Can WordPress Survive the AI Era?  Heat. Heat. N. Heat. Heat. you too. Hello and welcome everybody to the stream. Uh let me know if you can hear me. Today we have a very spicy topic as you can already see here at the top. Can WordPress survive the AI era? Because we've all seen what's happening. There is so much changing in our industry and for this topic I have a very very special guest. His name is Jamie Marsand and he uh works for automatic the uh mother company of WordPress.com. So he is close to the fire. He knows what's happening and what is being developed. He is testing a lot on his channel. He's also a YouTuber. So, I'm incredibly excited to uh have him here on the show. So, let me switch to the scene. And there he is. Welcome, Jimmy. >> Hi, Reena. How are you? >> Good. Good. I'm excited for this one because I have been a fan of what you've been posting mainly on Twitter. I don't always have time to to check all of the um uh YouTube videos, but I do I do actually check your channel quite a lot um compared to others because you talk about new stuff and you have a vision about the future which I really admire. You post all kinds of interesting things on your on your Twitter on your ex. I I still find it weird to say that because it sounds like your ex-girlfriend, but you whatever. uh please tell us a little bit about yourself, about your background, about your relationship with WordPress and uh and then we can dive into the main topic. >> Um I'll be brief. So I currently work for Automatic. Well, I do work for Automatic, which is an amazing place to work with some amazing people with a parent company of WordPress.com and also Woo Commerce and a whole bunch of other brands. Um and I'm currently working in uh head of YouTube for them. So around content creation in all sorts of really interesting areas actually. So uh we're doing some you know video in terms of YouTube stuff but we're also doing some really interesting stuff about um which you and I have never spoken about but uh video AI generation which is like a really fascinating topic in itself. So we're starting to experimenting in that area as well. My background is publishing. I've been in publishing all my life on both sides. So creating publishing systems for uh folks a long long time ago. This is a long time ago where we dealt with things like HTML and you had databases and you had to push that information to paper, internet, CDROM and then internet. Um, but I've also run businesses, publishing businesses as well. Uh, and those have been like with paper. So they've they've had like magazines and stuff like that. >> Um, and then I've worked for marketing businesses creating systems for publishing businesses. Uh and then for the last sort of 15 years I started my own business called Poodle Press where we started off as a WordPress training business which essentially was me um traveling around the country training people face to face like in rooms 20 people at a time um and I've trained about 5,000 people face to face on WordPress. So I've got >> a lot of experience of in classrooms seeing people h how they actually use WordPress. uh a lot of those people were beginners but also trained agencies and also did I did a series with the Guardian newspaper Guardian master classes and then went into big brands and trained them. So training training forms a big part of my DNA and my love of WordPress and seeing how it transforms and has transformed people's lives there is you know it's literally you train them in WordPress and they can literally go off and run their businesses and make money and start their new thing and all that kind of good stuff. So, and and I think the the kind of the DNA of that is it lives within me in terms of that beginner WordPress experience. And it forms a lot of my opinions of where I think this stuff is all heading. And I think I naturally know because I've seen 5,000 people face to face using these tools, >> what people want in in a tool like WordPress and what they want to achieve. So, that feedback loop has been incredibly valuable in forming a lot of the opinions. During that process, I'll get to the point quickly. During that process, we also built some plugins. So, the business grew and we built some plugins mostly around Woo Commerce and Gutenberg. So, I've also run a plug-in business as well. Um, so I've kind of got a broad I've got a lot of broad experience of um WordPress is a multifaceted thing like there's so many different people are using it for so many different things. It's very easy to get pigeonhold and think this is WordPress. I have a fairly good view on what people are using, but still my view is still a bit myopic in terms of goodness me the amount of pe the amount of use cases that people are using WordPress for. It's very easy to be reductive and thinking this is what WordPress needs to be. So I I have a good broad vision of what WordPress how WordPress is being used. I think um that's a that's a a long rambly saying my experience, but I'm passionate about publishing and I'm I'm even more passionate about feeling like we're incredibly lucky to be at this moment in this time. >> I think these next past year and the next four years are going to be in incredibly foundational in terms of the next hundred years probably. We're at this moment like there was a 30 period 30-year period in the in the industrial revolution where change happened that then impacted the next 200 years. I think we're at that point for the next five years that the next five years is going to start to shape probably the next hundred years in terms of what a great time to be in publishing. You know what a fortunate time to be in publishing. It's a it's incredibly scary and disruptive but it is also we'll look back and think this was the moment you were there. You were you guys were working on tools that were shaping 43% of the web. >> Yeah. >> And you were there, you know, at that time seeing it all happen. It's like being it's like being being at the first ever Beatles concert or, you know, seeing Oasis when they just about to break through, you know. What what a time to be what a time to be alive, right? That's enough. That's what I'm gonna say. Yeah. It's a very exciting It's a very exciting time to be in publishing. >> I I love your your mindset about it. I think there's a lot of fear. Uh for me personally, I think it's it's like a mix of fear and excitement. Like some days I wake up and I'm like, "Oh what's what's happening?" And then the next day I'm like, "Yeah, let's go." >> Yeah, I'm I'm the same. I have I have um I have three daughters and I I wake I do have 3:00 a.m. moments where I wake up >> and I'm I'm worrying about what they're and they're all kind of university age. I'm like, "What are they going to be doing in five years time? what's the you know for information economy workers what are they going to be do so I'm the same I do have >> I'm very optimistic about this stuff and I'm very excited about it and I'm >> on it all the time like thinking about it or playing with it or developing on it but I still >> I still part of my brain is this is existentially very bad and it's we're probably going to we could end up in a really really bad place. >> Yeah. Oh, wait, wait. Where's Jamie? Wait. Are you guys also not seeing him anymore? Wait, wait, wait, wait. What's going on? Jamie, where are you? Uh oh. We're having a little bit of a technical difficulty. I am very sorry, guys. I'm sorry. We have to I will text him. Uh let's see what's happening there. Uh yes, he's gone. Okay. Okay. So, it's not just me. Okay. Well, in the meantime, let me know where you're watching from. Uh I see a lot of people in the chat. It's very nice. But unfortunately, Jamie uh uh Oh, ecam crashed. Okay. All right. So, something crashed. The link is on uh WhatsApp, Jamie. So, please jump back in because I was hanging on your lips and I think everybody was. Yes. Bad place came earlier. Sockets time out. Used up tokens. What? What do you mean tokens? You mean AI tokens? Okay, we're having people watching from Netherlands, France, and we have uh Denmark, and what else do we have over here? We have people from uh Germany. We have uh Paul from the USA. We have Lana from Ukraine. I think she's still in the Ukraine because she's from Kroger Block. And we have Jeremy from the UK. Um, Jamie, you have to pay. Yeah, you have to pay. You have to pay for the for the for the AI credits. Wait, he's sending me a WhatsApp. Unable to start a call. Socket close. Time out. What is this, Jamie? This is so weird, Jamie. This is uh what? This is bad. Okay, let's chat with chat GPT. Let's chat with chat GPT. Oh, wait. No, let's do clot. Does my clot start up? I think it will. Okay. Um. Oh, there he is. There he is. Okay. Okay. I was just about to ask Claude. There he is. What happened? What? What did you send to me? What is that? S socket close timeout. >> I had to delivery. No, there was some technical problem with ecam, I think. Let's hope it doesn't >> Let's hope it doesn't happen again. I've never seen that before. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Anyway, where where were you were in the middle of uh something, but now I I got a bit lost. >> Uh I was I was rambling about um this moment of AI excitement that we're in. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I was saying like I I love your mindset about it. I think some some days are fear, some days are are exciting. Uh of course we should look at the exciting part of life. If we start to look at the negative sides, then nothing great will come from that. But we have to face the reality uh that we're in a very disruptive time and disruption means that we have to let go of certain things. Um, and for me to to slowly get into the to the topic, um, for me, one of these moments was when when I started to see, and this is only like one or two weeks old, when when, uh, we're starting to see that the AI experience we have seen in external tools. External tools. Yeah, external tools. That was my camera. External tools like lovable and bold. Um, >> yeah. that kind of vibe coding just prompt and things get generated. We're now starting to see this kind of stuff pop off inside of the builders we already use. And you are a big fan of Gutenberg. I'm more like an Elementor guy, but I also have a lot of friends who work with in in bricks. I have friends who work in DV u but we're starting to see demos now where >> where we can generate a website inside of the builder and then it's using the proper block structure or widget structure and when I saw that and I have a demo which I want to show because you have actually been sharing some very interesting stuff on Twitter uh or acts let me change in my browser can we all see Yes. Let me see if they can still hear you. Can you say something? >> Oh, yeah. I'm here. >> Okay. Okay. So, um Jamie shares uh very interesting stuff on his on his uh Twitter. You can see that he made this website. I mean, this looks amazing and it's cloud code connected inside of WordPress using the new WordPress.com connector. I'm not sure how this works. Is this is this generating Gutenberg blocks or is it just straight code? >> Uh that example I think is straight code actually but the but it it can I I produced one another tweet which is pretty identical that which is Gutenberg. Now WordPress.com was just released. We haven't really talked about it yet. We're about to talk about an MCP connector. So you can actually talk via clause to a wordpress.com site >> which is really the really cool bit about it though the bit where I had a a sort of eureka moment as in this is