56] Katherine Krick and she's [55:58] I would like to hear like how have you [55:59] suffered? I mean the claim to be an [56:01] apostle is a big claim. And when we look [56:03] at all the apostles, they all suffered [56:06] considerably. [56:07] This more than anything is the mark of [56:09] the apostle. She makes it out to all be [56:11] all about the signs and wonders and that [56:13] really I guess that just means people [56:15] shake when she points at them or pushes [56:17] them to the ground. But uh what I want [56:19] to see is the mark of suffering. Cuz [56:21] that's the real mark of an apostle. And [56:23] for anyone out there like I don't expect [56:25] Katherine Krick's listening this. If [56:26] you're out there and you're one of [56:27] Katherine Krick's followers, just uh [56:29] just think about that. [56:31] Read Second Corinthians 11. Read Read [56:33] Paul's [56:34] uh defense of his own apostleship. [56:37] And compare it with her. How much has [56:39] she suffered? Because to me it looks [56:41] like she gets a higher and higher [56:43] pedestal and all these people are [56:44] praising her like she's Jesus Christ. [56:47] And uh and I just want to know where's [56:49] the suffering cuz I don't see it. [56:52] >> That's right. Okay, I'm clipping the [56:54] next next clip. We've only got four [56:56] more. We'll see if we can make it [56:57] through. [56:58] >> Being planted is like receiving the [56:59] perfect spiritual nutrients, serving [57:00] well-balanced meals prepared by God [57:01] himself through your leaders. The [57:02] opposite of being planted is what I call [57:03] the spiritual buffet, which isn't [57:04] healthy for anyone. This happens when [57:05] believers listen to a teaching here and [57:06] another there, sampling from every voice [57:08] and ministry. This approach often leads [57:09] to confusion because not every teacher [57:10] is anointed or assigned to feed you. [57:11] Some may truly be called by God yet not [57:12] called to help you fulfill your specific [57:13] assignment. Others may not be called at [57:15] all and their old wine and wrong [57:16] doctrines can lead you astray. Still [57:17] others may carry a mixture of old and [57:18] new wine, truth mixed with error, and [57:20] receiving that mixture can hinder your [57:21] growth and keep you from receiving the [57:22] solid simple truth that sets you free. [57:24] You are called to be a revival warrior [57:25] in God's revival army. There are many [57:26] teachers today who have not accepted the [57:28] move of God in this revival and their [57:29] teachings will not equip you to become [57:30] who God has called you to be. [57:32] >> I don't know if you caught it, but [57:34] again, here we go. Here's fivefold is [57:35] the thing. Hey, don't listen to anybody [57:37] else. They're just not anointed. Hey, if [57:39] anyone disagrees with me, they're just [57:41] vain and prideful and judgy in that old [57:43] wineskin. But now, there's another [57:45] level. The other level is you need to be [57:47] coming to one place and one place only. [57:51] You shouldn't be going to other sources [57:53] because if you start, you know, [57:54] spreading out, they're probably not [57:55] anointed equip you. Maybe they're even [57:57] anointed of God. They're just not [57:58] anointed of God to equip you. And and [58:00] and you know, then there's other [58:01] teachers. They've got just a little poop [58:03] in the brownie. They got a little bit of [58:04] false doctrine. And that could be [58:05] confusing for you. You really just need [58:07] to set up under your apostle and your [58:10] prophet. Can you see what's happening? [58:11] Uh well, for one, she's written a book. [58:13] This is a book. Does she think that only [58:15] people in her church are going to read [58:16] this book? Or do you think that she is [58:19] expecting to reach other people with it? [58:21] That she is maybe one of those other [58:23] voices that she's saying you shouldn't [58:24] go and listen to. So again, she's [58:25] holding herself to a different standard [58:28] while simultaneously encouraging being [58:30] people who are ministered to by this [58:32] book to find one source. And again, I'm [58:35] going to argue that one source is [58:37] probably Catherine. Because Catherine [58:39] has said over and over that she has got [58:41] this unique anointing