Bethel Just Responded to Mike Winger...  All right, guys. Today's video is going to be a little bit different. Uh, I'm not going to be hitting a bunch of different topics. I'm going to be strictly engaging with the Bethl church service Chris Valatin response to Mike Winger's investigation. Uh, I'll be honest, this was a hard sermon to get through. Um, it was very very uh, yeah, it was tough. And so, I am just going to be listening to this. I am going to be looking directly at what scripture says uh and engaging with what he's saying, some of the claims he has made uh that that that aren't true and what the issues that people actually have are. Uh why why do I care so much? One, I care because I'm I'm friends with Mike Winger and I think he does good work. Two, I care because I've seen the culture exported from Bethl and the harm that it brings. three because uh I am connected to someone that used to work for Shawn BS uh and that was directly impacted by this. So, I'm personally connected to the folks on the other end of this. And four, because I have friends at Bethl that I deeply care about. And uh my my hope is that as this is brought more to the forefront and Bethl slowly starts acknowledging that there would be uh systemic change put in place like hopefully an investigation launched and and pathways towards restoration and wholeness to protect uh people in the future from this ever happening and to hopefully bring some sort of closure to the victims involved. And so uh this video is going to be raw. Uh I I react to about 90% of the sermon. There's one story I fast forward. The rest of it I I I react to. We might condense some of it where he's just kind of going on and on and I don't have anything to chime into. But um yeah, hope hopefully you enjoy this. Now uh I've reached out to Chris Valatin. I've let Mike know I was going to do this as well. I let Chris Valatin know that I was going to react to this. I offered to speak to him privately. I encouraged him to speak to Mike Winger privately. I can verify that someone over there that runs his Instagram read the message. Um, and so for the sake of brevity, I'm just going to be reacting to the sermon today, uh, and trying to line it up with scripture and reason. It would bring me a ton of joy if I can take this video down if Bethl could bring it to themselves to course correct some of the things that have recently came out regarding their relationship with Shawn BS. And so, as Chris Valson makes specific statements, I will interject and offer either what scripture has to say or what's actually being disputed here. I would do my very best to be charitable. And again, I really would love for Bethl to take ownership, take accountability, uh, own the way that they got some of this wrong. And, uh, I'm doing this as a as a as a as a as a way to document the public record in this response and what we're experiencing within online evangelical uh, charismatic Christianity. Okay. So, if you guys aren't familiar about the massive, massive, massive uh online ministry, massive music, and they are huge. So, I'm going to try to get through as much of this sermon as I can. I've listened to it once. It was really hard to listen through it uh because it's very frustrating. And uh I'm uh we might clip some of it out if it's if I don't have nothing, you know, uh to add or say. And uh we'll we'll do our best to condense it, but still up. You guys could go watch the full thing for yourself. And these are just my thoughts engaging with what is I think a pretty clear response to Mike Winger and what he uncovered in his Bethl video. All right, let's jump in. So, this is from a I believe a Sunday night stream that Chris decided to preach at. I don't know if this was their Sunday morning message, but uh this is the Sunday night one. And this picks at about the hour and 42 mark. I'm playing it at 1.25 speed to try to get through more of it than possible. And again, I'm just going to chime in with scripture and whatever the details are of what's being discussed. >> But I I've been thinking about the complexities of shephering people in the 21st century and the different dynamics. And you see, you know, people all over the internet and social media. There's, you know, lots of people positive, negative, and talking about, you know, their experiences with the body of Christ or with leaders or obviously in the world. There's so much fake news, right? It's all mixed in there and it's really hard to even trust the story. you see a person that you know and uh and they're saying crazy stuff and you realize it's AI and that's nothing to do with what they said and stories that people write are just sometimes crazy. But I I want to talk a little bit about the complexities that I see that we face every day. And uh I'd agree and acknowledge that there is more complexities pastoring today and being a leader today than there ever uh were before. So yes, I we we grant you that, Chris. Absolutely. Absolutely. We're with you. and talk through like what is it like shephering people in the 21st century with we're the first generation of fathers and mothers and brothers and sisters who live with the internet and social media and we live with you know I mean 20 maybe what 25 years ago if you had a complaint if you felt that you were abused or you had a story you pretty much had to go find someone that had a media outlet you know a Fox News or something to try to tell your story and and there was maybe a little bit of vetting like is this a credible story maybe there's some background somebody does a background to see if your story is actually credible. But >> so I think if there's a credible threat in the church 20 or 30 years ago, hopefully people went to the church. I'm not sure if this is what he's talking about, if he's talking about abuse in general. Um, and this, in my opinion, kind of underhands the fact that Mike Winger did vet many of the people who he interviewed. Witnesses came forward allegedly 12 victims. He did according to scripture. So, I'm not sure it like he's like, "Oh, yeah. You know, but these YouTube guys, they don't really vet." And it's like, "Man, he spent months and months." I know Mike has been working on this for at least 6 months. Uh, how do I know? Because I know someone that used to work for Shawn Bolts that I did my very best to connect Mike with. So, I don't know um how he's coming to this conclusion or making this claim or if it's directly about Mike or if he's just speaking in generalities. If he's speaking in generalities, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. But what happened with the internet and then social media especially what in the last 12 15 years is everybody has really the same reach and you can tell your story is it could be credible it could not be credible and uh and you could tell your side of the story without another side of the story and and then you know we as uh shepherds one of the tasks of shepherds is to shepherd the flock and protect the flock and protecting the flock 30 years ago when your flock was in your building is quite different than ood. How do you protect your flock when it's in, you know, 72 countries and it includes hundreds of thousands or maybe millions of people who are influenced by you and and and that so many of people I don't know sometimes maybe loosely, you know, call us father and mother and this is my family and I I can't even I mean there's not a week that goes by I I would probably be exaggerating to say not a day goes by but not a week goes by when two or three people don't email me, text me, call me, come to a conference and say you don't know me but you're my spiritual ual father or Bill's my spiritual father. This is my family. And I'm like and I'm like wow, you know, the responsibility. Hebrews chapter 13 talks about leaders um and it it says it it it says uh it talks about the fact that leaders actually give an account for your soul. And then it says as a as a follower, as a as a as a sheep. It says that you should actually you should actually honor your leaders in a way that that it's uh that it's that it's easy for them to shepherd you and to give an account for your soul. And I'm like, I don't know how this is going to work when we get to heaven. You know, is the Lord going to say, "Hey, those people in, you know, Pakistan who you were shephering and giving oversight for their souls, you didn't do a good job." I don't know. Like >> I I think the hard part here is he's talking about Pakistan and there were people in his building that went to church there that were impacted by what was uncovered regarding the Shamb situation. This is an online ministry that's being sent over to Pakistan. And again, maybe he's just speaking in generalities and the challenges facing shephering in general. What was being explained in the 5-hour Mike Winger video, which you guys should all go watch, is that you guys brought in people into the church, at least two people into the church that you put up on a platform that you said were prophets, that you said were dear friends, that um Bill Johnson, the co-pastor, the lead pastor of Bethl, did press with afterwards that had what seems to be a credible amount of allegations. So much so that you privately distanced yourself but uh publicly didn't warn people and specifically the people in your building. I don't think anyone was expecting Bethl to put out a statement to the nations. I think people were expecting you to warn people at least in your building and then by proxy folks who are connected to people by your building. This is the idea of at the very least falling short a sin of omission at the very most an intentional way of covering stuff up because it may hurt the brand or the movement or the prophetic move of God. So that that I just want to just reorient us. That is what is being uh alleged. >> Lord I didn't even know who those people are. And so, you know, and then the Bible, of course, is written in the agricultural age and and it it talks about shephering people and how do you deal with people who fail and how do you deal with wolves who come in and actually try to try to intentionally hurt the flock? And there's a big difference between broken people who are un kind of unsafe and somebody who's intentionally trying to lead people away. And and sometimes it's hard to know the difference between a broken person, and how many you know we want our churches to be full of broken people. Yes, it could be hard to know between a broken person who's sinning and someone that's a wolf and intentionally leading people away. However, you as a shepherd are called to protect your sheep. You as a shepherd are called to protect your sheep even against broken people. When you do not do that, it brings harm to people when they don't know that it is an an unsafe person. My question to Chris with all respect is would you have been comfortable with your kids or your grandkids sharing hotel rooms with Shawn BS? Would you have been comfortable with people in your personal life who you de who you adore being interns for him and traveling with him? If you would if you would say no, I wouldn't be comfortable with my grandkids or my kids sharing rooms and hotels with Shan Boltz. Perhaps you should have taken better care of the spiritual kids that God has entrusted you with at your church. So whether someone is intending to be a wolf in sheep's clothing or not is irrelevant. If someone is broken and hurting other people, it is your job as a leader to sit that person