Chapters: 00:00:00 Intro 00:00:57 Community Feedback 00:11:14 WordPress vs WP Engine Backstory 00:23:45 To the Point on the Drama 00:37:46 Ryan Shares Leadership Tips 00:39:46 Ethics And Nuance 00:54:19 Skip the Drama, Alternatives to WordPress 01:00:28 Sorry, We are Long Winded 01:01:41 Gaming: Goodboy Galaxy 01:04:32 Tip of the Week: OpenSnitch 01:07:42 Support the Show 01:09:32 Outro --- Links: - Community Feedback - https://destinationlinux.net/comments - https://destinationlinux.net/forum - Michael's videon on the WordPress vs WP Engine Drama - https://youtu.be/wxkzOsVvk8k - WordPress vs WP Engine Drama - https://wordpress.org/news/2024/09/wp-engine - https://wordpress.org/news/2024/10/spoon/ - https://wordpressfoundation.org/trademark-policy/ - https://youtube.com/watch?v=fnI-QcVSwMU - https://wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Complaint-WP-Engine-v-Automattic-et-al-with-Exhibit.pdf - https://techcrunch.com/2024/09/25/legal-ping-pong-in-the-wordpress-world-continues-automattic-now-sends-wp-engine-a-cease-and-desist-letter-alleging-trademark-infringement/ - https://techcrunch.com/2024/10/04/159-employees-are-leaving-automattic-as-ceos-fight-with-wp-engine-escalates/ - https://techcrunch.com/2024/10/19/wordpress-vs-wp-engine-drama-explained/ - https://404media.co/automattic-buyout-offer-wordpress-matt-mullenweg/ - https://cio.com/article/3545272/things-get-nasty-in-lawsuit-between-wordpress-org-and-wp-engine.html - https://searchenginejournal.com/wordpress-co-founder-automattic-sued-for-attempted-extortion/529109/ - https://slate.com/technology/2024/10/wordpress-wpengine-matt-mullenweg-drama-explained.html - https://theverge.com/..." --- Full Court WordPress on WP Engine  ## Metadata - Author: [[Destination Linux]] - Full Title: Full Court WordPress on WP Engine - Category: #articles - Summary: Support the show by becoming a patron at https://tuxdigital.com/membership or get some swag at https://tuxdigital.com/store SHOW NOTES ►► https://destinationlinux.net/396 Hosted by: Michael Tunnell = https://michaeltunnell.com Jill Bryant = https://jilllinuxgirl.com Ryan (DasGeek) = https://dasgeek.net --- Chapters: 00:00:00 Intro 00:00:57 Community Feedback 00:11:14 WordPress vs WP Engine Backstory 00:23:45 To the Point on the Drama 00:37:46 Ryan Shares Leadership Tips 00:39:46 Ethics And Nuance 00:54:19 Skip the Drama, Alternatives to WordPress 01:00:28 Sorry, We are Long Winded 01:01:41 Gaming: Goodboy Galaxy 01:04:32 Tip of the Week: OpenSnitch 01:07:42 Support the Show 01:09:32 Outro --- Links: - Community Feedback - https://destinationlinux.net/comments - https://destinationlinux.net/forum - Michael's videon on the WordPress vs WP Engine Drama - https://youtu.be/wxkzOsVvk8k - WordPress vs WP Engine Drama - https://wordpress.org/news/2024/09/wp-engine - https://wordpress.org/news/2024/10/spoon/ - https://wordpressfoundation.org/trademark-policy/ - https://youtube.com/watch?v=fnI-QcVSwMU - https://wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Complaint-WP-Engine-v-Automattic-et-al-with-Exhibit.pdf - https://techcrunch.com/2024/09/25/legal-ping-pong-in-the-wordpress-world-continues-automattic-now-sends-wp-engine-a-cease-and-desist-letter-alleging-trademark-infringement/ - https://techcrunch.com/2024/10/04/159-employees-are-leaving-automattic-as-ceos-fight-with-wp-engine-escalates/ - https://techcrunch.com/2024/10/19/wordpress-vs-wp-engine-drama-explained/ - https://404media.co/automattic-buyout-offer-wordpress-matt-mullenweg/ - https://cio.com/article/3545272/things-get-nasty-in-lawsuit-between-wordpress-org-and-wp-engine.html - https://searchenginejournal.com/wordpress-co-founder-automattic-sued-for-attempted-extortion/529109/ - https://slate.com/technology/2024/10/wordpress-wpengine-matt-mullenweg-drama-explained.html - https://theverge.com/... - URL: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Sw-UVBD7GMw&si=gXv9lFqeQmMgSEmN on this week's episode WordPress goes completely scorched Earth nuclear or are they just doing what's right this is People's Court and you will decide or we will we all will decide I guess we'll decide for you and People's Court we'll discort we'll decide what we think you can agree or not agree and there we go welcome to destination Linux where we discuss the latest news Hot Topics gaming mobile and all things open source and Linux my name is Michael and joining me are the human emulators of tech enthusiasm Jill and Ryan hi everyone you know it's all simulation anyways who cares right who cares it's what they say it's all simulation and there's all yeah exactly it's it doesn't matter anymore now let's get this show on the road to our destination [Applause] Linux this week our feedback comes from Rob Rob has this to say this is a comment on hiring and starting out for newbies or the fngs I don't know what that stands no idea what that means it could be something bad it could be something good I have no clue fresh new graduates maybe oh yeah fresh new graduates possibly yeah let's go with that in the industry when hiring kids out of school I've looked for character traits rather than skills or experience specifically candidates who have a technical aptitude have an interest in computer are interested in how stuff actually works rather than just being Gamers or social media uh Kings or Queens be able to communicate and have a work ethic to achieve the last one all they need to have done is held down a weekend or part-time job pretty much doing anything it just proves to me they will turn up and follow instructions and try to get the job done so Rob if you haven't listened to Prior episode we had a uh young person ride in asking for advice uh trying to get um into system architect or system engineer or system administrator they were trying to get a system administrator position wanted some advice and things so Rob kindly wrote in giving some advice from a hiring perspective manager's perspective which I think is really appreciated they go on to say the way I always try to treat them is that I give uh them problems to solve or stuff to achieve with just enough guidance to get them going in the right way for the first few months it will take longer than spoon feeding them direct instructions but the end result is you get Engineers who can get stuff done and troubleshoot their own mistakes thanks again Rob so Rob first of all uh really appreciate you sending this in and a lot of kids who are trying to start out their careers are in this really frustrating part where they're like they go for interviews and they're like well you don't have enough experience and they're like okay but in order to get experience I have to get a job and I can't get a job without having the experience and so I really appreciate the fact Rob that you not only obviously hired students uh but you thought about how you can direct them in a way that they'll be most successful when you did that which I think is really important because it is really important to have a mixture of you know all kinds of different employees in my experience when you have a very diverse group of people in thought experience age you end up having a way more power ful team in my experience of shoot nearly 15 years of leadership that's always been the case uh a lot of managers and leaders will seek people out that think just like them and they work just like them and their teams will do good but they'll never be as good as that team that has a lot that kind of um I don't know engages that thought of thinking outside the box in people innov Innovation yeah so you know Rob clearly you know this is something that you've done that you've thought a lot about and when you brought them on it is as a manager though you have to realize when you're bringing somebody new on it does have a ramp up period and sometimes that can be very costly if you're in the middle of a project and you need to get that project done you've got these deadlines it's really hard to be like oh let me hire a student that I'm GNA have to ramp up through this uh and possibly have to do a lot of handholding and things with versus getting that person that's got 20 years experience on my team who can basically hit the road running theoretically although sometimes that person with 20 years experience is a complete dead weight too so you've got it doesn't just because they've got experience doesn't mean they're going to be great in the job so but I think this is great sometimes they hit the ground running and sometimes they just hit the ground yeah exactly I think this is great advice though overall you know you want to show that you have aptitude to do things