Cover Up Culture Versus Exposure Culture  Hey everybody, welcome to the wonderful world of Remnant Radio. In this program, we're talking about two emerging cultures uh that have began to emerge in recent days. It's not as if it's brand new, but on one side, we've got the uh coverup culture uh that has begin to emerge and come into the spotlight. Maybe that's a better thing. It's it's been exposed. And then opposite to that of the coverup culture, we have seen that of exposure culture kind of running rampant. A lot of good, uh a lot of bad, uh as it's tied up all together. And in this program, we're going to be looking at the good and the bad of both. Kind of testing them up against the scriptures to see which are biblical uh and what ways they both uh need to be redeemed, care for uh and and trained. I'll be honest, cover up culture convert to the ground. But uh we partially need to identify uh the good and bad in both. So guys, it's going to be exciting program. You guys stay tuned. >> Round tree gave me a kind of confused look there for a second. We got a program. there's anything to redeem about cover up culture. >> Like I said, it definitely needs to be burned to the ground. Uh but uh I do think uh when I'm talking about both I I do think that there are uh definitely areas that exposure culture needs to grow and form whereas uh the coverup culture side of things uh man again burn to the ground. That's scorched earth is what we're looking for. >> Really we need a definition of terms so we're all talking about the same thing. >> Yeah, that's that's helpful. We we'll we'll we'll get into that here in a second. Uh quick announcement for you guys. Uh the ITSG introduction to spiritual gifts course has been opened uh over there at the remnant radio. So if you register for the newsletter, you get 20% off of that course. We've seen over a thousand students go through the program getting trained up uh in spiritual gifts. If you're out there and you're like, "Wait, trained up in spiritual gifts? That seems kind of uh gnarly. Kind of seems uh uh kind of maybe a little excessive when it comes to what the Bible says." What we do when we're training people on spiritual gifts is we're teaching them what the Bible says about spiritual gifts. And then we're asking God uh to speak to us, asking God to heal the sick, those kinds of things. I can't give you the gift of healing or give you the gift of prophecy. But if you're interested in learning about what those spiritual gifts are and then creating space for that, ITSG is a great course for you. We've got online videos that you watch online, you get homework, uh you break out into a live Q&A with myself, Michael Miller, or Michael Roundtree, and then you break out into small groups uh and you practice the stuff. So, uh, that's something you're interested in, check out the information over at the ruin.com under our courses. Uh, or you could also check out the, uh, information over at the newsletter and get 20% off that, uh, that course. So, Roundtree, uh, you want to, you want to tell us how you're doing over there in Oklahoma City before you tear me up for, uh, talking about coverup culture and how it can be redeemed? >> Yeah, I'm doing great cuz tonight I get to go on a date, uh, actually with my daughter. So, my daughter's 18, she's about to go to college. So treasuring every last minute and so she didn't really have time last week. I tend to take my daughters out for something related to Valentine's course my wife also but uh but yeah so going on a date tonight could do a little Italian dinner. So looking forward to that right after talking about exposure culture. So so uh fun times and beautiful day outside here in Oklahoma. So doing pretty well man. >> Yeah last couple days have been really nice. I get to hang out with Jonathan SB runs a ministry out of Thailand. uh rescuing young women from trafficking. Uh I say women, young men and and women for that matter. So he's a missionary. I get to come to my church and talk on Sunday. Uh but we spent the last couple days outside. It's been really really nice. So let's dive into subject matter today. Michael, we talk about cover culture, cover up culture. I know we don't have like working definitions for these things, but we're talking essentially about uh the the the process that's taking place in a lot of these very well-known large churches where an individual falls into sin. uh and they very quickly clamp down on that kind of activity with things like NDAs. They cut clamp down on that by uh labeling those who are whistleblowers as uh individuals who are accusers of the brethren. They are in opposition to God's will, etc., etc. Uh and there's a lot of imaging and messaging that goes out to the public that pretends to hide uh the severity of such claims. Uh we've seen in recent days uh ministries who have covered up uh things that would be considered clergy sexual abuse uh pretend to write them off as if there's no uh sexual abuse that actually took place but uh you know unwise decisions that have uh unpacked in in these individuals lives heavy-handed leadership etc etc and those things are kind of just glossed over. So uh in some sense that's what we're talking about when we're talking about coverup culture. Uh Roundry would you add anything to that definition there? >> Uh no I I mean I think it's good. But I think one of the big ones is uh just anointing and calling uh taking precedence over qualifications. And so uh I'm really thankful that there's been this renewed emphasis on the qualifications for spiritual leadership. 1 Timothy 3, Titus chapter 1, 1 Peter 5. And uh and so but a lot of times people will go to the Old Testament. They love to look to the kings and especially David. Oh, this man after God's own heart low-key committed murder and adultery. So, uh, we should have murderers and adulterers in our pulpits, and that's kind of how the argument goes. Uh, but really, uh, the truth is we do need to wrestle with some texts for, for instance, like, uh, King David repeatedly, despite being under an incredibly narcissistic leader, continually submits and continually honors him and so on. And how does that play into I mean that's Old Testament, that's monarchy, but I do think we need to discuss how does that play into modern day and church structures because there are some in within coverup culture who take that as almost like permission. Man, I saw this on uh Ron Caner's podcast recently. He was showing this clip of Rick Joiner and Rick Joiner was talking about all these sexual sexually deviant pastoral leaders and he just says, "You know what? We're gonna just need to get used to it because this is what pe this is what men do. And I loved that Ron Caner said, "No, Rick, I'm not gonna get used to that. This is not what men do." Like, not normal men. They don't they don't like uh spiritually abuse and groom people and use prophecies and all this kind of thing to get women in bed with them. That's not normal behavior and we shouldn't excuse it. And this whole idea of like boys will be boys is insane. So, uh, so I do think though, Josh, we do we need to wrestle with the text with David a little bit. I don't know if you want to do that now or we can do it later. >> Well, let me give people an outline of the show a little bit because I think that's a good subject matter. I think on the other end of our definition for coverup culture on the other side, we're talking about exposure culture and how exposure exposure culture views these same kinds of subjects. I think exposure culture uh, as you know, we we think is good in general. Um I I think that the guys over at the minor prophets, Mike Winger, and many others that are out there doing I think the Lord's work in showing, hey, these guys um are disqualified. These guys are causing pain in the body of Christ. I think that's a generally net positive thing for the body of Christ. While simultaneously, there are others online, and I'm not mentioning anyone in particular, uh where they're using exposure culture, uh in a way that's not redemptive. It's not uh helpful to the body of Christ. Uh and I think that we need to be careful because as we are going through this season of purification of the body of Christ and I'm thankful for it. I think the Lord's actually doing this work of cleansing house. Uh while he's doing so, there are bad actors who are using exposure culture to kind of rise to the top uh as it as it were to be these bastions of theology and my morality is greater than everyone else's. And because of these things uh man, they profit off of this. There's um man, a lot of a lot of uh poop in the brownie is the only thing that's coming to mind. There there's there's a whole there a whole lot of bad with the good. It is one of my my go-tos. Uh so uh in this program, we're going to kind of walk through uh how we view leadership, how both uh spaces, the coverup culture and the exposure culture culture views leadership in uh the church. We're going to talk about how they view the body of Christ. Uh the the positives and and negatives of some of those things. And we're also going to be talking about how they view discipline. Now, as we go through the show notes for today, I know I keep saying the positives and negatives. I'm really talking about the positives and negatives of exposure culture. Uh, again, net positive. I I think this activity that's taking place online is actually good. But I do think we need to be careful about how it's actually being practiced and what we're training people that are watching our content how to think soberly about these issues. because I do think there are um I've already seen uh a few negative reactions of of these sorts of things and we're going to we're going to dive into it here in a moment. Um yeah, Michael, let's start off with leadership. Let's talk about coverup culture, exposure culture, how they're viewing leadership. You mentioned King David as an example. There's a really well-known book, Tale of Three Kings, >> that was popularized uh for a long time. I read it in Bible school, and uh that was one of the books. It was to say, "Hey, look, uh, this guy is under the heavy-handed leadership of King Saul, and he seems to submit to this, and the Bible seems to record, uh, this kind of heavy-handed leadership and submission to it as a good thing because he's not usurping the throne." Um, I think there's a whole lot of context pieces in there that that inform that. Uh, but I I'll toss it over to you. That's it's a good way to start as we talk about uh, leadership. >> Yeah. Yeah. I read