Being Human -15 Years of Human Made  ## Metadata - Author: [[Human Made]] - Full Title: Being Human -15 Years of Human Made - Category: #articles - Document Note: --- tags: - #opensource - #companyculture - #wordpress Author: Joe, Nol, and Tom (Founders of Human Made) Source: YouTube Podcast "Being Human - 15 Years of Human Made" Reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNFXmKe0M98 date created: 2025-05-28 08:00 --- # Title: Being Human – 15 Years of Human Made: Founders Reflect on Growth, Challenges, and Culture ## Table of Contents:  - 📝 [Summary](#-summary) - 📖 [Main Content](#-main-content) - 🗒️ [Notes](#-notes) - 📖 [References](#-references) - 🗣️ [Paraphrase](#-paraphrase) - 📰 [Newsletter](#-newsletter) - ✅ [Action Items](#-action-items) - 🧪 [Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - 📊 [Methodology](#-methodology) - ❓ [Questions](#-questions) - 🔮 [Future Research](#-future-research) - 💡 [Implications](#-implications) - 🧠 [Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - 📊 [Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - 🌍 [DEIB Assessment](#-deib-diversity-equity-inclusion-and-belonging-assessment) - ✅ [Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - 🔍 [DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis-prompt) - 🔍 [SEO Evaluation](#-seo-evaluation) - 🎯 [Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### References: - [Being Human - 15 Years of Human Made Podcast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNFXmKe0M98) - Human Made website and community contributions ## 📝 Summary: This podcast episode celebrates Human Made's 15-year journey, where founders Joe, Nol, and Tom reflect on early beginnings, steady growth, cultural challenges, and key moments that shaped their company. They discuss how Human Made evolved from a small boutique agency to a leading player in the WordPress ecosystem. The founders emphasize the importance of company values, community involvement, and a collaborative culture. Challenges like scaling, transitioning roles, and maintaining core principles were critical growth points. Their vision remains grounded in open-source commitment, balancing sustainability with impactful contributions, all while fostering a people-first work environment. ## 📖 Main Content: Human Made began modestly with freelance projects and grew through consistent client work and strategic hires. The founders share personal insights about moments when they realized the company was "really doing this," highlighting the significance of early collaborations, client relationships, and redesigning their website. Growth was steady but required navigating cultural shifts and introducing structure without losing the original spirit. Their contributions to WordPress extend beyond code—they co-founded WordCamp Europe, contributed to the REST API, and fostered open-source culture globally. Human Made’s embrace of remote work and investment in employee well-being have set it apart in attracting top talent. The founders openly discuss challenges: managing growth pains, the struggle of transitioning from hands-on work to leadership, and learning to delegate. They also candidly reflect on imposter syndrome and adapting leadership styles over time. Looking ahead, they see Human Made continuing its open-source mission, balancing financial sustainability with meaningful impact. The company’s enduring success stems from strong values, collaborative culture, and the deep bonds between current and former employees, evidenced by a thriving alumni network. ## 🗒️ Notes - **Early Days and Formation** - Started with freelance work by Joe and Nol, with early challenging projects. - Important early client relationships have lasted 15 years. - The "Edge Designs" name had to be dropped due to trademark issues, leading to Human Made. - **Growth and Team Expansion** - Growth was linear, ~40% per year in early years. - Hiring key people like Daniel Vak Huber marked professional maturation. - Transitioned from small office in Matlock to fully remote teams globally. - **Contribution to WordPress and Community** - Helped create WordCamp Europe and contributed to core, notably the REST API. - Developed products like Happy Tables that pushed WordPress into new verticals. - Known for strong community engagement and fostering open-source "good vibes." - **Challenges and Cultural Evolution** - Scaling the company required introducing structure without losing culture. - Founders struggled with letting go of control and delegation. - Product pivots highlighted challenges of operating outside core expertise (e.g., hospitality sector). - **Leadership and Personal Growth** - Leadership evolved from doing technical work to empowering others. - Imposter syndrome was present but manageable. - Learning was iterative, grounded in practical experience, not formal business education. - **Company Values and Culture** - Focus on open source, investing in employees, and fostering a positive workplace. - Early adoption of remote work and open source contributions as part of company DNA. - Strong alumni network reflects lasting cultural impact. - **Looking Forward** - Desire to maintain core values alongside sustainable growth. - Emphasis on balancing profitability with "doing good" through open source. - Speculation about future tech (AI CEO!) but consistent human-centric values. ## 📖 References: - [Being Human - 15 Years of Human Made](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNFXmKe0M98) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase:  1. Original: *"I think from a position of humility really but then probably 5 years later realized to some degree okay that is actually we're yeah quite impactful I think than more than we probably realized at the time just because I don't know I think I felt the bar was pretty high really."