Don't Get Cross With Me  ## Metadata - Author: [[Data Over Dogma]] - Full Title: Don't Get Cross With Me - Category: #articles - Document Note: --- tags: [Religious symbols, Biblical studies, Translation] author: [MISSING] source: Data Over Dogma (YouTube) reference: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI] date created: {{date:YYYY-MM-DD}} {{time:HH:mm}} --- # 🏷️ Title: Don't Get Cross With Me ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Publish PSA on “full cross” myth — context/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI&t=5 #share #articleseed - [H3] Draft one-pager on *stauros* meanings — context/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI&t=451 #articleseed #xref - [H5] Create patibulum vs stipes diagram — context/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI&t=814 #articleseed - [H7] Build Constantine timeline explainer — context/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI&t=1189 #xref #articleseed - [H10] Compare Eccl 11:5 translations table — context/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI&t=2020 #articleseed #share - [H11] Write “ruach = wind/breath/spirit” note — context/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI&t=2400 #articleseed - [H9] Draft “icons vs idolatry” FAQ — context/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI&t=1820 #articleseed #share - [H4] Curate early crucifixion graffiti sources — context/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI&t=538 #xref ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - Include links cited in or relevant to the article. ## 📝 Summary - Two hosts examine cross history and symbolism. They start with modern misuses. [Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI) - They argue Jesus likely carried a crossbeam, not a full cross. See [H5]. - They discuss early graffiti, Constantine’s role, and translation debates. See [H4], [H7], [H10]. - Risks include anachronism, overconfident claims, and translation bias in policy debates. - Bottom line: respect evidence, define terms, and separate symbols from claims. ## 📖 Main Content - Crucifixion functioned as spectacle and deterrent. Public display mattered. See [H2]. - *Stauros* can mean stake or cross. Form varied by practice and time. See [H3]. - Early depictions show T-shaped crosses and mockery of Christians. See [H4]. Background: [Alexamenos graffito](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexamenos_graffito). - Condemned often carried the patibulum, not the whole cross. See [H5]. Context: Roman practice overviews vary; sources debate details. - Constantine’s vision and the Edict of Milan raised the cross’s imperial profile. See [H7]. Context: [Battle of the Milvian Bridge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Milvian_Bridge), [Edict of Milan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Milan). - Traditions diverge on crosses and crucifixes. Icons can focus attention without implying idolatry. See [H8], [H9]. - Ecclesiastes 11:5 translation choices affect personhood readings. See [H10]. Related terms: [Ruach](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruach), [Ezekiel 37](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Ezekiel#The_Vision_of_the_Valley_of_Dry_Bones). - Use multiple translations and note Masoretic cantillation when studying Hebrew. Septuagint offers ancient interpretive evidence. See [H10]. ### 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI&t=5) Rally crosses and accuracy ### [H1] Full-cross displays misstate crucifixion practice > [!quote] [Don't Get Cross With Me](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI) by an unnamed author via [[Data Over Dogma (YouTube)]]. Published [MISSING]. Accessed {{date:YYYY-MM-DD}}. > “that is historically inaccurate and they should know better.” Modern pageantry often distorts ancient methods. Correcting myths improves literacy. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI&t=5) #share #articleseed ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [00:06:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI&t=398) Purpose of crucifixion ### [H2] Crucifixion serves spectacle and deterrence needs > [!quote] [Don't Get Cross With Me](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI) > “It's meant to be a spectacle.” Punishment signaled power and warned dissenters. Location and visibility mattered. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI&t=398) #xref ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [00:07:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI&t=468) Vocabulary matters ### [H3] *Stauros* can mean stake or cross > [!quote] [Don't Get Cross With Me](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI) > “stavros… could just be a pole.” Translation choices shape reconstructions. Define terms clearly. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI&t=468) #articleseed #xref ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [00:09:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI&t=540) Early images ### [H4] Graffiti depict lowercase T-shaped crosses > [!quote] [Don't Get Cross With Me](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI) > “a lowercase T-shaped cross.” Material culture informs form debates. Note dating uncertainties. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI&t=540) #xref ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [00:13:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI&t=814) What was carried ### [H5] Condemned likely carried only the crossbeam > [!quote] [Don't Get Cross With Me](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI) > “it was just the cross beam that they would have carried.” This matches literary references to patibulum. Avoid cinematic anachronisms. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI&t=814) #articleseed ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [00:14:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI&t=849) Inscription placement ### [H6] Sign “above his head” implies outstretched arms > [!quote] [Don't Get Cross With Me](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI) > “Pilate puts the sign above his head.” Form must accommodate titulus space. Consider multi-language length. