CHAOSS OSPO WG, Feb 5, 2026 ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/vVAGNWkQy78/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [CHAOSS OSPO WG, Feb 5, 2026](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVAGNWkQy78) Okay. So, welcome everyone to the Chaos OSBO working group meeting for Thursday, March 5th. So, thank you all for coming. Uh, we do have a really quick chair update which I will add in the notes. So, many of you probably remember uh Gary who was Gary White who was the co-chair with me for this working group and he has not been around lately. Um, it's for a very good reason. uh him and his wife had a baby and so he's been on paternity leave. Um so he's just been he's just been kind of uh absent and so um I talked to him about it a little bit and he's he's welcome to come back at any time but um it would be nice to have some have some co-chairs so that uh I don't have to run all of the meetings and so we have two new co-chairs. So thank you Natalia. Thank you Alan. So the three of us will now be will now be co-chairing this working group. So, I'm super happy to have both of you on board. Um, so I'm I'm absolutely thrilled to have some new new chairs. So, I think this is great. >> Thank you. >> Thanks, guys. Yeah, excited to be more involved in the OSO working group meetings. Yes. >> Awesome. Thank you. And and part of part of what spurred a lot of this is that I'm planning on taking uh most of April and or all of April and most of May off. Um so this was this is really timely because I'm definitely going to need some people to to run the meeting uh while I'm gone. So Alan and uh Natalyia have stepped up to do that. So I'm super excited and I'll I'll put some notes in the in the chair update in the minutes uh which I meant to do before. Uh, with that I'm going to stop sharing my screen and um turn it over to uh Carlas and uh you can take it from here. >> Yeah, thanks. So um I'm here today kind of on behalf of the to-do groups uh working group on the business uh guide as we call it open source in business um and I want to share some of the work we have done there. um and uh discuss ideas um how how to go about it. So on one hand that you are aware of what is happening there but also that that we get into a discussion about um how we could continue with with it especially with within ion metrics. We had the discussion a couple of times but um it's not as easy um as as as it um yeah would be good um so we we'll get to that. I have um brought a presentation. So let me try to share that. So you see my slides now. >> Yeah, looks good. >> Perfect. Good. Um so that's um as an intro um for um our discussion. Um so given status uh we call it um or this as this aspect um we call it the mechanics of open source in business um as I said it's a working group in as part of the to-do group um and um we have started that um I think two years ago already um there was a proposal to work on that um it came from um some discussions we had within the to do group about um how we interact with business people in our organizations and uh we realize that this is often not the usual discussion. Um we have within our peer group of to-do uh people who often have a technical background who sometimes have a legal background. Um of course there are also people who who have a business background. Um but what we realized is that um we we sometimes lack the material which is tailored to this target group and um yeah enough people found interest in writing something. So we made the formal proposal to create a working group um as as a subgroup in the tool group to work on the open source and business guide and the artifact um which is meant to um result from that is a white paper on open source and business. Uh we have a GitHub repository or part of the ospology repository here. So I have the URL here that's where all the material is we have created so far. Um and um that's also what I will refer to. So what I tell you now you can read the details um there in the repository. The goal of the working group is twofold. On one hand we want to um do this communitydriven guide like many of the other to-do group guides. um basically from within the group um more as yeah helper for us to spread the word um to define the um the terms we use there to write down the concepts um also discuss um a bit about how how this all fits together. Um so there the target group would be more uh people working on OSO and related functions. Um but we also want to have um another version and we sometimes call it the enterprise edition of of this uh which is um maybe a condensed guide. We we still have we'll have to see how how the exact format will look like which is directly targeted at business decision makers. what you could put on the desk of a CEO or a CFO or whatever of a company um who is interested or at least open to using open source um to accelerate their business. So um the the way how we structured that is um we basically looked at two um perspectives. Um one is um first we try to identify the elements um of how open source drives business. That's what we call the business drivers. And then in a second step and I will show you that uh in a second. Uh we looked at business model models how these drivers then are applied there. And u for the for the guide we also the plan is to have case studies where we look at concrete cases where we can show companies who actually have done it using open source successfully uh to improve accelerate uh their business make their business more profitable and also write this down I won't talk about that we are not there yet at the moment we are at the mechanics and the business drivers we identified there is Um this list here um the one which is probably the most uh widely used uh driver is adoption. So we know that open source is a great way to get adoption for for software. Um if