the tale of of three kings back in the day, and it's kind of one of those things where if you're a leader uh in a charismatic church, it's almost like uh especially if you're not the senior leader, it's almost like a go-to book of that people give you like, "Oh, you should read this. Oh, you're having problems with your leaders. You should just read this book." And and and the book is basically just always submit and always just shut your mouth and always be quiet. And um and so I I don't like that. So here here's why. I don't think it I don't think it carries over into ecclesial structures. So I mentioned at the top of the show, Israel was a monarchy. And what the author of 1 Samuel is trying to show with David's continual submission is that David isn't a usurper. He's not one of those people who, like so many other kings through Israel's history, oftent times somebody gets murdered in order for somebody else to get to the throne. and and it's trying to show that David is trusting God's hand in leadership rather than trying to usurp the throne for himself. And so my experience, people who have grievances against senior leaders, it's not because they want to be a senior leader, it's because they have grievances against a senior leader. Like so it's not not really it doesn't map that way. Uh not everybody who exposes somebody is trying to take their place. Do you think Mike Winger wants to be the next senior pastor of Bethl Church? Like this is not a parallel. This it doesn't fit. Uh number one, but but number two, is Israel was a monarchy. And so a monarchy is different from a church. A church is to be led by shepherds. And um and a monarchy was led by kings. And and I think it actually reflects something of how we so often view spiritual leadership. We view it like we're kings. And that's not okay. That's not good. We're not, you know, Samuel warned the people, "Hey, you got a king. He's going to be all over you and he's going to be requiring a whole lot of you. He gonna be taxing you. He's going to send you to war. He's going to be oppressing you. It's going to be really bad." And people are like, "Ah, we want a king anyway." You know? So, uh, so I I see this like as we carry it over into church culture, when church leaders view themselves as kings, it's a really bad thing. Now, of course, I will say God's intention was for kings in Israel to operate like shepherds. You see that in Psalm 78. uh uh about David. But uh anyway, I I feel as though this application excuses narcissistic and abusive behavior and requires people to sit down and shut up, which means that it just keeps happening. That is not the way. So, uh anyway, so those are a few thoughts on it. What do you think? >> I I'll weigh in on that same idea. You know, Michael mentioned at the top of the show, cover-up culture views leadership as the anointed representative for God. And that's a reductionistic view because the body of Christ at large are the people of God representing God in the earth. It's no longer reserved um for prophets, priests, and kings as God's viceroys, as God's representatives, as God's point person. Uh certainly uh the people who are in those leadership positions are to operate with a standard of conduct and character and ethic uh where you're going to find a pretty strong uniqueness with David and Solomon and the other kings u of Judah uh who would fall into immorality. Why does God allow them to stay in that office? A a really strong uh redemptive history arc that's important for us to realize is that the son of David would come from the line of David. There was a messianic promise to the kingly reign and the kingly line that through their offspring there would be a descendant who would rule on the throne of David. Uh so if you remove David, you remove his prodigy. If Solomon gets into power and God strikes Solomon dead for all of the uh sexual immorality and sacrifices to idols, well, you also have the line of the kings being ended in that. Now, you could say, well, he could have killed these guys in their later days. Sure, fine. That's true. Uh but I think that we also have to realize that God is using this fallen family to birth the son of God uh the the ruler of Israel. And I think that when we look at the the narrative arc of Christ coming into the world, that is part of why these kingly offices are are staying in power uh and and not to be taken as okay, well now we're going to read all these stories of these kings and these moral failures here into the New Testament uh positions. And what we're doing is we're taking Old Testament shadows and reading them over New Testament prescriptions. The New Testament is very clear about our elders and our leaders and our deacons in our church. They're qualified on the grounds not of anointing and calling, but on the grounds of character. Uh now that all that being said, all things being equal, the church is to recognize the calling of an individual saying, "Hey, I I feel like God has called you to X, Y, and Z." It's not a personal, you know, I feel led to X, Y, and Z. It is really on behalf of the church to identify those gifts to uh identify those leadings and then to uh empower said individuals who have the appropriate character qualifications. Um another thing that happens in coverup culture when it when they view uh leadership, it's not only uh viewing these guys as God's representatives, but it's also this anointing over character. Uh and and this is again a a serious problem that's taking place in cover-up culture. You don't even have to go to the hyper charismatic side of things. Uh you can go to man uh these guys are changing the world with their music uh over at Hillsong. They're not I mean they're they're continuous but they're not overtly charismatic in all of their meetings. Uh you've got these guys oh they're great leadership gifts and oh they're doing all this great stuff with the poor and we can look past uh all of the character flaws these individuals have because of the fruit and byproduct of their ministry. And that is really at its base level an appeal to things like pragmatism because it works. we've got to keep doing it because these guys are doing good things. We can't remove these individuals because we're looking at the fruit of uh what they can produce and not necessarily the fruit of their character in their lives. So, uh I I think that when you look at coverup culture, uh it starts off with a vision of leadership uh that frankly uh is is unbiblical. And because of that, you you have the the downfall of these kinds of coverup cultures beginning to be exposed over and over because they're not building their foundation on Christ. Um the final Go ahead, Randrey. I'll pass it over to you. >> Oh. Oh, I was going to say like that whole argumentation of look at the fruit and look how much we're growing and look at all the salvations and all of this. It becomes a reason for why coverup culture says, "Hey, we don't need to talk about these other things." But their argument actually works against itself because look at the fruit should not just mean the church is growing. Look at the fruit should mean how is it affecting people? Are people getting more and more wounded? Is there a trail of dead bodies behind you? uh are are people getting crushed uh or are they being made more whole, which is actually what the body of Christ is supposed to do. So, if we want to properly do a fruit inspection, we can't just look at how many people got saved from the pastor's sermon and how big the churches got. No, we actually have to look at how people's lives are being affected. And if people are having to go to counseling and therapy in mass because of your senior pastor or your senior leadership, well, then that actually is a problem. And uh and so I I think it's a a false sort of uh claim of of exposure culture. Well, but look at the fruit. Well, let's look at all the fruit then is what I would want to say. >> That's right. >> Yeah. I I think you were going to talk about church mission and vision a little bit. >> Yeah. I was just going to say like the final thing that I would say that that is very common in coverup culture when it comes to their vision of leadership is that the the leader is intrinsically woven into the mission and vision of the church. And it part of this give me grace here cuz I know many of you guys have mission statements and vision statements in your church. But but so many churches are trying to be so unique to um stand out against all the other churches in their city. So they they try to create these really clever missions and vision statements and and often times they they can actually be contrary to the vision and mission statement of of Jesus. The great commandment and the great commission. These are the vision statement and mission statement for the entire church. And so many people come on the scene uh I think of like the upper room and they're saying like well we want to be the the tip of the spear when it comes to uh leading houses uh the house of prayer in in the church of God and and we're bringing back the tabernacle of David. And it's like well that's not the mission and the vision of the church set by Jesus. So what you're doing is something else. It's not the church. And I'm not saying that they're not Christians or any of that. I I what I'm aiming at is saying that we've so intrinsically tied up the vision statement and mission statement onto some leaders kind of uh own ambition, their own kind of hope of what they're going to achieve. And when that leader ends up falling, it's so intrinsically tied up into this mission and vision because he's the guy that was going to get us there that they keep the guy in power in order to get them there because they don't believe anyone else can do it because it comes from their core values, not the core values of the body of Christ at large. So, uh I think that both of those two things, the mission vision statement tied up into that leader um is is a I mean a recipe for disaster. Um, I would hope that the mission and vision of your church and my church for all those of you who are watching says that when that lead guy got hit by a bus and doesn't come to church on Sunday, your church can still operate because they don't have this celebrity culture that has terminated the entire church's value system on that individual. Uh, granted, I understand there are a lot of churches that have uh not a ton of resources. They're a small community uh and those pastors do a lot of the heavy heavy lifting of ministry day-to-day. So you say that with some caveats, but