* Paraphrased: Initially, we approached our contributions with humility, not fully recognizing our impact. It took about five years before we understood that our efforts were more significant than we had assumed, partly because we held ourselves to a very high standard. 2. Original: *"There's a lot of stuff that you have to learn half of which is not going to be stuff you want to do nor enjoy nor are good at. Um, and you're going to make loads of mistakes and it's going to be painful."* Paraphrased: Growing a company means learning many new skills, many of which you neither enjoy nor excel at. You'll make numerous mistakes along the way, and that process can be tough and uncomfortable. ## 📰 Newsletter: 🎉 Celebrating 15 Years of Human Made! 🚀 This episode of *Being Human* features founders Joe, Nol, and Tom reflecting on their journey from a humble freelance start to becoming a leading WordPress agency. Learn how steady growth, embracing remote work, and deep community involvement fueled their success. Discover the challenges they overcame—like scaling culture and transitioning leadership—and their commitment to open source that still drives them today. Whether you’re a developer, contributor, or WordPress enthusiast, this story offers inspiring lessons on sustainable growth, community values, and embracing change. Tune in and celebrate with us! 🎧 [Listen here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNFXmKe0M98) ## ✅ Action Items: - Highlight Human Made’s model of combining open-source contributions with sustainable business growth in talks and workshops. - Emphasize the importance of culture and values in open-source project leadership, aligning with my OSPO aspirations. - Use Human Made’s remote-first approach as a case study in fostering inclusive contributor communities. - Encourage education on leadership transitions from technical to managerial roles within open source teams. - Advocate for strong alumni networks to maintain contributor engagement over time. - Share insights on balancing personal passion with professional responsibilities to new contributors. ## 🧪 Hypotheses: - Companies that invest early in open-source community building have higher long-term sustainability. - Strong alignment of company values with contributor values leads to higher retention and engagement. - Remote-first cultures in open-source agencies improve talent attraction globally. - Leadership transitions focusing on delegation and empowerment positively impact organizatio - Summary: In this episode of Being Human, we catch up with Human Made founders, Tom , Joe and Noel to celebrate 15th anniversary of Human Made and reflect back on the last 15 years. We discuss the highs, lows and explore some of their favourite moments over the years! - URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNFXmKe0M98 Welcome back to being human. This year's episode three I believe of our revived podcast and it felt right to celebrate that this month was 15 anniversary of humanade. It seemed right to have a look back look forward and also celebrate some of the achievements some of the challenges we've overcome. And to do that, we have Joe, Nol, and Tom here, who are the partners of Human Made to talk about all things that have happened over the last 15 years. I don't have any words to add to that before we kick off. Oh, Tom's muted. Starting strong. What's happen? I didn't think I was. I didn't think I was, but maybe I was. I started crying cuz 15 years. There's a lot. There's a lot that to, you know, lot to pour out. Difficult to summarize. I know I Let's see how well we can cover that in the space of 30 minutes. All we've got, there's a lot to a lot. We could maybe push it to 40, but we don't want to bore everyone. By by 40 minutes, everyone will be bit to get too intuitous. Yeah. Yeah. We don't want don't want it to get too emotional either, do we? After 40 minutes of reflecting back. But I suppose it's a good place to start thinking about the early days of Human Maid and some of those defining moments that really shaped where we are now. Was there ever a point where you started Human Maid and then it started to grow more than you expected or defining moments where you were like, "Oh, we're really doing this." Talk me through that. Um, so long ago. It's so long ago. for the first I guess the first year it was about a year of human made before we met null for the first time right there was like this little tiny pre-nol period which I can't even really remember anymore I think that was mostly just me and Joe freelancing to Slack is actually Null's 12th anniversary today but three years it didn't feel as long No it's cuz I it's cuz I only because we only did the actual And that's why paperwork like the actual system paperwork then but like it was way earlier that we got we were working together for a lot longer before that. Yeah. Yeah. That's that explains that cuz it definitely didn't feel like 3 years. Yeah. No, you guys were working you guys were freelancing like one or two projects like you were doing that one buddy press one from the guy in Switzerland and that's where we met. Some of the clients we still we still even talk to digital trends maybe Y. Yeah. That's quite wild that all the way back 15 years. I definitely wouldn't have thought back then