you have a popular open source project this opens a lot of opportunities in many different ways. um you can build a business on that but you also can um yeah give it away for free and do something else with it um depending on on your actual business model. So this wide adoption is one one of the primary business drivers. It's also related to some others um but this is one we identified. Um contributions are another driver uh because that gives you the leverage to actually change the software you're using to influence the software which is on the market to work with others. So this also is a driver which is important. Um zero license costs is something which is um especially when you calculate business case is something which can be quite significant. Um if you don't have to pay license fees for a software this opens up business opportunities which otherwise are difficult. Um especially for example if you're in high volume markets where you would have to have a per per device license fee. That's where open source is really effective and has changed quite some markets. Transparency and public benefit. The these are two drivers which go more a little bit um in a direction which is um yeah also harder to uh to to get to grasp also harder to measure. We will come to that at the end. Um but transparency obviously is one one of the big values of um open source in the sense of ethical values but it also um has business value in direct terms because people can actually verify um their trust they they have in you by by looking at your code and public benefit is similar. Um obviously we have this public money public code mantra if if we invest public money in code that this should be available to society. Um that makes a lot of sense but that's also um it makes sense from an ethical point of view also from an economical point of view but that's already harder to to explain. Um um but it's definitely um a driver which can can be used to also take decisions and volunteers. Um um it's a little bit of a different quality of a driver because it's less an um yeah mechanic but more the the people who are driving the mechanics but volunteers obviously play in very important role in open source because they do a lot of work um but also because um yeah we have to be careful with these volunteers um because um they add value but they are not paid for it um in most cases. So we have to deal with that in a respectful way. So also this has to be something which is taken into account in uh business models. So this is a list of drivers um we identified and um now let's have a look at a couple of examples of business models. So this is not meant to be a complete list but some examples we also used as a starting point to discuss what kind of case studies we want to look at and the scheme is always the same. Um we basically look at the at the business model and then see what drivers are active there. I have some examples there. And the idea is to we could for example do something like draw a business model canvas um and see what what are the open source dynamics in this business uh model canvas. Where are the connections? We could put some errors into that. Um we haven't done this work. That's an idea of what what we want to work on in this uh working group. So as an um example um kind of the classical open source business model um you sell support and maintenance um for open source software um there are many examples where companies do that um and the drivers there uh adoption is um certainly one one of the things which um is very important there because um the more people use the open source software you support the bigger your market is and the more potential customers are out there. So it helps you to make open source software um successful even if it's for free in terms of license fees. Um but um then you have your service offerings around that. um the model relies on contributions um because if I want to support um open source software, I need to be able to change that and it just would not be economically uh viable to do that um without giving back um so contributions are crucial element here. And the third one um zero license cost um that's also um um something which plays a role here um because it changes a little bit the dynamics of the market because as I said before for example um in a market where you would pay license fees per per device um there are zero license cost change the change the model how how you actually would would sell to customers Yeah. And examples, the typical examples um are the Linux distributions. Um they do this model for for many many years and u it has proven to create a lot of value for for these companies but um obviously also for many of the customers they have. Then another um also kind of classical way to look at that is hosting software as a service. Uh so if I have have open source software and um I need to run run it to be able to use it and it's software which is possible or advisable or can't be done in another way to run as a software as a service then you you have to host it. Um there open source opens uh up um that that's a zero licensing cost driver. um you can actually provide hosting for software you don't own yourself, you have not developed yourself, but um open source gives you all what what you need to be able to offer that. Um good for customers because there's competition in the market, but also good for the providers because they have um the opportunity to do things without having to set up a huge software development effort. Um and adoption again is a driver here which is important because that's uh defining the size of your market. Again if many people use use software um then um and they need a service uh need to need hosting or software as a service for that um then you will have a lot of customers um and examples uh we are looking at here um WordPress is one