DevRel and Conferences - Michelle "MishManners" Duke  ## Metadata - Author: [[Francesco Ciulla]] - Full Title: DevRel and Conferences - Michelle "MishManners" Duke - Category: #articles - Document Note: --- tags: - #DevRel - #Conferences - #PersonalBranding Author: Michelle "MishManners" Duke Source: YouTube Interview Reference: [DevRel and Conferences - Michelle Duke](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrlWKYpTMI4) date created: 2025-08-22 20:10 --- # Title: DevRel, Conferences, and Content Creation with Michelle "MishManners" Duke ## Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📖 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🔍 DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🔍 SEO Evaluation](#-seo-evaluation) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) --- ## 📝 Summary Michelle Duke ("MishManners"), GitHub Developer Advocate, shares her **nonlinear journey into tech**, her experience balancing conferences, content creation, and personal life, and the role of **community, passion, and planning** in sustaining a DevRel career. She emphasizes **time management, authenticity, and personal branding** while breaking down tips for public speaking, content creation, and avoiding burnout. --- ## 📖 Main Content Michelle’s path moved from a **chemistry background → event coordination → hackathons → AI startup → GitHub advocacy**. Key themes: - Conferences are about **community energy and visibility**, not perfection. - Content creation is diverse: Twitch, GitHub blogs, YouTube shorts, TikTok, Dev.to posts. - **Personal branding**: consistency across channels, authenticity, energy, and passion. - **Balance**: planning breaks, time blocking, and partner/team support to sustain high output. - **Teaching & sharing**: audiences want speakers to succeed—start at meetups and scale. --- ### 🗒️ Notes - [00:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrlWKYpTMI4&t=4): Michelle’s first public speaking conference (Code Europe, 2022). - [06:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrlWKYpTMI4&t=399): Frustration with weak programming education—practical skills missing. - [08:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrlWKYpTMI4&t=529): Transition via event management → hackathons → AI startup. - [12:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrlWKYpTMI4&t=776): GitHub recognized her advocacy before she realized it herself. - [15:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrlWKYpTMI4&t=911): Balancing work, travel, and planning a 200+ guest wedding in four months. - [19:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrlWKYpTMI4&t=1143): Planning, time management, and knowing limits are key. - [24:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrlWKYpTMI4&t=1460): Celebrating rest and time off as career-sustaining wins. - [29:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrlWKYpTMI4&t=1797): Wedding project managed with GitHub Projects + Copilot. - [35:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrlWKYpTMI4&t=2140): Tips for public speaking—audience wants you to succeed, start with meetups. - [42:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrlWKYpTMI4&t=2568): Don’t aim to be the “best,” aim to provide clarity + action items. - [46:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrlWKYpTMI4&t=2790): Weekly content cycle—short videos, GitHub blogs, DevPost contributions. - [52:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrlWKYpTMI4&t=3137): Developer advocacy thrives on variety and “wearing many hats.” - [57:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrlWKYpTMI4&t=3467): Encouragement—anyone can speak or contribute if they start somewhere. --- ## 📖 References - GitHub Copilot resources. - GitHub Release Radar blogs. - Dev.to community posts. - NDC & RenderATL conference talks. --- ## 🗣️ Paraphrase 1. **Original**: “People want to see you succeed; no one wants you to fail on stage.” **Paraphrase**: Audiences are supportive—they want speakers to thrive, not stumble. 2. **Original**: “If you only do one thing, I’d burn out; I need variety.” **Paraphrase**: A narrow focus leads to monotony—sustainable work requires diverse tasks. --- ## 📰 Newsletter 🎤 **DevRel, Energy, and Personal Branding** This week we spotlight **Michelle “MishManners” Duke** from GitHub. Her nonlinear journey—from chemist to Developer Advocate—is proof that careers in tech can bloom from unexpected roots. 💡 Highlights: - Hackathons as a gateway to community and DevRel. - Tips for public speaking: start small, be authentic, focus on clarity. - Time management hacks: plan downtime, block tasks, celebrate rest. - GitHub for life management—yes, even wedding planning with Projects + Copilot! 👉 Catch her talks at NDC London, State of Open Con, and NDC Sydney. 🔗 Watch full conversation: [YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrlWKYpTMI4) --- ## ✅ Action Items - Position GoDaddy’s OSPO advocacy by highlighting **multi-path career journeys** like MishManners’. - Build **training modules for first-time conference speakers** in WordPress/OSS communities. - Use Michelle’s GitHub Projects example to teach **non-code project management in open source**. - Promote **rest and recovery culture** in contributor engagement programs. - Model personal branding workshops on her **consistency and authenticity** strategy. --- ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Developer Advocates with **multichannel personal branding** sustain longer community impact. - Conferences retain attendees when speakers offer **actionable takeaways vs. abstract hype**. ### 📊 Methodology - Survey new DevRel practitioners on energy sustainability. - Compare conference engagement between talks with and without **action-item slides**. ### ❓ Questions - Can personal branding directly correlate with OSS contributor onboarding? - What role does **rest culture** play in preventing burnout in DevRel? ### 🔮 Future Research - Longitudinal study on **DevRel career sustainability**. - Explore GitHub Projects as **cross-discipline event tools** (education, weddings, non-profits). ### 💡 Implications - Could influence OSS contributor retention strategies. - Adds legitimacy to **DevRel as a hybrid discipline** bridging tech, teaching, and community. --- ## 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment - Visual: Some—GitHub demos; could add **infographics**. - Aural: Strong—interview format. - Verbal: High—rich storytelling. - Physical: Minimal—suggest adding **hands-on DevRel exercises**. - Logical: Moderate—time management frameworks. - Social: Strong—community & teamwork focus. - Solitary: Some—encourages reflection on burnout. - Naturalistic: None—opportunity to connect rest with natural cycles. --- ## 📊 Accessibility Assessment - ✅ Transcript provided. - ❌ No captions on visuals → recommend **full captioning**. - ❌ No alt-text for visual references. - ✅ Conversational structure aids clarity. --- ## 🌍 DEIB Assessment - ✅ Inclusive, global framing of conferences. - ❌ Limited discussion of **non-Western developer advocacy experiences**. - ✅ Promotes accessibility in public speaking entry points (meetups). - Recommendation: add **neurodiversity-friendly talk prep tips**. --- ## ✅ Logical Validity - Strong **causal reasoning**: burnout prevention → career longevity. - Uses **sound analogies** (wedding/event planning ~ project management). - Avoids fallacies: no false dilemmas or red herrings. - Tone: **energetic, inclusive, encouraging**. --- ## 🔍 DARVO Analysis - Deny: ❌ None—acknowledges difficulty, doesn’t downplay. - Attack: ❌ None—uplifts others. - Reverse Victim/Offender: ❌ None—focuses on support and empowerment. Tone: supportive, not defensive. --- ## 🔍 SEO Evaluation - Keywords: ✅ “DevRel,” “conferences,” “GitHub,” “personal branding.” - Title: ✅ Clear, keyword-rich. - Meta: ❌ Add concise description. - Headers: ✅ Structured with keywords. - Internal links: ❌ Could link GitHub blogs. - External lin - Summary: The content is a conversation between two individuals, Francesca and Michelle, who are hosting a live stream. They discuss how they met at a conference, Michelle's background in tech, and her journey to becoming a developer. Michelle shares her experiences running hackathons and starting her own AI company before eventually joining GitHub. - URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrlWKYpTMI4 and we should be live hi everyone and finally this is an I think the most waited episode on the whole Channel we have been waiting for this for one year and a half so it was May 2022 my first ever conference as a public speaker I had the honor to be in the