Dare to redefine success - Pablo Honey  ## Metadata - Author: [[Radim Malinic]] - Full Title: Dare to redefine success - Pablo Honey - Category: #articles - Document Note: --- tags: - #creativity - #success - #designleadership - #wordpress - #automattic - #thirdculturekid Author: Daring Creativity Podcast — Host credited in intro as **Ryan Malinich**; end credits voice name **“Brad Malinage”** (name discrepancy noted). Guest: **Pablo Honey**. Source: YouTube — “Dare to redefine success — Pablo Honey” Reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM date created: 2025-07-29 19:00 --- # 🎙️ Title: Dare to Redefine Success — Pablo Honey on the Daring Creativity Podcast ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [🎯 Summary](#-summary) - [📚 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [🔗 References (inline)](#-references-include-a-list-of-sources-consulted-and-cited-in-the-article) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter Blurb](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items for Courtney](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [♿ Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-diversity-equity-inclusion-and-belonging-assessment) - [🧩 Logical Validity & Tone](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Check](#-darvo-analysis-prompt) - [🔍 SEO Evaluation](#-seo-evaluation) - [🏁 Conclusion](#-conclusion) --- ### 🔗 References: Include a list of sources consulted and cited in the article. - 🔗 YouTube: *Dare to redefine success — Pablo Honey* — Daring Creativity Podcast (Host identified in intro as **Ryan Malinich**; end credits vocalized as **“Brad Malinage”**): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM --- ## 📝 Summary: - 🔹 **Core idea:** Success isn’t fixed; it **shifts by season**—from portfolio wins and financial goals to belonging, friendship, and contribution ([00:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=6), [39:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=2347)). - 🔹 **Life pattern:** A **third culture kid** background → comfort “in between” disciplines and places; it fuels creativity but complicates belonging ([07:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=452), [8:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=515)). - 🔹 **Craft & career:** From rural Galicia to **Barcelona Flash culture** to **R/GA New York** and leadership at **Automattic**—with a philosophy of **“ruthless hospitality”** learned in restaurants ([25:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=1517), [29:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=1788), [43:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=2636)). - 🔹 **Well‑being tension:** Keep moving forward, but **guard the present**; balance ambition with rest, and public creative work with **overstimulation recovery** ([36:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=2190), [45:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=2718)). - 🔹 **Home:** A **state of motion**—“home is where my feet are” ([52:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=3128)). --- ## 📖 Main Content: - 🔹 **Success as a moving target** ([00:38–1:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=38), [39:07–40:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=2347)): - 🔸 It evolves with roles and seasons. - 🔸 Today’s success may be **connection** and **service**, not just output. - 🔹 **Identity in the in‑between** ([7:32–9:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=452)): - 🔸 Third culture dynamics → **plural perspectives**. - 🔸 Also yields **belonging friction** across cultures and disciplines. - 🔹 **Flash to leadership arc** ([23:09–28:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=1389), [25:17–27:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=1517), [33:41–35:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=2021)): - 🔸 **Yugo Nakamura’s** work catalyzes a leap to Barcelona. - 🔸 Restaurant shifts + agency + teaching → **R/GA → Nike** → Automattic. - 🔹 **Ruthless hospitality** in design ([29:48–32:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=1788)): - 🔸 Treat design like service: **guide, comfort, clarify**. - 🔸 Pair with **hard work**—but watch for survival‑mode overuse. - 🔹 **Shyness, overwhelm, and leadership** ([42:56–47:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=2576), [49:44–51:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=2984)): - 🔸 Two modes: **confident on stage** when content is owned vs. **overstimulated** in crowds. - 🔸 Over‑scanning yields a **feedback superpower**—pattern spotting. ### 🗒️ Notes - 🔹 **Podcast framing** ([1:38–2:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=98)): - 🔸 Creativity ≠ perfection; it’s **showing up** with doubts. - 🔸 Goal: become **more of who you already are**. - 🔹 **Early environment** ([5:03–7:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=303)): - 🔸 Swiss design culture imprinted **typography and systems thinking**. - 🔸 Recognition of influence only **in retrospect**. - 🔹 **Socioeconomic ascent** ([13:00–16:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=780)): - 🔸 First‑gen college; **no books at home → book obsession**. - 🔸 **Family support** despite migration’s emotional cost. - 🔹 **First work & fearlessness** ([19:23–23:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=1163)): - 🔸 Early logo: flawed yet **fresh**—**honest learning**. - 🔸 Freedom before constraints → **bold experiments** (Flash). - 🔹 **Career compounding** ([25:17–28:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=1517)): - 🔸 Restaurant work + agency + teaching → **compound credibility**. - 🔸 **Right place + hard work + luck** → step changes (R/GA/Nike). - 🔹 **Leadership at scale** ([42:56–44:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=2576)): - 🔸 Remote, multilingual team → **kindness as operating system**. - 🔸 Share responsibility; **stay a craftsperson** when possible. - 🔹 **Philosophy on “next”** ([36:30–38:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=2190)): - 🔸 “Next” inspires yet **steals the present** if unchecked. - 🔸 Practice **gratitude** while imagining futures. - 🔹 **Home as mindset** ([52:08–53:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=3128)): - 🔸 “Home is where my feet are.” - 🔸 **In‑motion** creativity; New York + Galicia. --- ## 📖 References: - 🔗 YouTube episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM - 🔗 Learn WordPress (contextual resource): https://learn.wordpress.org/ - 🔗 Developer