Does the Bible Actually Condemn Masturbation?  🔗 **Source:** [Does the Bible Actually Condemn Masturbation?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-brX_NV8uww) [music] Hey everybody, I'm Dan Mlen and I'm Dan Beecher and this is Data Over Dogma where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. I'm struggling with a little bit of acid reflux right now as Dan knows, but but hopefully you're doing better. [laughter] >> I'm doing all right. Uh, all right. I I wonder if you're getting acid reflux because we're about to get sexy up in this joint. >> That's not usually how I respond to uh to sexy time. >> I I'll have to ask your wife about that. But this one doesn't even this one doesn't even involve your wife because today on our data over dark data after dark, which is what we're calling this uh >> this is a new segment. >> New segment. We we we thought about data up all night and uh [laughter] we we went instead with data after dark. >> Data after dark. Uh this one's about >> the pleasing of oneself. >> Uh we're going masturbation. And uh don't worry, it will not be uh an instruction manual. No. >> Uh for for the doing of the deed, but rather just >> discussion of the the biblical view of the thing. So, let's dive in >> with data after dark. [music] >> All right, Dan. Uh, the first thing that I thought of when we when we, you know, when you suggested that we would do masturbation on the show, >> not doing masturbation on the show, but rather discuss the concept uh of masturbation. [laughter] Yeah. Look for the data the the data over dogma only fans coming soon but it's not up yet. So uh so we'll we'll we'll just talk about the concept. Um and of course my brain went immediately to Onan and Genesis 38. Um and I don't and and I went and revisited that story and you know we've talked about Onan before on the show. It's not about masturbation. >> No, no, it's not. >> That's not the problem. >> Although it is. I think there somebody said there are some languages where um onin has become a euphemism or the the term to refer to masturbation. >> Well, yeah. Oninism is masturbation in sort of the parlance of our time. [laughter] >> Um he fixes the cable. Uh anyway uh no the and yeah the story is just not about that the and it has been used as a as a uh a passage that is is thought to prohibit quitis interruptus to prohibit uh any kind of birth control and to prohibit masturbation. It's just not what the discussion is about. >> Yeah. It's none it's none of those things. We talked about leverate marriage and his duty and the fact that he was not fulfilling >> his duty as uh as a leverate >> uh husband to his brother's wife. >> Yeah. When when God was like, I'm going to go peek in on making sure everything's going okay there and going. I saw that. The whole problem was that he refused to give his new wife, his late brother's widow, a child, >> right? >> That's the problem. >> Right. >> Cut and dry. And also, it's not masturbation to have sex with your wife. >> Correct. And yeah, like I don't I'm I'm somebody has to have looked into this or discussed the [laughter] the the categories here, but I'm sure that um completion outside of the spouse is uh I'm not sure that even qualifies >> the pull out method. No, it's generally not considered masturbatory, >> right? So So yeah, it's irrelevant when it comes to what the Bible thinks about masturbation. That is irrelevant. And in my opinion, the Bible never addresses it. I don't see anywhere in the Bible that that can plausibly be argued to be talking about self-pleasure. And and I think there are reasons for that. But one passage that comes up I I think in the in the past I've made a video or two where I've talked a bit about this. One passage that comes up is Matthew 5:30 >> and uh it says, "If thy right hand offend thee, cut it off and cast it from thee, for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." Yeah, that came right after the uh >> after Onan >> if if your eye I mean it that is the the part where it's talking about uh you know if you have if you lusted after Yeah. Yeah. >> then then you've committed adultery in your heart which I think is a problematic theology anyway. >> Yeah. Yeah. And then you know somebody if they really want to parse that they they might be able to be like look >> I mean you're usually thinking about something >> when when you when when you're trying to get that engine revan uh you you're looking at something or you're thinking about something but either way you're doing what is uh being uh referenced there. >> Maybe it's not your right hand. Maybe you're left-handed. Maybe maybe you have some kind of supplementation that um that you're using. Uh our our good vice president is known to uh patronize uh furniture uh from what I've [laughter] from what I have heard. But uh >> allegedly allegedly >> allegedly yeah but it still counts I think if uh if we want to read it that way I don't think the author was trying to say that. Yes. This is this is uh buried in a context of um sex, but it is primarily with a woman. And and this brings up a point about all this. When we look at what kinds of sexual activities are prohibited