Finding Purpose in Agency Work ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/jWd_RNFEM0s/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [Finding Purpose in Agency Work](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWd_RNFEM0s) Folks, welcome to another Agency Action show. I'm Kurt Von Ahnnen. My co-host is with me today, Toby Crine. And I think we got something really awesome to talk about today. Hey Toby, let's just get to it, man. Tell me how your last month and a half has been. It's not good, Kurt. It's It's been a challenge personally on my, you know, we'll just say in my house. It's been a challenge at work. We've been going Well, let's just say over the last month and a half we've really shined a mirror on ourselves and noticed some things we weren't doing well. And it's really been emotionally draining for me to realize that, but also like take the next steps to fix that. And also to be really frank with our clients and that we haven't been doing as good a job as we wanted to despite our best efforts. Like that's been the probably the most part of why it's so emotionally draining is like my whole heart and body is in this as is my team's to the extent that they're that's reasonable. And we've all been really working hard and to realize that there was there's such a huge room for improvement where we thought we were doing really well in certain aspects. It's been really It's just been really emotional and just It's been tough. It's been a tough month and a half. And it's caused me to kind of rethink like why am I even doing this? Because there is an easier path even within the Mighty Mo agency. The easy the easiest, simplest path is like it's just me. I don't need I don't need a team. I don't need a, you know, I'll just do it myself. We'll scale way back. I can control every single aspect if it's just me. I'll know exactly what I'm delivering and I'll know the pulse of everything. I'll only have three clients rather than 20, you know, that sort of thing. So that's like the simple thing. But then when I thought about like why am I doing this? And that causes me to like get back in it and be like, "Okay, we're on a path to something. What are we heading What are we aiming towards? And how are are doing on that path?" And in some ways I think like despite all this inner turmoil that I'm experiencing and this emotional really really tough emotional month and a half and also physically draining because I've been investing so much more time than normal into the business to figure stuff out and >> Yeah. Yeah. having so many more meetings with my team to like just be like what's going on? Tell me about this email exchange. Tell me about where this project is, what happened today I cuz I really want to understand what's going on so we can like diagnose problems and then get to the next place but it's just been a ton of time so I've had to like cut back on personal things for the last month and a half and really like invest more of my energy into business which sucks. That's not my goal. Like my goal is not to spend all my time in my business but that's what I've been doing. But part of this question is like despite all that like maybe I'm actually kicking kicking ass right now. Like >> [snorts] >> like maybe this is just a growth pain to the next place and >> Yeah. Yeah. So I wanted to jump in on you but I didn't want to be rude and you were on a riff so I was going to let you keep going. First off kudos to you for being brave and honest and speaking and and talking about the subject on the show, you know, where supposedly five or six people are going to hear this. You know, I I went through my thing at the beginning of the year. I went for months without making a new sale and on top of that got the flu and was like knocked out for like six weeks. I just I just felt like crud and same thing like at the end of February's rolling around, March is coming through and then I'm still feeling like crap. We're we're revenues not pouring in, right? And I'm thinking to myself, hey, you know, they're opening up a new YMCA here in the city. Maybe I should be the director of enrollment for that. That maybe I should apply for that. Maybe maybe there's a position for me in town. And but then reality hits and I remember my corporate employment and I remember like those moments where you're like this isn't going the way I want it to but you have no power to change it. But if you own your own thing, you do have the power to change it. And so, do I want to give up being, you know, the king of all I survey, uh even though in in moments it seems I'm not surveying much? No. No, I don't. Like, I keep getting driven back to I have certain freedoms and I have certain abilities and certain things. And I think it's really important. Like, I I gosh, the whole the whole pandemic, Toby, before you knew me, I would get online and I would say things like, we got to find the opportunity within the obstacles and you know, we have to associate in order to have a harvest. And now, April came, pretty good harvest month for us, not going to lie. You know, the harvest was plentiful in April. May is looking pretty strong. And I just closed a public speaking gig that came to me. I didn't even have to apply for it. It came to me because it had to do with things I was doing last year that brought that work to me now, right? And so, I think so many times we allow our emotions or our feelings in the moment dictate what success is when it's it