Is Christianity Really the White Man’s Religion?  🔗 **Source:** [Is Christianity Really the White Man’s Religion?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9tt-9qvfUI) > [!note]+ Document Notes > > [!info] Generated analysis — not the author's words. Sections below are machine-written > > from the captured source. Only text inside `> [!quote]` blocks is verbatim from the author. > > Do not quote or attribute any other line to the named author. > --- > tags: [church-history, race-and-christianity, christian-supremacy, faith-deconstruction, black-theology, colonialism] > author: Christian A. Smith > source: YouTube — Holy Smoke, Cigars, and Spirituality (TFC Live) > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9tt-9qvfUI > date created: 2026-08-10 > --- > # 🏷️ Title: Is Christianity Really the White Man's Religion? > ## 🧭 Table of Contents > - [📝 Summary](#-summary) > - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) > - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) > - [📚 References](#-references) > - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) > - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) > - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) > - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) > - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) > - [❓ Questions](#-questions) > - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) > - [💡 Implications](#-implications) > - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) > - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) > - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) > - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) > - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) > - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) > ### 🔗 References > - Clip source: Jackie Hill Perry & Preston Perry's podcast, featuring Christian apologist Jerome Gay > - Brian Recker, ebook *Question Your Answers: A Deconstruction Survival Guide* > - Referenced: the "Slave Bible" (1807, missionary-edited Exodus omissions) > - Referenced: the Doctrine of Discovery (15th-century papal bulls) > ## 📝 Summary > - What happened: A three-person podcast panel (host Christian A. Smith, co-host "Rich Auntie," and guest Brian Recker, author of a deconstruction-survival ebook) reacts to a viral clip of apologist Jerome Gay arguing that Christianity is not "the white man's religion" — citing African participants at the Council of Nicaea (325 AD), whitewashed depictions of biblical figures, and a close reading of Ephesians 6:5 that distinguishes Paul's *doulos* (indentured servitude) from transatlantic chattel slavery. > - Why it matters: The panel partially agrees with Gay's history (no white people in the Bible; Augustine and many early bishops were African) but rejects his conclusion — that this history obligates Black Americans to remain Christian. They reframe the real target as "Christian supremacy" (the assumption that salvation requires Christian confession), which they argue historically *produced* white supremacy via the Doctrine of Discovery, not the reverse. > - Key stakeholders: Black Christians weighing deconstruction; apologists using church history to counter "white man's religion" claims; deconstruction communities; anyone doing pastoral or DevRel-adjacent work with faith-transition audiences. > - Risks and tradeoffs: The panel's own rhetorical style (mockery, "sunken place," "cooning") sharpens the point for an in-group audience but forecloses persuasion of the apologist camp; conversely Gay's framing ("good slavery," implicitly) is shown by the panel to slide toward minimizing chattel slavery once a text is treated as beyond critique. > - Bottom line: Both "Christianity is a white man's religion" and "Christianity was never white, so stay" are treated as oversimplifications; the panel's actual claim is that the *supremacy structure* (Christian-first, then white-first) is the object worth rejecting, independent of which historical figures were which race. > ## 📖 Main Content > - Core argument, pro-Gay position (as presented in the reacted-to clip): Christianity's Eurocentric image is a whitewashing artifact, not an origin fact — African theologians shaped Nicene Christianity, biblical figures (David, Moses, the "Prince of Egypt") were repainted white by later European art, and Paul's slavery language predates and differs from race-based chattel slavery, so leaving the faith over "white man's religion" rests on bad history. > - Core argument, panel's rebuttal: Agreeing that the *history* is more Afro-centric doesn't answer whether *lived, inherited American Christianity* — the version actually handed to Black Americans — has been "wielded as a weapon to keep certain people at the top of the hierarchy." The panel argues the deeper structure under Gay's argument is Christian supremacy (non-Christians are outside God's will, hell-bound), and that this structure, not race, is the actual mechanism of harm — with white supremacy following historically from it (Doctrine of Discovery → colonization → forced conversion → new post-conversion