and a lot of resumés with young folks will put things like their Hobbies or video games and all that type of stuff uh even if that is true I mean we all play video games here I think it would be better off doing some of the advice like we talked about last time setting up your own home lab you know um volunteering for bug uh hunting and and fixing bugs trying to do p requests for a open source project stuff like that exactly I think that stuff is the type of thing that you want to list out and uh really show that you have a really strong work ethic cuz that's the thing as a hiring manager that you're thinking about is okay I'm going to have to handhold them a little bit but if they've got really strong work ethic and I don't have to keep calling them going where you at are you gonna show up on time are you still working on this are you gonna get it done it's it's a huge relief as a manager when you don't have to worry about those things so Rob fantastic advice really appreciate you sending in that feedback what are your thoughts Jill a yeah Rob again thank you so much for writing in with your fantastic hiring tips this was this is great and you know I've I've also always told my students that they have to have a good work ethic be responsible show up on time and have a good attitude just just like they do when they come to my classroom they got to show up on time and have a good attitude and want to get you know work done and it was it was extremely crucial in the industry um that I was teaching which was animation where sometimes the students would have to work two and three days sometimes without sleep so because you have to get you have those deadlines you know where whether you're working in TV or film so it was it's insane it's a little insane so you have normal hours and then all of a sudden you you go for several weeks without very little sleep y absolutely but as long as you have the passion and the and the enthusiasm to do it you'll you'll get it done yeah proactiveness is a very powerful thing because if you the whole work work ethic thing people think well why how do I prove that you know because that once you you have to have the job in order to say you have the work ethic but there's also elements that you could go be proactive like we're talking about doing pull requests and stuff like that for developers there's also uh testing things or like a home lab for assisted mans and all all sorts of stuff you can do that you can answer the questions to prove that you have experience even when you don't have like a work experience but also proactiveness is a very important thing in the sense that that there's something that happens in every interview that younger people or and a lot of people in general don't properly do is there's standard questions and they they ask you these questions even though you know that they're going to ask it they ask it because people fumble on them like for example uh where do you see yourself in five years they don't want you to say something that's like a generic thing they want you to like tell them the process of how you're going to get to it and and but the bigger thing is they're going to ask you the question of do you have anything to ask me like you have any questions for me if you do not it will sound like you didn't do your homework so have at least a couple maybe three or more and then that way you've proven that you're proactive and that will help it much faster in the interview yeah and if you want some sample questions to ask at the end just use some from our lightning round interviews I'm kidding don't do that I okay first of all Ryan's suggestion is absolutely awesome and I would like to know how many people pick muffins over cupcakes when you're being interviewed in an interiew don't actually do that but I would love to know yeah it be a funny skit oh you know what though but that's a great point is to have something fun to lighten up the interview with questions like that are always fun sure it's the right room for that yeah you have to gauge the room for sure caution and uh yeah maybe if you don't care about getting the job you know just roll the dice and try it like hey what's your favorite candy bar that's my question what you should do is have three real questions yeah and then finish it off with a silly question uh you shouldn't actually do that but that that's a way you could do it without coming across as being like just non from great advice that Rob gave to us just completely obliterating these poor souls abilities to ever get a job you know so to be serious though do not use questions listen to Rob thank you rob listen to Rob be proactive and listen to Rob there you go all right everyone thank you so much for your feedback look you could be part of the show this is a big part of our show every single week your feedback matters it makes this show better by having you write in and tell us your thoughts comments things that you've went through struggles feedback on the show you can even write us about why you're disappointed Michael hates Peanut the squirrel like these are things we're all how dare you put that on me on on in on in the show he's been saying that for like the last 20 30 minutes before we started the show to the patrons and now he's putting don't put this on me I have nothing to do with any you should have reported I did people I have nothing against peanut Ryan is making stuff up off topic eek there goes a squirrel oh look squirrel all right let's uh so send in your comments to destination linux. netc comments if you're still really high or uh go to destination linux. netforum and put your comments there your thoughts your questions it may get picked to be part of the show and uh if it didn't get picked don't think it's because you didn't send a good question it's likely because Michael forgot to send it to me and that's why 100% knew he was going to say that and I I I felt like that was coming and then when he said it I realized it might be true yeah sometimes there have been times where I have not sent you things because for like a week later yeah so we're gonna move on Michael move on okay you're telling me you're telling me WordPress that there's something there's something going on here and there's some drama some tea as my wife would call it there's some tea going on at WordPress and we're gonna cover it here we're gonna cover it here because I want to is it hot sizzling tea is it boiling it's nuclear in fact scorched Earth nuclear WordPress is just like I don't know it seems so innocent it's just a little website building program what could possibly be wrong here I'm fascinated let's go well it well basically it boils down to money but we're GNA get to that in a second oh well yeah so for those who don't know if you've never heard of Wordpress I highly doubt that because you're in this space watching this show but you haven't WordPress is a Content management system it's a piece of software that helps you build a website and be able to manage a website and that sort of stuff and it's basically powering around 45% of all websites it is a staggering amount of front page it's like front page get out you're not allowed to have this no comparison he said get out yeah you're not allowed to have this conversation now I love the front page back in the day front page is underrated you would yes it was so good you hate you hate peanut and you love front page that's exactly what you hate peanut no you you're a scr hater this is a nonsense conversation oh we should go back to the text editor days of making web pages that's what it was great please no please no um uh so WordPress is a very popular very uh powerful in terms of how how much of the web it's been running uh software and there is a little bit of some conflict happening in the WordPress Community uh you could call it drama you could call it te for some reason if you wanted to and uh it's basically that the the founder of uh WordPress and automatic and the foundation and all that stuff uh has decided to make some moves that has been questioned by a lot of of people uh even including leading to mass resignation of the company automatic which he also founds or founded who and runs so it's like Mass resignation is in like two people left or what as in over 150 the actual number I don't know because there was two different sessions and we only know how many people left from one offer so there was like a severance package offer saying that if you want if you don't agree with what we're doing you can leave and 159 people left at that point but they said they only gave like three months