Israel, Iran, and End Times Prophecy  ## Metadata - Author: [[The Convocation Unscripted]] - Full Title: Israel, Iran, and End Times Prophecy - Category: #articles - Document Note: --- tags: - #theology - #evangelicalism - #dispensationalism - #politics - #race - #ChristianZionism - #AmericanHistory - #media-literacy - #logicalfallacies - #DARVO - #DEIB - #SEO Author: Jamar Tisby, Diana Butler Bass, Kristen Kobes Du Mez Source: [Israel, Iran, and End Times Prophecy (Convocation Unscripted YouTube)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS04r6y7fXU) Reference: Full episode transcript date created: 2025-07-01 13:00 --- # Israel, Iran, and End Times Prophecy ## Table of Contents: - [📝 Summary](#📝-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#📖-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#🗒️-notes) - [📖 References](#📖-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#🗣️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#📰-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#✅-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#🧪-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#📊-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#❓-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#🔮-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#💡-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#🧠-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#📊-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#🌍-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#✅-logical-validity) - [🔍 DARVO Analysis](#🔍-darvo-analysis) - [🔍 SEO Evaluation](#🔍-seo-evaluation) - [🎯 Conclusion](#🎯-conclusion) --- ## 📝 Summary This episode of *Convocation Unscripted* explores the intersection of U.S. foreign policy (especially under the Trump administration), evangelical end times theology (notably dispensationalism), Christian Zionism, and their implications for race, American identity, and contemporary human rights. The hosts—historians Jamar Tisby, Diana Butler Bass, and Kristen Kobes Du Mez—analyze how popular theology shapes geopolitics and domestic policy, and highlight the pervasiveness of end times narratives in American culture. The conversation traces historical roots, cultural transmission (books, media, church culture), and the sociopolitical fallout of deeply held religious beliefs about Israel, the apocalypse, and “the enemy.” --- ## 📖 Main Content ### 🗒️ Notes - **Episode Format & Intent** - Unscripted discussion among historians on religion, culture, and politics - Raw, real-time conversation—no preparation, candid perspectives - **US Policy, Israel & Iran** - Trump administration's aggressive stance in Middle East (e.g., bombing Iran) mirrors certain theological expectations in the evangelical community - Theology, especially dispensationalist frameworks, is inseparable from policy and public reaction - **Dispensationalism Explained** - Divides history into eras/covenants; current era viewed as "final" or "end times" - End times belief fuels activism to align society with specific biblical interpretations (e.g., Seven Mountains Mandate, Christian nationalism) - **Transmission of Beliefs** - Not limited to churches—books, films (e.g., *Left Behind*, *Late Great Planet Earth*), and pop culture play outsized roles - Many have absorbed beliefs “secondhand,” without formal theological education - **Biblical Language & Geopolitics** - American evangelicals and journalists often use biblical names/frames for modern events - This shapes perceptions and policies—e.g., uncritical support for Israel - **Biblical Literalism & Political Claims** - Politicians (e.g., Ted Cruz) invoke scripture to justify US-Israel support but lack depth in biblical context/application - Literal readings of “Israel” in the Bible mapped directly onto modern nation-state - **Instrumental Christian Zionism** - Support for Israel is often not about Jews/Judaism per se but is instrumental—seen as necessary for prophecy fulfillment and the return of Jesus - Raises issues of anti-Semitism: Jews/Israel treated as a “means to an end” - **Race & Representation** - Racialized depictions of “white Jesus” in eschatological art reflect deeper American cultural biases - Dispensationalism’s popularity is historically linked with post–Civil War anxieties, Jim Crow, and 20th-century racial politics - **Fundamentalism & Purity Culture** - Dispensationalism fuses with fundamentalism and “purity” themes (sexual, racial, doctrinal) to shape American evangelicalism - **Modern Human Rights & Policy** - Evangelical end times beliefs have direct effects on real-world issues: human rights in Gaza, immigration, domestic policy - Trump-era immigration enforcement (e.g., abductions, ICE, Supreme Court decisions) discussed as “moral injury” - **Moral Injury & Societal Trauma** - Constant “fresh horrors” (policy, violence, rhetoric) lead to collective trauma and moral numbness - The show urges critical engagement and empathy, even amidst exhaustion - **Alternative Models of Humanity** - Examples of progressive politics (e.g., Zoran Mandami’s NYC mayoral campaign) contrasted as hope-filled alternatives - The hosts close on a call for unity, empathy, and moral courage --- ## 📖 References - [Convocation Unscripted: Israel, Iran, and End Times Prophecy (YouTube)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS04r6y7fXU) - *Fundamentalism and American Culture* by George Marsden - *The Late Great Planet Earth* by Hal Lindsey - *Left Behind* series by Tim LaHaye & Jerry B. Jenkins - Scofield Reference Bible - Substacks and published writings by Diana Butler Bass and Jamar Tisby --- ## 🗣️ Paraphrase 1. **On Instrumental Support for Israel** - *Original*: "Support for the Jews is not because it’s a good thing for Christians and Jews to have inner religious relations ... it’s instrumentalism—that is, there’s two reasons why the people in this worldview support ... Jews ... One is because they want a blessing ... The second is this idea that if the Jews are returned ... and the temple is rebuilt and all these things happen then Jesus is going to come again." - *Paraphrase*: Christians supporting Israel often do so not out of a genuine desire for interfaith relationship, but for personal and eschatological gain. They believe backing Israel will bring blessings and speed up the return of Jesus, treating Jewish people as tools for their own religious ends. 2. **On Media and Theological Framing** - *Original*: "Biblical imagination was being imposed on current events very subtly but very effectively for their audience who, you know, knows their Bible stories." - *Paraphrase*: News coverage often overlays biblical narratives onto present-day situations, subtly influencing audiences familiar with scripture to interpret political developments through a religious lens. --- ## 📰 Newsletter **From the Desk of the WordPress Community:** Hey friends! This week’s web hot topic isn’t a plugin or theme—it's a look at how faith, geopolitics, and media shape public discourse. If you’ve ever wondered why “End Times” language shows up in policy debates or how pop culture influences religious views, the latest Convocation Unscripted is a must-watch. The hosts, all historians, untangle how evangelical end times theology drives everything from U.S. foreign policy to race relations (yes, even the way “white Jesus” pops up in art). Meanwhile, new faces like Zoran Mandami in NYC politics show how hope, humanity, and unity can lead the way—something our open source and WordPress communities can always use more of. In plugin news: Don’t miss the accessibility updates coming to WordPress 6.4, and check out new tools for onboarding contributors (like the Open Collective for sustainable funding). As always, your feedback helps shape the community—keep those ideas and pull requests coming! Stay connected. Stay empathetic. And