hierarchy needed once converts became "brothers in Christ," hence white supremacy as the next-generation sorting tool). > - Contested/uncertain claims: The panel's causal claim ("Christian supremacy created white supremacy") is asserted, not sourced with named historians in the clip; it is a coherent reading of the Doctrine of Discovery's role in colonization but is presented rhetorically rather than with citation. Similarly Gay's Ephesians 6:5 *doulos* argument is a real position in NT scholarship but is presented in the clip without engaging the counter-literature on how *doulos* passages were nonetheless the primary proof-texts American slaveholders used. > - Terms defined in-video: *doulos* (Paul's term, glossed as indentured servant rather than racial chattel slave); "Slave Bible" (a 1807 missionary edition that reportedly omitted roughly 90% of the Old Testament and most of Exodus, including the Exodus liberation narrative); Doctrine of Discovery (papal sanction for colonizing "pagan" nations); "faith of Jesus" vs. "faith in Jesus" (the panel's distinction between practicing Jesus's stated mission — Luke 4:18, good news to the poor, release for the prisoner — versus doctrinal confession as the marker of belonging). > ### 🗒️ Notes > #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9tt-9qvfUI&t=0) Cold open > - Panel previews its thesis with the "good genocides, good slavery" line — a warning that defending a text "at all costs" leads to defending the indefensible. > #### ⏱️ [00:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9tt-9qvfUI&t=47) Framing the clip > - Setup: some conclude "Christ is on the side of the oppressor" and leave the faith over it; the panel wants to affirm the underlying concern (whitewashing) while contesting the "walk away" conclusion being treated as automatically wrong. > #### ⏱️ [01:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9tt-9qvfUI&t=102) Show intro > - Host Christian A. Smith ("the heretic") opens *Holy Smoke, Cigars, and Spirituality* / TFC Live with co-host Rich Auntie and guest Brian Recker, explaining the episode was requested repeatedly by viewers reacting to Jerome Gay's clip on Jackie Hill Perry and Preston Perry's podcast. > #### ⏱️ [05:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9tt-9qvfUI&t=319) Gay's history and Ephesians 6:5 case > - Jerome Gay argues Council of Nicaea (325 AD) had African participants who "helped lay the foundation" of core Christian doctrine, and that Paul's *doulos* in Ephesians 6:5 refers to indentured servitude, written ~60 AD, long before the 1619 transatlantic slave trade — so applying it to chattel slavery is anachronistic. > #### ⏱️ [05:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9tt-9qvfUI&t=352) "You can't oppose white supremacy and use their hermeneutics" > - Gay's central rhetorical move: reading Ephesians 6:5 as endorsing chattel slavery means adopting the same interpretive method 19th-century enslavers used to justify slavery from scripture — so, per Gay, deconstructionists who make that reading are (in his framing) siding with the enslavers' hermeneutic. > #### ⏱️ [07:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9tt-9qvfUI&t=421) Panel pushback: "no context in which slavery is justifiable" > - Panel calls out the pattern of defending "a version of slavery" once a text is treated as inerrant, sharpening it into the cold-open line about "good genocides... good slavery." > #### ⏱️ [10:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9tt-9qvfUI&t=636) Where the panel agrees with Gay > - Panel affirms Christianity has been whitewashed: Augustine was African, many early bishops were African, "there are no w When your starting point is you will defend the text at all costs, you will end up defending some heinous that does not need to be defended. Sometimes there's good genocides, sometimes there's good slavery. >> Some have concluded that Christ is on the side of the oppressor and they have determined that, hey, this is a white man's religion, so [music] I'm leaving the faith. You're right about whitewashing because they did paint all the church theologians, all the African theologians white. I wanted to affirm their concern but disagree with their conclusion because the conclusion was to walk away from the faith. Y'all just over there kiken over some bull. I can't stand when you do not call a thing a thing. If you're so dense that you can't understand why a black American [music] would be like this is the white man's religion, you're in the sunken place. On the one hand, I do agree that Christianity has been whitewashed. There are no white people in the Bible. What where I would disagree with him, I think, is this idea that you then have to hold on to it because of that. >> The entire argument is built on the idea of Christian supremacy. If you're not a Christian, you're not in the will of God. Like, we can't let these deconstructionists leave the faith cuz they're going to go to hell. >> How about Jesus never tried to convert anybody or keep anybody in a religion? That was in his bag. >> I'm very, very careful about getting into debates