resources: https://developer.wordpress.org/ - 🔗 Make/Core (context for leadership and process): https://make.wordpress.org/core/ --- ## 🗣️ Paraphrase: - 🔹 **On success evolving** ([39:07–40:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=2347)): - *Original meaning:* Success morphs over time—from projects and money to relationships and reconnection. - *Paraphrase:* “What counts as success keeps shifting. Sometimes it’s a standout project, sometimes a paycheck, and sometimes it’s simply being close to the right people at the right time.” - 🔹 **On home** ([52:08–53:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM&t=3128)): - *Original meaning:* Home is not a fixed place; it’s presence in motion. - *Paraphrase:* “Home, for me, isn’t an address—it’s wherever I’m standing now. Movement itself is where I feel most at home.” --- ## 📰 Newsletter: - 🔹 **This week in WordPress & creative leadership:** - 🔸 *Listen:* Pablo Honey on redefining success and leading with **ruthless hospitality**—design as a service, not a shrine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM - 🔸 *Learn:* Up your chops with **Learn WordPress** workshops and courses (editor workflows, accessibility basics, performance profiling): https://learn.wordpress.org/ - 🔸 *Build:* New to block theming or interactivity? Start at **developer.wordpress.org**—clear guides, code samples, and API docs: https://developer.wordpress.org/ - 🔸 *Community:* Pair up with a Make team for a first issue—Docs, Training, A11y, or Polyglots all welcome contributors. Your first PR doesn’t have to be code. - 🔸 *Plugin picks:* Prioritize tools that improve **editor experience**, **acces - Summary: Pablo Honey, Head of Design at Automattic (WordPress), shares his extraordinary journey from a small Galician village with "more cows than people" to leading design teams across 23 countries. Born in Spain but raised in Switzerland, Pablo embodies the "Third Culture Kid" experience—never quite fitting into traditional boxes but finding strength in the spaces between. His path began with award-winning short stories about escapism, led him through Flash festivals in Barcelona, three years working in restaurants while building his design career, and ultimately to prestigious roles at RGA New York working on Nike campaigns. Now managing 80 designers remotely, Pablo reflects on how his multicultural background, sensitivity to overwhelm, and philosophy of "ruthless hospitality" shape his creative leadership. Key Takeaways • Embrace the in-between spaces - Not fitting perfectly into any category can become your greatest creative advantage and unique perspective • Third Culture Kid identity - Growing up between cultures creates rich, diverse thinking but requires learning to navigate belonging and identity challenges • Moving forward vs. present moment - Balance the drive for "what's next" with appreciation for current achievements to avoid constant restlessness • Success is seasonal - Your definition of success will evolve from portfolio pieces to financial goals to human connections as you mature • Ruthless hospitality matters - Treating design as an experience of guiding people through communication applies restaurant service principles to creative work • Humble beginnings fuel ambition - Coming from no creative references or higher education can motivate you to work harder and inspire others • Sensitivity as strength - Being overwhelmed by stimuli and visual noise can enhance learning speed and ability to see details others miss • Remote leadership requires kindness - Managing distributed teams across languages and cultures succeeds thro... - URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAw6VRNjRM Hey, just a quick note to say thank youfor joining me on this episode. If thisis your first time or you’re a regularlistener, please take a minute and ratethe show on your chosen platform. Ashort review helps every show to be morevisible to new listeners and providesthem with value. So, thank you for beinghere and for helping out. Thank you.[Music]Success is such a tricky concept, andyou’re right to agree that it meansdifferent things to different people. The more I talk with friends andfamily, even whatever it means for them,it changes over time. So at any giventime in my career, maybehaving or creating a project for myportfolio was success, or thecreative endeavor was success. Someother times, it was a certain financialthreshold. Other times, it’s reallyconnectingto people or reconnecting with friendsand family.It really changes for me. It has changedand it keeps changing every maybeseason.[Music]Welcome to the Daring CreativityPodcast. A show about daring to foreverexplore creativity that isn’t aboutchasing shiny perfections. It’s aboutshowing up with all your doubts andimperfections and making them count. It’s about becoming more of who youalready are. My name is Ryan Malinich.I’m a designer, author, and eternallycurious human being. I am talking to abroad range of guests who share theirstories of small actions that sparkedlifetime discoveries, taking one steptowards the thing that made them feelmost alive. Let me begin this episodewith a question. Are you ready todiscover what happens when you dare tocreate? Today I’m talking to Pablo Honey. He’s adesigner, creative director, andeducator. Born in Galissia, raised inSwitzerland, he’s also resided inBarcelona and now New York City. Forover two decades, he’s been working forFortune 500 companies and startups fromtraditional media to emergingtechnologies in constant flux. In ourconversation, he talks about hisaward-winning short stories aboutescapism, about early pursuits of AdobeFlash, how he spent three years workingIn restaurants while building his designcareer, which ultimately led him toprestigious roles and campaigns. Pabloalso reflects on his multiculturalbackground, sensitivity to overwhelm,and philosophy of ruthless hospitalitythat shaped his creative leadership. It's my pleasure to welcome Pablo Honey.