of the huge examples doing that but also managed data services like a is is doing it um or one example from a specific domain in structure with canvas um that's from the um education area. um they they have um yeah pretty successful company there um which is based on this model and obviously cloud providers are doing that in a in a kind of general way um they offer a lot of managed services um on different levels also of management um and yeah clearly there is business to be made there but it's interesting to see that also the discussion there I mean how much open source is actually helpful for your business model how much open source do you need Um is it maybe can it also be u um yeah a problem um because you have competition. I mean we know the discussion about uh open source projects which changed their license because they think um cloud providers are extracting too much value from the market. Um it's it's an interesting discussion and I mean we don't have a conclusion here but it would be interesting to look deeper into that and also to look at numbers. That's where we come to maybe also metrics or at least um value assessment. Another business model we looked at is um standardization. Um this is something um where we often see open source um especially successful in establishing de facto standards because the software is widely available because it's transparent because people with different interests can can trust it because they can see it. they all um yeah stakeholders are on the same same same level. Um their transparency is an important driver um because that makes it um yeah easier to establish a standard uh because the trust which is related to that is kind of inherent in the model and uh it's not something you have to buy or sell. Um and adoption again um I think that's kind of the recurring theme here. Adoption always ex is accelerating business uh because the more people are interested obviously the bigger the market opportunities are and um yeah examples we listed here um Android would would be one example where um Google uh established a new standard for mobile operating systems in the market changed the market dynamic quite significantly. Um yeah it would be interesting to to also anal an analyze actually how open source this uh what what role open source plays there. I mean Android obviously is open source. Um maybe here is also the zero license costs in in u in in plays. Um but yeah it's it's definitely a dynamic which which was uh made possible by releasing Android as open source. Kubernetes is an an example from from the server um side cloud providers um again um for customers it's actually quite convenient that there's one Kubernetus um which is run by all um public cloud providers so that I can switch and I don't have to learn a different container orchestration system when I'm switching providers um yeah there are certainly more examples I also would be interested in u yeah ideas you see here what might maybe even better examples um how to illustrate this business driver of sanitization. So, and another one um and you might uh debate if that's actually a business model, but u donations are a model which uh quite a number of open source projects use to fund their development or fund a part of their development. Um I think it's good to treat that as well because um not business is not always done by companies but there are also individuals um there are nonprofit organizations involved and um yeah donations are I think quite an important um part of of the open source ecosystem. Um there we have the business driver of volunteers. Um so one a volunteer organization they have a really compelling story to ask for donations company probably wouldn't uh go with that and wouldn't be successful with that. Uh but the model here is maybe a little bit more on the individual level. Uh but it's certainly something which drives an ecosystem where also um at least part of the community can can make a living from uh contributing to open source projects and adoption of course again defines kind of the size of the markets. um examples uh Wikipedia is not primarily a software project but um I think they have probably the most visible donation campaign which is out there in in the space um the smaller ones but still very relevant ones are Libra office um they they fund the not all the development but they they fund the organization and have quite some resources there um also KDE project which is dear to my heart um has surprisingly um the last years really built uh donation campaigns which were much more successful than I would have expected. So maybe it's also something which is underused. Um you have to ask for donations. I I learned to get them. You won't get them just because it it would be good for you. And I think many open source projects are hesitant with with asking for financial help. Um there are lots of um yeah I think dynamics there which um you might not like or you would prefer to ignore but then still it's it's a it's a nice way if if you actually are successful with that. So that's a couple of examples. I think there are a few more in the in the draft of the guide. So if you're interested in that um look up the document on GitHub. Um one other aspect we um looked at given we have a business model we have identified how the business drivers um work how we want to apply them to accelerate that then the question is how do I do that in practice? What does this mean for my open source project? And there um we looked at Mozilla's framework for purposeful open source. Um that's actually a nice document. You might be aware of that. It's um it's a study they did um mostly for their own needs. So they have a framework how they run open source projects, how they um shape them, what is important there and they identified these archetypes and these archetypes actually map quite nicely to