Did Jesus Fulfill Prophesy?  As much as I love the holiday season, we all know that it can be an incredibly stressful time. And particularly as our families grow larger and connect with other families, there are more and more people that are brought into that whole giftgiving responsibility. And unfortunately, I've always been the financially irresponsible one in our household, which has been the perennial lament of my wife. Uh, and during the holiday season, it's really easy to lose sight of your money and financial responsibility. Uh, this time of year can be stressful for a lot of people, can put a lot of stress on relationships. If you want to keep your finances under control this holiday season, you need to be using Monarch. Rated Wall Street Journal's best budgeting app of 2025, Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool that brings your entire financial life together in one clean interface on your laptop or your phone. 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[laughter] [music] Hey everybody, I'm Dan Mlelen and I'm Dan Beecher and you're listening to the data overdogma podcast where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. How are things today, Dan? >> Uh, riding high. Just uh having fun getting out into the world. Uh, no, not right now. Right [laughter] now I'm just sitting in the comfort of your apartment >> podcast studio coming coming to you live from from data over dogma studios here in >> in lovely downtown Salt Lake City. >> Salt Lake City, Utah. All right. Utah. >> Uh I'm fine. How are you, Dan? [laughter] >> I'm doing all right. I'm getting over uh my post SBL uh what do they call them? Conruds. >> The con the conrud. Yes. It's the convention uh uh sickness that uh that I pick up. Always manage to pick up usually probably in an airport on the way home from >> I think they call it conclave is what [laughter and gasps] >> they made a movie about that, didn't they? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Um yeah. And uh but yeah, other than that uh it's a lovelyish very cold day >> uh here, but the sun's out at least I guess. >> Yeah, man. Uh >> yeah. >> And you know what I hear? What do you I hear those sleigh bells jingling ring ting tingling too. It is for us now in this part of the temporal plane the holiday season. Uh it is uh others may be listening you you listener at home may be catching this a different time of year but for us right now it is the holiday season and so as is our won't or want if people want to get weird about it. >> Uh we we're going to talk about Jibus and his birth. [laughter] >> It's it's the time of year where we've got to confront uh some of that everpresent misinformation. Uh, and we've we've done this many times in the past, talking about things like uh why December 25th, talked about we've talked about no room at the inn. >> Uh, we've talked about stuff like that. >> Which turns out there's not even an inn. >> There's no inn to speak of. Yeah. >> So, why would there be room there? It doesn't make any sense. >> And we may actually in this episode, I will warn people, we may cover some ground. We or touch on some ground that we have hit before. uh because it you know it's one of those things where I don't know sometimes you got to you [laughter] got to hit some things that that you already talked about but >> there are only so many passages in the Bible that discuss Jesus's birth. So So >> I think we got some fun angles to talk about. First we're going to take issue with uh >> this is mostly just apologetics we're going to take issue. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Uh but right like the whole show is going to be apologetics. But our first taking issue, we're going to get on to Chem Ken Ham's website, >> Chem, [snorts] >> and we're going to go over to Answers in Genesis and we're going to see if the birth of Jesus actually fulfilled prophecies from the Hebrew Bible. >> And then in the second half of the show, uh and it will be an exact half, too. Uh you watch numerically work it out. I want you guys to make sure that you hold us to this. >> Okay, [laughter] >> we're gonna do sorry apologetics or sorry apologetics [laughter] uh in which we will talk about some of the objections that people have raised Dan to your claims on the media of socials. >> Yes. Yes. I am out here to ruin Christmas for everybody. And so a lot of apologists have said, "No, here's the story." And we're going to talk about uh we're going to talk about those claims. So >> yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, let's let's dive in with taking issue. [music] And we're taking issue this week with, as we said, answers in Genesis. Uh there's an article written by one Dr. Tim Chaffy [laughter] earlier. What you guys at home don't know is that Dan immediately drove dove into where is that doctor from? Do I do [laughter] I need to call out whether that doctor title is is deserved or not? Whenever whenever people make a big deal of including doctor on their names as uh in their credits for articles and particularly blog posts and stuff like that, it always raises uh the red flag because there there are a lot of folks out there who insist on being called doctor uh like Dr. James White. Like it's it's hilarious how much people insist on referring to him as Dr. James White and he he does not have a legitimate doctoral degree. So it it's always just a red flag of mine. But um while while it is a theological seminary that awarded uh this doctorate um >> it is as far as I can tell accredited. Yeah. >> So, >> all right. Nothing to say about the uh the [laughter] credentials of the good doctor, but we will have some things to say about whether or not the birth of Christ fulfilled a bunch of prophecies because >> that's something that related to a claim we hear all the time. Oh, Jesus fulfilled 300 plus prophecies and you know the the chances of that happening are >> are infinite decimal. Yeah. Well, they're they're significantly better if you craft the story so that he does fulfill those problems. >> And that's one of the things that that [laughter] you have to bring up every time people talk about that because the the fulfillment is found in the same book, >> right, >> as the prophecy. So, it's like Harry Potter fulfilled a lot of prophecies as [laughter] well, >> as long as you just keep the scope internal to Harry Potter, right? Um, and so >> it's harder to make Harry Potter fulfill the prophecies of the Hebrew Bible, but I'm sure we could find a few. >> I'm sure we could find a couple. But, but yeah, what we're talking about is somebody writing about Jesus in a way that makes the story fulfill prophecy. And and one of the reasons that this is the best interpretation of the data is precisely because there's another story about Jesus's birth from another text and it's different in most of the places where uh at least the story in Matthew has Jesus fulfilling prophecy and we'll talk about that. But to start, >> yes, >> the probably the most famous prophecy of the whole nativity comes from the book of Isaiah. >> Isaiah. Yeah, we're doing Isaiah 7:14. Is that the one we're doing right now? >> Right. So, this is coming from uh probably the second half of the 8th century BCE. And uh a lot of whether or not this seems like a prophecy is going to come down to how it's translated. >> And the way uh the good doctor the translation that the good doctor has here is therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold the virgin shall conceive and bear a son and