[Music]Hey Pablo, how are you doing? Excited to be here.So for those who may have never heard ofPablo Honey, how would you describeyourself? My name is Pablo Honeyani andif we go through the traditionalprofessional roles, I suppose I’m adesigner, creative director, andcurrently head of design at Automatic,the makers of WordPress and othercreative tools to be on the web. I workin between multiple disciplines ofdesign, from technology to branding, andother things in between. Though I’m not sure I’m all of thosethings; it’s just what I do. I’m just ahuman like everyone, full of fears andcuriosities. What defines more who I am, I guess, istraveling in between those roles andconcepts. As a designer, sometimes I'm more of acreative, other times a manager, an artist,and so on. I love the way that you sayI'm a human full of fears and curiosity,because you're already setting the barin the place where I love theseconversations to be. You know, they'rehuman conversations, because as you said,whatever you do defines you at thetime when you do it. But after all, weare human trying to sort of make thesedots join and make some sort of sense ofit and make a journey. Where did it allstart? Because you were born in Galicia,but you were raised in Switzerland. Whenever I see your output, whenever Isee what you do, I feel like Switzerlandhas had a very big impact on what youbecome creatively. Am I correct?Very much so. I was born in this regionin the northwest of Spain thathistorically has been quite poor, sopeople migrated out. They were migratingout before the Second World War, mainly to theAmericas. And after the Second World War, theywere moving up to rebuilding Europe. Andmy parents migrated in the last wave ofthat migration, in this case toSwitzerland, and that's where I grew up. It was a happy childhood surrounded by things that I onlyrecognized much later in my career. Whenlooking back, even traveling back toSwitzerland, I was recognizing a lot ofthings that I loved: architecture,typography,general design, and books and signage,and so on. I realized much later howmuch of an impact that childhood,surrounded by all good design, had onmy understanding of the profession later on. What you describe is very much formative years. Youare a sponge at that time, as yousaid, almost like a subconscious sponge.You know, you picked up on all the thingsthat made sense a lot later. So, what wasthe age and what was the surrounding? I moved as a baby, when I was a fewmonths old, and was in Bern, the capitalof Switzerland, until I was 10 — a littleabove 10. So it was 10 years of beingthe sponge of design and design culture. Again, you’re not aware when you’re akid, but then when you’re older andfollow this path and this profession,you start to identify with certainapproaches and certain sensibilities forcreativity and design. To find that concoction of theseinfluences, because obviously you've gotyour roots, you've got your Spanishroots. You're in Switzerland and you areon the trajectory to become a creativecurious human designer, creativedirector. So I'm trying to find theideas of what were the initials of thecreative spark. You know this has been a theme for myentire life. There's this concept thatmaybe you've heard of called thirdculture, which is basically thisstate of mind of people who were born inone place but were raised in a differentculture, and they live in between those cultures. There's almost like a limbo spacewhere they develop their own, whichis a mix of both. In my case, it's even alittle bit more drastic because beyondthat duality of Spain or Galicia andSwitzerland, then I moved into differentplaces. I lived in Barcelona for many yearsbefore moving to New York City, whereI've been for 12 years. New York City hasbeen actually the longest I've been in aplace. So there's all these tensions inbetween cultures that ultimately haveformed my own profile, my own way ofthinking and my own way of being. But it has to be honest with you, it's always a challenge too because I was tooSpanish to be Swiss, and I was tooSwiss to be Spanish. I was tooGalician to be in Barcelona, and I'm tooSpanish to be in New York City.It's translated to disciplines, and perhaps weget to it, but I also understand theprofession of design in less of boxesand more in between. So I find alsomyself too interactive for the graphicdesigners, too graphic designer forinteractive folks. And it's quite funnyhow I enjoy being in between, but it alsohas been a challenge belonging to groups, cultures, andconcepts. We'll be back after a quick break.This episode is brought to you by LuxCoffee Co., the first creativespecialty coffee company, building aplatform to shine the light on emergingglobal talent with a mission to make apositive impact on the creative industryand beyond. Lux Coffee Co. offersexceptional coffee sourced from aroundthe world through ethical andsustainable practices. And you candiscover the current range of signatureblends and single origins. Hardware and accessories along withexceptional apparel at lux coffee.co.uk.You can use the code podcast to get 15%off your first order.[Music]I love how this is all making sense now.You and I have met a couple of times. Wehad conversations, but I’ve never heardof the term third culture kid. Would youdescribe being too Spanish to be Swiss,too Swiss to be Spanish, or being Galicianin Barcelona? To a certain degree, it matters to somepeople, and to a certain degree, it’s abenefit. It’s a gift of life becausesome people are just too Catalan to beCatalan. They want to stay Catalan. Somepeople are just basically hardcore NewYorkers. They were always too hardcore NewYorkers. But I think the way you describeyourself as the curious human that’shovering over these differentdisciplines makes sense because I feel that whatyou describe here is definitely a giftof life. It’s not always smoothsailing thinking, "Where is home? Where aremy friends? Where is my tribe? Where doI belong, or where do I fit in?"The way has given you what I'm sensing so far — this incredible gift of actuallybeing a curious human being that transcends these disciplines intosomething that other people wouldn't potentially have done it. I love you describing like two to this for that and two this for thatbecause I don't think you feel that anymore, do you?Because you're not, you know, 10, 20, 25 anymore, because it doesn't really matter what people think, right? I appreciate you. You say it elegantly that I'm not like so young anymore, and II'm not really. So it doesn't matter too much now, and I do agree with you fullythat I appreciate these life experiences as something that are part of me, and itallows me to have perhaps a diverse set of perspectives or a little bit ofrichness in the thinking and making. I do embrace it and so on, but it hasn't been smooth,especially when you are looking for your own identityand forming who you are, what you want to do, and so on.It's challenging to not fully belong to anything, any group,but it is something that I appreciate today. I'm going to try to