the hope would be that the church can still function without your lead guy. That would be the the aim. >> Yeah. Yeah. But the the connection there to cover up culture is that so much is relying on this guy that we've got to cover up for his failures so that uh because if he falls, the whole thing falls apart. And so I think that's what I hear you saying there. Is that right, Josh? >> Yeah. Okay. Uh well, should we talk about uh what we're calling exposure culture now? and uh with all the qualifications that uh that exposure culture it's actually a good thing if what we mean by exposure culture is obeying Ephesians 5:11 which says do not participate in the works of darkness but instead expose them. It's a section of Ephesians chapter 5 where apostle the apostle Paul is talking about how we are light and children of light and what does light do? Well, it exposes and we tend to think of light you know there's the Jesus will say you're the light of the world in Matthew chapter 5 and there he's talking about let your light shine before men so that they may see your good deeds and glorify your father in heaven. That is one function of light. it shines outward and in that context Jesus is connecting it more to just our good works and letting people see that uh the way God has transformed our lives. Uh but Paul is using it differently in Ephesians 5 and 5 5:11 and uh and coverup culture is is literally saying don't expose. That's sinful. That's bad. And I'm saying read the Bible. Ephesians 5:11 says we must expose. We're obligated to expose. And so if that's all we mean by exposure culture is obeying Ephesians 5:11, then then man, it's great. But the way we're using the phrase exposure culture here is we're using it in the sense of like there can be ways in which it goes over the top. And uh what do we mean by that? Well, there can develop a sort of mob and pitchfork mentality where we're not really looking at the facts of the case nor waiting for the facts of the case. uh we're just like I'm gonna dogpile somebody and and so I do think that happens and I do think we have to be careful and we do want to make sure you know like 1 Timothy 5 is often quoted in the context of exposure uh exposing leaders and I think it's a great verse. It talks about um it talks about rebuking sinning elders publicly, but it also does provide quoting Deuteronomy 19, it does say provided there's evidence on the account of two or three witnesses. It says, and so uh and so Paul's not just saying like, hey, anytime you have a hunch that there's a leader in sin, you need to start a podcast and start talking about how sinful that leader is. And so that's where we're talking about. So like there's a holy form of exposure which says there's evidence here. This evidence has been addressed with this person. They're not doing anything. They're not repentant. And what Paul's language is in 1 Timothy 5, if they don't repent, he says, rebuke them publicly in the presence of all so that the others may take warning. And so we want to avoid no longer being a people that looks to evidence. Now, even in saying that, like, man, Josh, there there's so many I've seen that be abused. Like, I'm just thinking about like, you know, Michael Brown when he was had some role in the IHOP case and it was just like, let the investigation play out. Let it all play out. And I'm like, multiple women have come forward and said they have been sexually and spiritually abused by Mike Bickl. How many witnesses do we need? You know, there are some people that they need so much evidence, it's as if they need to watch the act happen in person for them to be willing to call somebody out. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that we should so slow roll this that that unless it happens right before our face that we don't say anything. I am saying we need to actually have evidence. And uh and I think in a culture, an exposure culture, you know, we've we've taken on these terms such as abuse and gaslighting and those are really helpful terms properly defined. But if every time anyone does anything that's slightly bad and we call it gaslighting and we call it abuse, if we do that every single time and we don't actually have evidence, we're just spouting it before the world, I don't think we're really following biblical protocol. And so, you know, here we always talk about calling balls and strikes and I it's like I I find myself in my heart so much more resonating with the exposure side of things because I detest despise with everything in my soul coverup culture. But I think there is this human tendency to swing the pendulum and to go from coverup culture to I don't need any evidence, just a hunch and a rumor and I'm going to spout it to the whole internet. And that's not good either. I'm saying let's just do it like the Bible says. It says if there's two or three witnesses then you go public. So I I don't know. I've said a few things. You want to talk about that a little bit? >> A little bit. >> Yeah. We'll get into a little bit to mob justice and terminology, you know, in the discipline section of this. So, I think Michael kind of touched on some of that, but we're going to unpack a little bit more of that later on in the program. U as as it relates to exposure culture, I'm I am concerned that the way that we may participate and practice in this cuz the the act of exposing bad stuff, good. Um what does that then teach folks on the back end? And I'm I'm inclined to think that Paul is writing to Timothy in 1 Timothy and says, you know, those who desire that position or the office of an overseer, they desire a good thing. Ephesians um I think it's chapter uh 3:1 Timothy 3:1. And I think he's likely saying that because the leadership office in Ephesus had been under disrepute um because of immoral leaders, unqualified leaders, etc. And I think that 1 Timothy 3 is written as much as it is to say, "Hey, the new leaders you put in place, make sure they have character, make sure they have good doctrine, make sure they can teach, make sure these things are important." Uh, but also to disqualify individuals that may still be there. And I think the reason he is telling his church in Ephesus, hey guys, uh, those who desire this role, desire a good thing is because it had been fallen in such disrepute that the assumption that leaders are just bad. And I I think that we live in a day uh in particular that has been so affected by Marxist ideology that power dynamics then inform us on what is good and what is evil. Those with power are therefore evil and those without power are therefore good. And we set up the proletariat and the bourgeoisi and we've got to just burn the whole thing to the ground so those who are oppressed can take over and have power. And uh I'm concerned that we are kind of falling into the ideologies of the world or we could fall into the ideologies of the world and just assume all church leaders are bad. Um and I do think that Paul is writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit saying good and godly elders are good and godly things. And I think there's a danger with exposure culture that we take a message that's not being said from a lot of individuals. Like I I don't think uh the John Mark Bakers, the Steven Kosars, I don't think that the Mike Wingers of the world are saying all leaders are bad. However, I'm I'm curious if the masses who are watching this kind of content begin to mix in a little bit of Marxist ideology in their thinking and suddenly poof, we've got a whole bunch of independent house churches with no leadership, no biblical structure, no biblical model, just kind of trying to figure out stuff because they don't want to get hurt by the big church. And I'll tell you, there's as much pain taking place in house churches as there is in big churches because the problem is not a leadership structure. The problem is sin and all of God's people are marred by it. Um, so I I think that that's an important side note is to say that there is a a kind of warning that I'm seeing on the horizon as it relates to exposure culture. I don't think that we see the full brunt of it at this moment, but I do see it on the horizon. Another thing on uh cover-up culture is just the flattening of responsibility. Um uh you know I think that we have looked at these big leaders um and we've just said hey look you know Mike Winger's is a really bad dude. Uh Mike Winger Mike Mike Mike Bickle is a really bad dude. Sorry Mike I didn't mean it. >> Jeez, dude. >> Uh Mike Mike Bickl I meant it to you. I didn't mean it to Winger. I just got too many mics in my life. um you know uh the the the guys over at Bethl you know what they were doing like that's bad but but we also have to realize that we have a a community of people who've lifted these individuals up and every time there is an abuse story um I think often times there are individuals who are getting the brunt of it and and in some sense that's probably good but we also have to realize that there are boards uh in place at these at these institutions there are uh individuals who have such a craving for the charisma. They have such a craving for the demonstration of power that they're willing to be hoodwinkedked into a Shawn BS being the prophet for the hour. Uh I think that we actually have to kind of examine our own desires to lift up teachers for ourselves who will tickle our ears and make us feel like we're a part of a big movement. There's actually moral capability on a lot of sides. That is not to say that a Mike Bickl is as equally morally culpable as the individual who wanted to be a part of something great. Not saying that at all. However, we need to get out of this mindset of uh there's one really really bad guy and they're at the top. Actually, there's probably a system in place that has allowed this to fester and we need to kind of uh you know, if if Beth what Bethl is saying is true, this is a good thing. They're re-evaluating everything that they're doing. How could this have even happened? How have we built a culture that would even allow this kind of event to take place? And if that's true, if they're really doing that, they're doing the Lord's work. And and I think that's extremely important. R, you got any thoughts on any of that monologue? >> Yeah, I mean, just a few things. While while you were talking, I was thinking about the the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast that man, I thought it started out awesome and then it it dragged on and on and on. It started to feel to me more like failure porn of just like I I want to just