Episode 32: Bud Kraus  🔗 **Source:** [Episode 32: Bud Kraus](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dI3nce6G_c) > [!note]+ Document Notes > --- > tags: [community-and-code, wordpress-community, block-editor, podcasting, ai-and-creative-work, elementor] > author: Bud Kraus > source: Community & Code > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dI3nce6G_c > date created: 2026-09-22 > --- > > [!info] Generated analysis — not the author's words. Sections below are machine-written > > from the captured source. Only text inside `> [!quote]` blocks is verbatim from the author. > > Do not quote or attribute any other line to the named author. > # 🏷️ Title: Episode 32: Bud Kraus > ## 🧭 Table of Contents > - [📝 Summary](#-summary) > - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) > - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) > - [📚 References](#-references) > - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) > - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) > - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) > - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) > - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) > - [❓ Questions](#-questions) > - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) > - [💡 Implications](#-implications) > - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) > - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) > - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) > - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) > - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) > - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) > ### 🔗 References > - [Episode 32: Bud Kraus (YouTube)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dI3nce6G_c) > - [Seriously Bud podcast](https://seriouslybud.com) — URL as spoken; not visited > - [Joy of WP](https://joyofwp.com) — Bud's professional site, URL as spoken; not visited > ## 📝 Summary > - **What happened:** Chris Reynolds (host of Community & Code; says he works at Pantheon) interviews Bud Kraus (captions spell it "Krauss"), a WordPress educator and "content creative" in the community since 2009 per the intro, who now hosts the weekly Seriously Bud podcast (episode 110 due "this Friday"). The 50:46 conversation covers how the show started, Bud's route into tech and WordPress, a WordPress-vs-Drupal ownership theory, science fiction as a technology forecast, AI, and a sharp critique of the block editor's direction. > - **Why it matters:** two community veterans say out loud that the block editor has regressed on simple tasks and that Elementor's reach is a market signal core hasn't answered. Chris offers a governance explanation: WordPress runs as a project, not a product, so it has no product roadmap or customer advisory loop. > - **Key stakeholders:** WordPress core and Gutenberg contributors, site builders on block themes, page-builder vendors (Elementor), content writers and educators facing AI, podcast hosts in the WordPress community. > - **Risks and tradeoffs:** market-share and layoff figures for Elementor come from the speakers' memory, not sources; the critique rests on one navigation use case. Bud says he doesn't want to criticize the people working on the project while he criticizes the result. > - **Bottom line:** the episode's durable ideas are (1) hands-on control creates the sense that "WordPress is mine," and (2) a feature that was easy in classic themes and is hard in block themes is a regression, whatever else improved. > ## 📖 Main Content > - **Seriously Bud's origin.** Bud says the whole show (format, music, his daughter's intro) came to him in an Uber leaving WordCamp US 2023 in Washington, DC; only the name came later, from his designer. He had earlier mocked Bob Dunn for podcasting. A 19-day Amtrak loop around the US in 2017–18, talking to strangers, built the interviewing habit. The show avoids WordPress shop talk and asks about guests' lives. > - **Stories as the only barrier to speaking.** Chris argues the only difference between people who call themselves speakers and people who don't is believing their stories are worth telling. > - **Route into tech.** Original 1960s Star Trek. Bud calls himself a technology user more than a builder ("I don't need to know how the microwave works"). He taught HTML, CSS, Dreamweaver, WordPress, and some JavaScript in New York City classrooms and learned that a mix of entertainment and education keeps a room's attention. > - **Route into WordPress.** A client at the Grand Central Oyster Bar told him to learn it and lent a login. Building a child theme on the Thematic framework produced the "this is mine" moment; he then taught WordPress classes to long waitlists (he dates this 2011–13). He now mentors in the WP Credits program. Note: the transcript says the Oyster Bar lunch was in "2019," which conflicts with the 2009 start and 2011–13 classes; treat as a caption or speech error, unverified. > - **Ownership theory (Chris).** Drupal sites often have a configuration layer run by specialist site builders so editors never touch content types; WordPress admin is simple enough that the owner does the configuration, and doing it yourself creates ownership. Chris calls this a possible factor in WordPress's success, not a proven cause. > - **Sci-fi as forecast.** Next Generation-era tablets, the smartwatch, Get Smart. Bud predicts airports will become "teleports" and argues "impossible" is a claim that expires ("it was impossible to fly over the ocean"). Color TV adoption, per Bud, was marketed around NFL Sunday broadcasts (his claim; unverified here). > - **AI.** Bud says AI makes him "dumber" and "smarter" at once and prefers "reskilling" to "deskilling." He expects the next phase to be agentic: the assistant does the task instead of listing steps. He likes AI that's invisible inside a tool (he names Wispr Flow) and dislikes not knowing whether content is AI-made, especially content that influences decisions. He says he has no "AI radar" and doubts most people do. His career advice: bring your authentic self, because AI can't reproduce that. > - **Block editor critique.** Bud's test case: a navigation label that isn't a link, with a dropdown under it, on Twenty Twenty-Five. In classic themes you'd add a custom link with `#` and remove the URL; on the block theme he calls it "torture," even with AI help and JavaScript. His rule: if something was easy in the past and isn't now, that's a bad situation. He says WordPress "has lost its way," that the Gutenberg four-phase plan had no room to change course, and that the block editor-as-universal-language vision (other platforms adopting it) won't happen. > - **Elementor as signal.