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI&t=849) #xref ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [00:19:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI&t=1189) Imperial turn ### [H7] Constantine era elevates cross symbolism > [!quote] [Don't Get Cross With Me](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI) > “in this sign conquer.” Imperial adoption reshaped Christian imagery and power. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI&t=1189) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [00:22:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI&t=1323) Denominational variance ### [H8] Some traditions avoid cross iconography > [!quote] [Don't Get Cross With Me](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI) > “does not use the cross.” Symbol choices reflect theology and history. Track shifts over time. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI&t=1323) #xref ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [00:30:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI&t=1839) Icons and focus ### [H9] Icons function as focus, not literal deity > [!quote] [Don't Get Cross With Me](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI) > “That's just the image. That's just the symbol.” Material aids can channel attention without worshipping objects. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI&t=1839) #articleseed #share ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [00:33:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI&t=2020) Text and policy ### [H10] Eccl 11:5 reading affects personhood debates > [!quote] [Don't Get Cross With Me](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI) > “just as you do not know how the breath comes to the bones” Different translations imply different ethical frames. Cite uncertainties. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI&t=20 - Summary: Giving you good biblical data is our cross to bear, but what that cross looks like and what it symbolizes is a question! We're all very aware of the traditional crucifix or cross as a symbol of Christianity, but how did the thing that killed Jesus come to represent his followers? And why?  And is it possible that Jesus didn't die on a cross at all (that's what Jehova's Witnesses believe)? Then, we're looking at "the way of the spirit," and no, that's not a self-help book by a hippie mystic. It's Ecclesiastes 11:5, and even if it seems innocent at first, trust us: it's a puzzler! It's difficult nature is VERY evident when you look at how different translators have rendered it, but considering  it has possible implications for views about when a soul enters the body, it's an important one to look at. ---- For early access to an ad-free version of every episode of Data Over Dogma, exclusive content, and the opportunity to support our work, please consider becoming a monthly patron at: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DataOverDogma⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠      Follow us on the various social media places: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/DataOverDogmaPod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.twitter.com/data_over_dogma⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Have you ordered Dan McClellan's New York Times bestselling book ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Bible Says So⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ yet??? - URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL5YxTKUioI So when when you go to the Trump rally and you see the people wheeling around their full cross, that is historically inaccurate and they should know better. >> It's also symbolically inaccurate, but that's okay. That's a that's a question for another time. Hey everybody, I'm Dan Mlullen >> and I'm Dan Beecher and you're listening to the data overdogma podcast where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. How are things today, Dan? >> Things are good, man. today. As of today, as we record, so >> you know, a week and a half ago for all y'all, uh we won a a signal award today. >> Signal award. Yeah, we got the the gold uh there were there were a few golds in our category, but we also had the added distinction of uh winning the listeners choice award in our category. Religion. >> That's you guys. You guys did that. So, thank thanks to everyone who who voted for us and uh >> absolutely >> and uh we're we're we won a major award, a major award. >> And we we were talking about how we need to get the uh there there are medals well trophies that um that can be requested that uh we have to pay for um cuz I you know there are a lot of winners. I I imagine they're like can't be can't be sending these out to everybody. So, uh, so anyway, ex hopefully in the near future, for those of you who are watching the, uh, the YouTube video, you will see these awards, these trophies in the background. >> And, um, yeah, >> we're very fancy, you guys. I don't know if you know this, but we are fancy boys. And as of your hearing of this podcast, I will also hopefully successfully be on the other side of a dreaded procedure that that afflicts men of a certain age, >> specifically 45. >> Thank God you mentioned the colonoscopy, Dan. I think that that's a that's a very important thing for But if you're watching on the uh on the YouTube uh you will see Dan take swigs of a very bright uh yellow concoction uh that is I understand to be uh a lemon lime sports drink mixed with >> the most hate mixed with some stuff that um well we we don't need to talk about >> I I I read these instructions s again and again and again and again and again. And then when I'm ready to do the thing, I look back and I'm like, I just want to double check. >> Yes, it does say dump an entire bottle of Mirax into this >> Yeah. >> bottle of Gatorade. That's seven doses of Mirax. And And I got to down like three of those. >> So, um >> So, Dan's going to be clean as a whistle, everybody. Oh yeah, it's there going to be whistling going on for sure. Um afterwards, not before. No, no whistling at all before. Um >> yeah, no no rolling the dice. >> Uh >> it's a procedure that that I as an older man than you uh are already know. So anyway, uh those of you who are of middle age will will relate. The rest of you have lots to look forward to. Uh, one of the things that you have to look forward to is the rest of our show, which we promise will be not overburdened with colonoscopy talk. Uh, though I can't make the same promise. >> The occasional quip. The occasional quip, but yeah, we won't belabor the point. We won't belabor the point. >> Yeah, our afterparty uh the the bonus content for our for our part for our patrons. I can't make any promises. We'll see. We'll see. But we got a lot to talk about on this show because today, so you so our our our astute listeners will remember that a couple weeks ago we talked about the Star of David >> um and and how that became the symbol of Judaism and then of the nation of Israel and blah blah blah >> blah blah blah seems uh insensitive. >> Yeah. But etc. >> We didn't Yes. We we yada yada the the rest of it, >> right? Yeah. Exactly. Uh however so one of the things that we one of one bit of feedback that we got was hey what why don't we talk about the cross so our first segment is going to be about crucifixion and the symbol of the cross >> and then we are going to move on to a chapter and verse uh out of Ecclesiastes that's got some stuff to do with like when I don't it's got a lot to do with a lot and uh we're but it it might pertain to the abortion question. It might pertain to a bunch of stuff. >> Uh it might not. Uh we're just going to have to see. >> We'll see. Yeah, it's a it's an odd little duck that we found swimming around in in the uh in the pond of our of our desperation for a topic to to talk about. No, I I actually made a video this morning where I briefly addressed it and I was like, that would be fun to talk about in a bit more detail. Yeah. >> Uh Dan is constantly scooping our show on his uh other social media channels. It's fine. I'm not mad about it at all. Uh, all right. Well, let's get on with histories mysteries. And the mystery this week is uh is crucifixion. Now, there's a lot of questions surrounding crucifixion. >> Uh, it is it definitely there's one crucifixion that is most famous. Uh, and that is that of the guy next to Jesus. No, I'm just kidding. It's of Jesus. >> Yes. Uh so let's let's briefly talk about sort of the history of that >> thing that they did that method of execution that the Romans had. >> Yeah. >> And uh and what it was why why did they do I don't know I it's such a weird thing to do. >> Yeah. a particularly brutal method of execution that uh around the time of Jesus probably was reserved for sedition, for uh insurrectionists, uh things like that. This this wasn't your, you know, you got caught stealing a loaf of bread at the market, then you get crucified. It was >> uh it was for brigandry and and um but mainly for for people who are challenging the state >> and because it is a way to hang you up and put you on display as >> Yeah. It's meant to be an ignominious demise. >> Yes, absolutely. It's meant to be a spectacle. It's meant to be conspicuous >> uh as well. And uh it it seems to start with uh with the Romans. the Persians may have um in some way in inspired what was going on, but it's it's somewhat related to impalement. >> Uh and then there's impalement and then there was something else that that went on um with the Greeks it seems where there was a uh people would be >> um like clasped, chained something to just a board. >> Okay. and then left out and exposed so that animals would come and >> Oh gosh. >> Yeah. And so the um the crucifixion is is perhaps an outgrowth uh of this. >> Okay. >> But we have it it's done in different ways and and this is what I think is is fascinating. I it's been a while, but um I made a video a bit ago about why we think Jesus was crucified on a lowercase T-shaped instrument, >> right? >> Because there is a there is a a tradition that identifies as Christian that understands stavos, which is the the Greek word that is so commonly uh translated cross. It could just be a pole. >> Okay. So, estavros could be used to uh to impale somebody or perhaps their hands would be in some way aixed to the pole above their head together whether nailed or lashed or or whatever. Um, and so there there are some folks who uh point out that the New Testament doesn't really indicate one way or another uh if Jesus was crucified on this T-shaped cross or on something else. And the earliest depictions we have of crucifixion, we actually have a couple of um of graffiti that one dates to around 130ish CE and the other one dates to around 200 CE. >> Okay. And the earlier one, it's called the Putoli graffito, and it depicts uh some poor dude named Al Camila who is um up on top of a T-shaped um instrument. And >> a lowercase T >> lowerase it seems to be. Yeah. Now, the the the top the uh the vertical bar doesn't extend significantly beyond the >> uh the cross beam. the pitibulum. Uh, if you're nasty, >> and I am, >> that's the, uh, the Latin name for the crossbar. >> Okay. >> But it, it definitely depicts this person with their arms outstretched on a T-shaped cross, but that's coming about a hundred years after Jesus, and it's and it's definitely not Jesus on that cross. The next one from around 200 CE is Jesus. And this is the Alexa Menos graffitito where this was like scratched in the walls of a was probably a barracks where soldiers were were stationed. And they're making fun of some dude who's who's another soldier named Alexa Menos because there this name also occurs in like another room elsewhere in the building. >> Wow. >> But yeah, it >> not a popular dude. >> Uh evidently. No. It it was a pretty sick burn cuz it has him um in kind of a prayer posture in front of somebody who is on a cross. Again, a lower shaped tea cross only with the head of an ass. And then there is an inscription that says Alexa worships his god. >> Okay. >> And so it's kind of like you're look at you worshiping your your uh uh your donkeyheaded crucified god. >> Yeah. I think I remember us mentioning that on a on a previous episode. Yeah. >> Uh that so okay. >> So