Episode 31: Brent Toderash  🔗 **Source:** [Episode 31: Brent Toderash](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfs9E13Ozbc) > [!note]+ Document Notes > --- > tags: [fair-protocol, software-supply-chain, open-source-governance, package-distribution, ai-assisted-development, typo3] > author: Chris Reynolds > source: Community and Code > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfs9E13Ozbc > date created: 2026-08-01 09:05 > --- > > [!info] Generated analysis — not the author's words. Sections below are machine-written > > from the captured source. Only text inside `> [!quote]` blocks is verbatim from the author. > > Do not quote or attribute any other line to the named author. > # 🏷️ Title: Episode 31: Brent Toderash > ## 🧭 Table of Contents > - [📝 Summary](#-summary) > - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) > - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) > - [📚 References](#-references) > - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) > - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) > - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) > - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) > - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) > - [❓ Questions](#-questions) > - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) > - [💡 Implications](#-implications) > - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) > - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) > - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) > - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) > - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) > - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) > ### 🔗 References > - [Community and Code podcast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfs9E13Ozbc) — source episode > - [FAIR — Federated and Independent Repositories](https://fair.pm) — the protocol under discussion > - [toderash.net](https://toderash.net) — guest's own hub (spoken as "totrash.net" in auto-captions) > - [TYPO3 v14 release](https://typo3.org) — first non-WordPress CMS to ship FAIR in core > - [AspireCloud / AspirePress](https://aspirepress.org) — the API-server and mirror layer folded into FAIR > ## 📝 Summary > - **What happened.** Chris Reynolds interviews Brent Toderash — Winnipeg-based consultant, co-runner of a WordPress agency with his brother Scott, and a member of the FAIR project's technical steering committee. The conversation traces Toderash's path from 1980s punch cards through the late-'90s Linux/free-software scene into WordPress (via B2), and lands on FAIR's origin, architecture, and its adoption by TYPO3. > - **Why it matters.** The headline claim is that FAIR was never a WordPress project. It is a software-supply-chain protocol for digital goods; the WordPress-specific behavior lives in *protocol extensions*, not the core. TYPO3 v14 shipping FAIR support in core is the first external proof of that design claim. > - **Key stakeholders.** FAIR technical steering committee; AspirePress (founded by Sarah Savage, Oct 2024); TYPO3 core and security teams; unnamed web hosts who ran security audits; WordPress agencies carrying client liability; Ryan McHugh (drafted protocol v1); Andy Fragen and others who moved from AspirePress into FAIR. > - **Risks and tradeoffs.** Toderash frames his own entry as risk management — a consultant's professional-liability exposure when the recommended platform's distribution channel becomes uncertain. Counter-risks he does not fully address: federation multiplies the trusted-mirror surface, governance is young, and "everything's been done before" understates integration risk even when each component is proven. > - **Bottom line.** FAIR's defensible claim is architectural, not tribal: a from-scratch supply chain assembled out of individually proven parts, whose portability is now demonstrated rather than asserted. The AI thread running alongside it is a separate argument — that cheap regeneration dissolves sunk-cost attachment and may restore an older "build it and give it away" instinct. > ## 📖 Main Content > **The supply-chain thesis.** Toderash's core argument is that WordPress's distribution model is not what anyone would design today, and that supply chains generally are getting scrutiny "as they need" because they are vulnerable. FAIR's advantage, in his telling, is that its architecture is *for now* — not inherited, not iterated into "almost acceptable." He is careful to separate novelty of components from novelty of assembly: every piece has been done before and is therefore proven; the composition is what is new. That is a genuinely different and more modest claim than "we invented something." > **Why "it's not a WordPress thing" is testable.** The design placed all WordPress-specific behavior in extensions to the protocol rather than in its core. TYPO3 support arrives the same way — as protocol extensions built to the same shape. This converts a design assertion into an observable one: if the extension mechanism were cosmetic, a second CMS could not have been added without touching the core. Toderash's science-fiction-writers-sharing-EPUBs example is the reductio he keeps returning to — the protocol is about digital goods, not about a CMS. > **Federation vs. "here's a GitHub repo."** He is pointedly dismissive of the late-2024 wave of "here's how to host your own mirror" posts: technically correct, practically useless, because approximately nobody was going to do it. What drew him to AspirePress was that it proposed a *public* mirror that could then be federated — and that it was "a community, not a guy with a GitHub thing." AspireCloud reached beta before FAIR was announced, replicating enough of the WordPress API to serve packages and rewrite download URLs to a mirror. That six-month head start is why FAIR had a working server component at announcement. > **Phoning home.** FAIR Connect (formerly the FAIR plugin) stops the constant callbacks to .org. Toderash gives three stacked reasons — principle, performance, privacy — and treats them as jointly sufficient rather than ranking them. > **The AI argument, which is separate.** Two distinct claims get made. First, operationally: AI is *leveraged*, not *delegated to* — if you cannot describe the task you cannot write the prompt, and understanding architecture matters more than recalling function signatures. His client-estimate anecdote is the evidence: Claude first estimated higher than he did (pricing as if staffing developers), and re-scoping with AI doing the parts it does well yielded a 40% saving — which he explicitly flags as "a lot less than the hype would have you believe." Second, economically: cheap regeneration breaks the sunk-cost fallacy. He reaches for Brooks's "write one to throw away; you will anyhow" (attributing it to *The Cathedral and the Bazaar*, a misattribution — see Logical Validity) and argues the cost of abandoning and restarting has changed drastically. He extends this to technical debt and security: if attackers use AI to find vulnerabilities, defenders can use it to find and patch them. > **Money as a motivator.