down, draw a clear line in the sand, and warn other people to stay away from that person and perhaps re-evaluate some of the prophetic words they got after the fact that it's been consistently revealed to a reasonable conclusion that there was some data mining that was happening. Meaning Shawn Bolts initially, we thought it was just I thought it was just that bad. He was data mining. that's been fairly straightforward and laid out. Well, no, later stuff came out that there was essay. One person just on the data mining front spent his life savings pursuing a documentary project that um unfortunately, you know, they knew after the fact and they did not tell him about and he asked. And so, again, you guys could check this out. It's a conversation with this gentleman right here who talks about his entire background with a prophetic word he got while he was deep in the the Bethl culture and spends his entire life savings his retirement on the uh documentary project that Shawn BS told him about. So yes, you are as a prophet as a shepherd called to protect your sheep. I I I get the sense and I'm trying to be good faith to build that somehow this is unreasonable for me to conclude. >> We want the broken. >> We want the sinner. >> Amen. >> We want the sick. >> We want the people who need a miracle. >> People we heard about tonight. Like we want them to feel welcome in our church. >> Amen. >> Amen. I don't think you want them in positions of leadership and authority over other people. I would hope that's not what you want. >> Oh, people your your church is full of broken people. That is a beautiful compliment that broken people are looking for a place to find a family and get healed. And and you know, you choose your friends, but you don't choose your family. No, you guys aren't laughing. I I I don't I don't I'm not laughing because I feel like you're making light of something that's rather serious when you're involving potential victims of essay. I, as a victim that experienced essay in the church, didn't do anything about it. Maybe this is why this is so frustrating for me to hear this sort of stuff. I was in the Armenian Orthodox Church. I was uh essayed by other uh alter boys and the church did nothing about it. Didn't confront them and you know years later I walked into church with a earring and they were more concerned about my ear being pierced than what had happened to me by older teenagers when I was eight. Um, that's why this is frustrating to me is uh because we're conflating people who are in positions of leadership with versus broken people that are coming in the church and not doing anything about it. The church, I've heard this described this way. The church is a hospital. The church is a school. The church is uh a family. And the church is an army. And so, yes, the church is a hospital. There are sick, broken people. Yes, the church is a family. Yes, we don't always ch choose our family. Fair enough. The church is a school. The church is the army. When you start moving through being in the hospital if you're sick or being in the family or being in the school and getting equipped to then being in the army, um yeah, soldiers shouldn't be abusing people who are in the hospital. I know it's a metaphor, but that that that's what I'm getting at. And so it seems like there's no discernment or wisdom lines on around these things cuz you don't have my family. And you know, I don't know, everybody has a crazy uncle, right? Maybe you're like, "Yeah, you're my crazy uncle." Everybody has a crazy uncle. Everybody has a, you know, a, you know, kind of a lunatic aunt, you know, so like cousin who's like not totally, you know, and and when you invite your friends over for Christmas and your family's there, you're like, you're hoping that your crazy uncle doesn't show and they always do. And it's just part of it's part of being a family is that you belong somewhere. No matter your condition, you belong somewhere. and and and it's you know I I don't know if this has ever happened to you but sometime I get embarrassed of the way people behave in certain places and I'm like oh my gosh you know and then I think it's a blessing that people who are needing help can find a place a healthy place to get well >> and it's uh it's always a challenge you know to gosh as we've grown you know when we were in Weaverville everybody knew everybody like you knew the woof because everybody in town knew the woof again it didn't even take discernment like that person had a reputation for leading people astray and doing bad things to people and you were, you know, when that person would come in the room, you're praying that they get delivered and healed and cough up something, you know, but you're on high alert. Like all the elders are on high alert, you know who that person is. And and and once in a while a stranger comes in that nobody knows, but when you're in a town of 3,000, there's not a lot of strangers. And when you have nine businesses in a town of 3,000, you pretty much know everybody. And you know the broken people and you know their story. And so you're, you know, you're shephering people that you actually have a relationship with. And maybe they don't come to church, but they're in your business. They're they're you see them in the post office. You have to go to the post office, get your mail, and you there's just a lot of interaction with people. So the the challenge of, hey, how's that person really doing is not that big because you see them so often and you hear their stories. >> Yeah, I I I understand. I would say that's fair. You know, they're talking about Weverton and their background there and yes, smaller communities, more tight-knit communities. I think everything he says here I don't I don't have a ton of push back against. Uh I think this is all this is all fine. >> And then you come, you know, then we come here and at the time the church is a thousand people and there's no streaming. There's there's there's there's no internet. We're not on the internet. And basically the people we see they're they're in the room and and you're seeing the basic, you know, out of a 900 people or a thousand people that are in the room. You know, there may be 1,200 people in our church that you're rotating through. after, you know, when you're doing four or five services a week with the same people, you pretty much get to know them. You kind of get the idea of, you know, who's really broken, who's needing help, who was a former drug addict, who's still on drug that's trying to find their way, and you you kind of know their story. And so, like pastoring those people, it's it's, you know, it's not I don't mean it's an arrogant way, but it's it's not like it's not like rocket science. You are as as a as a as a leadership kind of conductor, you're like, "Hey, Barbara, can you connect with that person?" like your gift will work great with them. And then social media begins. And I'll never forget the first time that we streamed. For some reason, I got the pioneering first streaming. Now, the only reason I remember that is because my wife at 3:00 in the morning, I woke up for natural reasons. And my wife was already awake, which doesn't usually happen. And when I woke up to go to the bathroom, she goes, "Hey, you know, tomorrow they're streaming." I'm like, "Yeah." She hasn't been asleep yet. Yeah. And she goes, "You know, there's no delay. There's no delay in the streaming. Like, whenever you share, they cannot edit. Is this a true story?" Raise your hand. Tell them it's a true story. Yes. Yes. And I go, "Oh, no. There's a there's a 10-second delay." She goes, "No, I called them. There ain't no delay." And she's like, and she's concerned because we're about to stream to we don't even know how big the audience is, but obviously bigger than the room to a few thousand people the first day. And she's concerned that I'm too much. What' you say? Cuz I I'm like I externally process from the podium. And then I mean I I did have a message just as a >> so listen I I I understand the weight and the brevity of pastoring at scale on the internet like that that that does create unique challenges but I think this should be how we always feel when we're preaching. I don't I I feel more weight preaching sometimes in front of a group of 150 young adults than I do necessarily in a room by myself live streaming because I I can see those 150 young adults. And I I be honest, the more I do in-person events, the more weight I carry when I hop on a live stream or make a video like this to be very careful and know that I'm going to give an account for every single word that comes out of my mouth. So externally processing from again I'm not trying not to be nitpicky but externally processing from the pull pit is I mean is that how is that is that is that what the requirements of a pastor and an elder should be when it says they are to be able to teach. I I don't know. a while ago. This is a long time ago, actually about 20 years ago. And I was preaching this message and all of a sudden I felt inspired by the Holy Spirit. And I was chasing this rabbit like you know like preachers often do. Except for when I got about 15 minutes into it, I remember I realized it was totally unscriptural. Yeah. Like I don't I don't think that's funny. He's not talking about like when he was a new convert and, you know, leading his first Bible study for the for the youth group. He's saying this as like a seasoned pastor. And this is some of the deeper like methodology issues I I I I find concerning at Bethl like like they're they're laughing at this stuff. This is this is this is this is this f like he's making jokes about this stuff that like yeah I went on a rabbit trail for 15 minutes and it wasn't biblical. Why were you talking about it in in the first place? Oh god, >> spirit. >> And he put quote quotation marks and >> I was chasing this rabbit like you know like preachers often do except for when I got about 15 minutes into it I remember I realized it was totally unscriptural and I go oh that's not actually in the Bible and then I just went on to change the message back. Bill's in the front row and he's just like unbelievable. So you know so she she's like she's been with me since she was 12. So she's like, "There's no delay." So, you know, all of these things are just they're they're the evolution of shephering people that aren't in the room. Trying to understand what is our responsibility for people who aren't in the room who still call us father >> and and and and to think that there is no responsibility isn't actually biblical. You think about David and and you know, uh >> Yeah. Yeah. to to think there's no responsibility though to go on a 15-minute unbiblical tangent as a pastor of a massive massive movement and maybe they weren't as big when that happened. That that also just doesn't seem biblical. >> Um, for example, a guy named Josiah was prophesied to be king and he didn't become king. He it was it was 37 370 years from the prophecy to the time he became king. And it says Josiah was 8 years old when he became king. And his mother's name was Jadiah and his father's name was David as in King David. >> Only one thing. David's been dead for 400 years. But how many know your personal victory when you win a personal victory with God, you become a corporate covering. So that people who identify with Christ identified with King David who who who was, you know, a man after God's heart. I'm pointing out that that David was responsible for people that