same conference with Michelle and we said let's do a live stream next week of course and then we are here here and our but you know zow but we are here so hi everyone Hi chrish so Michelle how are you please introduce yourself I'm super excited for this episode let's get started hi everyone I'm so excited to thank you all so much for being here this is really exciting as Francesca said like we met at uh code Europe back in 2022 and we're like yeah let's do a live stream I'm a twitch streamer I don't usually do much YouTube live but do a lot of twitch and some Instagram videos and stuff and I said yeah let's do it and I was like I think I might be away next week we'll Tee It Up for some time and here we are like pretty much two years later so uh really excited that we could finally get here I'm actually here in London so we're on the same time zone which is what made this so much easier so I guess to introduce myself I'm an Aussie so uh that's why this has taken so long so I'm often on Australian time zone which is literally the opposite of the current time over were in so right now I think it's 2 3:00 a.m. 3:00 a.m. right now in Australia so you were never getting me on at this time unless I came over here so I'm Michelle or Mish manners I'm a developer Advocate at GitHub and do lots of conferences and speaking as well so I'm actually here in London for a conference right now which is why I was able to put this together and be part of it I'm sorry so excited yes the secret is that Michelle just came to London just to have a decent time zone and make this live stream so that's great use of my flying time it takes a very long time to fly over you I always I always say that I have only good friends in Australia and Japan because if you can manage to be a friend from Europe to someone in Australia it means that we are good friends and before we start I have a little surprise for Michelle do you know do you remember this I do remember those oh my gosh there so cool that was so much fun too I had such fun with that stuff what Bo need to do that this is what this is what I was about to think and also we talk many many pictures I think and then we met I remember you with a superg girl custom but where I can't remember where was that do you remember I remember you with a Supergirl costume but I can't remember the conference which one the Supergirl costume I wore at uh so I wanted a few times the first time I wore it was super hack so it was a hackathon around uh like getting young girls to be superheroes at technology so that seemed like a very great idea to buy a Supergirl costume for but I recently wore it at Renda ATL last year so in uh America in the middle of the Year there was one of the days was a super was either superheroes or like I think actually you know what it was just cosplay I think it was just a cosplay day and because I was traveling and I do actually have lots and lots of cosplay costumes but they all have big weapons and they take up like an entire Suitcase by themselves so I was like what's like quite that packs small and travels well and it was my stup girl costume so I ended up taking my super girl costume wear it to run to ATL last year nice nice and now I remember I'd also be a speaker at R ATL this year in a few months so looking for looking forward announced fers yet that's exciting yes I've been announced yes okay Michelle I think now we are ready now we have some time for the two of us because we met at the conference but we know that the conference is like like messy we have the whole in a hurry we've been moving from City to City at code Europe so now I have finally some time just to know more about you and I'd like to start with my usual question I started with so it's like how did you get how did you get into Tech how did you become a developer would like to know more your story okay so uh strap in everyone this is a quite a a decent length story but I came to Tech in a it's really interesting I people always say they come to Tech in a different way like so many people come to Tech in so many different ways isn't that I feel like that's just the norm now going to Tech in a a non-generic way or a nonlinear way so a lot of people do like you know a boot camp or they might do an IT course or studied at uni and then they get a graduate role and kind of go that way I feel like a lot of people do that but then there's a whole other group of people who come into to Tech from a completely different angle and I fall into that bucket so at University I did a science degree chemistry major so I actually am a certified chemist by um by background which is like completely random when you're think about like I totally use my chemistry degree every single day of my work I actually don't but you know so I did that at University and the great thing about the University I studied at which is Melbourne University in Australia uh is it's called the Melbourne model which is modeled off the Oxford model in England which is cool come I'm here and what that is designed to do is to not just teach you uh the discipline that you are majoring in which for me was chemistry it's designed to also give you a broader understanding of other areas of for me science but also other areas outside science as well so 25% of your course is called breath so you choose uh subjects completely outside of Science and then 50% of your course is other science subjects So within those other science subjects I did uh engineering like not not software engineering but uh like engineering engineering like building engineering mechanical engineering that kind of engineering um I did do some software engineering uh courses except those subjects at University with more Google spreadsheet and less python than when I look back I'm like how are they like programming 101 courses like we didn't learn git we didn't learn Version Control we didn't even learn how to deploy a website right like I learned how to write HTML I was relatively good at it and like literally still two years later I was going how do I actually get my code onto the web though like they never taught you any of that they taught you six weeks of Google spreadsheet which is totally programming not and then they teach I thought the next I think next six weeks is like XML which you know so useful so I did programming at University but I wouldn't really call it useful and I also did uh psychology I did a double major in geology and did so many other areas of science basically every area of science except biology because I didn't like it and physics because I literally couldn't fit it in I really wanted do physics actually but yeah so I was able to do all these other things so I do have kind of like innate knowledge of like various areas of science including some computer programming and then when I was finished my degree I was one of those I don't know what to do now and I also really like chemistry but I didn't want to be stuck in a lab all day I actually prefer doing the experiment and then talking about it this what I like doing so I was like I wanted to do a um science communication uh degree and I looked around didn't quite work out so I ended up doing a master of global Media communication and through that I combined my passion for science technology uh also anime and gaming so I literally wrote Master's essays and thesises on those uh topics so I do have Master's essays written about video games yes it's a legitimate thing so that took me to you know the end of my University so by the time I finished University I had two degrees a chemistry degree and a media and Communications master's degree and again I went oh God all these great qualifications and I have no idea what I actually want to do and no one wants to hire me because I was way too overqualified for most uh jobs because I don't want someone with a master's degree because that costs more money or way too underqualified because I didn't have that magical five years of experience that people want even as in a junior role like I saw a meme recently right it was someone teaching a baby JavaScript and they're like well I'm teaching my baby JavaScript so they can you know be the 10year experience junor programmer which is apparently what you need for a lot of jobs now right you know Junior job hiring we want some with 10 years experience actually this is really funny one someone recently posted they wanted a job for someone with 20 years experience in kubernetes and we're like kubernetes hasn't even been around for 20 years like anyway so I was like what am I going to do and I ended up getting um head hunted by Melbourne University's Science and