that we would have had clients that long term for sure. I also didn't think that we would grow to the size that we did. I think for the first 5 years I was mostly in the denial of any kind of growth phase probably. But I guess that changed that changed. Me and Joe were working with a guy in Switzerland who was trying to create a social network gamified thing and found null as a consultant to work on that project. He turned it down cuz the the project was crazy. So null had a much smarter sensei on that one. We got roped in for must have been a couple of years. Yeah, that was painful. I I guess yeah, we actually we met each other and kept in touch. So he turned the client down but not us. So then we started working together. It took I think two two weeks two and a half weeks or something like that or it wasn't a very long period before I came up to Manchester on a 29B easy jet ticket and met you guys there. Me and Joe drove into the big city. Yeah, this guy just flown in to meet us. This is crazy. I seem to remember you redesigned the human I think we like hired you to redesign the humanade website. Maybe like the first redesign that we did. Yeah. Yes. Remember that early on. That was pretty seminal moment. So were you already humanade at this point? The name already had a great prior to that I'd been but no project that came quite a few years later. Yeah. Prior to that, Joe was on Oh, that's why it was a great logo. Prior to that, we were prior to Human Made, I had a little one man agency called Edge Designs, and Joe was also freelancing, I think, as Joe Hoy. And then we started working together on some of the same projects, I guess, under Edge Designs. And then I got a like letter from a lawyer at a a real company called Edge Designs saying, "Can you stop?" Which was fair enough cuz it was a real company and we weren't I had just made that up. So I took our I had to take the website down. Um how many companies? So then we kind of had to think of a new few. There you go. See, it can be this moment of great look at what a good fortune that was. We could still be called Edge Designs. So at what point did you like the defining moment of being like oh okay we're growing we're a bigger agency or company was there like a particular moment at the very latest joining VIP I feel like it was before that to a certain extent just because the clients were rolling in and it was just where one project would be done and there was already another project lined up and I I feel like that just meant the train left the station and things were just rolling. I I don't know if there's a defining point, but just that momentum alone felt like that change. I mean, I think around the point that we cuz yeah, I guess we met you and yeah, I guess we were probably five or six people at you were made at that point and this was before VIP existed. We were mostly coasting off of the clients that Joe and I had been working with freelance, plus obviously we'd then won some more off the back of that. But then we started working with null and null was doing restaurant a restaurant website sorry pub themes for pubs like WordPress themes for pubs and for restaurants and out of us starting to work together on that came happy tables which was this real product and then that's when Joel that's when joined humanade and happy tables became a humanmade product we also hired we switched to remote around the f around the similar time like before that actually we We were all in an office in Matlock. Yeah. And then so yeah, we hired Daniel Vak Huber who joined us from Automatic and was quite like in I guess an important early hire and also Paul Dudas in South America. And so I guess just yeah in that period we went from I guess we yeah we were international. We had some like pretty big hitters like null was pretty well known by this point. Daniel was pretty well known. We were starting to create get a bit of a reputation ourselves. And so I think that was quite a Yeah, I think that's around level up pretty seriously. We decided to hire Daniel. That was Yeah, we we had to I feel like we had to earn money from that point on. We were no longer a group of cheapo young developers sat in Matlog. We were still paying ourselves that, but I guess it was the first time we got someone that was likeens our own salary or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. But that's the risk that comes with the game, right? That's why we're here now. Yeah. And from that, did you ever imagine humor made evolving into to what it is now? What it and what it has been over the last 15 years? Was was that sort of it would be a nice if we get bigger or was that always the plan? Yeah. Like what was our plan back then? Can you remember? What did we think we were going to become? Nothing super long term like that. I But I did think that we would be a small boutique kind of agency. We're not like massively far off that with our numbers now, but in many ways we are a much larger company than that. I do remember specifically having a goal of a lifetime build revenue of a million pounds in my younger that was like obviously now we have maybe 6 million a year or something. So there's obviously been some major change from what I was looking at. That would have been back in the day when like I'm the one that did the books and everything. That was like yeah Joe was responsible for design and finance. There was many hats but back in those days it very slowly grew really. I think if you plot out our growth it is quite linear. So there wasn't really like major inflection points of major step change for me. Yeah. Although we grew like 40 40% a year or something on average I think for the first eight years. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's just just it's just one person at a time though. So I don't know. It's like growing. You don't really notice it. No. Yeah. I guess back then we were I guess also like the I guess the American agencies were bigger. WordPress was more American centric probably. So then that probably contributed to this sense that we were like doing well and had a cool reputation but but we were but like still somehow in a like underdog way or something a bit more to now where it's that's less true. I think we are just one of the three main ones or something. But there wasn't really that sense back then. There was more of an underdogy sense I think. And I think we would have been like super happy with where we've where we are now. Like that that probably if you'd have sat us down that probably would have been the pinnacle that we were like aiming for. Yeah, don't go home. Yeah, you've done your bit now. The opposite effect. Now you've reflected a minute. Yeah. Yeah. I suppose we've spoken about how the the evolution of humanade. How do you think humanade has contributed to WordPress as a whole then over that 15 years? in almost every way. That's the thing I think from uh to some shops, some places might focus on development or whatever. But I feel like we've taken a sense of ownership for the project in terms of contributing across code, community, good vibes, whatever it may be. Just trying to move the entire thing forward in such a way that it's a net positive for society. Yeah. I think we probably again in the early days we were not really contributing to WordPress or even participating in the WordPress community at the beginning of Human Mates Life. We actually I think attended our first word camp course over a year after founding the company. Yeah. But yeah then the I guess what with null once null joined and then we started Yeah. Then we hired Daniel and then that kind of led us into hiring people from the community like influential people from the community. And so then I think then over the next several years I think we had the like highest density of just like highly engaged in WordPress as a product and a community and ecosystem certainly probably outside of automatic in those early days. Uh and so for sure we contribute a lot to core like the rest API is a good example of that and more broadly than that. It was like humanmade people that were in the founding team for word camp Europe and humanmade people who led the first three word camp Europe or something more that was true for a lot of the events that were happening across Europe and then in Asia. Um and even things like happy tables that was like leading the charge in terms of like the productization of WordPress for verticals and it was very influential I think in the ecosystem in terms of like a lot of people would talk about that as being like okay the the future of WordPress is being I think I think they were but I think that's more in retrospect thing. I think at the time when we even got involved in the community the beginning or just the larger awareness of WordPress, it obviously feels very big and there's so many people doing so many things. So I feel like we were always just we just tried to do the best that we could on sharing what we're doing and whatever like with the projects or the direction mostly I think from a position of humility really but then probably 5 years later realized to some degree okay that is actually we're yeah quite impactful I think than more than we probably realized at the time just because I don't know I think I felt the the bar was pretty high really. So like we would just try our best on everything basically consistently doing that for a long time. Say hiring the people that we did, putting the open stuff, saw stuff out, supporting the projects that we did, that kind of thing. Um we actually just Yeah. I think outgrew a bunch of the competition in the space that we wanted to be. Yeah. And along I suppose alongside like all of the the positives and the successes, there's always tough times and and challenges. So I guess what over the last 15 years has been the toughest time or the biggest challenges that you think your mate has overcome? I'm trying to remember some early ones. It's it's funny obviously that when you're smaller they it feels really hard and then when you get big you look back and think oh remember the problems we used to think we had when we were 10 people or whatever. For me, um, definitely growing the company was just generally difficult because you're having to work out a lot of kind of cultural things and you're introducing structure and you're worried about the impact that is going to have. So I think when we grew from end to maybe 40 or something, I remember that just being quite an arduous process because like you're you're just like worried about making the wrong decision all the time basically as you grow the company but don't want to lose the reason why you started the company. I mean even with all the things that I used to do around like if it was design or accounting or we would make people decisions but then Siobhan came on as head of people. So then you're having, you know, I it's really easy to do now to just like delegate and not worry about what another leader is going to do. But that was actually a major thing is how do you actually stop trying to have your input into everything and control