Captivating: Cringe Book Club | Healed-Ish: Episode 92  🔗 **Source:** [Captivating: Cringe Book Club | Healed-Ish: Episode 92](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5ZR06NTW7g) > [!note]+ Document Notes > --- > tags: [complementarianism, purity-culture, gender-essentialism, christian-deconstruction, evangelical-womanhood] > author: Jubilee with Abigail (Healed-ish) > source: Jubilee Dawn (YouTube) > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5ZR06NTW7g > date created: 2026-09-28 09:05 > --- > > [!info] Generated analysis — not the author's words. Sections below are machine-written > > from the captured source. Only text inside `> [!quote]` blocks is verbatim from the author. > > Do not quote or attribute any other line to the named author. > > [!warning] Auto-caption artifacts. Book co-author Stasi Eldredge renders as "Stacy Eldridge," > > "Stacy Aldridge," and "Stacey Aldridge"; her co-author husband John Eldredge is correctly > > spelled but their surname is sometimes "Eldridge" in captions. The host is addressed once as > > "Julie" (00:05:09) and once as "Jubilee" (near 00:51:23, matching the channel name "Jubilee > > Dawn"); which is a given name and which is a caption slip is not resolved here, so this note > > uses "Jubilee" for the host and "Abigail" for the guest throughout. Abigail's social handles > > render as "Fabio 11" (TikTok) and "Fabio Insta" (Instagram) — almost certainly caption errors > > for her real handles. The scholar cited on circular reasoning renders as "Dan Mlen," most > > likely Dan McClellan. Éowyn (Lord of the Rings) renders as "Aoen." Verify names before quoting. > # 🏷️ Title: Captivating: Cringe Book Club | Healed-ish: Episode 92 > ## 🧭 Table of contents > - [📝 Summary](#-summary) > - [📖 Main content](#-main-content) > - [🗒️ Notes](#-notes) > - [📚 References](#-references) > - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#-paraphrase) > - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) > - [✅ Action items](#-action-items) > - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) > - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) > - [❓ Questions](#-questions) > - [🔮 Future research](#-future-research) > - [💡 Implications](#-implications) > - [🧠 Learning styles assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) > - [📊 Accessibility assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) > - [🌍 DEIB assessment](#-deib-assessment) > - [✅ Logical validity](#-logical-validity) > - [🛡️ DARVO analysis](#-darvo-analysis) > - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) > ## 📝 Summary > - **What happened.** Jubilee (host, channel Jubilee Dawn) and returning guest Abigail (who hosts her own show, The Redirect Podcast) read *Captivating: Unveiling the Mystery of a Woman's Soul* by John and Stasi Eldredge on-air, launching a "Cringe Book Club" segment inside Healed-ish episode 92, a roughly 51-minute episode published 2026-09-18. > - **The claim.** Both hosts argue the book repackages ordinary gender socialization, complementarian theology, and Stasi Eldredge's own unprocessed childhood trauma as universal "God's design" for women, using movies and folklore as evidence rather than theology or data. > - **Why it matters.** Both hosts read the book as teenagers and describe having treated it as near-scriptural ("this was Bible"), and they connect that formation to concrete costs: purity-culture shame, staying in bad relationships, and a specific account of Christian-college friends who prayed during sex to sanctify it and later divorced and left religion. > - **Key stakeholders.** John and Stasi Eldredge (authors); Jubilee and Abigail; the youth-group and Bible-study pipeline that assigned the book to teenagers; listeners who may have been shaped by it and are invited to comment. > - **Risks and tradeoffs.** The episode names real harm plainly but stays mostly in a comedic register; neither host cites outside research, and several of their own claims about "patriarchy" as *the* explanation are asserted with the same confidence the book uses for "God's design," without external sourcing either. > - **Bottom line.** A peer-to-peer deconstruction conversation, candid about personal cost, generous toward people who still find the book meaningful, and consistent in tracing its claims back to gender socialization and Stasi Eldredge's own trauma rather than to theology. > ## 📖 Main content > - **The premise: two friends read the source material of their own formation, live.** Jubilee and Abigail both read Captivating as teenagers and describe treating it as near-scriptural; Jubilee describes thinking "this was Bible." > - **The stated credentials are thin, by the hosts' own account of the book's framing.** John Eldredge already had a bestseller in Wild at Heart. The hosts describe Stasi Eldredge's qualification to co-write the "women's version" as: she is a woman, she was a feminist in college, she had an abortion, and she "found Jesus and found out how to be a godly woman" — a characterization drawn from how the book itself frames her backstory, not an outside claim about her. > - **The audiobook's split narration draws a specific complaint.** Jubilee, listening via Audible, describes John Eldredge reading passages even within the "women's" book and calls the audio format worse than the print text. > - **The book's central move, per both hosts: gender socialization gets relabeled as "God's design."** The clearest example is a passage about children's dress-up play (boys as cowboys and Jedi knights, girls with jewelry and heels) treated as evidence of innate difference. Jubilee's framing: "They are mistaking gender socialization for God's design." > - **Movies function as the book's evidence base, and the hosts flag the circularity directly.** Cinderella, My Big Fat Greek Wedding, and Lord of the Rings are all cited as proof of the thesis. Jubilee's counter: culture reflects patriarchy back at itself, so its ubiquity gets misread as divine design rather than as evidence of the world "we live in a world dominated by patriarchy." > - **The "three core desires" model draws the sharpest satire.** To be romanced, to play an irreplaceable role in a great adventure, and to unveil beauty. Both hosts reread "irreplaceable role" as a damsel-in-distress plot function dressed as agency, and "romanced" produces the episode's recurring bit that the book is, in Abigail's words, "the horniest book I've ever read for Jesus." > - **Beauty is named as the book's real, repeated subject.** Abigail counts the synonyms used to say the same thing across hundreds of pages, and both hosts note the book insists beauty isn't about physical appearance while consistently illustrating it with physical-transformation stories. > - **The hosts offer a specific alternative diagnosis: attachment theory, not gender essentialism.** Jubilee reads Stasi Eldredge's own description of parental abandonment and reframes the book's claim that "every woman" wants to be pursued and prioritized as Stasi's unprocessed childhood wound, generalized into doctrine. > - **Stasi Eldredge's own trauma disclosures get a careful, sympathetic read.