swim in all the failures of Mark Driscoll. It was well established that he was severely abusive and severely disqualified from leadership. We could have seen that in a few episodes, but it it just felt it felt like too much to me. Uh it felt like a dog pile. And um another thing that I thought about and I don't know, you may not agree with me, Josh, but that was my thought while I was listening to it. I can't remember how long it went on. I was like, how many more episodes could we have? Um, and so I I am against exposure as a form of promoting ourselves, you know, and uh I I think that's really bad. Uh, of course that's a motive of the heart and it's hard to know like you can't really tell from watching someone's podcast if that's the motive in their heart, but I think every podcaster has to be aware of it and be very careful of it. Um, another thing that I was thinking about while you were talking was, uh, man, I have so much grace for, uh, for sheep, if you will, for God's people who have been severely wounded by shepherds and struggle to trust church leaders. Again, lots of grace for that. I think that's what Jesus dealt with. It says that he looked out and he saw that people were harassed and helpless like sheep without a shepherd. Matthew chapter 9. And uh, and so what did he do? He raised up good shepherds. First of all, he said pray for laborers in the harvest. And then he sent his disciples out into the harvest. Uh and so the solution is not no shepherds, it's good shepherds. And I think that's what we're trying to say. And and so we we don't want to have such a view that we uh that we denigrate pastors altogether and then nobody wants to be a pastor anymore. It's sort of like what happened with uh with cops back in like 2020 when everyone's like cops are bad, you know, end the police and all of this. I mean, it was an extreme thing to say like end the police like I don't know. I kind of think we need some law enforcement. Uh but end bad policing. And I think what happens so to take to stick with a political uh analogy for a moment whether it's police back in 2020 whether it's ICE today what I find is that it's very difficult for people to actually say watch a video and make a decision based on facts that they tend to just watch that video uh through the lens of their own kind of experience and particularly their political viewpoints and and just we're just trying to say let's call balls and strikes like You could be uh very much a conservative and watch a particular video and say, "Yeah, actually that was an abuse of power." Uh or it could go the other way. I I'm just saying I think we get really locked in. We have to be careful to call balls and strikes. And for pastors, I just want to encourage you. We need you. Uh it is 1 Timothy 3, it is an esteemed role. We need good pastors. And um and the other verse that I always think of when I think of sheep who are hurting is Matthew chapter 12 uh when it says it's one of my favorite verses about Jesus ministry. It's a quote from Isaiah, but it says a bruised reed he will not break and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. This is a season where requires a lot of patience for pastors because sheep trust you less. They just do. And uh and you can't get into this. Well, it's all their fault and all like you just you love and then you show through consistency and character and being there for them like earn their trust. Just do your best. It's it's hard but we need good shepherds in this uh in this hour. And I and I just want to encourage those who aren't shepherds uh not not to give up on the sheep. We or on the church. We actually we need each other. We need the church. Most pastors aren't horrible people. And uh and so I do get concerned that the burn it all down mentality. I don't think it's a holy mentality. I want to burn down cover up culture. I want to burn down disqualified leadership. Uh not not like physically. Anyway, it's metaphor. Okay. I I want to burn all that down. But uh I also want to call balls and strikes. I don't want to be a mob. and uh and I want to honor leadership where it's due. So those are a few thoughts. >> Yeah. Let me let me push to our next subject cuz we're already 30 minutes in and and maybe we'll jump to discipline quickly. But uh talking about coverup culture uh as they view people as they view individuals and how exposure culture views views people in these uh scenarios and I say people as in just congregants, people who don't have leadership positions. I think coverup culture extremely poorly uh uh views their congregants. They often view them as too fragile to handle the truth. Uh there is an assumption that there is a spiritual discernment amongst the leadership that cannot be carried uh among the people. Uh that is a view that to me rings of Roman Catholicism that only the priests can understand the scriptures and the ley can't really understand them and they need the magisterium to interpret it for them. Well, the same seems to be true of uh church discipline issues where man, they can't handle this. We're going to try to handle it quietly, even though this person might have a public ministry. And and I say this um not to further kick uh a brother when while they're down, not to further shame people that are trying to get their act together, but just as an observation that no one will say this outright. Um but you'll notice with Bethl, they were okay with telling their ministry leaders. They were okay with telling networks they were close to. Uh but they didn't tell their own congregation. And Shawn BS was still out there doing ministry and they had platformed this guy. Now, they're trying to own that and and I hope that they continue and bearing fruit with repentance as it relates to that activity. So, again, not trying to kick them while they're down. But what we're what we're telling people is that man, you guys are too fragile for the truth. And again, what that does is it takes pragmatism. It takes this idea that like, well, this works, so let's do it. And it lifts it over what the scriptures actually command us. Uh the scriptures command us in Ephesians 4:15 to expose the deeds that are done darkness. Matthew 18:16-17 says, "If they won't listen to you as you plead for them to repent, you go tell it before the church." Uh 1 Timothy 5:20 tells us that if a if an elder or this leader in the church continues to uh act in sin and they they won't repent of their sin, that you are to publicly rebuke them before all so that the rest stand in fear. So I think when we treat congregants as too fragile for handing the truth or for handling the truth, what we're doing is we're creating this system that says, man, these leaders um they're they're really valuable and I can't let their ministry be marred by this false teacher. But these other people over here, they're actually really expendable. Um if their lives are destroyed because of prophetic words or because they've been groomed, etc., etc., their their their lives are just not as important. So it does two things. one, they can't handle this discernment, and two, they're just not as important as the rest of us. And cover-up culture has a pattern of doing this kind of activity. Uh, and again, we need to mark and avoid that kind of thing. We also need to take kind of inventory of our heart. And if we're treating our churches this way, uh, we need to be discerning and say, well, I can't allow my my pragmatism, what I think this will do to the church to reign over what I'm commanded to do in the church. um because it will have the effect that you know Samuel told the the children of Israel, you get a king, you're going to have some bad results and we well that doesn't matter. We want it anyway and we've lifted up this kind of leadership structure, this kind of form of pragmatism and it's ruling over us and it's enslaving the people and it's robbing us of our freedoms and liberties in Christ. So, um yeah, Roundry, thoughts on that. >> Yeah, that's good. Well, makes me think of just the religious leaders when it says, I think it's in John chapter 8, when it said uh when they referred to the people as cursed rabbel who do not know the law. And and I think that's exactly what you're talking about with uh with cover up culture and congregants are just expendable. I'm thinking of uh I I'm thinking of a church situation I know of where uh church people were told, "Hey, if you don't like this decision, just go find another church." And and I'm just like, what kind of shepherd says that? like, "Yeah, just go find another flock." And and you know, they had made a a hard decision and it was a decision that created a lot of division and it and it was just like, "Yeah, just just go somewhere else." And I I think it's like congregants are expendable, but man, last I checked, a shepherd was supposed to lay his life down for the sheep. And so I think that's all baked into the um the framework of of coverup culture because I think it's uh you know you guys are expendable. We're going to protect our decisions, our image, our brand, and everything else is sacrificed on that altar. And so it's like, man, we want to see shepherds who are laying it down not for the brand, but for the sheep. And uh and so yeah, I couldn't agree with you more, Josh. Should we talk a little bit about uh exposure culture on the other side as it comes to how they view the church? >> Yeah. Uh if you want to, we can punch back and forth. We've still got the whistleblower line and the uh out of line congregants viewed as uh threats to that stability. And we can we can tackle that. If you want to hop over to exposure whistleblower, because this is a big one, calling like how many people are going to call their church members the devil, accuser of the brethren. And man, I get sick of this. And you know, in charismatic culture, there's a spirit of everything. You know, there's a spirit of this, spirit of that. Uh spirit of accusation. I'm so sick of it. Uh like that's what's, you know, anytime somebody has a criticism, well, you just have the spirit of accusation. And and I'm just like, no, actually, they just have a criticism and you should respond to their criticism. And you and you are aligning that person with the devil, especially when you call them accusers of the brethren. That's a huge deal. And so what we see consistency consistently within cover-up culture is a low view of the sheep. Do you want to talk about that next one, Josh? >> Well, I would just say, yeah, just uh right on top of this idea that every whistleblower, every victim is some