this business driver approach. So that we have um uh they define what they call archetype benefits. Um and they are quite close. they are a bit more more fine grain but they are quite close to what we defi defined as as business drivers and from that results um um an archetype which comes with certain traits how the project should be organized how for example it should involve community contributions and and all that so the document actually is I think a nice um um way how to transfer this a little bit abstract analysis um we we try to do here into a practical advice for how to run business projects um or how to run open source projects with an impact on business um and yeah these two slides here just summarize that I won't go into detail here um you can read that up or we can just discuss it in detail if you have specific questions good um that's kind of the content we already have um so you can read that up um I did U one more slide here about a number of questions actually we also discussed and that's where maybe some interaction between chaos and the working group um would be interesting. Um we are having um we had several discussions about that but no clear conclusions yet. um how how we can quantify um some of the things we are talking about how how we quantify the business impact of these um yeah business drivers how can we make advice there how how to use them and and also track them and how to convert um inside there into action um what we do have is I mean we have these uh quite well-known studies the Linux Foundation has done a lot of them others have also done them um with this more global view how valuable is the open source ecosystem as this famous 8.8 8 trillion number um which which is cited a lot um um that's kind of from the consumption point of view of open source. We also just recently the Linux Foundation released the study about ROI of contributions. Um there are a couple of others. I think that's also something from a general point of view I think it's understood um um but these numbers are not not really helpful to drive uh action in specific projects. So that's where we are asking ourselves the question what what are the dimensions we can measure maybe what is already there what already is measurable where maybe there are tools methodologies um advice experience practice how how to do that and how could that be integrated or used together with with the framework we discussed and defined here and uh three things I have in mind where I don't have an easy answer is um measuring adoption. Um that's kind of the classical problem for open source project if you just give your software away without any control. Um you won't have license keys to count or something like that. So how we can how can we actually measure that? How how can we work with that? Uh it's such an important factor in in the business models I think but it's really hard to quantify uh in a reliable way. Um and then we have In theory, of course, there's a very exact number of adoption because you could count computers where the software is installed if you would know them. Um, but then there are also these areas where it's much harder to come up with numbers because it's not as easily uh countable. Um, like what is trust? Um, what is public benefit? Um, you can try to convert that into numbers, but uh public benefit could be measured in cost savings or something, but that that's not the full picture. Um and similar um how do we account for strategic value of not open source is uh part of a strategic decision um which is important but is not yeah directly measurable but of course it has an impact and some of these business drivers uh very directly touch the strategic level. So would be interesting to to see how we how we can come up with more tangible numbers how how to quantify things here and I'm sure I have forgotten a lot of other things we we could discuss um and we we need to discuss. So um that's it. Um yeah just my email address here. Um, that's what I wanted to show you and I'm looking forward to our discussion now. >> Yeah, that's great. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for coming. I've been really interested and in what you all are working on. Um, sadly your meetings are on Friday, which is my day off and so I don't I don't come to the meetings. Um, but but yeah, I've been really interested uh to hear what you've what you've all been working on. So I'm curious what what other people think. Can you go back to the slide with the questions about metrics because that might be that might be interesting if you have other questions for for Canas that that's cool too. Um but yeah, so do you have any questions about the presentation? Do you have any thoughts specifically on the on the metrics? I'd be curious to hear from from some of the other opos. I I would be particularly interested in this adoption question. Does does any of you have found a way how to get reliable adoption numbers for open source projects? >> I wish that's the the million-dollar question and open source, right? like we have we have things we can use as as indicators. You know, you can look at um so I'm not a fan of like GitHub stars and forks, but you can look at the trajectory to get a sense for whether or not interest in a project is increasing or decreasing. That still doesn't tell you adoption. Um, you know what a lot of the CNCF projects have started doing is putting an adopters file, like an adopters.mmd file that people can add themselves to, but that requires somebody actually going to the project, adding themselves to the adopters file, and then there are loads of companies like uh when I worked at Intel, for example, we we um didn't tell people when we adopted a project. That was a deliberate decision that was considered confidential. And a lot of companies have a similar similar take on that. So yeah, adoption