severance pay and then they also said uh okay if some people were saying they would have left but they couldn't because they don't they didn't that that's not enough time or not enough Severance or whatever and then they did it again later for nine months severance pay but you only had four hours to let them know inside of slack that you were going to leave so it was there's some weird stuff here so weird Okay so will agree this is not a great way to run a company yeah not a great way to run a cop company this is yeah this is odd no matter what the rest of the story is hear me out WordPress because I know you're listening I got you right you're like oh how do you know we're not watching you through your phone we just know we know you listen to the show like you're not doing good leading this is not leadership you don't act like this you don't tell people if you don't like it go this is not some like uh dictatorship where you're running some you know Army through a battle for Battleground Earth to save the planet right you're running a company where you want people to collaborate and feel part of something to help build it you don't you don't do threats like that yes you can but that makes you a jerk and you don't want to be like that you want to be the person that supports and likes fluffy ninjas fluffy tailed ninjas unlike Michael who hates the little squirrels stop trying to put this on me it is not true it is nonsense you can't say something that's valid and then completely destroy that by making me yell at you for saying stuff that's not realy tailed ninjas they are fluffy tailed ninjas I agree yes they go from tree to tree like Little Ninjas like yeah exactly it looks like they don't even jump they just they're just there at some point you see you see the flight but you don't see the jump yeah exactly um but anyway back to the actual topic oh yeah so so I agree it is weird that that's happening but it gets a little weirder oh God so yeah really have to we could have stopped there guys that was enough that was enough but let's give some context because a lot of people don't know how the WordPress structure works because it's a little more not necessarily sketchy but once you know this you kind of see like this is a little weird because it's a weird in my opinion because it's like when you talk about having different competitors then you know you're working with competitors and the whole open- Source aspect is one thing but people people are saying that his leadership is not great but when it comes to Wordpress he's basically the sole leader of everything because the WordPress Foundation was founded by him and he runs the that Foundation that's what manages the wordpress.org um website as that's what provides the service of the CMS of of the of the entire process of Wordpress it's also the uh owners of the trademark for WordPress and automatic is the company that Matt also founded and owns and runs and that one owns wordpress.com woocommerce uh askimet which is like the spam thing I didn't know they had all of that stuff and Jetpack and a bunch of others there's actually like a huge list they even also re which was completely irrelevant to the topic but they also bought Tumblr and Pocket Casts really yeah Tumblr yeah GE and apparently they're going to open source apparently open source tumbler by turning it into WordPress I I I don't know I know Tumblr was still a thing that that's a good point too yeah and also the the the Pocket Cast purchase is is kind of out of left field like why are you getting into the podcast app world but sure fine but uh still kind should combine Yahoo with tumbler and like AOL and make one big retro company one I think they kind of tried to do that at some point but Myspace too throw Myspace in there yeah why not do it all sorry so the foundation was created by Matt it he it's ran by Matt automatic is a company that is created by Matt and ran by Matt and then there's also the services like wordpress.com and pressable all controlled by automatic and more importantly is that the trademark is controlled by the foundation and the sole exclusive right to use the license of the trademark is too automatic so why is it structured in that way I don't know but that's how it's structured and it's basically saying that Matt has pretty much control over whatever he wants to do and this is kind of like people are people are saying this is the cause of why it's so messy is because one person can make an out like a they can make a decree that this is going to happen and all of a sudden there's no option that's that's what's gonna happen well I mean Matt founded this he spent his you know probably unbelievable amount of work at the beginning um Untold amount of work to make this thing possible and WordPress has become one of the Staples of open-source software in the way of when I say Staples of something you can say hey what's something that's open source that's really popular out there um that people probably don't even know is open source necessarily they just use it because it's just great software and WordPress would be one of the ones uh that a lot of people would mention there's 's a lot of articles that are constantly out about the plugins having major security holes and things in them that makes WordPress a lot less interesting to me but I mean in general you have to realize that you have to realize that like the web in general is just a very big Target so anytime you have a web building service WordPress gets a is going to be heavily targeted and it is heavily targeted but they've done a lot of work um to to kind of clean that stuff up and to try fix those security holes WordPress is one of those companies I hold in high esteem so I'm really surprised Matt that I'm hearing about this here maybe he doesn't likees Fe yeah but so um this is some I'm not sure why you're being so specific with his name well I need Matt to know that like what are you doing dude I'm pretty sure he knows he runs WordPress no to know that I'm not happy what I'm hearing about this lead this lead Matt this leadership stuff is unnecessary you kind what you were saying is interesting though because you're talking about how like he's done a lot of great stuff and and yeah but because he he did WordPress in an open- Source way way before open source was a thing that people do for like marketing and stuff this was like 2003 so we're talking about like the era that open source was barely around for even a few years and using that as a way to build the system and and and it's it's a fantastic system I mean there are issues I have with it overall but they have provided an ecosystem and a community that people can build companies like I did so I many years ago built a website website development company and WordPress was a foundational piece of that and and there's many other options as well but WordPress was there because it was such a good thing and what you said many other options I was just throwing front page in there and stuff like that it was definitely not front page no no interes Dr that's how I started founding my web company page so anyway point is I've have Decades of experience with WordPress or at least 15 plus and WordPress is great in a lot of ways the plugins are Hit or Miss because the plug-in issue is more like it's a plugin Community you never know what you're going to get everyone can build plugins and put them in there some are great for one version but not another yeah yeah they don't get updated quick enough I mean that's that's an issue of like the third party developers and stuff like that sure uh but there are things that annoy me about WordPress we could talk about if you want towards the end let's let's get back to the get what's happening because like yeah let's want to know more about Matt let get let's talk about what Matt did at word Camp okay what' you do before we get to that WP engine is also a part of this whole drama and they're a third party company that hosts more WordPress sites than automatic and contributes fairly minimally to Wordpress okay let me get this straight I want to make sure I understand so Matt owns WordPress WordPress or all these WordPress org hosts WordPress sites for you and stuff if you don't want to do your own no no technically so technically Matt owns automatic which is a company he founded and controls the foundation but he doesn't own the foundation because it is a separate it is a nonprofit organization nonprofit so there's that he owns wordpress.com which is the hosting service the foundation technically controls wordpress.org which is the open source project