** She describes an absent father and a difficult childhood in the book; the hosts note that as she "leaned into her femininity" she came to recast bad memories as good ones. Abigail describes this as embodying "the perfect soldier" rather than doing trauma work, and flags the book's habit of routing distress through "spiritual warfare" instead of therapy — including the specific worry that this reframes what could be PTSD as demonic attack. > - **The sex chapter is the most-quoted section, and the hosts' read is that the language does something the authors won't name.** God calls Stasi "darling"; she takes that as confirmation via Song of Solomon, which the hosts note is a poem about human lovers, not a metaphor for God and an individual reader. A passage from Hosea gets the same treatment despite being, in context, a metaphor for God and Israel, not two people. Abigail's stated theory, framed as a joke with a serious point underneath: "I think John and Stacy Eldridge want to be kinky but they feel like they can't" — her actual position is that an ethical kink relationship is fine, and the problem is dressing it in theology instead of naming it. > - **Real-world harm is named directly, not left implicit.** Jubilee connects the book's intense, God-as-lover language to specific accounts: listener comments about youth pastors recommending worship music during sex, and Christian-college friends who prayed during sex to sanctify it, later divorced, and left religion. Jubilee s All right, friends. Welcome to another episode of Healedish. And this was the most painful episode that we will ever be recording [laughter] on the podcast because I have Abigail here with me today. You might remember her episode where she wrote letters to her future husband. [music] And yeah, we decided that for this episode we were going to read this amazing book, Captivating. [laughter] And Abigail, did you read this growing up? I read this. So my context with this book is I read it as a teenager and I remember with my first little high school boyfriend, I was like, "Oh, you should read Captivating and I'll like we could we should we should read our books and then we'll switch and then I'll read Wild at Heart and you read Captivating." We never ended up doing that, but I remember being super into it as a teenager and really feeling like, "No, this was the key. Like, this was Bible. >> This is Bible. It was the Bible." And I remember it was on my shelf and it it was crazy reading it. You guys have to know, we we both kind of put it off because honestly, this is this book is painful. Okay, as we were reading it, >> was really bad. >> It was a lot. Just know that we really love you guys that we forced ourselves to read it. But I was texting Abigail yesterday and I was like, "Are you reading this right now? This is the most insane book." And what's so funny is when we when I first started it, the first few paragraphs weren't that bad. And I actually thought to myself, "Oh, I hope that we didn't pick one that's not super problematic or else we're not going to have anything to say." So, first of all, John Eldridge wrote Wild at Heart. That's a bestseller. It's like God in a Man's Heart or whatever. But then she apparently wasn't credentialed enough to write the women's version of this book by herself. So he co-writes this book with her. But like her credentials for why she knows so much about women. Um a she's a woman. So there you go. And b um she was a feminist in college, which she really quickly gets to that she was a big feminist in college and she even had an abortion. So those are her credentials and then she found Jesus and she found out how to be a godly woman. >> Yes. And that's pretty much what this book is. And I remember this book was going around youth group at the time because >> if you were an evangelical during that time, you probably have heard of the wild at heart. So basically you have the guy version, you have the girl version and it says here is what your purpose is. And I unfortunately I'm going to return it. So, don't think that I'm actually giving them my money, but I was listening to it on Audible, actually, the uh the narration. And it was so much worse because >> So, do they narrate it >> together? They narrate it. >> I know. >> So, I kid you not, she'll read a paragraph, then he reads a paragraph. So, I just hear this man talking about like what it means. >> Why would a man be here? >> And why was a man there? he'll just pop in like when it comes like she's allowed to do the passages that are about storytelling and um her personal experiences, but anytime it comes to anything, let's be clear, this book is not theologically sound. If if theology is something you care about, which is not really particularly something I care about, but let's say it was something that you cared about, this book is not based in really any theology that is like respectable in the theological community. It's just completely vibes based. >> Oh, it is. And it was so funny. There was a part in there, too. I think it was like halfway through the book, he said, "When she first asked if I wanted to write this book or the idea came up with us co-writing it, I really didn't want to write it because women are oh, it's like a whole beast. >> Women, you know, and I was like, maybe you should have followed that. Maybe you shouldn't have written a book." One of like very early on there's a passage I highlighted that really sums up the thesis of this book and their their perspective on boys and girls and men and women. First of all being that those are the two choices, the two genders, men and women, boys, girls. And there throughout this book there's only the assumption that people like that men and women would want to be only with each other. They have a very traditional view of sexuality, gender, attraction, everything. But they have this passage. It's little, it's why little girls play dress up. Little boys play dress up, too, but in a different way. Our sons were cowboys for years or army men or Jedi knights. But they never once dressed up as bridegrooms, fairies, or butterflies. Most little boys don't play dress up with mommy's jewelry and high heels. They don't sit for hours and brush each other's hair. And they talk they go on to talk about how girls like to twirl skirts and like be beautiful and be captivating. And it's like the whole book just comes down to what if you actually thought about the way that boys and girls were socialized. They are mistaking gender socialization for God's design and they talk and then they just do that for 400 pages. >> Mhm. >> Yes. And they continually talk about movies. It it was crazy how much they referenced movies and books in this tried to prove their point of why men and women are this way. Like, oh well, you see it in this movie, so it's God's design, >> right? They're like, well, patriarchy has informed culture, and so the culture is reflecting it back. So, it's just so ubiquitous. It's everywhere. It's that must be because it's God's design, not because we live in a world dominated by patriarchy. Whatever. Go ahead. This is your show, Julie. >> Yes. No. Oh my gosh. No, it's ours. See, if you guys don't know, Abigail has a book podcast, so I'm like, you you know exactly what you're doing. This is my first book episode [laughter] >> on Okay, so on my podcast, The Redirect Podcast, we did an episode this year about redeeming love. So, my co-host Emily and I