adoption is hard. Uh Victor, sorry you've got your hand up. >> Yeah. Oh, first of all, that's a fabulous uh presentation. Thank you, Kas. Um so one thing that's been discussed in the business value working group um is measuring the business value and this article was shared before. Um so so I think there's a opportunity to create matrix to measure uh both the business value as well as the b the risk uh because um actually actually because I participated in a community called spdx uh uh so where we uh there's right now we're defining the ontology to measure uh risk um however if you talk to the executives like about Ospo for example what is a why do we have Ospo why is open source important right how do you quantify that other than just say we're good open source is great I mean this is everybody's doing it how do you quantify it with a number that's the question so same thing is happening here so what what we find when discussing in that in SP community is um when you quantify it there there are ways to quantify it both financially also about like process etc and The reason is when it comes to risk there are two type of risk uh at least for security uh side mostly we we talk about the bad risk which is the threat basically security threats but what's not discussed is the good risk the opportunity right for example if you have ai how do you uh do you need to take on aent or or not if you talk to security engineer the the answer is definitely no because this is not ready there's so many things that's just too risky right however if you don't do it, but it's a it's a great opportunity to create something new that's kind of be kind of a in the future strategic for the company, right? So, you have to take on that because it's good risk. Uh same thing for business value. Um when we're uh I know there's previously there's already a a risk profile that could be probably kind of revived could be combined to create a kind of a risk/ business opportunity uh value uh matrix. This way we can um the the article in in this Harvard white paper it go into a lot of the interesting uh stat statistics right but the question is open source community so far has not given them the the data yet how do they know what matrix needed right so I think the the the first step is collaboration between business value working group and and this and cloud working group and create those matrix both the business value matrix as well as the risk matrix covering both good and bad risk and once we have that we can reach out to something um like like this Harvard guys and tell okay we have this so is this something you need because there's all the companies have uh u organizations such as GRC for risk management you know has strategic initiative open source etc right how do they um come together to make a quantify right adjustment uh decision on what what to do with open source or not. Right? So by doing this we have some solid quantifiable risk and business value factors so that the the sea level people actually can make decision based on that. That's I think that's where the value will be for this collaboration. Yeah, I think that's really interesting and in particular I think the um you know the risk angle is something that that we need to be thinking about and we do have we do have kind of a starting point for that with some of the metrics models that that Gary developed that we later turned into a practitioner guide which is about assessing viability. So, um, that's kind of how we look at some of the some of the business risks of of adopting open source software, which, um, you know, was one one piece that Victor mentioned that I think is maybe a maybe a starting point for some of the metrics that might be might be interesting. And Remy, you dropped a couple of comments in the chat. I don't know if you want to talk about any of those or >> Yeah, sure. No problem. So um there are in our opo in the public sector you know uh and of and also within sort of the the digital service approach to providing uh modernization within the public sector we talk a lot about burden reduction. So anytime that at scale especially if you have a very large operation like a government is a very large organization with thousands or millions of people that work within it. If even if you can reduce time by you know to do a task by a few minutes or hours you can really see just an enormous amount of burden reduction. You can quantify it very in a very straightforward way. So uh if you look at some of the links that we posted um there's our share it act savings uh estimation repository that we shared where we just show like hey here's this manual process of adding repository metadata for your open source projects and if we could automate that if we estimate on the low end it takes an hour to fill that out manually if we can provide a tool that's hosted that's free that doesn't cost any money you know we can reduce that by 80% to maybe 15 minutes. And then if there's 10,000 repositories at an 80% reduction, that looks like 10,000 hours of time that we're saving annually, which, you know, at this amount of salary rate or contractor rate for people to fill out this metadata, that looks like x number of thousands or millions of dollars each year at just our agency, right? So those kinds of value propositions really resonate uh particularly within the public sector where there's a big focus on doing more with less and you know um using efficient re efficiently using taxpayer dollars and resources within the government. Um that's a big key focus of the administration not just the you know historically speaking as well. So um that's one of the ways that that we can sort of demonstrate value um just on like the directly on what the OSPO does. And then for a more like okay well what have you done with open source besides the OSO itself um I posted another link in