** Chris recalls Elementor's team telling him Elementor powers about 33% of WordPress sites; Bud notes it was 10% not long ago and that Elementor recently laid off a third of roughly 300 staff. Both figures are the speakers' recollections, not verified here. Chris: any other company would put its resources behind the dominant flavor, but WordPress is "a project but it's not really managed like a product." > - **Drupal and Gutenberg (Chris).** Chris says the Drupal community evaluated Gutenberg as its editor, came close, backed out, and built its own, which he thinks does what full-site editing should have. Unverified; which Drupal tool he means isn't named. > - **7.0 and real-time collaboration (Bud).** Bud says real-time collaboration was the headline for WordPress 7.0 and didn't ship. Attributed to Bud; not checked against release notes. > - **Uncertain proper nouns (auto-captions):** "Bington Weineberg," "Marcus Bernett," "Jackie Goldstein," "Angie" (Elementor AI product), "Thesis/Thematic" themes — spellings unverified. > ## 🗒️ Notes > #### ⏱️ [00:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dI3nce6G_c&t=18s) Cold open > - Chris Reynolds previews: Uber ride out of WordCamp US became a 100+ episode weekly podcast; Bud in the community since 2009; teleports; AI; ownership; block editor; Elementor at a third of the web. > #### ⏱️ [01:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dI3nce6G_c&t=90s) Who Bud is > - "Content creative": writes articles and educational material for WordPress businesses; sees that work shrinking with AI. > - Seriously Bud drops Fridays at 8 a.m. Eastern; conversations about guests' lives, not WordPress. > #### ⏱️ [04:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dI3nce6G_c&t=261s) Stories worth telling > - Chris: the only thing separating speakers from non-speakers is feeling your stories are worth telling. > - Bud: at 15, a friend predicted he'd love storytelling. Chris: people who start speaking "against type" often get hooked after [music] Hey, welcome back to Community and Code. My name is Chris Reynolds. You know that thing where you're in the back of an Uber, half checked out after a long conference, and a fully formed idea just smacks you upside the head? For my guest this week, that Uber ride out of a Word Camp US became a weekly podcast with over a hundred episodes. Bud Krauss has been in the WordPress community since 2009, teaching code in New York City classrooms and writing the educational stuff that a whole generation of us probably learned from. These days, he's hosting Seriously Bud, a show about everything in a WordPresser's life except WordPress. We got into a lot. How Star Trek is responsible for his love of technology, why he's convinced airports will one day be teleports. Whether AI is making him dumber, smarter, or both simultaneously, and a genuinely great riff on why WordPress people feel like they own WordPress in a way that doesn't quite happen anywhere else. There's also some real talk about where he thinks WordPress has lost its way with the block editor and the fact that Elementor is eating a third of the web. Join me on this hangout with Bud. Let's get into it. Welcome to Community and Code, the podcast where we talk to the human beings behind the commits. And today I am here with Bud Krauss who has been in the WordPress community for I don't know a really long time as an educator, as a podcaster, as just I don't know, everyone's grandpa I guess or something. Uh >> stop right [laughter] there. Come on. Take cut that out. Just just come on. >> Well, bud Why don't you tell everyone? >> Hold on. Hold [laughter] on. You know, every time I go to a word camp, you know what they say to me? They come up with how old are you? And I go like, "What? What? There's an age restriction here. There's an age limit >> there. It's like the height. It's the height. You need to be this tall to enter this ride." >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, whatever. As I once said to Matt Mullenwig, I said, "You know, uh, I I think I'm the oldest person in WordPress." And he said to me, "Well, how old are you?" And I told him, and he said, "Well, you're not the oldest, but you're getting there." [laughter] >> Well, I mean, we're all getting there. Like, uh, >> true. WordPress is legally able to drink at this point. >> Uh and and then some and I mean there's some of us who have been there from from the beginning or very close to the beginning. >> Uh I have noticed I'm not the only one getting older in WordPress. >> I have noticed. >> Yeah. >> Um but bud, why don't you tell uh anybody who's listening uh who might not already know you uh what it is that you do? >> Well, I like to say that I'm a uh content creative. that is I create WordPress content for WordPress businesses. So I get hired to >> write articles, educational material. Of course, that's kind of dwindling now with AI. That is, >> you know, I don't think there's a big future in it, unfortunately, because I love to write uh and write technical stuff, but like I said, like I don't know. Um, but I do spend more time these days with the podcast called Seriously Bud. >> And uh, it's where I You've been on it and I been on it >> recently and um, >> it's an unexpected conversation with someone in the WordPress community. So, every Friday at 8 a.m. Eastern Daylight Time, I drop an episode >> and it's not your typical WordPress, you know, podcast shop talk kind of thing. In fact, I stay away from all that as much as I can and just talk about your life. >> You know, who you are, who your partner might be, children, family, what you like to do, you know, everything that's not WordPress. Now, some people that's kind of hard to do and some people it's pretty easy to do. So, I I'm always looking for the unusual, interesting, super interesting stories. I say that because everybody does have a really good story as I think people know. It's just a matter of getting people giving them the opportunity to say it, which I think the podcast does. >> Yeah. I mean, as as somebody who has done lots of talks at at events and somebody who does lots of virtual events and and things like that and has also talked to other people who also have done talks uh at events like the the thing there there's not the thing that separates somebody from being a speaker uh in whatever definition of the word that you want to give it uh and somebody who does not identify as that is just feeling like the story that you do have or the stories that you have are worth telling like like it's just a feeling. It's that's that's the only difference, >> you know. That is true. And you know, I think it's sometimes I think it's kind of audacious of me in some ways to even have a podcast like I have. [snorts] Uh but I I do like stories. I like to tell stories. Uh I've always been that way. And I'm gonna I'm gonna give you an exclusive here, Chris. No one has ever heard this. Okay. So when I I think about this a lot when I was I don't know 15 or so I had a guy my age come up to me and say you know Krauss one day you're going to be really good at storytelling you're going to love stories and all that stuff and you know Bington Weineberg was 100% right. [laughter] So uh yeah uh you know I and I remember him saying that I just took note of it but I really didn't think much of it and turned out to be true. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, and and like I don't know. Uh my dad once upon a time was uh planning on going into like uh broadcasting like we wanted to be a DJ on the radio and that never actually panned out. But he did always he was always sort of like a communicator and ultimately like got into human resources which is also about communication. And so like I think that like you know for me I think that that definitely like played a role in how I view the world and and and maybe added to a little bit of comfort around talking in front of people. I was involved in theater and stuff like that like you know like but like none of that is a prerequisite. And I' I've talked to people on the podcast before that are like, you know, they felt like they wanted to start presenting things because it would benefit their career in whatever, you know, whatever context and and they did it and ended up like even though it was like against like against type, like they were doing it because they felt like they had to and they were doing it because it would be good for them, but they didn't really want to do it. But then once they did do it a couple times, they really got hooked on it. Um, and I think that that it really is just just that like getting over the hump. Well, you know, it turns out, you know, when [clears throat] I was a little kid and still to this day, uh, or no, not as much, I I always listen to talk radio. And now, this goes [clears throat] way back. So, I was very interested in human conversation from the beginning of time. And in fact, I sort of fall asleep to people every night listening to the radio of just people talking. Um, but you know, I I and then as I got older, I sort of wished I had um the opportunity to be a host on a talk show. I think I would have been good. >> Uh, and it Well, the podcast sort of serves that that need, you know. >> I was I was just going to say like talk I was I was about to say talk radio doesn't exist anymore, right? But like it does. That's what podcasts are. Like it's literally that's literally what podcasts are. And and I you know I don't know maybe 5 years ago like m I don't know that we were talking about podcasts as much they sort of kind of like had a wave and the wave was kind of declining but then like now it's like a huge deal again and there's it's like >> I I think there is this need to like feel connection to other humans and having voices in your ears is a really intimate way of of having that sort of connection. >> Oh absolutely. Uh, as for podcasts, it's, you know, it's, you know, they've been around for a long time, but it's only in the last, like you say, five, six, seven years that everybody and their mother now has a podcast because they realize there's a very low barrier to entry. It doesn't cost anything and everybody can do it. >> Not necessarily well, you know, but they can do it. >> I mean, the technology is getting easier. the technology that you can use to make a podcast is getting >> anything >> is getting so much easier and more prevalent to use and and cheaper and Yeah. Yeah, for sure. >> Um, >> when are you going to ask me this question about when I got into tech? >> Well, I I was getting to that, but I'm actually like I'm still >> sorry. >> I like I like this I like this this this path we're on because I'm I'm actually interested in when you uh decided uh to get into podcasting. So, it was not what I was expecting to do by far because go ask Bob Dunn. I used to ask tell him a thousand times, Bob, why would anybody do a podcast? This is the most ridiculous thing that you're doing. I mean, you know, this was I don't know, eight, nine years ago. You know, I was kidding him all the time. What are you doing this for? And then uh Word Camp US 2023, Washington DC, I was leaving and I was in an Uber and then all of a sudden like a bolt of lightning, I swear to God, I got hit by by this thing and I'll never forget it obviously and it's I said, you know, I wish I could just spend more time with Chris Reynolds, okay? Or anybody, you name it, Marcus Bernett, whatever the name. I said just because I love talking to the people and I don't really spend enough time with them because it's just rush rush. And at that moment I said, "Hey, I could do a podcast >> where I have a conversation with with people like that." And so everything, even the music, my daughter introducing me, the whole thing was born in one second. The only thing that wasn't born was the name. And that came from my designer. She came up, Jackie Goldstein. I'll give her a shout out. She's my designer. And she came up with the idea of seriously, but it was just whether it was going to be serious, how you were going to say it, you know, and we said as a question >> and that and then I think, you know, we decided right away everybody would say it during the show and the whole thing was just very easy to I never struggled with an idea of of what the show anything. it just came, you know, and then, you know, uh, one thing led to the next. Now, initially I thought like, well, I would just interview my friends, okay? Then I would interview people that I sort of know, okay? And then eventually I'd interview people that I didn't know at all. >> And I've done all that, you know, and >> people from around the world. It's really been uh uh I I it's it's an honor really to to do this. And I will say looking back now, I think another thing that kind of was the impetus was in 2017 18 I took a trip around the United States on Amtrak and I went all the way around. It took me 19 days. I did stop. I mean, I didn't can't be on a train for 19 days, you know. You have to take a shower, you know. [laughter] Uh so I would stop along the way, Chicago and Austin and whatever. But I did make a circle all the way around. And in that um experience, I had time to talk to people on the train. >> And I found myself asking like a million questions. Well, what was your mother like? You know, or do you like fried chicken or what? And so without knowing at the time that I was starting to develop the skills that would be the show, you know, uh I [clears throat] sort of was without knowing it. So it's kind of interesting. >> Yeah. Well, and you've been you've been running seriously bud for quite a while. You've got over a hundred episodes now. What are you at? >> No, 110 is going to be >> Yeah. >> Uh this Friday, so you know. Yeah. Um and there is no shortage of amazing people to interview. That's the one thing you can