reread Redeeming Love. That was so unbelievably painful, but this was worse. I actually genuinely think this was worse. >> Yeah, this was this was really bad. I honestly I was taking notes in my phone and then I was venting to Bran when I was picking him up from work. I was like, "You won't believe what this book said." And he was like, "Oh, honey, that's why, you know, you you know, I mean, like my life decisions make a little bit more sense when you think about the fact that this is the stuff that I was willingly consuming in youth group and eating up." >> It's funny. It's funny. Haha, this book sucks. It's funny, but it's actually not funny because it's stuff like this that leads people to get into abusive marriages and stay in them. >> Absolutely. >> So, >> uh, so it's really not funny. And okay, so if you guys have never read it, we are going to go through some of the main points of the book. We're going to read some passages. And also, please leave comments. Let me know if you guys read this. If you also had the joy of getting through these pages, cuz it's a lot. I particularly want to know if people read this in a Bible study setting or like in a small group setting. Did an older, wiser adult counsel you to read this? Like, I would love to see that. I'm sure I'm sure that happened all the time. Let's all have a captivating uh book club. So, basically, it says that there are three core desires of every woman and we want to be romanced and okay. Yeah, we're going to get to an entire chapter about romance. Like, I texted Abigail and I was like, this is truly the horniest book I've ever read in my entire life. It's like you just want to be loved by God. like just let God love you. And I I don't know. It was intense. >> Your exact text was this is the horniest book I've ever read for Jesus. >> We're horny for Jesus. >> You were horny for Jesus. It was so uncomfortable. >> And George Jesus is horny for you. Don't forget that. >> Yeah. Actually, actually, it says stuff like that. So, yeah, one of our core desires is to be romanced. And the next is to this killed me. play an irreplaceable role in a great adventure. So >> that reeks of complimentarianism which like >> that's exactly what this book is. >> Oh, you are so special. You are equal to men but in a different way. Men are like brave and like they want wildness and like adventure but women bring relational capacity and beauty and tenderness and softness. but in a cool warrior princess way. It's very confusing. >> Warrior princess way. It It really was crazy because if you guys didn't read Wild at Heart, that's pretty much the premise of the entire book is that men are wild. They're warriors. They They're built for adventure. >> Which women, we hate adventure. The thing that's crazy about that is like in my marriage, I'm the adventurous one. I'm married to a man and I am like, "Let's go do this, let's go do that. I like let's go hiking and camp. Guess what my husband wants to do? He wants to sit at home and read and play video game. You know what I'm saying? Like, [laughter and gasps] okay, whatever. Sorry. Keep going. No. Yes. Well, they they try to put in these boxes and you might think an irreplaceable role in a great adventure might be you're you're with them. You're leading the pack. No. Like what they kept referencing movies and saying you want to be saved. Think about Cinderella. Think about people in the tower, in the mancom. When they're talking about you being an irreplaceable role in a great adventure, they kept referencing where you're pretty much like a damsel in distress, but how sweet is it that you get to be a part of it. >> You get to be included. Don't worry, it's really important. So, the last one is to unveil beauty. And yeah, we were talking before we hit play because I feel like this book just repeated itself over and over and a lot of that had to do with beauty. And the amount of synonyms or ways that they said that women want to be beautiful like enticing, alluring, beauty, uh soft, femininity. There were so many words that they were using to place onto women saying that this is the core of who you are. And it was just all throughout the book. How did you come up with so many creative words to say the exact same thing over and over and over again? >> And I actually think what this comes down to is that is attachment theory. I think that what they are trying to get at is Stacy Eldridge's um attachment issues, but she's never been to real therapy. She's talked in here about Christian counseling, but she's like there's this quote right around the time where they're talking about the the irreplaceable role of women. She's like, "Don't you say that you want this? To be desired, to be pursued by one who loves you, to be someone's priority. Most of our addictions as women flare up when we feel that we are not loved or sought after at some core place, maybe deep within, perhaps hidden, or buried in her heart. Every woman wants to be seen, wanted, and pursued. We want to be romanced." And it's like, I think that you just have a parental abandonment wound. And that's okay, >> but that doesn't have anything to do with gender essentialism. [laughter] >> No. This whole thing is like Stacey Aldridge is like I have an abandonment wound because I had horrible parents which she did. Like she describes her parents were really messed up, but she had a rough childhood. So therefore, she's now placing that projecting that onto all women. All women have an abandonment wound and want to be seen and chased after and prioritized. And it's like I don't know. >> I know. I know. It it felt like a very much a Stacy thing. And it's hard because I know that these books have caused so much pain for so many people and have not been good for society. But I will say as I was reading it, I felt bad for Stacy because one thing that she was saying was, and this is kind of off topic, but I was like, we have to talk about this cuz I thought it was so interesting. She was talking about throughout the whole book of these horrible experiences that she had with her parents and her dad being really absent. And you know, she had real trauma there. And what was interesting is that she said as she leaned into her femininity and as she became healed in Christ and all of these things, she said that she started to realize that her childhood was beautiful and that she started to remember good memories. Oh, I remember the one time my dad got me a sweatshirt and he did love me and God healed me because I realized my dad >> actually did love me and >> it was she said I changed God rewrote the story of my life in my childhood and I thought it was so interesting. I don't know what did you think about that? Um I think what she's doing is embodying this idealized woman. They talk about this idea of there's this chap in this chapter it's like unveiling the mystery of a woman's soul. They describe like a woman at rest that's not like striving or always feeling embittered. And so she's like okay well if I can just find a way to feel grateful and happy and at peace and at rest with what happened to me then I will be embodying what it's like to be a godly woman. And so it's just like okay well let me just do that. Like I'm I'm the perfect soldier. I mean that's that was my read into it. I also think