** A short but load-bearing aside: money is a fair short-term motivator and a poor long-term one. Whatever the salary, "three years in it doesn't matter anymore. It's if the job is drudgery, you'll still hate it." He connects this to the classic open-source instinct — scratch the itch, then give it away — and argues AI may restore that instinct precisely because software written that cheaply doesn't carry a defensible price. > **Uncertainties and contested claims.** The 40% figure is one proposal, self-reported, unaudited. "Gold standard for software supply chains" is aspiration, not benchmark. The claim that FAIR's components are "all proven" is true component-wise and unproven composition-wise — integration is where supply-chain systems usually fail. And the security reviews he cites are from hosts who declined to be named, so the reader cannot weigh them. > ## 🗒️ Notes > #### ⏱️ [00:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfs9E13Ozbc?t=19) Cold open — the setup > - Reynolds frames Toderash as someone who will insist "in the most Canadian way possible" that he isn't technical, then show you the architecture diagrams that disprove it. > - Establishes the through-line up front: FAIR's evolution, TYPO3 adoption, and that it "was never really about WordPress. It was about the software supply chain itself." > #### ⏱️ [02:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfs9E13Ozbc?t=122) No formal title, systems role > - Toderash has no formal designation as FAIR's project manager; he "steps in with that kind of thinking and though [music] [music] [music] Hey, welcome back to Community and Code. My name is Chris Reynolds and my guest today will tell you in the most Canadian way possible that he's not really that technical. But if you let him show you the complex architecture diagrams that he's built to illustrate the fair project that he sits on the technical steering committee for, you'll probably have a hard time actually believing him. Brent Toarash is a Winnipeg based developer consultant thinker of things who's been in the WordPress community since it was B2. I've gotten a chance to meet him through the federated and independent repositories or fair project and in person last year at Word Camp Canada in Ottawa. He co-runs a WordPress focused agency with his brother Scott and came up through the '90s Linux and free software scene long before he ever touched WordPress, which he says is exactly backwards of most of the community. He thinks money is a lousy motivator and that AI might actually bring back one of the oldest open- source instincts, building a thing and giving it away. We talk about fair's evolution and adoption by typo3 and how it was never really about WordPress. It was about the software supply chain itself. I'm thrilled to introduce you to Brent Toarash. Welcome to Community and Code, the podcast where we talk to the human beings behind the commits. Today I am with Brent Toarash, a longtime WordPress user, developer, thinker of things, and uh currently basically you're kind of project managing the fair project, I think is safe to say. Um >> y >> welcome to the show, Brent. Uh tell us about yourself. >> Uh oh, well, it's a big subject because I'm I'm not a young guy anymore. So, um, but yeah, I've I've been in the WordPress space for many years. Um, low profile for most of that time, but, um, you know, it more recently I've kind of stepped up to to work with Aspire Press and then with Fair uh, and kind of become associated there as well. So um yeah and I you know I don't have a formal designation or title as the project manager of fair but it's you know I just kind of step in with that kind of >> [clears throat] >> um you know think sort of thinking and thought process and uh rather than pure code uh and u is kind of help help out you know which which is cool because um open source is always uh you know bring the skills you have uh and if coding is not at the top of your list that's okay there's still things you can do um and >> I feel like you're being very humble because I've seen some of the the the architecture diagrams that you have drawn up and they are highly technical and things that require uh like me to squint my eyes a little bit to like follow the logic. So like there's a lot of thinking that goes in there and there's a lot of like uh pulling pieces together. Um and like fair as a as a project uh is not is is a complex beast let's say. >> Yes. Yeah. Um so I Yeah. Humble whatever. I I'm Canadian. We're generally selfdeprecating as a as a rule. So, uh, if I downplay myself, that's it's cultural. Um, so, yeah, I've created some very complicated diagrams and you know, as the saying goes, any fool can make something complicated, but the real So, that's what I do. I I make things complicated. But um but really um fair has a lot of moving pieces and a lot of you know very you know very intricate bits and most people don't look at it uh as a whole because it's very hard to do that. So um we kind of look at it in little pieces. So, uh, you've probably seen the diagram with everything on it, >> but in practice, you really look at that in just chunks because it's easier to conceptualize what each system does that way. >> Uh, and and the the big diagram is how the systems interrelate and talk to each other. So, yeah. Yeah. Uh, but that's that's kind of one of the the things that I've sort of done over the years is um it's what I do. I pull at threads and either I've discovered they're disconnected and it should be thrown away or you know I find out you know how it really does connect things and um and how things need to talk to each other if they if they aren't or what that sort of thing. So that's that's sort of the big picture or systems thinking that I I kind of really excites me. Um and this is one of the reasons um you know going back to open source this is one of the classic reasons why people do it at all is because you know offer someone an interesting problem and they'll show up. Mhm. >> Uh and uh and that was my introduction to open source is um the uh you know late 90s uh I started reading and um I started playing with Linux and stuff like that and uh uh you know learning more about the um the open source development model uh and about free software um and uh and that is a big question because um you typically think of um or it's changing thankfully but um but for a long time you