count on. The supply is there. The inventory, my friend, is there. >> We have lots and lots of people. >> Yeah. >> So, >> yeah. Well, I mean, I I always say that like, you know, having having this podcast is just an excuse to talk to people that are cool. >> That's that is >> that's pretty much the barrier. [laughter] >> It's what am I doing? What am I doing here? But, you know, the uh uh Yeah. And um it's uh whatever. Next question. [laughter] >> Well, okay. So, we we'll go back. uh where what did lead to your interest in tech in general? Like where did that come from? >> Yeah, it's easy. Star Trek and I'm talking the I so I'm talking the original 1960 version. Yes. >> You know, and uh you know with Bones and Doc and Spock and James T. Kirk and Y >> that is when I started to realize, you know, I like this science fiction stuff >> and uh yeah, and I never stopped liking it, you know. Um so that's when I started to realize it. But I, you know, I I don't look at myself really as a techie person per se, but you know, my friends and a lot of people say, "What are you talking about?" you know, um, and compared to them, I am, uh, but I I just think that I just I'm not really I like to use technology and I like to see it work. Too often it doesn't, but that's it. I don't really have, you know, it's like I I like to use the um the air dryer or the air, not aird dryer. What do they call it? The um Oh, it's let's say a microwave. Okay. But I don't need to know how the microwave works. I don't really care. >> Does that make any sense? >> Yeah, for sure. >> Yeah. I mean, that's not to say I'm never interested in code, but I'm just not interested as much anymore. Uh, we have AI, we have all these things now. You know, [snorts and laughter] >> you don't need to see how the sausage is made. Uh, I do sometimes take a look and have to see, but I'm not one of these guys that just that doesn't really that never really turned me on. However, uh, I taught uh, code forever in New York City and I did like it. Um, and it was also my first experience on a continual, you know, a basis to get up in front of people and talk. And what [clears throat] I learned, excuse me, cut that out. So what [laughter] I learned is that if you did it the right way, sort of like a mixture of entertainment and education, they will listen to you and you can talk about anything. It doesn't matter. You have their attention. And and my wife used to say, "Well, how was class today?" And I'd say, "Well, it was really good." And she knew when I said that it meant that they laughed at all the jokes because I didn't go by like whether they learned anything. Yeah. Okay. I just was like wanted to entertain them and just have fun. So, but I did I I didn't want, you know, obviously they had to learn. So, I was teaching them HTML and CSS and Dreamweaver and WordPress, little JavaScript in there, but you know, and it was fun. And then I created online courses and all that. So, back in the day when you had to know code, uh, it was fun. And then WordPress came along and destroyed all of that. That's, you know, it's not true obviously. [laughter] >> Yeah. Go ahead. I know what you're asking. How did I get to WordPress? >> Yeah. What is the thing that that steered you uh towards WordPress in the beginning? >> Another memorable moment in my life, 2019. I was having lunch at the Oyster Bar at Grand Central in New York City. Very nice, fancy kind of place. Business PE people go and stuff. So, I was there with a client friend. Uh and he said and he was always like six months to a year ahead of me you know in thinking about what's what's out there and a little older than me and he would say he was very successful financier and uh store owner and all and great guy and he said to me you know you ought to learn WordPress and I said oh come on you know this is I said I'm a rage against the machine kind of guy I don't want to learn that WordPress junk [laughter] that's and he said uh No, pay attention, bud. You really want to learn this here. I'll give you my username and password. Log into my site and take a look. And I did. And I, you know, I saw this thing called the Azy like drop-down menu or something at the I forget it was called. They had all kinds of like very primitive stuff compared to today, right? >> Uh, subscribe to for email. And I mean, it was just really primitive. But I didn't know at the time it wasn't primitive. And I started to figure out what are plugins, what are themes and then a certain period of time passed and I saw there was this theme called thesis. I think it was called thesis. Maybe it was called thematic. No, there was thesis, >> but there was a theme called thematic. Okay. >> Which taught you how to create a child theme, >> right? And once I put that together and figured out how that works and saw like, "Oh, wow. You can make a template. You could do this. You could I said, "Oh, this is mine." Because there comes a point for people that get hooked on this thing that WordPress is theirs in the sense that you could do whatever you want to do with this. And that's really cool, you know, and that's and then once I learned that, the first thing I thought like, "Oh, I could teach this." And I did. And at that time, you know, 2011, 12, 13, there were so many people that were they were lining up outside the door to learn WordPress. I mean, you know, the the market was ripe and people were from all over New York. They wanted to come and take the class and learn WordPress. So, that was a lot of fun. Now, you know, good luck. >> I mean, you know, it's funny. I just want to say real quick, I am now involved in the WP credits program >> where you know people from all over the world uh you know they they sign up to learn WordPress through their academic institution >> and then they get assigned a monitor a mentor like me to help them learn WordPress. So I'm still doing it but in a different way. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's that's a really cool thing. Um I I your comment about the discovery that WordPress is theirs struck me because I was thinking about the the difference between [snorts] um WordPress and Drupal because obviously I'm kind of in both worlds because >> my employer Pantheon does both things and I've been like trying to like you know I've been I've I've put my foot in into the Drupal world a little bit a couple times. gone to like a Drupal con and a Drupal camp and things like that. >> Um and and [snorts] I I feel like I feel like the that >> that sense of ownership is maybe not as present for people who work with Drupal because because there's so much more configuration necessary. So like in in Drupal there is this concept of um and I've said this a bunch of times but there's a whole class of of professionals in the Drupal ecosystem who are doing um essentially like like they're they're maintainers of the site so that just from a configuration level like they're they're the ones that like click the buttons and do the config and like go to all the admin screens and get everything set up so the people who use the site can just use the site, do the stuff, edit the content, whatever. They don't need to worry about like creating the content types or anything like that, right? And in WordPress, we don't really like there are people that kind of sort of do that that are just like the the web admin, >> but for the most part, that doesn't really exist. Not at the same scale. And the reason bew why is because the admin is not that difficult like anybody I mean it's it's only difficult when you add more stuff and you make it complicated. Right. Right. Right. Um, but like at its base, it's it's pretty easy to understand. And I I I think that like yeah, that that that thing there of of of ownership. I think that you wouldn't feel that level of ownership >> if you [snorts] weren't the ones that are clicking all the buttons and ticking all the boxes, right? >> I agree. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's just a really interesting like thing. like I hadn't articulated that that that is the the distinction or a distinction between WordPress and Drupal, but I think I I do think that maybe that that is a a factor. [snorts] Maybe it's one of the reasons why it has been so successful is that people feel an ownership a a very visceral connection to it and you know because as you say at its simplest it's pages and posts and media and bunch of links and navigation and and and of and then you you get this feeling of like mastery you know when I when I created that child theme and it worked I was like oh my lord I my head exploded because I just said oh I can just to everything. And then three years later, I figured out what a functions file was [laughter] for, but that's another story. But you know, uh uh yeah, remember boy, remember back in the old days when we used to bring in stylesheets with the add import statement and all that. Oh [clears throat] my goodness. >> Yeah. All right. Well, that's another story. This is a coding. Wait a minute. This is a coding show, right? We can talk. >> We can talk about code. Yeah. >> Yeah. All right. [laughter] Um, we talked about uh you mentioned that um you you your interest in technology come came from Star Trek. >> I feel like I and I I mean I was raised on the original Star Trek so like that that >> No, you were. >> Yes, I was. I mean reruns. I'm not from but like >> Okay. Yeah. You didn't see the originals, right? >> Yeah. Okay. >> Um >> Okay. That's legit. And uh and so like I there's just there's so much from that era of science fiction that is kind of no longer fiction, right? Like >> Well, well said. And I'll tell here's case in point. Go watch one of those NextGen episodes when it's a little closer to home and they've got iPads, they've got, you know, this, they've got that, you know, >> and it's like, oh my lord. Now, I think Steve Jobs noted that he was so influenced by those shows that he said, "I want one of those." So, I don't think that's Now, here's my thing. Okay, talking about technology. And here's my big thing is I want I won't live long enough, but those telet transporters, oh my lord, [laughter] I want one of those so bad. So, here's my future. I'll give you a little glimpse. I'm like Jules Vern. come back in a hundred years and see if I was right. There won't be any more airplanes, but there will be airports or teleports that [snorts] you go to where there used to be airports and you put yourself in one of those pods at the what was once an airport and you press in a bunch of buttons and you end up in like a minute later in Paris. >> I mean, and you'll end up in the de teleport in Paris. Now, I know everybody says it's impossible and you can't do it and but you know I I've heard all the I've asked AI how to build it and you know AI says you it can be done. Not yet but there's a path to doing this. Um but I mean I won't see it but boy do I wish I could see something like that because I think that's just beyond amazing to me. Magic, you know, >> I think it'll happen. I mean, what is it? Any uh any sufficiently advanced technology is equivalent to magic. I mean, that is >> Well, the only thing is now you'll have to make sure that there aren't any flies that get into teleport, >> right? Keep out. We've seen we've seen what happens when when a fly gets gets uh >> or [laughter] don't don't try this with a cat because that's you know that's the first version of the fly was was with Dandelo the cat and the cat just disappeared. [laughter] So but uh yeah so they'll try it with some but I could see can you imagine I mean shipping stuff with the teleporter >> right? Yeah. I mean, >> so maybe maybe we don't do people, maybe we just do objects, you know, but wow. >> I mean, like, and in so many ways, technology is influenced by commerce and capitalism and whatever. There's no if there's no other reason to invest in a technology that could >> transport people or objects across vast differences for like distances for less money or less time. uh then yes, commerce and shipping containers and things uh is is would would be a huge uh market for >> when I when I hear all those people tell me that it's impossible. I go, "Yeah, it's an impossible to fly over the ocean, too." I mean, it was impossible until it was done, >> right? >> So, don't tell me it's impossible. If you if the human brain can think of it, there's a there's possible we're probably going to get there. And obviously, you know, now I I would recommend though that we don't, you know, like it's like a, you know, it's like codeex, right? Uh compression, decompression, that kind of thing. So, we don't decompress somebody uh what was I going to say? You don't you can't do this and then send their little digital bits over the internet. That's not a good idea. [laughter] Yeah. Packet switching. Why not? Well, you see it sounds crazy, right? Can't packet switching be one of the core I concepts of this idea of teleporting? I would think it will be. >> Mhm. >> So, it's so cool. There's so many little things that you could start to see like I think this could be, you know, that you could see sort of like, you know, these technologies are all put together, right? You know, a new technology is born from old technology or technologies. I think it's really amazing. >> Are there things that that you use or take for granted now that you can link back in your mind to like science fiction that you sort of grew up in? Cuz like I like I was just thinking like, you know, I've got an Apple Watch, right? >> And talking into a watch that is smart, that can do stuff, that can like send messages across distances, that can like I give me I mean Siri is yelling at me now. Uh like you know