the facts that, you know, the key performance indicators are are completely, you know, devoid of our feelings. It it's it we you Dude, you could look at your stuff and go, this is really bad. Or you could take a look at stuff and go, holy crap, we're kicking ass. And it's it's hard to understand un- unless you're objective enough to look at it from the outside in what's really happening. Yeah, and I think this can be said for anybody. The perspective probably matters more than Yeah. Like, people there's probably people in my worst day in the last month and a half would be like, I'm really working hard to get to a point where I have that problem. I remember I was working at uh ABC Network News. This would have been the year 2001. I was in LA at the news desk. Um this is where Peter Jennings This is For for all you old-timers, you'll remember Peter Jennings. That's where he worked when he was in LA. I was just an hourly employee at the desk answering the phones. I talked to Tony the Tiger one time. It was great. But Tony the Tiger called. He goes, you know, I'm just like ABC Network News and he's like, "This is Tony the Tiger, if you believe it." And I thought cuz we got prank calls sometimes. I was like, "There's no way." But I just happened to overhear someone in down the hall talking about Tony the Tiger. I'm like, "Wait, maybe we're doing a story about Tony the Tiger." So, I'm like, "Are we doing a story about Tony the Tiger?" Someone's like, "Yeah." So, I'm like, "Okay, Tony, I'll patch you through." So, I'm overhearing. So, I'm I have like at this time, I want more than anything I wanted to go to a dentist cuz I just had dentist dentistry issues that I wanted to cure, but I had no money. I'm making um 13 bucks an hour, which was actually a great wage for me in LA, but not enough to pay for a dentist. Yeah. I I shared a house I shared a a two-bedroom house with eight people. That sounds about LA-ish. There was a guy living in the bar in the back. Like picture a 4-ft by 2-ft like bar that we moved the you know, this is like a backyard. Anyway, I overhear the lady next to me at the at the ABC News desk and she's like complaining about the coverage she has for her dentist things, you know, like ABC News only provides 80% copay or something. I'm just like, you're like, "I wish I had dentist I wish I had that money." So, I think like part of it like it's good to take stock as best we can, but it's it I admit that it's really hard for me anyway to figure out like, "How am I actually doing? Like, where am I even going?" Sometimes I don't even remember where I'm going or know why I'm going cuz like work is just one piece of the many shaded puzzle of my life. Yeah. Yeah. But there's looking at our notes, there's like a whole other category or reason for why there might feel like some disconnection, you know, for you from what you've described just now, right? You you have project managers. So, there's a lot of stuff that happens within the Mighty Mo that you're not even aware of. Like you you kind of find out on the back end, I imagine, right? >> Yeah. And usually it's awesome stuff. Like I shouldn't say usually, sometimes it's awesome stuff, sometimes they're alerting me to issues that need to be resolved. I would say like it took me 20-something years before I hired my first project manager, and it's an interesting role cuz it's just overhead. Like they're not delivering anything from a Yeah. in the sense that like a developer, they're doing the work, and I phrased that wrong because they're critical to what we do. Our project managers are critical. And a great project manager changes businesses, you know, like a great project manager is felt throughout the organization when we're my size. There are days where um our project manager, just in passing, so I have a stand up twice a week with one of them, and and they'll be like, um so I sent an invoice for this and this and this. I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about, but I understand the word you sent an invoice. Great. I'm hearing revenue. Exactly. I don't know how much. I've just like that sounds wonderful. So there's lots of good news there, but also they So when I'm we have When I'm not feeling up to a client call, it's so nice to know that my project managers are there to help. Like and I'm trying more and more to take myself out of our delivery process entirely. And the more I do that, the more I think like this is where I want This is where I need to go. That's my objective is to be more, you know, just kind of steering the business rather than like doing the work. And you know, there there have been times where I'm really not up for a conversation, and our project I'll be on a call with our project manager, and I'm just like, you take it. I'm going to be on the call. I'm just going to be quiet. I'm angry. I'm like I'm the call, and whether it's the client's fault or something that happened at home, I'm angry, and I'm just sitting there smiling. The project manager's running the meeting, and hopefully I don't have to say anything, but oh, thank you, it's been great. Bye. Um and in those times, it's it's unbelievably, like I'm so grateful to everybody who makes that possible on our team. I just got to ask cuz people are probably wondering, in your mind, can you define or describe like what a project manager actually is? Like I consider myself the project manager of Mañana No Mas. And so I bring in the jobs, I split things up, I give I delegate