thought about software as something that you know how can I make money from this it's you know I'm going to I'm going to write some code and then I need to cash in um but historically that's not that was wasn't the view it was um historically it was you know I'm writing code this is interesting maybe somebody else can use it I'll just share share it and they'll share stuff with me. And that's how um you know that's how computer science generally you know uh is standing on the shoulders of giants which is a whole scientific model of sharing because uh because everyone benefits. So, um, yeah, I forget where I was going, but >> well, let's I mean, that tangents, uh, into sort of where I wanted to go anyway, which is, uh, like sort of what brought you to what got you interested in tech to begin with? What sort of led you into the realm of of open source software? >> Um, let's see what what got me into tech. Um, in um, uh, high school for me was the early 80s. So, uh, when I got to high school, we had computer science courses. Signed up for all of them, all the computer science, all of the, um, uh, data processing, everything we could do. And found out I just really liked it. Um, and, uh, and it turned out I was I was reasonably good at it. So um at that time we were we were using punch cards um and feeding them into the card reader and it was a whole it was a whole production. Um so my first programs I ever wrote would have were like pencil and paper which you then copy onto the cards. So it was a um but I I just you know I just took to it. I really liked it. Um, and then, uh, the school had these, um, Commodore PET, which is looks like a a larger Commodore 64 that people would be familiar with, but uh, these started out with 32K of memory. Um, [laughter] so I used all of it. I I wrote a program one time where I I actually had to go and change the wording of some of the display sentences to make them shorter because I'd run out of memory [laughter] and I just had to squeeze it in. Um but that's that was my introduction to tech. Um but I uh I um I didn't follow it up. So, uh, after high school, I um, you know, I I just did other things. I didn't, uh, um, and regretted it later. I should have stuck with, uh, should have stuck with it, gone to university and >> learned to do it properly. But uh I uh I I was in the general insurance industry for about a dozen years and um had a professional designation uh as a insurance broker and analyzing risk and all that stuff which came in handy later. Um but as of uh it was spring of 2000 um I'd been you know I'd gotten online by then and was you know back into the computers and um [clears throat] uh was learning more about open source and all that stuff um as the as the internet was becoming popular. So uh spring of 2000 I went into business with my brother. So um uh we were partners and built a um an ISP wireless ISP. We did hosting um we did um uh software development. So uh he came out he came from a client server development in the in the 90s. They were doing a lot of uh some very large um software work. So um so I I he actually did go to uh he did get an education in uh doing in in writing software um and I just picked up the web stuff as it as I got into it. So um so we started doing that in u early 2000 uh and uh we survived Y2K. So we we >> [snorts and clears throat] >> uh and I a lot of people who listen to your podcast is this is before their time anyway. But [laughter] I don't know I I yeah where yeah at least they may not remember it maybe too young to remember. So uh but yeah that's uh and it's interesting to think that now it's like it's over 25 years um where open source has been maturing and and you know uh um and you know I would say winning the day because um you know what's the stat? It's like some it's a huge percentage of uh even commercial packages that have open- source somewhere embedded in them that are relying on it. Um and uh even um you know Microsoft who called Linux an existential threat is on the Linux bandwagon now. And um yeah uh it's it's been a wild ride. So >> yeah. No, I was actually going to say because um you know talking about Linux in the '9s uh and open source in the '90s that was really sort of like uh you know the enemy of the state sort of thing like uh you know Microsoft uh was huge uh Apple was slightly less so um actually considerably less so in the '90s. Um and uh yeah, it was it was very much like seen as as a threat to the whole operational model of of these these large tech companies to even consider giving something away for free. Um, >> yeah. >> What uh what what attracted you like what what about that model was was made it attractive to you to play with uh Linux as opposed to like the sort of dogma of the time from uh from Microsoft is saying like no don't do this this is very bad use our stuff instead. >> Yeah. Uh yeah that's a good question. Uh I I um I've always been one of these root for the underdog kind of guys. So um so that kind of helps. Uh so um you know I voting for not Microsoft is would have been a thing. Um and I like Bill Gates a lot more since he left Microsoft. >> Yeah. Um, but uh the um I I I kind of I objected to uh the way that Microsoft used their monopoly in um uh in Explorer um Internet Explorer and then in uh uh even the office suite like all of that stuff that embrace extend extinguish and fight everything with FUD. Um, so I I I just I I kind of reacted to that and wanted to find another way. Um, and I I I liked the um sort of mutual sharing and uh we don't have to be in this for the money. As long as everybody has enough to, you know, to get on with their life, that's, you know, we don't have to, you know, see who's got the biggest stack of coins. It's uh that's um that's never been the biggest motivator for me. Uh and I don't think it is uh you know pe people might criticize the the viewpoint, but I think I don't think money is a good long-term motivator. >> I think it's a it's a fair short-term motiv motivator. you know, um you'll show up and get paid all week, but uh whatever they offer you as a, you know, staggering salary, three years in it, it doesn't matter anymore. It's if the job is drudgery, you you'll still hate it, right? So, um so there's things that that money just doesn't overcome in in motivation. But um in uh in software in open source it's interesting problems. It's um scratching that personal itch uh is always the the classic uh metaphor um that you know I need I need to do this and so you write the thing and you do it and then you just give it away. And this is actually something that um I think AI can help us regain that mindset because when um when it becomes easy to write that kind of stuff, um you can write what you need as you need it and then give it