trace the creativity in your life becauseThere's a sort of cultural mixture ofall sorts of influences, dissonances, andconflicts and fictions. Where doescreativity come into this? I don't knowreally. It's been a strangeexperience and case, I suppose. I come from a very humble background.They had to migrate one generation back.They were very poor.So there were noreferences for me tohold on to for this creative careeror develop these creative curiosities.There were no books at my parents' house.Fast forward, I'm obsessed with booksnow to an extreme case. I love reading.I love being surrounded by books and soon. No one in my family went tohigher education, so I was the first onegoing to college in my entire lineage,which wasa little bit dizzy, to be honest withyou. Andnot having these referencesinvited me today to actually speak up alittle bit more and being a little bitmore public to see if there'ssomeone out there, maybe in a very smallvillage like the one that I come from,that can maybe hear us talking. I relate to and just have a little bit ofa push forward for them to pursue theircuriosities. I really don't know wheremine comes from, really. I was a writeras a teenager. I would write a lot. Iwould read a lot. I was interested inbooks and magazines. I was back in Galysia. We wereliving in a very small village; there weremaybe 50 people living there. There were more cows thanpeople. And I was subscribing tomagazines from New York City, mainlydesign and creative magazines, one fromthe School of Visual Arts, how magazineand so on. Now I laugh about it,because someone was sending thesemagazines to this little village in Galysia. So I had these curiosities allthe time about filmsand stories, and I'm not sure where theycome from, really, because I didn't havethose references at home. That'sreally interesting that in a villagewhere there are more cows than people, youfind your way of escapism and startedlooking for what might be out there inthe world. Because sometimes we hopethat there's a sort of societalInfluence, or there's someone who willshow us the path or even try to emulatesomeone trying to be as good as someonewho would like to show us the ways. You're talking about the School of VisualArts, and the loop — mostly the full circle —is there, and now you actually ended upworking for the School of Visual Arts later,which is a beautiful full circle. Butwhen you said you were the first personfrom your lineage to go into college, didyou have pushback, or did you have asupport? How did that feel? Because thereason why I ask this is because there areoften people on this show talkingabout almostgoing against the tide, likepeople are not always happy for someone to sort of say, "Hey, don't do this thing."Because people come up with their ownlife problems at this situation,and go, "Hey, you're going to do this? Are you sure?"Because to them, their securitylooked a lot different from the unknown, aspresented. So how was it for you? Did youhave that support — full support? I wasvery lucky to have the parents and thefamily I have, because theyhad this vision without knowingto support me in this journey. They were fully supportive of me going tocollege and doing what I've done later,even just quitting my job in Galysia andmoving to Barcelona without a job. Andthey were super supportive despitethe pain of them seeingagain someone in their lineage movingout, right? Migrating out. That was alittle bit painful, especially for my dadbecause that generation was dreaming of comingback home and developing a lifethere without their kids needing to move out.But I had a lot of support from my familybeyond their understanding. AndI again celebrate this duality I'veexperienced, moving from this esoteric rural context to thismodernist fast city of New York City.I try to embrace both, and both wereformative and are part of who I am andhow I understand the world, even inthe profession. You said you were a writer in yourteenage years. Do you remember whatstories you were writing? What was it?What was the narrative that you wereputting together? Was it escapism? Wasit projections? What did you write? About? Both wereabout escaping, actually. So I had, I hadand I say both because I wrote a lot ofthings, but specifically, two shortstories were published when I was ateenager. They were part of a contest,and they made it to be finalists, and thenthey were published in subsequent books,which I was very happy about, andthat inspired me to perhaps pursue awriting career. Irealize, as you speak, that both storiesare about escapism, just beingdiscomfort with staying boxed. I thinkwhat you've described so far makes perfect sense; those storieswere a reflection, potentially, of the subconscious trying to come out and say,"There’s something else waiting." So,again, you were award-winning from avery young age, right? Being chosen tohave your stories published. That’sremarkable when you think about it, justbecause the longing is pushing out. Itstarted something. So I have to ask you,from a creative side of things, do youremember the very first thing that youever designed? What was that firstbreadcrumb that you picked up and thought,"You know what? This is quiteInteresting. I want to do more of this. It's funny that you asked this becauseI've been on a recent journey of itsalmost like an archaeologicaljourney of compiling all my work over25years. And as I'm compiling all thatwork and archiving all that work, Ifound this very first logo that Idesigned ages ago.AndI see today so manymistakes I made,but I still like it. There's somethingfresh about it. There's somethingunapologetic about it. And you knowwithout knowing, even there's a lot ofconnection with Switzerland; there'sa bit of vinyl in it and so on. So I lookat it and I might actually fix it a littlebit, just for self-indulgence, I suppose. But I was very surprised to see itand still like it today. Love it.Absolutely love it. I mean, I’m veryimpressed that you’ve got the very firstlogo still somewhere because I’m somehowpersonally quite happy to have got ridof all the evidence that I used to suck.I don’t know. Or maybe I was a genius.Who knows? Who knows? But let’s talkAbout the first logo a little bit more,how did you get to do that logo? Somebody must have asked you to do this.And to do this, you must have told someone, "I can do this for you."So on the concept of daring creativity,step one: how did you get your firstlogo commission?I think I was perhaps in my first year of college andI was a little bit of a weird