them out to team members. I'm a I'm a producing team member as well, so so some of it gets delegated to myself, which I guess makes me not really the project manager. But in your case, you you have people that that run the thing for you. Yeah. In in our case, we don't really have account managers, although technically I'm the account manager if we're going to split it up that way. Um although my sales guy kind of plays the role of account manager, and so Yeah. I think like there there's like seats in this project manager has a seat. It could be in a if you're depending on what you're doing, your project manager could be like 50% of the time in the project manager seat, 20% in account manager, and you know, 20% in billing or something. Like you can So I just feel like but in my case, I have a full-time project manager. Um and actually I have one full-time, one part-time, but they're the in that seat, their job is to simply um make sure the clients know exactly what's happening, when it's going to be happening, get ahead of issues as much as I can, kind of understand the pipeline, and keep the projects on track. Really that's their job is to make sure that communication is clear, that our developers are getting what they need, that our designers get what they need, but a lot of that our developers and designers are now just talking directly to the clients. And so like the project manager's job is just be like, client, do you have everything you need? No? Okay, who do you need to talk to? Let me facilitate that. Yeah. I'm always asking my project managers, are we on track or off track? Like what's the risk level today for this project? And you know, for specific project it might the risk might be high today and low tomorrow. It just kind of depends where we're at and what's happening. I'm curious about something else. And I'm thinking about my own personal experiences. So, years ago, years ago, I had a client, brought her on. She had was formerly an L&D manager, right? So, learning and development manager. So, she had some pretty high expectations in the e-learning space. And I knew I could fulfill those those really, really well through my young and ambitious mind. But, she was also very specific about image design, flash, pizzazz, all these things. And some of the content, the way she provided it, didn't provide all that pizzazz and jazz, right? But, but she still expected it. And she expected things like pixel-perfect spacing for between the heading and the content, between And when I was first building it out, I was concerned with function, right? I just wanted the I just wanted to slam the content in and we can adjust it as we need as we go for styling purposes, but I wanted to get it done. And in that process, she had become concerned with my abilities. Let's just say that. She was like, "You're obviously not artistic like I am, blah, blah, blah, right?" And it's so, there's going to be a huge disconnect here if this product doesn't match my expectations. So, we're having that that talk. She's passionate, I'm passionate, and I find that passionate people can can swing the pendulum really well between like hyper-critical and like ambassador, right? Now, it took a little bit of work and I and I had another person on my team that that worked with them for a little bit that's more design-oriented. And so, then what this customer got to see was, "Oh my god, Kurt really is highly functional and highly good at this e-learning portion, but he's also got someone on the team on the design side." She ended up going from highly critical to one of our biggest advocates. I mean, referred work to us in the whole thing. Is that something that you see be the product manager is able to kind of do for you because if you're running the whole So I'm picturing you with your team, Toby, right? So So you've got these positions, these seats you call them. Does that help with your communication and clients to to like they're able to like restore confidence or or or bring the level up whereas quite honestly just you being the only person could cause friction. Yeah, cuz there's there's something to be said for somebody who comes to work in the morning, they don't own the company, they don't carry the baggage that I carry every morning, they don't carry the emotional stuff, the 20 years, you know, and they just show up there like, I got a job to do. And my job is to get this client from point A to point B today. And a lot of times like I've been just so grateful to have that team in place because like I said, I go to meetings sometimes and I'm just angry. Maybe I'm angry at what the client's saying, maybe I'm angry at something my wife said to me, I don't know. Maybe I'm just angry cuz I woke up on the wrong side of the bed. But like for somebody whose job it is is to like present confidence and like yeah, they can help immensely. And I I'm picturing your designer in this case and you know, maybe they had slightly better design skills than you, but I'm guessing, you know, there was probably some compatibility between your skills and their skills, but there's something to be said for bringing in someone to say, "Hey client, I have an expert in this that's going to help you." And just that like shift, even if the person isn't that much better, can change the dynamic. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um I have a term that I use and some people get insulted, but but I call things like crystals and pyramids. I'm a very Naturally, I'm a very black and white kind of idealistic person. And then crystals and pyramids to me is is people that are like more artistic, more abstract, more whatever. And she was behaving in a very crystals and pyramids way to me and I thought, "My designer is a little more crystals and pyramids. Let's put these two together and see if they can't agree on a on a on a you know, design template moving forward. And then if that's established and she's happy with the design, I can go back to just the function and content, plugging the stuff in. And And that worked really well. It worked really really well. Like I said, it it it was it was the pendulum swing that went from she's going to be hypercritical and think I don't have what she needs to meet her expectations to oh my god, they knocked it out of the park, and I got to work with an extra person, and it was wonderful. >> Yeah, and here's another example at the Mighty Mo. I'm not a huge intuitively, I'm not a huge fan of super formal processes like we must complete A before B, we must complete B before C. It's just not where I live in life. What I've realized, my project managers, it's been really helpful to have them cuz they've created processes that are very formal. Like we need to sign off on this, we need to sign off on that before we do this. And it's not a great fit for me personally, but I see the value to the business. And so, having someone else see that and appreciate it as part of the thing that makes their job be better, it's been I've been super grateful for that, too. Like so, this is like as we talk about should I hire a project manager, they bring they can do the things that you know you need that you don't want to do cuz you're you, you know, or me. Well, you nailed one. You nailed one just what you described right there that, believe it or not, I think is part of why we're able to create the revenue we create up on Yalla Na Mas. Like yourself, I am someone that's like, "Hey, I'm already in here. I'm I can already I You know what? I can import their contacts list into the CRM right now, right? Or I'm here. I can build this this first automation that deals with this course enrollment." But, project management says we have phase one, phase two, phase three, phase four, right? And those phases are based on revenue exchanging hands. So, if I cuz I cuz I'm not like process oriented like like you what you just said, right? If I go, "Hey, we're going to install the CRM in phase one, but we're going to populate the CRM in phase two." If I start populating the CRM while I'm still working on phase one and phase two requires another $8,000 from the client. They're like, why am I paying you? You're already doing it. Like it just devalues it devalues the structure you sold on. And so, yeah, my my gut when I'm men it's so hard cuz when I'm working I hit I have a ups and flows like everyone else that's creative, right? And so, maybe I sit at the computer for 2 hours and do nothing and then all of a sudden I work, you know, at midnight till 2:00 in the morning and knock out 10 hours worth of work. Right? And I just and I start going. I got to be careful to not break out of the phases and reduce the value of what we've sold. So then So then I got to get back to, you know, contact the customer and say, "Great news. We've completed phase one. You know, we can start phase two early cuz since we're ahead of schedule, if you want to start phase two early, we can. Just let me know and I'll pop you an invoice for that $8,000. We can get started right away." Right? And that's the way that we keep the revenue forcing through the door. But if we don't have a project manager and we don't hold to our process, we lose the ability to create the revenue on the timeline we have the possibility to. Yeah. That was a lot to spit out. No, you're totally right. In addition to you know, uh the the process helping improve your standing with the client. And it's something they can grab onto. And and everybody gets frustrated with processes at some point in the you know, like there it's going to cause some frustration, but the goal is like overall it's going to help. And similarly, we had a case just recently with a client that we've really enjoyed working with and are a great fit with, but they we realized they sent us spreadsheets to import and we thought the first one was the final. Nope, here's a second one. We're like, "Okay, great. This will be it." We're on the sixth version, but before they sent the sixth version our project man I was like we're I'm conversing with the project manager and she's like, "I'm going to email them and tell them this is the last version that we're going to do for free and happy to do more, but it'll cost money. And the the next version was the final version, or they're going to pay. You know, but like also I think like this idea of process and we're trying to get better at that, too. Like just setting firm And other ideas like that we've been getting more and more firm on is revision rounds. And I think it's been really helpful to let the clients know what our process is. Like they feel comfort in it. It increases like our professionalism, hopefully in their eyes, but also it sets firm boundaries about when we're going to charge, when we're not going to charge, and like it sets those expectations early. And so we had a client uh recently, great client. And they're like, "Hey, I know we signed off on the document saying we're ready to go with this, but here's