away because uh somebody else could write it just as easily and it the software doesn't have a value. So there's a lot of um a lot of concern and rightly so about devaluation of software or of the the time that software developers put in um and I share that concern. But if there's a silver lining, it would be the recovery of this ideal that it's okay to share. So >> yeah, I just uh I just wrote a blog post today because I was thinking about the fact that um I don't miss not writing code. And that realization comes along with the realization that like it wasn't the it wasn't the writing code part that I liked uh as much as the building things part. And if Claude can write code faster and probably better than I can, which I think it can now, um, I am less concerned, I feel less loss by not writing the actual functions into my IDE as much as I would feel loss about not actually being able to build a thing that I that like Yeah. scratches my own itch or solves a problem. Yeah. >> Yeah. and and you've built some interesting things like very recently uh because I was looking at uh what invert is that what you call it >> and I thought I like this uh because um it it sort of crossed my path about 3 days after I had been spending time with my buddy Claude and we were we were chatting as we do uh designing a system where I because I thought I mean everybody's going to Astro Plus fill in the blank bank for, you know, I've moved my WordPress site from, you know, to Astro Plus something. >> Yeah. >> Um, and I thought, well, this is kind of fun. I um I could write uh I could write blog posts uh using vi uh on the command line and that you then talk about distraction free. There's nothing to click. You just type, right? Um, so, uh, if you can recover that, but also have the ability to sort of edit any way you want. Um, so I started thinking, well, okay, so I'm using Obsidian. Maybe I've got something in Obsidian that I just want to push to my website or I just want to quickly log in and, you know, do something and I'm, you know, I I just have a command line or maybe I'm in my browser and I want to do something in the browser. Um, what if I wanted to update my my blog using any one or all of those methods? Mhm. And so this is what I this is the conversation I was having with Claude is okay how do we build that uh and sort of stitching it together so that okay well we'll store everything as markdown and then even if you're even if you're using headless WordPress or how doesn't matter we're you know we have a a way of just kind of merging all the content together store it all in git and then build a site with it like and I and then you know invert came up and I wait a minute so I Uh, so I I pointed Claude at it and said, "Uh um, take a look at this and take a look at what we designed and tell me, you know, where are they the same? Where are they different?" And >> and he just went through it and said, "This is very, you know, you know, very much on the same page as as um what you were doing." So um so so you know we had a um we had a similar itch and and independently we could sit down and use Claude and uh yeah so I think that's um I think you're right. It's uh it's something you don't have to write all of the lines of code anymore. Um, but it's still important to understand the task and and this is what I've been telling people recently about AI is yes, it's great. AI is um AI is something you leverage. It's not something you just delegate to. >> Yeah. >> Because you you can't just say, "Oh, go do everything." You have to leverage it to do tasks. And if you don't understand the task, you can't create a prompt. So um in in building software if I can build the prompt and if I can understand the use case and understand the architecture and the approach I don't have to remember the wording of every individual function because um yeah so I don't have to look it up as to you know um so it saves a lot of time but um but I was um it was doing a a proposal for a client uh this week and uh um and I like okay well I haven't done this yet but uh let's try it. So gave it all I gave all the information to Claude and said you know create an estimate for this is what we want to build um create an estimate uh and it came back and here's uh and it estimated way higher than I did. So, uh, but that aside, uh, I said, "Okay, now, uh, because it's estimating as if you just put a couple of developers on the task." And, right, um, I said, "Now, what if we, um, what if we have you do all the parts that you know that you can be do better and more efficiently or whatever. I forget how I worded it, but you you know what I asked. It's uh all right, great, but what if we have you do a bunch of it? And the saving was was 40%. >> Mhm. >> Which is a lot less than the hype would have you believe. >> Sure. Sure. >> And and I think that's the uh that's the lesson is that you still have to understand what you're doing. You can't just, you know, feed in and uh Yeah. Yeah, it makes me think about like sort of a fundamental uh rule uh of software development or even just of using computers uh which is that the computer is only as good as you made it or like it only knows what you told it to do. It can't it it can't do things that you didn't tell it to do specifically. And as smart in quotations as as AI is, it still follows that same rule. And so like it think about like things like like OpenClaw and like the things that the the weird stuff and the weird problems that come about from OpenClaw agents doing their own stuff and sort of like managing their own soul files and whatever. like that largely comes down to the original instructions given to that agent being not clear or specific enough for it to that which then allows it to sort of go off the rails because you never told me not to do this and so I'm going to like you know develop a weird personality or like you know go off and uh start writing uh takeown articles about uh open source maintainers or I'm going to you know like >> yeah like all sorts of things because like it was just left so open-ended and and and that's like you said like you you use the tool. If you don't use the tool then I mean in those cases the tool ends up using you or it goes off like goes rogue and does like weird stuff. [snorts] >> Yeah, you've got to give it the guidelines. Uh and if you don't it's just going to wander aimlessly. Um, so and I was listen I was listening to a couple of podcasts on AI recently because I um I went last week I went and picked up a a refurbished PC which is a fresh Linux install and I just have to configure uh um OpenClaw on it and that's it. That's that's we're going to start playing with that. But um but so I've been listening to some of these podcasts and um uh I kind of losing