kind of accuser of the brethren. There is an attempt in coverup culture to not hear those statements, not to to try to investigate those things carefully, uh, but to label people as bitter, uh, as wounded, as critical, as offended, as influenced by the enemy. And again, you can take your pick, but this is a litany, uh, of of statements that come out from the cover-up culture side of things when it comes to people that are out of line. But if you already have a view of individuals that they're expendable, if you already have a view that they can't discern things rightly, well, you're going to naturally come to the conclusion that people who do not have power in the institution that are coming against the institution are under the influence of demonic forces. You're going to believe that they are they've been deceived and they're bitter because you have all the discernment in that community. So, I think it's a natural byproduct of those things. But, uh I think that if you're in a community, uh you need to ask why are they okay? Um, if you were, imagine you were uh abused, and I mean high-handed abuse, okay? Some kind of essay sort of activity is taking place, and you come out of this church, you're horrified, you're mortified, you spend 3 years in in in therapy, you finally build up the courage to start speaking out against someone, don't you think you're going to be a little bitter? Don't you think you're going to be a little offended? Uh, no dip. Like, I I don't know what to tell you. Like, duh. uh yes, they're going to be bitter and offended because something absolutely horrible and heinous took place in their life and you stood by and let it happen and when they vocalized it, they were labeled, you know, a devil. Uh yes, they're going to be bitter. But just because someone's bitter doesn't mean something's not true. So when someone in your church is, oh that person's bitter, okay, what are the truth claims they're making? Are they true or false? I I don't care if someone's bitter. I care if they're speaking truth. Um because at the end of the day, I'm going to say things. Um there there was a guy who's been emailing me and Michael and Mike Winger recently. Uh a guy who's been busted for, you know, prophesying things falsely. And uh yeah, I've been saying true things to him in emails. Uh but I'm starting to get to the point where I'm a little angry about it. And yeah, maybe I'm not handling it absolutely perfectly, but I'm going to say the true thing. Uh and I think that that reigns over all the other things. >> Handled it fine so far. >> I appreciate that. Thank you. you get out of line. Yeah. But that that's >> I'm feeling it, Michael. I'm losing it. >> But exposure culture always focus like instead of focusing on the sin that they're actually being accused of, it's always but you didn't do the process right. You didn't follow these neat prescribed steps. And I I agree there are some steps, you know, go to Matthew 18, you go to 1 Timothy 5, there are some steps involved. Uh but the problem is usually when it comes to uh to these kinds of situations, those steps have been tried and failed miserably. And man, I just wanted to I I kept saying thank you whenever you were like the whole bitter and wounded thing because I hear that thing so much. Well, you're just bitter and wounded. uh like not necessarily to me, but I just hear that said to anyone who is commenting on coverup culture and all you're doing is you are castigating the person who has a charge to discredit their claim. All that matters is is they said true or false. You have shown an inability to call balls and strikes. All you can do is denigrate the witness and not take anything to say into account. And what if they are bitter and wounded? Okay. Well, maybe they were egregiously sinned against. And and also, we shouldn't expect a desire and passion for holiness to be a cold, emotionless, intellectual affair. I mean, look at Phineas. When there's sin in the camp, he goes and he takes a spear and takes him out and and God says to him like, "Hey, dude, that's awesome because you were jealous with my jealousy." Like what if these whistleblowers have a jealousy for the Lord's church and and what if the problem is that you actually don't and you want us to to sit here all prim and proper and and say, "Hey, maybe you shouldn't abuse people." And I'm like, "No." Like maybe you should have a little bit of a prophetic edge to you. Do you think Jesus when he flipped tables over was like, "Hey, can you remove the things on that table so I can kindly flip it over?" No. Like being a prophet of the Lord is not being Ned Flanders. Like maybe you should have a little edge. Jesus had edge. Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You sons of hell. You travel over land and sea to make a single convert. And yet you make them twice as much a son of hell as you are. You dead men's bones. Uh you know, whiteers full of Yeah. Dead men's bones. >> All this stuff. >> He called Herod a fox. Like Jesus did all of those things. But coverup culture reads the Bible selectively and and and they're like, "Oh, but Matthew 18, but this process and and hey, I I'm a big fan of Matthew 18. I think it's awesome, but you're hiding behind it because you're hiding your sin." And when Matthew 18 has already been followed and addressed and addressed and addressed and addressed, you continue to hide behind protocol when people are calling you out and you won't respond to it. Instead, you just call them bitter and wounded. They're bitter and wounded because of your egregious sin. >> Yeah. >> Sorry. >> Yeah. No, that's that's great. That's great. And I think on the flip side, if I if I can, you know, shift gears ever so slightly and talk about exposure culture as it relates to the same subject. How does exposure culture view people? I am concerned that we can move in this direction. I think that guys like Mike Winger are setting a really good precedent for how we care for people, how we care for victims. Um, I'm not seeing a whole lot of this right now, but I am concerned that the the ministry of exposure can be I really want these people to come and tell me stuff so that I can say, "Look how bad it's always been. I knew it was true. I was right. These people are bad guys." And we're using victims to promote the the exposure itself rather than caring for the victim themselves. In the midst of coverup culture, imagine you've been in a culture where you've been, you know, abused, taken advantage of, uh, viewed as viewed as if you can't handle the truth. When you come out and you come forward, you know, you're a demon. You know, you you're bitter, you're angry. And then you go to exposure culture people. And the exposure culture people, all they want to do is get your story so they can tell the world how bad this church is or how bad that leader is. And they don't actually care for the individual. They're just a cog in both machines. Uh I think what Mike does by offering many of these people counseling, trying to care for them, trying to pay for um you know, third party investigations, he he's really putting his money where his mouth is. And uh I don't know how we can do that as a whole. But I do think that part of exposure culture that we need to be careful of is not to treat people as cogs because they've been treated as cogs up until this point. Another area that I'm concerned about as it relates to coverup culture is is victim status. Um, I'm concerned that we can elevate individuals in the same way that coverup culture wants to elevate people because of gifting. Um, I'm I'm concerned that cover uh that exposure culture is elevating individuals not based on character and doctrine, but is basing is elevating them based alone on victim status. Um, because we all want to gather around someone who's been hurt and wounded. And I do think that there is a good and godly desire to see these people healed and to build up and to see them restored. Um but you know I'm thinking of my friend um Steven Bangars. Steven uh came from the new age into Christianity and in the new age he was making I think he said it was like $50,000 a month being a new age guru teacher. converted to Christianity, started doing apologetic works on uh the new age and became instant stardom because it was like, "Hey, here's a guy who used to be in this lifestyle and now he's in this lifestyle and he's like living for Jesus and he's he's really tearing it up." You look at look at an example Christian he was. And 3 years into it, he felt really convicted and he's like, I went straight to essentially what is an elder. I I went to an online influencer and I haven't had any life in practice as like a faithful Christian being discipled in my local church and he stepped out of the spotlight and just got discipled. There's not a onetoone correlation. However, um I'm I'm concerned what could happen in these spaces where um victim status is viewed as uh a kind of a badge of honor and people begin to claim um things happen to them. We're going to talk about this in the exposure culture section when it comes to discipline. I was abused, you know, I I was spiritually abused and when you go and you talk to that person, it sounds like they were told no. Um, you know, I was I I I experienced clergy sexual abuse. Um, you know, you fell into sin with a home group leader. Um, you committed adultery. I I don't know if that's clergy sexual abuse. Um, you know, hey, uh, I I I got into an argument. I was gaslit. A disagreement is not gaslighting, right? And and we begin to use certain language to receive status within our community. I'm concerned about that. Um I've seen that begin to creep up. That that is something I'm I am not only something that I there's some of the stuff I can see on the horizon. I'm like, "Oo, I I wonder about that." But but this is something that I'm seeing where people are claiming uh that they are victims because it gives them some kind of importance and status. This is not a anti-listen to victims. This is not a hey uh uh you know don't listen to the whistleblower. This is me saying hey thank you so much for sharing that. Let's get you the care that you need. Um but but also um we we need to be sensitive about what this does to the human psyche when they get all of this attention overnight. Um I think it's something that we need to be careful of. Michael, do you want to weigh into any of that at all? Yeah, it's it's a tough one because I you know I do see like if you look at Jesus's ministry, who did he so routinely side with? He sided with the victims. He sided with