Technology division to run their events and programming courses um and when I say programming I don't mean computer programming I mean like programs like uh arts and uh science exhibitions and things like that and so through that I got exposure to so many different things I got exposure to entrepreneur uh courses that the University was running and also other programs are running I got exposure like we had hadn't hosted TED talks and so many things I got really involved in uh you know out of the box Bo thinking and you know thinking about startups and thinking about technology and science and future and AI like we were talking about AI back then too so this was really exciting stuff and then by the end of that year I ended up starting my own company so I kind of got into Tech like kind of through doing like the events stuff so by meeting other people that I was involved in and then really got into Tech when I started my own um artificial intelligence startup although if you want to backtrack little bit I probably fell into some of the techto so some of the events that I was running um somebody walked in one day and this is where I get my um one of my alist is one of my um nicknames is the hackathon queen so uh someone walked into we've been running all these events we've been hosting TED talks and things like that and someone said hey can you run a hackathon and everyone in the room kind of looked around each other went I don't I don't know what a hackathon is and I could have put my head up went I know what a Aon is I'll run one I'll put it all together this is me having been to one hackathon in my life at that point and I was like yeah I'll do it be fine and they're like cool we want it in one month and we want it in person with like 200 people and I was like sure let's do this so uh I put this uh hackathon together it was really good this was six months into doing my um events and coordinator thingy and it was a massive success heaps of other companies there with two heaps of other sponsors they all came up to me and said we want you to run our hackathon so that first hackathon was in August of 2015 by the end of 2015 I had run over 25 hackathons um which was incredible like that's more than a hackathon a week which is been insane so uh that's how I um got fell into the hackathons and that's probably where I really got into Tech as well so uh doing that so out of one of those hackathons I started an a AI company uh GitHub got involved in terms of like um spons not sponsoring in terms of monetary sponsoring but like providing me with stickers and you know giving me information that I could like you know tell other people about this cool GitHub platform thing where you can host your code and where you can collaborate with others and work on your code and that kind of stuff and then it really just kind of took off from there so all into 2016 I was running my AI company running hackathons speaking like you know all this kind of stuff and then GitHub uh said to me hey we really want uh to bring you on and do some more of this stuff with you so I started doing a little bit more work with them going to meetups and things like that and then fast forward a few years I officially joined GitHub as a developer advocate in the middle of 2019 it took them a while to convince me to actually say yes to working for them fulltime but um a little bit of a roundabout way but that's that's kind of how I fell into develop advocacy was just running hacks the community being part of it like I was I was essentially doing develop advocacy with Without Really knowing that that's what I was doing and GitHub really LED that and they just wanted to hire me and you know and do that so that's what I did and you know five years later I'm still here doing the same thing because I love it so much nice nice so first of all this is great I also I listen to this also later after the the podcast because you said so many things that it's enough like for a whole life like in this like 10 10 years and this is also a proof that for example I also say that usually a developer Advocate it's better to just like attract company because you have no idea what a company needs but maybe they know what they need from from you because they see you in action they see what you do and you did the mind-blowing things I think people like in the chat exploded and and this is like another proof of like just doing well focusing on community aspect or creating and doing stuff and then companies will just literally hunt you I don't know they just I don't know really want I mean it's so true like even before they hired me some of the um the the ladies on the team that was that ended up hiring me they came along to one of my talks because like oh we've heard you're really good and we want to sit on sitting on your talk and then after talk I went no wonder we like everyone at our company want you you are so incredible and so amazing we can't wait to actually have you in our team and I was like yes nice nice amazing nice uh yes so Michelle let's talk about your twins and your sisters because I want to know like how do you find the time to do everything that you do question and you and if you follow her also on Instagram like she does so many things quid live stream uh presentations public speaking the ra coding I don't know like I also like I'm also considering like a person who does many things okay but I think that I don't know I want to know like how do you manage these things just just to give you an idea she got she got married I think it's not a secret anymore some weeks ago she was that close to organize this live stream work perfect like let's do this like the the same the week before my wedding I said like no sh let's wait take your time please because I want you to relax so I want to know like something for you like how do you manage this this things and how do you do you go with the with this Flo it's this is very interesting I really want to know yeah so there's a question in the chat actually literally on this which is how do I find time to do everything I see you spending multiple plates at the same time work travel streaming Etc um and to top it off as you did mention I got married last year um and it was seriously last year was an absolute welled year for us we bought a house um in March moved in in uh end of July so we spent that time uh you know cleaning up the old house packing like you know moving and stuff moved in a week after moved in my husband prop my now husband proposed to me and then we're like cool let's get married in December so we literally like just in four months we uh well we mostly me but he help we um yeah we finished moving planned a wedding had a like bridal shower like you know did everything and like got married in four months and we had like a full wedding so everyone was like you must have just had a small wedding I was like no there were 200 people 250 people at our wedding so it was not small by any means um and everyone's like how did you do this I'm like well technically it was only two months of actual planning because I was traveling for 10 of those weeks um and also playing Sport and still managing to do everything so um yeah thank you for congrats in the chat but yeah this uh this exact question actually came up this morning here we're at this conference and DC London and everyone was like okay M you've got to tell us these secrets like you know you flew here like it's more than 20 hours to get from Australia to London you landed at like 5:00 a.m. London time you would have been awake most of the time and then you just like went to the hotel had a shower and then just went out for the whole day and just start day like what it's like and I don't get jet lag so that's one thing but I don't know I just think that for me I like I'm clearly an extrovert which doesn't just mean like yay happy in your face and that kind of thing um extrovert actually refers to how you get your energy so an introvert they might be happy and excited and like this on camera but then they need to go turn the camera off and go sit in a room by themselves for two hours to like kind of recharge to energy but I get my energy from being around people like I'm going to finish this and then just go go out there and go mingle with everyone um yeah so that's one thing and then everyone said no no there's got to be more to it uh my old boss he said um I either don't do as much as I say I do and he said well that's wrong because I travel with you and I know you do that much or you must be a robot and I was like okay I guess I'm a robot then and then someone else has said no we just reckon her