shall call his name Emanuel. Which, by the way, we've mentioned this before, but it it really blows my mind how willing they are to throw this one out there like right out the shoot, right out the gate >> when we know that his name was not called Emmanuel. >> Yeah, >> I that that like forget the virgin thing. We're going to get to the virgin thing. I get that. But like what the heck is going on with the Emanuel part? >> [laughter] >> Yeah. It's It's not like it was his middle name. It was like >> Jesus Emmanuel Christ. [laughter] No, that's not >> Mary was like Jesus Emanuel Christ. You get down here and clean your >> Yeah, mom. Okay. >> No, it's Yeah, that's that's so weird to me that they trot that one out. But okay. >> Well, and there's a and there's a reason for that. Uh if you look in because it's quoted in Matthew uh one uh I think it's it's in the 20s somewhere. >> 123. >> 123. Okay. Matthew 1:23. So, uh, I've got I've got a few different translations in front of me. The King James version says, "And they shall call his name Emanuel." Now, if you'll notice in Isaiah 7:14, it doesn't repeat or it doesn't give us a subject. Because it's still being governed by the subject, the virgin, >> right? >> Shall call his name. So, the mom is going to name him Emanuel according to Isaiah 7:14. Once we get to Matthew, it's no longer the mom who's naming him, >> right? What it says is they shall call his name Emanuel, which sounds like the this unnamed they may not be the parents. It may be that the followers of Jesus will refer to him as if he were God among us. So it it's kind of uh >> as if the author is kind of massaging things a little bit. I get that >> point of order. >> And yet it says shall call his name even in Matthew his name Emmanuel. It doesn't say shall call him >> the Emmanuel shall refer to him by title of Emmanuel. [laughter] And by the way no one ever does right. No one calls him Emanuel. >> Not in the New Testament. But we don't need exactness here. And and this is one of the things that that apologists will sometimes say. prophecies are are vague and uh and and that just makes them more true. That doesn't it's not like they're intentionally vague so that they can be shellacked over a variety of different contexts. Um so I I think the the way that you can get around people going, "Well, wait a minute. His name's not Emanuel. I mean, in the same chapter you say his name's going to be uh Jesus." So, right. Um, so yeah, th this is one of the one of the fudgy ways to to get around the fact that this prophecy doesn't seem to be quite on target. Uh, but but that's a change that is introduced uh in the way that Matthew quotes Isaiah 7:14. But Isaiah 7:14 is is being mistransated here as well because it does not say the virgin shall conceive. Uh most if you go look into the uh Jewish publication society Tanakh, you go look in the NRSVUEE uh you go look in a variety of different translations and it will use the word uh young woman cuz the Hebrew is uh alma which which means young woman of of marriageable age. and uh and and it doesn't let you know whether or not it is in the future or in the past because it's using um an adjective which means pregnant. And so it's just saying ha alma is uh har and then you have to provide the to be verb and so you could technically say well I want it to be in the future and that's what the septuagent does in the Greek translation. Okay, >> but that adjective overwhelmingly is used to refer to either a current existing pregnancy or an imminent pregnancy. >> Okay. >> So, it's it's usually is pregnant or is right about to be pregnant. >> Yeah. Um and so >> is currently doing the dirty deed. >> Yeah. like the pregnancy is in the post. Uh to to uh to be brief. Uh and so yeah, what this almost certainly is referring to, the overwhelming m majority of scholars will agree on this is this is a reference to a woman who is pregnant in the time period when the author who probably is some historical dude named Isaiah from the 8th century BCE uh knew about some woman who was pregnant and was like, "Look, that woman right there, that's she's pregnant." And then it goes on to say she will give birth to a son, which is not much of a prophecy because that frequently happens when >> you got a 50-50 shot on that one. >> Yeah. And uh and they and she will call his name uh Emmanuel. And so the the like the prophetic part really comes in the next verse where it says uh before he is he shall eat kurds and honey by the time he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted cuz the the king is ringing his hands over the fact that there's this this coalition that's forming up in the north and and Isaiah's like, "Enhance your calm," >> right? >> Because this that that lady's pregnant, she's going to have a son, Emanuel. and you know before his uh you know whatever euphemism or or whatever idiom you want to use today to mean before he uh you know grows up uh th those those countries are not going to be countries anymore so relax uh and that's what the prophecy is doing in Isaiah 7:14 [snorts] >> right >> so Matthew is the go the author of the gospel of Matthew has wrenched this out of context now with the help of the Septuagent translation because the Septuagent wants it to be relevant to its own time and and place hundreds of years later. So, >> um it's it's already being brought a little closer and so Matthew has just given it one additional step. And uh and it should be noted that this notion that there's a virgin birth is widely agreed to be a a postumous secondary accretion to the Jesus tradition where you're starting to get uh sensitivities to to the origins of of Jesus. Like uh Paul and and Mark say nothing about Jesus's origins except that Paul says, you know, he was born of a woman. But great um h happened to most of us. >> Really sets him apart there. >> Yeah. Uh so there there's nothing significant about his origins until we get to the later gospels where they begin to push the divinity of Jesus's origins further and further back in time. And so the virgin birth probably developed as sensitivities about the, you know, just the nature of of sexual desire and sexual intercourse is is leading people to to want to distance the divine Messiah from uh from kind of a natural birth. And and we talked about the the immaculate conception like that's just that's just the further teasing out of of those concerns. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Uh, and so, yeah, >> just part of me wondered if it was if if the virgin birth because I get that there were all of these new sort of sexual mores and and a little bit of, you know, conservative ideas of sexual uh, impropriy creeping in or what, you know, in this moment in history. But also, could it be that it was just who the author of Matthew was trying to square this idea of the I think I remember you saying something about the Septuagent having taking the uh the the Hebrew of Isaiah and then making it the word virgin. Is that right? So, >> could Matthew just be trying to square it with that prophecy as he's writing it? >> I don't think it is solely a result of the translation of Alma as uh Parthonos. I I think I think that contributes. I I doubt that that is the sole reason. I doubt that the author was just like, "Look, it says Parthonos. I got to do something about that." Okay? because um you know it it calls Dina Parthonos in the Septuagent after she has been violated. So like uh and I have a friend named Hodrigo Juza who wrote a wonderful paper published 15 10 15 