with Christian apologists because you're talking from a perspective that Christianity is the end all beall. And I'm just like, you can't convince me that God is not bigger than a baby religion. All right. What's up? Welcome back to TFC Live. This is a recording of Holy Smoke, Cigars, and Spirituality. I am your host and I'm the heretic, Christian A. Smith. Um, we have a great show today. Uh, I have gotten this video sent to me so many times. It's from Jackie and Perry's uh, podcast. No, Jackie, what's what's her husband name? Somebody tell me. Jackie Preston. Jackie and Preston. And uh the first person that sent it to me, they were like, "Can you please talk about this?" And I was like, "Uh, you know, if I get it enough times, I'll talk about it." And then I happened to go through my DMs uh the other day and it was like message after message, please talk about this. Please talk about this. So, we gonna talk about it. I got Rich Auntie here with me and I got a special guest. You just heard his voice a moment ago. Brian Recker is with us. We got to give Brian a hand for joining us tonight. [applause] [cheering] All right. So, this is a clip from Jackie Hill Perry and Preston Perry's podcast. Uh, a Christian apologist named Jerome Gay is on here calling out deconstructionists and giving his take on, you know, >> I've met him actually. >> I've met Jerome. Sorry, [laughter] >> I want to know what the vibe was before. I need a little background context. >> Well, I was an evangelical pastor at the time, so I you know, we were we had a we were matching vibes, I [laughter] guess. >> Yeah. Yeah. There there's there's a backstory to this this Jerome thing. This I [clears throat] Jerome has been in my comments for years trying to get my attention, like trying to get me to debate, have a conversation, trying to get me somewhere, and it's like h you know. Uh, so I'm sure he's going to appreciate that he made it to the podcast today. [laughter] >> Oh Lord. Congratulations, Jerome. Enjoy the 5 seconds of fame. >> I can't wait to see it. I haven't seen this clip, I don't think. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, so he finally came across my path outside of him just being in my comments or trying to get somebody to get me to interface with him. but he actually had enough of an impact on the culture that it came back this way. So, here we go. Let's talk about it. Congratulations, Jerome. And then we'll get into breaking this down. I >> just want to talk about this idea that Christianity is the white man's religion. >> Well, some have concluded that Christ is on the side of the oppressor and they have determined that, hey, this is a white man's religion, so [music] I'm leaving the faith. You're right about whitewashing because they did paint all the church theologians, all the African theologians white. They made David white, Moses white, all these African. We might get Samson because he had locks, but other than that, the prince of Egypt. I said, "Why are they speaking British?" >> Yeah. I wanted to affirm their concern, but disagree with their conclusion because the conclusion was to walk away from the faith. So, there's a difference between white washing and white [music] man's religion. Now, when it gets to slavery, we have to deal with, hey, Ephesians 6:5, slaves, obey your masters, right? Paul uses the term dulos, which he's talking about a servant. So Paul has indentured servitude in mind. He wrote this around 60 AD in a Roman prison long before the transatlantic slave trade of 1619. So Paul does not have racebased cattle slavery in mind at the time the Holy Spirit has given him this revelation. He also talks about a different form in his letter to Timothy where he calls the ungodly who won't inherit the kingdom of God within that category are enslavers. There are two different ways that word is used. So [music] if we don't dig into biblical etmology, then we're now making an eternal decision to walk away from Jesus based on misinformation. Often >> times when people say humanity is a white man slavery, they have very poor [music] history. And so they try to point back to 325 AD, the council of Naria, they try to point back to these times in history and they just get the history just all wrong. do think that they critique like [music] the 17 1800s. But then if you just go back to 325 AD, [music] these were African men who helped lay the foundation of what we believe and why we believe it and even fought for it at the council not seeing 325 AD. [music] This is my challenge to black deconstructionists. You can't oppose white supremacy and use their hermeneutics at the same time. M. >> So if you believe that Paul had the enslavement and degradation of black people in mind, you're now agreeing and affirming how white enslavers use that verse against black people. So now you're actually siding with their hermeneutic on the text. You can't have it both ways. >> So if you just did a little homework on it, then you were now finding yourself siding with the white supremacist based on their view of the text. Which is why we got to know the slave Bible. They