really really cool is the way we've written the MCP in WordPress.com it's not just talking to WordPress which is nice in itself but the MCP the connection will understand the the entirety of your website so and it understands the entire stack of your website or will do >> and so what that means is when when you talk to it you don't have to tell it what fonts and what what colors and what CSS your site is is using. It knows that intuitively >> which is like that's really cool because then you can say right build me a landing page. >> Yeah. >> And it needs to have this kind of content. It'll go off and do it but it'll actually understand your your design aesthetic. And I did a few other tests with it like I said which is quite cool. So you can start to do new stuff with it like you can say from this website create me a brand guideline document that I can send to an agency. and it just did it, you know, like >> yeah, >> few seconds later, beautiful brand document or analyze this against my competitors for SEO and it comes back with an SEO plan. So, for the first time, like a lot of the tools I've been playing with with AI and WordPress, they've been little tools built within WordPress. >> Yeah. >> Like create some content, add an alt um tag to my images, >> you know, blahy blah blah. for the first time with these tools. It it understands your entire stack, which is a which is a huge thing. Like when I'm talking to Lovable, it it naturally it naturally understands my entire stack because that's what the stack is built on. It just knows everything about what I'm what I'm trying to do. For the first time, I had that moment last week with WordPress.com MCP. It's like, oh, it really does understand my entire website. And that's that's a huge shift over and above just building little tools within little plugins within the WordPress stack once it once AI can understand the entire website. >> Yeah, >> it can kind of it it it becomes a proper design partner for you. So it was a good moment. >> Yeah. Well, I I I also had this moment last week. I did create this simple demo um and it's not perfect but this was completely generated with with cloud and and this is not yet what you're describing but it I just literally started in the desktop application of cloud code. I connected to WordPress studio MCP and it's a boring layout. I mean it's three everything is three three columns but and and the fonts are messed up here. It's not even it's not even using the right colors etc. But like the fact that it could do that was really impressive because I I also had a moment this week with with cloud code where I could wait let me switch back to the to the this one. Um, I had a moment where I connected Cloud Code via the MCP to my accounting software and then I wrote a specific skill on how for the software subscriptions that I have in my business and how how I need to fail that to the government in the Netherlands, right? And so instead of just asking CHPD like, hey, how should I fail this? No, this is specifically made for me. This is literally how I trained a person in my company four years ago. Uh uh like this company you should file that as as this. >> And so I saw like just claude is amazing. MCPs are amazing because your agent can do stuff on its own in these other tools. But then combining that with skills, that's where you can then set up the instructions and and we can what what's probably is going to happen that WordPress itself will roll out a skill or a plug-in. I'm not exactly sure that in cloth code what the difference is between a plug-in and a and a skill, but it's a set of instructions. Um, and then if you combine that with your own workflow, uh, so your own classes, like you said, your own color system, whatever. Yeah, that is incredibly powerful. like this is uh it's not as big of a moment as when cloth came out or I mean when chat GPT came out that that was of course the the the big boom in in our industry but I don't know about you but I feel like this moment is also one of these absolutely big mo well not the moment as AI was was invented or generative AI was invented but it's it's it's this moment of like wait I can connect all of my tools and I can build it exactly for my workflow and that also means that I can make it exactly for the clients my client's workflow. I just need to figure out what they're what what they're doing, right? And then we can build all kinds of systems. So, >> yeah. Do you also see it this way that this is one of these big big moments? >> Yeah, I think I think um and by the way, there's a massive opportunity for agencies to go into customers like you've just described and automate their businesses and >> bring AI into the business. That's just such a huge opportunity if you're if you're if you're sitting there worrying about the fact that you might lose some of this front end design CSS stuff. There's even more opportunity to go into customers and say you could improve this um by automating all this stuff through AI and bring all these tools. I mean huge huge opportunities there. Um but yeah, I I I sense the same thing like can I show you can I share my screen on a few things that have happened recently that maybe people haven't seen. Is that possible? >> Of course. That would be that would be super cool. Let me switch to this one. Let me just quickly check the comments. In the meantime, somebody said, "My connection is not good." Oh, VTO. Veto is here from uh >> um Atarim. Is it still bad, FTO? Um nice alignment on the I know my website is bad. It was just generated with cloud. Okay. Don't don't criticize my design, guys. We're we're So, we're talking about WordPress replacement plus AI plus WordPress combo. So, where was Yeah, I'm gonna ask this question. We're gonna get to this question, okay? But we're first needing to talk a little bit about um AI generation inside of WordPress because that's also here and that's that's what Jamie is showing now. And then of course we're also going to ask critical questions like where does WordPress have a place uh in a world where everything can be generated and databases can connected. But let's first show or let's first look at some examples that are AI in WordPress because we're not just magically going to switch tomorrow to our all all our website. We're not going to switch that to AI coding Vive coding tools. That's not going to happen. Right? So, uh, yeah, let's, uh, let's get into this. >> So, I'm going to show you a few sites. These have all been vioded. These are all Gutenberg block theme sites that now in TX, which is automatic's kind of experimental block generation tool, which previously you could create like block plugins. Now, you can create block themes in it, which we haven't talked about, but we're about to. And I'm going to show you some early stuff. So, these these is I was prepping a demo and I built these sites. So, this is one here. This is just vibe coded. But my point of showing you this stuff is we're getting to the point now where lovable was last year in terms of the front-end design stuff. We can achieve some really cool I'm going to show you a few other ones. We can achieve some really cool um front end designs. Let me show you. I've got a couple more here to show you. >> This is already quite cool. It's like it feels humanmade. It feels custom, not like the the boring blocky. >> No, exactly. I got to stop sharing that and share this one. This is another one. Let me hold on. >> This one here. >> Okay. >> Yeah, I'll replay it. Hold on. Let's go back one second. Here we go. Can you see that? >> Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah, >> it's cool, right? >> Yeah, that's cool. >> This is all built with TX. So people can if anyone's watching, you can go to TX now and vibe code a block theme. >> Wait, people that don't know. >> Yeah, sorry. Go on. >> Yeah, for the people that don't know, you're saying you can just go to TX. But the the the from what I know what TX is is is a is a widget generator or as it's called in Gutenberg, a block gener generator. You can create custom block. But you're saying you can create a whole website. Now >> you can create well a block theme. This is I mean this is essentially a website but it's a blog theme that you can then download and use on a customer site. This is ready today. Um at the moment it just creates like the index template. So it doesn't create your other templates but you can reprompt it to create all those templates. It's really cool. Um I'm going to show you another one. I've got one more to show you. I think >> this is really cool. >> Um so let's just drag this one in. Maybe I don't. Hold on. Oh, I don't have the other one here. I don't think. Do I? Oh, maybe. Oh, yeah. I do have one more. Yeah. Okay. This one here. Let me just Oh, no. Uh, I may have shown you this. Let me share it anyway because I may not have done This shows you, let me rewind this. This shows you the process currently in TX when you're actually so TX gives you like four choices. You you vi you basically vibe code and then it will give you four choices and then you choose the design you like. >> Oh wow. >> Cool. Right. And then and then you can go off and further prompt. >> Wait, so TX is like a vibe coding tool. It's not just a widget generator. Exact. Yes, exactly. You got it. Yeah. >> Oh, I didn't know that. Oh, that's So, >> we haven't we haven't really publicized this yet. Um, but the functionality is there and you can go and play with it and start experimenting with it. But it's really cool. It's very powerful. Um, >> but this is really new stuff, right? >> Really new. Yeah. You're the first person to see this, Reena. >> Well, oh, uh, well, okay. Uh, that's really cool. Thank you. Thank you for giving this demo. It's the first time on YouTube. My Yeah, cool. My point is for the first time this feels I mean tell me what you think after you played with it. This feels like a experience to me in terms of the kind of designs that we're starting to be able to create um with core WordPress blocks because the models have got so good. >> Yeah. >> That they start to understand block markup. Now there's another question about block markup and the future of editing. And a lot of this is a lot of this stuff is uh for discussion but these experiments are happening and we're in a different place to where we were three months ago in terms of the technology. December was a big shift, right? I don't know if you felt it. December felt like a a big shift in terms of what these what the capability of of all these models was. And it's um it's kind of incredible where we're at. >> Yeah. I I mean I took I took time off of work in in December and when I yeah when I came back it felt like wait this is this is a different world. It was not just a different year. >> Yeah. Yeah. I had I had a week and I had I had a week off. I went to the moldies for for a week and I came back and it was everyone was talking about um >> 4.5 I missed Remotion and I missed um >> I think yeah so I missed like the two biggest things that happen but that's like every week at the moment right we've kind of you take some time away and the world has changed so it's it's hard it's I mean it's one of the issues I've got as a content creator it's impossible to keep up you spend your whole time like if you're going to create some content getting off topic. If you if you're going to try try and create some content, you've got to keep up, understand the thing, understand the thing deeply. >> Yeah. >> To be able to communicate it. So, it's a it's a hard time to be in content. It's a harder time to be in product, but it's a hard