Did Bethel Actually Repent Over Shawn Bolz?  Hey everybody, welcome back to the wonderful world of remnant radio and this program. Uh it looks like Bethl church and ready has actually repented of some of the statements surrounding Shawn BS. Uh it's going to be an interesting program. You guys stay tuned. [music] So did Bethl Church in Reading actually repent? That's what we're tackling today in this video. Uh in our last week's video, we reviewed a Bethl sermon where Chris Valatin got up and kind of spoke about the difficulties of pastoring a church in the 21st century and it seemed to be in direct uh response to Mike Winger's video and he actually confirms uh that it was in response to Mike Winger's video. So today we're looking at this next clip which seems to be 180 turnaround. I mean it is a complete flop on uh what seems to be a prior position of like, hey, we're not going to acknowledge this directly. uh and it looks like they've uh tried to do some ownership. So, we're going to kind of review that video and kind of give you some step by step how we think through this process. If this is your first time here to Remnant Radio, uh my name is Joshua Lewis. Uh and together with my co-hosts, Michael Miller and Michael Roundtree, we engage with man uh lots of teachers and pastors across the world from different churches and denominations. We ourselves are continuationist, meaning that we believe that the gifts of the spirit have continued. We practice the gifts of prophecy and and healing and tongues and interpretation in our own local churches. So, we're not a group of heretic hunters looking to kind of bash Bethl uh in reading. Uh we are in fact charismatics and we want to police our own movement from the inside. So, we want to be able to call balls and strikes as we do here on the channel. So, if you're interested in keeping up to date on content just like this and how to discern and to be critical thinkers when it comes to a space of uh man's spiritual gifts, this is a great channel for you to subscribe to. So, I encourage you to do so. Uh now today I am joined with my co-host Michael Miller. Michael Roundtree who really wants to be here for this video. Unfortunately is traveling and is on a plane or is trying to get on a plane because of the weather and the snow apocalypse that has come upon most of the nation uh here in I guess January of 26 depending on when you're watching this video. Uh well without further ado, I want to introduce you to my buddy Michael Miller. How you doing over there in Denver, Oklahoma? >> I'm doing good man. Um, yeah, I don't really have anything to complain about. Life is good. You know, taught through the rest of second Peter chapter 2 yesterday. Um, yeah, everything's going pretty go pretty well. I'm I'm excited. Um, I I am thankful for for some of the response, you know, that we got. Um, there's a whole lot to comment on. I've had a lot of thoughts that have been kind of mulling in my head since I heard it on Sunday. Um, which was yesterday for me. you guys will be watching this on Tuesday, but um yeah, a lot of thoughts uh a lot of really good thoughts and and I think for the first time it gave me a lot of hope, not just for Bethl, but all of those that Bethl influences and that watched Bethl's public repentance. Maybe this could set an example for the charismatic movement at large. Um yeah, I hope I hope I really hope. Um there's there's a lot of really good things and I want people who are [clears throat] tuning in uh to know we we want to be um discerning without having like a critical spirit right where everything looks bad. So I think this video first and foremost I'm proud of the Beth leadership team. I'm thankful that they did what I think was actually necessary maybe even mandatory uh for their office as leaders of the church there in uh in Reading. So I'm thankful for what they've done. Um, I also just want to kind of familiarize our audience with some prior concerns, right? Um, they've had a guy by the name of Kenneth Copeland come out to their church who has recently said, you know, I'm God just like Jesus is God. And they got mad at him for when he claimed to be God and they get mad at me when I'm claiming to be God. He he, you know, pretended to cut his hand into the communion glass talking about how his blood is the same as Christ's blood. I mean, some pretty egregious stuff, okay? And that that didn't happen at Bethl, but here's a guy who his track record is very public and people know about this guy and he's come and spoke at Bethl. We were like, yikes, that's >> no repentance from that guy when Bethl to their church, >> right? And I think we we'll probably get into this because Bethl in this response actually acknowledges, hey, we realize that when we put somebody on a public platform, we are endorsing them and therefore have ability. Um, so their response is going to have massive ramifications for them. I don't know if they realize. I hope they realize. I want to give them, you know, I'm very hopeful, but time time will tell. >> Yeah. So, when I talk about different I mean, Kenneth Copeland, that's up on my list of things that I'm mega concerned about. Uh, another thing would be the Passion Translation. Over and over again, Bethl Church has said, "Hey, this is a a good and faithful translation of the Bible. Come to find out, it's a tarum at best. It is not a translation of the scriptures. It is not a translation of the Aramaic." Um, there's a lot of stuff we've done on our channel and Mike Winger has done on his channel addressing the concerns about the pass, the so-called passion translation as it claims to be. Uh, it is not. uh the guy who translated and claims that he has all of this uh background in Aramaic and translating Bibles. Uh when you go and and and look up his references of of where he translated those things and you reach out to those organizations, they will say uh Brian Simmons had no participation with us in any form of translation. Though he worked with our teams, uh he was not a translator and did was not responsible for translating. So um a lot of really serious concerns there. Um, and then maybe one of the biggest concerns that we have here is the physics of heaven book that was forwarded I do believe by Chris Valatin uh and uh has been sold in their bookstores uh the physics of heaven book um openly claims to take new age practices and whitewash them into Christianity uh which we call synretatism and that is a very dangerous unbiblical and ungodly practice. So when I, you know, when I come on the scene, there's a lot of things people really want to pick on Bethleore, uh, you know, Christian tarot cards, grave soaking, calling the Holy Spirit a blue genie. I'll acknowledge of those things. I think those things have been repented of. Those things have been publicly they've >> Exactly. So I'm not out here. >> It's really not okay. Sorry. I I just want to acknowledge this because I I see this with a lot of people who are really critical right now of Bethl's response. Like, what about this, this, and this? And I'm like, guys, they they have publicly said, "We don't endorse that practice. This is bad. >> That's right. >> Yeah. People keep shoving it in their face. And so I want to again balls and strikes, right? So I want to at least give credit to where credit's due. Um and and let me just say I don't not everything I'm going to say is going to be positive towards Bethl in this critique. Um but I want to give positives where they deserve to have them. So >> yeah. So I I'm bringing all this up to say there are people who are going to watch us. I'm going to say things like I'm proud of Bethl Church. Way to go leaders. you know, like this is this is the right response. I'm going to say those kinds of very positive sorts of things throughout this video. And as I do so, I don't want people to think because I'm thankful of this what seems to be a legitimate work of repentance. Um I don't want them to think therefore Bethl is a safe place. Because again, I I there is a track record. Even if you want to say, hey, they've repented for the tarot cards and calling the Holy Spirit a blue genie and uh the grave soaking thing, which I do think that they've, you know, uh repented for. Even if we were to say, "Okay, they've repented for those things, and there's these things over here they haven't repented of that I'd love to see them make statements about," there is a trajectory. There is a regular um practice of what I would say unsafe and and a lack of discernment. There is a uh a a prolific pattern of a lack of discernment throughout this ministry. And I still am concerned. That is not to say, I don't think they're Christian brothers. is not to say um I I in my last video I was like hey Mark and avoid this is dangerous. Uh I want to say here um I still think that you should have high discernment and be very concerned about the things that are going on. However, I think what we see is a work of the Holy Spirit causing repentance in the hearts of these people. And I'm thankful for it and I want to champion the good that I see while still calling balls and strikes. So I know that's a a complicated thing right out the gate. Um, but I want people to know where my posture is and my heart's at when I'm talking about all this stuff. And what I don't want them to do is when they hear me champion, oh, way to go. Thanks for doing that. Therefore, everything Bethl does is okay in the eyes of Josh. I I still think that you need intense discernment when when walking [clears throat] with this this ministry. Uh, Miller, >> well, I think it's important ju just because our last video got a massive um view count and I think it's because I think Bethl was watching. I think a lot of people from Bethl, I think they, you know, I I begged them to take an honest look at what we were saying uh about the sermon. I think they did. I think the alumni showed up both after what Winger did and then Chris's sermon. Um they showed up to to hold their leaders accountable. I'm so proud of them for that. Like I just I'm so proud of them for that. Um, but since that's might be the audience that is tuning in right now, I I want to explain what Josh means by discernment versus what I think is often talked about as discernment in charismatic circles. When Josh says discernment, he think he's thinking of Hebrews 5:14. Solid food is for the mature man who through practice has trained their senses to discern good and evil. Okay, it's in the context of knowing the basic foundational doctrines and being able to guard those doctrines as well as propagate those doctrines. Now, it is not some sort of discern by the spirit. Uh this person is lying. This person is telling the truth. This person has has you know they're not trustworthy. Um now there is the discernment word discernment is used one other time in scripture and that's in 1 Corinthians 12 when it talks about one of the gifts of the spirit, discerning of spirits. Uh, again, I don't think it means some sort of spiritual discernment in the sense of like this person's good, this person's bad, this person's lying, this person's telling the truth, this person's sincere, insincere, anything like that. Um, I think what it's referring to is when you're praying for people, you can discern whether they have a spirit there, uh, that needs to be kicked out. So, um, the kind of talking about is discernment by the scriptures. >> I want to catch you there real quick because you said, uh, the other time discernment is used, Miller is not saying discernment is only used two times in the Bible. the word comes up a couple of times. He is talking about two different kinds of discernment. There is a discernment when it relates to doctrine. Uh when it comes to like kind of critical thinking, we should discern what is good and it is evil. Uh we should uh prove and test things as the scripture tells us to. Um but he is also talking about a a kind of uh the the kind of rational spirit informed um critical thinking and then the spiritual gift of discernment of spirits. And those are two separate categories that we're talking about. Um, but I think they could often overlap. >> Yeah, those two separate categories though are are often not employed when most people in charismatic circles are saying, "Oh, that person's really discerning or I'm going to use my my spiritual discerning." Uh, I'm like, well, what do you mean by that? Um, because it seems like you