don’t be afraid to question the “way it’s always been”—that’s how progress happens. [Watch the episode](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS04r6y7fXU) --- ## ✅ Action Items - **For Open Source Advocacy:** - Highlight how dominant cultural narratives (like end times theology) can affect contributor engagement and decision-making in tech communities. - Emphasize the need for critical media literacy in onboarding and training, to avoid uncritically absorbing “received wisdom.” - Encourage projects to examine whose voices and values shape their cultures—fostering transparency and inclusivity. - Use this episode as a case study in how historical context and cultural transmission influence both religious and open source movements. - **For OSPO (Open Source Program Office) Goals:** - Model the podcast’s approach—invite multiple perspectives, foster unscripted dialogue, and contextualize current events within their historical and social frameworks. - Continue to merge educational practices with technology, leveraging storytelling to onboard and retain contributors. - Promote sustainable, inclusive community structures that are mindful of history and alert to moral and ethical challenges. - Encourage regular “critical consumption” of project lore and norms; avoid replicating exclusionary or harmful practices. --- ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Increased consumption of religious pop culture directly correlates with the politicization of faith in public life. - Instrumental religious support for geopolitical entities leads to diminished genuine interfaith engagement. - Exposure to racially homogeneous religious imagery (e.g., “white Jesus”) reinforces exclusionary social and political attitudes. ### 📊 Methodology - **Qualitative Content Analysis**: Study sermons, media, and literature for recurring eschatological themes. - **Survey Research**: Assess beliefs and attitudes among various denominational and political groups. - **Historical Analysis**: Map the spread of dispensationalism using primary sources (e.g., Scofield Bibles, bestseller lists). - **Experimental**: Test the impact of diverse versus homogeneous religious imagery on participants' empathy and policy preferences. ### ❓ Questions - How do religious narratives influence national and international policies? - In what ways does pop culture “catechize” the public more effectively than formal religious education? - What role does race play in the construction and transmission of American Christian eschatology? - How can communities (faith-based or open source) intentionally disrupt exclusionary narratives? ### 🔮 Future Research - Deeper comparative analysis of eschatological beliefs and policy in non-US contexts - Longitudinal studies on how exposure to apocalyptic pop culture affects political participation - Examination of DEIB outcomes in communities shaped by strong theological or ideological “purity” cultures ### 💡 Implications - Broadening religious and cultural literacy in education and community onboarding can counter harmful “received wisdom.” - Promoting multi-racial, multi-faith, and multi-perspective engagement will strengthen community resilience—whether in tech or theology. - More transparent, historically informed leadership reduces risk of moral injury and exclusion in organizations. --- ## 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment - **Readability**: Estimated at Grade 14–16 (college level); sophisticated vocabulary and sentence structure. - **Visual Learners**: The episode references visual aids (dispensationalist charts), but the transcript lacks imagery; recommend using timelines, infographics, and visual timelines for clarity. - **Aural Learners**: Podcast format is ideal; recommend supplementary audio summaries and transcripts. - **Verbal Learners**: Rich discussion, abundant analogies; could enhance with more written guides or glossaries. - **Physical Learners**: No kinesthetic elements present; suggest hands-on activities (e.g., creating visual “maps” of theological history). - **Logical Learners**: Arguments are historically and logically structured, but would benefit from flowcharts or logic diagrams. - **Social Learners**: Panel discussion models social learning; encourage study groups or forum discussions. - **Solitary Learners**: Reflection is modeled in personal stories; recommend journaling prompts. - **Naturalistic Learners**: No environmental context; could compare “tribal” belonging to natural ecosystems for added relevance. --- ## 📊 Accessibility Assessment - **Screen Reader Compatibility**: Not directly assessable for the spoken content; transcripts should use semantic HTML and provide alt-text for any embedded images. - **Keyboard Navigation**: N/A for audio; ensure any accompanying webpage or notes are keyboard-friendly. - **Contrast and Readability**: Depends on implementation of accompanying materials; maintain high contrast and simple font choices. - **Text Resizing**: Use responsive design for web versions; transcripts should reflow cleanly. --- ## 🌍 DEIB Assessment - **Cultural Relevance**: Offers perspectives rooted in American evangelicalism, but would benefit from more international voices. - **Inclusive Language**: Generally neutral and inclusive, but technical theological terms could be defined for wider accessibility. - **Neurodiversity Support**: Conversation is segmented by timestamps, which aids focus; recommend breaking text into more digestible chunks for clarity. - **Representation**: Panel is diverse in gender, less so in race; encourage including more voices from Jewish, Muslim, and other perspectives. - **Psychological Safety**: Tone is empathetic and seeks to “humanize the other”; explicit content warnings for trauma would be beneficial. --- ## ✅ Logical Validity **Strong Reasoning:** - Sound historical analysis of how theological ideas change over time (e.g., tracing dispensationalism’s rise, [36:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS04r6y7fXU&t=2208)) - Valid critique of instrumental Christian Zionism (uses deductive and causal reasoning) - Nuanced distinction between anti-Semitism and Christian Zionism ([28:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS04r6y7fXU&t=1680)) **Weaknesses / Fallacies:** - Occasional **Appeal to Emotion** (“fresh hell,” “moral injury”), though used for rhetorical emphasis rather than to mislead - **Hasty Generalization**: Some claims about “evangelicals” or “right-wing” groups could be more specific or caveated - **Strawman**: No deliberate misrepresentation, but sometimes complex positions are summarized simply (e.g., critics of Israel support) - **Bandwagon**: Claims about “everyone” reading *Left Behind* would benefit from hard data **Tone of Voice**: Collegial, candid, at times wry; seeks to “de-mystify” and invite critical reflection. Balanced between analysis and empathy. **Suggestions**: - Where broad claims are made, add specific examples or statistics. - Further distinguish between different evangelical and political subgroups. - More direct engagement with counterarguments (especially from Israeli/Jewish or Muslim perspectives). --- ## 🔍 DARVO Analysis - **Deny**: There is no overt denial of criticism or shifting of blame by the hosts. In fact, they emphasize critical self-examination and urge the audience not to “just believe.” - **Attack**: The tone is critical of harmful ideologies and policies, but not personally attacking individuals except for strong criticism of Trump’s actions (described as chaotic, “narcissistic megalomaniac”). - **Reverse Victim and Offender**: The episode exposes, rather than employs, this tactic—highlighting how Christian Zionist arguments often frame Christians as “under attack” and use this to justify aggressive policy. - **Emotional Cues**: Empathy, concern, fatigue, and occasional exasperation