I'm sure that like Christian counseling has helped a lot of people but I don't know if that's replaceable for like actual evidence-based therapeutic services like therapeutic experiences >> and like there's some real healing and like she some trauma work that she could probably do >> and there's a whole chapter about like spiritual warfare and basically blaming like everything on spiritual warfare which is also really scary because it's like I don't know girl you have some real stuff to work through and it's possible that maybe these are PTSD flashbacks and not like a demon attacking you or whatever. So, it's just like let's like shove it down and be what I'm supposed to be. Be a godly woman. She says, uh, this is what it's like to be with a woman at rest. A woman comfortable in her feminine beauty. She is enjoyable to be with. She is lovely. In her presence, your heart stops racing. You relax and believe once again that all will be well. And this is why a woman who is striving is so disturbing. For a woman who is not at rest in her heart says to the world, "All is not well. Things are not going to turn out all right." Like a fountain troubled, as Shakespeare said, muddy, ill-seeming, thick, barereft of beauty. We need what beauty speaks. What it says is hard to put into words, but part of its message is that all is well. All will be well. Sometimes things are not well. >> Yeah. No. Yeah. Uh, and I've definitely known people like that in church who kind of it's like this band-aid of say all will be well and shove down, shove down, shove down. And >> I just thought it was interesting to hear her perspective of saying that she realized and kind of romanticizing that her parents were better than they were because I mean sometimes they're not. Like I I could look back I could make peace with myself and look back on my past marriage, but that doesn't change that that was not okay and the things that were done to me were not okay. And I think that that's fine to acknowledge. Maybe you had good moments and maybe she had good moments. Like you can have good moments in an overall otherwise kind of rough childhood, >> but it it does feel like it's more of a projection of how she should be performing or acting, you know? >> Yeah. Okay. And another really big theme was, you know, women unveiling their beauty and how important that is. And did you remember that one part where it said, "Look at art and you see so many women's naked bodies." Yes. Oh my god. I was telling Zach about this >> because they were like, "Oh, we went to like we spent a day at a museum in Europe and we were at the end of the day Stacy looks at Seawn and she's like, "How many like naked men's bodies did you see?" And I think I highlighted the quote. It was something like, "We don't want to see men's bodies in repose because something doesn't sit right with that. Men should be working. Men should be moving around." And like women are designed to be at rest. But which is it? Because women are designed to be at rest, but also they're supposed to like raise the children. And that's not being at rest. Like work like play an irreplaceable role in a great adventure. Like it was so weird. That was so weird. >> That was so weird. And okay, so I actually did write down one of the quotes because they were saying there were no naked men here. And it kind of made me sad for men because they were pretty much like no one wants to look at that. And I was like, damn. Like that's not >> And also not true, but whatever. >> Also not true. And um it said if we saw a naked man, we would be thinking he should be mowing the lawn. >> That's what That's right. That's what it was. [laughter] >> And I was like, what am I reading right now? Like that's that's crazy. And that's actually kind of sad. That's sad for men. >> It is. It It was It was weird. And again, it's one of those things where they're using culture to as like a proof positive for God's design. But it's also interesting because they're talking on two sides of their mouth because they're also like after the fall of Adam and Eve, everything comes back to Adam and Eve, which this is a podcast day. It's like >> this is literally a metaphor. I mean even I feel like even a lot of people who are like yes I am a Christian whatever they know that it is a metaphor it's like a poem not a literal creation story but whatever they keep coming back to how literal everything about Adam and Eve is and it's like okay if if you made the fall of humankind so such a big theme in this book then wouldn't the the behaviors and the things like the earthly things that we do after the fall of Eden wouldn't they be bad but they're like, oh no, like the way that we operate and the things that we do, it's proof that this was God's design. >> It's just like very hollow. It just doesn't stand up very well. And then and even another part they talk about women in the Old Testament were really subjugated and treated unwell. But if they were writing this book during Old Testament times, they would have been like, see, culture is proof that this is God's design, [laughter] >> right? >> I know. Yeah. It it really does not make any sense. And I I highlighted this part because it kind of is just the entire vibe of the book when it comes to beauty and how I said it kind of feels just like a word salad, right? We have heard it all said that a woman is most beautiful when she is in love. It's true. You've seen it yourself. When a woman knows that she is loved and loved deeply, she glows from inside. This radiance stems from her heart and her deepest questions have been answered. Am I lovely? Am I worth fighting for? Have I been and will I continue to be romanced? When these questions are answered, yes, a restful, quiet spirit settles in the women's heart. And I feel like that exact paragraph was just repeated all throughout the entire book. Beauty flows from the heart when it is alive. We have known women who you might describe as frumpy, who seem to not care about their appearance. [laughter] And we have seen them become women who have become possessed by great beauty. We have watched it grow in them as they discovered that they are loved deeply as their hearts came alive in response to the great bromancer. We are romanced. We are loved. And I'm just like, it's crazy how much they actually put on physical appearance in this book. It's not about physical appearance, but then it is. Well, and here's another quote I I highlighted that speaks to the beauty piece and like how powerful a woman's beauty is. Um, that proves that it is all about physical beauty is what they're talking about. There's a touching Oh my god. There's a touching story told from the hospitals of World War II. You Yes. >> I literally wrote this down. I'm so glad you're reading it. >> Where a young and badly wounded soldier was brought in from a hellish week of fighting. After doing what she could for him, the nurse asked if there was anything else she could do. Yes, he said. Could you just put on some lipstick while I watch Beauty Comforts? It soothes the soul, bro. Sexual harassment. [laughter] >> That is so sexual. And they're like, how sweet is that? That a woman's beauty can heal the soul. That it's just so yuck to put that in the book as if that is beautiful or okay for him to ask. They're