no 2008 so 17 years ago uh entitled uh is the choice of parthonos theologically motivated in lx Isaiah 7:14 or something like that and talks about the fact that that word had some semantic fuzziness to it even back then and so it may it may have just been kind of like eh it works. And uh and so the author of Matthew, I think, is probably uh it's probably a combination of factors. Uh and then the the author of the Gospel of Luke, I think, is probably just picking up that football and running with it. Uh writing as they are after and and the nativity account in Luke, chapters 1 and two, I think, is probably even later than the rest of Luke. I think it's a secondary addition to the Gospel of Luke as well. So >> interesting. Okay. >> It's coming later. >> [music] >> Hi friends. Well, the holiday season is here and for many of us that means a whole laundry list of expenses that we don't necessarily have the rest of the year. And that can be stressful. It can be difficult. And if you're not ready for it, it can really do a number on your finances. Between travel, gifts, hosting, entertainment, like you name it, it is easy to lose sight of your money and your financial responsibility this time of year. And that can be incredibly stressful. If you want to keep your finances under control this holiday season, you need to be using Monarch. Rated Wall Street Journal's best budgeting app of 2025, Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool that brings your entire financial life together in one clean interface on your laptop or phone. And right now, just for our listeners, Monarch is offering 50% off your first year. 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Um he No, but he did steal all of y'all's degrees. >> He did. Yeah, that's uh that's fair. >> So he what he what Chad GBPG said was that somehow Matthew taking these older these uh prophecies and and squirreling around with them was part of a midrashic tradition. >> Uh certain Yeah. And so I want to know more about that or or if it or if that's just sort of not really a thing, but like what is a midrash and and and how do you clear it up? Is it a cream? What do you use? [laughter] >> Well, uh midrash comes from darash uh which which means to to seek. uh and so it can it's it's uh it's an approach to scripture that that tries to uh uncover significance and and meaning that is really that is relevant to the reader and and the person engaging the text. And so um I think there is a sense in which it is um it is certainly engaging in a very dynamic uh interpretive hermeneutic uh practice that is related to to midrash. I would I would hesitate to say that like the authors were like I'm going to do midrash uh on this and uh uh and so I I don't think that's illegitimate. Um I I don't know that if I were uh writing about this that that that I would choose to focus on that, but but yeah. >> Okay. Well, then you're in you're in a fight with Dr. D GPT. [laughter] That's all I'm saying. >> I get in fights with Dr. Chat GPT all the time. >> Yeah. As well you should. As well you should. Don't trust Chat GPT kids. Uh [laughter] straight out the barrel. Get yourself a Dan. And then uh and then I mean I guess what what chat GPBT said was that the midrash the reason >> it said that it was a midrash was that it w it claimed that it was normal uh as a Jewish interpretive technique >> to to sort of >> take older older scripts and and twist them and play with them and sort of expound on them and whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And so, and so to take an old prophecy that doesn't actually apply to this and then just sort of apply it would have been understood at least at the time to have been a not this is the absolute fulfillment of this prophecy, but like look at this echo to something in the past or something. >> Yeah. And and I think there's truth to that. Obviously, we we've already talked about how the Septuagen is is fiddling with the with the rendering itself, right? >> Um and so so yeah, absolutely. it is it is following in the the footsteps of uh other uh Greco Roman Jewish interpretive practices. In that sense, it's not an outlier. >> Right? >> Now, to the degree I would agree with the notion that like everybody knew and it was transparently just this is how we play with the text. We're not taking it seriously. Um I don't know about that. I I think that and and Um, I there's a there's an argument to be had there. >> Um, >> although it does I mean it does sound like to me to my untrained ear it sounds like Matthew is making hard claims. It doesn't it doesn't sound like it's like hey let's just play with this a little bit and see what we think about. >> Yeah. Have fun with it. Um and and I don't think Dr. Chaffy is suggesting this is just their creative exoggetical uh practice. I I don't think that's the claim. I think the claim is this is absolutely historical and this is what the prophets were talking about and this is how Jesus uh fulfilled all these prophecies and that's how you can know that Jesus actually resurrected like I I that seems to be the argument coming from the folks who are appealing to these things today. Now, now whether or not the original audience of the Gospel of Matthew would have been like, "Oh, I didn't know that was what that was about, uh, I I think that depends on the audience you reconstruct." And and so, um, I think that's a little fuzzier and also not really the the point of what we're doing here. Um, >> but not not to say you're going off topic, but, um, but just to say I >> Yeah, I am I am a little lost [laughter] in the woods here. So, let's uh let's should we get back into some more? Uh >> yeah, let's let's do a few more of these. Yeah. Um I think the the next one that's uh brought up is, "Oh, you and you, oh Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah. For from you shall come a ruler who will shepherd my people Israel." That's Matthew 2:6. And this is obviously riffing on Micah 52, which uh if I can just pull it up here real quick, is a uh is a prophecy that says um well, it starts in 51, doesn't it? It depends on how you divide this up. [laughter] But you, oh Bethlehem of Ephraata, who are one of the little clans of Judah, [laughter] from you shall come forth from me one who is to rule in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days. So that's the that's the messianic prophecy as it was as it came to be understood by the time of the New Testament from Micah 5. Now in the original context this is uh probably pre-exilic and the expectation is that there is a there is a an Israelite king probably from the line of David uh who is going to arise and uh rule the people and and lead the people and and there are a lot of details about what's going on in there that are still hotly debated by scholars but nobody thinks this is actually about somebody who's going to be born 700 years later. This is about someone who is supposed to shepherd Israel uh prior to the exile. And >> but this is this is why what the reason we're bringing this up is that this is why the uh the the gospels >> have to swirl this guy into Bethlehem somehow. >> Yes. And this is and this is an interesting point to bring up. Again, Paul and and the Gospel of Mark say nothing about Bethlehem. In fact, there are only three places where the word Bethlehem ever occurs in all of the New Testament. One is in Matthew's nativity account, one is in Luke's n well, multiple um occurrences, but one place is Matthew's nativity account, one place is Luke's nativity account, and then there's a single verse in the Gospel of John, I think, in chapter 7 that references the Messiah being born in Bethlehem. And the one of the reasons we think, hey, maybe this is just something that was that was added later is because both Matthew and Luke have very different ways of getting Jesus to Bethlehem, >> right? >> Because Jesus is Jesus of Nazareth. And so both of them have to get Jesus back to Nazareth so he can be raised in Nazareth and be of Nazareth. uh middle name of, you know, uh Nazareth, Jesus of here. Um >> so they have very different ways of doing it. And if you just read Matthew, if you do not have the Gospel of Luke, if you just read Matthew, >> Joseph and Mary are from Bethlehem. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And they then they take off. Herod does his thing and they got to they got to uh scramble into Egypt as refugees. And then they want to come back after Herod's dead, but Herod's son Archelaus is ruling in Judea. And so they've got to head north. And it says they settle in Nazareth, which is not what you do when you're returning home. It's what you do when you're going to find a new place to live, >> right? >> Um and so the Gospel of Luke is entirely different. They live in Nazareth. They're just going down to Bethlehem because of this census thing that is going on that we're going to talk about later. Um >> yeah. So the so the why and the reason behind this is just that we have to in for the fulfillment of prophecy sake we have to get him to be both from Nazareth and from Bethlehem. Is that correct? >> Yes. It's he's Jesus of Nazareth. Everybody knows where he came from. Uh but we somehow got to have him born in Bethlehem. >> Okay. So, so we have two completely different stories about how Jesus of Nazareth was actually born in Bethlehem. >> Yeah. >> Um and and that is and and scholars think this is probably because after Jesus's death when stories about, oh, this is the Messiah. He resurrected. Uh game on game on everybody. Uh people were going, "Wait a minute. Wait a minute. This is Jesus of Nazareth." But the Messiah is supposed to come from Bethlehem. At least last time I checked Micah 5, uh the Messiah was supposed to come from Bethlehem. And so the story develops. So yeah, nobody nobody knows about it, but he actually was born in Bethlehem. Um so so I think that's probably what's going on there. >> All right, >> which brings up the next uh prophecy that that he fulfilled, which is not actually a prophecy. >> What? How dare you? [laughter] So, uh, we we go down to Matthew 2:18 and we have, uh, Herod, uh, the slaughter of the innocents. >> Yes. >> Not a part of Luke. Uh, but >> and that one feels like a pretty strong oversight. That one feels like, oo, Luke, come on, man. [laughter] What are you doing? >> Yeah. Um, and the reason all these prophecy fulfillment things are in Matthew is because Matthew was the one who was like, we got to have him fulfilling all these prophecies. More prophecies, more prophecies. Um and so >> well and he often is like overtly says and this fulfilled the prophecy of X, right? He was he was being very overt about the whole thing. >> Yeah. One of the main rhetorical goals of the Gospel of Matthew is to show how thoroughly and comprehensively Jesus fulfilled messianic prophecy from the Hebrew Bible. Even if it's not an actual prophecy from the Hebrew Bible. Okay. So here in Matthew 21:18 we get a quote. A voice was heard in Rama weeping and loud lamentation. Rachel weeping for her children. and she refused to be comforted because they are no more. And this is from Jeremiah 31. And this is about the exile. It's just a lament, >> right? >> And and this is something that that happens quite a bit in the gospels where they take something that is lamenting something that has already happened and they flip it and they say, "Oh, this is about the future. This is about uh this thing that just happened and uh and this is this is about Jesus." And so obviously this is about Herod killing all the innocent people in Bethlehem because Rama is not by Bethlehem. Um so [laughter] >> like Bethlehem is like six miles south of Jerusalem. Rama is like six miles north of Jerusalem. So >> well someone was that weeping and lamentation was loud. >> It was a very loud lamentation. >> Yeah. So, uh, probably not. That one's not as much of a bullseye as, uh, as the others also weren't. So, um, >> it's a slant prophecy. [laughter] >> Uh, and then just a few verses before that, we have, uh, because of Herod's slaughtering of the innocent, we have uh, Joseph and uh, Mary grabbing Jesus and running off to Egypt. And then we have out of Egypt I have called my son which is another nonprophecy that comes from the book of Hosea. Uh chapter 11 verse the first and that is uh when Israel was a child I loved him and out of Egypt I called my son. The more I called them the more they went from me. They kept sacrificing to the balls and offering incense to idols. So, this this is about Israel coming out of Egypt with the Exodus and just not being able to figure out um keep those dirty balls out of your mouth. >> Keep your balls to yourself, man. >> Yeah, you don't know where they've been. Um so so another another thing that is not really a prophecy but is something that the the author of Matthew and and certainly this is something that you you see in a lot of biblical hermeneutics and a lot of biblical exesus is just see resonances. Oh this is just like this thing that happened over there. >> Boom prophecy roasted. Um it gets to be a prophecy even though it was it was never understood that way. is your understanding of this one because it is confusing why Matthew sent them to Egypt when nobody else talks about him going to Egypt or do other people talk about him going to Egypt? I don't know. >> Uh so like is it your understanding that Matthew took this Hosea and was just like I'm going to run with that. That's I'm just going with it and just uh threw it into the story. It's so confusing to me because you're right, out of Egypt I called my son is very clearly a reference in Hosea to, you know, to the the people of Israel. U I don't I it's so weird to me. Why [laughter] why why put him in Egypt? Um, I I think it's part it it's a pretty complex constellation of events that that Matthew has constructed here, but you need to get Jesus Jesus to Nazareth. Luke has Jesus uh or at least Jesus's parents starting in Nazareth. Matthew does not. So, how do you get him to Nazareth? Well, if you have him leave, >> you just scare him out of Bethlehem. >> Yeah. You scare him out of Bethlehem. He comes back, but he can't resettle in Bethlehem, >> right? You need him in Nazareth. Okay. Well, you have Archelaus ruling in Judea, but guess what? Archelaus was not ruling in Galilee. Okay, we can get Jesus to Galilee. That's how we get him to Nazareth. He's he's got to leave, come back when Herod is dead, but then because somebody else took that part of Herod's kingdom, then Herod's direct line is no longer um ruling over Galilee, we can have them settle in Nazareth. Okay, where's he going? Why is he getting out of of uh Bethlehem? Oh, let's get him to Egypt because we've got this passage that says, "I have called my son out of Egypt." And let's get him to Egypt because of Herod's slaughtering of the innocent. Like, it's it's a very complex um procession of events, but it all it all fits together quite well. It is a it's a dramatic story that has Jesus get from Bethlehem up to Nazareth and allows Matthew to