have some sort of inner knowing that is what's allowing you to discern whether or not the person's being sincere or telling the truth or not. Whereas I want to discern by the scriptures whether or not the things they're saying are factually true in scripture or are contradicting what the scriptures teach. >> That's right. Okay. So, we've got two videos that we're trying to tackle um at least today. Uh one from Chris Valatin and one from Bill Johnson. Now, uh I think it's I want to give credit where credit is due. Dan, is it Dan Farley? Is it? Or Fairley? I don't know how to pronounce his last name. >> Fairly I believe. Okay. Dan, I've seen his responding to Bethl videos. I've always perceived that Dan is more of the theologically wired individual in that camp. Uh, and I'm thankful for those videos when he was able to parse doctrine in a helpful way. Um, I'm also extremely thankful for his repentance on the front end. So, this video uh I think altogether was like an hour 20 minutes just the sermon side of it. Uh, and it starts with Dan Farley getting up and saying, "Hey, uh, I uh have screwed up in this area." He he says, "This this uh accident, this uh this breach of conduct, this was sin." He he doesn't call it anything else. He calls it a mistake, but then he says, "To be clear, this mistake was sin. It was sinful for us to do this." Um, and then at the end of uh Chris Valatin and Bill Johnson kind of giving their repentance that we're going to watch, he then at the end gives a public statement to Bethl Church and those who follow. Sean BS is a dangerous dude. Be careful of this guy if you're going to have any kind of participation with his ministry. Know about these allegations of sexual misconduct and know about this mining of prophetic ministry. Um, and then he actually invites people who have been uh taken advantage of by Chris um to reach out to Bethl Church at a specific email that can be found in the video if you guys would like to watch it. And uh he says, "Hey, if you've been harmed by this material, if we've contributed to that harm in any way, uh please reach out to us. We want to help." I don't know what that looks like, but I am actually thankful that they did that. So, uh I I want to thank Dan for owning the mistake and then giving the public statement, which really we were calling for. we were saying, "Hey, you've got to mark in avoid." They did. They went public and they marked in a void. And um I'm proud of them for that. I want to thank Dan for it. Any other things that you want to add into this before we look at these videos from Chris and Bill? >> Oh, uh yes. Well, we're also going to look at a statement that Danny Silk just put out today that went out to all of his email subscribers on Living on Purpose. Um that's probably going to be the most critical piece that I have in all of this. Um because I think there's there's there's more to that. I I'll we'll get to that. That'll probably be at the very end. >> Sounds good. Well, we'll save that for the end. Uh we've got that queued up. Whenever you're ready, you just call for it, buddy. Um the way this is going to work is a little bit different than other videos that we've done. Uh we typically have played, you know, five minute video, give some commentary, play another five-minute video, give some commentary. But in uh this response, what we're going to do is we're just going to play unedited clip of Chris Valatin saying, "Hey, this is where we screwed up." and Miller can flag me when he wants to pause and we'll give some commentary and we'll go back into the video and it'll pick up right where we left off. Okay, without further ado, let's dive into it. Here's this video from Chris Falatin from the Sunday morning before. Well, I've done it twice today already. >> I feel a little bit uh like my emotional tank is emptying, but um [clears throat] I feel loved by it. Um so, I'm going to take you on a little journey and tell you about the process what Sean Boltz said. I I want to say I had I've had a heart change and on Monday morning I had an encounter with the Lord and I I see things quite differently and I'll talk about the change in my heart since that encounter um to that. So in um 2019 it came to our attention uh through some European leaders that that that Sean Boltz was using Facebook to get some of his uh words of knowledge and um we got involved Danny and I Danny Silk and I [clears throat] Bill was out with his wife was passing sick and uh we got involved and uh we began to do an investigation as we we were doing that somewhere in the midst of that it might have even started first sexual allegations about Sean's uh ministry and specifically around his employees cameass >> sexual harassment came to Right. And um Danny uh got in the trenches there and began to investigate the sexual allegations and also the u and Danny got the there was 14 uh Facebook videos that the Europeans had put together in their own investigation and they said, "Can you guys do something about this?" So Danny, who was uh you know, we we were I'll say we were all friends of Sean. Sean was here many times in 2014 when I had a nervous breakdown. He ministered to me several times during my nurse breakdown. And so he was a friend of the house at the time. and Danny looked at the videos and flew to LA and showed him the videos and also showed him the sexual uh allegations and he flatly denied it. I didn't do that. I would never do that. Um I don't know why you think I do that. And it just went nowhere. And so Danny, I I took on the prophetic side. I said, I'll I'll work on the prophetic thing and you work on the allegations, the sexual allegations. So Danny did some research, got a hold of some other former employees, and it turned out, I'll share I'll spare you all the facts, but it turned out that those allegations were not only true, but it was a culture for a long time. Sorry. And so I flew to LA and confronted him and it was a 4-hour meeting. The first two hours was confronting him as Galatians 1 as a friend who had sinned and calling him to repentance. And he's flatly denied that he had done anything wrong, that he would never do that. And it it really got nowhere. The last two hours were a very different meeting, very passionate meeting. And I was saying to him, if you don't confess your sin, if someone else has to confess your sin, it's going to get ugly because if you confess your sin, you're going to get forgiveness and you're going to get repentance and you're going to get whole. But if someone else confesses your sin, your whole ministry is going to burn down. And I was like, "Ro, your ministry is going to burn down if you don't if you don't get in here and do the right thing." So he did it. It went on for a long time. We we all felt that we should give him some time. and we were texting back and forth and pretty soon it was just like no no no messages back I'm not doing anything this is not happening [snorts] and I I just be so we began to meet this is like almost a year passed and part of it is uh so part of I think the timeline is that you know there was co we were in co was passing um [snorts] what's that Ken left and one of my very close very close family members began a divorce and I was completely exhausted that's no excuse but that is where we were. And so we had a conversation like what should we do? >> And he's not. >> Yes, sir. >> Oh, I there's a couple of things I wanted to just comment on right at the beginning. >> Uh, one, I see a very different posture right here at the beginning with Chris. You can see a man who's clearly he's hurting. Um, I don't know what the encounter was. It could just be as simple as, you know, conviction of the spirit. Um, but this posture is is definitely a 180 from the week before. Uh, I think the other thing that I'm appreciating is that he is using the actual terms to name these sins. He didn't say that Sean made some mistakes. He said sexual harassment, data mining for prophecy. Uh, I also appreciate that he um in talking about what was going on, he made the distinction, that's not an excuse. I have a buddy who uses this phrase that's helped me over the years. Um, explanation, not justification. He's like, here's what was going on. I'm just explaining this. I'm not justifying it. None of this justifies whatever I'm about to say. So, um, I think those are all really important little distinctions there. Sorry. >> No, that's good. Do you know who the folks in Europe are who are responding to all this who have collected all these videos? >> Okay. I'm I'm curious. >> Um, but you know, Danny, >> you know, is speaking about everything that's taking place in 2020 essentially because he's talking about co >> Chris, you mean >> did I say I'm so sorry. Uh, yes. Chris is speaking about what happened, you know, in 2020. Uh, Benny being Bill Johnson's wife whose passing of cancer, uh, which was extremely tragic. um Aaron, someone at the church who had left. Uh I think they had like an administrative role there at the church and a family divorce. I I think any of us who have had to investigate any kind of church discipline sort of situation who have gone into this process will tell you when it rains it storms and it feels like it is the most inopportune time every time this happens. So, I I feel uh compassion for the guy and go, "Okay, I understand how in 2020 you could have really dragged your feet on something like this." Um, and to Miller's point, that doesn't justify the action. It just explains what was going on when all of this happens. And, um, I think that's helpful. Um, I'm going to punch back to it. >> Okay. Well, let's take him off of all of our platforms. So, we took him off all of our platforms. We took all his books out of our bookstore. We took all this messages off off our uh you know off of our network and we we told a bunch of our close ministry friends that we knew were having him on their platform. But here's the challenge that I didn't understand till 4 days ago, 5 days ago. I thought we were helping somebody else with their problem. He was on many many platforms. I don't know 100 to 200 churches. Those European leaders asked us to help. We weren't on his board. We went to his board on a couple of occasions. They did nothing. And I I was I the staff member like that happens in our staff. that is not going to go. I was like, this is not our this is not our responsibility. This is someone else's responsibility. We've done what we could and that was a serious mistake. And as soon as we did that, other people other people believed in him because we believed in him. And consequently, when he failed and then failed to repent after giving him time to repent, it was our responsibility to tell the people that we told we trust this man to tell them we don't trust this man. And that didn't happen. And that's on me. I made that decision. Um, I know that it sounds like we were hiding something. Uh, I I want to point out to everyone who knows me in our global audience, too. I confess my own sins. Well, when the Lord talked to me about cussing, I'm like about a week later, I told the whole world. I've never been I I've never been able to live with I do something wrong and I don't confess it. So, it it wasn't in my mind to cover up thing. It was it was a couple of things. One, I struggled with what is our responsibility, which I see completely different. And by the way, it's so snap that somebody has to put out a video that creates a firestorm to get someone who's 70 years old to do something. That's an indictment against my leadership. I should have known better. And if I didn't know better, I should have went and got counsel. And I didn't do that. And I'm very sorry. I take full responsibility for that. I'm very sorry. And being sorry doesn't fix anything because the side effects of that are that people took prophetic words from Shawn and as news came out and of course it it will. We live in a social media world. I don't know what to do. What do I do with this prophetic word by somebody who's been getting mining Facebook to get his words of knowledge? What do I do with these? And instead of stepping in and and helping process like what do you do with these words? And then the sexual allegations, what do we do? One of the victims, I'm sorry. One of the victims of the sexual allegations reached out to me and wanted me to help. I did. I reached out to Sean on several occasions and after a while just got so mold