like that was a thing like I I can I can literally see on in my head like memories of like seeing this on in Star Trek and other sort of like and like get get smart get smart get smart. >> Yes. Get smart. That's right. >> Um like like all these things where it was like like or like the Jetsons or things like you know like this is the wild imaginings of like some crazy far future but like no it's like stuff that we have in our hand. >> Yeah. Uh, you want me to name something? >> Yeah. What? What do you What do you What is that? What is What What things do do can do you think about when you think about like the the the sort of things that that are like normal now? >> A refrigerator. No, I'm just kidding. No, but you know, I say that in kidding, but my parents, they didn't have initially a refrigerator. They had a guy deliver an ice block. >> Yeah. And that's how they refrigerated, you know, eventually they had refrigerators. But um well, the first real kind of technology that I was exposed to as a little kid was color TV. >> Mhm. >> So I remember an era very vaguely where we just had black and white TV. >> And then they started they introduced color TV with the idea that men would want to buy this so they could watch football every Sunday in color. Do you know that's how color TV got took off? That was the gimmick that made it popular. >> I did not know that it was football. I'm not super enough old people. >> Yeah, that's true. [laughter] >> But [gasps] uh but it was true. They the whole machine behind color TV. I mean, the marketing and everything was geared to the NFL broadcasting Sunday games in color and guys had to have it in color and away we went. So I ve, you know, I remember a little bit of that. You know, uh NBC used to have a a peacock >> that the feathers moved, the animated feathers, and they would say, uh something like we're now broadcasting all of our stuff on in color in full living color. >> Uh so yeah, I remember all that stuff. Yeah. >> Yeah. And and now I know that you you you mentioned a couple times using AI and and I know that you you use that uh >> you mean it's a passing fad AI let's face it let's you know >> is it I mean tell me tell me like what what do you how are you and how do you see AI in the the world that we are working in and in how do you use it in in sort of your work in your your life? >> I'm going to give you the best answer I can give you is how do I see it? I can't tell you. I mean, I just don't know. Um, I I'm just not that smart to know. I should ask AI. [laughter] Uh, in many ways, I think it's making me dumber. Uh, I don't think there's any question about that, but it's also making me smarter. >> Uh, and they talk about deskkilling, and I like to think of it as reskilling, you know. I think I might have but anyway um so it's it's enabled me to do things that I could not possibly do uh until it was you know until it's here. Um but there's no way to know anybody you know can't know where all this is going. Um I do think sort of what you know what I can see and maybe I think the next phase in the next couple of years will be total agentic AI. So that instead of it telling you how to fix something, it will just do it. So it'll say, "Here are the instructions to do this. Click on this and click on that." You'll just go, "No, do it." >> Whatever it is, some app, something in a browser, something in your operating system. It'll just do it. Or you won't even have to ask it. It'll just do it on its own, which is, you know, maybe not. Who knows? But I could definitely see we're moving from a an era from informational to, you know, some kind of it does it by itself. It does it if you ask it to do, which will be really cool. >> I [clears throat] think uh I mean, you know, there's so many things now, you know, it's what I kind of see is like there's a lot of companies sticking AI into their products and services. And I literally mean sticking it in because you don't need it. like I need AI into whatever >> but some things are so like whisper flow okay is like you you're not really cognizant of the AI in it it's there [clears throat] >> and I think that's really cool I like sort of that uh invisible nature of it's like anything else I it's there and we're using it but I don't need to know >> you know so yeah it's >> it's a very very interesting, fast-paced, fastm moving time we're living in. And um my I think that the rate of change that we've experienced this particularly in the last 25 years uh is really one of the causes of our um so many disruptions in our society. People just can't adapt and adjust to these changes that fast and we're having problems. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that even since even talking about like like we're the the world has not fully recovered from >> fax machines. Well, that [laughter] but I was going to say the internet like I I think that like you know like like the internet is still pretty young especially if you're talking about like technology and like advancements and on a scale and now we're like >> like AI is just sort of like just a hyper hyper whatever you know it makes it even faster. It's it and I agree like I think that there's like it's super wild westy um and we don't know what we don't know. Um, >> and you know, I don't know about you, I'm sure this has probably happened to you, but that I've looked at something online and wasn't quite sure if it was or not AI. >> And it bothers me um that I don't know. It really does. I should know. >> Yeah. >> Maybe there should be a disclaimer. Maybe there should be I don't like it, you know. >> Uh especially if it's something that's, you know, influencing a decision. >> I need to know if this is real or not. Mhm. >> So, >> yeah. >> And maybe AI is what's real. >> Do you uh do you have do you feel like you have >> I'm not going anywhere. I just dropped something. >> Do you feel like you have an AIAR? Like do you feel like you if you can re see AI? Like if you're reading a blog post or something and it doesn't say that it's written by AI or written by with the assistance of AI, do you feel like you can like pick up on the cues uh in in the writing or in like videos or anything like that? I don't think so. I don't have like AI radar, you know, where I can tell. I do not think so. And I also think most people don't either. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Because it's just you, you know, it's I mean you if you take any article and you stick it in copy and paste it into chat GPT and say what percentage, what's the likelihood that this is written by AI? You'll almost always get the same result. You'll see the answer. Well, some of it was, you know, here are the tell I don't think AI knows if it's AI anymore. >> So, yeah, it's there's a lot of very serious challenges that it presents and serious opportunities, >> you know. >> Yeah, it's just really, you know, I don't know if human beings are ready to handle this stuff. I don't. >> Yeah. [clears throat] I mean, I I there's just a lot there's a lot there's a lot going on. Uh there's a lot that people there's a lot of disruption. There's a lot of anxiety uh about like what does it all mean? >> Um I feel I feel like we're feeling that in particular like in like our sort of web development sort of communities. Uh is it's a it's a it's a huge point of anxiety. Um because like if if if a robot can do my job faster than I can, what what does that where does that leave me? >> I don't know. I mean, you know, I've mentioned like, you know, writing and stuff is really diminishing. I I think you sort of need to figure out a way to, as always, reinvent yourself. >> Figure out how to use the technology in a way that >> it can't it can't and what you know, it can't do it for you. And what that really means, as far as I can tell, is bring your authentic self to whatever you do because AI can't do that for you. So, seriously, Bud has a very authentic brand. >> You know, me [laughter] that AI cannot yet reproduce. Uh, and I don't want it to. Um and that is um you know AI uh yes it can do conversations and all that but it can't do the kind kind of conversations that I do >> not I I don't I mean it probably can but I it can't do it the way I do it and um if it if if I have any value that's what I can do you know >> right >> because the show has developed a unique um style style brand. I'm aware of that. You know, I I know what it is and I knew when I started it, all you have to do is just be yourself and hopefully somebody will listen to it and if not, you know, but uh I couldn't be anybody else. So, who else was I going to be? >> So, yeah. So the I mean the idea to me is to uh is to bring some authenticity, some humanness to whatever it is that you're creating that AI cannot do, whatever that means. Do you get excited about uh or uh about what uh things are coming uh on the horizon or like the the development of of WordPress in particular like design? >> No, >> you don't get excited about that. >> No, I don't. Unfortunately, I used to Okay. >> Yeah. >> I'm very disappointed and I hate to say this with the direction that WordPress has gone in. I have tried so much to love full-sight editing and blocks. And don't get me wrong, I do like a lot of it. >> But man, there's a lot of stuff in it that is just really sucky. >> And um I'll give you a case in point. Okay, I'm doing something now, something very simple for the navigation. I want to create like a label. All right, so not a link, but just like a little piece of text that says something and then a drop down off of that. >> Good luck. I'm using uh 2025 and it has been torture. I have used AI. I've done this. I've done that. JavaScript. Blah blah blah. >> Come on now. You know, for a time in memorial when we had classic themes, this was the easiest thing. You create a custom link, you put a hashtag in, you take the hashtag out. I mean, and now I can't see. If you can do something from the past and you can't do it easily in the future like or that is a bad situation >> and um yeah so I see things in um the current version of WordPress that is uh I think we I think in many ways WordPress has lost its way and I don't like to say that you know because I know there are so many smart people that work on the project I don't so I don't like to I mean I you don't want me to and so it's easy to sit back and criticize I understand that but you know this is a project that I love and I just hate to see um you know hey is it any wonder that Elementor now accounts for a third of all websites WordPress sites I guess using Elementor >> yeah I don't know if they include that into their you know their self-hosted Elementor. I don't think they do. >> And having said that, Elementor just laid off a third of its 300 people staff, >> right? >> But the point is that's another But a third of all WordPress sites use Elementor. What does that tell you? >> Yeah. Yeah. No, I I was I was I was I I had uh I did a live stream with um with Miriam and >> Miriam who? know >> Miriam Schwab. Uh and uh I can't remember who >> who doesn't know Miriam Schwab. >> Yeah, I can't remember who who who their uh the name of their their the tech guy now. He's escaping my brain because I'm bad with names. But uh anyway, I had I did a live stream with them about Angie a couple months ago uh which is their AI thing. And they said something about like, "Yeah, Elementor powers uh 33% of all WordPress sites." And I'm like, >> "That can't be right." And she's like, "Yeah, two million sites. Just throw two million sites is like a number." You're like, "Wait, what? That's got you got to be kidding me. That is ins that is insane." And like >> especially when a short period of time ago it was 10%. >> Right. Yeah. Yeah. And and I I I think that you're right. I think that like obviously I mean >> they have an incredibly talented team and they've done and and one of the things that that Miriam said um when I had her on uh maybe it was on this show um was that like she felt like you know they they kind of caught lightning in a bottle um and they they just like rode they just rode a wave and it was just sort of like serendipitous. But I do think that it see says something about what people are are looking for and needing. If there is one particular product that is dominating that much to that extent like there's obviously some there's a there there right they're doing they've got to be doing something right and that is where like if it was any other product in in any other industry right and there's this many people using this one flavor of this product then the company that ran the product you know owned that would be like oh we're going to put all of our ducks in this basket all of our eggs in this basket because this is the one that people want and like focus on that but like because because they're a plugin because it's not core because of whatever because WordPress is a project but it's not really managed like a product um because it's it's open source anybody can contribute which means that there's no product roadmap there's no you know like like there's user testing but there's not like in the same sort of like feedback and and and consumer advisory boards and things like that you know like there's no there's no not as much opportunity for for direction. >> Well, take, you know, when when the Gutenberg project was first announced years ago now, you know, Matt said there'd be four stages. Okay. >> But nowhere was there any there was no flexibility to say, you know, stage three collaboration, no, it's not going to work. We're going to do something else. You know, there's this thing called AI. we're gonna focus on, you know, it was like we're gonna just go down this path no matter