my train of thought, but uh uh I forget where I was going. [laughter] That's why I need an AI assistant. But >> there you go. There you go. But yes, you have to you have to give it guidelines and you have to kind of tell it what's expected and tell it what to do and what not to do and uh and all of that. Um uh and this is sort of what I'm getting out of some of these uh this podcast is people are saying that or they're learning that in different ways um you know how to um how to configure it to get the most out of it. Um, and so that's that's kind of what I'm um what I'm about. And with with AI, um, I'm still getting the hang of it. Um, I uh, it took me a long time to actually pull out my credit card for Claude. Uh, because I was doing the the free and so it's like, okay, well, >> you we'll get 20 minutes of Claude every day or something. But, you know, then I got into more complex stuff and um pull out the credit card and just did the the very minimum like 30 bucks a month or whatever it is. Uh and um world of difference just being able to uh access different models and um you know spend a couple of hours coming up with something with with all of the back and forth that helps you dial in a design. Uh, and that's one thing that I found, uh, Claude is really good at. >> Yeah. >> Is, you know, designing the system. Um, so, uh, we're able to, you know, go back and forth and we we come up with a with a really good project plan at the end and then building it is a separate thing, but it's it becomes well defined. Uh, and uh, and turns out, who knew, it helps when you define your software ahead of time. >> Really? Yeah. [laughter] what um you know, nobody's been saying that since the 80s, 90s, whatever. Uh but but yeah, it it turns out that this is uh this is true for AI as much as it was for humans. And oh, that's what I was going to say about these uh uh podcasts is um they're talking about treating the AI agent like you would an employee. M >> um and it feels a little weird but um like right you know it sounds weird when you like when if you're just talking to it or whatever it they respond like a person so it it feels a little more natural but conceptually it seems weird that you would you would do that but um but with an employee if you don't give them good instructions they can't succeed in what they're doing >> right >> and it's exactly the same so If you suck at that, you're gonna suck at this. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, yeah. >> Um, you talked about uh going into business with your brother and your brother went to to uh to school and got a degree presumably in like uh software engineering or computer science. Uh, and you did not, and I know a lot of people have found their way into open source, myself included, uh, in a more choose your own adventure path, uh, and with no sort of formalized education. um talk about some of the things I guess that you noticed or or that were that were like both sort of the pros and cons I think of like like you're directly interfacing with somebody who has this computer science background and you don't but I think there's there's I think there's benefits on both sides right >> yeah um yeah so um and it was very different because I started building for the web so late 90s um uh my brother said um someday say all software is going to be delivered on the internet. So makes sense to get into the internet space. Um so it was pretty early on the curve. >> Yeah. >> Uh because we were still doing dialup um you know at that time but um um but it's true that's how we expect software to work now. It's not the exception anymore. So um I mean I still have a I still have desktop applications that I I like but uh you can do you can run your whole world in a browser now. So that is what's happened. But uh so he had a um he had a disciplined uh um view of building software uh and had worked on some very large projects um and it was all like I say it was client server it was uh object-oriented stuff. So when I started uh messing around with HTML it that's much much more basic. Um but uh but he looked at what I was I was building and said, "Well, you know, that's really good attention to detail." And so we were able to kind of uh work together on building website stuff and um sort of scoping um things that we would do for a client. uh that's a lot of sort of business analysis and all that traditional stuff that we used to that you know software projects used to involve. Um, and we're we're actually coming back around to that because uh when we when we talk about a website project with with um with a lot of our clients now, it's not a uh like a brochure wear kind of a thing that's just here's some static blurs about whatever, come see us, pick up the phone. Um it because people now expect to be able to interact with you on the website. They expect to to either buy something or book something or order something or you know if you're if you're looking if you're in the market for a new car, you expect to go to the website and build it piece by piece >> and get a price at the end. >> Uh and then you go to the dealer and you do all the things. But um you know at that point by the time you get to the dealer you probably know more about the vehicle than they do. So um or you know other products are the same because people are they're expecting that level of engagement. So um you know if you pay your water bill or your electric bill that's all online. What did I pay three months ago? >> It's there right? Um you know what did I buy from Amazon last year? I want to buy it again. That was good. So it's all there and that's the that's what people expect. So, we're doing those sorts of um um sort of analysis bits with clients now the way that you it used to be done when you're writing custom software for them to run their business. And we have clients that run their business online uh that have um some very specific needs. Um we have one client that we're doing um geospatial mapping uh using you know GIS mapping data and uh it's um it's an agricultural app so they um they tell farmers what to put on what fertilizer to put on the crop and in what part of the field and then it's all GPS so that when when the when the farmer drives his his equipment over a certain part of the field. It knows adjust and but we we have it set up. They can do all of this online in a in a portal because um so they can do it in the field, they can >> do it from home, they can because that's how we do software now. Um, so yeah, that's um, so that's kind of where uh, where we came to from, you know, me learning HTML and CSS and uh, and my brother Scott um, having had sort of the education in well, first you do the business analysis, then you write the thing, and you then you do the