it didn't go anywhere. Danny was meeting with him, too. And uh and he was persistent like he should have been. He's asking a spiritual father in his life, can you help me? I'm in a crisis. And unfortunately, his persistence and my not knowing what else to do caused my to me to make a decision out of frustration instead of compassion and I just blocked him. It wasn't the first day or anything like that. Went on for a long long time and I think this my my capacity for stress was at all time low as I was trying to help my family member Benny and COVID and all the issues that were happening all at once. And it was uh sad to look back and realize that someone reached out to me for help. Miller, is it true that that is a new piece of information? I don't think this was disclosed in Mike Winger's video that he blocked this guy who was reaching out to him. So, I mean, I'm only asking this because it sounds like Chris is kind of following falling on his own sword here by giving up information about something that happened that makes him look really bad without without anyone uh providing that information on the front end. Am I right in that assumption? >> Yes. I I think that's actually what is is a demonstration of real repentance is you're not waiting for other people to dig up more facts, but you're actually self-disclosing and you're doing it publicly. Um yeah, I that's why I do think there is genuiness here. You're right that that wasn't disclosed in Winger's podcast. Yeah. So I again want to commend the guy and saying things like I'm 70 years old. I've been doing this for a long time and it took a YouTube video to get me to realize the errors of my I mean my word's not his. You just heard him say something paraphrase to that. Um that's pretty significant. Um I'm going to keep going. >> Yeah. >> And not only did they not get help, they got stonewalled. It's not the way a leader should behave. And I I want to say publicly I'm so sorry for all the people like everyone in this room. you're carrying the stigma of my inability to do the right thing, which was to post, hey, we put this guy on stage and we trusted him. Hey, we no longer trust him. Everyone should know that. And and I didn't do that. So, I [snorts] especially apologize to the victims. This this the victims of the inappropriate sexual culture and and obviously victimic ministry. >> Go ahead. So, all the times I've heard Chris respond to these kind of videos or like when Mike Bickle came out, he didn't mention the victims. You know, he was all about restoring Mike Bickl and and I put out that video saying, "Hey, that's great. You're about to you're ready to restore Mike Bickle who's on repentant. What about all of his victims? What kind of restoration do you have in mind for them?" And then last week, you know, our commentary, which I can't help but wonder if he watched it. Um, because he's kind of going line by line through like our basic, you know, what were what did you you call them? Headings maybe for each little clip that we showed. Um, it seems like he's going line by line through that and responding. And this is the first time I'm hearing him acknowledge that there are real victims and he's apologizing to them. Now I know this is a public statement. Um I have heard uh that he did sit down with Elijah and apologize to him. Um apologies are a great first step. Um when I look at what reconciliation and res restoration looks like, it always starts with repentance, which means acknowledging your sin like this was truly wrong and refusing to do it again. Okay, that's that's part of it though. Um, the other part of it is, uh, not just the acknowledgement specifically of what you did wrong and a commitment not to do it in the future, but a, um, willingness to make restitution. And I don't know if Elijah got that. I'd be curious. I haven't talked to Elijah about this, but I would be curious if any money was offered to Elijah since that's what he lost. But restitution is a key part of the rich repentance process. When you look at Zakius, a tax collector, a man who defrauded people, when he repented, he said, 'Lord, I give half my possessions now to the poor. If I've defrauded anybody, I will repay them four times the amount. That's called restitution. Um, people who are truly repentant, they self-disclose. They don't wait to be found out. People who are truly repentant, they offer restitution and they acknowledge the pain that they've caused others and commit not to do that anymore. Um, I I I'm seeing a part of repentance and and I can't peek behind the curtain. Maybe there's more going on than I know, but I would love to see what does it look like to make restitution to people. Tough thing is there are times when your sin is so egregious that you can't make restitution. What was stolen, what was damaged cannot be fixed and not be replaced. And in those places, it's what can I do to make it right? Would you please forgive me of this debt? Um, and I I I think in this case that may be exactly what's going to happen have to happen because I don't know how many people were hurt by Sean. I don't know how many people are now dealing with the the cognitive dissonance of he gave me this word and I've been living my life based on this word and now I realize it might all be fake. Um, there's just so much to that. So anyway, um, I'm not saying that he's not doing those things. I am saying those are things that should also come with repentance and uh that being restitution and I'd be curious to know and maybe maybe they'll let the public know. The problem is is that your trust has been so broken with the public at large that in order for them to actually know if you're truly repentant, you're going to have to take some steps publicly to also let the public know here's what I'm doing to make it right. So I think there's some things they're doing. I don't know if if what they're doing to make it right is just a a systemwide thing to fix how this problem even came up at Bethl versus actual restitution to the victims that are already there. >> Yeah. I mean, the Dan Dan's statement at the end, not Danny Silk, but Dan Fairley. Um at the end of the video, you know, says, "Hey, if you've been hurt by any of this, please email us. We want to try to help in any way that we can." I don't know if that means counseling. I don't know if that means um just give us feedback. I don't know if that means hey, we're going to try to make restitution in any way that we can. I'm not sure. Um but I do know that this is the first step and I want to champion every positive step that I see um for brothers and sisters who are repenting and this is a good and right thing to do. So I just I just want to encourage Chris. We came at you hard on the paint on our last video. Um, but I I want to I I want to in the same way encourage a brother to say like I see the work of God in your heart as you repent through the process here and I'm thankful for that and I'm not jumping on board. It's just assuming it's a show and assuming it's just um you know uh what's the word I'm looking for? Uh spinning the narrative like >> damage control. Damage control. That's the word that everyone online wants to use. I I I lo love hopes the best, right? And I'm over here hoping that what I'm seeing is like legitimate and true. And I want to champion that. I want to I want to thank you for disclosing things that nobody else knew. That's good. Um and and I hope that there's still as as Miller said some some attempt at restitution. And I know that's going to be difficult with how widespread the impact of Shawn BS was. And um I we might have to acknowledge that this is beyond restitution for everyone. Um and I and I I get that. Um, and I'm glad that you realized and he's going to he's going to continue to go on. He's going to restate a few of these things, so I'm going to let him do that. Uh, anything else you want to add on this, Miller? >> No. Um, >> okay. >> Again, my heart just kind of hurts watching. Like, I really do feel sad. >> Um, this has got to be hard. It's got to be incredibly hard. >> I agree. >> We struggled with what do I do with this word? Some of the words were amazing. Do I believe this word? Do I put faith in it anymore? How do I process this? And frankly, we had never processed that on that level before. So it was new territory for us. It's again not an excuse. I Sunday night I was not in this this is our this is our responsibility mode. I was still in hey we did more than 100 platforms he was on. Hey we took our own time to investigate this. We confronted and confronted to no solution. And then it's like and and I I I was in this mode of like I don't know why everybody's mad at us. Like who else did anything not realizing like we're the ones who put them on a global platform? We're the ones who caused to go from this to this. It was on us and honestly to you know I say sometimes adversity introduces a man to himself and I saw in me a man I did not like Monday morning and I want to thank people who push back and we're dedicated to the body of Christ being a we we need it's not fun but we need that kind of push back. Last Sunday night, I was trying to uh process externally, which I'm sort of famous for doing. Like I don't totally have it figured out, but I think I'll just tell everybody about it and maybe it'll maybe it'll be a good message. I had a sincere heart. I was really trying to share with our body with all of these Facebook because all these, you know, social media swirl my friends are like, "Say something." And I'm [snorts] like, "Oh, you know, what am I going to say?" What I'm going to say is, "Wow, it's really hard to pastor a global body 21st century with social media." That was really a pretty dumb response actually. Especially since I hadn't worked out how to do it. Like let's just tell everybody I don't know what I'm doing. And I actually quoted Revelation 2 where it says, "I know your deeds that you love your love and faith and service and perseverance that your deeds of later are greater than at first." That's good. But I have this against you that you tolerate the woman Jezebel who calls herself a prophetus and she teaches and leads my bond servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat sac [snorts] sacrifice idols. I gave her time to repent and she does not want to repent of her immorality. Funny. I don't know how you read that verse and emphasize I gave her time to repent instead of you tolerated the prophetess who was perverted. But somehow I didn't get that. Somehow I read right over that and not saw I didn't see that the Lord was actually speaking to us like hey you're doing these greater works. That's awesome. You're tolerating this prophetic person who's actually perverted his ministry. And I gave him time and I'm emphasizing in my message. I gave him time when I should have been emphasizing I called him to judgment. That was dumb at best. I didn't see it. I didn't see it till Monday morning. I saw it when I realized this is our this isn't just this isn't our fault, but it is definitely our responsibility. These are the things you know repentance means that you take ownership of your failure. So number one, I need to take ownership of my failure. We failed you as a body. We failed the students. Failed everyone who trusts us and I sincerely am sorry. But repentance requires bringing forth fruit because sorry doesn't really get it if you just keep doing the same stupid thing over and over. So we need to be a shift in our cultural values and that we focus on safety and security of our global community. We have to focus like it's it I I used to say it's not our responsibility to keep everybody safe. Well, we can't keep everybody safe but it is our responsibility to do our best as it depends on us to keep our people safe and to keep the people who trust us safe. It was a very bad core value on my part. Number three, we must realize that leaders who have graced our podium and being promoted by us are thereby. We have to care as much about their character as we do about their gift. When we put somebody on stage, we have to care. If we're going to take responsibility when somebody that gets on our stage falls, we got to care that they have a track record. Now, obviously, you can do all the investigation you want and still make a mistake. That's a mistake. But when you don't even try, that's not a mistake. >> I think it's probably fair to say, yeah, they've probably