guy back then.I was doing a lot of video experiments,and I was starting to play around with video performances and things of that nature.So you can see that I was getting into strange places, even with noawareness and understanding of the medium. In that context, and also connected tothe short stories I had written,someone who became a dear friend—we were friends for so long—found thosestories in a local libraryand realized that he needed to meet this kid who was writing thesestrange stories and doing strange things with video. I guess I don't know what thetranslation exactly is, but it is anassociation of vets in Galicia,specifically for cows and largeranimals. They were creating thisassociation, and he asked me to createsome branding for it, I guess, before weunderstood what branding was, or Iunderstood what branding was. So thereI go; I create this logo. Fastforward, I create this flashpresentationfor the whole association, which I dohave a video of, and I'm a little bitembarrassed by, but it's still likepretty fantastic tobe able to have fewer constraints andbe a little bit free with the mediumback then, when I suppose the web anddigital were a little bit more fun. I mean, what a story! And I mean, whatan assignment: an association for vetsspecializing in livestock! Obviously, ina place where there are more cows thanpeople on average. That makes allperfect sense. But Flash, I mean, italmost feels like a sort of Twilight Zone that Flash could havecaused chaos and let everyonerip loose. I mean, Flash was basically, II think it was invented so designers can showother designers what they can do withFlash in a way of showing them Flashskills, confusing everyone else. But Flash, I think, is a perfect segue,because you moved to Barcelona becauseof a certain festival. It was only theother day I found out that it stands foroffline Flash. What was it? Offline Film. Offline FilmFlash Festival, something like that. Ithink that's the actual definition. I'mthinking, what a cool name! I'm like,what does it stand for? And I literallyjust a few days ago was like, oh, that'swhat it is. Which reminds me, FITC wasflashing a car. There were a lot of Flashfestivals. There are still festivals where Flash isnowhere near to be found. So, acomplicated, silly segue into you movingto Barcelona because of a festival calledArt, right?That's pretty much it. Yes. Beforefinishing college, I already had a jobat a small graphic design studio. You know,I had a regular life. I had a job. I had, you know,family, clothes,a car, a home, whatnot. But I was stillI was involved with this video experimentation,VJing, doing video installations,interactive installations, and so forth,and decided to visit Barcelona to attend this crazy event called Poff thata friend of ours founded, actor Aus, andnow is continued by Pep. I attended this festival,and suddenly I seethis Japanese guy on stage, YugoNakamura, known as Yubop, presentingthesevisual poemscreated in Flash — interactive pieces ofgraphic designthat were moving and reacting to input.And it just blew my mind for some reason. You know, sometimessomething just triggersyour mind, and it kind of made me moveto Barcelona. So I quit my job, quit mylife in Galicia, and moved to Barcelonaknowing that I had to pursue somethingsimilar to what Yugo was doing. How did that go?Pretty good. I think I moved toBarcelona without knowing anybody, andso there were some fears hitting there, but I had avery raw andI had a different profile and portfolio because I was not coming froma traditional graphic design school. I started to show my portfolio aroundwhile I was working at a restaurant to survive. I worked at a restaurant forabout three years. Even when I got a job,I had a job in an agency, and I was still working at therestaurant. I worked every day of the week, basically going between the agency and therestaurant on the weekends until apoint where I got an offer to teach atthe Institute of European Design. Then,I had to choose a career, and I chose design andcreativity. I was teaching at the agency, which was very pioneering back then with Flashand interactivity, called W. In general, it was pretty scary to move into Barcelona withoutknowing anyone. But after working hard, being in the right place,and having a little bit of luck, I developedmy career in that agency. The workthat I developed there got the attentionof RGA New York. Agency, they made me an offer to come tothis fantastic city to work for Nike,which I couldn't refuse. So overall, thatexperience in off triggered a stepforward and emotional forward that broughtme to this day. So thank you to Off.Thank you to Off, but mainly thank you toFlash. I mean, Flash was the enabler.Flash, I mean, Flash produced somethingyou saw on the screen or on the stage. Ifell in love with it. Okay, I'm movinghere. This is what I'm going to do. AndI'm a big advocate of moving to placeswhere you don't know anyone because youcan start the story afresh, and you canactually focus on what you want to dobecause you don't have that stability,that security. It makes you, I think, worktwice as hard. I mean in your case, Imean, you were working in a restaurantfor three years, and it gives you thatfoundation. I think it would be wrong tosay it makes you a bit more hungry,actually. It makes you more determinedto make it happen because you can'talmost take it easy. What I really wantto know is what have you learned inthose three years of being in therestaurant because you come into sort offamously come into contact with the Public every single day. What was yourrole and what have you learned that youactually still use today? First of all,I feel a little bit old as we talk aboutflash and moving from it and withoutnostalgia. What I learned at the workingat the restaurant, which is still myfamily — I actually call them my Catalanfamily, and every time I go to Barcelona,of course there the whole neighborhoodis appreciative of me being there andvice versa. So I have a love story withthat restaurant still today. Therestaurant, by the way, is called ThinkCormanos five brothers. It's in one ofthe larger neighborhoods in Barcelona, inthe north of the city. Andthe two things, perhaps, that I learned arefirst of all hospitality, beingwelcoming, nice to people,comforting, and it quite connects to thework I do in design. We should bethinking about design and how youguide someone through experiences, howyou make someone understandcommunication, and so on. So walking andworking with people to have wonderfulexperiences. So