everything that I'm more than happy to do that now, but back then I remember that being a major kind of difficulty. Yeah. Yeah, and I suppose on the flip side as well, you've got trying to learn everything about running a business as it's growing and figuring things out on the way as well, which is always tough. Happy Tables was one in terms of we weren't part of the restaurant industry and we built good product but like didn't weren't able to I don't know just really find our sales way and that just yeah like the struggle feel like we learned a lot then in terms of talking to users and figuring all that out but yeah we had a couple different pivots iterations but ultimately it's just none of us came from hospitality and that's a tough one when it's like just that one step remote. Um, so if if we came from that space or lived in that space or had other like stuff going on in that space, it could have worked out quite well. Um, but you know, we did well on the plug-in side of things like WP remote because that's something that's very close to us, right? That was something that we built for ourselves or backup WordPress. So whenever we stayed true to ourselves and built things for ourselves, we generally did quite well, especially in the WordPress space. And I think that's all obviously going to be quite interesting with all the new technology coming out now. How do we stay close to ourselves and at the same time leverage the new and exciting shiny things? So hopefully the learnings from then will apply now. Got loads I could pick on. Yeah, one I would definitely pick up on is the beginning. You really just start a company that is doing the things that you like to do, right? We like to build WordPress stuff. So that's what so we like started a company to do that. Um, and that's really great and that is really motivating and fun and you enjoy doing that work and there's like always a more interesting WordPress project next and that drives the growth. But then as the company grows, it starts to you start to need to transition away from doing those things and now yeah there's all sorts of expectations and that the company has or there's things that the company needs or that that are not those things and so that's I think that period from 10 people to 50 people can be pretty difficult as a founder cuz there's a lot of stuff that you have to learn half of which is not going to be stuff you want to do nor enjoy nor are good at. Um, and it's you're going to make loads of mistakes and it's going to be painful. And I think you see a lot of companies like don't make it through that period basically. And then yeah, once you make it through that and you're like, "Oh, okay. I've got all the scars now and we've got the system set up and we've managed to hire good people and we've got a leadership team, all of that stuff, then I think then things change again and it's okay, now I can focus back on the bits I'm good at." And but yeah, I remember that transition's diff was difficult. Um, and especially that you start to think, wait a minute, I'm spending all day every day doing stuff I don't like by definition. How do you That's quite an interesting point. And so, how do you think that you've developed and grown then as a leader to deal with those things over the past 15 years? And how did you do that? Was it just a case of adapting to the changes? Yeah. Yeah. you have to refind what it is that you know I really liked building things and so to be and so I really like programming and building websites and so then the that started to shift over time to be like okay I actually enjoy you can find some of that engineering reward in and work in okay the company's a product and building the company and then I think I also discovered that actually I also really yeah quite liked the process of working with people and the like hiring great people and then seeing them do well. So I think you've got to you have to just refind the things that you're going to enjoy in the new work rather than probably rather than trying to hold on forever to the things. I think that you have to like move with the times in some way. I feel like though it's almost when you're going through that you think that it all needs to change and like you don't know anything about the new roles that you need to have and the things you need to do and then to some degree is the learning process of the following 5 to 10 years but I feel like the place that I'm at now is a lot more like there actually wasn't a lot of new things to learn in some ways you may think that there there's a whole other world to learn which I mean to to some degree It's true, but also it al just does I think come back to what makes kind of sense to you of how you would do things and that's how you do them. I don't there's no kind of like hidden knowledge that you don't have you or I definitely had this feeling of oh to grow a company there's some kind of like professionalism and business approach that I don't know because I don't have an MBA and I didn't learn X Y or Z or what have you. It's actually not rocket science. And the more that you do stick to make sure you continue to do things that make sense to yourself, then I think that's actually the better way to go anyway. Not that we're here to leave out advice for companies, but that was a master a masterass. Do you think there was definitely some imposter syndrome along the way where you're like, how are we going to do this or you think it was actually like just it can help? I don't know. For me, it depends what like your bar is