a thing that we want you to tweak." And our project manager was able to say, "We're happy to do that, but you already agreed to this. We're already beyond that. Here if you want Here's the invoice if you want to do that." And they said, "Okay, we'll do We'll pay you for it." You know, like they understood, you know, we communicated up front. They checked the box that said, "Anything more beyond this is going to cost money." Yeah. Well, and that's so important because the delineation of roles within the organization allows the the project manager has no problem with that, right? The project manager is like, "Nope, that was done. That's extra. Here's your invoice." The salesperson would have like that that connection to making the sale, right? And they And they would be have that relationship in the back of their head. And they would be like, "Ah, come on, it's just a quick change. Can't we just factor that in?" And you as the owner, you're like, "I really don't want friction on this. Let's just make the customer happy." Right? But no, people downwind that aren't part of that original relationship cycle, they're like, "Nope, that was done. That's extra. Here's your invoice." It's perfect. >> Perfect. Exactly. And as the owner of the agency, you get to like it's been nice to kind of push those boundaries down my project managers and say like, "No, just charge. By default, we're going to charge. Maybe you can decide to make an exception." And one thing we've been doing is um we created a a values document recently that I shared with our team to kind of I don't want them coming to me for everything. I want to push responsibility on them and say like before you talk to me run it through this framework and if you can make a decision based on our values, make the decision and here's like the dollar value that is within balance like if it if you can do it for X amount of dollars and you think it fits, go ahead and do it. But also like even if it's in that value, whatever that dollar amount is, and you think it's not fair, don't do it. Set a boundary and say happy to do it here's here's the invoice. Yeah. No, that's all really really good stuff. In terms of support for for those moments where you think to yourself, why am I bothering to do this or or what is the what's the sense? What's the purpose? How much of your drive to continue has to do with like your professional partnerships or people that you associate with away from the day-to-day Mighty Mo stuff? >> So I think the thing that keeps me going when I'm not sure is that my team is there and they're counting on me to be there and to be thoughtful, you know, for their for their sake. Yeah. And I try to be very thoughtful before you know, before doing anything rash. For example, we have a developer who's currently part-time but some weeks he works, you know, close to full-time hours and I've told him I'm like I'm trying to get you up to full-time but I can't promise. I'm not going to bring you up there until I can promise you that consistently cuz I don't want to bring you up and then break your heart and you know, >> Yeah. I've kind of like over the years, I used to care a lot about what my peers thought. Is Toby doing amazing things that are award-winning or is he like a you know, Joe Schmo solopreneur and I actually don't >> win the Etsy award. Yeah, exactly. I used to care a lot about that like, you know, 15 years ago, maybe 10 years ago. I care hopefully close to zero about that now. I mean, I think I'm just a more mature human today than I was definitely 20 years ago. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. And I um like my my goals now I try to frame in terms of like how am I serving my community and my family and my community includes my clients and my employees, but How about you? How do How do you look at that? Over the years, so when I first started, I didn't even know there was a WordPress community. I mean, I 12 15 years of slugging the thing out before I realized there was a community. And then things changed, you know, a lot of it has to do with age, exposure to the community, if we if we want to you know, point that out. But it's it's like this podcast with the WP Minute, Matt and the team, right? Like I look at that as yeah, great opportunity, but also an obligation, right? Like like are we under contract? No, but but are someone expecting me to come up with this content? Yes. I do the lives with LifterLMS every week, right? That that's an exposure, that that's another channel. I do content with Jonathan over at WP Tonic and I do some work for WP Tonic, right? Through through Manuel on the Amoss. And so those ties that we have, those tentacles that reach out from just what we do, the things that get us connected and and involved with these other organizations, it gives me a sense of I'm not alone in this thing. I'm I'm doing this with others. And yeah, Manuel on the Amoss is separate and it creates its own revenue stream and it does its own work, but the tentacles outreach to other things. And it makes me feel like makes me feel like we really do belong, right? Like like I'm not forcing my way into the room where where I don't belong, right? I'm not like I'm not like some dude in like Bermuda shorts and and flip-flops trying to get into a room full of guys in tuxedos, right? Like it's like I actually belong in these circles and it feels really good to to be in that space. And so in that respect, I think those professional partnerships help