always said things like that. They've probably always said we care more about their character than their gift. They've probably always said that. But I think Chris is realizing we probably haven't lived up to what we've said here because when people's character become it is revealed that they are not who they say they are. Um that we we don't follow up and and speak to that. Um couple things he's mentioned. Um talking about being hard to pastor in the 21st century. That was pretty dumb. Revelation two, how I preached that and emphasized this about tolerating the sin. Uh, you know, I didn't see that part, but I saw the part that Jesus gave her time to repent. Um, and he goes, I don't know how I saw that. That was pretty dumb. I mean, he's owning this stuff. I think as best as you can, and again, thankful for it. Uh, I agree with you. Uh, I think the sad thing is is this is a process. Most people when they've suddenly found a blind spot, uh, a sinful blind spot, I don't want to just say this is a mistake, but when you find a sinful blind spot in your life, takes you quite a while to really unpack that. And right now, I think he's at the very beginning of unpacking that. Not just him, but probably all the Beth leaders, and some, I don't think, even quite get it yet. And I would suspect that they've only begun to scratch the surface on the value system that got them this result. Um, and I I have a question for Chris. As much as I I am fully acknowledging here that there is a genuine heart of repentance here from what I can tell, as best as I can guess at somebody's motives, I don't think you're doing damage control. I think you really did have a change of heart. Um, but I also would ask you, who else is out there that's a victim um that you failed? you know, maybe you did more than other churches, but when they came to you, did you put it back on them on some level? Um, are there others out there that, you know, your concern was more for the leader that was your friend than it was for the person bringing a story to you? Um, is there anybody else out there that when they brought you their story, you didn't believe them or you assumed the worst about their motivation when they brought it forward? Um these are questions I think that are worth as uh answering and uh having some serious time of reflection on. Um but also who else did you platform? You know the only the video that Mike did that got all the attention Mike Winger um the six-hour long video it was uh preceded or it was there was a video prior to that also about a failure of Bethl which had to do with Bob Hartley. He hasn't been mentioned in this and I think you guys know that. I'm sure you've heard by now. Um, but I I would imagine from what I can tell and what I remember in that video, uh, he allegedly went on to harm others. Um, Bethl, you warned your friends, but did you warn the body at large? Is there somebody else that you helped platform? Maybe he didn't take the stage as often. Maybe he didn't get quite the props that Shawn BS got, but he was definitely an influential person in that community who did a lot of damage to a lot of people. Um, where are you guys at on him? Uh, now I would love to throw Kenneth Copeland in the mix on this one because I think he's actually committing heresy. Um, and I suspect you guys don't quite see it yet. So, uh, I'll allow that process to continue, but I don't think that any of you quite fully grasp the harm that's happened just yet. I think you're grasping some of it. I don't think you grasp the values that are underlying the culture that allowed this to happen. Um, and I would like to talk about that maybe towards the end. Some of the things that I think have led you guys to uh to be in this place, this really difficult place. So, yeah, that's it. Spoiler alert, it has things to do written by Danny Silk. No. Okay. Um, [laughter] >> well, Danny Silk just >> Well, he he just put into writing what all of them were propagating and believing. So, you can't you can't put it all on Danny. I think Danny just knew how to put >> I'll tell you, I think I think Culture of Honor has as a book as a whole has propagated charismatic wide kind of influence. >> We've already done a review. We've done a review on on Culture of Honor. I think it was a three-part review and you can maybe Josh you can link those videos here. >> Describe like here's some of the problems with Culture of Honor. But >> the other one we're going to talk about is unlovable or no sorry unpunishable. Not unlovable. Unpunishable. Um all right, keep going. Let's let's let's let Chris continue to speak for himself here. >> Number four, we have to take steps to bring greater accountability to our own leadership teams and ensure that we together without these values. We have to call each other to account when we break these core values that we're creating or we say, "Hey, it is our job to keep people safe. At least as it depends on us. This is our job. This is not their job because he's in some other ministry or he's not on our board. We're not on his board." And and we just fluff it off. And then what happens? Comes into our into our network. It comes into our people in the body of Christ and wres havoc. And we're like, "Well, that's not my problem. I'm sorry. From now on, it is our problem. And from now on, we better think of how we're going to solve that problem." And I don't know that's going to be an easy solution, but the Lord will give us good wisdom and grace and we will figure it out and we will be a better movement in the future. We want to remain a place of restoration for leaders but not at the expense of protecting the flock. Listen, people come here from all over the world. Some of you know, some of them you don't. It happens a lot here. A leader who has fallen comes into our midst and we help restore them. And we restored so many people. And I'm going to tell you that I a product of that restoration. I met this man when I was 26 years old and I was in the middle of a three and a half year nervous breakdown and he wrapped his arms around a broken kid with two little kids and a wife who moved to the mountains because I was mentally ill and he believed in me and I don't want to lose that. But in the midst of that core value, we have to protect the flock. We can't let predators and people who are unrepentant have our podiums and be among our people when they are still destructive. And I think this is another good example of explanation, not justification. Um, I I think that when we look at the text of scripture of even like David and Solomon or David, not David and Solomon, David and Abselum, you know, David's sin as it related to Tamar. Um, and David's unwillingness to punish that thing likely had something to do with David's own origin stories and how he realized he was not above approach uh when it came to uh punishing and disciplining sexual sin. Because David got out of line. It seemed as if he was unwilling to discipline Abselin. And I think that, you know, when you've got a background that's like, I was broken. I was, you know, I was a leader and um, you know, someone restored me. I I know I I I've told Miller this. I I have a bit of survivors guilt is what I call it cuz I know a bunch of guys who have got doctorates and PhDs and like their masters in theology, doctorates in theology. I'm over here like I got a homeschool education and I read books on a podcast. How did how did we make a living doing this when all my other buddies who have these degrees and are just brilliant at, you know, individuals? H how is it that they, you know, are are working part-time jobs to try to take care of their family and can't do the thing that they love and their passion in theology and they're more qualified and they're probably better speakers and they've got all these things going for them. Um, and it's like, man, when when people are down on their luck, I I'll I'll try to bend over backwards to help people succeed in life because I realized someone helped me. So I I understand that kind of like hey this is my background and this is my baggage and this has informed why um I have uh you know treated Shawn this way. Um but I think we would just acknowledge David sinned you know when he didn't discipline Abselon and Shawn or here Chris is acknowledging that that he has sinned by not disciplining Shawn. That being said, I think that does help us frame why they have um championed the mercy for the leadership is because they are they are themselves recipients of that mercy. Um and I love what I hear him saying here. We're going to continue to try to restore ministers not at the expense of individuals. And I think that was a bold and uh honest sort of thing to say. I'm thankful for it. Uh, again, I I I hear the the words I'm sorry, and I hear the words we're making a change. What I still haven't heard is here's what we're going to do to make it right to the victims. I haven't heard the restitution component of reconciliation. And I'm still kind of uh again, I maybe they don't see it. Maybe they haven't even thought about that. And who knows, maybe this video will prompt them in that direction. They go, "Oh, wow. Yeah, that's a really good idea. We should be doing that as well. Thank you for pointing that out." Um I hope that's the case. Uh the other thing is I do have some concern when like well let me rephrase that. He says we want to restore broken leaders but not at the cost of victims. I actually think this is where the book unpunishable is important to talk about. Uh again I think Danny Silk has put into words a value that Bethl has. But I do think that book is very problematic, especially at the very beginning in the main case that they bring up is about a a fallen leader, a guy who had had two affairs and um had slept with uh somebody he had invited into their home. And they restored that broken leader. They didn't fire him. They brought him through they did they did diminish his authority for a time and then they restored him back to his position after bringing him through counseling, you know. And it's it's sort of this like celebrated story at Bethl. The problem that I found with that story is the victim was nowhere in view. Like they don't talk about the restoration of the victim. They don't talk about whether the victim was okay with that leader being restored to that position. Was the church safe for the victim? Um so like here here's another example. In fact, uh I have a Reddit thread that I'm pretty sure is the victim from what I can tell. And here's what the victim said. Uh, also Danny in the book, he says it was an affair. Here's the victim's response. Um, still recovering, heavily in therapy. The whole situation was very bad. More to the story than anyone will know. Ben was a father to me, a pastor. I was groomed, but I'm okay. I moved away. I'm happily married to husband. Um, there's there's more going on here, but the essence is, hold on. This wasn't an affair. This was CSA and this person actually had to go through a lot of trauma therapy. Um, I would suggest that this person is also owed another apology and I would be cur curious how to know how this person feels about Ben being on staff uh at Bethl. Um, does she does she okay with this restoration? Does she is it safe for her a victim? And she was a victim. She didn't just have an affair. this was CSA. Um, because of the position, this person groomed her. He was somebody she admired and looked up to. Um, so there's, and again, I'm not just trying to throw shade here. I I'm I'm If you're saying that you're about restoring the fallen leader, but not at the cost of the victim, I think you have other stories to look at. I think there's a lot more. And again, I I sense a heart here that wants to know more and wants to see it. So, God willing, that will happen. But I think that book that Danny wrote, it actually misrepresents what really happened. Um, this was not an affair. This was CSA and there's a victim still uh long lost here that hasn't been mentioned. And so, I don't think it's a story to be celebrated because restoration hasn't been found for all. >> Yeah. And take all this with a grain of salt, too, because we're we're seven days in, right? Eight days in from his revelation that he had on Monday. So, like we acknowledge this can take time. We're not expecting you to do all this tomorrow. It's the reason we're not like, "Hey, now write a retraction on the passion, your endorsement