like, "Isn't that lovely that a man can just be healed by looking at some girl's lips?" It's like it's odd. It's really weird. >> So weird. Oh my god. >> Very uncomfortable. Oh, and glasses were really catching strays. I have to find this quote. >> Yeah. And we're both glasses wearers. They were really hating on girls with glasses. >> They were. Okay. Yeah. Glasses were really catching strays because like we said before, they were always referencing movies. So, in this part, they're talking about My Big Fat Greek Wedding. Oh, yeah. And they're saying that this woman who literally hides behind the counter when an attractive man walks in the cafe, she hides her beauty behind big glasses in the day of contacts and baggy outfits and frumpy hair. And I was like, in the day of contacts? Like, are we safe? >> Some of us don't have contacts money. >> Thank you. And contact dry. >> I like my glasses. >> Yeah, I like them. But I was like in the day of contacts is crazy because you're pretty much like wow she doesn't care about her appearance at all. >> Oh [laughter] god Jesus Christ. >> So yes it really does have to do with physical appearance. Like there was a heavy focus on it throughout the book. As much as they would say, "Oh, it's not all about that." You literally talked about women being transformed and how they became prettier the more that they leaned into their femininity. Which I feel like this is a perfect chance to talk about. Have you seen the trend where they're like, "You have that Jesus glow?" >> No. Thank God I have. >> Are you serious? Oh my gosh. It's been everywhere. So I've seen so many Christian girls, they'll post and be like, "Me before I found Jesus." And then you swipe and then it like the first picture is them at the gym in the middle of the night, you know? Like it's so stupid. And then the second picture is them like in a doneup photo shoot with their hair and makeup done and all the comments are like, "Wow, the Jesus glow that you get when you become a Christian." Like you become you just started performing like heteronormativity or whatever. You started dressing for the male gays. >> Yes. Or or it'll be like dressing goth and then swipe and it's like the Jesus glow. It's been funny because I've seen some atheists, they have hopped on the trend and they'll do it, but they'll do it backwards. Um, and they're like, >> and they'll say, "Just kidding. I just got dressed and I'm an atheist, but I guess I have that Jesus glow." You know? >> I don't [clears throat] know if this is cuz the trend I've seen is people like before and after coming out and then their second is like, "Oh, when they're dressing the way that that makes them feel comfortable or whatever, but I don't know if it was born from that." It's like I don't know, maybe it's mocking of that original one. >> I wouldn't be surprised. >> That's crazy. Well, one of the things about the beauty that they make this really weird reach for. They talk about women's beauty and unveiling her beauty, how powerful it is, all this stuff. And then they're like, Satan hates it. Satan is so jealous of Eve. So it's like they said, but most especially he hates Eve because she is captivating, uniquely glorious, and he cannot be. She is the incarnation of the beauty of God. First of all, like that is totally unsubstantiated. More than anything else in all creation, she embodies the glory of God. And Satan hates it and he's jealous. And that's why Satan has a particular vendetta against women and why there's extra oppression. That's like their explanation for why society like oppresses women so much is because Satan has like a big beef with women, which is so weird. It's just so weird when patriarchy is right there. They're like, "What could it possibly be? What could be the answer for why women have it so bad in the world?" And they're like, "It must be that Satan hates us, especially cuz we're pretty." >> That's so [laughter] weird. And also, it's not just because we're pretty, cuz I wrote this down, too, talking about Eve. It said, "The devil chose her because she gave life and the devil gives death." It said just like the stepmother goes after Cinderella because again everything comes back to the Disney movie and princesses and I wrote Wild Jump because I just feel like they're constantly saying things that are not theologically sound. And when they were telling the creation story, there is a section where they talk about how God created the world, the universe, all of that, and how women were made so beautiful. They go on this long rant on the steps and what exactly happened and how these things emerged. And I wrote a fanfic on how the earth was created because like none of this is in the Bible, you know, the way that they're describing it and they're writing it as if it's fact and like you said, like going back to the Eve thing, they're putting all of these assumptions that no biblical scholar would say that any of this is legit. I went to a conservative Bible college and I would say most of the professors at my conservative Bible college would laugh at this perspective on the creation story. I feel like most real theologians agree that the Genesis story is a metaphor. >> Yeah. >> And that's okay. You can still just because something is a metaphor or like the flood that didn't happen. So real. That was one of the first things to go for me and I made peace with that. You know, I think it's fine to make peace with the fact that a story can have a purpose and a meaning and it it doesn't need to be factually true. Um, >> for there to be truth in it or like Jonah and the whale, >> a person did not live inside of a whale. You know what I mean? For three. >> Are you sure? >> Yeah, I'm sure. [laughter] And that's okay. You can still take something from it without it being totally true, but we need to like have that context. They're like, "Adam was standing right there next to Eve." I don't know. Just what if we just thought like what if we stopped being like that? I don't know. >> It was just It's a lot. It's a lot to derive this entire book off of like one story from the Bible that even most devout Christians who've studied it would admit it's like a method. >> Yes. And one thing that was interesting too is the wild at heart thing and the downfall of man was kind of referenced when they were talking about this because they were saying that Adam was right next to Eve when she's getting swindled or whatever by Satan. And they said him being passive was his sin. So, he had an equal part in the fall of man because he should have stopped her. And that's the downfall of man is that they shut down and they don't lean into their adventurous spirit. I don't know. It was It was stupid because yet again, this could all just be explained with like a basic understanding of patriarchy because patriarchy hurts men too. Oh, yeah. These systems that men created also hurt men. And it's not about some snake that got people to eat an apple or whatever, >> but are you sure? >> I mean, I know I'm probably going to piss some people off. I'm sure people are going to flip that and be like, "She's going to hell." Whatever. Also, when it comes to the relationship between man and woman, they have a chapter about essentially about sex and romancing Adam. And I just have to say I think