and we're going to [58:43] see that when she talks about her own [58:44] wineskin here in a moment in the great [58:45] revivals that, you know, she has been [58:47] seeing in her ministry and the people [58:49] that are getting healed and delivered as [58:51] the most anointed, wouldn't you want to [58:53] go sit under her ministry? This is what [58:55] is being communicated. This is just apex [58:58] cult-like activity. When you begin to [59:00] cut people off from other resources that [59:02] might criticize the main source. Uh hey, [59:06] Catherine, you know, she's she's got all [59:09] of the right answers and don't listen to [59:11] anyone else who might poison the well [59:14] and and in your beliefs about that [59:15] person. We I remember going back and I [59:17] watched it right before our podcast [59:19] today, watching the old Catherine Krick [59:20] video. And it's like, man, she just [59:22] enscripturated this into a book. In her [59:24] original video, she was like, we should [59:26] never judge and we should never correct [59:27] other Christians except when they're [59:30] gossiping about our leaders and [59:32] slandering our leaders. It's like never [59:34] correct, but if they're saying stuff [59:35] about me, you can shut that down, which [59:38] I thought was hilarious. Okay, [59:40] Roundtree, [59:42] if I've left any more meat on that bone, [59:43] feel free to pick it dry. [59:45] >> [laughter] [59:46] >> Sorry, I was just typing into the chat, [59:48] John Mark Baker, are you an apostle? Cuz [59:50] he said [snorts] he was suffering as he [59:51] was watching this. [59:52] >> [laughter] [59:53] >> Uh okay. So, I want to come back to what [59:56] you said a minute ago about like the the [59:59] the isolative tendency and you called it [60:01] a cult. Like if you look at just any [60:02] level of abuse, [60:05] abusers control people by silencing [60:08] them. So, if it's a you know, if it's a [60:11] sexual abuse of a child, it's uh you [60:14] know, hey, don't tell this, it's going [60:15] to be our secret, [60:17] uh which the same thing can happen even [60:19] in non-children context where there are [60:21] power dynamics at play. Don't tell [60:23] anyone. If you tell anyone, you know, [60:25] like I I remember Ravi Zacharias, if you [60:27] tell anyone, I'm going to kill myself. I [60:28] mean, he didn't use those exact words, [60:30] but he implied it. And so, uh and so, [60:32] it's using [60:34] >> you attribute that to the wrong source? [60:36] >> Ravi Zacharias? [60:38] >> I think you're I think Ravi Zacharias [60:40] died. [60:42] I think you're referring to the [60:44] Word of Faith Mana guy. [60:46] >> No, the Ravi did it, too. Ravi did it. [60:50] Yeah, he did. Uh he's like, I'll have to [60:52] bid this life farewell or something like [60:55] that. I remember reading it and no one [60:56] cared at that time. That was that was [60:58] out there before he died, actually. [61:01] Anyway, [snorts] [61:02] here's the point. So, people try to [61:04] control these whatever power they they [61:07] can. It can be the power of self-pity, [61:08] it can be the power of position [61:10] position, whatever it is, [61:12] uh they use their power to silence [61:13] somebody. It happens in uh spiritual [61:16] abuse situations, any abuse situation, [61:19] they love to control and to isolate. I [61:21] remember when I was at the University of [61:22] Texas in Austin, and there was a cult [61:24] group on campus. They would make people [61:26] cut off of their families in order to [61:29] receive discipleship because Jesus says, [61:31] "Hate your father and mother." What they [61:32] were really trying to do was to try to [61:34] prevent any sort of sense or reason to [61:36] be spoken into these students' lives, [61:38] and they would cut them off, and they [61:40] would teach them false doctrine. And so, [61:42] that's exactly the same kind of thing. [61:45] She's She's literally telling that you [61:46] have to be planted with me, [61:48] uh and with my kind of teaching, and [61:51] stay away from those other mixed sources [61:53] who aren't okay with what I'm doing. [61:56] Guys, this is spiritual abuse. This is [61:58] controlling abusive behavior. I want to [62:01] teach you to identify the signs. If [62:03] somebody's telling you don't listen Like [62:05] I I Okay, so I I pastor a church. I [62:08] don't