weren't even on earth. He he wasn't on earth. They weren't on earth when he was on earth. So, so there, so there is I don't I'm trying to process externally with you. I never even thought about these things until a few weeks ago. I mean, in this way, like, wow, we are responsible for people we don't even know. >> And then we're trying to apply principles like like we would at Weaverville. Like there's a wolf among us. I I can tell you we've had three or four of those conversations in the 20 years we were in Weaverville. I I mean honestly in our elders meetings say that person leads people astray specifically I remember one and there was probably two or three who he would come into our church and he was known to do this in other churches and he would seduce our women he'd end up in bed with some of our newest believers and they would fall away >> and so he had a reputation for that. So we like we were you know we marked him on that way. It's like hey he can come in but he needs to >> behave. That was a good way to say behave. other things came into my mind. >> So, it seems like they have had to deal with this before in local church ministry and they've had to create some sort of systems or some sort of processes to protect people. That's good. That's encouraging to hear. Okay. Okay. So, let's hear how this connects to what's been happening with Shawn Bolts and the data mining and the allegations and the witnesses of essay. Let's see what happens. and and and you know and I remember that a couple of people got invited out because of their there actually were at that time hopefully they got converted but they were actually seducing people and so yeah which which believe it or not the scriptures lay this out in 1 Corinthians chapter 5 that if someone's sexually immoral in you are to cast that person out right but now I'm writing to you 1 Corinthians 5:11 but now I'm writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but it's immoral or greedy, an idolatrer or slanderer, a drunker to swindler. Do not even eat with such a people. What business is it of mine? Judge those outside the church. Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked person from among you. Yes. So there is a scriptural mandate for this to expel the wicked from among you. You know, and so you know it's like and then and then we have on the internet we have people applying those principles that we live by. Keeping people safe. Are you a good shepherd? Are you warning people about wolves to a global audience? And I'm like, well, those are really good questions. Those are really good questions because the other thing that's happened in the 21st century is there's no more family talks. You don't you don't have a family talk. So, you know, where where um where Jesus talked about in Matthew chapter 6 when he talked about forgiveness and he said that if if you go to a person and he's sinned against you and then you take another person and then you take another person and that doesn't work, you tell it to the church. >> Well, there there's no such thing as telling it to the church without telling it to the world anymore. >> That might that might create a unique obstacle. Uh that doesn't mean you don't still walk through those principles when someone sins against you. >> If you expose somebody from the podium within a day, people who you didn't plan to have that message sent to them have that message sent to them. Yeah. >> And you have to decide like are you really really really really really sure that you want to publicly expose somebody who's in some form of the process. Are you ready for that? I I don't know if you have to be really really really really really sure to know that if someone is sinning and abusing people in your midst, you are to expose them. And the scriptures say in first Timothy, it says, 'Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. But those elders, those overseers, those people that you're putting in positions of leadership, you're calling family, you're calling some of the most prophetic people, you know, which is some of the stuff they said about Shawn Boss, the books that you're endorsing. But those elders who are sinning, you are to reprove before everyone so that the others may take warning. Okay? So it says to reprove before everyone. So let's look up what this word reprove means. Expose. >> Eleno. >> Eleno. Okay. I love Logos Bible Software as you know their partner here. You guys can get a three uh free 60-day trial. Stuff like this, right? You're looking at an NIV and it says reprove. Okay, that's a fancy word. What does it mean? It means to expose, convict before everyone. Point out fault, prove guilty, expose before everyone. Now, you do you do we do it flippantly? Absolutely not. We don't do it flippantly. We do it by two or three witnesses. The question is, was there two or three witnesses? So, it's not about being sure, sure, sure, sure, super super sure, sure, sure, sure, sure sure. That's how the atheist argues. How can I be sure? I don't know if I could place my faith in a God that I'm not super duper duper sure about, and certain about. Well, that's not how faith works. That's not how confidence works. That's not how we're supposed to behave. It's not about being super duper sure. It's about doing what is right and reasonable under the given circumstances. So, I I I I personally am not tracking the logic here. I understand a desire to love people in their process. I don't understand a desire to love people in their process while they're sinning in positions of leadership and it's bringing harm to other people. We're not talking about someone uh that may deal with anger and they're working at it through therapy and aggressively. We're talking about someone that is dealing and it and there's victims involved. There are victims involved in this >> cuz cuz you don't know people like you did when you're in Weaverville. like are you really sure that's the right thing to do? Because as soon as you say, you know, Henry is unsafe or say something like that, you just destroy that person's reputation. You just better be very sure because >> putting something on the internet's like like the book of life >> like it doesn't get erased. >> Or what Jesus said, every word that you spoke on earth, you will give an account for. Like the internet's like that. You you can't take it back. You can delete it from the internet, but someone copied it and it's back up there again. >> Mhm. >> So, I'm pointing out that the process of how you deal with people and how well do you know that problem? How well do you know that person? Do you actually are you sure that that person is actually trying to be evil? You notice the slight of hand? Are you sure if that person is trying to be evil? Well, the scriptures never talk about needing to be sure if someone's trying to be evil. The scriptures just say, "Hey, expel the wicked from among you if there's someone sexually immoral." Even says to hand him over to Satan earlier in that passage. That's that's that's pretty heavy. Hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. And here it says, "So that others may take warning." That you are to expose, rebuke, reprove before everyone so that others may take warning. Again, you don't do this flippantly. you do this when it's brought by two or three witnesses. So again, this this desire to say are you sure? So now it's not are you sure? So one, it's are you sure? Two, are you sure that he's doing it to intentionally? Sometimes people can sin against others and it not be intentional. Sometimes people, yes, might just be broken people bleeding on other people and bringing harm to other people. Whether it's intentional is irrelevant. Would we say if if this was happening to his grandkids or his kids and and and someone they called a prophet and put on stage and endorsed his books was exposing themselves and murbating in front of his kids and grandkids. Would he need to be sure? And we need would he need to be sure that he wasn't doing to intentionally be evil? The process of how you deal with people and how well do you know that problem? How well do you know that person? Do you actually are you sure that that person is actually trying to be evil? >> I don't think we have to be sure that they're trying to be evil. I think we need to go on the account of two or three witnesses. That is what I think the standard is. Not needing to be sure if they're actually trying to be evil. I'm not sure where he's getting this standard from at all. Uh, you know, my kids uh uh several of my grandkids live in town and um several of them um went to school here and uh two or three Kathy can correct me, but I think three of my grandkids who went to high school here, they went to BCS. When they got to high school, the whole Bethl stigma uh that happens in our our own community here, um because of Bill and I leading this thing, my grandkids were constantly harassed for their grandfather's position. >> And that's not all right. I don't want anybody's kids harassed. I don't want anybody's grandkids harassed. That is not That is not cool. Don't harass their their family. Don't harass their kid. Don't do any of that's that's dumb. That's dumb. And that's not cool. Even if you have theological disagreements, that's not all right. And finally left school. I'm pointing out that what people say on the internet costs families. And if your father does something that feels wrong or whatever and your last name is, I don't know, let's say Jones just cuz it's a popular name or Smith and you're a Smith and your father did something or your mother did something and you publicly rebuke that person, you shamed the entire family line. Like, are you really ready to do that? I I I think there's a way to correct behavior of individuals without shaming the entire family. I understand what he's saying and what he's getting at. Uh but yes, sin that's practiced like that comes with consequences. This is again that's I don't mean to keep hounding scripture so that others may take warning. This should horrify us. This should create a healthy fear in all of us so that we don't behave this way. Like are you are you ready to do that because you can't take that back? And if you find out later like, "Oh, there's a lot of other circumstances." Or that person that that you thought was a woof is actually somebody and you hear their story and they're like, "They were raped when they were little. They grew up on the street. They're I I I went to juvenile hall the other day. I I was visiting and uh and uh for the first time in a long time, I used to go to juvenile hall in Weville and and there was 22 guys uh young, you know, they're all juveniles, right? So below 18." Yeah. But they were juvenile delinquents. The behavior wasn't wonderful in there. It wasn't the easiest place I've ever spoke before, but I' i've done it before. And there was one guy in there that was obviously the ring leader and he interrupted several times and uh the Lord gave me a real love for him just in that hour and a half we were in there and I was just connected with him and I was thinking yeah you and I probably have a lot in common bro cuz I grew up super broken. So afterwards he asked if I could meet with him. So would you meet with me? And I looked at the guard and the guard's like, "Do you want to?" So I went in the room and he looked at me and he started sobbing and he said, "My mother chose when I was three instead of me." And he began to talk about how his mother and father became