that it's really boring. Like I like the way that they describe how women entice men to sex or whatever. It's boring. Like it's very vanilla. And I think like controversial take in this book. I was like I think John and Stacy Eldridge want to be kinky but they feel like they can't. So they wrote this book about the dynamics of men and women. And I just want to say to you guys, it's okay. If you want to have an ethical dom sub relationship, that's fine, but don't put it on everybody else. [laughter] [gasps] Well, I mean, the whole book I'm thinking, wow, this is the most sexual book I've ever read. And don't worry, guys, we're going to get to that. There's so many sections. I you you won't even believe it. But >> should we start Should we go to Jesus horniness? >> Yeah, let's go to Jesus horniness. It's a lot. Okay. Um, so she starts off the chapter by saying that she was on a walk or she was outside and she was realizing how beautiful nature is and she told God, "Thank you for how amazing the the world looked." And she heard God say, "I'm glad you like it, my darling." I stopped dead in my tracks. I blushed. Did the God of the universe just call me darling? Was it okay? What? Like I I had to pause there. She basically was like, "Is this wrong that I feel like God is talking to me like a lover?" And then later on that night, she's reading Song of Solomon. Of course, cuz I'm sure that's like her favorite book of the Bible. And she saw the word darling, and she took that as confirmation that, oh, that was God. And God does see me as a lover. This is another thing I'd like to say. Why do people like Christians make The Song of Solomon about God being horny for people when it's just like a sexual book about Solomon and like his lover? >> It's the OG book talk. It's like what? And similarly, I don't I don't think I highlighted this and I can't go back to it, but she talks about the story of Hosea and quotes parts of Hosea about Hosea like bringing his lover out to the desert and saving her and whatever. And this is so annoying because it's like I don't even really believe in this stuff anymore. But this isn't about two individuals. This is also a metaphor for God in Israel. And it's not about God and an individual person. There's just so like I'm like why do I know more about the Bible than the people who actually believe in it? Do you know what I mean? Like Yeah. It's it's very weird. It is very weird. >> Yeah. And I mean this just started such a wild turn of a chapter. I mean this is when I texted you. It's chapter 7 romance. And here she says and I I think it's like the language that they use as well. They don't need to use such sexual language, but they said, "The amazing love of God for me penetrated my heart in a new and deep way that night." And she said, "I realized he loves me like a lover loves." Whoa. And listen, in this context, I don't think we needed to use the word penetrated. >> Yeah. >> You're you're doing something on purpose and it's odd. I don't I don't like it. And that's like the whole thing about like I think I even remember thinking this like when I was in high school like saying something like you know God is like my husband or something. It's like >> boyfriend. >> What does that mean? Like why? You know what I'm saying? Like why? >> Yes. Yes. And I've gotten comments from people before who've told me that their youth pastors told them that when they had sex with their wives that they would put on worship music. And at one point they put on a worship song and said this is the song that me and my wife like to have sex to the most. Right? And how sex is an act of worship. And the whole time I was reading this book I was just like this these are the type of people who would entangle sexual just normal human marriage behavior with >> God and holiness and God please live in our bed. You know it's just it's odd. So I there was some I again so I went to Christian college. There were some people I knew in college who when they they were dating and they would like hook up but they weren't you know doing intercourse or whatever but they were like doing other stuff. And to make it not bad, like he would pray [laughter] during sex and be like, "Thank you, God, so much for like this." And like to make make it like holy, which is so sad. Like >> that's actually >> these were friends. >> These were friends of friends. And I know now that this couple, they got married, they're now divorced, and neither one of them are religious anymore. But it's like the mental hoops you have to jump through to rationalize this natural thing you need to do and spiritualize it. It's freaked out, man. >> During during the act, that's that's intense. It It's intense. It It doesn't surprise me. Um Okay, so some other things she talked about a wild God loves me as a lover. She kept referring to him as wild. Like it it felt like you know how sometimes people have said with Beauty and the Beast that they wish that the beast stayed a beast like they were like oh he was hot that way you know and it's like really weird like [laughter] that's the vibe I'm getting about this like this wild man loves me. It's like we're getting into strange territory. >> That's what I'm saying. I think they're just freaked out. Like I think that they are kinky and that is okay. But we don't have to write like a book and rationalize it and like make it spiritual. You can just get involved in the kink community. Learn how to like have an ethical kinky relationship and you guys can go do that and that's okay. >> Yes. Have fun. And >> and there doesn't have to be like a theological reasoning. But that's the thing is that it's like constantly trying to find the justification for it, you know, because I think they know it's uncomfortable. But >> going back to how she had blushed when God called her darling, she said, you know, stepping into this intimate relationship with Jesus, is this allowed? And it's like she is saying that she knows that it's sexual. Like she's having this weirdly sexual relationship with Jesus and she's asking herself, "Is this allowed?" Cuz right or am I just inferring? Because it's Why would you need to ask if it's allowed? Of course, you're allowed to have a personal connected relationship with Jesus. But you know that something more is going on here or you're putting some weird vibes in the air or else you wouldn't be asking is this allowed right or maybe it's like I read that when I read that too I was like uh she the way I interpreted it is that she was like I'm so used to God being my father and having this like fatherly or like my lord my master or whatever [laughter] >> but now he's also lover so Is he Is he not just dad? Is he daddy? [laughter] >> Literally, >> like I was, you know, is this like the starfish thing? Remember, like she walks around the beach and she like she sees all these starfish and like God gave her this present, do you love me as much as you love John? And God showed her all these starfish and she was like, "You do love me. You're in love with me. You want to romance me." [sighs and gasps] >> Yeah. Yeah. It was It was >> I think this all again could be explained by attachment theory. And if we had just gone to a few counseling sessions with our trained therapist, um, we wouldn't have needed to to write the