of the passion translation and ride." No, no, no, no. Like, hey, thank you so much for doing this. >> Yeah, we we we still hope for more, but like we're actually really proud of of this. Um, I think, you know, there was something I said that I want to be very clear. I would actually pause it right now. It's probably not appropriate at this very moment for Bethl to be restoring fallen leaders. So, even though I know a passion of yours and I know that's something that you love and I'm I'm thankful that it's something that God's put in your heart. I would advise finding a really good vetted organization and taking the resources you were doing for that and giving them money and let them do it right now cuz I don't think this is a a really good position for Bethl to be in at this moment. I think right now some of the Bethl leadership who have just realized, oh man, we have sinned. We have sinned so catastro catastrophically. It's probably like ruined people's lives, you know, like we we mentioned Elijah Stevens and his life savings that he put towards a documentary that was prophesied by Shawn BS or um oh the tragic story of that woman Jubilee um who was taken advantage of. Okay. Um I I think that when you realize that you can you have in some meaningful sense contributed to um a very catastrophic financial decision and a result of like domestic violence like this might be a season uh for us to kind of like sit down and maybe ourselves get restored. We probably don't need to be leading a whole lot of other people uh through a restoration process. And I'm not saying this is in like I'm demanding that Bethl leadership step down. Like I'm not the one sitting here saying I know the I know what is right in this situation. I am saying that it's definitely it's definitely wrong to be trying to restoring others when I think that probably probably even though I just said I don't know that I know probably the Bethl leadership needs to go through a restoration process of their own. Um >> yes. >> Yeah. And they also need to since you're just now hearing them talk about victims, like the attention has now turned to those who probably deserved it more uh and who needed it more. Um you need to begin to figure out what does it look like to restore victims first. Um that should be your bigger question. Restore yourself then restore victims. Uh and do that first and foremost before you try to restore fallen leaders. Um, that would be >> Yeah. Put your oxygen mask on first before you help the passenger next to you. Right. Classic youth pastor illustration. >> Um, >> yeah. >> Okay, let's keep going. Chris is almost done. >> No, I'm so sorry for that. And we will do better. Will we get it right every time? No. But at least we should try. At least we should build a culture where we say, "Oh, we got through the cracks." Not like we have an open door. There's a big difference between an open door and he fell through the cracks. Sunday night's message I thought was good is inappropriately placed in the wrong context and sent the message. They cared more about the leader than I did the victim. I I just you know I say this for people who don't know me because this is probably going all over the place. >> It wasn't good. Sorry Chris. >> I grew up in a very violent home. I was 8 years old. I remember my mom being beaten and I left that house with a huge heart for every victim. I've had two nervous breakdowns. One of them mentally mental illness. I have a huge compassion for people who have broken. We spent five years with broken kids in a non-Christian youth group. And I I just want to point out like I didn't extend my compassion to people, but I have great compassion for people who are broken. And I'm really sorry. And it trills me so bad because I can't imagine if one of my kids was on his team or got some great prophetic word and was running their life after it and found out later that that man was incredible. I can't imagine how that would have broke my heart. And for some reason that idea that that's not our responsibility dictated my actions. I'm deeply sorry. I'd like to say it'll never happen again. But I hold you too. I hold my leadership team to like please don't ever let me do that again. [snorts] Um, good. I just want to say to the victims, super sorry. It's it's not just a scripted message. It's like deeply grieved. From Monday on, haven't slept much. When you have this much experience as a leader and you get something that wrong, you should be troubled. Yeah. Spent a lot of time and our team has spent a lot of time giving feedback. How do we get it wrong? What was the value that was misplaced? How do we change the culture? How do we make sure that we don't just fix this or say we're sorry, but how do we make sure that we build a culture that 20 years from now, this is not this is not okay. No one's going to ever say, "Well, that's not our responsibility ever again." And I promise you from this day forward, no one will ever say that in this house again. That guy we put on the platform, not our responsibility. We learn to be more vigilant. We have a lot to learn. This is for me. This is the first week of a journey that I've never been here before and how we navigate a global movement in a 21st century. It's got to be possible and it's definitely got to be way better than we've done. And prayerfully a lot of other leaders will learn from our mistakes. And prayerfully we don't just get well. carefully the body of Christ becomes the safe godly place for our children, for people to get well, for leaders to get well, for victims to get healed without creating a huge mess. Please forgive me. I understand that your trust for me is broken. [clears throat] I know for some of you that will take time to heal. I'm very sorry. I do give you my word that we will move to maturity in this. Um, Bill's going to speak now. God bless you. Thank you so much for listening. >> So, [applause] I'll just maybe close off this video. I don't have a whole lot of commentary on that until we watch the bill video. Um, just to say that I I Miller mentioned it a moment ago. I think either he watched it or some people have taken some diligent notes and presented them to him because he he touched on so many things that we touched on. Um he he mentioned the fact that uh hey this wasn't sensit this was sensitive and it was insensitive towards the the victims. Uh what if my kid was on Shawn Bulls's team? What if my kid got a prophetic word? Um you know what about this thing with Jezebel? Um you know here's this thing about data mining. Like I over and over he kind of fell on his own sword but he mentioned a lot of the things that we mentioned in our video. Um I'm I'm super thankful. Um, you know, when Miller is pleading with folks at Bethl, and they mention this, Dan uh fairly mentions this in his prior video, the very beginning of this, he goes, "Hey, uh, I'm I just want to be thankful to the alumni." They said they had like 18,000 alumni all over the world doing ministry, and the Facebook alumni page has really held their feet to the fire. Um, so I just I I want to thank people who are out there who did that. Like, look, I understand you might have been labeled um, you know, a zealot. You might have been labeled, you know, a person who's bitter. You might have been labeled a person who just, you know, is out for blood and trying to quench the spirit and, you know, trying to touch the Lord's anointed and all those things. U, for all those people who, man, you tried, you you chipped away at this. Um, I think that it did something. I just want to I want to thank you for that. Yes. Um, and I want to champion you guys because as much as I'm thankful that Chris has done this, I realize it took a village in the situation, um, to see this person's heart changed. And, uh, I just want to thank even the maybe not the executive leadership team that was formerly there, but maybe some of those younger leaders who are working alongside them. That's not an agism claim. I'd rather have ancient leaders ruling the church than I would younger leaders. That's just personal preference here. But if some of those younger guys, it sounds like have played a role in saying, "Hey, this is what um trauma-informed kind of work looks like." It sounds as if maybe they uh were uh intentional in in giving good and godly feedback to their leadership team. So, I want to thank them for that as well. Um Miller, you got you got some thoughts before we watch Bill? Yeah, I we've talked about this privately and we've uh I don't know if we've ever stated it publicly, but there does seem to be, again, this is an agism, but there does seem to be sort of an old guard mentality that is dying away and getting exposed. The old guard mentality says you never publicly expose sin. Um I think they just realized that that old guard mentality is what needs to die. Um I think that was the beginning of it. I I think he said, "We're on a journey. I hope others will learn from us in this journey." I hope so, too, man. I genuinely do. I know some other churches that their messages in response to allegations looked a lot like your message last Sunday. Um, and it wasn't good. Um, uh, and I'm glad to see hear you say that you're on a journey and you're committed to that journey. Uh, uh, you also said you were asking a lot of questions. you weren't able to sleep. Um because one of the questions you're asking is what was the misplaced value. Um I'm going to throw out some ideas. Uh this is me just telling you as as somebody I can't I don't know if you're going to listen to me or anybody else, but but Bethl alumni maybe you're the ones who listened and you brought this to him. So maybe you could do that again. Um I think one of the underlying values, you hear this a lot. Uh well, we just want to believe the best about them. Um, believing the best about Shawn led to more people being harmed. Now, it is true that love believes all things. It's a scriptural value, but when it's untethered from the rest of scripture, it can be a vice as well. Um, because not only are we supposed to be innocent as a dove, we're also supposed to be shrewd as a serpent. And I think your culture of honor causes you in some ways to approach things very naively and throws out the shrewd as a serpent. And one of the evidences of this was at the very end of your your message uh Chris's message last Sunday was the two commentators at the very end. They couldn't see it at all. All they had to say were positive things. And I think Bethl's value of only saying positive things, only pointing out the good and never the bad out of fear of grieving or quenching the spirit, dude, that's bad. Um, it it removes the ability for people to think critically about what's being said. Um, discernment really does mean evaluating uh what is being taught through the scriptures. And like it or not, that culture of honor value can actually do the opposite of promoting true critical thinking skills and discernment. It leads people to be taken advantage of by guys like Shawn Bulls, Kenneth Copeland, uh others. So, um there's there's more I could say on the culture of honor thing, but that that whole believe the best um it ends up for victims of spiritual abuse. Let me just put it this way. Victims come to somebody and they say, "This person did this to me." Well, I want you just to believe the best. You know, believe the best that God is going to change their heart. That, you know, he who began a good work in them is going to finish it to completion. Just, you know, you got to believe the best. What you just did to that victim was said, "Your pain doesn't matter enough for me to investigate it or do something about it." That's the subtle message that's given there. You don't just believe the best. Uh, you also have to be innocent as a dove and shrewd as a serpent. And when I hear stories that are really egregious, I don't just tell that person to believe the best. I step into their pain and say that was wrong. And you also have to believe the best about the victim who brought that forward. And what I often hear most of the time is not believing the best about the victim, but rather an accusation of that victim is bitter and wounded and hard to deal with. There's a reason they're bitter and wounded and hard to deal with. Even if that's true, there's a reason. The reason was somebody hurt them and that person who hurt them needs to be held accountable. So, um, that's a