Enterprise or Upstream (How to Decide)  ## Metadata - Author: [[YouTube]] - Full Title: Enterprise or Upstream (How to Decide) - Category: #articles - Document Note: --- tags: [networking, enterprise-infrastructure, sonic] author: Adam Dunstan source: YouTube reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVMS1kPRwVg date created: 2024-12-19 20:30 --- # 🏷️ Title: Enterprise or Upstream (How to Decide) ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Evaluate procurement process optimization before white box switching — save more on cost #procurement - [H2] Assess team skills for DIY vs partnership approach — significant commitment required #planning - [H3] Insist partners push contributions upstream — unlock community benefits #opensource ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Enterprise or Upstream (How to Decide)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVMS1kPRwVg) ## 📝 Summary - Adam Dunstan, independent consultant with extensive networking experience, discusses choosing between enterprise and upstream versions of SONiC - Key reasons for white box switching: operational automation, better tooling integration, simpler platform integration, new functionality development - Bad reasons: expecting unlimited choice (limited by ASIC vendors targeting high-volume customers), cost savings alone (procurement optimization more effective) - Upstream (GitHub version) provides community leverage vs enterprise versions that may not contribute back - Three approaches: operate only, partner for integration, or full DIY (requires significant team commitment) - Bottom line: Always push for upstream contributions to unlock community benefits and avoid vendor lock-in ## 📖 Main Content Adam Dunstan presents a strategic framework for deciding between enterprise and upstream SONiC implementations. Drawing from his experience at CenturyLink (saved $250M) and Mercedes-Benz (saved 25M euros), he argues that the primary value of white box switching lies in operational automation rather than cost savings alone. The ecosystem complexity requires understanding four layers: ASIC vendors (Broadcom, etc.), ODMs, software layers, and ongoing support. ASIC vendors drive feature availability by targeting high-volume cloud providers, potentially limiting choice for smaller deployments. Dunstan distinguishes between upstream (GitHub-hosted, community-supported) and enterprise versions (may be forks without upstream contribution). He advocates strongly for upstream approaches to leverage community development—potentially thousands of engineers vs. Cisco IOS's peak of 300-400 engineers. Three implementation approaches exist: operational-only, partnering for integration work, or full DIY requiring diverse technical skills including ASIC programming, kernel development, and hardware integration. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVMS1kPRwVg?t=0) — [H1] Speaker Introduction and Background - Key idea: Extensive experience from Bridge Communications through Avicii terabit routers to white box switching - Evidence: "I've been in this business for a long time... first of the terabit routers using supercomputer technology" #### ⏱️ [02:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVMS1kPRwVg?t=150) — [H1] Good Reasons for White Box Switching - Key idea: Operational automation is the primary driver, not traditional set-and-forget networking - Evidence: "Traditional networking guys will go now that it's up and running the routing protocols take care of it all... but the reality of that is way in the past" #### ⏱️ [04:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVMS1kPRwVg?t=255) — [H2] Platform Integration Benefits - Key idea: Network infrastructure should integrate with existing systems rather than requiring specialist platforms - Evidence: "Why do I need a specialist Network platform... most CIOs... would like it to kind of disappear and be part of my platform" #### ⏱️ [05:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVMS1kPRwVg?t=345) — [H3] New Protocol Development Capabilities - Key idea: White box switches enable custom protocol implementation previously impossible - Evidence: "I'm working with some guys who are building new protocols... we can actually put new protocols inside a switch pretty easily" #### ⏱️ [06:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVMS1kPRwVg?t=390) — [H1] Bad Reason: Expecting Unlimited Choice - Key idea: ASIC vendors target high-volume customers, limiting options for smaller deployments - Evidence: "They're chasing large volumes... building systems for large players Cloud providers... thousands and thousands of switches" #### ⏱️ [08:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVMS1kPRwVg?t=480) — [H2] Legacy Infrastructure Challenges - Key idea: Finding white box solutions for legacy 10/100 Mbps infrastructure proves difficult - Evidence: "Thousands of these 10 and 100 gigs 100 megabit switches... it was a real challenge to go and find a white box switch" #### ⏱️ [09:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVMS1kPRwVg?t=555) — [H1] Bad Reason: Cost Savings Alone - Key idea: Procurement optimization delivers