time to be in content. >> Yeah. But Yeah. But Okay. But yes. Yes. And yes, but think about the agencies like I I talk to to many of my friends who who have who have agencies and and like I don't have a lot of time for for for client work. I'd love to do more but I because this takes a lot of time to create uh quality content but um I okay yes we're absolutely there and that's why I'm trying to do a lot of live stream because I don't have to plan it. I don't have to edit it. We're just talking and it's live and it's done and it's not it's nice and it's interactive. But like we have the time to to explore this and then record it and publish it. like a lot of agencies they have to focus their time on client work right now and you're you're using the tool you cannot easily switch to another tool and that's why I also think that people who say like oh WordPress is doomed the WordPress is over next year it's like well do you realize that that first of all most websites do not get a refresh every year it's it's more around I think it's more around four years that every website gets a refresh right Now AI is has a lot of risks. Uh it's not super developed yet uh to the point where where where everybody well where where we think it's safe and it's good enough. So I think for the next few years most websites are not going to change just because there's no need to completely rebuild your website with with VIP coding. Um uh but I feel like if you're doing client work right now, you feel like the the earth is moving beneath your feet. Um um and and that's just one thing that I want to say about that and I want your vision on it as well and then we get and then we're going to get into this topic of WordPress and page builders. But um do you also feel like the the well probably the the FOMO of of trying to keep up with all of this Um but but then also that it's better to just focus on the perspective that the world and the humans are going to be here and the technology is is is going um improving. so fast right now and especially when we reach when we reach a GI not sure if that's going to happen but if the AI can start to improve itself then the yeah I feel like the gap between what what is technologically possible and what humans where humans are that gap is is going to grow so this this thing will go up and up and it's like it's impossible to catch and so how do we deal with that I think we should just let it go let it go up and just try to look at what the humans are doing right now and the businesses and try to just move them up a little bit. How do you deal with this anxiety of the the FOMO? >> Um I that's a great question. I think um it depends what situation you're in. If you're if you're sitting there and you're you've got to pay your mortgage and you've got um you know you got children to feed and all that stuff and you're running a business I think there are massive opportunities in the disruption that you know pick a pick a lane and go after it. Like I was saying there's a huge amount of opportunity for business process optimization at the moment. It's just so vast the opportunity that you know how you bring in AI into a business and um that's a huge opportunity. So I'd look for like try not to worry about um the weight of everything like look at certain opportunities. There's massive there's money in the mountains if you just go searching for it. I think at the moment for agencies that have typically done this kind of work that I don't see I don't see people being paid to writing C for writing CSS in three years time. I don't think that's where I don't see the market going there. But I think there's even more opportunity around like I see a lot of I see a lot of WordPress websites that aren't aren't aren't brilliant and could be improved through AI like most of them I see could be improved and that and the processes that fall off those could be improved. So I think there's a massive opportunity to make things a lot better for you know if you're if you're looking to make money out of this stuff there's probably it's going to feel very disruptive but I don't think it's going to be writing CSS. I think it's the value is going to move from the front-end design stuff. And then in terms of my thinking around where I spend my time, I'm trying to think foundationally around the time I spend on this stuff. So take video AI generation for example, which is a huge interest of mine at the moment. I'm I've been doing a lot of kind of foundational work around learning storytelling and learning how films are made and how to write as opposed to spending all my time I'm spending a lot of time actually but spending all my time in the tooling you know step back and say what are actually the foundational skills that regardless of where the technology is in years time are going to be incredibly valuable in years time for me personally or for you personally and for for video generation that's storytelling and it's how to write and how to pace and that's that doesn't matter what tool you're using that stuff is still >> regardless of the tooling learning that stuff now is is probably more important than the tooling because that's going to put in goodstead when video generation finally gets to a point which I'm hugely excited about that I can just talk to it and craft a story. I mean it's it's clunky now but it won't be clunky in a year's time. So that would be my advice. Think of what the foundational stuff is that you'll you know where the value foundationally is for you and put learning into that stuff. >> Okay. So apart I just want to go a little bit on that sidet track that you that you introduced and then I want to go back to WordPress but do you also feel like we are we should not think in terms of web designer web developer anymore but more like systems architects or uh elementor calls calls it web creator which is more like a general term um instead of thinking about writing CSS or making a design more pretty It's it's it's we're going beyond websites. I mean, the the creative skills um can be used in other areas and and that's that's a that's valuable for for companies, right? So, should we think even outside of websites apart from the WordPress conversation? >> Yeah. Well, I I think it depends a bit on what you're comfortable with and what you're what you want to do and >> okay, >> but I I can I can see where the value probably isn't going to be um probably look forward and say where is the value going to be in three years time for me as a business or an individual. And I don't think it's going to be in some of the places where we've historically where kind of the small agency market and WordPress has typically um made their money. I think it's going to be in different places. Now, I think you can probably start to assume where those places are going to be and start to move your business that way. So, I think it it really depends on where each business is at because there's going to be so many niche examples of how how folks are making money out there. But, I think you can see a bit like you can see with like, you know, my worries about my children, where their value is going to be in time, the type of work they're going to be doing. I think you can start to plot where AI is going to be in a year, two years time, three years time. >> Yeah. >> And I don't think you want to be in those places as a business. you want to be in where's the value going to be for that and that might be tying today tying together these tools but it might I think I think as well it's going to be in whole new areas that we haven't even we haven't even we don't even know about yet in terms of you know AI video generation is going to be honestly it's going to be the most massive I mean it's big now but it's going to be the most massive have the most massive impact on the world in my view okay and it's going to impact us culturally and in all sorts of places so you know where's that going to be in years time what does that mean for opportunities. Do I want to start an AI video um production company? >> Okay. Okay. I don't know about I I have no idea what your what what your ideas with the AI video generation, but I would love to talk about that. But I do want to park that on a on a separate uh call or a a separate uh live stream because I'm very interested in it personally. But I do want to specifically focus a little bit on the part that you said about the numbers. So, can you Oh, can you stop sharing your screen? >> Yeah. Actually, I've got another Can I show you one more chart while we're here? >> Okay. Oh, well, actually, I have the chart that that you that I the chart. >> Have you got that? The one with the growth. >> Yeah. Here. This one. This one. This is what I Okay. Okay. So, this is what I what I wanted to to get to when you said we don't know where this is all going. Of course, that's true. um um nobody has has an has a real idea but but what we do know is numbers right we can track stuff and so this is a very interesting graph that you shared on an article that was called wave 1 went to lovable why wave two might be a different story okay so can you explain while I'm zooming into this what what are we looking at here and why did it make you think >> so this is a chart that shows the growth in coding over the past few years, right? And it shows a huge that we've gone through a huge um peak and what we've got on the left is the number of new websites that are being built gone up massively. I think it's about 35%. Uh then the number of new OS apps and then we've got some GitHub stuff over on the right. There's another bit here of this chart which is missing in my view which is software actually. I think we've seen a massive um and I'm not sure quite how they're classifying. I think we've probably seen a massive wave of new software being built because a lot of these vibe coding apps actually let you build software. But what this says to me is that there has been a huge growth in new websites. But I don't think we've felt that yet in the WordPress space. I might be wrong, but me talking to agencies and folks haven't seen an explosion of growth. I think we've been and if you look at the kind of WordPress interest over time, I think we've se seen a slight plateauing of interest and that's because these vi vi coding tools that we hadn't heard about two years ago. Nobody had heard about lovable I don't think lovable existed two years ago. Lovable and bolt new had nobody had heard of these two years ago but they've come into this market and they've seen enormous growth. Um and actually I do have some numbers on lovable but not here. Um >> it's the fastest growing company in Europe right now. I heard >> I think ever probably software company ever. So it's it's had enormous growth and I think and and and that's because they've they don't have any legacy. It's very simple to build with. They don't have WordPress's abstractions to deal with. But I do my point of the article was showing this graph and say I don't think we've written this first wave. But I do think there is an opportunity for WordPress um to ride the second and third waves which I think often happens with technologies whereas the the newbies come into the market and because they have no legacy it's very easy for them to build out and grow. WordPress is a bit like an oil tanker. It's slower to adapt. But now actually with the models getting so good, it's getting to the point where it can, as you've seen some of the designs I've shown you, it can start to compete in terms of the design. So I think what WordPress's opportunity is is to catch the second and third waves as it