the oppressed and all of this. And so uh you know, as a shepherd, I'm always going to lean in on that. And uh and yet at the same time, uh I think we have to be aware that exactly what you described happens. and uh and there is a power that comes over somebody to claim victim status. And the word victim, you know, it's like when I read one of Bethl's like there the fact that they acknowledged v victims existed in their big public apology a couple of weeks ago. I'm glad they said there were victims, you know, cuz I I think that people can can sometimes not want to use that word, especially when they're in power like that. They don't want to acknowledge that they're victims of their own ministry and cover up. Um but and so I was glad they used the word and yet I do think that um if everybody is a victim then it actually downplays the stories of the real victims. And if every sin is abuse then it downplays cases of real abuse. And I think one of the things that we have to acknowledge is that there is something like a scale of abuse and there are more severe kinds than others. I mean even legally they recognize this like oh we had a weapon okay so this was extra bad. It's always bad, but it's extra bad. He had a weapon. You know, uh there is a scale of abuse. You know, I think like Mike Bickl using prophecy to say his wife's going to die and you're going to be in the chariot with me. That increases the scale. When there's an age difference, when there's clergy and power, like all of those things add to the layers in the scale. But like, you know, you mentioned a home group leader who somebody sleeps with and they want to call it clergy sexual abuse. And you know, could you say there's a power differential? I mean, home group leader, I mean, but like we just have to acknowledge there is a there is a scale and uh and I think that's part of calling balls and strikes and and and and so we want to lean into there are real victims, Jesus's ministry, especially focused on the oppressed. And so I think any pastoral ministry uh should really be pressing into that and trying to hear deeply and listen deeply and minister to those hurts. Uh and at the same time we have to acknowledge that there are people trying to grab power by using the words abuse where abuse wasn't present. Gaslighting where gaslighting didn't exist. uh victim where they actually weren't a victim but maybe uh actually at least you know some level of culpable and so we we just have to acknowledge those things. It's uncomfortable to say that because you know there is such a stark line here between those who are exposing on one side and those who are abusing and covering up on the other. It feels like you have to it if you're going to support victims you must always go to this other side. But sometimes I I do think that on the other side there are people grabbing power by using words that don't apply. And sometimes somebody was sinned against or sometimes somebody just had their feelings hurt and they're they're using big nasty words to describe it and then they're publicizing it and that's ruining uh you know that that's its own kind of sense. It could it could ruin its its own thing. And I and I think that's where I'm concerned is I'm seeing the beginning stages of that kind of language being used. Um you know I I talked to a counselor this week who said uh I have to at least six times a week tell my patients that's not gaslighting. Um because it's it's not just church stuff. It's become part of the modern vernacular and oh here's a pop psychology term. It's a real psychology term, but people are using it in a kind of pop psychology sort of way where they're they're uh hypocchondric like uh reading an article and going, "Oh, that's what happened to me." And and they're attaching that kind of language to those sorts of situations and and that's concerning what that does to people. So, I think we need precise try to be precise with those kinds of terminology. Let's let's talk uh as as quickly as we can because I know we're getting close to time on discipline. Um I'm going to run through a few of these. Uh silence is confused with mercy, right? Uh to do nothing is a view as compassion um towards the individual. >> Under culture. >> Yeah. Undercover up culture. Yeah. So how do they view discipline? Well, by not saying anything, I'm actually protecting this person from exposure. Uh discipline takes a place in a local church. It's not it's not it's not a public event that takes place online. Uh this is a criticism that's been brought to us and we actually think it's probably a valid criticism uh as it relates to biblical context. uh when Paul is telling the church in Ephesus to expose deeds of darkness, 1 Timothy 5:20 when he's saying, "Hey, rebuke an elder publicly before all." Um when uh Jesus is telling us in Matthew 18 to go tell it to the church, he is not talking about telling it on YouTube. He's talking about telling it to his local community, their local churches. I think the problem here is that these individuals have massive public platforms and you can tell these things to the church. Uh but that doesn't affect their public standing. And I I would say that the punishment fits the crime in this regard. If you've got a local person in your church doing ministry and um they are repeatedly in this pattern of sin, uh they won't repent. That is a hey publicly worn before all sort of situation. Um but but then on the flip side of that u if they don't have a public platform and they're not looking to go and do that I don't think every exposure needs to be this big global exposure. I think the punishment fits the crime and if the aim of Jesus and the aim of Paul and writing these letters is to protect congregants from uh coming under the spell of this charismatic leader of coming under the spell of this person's deception and immorality. If that's his aim, then we should try to uh apply the text as it was intended. Uh there's not a uh you know a YouTube following in uh you know Southeast Asia during the time that Paul is writing this letter. And you know uh him and Alexander were not uh o overseas all over the place doing all these online ministries. Um so when he's writing to the church of Ephesus saying hey Minus and Alexander these are bad dudes watch out mark and avoid. when he's saying that, he's saying it to protect the people who could be following that. So, I think we do have a responsibility to publicly uh uh state, publicly expose to protect people. That's Paul's aim. That's Jesus's aim. And any any any capacity in which we expose should match that level of influence uh with the body of Christ. So, I'm not expecting every church that has a church discipline issue to make a YouTube video and plaster it all over the internet. Um, but I I do think that we have a responsibility. >> I love that because it provides a filter for what kind of exposure is necessary because you read Ephesians 5:11, it just it says expose darkness and it and it leaves open the question, okay, well, what do I do? Okay, well, somebody somebody confessed and repented to me or, you know, they, you know, they looked at porn last night. Do I need to put that on the internet? No. This is somebody in your church. They confided in you. You don't need to put that in the on the internet. That's not what Paul's talking about. He's talking about unrepentant sin. Those who are continuing walking in darkness. Uh, okay. So, a local church issue. You you have a, you know, kind of a a local church uh split or division or problem or whatever it is. Expose in so far as it's cause as if you didn't expose it publicly, YouTube, whatever it is, would people victims continue to be hurt the world over? Like if Shawn BS wasn't warned about to the whole world, well then he would continue having his global ministry, you know, like dude, I remember talking to Mike Bickl uh about Chris Reed. You remember when we talked about Chris Reed's uh abuse sin issues and so uh his prophetic issues and anyway, doesn't matter. We've already talked about it. So, uh, I remember talking to him about that, uh, on the phone before Bickl like before it all came out. And, uh, and he told me he he was like, "I don't know if you need to expose it to everybody." And I I gave him an analogy. I was like, "Well, uh," he's like, "Why don't you just tell the church that he sinned against?" This is what it was. It was the lying prophecy, uh, stealing information. And, uh, he's like, "Why don't you just tell that local church?" I was like, "Well, then he's just going to go to the local church down the And he's like, "Well, then you can tell that church." I'm like, "After the fact." Anyway, we went back and forth like that. And I gave him an analogy. I was like, "Well, what if he cheated on his spouse in one local church? Do you only like warn that church and just let him cheat somewhere else?" And anyway, he kind of hummed and hawed. I don't really remember his answer, but now, of course, after all these revelations, it actually makes sense. Um, I I literally used an example about adultery that actually incriminated Bickl himself and I didn't know it at the time. But, um, anyway, all all that to say, when you have these figures with global ministries, well, the globe needs to know. And this is actually what you see in church history, you know, when uh when Aras is spreading his heresy the world over, church leaders are writing treatises and they're going all around the world. They're using the medium of communication at the time to reach the audiences that will be endangered by it. And so I think that's a really good filter that you that you shared, Josh, because that that shows like are we acting in love? Is my real goal just get a bigger platform? Is my real goal um ju to gain some kind of power here? Uh or is my goal to protect sheep who could continue being hurt by this ministry? I think that's a it's a good filter for deciding um how widescale the exposure goes. >> Yeah. Two more things on coverup culture here is that cover up culture assume assumes that exposure equals destruction. U and we mentioned that a moment ago we we assume that this leader is kind of you know leading the charge and if they are removed then the result of that is it's going to destroy the church. Uh, I think what people are hopefully realizing from all of this history is that if IHOP had said, "Hey, and I I actually genuinely believe many of them did not know. Um, and maybe it was all of them. I don't know. Someone's personal private sin, I I'm not holding other people responsible for it." But had had this