removed 38 chapters from the book of Exodus. I wonder why cuz it's something about freedom and [laughter] walking through a red sea. >> I I I hate how Well, it's just so funny how they always end up defending a version of slavery when they do this. Like, >> thank you. >> Like there's an okay kind like l like no that's that was like slavery light. That was like the good kind of slavery. Like [laughter] do you hear yourself right now? >> It's so wild. Like why do they always do that? Like, no. Well, slavery was different back then. Like, there is no >> Were they slaves? Hey, I have a question. Were they slaves? >> There is no context in which slavery is justifiable. Like, that's the problem. When you when you approach these conversations with the predetermined, the predetermined conclusion that the Bible is always right. Then you have to justify everything you see there, even when it's unjustifiable. >> Sometimes there's good genocides. Sometimes there's good slavery. Sometimes it's okay to kill babies. Like, >> you see what I'm saying? >> No. Like, no. >> Somebody's gonna clip that, Brian. Be >> right, [laughter] >> right? >> Don't you don't you do me dirty like that, Christian. >> It won't be me. [laughter] >> Yeah, of course. Paul didn't have cattle slavery in mind. Paul did not have race based. There was no concept. Race was a construct, a social construct that came much later. I don't even think Paul wrote Ephesians. Like, why are we But like when when you your like you said it perfectly. When your starting point is you will defend the text at all cost, you will end up defending some heinous [ \_\_ ] that does not need to be defended. >> Yeah. And and and that right there deserves something. So, I don't know how many churches you've been in where they speak in tongues, but get ready. This going to be a wild night. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Rashanti, what came up for you? Cuz I There's so many different different ways. There's a lot. There's a lot there. >> First of all, I'm sorry. I'm trying. This is your platform, so I'm going to be respectful. >> You going to be respectful? >> I'm tired of the Lavenders. Okay. I'm tired. I am because I wanna like I want to go slam off right now about the pairing because it's like >> I talk about this all the time. This has come up before. >> I hate when people chuckle over some [ \_\_ ] like y'all just over there kiking over some [ \_\_ ] You think because of boooo music bunded and you're in agreement with each other that this is something profound for black people to understand? Absolutely not. I don't give a [ \_\_ ] if Paul was talking about shat slavery. You know who was the founding fathers. You know who was the slave owners. You know who was the plantation masters. So what the [ \_\_ ] are you talking about? I can't stand when you do not call a thing a thing. An oppressor is an oppressor. And if you're so dense that you can't understand why a person of AfricanAmerican descent, a black American would be like, "Fuck Christianity. This is the white man's religion." You're in the sunken place and you're a character in the movie Get Out. So, I don't [ \_\_ ] with you anyway. That's how I feel about that because it's it's it's a continued reminder that their bag is white and colonized >> because you're going to be the main ones. I just think I had to stop watching The Handmaid's Tail, right? I had to stop watching it because it was too it was it was too real and it was too violent. As a queer black woman, I was like, "Uh, this [ \_\_ ] could happen tomorrow." So to be the mouthpiece of the thing that will kill you when it obtains its agenda is crazy work. Like you think you're the good [ \_\_ ] and you still going to get lynched. >> That's how I feel about the parrots and that other [ \_\_ ] is nobody. [music] [clears throat] >> Oh, sorry. I didn't I I cleared my throat and then it made me big. I don't >> I thought you was about to say something. >> I could say so. I could say something. >> Yeah, I I thought you was coming in hot, so I was like, let me just go ahead and set them up there because on the one hand, I do agree that Christianity has been whitewashed. Like it's certainly true that there is more black history like you know, Augustine was African. Many of those early bishops were African. Uh the there are no white people in the Bible. the Bible is mostly about colonized, oppressed, marginalized brown people. That's that's true. What where I would disagree with him >> Hey, real quick and we'll get back to it. My new ebook, Question Your Answers: A Deconstruction Survival Guide, is available now. If you've been doing this journey, questioning your faith, rethinking what you were taught, trying to figure out what you actually believe, this book was written for you. It's your survival guide for the road ahead. The ebook also comes with the Ask Christian AI reading companion. So, you know, you can process the book with a little help from me on demand. It's like having me in your pocket. The link is in the caption or you can scan the QR code on the screen. All right, let's get back into the show. >> I