dominate; their critique of “moral injury” and “trauma” signals awareness of harm rather than minimizing it. **Summary**: The content is vigilant for DARVO tactics in others (especially in politics/media) but does not deploy them itself. Hosts model transparency and critical self-reflection, avoiding the rhetorical traps they critique. --- ## 🔍 SEO Evaluation - **Keywords**: Strong on primary terms (Israel, Iran, prophecy, evangelicalism, dispensationalism, Christian Zionism, end times) - **Meta Description**: Missing in transcript; any blog post should include a concise meta with core keywords - **Title Tag**: Effective and descriptive; would benefit from inclusion of “Christian Zionism” or “Evangelicalism” for search relevance - **Headers**: Structured via timestamps and subtopics; transcript could use more hierarchical H2/H3 subheads for clarity - **Content Length**: Well over 2,000 words—ideal for in-depth analysis - **Internal/External Links**: Refers to primary sources, major books, and relevant media; could be improved with more links to contemporary commentary and research - **URL Structure**: N/A for transcript; ensure blog URLs are concise and keyword-rich - **Image Optimization**: Not directly applicable; recommend alt-text for episode thumbnails, charts - **Mobile Optimization**: Not directly testable, but markdown and podcast formats are mobile-friendly - **User Engagement**: Encourages sharing, discussion, and further reading - **Schema Markup**: Recommend PodcastEpisode and Article schema for increased visibility - **Social Sharing**: Podcast is cross-promoted on Substack, YouTube, and social platforms; recommend Open Graph tags for rich previews --- ## 🎯 Conclusion This *Convocation Unscripted* episode provides a sweeping, deeply contextualized look at how American evangelical end times theology intersects with politics, media, and race. The hosts illuminate the cultural mechanics behind Christian Zionism and dispensationalism, exposing their real-world effects—from Middle East policy to immigration and domestic human rights. Through lively, honest, and sometimes weary conversation, they urge listeners to adopt a posture of critical curiosity and empathy, rejecting simplistic narratives and embracing a more complex, humane vision for both faith and public life. The discussion is a masterclass in applied history for anyone in community leadership, open source governance, or faith-based advocacy. --- - Summary: Religion is always part of the story--even when it comes to U.S. foreign policy. Trump's decision to bomb nuclear sites in Iran, an action taken after Israel's military actions in the nation, are not simply geopolitical in their dimensions. Many Christians uncritically support the modern state of Israel because of a theological belief system called premillennial dispensationalism. Diana, Kristin, and Jemar dig into the history, the culture and the implications of this ideology. They also discuss ongoing ICE human rights abuses and the surprising projected victory of Zohran Mamdani as the Democratic Party nominee for mayor of New York City. Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.bsky.social https://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky.social https://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerbass.bsky.social https://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones.bsky.social Follow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.com Robert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.net Diana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.com Kristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.com Jemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com - URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS04r6y7fXU [Music]Welcome to the convocation unscripted,where religion, culture, and politicsintersect in real time. I'm one of yourhosts for this episode, Jamar Tisby,joined as always by Diana Butler Bass.Hey, Jamar, and Kristen Dum.Hey, Jamar,lovely to see you. Good to see you aswell. And we are missing Robbie Jones.But the good news is this will be ahistory-heavy episode with threehistorians on here. Uh, normally we havea rabbi here as our resident sociologist.We explore how religion shapes America'spast and present. But there's a twist.We pick a topic; we don't know exactlywhat's coming. No prep, no scripts, justraw, unfiltered conversation. That's whywe call it the convocation unscripted. And this episode is officially insession. Well, you know, one of ourconversations behind the scenes isalways how long do we keep this going.Are there certain time markers oranything? And we go back to the originstory of, yes, it was about us connectingand enjoying the connection, but alsotrying to interpret the times andcurrent events as they came, trying toMentioned in our retreat, and with thevolume and significance of currentevents continually happening, it lookslike we've still got a lot to talk aboutweek to week. So, as we begin, um, theUnited States, or we should say Trumpand his administration, or regime as Ilike to call it, have insertedthemselves in yet another conflict inthe Middle East. This time with Iran,following Israel's lead of bombingsupposed nuclear sites in Iran. Uh, theUS did as well with a B-52 bombing, anduh, now Trump is insisting there's aceasefire in place, but it's brought upall kinds of issues, not justgeopolitically or in internationalrelations, but also theologically. Diana, you wrote about this. Yeah. So didyou, Jamar. Um, I think our two pieces onSubstack published within an hour ofeach other.Great minds.That's right. And uh, both of them gotpicked up by the wonderful historian, uh,Ruth Ben Giat and her fabulous newsletteron authoritarianism,because we both made the same point thattheology matters to this. And I wasreally struck in some ways by my ownMy reaction, as soon as I heard the news,was that there was some part of me that went backto teenage Diana, thinking about theend times, and I wished we had all been ready. I remember how we would sit around our dorms atnight at the evangelical college Iattended and read the signs of the times.Since I was in college in the mid-to late 70s, much of thediscussion about the signs of the timesinvolved oil fields, Israel, andIran. So there he was, bombing Iran.And Diana was hearing the strains of LarryNorman singing "I Wish We’d All BeenReady," and thinking about prophecy. Thatjust reminded me howprofoundly entwined this administrationis with what I want to call aframeworkof dispensationalism. I think that it’s not 40years ago. So the kinds of wayswe're seeing Trump, evangelical MAGApeople talk about the end times aresomewhat different than then. Um, stillthe framework is there. This idea thattime and history are divided into periodsof these covenants that God makeswith human beings, and that however youargue about things like the rapture andWhether the great judgment will takeplace before or after the battle ofArmageddon is a question I mean; it’s just all kindsof details you could get into. Despite those details,all those evangelicals, the ones whobelieve in the seven mountains mandateandprobably a good number of them that arein even the theonomy and theomist andreconstruction camps believe that insome way we’re in the final covenantwith God. They believe that the end times are insome way, shape, or form upon us,and that it is their job to bring societyinto conformity with what they think arethe biblical expectations for the church,so that these last times can bewrapped up. Eventually, Jesuswill return and the kingdom of God willbe known in its fullness here onearth. And so to neglect thatapocalypticunderpinningis negligenton the part of the media.Just real quick, I want to get toChris. A journalist was asking me, sodo you think religion is part of this? The story, and I just said to