I think ruthlesshospitality is one learning. The other learning is that youGot to work hard. And perhaps that'ssomething I'm still inheriting from myparents as a mental program where youhave this survival mechanism that makesyou propel forward constantly. And we have tocheck on that, right? Because it can bealso risky to only move with thatsurvival mechanism. But I think onething I learned as well is that yougot to work hard, and I neverbelieved that I had something morespecial than others. In fact, joiningRGA from a small village, from not fancycop schools, and it was an adventure. Butone thing I had is the hardworkingspirit and that, you know, I inherited asI said, from my parents and myfamily, as well as from experiences like working in a restaurant. I love that youuse the words ruthless hospitality,which makes me believe that you haven'theard of the book about hospitalitywhich is called unreasonable hospitality,right? Because he was ruthless, and whatwas really interesting was that the dayyou were doing a talk at Mucho just afew weeks ago, I was walking to Mucho afew hours earlier to have lunch withPablo, another Pablo, and I was trying toI wanted to announce my new book. I’d like to talk about it. I had this idea of a complicated cover, like sort of moving words and that kind of stuff.I saw a Spanish copy of "Unreasonable Hospitality" looking at me from a bookshop during my walk.I thought, "Yeah, it's time to keep it simple."This cover can just have the words being written; you don’t have to do any nonsense. Just keep it simple."Unreasonable Hospitality," which I've read not that long ago, is a fantastic book about how you can do one thing so much better than anybody else. What do you get known for, and what do you do?The way you said "ruthless," I quite like it because it takes it another step forward.Yes, it's meant to be ruthless.I love how all of this beautifully takes us into your new chapter with IG, because that’s a step up.We're going from someone who — and I love the fact that there are more cows than people.I know this is the last time I’m going to say it, butBe going through that setting which youwould not see yourself being in,potentially thinking, "I'm sureyou might attest to it, like potentiallythinking all of that work that's amazingis done by some other people. It's notdone by people like me or by people likeus, or people from this place, only to find yourself getting an offer, goingyeah, we're going to New York, saying, "I'mnot that special," whereas there issomething special about everyone whogets an offer like this becauseit wouldn't employ a fool,someone who's not into ruthlesshospitality or into working hard, kind ofthinking, "I'm going to here actually doreally good work." So we are now in NewYork; IG offers accepted. There's a Nikeaccount. What happens? I don't know. Sometimes I don't knowwhat I'm doing, and I'm just like movingforward. It was quite a journey. It's RJhas been formative as well, andI moved really quickly with my brokenEnglish and my naive view of the cityand business and so on. But again, Ithink being curious, being hardworking,being open as well to learn, and beinga sponge constantly is something that II continued doing at RGA. I was therefor about six years and moved quitequickly through it, launching and makingreally good work with other people andlearning from others, and also helping alot of young designers develop theirown paths. You said, "Moving forward.""Moving forward" is one of the titles, one of the working titles for the book,moving forward because this is what wedo. I'm trying to sort of thinkabout it out loud right now. But ifyou’re not thinking about the next step,you are almost falling behind, if thatmakes sense. I mean, I’ve learned to becareful about the word sometimes whenyou see other people thinking, "Why don’tyou want to do this?" Some people arejust happy to be the thing they are now,and they are happy to be doing the thingfor the next twenty years because we need peoplelike them. But I think we are aligned onthis philosophy of moving forward anddoing it in a way that suggests there issomething else. That’s another thing. There’s something about moving forwardthat is undeniablypositive, and there’s alsoa dangerous side of it. I think you andI alongside Stefanmeister, we talked atParadiser, not so long ago, talked about chasingthe next and why we are so obsessed withit. And I do find myself relating tothat dichotomy of moving forward and,as well, questioning myself why weare yet again thinking about what'snext. I had a lot of next already, andI need to check myself when I'mpropelling my mind forward too much andthinking about the next ambition versusalso enjoying the present. And so Idon't have a lesson to give, but it'sstill a good discussion to continue,because we, in today's society, are a bit obsessed with next. You said you don't have a lesson aboutthis, but you said it's undeniablypositive. I think that is the lesson. Imean, yes, we are obsessed with the nextif we are sort of impatient about thenow, but having done something about thenext, like seeing the two steps forward,or seeing — and I call it like drivingin the dark — versus you know, seeing aheadfor a mile. Like moving forward couldfeel like driving in the dark, but whenyou know that there’s a destination,you’re getting to, it actually looks afterthat happiness, because I think it looksafter that satisfaction. Our definition of success has changed because ifyou don't know where you're getting this,it's almost like an example of short-term projects. Now, people who have50 short-term projects will dream aboutone long-term project, and there's aperson with a long-term project who islonging for 50 small projects becausethey don't have that dopamine hit aboutfinishing something. Whereas the peoplewith the 50 are like, "This is chaos. Ineed some order to this." You know, so it'sjust again, we're on those scales of life,never really being happy with one or theother because you always want the otherthing. Whereas on that mission of moving forward and thinking, actually beingaccountable to yourself and saying, "I'mthinking, well, there's another thing thatmakes me excited, and what is the priceto pay or the price to give for notdoing so? Because you said, "I need tocheck myself if I'm thinking too muchahead, and I'm like, "Okay, if it stops youfrom enjoying the present, maybe." But Isee it as a gift. It could be a gift; it'salso allfun andentertaining to project yourselfsomehow. But I do try to force