for considering would it be considered imposter syndrome. I definitely like I said felt didn't know what I needed to know or might not have been capable of doing that but you know that that was true to some degree. Um I but I would say it certainly wasn't a crippling thing for me. I was definitely happy to like get stuck in and do it. So it's not like I didn't feel it sounds like it with all the roles you're doing. So, I guess thinking about the future then and where like what if we were doing this conversation in 15 years, what would you like us to be talking about? Where would you like to see us in 15 years? Got any ideas? No. Yeah, I still see the Northstar being open source and striking that balance between, I don't know, being able to make a living and then also at the same time doing good overall. Like I feel like that's always been our kind of balance. Like we like when we shipped the rest API or co-ounded work camp Europe or whatever, these are things that bring us joy. They're it's great that we're able to mix these two things. And I think if we're able to still do that down the line and create open source technology that the open web benefits from and it helps safeguard the open web, then I think that's a wonderful thing. Yeah. It almost probably ties in a little bit with the kind of imposter syndrome in question. And there was a period there was a period early on, right, where we were just like purely living our own motivations and interests and the company was just a reflection of that or whatever. And then you like go through this period of needing to professionalize and there's a little bit of I think we went through a period of oh we need to hire these people and they're going to tell us that all the things that we've been doing are not unrealistic as a big company and then you like oh maybe they're right and you do a whole bunch of stuff or you allow yourself to be like I like that we do it like that but maybe that's just cuz I don't know I'm not a real businessman or something. um uh and other companies and you assume they were they're way more professional and stuff and so I think there was a period where we went through that. Yeah. But I think you come full circle on this once you've been doing this for 15 years. Yeah. feel like actually the things that are important to us uh are some of the things Null's talking about like doing good work with good people and open source and the kind of you go back to those initial values really and you start to realize oh no those are what matter and yeah the we can hold on to those a little bit more strongly and I think probably who knows what obviously what we'll look like in 15 years but I would uh think that those are still the things that those are the things that are motivating us Yeah, it seems that the values have been something that have carried through throughout whether that's values in the work you produce or the way in which like the work environment that's created for people as well here and I think that's such an important element to humorade success is the culture and the way in which people are allowed to exist in this work space that also allows such a balance for real life as well. I think that's been such a big factor to humanade. Yeah. But in some way this okay again at the beginning you don't it's it's some to some degree quite easy to live those values right because it's just a small group of you and you're all just doing whatever and you don't really need any structure or anything and then yeah this period where it's like it's a rough rough kind of grow growth per growth spurt or whatever and you like you don't really know how to scale what was good about the company and and I feel like we have shifted over at some point in the last couple of years into it's like it's humanade but We know how to do it now. We know what we're doing now. I like in 15 years if we still have the same values and approach. I think that's the that's the important thing to me. I don't know exactly how large we're going to be or what our revenue is going to be or how the technology evolves through that. But if I I guess if maybe we'll have an AI CEO. Maybe. Yeah. I think if the DNA of the company stays the same too that I want human mate to continue to be the human mate that we started and I feel like that's definitely where we are now and yeah I think that's that is what the company is right that's why I think people come to work here is to share those values and I think ultimately we want to find the best way forward for the company to continue to be like successful sustain sustainable profitable etc but That's obviously within the the the scope of staying the same kind of company with the values that we have. There was a couple things at the beginning too that they they may feel implicit now, but they weren't really at the time. Like we were um we guess we were working in open source, but we were giving time back. We were not looking at the expenses in the sense of like we weren't funded like automatic was or any anything, but we were saying our employees, yeah, go to work camps, do this, do that. Obviously that becomes harder when you have size, but we never look at those things from a like a costbenefit analysis early on. It was just like this all feels right. Like investing in open source, investing in our people and all these things were not actually a given at the time. Even remote work like was not a given. So, I feel like we we went against the current on a couple of these things very early on when they weren't necessarily like