throughout the Bible, overwhelmingly they have to do with prohibited unions. >> What types of people are not allowed to get together? And I think the reason that masturbation didn't even qualify and is not even brought up is because we tend to think of of sex as as anything that um you know has the goal of trying to achieve orgasm or arousal or something like that. They didn't think about it that way in the ancient world like sex was >> uh it over I think I think one of the the things that was always understood to be involved was a penis. Have to have a penis. >> Okay. Right. >> And I which we know that doesn't have to be involved. >> No, it doesn't need to be in the room. But um the you know when we look at Leviticus 18:20 and 20:13 where we have the prohibition on a man taking the insertive role in an act of male same-sex intercourse, the very next thing that is addressed is beastiality and the authors say women are also prohibited from this. >> But that doesn't say anything about women when it comes to the same sex stuff, >> right? Um, and so I think I think the reason there there are a lot of scholars who had talked about this is that if there's no penis involved, then it doesn't even count as sex. And so lesbian uh female samesex intercourse doesn't even count. So isn't even a concern, at least for the Hebrew Bible worldview. And so if it's, you know, I think if it's one person taking care of themselves, you don't have any kind of penetration of of any part of anyone else's body. So it probably similarly was just not considered sex >> and so didn't even qualify for concern. Uh I I think that's probably what's going on there. There there is an argument that has been made that the concern with samesex intercourse was that it was wasting seed. >> Yeah, I was going to get to that because there's a lot I was shocked when I dove into this [clears throat] >> how much I found about like purity of like like how you how you are made impure by an ejaculation. like how much impurity and how how many rules there are >> surrounding this you know the the the discharge of seed. >> Yes. And that the the only thing that we get in Leviticus is is a nocturnal emission which is uh at least in terms of uh yeah there's there's uh impurity associated with discharge just like there's impurity associated with um with uh a woman's menstrual cycle, >> right? Um, but you do have the the references to a nocturnal emission, which is something where >> you're not even cognizant of of what's going on. That's not something going on intentionally unless you have unless you have an admirable grip on your [laughter] uh, you know, lucid dreaming, >> right? Yeah. >> In which case, >> congratulations. But, um, >> that sounds amazing. [laughter] But yeah, and and then it talks about um impurities associated with that, but that's not a prohibition on the act. >> No. >> And so you can't really read masturbation into that and say therefore masturbation would be considered unclean or prohibited. >> Yeah. >> Uh when when that's clearly not what's going on. Well, and when you know, I'm looking at Leviticus 15 and it's saying uh when any man has a discharge from his member, his discharge makes him unclean. But that includes in the marriage bed. You know what I mean? Like that includes >> any kind of thing. And so, and obviously sex within a a marital context is not going to be prohibited or or sinful. So it so yeah I mean it the fact that there is ritual un impurity or uncleanness doesn't denote sin. >> Right? And and that's a very important point to make about impurity. The ritual impurity is um does not impute wrongdoing. It's it's just this is a state that uh that requires specific ritual acts to um to resolve. Uh and so yeah, there's no prohibition uh involved there and and people have scholars have pointed out when it when getting back to the the samesex intercourse thing. If the issue was the wasting of of seed and potential progeny, we would expect masturbation to be quite explicitly prohibited >> because that could ostensibly be one of, you know, the most wasteful uh activities that an an Israelite man could engage in when it comes to potential progeny. Uh so you would expect that to be prohibited and there's it is not even addressed which is why I think the waste wasting seed argument doesn't really uh doesn't really obtain when it comes to the prohibitions on same-sex intercourse. That's interesting because I have read like what Aristotle said about semen and what a bunch of you the ancient world there were lots of different theories about what semen was and you know what it what what it purported you know a lot of times it was it was vitality it was life force or whatever. Oh my gosh. Oh gosh. >> That's a deeply problematic view on it. I mean, get over yourself, dude. >> Oh, it still goes on today. >> I know. If you've seen uh Oh, what's uh uh uh >> Dr. Strange Love? >> Dr. Strange Love. Yeah. You know that >> I deny them my essence. [laughter] >> Oh, I saw a video I saw a video today, just this morning. Somebody somebody sent it to me and it was this guy who was talking about here's this thing. His idea was do not cast pearls before