tell people like, "Hey, don't [62:09] listen to certain Don't listen to other [62:11] preachers. Only listen to me." Like I'm [62:13] not afraid of them listening to other [62:14] preachers. I love it. Like if they're [62:16] going to download a Matt Chandler or Tim [62:18] Keller or a whoever, like I'm glad for [62:21] them to listen to other preachers. Now, [62:23] if someone's a heretic, I might say [62:25] like, "Hey, don't listen to Brian Zahnd [62:27] because Brian Zahnd teaches heresy, and [62:30] the Apostle Paul might say the same [62:31] thing." I'll call out someone specific, [62:33] but uh [62:35] and by the way, we have episodes on [62:36] Brian Zahnd you can go and listen to to [62:38] those. But, my point being, she just [62:41] makes this like [62:42] general statement about like pretty much [62:45] anyone who's not me, don't listen to [62:46] them. That's spiritual abuse. [62:49] >> That's right. That's right. It's super [62:51] super bad. I thought you were talking [62:52] about Perry Stone a moment ago, uh but [62:54] yes, Ravi Zacharias and Perry Stone [62:56] apparently have made similar claims. [62:57] We've uh done reviews of Perry. I've got [63:00] three more clips. Let's push through [63:01] them. I got clip number 11 here. Uh [63:03] again, don't go anywhere else. We got [63:05] that new wine. [63:06] >> There are many believers who have not [63:07] fully surrendered to him. There will [63:08] always be people who are not pleased [63:09] with what you do for God. Those who [63:10] don't believe in him. The lukewarm whose [63:11] eyes remain closed, and the modern-day [63:12] Pharisees who resist the move of the [63:13] spirit. God has called me to a unique [63:14] path. A A calling that few have walked. [63:16] He has called me to minister in a way [63:17] that looks very different from how most [63:19] people minister. In a world where old [63:20] wine, or a mixture of old and new wine, [63:21] is often the norm, he has called me to [63:22] walk fully in the new wine. [63:24] >> Oh god. [63:25] >> Katherine, your vanity showing. I know [63:27] you don't think it is, but I can see it. [63:29] Hey, listen, don't not all that old wine [63:32] skin stuff. You don't need all that. And [63:34] for the reader who's listening, I just [63:36] want you to know, I've been called to [63:37] this unique anointing. I'm pretty [63:39] special. Now, I don't know if people A [63:41] lot of people don't know this, but I'm [63:43] I'm pretty awesome. And you should [63:45] follow my ministry so you get that new [63:47] wine, that good wine. Uh Rose wild. [63:51] Okay, round three. I went last time, you [63:52] go this time. [63:53] >> [laughter] [63:54] >> Oh my gosh. Uh I was just looking up [63:57] really quick um some of these like [63:59] proud, arrogant, boastful marks of false [64:02] teachers. [64:03] Uh 2 Peter 2:10, Peter calls false [64:06] teachers bold and willful. [64:09] Uh verse 18, speaking loud boasts of [64:11] folly. [64:12] Um [64:14] Jude talks about [64:16] um [64:17] Uh [64:18] >> Colossians I'll I'll help you while you [64:20] look at Colossians chapter two will say [64:22] that those who are going about vain [64:23] imaginations, right? Being puffed up by [64:25] the sensuous mind, going on about dreams [64:27] and visions, while not holding fast to [64:29] the head that is Christ. [64:31] >> Yep. [64:32] Uh Jude 16, they are loud-mouthed [64:34] boasters. [64:36] Uh 1 Timothy chapter 6, it says he is [64:38] puffed up with conceit and understands [64:41] nothing. Uh Titus 1, uh it Uh probably [64:45] not the best. Okay, uh 2 Timothy 3, [64:48] lovers of self, proud, arrogant, swollen [64:51] with conceit. Now, that's just generally [64:53] people uh in the last days. [64:55] Uh so, not just teachers, but it is [64:58] something that we can watch out for. 3 [65:00] John, uh John warns of uh Diotrephes who [65:05] likes to put himself first. Guys, it if [65:09] if Katherine Krick if John was writing a [65:11] letter today, could he not say Katherine [65:13] Krick loves to put herself first? Listen [65:16] Listen to the sequence. Apostles are the [65:18] very best. I'm an apostle. Anyone who [65:21] goes to a ministry that's not mine and [65:23] that disapproves of my ministry, you're [65:25] getting old wine or a mixture of old and [65:28] new wine, but I am unique. I am special. [65:32] Few people have