say, "Oh, prophecy. Oh, prophecy. Guess guess what? Prophecy." Um, along the way. So, >> okay. >> And, >> and I just had to look it up and remind myself Nazareth >> is way up north. It's like, >> yes, >> 150 kilometers north of Jerusalem. And Bethlehem's like right next to Jerusalem. Uh it it's like six kilometers or miles. I I forget which one. Six is the number though. Uh south southwest just barely a little bit west of uh Jerusalem. Okay. >> Yeah. So uh like if you if you're standing on uh in a high point in Jerusalem, you can just make out one of the hilltops of uh of Bethlehem if you're looking south. Uh and you know what to look for. So um then we got an interesting one >> that uh God warned Joseph in a dream not to go back to Judea. So instead he took Mary and Jesus to Nazareth and Galilee that what was spoken by the prophets might be fulfilled that he would be called a Nazarene. And what I think is interesting here is, and this is another reason to think that Matthew does not have Joseph and Mary in Nazareth prior to Bethlehem is if this prophecy is that he would be called a Nazarene, why didn't Matthew say, "So they went home or why like he he has this decision to go to Nazareth and that decision is what ultimately fulfills this prophecy which it does not seem to be motivated by any kind of previous connections to this place at all. So, but the the problem is there's no part of the Hebrew Bible that says he would be called a Nazarene. [laughter] >> So, that's a that's a reference to a prophecy that we have no knowledge of. >> Well, and and the there are two ways that this has traditionally been answered and one is more common these days than the other. Uh one is that he would uh he would Nazarene is really supposed to be like Nazerite. >> Okay. And those two things ju just to those two things are not even related conceptually. Is that right? >> They are not related conceptually. However, the way they are written in Greek transliteration is very close together. >> Right. So, um, but they like there's nothing in the Hebrew Bible that says the Messiah would be a Nazerite either, >> right? >> Uh, and the other thing is that it could be something from Isaiah 11:1, which talks about a uh, a chute shall come out from the stump of Jesse and a branch shall grow out of his roots. And Jesse is David's father. So, it's Davidic. And it just so happens that um the word for um the branch shall grow out of his roots is netzer. And so the the claim is that Isaiah 11:1 basically says the Messiah will be a Netzer or a Nazarene if [laughter] uh if you like. So it's still squinting at this pretty hard. >> Yeah. to try to make a connection there. But it it and it might be that Matthew was like, "We got to have a prophecy here. Come on, let's find something." And they were like, "Neter is like, I can work with that. I can work with that. Let's do Nazarene. That sounds like he's from Nazareth." >> It's also possible that there were, you know, that there was just a Nazarene prophecy going around that just wasn't that we don't have or whatever. >> Yeah. It could have been something that they were like, "This is the Agraa, the unwritten prophecy." Or it could be something that was in some text that we just don't have anymore that that at that time the author of the Gospel of Matthew was like, "I can buy that being scripture." Um, so yeah. >> So what we have in Matthew is a series of things that really apart from just the identification of Nazareth and the identification of Bethlehem are not in Luke. >> Yeah. um where Matthew is is telling the story in in their own unique way to have Jesus fulfilling these prophecies. And the and the data don't support the conclusion that that Jesus actually fulfilled these prophecies. The data I I would argue don't even indicate he was born in Bethlehem. I think most likely he was probably born in Nazareth. And then at long after he died, people were like, "Who's going to stop us from from saying he was born in Bethlehem?" >> We can say whatever we want. the president. Um, [laughter] you know, they they were just like, "Yeah, we can we can have him born in Bethlehem." And and these are ways to tell the stories in in ways that make it seem like you're fulfilling prophecies, >> even when they're not even prophecies to begin with. >> Yeah. Just >> so make throw a few in. Why not make a few up? It's fine. >> Oh my god. And so I I think [sighs and gasps] I think if if you want the fulfillment of prophecy to be evidence of something, you got to do an awful lot better than this. Uh because these that like it's easy to fulfill prophecy when you're the one telling the story. [laughter] >> Um and and if your whole goal is to show that Jesus fulfilled prophecy, you're a motivator. You're excuse me, you're a motivated crafter of a specific kind of story. >> Yeah. So, um, yeah, I just I just find that a stretch. [music] You know, you don't have to let big wireless and your overpriced phone bill suck the joy out of the holidays this year because right now, all of Mint Mobile's unlimited plans are 50% off. >> You can get three, six, or 12 months of unlimited premium wireless for 15 bucks a month. It's their best deal of the year. and makes it real easy for you to give your expensive wireless bill the Scrooge treatment. >> Yeah, that'll jingle your bells. Uh, listen, Mint Mobile's best deal of the year is happening right now. You get 3, 6, or 12 months of unlimited high-speed data and unlimited talk and text on the nation's largest 5G network for $15 a month. You can bring your current phone and phone number over to Mint. No contracts, no nonsense. It's very easy. >> Yeah, this is a wonderful product. Uh we use it in our household and I think you'll like it too. 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We're gonna stretch that hard? >> Yeah. Yeah. That's that's quite a reach. But but you know these these kinds of articles are not for critical thinkers. They're for people who really want to believe and just want to be made to feel like they have good reason to believe because even even some of the things in here are about uh like when when we get to the he would be called a Nazarene prophecy like they introduce these options and it says however there are a few plausible solutions to this dilemma. So what is the argument? The argument is that it's plausible. Um, here are ways that we can uh argue that it's plausible. So, it it's not about what's most likely. It's about and and I would say plausible is even a little bit of a stretch. It's uh it's that tiny little sliver of not impossible that apologetics is concerned to to jin up. Well, if that's where we're going to go, if we're going to talk about that, let's do some sorry apologetics and move on to our next segment. All right. So, sorry it's apologetics. Uh we're we're gonna get to this. Uh you Dan sent me a document. Oh, let me pull it up. It's somewhere. >> Uh here we go. Uh and these are give us the setup for what for what uh what this is. >> Okay. So I I've frequently pointed out that uh Luke chapter 1 and two one contradict the Gospel of Matthew, but two contradict themselves. Uh and they and they contradict the Gospel of Matthew mainly in the fact that uh we we've talked about some of it. Like Matthew has Joseph and Mary living in Bethlehem. They have nothing to do with Nazareth until they're coming back from uh from their refugee stint and are forced to go up to Galilee uh in fulfillment of some prophecy that might exist [laughter] somewhere. Uh so so that's one example. Uh you know Luke