body just natur produces cocaine that's the other thing I don't drink caffeine at all like I don't drink coffee I don't drink black tea I don't drink Coke or energy drinks any of that like my you don't drink at all you don't you don't drink at all because you're a robot you don't drink at all because you're a robot okay no we know I love I love the um the comments in the chat about Indian weddings Indian weddings are so fun with just like all the people but also they have it over an entire week um so we did our wedding over over two days which was yes I can feel the competition here yes I can see well coming back to the actual question which is how do you do all this I think the key is um balance which I probably don't have that you know crazy down pat but um planning planning and time management is you know actually being able to have you know look at everything go right what can I fit in and I know I know I'm not normal in fact uh in October last year so literally two months before getting married and um I spent pretty much all of October traveling I was on a plane for 120 hours I did three Around the World trips in three weeks um some of the locations I flew like 30 something hours was on the ground for like 15 hours and flew all the way back um like I know that's just like not quite normal but I don't know I've always had lots and lots of energy but being able to plan those things and go okay what do I actually have time for but I think really like more importantly is actually planning in uh and I need to get much better at this myself so this is nice it's going live on camera and I can now look back and say I said I said I was going to do that um is actually planning um downtime planning breaks um you know it's actually easier being married now I can be like oh sorry I've actually got to spend some time with my husband um but you know actually they're stepping back and going okay we've got lots of things coming out and actually our um GitHub developer relations team is really good at doing this they're really good at saying hey you know you probably noticed January is you know a bit of a downtime there's not a lot of conferences on take this time to rest and recharge like if you need some time off go and do like do this because you know these next few months are going to be really hectic so looking at those kind of things and going all right when when am I going to have a lot of work on so therefore I need to rest and like recharge before that happens so I can actually get through all this but then it's also you know being able to say no to thanks which I'm not that great at uh but also just being able to plan in time even when you're traveling and doing all these things like plan in time for yourself like everyone went out last night and I was like oh yeah you guys all go out and have some fun you know I went out with them for a couple hours and I was like you know what now I've I've been awake for 204 hours and haven't actually slept for two days I'm probably going to go back to my hotel and sleep so you know just being able to say that and you know if you're with good people and you know being around the tech space and developer Advocates people are good like to you they'll say yeah that's fine you know some people might get a bit you know should be going out with us and things like that but like you know if people are actually telling actually don't like you for those things they're not the right people to be around anyway so you know take time to uh plan in breaks to plan out what's going to happen um to try and look at things go okay that that is too much for me like know your own limits too like for me I know that I can kind of pack a bit more in than other people might be able to but know your own limits and say like oh no that that that amount of stuff in that short amount of time is just going to be too much and then being able to say to people hey look you know I'm going to go back to my hotel and have a rest and that's totally fine so yeah I just think I can do that and then like what I'm saying to having a part that can support your travel is a you know big big green flag so yeah my husband's really great like you know this is actually my first trip away since we' been married we only got married in the nth of December um since my first trip away like missing him a lot but also you know he's like no this is your part of your job and you know you should you should go do these things he did say he's like you probably shouldn't do as much as what you did in October last year that's that's not good for you like so having a person or um you know a partner who can support you in doing that but also can pull you up when you need to be pulled up CU like for me I kind of say yeah I can do that I can do that I can do that and he kind of looks at it and goes I think that might be a little bit too much um so either whether it's your life partner or even your boss or your colleagues if they're telling you hey you might be doing a little bit too much now at this point in time like kind of take that on board as a bit of advice and feedback and go okay maybe I haven't doing a bit too much um and actually planning those things because as much as when I was doing startup I basically didn't sleep you I was working my normal job you know 700 a.m. in the morning to like 11: at night because of running events and then work you on my startup from like midnight to like 5:00 a.m. and then sleeping for a couple hours and going to work like sure you might be able to do that for a couple weeks maybe in a couple of months but you're eventually going to burn out and you kind of want to avoid that burnout right is and the way to do it is to be really good at planning scheduling and knowing your limits I absolutely agree today I celebrate my three months without seeing a plane because I've been traveling a lot in 2023 so I'll start traveling again in five days but still I'm celebrating this three months in a row without taking a plane which is that's actually pretty nice I I like this idea too of celebrating the other things like some people will celebrate um you know uh not writing a blog post for a certain number of weeks or not doing something because for them it's it's taking that time to rest and recharge and I think that I think we need to do a bit more of that celebrating like celebrating our wins but also celebrating people taking time off and we actually do that good hob too someone's taking time off someone will celebrate in that chat and be like you know shout out to this person's actually taking leave like this is a good thing and we should celebrate that I think we do need a bit more of that um in our in our workplac in our culture at the moment yes yes I agree and I think that yes handling these breaks it's it's really the key if we want to last like for longer for 20 years 10 years that's really the key and I I think that like I pressed by like my myself like a lot in 2023 because traveling with full-time job and other stuff I said Okay that was enough and it's great that in January there are not conferences actually it's really great so yes and yes absolutely also talking about the time off I'm about to go in Japan in two in two months with my girlfriend two weeks on absolutely time off great so traveling like this also with your partner and yes I think we can make a whole episode about how our partner can really change our Direction really boost us like so this is a great plus great great great you have oh actually no you're going after me we're going to Japan too for our honeymoon we had to like push our honeymoon back because we're doing so much but we're going in um February and this is another good tip too is we going in at the end of February for three weeks and I just you know we've got a really good culture in GitHub to which is you know I set my slack uh status to I'm not available and people respect that which I think is really good another good tip is to go somewhere where you literally don't have internet and that's what we did in January we went on a um a five day hike in New Zealand and there's no internet so if somebody wanted to contact us um they couldn't and I think that's that's actually a really healthy thing is to take that break even when you are taking leave is to take that break and that step back from like from technology in general as well and just dis try like disconnect as much as you can from work help him you know hopefully you've got a good culture in your in your company or in your team that if if you are on leave that they will respect that and I know that that people respect that when I'm you know on leave