book. And like you were saying with the he's my dad, my daddy, they also kept referencing little girls being obsessed with their daddy's attention. You know, they were like little girls love to twirl and they specifically want to know if their daddy likes the way that they look. like it was I felt deeply uncomfortable and she was saying, you know, it makes it made my heart beat faster and faster. And I think it really comes down to the language that she's using is what makes it so deeply uncomfortable because a couple other little quotes that I wrote down was women's worship brings Jesus immense pleasure. And then I was like I I feel sick. Okay. She was talking about, you know, with the tears and the perfume, that whole thing with Jesus. And she was talking about that story. And then she was saying, >> you know, when women worship Jesus, it just brings him >> extra pleasure. Extra extra pleasure. And she said, "Ask for his help in being desperately hungry for him." And >> I I just was so happy that I'm out of this because I'm picturing myself 15 or 16 years old. I was reading this and eating it up. >> Eating it up. >> Eating it up. >> I think it's also like I don't know. I just think also this whole thing about like this is just the whole premise of the book like this is what women are and this is what women should be. I don't know what even is a woman [laughter] like >> yes >> like why what I think a lot of what they're saying can just be explained by patriarchy and it can be explained by parental wounds, attachment theory. like women's behavior can also like and so if you want to in response to living under patriarchy so if you want to heal these wounds I think it's the the really sinister part of this book is maybe the structures that hold it up like I don't know organized religion need to take a better look inward on how they're upholding these systems that have that cause women to act this way or they're like oh women love relationship they really value relationship more than men it's like well maybe it's because they have to to survive life or women are, you know, embittered and I'm like, I wonder why. I don't know. It's just it's just so there's so many blind spots and they're just missing a lot of the story is what I think. >> Yeah. And when they opened the book, like I was saying, I thought, okay, is this not going to be as problematic as I thought because I think they said something to the effect of, you know, women can be different, you can be a tomboy. This has nothing to do with this. And I was like, oh, wow. So, we're not going to say that women have to be one thing. No. Like a as the book went on, absolutely they are saying that. Um, it's all about femininity. And do you want to get into how they describe the different types of women? >> So, you know, we have people who are really in tune with their femininity and are most likely just kind of perfect like Stacy. Uh, but we also have controlling and doineering women, which was, yes, crazy. >> And the whole framing of the controlling and doineering woman, the danger of her is that she like snuffs out a man's flame. Um, kind of like the the framing of a controlling or doineering woman is that she is not enticing or alluring. She she's striving and she's not at peace. She's not at rest. >> And it's unattractive. >> It's Yeah, it's kind of repulsive. I think they use that word. It's not desirable. >> I wanted to read this one section because it's just so crazy. They're they're talking about again a TV show or movie, I don't remember. But basically, this woman's child is in the hospital and needs a lot of care. And she's bossing people around and telling them, "Hey, my kid needs this, my kid needs that." Right? And it said she needs no one. She is in charge on top of things constantly. She is a woman that knows what she wants. Some of us might even admire that. But consider this. There is nothing merciful about her. Nothing tender and certainly nothing vulnerable. She has forsaken essential aspects of her femininity. >> Mhm. Just because she's taking care of her kid. Like I I I hated that honestly. >> So like [laughter] Yeah. It's so like blinds like it is so one-dimensional. the the perspective on women and and why a woman might feel that she needs to like take control of what's going on around her and be the head of her own household is is crazy to me. It's just so tonedeaf. >> Yeah, absolutely. And this part is insane. A little bit later on, you know, they're talking about controlling and doineering women. And I think that this to me might have been the most shocking part of the book. So I was just like, what are you even saying? It said, notice also how most of wicked witches are women or stepmothers. [laughter and gasps] I'm like, damn. Okay. Have you ever wondered why it is that for years until the feminist movement, it might be noted with irony that hurricanes were named after women? It's just patriarchy, John. Oh my gosh. I was like, are you really saying that women are named the hurricane because we're so scary? Women are so awful when they're doineering and gross and we're not in touch with our femininity that we deserve to have hurricanes named after us because we're so awful. That's crazy. And he's using it again to validate his point that women are doineering. It's like, what? Oh my gosh. It's like it's it's like that meme of surge protector or whatever and it's like the it's plugged into itself. It's like this is like yes this is like you are using it's like oh God is real the Bible said so. So like >> I love Dan Mlen um he's done some great videos on that where he says you know people want to prove the Bible by Bible verses you know but that presupposes that I believe in the Bible. You know what I mean? So it it's kind of like you're using the thing to prove your point. >> Circular circular reasoning. He's like, "Oh, well well women uh hurricanes are named after women, so women must be doineering." Or it's like maybe patriarchy hates women. Maybe men hate women, so men named hurricanes after women. I don't know. Maybe that's like reaching too far. >> Gosh. And then he finishes this amazing paragraph by saying, "Now, sure, a calculating, heartless man makes a frightening villain, but somehow it's even worse when the villain is a woman. >> I can't with this man. I >> can't that maybe that's a you problem, John. I don't know. I love my villains as women. I love my women." >> Oh my god. >> I love my women's spiteful. >> So insane. Yeah. So they talked about controlling, doineering women. They also talked about desolate women. Do you want to talk about that a little bit? >> Yeah, remind me. The desolate women are just like listless, have given up on life. >> Yes. They're like sad women, you know. Um, so you don't want to be one of those or else you're too much that. And it kind of made me feel like you can't win. You don't want to be too doineering, but then you also don't want to not have a spine. Essentially, like they were saying, you have to be this perfect amount of femininity and grace. >> Michelle Duggar, right? So, Proverbs 31, running my household, getting everything done, always has a smile, and always talking in his voice, and always so grateful and happy to be here, but like not you can't be sad. We're just so thankful to God. It's