software. And so um, I I remember in the um, uh, must have been 2001ish, 2002 maybe. Uh we were we were writing an RFP response and it said describe your methodology. Um and this was everybody was using uh waterfall and all this stuff. Um and we didn't like it. Well, he didn't like it. I didn't I never tried to use it. So cuz I was just building websites, you know. Um but we um uh so we wrote our own methodology was four points. It's this is what you do. This is how you build software. Um and and it was um it was practical. It was um you could iterate on it. You could and it worked very well. Um and you could even adapt it to use with other frameworks. Um and then um later on um everybody started talking about agile >> and we look I looked at it and said wait a minute this is that. [laughter] So uh and within a few months of when the agile manifesto was literally created in a ski chalet or whatever uh we're writing this thing and it was all value based this is values you know this is how you approach the thing rather than these are the exact perfect steps to do it's no this is the approach these are the fundamental principles stick with this and you'll it'll work. Um so so he had the um uh uh my brother had the um the experience of working in large companies and red tape and all of that and I'd spent my whole career working with small business. So it was another thing that we were very different uh in our experience but it worked very well together because uh we were able to say okay what can how can we make uh enterprise um an enterprise approach work for small business and that's one of the one of the reasons we got into open source. We built a business that we couldn't have built without open source because uh well just the software licensing costs alone, but the ability to um uh you know just install things, run them, say no, that's not the right thing, you'll switch to a different one or whatever it was. Um uh and yeah, so we're able to build our business and and also be able to share those approaches with uh with clients. So um so we didn't need a uh custombuilt uh proprietary CMS. We had one. >> Yeah. >> Um and uh yeah. So um yeah. So back then I started using a a little known blogging software called B2. And I went to install it one day and went back and so this hasn't been updated for a while. and I was kind of reading and I like was in doing a new install and reading it. Oh, here's a couple of forks and so I installed all three of them and played around and yeah, that's how I got to that's how I got to WordPress. Um and and I got to B2 because open source was a requirement. uh it's no so I I came to WordPress from open source rather than learning open source from WordPress involvement um and I noticed a little bit of a difference in uh a lot of the the WordPress community who did not have an open- source background before coming to it which um and uh and Matt's been very vocal about you know GPL support and all that and that's been great and Uh it's been good to help help spread that word. Um so it's been a good introduction. Um I I I think people need to look farther than just WordPress to to to really understand open source. So that that's my appeal to the WordPress community is you know look look around more. Um I and yeah so I've been running a Linux desktop for over two decades because it's open source. Um and if you you know I have an Android phone I I may not I may not be totally at peace with the Google but at least it's open source. Um, so and that's that becomes sort of a a default choice is if it's available, pick that first unless there's a compelling reason, you know, for a a different solution. So, I know everybody loves the MacBooks, but but in its core, you know, it's, you know, it's got the uh the BSD. >> Yep. um you know uh roots. So >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Y >> yeah. I that actually is a is a the open source uh thing and and being able to take something and then try it out and then choose something else. Like I also see the overlap with that and the AI conversation and and some stuff that I've been reading uh lately has been, you know, to the extent of like well it it it like I've I've heard the question asked what is the what is how does open source exist in the world of AI and I think that is one of those ways where like it becomes easier to build the thing becomes easier to have your little pet project or side project thing and that also means that it's easier to take something that somebody else built and then tweak it like you were saying about invert uh to be the thing that works for you like I didn't build a connector yet for Obsidian but like you could and take the code that I wrote or that Claude wrote that I directed Claude to write and be like, "Hey, how do we how do we make a a connector for Obsidian for this thing so that I can publish from Obsidian and then that becomes part of the that can become part of the source code that could just be part of what you're using it for. Um, and I think that that's uh like I think there is a future. I think that is a really interesting future because like it it lowers the barrier to entry to building new and and interesting stuff. Yeah. So, uh, when I read The Cathedral and the Bizaar, um, the the book like late 90s, early 2000s, whatever it was, um, one of the rules is write one to throw away. You will anyhow. Uh, and this um it feels like it's going to be really expensive to get deep into a project and then abandon it and start over. >> But with AI, that equation has just changed like drastically. Um uh and in a sense you see this with um with M dash recently where you know you take 20 years of software development in WordPress and say well what if we did that today and two months later you know sure it's rough around the edges of course it's it's that new but you know this is what happens when you say okay let's take everything we've learned and do a redesign Um, and we've had to do that with some clients, um, where, um, where, you know, in some cases they've been using software for years, and we just say, "Okay, it's time to rewrite this thing because, uh, we don't want to support PHP 4.3 anymore, whatever, like, uh, you know, something something crazy." Um we um um in 2001 we we uh we bought a um a local agency. We we're after the uh the hosting clients because we were growing our hosting business and uh and we went and he said, "Well, I'll sell it to you, but you got to take the whole thing. You got to take the agency work as well." So, so we inherited like 96 or something 90ome u cold fusion sites >> and it was like um I don't want we don't want to deal with cold fusion anymore. Um, so it's the great that's that's almost a hundred projects we get to. Uh, and so we started