side so clearly uh it's very confusing kind of system and then you've got this WordPress engine company this WordPress engine company that's ass engine WP engine okay it is okay so you've got WordPress engine we'll get to that it's very distinctive we'll get to that in a second this it's not WordPress engine it's WP engine and there there in lies the problem or at least that's what Matt says so at word Camp it's Matt Matt says that so thank you so at WordPress us this year mull which is a couple weeks ago Mullen we M Mullen wig or Matt accused WP engine of extracting from open source and and encourage encourage the community to boycott them and you know vote for your with your wallet and and use something other than them they he doesn't necessarily say use wordpress.org only he but he does say something else support them yeah and there was also a post after this uh as at wordpress.org La labeled WP engine is not WordPress and in that comment or in that blog post it says that that WP engine is a cancer to Wordpress and that unchecked cancer will spread GE Matt uh yes mat this Matt wrote this apparently yeah apparently geez and one of the reasons is because they're alleging that um WP engine is using their The Branding and the trademark Wrong by using the wp part of it confusing people into thinking that WP engine is an official company or somehow connected because of the wp people think it means WordPress engine which technically it makes sense like what you did yes and it makes sense you would think that because that's what WP would mean in the context of Wordpress however in the context of the actual company name WP means nothing it's just the letters and there's a lot looking at their logo for WP engine and it's just a you know it's a very generic logo it's not like WordPress is logo in any way and I'm looking at their page it doesn't look like they're trying to copy wordpress's design or anything it looks very generic I mean it's clearly clearly looking now are you you're looking at it right now yes yeah so right now they have like little notifications that you click the little one next to the word WordPress and it takes you to the footer that says we're not affiliated to Wordpress we're not an official company or anything like that and I forgot the actual disclaimer they used but it's basically that before this whole thing came out WP engine did not have any disclaimer on their website that I could find that said that they were not associated they never said that they were but people were confused by it because they just assumed it was I could see that I could see some confusion there I mean WP engine is is pretty close if you were just searching let me just go to Google here and just do an interesting little search of Wordpress hosting service and see what ones come up first here WP engine is number one and wordpress.com is number two under the sponsored links right WordPress hosting is number one on the non sponsored links um and then which one is the wordpress.org comes up.org is not the hosting site that's the site where you get the software Goa which is the first hosting site yep um we've got Forbes article on the 10 best WordPress hosting Services then wordpress.com okay wordpress.com okay and then Blu host and then dream host and then hostinger and then Reddit actually don't see anything but uh you know in the sponsored section anything related to WP engine so um and their little tagline under there says WP engine provide you with Smart Tools design build and launch your website with ease 200,000 customers trust WP engine host their WordPress website so and their logo again does not look like WordPress in any way I would say yeah yeah very different so the WordPress trademark is really the the ex the issue and there was there was even a thing before so before the talk there was reports that uh Matt uh sent sent some messages to WP engine to get them to um basically give a trademark usage license and pay royalties and stuff like that of 8% I guess all of their profit who knows oh wow so this is like uh back in New York when you ran a mafia and you'd go to the pizza shop and you'd be like hey you want some protection you gotta pay us part of your profit and then you you beat them up and then they give you 8% of their profit just because you're offering protection that they didn't need from you type of thing sounds like it sound it sounds very eerily similar huh okay so pay us 8% because your name sounds like because people are confused by you using something that we said you could but if what that's fine we don't want you to stop if you give us eight% of your profits got it okay interesting that's uh fascinating so there's a lot to this and we're going to get to it but uh before we get to all the the stuff there's before if you're just new to this topic and you're just learning about it like Ryan is um there's a lot of stuff to this and we have our own takes on this but there is a right way to have done this and I don't think Matt did the right way and that's where the drama comes from yeah you should have asked for 12% Matt 8% is the wrong way 42% come on exactly go for the that's the perfect number obviously you go away so um yeah so after this this talk happened after the blog post happened um Matt and and Matt and automatic we uh so actually we should say it that way because automatic is spelled with two T's On The Mat part so it's automatic oh um that's why he did that probably Matt yeah exactly and uh anyway WP engine sent a cease and desist to um to them saying stop saying the stuff you're saying also retract the things you said and all of that because they call her cancer you know it's pretty harsh right I mean it's a little harsh yeah it's a little harsh but there are uh and also people were reporting that it was a theoretically saying it's like extortion or whatever but uh that's you know your perspective um but automatic responded with a counter ceas and assist which they um uh also went another Step Beyond that and banned WP engine from wordpress.org oh wonderful and this started a legal battle where WP engine sent uh started a lawsuit suing uh automatic and word or whatever I don't know who's all involved in the actual lawsuit because I mean basically it's Matt but you know whatever well you know who wins here the lawyers the lawyers are clear the lawyers Are Gonna Love Community is not winning Matt's not winning WP engine's not winning but the lawyers they're winning here man they are loving this yes because both sides are getting lots of money from with their lawyers yeah they're like oh let me get my lawyer on the horn and have them send to cease and assist oh yeah well my lawyer is going to send a letter to you uh telling you you're a dummy head and then all this stuff keeps going and the letters are like that was not a quote by the way we don't actually called anybody a dummy head that might be too far they called him a cancer that's way better that's this is uh this is really ridiculous uh this whole thing sounds really ridiculous and it's upsettingly ridiculous because we're in an open- Source community and Matt and WP P engine need to understand that none of them would have been successful if it wasn't for all the volunteers that have helped out over the years and the users who have worked on WordPress to make it popular and used WordPress and the people you're hurting are the users now of Wordpress because now you're wrapping them up in your drama because you as adults could not sit down with each other and figure out a solution in the open source World instead you want to drag everybody through the mud and this is what happens when lots of money gets involved because I'm just guessing here Matt's probably not middle class I'm guessing he's got a couple Mill confident he has lots of money yeah I mean so basically the amount of money in theory is we're talking about hundreds of millions and is WP engine uh brand new did it just did this just pop up is not brand new in fact it's hilarious in some ways because WP engine was started in 2010 yeah it's been around for years and it gets there there's so much craziness in this because well not only was it fine Matt invested in WP engine in the beginning oh Lord Matt in like 2011 or something and also just real quick the open source message that Ryan said 100% OB we're all in agreement there of course open source is important it's it's necessity but it also might have been required because it turns out that WordPress did not start out of nothing it was a fork of something else which was also GPL and open source and had to be open source in