at GitHub and if someone is going to reach out to me either by phone or text whatever it's because something really is on fire and I've never had that I've never had somebody reach out for because someone's on fire like it just means that um someone else is hand and there was like one of my friends who used to work I think he still works IBM every time You' send him a message and he's out of office came back you know how like somebody was out of office are like you know contact me did this or if you really need me you can get me he out of office was I'm out of office if you need to contact someone contact my team because they are very capable people and I've left them in charge goodbye and I was like that is such a good attitude to have right and if you've got good people in your company and your team hopefully you've got that uh I think that like that safety net if you will to say yes I can go away and it doesn't matter that these things either aren't going to get done because they don't need to be done way away or someone else is going to do them for you um and I remember my boss saying too he's like Mish go on leave don't do anything the work will still be here when you get back and it doesn't need to get shipped while you're gone and I was like this is so good nice and I think it's one of the reasons why after five years you are still working there it's it's a very this is super super super important amazing I really love that so I have one quick question before we keep going with thein conferences do you think that organizing a hakon helped you in organizing your wedding like so fast that's a great one uh probably yes um so for our wedding it was 127 page document that I wrote up uh with multiple like that was like the master document there were multiple spreadsheets and there's GitHub project tracking board and GitHub issues for our wedding and all these kind of things so I really used all the technology at my disposable um I I did say to people like yes I've done I've organized hackathons but I was also just a general event coordinator too like there was no way I wasn't going to organize my wedding uh so I think it it definitely did it was definitely probably more the event stuff rather than the hackathon specific uh because there's lots of things that you know happened but it was really funny I said to someone today I'm like you know how you do like a retro on an event or a hackathon or whatever I did a retro on our wedding I'm like I ever need to do I'm gonna have another wedding I mean Max and I might have another free wedding just for fun but yeah so people have been asking me like how did you this how I do that I'm like well I just did what worked for us and what I knew worked and yeah I've got 127 page bound document and over I looked at our folder of like files there's over like 700 files in our folder of like different things and it was it was bit insane I don't I honestly I'm Looking Back Now I honestly don't know how I did so much travel so much normal work and plan away in four months and still played sport we had all our finals like October and November like the month of finals and all kinds of things it was yeah it was rather insane I don't know I think the secret is to to not to don't stop thinking how let's just do it and then I think okay the key is this is a good tip for anyone who planning a wedding it's probably a good tip for events in general is make quick decisions both me and my husband we kind of knew what we want but we don't sit around mulling for days and days about a decision it's like if it took more than five minutes to make a decision then it was probably not even worth making a decision for like we made decisions very quickly on well he wanted how he wanted it and that kind of thing and so nothing took forever like I had my dress um one week after we got engaged and it was on my first fitting so you know it was perfect planning your wedding with GI up issues and GI up copile it's exactly what I did so I built I built my whole wedding website it's it's live on Twitch so I do stream on Twitch so twitch.tv Mish manners I built the whole website in eight hours using GitHub co-pilot um yes I can code and I can you know develop stuff but it probably would have taken me a whole week maybe two to build it by myself but using GitHub copile and a little bit of help from a senior developer I was able to build the whole website in eight hours so that's pretty cool you can actually go and see it because it's an open website now so I'll put it in the chat for anyone there you go it's amazing it's amazing I thinking that to so basically you so if you just came on this channel yes we are giving a giving away wedding tips while talking about the cont conferences so this is the the level of tips we can have if you want to share any link just put them in the private chat I can share it because we have this P link but I see some analogies here organizing my wedding using GitHub amazing amazing GitHub projects GitHub copilot GitHub issues best thing ever I'm actually doing a talk on it not specifically for the wedding but we also use the GitHub project board to move the house um and I'm actually doing a talk on on that um NDC Sydney and because of that multiple other teams and companies have moved to GitHub projects because they saw how useful it is for like not just development projects but also understanding how non-developers can use GitHub and have oversight of what the um development team is actually doing so that will be a great talk and we'll be recorded as well nice nice I don't know if if you can put something of like some pictures of your wedding in a presentation I think that will be a really like wow moment totally [Laughter] nice nice so by the way if you want to drop any question if you want to ask Michelle anything this is your moment so drop them down in the meanwhile I saw you on stage you are absolutely rock on stage now I remember I also recorded some of your a part of your talk on at render TL I don't know if I ever send you the the recording but I think it's still on the phone but I can recorded some pictures because you proposed like I think I also won some giveaway I can remember something like that now I remember at render ATL I watched and your presentation it was about it was all about the game development with big files because I remember it was like I have revamped that talk since then too and I have actual solutions for you now too nice nice nice but I remember because I had this I had those some of those issues in game game development it was so it was also very useful one I would like you to give to give maybe in the the audience some some tips for for doing like a good presentation or to get started like how did how did you get started with with public speaking was that with the guab no it was before no I've been doing public speaking for a very long time um even back at high school I was like Regional debating champion and things like that like I've just been a public speaker for a very long time um something that I've always love people always say like how do you get over nerves and things like that on stage I'm like I'm really soor but I'm the wrong person to ask that um I know most people even though they've been giving talks for maybe decades they still get nervous on stage it's just a normal thing I just don't I don't know why I have this I'm again I'm weird if you haven't figured out I'm not a normal person um actually one of my co-founders did say that when I die scientists are going to dissect me and figure out the actual magic that makes me work probably figure out some you know new human Discovery but anyway that's beside the point um but yeah I've been doing it for a very long time I don't get nervous on stage for me the stage is like the space that I feel really it's weird but I feel really comfortable on stage I just I love being on stage having a AUD which is why I love hosting and mcing um probably more than speaking actually I really love hosting and mcing uh which I still do quite a bit of but I just love having the audience in the palm of your hand and you can literally say or ask anything and I'll do it I don't know there's so many places you could do that but I guess I also I love teaching people I love not so much teach I also love sharing I love sharing stories and knowledge I love like giving people uh new ideas and tools and things I can go and use like you know if you've you've seen me talk so you know that like I'm genuinely passionate about things things I talk about that's because I like get I get really excited about everything which is why I've always been