think is this idea that you then have to hold on to it because of that. And I think because the reality is black Americans right now you we don't just bring them to hundreds of years ago or even thousands of years ago and tell them what Christianity was. They inherited a particular form of Christianity that was used against them in this country. We have American Christianity for the last few hundred years has been wielded as a weapon to keep certain people at the top of the hierarchy and certain people at the bottom. It is not neutral. We don't come to Christianity from a position of neutrality. So, if you feel so called as to say, I want to reclaim a an older, more ancient, blacker form of Christianity, like more power to you. But if you also are like, hey, actually, Christianity has been mostly [ \_\_ ] and evil in this timeline that I exist in, and therefore it is no good to me. Like, absolutely. That's also something that we should not say, no, no, no, you have to hold on to it because look, there was this black guy that they didn't tell you about, and actually David was probably black. Like that what what is that? What do I [ \_\_ ] care? what color like like the the Christians are in this country 87% of white evangelicals gave us Donald Trump. So, how about that's good enough reason because this is the world we live in. [clears throat] >> All that to say, like I personally I still identify as Christian because I I like to say, hey, I don't want the worst people in this country being the ones who get to define Jesus from me. So, I'm going to make it what it what what I think it should be, but I'm not your kind of, you know, not you, but like everybody's kind of Christian. You know what I mean? But like that's not everybody's journey. I know that I'm weird for that. Like most of my friends aren't Christians, actually, and I don't need them to be Christians. >> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. It's there there's so much here. Y'all have already hit on so much of it. Um, I think I like to talk about the infrastructure that holds up these arguments because if we understand the infrastructure that holds up the argument, then the argument you you understand how the argument is built on an unstable foundation. So the entire argument is built on the idea of Christian supremacy. [clears throat] >> Like if you're not a Christian, you're not in the will of God. That's the That's the the assumption >> that they don't even say it in the video. It's just underneath the surface of everything they say. >> If you're not a Christian, you've made an eternal decision >> to walk away from the faith and walk away from Jesus. The threat of hell, which is funny because we're sitting here having a conversation with the author of the book about hell, right? I'm wearing a slippery slope t-shirt. You know why the slippery slope is a thing? because they've already embedded the idea of hell into our minds. So when they tell us you better be careful, that's the slippery slope, the slope down to where? >> Hell. >> It's a it's a threat of hell. And that's always underneath all of their arguments. >> What What argument do you have for me when I don't care about hell? If if you take hell out of the equation, now what? My life is better. My skin is clearer. I got less stress since I left. I I mean, my quality of life improved and all you got for me is hell. >> You better testify, man of God. >> You see what I'm saying? Like, why? Why? Why? So, it's it's the it's the infrastructure that holds up the argument. >> They don't even need to say it. It's just assumed, you know? >> Yes. It's a basic assumption of the argument. So people are listening to what he's saying and not listening to what he hasn't said that holds up what he's saying. And it's a Christian supremacist perspective that if you're not a Christian, you're outside of the will of God. Like we can't let these deconstructionists leave the faith cuz they're going to go to hell. And so if you want to talk about history, then don't just go back to 325 AD. Don't don't just go back to the time of Jesus. Go back to before Jesus. Go back to West Africa before Christianity was a religion. What were we doing? Did we not know God? Did we not have a a relationship with the divine? Before Christianity existed. So if you want to talk about talk about history, THEN TALK ABOUT HISTORY THAT THAT precedes European colonization, that precedes the the creation of the Christian church, that preeds the times of the of of of the New Testament when Jesus walked the earth, that precedes all of that because there's history that goes beyond that, too. and we existed and we had spirituality and we had a relationship with the divine and we didn't need Christianity to connect us. That has BEEN THE POINT THE WHOLE TIME. >> YEAH, >> that's been the point the whole time. You can you can connect to God through Jesus, but we connected before Jesus existed. >> Bro, how do we give you one of those reactions? Cuz I feel like you only have the [clears throat] reaction. I want to give you the tongues and the [ \_\_ ] like the you know like >> [music] >> Yeah, bro. That's real. And like how about Jesus never tried to convert anybody or keep anybody in a religion? That wasn't his bag. Like that's not what he did at all. They It is all fear-based. And it doesn't sound [clears throat] it like if you're if you're so accustomed to hearing this. It is the assumption and it you got you got to this in what you just said, but it's so obvious to me that this robs you of a real spirituality because you're spending all your time. They think they're talking about spirituality. All they're actually talking about is keeping people believing the the approved thing. That has nothing to do with growing in love. That has nothing to do with loving your neighbor. That has nothing to do with loving yourself. That has nothing to do with loving God. Just stay Christian. Don't be a Christian because look, there's these all these reasons that you didn't even think about to stay Christian. It's like, what are we talking about? Where's the fruit of the spirit in this? >> Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Another praise break. GLORY. [screaming] GLORY. GLORY. >> [music] >> See this this this why I got to be careful about you know these conver because the that's the reason I'm very very careful about getting into debates with Christian apologists because we're not even talking on the same plane like you're you're talking from a perspective that Christianity is the end all beall and I'm just like God is so much bigger than Jesus. >> And you you can't convince me otherwise. You can't convince me that God is not bigger than a baby religion. What? >> Talk about that. >> When you look at when you look at spiritual traditions throughout the world, so many traditions existed before Christianity did. And people lived great lives. They connected to the spirit, to the divine. So it's like and and and also so again this is why I think question your answers is an important book because I talk about binary thinking and Christian supremacy um it is an expression of binary thinking because it's Christianity or bust. >> So so it's like you can't find value in multiple spiritual paths. It's one right way. >> Christianity is the one right way. particularly the brand of Christianity that I teach to you because there are so many different expressions of Christianity, but they got a very specific brand. So, not that black liberation stuff that's about people getting free and being and being delivered and and and liberated. But no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You need to do this John Piper reformed theology, John MacArthur [ \_\_ ] with Tony Evans and Philip Anthony Mitchell and all these [ \_\_ ] [ \_\_ ] >> aka Cooning. Christianity definitely does have this Christian supremacy problem though because when I for so I call myself a Christian still and I will often have to clarify I'm the kind of Christian that doesn't think that everybody needs to be a Christian and for a lot of people they'll say well then you're not a Christian because to them Christian supre like Christianity equals Christian supremacy unless in other words you believe in the superiority of Christianity you're not a real Christian it's in it's like essential to what Christianity is to supremacist about it. And I reject that premise because I don't see that in Jesus at all. I think essential to the ministry of Jesus was rejecting every form of supremacy. I didn't see him calling people to any particular religion. To me, the whole the kingdom of God, that was the essential message of Jesus. And what that means to me is undoing every system of domination to say the world can be different. Actually undoing these hierarchies of supremacy and dominist mutuality and in communion with one another. that actually that was what Jesus was trying to do. And so to me, I want to have a Christianity that is my universalism for me is essential to my Christianity, not supremacy. But that is just not Christian is a major branding issue with with the supremacy. It's just really essential to it for the way most people see it. >> Say something cuz I'm I'm this is why I wasn't going to talk about this [ \_\_ ] cuz it gonna piss me off. >> And I [clears throat] look the comments is like Christian's pissed off here for it. Um, this is like one of the hills that I I would die on. What kind of what we're talking about brought me to the thought like at the end of the day, I think the Perry's are so dangerous because there is the reality that many if not most black Christians are unintentionally um specifically um diaspor diasporic Christians like anybody who was somewhere where the [ \_\_ ] stopped, right? Um, we're globally participating in a Christianity that in and of itself is rooted in synratism, right? It's not what they say Christianity is. It's why your your grandparents have altars in the house, you have the Bibles. It's why if you go if you if you're in Southern California and you go to stores, you see altars. It's why you see um Santaia and it's like Christian like it's like that's Christian but is it and at the end of the day I think a lot of people are unwilling