larger savings than technology changes - Evidence: "At Century over a couple of years I saved them 250 million dollars... that wasn't because we did switches it's because we changed the way we did procurement" #### ⏱️ [10:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVMS1kPRwVg?t=630) — [H1] Ecosystem Complexity - Key idea: White box switching requires understanding supplier relationships instead of single vendor integration - Evidence: "You've got to go and dig into the place that I used to live in... understanding the suppliers to your vendors" #### ⏱️ [12:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVMS1kPRwVg?t=720) — [H2] ASIC Vendor Limitations Example - Key idea: Broadcom switches cannot do simple port-to-port forwarding due to architecture requirements - Evidence: "You really can't do this because of the way that the forwarding and control is instantiated... you've got to build Bridge domains" #### ⏱️ [14:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVMS1kPRwVg?t=855) — [H2] Upstream vs Enterprise Definition - Key idea: Upstream is GitHub-hosted community version, enterprise may be forks without contribution back - Evidence: "Upstream is the thing that's on GitHub... Enterprise version is something other than that" #### ⏱️ [15:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVMS1kPRwVg?t=945) — [H3] Vendor Claims vs Reality - Key idea: Some vendors claim SONiC support without upstream hardware support - Evidence: "There are vendors out there today where they say hey we support Sonic their Hardware support isn't an upstream" #### ⏱️ [17:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVMS1kPRwVg?t=1020) — [H1] Implementation Approaches - Key idea: Three levels - operate only, partner for integration, or full DIY - Evidence: "Am I just going to operate a network... partner with someone... or DIY" #### ⏱️ [18:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVMS1kPRwVg?t=1110) — [H2] Partnership Approach Example - Key idea: Even large telcos partner to avoid ASIC-level programming complexity - Evidence: "We did not want to go and have to get the broadcom code... we still went and partnered someone to do that" #### ⏱️ [20:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVMS1kPRwVg?t=1200) — [H1] Community Scale Potential - Key idea: SONiC community can leverage more engineers than traditional vendor development - Evidence: "Cisco Systems and iOS at its peak is perhaps 400 Engineers... not a huge number compared to the number of people that can be leveraged against the future of Sonic" #### ⏱️ [21:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVMS1kPRwVg?t=1290) — [H1] Upstream Advocacy - Key idea: Insist partners and ODMs contribute to upstream to unlock community benefits - Evidence: "I believe you should insist that they push it to Upstream... if we don't unlock the community we won't have anything different" ## 📚 References - [Enterprise or Upstream (How to Decide)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVMS1kPRwVg) - SONiC GitHub Repository - Broadcom SDK Documentation - ASIC Vendor Platforms ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - White box switching's main value is operational automation enabling cloud-like provisioning workflows, not traditional cost savings - The ecosystem requires understanding ASIC vendors, ODMs, software layers, and support—choice is limited by vendors targeting high-volume customers - Three approaches exist: operate existing systems, partner for custom integration, or build complete in-house capability requiring diverse technical skills - Always advocate for upstream contributions to leverage community development rather than creating isolated enterprise forks ## 📰 Newsletter **SONiC Strategy: Choosing Your Path Forward** If you're evaluating SONiC for network infrastructure, Adam Dunstan's framework helps clarify the decision between enterprise and upstream approaches. The key insight: pursue this technology for operational automation benefits, not just cost savings. **Key Considerations:** - **Good reasons**: Operational automation, platform integration, custom protocol development - **Bad reasons**: Expecting unlimited choice (ASIC vendors target high-volume customers), cost savings alone (optimize procurement instead) - **Implementation paths**: Operate-only, partnership, or full DIY (significant commitment required) **Strategic Recommendation**: Always push for upstream contributions. SONiC's community potential far exceeds traditional vendor development teams. The ecosystem complexity requires understanding suppliers throughout the stack, but the automation and integration benefits can transform network operations for organizations ready to invest in the approach. Resources: [SONiC GitHub](https://github.com/sonic-net/SONiC), [Networking Documentation](https://docs.sonic-net.org/), [Community Forums](https://github.com/sonic-net/SONiC/discussions) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create SONiC integration workshops and automation demos - Education: Develop curriculum covering ASIC ecosystem and vendor relationships - Developer experience: Improve upstream contribution