evolves and the models get better. And the work that James Leage is doing within uh the core AI team is fabulous as well. So there's some great stuff going on within WordPress. the models are getting incredibly good so they can understand WordPress. So WordPress it it probably feels slow for folks at the moment but it it is quite well positioned in terms of there is 43% of the web um that is using it. So what we might see, here's a prediction. What we might see over the next few years is the number of sites being built with WordPress might grow again, but its market share might dropped, which is quite a because I think >> I think the overall market is growing enormously. And I think people like lovable will continue to grow, >> but I I think there will be >> there's still a massive opportunity in WordPress in that space. Even though we might look at the market share numbers, they might not be at 43%. But the number of the the monetary opportunity for folks building on WordPress might be bigger because the whole market is growing quite you know there's still a a huge market opportunity for new websites as that chart shows us. >> Yeah. So what you're actually describing is a change in accessibility and we're yeah >> we're I'm not talking about web accessibility like making your button link so so uh you can open it in a in a screen reader. Uh, no. I I mean like accessibility as in um making the web accessible because I I'm actually working on a on a on a video um uh like this uh where I'm I'm making a visualization of the three phases of of web development. And the first phase what I see uh what I think is that it was uh completely developer or coding dependence. Uh but then around 2018 19 uh DV was the first one but that was still in the back end with dragging and dropping short code blocks. But then at some point Elementor came and that was the first full front end or it was not the absolute first one but the first one that did it properly and had proper marketing etc. And so yeah, >> this then attracted guys like me because I was in that time I still had a I already wanted to make websites and web web apps as well, but I I I couldn't. So I had to work uh with a developer in order to create WordPress customized WordPress themes, right? That's how things were done. people were downloading something from Team Forest and then and then if you're lucky you could you could finish with with a Team Forest theme but probably not because there's some limitations and it was built uh not perfectly and so you had to customize it uh in order to yeah do anything so Elementor obviously solved that issue uh not completely it's not that themes were completely irrelevant but I think they captured most of the market and I would even argue that some parts of WordPress growth has come from Elementor because WordPress itself didn't provide much more after they introduced a whole plug-in directory. The plug-in directory is incredibly useful because it's it's a whole system of yeah, literally two clicks uh install and activate that's that's and then you get a lot of functionality which is even easier than VIP coding an SEO tool for example. But um um we yeah the market moved to this to this point where um we didn't have to look at the code anymore. We we could make stuff without a traditional developer. But now we're getting to a new phase, right? And this is another foundational step. And it's not just what you what you said. way. I want to go to another of your articles which I found fascinating which you actually posted this morning. I am so lucky that I'm talking to you today. Um yeah, this good such a good moment here. Look this this article uh on your Twitter called are we uh are we in WordPress asking the right questions? And then uh you said you said uh that people just just want a website, right? That's that's you've been teaching all of these people. That's what you said in the beginning of this this this live stream. You've been teaching in real life in front of a a class. And um um but if you want to work with WordPress, which is you know what you have explained for years and what I did on on YouTube, you have to uh learn 74 interfaces or 74 buttons, multiple interfaces. Then you have a theme layer. What what is that in in today's world even from a non-coder perspective, right? Uh you have all of these different um uh plugins. Um, WordPress has made things easier, but they haven't really, in my opinion, and please uh uh push back if you don't agree, but in my opinion, uh, um, Gutenberg and the whole blockbased editing has been a maybe a little bit too late, uh, uh, coming to full development because that whole wave is now, yeah, has been taken by Elementor and now we're going to get to the point of AI and And before you respond, I do want to point out one thing. Um, uh, in other words, they wanted something that just work. For 20 years, we couldn't build that. So, we built editors instead. Yeah. So, editors like Elementor that could interact with the code. And then you said something here. A lot of products in our space, so in the WordPress space are asking, how do we add AI into our existing tools? That was the first AI tools we saw, right? A plugin or generate a blog post, generate alt text, generate an image. Sure, which often results in something like a button. Yeah, AI assistant. But the question might be backwards because a real question might be what do our customers want? Um, from your experience, you say, and this is the key, they don't want AI inside of the editor. They want AI instead of the editor. >> For decades, the natural interface have used complex systems, etc. So you're talking about this concept of abstraction which is what Elementor did to customizing themes and I feel like AI may may do this to um to uh page builders whether that's Gutenberg or uh Element or DV whatever um because it can bypass that. So, how how do you how do you see that? Because you're also optimistic about the future of WordPress. >> Yeah. Well, I I kind of WordPress if you look at its history has gone through many iterations in terms of its editing experience from HTML, Tiny MCE. Um, and then we went Gutenberg and then and now we've kind of got AI. And it's like if you if you if you say what what does somebody actually want to achieve? They want to achieve a web page layout. if they can do that. Why I don't see people and I love Gutenberg obviously I love Gutenberg but I think we're going to look back in five years time and there are obviously use cases where people we're be we're being quite reductive around some of this conversation but there are use cases where people are always going to be using this stuff but I don't see in five years time a typical beginner will will want to add a column layout to a website by adding a columns block first. I just don't see that in in three years time. But that's in my experience of teaching beginners. They don't want to do that. They just want to be able to tell something to do it for them. And that's probably chat. Um and it does it beautifully better than they could have ever imagined. And that's that's based on my experience of teaching 5,000 people in classrooms for the last 10 years. I don't see and I think that's okay. WordPress still that doesn't negate having WordPress. You're still going to need all the cool stuff that WordPress brings with you. We're just talking about the kind of theming layer on top of it and the editing experience, >> the generating the pages, right? We're not talking about the whole ecosystem. >> Yeah, the plug-in the plugins is a huge strength. So, if you want e-commerce, you can plug that in. If you want forms, you can plug that in because that work that intellectual property um that intellectual work rather has been done. All those all those plugins 60,000 plugins. >> Yes. that that gives WordPress a huge leverage if um and the stuff that James Leage and his team are building around the abilities API can tap into lets AI tap into that stuff. So for me I see a future hopefully where the AI is kind of doing the front end experience for people. >> Yeah. >> I suspect in my ideal world the theming layer comes into question what that looks like. I'm a big fan of, you know, kind of the headless experience that people are starting to experiment with. And I see the editing experience, the editing experience was only there as an abstraction to make it easier for people. That's why we built editors. And if AI does that in 10 times as easily and 10 times as well, then you ask the question, do we need an editor? I had this experience when I was using Lovable a year ago. It was a Eureka moment for me. I was testing it and I was building a site and I built this very beautiful website which is actually a headless WordPress website. Um, which is actually Can I show it? Can I show it quickly? Is that possible? >> Of course. Of course. >> Have we got time? Um, >> yeah, we got I don't know if you have time, but I I made a lot of time for this. >> Let me share this. This is This is it. Can you see that? >> Uh, not yet. Wait, let me just click here and then you click here. Yeah. Now I see it. >> Okay. Yeah. So this this I built a year a year ago using Lovable and it was a kind of a Eura moment and it's kind of cool, right? This is so this is headless. This is actually ingesting content from >> it's cool, right? From a WordPress site. Um but this is built using Loveable. So it's like a front-end headless version of WordPress. Um and it's just it's just beautiful. So you've got this little thing here that pushes out >> and then I've got this photo journal. This is pulling um photos automatically from course it's not going to load now um automatically from my WordPress site. There they are. Okay. So that's just automatically coming in. And then I've got writings here which again which are being pulled automatically from my WordPress site. But I and then I've got light and dark mode. And this took me like an hour to build. And it's I think it's absolutely beautiful. And that would have taken you that would have taken a long long time. >> Yeah. And even the design idea of this like when most people think this is also an people that underestimate or overestimate their own skills. But like I I've been a designer for a long time. I have a design degree, had a design agency, I've been teaching design on YouTube for a long time. And I'm not the best designer in the world, but I can see that this experience, what you're showing here, it maybe not the best layout for for all websites. Probably not. But it is creative. It's it is something that is hard to come up with by yourself. And I think we're often over Yeah. How do I say it? over complicating or no over um how do I say this overvaluing the the absolute core of human creativity uh yet there's absolutely still a point to make and and human designers will I think always be better than AI but only very good human designers there are many people who are yeah I'm saying it this a bit bluntly But there there are many people that are okay designers and even myself like I think I understand design quite well but if I see what AI can generate today I'm like well that's getting pretty close to my skills if I'm really honest. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean this was this was but my Eureka moment was with this was one was it didn't take long to build and it was kind of it was a very creative process to to kind of build with it. Um, the second one was I got to a point where I was like, well, I've built this thing. Now I need a way to edit it. And I was starting to talk to the AI saying, I'm going to need an editor. How would And then I suddenly thought, no, I don't I don't need an editor. I just tell the AI what to change. And that was like, oh yeah, this is this is the way people are going to want to do this stuff. They're not going to want to build editors. Now, they will for certain use cases, like if you're in a big company or a news organization, you have complex workflows. You definitely need that. But for a lot of the people I've taught over the last 10 years, they're going to want to talk to it and you know, just like they talk to a designer, say go off and do this thing. It just felt very very natural from that point on. Um, >> so yeah, I think the editing the editing is going to we're going to my view is we're going to have an edit AI first editing experience or we should be aiming for that. That's the target I think. >> And within that within that it's not just going to be like if we do that properly, it's not just going to be a chat b a chat box. is going to be something else. I think we're still at the very early stages of what that experience looks like because for some people being faced with a with a just a chatbot is going to be very intimidating and they're not going to have the ideas. So, we're going to have to there's opportunities for people to guide through that process or >> you know, you might have an interface which is yeah, >> you've got different different agent designers that you want to work with that have different vibes and you choose that one and they lead you down this path. So, I think we're right at the early days of this, but I do think it's going to be an AI first experience. It's just so joyous and collaborative and a creative way to to work. I think >> I completely agree with this and I'm also seeing that edit editing panels are becoming less relevant. Maybe addit later. Lovable has this thing now. They didn't have this before, but you generate the whole thing and then you can still click on a heading for example and then it it gives you some options and it already connected to the variables that it has generated. So this is this is like a smart way to do it. But the the the whole drag starting with drag and drop maybe maybe that's going to change. Maybe there will still be drag and drop but you do it later um if you want to add something. But yeah, then then I think we have to also separate uh clients uh or DIYers from from people like us who have experience and can help clients because this this process of guiding is incredibly important but it's it's even if you have this perfect process what what you're describing that you you're like hey which which agent designer do you want to work with? That's a very cool idea right and like oh I like this style more and this is my and and then the agent's going to ask you about your business problems etc. But this all requires humans to to describe stuff about their own business. And if we know one thing about humans which has nothing to do with technology is is that we find it hard to look at ourselves describe ourselves especially describes our our pain and problems and we cannot always come up with >> Yeah. >> Yeah. with with a way to to to describe it. I mean talking is a communication is a skill as well. Um and and yeah getting that out on in that chatbot or whatever. So I think there there's still huge opportunity there for agency work. I don't see a future where we're not going to we're not going to be able to help clients with it. But I do see that the amount of hours that we can charge for manually building and designing a page, I think that's going to take the biggest hits. >> Yeah. But there's also lots of new opportunities, right? We can create web apps like like this is this is huge, right? You can connect your WordPress forums for example to a custom CRM that you build for your clients. It's like there's so much new opportunity as well. Like do you also see that and how do you see WordPress being connected in that story? because it sounds kind of nice if you can let's say you start in lovable you create your website in lovable and you also generate a web app that's completely connected into the same database. So this is also a a conversation I think or a question that many people have right now and that's what I want your opinion on like where in this world or for what type of websites would make WordPress uh sense if we can also just connect the database easily with a with a tool like lovable. How do you see that? >> Well, I think there I mean the first thing is there's always been like uh competing products to WordPress. That's not new, right? >> Um >> and I think WordPress's challenge is to become as easy to use as um lovable and of course it's open source which is a huge advantage because you can talk to it very very easily and it's free. That's another huge advantage. So you can build stuff, you know, that's that's not to be discounted. It's free and it's open source and you can change it and mold it to your will. So, um, I I'm I'm very, you know, given what's happened over the last 3 months, I'm I'm probably obviously everyone has existential moments around where we're at, but I'm probably the most buoyant I've been around what's possible with WordPress than I've been uh for a long time because the stuff you can create with it is is getting to the point where it's really really awesome comparable to VI coding tools. Um, so I'm not sure I've answered your question at all, Reena. Um, but I think there are I think I just think there's big opportunities for like agencies and freelancers around using WordPress as like the central source of truth for a lot of uh kind of where people live on the web, whatever that's going to look like the next few years. >> Yeah. So, okay. So for how I see it is like be beginner websites like I think there are probably millions of uh WordPress websites which are just brochure websites. They have a simple hosting plan. Maybe an agency build it for them. The these one of these agencies that generate a lot of websites really fast or they did something themselves with a template etc. Um and it's just a simple website. there's maybe a form plugin and and and whatever and these kinds of website if they need to be rebuilt I think that makes more sense if there's no database to just v code it but yeah then again there will be many people who would just who will just for the reason that their form plug-in already has submissions there they would just be like okay if we can also use AI here then why would we turn to another platform like like uh lovable um >> yeah why would why why would you why would you rip out the plumbing of your Sure, if the AI if you can point an AI at your existing WordPress site which is outdated and slow and plugins need updating and you can say go off and improve it and make it 10 times better. Why would you rip all that out for um you know my wife runs a yoga studio which is running a a WordPress site? There's no way we're going to there's no way we're going to do that. That that site has so much it would take so much effort to migrate that site off WordPress. So >> yeah, >> there is 43% of the web running WordPress. Lots of websites could do with updating and lots of those businesses that are running those websites could do with automating or adding value or being better. >> Yeah. >> I you know that's that's that in itself is a is a massive opportunity for agencies to revisit those sites and say look we've got this package. we can improve your site and get you more business and >> and we can build apps on top of it and so >> yeah and I think also with agencies speed uh is not always what you want to achieve like just the let's say that that companies like lovable get to a point where is it is just a lot easier to work with I mean that's probably what's going to happen right because there is also a heaviness that comes with WordPress there's plug-in updates that you have to do there can be uh problems. Uh there's there's bloat. I mean, if you use a a page builder, it's it's more than of course Gutenberg is is optimized very much. But there there is there is a heaviness that comes with WordPress and um at least that's my view. Um and so there we I think we will get to a time where where these other platforms they they will not have that heaviness. Um but then again uh agencies do not always care about speed and super ease of use. they want a proper solution, right? Um, and so because they want to have a good system for for their clients and so I don't I also don't see that agencies are always going to choose the easiest option. Maybe the agencies that just want to move really fast and want to make a lot of websites like those agencies will probably do it, but the bigger agencies they they want to have granular control. And that's why I think page builders, I don't know how you how you see that, but like page builders, they provide that. And so they want to have access. They want to be able to make some changes to the code or or make an custom plugin or Yeah, they they they want that. the value is is not speed and ease of use is not always the option that agencies use, but for millions of websites that are simple, I think that's going to be hard to keep these people on the platform. That's how I see it. >> Yeah, maybe. I think that I do think there's an opportunity like WordPress.com has its own AI builder and drives a lot of traffic to that site >> and WordPress has and it and WordPress has you know it has brand and distribution and a massive ecosystem. So I think if WordPress wants to do it and we execute it properly like there's no reason why the experience of building a site with these models shouldn't be as joyous as using lovable and it's getting to the point >> sorry >> yes so can we c can do you think we can get to the point where you can literally go to the website let's say wordpress.com and you start with a prom box and then the moment you do that it spins up a sandbox and then it just generates the whole thing and from there on you can then decide hey host it there because I that the the threshold right now or the the roadblock is oh you have to pick a hosting company first and then what hosting company and then what hosting package and then you have to install and I think that that all of those steps that is creating a lot of friction for to get started but yeah I think that if you can start with a promp box but I don't know if that's possible within WordPress >> well we have we have it we have it now wordpress.com so you can go you can you can go to wordpress.com today we have an AI builder and you can do exactly that experience. Now, at the moment, it's not as sleek as using level um but a huge amount of work going >> Yeah. >> Oh, so you're saying already here? >> It's already here and you and you can see other hosting companies are approaching this as well. Um, so this stuff this stuff has started to emerge over the last, you know, six months. >> Yeah. >> And my point earlier was we are now getting to the point and you saw in the TX demo, we're getting to the point very soon where the experience should be, my hope is as comparable to these five coding tools in terms of, you know, the WordPress experience. >> Yeah. So, >> it's not loading, but uh >> and then you don't have to wor you don't have to worry about hosting in that whole experience. You don't have to set up servers. You just go through that, build your site and you click launch and it'd be kind of there. >> That would be very good for WordPress.com hosting, you know. >> Yeah. Well, we built we built it and it's kind of, you know, a lot of work's going into it. >> Um, and