what. That's ridiculous. I mean, you and we see that it's ridiculous. But now going back to Elementor, uh, it's funny. I saw it when it first came out and I was at a I've said this I was at a meetup in New York City and somebody demonstrated it and we all looked at each other like, "Wow, what a game changer." Of course, you only had the classic editor then, you know, there was no black editor. And we just said, "Boy, does this fill a need? If they don't screw this up, it's going to be huge." And I told Miriam the story a million and she said, "It's amazing. I saw it when it was 200,000 downloads, you know, >> and um turned out, you know, to be unbelievable." And but they've also lost their way a little bit. I think that they have strayed into things that they probably should have stayed out of. But the other side of the coin is a third of all WordPress sites use it. >> And obviously it tells you there's something wrong with the full site with the with the block editor if um you know if that happened. I always thought it'd be in the early stages of the Gutenberg project guy always thought hey why don't they just buy Elementor and just be done with it or you know >> and who's to say there wasn't discussions about that you I don't know. >> Yeah. Um but um yeah, it's a major uh it's just it's uh well, you look at the the block editor and you look at um Elementor and there's still such a gap between the two of them, >> maybe bigger than ever, you know, >> and and I don't know how many folks in the WordPress uh community know this uh little factoid, but for a while, for a a decent amount of time, uh the Drupal association was looking at uh and evaluating Gutenberg to be to be the editor of choice in Drupal and they decided against it and instead what they built I've seen demos it looks like all the things that fullsight editing and Gutenberg should have been but is not like >> yeah they they like they they went they were like okay we're going to and but it came really really close and I know Matt was really pushing for it and whatever um they came really close to adopting uh Gutenberg and and they they backed out and they said, "So, so the end result is instead of using this thing that exists that is built into WordPress and is I guess being built into Tumblr and whatever, you know, as as a like a deacto standard, they decided, no, we're going to write all of that ourselves the way that we want to do it." And and from what I have seen, >> they've done a better job of of doing that thing. >> How about that? You know because the initial vision was that know the block editor would sort of become a language >> that all these others many many you know >> non like you know let's say constant contact would use it or whatever any kind of publishing platform would use it. >> Y >> and there's nowhere near it's that's not going to happen. >> Yeah. >> That is just not going to happen. >> Uh so it's been a um a disappointment. Let's just say that. Uh, and I just, uh, as much as I got do I pull for it and want it to be better, I just, you know, I think it's also a project that's just really stuck. >> It's sort of rudderless right now. >> Um, I mean, you know, in the when 70 came out, the big thing was going to be real-time collaboration >> and they couldn't ship it, you know. >> Uh, it tells you, you know, that everything's not so good. >> Yeah. >> So, what else can we talk about? I'm sick of this stuff. >> Well, I was going to say like we're getting close to the end. I was going to say uh yeah, I mean it it's it's uh we've we've blown through our time and and so I was going to give it uh give you an opportunity to to tell anyone who might be listening uh or watching this in the future uh where can they find you on the internet? >> No, no, no. Here, if you're doing this, if if let's do this like seriously Bud style, you would say, okay, >> so who do you >> take over my podcast now? >> Yes. So, who do you recommend I have as a future guest on? >> Who do you recommend that I have as a future guest, bud? >> On code and community. >> On community and code. >> Community and code. Uh, well, you know, they always, you know, my guest Well, who have you had? [laughter] Okay. Uh, who do you want? Is there anybody you want? >> Uh, I've got I've actually got a I've got actually got a list. There's a bunch of people that I that I haven't reached out to uh yet, but I I do have a list that that that is growing. >> Yeah, I know. I have a list, too. I get it. Uh All right. So, what was the the real last question that you >> The real last question was uh where can people find you on the internet if they're looking? >> Uh yeah, if you're looking, Bud, well, you I have two sites. One is seriously bud.com. What a surprise. >> That's seriously.com. And uh I have all of my episodes archived there so you can hear all including Chris's which is a good episode. >> Could not great. But >> I I think so >> could not great. And uh yeah uh and you could also sign up for my newsletter there and you could even apply to be a a guest. So >> uh I like the it's a it's a it's a fun kind of website and I'm making it funner. And then the other site is joyofwp.com >> and [clears throat] that's my serious site in that that's where I uh talk about the work that I do as a as a content creative um what I've done. There's a whole list of all this kind of stuff there and if you're interested in hiring me anyway. Uh oh yes. So, but at joyofyofwp.com is probably the best way to reach me or on Slack. Joyofwp is that I say Slack, I mean Twitter. Joy ofWP and Slack. I'm in the Make WordPress channel. I'm in the post status. You know, I'm easy to find. I somehow I get found Facebook. Don't forget Facebook. >> Wow. People still use FA No, I know people still use Facebook. My my generation is the only one that still uses Facebook. >> What do you use? Instagram, Tik Tok. >> Yes, I definitely definitely use Instagram. Yeah, >> which is which which makes me old because Yeah, that's not that's not >> true. Yeah, >> you're such a >> There's a partic There's a particular generation that there's there's the generation uses Facebook and then the next one uh be behind that uses Instagram and the next one behind that is like Tik Tok and >> we are so marked by all this, you know, like the words we use, the things we like, you know, I I started realizing, God, the stuff I talk about, nobody knows what the hell I'm talking about. You know, [laughter] I go to word camp and I I mean, I have to explain what Star Trek was. We never have to explain what Star Trek is to. Yeah. >> Yeah. Because you [laughter] saw you saw the reruns. You stinker you. >> Okay. >> Well, thanks again uh Bud for coming on. Uh thank you everyone who might be uh watching and uh yeah, we'll see you all on the internet. >> [music], Episode 32: Bud Kraus, Bud Kraus, 01m34hnzdbrs06hafcb9yw0b88.