walked my path and you [65:36] follow me and you will get the flow of [65:39] blessing and prosperity in your life. [65:41] Guys, Mark can avoid. Mark can avoid. [65:45] This is Katherine Krick who likes to put [65:47] herself first. That's third John. But [65:50] I'm just substituting a name cuz it's [65:52] the same thing and there are more verses [65:53] that I could go to. [65:55] >> Bro, this is just wildness. It's so [65:57] crazy. Like it It's not so often when [66:00] you're like, I [66:01] I don't think this person's a safe [66:02] person. And they just set it up on a tee [66:05] ball, you know, they just put that like, [66:06] "Oh, here, I'm ready for you to knock it [66:07] out of the park, Josh. I've written all [66:09] the things just for you to just bash." [66:11] Cuz it's like, this is so blatantly [66:14] false. And And now, I want to move into [66:16] our fifth stage. Again, we we've walked [66:18] through a couple of different [66:19] argumentations that I would say would [66:21] make this really culty, make this a [66:23] high-control environment. Again, [66:26] apostles and prophets are the big ones. [66:27] Anyone who looks different, it's an old [66:29] wineskin. Remove any kind of [66:31] disagreement because those are just [66:32] teachers. They're not super anointed [66:34] like I am. Preventing people from going [66:36] anywhere else because, well, you know, [66:38] you've got to go to the source. You [66:39] can't be listening to all these other [66:41] teachers and and I've got this really [66:43] unique calling that I'm supposed to walk [66:44] in. You don't need to go anywhere else. [66:46] And then finally, she's going to remind [66:47] really strike home the pecking order of [66:50] authority in these next two clips and [66:51] maybe we'll just play them back-to-back. [66:53] >> For example, when my spiritual father [66:55] anointed me as an apostle, I did not [66:56] approach it with pride or confidence in [66:56] my experience. I hadn't gone to Bible [66:58] college and I felt totally inadequate. I [66:59] knew I would need to depend fully on [67:00] God. With humility, I asked my spiritual [67:01] father many questions, listened with a [67:02] teachable heart, received prophetic [67:03] direction, and accepted correction. In [67:05] this relationship, if he is like Elijah, [67:06] then I'm like Elisha, The spiritual [67:08] child learning and receiving. First [67:09] Kings chapter 19 verses 19 to 21 and [67:10] Second Kings chapter two. No matter how [67:11] many years I minister or how much honor [67:13] I receive, I will always recognize my [67:15] place as an Elisha, never placing myself [67:16] on the same level as my spiritual [67:17] father. For God to raise up pure, [67:19] humble, servant-hearted leaders, these [67:20] leaders must first be Elishas. They [67:21] cannot see themselves as equals or even [67:23] close to equals of their Elijah's. God's [67:25] process of refining and transforming a [67:26] servant, preparing them to become an [67:27] anointed fivefold minister, takes time. [67:28] This is why he does not anoint several [67:30] ministers simultaneously. Instead, in [67:31] his perfect order, God first anoints and [67:33] sends an apostle to start a church and [67:34] then raises up the other offices of [67:35] ministry to build and equip the body of [67:37] Christ. [67:38] >> Dude, do you want to just like do that [67:40] one or do you want to play both? What do [67:42] you want to do? There's so much there. [67:44] >> Uh, [67:45] I don't know, man. Uh, yeah, just keep [67:47] rolling, I guess. Keep rolling, okay. [67:49] >> It's also important to stay within God's [67:50] order when it comes to starting a [67:51] ministry or ministering to others on a [67:52] platform such as a livestream. Don't [67:53] rush the process that God is taking you [67:54] through or begin a ministry prematurely. [67:55] When you start a ministry, you are [67:56] stepping onto the front lines where the [67:57] devil will send attacks that only those [67:58] truly called and prepared by God can [67:59] withstand. The proper order is to first [68:01] consult your spiritual leader before [68:02] beginning a ministry. This ensures that [68:03] you are moving in God's timing and will [68:04] and that you remain in submission to the [68:05] leadership he has placed over you. In [68:06] doing so, you build rather