that's, you know, obviously that that lowers friction enormously and other hosts are doing it. So you can go and check out other hosts have got their own versions of this as well. >> Yeah. >> Um >> so yeah >> but um how do you see the or what do you think makes WordPress strong like what is the what are the most valuable things um apart from the plugins? Well, we have we have 20 years of history. I think I mean we have a huge ecosystem and people around the world and 43 I mean 43% of the web. I think the risk on all these things is we look at them purely from a technology point of view and go well this can do this and this can do this and it's like that's always been the case. There's always been tools that people have gone you know when I first introduced WordPress into my one of the businesses I ran. We were using a CMS called which some of you would have heard of which is a .NET CMS commercial and my developers were all net developers and they hated PHP and they hated WordPress and they they couldn't and they were always saying this this technology is much much better and that argument's always been made that the technology WordPress doesn't you know the stack doesn't compete and people always complain about the stack. What WordPress has really, you know, grown from is the ecosystem of people building with open source. That's kind of and that's that hasn't changed. In my view, that is like the potential of that is even stronger with AI because it's kind of democratized that people are going to be able to mold this tool now without having to go through complex learning. They can actually just talk to AI and the AI will start to build them these sites. So for me that's kind of like that's why it probably you know you can't you can't do some of the stuff we're demoing today with Wix in terms of you know because it's not open source and it's it's a closed platform. >> Um so and you can't you know I can't control what will do at the end of the day. I might go up tomorrow and they've changed their model and I'm completely stuffed. >> So there's some there's some business risk around using these tools as well. So I think WordPress is is has historically been behind, but I think that's that's natural for a piece of software that's been 20 years, but there's a there's a kind of consolidation of models, improving AI, the stuff James Lee and his team are doing, they're kind of coalesing into this moment where we're getting to the point where it's like getting, you know, incredibly exciting to start building with WordPress again. like the stuff we've been sharing on Twitter. Yeah. >> And stuff privately, it's like, wow, that's that's incredible. So, >> yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I I um I I agree. I'm just I'm just I'm just challenging the idea a little bit. That's of course my role here in this in this um live stream. I am uh I also uh see the well there's of course this is the the these are the questions I think we should ask right now. And I think it also makes us sharp, right? In the same way as as what you said on Twitter, are we asking the right questions? Because WordPress should take this very seriously. But listening to you, it sounds like they really are. They're not just defending the past. They're saying like, hey, we completely believe in AI. We're not just saying like, oh, we're sticking to the old. No, we're going all in on it because we we understand. And I think the power of WordPress is that the vision has always been very strong which is which is well first it was democratizing publishing and now they've expanded it to democratizing publishing or the web. I don't know exactly what the quote is right now but I think that's that's what it is right democratizing the web creation. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think >> the other the other thing to see say here um is nobody knows, right? This is a this is this is a moment of I mean the the other great thing that WordPress has got going for it actually is that we are in a moment of huge disruption and because of the way WordPress is set up which annoys lots of people because it feels kind of chaotic but because of that because we're actually weirdly kind of really agile because somebody can come up with an idea over here and it can be plugged into WordPress. It's not like there's not just one person going we're going here and actually at this moment of craziness and massive dis disruption. >> Having that as a kind of >> foundation culture in our DNA is actually it feels like a weakness because some people are going no it must do this it must have this but actually having that flexibility we might look back and go that was actually its its main strength. It was kind of set up to be organic and slightly chaotic. Like if you're like if you're trying to create an organization right now, that's difficult, right? How do you create an organiza if you've got like a thousand people working for you, how do you create an organization that's dealing with the the the the wave that AI is coming? And probably one of the things you want to think about is how do we make ourselves as agile as possible so we can adapt as quickly as possible. And WordPress WordPress WordPress feels slow, but it's kind of open, right? So if you if you have an idea and you want to do it, you you you can kind of do it. So, it's an interesting it's an interesting conundrum. >> That's a that's that's a very good point. I that's the best point I've heard so far as as in a defense on on WordPress because exactly we don't we don't know exactly what's going to happen and you need to absolutely be agile in this time. Like I'm also doing that with my content. I'm not just saying like okay this is where where things are going. I'm I'm dipping my toes into into VIP coding, but I'm also still uh uh doing Elementor stuff and and I don't know, maybe Elementor AI will be super good, right? Maybe maybe Gutenberg AI or whatever. And like we we we have no idea. Um but we do know that the workflow of prompting is superior but that cannot do everything. Uh because I think also another strength is that the the um the available options for you to explore. So if you are vibe coding you have to ask everything. So um in a in a let's say SEO, right? You you you want an SEO uh optimized website, you can vibe code, but what does what does how can you be an effective vibe coder and create good SEO? You can only do that if you know what is possible. And how did these people learn that? Well, probably through a WordPress plug-in or or some something else. And so this this exploration that you just install a plugin and you're like, "Oh shit." Okay. Yeah, that was my camera again. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Sometimes my iPhone does a weird thing. But this this exploration thing, you just install a plugin and you're like, "Oh, wait. What is this? A schema? Oh, let me just go on YouTube or go to chat and ask what a schema is." and then um um it's you discover something new. But that's a big downside of of of a chat, it's that it's empty. It's an empty box. And so you need a really good plan. And I think WordPress is it's just a it's just a playground basically. You just, oh, I can do this. Oh, I can activate this plug-in. Oh, delete it. And like, oh, and this or what about this? And what about this? And like you learn through playing with this platform. >> Yeah. WordPress has always been really good at kind of giving people the space to disagree and come up with their own ideas and if they produce something that's like amazing, it'll get brought into core, right? >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's a collaborative thing. >> Yeah. Exactly. So, I think that Yeah. That's that's a big strength. We got some questions. >> Yeah. Let's Okay, let's we're we're one hour in now, so let's do answer some questions and then we're going to we're going to end it. Um, I'm just going to pull some stuff up. So, now is the moment, guys. If you're watching live, you have a question or you just want to share your view on it. Uh, drop it in the chat. Drop it again. Even if you have already dropped it, I'm not going to scroll back all the way. I'm just going to choose. Okay. What about now? Yes, exactly. Now is the moment to place your comment. Uh, let's see what Dennis is saying. Dennis uh is uh is is always here. Like I say before in other streams, WordPress need to shift to another way of seeing how people use WordPress is still block. Yeah, that's an interesting point. Like do you also think that WordPress still holds on to this blog thing too much? Like the default installation is still blocked and comments and almost nobody uses comments like how do you see that? >> Well, I see a lot of the sites again we tend to see WordPress as in what are there's two discussions here, right? One is the kind of onboarding experience. So I think that's a valid point. The second is I see a lot of sites that big publishers are using with WordPress who are definitely not using it as a blog CMS. They're using it massive newspaper publications for very complex workflows like News International doing some amazing stuff with um Gutenberg. So yeah, agree agree on the onboarding. I think that's definitely blog centric and I think that could be changed. Um, but there are some I mean lots of enterprises are using WordPress for incredibly complex workflows which we probably should try and highlight more. Um, yeah. >> Yeah. But but I think for the for the default, right, if you want to keep new people to the to the if you want to attract new people to the platform, it's it's it just feels a little bit weird that you're always presented with a blog instead of that that's an option. You know that's I think the strength of WordPress is that it is a good CMS but like there's no custom post type builder. You have to install a plugin. You have to know which one it is. >> Yeah. But I don't most people won't be using custom post types honestly >> really >> in WordPress. I know and your audience will be but I bet you all the money in my bank account that most people will not be using custom post types. an an an agency ccentric market will be but the average person will not be using custom post types in WordPress. So again we we come back to what should go in core what shouldn't go in core and there that's a fine debate but also I don't see the onboarding experience as being the onboarding experience shouldn't be the onboarding experience in a year's time right it should be it should be an AI onboarding experience which is completely separate to what we're talking about here so >> we can spend our time rebuilding the bridge or we can we can build an airplane and I think we should build the airplane to get across rather bridge I don't see that how people I don't see how that's people are going to be interact I hope that's not how people are going to you know interacting in WordPress in a year two years time I think we can do better >> okay another one um WordPress key feature is open source big history and a lot of devs who understand the architecture the biggest struggle in my eyes is the gap between old school devs and new age kids yeah how are how because I think even Matt talked about that like how are we going to attract the new the new cool kids and how we're going to keep them on the platform >> I think I I think first product the product has to be like so people like you can create get excited about creating content around WordPress like the same excitement you're like I sense it with you that you're creating with your vibe coding videos I sense that product has to be