documentation and tooling - Developer marketing: Highlight community scale advantages over enterprise approaches - Community management: Foster partnerships between enterprises and upstream contributors #### OSPO - Policy & Governance: Establish guidelines for upstream-first networking technology adoption - License Compliance: Review SONiC and ASIC vendor licensing requirements - Security Management: Assess vulnerability management across networking ecosystem components - Software Inventory: Track networking infrastructure dependencies and upstream relationships - Developer Support: Provide training on networking ecosystem complexity and vendor relationships - Community Engagement: Support SONiC upstream contributions and community participation - Strategic Alignment: Align networking automation goals with broader platform integration objectives #### Community - Maintainers: Support SONiC maintainers with testing resources and feedback - Contributors: Create onboarding programs for networking engineers new to open source - Sponsors: Fund upstream SONiC development and community infrastructure - Ecosystem: Coordinate between ASIC vendors, ODMs, and software contributors ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Organizations pursuing SONiC primarily for cost savings will achieve less value than those focused on operational automation - Upstream SONiC adoption will accelerate as community development capacity exceeds traditional vendor engineering resources - ASIC vendor feature roadmaps drive white box switching capabilities more than software layer innovation - Partnership approaches will dominate over DIY implementations due to ecosystem complexity requirements ### 📊 Methodology - Survey SONiC adopters to compare cost savings vs automation benefits achieved - Analyze GitHub contribution patterns to measure community development velocity vs traditional vendor release cycles - Study ASIC vendor product announcements correlation with SONiC feature availability - Interview organizations to categorize implementation approaches and success factors ### ❓ Questions - How can smaller organizations access white box switching benefits without high-volume ASIC vendor targeting? - What governance models best ensure enterprise contributions flow back to upstream communities? - How do partnership agreements balance proprietary customization needs with upstream contribution requirements? ### 🔮 Future Research - Comparative analysis of SONiC community development velocity vs traditional networking vendor engineering capacity - Economic modeling of procurement optimization vs white box switching implementation costs - Technical assessment of ASIC vendor roadmap influence on open networking feature development ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Network engineers need broader ecosystem understanding beyond single-vendor relationships - Policy: Open source networking policies should mandate upstream contribution requirements - Security: Distributed ecosystem creates more complex vulnerability and update management requirements - Education: Networking curricula must include ASIC vendor relationships and community development models - Funding: Investment in upstream communities may yield better returns than enterprise support contracts ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Grade 12-14 (technical content with industry jargon) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: None identified in video presentation - Improve: Ecosystem architecture diagrams, vendor relationship maps, decision tree flowcharts #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full video presentation with expert narration - Improve: Podcast-format discussion with Q&A segment #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Technical definitions, industry examples, analogies to traditional networking - Improve: Glossary of ASIC vendor terminology, procurement vs technology comparisons #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: None identified - Improve: SONiC deployment labs, vendor evaluation checklists, ecosystem mapping exercises #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear decision framework, cost-benefit analysis, systematic approach comparison - Improve: Quantified ROI models, decision matrices, risk assessment frameworks #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Conference presentation format with community context - Improve: Discussion forums, peer experience sharing, community contribution guides #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Self-contained presentation covering complete decision framework - Improve: Self-assessment questionnaires, individual planning worksheets, reflection prompts #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Ecosystem thinking, supplier relationship patterns - Improve: Industry lifecycle analysis, technology evolution patterns, market dynamics ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Video has spoken content but no visual elements described - Improve: Audio descriptions of any slides or visual elements, structured transcript with headings #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard YouTube player controls - Improve: Chapter navigation, searchable transcript interface #### Contrast and readability - Present: YouTube's default player interface - Improve: High contrast player options, customizable text size for transcripts #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive YouTube interface - Improve: Dedicated transcript page with text customization options #### Media and captions - Present: Audio content available - Improve: Professional captions, downloadable transcript, multiple language options #### Forms and interactions - Present: Basic video controls - Improve: Accessible video bookmarking, note-taking interface integration #### Standards reference - Video content needs WCAG 2.2 AA compliance for captions and audio descriptions ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: US-centric examples (CenturyLink, Mercedes-Benz) - Improve: Global networking infrastructure examples, international regulatory considerations #### - Document Tags: [[planning]] [[opensource]] [[procurement]] - Summary: Enterprise or Upstream (How to Decide) - URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVMS1kPRwVg so hi my name's Adam Dunstan and uhI'm not affiliated with anybody I'm anindependent consultant and uh so firstyou know it's great to be here and theopportunity to speak to you guys andhopefully uh you know I can provide someinformation that's interesting and andhelpful to you I'm going to talk aboutsomething a little bit differently herebut first I should probably say you knowwhat qualifies me to talk about this soI've been in this business for a longtime you know when I started thepredominant vendors were BridgeCommunications and vital links so I'm really dating myself when I say thosekind of names and um you know along theway I ended up working on lots ofdifferent products and uh I ended up awelfare Communications in Technical anduh and product management roles and Iwas lucky enough to be recruited by acompany called Avicii systems in thelate 90s where we built you know thefirst of the terabit routers usingsupercomputer technology and you knowour primary advisor was Bill dally youknow the founder of the creat or theinventor of the create c3d now thecurrent CTO of uh of Nvidia I left that business for a little whileI ended up in the Telemetry business uhin the cable Market uh on cable datanetworks and along the way you know wethe co-founder of that company and I gota bit bored with that business and wewent and built I think what was thefirst SD BNGum so often if I'm b g and we ended upselling that company to uh to a UScarrier and uh I'll talk about the restof it up uh in my presentations we goforward from there but uh that's where Igot back into the into the switchingbusiness uh back into the white box switching business and uh subsequentlyfrom CenturyLink and Mercedes-Benz Iworked in uh using white box switchesand the ecosystem solet me um continue on from here a littlebit so you know I guess the audience inthe room here probably knows all of thisstuff but perhaps some of the people onthe on the video out there looking at itthis is perhaps more relevant to themI thought I'd first start by you knowkind of why are you here when you'relooking at this technology and you knowI'm a big believer in operational Automation and that was kind of thereason that we did wipe our own whitebox switch program at CenturyLink andwhy we did it at Mercedes-Benzumyou know if you roll back to what we doin routing there's a been a tremendousamount of work done on activatingswitches and getting them up into thenetwork but then you know traditionalnetworking guys will go now that it's upand running the routing protocols takecare of it all right I mean we don'treally have to do much beyond that butthe reality of that is way in the past Imean you go and look inside and youcarrier Network there's mpls vpns you're provisioning things continuously gettinga modern Cloud Network you create a VPCyou go touch switches and you know theopportunity to do operational uhautomation is is significant in thistechnology so that's the reason you'rehere I think you know it's a greatreason you know better integration withtooling perhaps there's some greatNetwork orientated tools listen this guytalk about Suzy Q over here but there'sanother school of thought here which iswhy wouldn't I just plug it into thestuff that I've got running othersystems and so you know why do I need a specialist Network platform and I'm kindof at that school why do I need aspecialist Network platform in fact ifyou ask most cios about it lookingthey're like why am I still talkingabout it you know I would like it tokind of disappear and be part of myplatformsimpler integration perhaps you know newfunctionality I'm working uh with someguys who are building new protocolsright now and we're using Sonic and uhand Barefoot systems so we can actuallyput new protocols inside a switch pretty easily I mean that's something that hasbeen tremendously difficult to do upuntil nowbut what are bad reasons well you knownot everyone's going to love some ofthese things if you're going into Sonicbecause you think you're going to getchoice