addicts when he was still a toddler. And he was never loved because I spoke on the love of God. And all of a sudden, within 5 minutes of him speaking, I've never met him before. Well, I was in the room with him for an hour and a half. I never talked to him before. All of a sudden, I'm like, "This man's story makes me understand why he's in this prison. This man is a hurting, broken man." Who can I say? Yes, he made bad choices, but some bad choices were made for this boy. >> Yeah. Listen, uh I think this is very valid. Hurt people hurt people. However, just because hurt people hurt people, that doesn't mean you allow hurt people to be around and hurt your multiple things could be true at the same time. I'm glad that that that Chris has a heart to humanize bad guys, humanize people. And yes, sometimes people sin against us in awful ways and then we might re recreate and and and redo that trauma on other people. I am well aware of that. Okay. Um, however, when there's other people involved and you are an overseer over those people and you have spiritual authority over those people, it would be the same as the people who I allow in my home. Certain people I'm friendly with in the community, they don't get to come into my home. Certain people I might see and I share the gospel with them on the street, they don't get to come into my home. They don't get to be around my kids. That is not legalism. That is not religious. That is wisdom. That is discernment. And unfortunately, the more I listen to him, the more it just sounds like there is a a general lack of discernment with very basic categories. Who you allow around your people is different than the person you are trying to share with and trying to get off and trying to help detox. >> And I'm not sure what kind of a start he had and I'm not sure how many people in this room with that start wouldn't end up in there. And I understood him and him and I when we spent 15 minutes together and by the time he left we had a bond. We understand each other and I'm like that kid's not a woof. Yes, he's a criminal. Let's get probably incarceration best thing that ever happened to him right now because he can't control himself from the inside out. So he has to be controlled from the outside in. >> Interesting. Incarceration consequences for his actions are the best thing that happened for him. That is so fascinating. Yet when we look at the scriptural consequences which is expel the wicked among you, reprove them before everyone. For whatever reason, they did not see it in the interest of themselves, the church, whoever to walk out said consequences. But those consequences were the best thing that happened for that young man. Even though he his intention wasn't to be a wolf, he was by happen stance landed in prison and because of the thing the way he was sinned against. Fair enough. But yet the consequences were the best thing for him and the best thing for society. Chris, your own illustration is working against you, brother. And again, I reached out to to Chris over Instagram. I know he read the DM. I offered to speak to him privately. And and I don't I don't take any joy in making this video. But but my point is is that when you get to know people and you walk with people, you have another perspective >> and you're like, "Yeah, that person's pretty destructive." But there are lots of other dynamics going on. Are you with me? >> And then there's then there's people who are in on the internet and they are the victims of some Christian, maybe some Christian, some Christian leader. It's all above, right? It's it's all over the place actually. And uh and maybe you know the leader and maybe you know the person and they're like, "This leader did this to me and they did this to me. They did this to me and you're like, "Okay, that okay, first of all, I know that guy. Wow, that's shocking that he behaved like that." Shocking. >> I know that guy. I know that guy. You guys wrote forwards to Shawn BS's book. You guys brought uh Shawn BS to give prophecies so folks would go into marriages and business ventures together. You guys, you you publicly endorsed him. who brought other people around that you had to tell some folks in your congregation not to go to their house. This is what what this is about. This is the sonatic church >> testifying of this right of Bob Hartley. >> Okay, you guys can watch it. I know I know that guy. That's No. No. You didn't just know him. You celebrated him. You championed him. You literally endorsed him. That's not the same thing. That is not the same thing. >> It's sad how destructive you can be and how hypocritical you can live and how you can build trust people people get to trust you because you are a spiritual leader. You walk in a powerful gift and yet you yourself are broken and you yourself you yourself are not a noble woman or a noble man. And you are leading people astray not necessarily because you're a wolf but because you're broken. And just like you said earlier, the best place for that young man was to be in jail for a season. What is the spiritual equivalence of justice or charismatic jail for folks that are sinning against others? Even if their intent isn't to sin against, even if they can't control themselves or they're a victim of their happen stance, what what is that? And people expect you to be well because of your artic how articulate you articulate you are in the podium or how gifted you are in your amazing gift of healing or prophecy or whatever. And yet there's a big old broken piece in you that nobody knew about until people were got closer to you. But then also sometimes you know the other side of the story because you know the person that's making the complaint and you're like oh yeah I I know that this is a two there's two stories here. And of course, if one person shares their story, then the other side of the story is not shared. And it feels like there's only one side of the story. >> But it's not just it's not just he, he said, he, she said. It's multiple people coming forward to you guys. Multiple people telling you guys about this sort of stuff. It's more than one. I don't know if all dozen potential victims came to you, Chris, personally, but it's more than one. That's that's the issue in this. I remember I worked for a man for seven years and I love the man very much. I was >> So he gives an example of working for a man for seven years. The guy would make him lie, told him he wouldn't lie for him anymore. And then eventually the man came to Jesus. Uh not not the same place. The you were wrong for lying to him back then. And even if he came to Jesus, that doesn't mean that it's okay to allow people in the pullpit to lie or to abuse others. >> And I was of course polarized by my side of the story. But the fact that I wouldn't say I'm not saying that for five years, several times a week, probably something else wrong. Are you with me? >> Again, his own illustration is working against him. You're talking about working a secular job when you were working for a boss that made you lie as a mechanic cuz you would say the car would be ready in a few hours, but it hadn't even been taken in yet. You kept lying for him. Then finally, five years in, you said, "I'm not going to lie for you anymore." and you said there was something wrong with you. Is it possible that you guys not warning people ahead of time? Is it possible that you guys not being more clear and direct with your congregation and your flock ahead of time? Is it possible that that is the same pattern that was repeated to confirm that perhaps there's something wrong, your language, not mine, with the culture of Bethl? Is is that a possibility? is this is this entire story he told Freudian slip >> and I I'm just pointing out that there's so much stuff that happens on the internet like Bethl doesn't protect PEOPLE DID THIS THING TELL ANYBODY it's like yeah there's more to that story now here's the other challenge there's more to all the stories there's more to every story but what is again what is the standard of scripture do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. In Matthew 18, we see Jesus saying, "Bring a witness, right? Bring someone with you." We see there's there's an escalation that happens. Let's look at it. If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church. And if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or tax collectors. Truly, I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven. This idea of two or three witnesses is in the words of Jesus and in the words of Paul. I'm not sure why that is so difficult to acknowledge as a standard to which reasonably conclude that someone is an unsafe person and should be warned. I'm I'm not sure why that is unreasonable. >> One of the things that happens in pastoral care and probably you when you counsel your friends is that you they tell you things they've never told anyone else because they trust that you're going to be that you're going to be that you're going to get confidentiality and you're not going to tell anyone. And and you win people and people need to confess their sins, right? Because if you confess your sins, first John, then he's faithful to forgive your sin to to to forgive your sins and cleanse you from all righteousness. But it comes with confess, right? First, so you you one of the things that happens in counseling and pastoral care and just friendship is that after a while, people get to trust you and they tell you things that they're ashamed of and you pray for them and you know things about them >> and you would never take that information and give it to anyone else. >> Yeah. I don't think saying this person is unsafe. Stay away from him flock is the same as you revealing what caused them in the way they were sinned against to sin in that way. We don't we don't need to know about what happened to to to this person or to Shawn BS or why they behaved that way. We don't need you to expose that side of the story. That side of the story is generally irrelevant to to the sin that they committed against someone. That may be relevant to a memoir they want to write. that may be relevant to the confession or if they want to take ownership of that publicly but that's irrelevant to the actual transgression that happened. >> So when people are telling somebody's story that they were this or this happened to them or or there was you know all these things that happened and you like know the rest of that story and the only way you could defend yourself is to tell the rest of that story. >> You don't you don't have to defend yourself. That sounds like justification. It sounds like you're justifying why you didn't intervene. Or worse, you're justifying the person that committed the sin and saying, "Well, you don't know, but they really were, you know, fondled as a child and that's why they're recreating the trauma." Which is which is common in in in certain situations like this. Well, they were sent against and this happened to them and therefore no one's no one's asking that. Again, I don't know if Chris is aware of how many fallacies and logical inconsistencies that he is demonstrating here. >> Your life as a minister is over. >> Yes. >> When you bring confidence to defend yourself. >> Yes. And no one's asking you to do that. No one's ever asked you to do that. Chris, >> your life is over. >> Yes. >> When that person sees their story that they told you in confidence >> on the internet. >> Yeah. Don't ever do that. You can say, "Well, let me tell you