there and then it's like how do we get the and then content is a big part of that as well but I think honestly the product is the product has to be as exciting for um to use as as some of these vibe coding tools Like you see a lot of the lovable stuff they're going to schools and they're just they're doing like hackathons with kids where they're building apps. Do you know what I mean? That's like >> that's that's where we need to be. But that comes from we can and there's there's great initiatives to do stuff in universities, but I would love to be able to, you know, have a product that was so that easy to use that we could we could do stuff like that. Um and we can do stuff like that, but it needs a lot of handholding at the moment. So, so my Okay, my personal question is why has it taken I'm saying this a bit bluntly but I think yeah I think I can I can say that why has it taken 15 years to redesign the interface and it's it's they have announced it like more than two years ago and it is not a question to you like that you should justify the the company decisions but I'm just like if we want to attract the cool kids or and keep them on there and attract them is it not incredibly important that this part finally gets updated. >> Probably not. I mean, that's my this is my this is my personal view. I don't think a refresh on honestly I don't think an admin I've never had a client complaint I know a lot of people are very passionate about the admin interface. So, I'm probably gonna start a fire here. I've never >> really passionate about it. >> I've never had a client in all my years complain to me about the admin interface. I don't think that's what's going to that would not be my f. It's definitely can be improved. I'm not I'm not saying you can't >> but I don't think that's where I would start. I would start on the front end and say make that experience beautiful. >> Okay. I I respectfully fully disagree because the the um >> and it is getting a refresh. It's getting a refresh. >> I know. I know. But I've been I've been I hope it is before my pension uh starts. Sorry. been waiting so long. >> We can make the most beautiful admin interface in the world and it's not going to shift the dial in terms of new users. >> It it kind of is because Okay, so I I have >> I really I really don't want to spend five minutes talking about the admin interface. >> Oh, okay. Go. I just want to say one thing that that I got from from my my my um design degree like there is lots of things that design um influences in an indirect way. This is also why boring uh repeating advertising still works because it's it's in it's in the back of our head. it doesn't register it uh uh on the on the on the prefrontal cortex on on the rational level. It just happens in the background and we and I so your argument that people or your clients will not complain about the the interface. I don't think they ever will, but it's a feeling of like is this a platform that is actually taking the future seriously. And so yes, you can have you can build the most amazing prompt box and and but if people log in and they feel like this is still the same stuff as it was in 2010, then it's very hard to convince them that the whole workflow is actually super modern. So I think you're making it very hard for yourself uh as as WordPress as a company to not have to not just fix that small thing basically because it's not a huge thing. I'm I'm I'm nothing to do with the admin interface, so I'm not I'm not >> I know I I um >> I don't mind it. I mean, I'm I'm not a I'm not a uh from an aesthetic, I know people are going to jump on me here. I don't mind the end admin interface. It's never offended me. I'm kind of like, yeah, makes sense. Stuff is where I want it to be. >> Not about it. >> I'm being honest. I've never thought of the admin interface, oh, I'd really like it to do this. I've just never had that >> that experience. I would I would I would I would love the front end to be a beautiful experience for people. And so question for you if you if you had a choice A or B, you can work on the admin interface or you can create a beautiful front-end experience for users. Where do you where do you spend your time? Reena, >> I Okay, if I if if I would run WordPress right now, that would be the first thing I'd tackle because it's just a branding thing and I think WordPress has a branding issue and that's what that's the first thing that I would tackle. Of course, like I would absolutely invest in AI and make sure that that front end experience is good. But like I think this is one of these things that has been so long on the on the to-do list um and and being like on the do that I would just quickly knock it out. Like that's what I would do. >> Well, here's what I would do because obviously you can you can do that with WordPress. It's open source. So what I would do is create a beautiful piece of video with your new interface design. >> Get loads of people to start shouting about it. a bit like Mike McCullis's and some of his work which has now gone into core and you get you get a point and go this is what it should be like I mean that's I mean it sounds a bit clear but that is the opportunity in WordPress you can actually go and >> you can go and get involved and say this we need this and >> okay so lessing more doing >> well yeah maybe >> that's okay >> I don't think I don't think like I did this video with Brian Cords last year which was how to fix Gutenberg where we we were very polite actually it was before I joined automatic but we were very polite and we pointed out a lot of the issues um >> that it had. And actually I did I I did this series of videos with my daughters where I give them tasks to do and um they were trying to accomplish them and I got feedback this was before I joined automatic that people in automatic and then in WordPress had watched those videos and had taken action on them because of how they saw my daughters struggling with some aspects of Gutenberg. So you can, you know, which is a beautiful thought. My daughters were having impact on software that's running >> 43% of the web. So you do have agency with your 267,000 subscribers to have >> impact. >> Well, thank you. And I I know like I've mainly my efforts has been in Elementor. I've I I have been and also with other products. I've influenced things in the background that people don't even know. Just I send videos to companies and sometimes that has an effect. So I I do understand the impact of of my work. Even though we we um uh even if the video only gets a few thousand views, it only has to see one you only have to to put a seat in one person's mind, which is important enough and you know change can happen. So okay. >> Yeah. Dennis is saying waha Jamie good call. I think he agrees with me that um you're wrong and I'm probably right on that >> about the interface. You mean >> Dennis? I think just give a thumbs up. >> Dennis. Okay, we'll see. We'll see. Let's Let's not Let's move on from the from the from the interface. We We're having a super chat. Somebody Somebody paid something. That's nice. P What is that? P 50. What is that? 50 P. What what country are you are you doing that from? That's very nice. It looks like super chat. I think we got a little donation for uh for our discussion. >> That's Bitcoin, I think. >> Oh, maybe it's Bitcoin. That would be 50 Bitcoin. That's a pretty good donation. >> Right. We're off. It's retired. >> Okay. Um >> Dennis. Dennis. Dennis confirmed. >> Dennis confirmed it. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Okay. Dennis. Okay. Maybe. Maybe well you know like you said what I can do if if I really want the interface to change I can I can do um I can give some ideas and I've I've complained before about it but yeah you're not the first one who said who who tell me this that I I with my channel I can influence something but it WordPress always feels like this big monster that cannot be influenced easily because if you're you know you know our position we get approached by every single whole company inside of WordPress. Uh like I I oh my god, >> my my my email inbox right now, I haven't because I'm so busy with with all of the content right now. I haven't checked my my collaborations email for three weeks. It's on 60 emails right now. I don't even want to get started. >> Well, that's that's another that's another interesting Now, I've since I joined Automatic, I'm not doing any sponsored video content. I had a few leftovers to run. >> Um but I would say that I you've already seen the shift too, right? 90% of the emails I get for sponsorships are AI companies, not WordPress companies at all now. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Like it's >> and some of some of the money they're talking about is absurd as well. Like it's just crazy >> the amount of money swilling around. >> Oh, of course. I I I sometimes I mean people don't really like it when there's too much sponsored content, but they don't see the the 99% of sponsors we we reject before we accept one, you know. So, um, yeah, but what I wanted to say is that the Wait, why did I want to say that about the the collaborations? Ah, I forgot my point. I forgot my point. Let's go back to the to the chat. Such a great chat. Thank you, Lana. Lana from Croco Block. >> I've got to go in about three minutes, Reena. Okay, so >> all right. Sure, sure. Sure. You uh Dennis uh doubles down. You can't work on everything. You're right. The admin is still the same, but the experience feels out there. Yeah. Okay. It just feels outdated, you know. >> One uh I think >> yeah, >> if you go and install the view transitions plugin, which I think might be coming to WordPress 7 that it it feels beautifully buttery smooth. View transitions. It's a free plugin. >> Uh which um yeah, it just makes the whole it's it's not going to solve all your problems, but it does make it feel a bit smoother. >> Yeah, I've tested that one. It's it's very nice. It's it makes it uh a lot smoother. Yeah, but you know this this discussion was mainly about about WordPress. It was just like this thing about the interface. Many people have strong feelings about it. So, >> yeah. Okay. Uh Jamie, I uh I want to thank you a lot. I could I could talk an hour or more with you and I I'm sure we will have a good conversation on Word Camp. If there are people here watching right now that are also coming to Word Camp, then feel free to walk up to us and please don't just >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Can I do a quick a quick plug for Word Camp? So, >> of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, um Word Camp Asia in Mumbai next in April. Uh we're doing a speed build um which is a live build where we've got two players on stage building a site. Um uh it's coming to Mumbai which is incredibly exciting. So, if you're in Mumbai, come and say hello. But also come and watch that one because it's it's kind of traumatic for me because I'm trying to run it but it's also a lot of fun and jeopardy. So, come and say hello. There you go. And of course, let's also give a give a u well the link to his channel is in the in the YouTube description. Um I yeah, I would advise if you're on Twitter to follow him there. Uh let me just quickly share that on the screen. So this is uh Jamie's Twitter, Press. That's your name. That's your name, right? >> Well, yeah, that's my old company name, which is um still my you can't change Twitter name. So that's Yeah. Poodle Press. >> Okay. Okay. And on YouTube it is uh also PL press. >> No, it's JamieWP. >> Oh, JamieWP. There we go. So, if you want to get to his channel and uh where can they reach you if they want or is that just like uh not not really what you want to share? >> Yeah, just uh DM me on probably X is probably the best place. Just message me on X and that's probably the best place at the moment. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. >> All right, Jamie. >> Thanks so much. >> Thanks everyone. >> Yeah, thank you everyone. This was uh this was great and uh we'll um probably have >> Sorry, I am on LinkedIn. Message find me on LinkedIn as well. So, >> I'm actually more active on LinkedIn, which is it's kind of >> it's LinkedIn I'm finding much more useful these days than I used to. So, I'm on LinkedIn. Just probably search for my name, Jamie Marson, and you'll find me on Yeah. Sorry. >> All right. No, I'm I'm so happy that that you that you decided to spend one and a half hours uh with me on this and thank you again and people in the comments are also uh very happy that that you were here. Thank you both for this talk. See you there Jamie. Okay, people are coming to work camp. So that is uh that is very cool. Uh which work camp? Yeah, the one in Asia in Mumbai in a month from now, a month or two. the 8th or 9th. It's April the 9th, I think. >> Yeah, I will show it. You have to go now. I will I will give a little bit more context about that and then we'll just end the stream after that. So, thank you, Jamie. >> And we'll speak. >> Cheers. Bye. Bye. >> That was the discussion. What did you guys think? I haven't checked all the comments, but I'm going to do that right now. And I'm also going to just quickly pull up that work camp event we're going to. So, Word Camp Asia. Oh, wait. This one. Oh, this one. This is the event. It's It's the biggest WordPress event. The Asia edition is always very big. The Europe one as well. I'm not sure yet if I'm going to go to the world or from to the Europe one as well. But, uh, yeah, Jamie and I are both going to be going to be here. I think it was a very interesting discussion, guys. What do you think? like it's it's you know it's so good to have these discussions because it's it's if you're only in your own head you you you're in an echo chamber and it's it's interesting to see the chat some people I see Lex Lex agree with me on the interface um and and Dennis doesn't so um yeah there's different people different perspective and that's how we learned from each other and I just want to say one more thing before we before we end and that's I and I I'm guilty of this as well, but I I think our mind we always want to think in black and white, right? We want to see like, okay, is WordPress gonna is WordPress going to die? You know, is this page builder going to die? And the truth is probably that we're going to have a whole bunch of different tools existing next to each other. And there's there's probably going to be even more workflows than than what we have today, right? Because until two years ago, the only discussion we had was um uh well the first discussion is are you going to handwrite code or page builder? But most people have realized that page builders are are more efficient so and and a nicer experience. So but then within page builders you can choose a whole bunch of things right inside and outside of WordPress. But now the discussion is com is much wider. It's it's are we gonna uh do the old page builder just doing everything manually because we don't like AI that's also of course still an option. Then uh are we going to integrate AI into that builder? Then uh maybe just use the AI tools that they provide or are we going to connect our cloud and we're going to create some skills that are specific to our workflow. I'm starting to become a big fan of that. Uh so I hope that builders like Elementor will also allow that. Um, uh, I'm actually testing an MCP right now. It's going to be interesting. I got a an an an an video call two days ago from a company that built an WordPress MCP and they can basically control everything within WordPress and also inside of page builders. So, that's going to be a workflow. Um, and um, yeah, what else? Uh, of oh, of course, not having a page builder, but doing it straight into Gutenberg. Then also what you can also do what he what Jamie also showed is cloth code go straight into the theme. So you don't even have the editing panel but you do have WordPress to plug all of your plugins in because again a website is not just front end right we need to connect all kinds of systems it needs to have it needs to have backups needs to have analytics you need to have a cookie plugin you need to have a uptime monitor you need all of these different things in order to make it work. So it is a lot more. Um um I I just wanted to to to say this that the whole discussion uh on social media is often like oh this company is dead. It's like well well it's not really like that. And of course I am I am challenging Jaime's views a little bit and I know he is really a fan of the future NAI and me too. But I just hope that you see my dynamic here. I'm not just going uh into one direction yet. Uh maybe I will at some point decide like okay this is the direction I'm going to go into. I'm right now in a phase where I'm trying to figure out what this new workflow is. And so when you have when we have a person like Jamie in the call um I'm just going to challenge his views a little bit and you know play play devil's advocate a little bit and yeah in this way we can get insight. So, I hope that I did a good job here. Uh, let's quickly check the uh the comments. Emin, yeah, absolutely. I made a video about that like uh probably a year ago. This was um a game changer. Yeah, I'm in Mumbai. Um um important talks. Yeah, it was definitely important. you think the same? I agree with you like Jamie like since we have choices. Yeah. Okay. Uh let's just check a few comments and then I'm going to close it off. Uh yeah, I think good to break for is going to be nice future. You can easily extend vape pay if you like. You have more design control. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean speed is going to become more important, right? But page builders are also moving in this direction. Where are we going to get more speed? Uh Lusaka and Zombia. Okay, just putting final touches on the headless Nex.js front end that's connect to my Oh, that's actually that's another workflow that's possible, right? Headless, you just create the the front end in lovable. Um, wait, I actually need to write that down. That's actually a good point. Uh, front end vibe coding and backend WordPress. So, you're using the the WordPress uh uh post system and then you're just the front is completely super fast, clean code. Very very good point, Jason. Uh cloth code work would be a game changer. Yeah, we would love to come back to WordPress if something is coming to the future, but the point of speed function flow is uh come back to WordPress. Okay. Did so did you already move to away? I don't know. what you exact what you mean with that but um yeah it has been uh interesting uh is that on brand perception is yeah I can't wait to see Reno's video yeah like is for me personally I I just don't understand why why I why this is such a a a thing that there is a resistance on like it's not that hard to make it better. It's not a big task, right? And I understand that they want to rebuild the whole thing with a modern stack. Uh and because right now it's based on old code. I mean, I've heard that from some developers that that's the reason why they cannot do it. But like yeah, I think brand perception is incredibly important and and I am a big fan of that. like I much of my skills as a as a as a as a as a human are in branding and and marketing and I'm also a designer and a no code developer but I I care a lot about how a brand positions itself and I want to feel like I'm working on the future right and I think this has an deep effect on the on the on the subconscious of of of us and so I think if WordPress would would modernize uh just even before they let's say They're they're close to revamping the whole UI. I know. But let's say that that takes another year. I would just, you know, give WordPress 7 a little fresh paint and not just the colors. They they changed the colors. That's already better. But I think it just needs a little bit more, you know. Yeah. He just pops the comments which supports. Why you so pushy? What? Somebody pushy here? I don't know about that test research for that anti-gravity and geminis. Yeah, I would love to test more of these things guys. Um I came in bit late. Did he mention schema plugging schema plugging? I've been added manually to but I know there are plugins there. Anyone have I don't know. Are you talking about the SEO schema? I'm not exactly sure. Drupal have done that as well, Reno. It looks totally different from a from a few of you. Yeah. And and again, I think that that's very important for the perception of the brand. And if if WordPress is struggling right now to keep to attract the cool kids Yeah. then and and if you're not taking design, if you're not prioritizing design and just how it feels, right? Not really how it changed in the way it works, but just how it feels, I think it will be very hard to attract to cool kids because if you don't understand, this is this is my point. If you don't understand how WordPress works and you come into this world for the first time, the only thing you can judge is your eyes. Like in the same way, if you're meeting a girl, you the the first thing you have to judge have to judge is how she looks. You don't know about her personality. So, you cannot judge it, right? And it's and and this was why it's incredibly hard for WordPress to attract the the new cool kids because Yeah. because that first judgment can only be on the visual side and then after years you realize the power of WordPress but then yeah you've already accepted the interface you know so brand perception somebody tell me builder is their sense AI doesn't work oh builder is yeah yeah I I have that I've seen that it's uh it's quite cool it's a generation inside of it uh tuning in but yeah you're very late literally at the end of the live stream but of course you can brought you back. This live stream will be automatically turned into a replay. Guys, this has been great. Um, I'm going to close it off now with all the news I have coming up. It's always deciding which one to keep because the cost Oh, that's a good point as well. That's a very good point. But then again, even if you decide right now or if you if you are convinced that AI coding tools can are better and they can solve every problem that WordPress ha or they they are better in than WordPress. Let's say that you come to that conclusion. Then what are you going to do with all these websites that you have right now? You're going to convert them? Probably not. Maybe if you're if you're deciding that you're going to do a rebuild, but people don't have time right now to rebuild the whole thing, right? So that's why WordPress market share will not immediately drop right now. It's impossible, right? Just the fact that something is available does not mean people will will start using it. I mean, look at claude and chat GPT. I mean now actually this week people uninstall CHGPT a lot because of some shady stuff that they're doing but most of the world just uses Chet GPT. They don't even know Claude exists. So yeah, that's all I wanted to say. Uh this has been amazing guys. Thank you as always for being here. Uh, this was fun and uh I will see you in the next stream., Can WordPress Survive the AI Era?, YouTube, 01km12edzjjy3n8h4s2z6mjreq.