from a marketing perspective, obviously, podcast exposure and getting to mention Manuel on the Amoss, you know, a gazillion times, that that certainly helps. But it's more like like there's tools. So, like LifterLMS is a plugin, Gravity Forms is a plugin, Fluent Forms is a plugin, right? And and by knowing and engaging with the people that that make those tools, well well now I feel like we're part of that exchange as well, right? And then I just got to say, I'm on a subcontracting model, right? Most of my staff is all subcontracted. And so, I'm usually job sharing with people. And so, that creates relationships that are interwoven. And so, when I have those moments like I did, you know, 6 weeks ago where I'm like, "Oh god, I should just get a job." Well, what would I do with all those relationships and tentacles and and webs that I was talking about, right? I'd have to sever all that or at least downplay it all. And so, for me, it just makes sense to keep forging forward and know that the the harvest does come, right? As long as you do the work, the harvest does come. It doesn't always come in the timing that you want, but it always shows up. >> Yeah. So, maybe in I'm thinking about these professional partnerships, Kurt. Maybe we can end with this. Like, one thing I struggle with is and this is historically, despite my best efforts of like trying to be real and be like my goal is to close the gap between like public Toby and the Toby that I'm what I'm sitting at home alone on a Friday night or usually I'm not alone. Usually I'm with my kids and my family. Like like my goal is that when you see me at the no-code meetup, you're seeing the same person that you see on Friday. But as we were talking earlier, you know, we do this podcast and and you see this all over YouTube and you know, people everything's great. Or you go go to some conference and somebody's presenting and they're everything's great. Everything's perfect in my business and we never have any problems. The problems we have are like, you know, these you know, like the problem is I'm not I work too hard, you know, that's the problem, you know, like Yeah. But how do you be real in these conversations with professionals? And how do you set yourself up to belong despite who you are know, who I am? How do I set myself up despite the nuances I bring at you know in my room? You know what? I find that I'm an oversharer cuz I just tell people if things suck. Um because it comes up. But there's a difference in there's a difference in like saying, "Oh, things are rough right now, but we'll get through it, right?" Like like or you know, "Ebbs and flows, you know, we're in a valley now, the mountain's coming, right?" Like like I'm usually that way. I'm not like things are slow. "My god, please, do you know have anyone that can send us some work?" Like I just think that that is there's like a line not to cross, right? I don't want to seem desperate. In fact, when I look at our April and what we did sell, I didn't sell that from being desperate. I sold that from being confident, being like, "We are the expert. This is our field of expertise. This is our specialty. We're going to knock this out of the park for you, but it's going to cost this much, right?" And these sales don't happen when you're hat in hand and desperate, right? Like So, I I think when we're sewing seed and we're and we're and we're building our equity and our value in the space, I think it's really important if things are slow revenue-wise, not to get caught up in that and allow yourself to become desperate. You have to recognize that that that whole time you weren't selling, you were building the value that is going to sell. That's the hardest thing. That is the hardest thing. I remember like yesterday, you know, the reason I'm doing this whole apprentice program to teach people how to run a successful agency is I remember begging people to let me build them a website for 500 bucks. And then them coming in with all kinds of crazy asks like like you know, "Well, I want a custom slider." Now, remember I'm talking like 18 years ago, right? So, "I want a custom slider. I want I want a gradient background. I want I All these things." And I'm trying to figure, "Well, how do I code that in the back of the of the They called it the editor in WordPress, right? You go back and you get the code and all that stuff. Um what a nightmare. And I did it cuz I was a And then I ran into people five years, six years later that looked at me dead in the eye and went, "You built that? Dude, that's like a 50 or 60 thousand dollar website. What did you charge for that?" And I'm like, "$1,200." And they're like, "You're a You're the reason that people are cheap. You're the reason people keep trying to drive down the value of what we do. It's because there's people that'll do it cheap, you know?" And I had to learn the hard way that I had to justify my my expenses and my charges and all that stuff. Yeah. Well, thank you. That's Tell us how people can get in touch with you, Kurt. >> LinkedIn. I'm the only Kurt Von Ahnen on LinkedIn. You can reach me there. Or, better yet, come to mananamas.com and see what we offer over there. Toby, you? Also on LinkedIn. My last name is C R Y N S. First name Toby. Uh you can find me at themightymo.com. Uh make sure to like and subscribe and whatever you kids are doing these days cuz it helps the algorithm. So, thanks everybody., Finding Purpose in Agency Work, YouTube, 01kt430rt73w5xj7sb41kmxyg7.