swine. He was like in uh ancient Aramaic the word pearl was used as a metaphor for semen. So that p and and he was like so me and and it was so funny. His video starts off I I can't remember exactly what it says. I've got to do a response to this video. But his video starts off with something about how your dick matters. [laughter] >> That's how the video started off and I was like, I'm in. [laughter] >> I'm hooked. I'm locked in. Tell me why. And um but he the he went on to argue that do not cast your pearls before swine is do not cast your seed before unworthy uh partners or things. And and he was really >> I was I was really hoping it was don't masturbate on pigs, but okay, fine. >> Oh gosh, now you're making me What's the show Black Mirror? Um, I saw exactly one episode of that and it was that episode and I was like, >> "Pass, I'm done. This is over." >> But, uh, no, he was like, "Don't cast your pearls before digital swine." >> Oh my god. >> Was where he was going with it. But um but yeah, that's that's uh and and it's and the word is uh uh margali, margani, like there are a bunch of different ways it's it's u spelled in in Aramaic. And I was looking at everything I could find on how this was used metaphorically in the ancient world. And the closest anyone ever got to what he was saying was that as a pearl is something precious and therefore it was used metaphorically to refer to precious things which usually meant good ideas, precious thoughts, the gospel. Virginity was the closest anyone ever got to um something related to this guy's semen. Um but but yeah, obviously the and and he he went through the whole this is your vitality, this is your power, this is your manliness, this is uh your essence and and you know, don't waste it and they can rob you of it and all this kind of stuff. And it's just laughably laughably bad. I've got to do a response to that video. Yeah, it's so funny how I mean I get it in the sense that it it feels good to lionize and make yourself seem cool and big and make and so important. Yeah. >> And for the and for millennia, women were considered vessels >> and this emission from men was considered the life force. And so the man was the one who respons who was responsible for this other human being placed into this vessel. >> Yeah. >> And I think it was a real blow to a lot of people when we finally shockingly recently figured out, oh, she contributes half, he contributes half. It's a 50/50 split. >> Well, and and the overwhelming majority of it goes on in her body. Her body. >> All of it goes on in her Yeah. Exactly. like all of the important moments go on in her body and actually you know her stuff. Yeah, >> it's but it's so funny how the ancient world especially, >> you know, if you ever want to have some fun, look up what a homunculus was in the ancient world. But >> but yeah, it's it's just such a it's so it's such an an argument of of the male thing when the female thing is ju when a the male thing is just it's just goo. It's not it's like it's not magic. >> Yes. >> Your your body's going to um expel it into your sheets if if you're not doing it anyway. So it's not it's not uh anything all that special. And so if you if you really want there to be a verse about masturbation in the Bible, just sign off on that guy's asinine theory about what pearls are are representing. Um [laughter] but yeah, other than that, I think I don't think there's anything in there. Now, I I will say this though. Um, in the New Testament, in Paul, in Matthew, >> you do get the sense that sexual desire is something that is, uh, you know, you're better off without it. You you're exercise discipline. Overcome the these urges because they're the, you know, they're the artifacts of they're the baser urges of of living in a fleshly body and we're trying to transcend the the flesh. uh it's a a very kind of middle platonic view of the function of sex. Um and so I think someone like a Paul or an author of Matthew would be like, "Yeah, maybe put the stroke books away. Maybe that's not a good idea because all it's doing is is satisfying those baser urges." So I think there's a ma [laughter] there's a there's a mace to cake. No, there's a case to make. Um the dyslexia bubbles to the surface every now and then if that if that counts as dyslexia. But um there's a case to make that those authors if you asked them about masturbation would have been like oo no. But um at the same time there's a case to make that when it came to what you were doing with your own self in your own shower uh that it was nobody else's business but your own. And for every bit of sort of Pauline prudishness, >> you also have to contend with the fact that Song of Songs made it into the made the final cut. You know what I mean? Like >> like like sexuality is not a decided thing. I don't think biblically. Well, and and a lot of the the Paul Pauline prudishness and and the author of the Gospel of Matthew saying some uh make themselves Unix for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Like all of that is reflecting the influence of Grecoman convention and philosophy. Like when without that influence, yeah, we're we're definitely treating