to unwind that part of them because it's too terrifying so they'll just participate in the Christianity that is Christian supremacy when all along like what you're talking about the youngness of Christianity baby when I saw that world religions chart and Christianity was like in vitro Bro, [laughter] I was like, "Girl, what? You are dumb. You done just hooklin and finger and [ \_\_ ] You did not know." Cuz I like I talk about this all the time. I remember being in college and we had to do like a a philosophy class. And I remember in my religiousness that like we had to read the epics epic of Sanjara and it's like an African creation myth. And I was like, "Wait a minute, this came before Christianity, but this sounds like Genesis." And I was like the whole class I was speaking in tongues saying the Lord rebuke you. I will not be bound by this African teaching. But that's because of the of me. That was the the 12 years of programming. K through eight Christian school abecca curriculum 9 through 12 Catholic parochial school. We lighting candles for for the saints. It was all mixed in. It's been synratism all along. >> And God every part of that. And the moment that I was willing to see that God was bigger than the boxes that I was handed and that my lunacy was actually because I was abandoning myself and abandoning the love that God gave me initially for religion. That's when I got free. So, this whole conversation is giving me like everything I need because both of you, even though, like I said, we're all different presentations of humanity, different lived experiences, different upbringings, but there are so many parallels in our path to the divine. And I think that's the beauty of being humans and having a spiritual experience. It's religion is so binding, but spirituality is so freeing. So, we got to get free by any means necessary. >> Yeah. Yeah. And Brian, I want to hear what you got to say. But first, I got to let her get this. [screaming] Thank you, >> How do you have so many of those? [laughter] Like, you got the library, bro. >> We just build them up over time, man. We like to have fun while we out here. >> I love it, man. I'm having the best time. No, I was I was just thinking about how one of the real ironies about them re saying that they reject white supremacy, but that that that you don't have to reject Christianity, and ultimately they're holding on to Christian supremacy while saying that they reject white supremacy. And one of the real ironies there is that where do you think white supremacy came from? Historically, you don't have white supremacy without Christian supremacy. Christian supremacy created white supremacy. Um, white supremacy actually is not that old compared to Christian supremacy. It was the project of colonization which was given a uh a Christian stamp of approval via the doctrine of discovery. The papal decree that said yes, God wants us to colonize pagan nations because of Christian supremacy. In other words, those pagans are going to hell anyway. Therefore, you know, this colonization and conquest might be a touch of genocide, too. maybe some raping and pillaging, but here's the thing. They're all going to hell anyway. So ultimately, we're going to Christianize them. So even if some bad [ \_\_ ] happens to them along the way, a good thing is ultimately going to happen to them because we are going to bring the Christian civilization to them. That is Christian supremacy. But then they got into a pickle because once they started colonizing these places, once which were mostly black and brown places, then they started converting them to Christianity. Then all of a sudden, oh my God, these people we colonized. They're our brothers and sisters in Christ. We're supposed to, according to the Bible, treat them as equals because in Christ there is no slave nor free. They're they're supposed to be our equals. So they had to come up with something else besides Christian supremacy. In order to keep them at the bottom of the hierarchy, they had to invent white supremacy. As these people that they colonized became Christian, they had to come up with another reason to subjugate them. And so Christian supremacy really just predated white supremacy. That was a clean handoff. You don't they're connected. And so if you want to reject white supremacy, but hold on to Christian supremacy, you're just going to get more supremacies. That's what it does. You got to reject it all together. [music] We're going to do this all night. Okay. We're going to do Let me try to calm down. >> Let me try to calm down. >> You question the spirit. Listen, there there there is there's so much here and I think what it comes down to for me is my primary concern is how do we get to what is good for the poor, the prisoner, the sick, and the oppressed. If we if we're saying we're here to follow Jesus, that was the mission statement of his entire ministry. The spirit of the Lord is upon me and has anointed me to preach good news to the poor, release for the prisoner, healing for the sick, and liberation for the oppressed. So, how can we center our conversation around the