order to Fork it and so who who knows if the actual you know whatever someone who's done the history uh review of this let us know but here here's the thing uh Matt I'm gonna tell you this listen to me all right just me and you right now nobody else is around uh in my opinion you'd be a coward not to show up on the show and give us why you're going through this like a good reason like come on the show we'll give you a fair interview we'll open mic it we'll let you like tell us what in your words is going on here because it doesn't anything we won't edit anything it doesn't look good WP engine same offer you want to come on the show we'll let you come in and tell your part of the story because the problem with us reporting on this from this view up here is we only see what gets out in the public in the news and maybe there's a bunch of other stuff going on that we don't know about but I can tell you both none of this is good for open source Community nothing you guys are doing right now is helping the open source Community whoever is right or wrong it's just you're damaging a really great product that both of you have done very well off of and you could find a solution here behind closed doors without dragging uh things through the mud but the last thing I want to say is Matt I read about your uh blind blocking your employees on this site called Blind which I didn't even know existed this is some site where employees can kind of talk about their employer or their bosses and it's kind of like a glass what is that one called glass door kind like that type of thing but you have to use a company email to sign up for it and things it's not required but they do recommend doing that yeah and and apparently if you do that uh allegedly in Matt's company then he gets the email and gets to know that you're on there and then can kind of like track your comments and stuff which is creepy and not very open source and honestly I feel it's a way to block it entirely Matt uh as a leader you should be looking for the feedback and there's going to be feedback where you had a really bad employee and you fire them and they tell you you suck and all that and you kind of ignore that uh at times um but then there's feedback that are coming from really good employees who really love the company but they're really frustrated with how things are going and instead of looking at that negatively like how can I get rid of them or I'm going to block them you should really be looking in the mirror going how can I fix these problems within my company and make it a better place to work that's what real leaders do and I just don't feel like when I see that on top of the 150 Employees leaving which is a lot I think that's like 14% if I did the math correctly of your entire employee base uh that's really showing you that something you're doing is wrong and you probably need to check yourself but with that being said don't be a coward come on the show let's talk about it and we can figure this thing out and as an open source Community because you have an amazing product here yeah and this is a super important product and project for a lot of people and uh we got to get fixed we got to solve it that's how I feel about it anyways my thought Jill what are your thoughts oh boy so I I I understand some of the the grievances towards WP engine like Matt says you know not donating to the WordPress Foundation um that is just not very cool so and also to be clear not donating ever to yeah ever yeah and that's their statement though we don't know that for that's what that's what Matt said yes got it yep and um also there's no revision history of her posts just to save money it's honestly a bad policy that's that's something a lot of us users like to use as revision history very if you make a mistake go back and change it and all that or maybe some maybe you're working collaborative with someone else and they make a thing then you they accidentally delete your stuff if you don't have a revision to get it back I didn't know that WP engine didn't do that until this whole thing happened I didn't know about blind either until this whole thing happened but it's funny because I always I never really got why WP engine was selected by people I always saw their services as overpriced and not very useful that's just my perspective as a person who's a webdev and I I never really got it but I there are a lot of people who use it apparently so uh I I'm curious why but it also is one more thing I want to say though this is really important because you just you mentioned this and it just came to me that you know the reason why your employees go to blind.com or whatever it is I don't think it's blind.com it's blind something uh to talk about their employment is because they don't feel like they have an outlet that they would actually be listen to within the company that's why they go external so if your leadership was doing what it was supposed to and you had a system within your company where people could actually have a grievance and be taken seriously they wouldn't need to go to this alternate site to go vent and when you read those comments on that site from your employees what I see is a lot of people who love that company love the projects and can't stand the leadership and so something's really wrong when you have those two situations happening I just wanted to to kind of also just real quick to to kind of like add to that part it's like where you know in the old days you know before Tech had these kinds of websites you could do there was the analog style where companies and owners and managers would have a box that you could anonymously put notes in and one would know who said what and you would still get your feedback but the people would be protected from backlash and all that sort of stuff and that's been happening for decades so it's actually good to get information and even anonymously from people who are working for you so you can get those grievances if they have them you can get feedback to improve so I agree that it's kind of weird to block that sort of stuff but doing the it's more sketchy about even like I never even would have cared that that was a thing that that service existed I never knew and then you go and block people's ability to use it so that they have to ask you or yes allegedly 404 this media is saying that that you're blocking their access to even sign up and use it that yeah that comes off as very weird yeah the other grievance I know that he has against WP engine is the brand is confusing WP engine I mean we've we've both even Ryan said it wrong WordPress engine no it's WP engine but I mean obviously it stands for WordPress yeah clearly I mean it does it does and it doesn't technically yeah Nuance is fun yeah it is confusing and they really should change their name but it also isn't cool that automatic is charging WP engine to pay 8% of its revenues which violates open-source principles well they they wanted to they wanted to make them that but they're not doing that so um when you say it violates open source principles could you expand on how it violates it's supposed to be an open- Source product where you where you share with the community and just like basically on the ethics of it is what you're saying yeah on the ethics yeah gotcha that's the good word for it oh I mean I I think I think that's a good that's a fair point and also I feel like there's a lot of nuance to this that it's kind of hilarious because this fundamentally is caused by word press and automatic themselves obviously they're making this weird um attack happening they they have some points though they have some valid points like they they do focused on WordPress and and because Matt has some problems that have clearly popped up that I can see very clearly based on his employees comments and stuff that I want to cover but WP engine if you're not if you're not contributing back then this is the same argument we had with red hat and uh Rocky Linux this is the same thing we were talking about with other projects they're derivatives of Ubuntu of whether they're giving back like if you're using somebody else's work and you're using a name that's eerily similar to the actual company then you should be taking some of those revenues they shouldn't have to ask for the 8% by the way you should be trying to give to the at least to the open source part percentages of your Revenue to keep that project going because you don't exist without it and your contributions should also be uh upstreamed back up to Wordpress and so you know WP engine you're invited to come on the show too because