the spokesperson for our startups as well because when you're trying to sell something that's brand new and you can talk about in such a passionate way and not just come off as a sales pitch it just makes so much difference and I suppose I can do that because I actually really genuinely care about the things I'm talking about and if I get really excited it's because I'm actually excited about thing I'm talking about um so I guess some tips is um for if you're trying to get started specifically is submit for a conference but you probably want to start not Giant and Big like start at meetups meetups are great places to start um and some people often will say like oh I'm I'm just not sure because like what what if it goes wrong or what if this happens I'm like people are there to support you like no one actually wants to see someone fail on stage right like either at a talk or a meet up or conference or anything no one actually wants to see it on fail people want to see you do well so you can rest assured the audience want you to win and want you to succeed so that's always a good thing so always think about that too if you're you know a bit worried about or what if I do fail like people are going to support you I can't tell you about the times that things have gone wrong during my talk whether it's you know Supply Demo's not working or the tech not working or the room being too hot or whatever like you know things go wrong and people are just like yeah you doing great just keep going I I mean I just do anyway but you know people are there to support you so that's the first thing uh start with the Meetup because it's much more casual uh they're usually not recorded either so something does go wrong no one's GNA know and I mean people might talk about it but people usually don't to be honest if some like people talk about the good things um so I started to meet up much more casual much more laidback much more chill um also meetups are much more specific so you can really get in get in and start with something that you're passionate about so that's how thing CH something you're passionate about because if it's if it's something you enjoy then it's something that you probably are going to be excited about so therefore that's going to come across when your talk and interestingly I was I watched um sing on the um plane you know that like U the musical style uh movie from illumination the same people that did top and the Elephant in that is like really shy and doesn't want to sing and the koala who's the producer says to her is it something you love doing and she's like well yes I do he's like well if you just start then you're doing the thing you love so then it'll be all good then like it'll kind of keep going so I think that's you know the same when you talk about something you enjoy so you know she loved singing but didn't want to do it in front of other people and most of you all love talk about the thing that you you know you love whether it's your you know whe it's a project or whatever it happens to be is we love talking about it so if you just start as well and you do it once then and start talking about things you enjoy doing then you'll probably enjoy it uh yeah seeing the movie yeah like the um animated movie with the elephants and the koals and all those other kind of things um so that's one another tip another tip is uh be a bit specific when you actually submit your talk and the thing like you talk give your talk about so give the audience tell them what they're going to learn give them some action items to take away like don't just tell something really cool and just kind of leave the audience hang me it's like but what do I do now do I like especially this happened a lot with startups like startups are tell me about this really cool problem that they've solved this really great solution I'll be like okay bye and I'll be like but you solved a thing that I have problem problems with like do I sign up to your website do I contact you about this is this something I should wait till it comes like what do you want me to do you just told me about this thing that's really cool right so give me an action item to take away from that um and then tell the whether it's the you know if it's a Meetup Group tell the organizer that you're asking to present for like why should you be up there talking about the thing you're talking about like do you work for the company do you have experience as companies there's a project you've had experience with like how's it going to be a little bit different to some of the other talks out there like the other thing too actually one of the guys said last night this this is really interesting we had this conversation last night he said last night you don't have to be the best speaker in the world and you don't have to be the best speaker about that particular topic you just have to be good enough that people lik it and enjoyed it and have a takeway from it so I think that's what a lot of people get caught up with they're like well what well you know why should I do it like what have what have I got to give like why why shouldn't this other person do it like you know there's you know maybe it's a talk about security and you've got like you know the top person in security but it's like they're not available all the time right um so I think the other thing is like don't feel like you have imposter syndrome right everyone started somewhere so just go for it like I think it's a bit similar with live streaming live streaming is a little bit different in the sense that like nobody has to say yes to you you can literally just turn on your camera and do it um but to be honest there are so many meetup groups out there looking for new speakers all the time um conferences are often looking for new speakers right so you know submit once you've done a couple of meetups and you feel little bit more confident submit for a conference like put in that call for speakers or that call for papers you know people want to see you know new faces all the time like yeah I do lots of talks but like I sometimes feel like someone might want to see someone else um so I think just so just to sum up like the and actually I read a Blog on this so I will will put it up um tips for speaky at conference or something like that I'll find it um but yeah to sum up like just like go for it just start somewhere realize that nearly everyone still gets nervous uh be a be a reason as to why you should speak on that topic like whether it's you've got experience running the project or it's a project that you're passionate about or you've just had um you know like the the thing we talked about last night was like you know there's so many net speakers so why should you do it it's like everyone has their own experience doing net as a developer everyone has their own experience in coming to uh the development pathway everyone has their own experience solving a problem or finding a solution or you know all those kind of stuff right so um yeah that be find I'll I'll find that site uh that uh tips to speak in a conference some of them but yeah just go for it I you know people always want to see new people so yes give it a shot love it I love it and I like the I like what you say that you don't have to be the the best because if we wait to become the best basically not even get it started you won't be the best like how did the best people become the best because they started somewhere right yes and yeah and also I think there is this misconception that if you the moment you do know the three steps and you on the stage you are the most knowledgeable person in the room room in a Tech conference that's absolutely impossible because probably there is someone maybe they they're not public speakers but they are super competent they are the really the best developer in the world I don't even try to be the best in the in the room maybe as a speaker it's like your duty is like try to convey a message so let's try to put things but uh I don't even try to be the best kind it's kind of like being a teacher right like there's really good teachers and there's like okay teachers it's like but we need teachers like one person can't teach the whole world like one person who is like you know an expert at that particular topic can't go around to every single conference like I've already told you how like busy I am you know speaking at conferences and stuff like right we need people to come and you know do more so never think that like H don't worry there's there's someone else that can do that all there you know if it's something you want to do I'm not saying you have to either like if