you might be sadly mistaken asyou head into it and it's a fairlysimple reason to explain why thishappens if you go back and I'm going totalk about ecosystem if you go back andlook at the vendors that are feedingthis business and at the base of this isAsics and the people who are building A6 broadcom the rest of these guys they'rechasing large volumes and so they'rebuilding systems for large playersCloud providers people who are buyingthousands and thousands of switches soif you're at the other end of the scalehere and you don't really need a 400 gigport on on your switch you're going tobe in a different place altogether agreat example of this when I was acentury you know one of the problemsthat we had was there were thousands ofthese 10 and 100 gigs 100 megabit switches doing control systems for allthis Legacy stuff all through thecompanyand we weren't using Sonic there we usesomething else but uh it was a realchallenge you know to go and find awhite box switch that we could go andpull that Network out and replace withsomething else we ended up using youknow trying to use Helix Force for thisbut it was kind of difficult so ifyou're not in the tens of thousands ofswitches and you're in the smaller groupyou end up at the trailing edge of thetechnology and so you might find there's not as much Choice as you hope therewould be there's a lot of choice at theat the high end at that obvious end ofthe marketbut the other one that I thinkum is a little controversial is if youjust here for cost you shouldn't be hereI mean if you're just here for cost youshould be just going and talking to theprocurement guysthey're a better and easier ways to goand get a lower cost Network solutionthan going to all the trouble of doingthis you know at Century over a couple of years I saved them 250 milliondollars in capital and believe me thatwasn't because we did switches it'sbecause we changed the way we didprocurement and Mercedes-Benz I savedthem 25 million euros on a data centerbuild by changing the way we didprocurement it had little to do with thetechnology associated with so I wouldurge you if you're here for costyou're in the wrong place go talk toyour procurement guys they can sort thatout for you and and I can tell you howto do it but that's a story for adifferent day the other thing you have to understandas you go into this business is it is avery different ecosystem to the one thatyou used toyou used to call up a vendor and theecosystem was completely containedwithin that vendor but now when you dothis with Sonic and any one of thesewhite box switching platforms you've gotto go and dig into the place that I usedto live in when I was a product managerwhich is understanding the suppliers toyour vendors is effectively what you'redoing so there's a bunch of people in itwe already talked about the Siliconvendors and I know a couple of them I've worked with a few but I don't know Idon't know all of these guysthe features of the switch that youprocure are largely driven by the chipvendor that you procure from a veryexample of you know thinking about someof these problems so another one at thecarrier you know we needed we had allthese places where we needed simplecross connects and by simplecross-connect I mean we wanted anEthernet to go in one port and to go atthe other and of course you can do thisand they had been doing this with V withnpls vpns and all that stuff but the challenge with that was you knowrelatively difficult to configureand the second problem with it is thatwhen we were doing that type of packetswitching we were part of the securitystack right so we couldn't say that wewere directly isolating this customer orthat function from this function becausebroadcast domains all the other stuffgoing on with that so we went off andsaid let's go build a uh a switch abuild of software that lets us go in one port out the other and that's all itneeds to do wellwe went off and we grabbed a broadcomswitch and we started in this path andthose of you who've programmed inbroadcom on sgx will know that youreally can't do thisum because of the way that theforwarding and control is instantiatedin the switch you've got to build Bridgedomains when you do Layer Two staff andyou've got to attach ports to bridgedomains and you can't just say why thisport to that Port we of course hopedlater on that we could do this withBarefoot but then Barefoot was a different set of problems associatedwith itthe next part of the chain isunderstanding the odm right becauseyou've got to understand what's gettingbuilt and what the support is becausethere's a bunch of other componentsassociated with that tooyour lab on top of that software andthen ongoing support and you have adifferent ecosystem that you have to goand understandso for those who don't know and I knoweveryone in the room here knows thisquestion really what what is Upstream soUpstream is the thing that's on GitHub Imean it's it's as simple as that it's a set of supported platforms and it's thesoftware up therean Enterprise version is something otherthan that and it may be very close tothe Upstream versionit may be based on that or it may not bein maybe a version that is forked fromthat