about Henry." >> Let me tell you about Josephine. >> Don't do that. >> Yeah, she said this. That's true. But let me tell you this backtory here cuz Proverbs says when the first person tells a story, it seems to be right till the second person tells the story. >> That's not the context. That's not the context of Proverbs. Proverbs is talking. Let's look at the verse in Proverbs. That is not what Proverbs is saying. In a lawsuit, the first to speak seems right until someone comes forward and crossexamines. In a lawsuit, this is this is if there is a lawsuit happening, the first to speak seems right until someone comes forward and cross. That is not saying that when someone sins against someone that this is then handled after someone comes along. Well, you don't really understand what what their story is that led them to behave this way. That that is not what this verse is saying, Chris. And I'm I'm I'm guys, I'm a charismatic. I love the gifts of the spirits. I I I I am not a cessationist. I am not a a heresy hunter, Bible thumper. But this is just a basic mishandling of the scripture. >> The problem is the second story can seldom be told when you're a pastor. >> That's not a never share with anyone. >> This is defend yourself. This is shifting the goalpost to a ridiculous borderline cartoonish position. No one is asking you to share their backstory of the ways they've been sinned against and break that confidence and trust. >> And so you must stay silent in the midst evac accusation because you are a shepherd of a flock, not an attorney. >> You must stay silent in the what? >> Evacus. And so you must stay silent in the midst of accusation because you are a shepherd of a flock, not an attorney. What? You must stay silent when there's credible accusations. We're not just talking about any old allegation. We're talking about credible accusations, multiple people coming to you. Man, this was hard to listen through the first time. This is harder to hear it a second time. And you have to navigate silence with grace or you get bitter. And I want to tell you why I know you get bitter because I've been bitter before. And I like to debate. My wife can tell you. And I am really good. Chris, I I reached out to you privately. I've really tried to have this conversation with you privately. We could have had the private debate. And I and I would have remained completely confidential. If you wanted to have that conversation, we could have had it. I mean, I know I'm I'm just some nobody on the internet to someone like you. I get it. But we reached out. Mike Winger reached out. A lot of people have reached out. Reached out to you and told you I was going to make this video. You had an opportunity. Good at it. I am really good at debating. I can win most debates. But this isn't about debating. This is about shephering of movement with grace and honor. This sounds like hubris. Based on the number of logical fallacies you've just displayed within what the first 30 minutes of this talk, I don't think you're as good at debating as you think you are. So whole documentaries get made about Bill and I and our movement and hours of YouTube videos where someone makes thousands of dollars telling a story. >> A story in quotation marks. So, it's important to know, and Mike Winger just tweeted this, and none of Mike Winger's videos are monetized. I guarantee you this video will not make me thousands of dollars. Probably won't make me hundreds of dollars. So, I'm not sure who this is at, but it's it's definitely not Mike Winger. And this is something I told him privately. Hey, just so you know, the guy who's really bringing the attention to this sort of stuff is not making any money off of this in any of his videos. Just so you know, let him know that. So I don't I I I don't understand the point of that statement and and even if they were how is that relevant to what's being discussed? How is that relevant to the conversation at hand? And people write me and like you did this and you should have and I'm like wow. Yeah. It's you know if I believe that story I would have quit the ministry a long time ago and you didn't you didn't confront evil. Nobody who knows me would ever accuse me of that. >> I don't think uh that has been the accusation towards Chris at all. I think the accusation has been you did confront Shawn BS. You went out. You sat with him. You confronted him. denied it and despite credible witnesses, you continued or Bethl continued. Maybe you maybe you felt uneasy about it, but Bethl continued to platform him. That is the frustration that people have. Not that you don't confront. I'm glad that you confronted him. I wish you would have st stood by that. I have never been accused of being afraid to confront anyone. >> That's just stupid. The whole front row is laughing because my challenge is Mark's laughing. He's been with me 27 years. My problem is I should shut up. My wife is forever. Don't not now. Don't say any Don't say everything that comes up on the screen. You know, I don't mean this like a holy way. Like I have an unhealthy no fear of people. Unhealthy. I could say anything to anyone. I have to manage the fact I don't actually care what you think. And I grew up in a house where my first stepfather for eight years beat my mother in the bedroom where my mother screamed for help and as a 5-year-old boy sitting at the door of her room. Well, the door was locked, begging for him to stop beating my mother. Listen, we can I can tell stories about experiencing uh domestic violence and seeing my mom get beat. I'm not sure how that relates to what people actually have concern about. And I mean, you guys see the dislike ratio. Almost half the people who watched this video disliked it, myself included. We'll look at some comments later, but people are, thank God, starting to finally wake up with the way Bethl has repeatedly handled this sort of stuff and waved it off. Telling stories about our childhoods doesn't deal with with the facts at hand. >> You have no idea what that does to somebody. I have a justice button that's probably off the charts. When somebody abuses somebody, I have to tone myself down and go, "Grace, do not kill this person. >> Don't kill this person." Yet, don't bring it before everyone. H like protector is not my weakness. So, if you hear stories about something that happened that I actually know about and it's like, "You didn't confront them." I'm like, "You don't know about it for reasons that I can't tell you, but let me tell you that did not happen." But not everybody who gets confronted repents. I >> mean, it almost sounds like he's acknowledging that he did confront Shawn and the and and the other guy. They just didn't repent. I I guess I'm not sure if that's an acknowledgement of that. And they do they take a little slither of in ownership at the end of this. >> You know, I wrote this. This might be better to read than try to talk to my tears. In America, we are innocent until proven guilty. When somebody allegedly commits a crime, they are guaranteed a fair trial. The justice process is designed to make sure the victim and the victimizer have an opportunity to share their story. Furthermore, they are trained. There are trained detectives who investigate all the facts of the case and present them to the jury. There is an attorney assigned to both the victim and the alleged uh predator or perpetrator. The case is laid out before a carefully selected nonpartisan jury agreed upon by the plaintiff and the defendant's legal team. The judge who conducts the case must be completely impartial, ensuring that the defendant and the plaintiff get a fair, unbiased trial. People are innocent till proven guilty in America. We gleam our justice system, believe it or not, from scripture. The idea of two or three witnesses gleamed from scripture, right? So much of our virtue ethic is gleaned from scripture. So to present this, well, our justice system has these checks and balances, but we just wave our hands because we don't know how to deal with injustice and and harm in the church. I I I just I can't I don't even know. I don't even know what to how to you can't you can't launch an investigation. You guys couldn't have earmarked some resources to sit down with every single witness, to sit down with every single victim, to sit down and hear their story, to allow the perpetrators to participate in some sort of investigation, and then to say, "Hey, if we find this, this happens all the time. There's entire firms that just that do just this. They just do investigations." It happened with the Dr. Michael Brown situation. There was an entire investigation done and the investigation concluded what the way the board didn't like it and then the board rejected it and then he he he played himself just like Bethl was playing themselves. I just I I I just can't imagine that they couldn't have earmarked 50 grand or whatever it cost to do an investigation on this. >> But not on social media. Social media's created a whole different dynamic. You see the false equivalencies? Justice system versus social media. There wouldn't be a social media outcry had you done your part as the church to deal with this in a just manner >> in which you are guilty till you prove yourself innocent and then you >> social media is like that. That is fair. No one is saying this should have been tried by social media. We're saying we're frustrated that you didn't do anything about this, so it had to go to social media. There is a difference >> on to talk shows and podcasts to tell your case to a jury that has already determined you're guilty. >> I I I doubt any of this would have happened had Bethl just done their own internal investigation of the at the very least two two predators allegedly that they had in their mix. I guarantee you this never would have spilled over into social media. When there was children of some of these guys that came to you guys when there was witnesses that came, people that worked for them that came to you guys, this would have never spilled to social media had you guys done an investigation and said, "Yeah, we don't find them qualified for ministry. We're distancing ourselves. We don't recommend them. Avoid them. Market avoid." Had that h I don't think this would have caught the firestorm. It did. >> And if you're someone like me, I am blackmailed all the time. if you don't tell your story, we're going to tell everybody that you did this thing. I'm like, way I can tell my story is tell their story and I can't tell you their story because that's what shepherds do. >> Are you with me? >> And so we're in this really strange thing. And then there's the challenge like here's here's church discipline, right? Like if you if you um a child, we are mandatory reporters. >> And by the way, we've reported many many many many over the 27 years I've been here. some of some people who consider my friends unfortunately and you have to call CPS and you have to call the police and you need to do it swiftly and by the way you should do it swiftly because kids should not be in danger by their parents their friends their cousins whoever and we've done that many many times so what are mandatory reports and and and and actually it's good because you turn the situation over child protection services and over to police and these guys this is what they do for a living like they have investigators they they understand child it's all they deal with all the time they they they understand They're experts in that area and and we have