him, religion isalways part of the story. So yes,Kristen, I'm curious if you came upin that milieu, like high school or college,or was that in the era at all?Totally. Totally not.Not premillennial, notpostmillennial. We were allmillennialists. We didn't even talkabout that stuff. It was a wholedifferent thing. Not my tradition, notmy people at all. And so Iactually learned about dispensationalismthrough this little book, Fundamentalismin American Culture, which I just happento have on my desk right now. Shout outto my, you know, Diane and I, we bothhad George Marson as our adviser. Um,and you know, this probably looksfamiliar, right? These are the kinds ofcharts that you were kind of alluding to,the complexity here, right? So likethis was all new to me. I get it,right? If you're not frominside those spaces, this is, it is likea foreign language. However, as these teachings have evolved,they have taken root, and so some peoplehave this like all the particularities,and they could, you know, rattle off. You know, pre-trib or post-trib,premillennial, like all the things. But alot of other people have just kind ofabsorbed this second hand. And so, youknow, you’ve got to be pro-Israel. Maybenot even exactly. You don’t even knowexactly why. Or when you’re asked, Ithink Diana, no, dear, you wrote thisreally great piece too on, um, TuckerCarlson and Mike Huckabee, and you know,asked, "So, so what is it? Explain to me thebiblical?" It’s like, uh, uh, like, youknow, it’s not straightforward. It’sreally not straightforward. I’d love tohave you talk more about thatin just a minute, Jamar, but right a lot of, uh, American evangelicalshave just kind of taken it insecondhand. And I had a student thispast year, uh, uh, write, uh, in a researchcourse I taught on Americanevangelicalism write a paper on thetreatment of Israel and Palestine in thepages of Christianity Today from itsfounding up to the present. What aninteresting project. Very interesting.It was illuminating in that itwasn’t exactly what you would haveanticipated. Certainly in the last 20years or so, there was a lot of coverage. On Christians in Palestine. Uh, andnow that has, you know, you're nothearing much about ChristianPalestinians these days, uh, with theongoing war. Um, but another interestingthing that she observed, which I thinkwill be of no surprise to the two of you,was the tendency for reporters to becovering kind of current events in theMiddle East, but using biblical nameplaces, uh, in place of theiractual current, you know,geopolitical labels. And so there waslike this biblical imaginationthat was being imposed on current eventsvery subtly but very effectively fortheir audience, who you know knows theirBible stories. Um, but yeah, Jamar, youhad a really great piece, too. And, uh, really helpful. And I'll just sayI know a number of journalists, uh,listen to this podcast and I know a lotof journalists have a hard time feelingtheir way around especially an issuethis complicated. Uh, so absolutely, Dianaand Jamar, um, check out their substacks.It's really interesting, as you say,Kristen, this stuff is kind of just inthe air, in the atmosphere ofevangelicalism. Writ large. Um, I remember in youthgroup, we weren’t necessarily steeped inpremillennial dispensationalism,but we were steeped in the Left Behindseries. So, this is the 1990s and 2000s. Thiswas a prime time youth group for me. Andso we would joke about the mark ofthe beast on your forehead or your hand.We would talk about our Apachehelicopters, the dragonflies, or thebeasts of the air that Revelationtalks about. We would talk about theantichrist and what actual literalfigure it might be. So it is one ofthose things where religion isn’tevery story, but it kind of gets sneaky because you don’t necessarily use allthe labels. So you don’t have highschoolers in youth group walking aroundsaying, “I’m a premillennialdispensationalist and this is how Iinterpret the book of Revelation orother passages having to do with Israelor the end times.” That’s not what’shappening. But what is happening isthey’re reading the books. They’rewatching the movies. They’re listeningto some biblical interpretation. I did awhat sparked it for me. Ted Cruz, wefind ourselves in strange company. Sometimes, because the interview Ted Cruzwas being interviewed by Tucker Carlson,and none other than Tucker Carlsonwas holding his feet to the fire, saying,"You say we need to support Israel."This is exactly what Ted Cruz says. Hesaid, "The Bible says that God blessesthose who bless Israel. If you wantGod's blessing, you have to supportIsrael." And then Tucker Carlson justkept pressing him on it, like, "Where isthis in the Bible?" He couldn't say. Whyis this? How does this connect to U.S. international policy? He couldn't say,couldn't say. Um, and so there's multiplelayers here. Number one, these folks, alot of folks' theology is a mile wide andan inch deep. You only have to go toquestion number two or three to see justhow shallow their understanding is, tothe point where Ted Cruz couldn't evencite that what he's talking about isGenesis 12:3,Yahweh speaking to Abram, saying, "Um, thosewho bless you will be blessed; those whocurse you will be cursed." This is in thecontext of God blessing him withdescendants and growing, uh, the whatwould become Israel. And so, uh, hecouldn't name that; he couldn't name that. Context, nor could he attach it toU.S.-Israel foreign relations. But thenit's this also idea of a kind ofliteral interpretation of biblicalprophecy. One of the fundamental issues isinterpreting Israel of the Hebrew Biblewith the modern state of Israelestablished in 1948 and saying that, well,because the Bible says blessings andcurses and all that, and it uses the sameword Israel, well, then the UnitedStates, as a good Christian nation,supposedly must support Israel in itspolitical and military aspirations. So that's that. Remember whenthey moved the U.S. embassy from TelAviv to Jerusalem? Diana, you wroteabout that when it happened. Now it'sthe last thing I'll say becausethere's so much to discuss. It's notjust evangelicals. This has really strongsupport and is spread through Pentecostal andcharismatic traditions as well. And soagain, religion is part of every story,but you won't see it if you're not alittle bit conversant. You know, that's one of the piecesthat, Jamar, is interesting to me, andI'm sure that Kristen is probablyasking herself these questions, too. That chart that she held up, Idid go to a church when I was ateenager with that chart hanging onthe walls around the church, not in thesanctuary, but in the hall to thesanctuary in the adult education classrooms. That chart is very familiar to me. Wewould study it, and I went to the churchthat I attended as a teenager. All ofthe pastors at the church were graduatesof Dallas Theological Seminary, which isthe seminary in the United States thatin the 1970s was the primarytheological institution teaching thatchurch. So I knew it backwards andforwards. What I also knew is thatpeople in our church who weredie-hard, we liked callingourselves evangelicals, but we wereright on that line betweenfundamentalism and evangelicalism.Those folks, we didn't likePentecostals.And so, you know, we would look atPentecostals and say they don'treally understand this. For us,it was much more of a sort ofcovenantal. Almost a kind of what I would call a softCalvinistinterpretation of the unfolding of history.And so, you know, it took a while forthe transmission of these ideas to makeit from this origin place of this verykind of soft Calvinist covenantaltheology over into Pentecostalism.And that was happening when you, I think,were first encountering all of this.And it was happening through largely cultural transmission. So it wasn't really happening because of the chartshanging in churches. It was happening because Pentecostals werewatching those same