public speaking is not your thing and you don't want to do it you don't have to do it either like it's also okay to not do it there's plenty of other ways to convey messages like you know blog posts and live streams and you know things like even if you don't want to be on camera or you don't want to talk blog posts and books and tutorials like they're great ways to teach people and that's like a one to many as well so absolutely absolutely sometimes I think about like you know the the vocal coach maybe they're not even singers but they focused on one thing to help someone maybe they're not the best singer in the world they uses the some singer as an example but it's just something different and this doesn't stop them from do it nice uh maybe we can talk five minutes we already 45 minutes time I I already knew the time of the flow with with with m Michelle cont content production what type of content you create personal branding I remember me getting invited for a personal branding pod video live stream and I Googled like what is personal branding like someone invited me they told me that I'm good at personal branding but let me Google it first so now I know what is it uh let's talk about like all your your stuff what you produce what you think it's good content and I don't I know this could could keep going for hours but let's try to just summarize because I think s the things I mainly do are uh blog post I'm also a journalist outside my job at GitHub as well um live streams so Twitch streaming not just for GitHub but U I do a lot of Twitch streaming on my own channel both uh video gaming I play games yes I'm a gamer and I also do live coding as well um Instagram videos and um like other social media videos mostly for GitHub I don't do too many of those myself I do a few um as like an influencers and stuff like that but most of them are um GitHub specific so if you want to see them check out the GitHub YouTube channel um the GitHub Tik Tok Channel and the GitHub Instagram Channel there's lots on there um and also uh I I would put public speaking in the content creation bucket as well um there's a few other videos that I do um as part of my content creation so like sort of slightly longer form videos and um similar to this although a bit shorter format and they're not usually live they're bit more produced so we do a few of those um so it depends on what what the goal of what we want is so I pretty much do a video a week for um like like a YouTube short or like a short Instagram real or Tik Tok usually do one of those a week for GitHub and then I often will do like another produce video that might be you know something about um like the what I'm doing currently is a GitHub cpilot for Enterprise like some what are the new things that get of crop pilot can do for Enterprise so that's like a a longer 5 to 10 minute video that I'm producing so there's that as well and then Dev post try and do those once a week and I also write um blogs on the GitHub blogs so we have a release radar that goes out once a month so that'll be going out uh this Friday and that's a Roundup of open- source projects and um that are shipping major version or they've just shipped major version releases there's a few other ones as well so like um part of my Dev post are we're doing community roundups as well so we're trying to take some of the things from the community and kind of give it out as like a newsletter and we're doing that weekly as part of our team so I sometimes jump in on that too that's probably a summary of the content creation and then there was a couple other question content creation um content production so the production and the content creation for me under one bucket so I both produce and create the content so for me to do a video like if franisco said me hey I need a 45 second YouTube short on top three things to do with GitHub Copa like sure I have it to you in an hour and a half like I can I script it uh shoot it uh do the screen capture put it together and then like export it within a couple hours that's kind of like the process and I can do all that in one go now that process can get drawn out depending on does someone need to review the script does someone need to review the video does someone need to add um other content do I need to get um you know uh admin privileges to something or well you know that's kind of how that production works and I've got Premier Pro skills just because I've developed them over many many many many many years of doing my own videos for journalism so and then onto your personal branding I think this is an interesting one because it's like kind of a little bit different for each PE person um for us our personal like growing I've been told at least that growing our personal brand helps GitHub because then bring more people to GitHub through our own brand um but for me my personal brand has been not just about GitHub as well so it's great to bring everyone to GitHub and doing all those things uh but GitHub is such a big thing like more people know about GitHub than they know about me right and this kind of you know personal brand I think in that sense is more important for a smaller startup so for me it's been about building that friend up so I can be a legitimate voice when I talk about um my reviews when I talk about um game tutorials or you know that kind of thing as part of my journalism but I kind of all kind of Blends in together because it's all in this science tech gaming space so um I did drop my um my yeah and Francesco dropped in the chat so mm. info like everything's there and I think if you're going to talk about personal branding it's about being consistent across all your channels so having a having a consistent messaging voice and understanding like what do you want to be as a personal brand so when people think about me they think about twitch streamer hackathon Queen like the person who does all the GitHub stuff and speaking like that's pretty much what I do right so you know personal brand is them is know someone being able to say like who is Miss and what does she do is like that kind of thing right and just being able to produce the content I think um solidifies what you're trying to say with your brand do that Mak sense oh it makes absolutely makes sense and I think that we can just summarize it like we know that I know I'm going super cliche but like be yourself like this is what personal branding is so don't try to copy or just do something just because someone else is doing the exact same thing it doesn't work like this you should not play golf because Tiger Woods play is golf it's it's it's different you can try different you get inspired so it's absolutely fine and yes for example we have I also do many things but for example for me when I focus on one thing at a time it works better than than focus on on different things you Michelle can go for example we have this one I don't know if you have an answer for this like for for your career for example do you benefit the most on doing many things or focusing on few ones this is the hard the1 million dollar question so for me me because of my the way that I function I can't just focus on one thing like if somebody said to me all right you are now only writing blogs that's all you're doing I'd be like that like no I'd be the most bored person ever and one of the reasons why I never thought I'd get a job growing up is because I was like I like too many things like how am I going to find a job where I get to do all the things I love and I'm literally in that job now like I get to do so many cool things as a developer advocate and you know as a um you know doing a few of my own things as well is like I get to write blogs and produce videos and you know I get to do all these cool things like travel the world and speak at the conferences about GitHub Co pilot and GitHub projects and the future of work and artificial intelligence and skills we need for you know develop resilience and all these kind of things right so I think it depends on you like if you are the type of person who likes to focus on doing the one thing all the time then do that like for me I I just can't I'm like a multi-person task like multitasking person even say I'm like if I'm sitting in a talk I can't just sit there and stare at the person listening to talk I have to be like either writing notes or doing tweets about it like that's how I engage right so I don't think there's like a one size fits all answer for that I think for me it's like but like the thing is like focusing when you're doing the thing so when I'm doing the video it's like I'm just I'm doing the video and then I'll