Sorry, I just monologued a long time ago. >> No, it's okay. It's okay. Let me let me let me tackle that statement you made with the old guard. Some people might hear that and think, oh, again, it's an aegist claim about old people versus >> it's not an agist claim at all. Miller is clearly talking about the charismatic movement and an older guard of charismatic leaders who uh have that don't touch the Lord's anointed vibe to them who are like, "Hey, we've got to protect the the man of power for the hour." And whereas, you know, >> we got to protect the move of God. >> Yeah. We've got to protect the move of God. We got to protect the movement. We got to protect the image, whatever. Whereas, you know, some of the younger car charismatic leaders, uh, I don't even know if I want to say charismatic leaders. I think it's just a younger thing about this generation. They want truth. They don't trust institutions. They don't trust the government. They don't trust big pharma. They don't trust they just don't trust. And this idea that we're going to turn a blind eye to someone's sin and corruption um in the church. If they're not willing to tolerate it in the world, they're certainly not going to tolerate it here in the church. And I think that uh they are that that that is a generational thing that is different. And I do think that there have been very very good Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Methodist, you know, Anglican, you know, churches who are willing to call out their own. And I'm not saying that there's never been a Pentecostal or charismatic church who's ever called out their own because again, it's clear that that's happened. However, there has been a trajectory. We've heard the war stories from our forefathers, if you will, of of charismatic leaders willfully turning a blind eye. When Miller's talking about the old guard, he is, yes, talking about older folks, but specifically within a a certain kind of theological framework. Um, so I hope that makes sense to everybody. Okay, let's watch this next clip from Bill. It's about 7 minutes. I don't think we have to stop it. Uh, maybe we stop at once, but we should be able to get through this pretty quickly. >> Um, Chris [clears throat] uh very nobly takes all the responsibility and really comes back to me, you know. both Christian and Danny were much more willing to pursue u bringing correction not just the initial correction but actually walking through long term um this whole journey and I was the part of the process that slowed it down um you know sometimes your strongest trait becomes your weakest trait and one of the things I do well is I believe in people when they don't deserve it but it can move into what some have called unsanctified mercy and that's actually what I what I did I became so not impressed with the gift I I don't I don't do gifts over character, but I became so um [clears throat] committed to to seeing Sean protected and coming to a place of health. And that I I I just was foolish. And how it started is I I believed um I I didn't believe the allegations were true. Initially, I think probably all of us wondered, man, this can't be true. We love this guy. We spent time with him. He spent time here. But but over a period of time, it became obviously true. I became blind to it because my my loyalty to him as a as a friend, as somebody who had ministered deeply to me, as Chris mentioned to him and so many people authentically, you know, we became blind to the fact I became blind to the fact that there was a real issue that needed to be addressed. I'm completely blind to it. I mean, I see it now. It's embarrassing to to to see what was right in front of you all all the time. And I I were surrounded by such a an incredible group of leaders and team. Uh phenomenal discernment. I on a number of occasions I've come to Chris, I'll ask him a question, you know, how do you see the situation? I trust your perspective more than mine. And there are just times where you just trust in other people's get more than your own. But this was an occasion when I didn't do that and should have because I I easily could have seen through their eyes, through their heart, through their discernment, something that was really really obvious, as obvious as the nose on your face. I I didn't say I missed it. I missed it because, you know, just not wanting to believe something that that that could be true. And and it was. And as a result of my slowing the process down, I just affected more and more people. More and more uh injuries took place in through the prophetic and through his own teams where where people were uh traumatized over some of the uh sexual uh issues. Um just horrible sad sad sad stuff. And I spent time with one individual that I know and and we actually had a real I felt a really honoring time going both ways. I I he was calling out for help. he was expressing the pain of his own journey and the trauma that he had faced being on on that staff and uh we had a a really good time of connection and I was so thankful for it. What followed, however, is I did I was invited to do an interview on TBN, which I agreed to do and found out it was uh to promote Sean and his book and I went through with it. And so, if you can imagine making a heartfelt connection with somebody and uh lending support for their healing and then a week, a month, three months, whatever it was, I I don't recall now, let's just say two months later, endorsing the very guy that he just brought a report to me on. And uh it was just a slap in the face to this young man. And it was it was just such a horrible misjudgment on my part. This is absolutely foolish. I followed up. We spent more time together a couple hours and to be frank, he he helped me in a kind way to see how foolish my my decision was and the effect that it had on him. And I know if it affected him that way, then there's countless of others that it also affected. [clears throat] And I am so so so so sorry. [snorts] [clears throat] Some things are inexcusable. I'm just glad they're not unforgivable. I uh several weak parts of my own the way I function. >> I want to pause it there. I'm sorry. I know I said I was going to try not to. Um >> I know. >> Couple things important. We kind of all suspected that Chris was kind of falling in line here. Um because he was making these private statements, distancing himself from Chris. And then we had in 23 uh Bill making the public statement about um you know Sean's character um and you know the statement that was on TBN. I want to be very clear it was not uh hey you should buy this book. It was this book looks like what heaven is on earth that it would look like this book and when you know the character of the person who wrote it. So, you've got Chris over here looking like he's distancing and Bill over here endorsing full-fledged. Uh, I think we all suspected, uh, I wonder if this is really Chris's fault here, uh, if he's not just honoring Pastor Emmeritus, Bill Johnson. And >> rephrase that. What degree of responsibility is Chris's? >> Correct. Correct. We uh because again, we we have to do what's right no matter who is in charge over us. Um, and kind of let consequences be, you know, what they are. Uh, so I I think that it was good for Bill to own this. I'm thankful for that. Um, strengths becoming weaknesses. Uh, that sounds like culture of honor nonsense. Again, um, when you look at that book, it it breaks apart apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. It makes the teachers like the the discernment and division dividers of the body of Christ. Like they're just they're just there to complain about doctrine. Um, you know, it talks about the prophet and their their their responsibility and role and it divides these gifts which aren't psych psychology profiles. They're they're spiritual empowerments to the church and it it divides them into like strengths and weaknesses. I I don't care for it, but you know, it is what it is. So, I see that there. Um, loyalty loyalty to a friend willfully blinded me. Okay. Yep. I'm glad that you admit that and can confess that. That's good. I'm thankful for that. I I do think the TBN repentance is not sufficient. And I'm I'm not asking him to get back up on next Sunday and do it again, but but I hope you hear me here. He's saying this is horrible misjudgment. There are two things that are taking place. One is that you're lying or two is that you actually believed he had good character knowing all those things were taking place. So one on 2023 you got up and lied in front of an international audience and said, "This man has great character." When you knew he didn't. Or two, you think a person who has good character is a person who does these deeply egregious things to their staff members and steals prophetic words from Facebook. Um, either one does not look good. And I don't know how you own that fully without just stating it as fact. Like, man, I lied. Or, and maybe he maybe he did by saying, I was willfully loyal to my I was willfully loyal to my friend and became willfully blind. Maybe that was it. Um, but like but I this is my two cents, Michael. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't feel like that's just I don't think that's a sufficient confession repentance there. Um, that's my two cents. >> I mean, if there's something you're not thinking of, I can't see it. Um I mean he he knew people were being sexually harassed and says the character behind the man I >> he had just had a man that was lying. >> Yeah. He just sat with a man months prior three four five let's make it six months. Six months prior who is like this guy pleasuring himself in front of me. >> This also tells us something else. Um, when you're willing to lie publicly in one place, where do you lie publicly? Um, this is where self-disclosure bill shows a sign of repentance. Um, he didn't say the words I lied up there. Uh, again, maybe there's something I'm not thinking of. Gosh, I hope so. I hope I'm wrong about that. Um, but one of the things I've seen in so many of these kinds in in very big churches once they get a worldwide following is brand protection. And um, and that causes people to lie publicly while privately saying something entirely different. Mike Winger said this. I he and I have had some conversations where he's said this. I don't know if he said this on his podcast, but I think he's so right about this. He said, "All of us have had so many private conversations where people will say things in private um about yes, this is sin, yes, this is abuse, but then they'll get up on a public stage and share a platform with that person." Um, your private statements mean nothing if you can't say it publicly. I just don't buy it. I I've I've learned that the character of people is uh not entirely proven behind the scenes when there's no cost to what you have to say. I have found that the character of a person is really demonstrated when there's a cost involved and you're willing to do what it takes and pay that cost. So, um I I can't help but wonder what else has been glossed over. What else did you give a less than fully honest answer to publicly? Um, because I know for a fact that when it came to the Todd Bentley situation, Bill was absent. I know this because Jack Deer flat out told me. Um, one of the big fallouts that Jack and uh, Rick Joiner had was over Todd Bentley. Jack realized like none of you have talked to his ex-wife. this guy isn't repentant. And Bill was nowhere to be seen. And Rick and Jack had this massive blowout fight because Rick's like, "No, he's restored. He's repentant." And Jack's like, "There's been no investigation done. There's been nobody like actually fact-checking anything he says." So Jack recused himself from the whole process, saying, "I'm having nothing to do with this. The man is unrepentant." And then later on when he went to Bill, Bill just said, "Oh, Jack, I figured you guys had it handled." man, that's not that's not honest. That's not like if you're going to bear the responsibation team, you've got to bear the responsibility for it. So, Bill, I think you have some more self-discovery and self-disclosure to make. Um, again, I I think there's real uh acknowledgement here. I think there's real a willingness to really own it. Um, I think there's stuff. really hard to to have full repentance when you don't see all of your sin. And I think you're only beginning to see it. Um, but that's I get