has uh Jesus is born in Bethlehem and they hang out. They're hanging out with family. They go to the temple. They fulfill what's required of them and then they just mosey on back to Nazareth. >> Right? You do not do not get the sense that the king is trying to murder the baby in the Gospel of Luke. Like that's fleeing or whatever. >> Yes. Yes. And you know, and they're like, well, the author just didn't think it was important. It's like that is pretty profound authoral neglect to be like, yeah, the they went to the temple. This is really important that you know that they filled all this stuff. What about the fact that the king tried to murder him and so they had to flee to another country? Uh, no, not important. Um, so >> well, let let's go through uh your your arguments and objections. You what you've done is you you've separated this out into uh you've made some arguments. >> Yes, we're going to do some roleplaying here >> and I'm I'm going I'm going to make the apologetic uh objection to your to to whatever your claims are. So, >> and feel free to editorialize to your heart's content. Oh, you know I will. You know I will. >> Glad to hear that. Go. >> Okay. So, uh, what we're going to start with the fact that the Bethlehem story is likely a secondary addition to the Jesus tradition. We've already talked about some of the reasons why, right? But one of them is the fact that it's never even mentioned in the letters or Paul uh, letters of Paul or in the Gospel of Mark. And again, the word Bethlehem only ever occurs in Matthew's nativity account, Luke's nativity account, and John's reference to the prophecy of the Messiah coming from Bethlehem. >> Aha. This, my friend, is the fallacy of the argument from silence. >> Yes. >> Just because they didn't mention it doesn't mean it didn't happen. doesn't mean it doesn't happen. They were not paying attention to [laughter] important things. >> Yeah. And and you know what I think of all the stuff we're going to go through, this probably is like the least illegitimate. Uh because there is a degree to which it is an argument from silence. >> Yeah. >> Uh now there there is a point uh that a lot of people will make. An argument from silence is not a fallacy. if we should have it, if we should expect to see it, if they should have mentioned it. And and I think that that is not necessarily true, at least of the uh the writings of Paul. Um because Paul's not really about his temporal life. Uh we have a passing reference to him being born of a woman, but that's serving a more uh a more um theological point. Well, and Paul's not even not claiming to have met Jesus, >> right? >> Whereas these gospel authors, we're at least the if the authorship attribution were correct, we would be assuming that the authors had actually met and hung out with Jesus. >> Yes. Um now, now the like Mark is supposed to have just been the interpreter for Peter, so he not necessarily >> uh knew stuff. Luke is, you know, doing all this investigating. So, um, to to a degree, yeah, we would expect them to have hung out with them. So, it is true that that's a bit of an argument from Silence. Mark, I think you would expect some kind of reference to this. >> But what's what's interesting is even just outside of the nativity accounts of both Matthew and Luke, they never refer to Jesus having come from Bethlehem. It's always Jesus of Nazareth. And scholars think that the nativity account in Luke is a secondary edition. And there are even scholars who think the nativity account in Matthew is a secondary edition. and the fact that they never you never have a reference back to anything that happened before Jesus's baptism in any of the gospels apart from the nativity accounts themselves is suggestive that the his origins were not important to the stories that were in circulation uh about uh Jesus. It's once his ministry begins that's when Jesus becomes relevant to everybody. And so you've got those nativity accounts, but outside of that, there there just doesn't seem to be any relevance to Jesus's origins and certainly no indication about being born in Bethlehem. But >> we've talked about other reasons to think this is a secondary edition as well. So if we're just isolating that one point, I would say to some degree touch. >> Okay. >> Um and and would say but there are a lot of other things that contribute to that conclusion as well. And and this is one of the conclusions I think is I would say is probable is most likely, but it's certainly not a slam dunk. And >> I'm I'm going to guess we're not going to get a lot of touches in this. Uh >> I was about to say that's the last you're going to hear that from me. [laughter] So So relish it. [snorts] >> All right. Next. Uh, next, Matthew, and and we talked about this in the previous segment, seems to have Joseph and Mary living in Bethlehem and only later settling in Nazareth as a result of their desire not to return to Bethlehem in light of Archelaus's rule in Judea. Aha. But says, uh, Mr. Apologist coming in, uh, Matthew never says that Joseph and Mary were from Bethle, never says that they were from Bethlehem and not Nazareth. He never claims that. He just they just happen to be there then. >> Yeah. Yeah. And this is this is a pretty common one and and this is uh something you see in a lot of the arguments about contradictions where you know one resurrection story says there was an angel and then another resurrection story says there were two angels and it's like whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. It said there was one. It didn't say there weren't two. >> Right? To say there's an angel only means there's at least one. Yeah. >> If if it says there's an angel, all that means is there was at least one angel. >> And if it says there were two angels, all that means is that there were at least two. Could have been billions of angels. There could have been angels coming out of the cracks in the rocks. >> Yeah. >> And they only felt it was relevant to mention one or two. Um, and and and this is a much weaker point because as as we pointed out, the the narrative states pretty clearly that they are coming back out of Egypt and they're like, "Oh, we can't go back to Bethlehem. I guess we got to go to Galilee." And the text says that they settle in Galilee in Nazareth. Which is what you say when someone is moving somewhere new, not what you say when someone is returning home. If this is where they were originally from, the narrative would be different. This is not the way you describe someone returning home. >> Well, and that that hit home for me when I looked at that map just just a few minutes ago. >> Oh, and saw how far away. >> Just because like that is so much farther away and there, you know, they're on donkey back. If there's even a donkey, there's [laughter] not even a donkey. But like when you're Yeah. when you're going that far out of your way, you're uh Yeah, that's you you'd mention that that was home. It does feel like >> Yeah. And >> all right. >> Yeah. So, I I don't think that objection holds any water. I I think that's a pretty weak one. >> Okay. Next. >> Matthew has Joseph and Mary in Bethlehem until they flee to Egypt to escape Herod's killing of the innocents and only returning to settle in Nazareth after Herod's death. Luke 2:39 has them peacefully returning to Nazareth after they fulfill the legal requirements related to Jesus's birth. In other words, Luke does not seem to know that they were literally chased out of the country by the king, >> right? >> And then forced