than scatter [68:08] and you stay aligned with the vision God [68:09] has given to the ministry you are part [68:10] of. Instead of moving forward with your [68:11] own separate vision, it's important to [68:12] stay in line with God's order because [68:13] stepping out of it opens a door for the [68:14] enemy to drain you and divert you from [68:16] your calling. Stay diligent to remain [68:17] teachable and rooted in the New Wine [68:18] doctrine. Excitement and zeal and [68:19] revival are beautiful, but they can also [68:21] bring the temptation to act in ways that [68:22] are out of order and lead to chaos. True [68:23] revival is not sustained by wild [68:24] emotion, but by hearts that are fully [68:26] surrendered to God's order and refined [68:27] by his fire. [68:31] >> Okay. Josh, why don't you start? [68:33] >> Okay. Um, I just want to start with that [68:35] first one. Remember at the very [68:37] beginning of the the video that we did [68:39] today, uh, in chapter what is it? [68:41] Chapter four, she just talks about how, [68:43] you know, we're all called to teach and [68:45] to to do evangelism, but we can't all [68:47] just like heal the sick and cast out [68:49] demons and and do the really cool stuff [68:51] because we need apostles and prophets [68:52] over our lives in order to do that and [68:54] really they're the only ones that can do [68:55] the really super stuff. [68:57] Maybe if we sit under their ministry [68:58] long enough, we can receive that [69:00] anointing, but then you ever see her say [69:03] you probably shouldn't start a podcast [69:04] without permission. [69:05] Um you know, because you're going to [69:07] paint a target on your back. Well, I [69:09] thought you just told everyone [69:10] >> permission, Josh, when you started [69:12] Remnant Radio? [69:13] >> Uh yeah, I talked to my leadership about [69:15] it. Um but it was more of a procedural [69:17] thing, probably, than it was a specific [69:20] permission sort of thing. [69:21] Um I don't I don't I don't think I asked [69:24] like expecting them to say no. I'm like, [69:26] "Hey, I'd like to do this podcast." And [69:27] at the time I was using a space in my [69:29] local church, so it made sense to ask. [69:31] Um yeah, so there there's that, but also [69:34] uh [69:35] she's she's saying, "Hey, you can't [69:37] teach you can't do evange You can teach [69:38] you can do evangelism, but here she's [69:40] saying you can't even do a podcast [69:41] without permission." So like [69:43] what if someone is [69:45] doing evangelism on their podcast? Like [69:46] what if they're like teaching people the [69:48] Bible on their podcast? The thing that [69:50] you said they can all do, you're saying [69:51] no, you can't do that now. You actually [69:52] have to go through this pecking order [69:54] and get kind of, you know, acceptance [69:56] from the person above you, which again I [69:58] think is so fascinating that the the [70:01] idea the level to the level of control [70:04] is that like if you wanted to tell [70:05] people about Jesus on a public space, [70:08] you need permission to do that. I I bet [70:10] you I I'm not going to put money on it. [70:13] Actually, I received anonymous emails. I [70:15] I probably got 30 emails uh this week [70:18] from an individual uh who may be an [70:20] insider at Craigs Ministry uh blowing [70:22] some whistle stuff. And uh they showed [70:25] me how Craig was using a, you know, [70:27] launch party and had uh unlisted videos [70:30] that I was sent on YouTube [70:32] of uh Craig, you know, trying to rig the [70:35] New York Times bestseller, um telling [70:37] people to buy books from different [70:39] locations with buy with cash because you [70:41] then, you know, uh if you're buying a [70:43] whole bunch with one card, uh it doesn't [70:44] count towards the New York Times [70:46] bestseller. You've got to, you know, in [70:47] different locations purchase these [70:49] things. You've also got to uh oh, she [70:51] she told stories [70:52] >> Yeah, she's giving me ideas. [70:54] She's giving me some ideas for one of my [70:55] book releases. [70:56] >> That's right. Yeah, you guys buy with [70:58] cash uh from multiple locations. [71:00] One of the things that was really [71:01] interesting that they talked about was [71:02] how someone was healed of stage four [71:05] cancer by just promoting