at very least from then from that time it seemed that crucifixion was a a cross thing. >> But but we do have some indications that uh that what is described in the New Testament is describing uh a an upright beam and then your cross beam the pibulum. uh we can go back into um I I think this is uh from around uh the first century. There's a a text called um the onorocitica which is um basically dream interpretation by uh some dude named Artameterus and there's a part where he talks about what happens if you are if you dream about crucifixion it says >> oh so it says to be crucified is good for all who are sailing for in yeah for in fact the crucifix is made from wood and nails just It's like a ship and its mast is like a crucifix. And so the the thing to consider is that wood and nails means you're attaching something to something else. The the crucifix itself is not just an upright beam, right? >> And if we're attaching something with nails and it looks like the mast of a ship, what do a lot of ships have in this time period? An upright beam and a cross beam that the sail hangs from. Right? So, it sounds like this person who I and I wish I could remember better when when this dated to. It's either right around the time of Jesus or um a century or two before it. Um, but yeah, that seems to suggest that we've got uh T-shaped cross and and we've got some depictions of people who are being um they are they have their arms outstretched and are lashed to a cross beam, but the cross beam is not like they're not hanging hung up on a big pole. They're standing on the ground, but the cross beam has poles on on each side. So they're they're kind of like the stocks only you're stood up and your arms are straight out uh in front of you. But uh there there are some texts that talk about how the person would carry the cross, their stavos to the place where it would be set up so that they're up there just, you know, kind of hanging there, >> right? Um, and so the the depiction of Jesus as having to carry his cross fits with some some texts that we have in Greek as well as in Latin that talk about people being forced to carry their pitibulum to the place of crucifixion. >> So they're not So when uh >> when you see the full cross when you see these goofballs carrying a full cross with wheels on the end so they so it's easier. That's not what it was like. It was just the cross beam that they would have that he would have carried. So >> Oh, I see. >> Yes. So when when you go to the Trump rally and you see the people wheeling around their full cross, that is historically inaccurate and they should know better and for a bunch of reasons they should know. >> It's also symbolically inaccurate, but that's okay. That's a that's a question for another time. >> Yes. Um, and so, so yeah, I I think scholars have uh are pretty secure in the conclusion that yeah, Jesus was probably crucified on a T-shaped cross. Additionally, you have uh Pilate puts the sign above his head >> that is supposed to read um you know uh Jesus Christ, King of the Jews. and and then you have the it's supposed to be in uh Aramaic and uh in Latin and Greek and that you couldn't really have a place for that above Jesus's head if his arms are uh up above his head. Uh particularly if you've got that whole thing written out in three different languages. It's a big >> Jesus hold this for us. We just need you to your arms are your hands are already up there. Will you just hold this? Or or they could have been like, "We could just nail the sign through his hand." >> Yeah. Yeah. You're already using a nail. You've got Okay. >> Uh let's We're getting darn close to blasphemy here. Uh we're going to be offending people if we're not too careful, which we do anyway. >> Yeah, that's that's kind of our our policy. It's true. Um it's the SOP. Um so the the cross is already by the end of the second beginning of the 3rd century CE becoming something that is associated with Christianity. Like you don't uh take the time to inscribe a cross with Jesus with the head of an ass hanging on it if that's not immediately recognizable as hey that's that one dude that everybody worships. >> Yeah. And that's interesting because it does seem like like the point of crucifixion was for it to be sort of deliberately shameful and public. >> Mhm. So it so it sounds like there was uh evidence that even early Christians were sort of taking that and sort of owning that symbol as something that was uh not necessarily something to be proud of but something to that was that martyed their their their guy. >> Yeah. >> It was a symbolism. It was a symbol of his his martyrdom. Well, and it's a way to appropriate it to um to kind of flip the script on >> right >> on the people who would understand it as as uh represent shameful. >> But so so rather than a symbol of like humiliation or or defeat or whatever, it becomes uh and I think I read something tell me about this. I think I read something about early Judaism having a uh if if you were if you were to be executed in shame, you would be hung from a tree. >> Oh, so there's a there's a passage in Deuteronomy that uh that talks about hanging um criminals, but it says if the uh I I think it says if the next day is the Sabbath, you got to take them down before nightfall. >> Interesting. because cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree. >> Okay? >> And so and and the word for tree in Hebrew 8 can mean tree, but it can also just mean wood or something made out of wood. So when you get into the New Testament, I I think it's Paul who brings this up uh but is is using the Greek, which is also ambiguous. The word for tree can also just mean wooden thing or wood. Um, and so there's some ambiguity there, uh, regarding, um, you know, you squint at Jesus on a cross and hey, it becomes a wooden thing, it becomes wood. It can overlap with this idea of being hung on a tree. So, so there is a um a degree to which the New Testament is like you thought it was a curse, but you know, Sunday, Sunday, Sunday, you can rent the whole seat, but you'll only need the edge because the the defeat the symbol of defeat has been turned into the symbol of victory. >> Okay. >> Um