been revealed and the church said, "Nope, you're out. We're done." The the the congregants would have felt safe. Nothing feels safer than a church that's willing to protect its people. However, if you are a church that's trying to cover that up, if you're a church that's trying to hide that, people will scatter because they will see you as an unfaithful shepherd who's got blood on their hands. Um, so I would encourage people, don't don't take the role, don't take the coverup culture model and and say that, oh no, if this guy falls, it's going to destroy the ministry. Well, if you protect him, it will destroy your ministry. Uh, I would I would, you know, plead with you that you should walk with integrity and show people that you're worthy of following. Uh, and by standing up to those positions of power, it does that. And and I I want to be honest with this, a lot of people profit from this kind of thing. Um, if you're at a church that is a part of the Christian industrial complex and you're a mega church, uh, and your salary is tied up in this whole movement, I understand why people are are trying to cover stuff up because they're trying to make sure that they could take care of their family. They spent decades in this church. If this happens, it's all going to get shot. But I'm just saying, it's not worth it. It's not worth your integrity. It's not worth standing before Jesus and having to give an account for those you've shepherded and those you've abused and those you've let your leader abuse. That's not worth it. Um, another thing is that restoration conversations happen as exposure is taking place. Uh, this is a really bad thing I think in coverup cultures where hey, this guy fell. It's really bad, but we're going to get him restored. He's going through a restoration process right now. That is not something that needs to be verbalized. He needs to be restored to Christ. But this idea that like, oh, we're going to get this guy back into ministry tomorrow. Um, that's deeply concerning. And I think that the Rick Joiners of the world have um made that the standard, unfortunately. Uh I don't think it is the standard. It's not the biblical standard, but hey, this guy, you know, Todd Bentley has committed adultery again and again and again and again. Uh this guy's got substance abuse problems. He's been abusing folks. But, you know, well, let's get him in a restoration plan, get him right back into ministry like that. We shouldn't be having that conversation the second somebody falls. >> Um >> okay, I got exposure content, but I'll give you time to give commentary on that as well. >> Okay, I'll be fast. I know you're trying to finish here. So, um, yeah, it makes me think when you talk about how, uh, cover up culture churches are instantly talking about restoration to ministry and and what's that path going to look like, which should not even be part of the conversation at that stage if there's, for instance, a clergy sexual abuse uh, situation. And of course, our position at Remnant Radio, if you commit sexual uh, clergy sexual abuse, you're not above reproach and should just go get a different job forever. But um anyway, but what I was going to say was uh it makes me think of a a quote by Charles Spurgeon. I'm going to paraphrase it, but uh you know, they were dealing with the question in their day, like you know, if somebody falls into some kind of sexual sin as a pastor, could they ever be restored? Uh and one of the things he said, I I don't know that sexual was necessarily the sin, but it was just a fall from grace. And uh and he said uh we can't really even talk about this until their repentance is as notorious as the sin itself. Uh and and in other words, like you know, like if he's not repenting so over the top and crazy, like why are you even bringing this into the conversation? I mean, I think Zakius is a good model repentance who like goes beyond the Levitical law and paying people back uh that he stole from. And for I think the cover up culture, it's pretty much I'm sorry is good enough and I'm sorry but that's not good enough. Uh Josh, you want to talk about exposure culture? >> Yeah. So this is on the other end of um the discipline piece where coverup culture silence is confused with mercy. I I think in the exposure culture, justice is confused with anarchy. This idea of again just burn it to the ground. Uh, I'm actually concerned that there's a lot of people who really have disliked Bethl because of teaching and practice and and I'm I'm with you. Like you you've seen my videos on uh Copeland goes to Bethl. You've seen my videos on the physics of heaven. Um I I've got some problems with the Passion translation. I've got problems with the fact that Bob Jones is teaching people to deep breathe uh and travel to heaven. Like I think there's some newagy stuff there that is weird and wicked and bad. Um, I think that there's some there's a frequency of error uh in their teaching that begins to emerge and the practices that emerge from that that that I'm I'm really concerned about. Um, but but when this stuff all happened, the the kind of rally cry of so many people in the comments that I'm seeing is like finally burn let's burn this thing to the ground. And I'm just like, man, that's not redemptive. Like there are people of God in that church. And the redemptive plan would be like, let's get them a godly shepherd to clean this thing up to care for those people. Um, does a Chris and a Bill need to step down so that this thing can happen? Yeah, I think so. Uh, but but let's get some people with character and some solid doctrine in there that can care and shepherd those people. I don't think anarchy is the answer. I don't think burn it to the ground. Is there there are times when um the the church has to take an evaluation and say, "Look, everything we're doing is unbiblical. uh every every our leadership structure is unable everything is bad. Um and and maybe we need to decide as a church just to close down and recommend some really good godly u uh churches in the area that people can go to. Maybe that's an option for the local church and that local church needs to decide that. Uh but I do think in the vast majority of situations we we need to have a redemptive edge to all of the exposure stuff. We we need to say hey we we want to make this public appeal uh that this person has fallen into sin so that the others will repent that the others will will stand in fear and awe will come over the church of the holiness of God. I it's not so that we can destroy ministries. Our hope and our aim is so that we can protect the church from bad guys. So I would hope that our focus on exposure culture doesn't confuse justice with this kind of uh nihilist view of like it's all worthless. let's all burn it. And and I'm I am concerned that that is a byproduct of something that we're seeing. >> Yeah. No, that that's good. I I think when you bring up like, hey, the idea, hey, Bethl Church should shut down. One of the arguments I've seen is because Bethl Church isn't a church. And you know, like you said, Josh, we've seen they bring Kenneth Copeland out, whom we say is a heretic. They have physics of heaven, which teaches heresy, all of that. Uh but I would say it is still a church. Um the church in Thotyra in the book of Revelation is called a church even though they tolerate that wicked woman Jezebel. And so she's she's a prophetist but essentially a false teacher. And so there there is a a synratistic oh excuse me allowance that's taking place in the church of Thotyra. And I would say that does happen at Bethl. But and but Jesus also says you have those who don't hold to her teaching. And that's a good thing. And and so what you see is Jesus doesn't view the definition of the church as being what church leaders allow in their bookstore or what church leaders say from the pulpit necessarily. Like I I don't think it could be just defined as that. Uh a a church is defined by the people. Do the people hold to orthodox teaching? Even if a pastor is teaching heresy from the stage, if the people are believers and not don't believe in that. Um, of course you get into all kinds of weird stuff like you have to ask like why would a faithful believer who like stay at a church that teaches heresy. You know, there's all that stuff. My point with Bethl is there are actually a lot of Jesus loving people who go to Bethl. Bethl has egregiously and systemically contributed to and been part of and exported coverup culture. They have tolerated heresy and false teachings. It is abominable and disgusting in every way. That's actually true at the same time that it's true that there are Jesusloving people there and not just a few, quite a few Jesusloving people there. And so I think you would still say it's a church that has allowed some mess to get in. And uh and so I wouldn't say burn it down. I hope that they redeem this. My opinion, I think everybody who knew about Ben Armstrong needs to step down. I think senior leaders need to step down. And I think they just need to give it a fresh start. And I think that's actually the best hope for Bethl. And I just want to say to some of these older leaders, hey, you guys have almost completed like you're kind of older, right? Like you're almost at the end anyway. Step down. Let some of these young bucks surely. I hope. Have you been discipling anyone? Surely there's some younger folks in there. Um I mean I was glad to see like when their internet pastor or whatever the YouTube I don't know what you even call it, but he said, "Thank you, Mike Winger. We're glad you did your videos and we love like man that's awesome. That's the kind of person that like if you put someone like that and I don't know anything about him other than that one statement but like people who get it that's your best hope for survival. Uh and certainly there this this mess that you put up with and physics of heaven all that that's got to be dealt with >> to to be fair on all of that. Their alumni they have been calling they have been spearheading this whole thing. Like yes Mike Winger has been making content but their alumni people they have trained are the ones who are like this Ben Armstrong thing is bad. This Kenneth Copeland thing is bad. So like to your point that that's kind of what I'm appealing to is that first Corinthians there's sexual immorality there's false teaching. There's jocking of celebrity leadership. But Jesus starts the letter saying Jesus Paul starts the letter through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, right? Get me all tied up with technicalities. Um