movies you were.Yeah. One of the other ones we shouldmention is how Lindsay's "Late GreatPlanet Earth." Uh, huge, huge, huge. Thatwas one of the bestselling books of the1970s, right? Along with, um, "Chariots ofGod," the "Gods."I once wrote an essay comparing "Chariotsof Gods,""Chariots of the Gods," which is theancient alien theory to "The Late GreatPlanet Earth." That was one of the mostfun things I've ever written. Well, and as you mentioned, the Lehei books,right? The, um, "Left Behind" series,Right? I read some of those. Millions. Yeah. Now I read that. Yes. Yeah. We’retalking again, like I don’t think peoplefrom outside the subcultureappreciate when we say like everybodywas reading it. We’re talking about tensof millions of people reading thesebooks, reading these novels. And thencontext matters, right? So when I readone or two of the Left Behind series, Iread it as a work of pure fiction. Andcoming from a religious space where Iknew that was not us, right? We did nothave the posters hanging in our hallwaysin our church. Not at all. So I read itas a work of fiction. That is not how itwas read by probably the majority ofreaders, right? Who are reading this forspiritual insight, often reading it aspart of their youth group, right? So you’re receiving it as God’sword, God’s truth, God’s guidance. Soagain, I don’t think people from outsidethese spaces can fully comprehendjust how pervasive this teaching hasbeen and how deeply rooted. And then itshapes your kind of orientation. I Iwill say that the most influential bookthat I read as a young Christian, right,growing up in a somewhat isolatedSpace, so definitely not ground zero,evangelicalismwas a pro-Zionistnovel that was sold at Christianbookstores called Vienna Prelude,by Bod Sain, I think is how youpronounce the name. You can lookit up. And that was very popular. So in the kind of Christian romance genre,it was about a violinist, a Jewishviolinist and the Zionist messages in therethat looking back I can see very much shaped myunderstanding of the history of therelationship between Christianity andJudaism and the state of Israel.I read it as a work of fiction, and yet youknow it was one of the first books Ikind of read on these issues because itwas a work of fiction and so powerful.The theological shaping formation that happens in thepopular culture spaces. Yeah, thinkingabout the Zionist piece wasCarrie Ten Boom's bookingplace, and that's because I was just inAmsterdam and got on an elevator.There was a guy who I absolutely knowwas an evangelical pastor and his wife. Imean I can just spot folks. And I knew it as soon as I saw them.But then I looked down and they werecarrying a bag that had come from thebookstore at the Corey Ten Boomsite. And that got me thinkingabout all of that. That was also amulti-millioncopy bestseller at the same time thatHal Lindsey's "The Late GreatPlanet Earth" was a bestseller. So, it wasa kind of a double dose that the babyboomers who were teenagers in the 70sgot of raw dispensationalismplus Christian Zionismthrough Corey Ten Boom, and thatjust created this very explosive, I think, political pro-Israel movement thatPentecostals and other groups ofProtestants who move into MAGA will alleventually embrace. So, quick shout outbefore I turn it over to you, Jamar,to Corey Ten Boom's "The Hiding Place." I wasjust editing my chapter where Idiscussed that in my next book, "Live,Laugh, Love." And all I will tell youis that all is not as it appearswhen it comes to Corey Ten Boom and herrole in Christian publishing. There ismore to that story, and it isfascinating. A little over a year, you can, uh, readwhat I have to say on that.Excited! Oh, such a good teaser. Um,so Iy'all will appreciate this as historians,and you know some of the story here wentback and looked at some of the originsof what we're calling premillennialdispensationalism. And of course, thatstarts to come to prominence, uh, throughsome folks in the 19th century, uh,especially, um, John Nelson Darby, and theneven more prominently in terms of itsspread, Cyrus I. Scofield and the ScofieldReference Bible. So I was doing a littleresearch on that, and the Scofield Biblewas published by Oxford UNUniversity Press first in 1909, um, and then again a revised version in1917. This was one of the first Biblesthat had commentary embedded within theBible, so you didn't have to go to aseparate book or a separate set ofcommentaries to get some statements onthe scripture. It is also one of the firstthat had, uh, biblical references. So ifyou know, um, in Luke chapter 4, when Jesusunrolls the scroll, there's a crossreference there to Isaiah 61. So it'scommonplace now, but in the earlyIn the 1900s, it was new, and so that wasone of the reasons why it was sopopular. I think I read that to date, 80million copies of the Scofield Biblehave been distributed over its lifetime. So again, this is how widespread andprevalent it is. The appeal wasprecisely because of theseinterpretations. I geekedout, went to the Internet Archive,looked up the actual Scofield Bible,1917 version, and read some of thefootnotes. One of them is forRevelation20. I saw an angel come down fromheaven having the key of the bottomlesspit and a great chain in his hand. Helaid hold on the dragon, that old serpent,which is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousandyears. That's the millennium, thethousand years, right? But then there’sa reference to that which talks aboutArmageddon, which connects to the ancient hill and valley inMegiddo, west of the Jordan in the plainof Jezreel, appointed as the place forthe beginning of the great battle inwhich the Lord, at his coming in glory,will deliver the Jewish remnant besieged. By the Gentile world powers under thebeast and false prophet goes on and onand on. So you can imagine how peoplejust ate up this interpretation. Andsince it’s embedded within the Bible ascommentary, it seems like, well, this isholy, inspired, divine, infallible,prophetic, all of that stuff. And that,you know, you trace the path andit leads tothis uncriticalsupport of the modern state of Israel. Because what people think is happeningis if, one, Israel has to becomeascendant again. There has to be a massreturn of the Jewish people to the stateof Israel. It has to become—they have torebuild the temple. Um, it has to becomea prominent geopolitical power again.And that will herald the return of Jesusand the final judgment. And soChristians who believe this line ofthinkingthink that by supporting Israel they arehastening the day of Christ,whichfor Christians is like the best thingever, although it’s a fearful andterrifying day, as the Bible puts it,as well. So I mean that’s how it leadsto concrete real-world geopoliticalManifestations. It is connected toreligion at large, Christianity, and thisparticular tradition ofdispensationalism. And it's really important to underscorewhat you just said, Jamar, becausesupport for the Jews is not becauseit's a good thing for Christians andJews to have inner religious relationsand understand one another's worldviewsand theologies and cooperate together onmaking world peace. That's not it atall. It's instrumentalism;that is, there are two reasonswhy the people in this worldviewsupportwhat they think is supporting the Jews,which is, you know, they’re really justsupporting the government of Israel, asit were. Um, but one is because they wanta blessing. It’s like, you know, that’snot why I feed hungry people, because Iwant to go to heaven. I feed hungrypeople because hungry people are hungryand it’s a good thing to do, and so youknow, but so that’s the first thing; it’san instrument towards a Christian end. And then the second thing is this ideathat if the Jews are returned to theirnative homeland, as it were, um and theWhen the temple is rebuilt and all these thingshappen, then Jesus is going to comeagain. So, I