channel that was um for hospital price transparency tool. So basically uh hospitals because of a piece of legislation hospitals have to provide a itemized list of all of their services and how much they cost as a JSON file and there was no standard in the legislation for how to do that. So our team worked to say hey here's a standard for doing it. here's a tool where you can validate your JSON and then from that we were able to say there are X,000 number of hospitals that have to host this file if it takes this long to compute it or this long to audit it uh how much burden can we reduce and you know there's a screenshot of the slide that we presented at the GW OCON uh presentation uh last year um to talk about sort of those burden reductions uh there's also other metrics like Victor was talking about where we talk significantly about security and continuity risks and those are relatively straightforward to quantify as well. Um there was a high-profile uh hack last year for change healthcare that cost $2.8 billion and basically brought the entire health insurance industry to a halt for a few weeks or months. So, uh, when we say, "Hey, here are these active security vulnerabilities and through a bug bounty program for rewarding between $500 and $5,000 per vulnerability, IBM says that, you know, it costs on average $10 million per exploited vulnerability uh, times the number of reported bugs that we found. You know, we could spend $100,000 to save a couple hundred million, right?" um those kinds of tradeoffs are, you know, we're able to point to and say like this is based on academic research or this is based on actual measurement of how long things take to do. And those have been very effective at at demonstrating value proposition in the public sector and I think also would translate pretty easily in the private sector because these are the same approaches that you would use as a bug bounty program in a in a private organization or a burden reduction for a customer experience or a user experience research studies. >> I think the burden reduction is an interesting perspective. um what because that that's a way how how to uh quantify things which don't have a price necessarily um and that's that's something I see um sometimes um when we are trying to bring open source in business processes that having a license uh price of zero kind of breaks the system. So if for example purchasing departments are incentivized by negotiating the price and bringing it down, I mean if you start with zero, there's nothing you can drive down. So your incentive goes out of the window and and you switch to other things. So um that's I think interesting. Yeah. >> Yeah. Awesome. Thank you. This was a this is a really interesting interesting discussion. So, thank you so much for for joining us. I will uh I will ask if you could add a link to your slides from the notes that would be that would be fantastic. Uh if you could do that, >> I would. >> Yeah. Thank you. And with that, we have just one more thing on the agenda. I don't know, Natalyia, do you want to share your screen to do this? Do you want me to? >> Yes. Uh give me a second. >> Yeah, perfect. >> Okay. And then let me bring up another. Okay, cool. Um, hi everyone. I'm Natalia. Last week I uh did a little presentation and demo to the working group where we talked about archiving repositories and I just wanted to share um a a very exciting and recent update from yesterday. Um but the tool that we demoed from last week repo sunsetter um we recently uh shipped a version one um of the tool and it has been published to GitHub action marketplace. Um so I'm going to drop the link in chat. Um yeah so feel free to take a look. We'd love to hear feedback and see if um it would be helpful for your organization um in terms of archiving and sunsetting your repositories. And then alongside that based on our work um we added some more content to the chaos practitioner guide on suns setting repos where we elaborated more on um preparing repositories for archival. A lot of the content is based on the work that repos sunsetter does. So for instance, we talk about updating documentation, doing a security review, reviewing issues, change requests, the repository metadata, and doing some housekeeping before um to prepare the repository for review before archival. Um yes, so feel free to take a look at the updated practitioner sunset guide as well. Okay, cool. And that is all I had to share. Thanks everyone. >> Yeah, perfect. Thank you so much. I'm going to go ahead and just share my screen briefly again and we can just talk about um upcoming meetings so we have a few things on the future agenda items section. Um Travis, since you're on the call, I'm going to uh I guess kind of put you on the spot. Are you interested in presenting in the next meeting which is on the 19th? >> The 19th. Um, let me just think really quickly about what I'm going to be doing that day. I Yeah, actually I to be honest with you, um, I'm hosting a friend who's visiting from the United States. Uh, so that's going to be kind of a that's not going to be the best day for me. So, um, the week after we're the actually, let me make sure. Sorry. >> So, it would be the the next one would be April 2nd because we do every other week. So, it' be April 2nd, which would be the day before the Easter holiday, which >> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. April 2nd is good. I don't have anything planned yet. No visitors from out of town. So, yeah, I think why don't go ahead and put me down. And the cool thing is I should hopefully have uh progressed more in my little side quest at work to do all this stuff. So, excited to share all that with you all. So, >> awesome. Yeah, thank you. I think that's going to be really interesting, really interesting discussion. Um maybe we'll reach out to Emma and see if she's available