best practice or whatever. But those first couple years where we where we did those things gave us an edge in terms of reputation and attracting great talent uh and being able to be surrounded by really good people that improved our thoughts. I think if there's some if there's anything we managed to do and have managed to do over that that has contributed or set us apart, I think it is that we like we managed to we've managed to build a place at times where like the best people in the industry want to come and work and that's actually uh it really hard to do unlikely and I think is something that we have genuinely done at least at times as yeah that I think that is largely then what propels propels the company forward in one way or another. Yeah, I think we speak a lot about the people that have worked here and the culture that we have and that makes a good place to lead onto some of the positive notes I wanted to end this podcast on in terms of your proudest moments at Human Made, but also I'd love to hear your favorite memories as well. Is there something that stands out that's just like a core memory? I'm sure there's I'm sure there's loads of them. It's it's 15 years. It's a long time. But yeah, between the three of you it' be great to hear some moments you're really proud of and some just really great memories that you have that human made. I think proudest for me would be the retreats. I think in many ways when people come together and we just see them jelling and ultimately the human experience is a social one like we can make money we can lose money but as a group you can really see how we come together and want to come together because when we work remotely be it in Slovakia Sri Lanka Italy wherever we've had these just amazing times of coming together and I'm proud that we were able to bring together a group of people that want to be together and and spend time together and build things together and it's very humbling to experience that. Yeah. My mind goes a better one than that. I think that's it's like accepted like when whenever I think we've had them and you get everybody together in the same room whether it's like whether we're doing like state of the humans or flash talks is another big one. Then you get some time to let it soak in a little bit and appreciate all of the I guess the dayto-day that we do is feels like it has payoff for doing that. So definitely there's just like appreciating I think what we and everybody have built for the company. But I'm also pulled towards every time we launch a project that's like a big moment for me I think just to be able to appreciate all of the work that everybody has done across the company that allows us to produce things like that. Techrunch was definitely one of the early ones of those I think for me where that was a very challenging long project a lot of people to come together but that's the same for so many of our projects now when when we launch a project that that is I don't know it's still a pretty big moment for me of just yeah taking some time to recognize what it's taken to get it to that point and do that I think I feel at my most my my moments of feeling pride or feeling really proud or are generally sat at the retreat watching flash talks watching those are like the things my mind goes to. Watching when I sitting in the audience and watching people from Hume speak on stage at the major word camps. That's another one. I think that's yeah those are the moments I think I feel most like proud and and mushy. Um it's hard to sum up a best memory though. One because my memory's bad and two cuz it's there's a lot. It's been a long time. Yeah. That's a tough question. That's a mean question really to try and make you pick pick one singular moment. Uh yeah, I don't I don't know whether I I don't think I could to be honest. I don't think I could take How nice is that though? That's a really nice place to be in. And I think that's like the beauty of you made as well is that it's you know it's work but in so many ways there's parts of it that don't feel like work as well cuz it's so fun. And that thing that's the ability to travel and go to these events and meet people that you talk to every day online in Plan Syndrome and also have that human connection and then you realize that it's work at the same time and it just feels you feel grateful to be in that position where you can call that your job probably I guess probably true for Joe and Nol as well like we've it's not just work right like poured poured a lot of ourselves into it and so it's in I'm sure plenty of ways that like my friend would tell who was unhealthy is like my ego and personality and sense of selfworth and everything is like pretty deeply intertwined with how the company's doing and stuff and that I guess means that you have a ups are high are even higher and the lows are even lower to some degree I suppose as we come to the end is there anything else you wanted to add on from the last 15 years this success has not been just down to your leadership but also every everyone that's contributed and worked for human made over that time So I think a good shout out to all our humans is always warranted because they do such a good job past and current and future as well cuz we're always looking for great people as well. It's pretty I feel like one milestone is the day that the humanade alumni Slack has more had more people in it than work at the company. that feels like some kind of master and I I think speaks to the also the culture and the degree to which so many of the people