mean, what does that careabout the Jews? All it cares about isthat they go back to a place that wasmeant, that that's talked about in theBible, and that they all convert toChristianity, and that's going to bringJesus back so that evangelicals all getto be raptured and don't have to go through thetribulation. And it's like, that's notvery nice. I mean, I think there's asort of a fundamental anti-Semitism atthe base of both Christian Zionism anddispensationalism,because it's just simply usingthe Hebrew people, the biblical Jews,as a means towards a Christian end. And there's really nointerreligious dialogue that's going toput up with that for about five minutes. Yeah, you know, this is something I knowwe spent a lot of time this week talkingto various journalists, and this issomething I was describing as well thatyou know it's very complicated if you'rejust new to this. But you know theidea that Christian Zionismis not incompatible with anti-Semitismand, which isn't to say. You kind of go in the direction that you’regoing, Diana. And a case could be madethat Christian Zionism, like it kind ofby definition, right, it certainly is, uh,instrumentalist and has a placefor, you know, Jews — a role to play — whichis not necessarily, you know, respectingand, um, you know, kind of supporting ontheir own terms. But also, like in thesespaces, as I’m watching,some of the interesting divides rightnow are inside the Christian right. Thereare, um, those who are pro-Zionistandnot overtly anti-Semitic. And there are those who are now masks offanti-Semitic, right? I’m talking aboutsome of these right-wing spaces, um,Christian nationalist spaces, right?There’s a division right now as themasks are coming off and some people arelike, "Whoa, that’s not, wait, I’m not youknow, anti-Jew on that level," like, like,horrifyinglytextbook anti-Semitism.And right, but they were part of amovement unbeknownst to them that iscertainly a representative strand. So again, for thosekind of coming from the outside, it’sComplicated Christian Zionism can existwith anti-Semitism. Now, I also know someZionists who I would not put in thatcategory, who are very pro-Israel,pro-Jewish, pro all of these things. Um,but it's not uniform, right? Andthere is a lot of struggle inside theright-wing spaces right now in figuringout, you know, which is going to be kindof the dominant position. So, as we’re number one, I think this isan argument for all of us as people offaith to be very critical consumers ofwhat we’re hearing, whether from thepulpit or sort of pop culture,Christianity, the books that arepopular, the music that the influencersthat are popular. Um, everything has ahistory. The particular forms ofdispensationalism we’re talking aboutkind of go back to the middle of the19th century. They’re not like comingdown from heaven like the TenCommandments or anything. And so whenyou look back at that past, when you’rea critical consumer of Christian cultureand theology, then you will find that alot of people get defensive andsay, "Well, no, that’s just the Bible.That’s just what we believe." But peelBack the layers a little bit, right? Let's use the brains Godgave us and the ability to think andreason that God gave us and apply thatto what we're believing. So that's kindof writ large, but alsoit's still happening where these harmfulideologies and theologies are impactingreal-world policy. And Diana, youmentioned that as all of this stuff isgoing on between the US and Israel andnow Iran, there's stillterrible human rights abuses beingperpetrated at home in places likeCalifornia. Yeah. Well, I think it's I think that aswe end the discussion about premillennialism,I just want to throw two final little bits into the mix.Um, and you know, one is thatthis whole thing about Israel andTrump putting the embassy in Jerusalemand now bombing Iran has alsoinhibited any kind of moral discussionabout Gaza.That's been one of the real-worldpolitical results of all of this. Um, anduh, the other one is I am increasinglyfascinated about the ties betweendispensational premillennialism in itsClassical form and, uh, race. One of the things that really struck methis week when I was looking for anillustration for my newsletter, I wentonline to get an image of the Battle ofArmageddon: Jesus, warrior Jesus,returning at the Battle of Armageddon. Ithink that's what I Googled. And, um,every single piece of artwork was of thewhitest, meanest-looking Jesus you haveever seen in your entire life on a whitehorse surrounded by an army of whitepeople, all dressed in white. And thenyou look at the base where the army thatis standing against God is,and their color is not terriblydistinctive; they're all kind ofstanding in the shadows or flames arekind of obscuring their racial featuresor whatever it is. And I went, "Man,I've never seen so many mean white Jesuses in my entire life." And so thatreally got me asking that other questiontoo abouthow this has affected the policyimplications around race, um, over sort ofthe longer arc of American history. Um,soand, um, yeah, as I'm sure weall know is that John Nelson Darby'sWork became popular in the United Statesafter the Civil War, when peoplewere thinking about all that had justhappened with loss and suffering, andalso the development of Jim Crow. Yes,I mean, context is everything, right? So part of thedispensational beliefs arose intimes when people were trying to makesense of what's happening in the world. So in the United States, the Civil Warremains the bloodiest war, withthe highest casualties that the US hasever been involved in. And it was in thewake of that that John Nelson Darbycame to the United States. He'sAnglo-Irish. He comes to the UnitedStates, and it's in this context of whathappened to our country and, inparticular, what happened to the whiteman's country, right? A lot ofthe Scofield publishes his revisionright in the shadow of World War I, wherewe'd never seen global war on thisscale before. People would say, "Well,is this the Armageddon?Is this the sign of the end times?" Andso it very much has to do, and that'simmediately leading into all of thisanti-immigration. Uh, policy in the 1920s, right? So yeah,it's all wrapped up in this idea ofwho's truly Christian, who's trulyAmerican. And I would say someof that goes into immigration stancestoday and how, quote unquote, protectingborders is also part of maintaining aChristian country and protecting againstcultural degradationso-called from un-American forces orothers who almost invariably happento be black or brown people or othercategories of LGBTQ, progressive,whatever it might be. So, I could jumpin sticking with the history here sinceRobbie's not here. We can spend evenmore time. Um, you're absolutely right,Jamar, and let's place this in itshistorical context. And one thing wehaven't made clear is thatdispensationalismbecomes one of the primary strands ofthe movement that we callfundamentalism.Right? Dispensationalismwith kind of old school Presbyterianism,for a nice, you know, rigid doctrine andholiness Christianity, with itsemphasis on purity—right, purity, purity—You're exactly right, functioning aroundsexual purity and racial purity. I mean,if you look at the history of 20thcentury fundamentalism and conservativeevangelicalism, right? You can just seethese themes. What we do ashistorians is, you know, ultimately at the endof the day. Now, Diane is a little bitdifferent. You do a lot ofpreaching. I guess Jamar, you do somepreaching too. Um, but, you know, we'renot saying this is God's truth, right? Or when we do, we want to try to, youknow, bracket that as I understandscriptures, as I see. But what wecan do powerfully as historians is showthe development of what people perceiveto be biblical truth. Right? Thingschanged over time. Uh, you know, Scofieldhimself, I was just reading this greatquote from him again and working on thenext