to uh to reside in another country before returning to Nazareth, >> right? And here the objection uh is is Yeah. It's just well it doesn't say that uh it doesn't preclude the possibility that the slaughter of the innocents happened and they went into Egypt. It just it just doesn't mention it. Yeah. And and this is the the same kind of thing as as earlier where you take these inongruities and suggest that hey it's just it's dealer's choice. The author could have said something but just decided not to. >> But again in in this case that is >> I thought he was running long. He was like, "Oh [laughter] gosh, you know, I one needs >> just started this story." But >> one needs to use the editorial mind uh when one [laughter] if you want to craft an interesting story. >> Yeah. And and my argument would be that is pretty criminal neglect to leave out that detail. >> Yeah. It's a pretty it's a pretty it's a it's such a strong detail, too. Like that's that that's juicy. That's a juicy part of the story. Oh, yeah. Big time. And just chronologically, it doesn't seem to work because in uh in Matthew, Herod says uh says, "When did the star appear?" And then goes and uh has everyone two years and under killed, >> which suggests that this is taking place 2 years after Jesus's birth. So Jesus is like maybe almost 2 years old, if not two years old when this is happening. >> And still in Bethlehem. and and still in Bethlehem. So, uh another indication that they lived in Bethlehem, >> right, >> in Matthew, but in Luke, it says that they uh you know, they had to present them at the temple and when all was fulfilled, they returned to their own city or their own town in Nazareth. And then it says they visited Jerusalem at the Passover every year. that does not allow for one them to uh flee to Egypt until Herod dies. It does not allow for them to be uh persona nonrada in Jerusalem for however long. It does not allow them to still be around in two years when Herod is is on the lookout. And it also suggests that they were free to come back once a year. And so it just it just doesn't fit, >> right? >> It doesn't fit. >> Well, speaking of them coming from Nazareth down to uh to [laughter] >> Bethlehem, why did they do that? Uh >> well, we have >> the mechanism in Luke is this this notion of a worldwide census. Uh Caesar wanted the world to be taxed. So, uh he he uh told everybody they had to go to their own city to be taxed. And uh the point to make here is that Rome would not have issued a census requiring everyone return to their ancestral hometown to register because that one wouldn't be possible for many people. would nuke the economy for months uh and would give the Romans utterly useless information because the whole point of the census is uh who's living and working where so we can tell the people who are governing that place this is how much we want from you in taxes. So, uh the notion that uh you would just go wherever you were from uh to register is just bafflingly just asinine just ahistorical that would not have happened. >> Uh excuse me Dr. Mlelen but I do believe that you are >> if that is your real name >> if that if that's from an accredited university that doctorate [laughter] of yours. Uh, but I do think that if you went to the British Museum and looked up uh P London 9004, the Papyrus 904, >> you would see very clearly that uh that there was a Roman edict that read gas vibious Maximus, prefect of Egypt, says, "The enrollment by household being at hand, it is necessary to notify all who for any cause whatsoever are outside their gnomes or territories to return to their domestic hearth or home that they may accomplish the customary dispensation of enrollment and continue steadfastly in the husbandry that belongs to them. >> Yes. So, aha they were they were wait a minute I think I see the problem of my own argument. [laughter] >> Yes. and and that would be that this says nothing about ancestral homestead or hometown. It says your your hearth. Um and and this is talking about returning home precisely because people traveled. People traveled for work. People traveled for pleasure. And if they're doing a census, they want to know where you live or where your your job is. >> Yeah. Where's your hearth? Get to your hearth. >> Get to the hearth. Uh Ali Alioxinfree, we need you. [laughter] We need you back at your hearth. And and this is unrelated to the notion that this census would require Joseph to travel to Bethlehem. And the the text says that he went down to Bethlehem because he was of or descended from the house and the lineage of David. It's not saying that's where he lived. It's saying that's where he descended from ancestrally. He was of that ancestral hometown. >> Uh, point of order. Luke 2:3 says that everyone went to his own city, which suggests hometown rather than ancestral hometown. Boom, you got schooled. >> Yes, it does say they all went to their own towns to be registered in verse three. And then it says, "Joseph also went from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea to the city of David called Bethlehem because he was descended from the house and family of David." So here's the interesting thing though. When you go all the way down to where it says they went home, which is uh I think Luke 2, is it 39? Yes. Uh when they had finished everything required by the law of the Lord. So So this is that um stuff in the temple with the baby Jesus and all that. Then they're they've fulfilled everything that is required of them. They return to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth. And the Greek is identical >> to the Greek of Luke 2:3. In other words, it says everybody in verse three went to their own town. According to Luke 2:39, Joseph and Mary's own town, exact same Greek, was Nazareth. Oh. >> So, if you're saying that the census only required you to go to your own town, uh then they left their own town, >> right? And they they messed up this census somehow. >> Yes. >> One way or another, they messed it up. >> Yeah. So, he just misunderstood. Uh it was pretty big mistake. He's like, "Ah, like I I showed up at SPL a day early because I thought I I I am on a committee at SBL and I thought our committee meeting was on the Friday and SPL starts on Saturday." And no, it turns out that there are a lot of meetings that take place on Friday, but my particular meeting had actually been scheduled for Saturday. So, >> I showed up a day early uh for because I didn't understand. So, um, so yeah, that kind of thing happens, but, uh, it's a much bigger mistake for Joseph. >> Too bad Joseph and Mary had to had to travel that distance while she was pregnant. That's rough. >> She's like, why would we have to go to our ancestral hometown? I don't know. I don't know, [clears throat] >> sweetie. I don't know. I just get me a donkey. >> Do they have those new electric donkeys? I need I need an e donkey. [laughter] >> Um, next thing. >> So, uh, we have no record of an empirewide census uh, from anywhere in ancient Rome. And they would not have conducted a census themselves within Herod's own client kingdom. Herod was a client king very similar to the way that uh, we we have a lot of other countries that kind of do our bidding in the United States. And we have a long history of telling countries to do our bidding. Um, [laughter] >> we're good at it. What do you want? >> Yeah. And uh and something very similar went on then. And and basically Rome said, "Hey, this is the tribute that you owe to us." And we don't care how you get it, just pay it. And