you're not in the clear here by far at all either it's just none of you are handling the situation correctly uh to me this is the whole Red Hat Rocky Linux feel to it it's the same kind of concept I I mean I think it's a little different because there's there are some specific nuances that are different with WordPress situation than the red hat situation because in my opinion Rocky Linux is doing something that is wrong and you could argue that allma Linux was at originally because I think anyone who is making a clone of another product that is basically just taking this thing and slapping a new label on it like you did something I feel like that is unethical but that's just my perspective as far as like technically wrong in terms of Licensing with the GPL license no there's nothing wrong with that but also there's nothing wrong with what WP engine did in a lot of ways so with the license you're allowed to do that as long as you give the source code for the binaries that you are providing the the asterisk here the little loophole here is that WP engine does not provide binaries they provide a service so technically they don't have to provide anything and that is a sketchy situation for sure but it is it is what it is look at me walking the gry line you know what I mean like yeah yes now earlier I was just real quick just real quick I do think it's important uh to say that WP engine is in a different situation than they were in 2010 2010 they were a company that was founded and you know people were they were happy to be a part of the community and the WordPress and all that stuff now they're owned by a private Equity Firm and uh so they're they're probably trying to squeeze as much money out of it so they can destroy it which is what typically private Equity firms do in Michael's opinion in in my opinion of things that I've seen so uh your your opinion is WP engine May uh be doing some things that are a little sketch in my opinion WP engine has done nothing legally wrong whether it is trademark or whether it is related to um software or whatever because because the GPL allows you to do this if you don't like that the GPL allows you to do it don't use it use something else now the other part is it has they haven't done anything wrong in terms of The Branding because they haven't purposefully confused people you can't in my opinion if it's very hard to make that claim because WP engine if you like there's no there's no trademark on the letters WP related to Wordpress it's not the trademark does not cover it they say that themselves on WordPress website the foundation website says that then also on the wordpress.org website you go to the about section there's a section specifically for domains and how you name things and it says that you can't use the word WordPress in your company name because of the trademark but it's spefic specifically says try using WP or something else so they're telling you they are telling you to use WP that's I was going to use an analogy like okay I'm G to start a burger chain called BK uh uh but it's not nothing to do with Burger King okay nothing to do with Burger King um you know like it's it's kind of kind of similar but if Burger King said hey you can't use Burger King but you can use BK if you want don't then you're kind of giving people permission to do that so uh I don't know Matt who's the wp engine owner who's the person that I want to say their name the people the PE I don't know their names anymore because I mean the guy founded it is not own anymore come on the show person and I think there's a CEO that is a separate person if you wanted to say that name yeah yeah CEO I think their name is Heather I don't I don't remember for sure Heather but want to show Heather um but it so that there's a lot to it and this is just like the tip of the iceberg you would imagine that we've said so much that this this is where it ends it's not it there there more there's more things um and we're not going to go into everything because there's but but I do want to say one thing I feel like the confusion that that people have with WP engine being WordPress engine I understand where that comes from but I also feel like it's partly on Matt's fault because they don't do very good or very good marketing or good anything related to explaining what is official and what isn't so for example uh wordpress.org is the opsource project website simple cool wordpress.com is the uh premium managed hosting service that they provide okay cool great where on W or where you where on wordpress.org do they tell you about wordpress.com nowhere nowhere nowhere they tell you on the hosting page in a small little text at the bottom of a couple paragraphs that says you can get started for free so they only tell you about the free plan they don't tell you about the premium part then they give you four other companies that you can use instead for hosting which all of them are managed hosting Services uh three of them are not specifically in the same level that what WP engine they do also all kinds of Hosting like hosting air and blue host and dream host they do all sorts of Hosting but then there's one called pressible and it's basically a direct competitor with WP engine that Matt also owns so that means wordpress.com and pressible are owned by the same company doing the exact same thing for no apparent reason they promote one of them on that Place specifically and nowhere else and it's not like they're trying to balance the promotions the pressable in like the very top one they promote and it just it's so confusing because if you go on wordpress.com you don't see anywhere that they have anything to do with with actually making WordPress you don't if you go to pressible you technically don't see anywhere where they said that either like if you dig deep enough you'll see them talk about how wordpress.com and pressible are the same people but that doesn't explain that they're the same people who make WordPress like it's messy's website is not very good it's not WP engine WP engine is a way better looking site than pressible well it's also the fact that there's just so much clutter in yeah PR site actually looks in my opinion looks like one of those sites that I wouldn't trust because of how it's spam site yeah thank you that's what it looks like to me um like they need to do some work on that but interesting I didn't not know all of that either Michael you've done truly great investigation work you are the Batman of this episode we're very proud of your detective work here and things uh I don't know Jill do you have anything you wna say to finish this off and we can move on yeah so I wanted to mention I've been to actually several word camps and one of my favorite ones was the last time I went to here in Los Angeles in 2018 with the Linux chicks of Los Angeles and you know there were a lot of great box and and one of my favorites was about techniques to use to make your word press sites we more accessible which I currently use today when maintaining WordPress sites and you mention word Camp because it's put on by WordPress yes yes okay and uh uh Matt uh does speak there too nice so you've met Matt yeah I I have seen him speak yes it almost kind kind of made me cry a bit because WordPress has such a vibrant and active open source Community the internal chaos just saddens me greatly and I fear for its open- source future and I've had a lot of friends personally who came into Linux because of Wordpress so you know it we've had this this this shared group of people for um Community Back in Forth for years and a lot of people started at you know going to word camp and then some people started going at to scale and then went to word Camp so there's always been this back and forth and it's how we've grown the community and it's it's just sad to see this like going down it seems like going down the tubes yeah it does so I just want to follow up one thing because Jill what what you were saying is very important and it's it's it's reminded me of something else the I've been contacted by people since this all happened and I made a very indepth video on my Channel about this because that so I there's a there's if you want all of the details there's well as much as I could find find in the period of when I did it you can go check out that video we'll have it linked in the show notes but because of that video and because of all this stuff and people know that I've done webd in the past I've had multiple people contact me directly and ask me what are solutions to get away from WordPress because of all this mess and there's not a lot if you