a really good relationship with them in town. So, they work with us, too. They're not our enemies. They're not like, "Oh, we're going to turn them over to the system." We're like, "No, no, many of them are believers. We love them. They love us." And uh and it's good. And so, so I maybe he doesn't understand a power dynamic. It's not the same as an adult versus a child, but there is a massive power disparity dynamic between clergy and positions of leadership and the people that work for them. So whenever there's that much dis I mean some people argue that any sort of intimacy between clergy and everyday people or the lay people or whatever you want to call it is clergy abuse abuse. Maybe he doesn't quite understand that but that's why you have you should have systems in place or be willing to to to to do investigations, right? Because we're not talking about a he said she said oneoff situation. We're talking about multiple people. I I want to keep prefacing that because if this is just one person, that would be different. Anybody can say anything about anyone, right? But we're talking about multiple people saying these sorts of things. And then the there's a process that the the victim and the victimizer have to go through. It's a legal process. And the and the and and the the people who are working with them have authority like to even put you in prison. So it's not like, hey, if you don't repent, you can't come to our church. It's like you go to jail. you you might go to jail anyway. And so they're they're they're giving tools for people have to go through a process to make sure that they don't do it again or whatever or the the child home or whatever. When something happens in church that's wrong, but it's not illegal. People have this idea that if you're Bill Johnson or Chris Felton and you confront somebody, they're like, "Oh, I'm sorry. I'm never going to do that again." And what what do what if you confront someone and they say, "I didn't do that. I don't have investigators. >> I don't have investigators. It is important to note that Bethl Ministries often refers to a network of different legally separate entities with major ones reporting as of 2024. Bethl Music reported $19 million in total revenue for the fiscal year ending in 2024. That's just Bethl Music. Bethl Media generated 864,000. and Bill Johnson Ministries reported $1 million in revenue. Okay. Bethl Church is not required to to file a public form with the IRS. Bethl Church and Reading has reported significant revenue with figures cited around $45 million according to Zoom Info and older reports mentioning nearly $60 million in 2018. I don't know if those numbers are accurate. Let's cut those in half. Let's say $20 million. The response is I don't have investigators. You didn't have a $100,000 to pour towards an investigation of people you called a profit and you championed and you endorsed their books and after allegations came out still did press with them and wrote forwards to him. I don't have investigators. By the way, if Beth was writing hit records that people sing in church, I'm not mad at them for making money off of that. You could argue the logistics of the CCLI system and all that. That's that's that's another conversation. But but they don't have investigators. a court that, you know, when they say everyone in no one in prisons, everyone in prison is innocent. I don't have a court system that figures out that the person that says they're innocent isn't innocent. I have no process. I have me talking to them and they go, "I didn't do it." Well, Joanne says she did. Well, I didn't. Okay. Now, what do I do? You just You just threw wave your hands. What do I do? Well, he said, she said, "What do I do?" You you get an investigation going. Here you go. I got you. I got you, Chris. I got you. Firefly. Independent sexual abuse investigations. Specialized team works to find truth while shedding a light on the darkness. Here you go. Great resource. Matter of fact, I'm going to message him this link right after we're done. >> What do I do? Well, five people said you did it. They said I did it. Like this isn't there's no I don't I don't I think there's like >> Okay, so this says two or three. Two or three. If five said you did it, I think that warrants at the very least even if you say you don't have the the means to do an investigation. At the very least the ability to mark and avoid and say this is a dangerous person, we remove our endorsement from him. Avoid this person and re-evaluate any words you may have gotten from this person and be very careful. That's beyond reasonable. this idea that like leaders, spiritual leaders have some sort of authority that they can press people into. You go, "We can't go to our church if you do that." Great. There's 3,000 other churches I can go to. >> I think the idea is you warn people in your church that you exposed to this person. >> Are you following me? And and there's just like this idea that when you confront somebody, they're going to repent. And then if they don't, you should tell everybody. And by the way, you can't just tell the church because you're going to tell the whole world that the church has this major flaw. The people you're trying to lead to Christ, you're going to say, "Don't trust churches because they are made up of really broken people." And you get to tell the whole world that churches are not safe. Or you tell them about a you tell the churches that you love about a specific leader that is not safe. I think people are sophisticated enough to understand that just because bad things happen by a spiritual leader doesn't mean that all churches are bad. Unless some people don't know how to process and think about that, which I guess that happens. Hasty generalization fallacies. But yes, you should you should tell people you should have told your church should have warned people when you interact and and defend yourself on social media because you're not just talking to the audience you want to talk to. You're talking to every unbeliever who wants to chime in on why they don't go to church because those people are insane. >> How do you think this looks to the unbeliever when there's a video that's revealed of you guys doing this or or not doing anything rather? How do you think that looks? What do you think is worse? You guys launching an independent investigation holding these people accountable or at the very least marking avoiding and warning your own church? Or do you think the unbeliever goes, "Man, I don't go to church. on a rock church, but I I respect churches that hold their own accountable. What do you think is the most virtue v virtuous thing to do? To cover up, to ignore, to wave your hands, or to lean in and say, "Yeah, we got some issues, but but we we we call out our own and we deal with it." >> And you know, Paul spoke to it in 1 Corinthians 6, and he talked about Christians suing Christians and going to law courts, but but but he but he said this. He said, "You're going to go to court in front of a judge who doesn't know God." And then he goes, "Why not rather be wrong?" And and and of course, this doesn't mean like, "Well, I got I shouldn't tell anyone." No, I'm talking about I got this person's beating me. I'm not talking about that. I'm just talking about the fact that when you those things, sure, you should call the police. Absolutely. If I if I grew up today, my stepfather would be in prison. I would have made the first 911 call. We didn't have 911 in those days. I I'm all for that. I'm pointing out that in the internet, Christians war against one another in front of the world. >> They were trying to win. Do we war with one another or do we war with injustice and when it's not properly dealt with in a church hon I I think that's a that's a category error on its part and then they put it on my social page that has you know I got 700,000 people on my social pages all together and then they put on there and like if I respond on my social page they got 30 people on theirs as I respond on mine I just included 700,000 people who didn't know that situation now I get to tell everybody and I get to tell every person who doesn't know the Lord who chimes these Christians are fighting one another over this person being abused. And I'm like, these are things that should be family problems that we work out together. And if police need to get involved, let's do that cuz those are tools we have. And people make huge amounts of money in media. You tell a story. And their media sites become boxing rings where they invite you to fight this guy and their pay-per-view. And it's all in the name of helping the church get rid of the woops. Listen, I I think there are people that do this that take it too far. I've been critical of those people. I think the person that's putting the pressure on Bethl right now is not doing that. So, you could point to a Julie Royce. I think she's taking it too far. I've told her that privately. I've said that about her publicly. That's not who's bringing alarm to this. Mike Ringer is bringing alarm to this. Who de not has none of the videos demonetized and is not making any money off of this. And and those, by the way, those videos would crush if he were making money off them, but they but he doesn't. >> That's very difficult and it's very complex and sometimes it's even right. Now, what's interesting to me is um I'll be done in a few minutes if you're getting bored. Um I'll never talk like this in an open forum. Um the other thing is when someone fails, was their ministry bad? I was thinking about Jesus chose 12 guys and one of them was Judas. and he was a thief and Jesus made him the treasure. Now, if I know that Richard is a thief, which he is, he's a godly man, I'm not going to put him over the finances of Bethl Church, even if he's a reborn thief. I'm not going to put him in his weakness. If I have a person who was once an alcoholic, I'm not going to have them have bar ministry. Not unless I know for a fact that they've really proven that area in their life. But Jesus makes the guy who's a a thief, he puts him over the money box. I mean, why not Matthew? >> He's a tax collector. He probably knows something about money. But here's the crazy thing. Jesus sends them out by twos. So, we don't know who, you know, Peter and John pretty popular. We know that James and John pretty popular. But I don't know who went with Judas. But you can't hide when you're in a group of two. I am so confused on the point here. Is he now insinuating that the people that traveled when they were out two by two by Judas knew he was a thief? Or that because Judas was a thief, therefore it's like like what is the point of of any of this? And how is this relevant to if someone is being used by God, but their character is a mess? God can still use the mess, but you still warn people and protect them. If someone's being used by God, that doesn't mean you don't want like this is where you can hold tension here. Now, if someone's has a track record of primarily prophesying information that's publicly available on Facebook and then giving people life decisions about where they should go, who they should marry, what they should spend their money on, you might want to warn people about that. That's the issue. We're not saying that this person can't be used by God, has never been used by God, is a is intentionally a wolf. We're saying there probably should have been warning when there became reasonable pieces of evidence to suggest that this person is lying