this book. [71:07] >> Oh no. [71:08] >> So it's like if you're on the launch [71:09] team, of course you're going to promote [71:10] it because oh, there's going to be [71:11] healing and blessing and power that [71:12] comes from this. Anyway, I say all this [71:14] to say this guy who seems to have to be [71:17] a credible source because he's giving [71:18] me, you know, unlisted YouTube videos [71:20] and lots of information of what's going [71:22] on behind the scenes. You know, [71:25] If memory serves me correct, one of the [71:26] the statements he was making is this a [71:27] high control environment specifically [71:29] about relationships. You know, if you're [71:31] in you've been in a charismatic space [71:33] and I've I've been in one or two where [71:35] it's really high control about any kind [71:37] of leadership, any kind of volunteer [71:38] service. You got to get it all approved, [71:40] you know, to do those sorts of things. [71:41] And if you're in that space, there's [71:43] often control over other things in your [71:45] life like what job you have. Oh, you [71:47] quit that job without talking to [71:48] leadership? Oof, you're going to be in [71:49] trouble. Oh, oh, you you you kind of [71:51] restructured your life and started [71:52] dating this person? [71:54] You talked to leadership about that? [71:56] High control environment. If you can't [71:58] even start a podcast, bro. [72:00] >> Yeah, elders have authority for [72:02] governing the affairs of the church. [72:04] They don't have authority for governing [72:06] your life. Like, hey, you can take this [72:08] job but not that job. No, no, you you [72:11] don't get to control that. [72:13] You can live here but not there. No, you [72:15] don't get to control that. Those are [72:16] their personal life decisions. Now, I'm [72:19] not saying Crick is controlling in those [72:21] ways. I am saying the amount of control [72:24] in these clips that we've seen is [72:27] concerning and therefore I would want to [72:30] know in what other ways is she trying to [72:32] control things. [72:33] That's an open question for me. [72:35] But yeah, when I listen to this, you [72:37] know, there's there's such this emphasis [72:39] on the hierarchy and what I see in Peter [72:42] in 1 Peter 5:1 is Peter who like could [72:46] have more than anyone else been like, [72:48] yo, like Jesus called me the rock, bro. [72:50] Like he could have really held onto that [72:53] and and thought of his disciples as [72:55] little underlings. But instead, 1 Peter [72:58] 5:1, he refers to himself as a fellow [73:00] elder. It's like he's actually going out [73:02] of his way to kind of not demote [73:04] himself, but to just put himself on [73:06] everybody's level. Like, "Hey, we're all [73:08] in this together." And and so hierarchy [73:12] thing continues to be a big concern to [73:15] me. Sometimes she just says things that [73:16] are wrong like, you know, our Lord [73:19] doesn't anoint several ministers at once [73:21] because she's so locked into this [73:22] Elijah-Elisha thing. She makes it the [73:24] end-all-be-all. But what about when [73:26] Jesus anoints? It says he gave authority [73:30] or Luke's version authority and power to [73:33] the 12 and then he does it again to the [73:34] 72 all at once. Oh, he only does it Like [73:38] what about Acts 13 when the Holy Spirit [73:41] says, "Set apart for me Barnabas and [73:43] Saul whom I've [73:45] you know, called to do such and such [73:47] work." So [73:47] >> Acts 2? [73:49] >> Yeah, Acts 2, 120 of them. Like God [73:52] absolutely does anoint several ministers [73:54] simultaneously, but she's so locked into [73:56] the hierarchical Elijah-Elisha model. [74:00] And even in that, it the the sort of [74:03] spiritual authority claim [74:06] is not really there. It's It's clear [74:07] that Elisha served Elijah. It It refers [74:10] to Elisha is the one who washed the [74:13] hands of Elijah. So there was that [74:15] dynamic going on. Elijah So So Elisha [74:18] did serve, but even when you see that, [74:20] that's an Old Testament model. When you [74:22] get to the New Testament, you see Jesus, [74:24] "I come to you as one who serves." Jesus [74:26] is the one who washes the feet of his [74:28] disciples. Man, I'd love to see Kathryn [74:30] Krick washing disciples' feet. I'd love [74:33] to see Kathryn Krick lowering