and there there are other earlier symbols that that seem to be more prominent than the cross in in early Christianity. the fish. Um because the word in Greek for fish uh is an um acronym >> for Jesus Christ uh God's son savior. >> Okay. >> Uh so that's so is an acronym for that. And then the symbol of the fish does that. And then you could also draw a circle and then have some lines dividing up the circle uh to make it look like a loaf of bread. And and you can trace the letters uh iota uh the um or theta, excuse me, uh epsilon and sigma to spell out. And then there an anchor was a a prominent symbol in early Christianity. >> Interesting. And then the uh the heo monogram which looks like the x with the big tall >> with a p sort of standing proud but it's actually a row which is the r sound in Greek. >> Yeah. And that would be the first two letters of Christos. >> Um which the uh the hero. So those were probably more prominent than the cross. But there is indication that uh that people would like trace a cross on their forehead when they're praying and and stuff like that. Oh, interesting. >> So, so the cross is there um but we don't have really >> it's in the mix of Christian symbols but it's not the prominent one. When does it start to become >> like what what made like it it is very strange to me >> that the instrument of this man's death >> becomes the uh the symbol for the entire religion. Like it it just it seems it seems like that is the other guy's symbol. You know what I mean? Like that's the bad guy's symbol. >> Yeah. >> So that so how did it how did it arise to the to such prominence? Do you have a sense of that? >> Um I I think it probably has to do with Constantine and Oh uh because the there's there's the famous legend of the uh the battle of uh of uh Milvin Bridge uh or Milvian Bridge. I am just pronouncing everything wrong today of Milian Bridge where where he's supposed to have seen uh a sign of a cross or the hero or both >> and who have heard the voice in this sign conquer >> and so that is uh in you know is what is supposed to have inspired his his victory there and then that leads to the edict of Milan in 313 CE which decriminalizes Christianity and then the hero and the cross become uh symbols of imperial power. >> I guess that's that it makes sense to some extent that like you know I'm thinking of it as the as the symbol of the bad guys. Well, who are the bad guys? Rome. You know what I mean? in this case the the bad guys and then the bad guys are like uh you know they embrace Christianity and suddenly yeah I can suddenly their symbol the one that that's most closely associated with Rome in the Christian sort of narrative >> becomes the symbol that they go with. That's that's really fascinating. >> Yeah. and and it's kind it as a you know you have folks like Irenaeus and and others talking about the symbolism of the cross as a sign of victory and and things like this and so imperial victory then going aha sign of the cross um it becomes kind of a different kind of symbol of victory but something that is apppropo for um Christianity's uh marriage to imperial power and the use of of symbolism to project that power that um victory that that the Roman Empire was uh so concerned to to put on display for others. So I I think that's probably what results in the popularity of uh the cross as a symbol for Christianity that that um eclipses uh the other stuff, the fish and and all of that until you had the invention of the car which allows you to create the bumper sticker which allows you to put the um you know the that costly signaling on your car until you then get feet and Yeah. Yeah. The Darwin fish >> that that fish grows feet and then suddenly uh Yeah. >> Yeah. Um so I think that's probably what's going on with the uh the use of of uh that symbol. And yeah, it has a a weird history within within Christianity. Uh you know, you have some groups that that don't use it. uh the tradition that uh you were getting out of around the time I was getting into it or or shortly before the Latter- Day Saint tradition uh does not use the cross. >> That's right. >> Anymore. >> There was a time in its history where the cross was an important symbol, right? >> Uh and uh and there was a campaign to to get rid of that. Interestingly, yeah, I remember in church talking about like hearing people very proudly talk about why we don't use the cross and and why, you know, how that >> makes us actually better Christians than the other Christians who don't who, you know, who do use the >> the symbol of of Jesus's death for his thing. And uh and yeah, that that was always a little weird to me, but but sure, I mean, I'm the one making that argument now, so I suppose I >> Well, and and I think it reveals one of the the issues with symbolism is symbolism means whatever people think it means, >> right? >> And so if you want to change it, you can change it. >> Yeah. Yeah. And you know, you you I I think it was probably President Hinckley, Latter-day Saint president and and prophet who said, "Well, we why don't you use the cross? Oh, well, we choose to focus on Jesus uh Jesus's life, Jesus as alive rather than the method of his death." And and so that's that's as a contemporary rationalization, great. But Latter-day Saints started off using it, right? >> They used it for for many many years. So, uh, it meant something different back then to them. Uh, and you know, you can go I remember this kind of a a little off track, but when I was uh 18 or 19, I forget how old I was. I spent a summer in Germany, in Austria, in Slovakia, in Switzerland, traveling around with my brother and my my grandmother, and she arranged for us to attend a high school in Vienna for a day. >> Oh. which was which uh was an unusual experience. It was it was surreal to say the least. But um >> there was there was one part where uh one of the students they were like, "Yeah, let's ask them questions." And this is half going on in German and half going on in English cuz my German was better back then, but it still wasn't wasn't um all that great. >> They were like, "What's >> their English was fine?" >> Their English was fine. Yeah. Um the the somebody asked