it. You're on a journey, too. So, I I'm going to give you that benefit of the doubt and hope that this journey leads you to see these other areas of fault. So >> yeah, I feel really weird watching someone's video where they're like publicly repenting and like have some serious egg on their face and you know are deeply I mean humiliated is probably the last emotion that I actually care about but like deeply grieved like sorrowful and then to be like oh this isn't enough. You know what I mean? Uh so like I feel I feel bad coming on the tail end of this and going hey that that wasn't good enough yet. Um I want to call a ball on a strike here. thankful that you publicly admitted, hey, it was loyalty, willfully blind, I was ignorant to this, it was extremely unwise. You're right on all those things. Um, but but the the level of endorsement you gave him on that TB and interview is like you said, it is inexcusable and I agree with you, sir. Um, but I still think we need to call a spade a spade there. And I don't think it was just mis misjudgment, a poor judgment. Um, it was it was worse than that. Um, okay. Let's get back into Bill's video here. >> Um, I I I do rally to people who are in trouble. I rally to people that that and I I give favor to people often times far beyond what they deserve. And I don't apologize for that because I think it's a it's a proper way to do life and and so I'm committed to that. But what I did wrong was I did it at the expense of the victims. In other words, I I showed mercy in in one category that seriously affected those who shouldn't have been traumatized any more than they were. And uh it was just uh it was just it was just careless. It was careless on my part. And obviously it's not intentional. You don't think through that stuff, but the fact that I could be that careless and and work to defend somebody who not defend anything that he did that was wrong, just work to see them restored, but in the effort to do that to do it at the expense of those who had really really suffered. And it's there there's the trauma from the sexual issues and there's the trauma from misprophetic words and stuff that has been uh promoted throughout our movement. And uh and I'm I'm so sorry. I actually I contributed to the trauma. I contributed I I wasn't just there to help bring healing as I thought I was, but I actually contributed to the trauma. >> Good. Good job, Bill. That's a horrible realization, you know, to >> Yeah. >> to realize that that you're making something worse. And my sometimes it's your actions, sometimes it's the lack of action. And I I have this horrible um trait of just not confronting well. And sometimes I'm just afraid of getting it wrong, so I just avoid it all together. And uh we've got a such an amazing team that I have purposed to uh to be much more eager to receive input on these issues instead of just delay delay delay which is what I'm I'm known for. And I I just apologize to you for the effect on your lives, your heart, your trust and just the life of this family, this movement uh because of delay and because of avoiding avoiding confrontation, avoiding conflict. And um I I I want to continue to grow in showing appropriate mercy in situations, but it really comes down to when there's we're pursuing justice, it's got to be the victim first. The priority has to be to serve those who have been traumatized. And and you know what? Sometimes it's just really really painful to be involved with people in trouble. I mean, it's hard because often times they don't need advice. They need somebody to listen. They need somebody just to be there. And um so I am repurposing my own heart, my own. >> They need someone >> life. >> They need someone to defend them, Bill. That's what they need. They need somebody to have their back and say, "I believe you and I'll help." Yeah, that's right. >> To give much cleaner attention to the victim as a priority and then the whole church and then of course the victimizer. We want to see healing and restoration everywhere. But uh the mandate really is to care for the victim. And so please forgive me for anything and everything I have said or done that would put less value on attending to the hurt and broken people. It's just wrong. It's just wrong. My uh my delay uh has caused so much frustration in family and staff and uh please forgive me. I I I promise to try to learn better. I uh I I just I don't do that well. But I'm I'm I'm praying with your forgiveness and grace to to be able to attend these things in a much wiser way. The Lord has gifted us with a brilliant team. And uh back when all this started, it was just a few of us trying to make decisions. And all of us were under incredible pressure because of all the stuff going on just in our personal lives. And now we have such a a brighter broader team to really help to speak into these situations. So I pray that with the wisdom of the whole group, you know, that scripture says uh we have the mind of Christ. doesn't say I have the emphasis is is on the corporate that together we have the mind of Christ and so that is uh that is our pursuit that is my commitment is that together for us to hear from the Lord what to do appropriately in given situations and I do ask you the victims of the prophetic any other sexual tension stuff that could exist in your life please for us as a leadership to to drop the ball as we have and to increase the pressure and the conflict in your own souls and uh I just ask you forgive me and I do pray that the Lord would would truly bring healing to us as a movement healing to us as a team healing to me as an individual. Yeah. Oh, please forgive me. I'll say [applause] with this video when I first watched it, I I think by nature I'm critical. Like if if you if you were to watch my response to something right after I watch it, I'm critical. If you give me a day or two thinking over it, which is why I should not do hot takes the second things come out. I'm a little bit more like I'm a little bit more like, "Okay, let's get benefit of the doubt. Let's think about this critically." Okay. But like in the moment I when I watched that video initially, I was like, "Chris, way to freaking go." I watched Bill. I was like, "I don't like this. This is" And maybe it was because I don't think he owned the TBN thing. I don't know. But I was like, "This it doesn't seem to be as like heartfelt. It doesn't seem to be as connected." And then when I thought about it, I was like, "Dude, they said this was the third time they did this that day." I was like, "Okay, pull the stick out of your butt, Louis." Like legitimately, [laughter] like like I don't know if you've ever preached three sermons, but like trying to like I dude >> I can barely do two. Um so so I think I think you know when it comes to like Okay, I didn't like Does does it did it feel as heartfelt? Maybe it did in the first and second service, but the third one was what was released and I understand. Um, so you know, I want to give I want to give uh grace there. Um, okay. Any other thoughts on this, Miller? >> No, the last part was really good. Um, again, I I keep thinking restitution. I'm glad you asked for forgiveness, but I also want you to ask, what can we do to make it right to the victims? not just to bring change about in your organization systematically, but what can I do to make it right to the victims that I failed. Um, again, Sean is the one who needs to pay the full restitution, but you guys bear some responsibility. And so, uh, what what does it look like for you? And you know, something Chris said that is actually true that I I want to acknowledge as well. I just had this thought. Um, there were a lot of people that knew about this, a lot of people that had the evidence. It wasn't just Danny and uh Chris. None of them said anything. They all just distanced themselves. And so when Chris says that he did more than others were doing where he where Sean had a platform, he's right. Um so hate to say it, but the others out there that that had the evidence, I I get like I knew some things. I didn't have any evidence. I didn't have the victims. That wasn't until um after Joe Mark Baker and uh Jeff Simons and the minor profits released their data mining video um then victims started coming forward to Mike Winger with actual stories of the sexual allegations and um so I I knew this was forthcoming but again if you don't have the evidence it's really hard to make a public statement. You've got to have the evidence to do so. Um otherwise you're you're not doing a good service to yourself or the people listening. So I get that. Um, others out there who did have the evidence, who are you and why didn't she say something? Um, I think Patricia King, she had the evidence. She could have said something. Her statement fell very, very short to truth in reality. Um, same thing with I mean there's more, but um let's talk about this statement of Danny Silk because this one feels a lot like the um the sermon quote unquote of Chris Valatin from last week. Um and there I want you guys I'm going to frame this a little bit or reframe it. This is an email that he sent out today. Uh, let me remind you that it was Danny who did the investigation on the sexual allegations and found him guilty. >> Uh, you also didn't come forward. I get that Bill was probably there holding you back that you wanted to come forward, but you have a responsibility even to stand up to your leaders and do the right thing when it cost you. Um, you didn't. Okay. But in this, I don't see an apology coming from you. Um, guys, let's let's read it and let's see if there is any account of his own responsibility in this. Um, a word from Danny Silk. This past weekend, Bethl Church took a Oh, I need to pull it up on my phone because I can't read it. I've got my my own little window there. Okay, there you go. Thank you. Uh Bethl Church took a meaningful and courageous step by publicly addressing the circumstances surrounding Shawn BS and the changes in his relational connection with Bethl Church. In a moment marked by humility and honesty, Bill Johnson named the delay in response and owned his own reluctance to step into a difficult confrontation. That level of cander matters. This Sunday morning message from January 25th, 2026 speaks directly to this moment and can be found here. He clicks a link there. Says, "What stood out most was not simply uh what was said, but how it was said. Bill's acknowledgement of hesitation exposes a sobering truth about leadership. Small, often unseen character constraints can quietly expand into something much larger. Leaders don't just make decisions. They shape emotional climates. Their fears, blind spots, and delays can unintentionally elevate anxiety, uncertainty, and confusion throughout an entire community. Culture is formed less by stated values and more by patterned behavior. When leaders are predictable or when unpredictability itself becomes the norm, it trains people what to expect, what to fear, and what not to challenge. Over time, these expectations solidify into belief systems that feel immovable. And when those belief systems are finally questioned, the push back is rarely about logic. It's about anxiety. Change threatens safety, identity, and belonging. This is why it's so important to say clearly, "Reluctance to confront is not the same as deception." Bill's hesitation was not a cover up of Shambul's actions. Okay, right there. Let me read that again. Bill's hesitation was not a cover up of Shawn Bull's actions. It was result of the deeper tangle, a web of shared beliefs, fears, loyalties, leader leadership dynamics that made clarity difficult and unity elusive. Leaders were trying to find a path forward that minimized damage, protected people, preserved the organization even as agreement remained frustratingly out of reach. Let me pause here on this letter. I want to respond on this. Um, Danny, you bear some responsibility here. The people listening or reading this, they don't need your wisdom. Uh, they don't need your clarity. Uh, they don't need your framing of it. They need your apology and your sorrow over your own part to play in failure. Um, not only that, but you're wrong here. Bill's hesitation. You say Bill's hesitation was not a cover up of Shawn Bull's actions. It was. Now, this is where I said uh a week ago when we did the video sort of talking about Chris's response. We said you failed to differentiate between action