faith of Jesus instead of faith in Jesus? Because if we seek to practice the faith of Jesus, now our conversation has to look different than how do we keep people Christian, but it has to shift to how do we keep people safe. That's the faith of Jesus. So that's why these conversations with with people or or the you know that's why I haven't had a conversation with Jerome Gay because I don't want to argue Christian doctrine. How how do we create a world where we're more concerned about people's safety than their Christian confession? Because you got a whole lot of people who are confessing Christ to their own detriment. So the conversation just it falls flat immediately because there are basic assumptions happening in this exchange that I don't agree with. So like I don't agree with the premise of what they're saying, let alone what they're saying. I don't agree with the basic assumptions they bring to the conversation, let alone agreeing with what they said in the conversation. So I, you know, Yeah. Y'all got anything else before we move on from this? >> I think I'm spent. I I do um [laughter] >> Yeah, it is interesting when when you hear them wanting to point out that the Bible is not white people because it Yeah, there's something there to agree with. And I think that can be confusing to people who have a liberationist mindset who who reject white supremacy. You hear a conversation like that. Oh, these are not white supremacists. They want to hold on to their Christianity for the right reasons. But yeah, I hate how misleading that can be. >> Very it's it's very misleading. It's very it's very like heteronormative Christian supremacist black liberation. It's like you can you can participate in black liberation as long as you're a heterosexual Christian, but everybody else you going to hell. So we need to focus first on you not going to hell so you can be a part of the in group and then we can talk about black things then we can talk about cuz look even with St. Augustine shout out to St. Augustine but I'm sorry he was also working within the confines of the empire. >> Yes. >> That's why a lot of his doctrines were kind of like because he was also working in the service of the empire. >> Yeah. Yeah. And when somebody disagreed or was a heretic I mean he went after them. He he he approved really of persecution of any kind of dissenting belief. >> And ultimately that's the fruit of of this kind of supremacist thing too is like there's really no room for difference. There's no room for disagreement. There's no room for different perspectives. Um they want a world where everybody's Christian like what like just just look at the history of what Christendom has has brought us. Do we really think that's going to be a good world? Like what evidence do you have that a world where everybody's Christian is gonna be a Why would that even be a desirable thing for you? Especially honestly if you're black like that's >> I don't like guys are you paying attention? You guys really like what are you fighting for here exactly? [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Well, they're they're fighting for for their redemption. And so I I'm not going to I'm not going to belabor the point, but I think that there is a disassociation that happens when you take the party line of um this type of Christianity. There's that dying to self, right? >> Um there's that picking up your cross and following Christ. And I think at the end of the day, what stood out to me that I wanted to bring up was what Brian said. Everything for me at this phase in my life is about fruit. What is your life? What is the fruit of your ministry? Is it misery? Is it suppression? Is it joy? Is it Galatians 5:22 through 23? But the fruit of the spirit is, you know, those kinds of things are what is important to me. And it's really it's really my lip, which brings us back to the larger point that you were making. How how do we move on? How do where do we go from here? We go to the greatest commandment because that is what the teacher taught. Um that is what the teacher lived. And if we would ever get to a point where we love our neighbor as ourselves, that really would be a display of how we love God. Because at the end of the day, I'm not convinced that any of those people love themselves. And so if I'm not convinced you love yourself, you playing in symbols and I'm not listening to you because at the end of the day, your fruit is going to lead me down a path of destruction and bondage because you're still in this place of trying to prove yourself to the God in the sky that you've been taught, which is specifically a white supremacist religion. I don't identify as a Christian anymore. [music] I mean, on a good day, I might. I'm going to keep it real. But the thing for me is that >> Hold up. There's more where that came from. [music] Hit the link in the show notes and join us on Patreon for the rest of this conversation and other conversations like it. Until then, I'll see you in these internet streets. Peace out. [music], Is Christianity Really the White Man’s Religion?, YouTube, 01kzp0pc6hxjnk4cgmzf4wp3p9.