what's what are differences between your the high school that you went to and this school and um I was like well the crucifix on the wall is one but also the Playboy calendar over here is a there I there was a calendar that had like lingerie models in it hanging on the the opposite wall. I was like both of these are are just alien to me. But um >> yeah that was um that was a fun experience. gym was was weird because uh if I recall, we went uh and played tennis on top of a building. >> They had they had tennis courts built on top of a a building in in Vienna. >> Try not to hit the balls too far a field. >> They had big nets to make sure that that we didn't. But yeah, my brother and I that's all we wanted to do. Just be just see who could who could hit one the the the furthest, get to the cathedral or something. But um the there's an interesting thing about the the crucifix cuz it's not just the cross. It's the cross with Jesus hanging on it and it is used as an icon. It is used as um something that is involved in worship. >> Yeah. >> Which you know you these days on Twitter uh the Protestants are are all in a huff about well mainly the evangelicals. They're all in a huff about Catholicism. Um, and yeah, that's one of the main things that they talk about, the uh the iconic use of the crucifix. And there are some people who will compare it to a story in the book of Numbers where uh there are these fiery serpents that bite a bunch of Israelites and and they're dying off >> and then God tells Moses, "Take a pole," >> right? And then put a a bronze serpent on the pole. And everybody, >> you know, what are those bronze serpents that you have laying around? >> You got laying on. >> The junk drawer is full of >> the animal kingdom in bronze. So just pick >> elephant. >> Serpent. Serpent. That's a lizard. Yeah. >> Oh, serpent. Okay. Serpent. Okay. Um and put it on the pole and then whoever looks at it will be healed. >> Yeah. And and this is this is functioning as a divine image because it it's basically uh manifesting the power, the presence, the authority, the agency of the deity and in this instance in order to heal. Um and then that gets that is referred to as Nahushan and that gets placed in the temple and it becomes an object of worship. And so once you get to Josiah um no I'm sorry not Josiah Hezekiah you get to Hezekiah and he's like we can't have any more of this worship in Nahushon. So they they bring it out of the temple and destroy it. >> Uh but I the there are a lot of folks who will use that story as kind of the type the um template the inspiration for the idea of Jesus on the cross. Look to Jesus on the cross. And so if you have the actual physical um example of that, that makes it much more useful. So like is and and we've talked a little bit before about using the Bible as an icon, >> right? uh like you know somebody's always going to whine about it, but I mean if that helps them focus their faith, if that ties what they believe into the the macro narrative that we find laid out in in the Hebrew Bible and in the New Testament, if that uh you know >> ties the room together, as the great poet once said, um I I don't see any reason to get uh upset about that. So >> uh that's how it's functioning. it has precedents uh in scripture. Um and and you know using material media uh is is something that goes on in the New Testament as well. It's it's not really >> it's not like we don't see evangelicals like praying towards images of Jesus. You know what I mean? We do see that. We see that all the time. >> Yeah. >> So uh or or or or genulecting or bowing or something. >> There will be a cross behind them or something like that. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So I Yeah, it is. But yeah, it makes sense to me that that as a >> that that to to use a symbol to sort of focus yourself. And so yeah, when you see uh you know, you go into a Catholic cathedral or whatever and somebody's looking up at an image of Jesus on the cross and praying. >> Yeah, that makes sense. That's it's just it's just a place to put your focus. >> Yeah. And and as we've discussed before, it's it's not much different from somebody talking to a headstone in a cemetery as if they're they're talking with their deceased loved one. It is intuitive. It is natural. It's how human cognition works. >> So So lay off. >> And if you ask them, it's not like they're going to say that they expect that thing to climb off the wall and and bless them or whatever. You know what I mean? They know that that's not >> that that's not the guy. >> Yeah. >> That's just uh that's just the image. That's just the symbol. >> Yeah. >> All right. Well, there you go. Uh it's it's one of uh the the the cross, one of history's mysteries >> uh explained, revealed here on on the show. >> Well, and there are books and books and books more that could be written on on uh the history and the usage of that symbol. But but hopefully that was a um a good cursory overview of >> Yes. Exactly. >> why we think it looked the way it did and how it's been used. All right, let's move on uh to our chapter and verse. And this week's lesson is from uh Ecclesiastes chapter 11. >> Chapter 11. Yeah, this is an odd one. This is not one that people are going to be like, "Oh yeah, we uh my pastor preached about that last week." Nobody's pastor has ever preached about this passage >> about Yeah. So, um, >> I don't even know that I know anything about Ecclesiastes. I don't even know what the word Ecclesiastes means. >> Well, the Hebrew is Cohellet. So, that should clear things up for you. But, uh, >> thank you for for doing that because I was uh I was unclear and now it's all come clear to me. >> Yes. Ecclesiastes is where we get the uh um the wonderful song uh to everything turn. There is a season. >> Um, >> yeah. And I I I'm pretty sure I've butchered those lyrics, but um there's a it was probably written in it's attributed I I think it's attributed to Solomon, which it obviously isn't, right? >> Actually written by Solomon. Um but it is probably written in the 3rd century BCE. So it was probably written um in the uh Henistic period. >> Okay. uh you see some uh there are some lone words