who've worked here have had such a meaningful impact and been such a meaningful part of it that has kept them together actually long after they've left the company like I we've got a engaged alumni which um again is I think is one of those that's an indicator of of the strength of that connection I don't know how much it does go without saying but yes human made has not been like just obviously built by the three of us. If we've done anything then we choose the people in the early days that came in and tried to keep the values in in the company but I am struck by how much it often feels I guess taken everybody in humanade represent human maid's values like just as much as I guess the three of us do and I think people believe in that as well like that is what they want to do there has been plenty of periods in the company's life where the I trust in leadership is lower than like trust in the humanmade name and the humanade values and brand and that I think the three of us get some credit for starting the thing but in terms of like how it actually continues and we continue to do great work and everything that's obviously not the three of us that are like doing that anymore for we just do a very small part of that it's really everybody that that contributes to that and it's just like our job to try and steward that to some degree. I think that's a really nice way of putting it. It definitely this the success definitely speaks to every human and all of the people that have worked here, which is nice. It goes back to the three of us. and something it's always reinforced when I'm talking to other founders is how unusual it is actually to have three co-founders who have been able to work together as like positively and deeply as the three of us have over such a long period and that like founders not getting on and falling out is like the number one way that the small companies die and I think that's something that's just really easy for the three of us to take for granted actually and or forget that I think that's that's been quite a big part of it. I think that obviously losing a co-founder is you can see why that would be such a huge mess and the fact that yeah the three of us I think have had this really good balance over the years between the three of us. We've really found our uh places and our strengths and our weaknesses and figured out a way to work together and what motivates us and what keeps us coming back in every day and all of that. And we've supported each other at when one of us has gone through periods of like stepping back more or going through something which we've all done. um which I think is yeah has actually created quite a like stability at that level over what is actually 15 years and yeah it seems just like natural to me so we don't really think about it but actually yeah I'm often reminded of that when I'm talking to others and that they're telling me about the crazy falling out they've had or how disruptive it's been that tears can tear companies apart it's like your parents splitting up or something it's a massively disruptive situation yeah to do. I was going to ask if that if you think some of that might be because we're Yes, we created a business, but we're not like we didn't come out of working for Mckenzie or whatever and hey, we need to do this VC back startup, but rather we do have quite a lot of values driving us and goals and be it that northstar on the open web or just or just creating somewhere where we actually enjoy working. I think that was something that we've um we didn't it wasn't discussed today yet, but it was something you had discussed in the past where you just want to you want to create some something where you enjoy working years from now, too. Yeah. Uh so I think that's also like part of your 15- year goal, but it's that's because we're not I I I I think ultimately like the financial side is not the ultimate make or break. will try to figure it out like rough periods or whatever. But because that's not such a hard line, it means that when that chasm is reached, it doesn't mean like it's the end of the journey for one of us or whatever. There's no ultimatums being thrown around. I think we all like enjoy being here and realize the grass is not greener on the other side and that like we actually build cool stuff, so why not just try to figure this out? Yeah, I think so. I think so. I think it's we get we genuinely get on which I think is like get like being in a relationship 15 years is a long time and I think we have over time I think we've I like another thing I see often is people start the company but then like over time actually they both want the same role or something whereas I think we've found our we fit together. It that's worked pretty well. Yeah, I agree. Tom, was that your really nice way of saying thank you to no one for being me? A See, I told you after 40 minutes start getting start getting emotional and emotional. Yeah. No, definitely. Gosh, I'm reminded of it most when I talk to solo founders. That that just seems Yeah. Imagine have to do it on Yeah. Yeah. Being able to give Joe null a call and moan about something or or strategize on something or whatever is I can't imagine doing that. I think that's a really nice place to end. Thank you for joining me. It's really nice to reflect back. Thank you all of you. Yeah, see you in five minutes time for the next one. Sounds good. Thank you so much. Thank you everybody listening today. Byebye. Thanks so much., Being Human -15 Years of Human Made, Human Made, 01jwbf8x8e728pxzat68gf2jg6.