that has has no that doesn't submitback into the upstream and there's allsorts of variation in between thosethings and I'm a big believer inUpstream at the end of the day you getleverage from being in upstream and so I'm going to talk a little bit moreabout that as I go along today but incase you don't know the differencebetween these two things there arevendors out there today where they sayhey we support Sonictheir Hardware support isn't an upstreamyou go and look for it simply is notthere and so they can of course claimthat they're using Sonic and it isactually true but you know your mileagein using that technology is going tovarynext thing you got to think about is youknow what does it take to build thisstuff and you know I got a rough idea of how many people it takes to have areasonably supported organization ofSonic but it's worth thinking about allof the things that you need to go offand do and some of the things requireyou to be to get toolkits that youreally can't easily get your hands on aswell with particular switchman Asicvendors but these are the rough kind ofthings that you need to go off and do soI think about this in kind of threedifferent layers am I just going tooperate a network that runs Sonicam I going to partner with someone who'sgoing to do some of the work for me so when we were at the when I was at thetelephone company we didn't use Sonic weused anotherum source code provider to go and buildour white box switches and and thereality the dirty secret perhaps is thatthis isn't new news when I was at Aviciiwe bought bgp code and that was in the90s I mean no one the days of you knowsomeone walking in and there being a a cuh say types in main.c and this and thecursor flashes at them in routingsoftware they've been gone for a longlong long time um but um you knowwe went down the path there ofpartnering because what we didn't wantto do is we did not want to go and haveto get the broadcom code such that wecould work in the chipset the part thatsio does for us today so even though wewrite all the code around the outside ofit we still went and partnered someoneto do that of course the last part ofthis is DIY and DIY is a significantcommitment I mean it is not for thefaint of heart at all I mean it requires you to have a very diverse team with allof this set of skills associated with itbutcan you still benefitif you can simplify operations you canmake your customers happy and you cansave moneyperhaps you uh have a management systemand you're Distributing Telemetry dataover a Kafka bus because you've got lotsof consumers of that data it's reallyeasy to do that with Sonic really hardto do it with other stuff so there's alot of great reasons to go down thispathperhaps you do want to flow all the way through a customer goes and asks to dosomething like we see in the world ofthe cloud today the great example of VPCokay press a button say I want to go andcreate this thing from a customer drivenaction this is something you can doreally easy with this type of platformand it's where a lot of the power comesfromin doing so you will create a greaterskill base for the platformwhich will help Drive benefits that youwill be able to enjoy as we go forward with this platform because I believeSonic has a great future if we can getdown this if we can stay on the opensource path that we're trying to stay onso I'll leave you with this you know Ithink everybody should aspire toupstream and so what does that reallymean that means that when you go workwith a partner because of small minorityof people will do it themselves I meanthat's the reality of being in this partof being in in this type of environmentbut as you go and work with your partners to build the level ofintegration that you're looking forI believe you should insistthat they push it to Upstream when yougo buy a switch from a vendor from anodmbe that from one of the public facingodms that you see or one of the onesthat are hidden in the background thatyou never really know about likecelesticayou should force themyou should insist that they put in anupstream because if we don't unlock the community you know we won't haveanything different than we've ever hadbefore and how big is this communityit's hugeif you think about Cisco Systems and iOSat its peakis perhaps 400 Engineers working on iOSthree or four hundred Engineers not ahuge number compared to the number ofpeople that can be leveraged against thefuture of Sonicso we unlock accessibility we createchoicewe can simplify the compatibility Matrixwhich is something that I didn't talk too much about as I talked about theecosystem and the four differentcomponents associated with it get allthe features available and have greatuniformity that'll benefit us over timeso that perhaps again a slightlydifferent presentationum I won't do an advertising myself butI'll take a few questions about you knowwhat we worked on in the pastum you know I talked about Mercedes-Benza little bit there we use white boxswitches there as well again we didn'tuse Sonic all for the same reasonsoperational automation no questionsfantastic thanks, Enterprise or Upstream (How to Decide), YouTube, 01ka7mkm8nhb0hgt0yyew0cs1t.