and cheating and manipulating and deceiving to to some degree with the prophetic words that they're giving when their own son comes forward. Probably should have been a warning to some degree towards your church of people who got words from this person. Hey, we found this out from credible sources. Be careful with how much you take these words to be directly from the mouth of God. And Jesus sends you out like, "Kill the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons. I'll meet you over here." Can you imagine if Judas got there and every time they get in a a ministry situation, he has to go for a smoke? I mean, the guy that's with him is going to go when Jesus goes, "One of you betrayed me." He's go, "It's got to be Judas." And I'm pointing out that Jesus didn't have any problem with putting someone who was really broken on the ministry to him. And he didn't go, "Well, Judas's ministry is not good." I wonder if when Judas finally betrayed Jesus, if people like, "Hey, he gave me a prophetic word. It must not be right. Would Jesus send Judas out if he knew he's giving fake words?" And I'm pointing out that Romans 11 says, "The gifts and calling to God are irrevocable." When God gives you a gift, he doesn't take it back. >> Yeah, I I'm still not tracking how this connects. I understand that the gifts are irrevocable. That verse is actually about Israel, believe it or not. So, I'm not I'm not sure if we would connect it to spiritual gifts, but let's just say I grant that for a second. Yes. That does not mean that the person with the that that that's known for faking words is safe to consume without at least the caveat that be careful with this person because he has a track record of faking words. So people who are really broken sometimes do great ministry and some of these people that are on the internet the ones the few that I know that people talk about have a great ministry but some of them are like they use social media to get words of knowledge. I'm like, "Yeah." And I don't know why they did that because the ones that I know, I brought them in rooms many times when there was there no way they could have known who was in that room. And they called out people's names, called out people's phone numbers when I was It's so weird to hear him say that because from my understanding, and this is my recollection, I might be fuzzy on this. When he confronted Shawn Bolts, he tried to put him in a situation to do that and Shawn refused. that maybe that's my recollection of what was publicly posted about the text messages. I don't remember if it was ever screenshot in text messages. So, I'm not sure if this is double speak or if the person who said that Chris said that, hey, I tried to put Shambles in a room with other people and he refused to do it is lying or if if this is double talk or if he maybe he's just being ambiguous and not talking about Shambols. I don't know. was in on the couch for six months. One of those leaders who is famously infamous right now. It called me all the time, gave me great words, knew things about me that no one could know. So I'm like, great ministry doesn't mean you have that you have great character >> and bare character doesn't mean you don't have great ministry. Gosh, I hate to say that. I wish it did. That doesn't mean you don't when appropriate exposed to bad character. Someone could be charismatic. Someone may even have a gifting, but it's still your obligation to warn people about their bad character. Are you are you with me? And then we have people like Solomon. You know, Solomon started well. Like he God said in a dream, "You can have anything you want." And he said, "Man, God, you've given me these people." And then he here's what he said. I feel like a little child like I don't know what to do. I don't know how to go in and come out. I need wisdom. And God said, "Wow, not only am I going to give you wisdom, but because you didn't ask for long life, you didn't ask for the head of your enemies, you didn't ask for wealth, I'm going to give you long life, wealth, and you're going to be the wealthiest king who ever lived. And I'm going to give you wisdom." And it says this, "And Solomon was loved by God." And it says that Solomon loved God. And he wrote Proverbs. But it goes on to say, and I'm not going to read it because it's too long and I've already gone long. It goes on to say in first kingsap 11 that Solomon loved foreign wives and they stole his heart. It goes on to say that he built temples to their gods and he sacrificed children on those temples. Solomon made Hugh Hefner playboy mansion look like kindergarten. He created a cult from seven nations of women, built temples to all of them, and sacrificed children in a cult. At the end of his life, he built a harum with thousands of women in it all for. And we still read his books. And Solomon would be disqualified for ministry. And you see the consequences of this in David and Solomon's line. Solomon wrote Proverbs and then went through a wild crisis. He's going to say that he doesn't think Solomon repented. I would disagree. It seems like in Ecclesiastes he repented. In terms of in terms of just the data on this, just a quick search, it said based on a biblical account in First Kings 11, Solomon did not directly sacrifice children, but he allowed it. Supported and built high places for the worship of false gods, specifically Mole, which associated with the testable practice like child sacrifice. He didn't directly do it. But Solomon would be disqualified for ministry. Solomon would not be allowed to teach in your children's ministry. Solomon would not be allowed uh to to lead the the marriage ministry. Solomon would have disqualified himself from ministry. We have to be okay with saying that. That's not like based or controversial. That's just that's a a plain reading of what a New Testament elder and overseer is supposed to be. From the reading of Ecclesiastes, it sure does seem like Solomon repented towards the end of his life. But that those decisions were not without consequence to his line, to his lineage, to his children. You see it. No one says, "Well, Solomon was terrible person at the end of his life. I'm not reading Proverbs." >> No. Because he was in a right standing with the Lord when he wrote Proverbs and then he drifted. >> You still read his books. Let me say this. We still read Ecclesiastes. And he wrote Ecclesiastes when he didn't have relationship with God. But you still I think Ecclesiastes is Solomon coming back to his relationship with God. >> A gift of wisdom on his life. I pointed out that people can do really good ministry. Jesus encountered a guy. Remember this? He said, "Didn't I cast out demons? Didn't I prophesy? Didn't I didn't Didn't I do miracles?" And he said, "Get away from me. I never knew you." He didn't go, "No, you didn't." He just said, "I never knew you." And I'm pointing out that people that are being accused, not all them. I don't know all of them, but you know, the two two or three I know that are kind of always in this thing like they have really good ministry. Some of them we had here many times. And people like, "He gave me a word and now I know it was fake." I'm like, "How do you know that's fake?" Judas was a fake the whole time. And he did pretty good ministry. Judas never even got in trouble. It was Peter and John were like, "We'll call down fire." It wasn't Judas. And Thomas was like, "I doubt it." And this is really bizarre thinking, man. Like, because because Jesus knew Judas would betray him, therefore it's okay to allow Like, is that the logic? I don't know. But therefore, it's allow it's it's uh permissible to allow bad leaders to function in ministry without ever calling them to repentance or if they don't repent, ever holding them to any sort of justice. Judas is like, we can make money on on this situation. So anyway, I need to be finished. Galatians 6:1 says, "Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spirit shall restore him or them in a spirit of gentleness. Each one looking to yourself so that you too may not fall into temptation." I want to read you one more. Revelation 2:20. I have this against you that you tolerate the woman Jezebel who calls herself a prophetess and she teaches and leads my bond servants astray. So they commit acts of immorality and eat sacrifi things sacrificed idols. Listen to this the second part. I gave her time to repent and she does not want to repent of her immorality. I I don't know if you noticed this. She's like, "This is Jezebel famous for taking God's bondervants and drawing them into immoral." And what's Jesus's response? I gave her some time to repent. And worse yet, in the church, here's what I have against you. Not that you did it, that you tolerated it. It's It's like this man can't stop telling on himself. This is so poetic. I I am shocked that he does not see the irony in this. And by the way, you and I both gave her time to repent. You gave her way too much time to repent. You let her stay too long. I was going to leave her in for a while. You let her in too long. Are you with me? But my point is God's response to people who are even doing evil is I want to make sure that I make sure that I make sure that they don't want to repent. And I would say this that Bethl's mistakes shortcomings is that we're always a little late. This is as close as he gets to confessing any wrongdoing in this. He calls him mistakes. He calls them shortcomings. He never says we were wrong. He never says we sinned. >> Like why didn't you do it then? Because we're trying hard to see people redeemed. >> Why didn't you do it when you heard the first thing? I don't know. We're trying really hard to make sure that we're not the church of the Pharisees who have forgotten where we've come from. >> It's another false binary. You don't to hold people to a biblical standard doesn't make you a church of the Pharisees. You know, when the woman was caught in adultery and the Pharisees and came to Jesus and said, 'Hey, the law says we should stone. What do you say? I like his ultimate response. He said, "Yeah, probably a good idea. He who's he who's never sinned, get it started." Isn't it interesting he didn't say, "He who's never committed adultery." See, we have relative righteousness. >> See, when I see somebody that sinned in the likeness of the adulteress, I go, "Well, I can make a judgment about her. I can talk about her on my YouTube channel because I have never done that. >> And Jesus said, "Gra, if you've never sinned, get us started." >> I think he's conflating with the degrees of sin, with when sin involves victims, when there's power dynamics. All sin is not the same. All sin does not have the same consequences. for him to talk about a woman caught in adultery and Jesus saying those of you without sin shouse to first stones that is not the same as someone in a position of power that's not the same what King David did that's not the same thing and I'd like to point out that we end up with relative righteousness because I think as long as I'm better than you then I have a place to say something about it and I'd like to point out that Galatians Paul said make sure you who are spiritual that you restore people with a spirit of gentleness look into yourselves to make sure you don't fall into the same temptation. When we get the idea that someone we see on the internet, maybe who's wellknown or famous or not, did something really terrible and we think, I would have never done that. You don't know cuz you haven't