for uh for the next meeting. Um any other future agenda items? So there other things that we want to talk about in this in this meeting that we should add to the future agenda items section. This makes it easier for uh for us co-chairs to try and decide what to put on the agenda for for the next meeting if we get some suggestions from people. So if you have any suggestions now uh that's that's totally cool. Um you can also drop suggestions in the um Slack channel. Victor, go ahead. >> Yeah. Uh just a mode of collaboration. I know this is not something that we can expect to do uh in a in a few weeks even, right? It's going to be a longterm thing. But uh so between the meetings uh obviously offline uh on the slide probably will be the best way to uh uh continue the the discussion. Uh so will we and in the in the business value meeting we do have a bi-weekly meeting there as well. So what what do you think is the from from perspective of people in this group? What is the best way to collaborate on this topic? Do other people have have thoughts on this possibility is the the Harvard paper uh authors uh people like because and so when we're talking about both risk and business value it's usually part of corporate governance including GRC you know definitely else somebody with is for example measuring the effectiveness and uh of hospital that must be some some somebody in the company must be calculating that. So maybe uh like like in the HBA uh Harvard case any authors that have publication regarding this I think we can invite to either one either hero in the um uh in the in the business value meeting whichever proper uh to uh discuss about both business value and risk how what's how do they quantif because they they have the formula right we have we provide them with the matrix but what kind of matrix they're missing I think that's the proper question to instead of we create something and they say, "Okay, no, this is not what I need. Maybe we should reach out to say, what do you think is missing? What kind of a is a kind of a question mark for you when you're doing this um calculation? You're you're probably assuming something that you don't know. Maybe we can actually give you that clear matrix that you need to make those calculations." >> Yeah, that's a really good point. I mean, I think that some of that collaboration can happen in the Slack channel. So we have um so the the main Slack channel for for this working group is the one in the chaos slack. So it's the WG OSPO um Slack channel. So I think that would probably be I would say maybe the best place to start some of those discussions and then I do like you said want really want to continue this collaboration between the two working groups. So I think certainly when um you know when when you all have something something new something you're working on some maybe some questions um about metrics I would say that we can you know continue to bring these onto the onto the agenda as well. So I would say you know don't don't hesitate to ask to to put stuff on the agenda. Um and that goes for everybody. So just a reminder like the chairs try to make sure that we have an agenda but anyone can add anything to the agenda. um and we'll cover as much as we possibly can in the in the time we have. So, so don't hesitate to just throw things on the agenda if there's something that you want to want to discuss. So, I I would really love to keep that collaboration open >> for that. I don't want to uh speak on behalf of he done a great wonderful job covering much more than than uh before a lot of improvement. Um so so Augustine in the also in that group has has some uh additional business value idea. So maybe coordinator maybe we can bring some initial matrix based on your slide etc. um you know that's business value and and maybe maybe risk as well so that we can have the initial list in a you know like a Google doc and then we can share with with a matrix kmatrix community and then and you can take a review and then once we have a initial list of uh both business value risk um of open source uh ready then maybe we can reach out to for example the Harvard paper authors for example to come and and take a look and present their idea and see, you know, is this are we on the right track. >> Yeah, I think that's I think that would be great. So, so let me know when you all are ready to do that. So, we are we're basically out of time. Um, I saw a note in the Slack channel to maybe add recaps for conferences. So, Scale and Foss backstage uh will have happened by the time we meet again. So, maybe we'll do some some recaps for those. Uh just a couple of reminders. Uh Open Chain and Friends is at the end of March in Stoutgart. Um if you're interested in attending that one, uh ASF's Community Over Code is in October in Glasgow and the CFP deadline is March 20th. So if you want to give a talk there, now's now's the time. Same thing with All Things Open, it's in October again, but in Raleigh and the CFP deadline is the end of March. So if you're interested in submitting some some talks, uh those are good opportunities. There is also an OSPO virtual conference on April 9th that's put being put together by um by Rachel at Punch Tape and so that looks like it's also going to be really interesting event. Sadly I'll be off in April so I won't be there for that one but I think that's going to be I think that's going to be really interesting. Um so with that we are we are totally out of time. So thank you all for coming. This is a really interesting uh really interesting session and so yeah so thanks everybody and have a good day slashe evening depending on where you are. >> Thank you. Bye bye. >> Thank you. >> Bye everybody. >> Thank you. Bye bye. >> Thank you. Have a great vacation, Don. >> Yeah. Thank you so much., CHAOSS OSPO WG, Feb 5, 2026, YouTube, 01kp8gnthrqj7hkaf3zjf2v82b.