and motivation or intent. Um that's what you're doing here is you're failing to differentiate between intent and action. Um Bill might not have intended to cover it up. His actions resulted in cover up. That is what happened. >> Also, it was failure to act covered it up. >> It was active cover up because because he goes on TBN and says, "This guy has great character." When he knew that was not the case. That is the definition of covering it up. >> Well, that's I think that's my point is Bill's not thinking to himself, "Oh, I'm going to cover over this sin and make sure nobody knows it or I'm trying to hide something." Uh, we get that his intent wasn't there. His action did that de facto. Um you you you actions themselves are what they are. Your intent to commit those actions only makes those sins more egregious. So I understand what you're attempting to do. You are not the person to be bringing the clarity though because you knew about it and you didn't say something. What I need to hear from you are the same words those guys just gave from the stage. yesterday. I'm sorry and I failed. We don't need the clarity from you. You're the wrong person to be doing this right now. Um it really is a frustrating thing to me because honestly I feel like you're posing yourself here as the guru who really understands. Um and I I guess somebody could be saying that to me, but the problem is is I'm not the one who failed those victims. Um and so yeah, it it just this is this is tonedeaf, man. You need to you need to strike this back. You need to publicly apologize not just for now your failure to confront and stand up against Chris and Bill um but also your tonedeafness here in this message. You say let's continue. Sorry. I'm angry about this. I'm angry in the same way that I was angry about it last week when I heard Chris's message. Um so forgive me. Uh I don't want to sit in my anger here, but I I really this is not okay. Um you say truth always carries a cost. Trust is forged not in perfection but in transparency. And transpar transparency requires courage. Dude, this is like you should be preaching this yourself. Where was your courage? From the outside, it's easy to shout we should have and could have. But anyone who has led a family, a marriage or community knows that real solutions must be worked out from within the system, not imposed from a distance. Okay. Wrong. Um, there's a reason why marriages when they're in conflict, they go outside because they don't know how to solve it. They need somebody's outside counsel. And right now, that's exactly what just happened at Bethl Church. Somebody from the outside had to speak into this because the inside was so blind to it. Um, clean answers are rare when real people are involved. I I'm just buddy, you don't see it. It took a Mike Winger, somebody outside of your camp to bring clarity to the issue. It wasn't from within. Um, truth always carries a cost. Yeah, the cost is there. It may look different than your cost. Um, but you didn't pay the cost. You're now going to pay it. Um, again, this is the same kind of encouragement that I gave last week to all the Bethl students out there and alumni. Don't let Chris get away with this statement. Sorry, uh, Danny get away with the statement. This is wrong. Um, okay. I'm sorry. Let's keep going. Uh, this story does not need villains. It needs wisdom. Uh, there are no bad guys here. Only flawed people navigating pressure. I'm misunderstanding moments where fear outweigh clarity. Wrong. Again, there is a bad guy. His name is Sean. And I call him a bad guy because he's unrepentant. And when he's repentant, I'll feel differently. Um, our calling as the body of Christ is not to pile on, but to love, protect, uphold one another. In moments like this, we must resist the urge to join a bandwagon against people or places we have no relational cost in. If criticism cost me nothing, I am most almost certainly the wrong person to wield it. Josh, what are your thoughts on that statement? I know I'm doing a lot of talking here, but >> No, it's okay. I think I think it's a load of crap. Um, a phrase you've told me not to say online a couple of times. Uh, I don't like it. Um I I think uh Jeremiah was not part of the court prophets who was falsely prophesying uh when he corrected the false prophets for falsely prophesying. I think John the Baptist wasn't one of the Pharisees or one of the Levitical priests within the temple when he was calling all of Israel to come and to repent of their sins. I think Jesus was not a wider suppler full of dead man's bones when he told the Pharisees who were whited supplers full of dead men's bones to repent. Um I think uh Paul uh when he is telling the church to repent of sexual immorality I don't think he himself is participating in that. So this idea that like you have to be a part of the thing before you can be the person resolving that thing. I would actually say that people who are not doing that thing may in fact arguably be more apt to weigh into a thing. So, if a husband is, you know, beat beating his wife and then a couple comes to him and is like, "Hey, um, we have a problem here. Uh, you know, uh, this guy keeps beating his wife. I don't want a wife beater." Counseling a couple, uh, who's getting beat at home. That's a that's a dumb thing to do. And right now, what we're acknowledging is that there was clear cover up. There was clear willful blindness to pretty egregious sins uh that are blasphemy level when it comes to taking the name of the Lord uh for a prophecy that you've cleaned off of Facebook or pleasuring yourself inside of a hotel room. It's certainly not blasphemous, but it's certainly a high-handed sexual immoral sin uh that God uh would want to bring justice to. Uh and it to come to this situation and be like, "Well, you've really got to be on the inside to handle it." Well, people on the inside couldn't. People on the inside didn't they wouldn't. It's just it's it's blindly ignorant. >> Well, what he's showing is this is the exact value that got you into this problem. >> Correct. >> You only had your inside circle that you'd listen to. >> This is why Mike Winger brought the receipts because nobody would have listened otherwise. They were programmed to only see those on the inside as the ones who can really, you know, see the problems and and be the ones to evaluate and fix the problems. Um, this is not good, dude. It's like I don't know if you have a PR person. Chris clearly didn't when he gave that sermon or message. Um but dude, I if I were you, I would have run this through them because they seem to have gotten a lot farther along in this process of repentance than you have. Danny, this is bad. This is really bad. And again, Danny, I think you've put to words in your book, Unpunishable and Culture of Honor, exactly what the values are that got you guys into this mess. There are some values there that are not good. Um, you need to re-evaluate those values and you're actually putting one of them on display right now. Um, last week I said that Chris's message gave you an insight into the pathology of Chris, the way he thinks about things. We are now seeing the exact same thing with you, Danny. Um, I'm really angry about this. Uh, okay. I'm sorry. We'll we'll keep reading. Let's let's finish this off. Uh, >> what we witness matters. Go ahead. >> Yeah. What we w what we witness matters. Exposure while painful creates space for healing. I genuinely love what just happened and what it revealed. We will adjust. We will learn. We will realign our priorities with our values. We will build a future we actually want to live in. One marked by truth, accountability, humility, and love. Um mistakes do not define us. How we respond to them does. These these words >> say it again for the people in the back on these. It's like as they come out of your mouth, do you not see >> how how quite literally your response is what's defining you here. If we choose courage over comfort, honesty over image, relationship over reaction, this moment can become a turning point, not just for Bethl, but for all of us watching and learning. Today, I'm very proud of my leaders and the tribe I belong to. Today is not a day to be proud. Today is a day to grieve. Um, I'm going to say this to everybody out there because I know that this is what everybody feels right now. A lot of people are feeling pain at the pain that those leaders are feeling. Guys, I am super thankful for what they said, but here is the problem. They're just beginning. We really don't know how much they will repent from. Um, a lot remains to be seen. Um, it is not just your words that matter, but your actions following your words. So, I've mentioned multiple multiple times the need for restitution. Dude, I think this is a great first step. I'm applauding them. I am cheering for them. I want them to move forward in the right direction. I want their example of going forward in the right direction to ring true for all of the 72 countries that they reach and those who follow them. Uh, but let's not celebrate too quickly. We need to see what happens. That's the truth. >> That's right. And I think, you know, we could do the same thing with the Todd White video where it's like, I repent for preaching a false gospel. We get made a video that week and been like, "Wow, we to go, Todd." And then 3 weeks later been like, "Oh, I don't think those words mean what he thinks they mean when he said those words." Um, so like, man, I'm willing to come out with a video in two or three weeks if this was just a bunch of virtue signaling. I genuinely don't think it was. And um I hope that if Chris watched that first video, he can watch the second one and and know that there are guys in his corner really championing this kind of repentance. Um so I I I want to encourage him in that and and keep it up, man. Um keep on going because there's I like Miller said, there's a lot more work to be done. Um however, if this is a kind of flip on its head sort of we're just saying this, we're not actually going to live this out. we'll do our best to uh make the appropriate retractions if and when necessary. But that's that's not my hope. Um my hope is genuinely that uh this sticks. Uh you know, I think maybe the first time in a very long time a piece of content where we were like, "Hey, I'm critical of this. This is really not okay." Actually produced some really good fruit. And uh I hope that videos like this can do the same. So um I'm praying praying for that change in the culture. Miller, any kind of closing thoughts, buddy, before we sign off. >> Just a last bit of thanks. Those of you on the inside of Bethl, >> you're the ones to credit. Now, we can do a video. That's not that's not hard to do. You guys are the ones who actually started confronting your leaders first on. You're the ones where the relationship cost. So, I am very thankful. Um, in that sense, Danny is right. Uh, relation relational damage. Um, it cost you to do that. I'm proud of you for for sticking up to your leaders and holding them accountable. um please please continue to do so. Again, don't celebrate too quickly. Encourage them to follow through. Wait to see the actions before you celebrate. Um hopefully in a few years from now, you're going to see some very different uh leaders and God willing um a very different culture at Bethl that has now propagated around the world. U but that remains to be seen. We have to see actions. We can't just look at the words they they they give. Uh, we all know a lot of good politicians out there that say a lot of good things and then don't follow through and do what they say. So, I don't think that's the case here. I really do think they are going to fall through, but um, but I can't celebrate just yet. Yeah. Well, uh, guys, thank you so much for tuning in to this episode. Uh, thankful we got the opportunity to review it. I hope it encourages your heart as much as it encourages our heart. And, uh, yeah, Bethl, we're praying for you. We hope that this pattern continues. Um, and we look forward to championing all of your good and righteous decisions moving forward as well. Uh, while willfully calling strikes when the strikes appear. So, balls and strikes, that's what we're trying to call here. Uh, thank you so much for tuning in to this program, guys. We'll see you next time. Peace out., Did Bethel Actually Repent Over Shawn Bolz?, The Remnant Radio, 01khh85a3g40ccx77gr6qygd4m.