been there. Prayerfully, you wouldn't. But we have become in the last 20 years a global community that spends a lot of time telling people whether they're wrong. You can post Jesus is amazing. I love Jesus. Jesus loves you. And somebody will write a negative comment. I did an experiment. I wrote I I was telling my friend, watch this. And I wrote Jesus loves you. And somebody wrote, "Well, the Bible says Jacob I loved and Esau I hated." Like you can't win. Someone's got to tell you like there is one verse in the Bible where God said he hated somebody and you just missed that one. And I'm just pointing out we become a we we we we live in a culture of fault-f finding and judgment and we we hear half the story and we and we have a lynch mob >> and we create there is a lynch mob society on social media that hears the story and for some reason they think if I really love God I will rise up and create justice for this person and they don't even know the person. So that desire to see justice is irrelevant if you don't know the person. Okay. Well, I know Shawn BS and I'm connected to someone who worked for him. I understand there's a broader toxicity of some of the online Christianity, but but but Mike Winger is connected to the victims. I'm connected to someone I used to work for. Yeah, we want to see the charismatic church do better. Jonah Bark was burned at the stake for being a heretic by the Catholic Church and 40 years later honored as a saint. >> These scientists are so weird >> was put on house arrest because he believed that the earth actually circled around the sun not the sun around the earth. He was branded a heretic and spent the rest of his life on house arrest by the Catholic Church. The church is famous for making judgments about people and I'm not participating in that no matter how much you taught me. I need mercy and I >> see it's like I won't participate in that. What did the scripture say? Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. those elders who are sinning, you are to reprove before everyone so that the others may take warning. First Corinthians, hand this man over, right? This is a great chapter dealing with exactly what he's talking about. Sexual immorality in the church. It is actually reported that there's sexual immorality among you and of a kind, even among the pagans do not tolerate. A man is sleeping with his father's wife. And then he says, I have already passed judgment. This is Paul. So Chris says he doesn't want to engage in judgment. Paul's saying, "I already pass judgment in the name of the Lord on the one who has been doing this so that when you assemble and I am with you in the power of our Lord Jesus present, hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord." He then goes on to say, "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside the church?" Chris is saying he doesn't want to do that. >> We're making judgments about people and I'm not participating in that. I don't know how you how you square that with scripture as a leader. I I just don't understand. I don't get it. >> No matter how much you taught me, I And the the the important note here is that this isn't a upand cominging leader who slipped up and had with his girlfriend. That person would be sat down in my church. For the record, this is not someone that had consensual with their girlfriend while they were leading in youth ministry. This is someone you put on the main platform, called one of your closest friends, a a prophet, endorsed his books and and celebrated and promoted from the main platform, wrote the forward to his book. The the things that there that that that there's more than three witnesses that are being alleged are not consensual. I need mercy and I want to always be overly merciful >> instead of overly judgmental and behind the scenes I'm very confronted and if there's a story about Bethl where a leader didn't get confronted confronted seriously confronted numerous times you just don't know the rest of the story but just because someone's confronted doesn't mean they'll And you have to decide, are you going to shame their whole family when you don't know them like you did in Weaverville? Are you sure that you want to make a permanent record of this person's failure? Are you sure? And having to answer that question is not easy. Not easy. Especially when your family is shamed every day for things that we did not do or that were blown out of proportion or were halftruths. I know what it's like to have a permanent record of documentaries against me for 30 second clips out of a 40-minute talk taken out of context, things people said, jokes you told. I don't >> Yeah, I I I don't think those are the same thing. I think the those things that have been hurled against Bethl that were wrong are wrong. That is not what's happening here. It's not I'm going to blast this person and say stuff and I don't know if they're true and it's not look the other way and yes I confronted them but I'm not going to do anything else warning my people there. There's a third option. You could have hired an investigation. Could you could have done that. Yes, it would have costed you a little bit of money. Sounds like Bethl has it from my understanding. don't want to create that for people who have failed. So they have a permanent record unless I am positive that that they are so destructive that it warrants telling the whole world including people who don't know God. This person should be marked forever for being a cheater, a liar. That is a big decision that most of us don't have to make, but we have to make them. And I do think we have erd at times by waiting too long. >> I appreciate him at least admitting that we've erred at times of waiting too long. The issue is even in this they still have not acknowledged what has been brought before them. They have not acknowledged the reality that they fell short here. They did not hire an investigation. They can still turn this around. They can still turn this around. And if they start an investigation, I will delete this video. I'm sure Mike will delete this video. Uh I I can't speak for Mike, but I I will delete this video if they actually bring on Firefly and do an investigation. >> But it is with right heart. >> Would you stand, please? >> So So it's like intentions. We're only measured by our intentions and not our impact. No. Sometimes our We could have good intentions and still have devastating impact and we're judged by our impact. And he gets a standing applause. And and just so you guys don't don't think that it's just me and it's just Mike and we're just these heresy hunting people who don't like Bethl. It's not other folks stepping up and finally saying something which I think is is great. Right. You you you now have uh Remnant Radio that's been fairly consistent on this. Darvo, you deny, you accuse, and then you reverse the victim and offender. I just finished watching the six-h hour, almost six hour video that Mike Winger did exposing the leaders who knew about the sins of Shawn BS and his harassment and abuses and data mining all out there. >> Right. >> Winger brought the receipts. And then this morning I get up and I hear about this sermon that Chris Valatin preached at Bethl and I immediately reached out to my remnant co-host and I said we have to respond to this. This is >> these brothers are charismatic. They they do entire conferences on prophetic and healing. This is not this is not a theological disagreement. >> A perfect example of Darvo. M >> his sermon has very little to do with the text of scripture but does give you a deep dive insight into the kind of pathology and psychology of Chris Valatin. Um it is a massive gaslighting session where he he quite literally tries to coach an audience who's upset that they didn't expose Shawn BS. They knew about the offenses. They knew about the sex harassment. They knew about the data mining and the victims weren't the first people they were concerned with. Their concern was destroying the reputation of Shawn BS. >> Tomorrow, Tuesday, this is going out there. We're giving you our response. >> Uh we'll be in the studio today crafting all of it. >> Praise God. Shout out to um the Revenant Radio guys. They have a video on this. You can check them out. Charismatics. I love fellow brothers and sisters debating these things. Uh, you saw the dislike ratio. I mean, the comments are pretty pretty rough. You know, Mike Winger's videos are monetized. There's a lot of comments here and I'm I'm glad that people and and it's not not this isn't just like people on the internet. It seems like seems like people are engaging with this, right? So, I'm a thirdyear BSSM alumni uh graduate and disappointed, hurt, and angry over Bill, Chris, and Danny and Bethl leaders have handled the Shawn Bolt situation. Literally, there are hundreds and thousands of your own people like myself who knew you were in who knew you when we were in Reading. I traveled with Bill, met uh one-on-one with Chris, and had personal relationship with many uh mid and senior leaders. It's sad. It's a sad day when the people who once looked up to and respected have utterly failed to protect the flock and enable such uh abject abuse of the body of Christ. This is a sad day. I hope that y'all look in the mirror and finally be honest about how much harm has been done. So, this is and and they like this about to like this comment. So, I don't know. Maybe they're they're engaging with them. I don't I don't see a comment response. Uh, but I'm glad that uh I'm glad that they're hopefully hearing people or someone on their social media is. So, man, that was really hard to get through. Um, I'm going to end this video with a prayer. I usually don't, but uh I think in this situation, I I absolutely need to. So, Father, I just pray uh I pray for for Bethl Church. I pray for the leaders. I pray for the impact they have. I I pray that uh there's still there's still time to turn this around. There's still time to turn this around. Even if the people that are being alleged to have done these things don't want to cooperate with an investigation, they can still launch one, Lord. They can still put resource aside towards this, Lord. And that what a beautiful what a beautiful story this would be if they were to actually take ownership, accountability, and create systems in place where people are not victims. And so, I pray for the victims. I pray for everybody impacted by this. Um, I pray for my friend that is personally impacted by this. And I pray you would just bring healing and comfort. Uh I pray uh for Mike Winger's ministry, Lord, as as he's getting a lot of accusations hurled at him, that you would protect him, continue blessing what he's doing. And I uh I pray for um the the the people at Bethl, Lord, the the the members at that church, Lord, that they would not uh just be okay with this, Lord. That that the people would speak out and this would bring change. This would bring change in the church, Lord, for the sake of your body, Lord. for the sake of of your people. Even if I don't uh like everything of their uh style of theology and the God told me card being dropped and all that stuff, Lord, um they're not beyond redemption, Lord. So, would you just do a incredible miraculous work there, Lord? I thank you, Lord. I love you and we pray these things in Jesus name. Amen. All right, guys. Um man, that was um that was rough. I'll see you guys later. This, Bethel Just Responded to Mike Winger..., YouTube, 01kfk8hzt772rzcqpg1sva74h4.