working through those conversions and some of them were custom apps. Some of them were just very very simple websites, but some were custom apps that we said, "Okay, it's it's time. This is this is really technical debt that you're paying." Um, and we're going to rebuild it. So, um, we just got the last of them done um, uh, last summer. So, um, uh, so and it's live now and we're we're building on top of it. Um, but yeah, it's that makes the that makes it feel like, okay, you did this prototype and you've got all of this effort into it. With AI, you can actually you don't you don't have that same um um uh opportunity c no um um sunk cost fallacy. That's it. Um because you people commit to the wrong path because they're very invested in it by now. um and they don't see how how advantageous it could be to get off it, even if it means kind of going back to the beginning. Um it it's always faster to do something a second time. Um but AI can help us sort of break out of that sunk cost fallacy for uh for software. And um actually just thinking of this now, it can it can help you find and address technical debt in existing code bases. M >> um if the um hackers and crackers are are using AI to to find security vulnerabilities, we can do the same patch those. But also, you know, what could be more efficient? Um and um I was writing some stuff for fair recently. Um it was um it was shell scripts for some stuff that we're doing and um I uh I was able to after a certain number of iterations was able to say okay well we're going to run these three things in parallel rather than sequentially and we're able to optimize kind of how how the thing all works together. Um, and that's just that back and forth that you kind of um that's not how that's not the how you initially approach AI is you think you're just going to say I need this and it'll produce it. But that AI and that uh that the back and forth with the AI and the um the ability to look at what you've got and and figure where you're going and say, "Well, how could we do this better?" And keep iterating on it. you can do those iterations so much faster now. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, >> talk about how uh you did get into uh fair. Obviously, there's like it's been what like uh almost I think a year and a half now since it was sort of officially made into a project. Uh Aspire Press uh launched maybe a little bit earlier than uh Fair was announced as as a named thing. Um, how did what what what attracted to you about to that uh project and uh like obviously you're I can see that you're like it's the interesting problem solving stuff about this thing that is interesting to you. What what interesting problems did you uh see about the project that you wanted to help try to solve? >> Risk management. [snorts and laughter] So as of you know uh late September 2024 um we noticed a risk in the um supply chain for WordPress software. Um and I it was very concerning because we've uh we've got a lot of clients that we've done work for and a lot of them it's it's just a basic it's a just just a basic website or whatever. Even if it's e-commerce, it's not a huge, you know, Amazon's not banging down our door for work. It's they're small shops, right? Um but um so rebuilding those or you know if worst case if you if we had to not a big deal, but we'd built applications on it for clients. So, we're using WordPress as an application framework um for a number of these things that have some fairly complex uh and and in my mind I'm thinking well if if things go really south uh for um for WordPress and for this distribution and because the future at that point was really uncertain. Um the what what happens if a client comes back and says, "You gave me bad advice and I trusted you as a professional. Uh you're a professional consultant. You've got all the experience and you told me to do this thing and now I'm uh I'm subject to this kind of thing just happening." And um so I kind of it's the point I thought I had to get involved and do something. So, uh if you recall around that time there was a lot of uh a lot of um blog posts and uh you know social media posts you know here's here it is on GitHub. This is how you host your own version of the WordPress repository. And I thought well gee that's great but it doesn't help anybody because that's you know was everybody going to do that? No, that doesn't. Um, so I started looking around and and I found Aspire Press which um Sarah Savage had started like October 2024. So it was like right after um and uh and it was a vision for um distributed federated software repositories. So, um, I, you know, I hopped into the community there and I found it was a community, not a guy with a GitHub thing. It was a community of people and they were asking the right questions, which I I've always thought asking the right questions is important is more important than giving the right answers. >> Um, because you you know, if you're asking the right questions, you will get there. Um and and that's kind of what I found with this group and um uh so started working with them ended up um ended up managing the project and uh then as um as fair was forming uh like right around Christmas 2024 and January 25 uh Um, there were a few of us that were working with uh uh with Aspire Press. Um, you know, Andy Fraen and uh and others that are uh um that would be no well known in the WordPress community. Um kind of drifted into the fair conversation, but drifted. It's [laughter] was a little more it was not so much drifting. It was pretty direct. So um uh and and I got involved at that point as well with fair because Aspire Press had uh had a working piece that Fair was going to need. Uh and you know that that comes about a little bit later but um uh by the time Fair was forming um Aspire Cloud was already uh in beta >> and we were testing. So um so Aspire Cloud is the it's basically the server piece that is it's an API server that um that tells you okay if you need to update this uh piece of WordPress software this uh plugin here's where you get the uh the download and the download comes from a mirror which um was the other difference about Aspireress is rather than just saying here's the code go set up your own thing. It was we're going to make a public mirror that everybody can can access and then we're going to you know federate it so that there would be not just one mirror they can be all kinds of so um so that was that was the piece that we had in uh in beta. So we'd replicated enough of the WordPress API to um surf packages and rewrite the download URL um to to the mirror. So uh so as fair was coming together um and this was like spring 2025 so officially announced uh June I think it was 6th um >> and so it was just a few months