finish that and then I'll go write my blog post and then I I mean I might not finish it but I might like okay end it at the day you save the draft and then go to nothing thing and come back to it so I think it's like when you block in time to do the task you are focusing on that task and then go to the next thing um so I think it's more about that rather than focusing all your time on just doing one thing at least for me because I would just get bored out of even if someone said to me all right all you do now is jump on planes and give talks I'd be like okay but what about the other cool stuff that I get to do like live streams and um you know I like writing blog posts because I that's that's what I like doing so I would be bored if someone just said you now just like flying on a plane and giving talks like okay that's a bit weird and also for me I burn out I burn out if I'm only doing the one thing because it's just so repetitive consist I know like a lot of people have nine to five jobs I mean like my husband for example he does the one thing all the time and that's what he likes like he likes routine because if somebody changes the routine everything just falls into a heap and like like you know some people like that was I'm like no I like being a bit more and is you can't tell like that suits my energy and my personality so find what works for you love it and first of all I loved that at some point you said like I can't do this like so at some point so basically at the end of the day we do what we can do in your case is doing many things at the same time I think at the skill of wearing many hats is perfect if you want to be in theil we we know I have many friends in the usually we wear like five 10 hats like doing different things and different activities so maybe it's not for everyone for example I can do different activities at the same time as a job for someone this could be like they could burn out by doing many things for example for me I can I'm now I'm trained I can I can do it yes inspiring and so on nice um Michelle I think we are close to the end of our first of all I'm happy because we made it so absolutely absolutely happy uh and so first of all best of luck with all your conferences I'm sure that we'll meet at some point I don't know if this here or next one but we will you know we will take some planes and at some point I've never been in Australia so far so maybe uni can help me in getting a conference there that would be amazing I don't know I think there are there are there are some in conferences and you might get them absolutely absolutely I need to use this as an excuse to come at some point what else you if you want you can drop let's let's try to drop and summarize this uh this first thing because we do many things you do really an amazing job um on many different things also an amazing person let me tell you like where you are like with Michelle you get all the energy the things it's amazing so Michelle Let's uh end this first collaboration next one we'll code something but let's let's finish this this one that sounds good I did just see a couple of comments there too and I did want to just like sum up what you just said then too with the whole like this isn't for everyone right like if some if some of you are sitting there going and I was seeing lots of um you know stuff in the chat like this is inspiring I'm so glad it's inspiring for you but take it as inspiration for what you want to do so if you're saying thinking you know for some other people in the chat if you're thinking this is just too much and I could never do that that's okay as well like you know take what we're saying as inspiration to go and do the thing that you want to do so if you don't want to do a talk that's fine like you know if you want to write a blog post for the first time like open it up and start writing that blog post and you know ship it out there and ask feedback like whatever you want to do like take this as inspiration that people want you to succeed and just you just got to give it a shot and you know there are people around to support you to do what you want to do thank you so much Michelle so really really really best of luck with all everything you have done again I took this picture also you gave me many stickers they they are there I'll take them from the next next time and yes so best of luck with all the things and I really wish you the best for this 202024 uh I didn't I'm not I'm disappointed because I didn't get like the the secret like the the like I don't know I have a clone here is here is m a sister I was expecting something is that there is no secret like I know I'm a little bit different but pretty like anyone can do this like anyone can you know if if that's what you want to do anyone can speak at a conference I have a good time and just be awesome because yeah if you just if you do what you love and do what you love well and ask people around you for support and feedback like you can do whatever you want I agree I agree so thank you so much Michelle if you want to say hi and bye in the chat you can you can do it now are are you planning something like uh is there is something like coming up so how can people like follow you you said that at the end of the presentation it should be like a call to action so there we go how can people keep following you yeah yeah definitely so you dropped my um my Mish manners. info in the chat so if you want to drop that one more time that's a link to all my social medias so if you follow me on social media you'll see what I'm up to you'll see that I you know I'll post my blogs and videos and that kind of thing um follow GitHub as well so GitHub on uh Instagram uh Instagram YouTube Tik Tok are kind of like our main ones at the moment for like videos and things um but follow us on dev 2 Dev do2 um well it's actually just called Dev Dev 2 like we do some really great blog posts not just me as well like there's other people my team who write stuff uh so I often tweet them out on um tweet them Z them X them what are we calling it now whatever the X like for me is out there too so um if you follow me like I I will post around all the things I'm doing and blog posts I'm writing and that kind of thing um for our next one so I'm at NDC London right now giving a talk on GitHub co-pilot that'll be recorded and we'll go live on the YouTube channel after the conference so that'll be good to watch I'm at the state of open Con next week if you're around in London please drop me a note love to see you and then after that I at NDC Sydney um in Australia then I'm going on my honeymoon and then I'll be in India for the developer conference in April so lots of great things happening and yeah lots happening and uh yeah if you follow GitHub on socials as well and also there's a GitHub Meetup Group if you are in San Francisco I know this is not a great time for San Francisco people like but if anyone has seen this from America there's lots of meetups now happening at GitHub San Francisco headquarters which is really awesome you can go and see all the cool GitHub stuff and meet lots of people so we're running meetups at least once a month there so you can have a look at that too so follow the socials and yeah if you ever want to ask me a question feel free to DM me on any socials I'm happy to answer and if you ever see me live on Twitch jump in say hi and if I am playing a video game it's totally okay to ask me any kind of develop actually someone dropped into the stream the other day and was like how do I build a good GitHub profile and I was literally like one V oneing someone in fortnite I'm like give me a second I will answer you I'll just finish finish this um this combat and so we finished and then I was like yeah here's some great links to building a GitHub profile and that they're like this is so cool this is I never expected this from someone who games it's like so I'm totally happy to do those things amazing so thank you so much Michelle again best of luck I'll keep following you everywhere to try to to know your real secret but I'll try of luck next time some coding stuff live coding some something something cool something hand on gaming together something we'll do something yes that would be so fun I'm so excited and good luck for all your stuff too I love all the content you produce it's been so inspiring to watch and thank you everyone for coming in today and being here with us and I hope you enjoyed it perfect perfect thank you thank you so much and bye bye everyone bye in the chat byebye, DevRel and Conferences - Michelle "MishManners" Duke, Francesco Ciulla, 01hnnafhfv017hr607xj7he83c.