want to drop in replacement that doesn't really exist unless you get one of the forks and the forks do there are forks and it it's it's it kind of makes me feel a little I don't know torn because Ryan is talking about how Matt is doing stuff that is um like leadersh bad leadership and I agree but also at the same time he's doing things that show that he gets open source and he gets it because uh when this whole thing happened a couple Forks were made and then they made a blog post about the forks promoting the forks on the wordpress.org website to acknowledge that they exist acknowledge why they were made and also to tell people if they want to go you can and it's just it's interesting because there's so many things like where he gets certain things right but and also I agree ultimately that what WP engine is doing something unethical and taking software doing nothing back or doing the bare minimum like technically they don't have to do anything legally like license wise that that's at least that's my understanding of the GPL but they they should want to even if they don't give money back they should put a lot of money into development to improve it as much as possible and all that sort of stuff or all the plugins that they make for themselves to put it in the this the plugin Market on wordpress.org some of their stuff is but not everything most of it's not as far as what I've looked at and it's just it's weird because part of me feels like the open-source Advocate is like yeah get WP engine because they're taking advantage of it and then the whole why are you doing it this way side kicks in and goes like it's just it's a mess You' got it stinks because you've got a product that's so important like we mentioned before you've got a a leader who obviously built something great so they've got a lot of skill and Talent Matt but then Matt is making a lot of mistakes here I feel like with his own employees and how he's going about it the fact you have 150 people leave you know is Testament to that you should be wanting to say you when that happened you shouldn't have said uh well fine go if you don't if you're not on our side what you should have thought is why are they leaving right why aren't they on my side what could we have done differently how can we handle this situation maturely a great alternative by the way that I've played with that I like U Michael Michael probably won't agree yet but I think it's worth looking at is ghost I really enjoy ghost I think it's a fantastic yeah uh option to look at if you want to try something different than WordPress um so yeah okay it's it's ghost is good if you are doing something that is not doesn't need to be super complicated because I'm pretty sure it's built in no. JS it's very different it's not a drop in replacement it's an alternative it there there are no drop in Replacements except for the forks and you can find links in the show notes for those but uh also grav is a good one too grv oh yeah that is but that's an alternative that's an alternative uh and it's really interesting it's a very it's a very cool project because it's a a flat file no database system and it's but it's still Dynamic it's very it's a very cool concept um but yeah so there are options of course there's jumla and Drupal and you can try out any of these and that's fine however the Simplicity of Wordpress is still the Simplicity of Wordpress and people like it I mean the amount of people yeah the amount of people and also branding like they they they have a very powerful brand and the amount of people who I have done websites for who specifically ask for WordPress having no idea anything about what WordPress is or what a CMS is or any of that stuff will still actually ask for that that's a sign of its dominance and that people have reasons to like it I have also reasons I don't like it but you know that's for another time yeah I'm gonna start a uh company by the way that um does all of the maintenance and things for your website but it's based on ghost I'm gonna call it gohost gohost ghost call it ghost ghost ghost.com gohost uh it's gonna be really fire you're gonna love it uh anyways I gonna say I'm gonna name it boo like Boo oh that's a good one buha there you go but see that would be way different I feel like WP engine there's something be said there but it's been around forever like all of the sudden this is a problem Matt I think it's a problem because all of a sudden they're making a lot more money than what Matt's company I feel like they're making a lot I think that's part of it also they're making a lot of money when giving nothing back but also yes that's horrific they're that if that's true they are massive jerks and I I cannot support them at all however like it's an ethical conversation the trademark doesn't make any sense because of the whole you can use WP and that's what they're doing and all they had to do is go into the website and say hey we're not affiliated and then they've solved any claim that you said that they you know that that's it's just it's just a mess that it and and also in the uh there was like text message or something that he said that they were G he's gonna go scorched Earth nuclear that was the joke about me yeah so in the intro we were let me look the picture of Matt I don't think Matt can go Scorch anything I'm just guessing but but also you've seen Matt in person Jill does he look like he could go nuclear on the no I'm looking at Matt right now there's nothing that says nuclear scorched Earth uh about Matt you know what's crazy is that also just so you know like I I after try Matt I watched the the last the talk that he was talking about WP engine and stuff and in the talk he seemed reasonable about it and it's like yeah vote with your wallet sure I agree with that vote with your wallet and then it's like then it gets worse and worse and then you're doing things against your own employees and you're doing thing against people who happen to use WP engine because you have if you use WP engine you're you're not supposed to use wordpress.org as in like you're a customer of WP engine they you have to check a box when you log in on wordpress.org that says you're not affiliated with WP engine in any way whatsoever financially otherwise and it's just like to to go that depth I don't get it and but also you watch the you watch the video the talk and he seems like a very nice person and he seems like he gets it and it's just the there's such a broken dichotomy there like I I just I don't know what to think going on Matt yeah quit being a coward come on our show you're really not a coward inv that is the best way to get someone to join your show as a guest is to call him a coward yeah come Scorch on us sticker it Matt okay okay he does have lots of money so don't come scorched Earth on us at all come scorched Earth on this Earth mat come on you should come on the show we we we we are we we making jokes because we don't get it and it's just a weird situation but we are of like probably the just we're probably the most Fair interview you're ever gonna have but also we have people who come on our show who thank us and ask to come back on the show because they enjoy it so much yeah not only will it be good for you in terms of getting everything out in the open but also I think you'll enjoy it um because you know we'll talk about all whateverand Earth thing too Matt yeah we'd be that be fun no we will be give you a very fair Shake here I I really do want to know your take on this Matt like I want to know about this thing with WP engine I want to know what's going on behind the scenes what you can talk about legally um and I want to know about the employee situation most importantly uh honestly out of everything that's the one that upsets me the most is reading the employee comments and some of the stuff going on of like well just leave blah blah blah blah blah because you've got some super talented people I know that because of what WordPress is today uh so let's let's get it fixed come on the show Heather also Heather over uh at WP engine maybe Matt won't come on the show maybe you will come on the show and let's talk about it let's talk about your take on it maybe you are giving back or trying to give back and they won't let you and all this stuff there could be all kinds of stuff uncovered come on the show is the point and we've done it again Michael we went an hour on one topic when we have like 14 topics to talk about on the show we have a problem this is a new Problem by the way that's popped up again this used to be a problem for the show if you guys go back way back