um of writing the protocol and figuring out what the fair governance model would be and you know shipping the plugin. Uh so we had a um uh we had a spire press version of what became the fair plugin. Um but it was um uh it was a little more rudimentary. It didn't do all of the um all of the functions that the fair plugin or what we're now calling fair connect um uh what it does uh because it stops um all of the phoning home if you want. So it's it's not always pinging.org or for everything like browser uh yeah >> yeah all of that stuff that um uh on a principal level I don't want to do that for performance reasons but also privacy and like you know all all the reasons right um so uh anyway so far was able to you know ship that plugin uh and we announced we had already um arranged to do a um an announcement of Spire demo of Aspire Cloud um and at the uh at the event in Basil at the old control or um and uh and fair was ready for the same. So we we tag teamed um and um um through the summer then we um we brought all of the the Aspire Press pieces that were you know that were fair related uh we brought them all into fair. So um so in addition to Aspire cloud there was um Aspire Explorer which is the the the browser part that you just browse the repo on fair.pm PM um and that it's a WordPress plugin that adds those pages uh and then uses the API to get the listings of all the things from uh from Aspire Cloud. Uh and then most of those got renamed but the um uh Aspire Cloud um decided to keep the name just as a an homage to what Sarah had found it uh and started. So um so yeah so we had you know we had a good six-month head start on building a spire cloud so that it was ready when uh when fair uh officially announced. So yeah. >> Yeah. I think one of the things uh that I think is interesting about especially coming from sort of full circle from the conversation of Linux and open source software um that is maybe not discussed a lot in in connection with fair specifically because a lot of people just perceive fair to be a WordPress specific thing but what's interesting about fair is that it is really about package management and package distribution and in opensource broadly and this is sort of to your point about people inside the WordPress community looking outside of WordPress that's not a new concept like the concept of package management and distribution and even maybe federated distribution is not unique in open source like these there are models for this that that you could use and base and base the the underpinnings of fair on top of and build on top of again standing on the shoulders of giants. Yeah. >> Yeah. Um absolutely. Uh um I just you know thinking the um um it's it's a web 3 model uh but I'll come to that. So the uh um I talked about um the supply chain uh at Word Camp Canada in November and uh um well and the WordPress supply chain is very different from what you would design today um from the traditional or supply chains are getting a lot of attention right now as they need um because they're vulnerable And uh I I think that um fair actually has the potential to become the gold standard for software supply chains because it it's um it's its architecture is for now. It's not something that we've inherited. It's not something that we've tried to um um you know piece together and just sort of iterate on to make it almost acceptable. Um it's something that was designed from the ground up. Uh and the the interesting thing about it is that um and this is my pulling threads thing is when when you look at all of the pieces on their own, all of it has been done before. >> Yeah. >> Everything's been done before. So, it's all proven. Um, just nobody's put it together this way. So, uh, it's, you know, it's all the Lego bricks that you can imagine and they're all proven, but nobody's seen this thing before that we pieced together with it. Um, and I I think that's part of the real um um genius in it. So, uh, Ryan McHugh did a great job on the drafting the first version of the the fair protocol and, uh, um, and you know, and we've been extending it as, as needed because, uh, it was designed to, um, to just address basically digital goods. So, it's it's not a WordPress thing. And there's a lot of misconception here because oh, you know, if if Yoast isn't involved anymore, it's no longer WordPress, it's dead, it's whatever. Well, none of none of that's true. It's it's ongoing. And just a couple of weeks ago in Germany, we added typo3 support. So now the typo 3 as of the version 14 that's coming out next week, um it will support fair in in core. So you'll be able to uh do your software updates using fair rather than using their legacy um uh they call it tur typo3 extension repository um uh and they also have composer support um but you'll be able to uh use fair um so they saw the value in it um and they um you know I I worked with um some of their security people and uh you they say what about this and what about and and I'm going yeah that's that's the right question uh and we talk through how it um how it worked and I and I get a genuine feel of of moving from skepticism to enthusiastic support as he sort of basically vetted the model um uh which was also um actually vetted by uh some of the um some of the web hosts who didn't want to be named. But um but they did security reviews and audits on it and they gave us feedback and we made um thankfully nothing had to be huge but we made some changes that said okay well this could be better let's make it better. Um and that's what that's what we need to get into the future. Um but uh but yeah, fair can be um you know, I keep saying if you've got a um uh a group of science fiction writers that just want to share all of their e-pubs, you know what, fair will do that. >> It it'll do that. Um because it's at the protocol level, it's it's nothing to do with WordPress. It's about the supply chain. And then in fact the very original design of it, all of the WordPress specific pieces are extensions to the protocol. They're not baked into the core of it. Um and and it's designed that way so that um so now that we have typo 3, the typo 3 comes in as protocol extensions that are sort of designed exactly the same way. Um and it's a good model. Well, thank you very much, Brent, for coming on. Uh, thank you everyone for watching or listening to this in the future. Brent, before we go, is there if somebody wanted to find you on the internet, where would they find you? >> Um, totrash.net. It's it it'll link you to wherever I am on socials and all of that. So, >> awesome. Well, thanks again, uh, Brent, and, uh, again, thank you everyone and, uh, we'll see you on the internet. Yeah. [music] Yeah., Episode 31: Brent Toderash, YouTube, 01kywpaqnq7wfvtb4mqx9e02ra.