sex as something natural or at least more so. M >> uh you know um Judaism had its own uh before Judaism. I would say Judaism doesn't exist prior to uh the Greco Roman period but um Judian and ancient Israelite and Judahite thought didn't really treat sex as as something that was that sacrosan. It was really relationships that were considered the most important thing. And a lot of those relationships were related to property rights, which is why women were expected to be virgins when they got married. Men, not so not so much. It didn't really matter. like the the standards were different because there were kind of social contracts that were uh that were at play here and the values and standards surrounding sex reflected uh those those social contracts and and values and things like that. So, uh, which is, yeah, I think why masturbation probably wasn't a big deal for anyone in, uh, prior to Greco Roman period Judaism. >> I wish someone had told 12-year-old me that because [laughter] I got to say, uh, I that is not the messaging that I received. Well, and that's and that's part of the the the 12-year-old you was not a preg Grecoman Judeian. Um, you're a 20th century uh not as late 20th century as me, but a late 20th century child in America. We're we're looking back through countless interpretive lenses that have been shellacked over the top of those ancient uh Judeian ideologies. And that I think goes to show just how much we're negotiating with everything. When you've got the the pre Greek philosophical ideas and the Greek philosophical ideas in the Bible, which one takes precedence? You got you got to figure out one of them's going to win out over the other. >> It's whichever it's whichever one makes a little kid feel real real bad is is I feel like what's happening. >> Yeah. The rhetorical utility, the utility of the dogma to your boundary maintenance to your identity politics is usually going to be the deciding factor in which part of the Bible gets to be in charge and which part has to be reinterpreted. >> Right? And so I I think that's what's going on in you know high demand religions in those religious traditions that have very very firm boundaries and where most of what they're doing is curating those boundaries and Mormonism in a lot of ways qualifies as one of those kinds of religions. Yeah. Every opportunity you get to try to draw up a costly signal is is going to be exploited. And so for that reason, for a long time, masturbation has been a just straight no. Now, when you look at early Mormonism, nobody seems to care. Nobody's talking about it. Nobody's telling their kids, "Hey, stop touching that." Um, it's really in the 20th century, I think, that it that it uh becomes very acute, reaches a a climax, so to speak. My apologies. Um, but >> God damn it. [laughter] But but I think in in recent years you've seen um a a pulling back, a pulling out, so to speak. Again, my apologies. Um >> an oninism, if [laughter] you will, >> related to the emphasis on this kind of stuff. And and I and I hope it's because people are realizing it's unhealthy. It's harmful. Uh it's not a healthy way to think about your body and about sex. And uh you know we have stories of people who have taken their own lives, children who have taken their own lives because they couldn't stop doing this thing that their church leaders and their families had convinced them made them as bad as a murderer. >> Yeah. >> Or convinced them that they would be better off dead. >> Yeah. >> Um and that's so phenomenally stupid. Um >> it's pretty rough. It's pretty rough to to to put that on anybody, but a kid especially is uh yeah is ill equipped to deal with that kind that kind and illquipped to not do the let me tell you something. [laughter] >> Puberty that was a I was I was not going to not do it. That's [laughter] just I mean I tried I tried for real real hard but that's a losing battle uh at least for me. >> So there you go. All right. Well uh I I I'm glad to hear that our conclusion is that it's that that the Bible is at least neutral on the on the topic. >> Silent on Yeah. Yeah. Um so it's certainly not condemnatory. >> Yeah. Don't Don't make Don't go out and make kids feel bad or or or adults. Don't make anybody feel bad about this one. >> All right. Well, if you would like to become a part of uh making this show go, you can head over to uh patreon.com/data overdogma, which is where you can sign up and give us a little bit of your money, and in return, you'll get access to an adfree early version of every episode, as well as uh you can get access to the after/befor party, which is bonus content that Dan and I you every single week. Uh, and it we, you know, you can ask us your questions, you're likely to get an answer. So, that's uh that's probably the only way that you're likely to get an answer from us. [laughter] We're terrible in every other way. So, so that's that's your best bet right there. Thanks so much to Roger Gouty for editing the show. Thanks for s to Sam for being our right-hand man. And we will talk to you again next time. Bye, everybody., Does the Bible Actually Condemn Masturbation?, YouTube, 01kyq662rg7bhyfk4g1ww4yzjx.