myself. Into enjoying more today and thepresent, and what Ihave already achieved, or what I did, or thepeople I inspired, perhaps, and try toappreciate both the present and alsoentertain myself withprojecting into the future. The panel that you mentioned between Y, me, andStefan was titled, "Are we afraid to behappy? Are we bending the flatline ofour own success?"Success is such a diversemultifaceted word when you think aboutit. Success shouldn'tmean just one thing, but success toeverybody means a totally different thing.In your case, what is your definition ofsuccess? Wow,you've got all the time you want.Do we have another hour?We can have a couple if you want.Success is such a tricky concept, andyou're right and agree that it meansdifferent things to different people.The more I talk with friends andfamily, whatever it means for them,it changes over time. So at any giventime in my career, maybehaving or creating a project for myPortfolio that was success or thecreative endeavor was success. Someother times it was a certain financialthreshold. Other times, it was reallyconnectingto people or reconnecting with friendsand family. It really changes for me. It has changedand it keeps changing every maybeseason. AndI'm currently in a phase where I'mappreciating a lot connecting andreconnecting with friends, peoplethatshare certain fears and curiosities, andalso people that don't agree with me.So, I'm in this process ofmaybe coming out of my cave a little bit,because I've been quite shy and focusedon my own work that I forgot thatthere's a world out there that I can bepart of and share a story. As I said,maybe inspire someone who is in a smallvillage. I love how you're thinkingabout it. I love how you go through thestages, because success initially couldbe very selfish, and then you can be alittle bit generous with how youperceive success, and then you realizethat success is totally unreliant onOther people are totally unreliant onanything else because, again, you've saidit beautifully: success changes. You know there's a different sort ofdefinition to it because we look forthat external validation so much at thebeginning. You mentioned successwould be like creating stuff in myportfolio and how much we obsessedabout the portfolio—so, so, so much. And you'relike, "Have you got a portfolio?" It doesn’treally matter anymore because I believemy current definition of success outsideof family life is actually being able tospeak to people, actually share thephilosophies, make sense, and work onstorytelling, and actually do more with just the sharing of our ideas and sharing ofour experiences because that’s going togive someone a lot more inspirationor potentially take someone evenfurther beyond just a pretty piece ofwork that might look obsolete in 5, 10, or 15years. You know, I think what we docurrently, as an industry, especiallywith the circus that we’ve connected with, Ithink that is a success. I think we arereally opening doors to that sort ofemotional sharing sort of economy ifthat makes sense by inspiring people. Actually going and doing something fortheir benefit, because in your work andevery time I see you, I have to askyou, like, you really manage people? No,you really manage 80 designers,especially when I found out they’re in23 countries working in 25 languages.I’m like, right, you just calledyourself shy, or used to be shy. How doyou do all of this? Because that’s ahell of a lot of people to manageand keep inspired, keep in check, keepthem motivated. Of course, I’m sure youdon’t speak to every single one of themevery day, but like you and I have adesign leader, and I want to know how youdo it. Well, first of all, probably notexcelling at it. I’m stilla craftsperson at heart, so there’salways that tension between themanagement and being a craftsperson. Ata given moment, you can find medesigning an icon or, you know, whatnot. And that might take time frommanaging. I’m also lucky enough thatthere are other people around thatare better at it and also share theresponsibility of guiding such a largeteam. On top of it, it's fully remote. SoIt's quite hard at times because we, or I, miss a lot of that life connection and that lifecreativity that sparks when we are together. And so on, and we still try to do that, like flying a lot over to placeswhere we can meet and work together.I think, how do I do it or how do we do it?We probably need to document it at some point.But I think the key of it is probably shared by many others that youinterviewed so far, is having greatpeople. And I'm lucky that there aregreat people at Automatic. Not just asskilled and talented, but also graciousand super kind.It's probably like the kindest group of humans I've ever workedwith, so that makes it quite easy. I think it's sometimes hard becausethere are a lot of silences in a remoteculture, and I'm also shy myself, and soon. Uh, butit's much easier when you choose, or theychoose you, but you choose the rightpeople, and the kindest people.It's a beautiful thing that you said.No, it's the kindness of people, eventhough you are surrounded by kind people,that makes everything half as difficultas it should be. Already a definition of success. Yousaid you shy quite a few times,but I've met you when you did talk, justyou know, in earlier slaughtered ofBarcelona in front of a few thousandpeople. We all get nerves; we don’t wantto be on the stage. We dream to be on thestage, but something makes—somethinghelps you to break through that barrier. So would you say that your definition ofshyness is connected to that Galiciankid in Switzerland—Swiss-like kid in Galicia? Would you saythere's some sort of way of beingperceived by others that makes you thinkthat way? Becausethe more I think about shyness, there'ssomething else behind it. There's more vulnerabilities and morepotentially shame. But you've made itfar enough that you've broken throughthat—no, broke through that seal. So, doyou have an understanding of where thatcomes from? I certainly have two modes. One in which you've seen me on stage infront of 3,000, 5,000 people,and I can breeze through it,especially if I know what I'm talkingabout, and the story is something I canI own and I understand, and likely I've built and so on. So I feelconfident in what I do. There's theother mode, that is thiskid from Galysia that grew up inSwitzerland,that is oftenand perhaps not many people know this,but is often overwhelmed by stimuli,and I'm very sensitive tovisual noiseitself. And so on. So I don't enjoy crowds fortoo