book, um, about in the late 19thcentury. Uh, he was, he said, um, that morehas been written—this was at the veryend of the 19th century—on the HolySpirit in the last two decades than inthe entire swath of Christian history.Right? And that is just stunning inthat writing on the Holy Spirit,right? That is reflected in the holiness. The movement and the holinessmovement branches off into variousstrands, including Pentecostalism,right? And so, again in church history,there's a lot going on there. However,what's crucial is the change overtime, right? How Christians came toperceive the work of God, how Christianscame to perceive the act of being abeliever, faithfulness, and what it means tobe a Christian actually changeddramatically in the second half of the19th century. And yet, in anygiven moment, whatever any Christianperceives to be true is considered to becapital T true and timelessly true. One thing that we historians do is say,"Actually, let me show you," right? At the endof the day, you can't say whether it'scapital T true or not, but we cancertainly say this was not timeless, andthis is not the way Christians haveinterpreted the scriptures since thebeginning of time, right? And there'spower in that, because then thatraises questions: why this interpretationand why now, and what is it doing?It seems to me that white Jesus on thewhite horse with the white army makesjust an extraordinary amount of sense. With the coming of dispensationalism.I was in a conversation thisweek with someone who was asking me alot of questions about this because ofthe piece that I’d written. And Isaid, "Well, did you see theimage that I put up with the white Jesuson the white horse?" And the person said,"Yeah, that ain't going to be a black orbrown Jesus." And I said, "Nope, it sureisn't." And then my conversation partnersaid, "If black or brown Jesus came likethat, they'd deport him."There you have it. And that actually is the sort of the link, I think, between, you know,this kind of story and the religious dimensionsthat find themselves in these other stories. Andyou know I don't want to get intotrying to figure out dispensationalismvis-a-vis what's going on with immigrationpolicy right now but I think we justneed to keep it front and center thatwhat is going on right now especially inLos Angeles where they've decided tomake a showcase of their massivedeportations that it is a moral in every possibleway. Months and months ago, all of us, Robbieincluded, we talked about, "What's yourred line? What happens if they cross over somethingthat they absolutely shouldn't be doing?"Well, every single hour theyare crossing over every red line thathas ever been set down about the waythat we are supposed to treat oneanother, about the laws of this nation,and just human humanity, period. Um, I just read a story about a couple;I believe they're from Southern California.Pretty sure they're all running together now.Uh, but, yeah, they're from SouthernCalifornia. The husband is a Marine.Um, ethnic background unknown. He lookedlike kind of a white guy born inSouthern California, in the story. Um, hehis wife was Mexican. Uh, they'vebeen married for a number of years, fiveyears I believe, and they have two kids.She was in an ICE office, workingon her immigration papers because shehas a green card. She is a green cardholder and she's trying to get hercitizenship. Um, the ICE officersseparated them and came out of the room. A wedding ring was given to him and he said, "Uh, we’retaking your wife away." And uh, the sonis two and the daughter is, I believe, threemonths and was still nursing. And he andthe guy is a Marine. Uh, and he’s going"Wait a second." Uh, he did not say "this isnot what I voted for," but it was kind ofa little bit clear in the story that hemight have been a Trump voter. He said,"Uh, Trump said all they’re going to do istake away the criminals." I thoughtthis is one of the ways you become acitizen, by serving your country. And you know, my wife, shesupported my service. She supportedeverything that I’ve ever done. Andwe're a military family. And um, he wasjust... I don’t think he knows exactlywhere his wife is right now. The storydid not indicate that he had yet seenher. Although they do have a lawyer andI think the lawyer may be aware of whereshe is and just didn’t mention it inthis story. And if you go online,you see inhumane stories like this everysingle hour on every social media site. You know, some of them might be inventedto just sort of stir up the troops.I’m pretty careful about the ones that Irepost, but the ones that are definitelyReal stories are absolutely horrifying,and we don't need any theologicaljustification to say that this is notright, and they have crossed lines —red and every other color too. And sofor me, I've been asking myself thequestion: well, now what? Yeah, Iagree, Diana. I am trying to, um, embedthe language that these are abductions. Uh, when you have people who are masked,who refuse to identify themselves, whohave unmarked vehicles, literallysnatching and grabbing people off thestreets, taking them to an undisclosedlocation, refusing to identify anycharges or anything like that, that's anabduction by any other name. And justbecause they say it's ICE, just becausethey say these, we have no proof.And there's a real negative history inthe US of masked vigilantes doing whatthey do, um, under anonymity and forspecious reasons often connected torace. These are abductions. And we just had a Supreme Court ruling wherethe conservative justices ruled 63 thatthe Trump regime couldtake these folks who have been abductedand ship them to different countries. IThinking in the specific ruling, it was the nation of Sudan where they'renot from. So, I have seen online thechatter that these can't be classifiedas deportations because you're notsending them back to their home country. This is just, this is justincarceration. This is just detention.And that, to me, is a glaring red light.And a lot of people have said thatTrump's actions in Irancertainly his own, uh,sort of vicissitudes as a narcissisticmegalomaniac. I don’t know how todescribe him, but also because just theweek prior, he’d had that dismal paradein Washington D.C. that people made fun of,and there was this massive turnout forthe "No Kings" protests. So, a way ofdeflecting attention from terribledomestic policy and the blowback and thebacklash from that, as well. Hugelyimportant, there, right? I, um, I wasreading something by Timothy Snyder, um,a reminder that, yes, you know, foreignpolicy of this sort is always alsoabout domestic politics, right? And weknow what's been going on here. Andcan we just pause for a moment? We got into the dispensationalism and theReligious framing, but can we just sayhow stunning the entire kind of bombingof Iran episode was from start to, well,I guess we're not even finished yet. Thelies, the, um, you know, not involvingCongress, um, not even notifying Democratsin Congress, andclaiming that the mission was accomplishedessentially, and no, they did not. Youknow, maybe delayed the nuclear program for a few months. Best casescenario at what cost, right? Massivecost and very little context about Trumppulling out of the agreement with Iranthat Obama had established to preventthe development of nuclear weapons, whichby all verified accounts that I haveread was working at the time. Trumpdestroys that for reasons we can onlyimagine, uh, and then wants tobe the hero by pretending to save theday when he doesn't. And this is justagain, as a historian, just pause here atthe appreciate this catastrophicforeign policy. It's not, I mean, it's noteven policy. Whatever it is, chaosunprecedented. And here we are, kind of moving on, um,next day is going to bring anothernew horror. It just feels likeIn my lifetime, utterly unprecedented. This is one of the things I was mostdreading about the Trump