herself [74:36] beneath the people that she serves [74:39] instead of sitting atop a platform like [74:42] in these videos we see over and over [74:43] again and receiving praise that sounds [74:47] like worship. Uh [74:49] it's actually the opposite of what we [74:51] see in the scripture. So, [74:53] >> Yeah. [74:53] >> I think that's uh yeah. [74:55] >> I want to I want to give a comment here [74:56] uh to the statement, "No matter how many [74:59] years I minister or how much honor I [75:02] receive, I will always recognize my [75:04] place as an Elisha, never placing myself [75:08] on the same level as my spiritual [75:10] father." [75:12] What's interesting here is that her [75:14] spiritual father, we know who he is. Uh [75:16] he's got some of his own scandal, uh you [75:19] know, going around. Uh but what's [75:20] interesting here is that [75:22] Creflo [75:24] can look to him and say, "Oh, he's my [75:26] father." But he does not have the same [75:28] level of influence that she does. [75:30] Um while anyone who comes out of her [75:32] ministry, she is going to claim [75:35] authority over them and what they can do [75:37] or not do because she is [75:39] got all of this influence and spiritual [75:40] authority. So, she can claim, "I'm [75:41] submitted to this guy. I I you know, I'm [75:43] I'm I'm devoted to this guy. He's my [75:45] spiritual father." While anyone who [75:47] comes out of her ministry, who tries to [75:49] get fame, who tries to get prominence, [75:51] who who starts to beginning to get any [75:52] kind of influence, she is going to claim [75:55] them as a byproduct of her ministry and [75:58] has trained them to do the same kind of [76:00] thing that their Elijah was always [76:03] Creflo and that they will never look [76:05] beyond that. They will always pay homage [76:07] to the the great and holy and righteous [76:09] Creflo who walks with great authority [76:10] and power and does that because of her [76:12] great integrity ministry. Um [76:14] while simultaneously having clips from [76:16] our prior video telling a mom that she [76:18] needs to give more money to the church [76:20] because her child is demonized and is [76:22] having seizures because she gave money [76:24] to a witch doctor or sorcerer or palm [76:27] reader or something to that effect. Uh [76:28] and now she has to give even more money [76:30] to the church in order for the child to [76:32] be healed. Uh so again, like you've got [76:34] this person who's got bad character, [76:36] who's walking in power, if you will, [76:39] while simultaneously uh [76:41] you know, that she has this power [76:43] because of her own integrity. You Over [76:46] and over what you're going to have is [76:47] you're going to have this hierarchical [76:48] system where people have to submit to [76:50] her because she has submitted to someone [76:51] else. You look at this and you go, "Oh, [76:53] look how holy she is. She submitted to [76:55] her spiritual father." But, I think [76:57] she's only using this as a ploy to get [76:59] control over others. So, that other [77:01] people will follow in suit seeing how [77:03] great and holy and righteous she is so [77:05] that they can get a glimpse of her [77:06] anointing. If you don't believe me, go [77:08] and watch our video on Mother's Day [77:10] Well, the video wasn't on Mother's Day. [77:12] Our prior video on Katherine Krick where [77:14] on Mother's Day a lot of people I think [77:16] it was 15 people 15 minutes of people [77:18] just praising Katherine Krick because of [77:20] all that she has done for them and it's [77:22] clear that they believe that the [77:24] anointing is going to come from that [77:26] level of honoring. [77:28] Bad stuff, guys. Bad stuff. Rountree, [77:31] we've gone over. I know this was not [77:33] your intention, my friend. Any closing [77:35] thoughts as we wrap this program up? [77:36] >> Look how much shorter I am. This This is [77:39] how long I've been out of it with this [77:41] sabbatical, Josh. It's like my camera's [77:43] like all [77:44] >> I think you're just getting older. And [77:45] as you get older, you're just losing [77:47] some, you know, some [77:48] >> have a birthday. I did have a birthday. [77:51] Yeah. [77:51] Anyway, [77:53] no, man. It's great episode. It's all [77:55] good. Happy to happy to hop on and then [77:57] next week I'm going to be back