from Aramaic uh a couple that seem to be Greek. So it and it is addressing uh some more Greek themes but it is uh the chapter 11 verse 5 is just talking about the mysteries of God. Um >> and verse 5 says I'm going to read it in a few different translations. First >> in the King James version. >> Okay. uh the Paul's version um as thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all >> you don't know that you don't know these things you don't know what's going on >> what is the way of the spirit I'm pretty sure that that was a kung fu movie wasn't it the way of the spirit >> uh well it is derk haru uh in in Hebrew So, uh, The Way of the Spirit. Yeah, that was, um, oh, I'm trying to remember the name of the, uh, uh, the Kung Fu movies from Bob's Burgers, and I totally blanked on >> the the Hawk and Chick movies. >> Hawk and Chick. Yes. Um, the seaweed monster. Um, so that's a that's pretty traditional in uh, translation of that. However, the first two clauses could also be put together into one clause. And this is what the NRSVE does because it says just as you do not know how the breath comes to the bones in the mother's womb, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything. >> That is very different. >> Very different. Yeah. And it all depends on whether or not you want to, you know, put a a comma or a semicolon or an M dash if you're nasty. I get I get told all the time people will be like, "Hey, just be careful using the M dash because people will think you're using AI." It's like screw AI. I've been using an M dash. >> Look, since the internet started, I will not have this. >> I am an old school M-asher and and that Johnny come lately chat GPT can can go M dash itself away. >> Uh good recovery. Way to stick the landing there. >> Thank you. But but this is an interesting passage because um I've talked a lot in the past about how uh the mainstream Jewish position on ensulment on fetal personhood is that the fetus doesn't become a person until it draws its first breath until birth basically >> right >> but that's not entirely accurate for the entire Hebrew Bible because in Grecoman period Judaism There was influence from Greek philosophy toward uh this Aristotleian notion of ensulment where the soul entered the body once the fetus had become fully developed. And the evidence of that was the quickening where the mother can feel the fetus moving independently in her womb. And so if we take the NRSVE's reading, just as you do not know how the breath comes to the bones in the mother's womb would suggest this is a reference to the quickening >> where where the fetus moving independently is compared to breath coming to its bones. Um and so breath is being used synonymous for life here. It's coming to life, meaning breath is coming to its bones. And so I I think it's an interesting intersection of the pre-existing view that breath is the fundamental constituent element of life, meeting the new Greek philosophically um influenced view that the quickening is an indication of life. And so we're talking about the quickening as breath coming to the bones in the mother's womb. If that's how this passage is to be interpreted, uh I think that's an interesting uh that would be one of the only occurrences in all the Hebrew Bible of a position on fetal personhood that differs from the traditional Jewish perspective that the human life begins at birth at the drawing of the first breath. >> Right. I can I can I just add an interesting wrinkle to the mix? Wrinkle it >> because I too looked at multiple different translations. >> Okay. NIV, which I would expect >> Oh, don't bring up the NIV. >> Hang on. >> Just kidding. Go ahead. Hang on with me. See, hang with me here. Because I would expect NIV if there is an option to like signal fetal personhood. >> Yeah. >> I would expect NIV to run toward that option. >> Yes. >> Uh but they don't. Okay. NIV instead has it as as you do not know the path of the wind or how the body is formed in a mother's womb. So you cannot understand the work of God. >> Yeah. >> And that's that's fascinating. That's that's about as far that A does not mention spirit, B does not mention breath. >> Yeah. >> But it but but makes it a totally different thing unrelated to the fetus thing. Just like you know all we are is dust in the wind man >> until you can paint with all the colors of the wind you do not know God's ways. Um and yeah the so the word uh that they're you said they they rendered wind. >> Yeah they it says as you do not know the path of the wind. >> Yeah. So that would that's ruach which can fundamentally it refers to wind or breath. Okay. And spirit was conceptualized as kind of related to breath, wind because you can't see it but it's moving around. Uh and so you have all those different words used uh to refer to spirit, breath, wind. But what's interesting is it says the path of which means the spirit. M >> so it could be the spirit of God >> uh like a like a fire is burning. Uh it it could be a reference to that or or it could just be um you know the the spirit that enters uh the the fetus's body. Yeah. and and makes the bones come to life. Cuz because when we go to Ezekiel, we go to Ezekiel 37, the the valley of dry bones, it's uh it's usually translated breath. It's I I'm almost positive it's ruach there, but it's usually translated when the breath enters the bones. Uh but it's talking about it could be the the spirit. Let me see what uh NRSV uee says here. Um in Ezekiel, yeah, proph Ezekiel 37:9. Then he said to me, prophesy to the breath, prophesy, mortal, and say to the breath, thus says the Lord God, come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain that they may live. So the the valley of dry bones is going to have sineu and muscle and flesh um you know go creep to it and then the ruach and and is that ru? Yeah, that's haru is going to enliven things. So >> um but yeah they they go with breath there in uh the NRSVE and I imagine yeah NE says breath KJV says breath. I imagine your your dirty little NIV is gonna say uh same breath as well, but I don't have for some reason I don't have the NIV in my accordance. >> Okay. >> Uh they probably were like, "Yeah, don't >> don't >> we know better than Yeah, you don't want to. >> I just, you know, it's it's so interesting. I you you you know we con we talk constantly about how uh how translation makes like the the task of translation and how it's and and the task of interpretation and uh it's just interesting to me because every now and then you and I will see someone in a comment section or someone online talking about how I'm I'm the real kind of Christian. I don't interpret the Bible. I just believe the Bible. >> Yeah. Just listen to what it says. >> And it's like how when there are three totally valid interpretations or to or totally like understandable reasons why you would say spirit, wind, breath, and and those can mean three wildly different things. >> Mhm. uh you know is it the way of the spirit or is it the way or is how the breath comes into the the the the bones of in your mother's womb? I it just seems like uh it's so obvious. And what's really funny is that most of those people who are like I don't believe in interpreting the Bible. >> Yeah. >> They're KJV people like straight down the line. They're hardcore KJV. So to tell them, oh well, the NRSVUEE would give you some ammo in the uh in in the uh abortion fight, that's an interesting thing to tell them, but uh they may not, you know, but they're KJV people. They can't >> Yeah, they're it's funny when you'll because every now and then you'll see somebody's preaching, somebody's making a, you know, a Tik Tok video or something like that and they will fertively switch translations. Uh and and it's fun to see them getting called out for that because >> yeah cuz they they'll realize that oh uh this translation over here is good for what I'm saying in this part of the verse but uh the next verse I need to be in this other translation over here. So so sometimes they will just very quietly uh switch translations for uh precisely that reason. But yeah and and with the uh ruach that goes all the way back to Genesis 1. Um, how do you translate uh Genesis 1:2 where uh you've got the uh Elohim alim, which in the King James version is the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters, but that could be a divine wind. >> Uh that could be uh it could be God's breath. Uh it could be the spirit of God. That could be interpreted in a variety of different ways. And so what are you going to >> And the NRSVE says, "While a wind from God swept over the face of the waters." >> Interesting. >> Yeah. Translation makes a makes a big difference. And when folks who do not do not understand the the complexities of translation philosophy or even of of ch picking your source text, how did you come up with the source text you're using? uh you know because when you look at Ecclesiastes 5 the um or excuse me Ecclesiastes 11:5 >> Yeah. >> Uh the some of the cancellation marks might indicate that uh might push you in the direction of one interpretation over and against another. Whereas if you ignore the cancellation marks you you might be led in the direction of a of a different interpretation. So all those decisions >> cancellation marks meaning the the the diiocritics in the Hebrew is that what we're talking what's okay >> so so the the Hebrew the the maseretic text it has the vowels those are are dots and dashes that are written above and below and then you have um the dagesh which is a a dot that's put in the middle of characters but then you also have in the maseretic tradition what are called canellation marks usually and these are indications of uh how singers are are going to in tone >> and then also um >> caners. Okay. >> Yeah. And and they also associate words together >> like you you'll see um disjunctive or conjunctive uh marks indicating we're we're taking this word with the next one and and stuff like that. So so that can influence how one interprets it as well. >> Okay. >> Uh and then you know you might go look at the septuagent. What does the Septuagen have to say here? That that would be as close as we can get to an ancient commentary, you know, a a 3rd or 2nd century BCE commentary on the Hebrew. So, so usually we can understand this is how at least whoever translated this understood this text >> in the 3rd or 2 century BCE, which gets us a little closer to when it was originally written. or at least with Ecclesiastes, you know, maybe it was the dude's neighbor >> who who who translated it cuz >> cuz it's already Ecclesiastes and Daniel are probably the two latest texts >> in the entire Hebrew Bible. Ecclesiastes is probably third century Daniel, middle of the second century. But um I I think it is fascinating to see maybe again depending on how you translate it. >> Uh a little window into this uh Grecoman influence on or yeah Greor Roman influence on on Jewish understandings of ensolment and then you know the Septuagent's translation of Exodus 21 indicates that and Pho's discussion of of ensolment indicates that. So, uh, I think it's just another interesting piece of the puzzle. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think I love that. I think that that's really fascinating. >> Yeah. >> All right. Well, friends, thank you for joining us. If you would like to become a part of getting this show off the ground every week, uh, the way there are a couple ways you can do that. You can go to Apple uh you however you're listening to us. If it's Apple podcast, if it's Spotify, if it's whatever, uh maybe it has a place for you to give us five stars. That'd be great. Remember, uh even if you think we're a fourstar show, you have to give us five because you're canceling out people who hate us and give us one star without even listening to the show. So, >> give us that extra star just for uh just for the cancellation uh thing. Yeah. >> And that that does happen. That even happened on my book. Somebody gave me a onestar review on on Goodreads or something. And somebody was like, "What didn't you like about it?" 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Anyway, uh, thank you all so much for joining us and thanks to Roger Gaudy for editing. We'll talk to you again next week. Bye everybody. [Music], Don't Get Cross With Me, Data Over Dogma, 01k8jxy1fd2fs85sr37m94ndhv.