presidency:the mental and emotional exhaustion fromconstant chaos. You want boringpoliticians because it means they’ve gottheir heads down, doing their jobs.Whether you agree or disagree with theirpolicies, they’re not trying to burn itdown. But this is absurd. I mean, it’swreaking havoc on us. Not justpolitically, not just as a democracy,but as human beings who constantly haveto keep up, not just with new stuff, butnew, fresh horrors, human rights abuses,and inhumanity, um, all of those things. Andthat was one of the things I was justmost dreading when we found the results in November. It was just like, here we goagain, where you’re almost just drawn to the newsbecause it’s never-endingfresh hell that you don’t want to payattention to. You’ve got to modulate and moderate, but atthe same time, it’s significant. It has human impact.There’s a certainlevel of responsibility that we have tohave as responsible participants inthis democracy. But oh my goodness, it’sexhausting. Sorry, Diana, what were youWhat is going to be said? Oh, I was just joiningthe chorus. Um, and thatmy note would beit's always been part of the intention. We all said that at the beginning whenwe pointed out that Russ VA bought way backat the beginning, saying that the planwas to traumatize people. And that hasbeen our journey in these last months.This sea of trauma in which everysingle day, maybe even every single hour,they create new moral injuryto all of us. And that's what we're experiencing.We're experiencing moral injury on amassive scale. And that's going to bevery difficult to get out of. And it'sdoing things to us that we don't evenbegin to know. And I think one of the waysthat I try tois helpful for me to remember thatthese are their intentions — to hurtus, to wound us, to injure us so that wecan't have a decent moral response. So that we'll actually be transformed intomoral people — that we aren't amoral orimmoral or uncaring people. So Ihold that in mind. Um, and the otherthing I try to do in order to step asidefrom it all, um, is toRemember to look for all of the links; it'snot just one bomb of moralinjury or this bomb of moral injury, butthings are really deeply connected. Andso here we are. We're talking about thiswacky subject of Christian Zionism andpremillennialism and then Iran andimmigration. These things are tiedtogether. And I was really struck thisafternoon by a tie. Once in a whilethey'll confess it on social media. I saw two confessions of where themoral injury is intended to be directedright now. One was from StevenMiller, who said, in response to theelection of Zoran Mandami as theDemocratic candidate for mayor of NewYork in the primary yesterday, "this is what happens when you allowimmigrants into your country."This loosely means a Muslim who isalso a socialist. Mandami is ademocratic socialist in the same waythat Bernie Sanders or AlexandriaOcasio-Cortez is. It's a legitimate sortof part, a very liberal part of theDemocratic Party. The other piece is that several MAGAorganizations now are calling forMandami to be denaturalized. And deported. And so there it was, rightthere in those two sorts of tweets. I saw them on Blue Sky posts orskets or whatever you want to call them.Um, what the intent of all this moralinjury is, is to damage us, um, through allthese interlocking events, to hate ourneighborand to refuse to standfor a different and inclusive visionof what America should be. And we’reconnected. I just have to say, Diana, soI, you know, did not grow up in thedispensationalist spaces at all. Um, soI always thought that all of the,you know, the rapture and the propheciesand all the details that just feltreally cartoonish to me. I confess thatin recent months, I have felt, you know,like kind of the little memory jogged ofsome of the things: the mark of the beast, the antichrist, all of thethings that were foretold. And I’m like,my goodness, guys. Like, if you’relooking for it,I, you know, like we’ve got allthe over-the-top Christiannationalist, um, golden Trump statues thatpeople are figuratively, if not alsoliterally bowing down to, kissing theRing. All of this. I'm like, doesn'tthis kind of check a lot ofboxes here? And yet, you're the onesrushing to this. I don't know. It justseems really stunning to me. Becauseif I were into that kind of stuff, Iwould look a littlecloser to home, right? They'relooking on the wrong side here. They need to look at their politicalsavior here. Um, absolutely.And I'm glad you mentioned ZoranMdani. It's just we've been talking alot about where the Democrats are.What are they doing? Well, here's anexample. He's only 33 years old. It'skind of mindboggling. I'm thinkingabout what I was doing at 33 and how far I wouldhave been from any mindset or skillset of running for mayor of the largestcity in the country, but he ran on anunabashedly progressive platform.His slogan was "Afford to live,afford to dream." So it's a differentversion of economic populism, if you will,than Trump and MAGA. But all he didwas touch on the real pain points ofsky-high rents in New York City.You can't have a regular 40-hour a week job. And afford to live. You've got to dosomething extraordinary or cut back onvery basic food, housing, and shelter—kindof things. And he's running on, youknow, uh, free city buses and justregular everyday kitchen tablebread-and-butter issues. He doesn't backdown. He doesn’t back down to bad faithattempts to mischaracterize him, um,demonize him because of his religion,skin color, country of origin, or any ofthat. He takes it head-on, and it worked. It worked in a city like New York City.I dare say it would work elsewhere aswell. And it's just... And now New YorkCity ranked-choice voting. This is thefirst round of counts. There are going tobe other rounds, but Andrew Cuomo, whowas a former governor—disgraced,right, but also came back and hadthe establishment 100% name recognition,major endorsements—people like BillClinton and the old sort of Democraticestablishment,buckets of money. Michael Bloombergcontributed, and this dude was pulling,Manhattan at the beginning of the campaign waspulling at 1%.And came roaring through with theseMedia strategy has just mastered new mediaon a level that we wish the Democraticestablishment would even try to, right? Um, and this is whathappened. And so I just, whether oneagrees with his policies or not, it is adifferent vision of what aDemocrat can be and stand for, and howthey can run a campaign. So for thatalone, I think it's significant andsomething we should be paying attentionto. It's a gorgeous reminder of ourhumanity. I mean, I think that it standsin such stark contrast to what we'vebeen talking about, uh, because of what heembodies and then also what hewas saying, that we can be fullyhuman. You can have a decent moral life.You can have a good life, and you don'thave to sacrifice yourself tobillionaires or to racism or any ofthese other things in order for you toget ahead. We can all move aheadtogether. And that is, I mean, who doesn't? I mean, I know there are peoplein America who don't like that, but boy,I'm on that bus.I'm on that bus.I think Jesus is on that bus,certainly more than any alternative. We've seen. Um, so yeah, look, there'salways something new happening.We hope we're able to contextualizeit a bit or at least be frustratedtogether. Um, so that's what we're herefor. We thank you so much, and on behalfof me and my co-hosts, uh, thank you forjoining this episode of the ConvocationUnscripted. Y'all, you are missing outif you're not subscribed to our Substackconvocation.As well as our individual Substackswhere we talk about things likepremillennial dispensationalism andinternational policy. So, be sure tosubscribe to that, spread the word, andwe'll see you soon at the nextconvocation.[Music], Israel, Iran, and End Times Prophecy, The Convocation Unscripted, 01jyz53apqwyb7hq9xbfmw1r0a.