then Herod would go around and say, "Give me my money." Uh, and charge taxes to people based on the tribute. And obviously Herod would also one for me, one for them, one for me, one for it would charge extra. But but Herod was in charge of figuring out how to get the money and uh all Rome want wanted, hey, we'd like this much money from you. So yeah, there's there's no the notion that there was an empirewide census that included Herod's client kingdom is not supported by the data >> except for in Tacitus's annals book seven chapter 41 >> a a tribe known as the >> say it right >> cate [laughter] >> Did I did I I misspelled that? Yeah, it's actually the I should be an L and uh the the E should be an I. So, try again to say it right. >> I can't I don't know what you just said. You say it. >> C L I T A E. >> Clee. >> Yeah, something like that. Um [laughter] misspelled something. >> That's okay. I just I should have I looked up other things. I didn't get around to looking up what that was. Okay. Uh anyway, in Tacitus, the the clee uh were required to give an account of their revenue and submit to a Roman tri submit to a Roman tribute even though uh they were subject to a client king named Archelaus. >> Yes. And this is not the Archelaus that took over rule of Judea after Herod died. This is Archelaus of Capidoshia. Uh this is a different Archelaus. So So this is brought up. >> It's my preferred Archelaus actually. Yeah, he's a better archae. But um >> this is the best one. >> Yes, the arc archelaus, if you will. Um and this is brought up a lot. Um our our good friend uh inspiring philosophy quoted a a scholar who brought up this passage as evidence that uh they would have meddled in the affairs of other client kingdoms, including imposing census, sensei, censuses um upon them. And the problem is that's not at all what the text says. I'm going to read from a translation and then correct some of the translation and then explain what's [laughter] going on here. At the same time, the Clete, a tribe subject to the Capidoshian Archelaus, retreated to the heights of Mount Taus because they were compelled in Roman fashion to render an account of the revenue and submit to tribute. There they defended themselves by means of the nature of the country against the king's unwarlike troops till Marcus Tbellius, whom Vitellius, the governor of Syria, sent as his lieutenant with 4,000 legionnaires and some picked auxiliaries, surrounded with his lines two hills occupied by the barbarians, the lesser of which was named Cadra, the other Dvara. It just goes on like that. >> I stopped paying attention. I don't know what we're >> I I did too. Um but in short it does not say that Rome imposed a census. It says that this tribe that was subject to Archelaus was compelled in Roman fashion to render an account of their revenue. Now here's the problem. Uh the it doesn't say in Roman fashion. The Latin actually says uh according to our mode they were subjected to a census. >> Okay. Now, here's the thing. If you go ask a classist what's going on here, they will every last one of them tell you, "Oh, this means Archelaus imposed a census upon the tribe that was in his own kingdom and did it in the Roman fashion, >> right?" >> And it didn't work. They objected. They ran off to the hills. And then they were giving Archelaus trouble. And Archelaus had to go, "Uh, Rome, can you help out here a little bit?" And Rome was like, "Ah, you again? Okay, send, uh, we're going to send Trabellius, Marcus Tbellius, with a bunch of legionnaires and some auxiliaries to root out the rebels that you evidently can't handle on your own." So, >> you're saying they couldn't find the >> I'm just going to say, uh, that's delightful. [laughter] Look, they were hiding. They were up under a cliff. Um, >> it's not always easy to find. It's [laughter] It's not their fault. Oh gosh. It's a good thing my wife doesn't listen to podcast. [laughter] Um, uh, but I just realized that could have reflected negatively on me and that was not where I was going. I'm just not where I was going. I promise you [laughter] >> not where I was going. Um, but that has nothing to do with Rome imposing a census on a client kingdom. That has to do with a client king imposing his own census and trying to do it in the Roman fashion. Because when Rome imposes a census census, you don't say Rome is imposing a census in the Roman fashion as [clears throat] as those Romans are to do. Yeah. >> You just say they imposed a census because they of course they're doing it in the Roman fashion. But no, this was a client king doing it as the Romans did >> um like they do on the Discovery Channel. And so um it was this has nothing to do with that. So yeah, there there are apologists who will bring this up and it is profoundly misguided. >> Yeah. And that brings us to let's get this we're running long here but that's >> now this this could go on forever but Luke 2:2 claims that the census took place when Corinius I'm going to say that name again because I slurred it. Quirinius governed in Syria. And that would be a reference to the census overseen by Quirinius when he was leot in Syria starting in 6 CE after Herod Archelaus deposed was deposed, excuse me, and Rome took over direct rule of Judea and needed to know how to tax the region. >> Yeah. Okay. [laughter] So, uh, the objection you've given me, uh, involves a word that I I >> you just say proy or proteé. >> Okay. We're not crushing our pros here. >> No. No. >> Okay. So, uh, the objection is Luke 2:2 uses the word proate, which can mean earlier or before. So, the passage should be translated. This was the registration before Quirinius began to govern in Syria. [laughter] >> And uh the problem here is that uh protection spelled slightly differently when it's used to mean earlier or before. uh is followed up immediately after by a noun or a participle uh or a a phrase that is in the genative case and that is not what we see in Luke 2:2. So there there there are scholars who have been like yeah this is while it's not an you know utterly impossible reading it is not a plausible reading and is clearly just apologetic in origin. It is just an attempt to sidestep the fact that Luke 2:2 would have to have this census and Jesus's birth dating to 6 CE, which directly contradicts Luke 1, which has it occurring during the reign of Herod the greater very shortly after his death in 4 BCE, a full decade before Quirinius took over rule. So, uh, yeah, that that objection also does not work. It's not the weakest of all the objections here, but it's far from a plausible objection to the recognition that Corinius uh had nothing to do with Syria or any census anywhere near the reign of Herod the Great. All right. Well, there you go. Uh, ap sorry apologists. Uh, your sorry apologetics don't seem to be cutting it this time, >> but next round they're going to come through with some hardcore stuff. I'm sure they will. >> You You better You better be getting down to fight and wait. So that would So because they're uh they're coming for you. >> Uh friends, thank you so much for tuning in. If you would like to get an adfree version of this show, possibly get it early, you can become one of our patrons over on patreon.com. you go over there, you give us a little bit of your money every month. We appreciate it. It keeps our our families fed. And then uh you get to be a part of uh making the show go and you get access to the to the show to the ad free version of the show. 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