like, oh my god. [laughter] Yeah. No, really. And the Yeah, this book was just really crazy. I don't know. Was there any other things that you wanted to chat about? >> I mean, the basically the way that they round out the book is talking about, you know, uh they talk about spiritual warfare and they talk about common attacks that that Satan has on on women and that there's like a way forward in a great adventure. They talk about Lord of the Rings again. They they really love Aoen, which I feel like >> I feel like I love Aoen, too, but like they got her so wrong, but whatever. So they talk about a woman's irreplaceable role and then actually in the version of the book that I got from the library, it was newer edition. So it they came back and like they had this extra chapter where they're reflecting on it like years later and >> does it stand up? >> Uh they think it does. Yeah. They answer the captivating questions. So interestingly one of the questions at the end of the book is what do you see as this generation's number one issue or struggle uh regarding women? And they're like, "Wow, the number one issue, would you like to guess what it is >> regarding women self-reliance?" I don't I don't know. Misogyny. They said the number one issue facing women is misogyny. Hatred of women is a global issue. It exhibits itself in various in a variety of ways including sexual abuse and exploitation. It's also prevalent in the diminishment of value of women and what they offer and have the propensity to offer. Subjugation of women in other nations to the point that women are refused in education is another example. The fight for dignity of women is an age-old fight, but we do think it is escalated to new levels in this hour. And it's like, hello. Hello. Wow. Subject is not aware. The problem is asking what the problem is. You know what I mean? Um, they talk about like, you know, men need women and, you know, it's all kind of like mommy stuff, you know? Uh let's see John asked about the stages of masculine journey. Can you describe the specific stages of the feminine journey and then they said these are the stages of a woman's life as they are meant to unfold. Beloved daughter >> I want to know where I am. >> Yeah. Okay. So beloved daughter you experiencing childhood freedom of childhood. Dreamer beginning to dream of possibilities. Dancer [laughter] tag tag yourself to get dancer actively exploring her unique gifting. lover, entering into the age of abandoning her heart on behalf of others. And then queen, learning to rule her domain and growing in healing and intimacy with Jesus by fully stepping into her calling. And then finally is Lady Wisdom before you die. >> I think I think I'm queen. [laughter] >> I think I'm queen. I think I >> I think I figured it out. Okay. >> Yeah. >> Dancer is hilarious. Dancer is hilarious. Basically, they've learned nothing. And I think also, look, sometimes when you reflect on books like this, it's hard and sad because like this book may have done something really helpful for someone at some point in life. And I think at the time I read it, this book probably did challenge my perception of femininity and it was beyond my capacity to understand. But now I've outgrown it. And so, you know, if [snorts] you're listening to this and this book meant a lot to you, I think my final reflection would be like, it's okay if it meant a lot to you and it did something good for you at the time that you read it. >> And um it's also okay to outgrow it. >> Yeah, >> that's what I think. >> Yeah, cuz just like you said that you guys had read Redeeming Love, I'm going to keep this thing going. The Cringe Book Club and Redeeming Love is definitely on the list. >> Oh, it's so rough, dude. >> H I'm nervous. And you know, but how you were saying if it meant something to you at the time and what's funny is I think that despite my new perspective obviously on purity culture and the toxicity in that book, it did mean a lot to me at the time because I thought I was such a from purity culture. I thought that I had sinned and I thought I was reading this book about how a woman can be redeemed. So, it meant a lot to me and gave me a lot of hope, but it's also like it's putting a band-aid on the problem that it's causing. >> You know what I mean? Like, yeah. It's the plug into the outlet. Yeah. >> Yes. Exactly. >> I think I'm like, >> but you know what it if it helped you at that point and like it was part of your journey to getting to where you are now. So, we can say thank you and we don't need you anymore. [snorts] >> So, thank you, Captivating. >> Cringe book club. >> Thank you, Captivating. This is our last use of you. And uh we're gonna Marie recondo you and uh let go of what's no longer serving us. >> Yes. And I'm not donating it because I don't want anyone to read >> anyone else to read it. >> And I'm going to return the audio book and get my credit back. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Oh my gosh. Well, thank you so much for reading this. Honestly, as I was halfway through this, I was like, I cannot believe that she is willing to read this with me. I really appreciate it. >> It was hard. It was hard. >> It was hard. Yeah, we we took a bit to do it. We took like >> I know and a half or something. >> I know. I didn't really start until this last week. So, >> I know. I need a deadline. >> All right. Well, [laughter] thank you for having me back. It's always fun to chat with you. >> Of course. >> Yes. It was so much fun. Um let me know what you guys think we should read for Cringe Book Club. Do you have any ideas, Abigail, off the top of your head? >> Oh gosh. Um when I was in high school, I I also read Passion and Purity. >> I've never read it. Okay, that was a big one, too. Um, >> The Bride Wore White. >> I don't know that one. >> I've heard of it. I've heard it's like the old school like that's the one that Joshua Harris read that I think his mom bought him. >> And you've had you've had uh Joshua Harris on Healish, right? >> I have. Yeah. Yeah. [gasps] >> Oh my gosh. So crazy. T. Well, yeah. Let me know what you guys want me to read next and I'll see if I can find somebody willing to read it and >> we will do our best. >> Yes, I'll be listening along. [laughter] >> Well, where can people find you and where can they listen to your podcast? >> Yes. Um, you can find me on Tik Tok, Fabio 11, on Instagram, Fabio Insta, and my podcast is the Redirect Podcast, Re A D, where we shift the conversation back to books. And relevant to this conversation, we had an episode a few months ago um where my co-host and I reread and recapped Redeeming Love by Francine Rivers and it was brutal. So, if you want a little bit more of that, you can go listen to that. >> So, >> absolutely, >> Jubilee. I think this is like my third or fourth time recording with you at this point or fifth if you include my podcast. So, it's fun. I always love doing it. [laughter] >> I know. Well, I mean, I'll probably ask you again, too, cuz I just love you and you're [laughter] the best. See you soon, too. >> All right. Bye, guys. >> With all of that being said, I will see you guys next week for another episode of Fieldish., Captivating: Cringe Book Club | Healed-Ish: Episode 92, Jubilee with Abigail (Healed-ish), 01m3m1fav5b06vvdf5k8bp357r.