is saying, "Hey, you're the hagios. You're the holy ones." So there I think if Paul can give that church the opportunity to clean up their mess, I I think that he extends that same opportunity. And I'm with you that that that same guy who's like, "Mike, we love you." You know, is saying that we are re-evaluating as a leadership team everything at Bethl Church. And if this is true repentance, and it seems to be true, as far as I can tell, up until this point, I we still need to see them bearing fruit and keeping with repentance, we would want the restoration and care of those people. And maybe they decide it doesn't work. Hey, go to these churches. I I'm fine with them making that decision. But I I think that there's a lot of people who are looking for mob justice. They're looking for burn it to the ground. And the reason they're doing it is because they've always not liked Bethl. And this finally gives them an opportunity to to say, "Hey, let's put the final nail in the coffin." Um, and that's con that's concerning. Um, we we cannot, you know, Deuteron, I'm sorry, Deuteronomy, Exodus, uh, 32 30, sorry, 23:2, I'm going pull it up. It says, "You shall not follow a multitude to do evil, nor shall you bear witness in a lawsuit, siding with the multitude so to pervert justice." Um, and I do think mob justice is a part of cancel culture that I'm concerned about. I'm concerned that people will see, hey, I I want to find myself in the virtuous camp and I want to speak out loudly and turn mountains in uh mole hills into mountains because uh I uh I want to be seen as the side of the good and the holy and the and the protectors of doctrine and those who have moral character. And I I'm concerned that people are going to jump onto things that are abuse that are not abuse. they're going to claim things um that that aren't the case because there is this mob justice mentality uh that's taking place in exposure culture. What I'm what I'm talking about and I hope people can hear this. I'm not even pointing to specific YouTubers or ministries per se, but actually what I'm seeing in the masses when it comes to exposure culture content. Um there is this this desire that anyone who falls is in this perpetual state of disqualification. You know, I'm over here looking at the Mark Driscolls of the world and I'm thinking to myself like, man, I wish he would have repented for the stuff he did. I wish he would have owned the stuff that he did. I think had he done that, um, I would have a different opinion of Mark Driscoll today. I don't think the guy's heavy-handed leadership perpetually disqualifies him. I think he needed to get some counseling. I think he needed to get some care. And I think he needed to legitimately repent. I haven't seen that. So, I'm not placing the stamp of approval as it relates to my personal opinion uh here on this program on a Mark Driscoll because I'm concerned that he has not repented of those actions. Um so, so I'm saying nope, let's let's avoid that for sure. But I don't think that that kind of leadership structure, that kind of leadership uh model in and of itself is like, okay, never again ministry ever again. Um but I am I am concerned um about that kind of mob justice mentality. Let's get everyone out of the bull pit. let's attack anyone and everyone if they've done anything wrong. Let's perpetually get rid of them. Um I think there's a lot of really good guys who are going to potentially in the coming decades uh lose a lot of um a lot of right ministry um a lot of good holy work um because of this kind of mob justice. U because when you take all these things into into play, all you need is a mob justice. All you need is um uh anarchy. All you need is those sorts of things. And if there's a lack of evidence, we've then crucified innocent men. And we need to be careful of of that kind of blood guilt on our hands. Michael, I'm gonna punt it back over to you, my friend. >> Yeah, I I think I don't know. You brought up an interesting point about Mark Mark Driscoll. Could he ever be restored if there was a full-fledged repentance? I I don't know. It's a great question because above reproach means above reproach and he caused egregious harm to thousands of people. Uh, so that would be a tough one. If there was an insane repentance in decades later, maybe I could say yes. But, uh, that would be a hard one for me. Either way, I get your point. It's about, this is about redemption. Galatians 6:1, we want to restore a brother. Of course, that's to restore to Jesus, not to necessarily a ministry, but we do want to have restorative and redemptive hearts. Um, but not everybody needs to be a pastor, and that's okay. Uh, I think I'll just finish because I we're like way past time, but um, I want to read this one quote from T. Trevor. Uh it's a little back in the chat. He says, "Is God's hand shortened that he needs YouTubers to step in to advise and manage the corrective path of a brickandmortar operating church ministry?" Uh well, I think any question that begins with does God need the answer is no. Uh but does God use? I think the answer is yes. If it hadn't been for YouTubers, Bethl would not have repented. That's a good fruit. And have they repented? I don't think they fully repented, but they wouldn't have even said sorry. Um, number two, Mike Bickl would have never been exposed. He would have been continuing to groom and sexually and spiritually abuse young women. This has been a good thing. And we could cite many examples. And when we look down through church history and even back before that, I mean, in the Old Testament, you have Elijah and Elisha and they're kind of out on the fringes and uh and uh and then you see, you got prophets hiding in caves and stuff. Uh, and you see in the New Testament, John the Baptist was the voice in the wilderness. And certainly not calling us John the Baptist. I'm making some analogies here. And uh, and then you see like down through church history and and look at John uh, John Wesley kicked out of the church and he says, "The world is my parish and the people came out." Uh, and so when institutions, when that cover up culture preserves its brand and preserves its image and silences and shuts down and abuses and oppresses the sheep, God will find a way for his voice to get out there. And the point that we're making is no, I don't think YouTube is the ideal. I don't I think the ideal is things get tackled in healthy local churches that have biblical processes in place that allow leaders to get rebuked. But the truth is that hardly ever happens. I mean if if somebody has an issue with a leader and and they say, "Hey, first Timothy 5, we got nine witnesses here who say you've done this thing." What church is going to say, "Yeah, let's set up a church meeting so that you can do that publicly." Um most churches don't. the leaders are going to say, "Uh, yeah, actually I don't want to be rebuked publicly, so uh, scurry along now." Uh, and so in these churches where we can't even where where the corrective voice is continually silenced, well, God finds a way for it to get out. And so, in that way, I think YouTube's good. And I think it also meets the moment where you have YouTube prophets prophesying false things over millions of people. Who's going to deal with that? I mean certainly it'd be ideal if someone in their apostolic network would do so and it never happens. Uh so I think the best way yeah is YouTube considering the options we have. So in a perfect world healthy churches would handle all this and uh when churches are violating that and oppressing and silencing sheep well God finds a way. So I think that would be my answer. Josh you want to close out this episode or make any other comments on that? >> Yeah I would just I agree with all of it. Uh, I would also say that for people who are watching, I hope you understand why Mike Winger is making the content he's making. I hope that you understand why we're making the content we're making. Um, we're actually just trying to help the white blood cells of the church do their job. And when congregants realize, hey, this is a big deal. When elders realize, oh, this is a big deal. When we learn from the history of the past, we're not doomed to repeat it. And I I hope that we are making content, especially on content like this, that helps you identify, yeah, this is coverup culture. we need to fix it. Oh, this is when exposure culture maybe has gone a little too far. We need to course correct. And hopefully we're training the body of Christ on how to do this because uh I think there's a day that Mike Winger and and the Minor Prophets and Remnant Radio and Steven Kosar. I I I hope the day is coming where we don't make this kind of content. We don't want to make this kind of content. It's not fun to make. However, if we can train the body of Christ how to do this in their own local church, then it will replace us. uh we're we're you you know you're doing ministry well when you're replaceable. Um when you're a youth pastor and you're raising up youth pastors, when you're you know an associate guy and you've raised up associate guys, when you're disciplehip model looks like making you irrelevant, that's a good and godly thing. And and our hope is that we don't have to keep doing this. We we want to train the body of Christ to do it. So but they can do it in their local churches. We agree with that person who's out there who's like, "Hey, this should be done on the local level, not by YouTubers." I would say, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely." And when the church starts doing that, we won't. We don't want to. Um, that is the biblical model. It's what God wants. And it again creates that that system of safety for those local members. So, okay guys, uh, this is a good place to wrap up. Thank you so much for tuning into this episode. I encourage you uh, jump online, uh, subscribe, you know, share, do all those fun things if you're uh, really thankful for the content we're producing. Uh, leave us a, you know, a review on Spotify, Google Play, whatever that you're listening to. And uh make sure to check out the course over at theradio.com. We did open up registration, so go uh check that out. We've got registration open for the next three weeks. Uh this a limited time because we have spring and fall semesters. So make sure to snad uh snatch up a spot uh because we only have limited spots there on the course. Guys, thank you so much for tuning in and we'll see you next time. Peace out., Cover Up Culture Versus Exposure Culture, YouTube, 01khnwk21gy1ytsdvdxxp54akp.