us to go like four hours per topic there was one episode where we l legitimately recorded for like four hours like that has happened that was years ago have this pattern coming back where we can't get through one topic because we've just got so much to say and I feel like we need to skip um some stuff but we don't we shouldn't skip everything we need to do we can't just have just one we need positive we need the gaming in here Jill can you give us can you give us something positive like in gaming because now I'm all mad Matt is going scorched Earth over here uh Michael hates the little squirrel probably because he's too nutty not true you need you need to stop saying that I love because it's too nutty come on that hilarious I didn't I I I had already turned off whatever you were saying because of your nonsense that I didn't hear you say that so poor peanut all right what you got first Jill okay so every decent person on the planet loves doggos good doggies and knows that all dogs are certified American Kennel Club good boys so our game this week takes our best friends off this planet and into a galactic adventure and you know they they'd probably want to sit at the window and and put their head out to Wi but you don't want to do that because they're in space yeah no Jill they had to leave the planet because Matt went scorched Earth so they so good boy Galaxy is described as a vibrant sci-fi platformer Adventure game where you help Maxwell the dog explore unfamiliar worlds make strange new friends and contend with mysterious forces by jumping shooting slicing shrinking warping and Drilling and the game has all kinds of features there's many jam-pack levels with multiple routes that are really fun and you can take can make 50 plus friends and collect their friendship cards and upgrade your blaster with special abilities also you can find hidden areas and take on a variety of boss battles and goodbye boy Galaxy is a really fun 2D Metroid Vania style platformer that has a nice story and and beautiful energetic old school artwork I just love the artwork and how vibrant it is it's so beautiful and the game comb combines platforming shooting action exploration and even a little puzzle solving with several mini games thrown in and I I love games that have little mini games you know in because it makes it so unexpected and it it just it's just great what was one of the first games Jill you remember where you could play a game inside a game do you remember like when you could go up to an arcade for the first time in a game or a console and you could actually I'm trying to think of games that did that but they've always made an impression on me when that happened where you could like they have like playing a game but you go up to an arcade in the game and then play that and there's like a little like you could have like a snake game or something yeah yeah or asteroids or something like that gosh yeah remember any game that ever did it and I loved every game that did it I remember QB cubert had some really fun Easter eggs in it that were kind of mini gamess there you go yeah um but yeah so this has little mini games not the ones I was talking about but yeah yeah so good boy Galaxy is only $24.99 on Steam and works great on the steam deck and supports our Linux Penguins out of the box Jill let's skip ahead and talk about a project that is named after Ryan okay so our tiip this week is to check out a lesser known privacy focused app called Ryan no it's called open snitch first of all I never snitch snitches end up in ditches and with stitches open snitch is like a new L interactive application firewall inspired by one you might know of have heard of little snitch open snitch actually features interactive Michael's High School name was little snitch little snitch yes you knew it was coming Michael you could stop it it was like in slow motion no I tried I tried you could see me you could see me unmute and start to try any so opens this features interactive outbound connections filtering blocking ads trackers or malware domains systemwide and the ability to configure a system firewell from the GUI using nftables which is awesome also configuration of input policy which which also allows inbound Services etc etc and managing multiple nodes from from a centralized gooey open snitch or otherwise known as Ryan features security information and event management integration as well why Jill what did I do first of all what did I do you know little I think this snitch over there I think this joke tip 100% is fair because apparently I'm little snitch and you're open snitch I don't know which one's worse is that a hacker name those are hacker names like Crash and Burn crash yeah yeah it's like um what was his name uh crash override that's what it was oh yeah but but but here's here's the thing the whole uh little snitch and open snitch is kind of good because in a way that little snitch is one of those ironic nicknames where it's like a little person you know they you call a big person little or tiny it kind of fits in that way yeah it does yes also the same thing for you too buddy because you're uh very close-minded so open snitch is that was really good Michael yeah look at you up in your checkers game oh you boy stop playing quidditch quit you should quit it Ryan you quit it first and uh one of the other cool tips for open snitch is that you can combine it with simple scripts to scan for open ports and keep your network security really tight and RPMs or Debs can be downloaded from the open snitch GitHub page listed in our show notes or installed from your distributions package manager this is a great little tool you need to check it out great little tip in there for the scripts as well uh big thank you to each and every one of you for supporting us by watching or listening to destination Linux however you do it we love your faces come join us in our Discord join in the conversation let us know what you think about the wp engine WordPress drama which side are you on or are you on neither side because we're kind of on neither side I feel like if you summed it up like we kind of see some mistakes on both sides there but I want to know what you all think um and if you want to support the show go to tux digital.com membership become a patron watch the show live we record every Wednesday and you can hear all kinds of shenanigans that never make it on the show yeah and even if you don't make it live that's okay because you still get the access to unedited versions of the show so even the like you you watch this show and you've if you've never been a patron and you're watching this show and you're like man these people these people are off they're they're off out of their minds or they're uh they've lost they're off their hinges corre or you're correct also but you have no idea how much more of that is on the unedited version it gets there is a lot of fun you're missing out on so go to tux.com membership and become a patron and you get a bunch of cool stuff including the patron only post show so if you do come live you can talk to us afterwards and make fun of how off the hinges that we are about why he hates Peanut the squirrel like I don't get it and also you can talk to Ryan about why he continuously to push push lies about my hatred of squirrels I agree it's very upsetting as you pushing lies about me it's very ridiculous so you can go to tux.com membership to do all of that and more and you can also go to tux.com store to get some awesome merch we have hats mugs t-shirts hoodies and so much more tux digital.com and make sure to check out all the amazing shows here on text digital that's right we have an entire network of shows to fill your whole week with geeky goodness head to Tex digital.com to keep those Linux Penguins marching everybody have a great week and remember the journey itself is just as important as the destination also the destination is a scorched Earth I was about to do the exact same joke no way yes I love it exact same joke I knew you were thinking that that was so funny oh man Matt's never coming on the not a chance there's no way Matt if you come on the show i' have mad respect uh for you after all of that yeah if if you're willing to deal with us after all this I mean agreed mad respect I mean yeah you can do it man so we we will be sending this for those who are watching we will be sending this to uh both of them to see if if they want to join the show yeah so thanks for watching the show everybody we'll see you next week and uh yeah, Full Court WordPress on WP Engine, Destination Linux, 01jem7e3b4mq5fvdnevt558afy.