in the [77:59] back in the saddle, so excited to be [78:01] with you guys. So, missed missed Remnant [78:04] Radio, missed my church over the last 3 [78:06] months, but feeling good, restored, [78:09] ready to go. So, thankful to to be able [78:12] to hop on today, so [78:14] thanks, guys, and and blessings. Josh, [78:16] you have anything else to say to close [78:17] this out? [78:18] >> Oh, no, thanks for coming on, Michael. [78:20] Miss you. I'm glad you're back, man. [78:22] For those of you watching, subscribe to [78:24] the channel. Like, share, send it [78:26] around. This Wednesday, I've got Matt [78:28] Chandler coming on. [78:30] And the following week, Miller and I are [78:32] going to be doing a review on [78:35] John Bevere's book. Actually, Rountree, [78:36] you'll probably be there for that as [78:37] well if you're coming back next week. [78:38] So, [78:39] yeah, it's going to be some really good [78:40] content. Look forward to seeing you guys [78:43] then. For those of you out there, make [78:44] sure to subscribe to the video, like, [78:46] share it around for people who are, you [78:47] know, not going to watch a video [78:50] criticizing Kathryn Kuhlman. Make sure [78:51] to send it to them. [78:52] And then finally, if you're interested [78:54] in seeing real prophetic ministry that's [78:57] not manipulative, [78:58] that [78:59] will certainly bless your life but can't [79:01] promise you any prosperity, you should [79:03] come to the Remnant conference in [79:04] Houston, Texas October 1st through the [79:06] 3rd. We're not promising that it'll [79:07] solve all of your problems. We're not [79:09] promising that you'll be healthy, [79:10] wealthy, and blessed, but we are [79:12] promising. [79:14] Go ahead, Ron. What? [79:15] >> But it is a new wineskin. [79:17] >> But it is a new wineskin. We are [79:19] promising [79:20] new wineskins. [79:23] It has been a really encouraging thing [79:25] to see charismatics from different [79:26] streams. Some people who are open to the [79:29] gifts but never seen them demonstrated [79:31] in a biblical and ordered way. And then [79:34] on the other side, people who've been in [79:35] the hyper-charismatic spaces that have [79:37] been so burned. [79:38] Man, the Remnant conference has just [79:40] been healing for a whole lot of people [79:42] to see something that is, man, real and [79:44] theologically substantive, something [79:46] that can be done with integrity. So, I [79:49] encourage you if you're looking for a [79:50] new space, a new tribe if you will, join [79:54] the Remnant. It's not for everybody, but [79:57] it's pretty intense. We we really really [79:59] like it. We found our own tribe here. [80:00] So, it's been a lot of fun. Guys, thank [80:02] you so much for tuning in to this [80:03] program and we'll see you next time.  ## Highlights - Analysis: The hosts argue that a hierarchy placing apostles and prophets above other ministers can make spiritual authority difficult to challenge. - Note: Machine-written analysis of the episode's attributed theological critique; not a confirmed finding about Kathryn Krick or her ministry. - Attributed claim: The hosts characterize advice to reject prior teaching and avoid critics as isolating and controlling. - Note: This records the commentators' interpretation. Verify the complete book context, ministry practice, and subject response before reuse. - Analysis: The episode's strongest method is showing attributed excerpts, but it does not independently verify every excerpt's context or the factual allegations discussed. - Note: Evidence-grade boundary for a sensitive named-person source. - Safeguarding note: Claims involving deliverance, children, money, health, self-harm, or coercive control require primary-source verification and trauma-informed handling. - Note: General safeguarding practice derived from the source analysis; not a claim that any named person committed abuse. ## Links - [[3. Resources/Permanent Notes/Concentrated Authority Without Accountability Produces the Same Failure Patterns Across Religious and Software Ecosystems]] — evidence-with-limits: attributed excerpts describe hierarchical authority and critic isolation, not independently verified findings about the named ministry. - [[3. Resources/MOCs/NAR and Charismatic Authority Critique MOC]] — belongs-to: deliverance authority and safeguarding review.