long because I'm constantly scanningand listening to what is happening. Andif you think of it, it becomes reallytiring after some time. So Iretreat myself into my silences and mymeditations and my solo times to recoverfrom thosebusy instances in which I'm also happyand I enjoy being around friends andpeople I learn from and so on. But itdoes force me to find these two modeswhere, you know, I can be inbusy environments and also I need to findthose quiet settings. I think a lot ofpeople, if they got this far in theconversation, which I hope they have, willfind a lot of value in this becauseThe overwhelm again is anothermultifacetedbeast. You know it comes in all sorts ofshapes and sizes. Most of it isself-inflicted. Sometimes you just can't really doanything about it because you want to bepart of that conversation. You go to aplace which is busy, noisy, you know,overwhelming, because that's where the nextchapter might be and in your case, youknow, I mean, when you talk about a busyplace, I mean, I can all think, forexample, my experience is of here. It'sjust it's a Disneyland. It's incredible. But the recovery time from that is justoverstimulated, isn't it? It's overstimulated. There's so much, yet we need it.But like how do you tap into theright amount of what you can do with itbecause, yeah, it's like balance betweenyou know when I'm thinking like forgymnastics, you know, the perfect dismount.You know you've got such a degree ofprecision. You know, it's just if you getsomething wrong, it can look not right. Imean I'm talking about dismounts when itcomes to creative crowds, but it's justso to get this right, it sometimescould be out of its own, you know. Yeah, I sometimes envy the peoplewho go to events and they are there for three days;they go home on Monday, and I’m like, I’malready flying Saturday evening. I can’teven do that; even on the third day, you know.And, um, so that is that. But I’m glad youtalked about it because I think it’sso relevant, because sometimes peopledon’t know how to perceive their own shyness;they perceive that sort of their own being inthat busy, busy space or with authoritativepeople in the room. You know, because Ithink things like shyness, impostersyndrome, and introversion are oftenmisunderstood. Sometimes it’sundiagnosed, unspecified, and I thinkbeing self-labeled can sometimes be helpful, because you don’t have todeal with it for quite a while, andthat’s when the escapism comes in, andit can potentially be sort of creativelyhelpful. But then we go back in, like, yeah,I can’t do this because, you know, I’mstill shy or some introvert. But becauseyou said what was interesting: what yousaid was like, I can do the talk becauseI know what I’m talking about. But when Idon’t know the situation, I’m scanning.You know, I think these are things youHold your story because you're incontrol of it. And then when you're not,it's like it's all up there andexhausting. It can be very exhausting. At the sametime, I see a positive flip to itbecause it helps you. At least it helps— it helped me learn much faster becauseyou're constantly scanning and listeningactively and digesting a lot ofinformation at the same time. So,there's a learning upside. Then theother aspect that I see positively issomething I experienced often withpeople I work with, where I'm reviewing apiece of work or we are collaborating onsomething, and I can see a lot of thingsat the same time. So there's always aflip side to it. Over the years, I'vebeen able tomanage it much better, and at the sametime, I think it has that flip side thatallowed me to learn much faster and alsoprovide feedback and guidance on a lotof details at the same time. I mean, it'sbeautiful. It's beautiful. My lastquestion to you in this — I’m processingwhat you've told me for the last hour,because it's — I love it. But myquestion is: before I let you go, is itIt kind of goes back to the beginning. Youwere too Galileian to be Swiss, tooGalician, too Spanish, no, too Galileianto be Catalan, then too Spanish to be inNew York. Where is home? What is thedefinition of home for you? And is theresomething new on the horizon? Are youhappy where you are and keeping yourselfin check by your current successes andcurrent place? Or is your mind onto thenext thing? Where's home? Do we haveanother hour? I think it's a fantastic question.Home to me is where my feet are, and atthe same time, it means that I feel athome in motion,andI feel at home on a plane where I'm verycreative and feel very comfortableunlike other people.But it goes by stages, I suppose. I cancall New York City home. It's the placeI lived the longest in my life, anddespite some distance with certainthings, I feel very comfortablehere, and I'm lucky enough to be workingwith some freedom to move; and I spend afair amount of time back home in Galiciaand Spain, where I also feel at home. Soit's a difficult question to answer whenHome is not a place; it's a state ofmind and always in transition. You mayhave called it a difficult question toanswer, but you’ve answered itbeautifully because home is where yourfeet are. It's gorgeous. Absolutelygorgeous. And I’m so happy we’ve met. I’m so happy we’ve had this conversationand all the other conversations we had inthe past and the conversations we willhave in the future because there’s somuch we have in common. And I just hopethat people have listened tothe conversation all the way to herebecause it’s beenbeautiful. So thank you. Thank you so much. I enjoyed it verymuch, and I hope to see you soon.Thank you.[Music]Thank you for listening to this episodeof the Daring Creativity Podcast. I’d loveto know your thoughts, questions, andsuggestions. So please get in touch viathe email in the show notes or socialchannels. This episode was produced andpresented by me, Brad Malinage. Theaudio production was done by Neil Maifrom 7 Million Banks Podcast. Thank you,and I hope to see you on the next. Episode.[Music]If you enjoy this episode and would likemore accessible resources to help youdiscover your daring creativity, you canpick up one of my books on themes ofmindful creativity, creativebusiness, branding, and graphic design.Every physical book purchase comes witha free digital bundle, including anebook and audiobook to make the contentaccessible wherever you are and whateveryou do. To get 10% off your order, visitnovemberuniverse.co.ukand use the code podcast. Have a lookaround and start living daringly.[Music], Dare to redefine success - Pablo Honey, Radim Malinic, 01k1c7k7yb9k9vakabn1dsef0g.